Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 July 14
July 14
Category:Symplectic topology
- Propose merging Category:Symplectic topology to Category:Symplectic geometry
- Nominator's rationale: In mathematics, "symplectic geometry" and "symplectic topology" are often (though not universally) understood to be two terms meaning the same thing, usually depending on the author's preference and feelings about how "geometric" the subject is. For examples of this usage, see this SE answer and the fact that Symplectic topology is a redirect to Symplectic geometry. The category Category:Symplectic topology seems to be a duplicate of Category:Symplectic geometry. The latter page claims that there is a difference, as "Topological aspects are often categorized as Category:Symplectic topology". However, I don't think this is how most people use the word. Indeed, looking at the pages, it is hard to believe there is much, if any, adherence to this (very subjective) rule! For example, it seems hard to believe that Symplectic basis and Darboux's theorem are "geometric" but Gromov–Witten invariant and Symplectomorphism are "topological". And most things in both categories seem like they could just as well go into either one! The relevant policies are WP:SUBJECTIVECAT and WP:OVERLAPCAT. I propose merging these categories under the more common term "symplectic geometry" and having the category page for "symplectic topology" be a redirect. This is my first time using CfD, so please forgive any mistakes I make. I am not sure if I am supposed to add the subst:Cfm template to the category that is being merged to as well as the category being merged from. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 15:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Merge The topological aspects are so important in this field that the main articles are the same. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. If symplectomorphism would be better in Category:Symplectic geometry, which seems a reasonable remark, re-categorise it. Unless Category:Symplectic topology ends up empty, which I think shouldn't happen here, the case for a merge is weak. Charles Matthews (talk) 05:27, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think I have any intuition about whether symplectomorphism is "topological" or "geometric". I think it's arbitrary which one it goes into. One might think a page like Floer homology is "topological", because it is homology, but one might think that Floer homology captures geometric data. Whether this is true depends on whether you think symplectic manifolds and symplectomorphism are "geometric". In the end, I just think there's enough ambiguity there to make all of nearly all of these classifications subjective or overlapping. Can you tell us more of your reasoning? Are there a lot of pages that you think obviously belong under only one of the two categories? Mathwriter2718 (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Per the Tito Omburo comment below, I think you haven't made the case for a merge. There clearly is a difference, and your intuition isn't the point at issue. The usage by people in the field is. Charles Matthews (talk) 05:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think I have any intuition about whether symplectomorphism is "topological" or "geometric". I think it's arbitrary which one it goes into. One might think a page like Floer homology is "topological", because it is homology, but one might think that Floer homology captures geometric data. Whether this is true depends on whether you think symplectic manifolds and symplectomorphism are "geometric". In the end, I just think there's enough ambiguity there to make all of nearly all of these classifications subjective or overlapping. Can you tell us more of your reasoning? Are there a lot of pages that you think obviously belong under only one of the two categories? Mathwriter2718 (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Weak Merge because of the huge overlap described above. I doubt that we have enough editors interested in these topics to maintain the categories well. The work required detracts from the core work of the encyclopedia, which is adding content with citation. ("Weak" because this is always a problem when we try to categorize math topics. It's why I don't engage much with Wikipedia categories.) Mgnbar (talk) 13:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Once I asked Ana Cannas de Silva what the difference was between symplectic topology and symplectic geometry, and she told me that it's really a misnomer, since symplectic geometry is often very topological (spaces under symplectomorphism), while symplectic topology is often very geometrical (Floer homology, Gromov-Witten invariants). Now we shouldn't try to right great wrongs, and I think once one understands this difference, the distinction becomes pretty clear. Tito Omburo (talk) 13:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per WP:LEAST: as the distinction appears to be unclear for specialists (I am not), it is certainly confusing for non-specialists for wich the category system is intended. Another possibility would be to make sympletic topology a subcategory of symplectic geometry, since, usually, topology may be considered as geometry without metric. In any case, the work of sorting the articles between the two categories would be a waste of time for competent editors; this is much more important of spending editor time to improve the articles. D.Lazard (talk) 14:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 12:02, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Weak oppose, many articles in the category do prominently mention symplectic topology. I realize that Wikipedia articles aren't reliable sources, therefore it's a weak keep, but if the articles are wrong in this respect then that should be solved in the first place. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 08:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Mid 19th Century Revival architecture in the United States
- Propose merging Category:Mid 19th Century Revival architecture in the United States to Category:Revival architecture in the United States and Category:19th-century architecture in the United States
- Propose merging Category:Mid 19th Century Revival architecture to Category:Revival architectural styles
- Nominator's rationale: This category seems underpopulated and doesn't seem to be very defining by itself. If not merged, it should be renamed. Mason (talk) 23:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge, unclear what "mid" means. Is it from 1845 to 1855 or from 1820 to 1880. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:American high school teachers
- Propose merging Category:American high school teachers to Category:American schoolteachers
- Nominator's rationale: Do we really need to diffuse by level of educator? Do we have middle school, elementary school? This just doesn't need to be very defining Mason (talk) 19:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- If merged then disperse in the tree of Category:American schoolteachers by state or territory. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Poets of the Confederacy
- Propose merging Category:Poets of the Confederacy to Category:19th-century American poets
- Propose merging Category:Novelists of the Confederacy to Category:19th-century American novelists
- Propose merging Category:Pro-Confederate writers to Category:19th-century American writers
- Nominator's rationale: Follow up to Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_July_3#Category:Pro-Confederate_clergy, There's no need to have an intersection between nationality, period, occupation, and opinion. Mason (talk) 19:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per nom, or possibly salvsge some of this as Writers about the Confederacy. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The distinction is valid and helpful. deisenbe (talk) 11:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Helpful and valid are not reasons to create/keep a category. @Deisenbe please review the criteria for categories so you can actually make compelling counter arguments. Mason (talk) 03:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Ancient infrastructure
- Propose merging Category:Infrastructure completed in the 9th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 9th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Infrastructure completed in the 7th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 7th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Infrastructure completed in the 5th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 5th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Infrastructure completed in the 4th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 4th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Transport infrastructure completed in the 9th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 9th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Transport infrastructure completed in the 5th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 5th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Transport infrastructure completed in the 4th century BC to Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 4th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Bridges completed in the 9th century BC to Category:Bridges completed in the 1st millennium BC and Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 9th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Bridges completed in the 5th century BC to Category:Bridges completed in the 1st millennium BC and Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 5th century BC
- Propose merging Category:Bridges completed in the 4th century BC to Category:Bridges completed in the 1st millennium BC and Category:Buildings and structures completed in the 4th century BC
- Nominator's rationale: merge, only one article in each of these categories, this is not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Artists from New Spain
- Nominator's rationale: Non of the people in here are described as being New Spanish. I think that this kind of category could work as a parent/container category, but I don't see how it's helpful to bundle such disparate people together Mason (talk) 18:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- They do not seem very disparate, most of them lived not too far from Mexico City, the capital of New Spain. And even if they would live far away from the capital, is that a problem? Marcocapelle (talk) 19:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- New Spain is such a broad area over a huge period of time. Wouldn't it make more sense to have this as a parent category for Category:16th-century Mexican artists etc instead? Mason (talk) 03:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Russia is a big country too and it has existed for a long time too. Is that a problem? Of course I wouldn't object to subcategories based on administrative subdivisions, but I am not sure if Mexico was one. At least there was the Captaincy General of Guatemala and the three big Caribbean islands each were their own captaincy general. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- New Spain is such a broad area over a huge period of time. Wouldn't it make more sense to have this as a parent category for Category:16th-century Mexican artists etc instead? Mason (talk) 03:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- They do not seem very disparate, most of them lived not too far from Mexico City, the capital of New Spain. And even if they would live far away from the capital, is that a problem? Marcocapelle (talk) 19:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Expatriates from the Spanish Empire
- Nominator's rationale: This category is underpopulated and unhelpful. The only person in here is cuban, and there is no mention of the spanish empire on the page Mason (talk) 18:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete, the only person in the category was an emigrant, not an expatriate. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Involving countries
- Propose renaming Category:Wars by country involved to Category:Wars involving countries
- Propose renaming Category:Lists of wars by country involved to Category:Lists of wars involving countries
- Propose renaming Category:Lists of wars by former country to Category:Lists of wars involving former countries
- Propose renaming Category:Wars of the Middle Ages by former country to Category:Wars of the Middle Ages involving former countries
- Propose renaming Category:Battles by country involved to Category:Battles involving countries
- Propose renaming Category:Battles by former country involved to Category:Battles involving former countries
- Propose renaming Category:Sieges by country involved to Category:Sieges involving countries
- Propose renaming Category:Sieges by former country involved to Category:Sieges involving former countries
- Propose renaming Category:Naval battles by country involved to Category:Naval battles involving countries
- Propose renaming Category:Naval battles by former country involved to Category:Naval battles involving former countries
- Added on relisting:
- Propose renaming Category:Wars involving former countries to Category:Wars by former country involved
- Nominator's rationale: Consistency with Category:Wars involving former countries and similarly-named categories of non-state actors (e.g. Category:Battles involving peoples, Category:Wars involving peoples; supranational organisations like Category:Peacekeeping missions and operations involving the United Nations; rebel groups like Category:Military operations involving the al-Nusra Front; alliances like Category:Wars involving NATO and Category:Military operations involving the Warsaw Pact, etc.), and to avoid confusion with "countries formerly involved in war X". Follow-up to preliminary discussion Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 22#Involving former countries or by former country involved, where it was found best to let go of the "by country involved" formula as the de facto standard. NLeeuw (talk) 08:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle: courtesy ping for follow-up discussion. Good day. NLeeuw (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- The two discussions should obviously be closed the same way. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- With the previous discussion closed as Withdrawn (as planned), can you now support my proposal? NLeeuw (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Rename for consistency with Category:Wars involving former countries and Category:Wars involving peoples. That is, I would equally support a reverse rename of Category:Wars involving former countries and Category:Wars involving peoples instead of the above but that is not currently being proposed. My point is just to make it more consistent. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- With the previous discussion closed as Withdrawn (as planned), can you now support my proposal? NLeeuw (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- Rename to match consistency. "By former country involved" is more awkward than the newly established convention. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep most, but rename Category:Lists of wars by former country to Category:Lists of wars by former country involved, and Category:Wars of the Middle Ages by former country to Category:Wars of the Middle Ages by former country involved. Relist and add Category:Wars involving former countries (not currently tagged) to Category:Wars by former country involved. I find nothing wrong with the phrase "by former country involved". – Fayenatic London 21:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 11#Category:Battles involving ancient peoples. – Fayenatic London 11:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep most per Fayenatic london - every war involves a country and the important part of the name Category:Wars by country involved is that it's a container category. * Pppery * it has begun... 14:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Discussion about reopening and notifications
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: More discussion on the actual nomination at hand (as well as the alt)?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)- If the discussion about procedures should be moved and held somewhere else than CfD, that's fine with me. What would be the best venue? NLeeuw (talk) 09:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I voted for consistency, and presumably nobody is against that, so better ignore my contribution in this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:46, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I am not convinced by Pppery's argument every war involves a country and the important part of the name Category:Wars by country involved is that it's a container category. In the rationale, as well as the linked discussion Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 22#Involving former countries or by former country involved, it has been explained that not every war involves a country. And if we want to make clear something is a containercat, there is a Template:Containercat for that, which all nominees already have.
- @Fayenatic, can I ask you for some further explanation/rationale? You said: I find nothing wrong with the phrase "by former country involved". Ok, but that's not an argument in itself. Is there anything wrong with the proposal? If there is, what? If not, then one might as well not !vote, or !vote weak support, or !vote neutral. Moreover, why is there a need to add "involved" to catnames which currently do not have that word? You propose we should, but do not explain why. Good day, NLeeuw (talk) 09:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- @NLeeuw I am persuaded by Pppery's argument agains the proposal. The proposed name is bad because it's meaningless in English, and omits "by" which indicates that it's a container category (with or without a template). I do not accept your rationale as I think it would be improbable to confusion with "countries formerly involved in war X". "Involved" should be added consistently per the precedents linked above, to indicate participants rather than locations. I support the rationale I've recently initiated a push for adding the word "involved" to the latter type of catnames to avoid confusion with "battles *in* Fooland" (see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 4#Category:Battles by country and WP:MILMOS#BATTLESIN) by, er, NLeeuw. – Fayenatic London 10:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Since when does a containercat need the word by in the catname? Wikipedia:Container category doesn't say anything about that. If we take a look at a random sample of 500 categories which transclude Template:Container category, only 312 of them (62.4%) have the word by in the catname. Are you suggesting that the other 188 catnames (37.6%) are all bad because it's meaningless in English? Or maybe the word by is not necessary in containercat catnames after all? NLeeuw (talk) 11:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe Category:Naval battles involving pirates is a good comparison? It could work both ways.
- I assume we agree there is nothing linguistically wrong with this catname. It's not necessary to rename this to Naval battles by pirates involved, because the catname is clear as it is. It's not a containercat, and perhaps it shouldn't be a containercat, because we might be hard-pressed to put all items currently in it into subcategories.
- On the other hand, does this catname not demonstrate that there is nothing "linguistically" wrong with catnames such as Wars involving countries and Battles involving countries? I do understand that there is a risk of people placing articles directly into Category:Wars involving countries if we decide to rename as proposed, but every once in a while we will just diffuse that to the appropriate subcategory, as we do with all containercats containing articles. NLeeuw (talk) 11:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- "Battles involving pirates" or "Battles involving NATO" are fine. It's just "involving countries" that fails to convey that it is for subcats by country involved.
- The May 22 discussion was explicitly only about former countries, and you argued that "involving former countries" was sufficiently clear. I would not strongly oppose that name for a container category, although I prefer to keep names consistent within a hierarchy. However, this nomination fails by trying to apply your preference in that nomination to categories by country, not just by former country.
- As for using "by" on containers: Category:Battles is a top-level container, like e.g. Category:Dancers, so it doesn't use "by" in its name. However, most of its hierarchy is sorted by parameter using six intermediate container categories, all of which use "by" for clarity – except for one that is currently nominated. – Fayenatic London 12:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I didn't know how those top-level containers worked and that "by" is not required for them. Is that the case for all those 188 catnames without "by"? Then perhaps my objection is mistaken. NLeeuw (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe Category:Naval battles involving pirates is a good comparison? It could work both ways.
- Since when does a containercat need the word by in the catname? Wikipedia:Container category doesn't say anything about that. If we take a look at a random sample of 500 categories which transclude Template:Container category, only 312 of them (62.4%) have the word by in the catname. Are you suggesting that the other 188 catnames (37.6%) are all bad because it's meaningless in English? Or maybe the word by is not necessary in containercat catnames after all? NLeeuw (talk) 11:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- @NLeeuw I am persuaded by Pppery's argument agains the proposal. The proposed name is bad because it's meaningless in English, and omits "by" which indicates that it's a container category (with or without a template). I do not accept your rationale as I think it would be improbable to confusion with "countries formerly involved in war X". "Involved" should be added consistently per the precedents linked above, to indicate participants rather than locations. I support the rationale I've recently initiated a push for adding the word "involved" to the latter type of catnames to avoid confusion with "battles *in* Fooland" (see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 May 4#Category:Battles by country and WP:MILMOS#BATTLESIN) by, er, NLeeuw. – Fayenatic London 10:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Professional wrestlers who boxed amateurly and professionally
- Nominator's rationale: Why do we need people who are at the triple intersection of three sports? Mason (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete, trivial intersection. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Professional wrestlers who use Asian mist
- Nominator's rationale: Narrow in subject and non-defining. We don't have other categories were the subject as ever used a specific move. The category description indicates a huge inclusion criteria of using a specific move. "This category is for all professional wrestlers who, at some point, used Asian mist." Mason (talk) 17:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:WWE wrestlers
- Nominator's rationale: We don't need to categorize people by which wrestling organization they're signed Mason (talk) 17:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete, No, we DON'T need to do that as wrestlers often change organizations as well. Davidgoodheart (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Better served by list of WWE personnel and list of former WWE personnel. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 11:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Scottish noblewomen
- Propose renaming Category:Scottish noblewomen to Category:Scottish women by rank
- Nominator's rationale: I think we should rename and purge this category to mirror British women by rank and English women by rank Mason (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- This would be inconsistent with parent Category:Scottish nobility. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- But there's no other noblewomen categories Mason (talk) 03:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be curious to know why not. If existing I probably wouldn't consider nominating Category:Noblewomen for renaming or merging. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- But there's no other noblewomen categories Mason (talk) 03:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:People from the Austrian Empire of Swiss descent
- Nominator's rationale: Extremely narrow category. There's no need to have the intersection between era, nationality, and ethnicity Mason (talk) 16:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just delete, Austrian people is anachronistic. The Austrian Empire was ten times bigger than the current republic of Austria. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:De-extinction genetic engineering
- Propose merging Category:De-extinction genetic engineering to Category:Genetic engineering
- Nominator's rationale: This category only has one page in it and seem to be highly overlapping with Genetic engineering Mason (talk) 14:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge for now without objection to recreate the category if and when some more articles about the topic will be available. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'd support a merge for now. Mason (talk) 17:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Human enhancement
- Propose merging Category:Human enhancement to Category:Transhumanism
- Nominator's rationale: This seems like too narrow of a category as well as fairly overlapping with existing categories related to Bioethics and Transhumanism Mason (talk) 14:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per nom and perhaps merge the article as well. The difference is unclear. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Twin canopy aircraft
- Nominator's rationale: Non-defining nebulous category, discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft#Twin canopy aircraft?. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. No significance. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Non-defining and ambiguous. Carguychris (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:South Korean anti-feminists
- Propose renaming Category:South Korean anti-feminists to Category:South Korean critics of feminism
- Nominator's rationale: I think we should rename this category to mirror the sibling categories (Female critics of feminism etc) in its parent Critics of feminism. Mason (talk) 14:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Based on the article texts, merging to Category:Men's rights activists may be a better idea. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Funnily enough -- that was the other name I was contemplating! Equally fine with me Mason (talk) 16:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Articles with wanted PUA characters
- Propose renaming Category:Articles with wanted PUA characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Articles with wanted Private Use Area characters
- Propose renaming Category:Articles with unsupported PUA characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to Category:Articles with unsupported Private Use Area characters
- Nominator's rationale: Expand abbreviation. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 08:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Museum collections
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Allen Memorial Art Gallery to Category:Collection of the Allen Memorial Art Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Allen Memorial Art Museum to Category:Collection of the Allen Memorial Art Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Amgueddfa Cymru – Museum Wales to Category:Collection of Amgueddfa Cymru – Museum Wales
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery to Category:Collection of Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Derby Museum and Art Gallery to Category:Collection of Derby Museum and Art Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Herbert Art Gallery and Museum to Category:Collection of the Herbert Art Gallery and Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Lancashire Museums to Category:Collection of Lancashire Museums
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of M – Museum Leuven to Category:Collection of M – Museum Leuven
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of National Galleries Scotland to Category:Collection of National Galleries Scotland
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of National Museums Scotland to Category:Collection of National Museums Scotland
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of North Lincolnshire Museum to Category:Collection of North Lincolnshire Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Palazzo Abatellis to Category:Collection of the Palazzo Abatellis
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Palazzo Pitti to Category:Collection of the Palazzo Pitti
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of Pinacoteca di Brera to Category:Collection of the Pinacoteca di Brera
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of The Collection (Lincolnshire) to Category:Collection of the Lincoln Museum, Lincolnshire
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of York Art Gallery to Category:Collection of York Art Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Accademia Carrara to Category:Collection of the Accademia Carrara
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Albertina, Vienna to Category:Collection of the Albertina, Vienna
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Gallery of Ballarat to Category:Collection of the Art Gallery of Ballarat
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Gallery of New South Wales to Category:Collection of the Art Gallery of New South Wales
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Gallery of Ontario to Category:Collection of the Art Gallery of Ontario
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Gallery of South Australia to Category:Collection of the Art Gallery of South Australia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Gallery of Western Australia to Category:Collection of the Art Gallery of Western Australia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Institute of Chicago to Category:Collection of the Art Institute of Chicago
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Art Museum of Estonia to Category:Collection of the Art Museum of Estonia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Astrup Fearnley Museum of Modern Art to Category:Collection of the Astrup Fearnley Museum of Modern Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Ateneum to Category:Collection of the Ateneum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Australian War Memorial to Category:Collection of the Australian War Memorial
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Bangkok National Museum to Category:Collection of the Bangkok National Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Bardo National Museum (Tunis) to Category:Collection of the Bardo National Museum (Tunis)
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Detroit Institute of Arts to Category:Collection of the Detroit Institute of Arts
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Doria Pamphilj Gallery to Category:Collection of the Doria Pamphilj Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Fitzwilliam Museum to Category:Collection of the Fitzwilliam Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Fuglsang Art Museum to Category:Collection of the Fuglsang Art Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria Borghese to Category:Collection of the Galleria Borghese
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica to Category:Collection of the Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria Nazionale dell'Umbria to Category:Collection of the Galleria Nazionale dell'Umbria
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria Nazionale delle Marche to Category:Collection of the Galleria Nazionale delle Marches
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria Sabauda to Category:Collection of the Galleria Sabauda
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria dell'Accademia to Category:Collection of the Galleria dell'Accademia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Galleria nazionale di Parma to Category:Collection of the Galleria nazionale di Parma
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Gallerie dell'Accademia to Category:Collection of the Gallerie dell'Accademia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Geelong Gallery to Category:Collection of the Geelong Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister to Category:Collection of the Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Germanisches Nationalmuseum to Category:Collection of the Germanisches Nationalmuseum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Gothenburg Museum of Art to Category:Collection of the Gothenburg Museum of Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Groeningemuseum to Category:Collection of the Groeningemuseum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Hull and East Riding Museum to Category:Collection of the Hull and East Riding Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Hunan Museum to Category:Collection of the Hunan Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Hunan Provincial Museum to Category:Collection of the Hunan Provincial Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Israel Museum to Category:Collection of the Israel Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the J. Paul Getty Museum to Category:Collection of the J. Paul Getty Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Kröller-Müller Museum to Category:Collection of the Kröller-Müller Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Kunsthistorisches Museum to Category:Collection of the Kunsthistorisches Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Kunstmuseum, The Hague to Category:Collection of the Kunstmuseum The Hague
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Lady Lever Art Gallery to Category:Collection of the Lady Lever Art Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Louvre to Category:Collection of the Louvre
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Lázaro Galdiano Museum to Category:Collection of the Lázaro Galdiano Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Moderna Museet to Category:Collection of the Moderna Museet
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts to Category:Collection of the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museo Bardini to Category:Collection of the Museo Bardini
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museo Correr to Category:Collection of the Museo Correr
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía to Category:Collection of the Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museo Nazionale di San Matteo to Category:Collection of the Museo Nazionale di San Matteo
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museo del Prado to Category:Collection of the Museo del Prado
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museo di Capodimonte to Category:Collection of the Museo di Capodimonte
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya to Category:Collection of the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum Boijmans Van Beuningen to Category:Collection of the Museum Boijmans Van Beuningen
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum Ludwig to Category:Collection of the Museum Ludwig
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston to Category:Collection of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum of Fine Arts, Ghent to Category:Collection of the Museum of Fine Arts, Ghent
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum of Fine Arts (Budapest) to Category:Collection of the Museum of Fine Arts (Budapest)
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon to Category:Collection of the Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum of Grenoble to Category:Collection of the Museum of Grenoble
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Museum of London to Category:Collection of the Museum of London
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée Carnavalet to Category:Collection of the Musée Carnavalet
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée Condé to Category:Collection of the Musée Condé
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée Gustave-Moreau to Category:Collection of the Musée Gustave-Moreau
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée Jacquemart-André to Category:Collection of the Musée Jacquemart-André
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée d'Art et d'Histoire (Neuchâtel) to Category:Collection of the Musée d'Art et d'Histoire (Neuchâtel)
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée d'Arts de Nantes to Category:Collection of the Musée d'Arts de Nantes
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée d'Orsay to Category:Collection of the Musée d'Orsay
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée des Augustins to Category:Collection of the Musée des Augustins
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy to Category:Collection of the Musée des Beaux-Arts de Nancy
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée des Beaux-Arts et d'archéologie de Besançon to Category:Collection of the Musée des Beaux-Arts et d'archéologie de Besançon
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Musée des beaux-arts de la ville de Paris to Category:Collection of the Musée des beaux-arts de la ville de Paris
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Archaeological Museum, Naples to Category:Collection of the National Archaeological Museum, Naples
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Archives of Thailand to Category:Collection of the National Archives of Thailand
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery (Norway) to Category:Collection of the National Gallery (Norway)
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery Prague to Category:Collection of the National Gallery Prague
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery of Art to Category:Collection of the National Gallery of Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery of Australia to Category:Collection of the National Gallery of Australia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery of Canada to Category:Collection of the National Gallery of Canada
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery of Denmark to Category:Collection of the National Gallery of Denmark
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Gallery of Victoria to Category:Collection of the National Gallery of Victoria
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich to Category:Collection of the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum Cardiff to Category:Collection of National Museum Cardiff
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum in Prague to Category:Collection of the National Museum in Prague
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum of Anthropology (Mexico) to Category:Collection of the National Museum of Anthropology (Mexico)
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum of Beirut to Category:Collection of the National Museum of Beirut
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum of Qatar to Category:Collection of the National Museum of Qatar
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum of Serbia to Category:Collection of the National Museum of Serbia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum of Singapore to Category:Collection of the National Museum of Singapore
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Museum of the Philippines to Category:Collection of the National Museum of the Philippines
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Portrait Gallery, London to Category:Collection of the National Portrait Gallery, London
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the National Roman Museum to Category:Collection of the National Roman Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Nationalmuseum Stockholm to Category:Collection of the Nationalmuseum Stockholm
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Naval Museum of Madrid to Category:Collection of the Naval Museum of Madrid
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art to Category:Collection of the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the New Art Gallery Walsall to Category:Collection of the New Art Gallery Walsall
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the North Carolina Museum of Art to Category:Collection of the North Carolina Museum of Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Norton Simon Museum to Category:Collection of the Norton Simon Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Norwegian Museum of Cultural History to Category:Collection of the Norwegian Museum of Cultural History
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek to Category:Collection of the Ny Carlsberg Glyptothek
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Palais des Beaux-Arts de Lille to Category:Collection of the Palais des Beaux-Arts de Lille
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Petit Palais to Category:Collection of the Petit Palais
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Powerhouse Museum to Category:Collection of the Powerhouse Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Pushkin Museum to Category:Collection of the Pushkin Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Randers Museum of Art to Category:Collection of the Randers Museum of Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Rijksmuseum Amsterdam to Category:Collection of the Rijksmuseum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Royal Museum of Fine Arts, Antwerp to Category:Collection of the Royal Museum of Fine Arts, Antwerp
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Royal Museums of Fine Arts of Belgium to Category:Collection of the Royal Museums of Fine Arts of Belgium
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Royal Ontario Museum to Category:Collection of the Royal Ontario Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Russian Museum to Category:Collection of the Russian Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Salar Jung Museum to Category:Collection of the Salar Jung Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Science Museum, London to Category:Collection of the Science Museum, London
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Scott Polar Research Institute to Category:Collection of the Scott Polar Research Institute
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Skagens Museum to Category:Collection of the Skagens Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Strada Nuova Museums to Category:Collection of the Musei di Strada Nuova
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Städel to Category:Collection of the Städel
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Thyssen-Bornemisza Museum to Category:Collection of the Thyssen-Bornemisza Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Tretyakov Gallery to Category:Collection of the Tretyakov Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Uffizi to Category:Collection of the Uffizi
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Van Gogh Museum to Category:Collection of the Van Gogh Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Vatican Museums to Category:Collection of the Vatican Museums
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Victoria and Albert Museum to Category:Collection of the Victoria and Albert Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Villa Giulia to Category:Collection of the Villa Giulia
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Wadsworth Atheneum to Category:Collection of the Wadsworth Atheneum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Wallraf-Richartz Museum to Category:Collection of the Wallraf-Richartz Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Wallraf–Richartz Museum to Category:Collection of the Wallraf–Richartz Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Winterthur Museum, Garden and Library to Category:Collection of the Winterthur Museum, Gallery and Library
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Worcester Art Museum to Category:Collection of the Worcester Art Museum
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Yale Center for British Art to Category:Collection of the Yale Center for British Art
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Yale University Art Gallery to Category:Collection of the Yale University Art Gallery
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the York Archaeological Trust to Category:Collection of the York Archaeological Trust
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the York Museums Trust to Category:Collection of the York Museums Trust
- Propose renaming Category:Collections of the Yorkshire Museum to Category:Collection of the Yorkshire Museum
- Nominator's rationale: Subcategories of Category:Museum collections for individual museums currently use a mixture of the styles "Collection of [the Foo Museum]" and "Collections of [the Foo Museum]". I propose to standardize to "Collection", singular, as that seems more logical; the article Collection (museum) mostly refers to a museum as having a "collection" as opposed to "collections", plural – although "Very large museums will often have many sub-collections, each with its own criteria for collecting. A natural history museum, for example, will have mammals in a separate collection from insects." Even in those cases, though, it's still idiomatic to refer to the collection of, say, the British Museum – see this Ngram. Ham II (talk) 06:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose It is indeed correct to use a plural categroy name when a museum has multiple named collections, often each with their own subcategory. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 07:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose As Andy. Collections in plural (for all but the smallest museums) is correct. Especially for our use, where we regularly have subcategories to more specific collections. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose for the reasons expressed above. I think it would be better to standardize using "Collections", since it is not uncommon for museums to have multiple collections. — SGconlaw (talk) 14:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Oppose and standardize 'Collections' per Sgconlaw. For example, I often refer to Wikipedia's topic collections and not overall 'collection of articles'. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- Strong support I'm very puzzled by these opposes - most from people not known for activity in this area. To "standardize using "Collections", since it is not uncommon for museums to have multiple collections" is just NOT an option, as many museums don't have multiple named options. We can indeed use named subcategories though pretty few museum categories actually do so - one exception is Category:British Library. We normally sub-categorize by type of object, area they are from etc. You will very very rarely hear museum people talk about "our collections" rather than "our collection". If, like me, you work a lot in this area, including categories, it is a complete pain to have to keep experimenting to see which form is used by us. Johnbod (talk) 22:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Johnbod, that sounds like an argument against the proposal to make everything match. The British Library has many collections, so it should stay at Category:British Library collections (in the plural), and museums that only have one collection should use the singular. Do you really want Category:British Library collections to be renamed to the singular? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, for consistency, which is important here. Alternatively the intermediate Category:British Library collections could just be cut out, and the 15 named collection sub-cats just come off the main BL category. But that will rather mess up parent categories like, in this case Category:Manuscripts by collection. Johnbod (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Johnbod, that sounds like an argument against the proposal to make everything match. The British Library has many collections, so it should stay at Category:British Library collections (in the plural), and museums that only have one collection should use the singular. Do you really want Category:British Library collections to be renamed to the singular? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support, will take Johnbod's word for this when it comes to museum information. I personally use 'collection' when discussing Wikipedia ("Wikipedia's spaceflight collection", etc.) but that's a personal choice. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- support like Johnbod, i'm confused about the opposition here. his argument makes sense to me. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 07:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Bengali letters
- Propose merging Category:Bengali letters to Category:Indic letters and Category:Bengali language
- Propose merging Category:Devanagari letters to Category:Indic letters and Category:Devanagari
- Nominator's rationale: merge, only two articles in each of these categories, that is not helpful for navigation. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge per nom nafSadh did say 15:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Historic cigar factories
- Propose Renaming Category:Historic cigar factories to Category:Cigar factories
- Nominator's rationale: WP:SUBJECTIVECAT
- While Category:Cigar factories on the National Register of Historic Places has clear inclusion criteria, this category does not. In my subjective opinion, the El Laguito Cigar Factory is not historic but, in the subjective opinion of another editor, it is . The proposed rename would make the category objective. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Background: We previously eliminated similarly subjective "historic" categories here and here. - RevelationDirect (talk) 03:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rename per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rename per nom. No need to make categories more confusing than needed. Mason (talk) 14:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Whirly-Girls
- Propose merging Category:Whirly-Girls to Category:Helicopter pilots
- Nominator's rationale: Upmerge; the name is not what these women are referred to but only the name of the organization. Note that these articles are already in Category:Women aviators by nationality. Hence only single merge. Alternative suggestion: keep and rename to Category:Women helicopter pilots which would expand the scope of the category. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, I think renaming to Women Helicopter pilots is suitable and appropriate. There is currently a lack of categories on Wikipedia to suitably identify/locate topics/persons related to women's aviation. The current categories make it difficult to find these aviation pioneers, which are few and worthy of inclusion in a category as it is a defining characteristic. This is why I developed the category in the first place. Thank you for the measured discussion here. Nayyn (talk) 23:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- While there are categories for female aviators, gyro and rotor pilots have different certifications compared to fixed wing pilots and thus it is a unique and defining category. There are comparatively few women who are helicopter pilots overall, and a category specifically for helicopters is particularly useful addition to Wikipedia. Nayyn (talk) 23:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- as per WP:USEFUL
[t]here are some pages within Wikipedia that are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more—disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects, for instance—so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion; for these types of pages, usefulness is a valid argument
Nayyn (talk) 23:47, 28 June 2024 (UTC)- No, "useful" is entirely subjective. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:15, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- as per WP:USEFUL
- While there are categories for female aviators, gyro and rotor pilots have different certifications compared to fixed wing pilots and thus it is a unique and defining category. There are comparatively few women who are helicopter pilots overall, and a category specifically for helicopters is particularly useful addition to Wikipedia. Nayyn (talk) 23:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, I think renaming to Women Helicopter pilots is suitable and appropriate. There is currently a lack of categories on Wikipedia to suitably identify/locate topics/persons related to women's aviation. The current categories make it difficult to find these aviation pioneers, which are few and worthy of inclusion in a category as it is a defining characteristic. This is why I developed the category in the first place. Thank you for the measured discussion here. Nayyn (talk) 23:40, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Merge, not a defining characteristic and women can be easily traced in Category:Women aviators by nationality. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:27, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Merge or rename?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 00:54, 6 July 2024 (UTC)- I don't agree that "women can be easily traced in Category:Women aviators by nationality." I think the suggestion to "keep and rename to Category:Women helicopter pilots which would expand the scope of the category" makes sense.
- I'm not sure what the argument "not a defining characteristic" refers to above? Nayyn (talk) 00:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Non-defining is a keep tennet of Wikipedia:Categorization. @Nayyn, I strongly encourage you to familiarize yourself with the policies of categorization. Mason (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep We have Whirly-Girls as an article on a presumably notable organisation. It seems reasonable to preserve a category that contains its members. The rest would be handled by supercats. If it is considered that women with the temerity to fly rotary wing aircraft are a defining characteristic (they'll be wanting to vote next!), then provide a category for that. But that's a separate grouping. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Organisations based in Macau
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Organisations based in Macau to Category:Organizations based in Macau (over redirect)
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Defunct organisations based in Macau to Category:Defunct organizations based in Macau
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Organisations based in Macau by subject to Category:Organizations based in Macau by subject
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Medical and health organisations based in Macau to Category:Medical and health organizations based in Macau
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Sports organisations of Macau to Category:Sports organizations of Macau
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Youth organisations based in Macau to Category:Youth organizations based in Macau
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Non-profit organisations based in Macau to Category:Non-profit organizations based in Macau
- Propose renaming REDIRECT Category:Naturalised citizens of Macau to Category:Naturalized citizens of Macau
- Propose merging Category:Macau voluntary organisations to Category:Non-profit organizations based in Macau
- Propose merging Category:Scouting and Guiding in Macau to Category:Non-profit organizations based in Macau, Category:Youth organizations based in Macau and Category:Scouting and Guiding by country
- Nominator's rationale: Subcats use a mixture of -s- and -z- spelling; seven others currently use z. There is no reason to use the -s- spelling in Macau, diverging from the international default -z-. The voluntary orgs cat is non-standard and an unnecessary layer, and the Scouting and Guiding cat holds only one article. – Fayenatic London 16:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rename and merge all per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rename and merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:RETAIN. There is no "international default". Categories use a mix of 'z' and the Commonwealth English standard 's'. So the nomination is based on an entirely false premise. Note also that we have Category:Organisations based in Portugal (Macau was a Portuguese colony) and, of course, Category:Organisations based in Hong Kong, in case anyone claims that 'z' is standard in China and we should change all categories to match. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator explicitly mentioned there is a mix of s and z so there is no false premise. Since China consistently uses a z that is a good reason to use z in Macao too. Hong Kong presumably is a different case with a consistent use of s. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Clearly you misunderstood my comment.
There is no reason to use the -s- spelling in Macau, diverging from the international default -z-.
The claim that there is an international default is the clear false premise. There is none, either on Wikipedia or elsewhere. Hong Kong uses 's' because it was a British colony. Macau was a Portuguese colony and our Portuguese categories also use 's'. What the other Chinese categories use is irrelevant when relating to these two cities because of their very different origins. I do wish editors would stop claiming that the way Americans do things is some sort of international standard. It is not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)- Ok, "international standard" may a bit too much. It is both standard American English and accepted in British English though. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Clearly you misunderstood my comment.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: WP:RETAIN is a fairly compelling argument; is there a reason to ignore it / a reason it does not apply here?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Rename per MOS:COMMONALITY. One variety of British (and Commonwealth) English, Oxford English, prefers "z" spellings, so these should be encouraged (at least in subject areas like this which don't have strong ties to Britain or the Commonwealth) as an area of commonality between the main varieties of English. The United Nations uses Oxford English, hence the spelling of World Health Organization and so on. (I wasn't aware of this CfD nomination when I made the same argument at CfDS two days ago. I said then that it was a conversation for another day; that day came sooner than expected!) Ham II (talk) 08:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Sandžak
- Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic. Regional name Sandžak is apparently hardly in use anymore. Even the articles in the history subcategory hardly mention it. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Keep: Considering Sandžak is very small area of Serbia, there is really not that much to write but it deserves to have a separate category. I'm not sure if there are rules involved as in how many articles should category have in order to even be considered but I believe that the amount written so far is good enough to keep it. Боки ☎ ✎ 07:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Size isn't the issue here, WP:DEFINING is. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Is it defining?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Fictional illeists
- Nominator's rationale: Previously deleted at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 19#Category:Fictional illeists then undeleted out of process. Still seems non-defining. * Pppery * it has begun... 19:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy delete per WP:G4. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- G4 doesn't fit, as it was undeleted via Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion rather than recreated. --HPfan4 (talk) 23:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- That is still out of process. WP:DRV would have been the right forum. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I would still support deletion per WP:TRIVIALCAT. I just don't see this as a defining characteristic. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- G4 doesn't fit, as it was undeleted via Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion rather than recreated. --HPfan4 (talk) 23:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy delete per WP:G4. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: the characteristic is defining enough to be covered by and discussed in reliable sources (see, for example, Mantis (Marvel Comics), Elmo, Hercule Poirot). See also the discussion of Category:Illeists. --HPfan4 (talk) 22:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:TRIVIALCAT. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep This is a defining trait, and often discussed in sources. Dimadick (talk) 08:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 00:54, 6 July 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:EBU stubs
- Nominator's rationale: Underpopulated stub category and template, newly created to hold just one article. As always, stub categories are not free for just any user to create on a whim for just one article of interest -- the minimum bar for the creation of a stub category is 60 articles, and for that very reason stub categories should normally be proposed for creation by Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting rather than just getting created willy-nilly.
But the parent category Category:European Broadcasting Union has just 14 articles in it of which only two are short enough that tagging them as stubs would be justifiable -- so really the only possible source of any significant amount of content for this is the Category:Eurovision events subcategory, but Category:Eurovision Song Contest stubs and {{Eurovision-stub}} both already exist to cover that off, and the one article that's been filed here already had that on it, thus making this entirely redundant to another stub template and category that we already have. Bearcat (talk) 21:43, 6 July 2024 (UTC)- Delete per nom. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Bearcat and LaundryPizza03: what do you envision happening with the stub template {{EBU-stub}}? Deleted? Made to feed into Category:Eurovision Song Contest stubs? Something else? HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just deleting it would be fine with me, though I'm not averse to repurposing it if somebody's got actual ideas for how it could become useful... (I can attest only that it isn't needed on the one article it's actually on, since that's already tagged as a Eurovsion stub, but I can't swear on pain of death that there aren't other more valid places for it to be used.) Bearcat (talk) 01:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I will tag {{EBU-stub}}.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- Replace and delete {{EBU-stub}}. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Films directed by Wayne Kramer (filmmaker)
- Nominator's rationale: Needless disambiguation. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)- Oppose per associated article Wayne Kramer (filmmaker). –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)- Oppose: avoids confusion with the musician Wayne Kramer.
Category:Independent film stubs
- Nominator's rationale: Stub category and template that have likely outlived their usefulness. As always, the core purpose of stub categories is to facilitate expanding and improving the stubs enough that they can be pulled out of the stub categories -- so the most useful stub categories are ones that correspond to a community of editors with some expertise in the subject area, who can therefore collaborate on expanding the articles. But there isn't any particular community of independent film experts -- editors' areas of expertise are going to centre around countries and/or genres rather than indie status per se.
That is, there are editors who work on American films regardless of their major vs indie status, and editors who work on Japanese films regardless of their major vs indie status, and editors who specialize in science fiction films regardless of their major vs indie status, and on and so forth, but there aren't really any editors whose area of expertise is "independent films irrespective of country or genre".
This was certainly a good faith creation at the time, when we had far fewer articles about films and far fewer stub categories to group them in -- but the stub category tree is now so much more deeply granularized that this just doesn't represent a particularly useful characteristic to group stubs on anymore, because we have many more stub categories for much more specific and collaborative country and genre and time period groupings than we had in 2006.
I've already gone through the category to ensure that each article also has genre and/or nationality film stub templates on it as well, so nothing will be stranded if it goes, but it's just not at all clear that indie status is nearly as useful a basis for collaboration as the country and genre tags are. Bearcat (talk) 15:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC) Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I will tag {{Indie-film-stub}}.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:People from the Savoyard state
- Propose merging Category:People from the Savoyard state to Category:People from Savoy
- Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category Mason (talk) 23:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Smasongarrison: not very overlapping, there is quite a difference between the duchy of Savoy in the Holy Roman Empire, the "extended" Savoyard State which largely consisted of current Piedmont in Italy, and two French departments with Savoie in their name, Savoie and Haute Savoie. The category tree is quite messy but this is not the way to solve it. Perhaps a better alternative is to convert Category:People from Savoy to a disambiguation page. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I worry that making People from Savoy a disambiguation page might make it even messier. So would the FOOian century people from Savoy catergies need to be rearranged as well. I'm open to alternative solutions that tidy up this mess. Is Savoyard State really the term we should be using at all? Because it seems not be a nationality from my skimming of the category.Mason (talk) 19:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree that the centuries need to be renamed. It is a composite state, comparable to the Crown of Aragon and the United Kingdom. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I worry that making People from Savoy a disambiguation page might make it even messier. So would the FOOian century people from Savoy catergies need to be rearranged as well. I'm open to alternative solutions that tidy up this mess. Is Savoyard State really the term we should be using at all? Because it seems not be a nationality from my skimming of the category.Mason (talk) 19:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Category:Dobrujan Tatar
- Nominator's rationale: Underpopulated category. It only has two articles: Dobrujan Tatar and Dobrujan Tatar alphabet. Everything can be included in the parent Category:Crimean Tatar language, as Dobrujan Tatar is a dialect of it (and the page on the dialect already includes this category). Super Ψ Dro 23:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Surely merge, but I am not certain of the Crimean Tatar target. If that is correct, then the article should be revised in order to make it more clear. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- It might sound confusing due to the geographic names but the Crimean Khanate once extended beyond Crimea and its population was semi-nomadic from what I understand. Dobrujan Tatar is a dialect of the Crimean Tatar language, this has been discussed already at Talk:Dobrujan Tatar. Super Ψ Dro 10:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I had not checked ths talk page. From what I understand of the discussion, the merge target should be Category:Kipchak languages. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, it has been not. We are not linguist at all. I, as a speaker of this language, disagree with it. The situation of this language is not clear!!!! Maybe you hear "it's a dialect" from somewhere and act with own knowledge, this is not a solution. The language is in discussion by SIL, and they noticed that the language is different than Crimean Tatar. The discussions are in progress. Zolgoyo (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Zolgoyo: do you agree with the merge target Category:Kipchak languages instead? Marcocapelle (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle I do not understand why it needs to be merged? What's the problem of the category? There are so many categories based on language, variant, dialect etc. And the category is about "Dobrujan Tatar" and not about any other topic, how do you want to compress this category into another category? Zolgoyo (talk) 21:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Zolgoyo: the problem is that the category adds zero value to navigation. The two articles are already directly interlinked. When a reader wants to find more related articles (which is the purpose of categories) the next most related topic is Kipchak languages. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Firstly, how do you know that there won't be more pages on this topic? Secondly, this is not the only category in this situation. Each category proliferates and expands at its own pace. Why we need to close this category by making such an extremist move? Zolgoyo (talk) 13:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- We can always recreate the category if there are going to be more articles. And no, this is not extremist, this happens all the time. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Firstly, how do you know that there won't be more pages on this topic? Secondly, this is not the only category in this situation. Each category proliferates and expands at its own pace. Why we need to close this category by making such an extremist move? Zolgoyo (talk) 13:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Zolgoyo: the problem is that the category adds zero value to navigation. The two articles are already directly interlinked. When a reader wants to find more related articles (which is the purpose of categories) the next most related topic is Kipchak languages. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Marcocapelle I do not understand why it needs to be merged? What's the problem of the category? There are so many categories based on language, variant, dialect etc. And the category is about "Dobrujan Tatar" and not about any other topic, how do you want to compress this category into another category? Zolgoyo (talk) 21:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Zolgoyo: do you agree with the merge target Category:Kipchak languages instead? Marcocapelle (talk) 15:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- It might sound confusing due to the geographic names but the Crimean Khanate once extended beyond Crimea and its population was semi-nomadic from what I understand. Dobrujan Tatar is a dialect of the Crimean Tatar language, this has been discussed already at Talk:Dobrujan Tatar. Super Ψ Dro 10:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Merge target?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 01:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)