Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories

Arbitration ruling on "pseudoscience" The Arbitration Committee has issued several rulings on guidelines for the presentation of material that might be labeled "pseudoscience": Scientific focus: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and its content on scientific and quasi-scientific topics will primarily reflect current mainstream scientific consensus. Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus may be so labeled and categorized as such without more. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

Booth Escaped

(discussion moved to Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Booth_Escaped

Theory --> Subject

I made this change for the purposes of including organizations, publications, etc, under the fringe notability section rather than just theories but I don't feel it goes far enough in clarifying my point. How do people feel about clarifying further by specifying that it includes companies, organizations, publications, products, etc? Should we include an exhaustive list or clarify in a different way? Alternatively, are there objections to the change in the first place? Sædon^talk 00:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that's appropriate. This policy should apply to whether a fringe-view-promoting organization is mentioned in other articles. However, the existence of articles on organizations promoting fringe views will still fall under the purview of WP:ORG. I've changed 'subject' to 'view' as I think that reads better and still retains the meaning, but feel free to edit as you see fit. LK (talk) 04:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I made a slight addition specifying organizations because I felt "view" has the same non-encompassing issue as "theory" or "subject." I don't think there will be any tension with WP:ORG, I would just like to clarify the scope of WP:FRINGE. How does it look now? Can it be interpreted to refer to products at this point as well or is anything further necessary? Sædon^talk 04:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I've propagated the wording to a few other places in the article. As before feel free to edit as you see fit. LK (talk) 07:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the guideline is typically used to refer to fringe subjects or views in general, so the change makes sense. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:Notability usually uses the word topic (the topic of the article, which might be a person, place, theory, philosophy, etc.) ... so perhaps we should use that word when discussing notability... "Fringe topic". Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

That sounds good too. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah - "topic" works best for me. I agree that "theory" is too overloaded with the common English meaning and the special scientific meaning. SteveBaker (talk) 18:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

• The current changes are perhaps more confusing at the moment: "Fringe views and the organizations who promote them can be considered notable enough for dedicated articles if ..." might make people conclude that if a fringe view is notable then an organization promoting them is notable. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I've made a minor modification, what do people think? IRWolfie- (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we should try to use the word 'topic' throughout the article; this should allow us to to trim down on the verbiage. LK (talk) 04:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I could live with "topic". Mangoe (talk) 05:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Same. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

• I think we might have to take it to the village pump to make this change to WP:FRINGE to ensure the consensus is with us? IRWolfie- (talk) 11:18, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I've a similarly related proposal. How about renaming the guideline from Fringe Theories, to just Fringe? IRWolfie- (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Fringe on its own is a wide term, it would include e.g. fringe theatre. Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The guideline is usually referred to by WP:FRINGE, and it has never been mistaken for fringe theatre that I have seen. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:58, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I think people understand that something that starts with WP: and is in all-caps is a shortcut to some kind of policy/guideline doc. WP:FRINGE isn't confusing - but WP:Fringe might be confusing. I wouldn't be averse to renaming it "WP:Fringe articles" or "WP:Fringe topics". SteveBaker (talk) 19:01, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

"WP:Fringe theories" tells the reader what it is about and I don't see the need for a change. I do agree that in the guidelines we should use "Fringe topics" to cover fringe theories and all the related stuff (fringe views, people and organizations). But I think if we go for "WP:Fringe articles" or whatever we are staking a claim to the word fringe that is not in common use - because we are editing on this page, "fringe" probably does mean fringe theories to us, but I don't think it will for everyone. Aarghdvaark (talk) 02:40, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

You seem to have missed that "Fringe theories" is misleading (that's what the discussion is about). The use of the phrase Fringe topic/article is already in wide use, and everyone knows what it means; I have never seen anyone confused about this. Quite frankly if someone thinks it's about fringe theatre when they click on it they are an idiot and no wording will help them. We assume some basic level of competence on wikipedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand why you think "Fringe theory" is misleading? It is in common use after all. It is the (fringe) theory that is usually the main point after all. If you talk about "Fringe article" and then "Fringe organization" why would you expect people to think of theories and not political organizations? Aarghdvaark (talk) 17:04, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Help with guidelines

I refer to this deletion discussion. I'm wondering if the people who monitor these guidelines would be inclined to expand the section on notability to include people who espouse pseudoscience and fringe theories, not just the theories themselves. It would have been useful in the aforementioned case to know whether the consensus was that astrological journals were unreliable sources for the purposes of establishing the notability of an astrologer (perhaps on the ground that they are in a sense not independent because they spring from a community of people who agree with the pseudoscience) or whether such sources are suitable. I'm sure there are other questions that could be answered about the notability of people who espouse fringe theories and pseudoscience. Apologies in advance if this has already been debated and rejected. --Batard0 (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The recent clarification proposed by Saedon already incorporated this into the guideline. "A Fringe subject (a fringe theory, organization or aspect of a fringe theory) ", maybe it needs to be made clearer still. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guidelines are byzantine almost beyond comprehension, but I don't understand how IRWolfie can change them to suit a special purpose (in this case apparently to remove the Deborah Houlding article). Suddenly, today, without discussion, WP:FRINGE theories (or subjects) covers people too.

IRWolfie's version now says: "A 'Fringe subject' is an article where a significant claim to notability revolves around the relation of the article to the fringe theory. This includes the organizations, people, concepts or aspects of a fringe theory, and the fringe theory itself." This doesn't even make sense. How can an "subject" be a "article"? How can "claim to notability" be made on the basis of its fringe status? IRWolfie tries to spread the presumed contamination from the despised theory to all related "organizations, people, concepts or aspects of the fringe theory, and the fringe theory itself." I suppose this covers all conceivable bases, unless IRWolfie wants to add something else? Is Wikipedia just collapsing in a heap of babble rules?

To me, astrology is not fringe, but even if it is, what's wrong with that? It doesn't need to be censored. There is a large gap between scientific cosmology and genetics that just happens to be currently occupied by astrology. It's an odd area of study and discipline, but so what? Wikipedia has decided that astrology is a pseudoscience, even though philosophers don't agree that there is anything that can be called pseudoscience (see Demarcation Problem). That decision is Wikipedia's business. But that is something apart from fringe or gap studies. Logical positivists like IRWolfie cannot tolerate anything but deductive reasoning based on established beliefs. Without inductive reasoning, science and knowledge cannot grow and bridge the gaps. There is a literature on this. There are organizations and there are leaders who are well known and astrology spans centuries of culture, belief, and philsophy, including the present day. The presentations, theories, and controversies regarding astrology, or any fringe or gap discipline, are of interest to special researchers and should be part of Wikipedia as it would be part of any informed thought. Ken McRitchie (talk) 02:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I haven't changed them to suit the AfD. I quoted the old version in the AfD. I suggest you look at the previous wording to see that I have not added anything new beyond a clarification. Most of your complaint is a complaint against WP:FRINGE in general. I've ignored your irrelevant soap boxing. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a clearer guideline and is much appreciated. Thanks for that. Was there a consensus around the modification, though? I'm not clear on that. It seems there ought to be a debate about such a significant change. I think it's a good one, but it's major enough (it brings people under notability restrictions that formerly applied only to their theories) that it probably should be discussed first. I would be in favor of it. --Batard0 (talk) 09:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

There was a discussion about the original change in the above thread. If you want, you can maybe notify WP:FTN to get some more opinions. I should highlight that the original change proposed by Saedon just clarifies existing practices. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:18, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is a significant change, and no, it has not been subject to proper debate. I am going to undo this amendment and ask that is not reinstated until the implications have been properly considered and discussed in full. It is of concern that this editor avoids seeking proper consensus on such an important matter, but changes the wording of the policy to broaden its remit to biographies at a time when he is locked in debates (see this, this and this) about whether these policies should apply to biography pages he has personally put up for deletion. There are two important points to consider, and like Batard0 I believe this matter is consequential enough to deserve a proper request for discussion and broader Wikipedia input.

The first concern is that this policy is intended to serve a purpose; that purpose being that WP content maintains due weight and does not present fringe theories as if they hold up against mainstream knowledge. Its purpose is not to ensure that anyone who has notability by association with a fringe subject is enforced to submit to more restrictive notability guidelines than those who are notable for other reasons. Notability is notability, and is not wholly dependent on mainstream academic publications, which are the only 'reliable' sources that IRWolfie seems to want to allow. Indeed, notoriety can be a source of notability, as can popular attention drawn to trivial things that academic sources have no reason or interest in commenting upon.

Another serious concern is that, far from clarifying the principles, this amendment will generate an incredible amount of confusion and dissatisfaction amongst editors who will have no idea which policies on notability apply to authors and creative professionals whose work holds associations with fringe subjects. Many editors have recently expressed strong disagreement with IRWolfie's interpretation of policies in his deletion proposal requests, pointing out that biographies of persons do not essentially fall under the guidelines for Fringe theories as he insists, so long as only straightforward biographical information is given, which does not give undue weight to their views and beliefs (which obviously would fall under this policy). The correct notability guideline to apply in this instance is that which relates to the biographies creative professionals (see WP:author) which does not require significant in-depth attention from mainstream publications, but only that:

1. The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.
2. The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
3. The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
4. The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.

IRWolfie can come across to other editors as being "a bit overzealous at identifying sources as "fringe", and currently he is not gaining consensus for the interpretation of policy that he makes. For him to alter the wording of those policies without full discussion at the time that are being discussed and debated by others who disagree with him is quite inappropriate. Logical 1 (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

You've undone edits from a month ago and several before the AfD for which there already is a consensus, and you think this is all to do with one article? Excuse me if I ignore an argument which is based on attacking me, especially considering I didn't propose either clarification in the first place. Astrology is a fringe pseudoscience. Astrology sources are fringe sources, it is black and white. Your opinions about what this guideline is for are built on foundations of sand since you've only made 31 edits, only 6 to an article. NPOV does have an impact on the existence of articles, this is well established. FRINGE also has an impact on existence, also well established. If an article can not be represented neutrally, we don't have it. To be neutral that means giving due deference to the mainstream without resorting to original research. This guideline precisely does add harder notability requirements, and has done so for several years, since it first came into existence. For some reason You have reverted my placing of the different notability paragraphs together into one section for easy access (amongst other small edits). IRWolfie- (talk) 19:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

IRWolfie... The paragraph you want to remove has been part of this guideline for a LONG time. The fact that three people have now reverted your removal shows that you do not have consensus to remove it. Please stop edit warring. Blueboar (talk) 19:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Paragraph I removed? What are you talking about? You made a revert that shrunk the article by 16 bytes, what paragraph do you think you are restoring? IRWolfie- (talk) 19:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I owe IRW an apology... My concern was with the paragraph "A Fringe subject (a fringe theory, organization or aspect of a fringe theory) is considered notable enough ... or during "slow news days". (See junk food news and silly season)." It looked at first glance as if he was repeatedly removing that paragraph... but I now see that the paragraph in question was not actually removed (it is there in both versions being edit warred over, however it is placed in different locations in each version). I have self-reverted my revert.

That said... may I ask all involved to discuss rather than revert war. Blueboar (talk) 20:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." This is the eternal path of fringe advocates on Wikipedia - lose the content argument, maybe get topic banned, then move on to agitating for friendlier content policies. I have seen it happen before with numerous flavors of charlatanry. "Logical" 1's objections seem primarily based on his antipathy to IRWolfie and not on substantive disagreement with the material. I really don't see any substantial change proposed to the policy, and the paragraph is preserved before and after. Skinwalker (talk) 19:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

To further clarify, this is the specific recent changes: [1]. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It looks like this was a drive by revert. If there are no objections, I will restore the material in the above diff. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

R-peak

I've nominated this page for deletion. It seems to me this is a hoax with respect to the article's content. Created by a WP:SPA, it sat in mainspace for two years. Someone added it to Category:Pseudoscience and Category:Types of scientific fallacy, which is how I found it; it's not liked from any articles. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a guideline page, perhaps you are looking for advice at WP:FTN. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Theory --> Topic -->Subject etc

Given this revert, we obviously need to discuss this further.

Correct me if I misunderstand the dispute, but I think the objection is centered on the fact that a person who is known for advocating a Fringe Theory can be notable for other things, things that have nothing to do with their advocacy. I would agree with this.

The flip side is that a notable person's advocacy can be trivial to a person's notability, and mentioning a person's advocacy in their bio article can give the theory Undue Weight. Also advocacy of a fringe theory by a notable person does not guarantee that the theory is notable. I would agree with this as well.

does this sum up the issue... or am I misinterpreting the dispute? Blueboar (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Logical 1 is wrong in their comment here [2]. Fringe theory guidelines apply to -any- place a fringe theory is even mentioned, and always has. If a persons notability is attached to their adherence to a fringe theory, then the notability should be judged with this guideline as well. For the reason of advocacy being a minor detail I have already clarified this with " a significant claim" to notability being related to the fringe theory. There is nothing new here; if neutrality can not be achieved in any article because of a lack of sources, we remove the article on NPOV grounds alone (this happens).

I think it is also fair to reflect on the intentions of Logical 1 here; Logical 1 is an astrologer, with 6 edits to articles, who has not tried to engage on this page in the last 3 days, but instead did a drive by revert when I re-inserted the text. She wishes to hold the guideline hostage because she finds it disagreeable since it applies to her belief system. The editor is mistaken about their interpretation of FRINGE and is merely wikilaywering with an obvious misunderstanding of policies e.g "WP:BIO is the place where person related policies are determine" is clearly wrong. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:29, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Often the only sources to demonstrate notability of a fringe advocate are in-universe and/or promotional. Articles about homeopaths are a prime example; see Paul_Herscu - or take almost any article in [3] at random. I have not found much success in addressing these at AFD. I think IRWolfie's formulation is a good step towards clarifying this problem. Skinwalker (talk) 18:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

IRWolfie, I would appreciate some clarification about the practical application of your proposed edit so I can better understand it. If a fringe theorist is referenced extensively in the following national publications, which in your view are likely to count towards notability:

1. A women’s fashion magazine?
2. An article in a tabloid newspaper or sensational magazine like the National Inquirer?
3. An article in a major publication that is light hearted (i.e. not serious)?
4. A television or radio program that carries a for "entertainment only" disclaimer?
5. A specialist TV channel that carries interviews with fringe theorists (not advertorials)?
6. A magazine that publishes fringe articles in a broad sense i.e. not specifically related to the field of the fringe theorist?
7. A book that is not self-published nor on a fringe topic nor written by a fringe theorist?

Kooky2 (talk) 00:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the opportunity to elaborate Blueboar. I have been wanting to come back and respond to earlier posts but needed time to do so. There is relevance in what you say but there are other points to consider too.

First of all, can I clarify that discussion on the wording of WP:Fringe should take place here, on this talk page, as it states in the notice box at the top of the page? IRWolfie has suggested that it should take place on the talk page of Fringe theories notice board, which might be a good place to attract attention, but does not seem to be the place to determine consensus regarding word changes to this project page.

The title of this page makes a clear enough statement on where its remit extends: theories and ideas. The guidelines ensure we don't give promotion to ideas that are not supported by the mainstream academic or scientific community, which does not prevent Wikipedia from reporting on the details of fringe, so long as the contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints are made clear. We all agree on that.

At the end of August Saedon began a series of bold edits which changed the historical references to 'fringe view' to read 'fringe view (or organizations)', as it reads now. IRWolfie wants to extend it further so that any biography can be defined as a 'fringe topic' if the person's notability involves a relation with a fringe theory.

Where this becomes messy is in regard to what constitutes sufficient notability for a person's biography to be granted inclusion in Wikipedia. According to the policy implications of the proposed word change, it will not matter how prominent and influential someone might have been in their own fields, (even if those fields have millions of followers), nor whether their work has been instrumental in pioneering new concepts that have attracted a huge number of adherents. IRWolfie's insistence (given many times in deletion proposals) is that the proposed wording limits biographical inclusion to those whose work can be proven to have been referenced extensively, and in a serious and reliable manner, in at least one major (mainstream) publication that is fully independent of those who are interested or believe in the theory. This is not realistic or practical, especially for historical biographies where basic biographical information (such as dates and times of notable career impact) are only likely to be found in subject-related publications.

IRWolfie has argued for a number of biography deletions on the basis that this page prohibits reference to them from subject-related publications. She was not successful in recent attempts; however arguments and edit-wars will continue unless the discussion is engaged in fully, and a reliable consensus achieved to bring the clarity of principle that Batard0 has asked for.

In fact, I believe Batard0 has sought clarification in the wrong place. The policies that estblish the notability criteria for persons (any persons) are not determined here but at Wikipedia:Notability (people) WP:BIO. There are various ways in which a person is deemed to be notable, (defined as "worthy of notice" – that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded"). There is no prohibitive exclusion if someone's work has not been referenced extensively, and in a serious and reliable manner, in at least one major publication that is independent of those who are interested or believe in the theory. The criteria that applies to authors or 'creative professionals', for example is explained here.

A person whose work lacks extensive and serious discussion in a major mainstream academic or scientific work can achieve notability if they are widely cited by their peers of successors; or if they are known for originating new concepts, or have had multiple independent periodical articles or review, or if they are widely recognised as having left an enduring historical record in his or her field WP:ANYBIO.

Further, according to IRWolfie's insistence that this policy applies to persons and not just theories and ideas, she argues that even the most basic biographical information cannot come from subject-related publications. Why not? How does this endanger the interests of WP's undue weight concerns? The supposed logic is that no book which treats fringe subjects seriously can be considered a reliable source, or independent of the subject (if they treat it seriously they must be associated with it), therefore no reliable independent sources actually exist for a fringe topic, or for any person who becomes notable through their association with it.

My argument in no way dilutes the applicability of WP's fringe theory policy as IRWolfie has suggested. Within biographies of persons whose work is related to fringe subjects we need to tread carefully, apply these guidelines and ensure there is no undue weight. These policies only require that theories and beliefs are explained appropriately, without any sense of promotion or mainstream acceptance. Within the content of the biography fringe theory policy applies just as it does everywhere on WP. My argument is only that what determines sufficient notability for the inclusion of biographies on WP is not subject to the guidelines of this page (IRWolfies has argued it is). My position is that these guidelines instruct us on how to report the details of the theory, not the biographical details of a person who gains notability through their advocacy of it.

If IRWolfie wants to change the policy that relates to the biographies of persons with connections to fringe, she should raise the matter for discussion at Wikipedia:Notability (people), so that we have one centralized place of reference, and don't cause everlasting edit wars by creating guidelines here that contradict the established policies that are clearly stated there. Logical 1 (talk) 01:08, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok... two Questions: If the only thing that makes a person potentially notable is his/her advocacy of a fringe theory...

1) does something akin to WP:ONEEVENT apply... is it not more appropriate to discuss the person within the context of an article about the theory they advocate, rather than in a stand alone bio article?

2) can such a person be deemed notable if the Fringe theory they advocate is deemed non-notable? Blueboar (talk) 02:34, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

TLDR. Brevity is the soul of wit. My notification to the FTN was to attract editors here, not to change the venue of the discussion. I didn't even mention the proposed wording at AfD so your view of the history of the change is incorrect. In fact almost every diff you show is a misrepresentation; [4] is not about the applicability of a fringe theory policy, and I'm quite amazed that you have construed it to somehow mean that. Batard0 did not choose the wrong place; this is the correct place for notability in relation to fringe theories, the guideline has several paragraphs explicitly about notability (Read the guideline before you say things). IRWolfie- (talk) 10:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

@ Blueboar: I would say that there are a number of differentiations to keep in mind. Someone who is notable by association with a well known fringe theory may not be known for advocacy of it – unless we are assuming that personal acceptance necessarily implies advocacy, which I think would be wrong. They might accept the theory personally yet never seek to popularise it. They could be critical of aspects of it, and seek to change its standards or accepted techniques. If their proposed changes are widely adopted or influential on the general community of adherents, then he or she is potentially notable, even though their ideas and views have only ever been made within subject related publications.

So for your first point would say that WP:ONEEVENT can only apply where notability is attached to one event, not for someone whose notability is established by many years of being quoted and referred to by in-universe sources, (to the extent that they become prominently known for the legacy that their influence has made and the way that the practices of fringe theory advocates has changed as a result).

I don’t have an answer for your second point. If I understand it correctly, I'm inclined to think not, unless we have something like WP:ONEEVENT, in which case we follow the guidelines there. But my point is that you, I, or no one can know without an understanding of context, so all notability issues for persons have to be evaluated according to the general notability guidelines WP:GNG. There are no exceptions or special privileges given to those whose work relates to fringe subjects. If the basis of concern for the page is one of notability, discussion should be raised at WP:WPBIO, or a request for clarification at WT:BIO. If it is one of reliability of source material, we discuss on WP:RSN or clarify policy at WT:IRS. In all of these places the fringe theory policies apply, because there is no page on WP where there is an exclusion to the requirement to maintain due weight. Similarly I would expect this or the fringe theory noticeboard to be the best place to determine what constitutes a 'notable fringe theory', bearing in mind that its purpose is to explain fringe theory policies clearly so that any report of fringe theory on any type of page is free of implications of advocacy or promotion. Logical 1 (talk) 10:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)