Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Incap (2nd nomination)

Incap

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Incap (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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It was deleted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Incap and reuploaded again. I didn't see it when first edited it a few weeks ago. Also I found it was declined at AfC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Incap_Corporation and it's still in draft Morpho achilles (talk) 08:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Keep. If you compare the current live article and the one in drafts you'll see that they are very different. The published one has been translated from the Finnish Wikipedia article and it has many analyst reports used as a source (like HighKing and Jtbobwaysf wished in the previous deletion discussion). In the Draft version there were 49 sources of which 28 were internal to Incap. In the live version there are 38 sources, 2 of them Incap internal. Jjanhone (talk) 09:11, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Hi Jjanhone, sounds great. Can you link here to the analyst reports you believe meet NCORP criteria? Thank you. HighKing⁺⁺ 10:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    • You can see the links in the Ref section. Kauppalehti, Talouselämä, Tekniikka&Talous are Finnish magazines concentrated on business news and analysis and their content is behind paywalls. Jjanhone (talk) 10:23, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
      • E.g. this one.Jjanhone (talk) 10:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
        • I'm unable to access those articles but I can see the headline and snippet. From what I can see, most appear to be based on company announcements. Can anyone (who has access) confirm these sources meet NCORP and they're not simply "reporting" on an announcement with no "Independent Content" as per ORGIND? HighKing⁺⁺ 17:15, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
          • Cheers HighKing! How about checking the news by Yleisradio aka Finland's national public broadcasting company? As it's public broadcasting company it is not that business oriented but based on news: [1]. Let's see if I can find some active Finnish Wikipedia users, who can have access to Talouselämä. Might be difficult as we are so few in general in the English Wikipedia.Jjanhone (talk) 18:07, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
            • • Looking at the news headlines on that website only shows articles based on company announcements and PR (e.g. Layoffs, ownership announcements, financial announcements, etc). None pass ORGIND. HighKing⁺⁺ 18:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
            • Ping Finnusertop, Taavi, Apalsola, Veeti_Davidsson do you have access to Talouselämä/some other Finnish media talking about Incap? Jjanhone (talk) 18:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies and Finland. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:03, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I see the article has a live articles in Finnish and French wp versions. So we are talking about deleting the English translation. Most of the discussion above seems to relate to people not having access or maybe not being able to read the content. Seems to me we should hold off on delete and maybe put the Finish version to AFD first, and see if it passes (Finnish people and/or people that can read the language will be much more qualified to comment). If it passes Finnish AFD, then we know that we are more dealing with a translation issue and a tag for the English article would be more suitable. Let's not get too wrapped us in thinking the EN wikipedia is the 'correct' one, and maybe defer to the other languages first. For example I have seen EN versions of a CN article to be very weak, while the CN article is robust and fully built out. The Finnish article has 38 sources (and I cant read a single one of them), but some might be decent and pass NCORP. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 01:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Well in Finnish Wikipedia "stock listed companies are usually notable" [2] and as there is so much media attention for this company there's no proper reason to start an AFD there. The article was created in 2015.Jjanhone (talk) 06:51, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I don't have perfect visibility to all the paywalled sources, but the coverage seems to be either standard announcements (e.g. [3] based on the headline) or PR pieces (e.g. [4]). I'd greatly appreciate if those proposing to keep would do something along the lines of WP:THREE, listing what they believe to be the 3-4 best sources together with descriptions of their length, depth and how independent they appear. Currently, I'm leaning delete. -Ljleppan (talk) 08:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Cheers Ljleppan! Am I free to choose the best sources or should I prefer the ones you have access to? If so, which are those? If I choose the best ones, can you point me an example about how to describe them (lenght, depth and independence)?Jjanhone (talk) 10:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Chooosing the best sources might be difficult if I dont know the criteria. E.g. you said that this is "PR content" while I saw it as a journalist interviewing a CEO, making it original content, not just a press release puff. As it's not behind a paywall I invite others to judge it too. Jjanhone (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

• OK, just to be clear. If the journalist simply repeats what the CEO said without adding any "Independent Content" (that is the journalist did not add *substantial* and *in-depth* opinion/commentary/fact checking/analysis) then that fails ORGIND. Sure, it might make it "original content" (in that those precise sequence of words may never have appeared in that particular order in the past) but unique is not the same as *independent*. Sorry for the emphasis, just trying to explain so that you should be able to understand, yourself, what "Independent Content" is. Basically, if it is information that was provided by the company (e.g. financials, PR, website, interview, quotes, etc) we exclude that content (for the purposes of establishing notability - that content can of course be used to support facts, etc, within the article). HighKing⁺⁺ 13:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Paywalled is fine, if you give a good description of what the article is about, the tone, depth etc. W/r/t the Ilta-Sanomat piece, the content is wholly uncritical, and seems like it would be sourced solely from what a company rep would tell a journalist. Basically, regurgitating a bunch of press releases with a few quotes from the CEO thrown in. Ljleppan (talk) 06:24, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I tried to find analysis of Incap (searching for Incap + analysis). Here's what I found. Jjanhone (talk) 08:37, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Arvopaperi 5th May 2022: Incap on ylisuorittunut epäsuositulla toimialalla komeasti – Asiakaspuoleen sisältyy kuitenkin sitova riski (Incap has outperformed handsomely in an unpopular industry - However, there is a binding risk on the client side). Lenght about 2,600 chars, mentions about Incap's biggest customer and how it has evolved. No sources mentioned, but the magazine is concentrated on stock companies. Contains critic.

A quote: "Incap's growth story comes with its own risks. Victron Energy, the company's largest customer, accounted for as much as 61% of its turnover last year. ... Although Incap's position as a subcontractor may be considered disadvantageous, customers do not easily change contract manufacturers. Incap's profitability comes from lower costs than its competitors."

• Talouselämä 4th May 2007. Nyt kävi kyyti kylmäksi (Now the ride got cold). It's a review of the market, aka Electronics subcontractors in Finland in 2006: Elcoteq, Perlos, Scanfil, Elektrobit, Aspocomp, Incap, Cencorp. Lenght of the article: about 7,400 chars. 8 mentions for name Incap and the part telling about the company is about 1,000 chars.

A quote is telling the journalist is having own thoughts about what Incap should do - co-operate with another company: "In recent years, Incap has made good progress. Last year, it was the only decent performer in the analysis set. Unlike most companies in the group, Incap is not Nokia-dependent, but has a diverse customer base." "Together, Scanfil and Incap could be a strong player in the small series production of demanding industrial electronics. Both have already downsized in Finland and Scanfil in Belgium." "Scanfil is undergoing a generational change. There are signs of it in Incap too."

• Kauppalehti 16 Sep 2019 Törkeästi noussut Incap jatkaa nousurallia? – Tavoitehintaa nostaneet analyytikot: "Arvostus ei täysin huomioi ketterää toimintamallia" (Will Incap, which has risen sharply, continue its upward rally? – Analysts who raised the target price: "The valuation does not fully take into account the agile operating model"). Lenght: about 3,500 chars. Two analytics from Inderes commenting the company.

A quote from the analysts: ""In our view, the current valuation of Incap does not fully reflect the competitive advantage and strong operational performance created by the company's lean and agile operating model." The analysts also say the relative discount to the share price remains "unjustifiably large"."

• The above mentions sources have not been used as ref atm. Let me tell my favorites of the current refs. Jjanhone (talk) 09:00, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
• Talouselämä 19 May 2000 Incap löysi viimein itsensä (Incap finally found itself). Length: 3,000 chars. Summarizes the history and has a critical tone.

A quote tells that the writer has opinions: "Compared to other companies in the hot sector, Incap's share price has been sleepy, except for the February technopeak. Investors' reticence is explained by the mixed-use retailer's reputation and declining earnings. Incap's focus on capital goods has not helped either." "Grittiness flourishes in the CEO's review..." "Not surprisingly, the Incap board decided in early May to relieve Frey of his duties."

• Tekniikka & Talous 19 Feb 2010 Intian ihme Incapin tapaan (Indian wonder like Incap). Lenght: 5,500 chars. Summarizes the history and tells e.g. about companies challenges.

A quote, interviewing Incap marketing manager Munipalli in India tells about the problems: "India is a land of opportunity, but there are plenty of problems too. Munipalli simplifies the dilemmas of the environment: "There are too many of us Indians, the infrastructure is all over the place and corruption is a bad problem."" Earlier in the article: "The biggest challenge is building the brand. The company is not a big player like Flextronics or Elcoteq, nor is it a small player focused on prototyping. Local customers need to be convinced of the quality of the service." Part of the history chapter, cannot say if this was taken from the website back in 2010 but I doubt: "The industry's transformation is illustrated by the multi-generational history of the trade union at Incap's now-closed Vuokatti plant. In December 1978, the people of the Sotkamo plant of the state-owned cathode-ray tube factory Valco organised themselves as electronics workers. After the fall of Valco, the activities continued at Finn-Valco, then at Valmet and, since 1983, at Elektrostep. The latter was merged into Incap Electronics in 1996. After the restructuring, what remained of the companies in many sectors in 1997 was Incap Electronics, a contract manufacturer of electronics, and Incap Furniture, a contract manufacturer of furniture. The parent company was listed on the stock exchange. Furniture manufacturing went its own way in 2002. A year ago, its entire staff was made redundant after the main shareholder Ikea stopped taking orders."

• I've posted above what I hope will assist you in determining whether sources contain "Independent Content" (as per ORGIND) or not, since you appeared to be under the impression that a report on an interview provided by the CEO was "original content" and therefore OK for establishing notability. With that in mind, the descriptions you provide of various articles above fails to identify whether or not those articles contain "Independent Content" as per WP:ORGIND. For example, is the summary of the company history generic (e.g. same as website as other articles)? What exactly is the "critical tone" - does it have critical analysis/opinion that is in-depth? Where was the information on the company challenges sourced from (e.g. financial news? announcements?). These are the details that are required to satisfy other editors that the sources meet NCORP. HighKing⁺⁺ 13:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for explaining HighKing. I wonder if my quotes (above) are helping here to get the tone of the articles. Jjanhone (talk) 16:43, 5 August 2022 (UTC)