Space Opera Fans discussion

Do you like space opera that has 'girl cooties' in it? Yes, I'm talking about an obsession with relationships and those steamy love scenes that happen after you blow up the Death Star and Princess Leia throws herself into Han Solo's arms. Admit it ... if you're a girl (or a guy who enjoys a titillating read) ... sometimes you just want a little *SEX* in your space opera in between the epic battles, brushes with death and hostile aliens.

My first brush with sexual innuendo as a teenager was the Star Wars tie-in novel, Splinter of a Minds Eye.



Now that book came out before it was known that Princess Leia ended up with Han Solo, but I still remember today how warm and fuzzy it made me feel (as a teenage girl) when Luke fantasized about Leia's soft, red lips. These days, we have some super steamy fanfiction for that sort of thing, but we also have women and some progressive male authors giving us ladies a little bit of smut thrown into our rollicking good space opera tales.

[*And if you doubt me, just google 'Luke Skywalker Han Solo Slash Fanfiction...*]

So how about it ladies? We're 53% of the population and 85% of the general readership at Goodreads. So this entire Romantic folder is all yours (and for any guy brave enough to wade in amongst all the estrogen so long as y'all don't get condescending) to discuss what you like in a space opera, including HEA and what happens after that hot post-blow-up-the-galactic-bad-guy kiss!

All discussions and recommendations about space opera books that have a strong underlying romantic and/or women's issues thread are welcome to start their own posts in this 'Romantic' Space Opera folder!

[*It will help keep our 'girl cooties' off the guy's discussion threads*]

Not sure what counts as Romantic Space Opera? Some nice person made a Listopia! This list is a little sparse, so if you know of a book you feel like qualifies, add it to the open Listopia. It's about time we ladies seized our fair share of the genre!

HERE: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/4...

I don't know if I've read a 'romantic' space opera. Unless you count Shards of Honour and Barrayar. The closest I've come is reading the futuristic speculative fiction/police procedural/romantic suspense series "In Death" by J.D. Robb. Do you have any examples that are not Star Wars fiction?

I do like romance, especially with a little suspense thrown in.

Yes ... the Vorkosigan Saga is considered to have a mild, underlying romantic element to it, though it's not a romance. But it (and discussion of the romantic elements of it as well as its other traits of inclusiveness) would be an appropriate discussion topic under this sub-heading ('Romantic' Space Opera).

These have varying degrees of kick-butt heroines and romance in them ranging from HEA to a more HFN trope (happily ever after = pure romance / happy for now = urban fantasy) but they're all considered space opera in scale.

Grimspace by Ann Aguire



****

Species Imperative series by Julie E. Czerneda



*****

The Outback Stars by Sandra McDonald



*****

A little less romantic, but still a bit too 'women's space opera' to be widely popular with guy genre readers is The Gate of Ivory by Doris Egan.



And ... there's lots more. The Star Wars example was just the first sci-fi book I ever read that had a romantic element, so it has stuck in my mind for the last 30 years because I always wanted to read more of the stuff and didn't find more until many years later.

Here ... I found an existing Goodreads Listopia: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/4...

Personally, my favorite scifi romance of all time is Games of Command by Linnea Sinclair.
Games of Command

Anything by Sinclair is good. I also recommend Song of Scarabeus by Sara Creasey, but she doesn't appear to be on Goodreads. :(

Jael wrote: "Personally, my favorite scifi romance of all time is Games of Command by Linnea Sinclair.
Games of Command..."

Thanks, Jael! Will have to check it out!


Games of Command

I did find Sara Creasy here by the ignomious method of searching Amazon first. Goodreads search algorithm is clunky unless you spell the name exactly right. Here's the second book:


Children of Scarabaeus

Us geek-girls gotta hang together :-) Insist we get some nice romance in with the battlestars and light sabers :-)

Ah! My bad spelling is to blame! Not for the first time. Thanks for finding these books for me.

I'll be brave and step up. I think I have enough testosterone to protect me and allow me to escape.

I don't mind a little romance in my stories. Honestly, people being people, I think there should be some in just about every story. People fall in love and they certainly fall in lust.

However, I'm not a big fan of smut, as you call it, and certainly not slash, although not for the reasons you may think.

Smut implies graphic descriptions of sex. I'd rather imagine my own, thank you. I think of it as respecting my characters privacy. Like any nosey friend, I want to know that they are together and everything is working out. I don't want to have a threesome (or more) with them. At least, not with most of them. Grin. Sometimes it is necessary to describe the sex, to make a point. As long it is for the good of the story...

As for slash fanfic, well, first of all, I'm straight. Reading gay smut isn't going to do anything for me, and yes, I'm certain. But the major reason I'm against it, is that it is against the stated nature of the characters. It violates them to have them act in a fashion that the author didn't intend. Now if the author has stated that the characters are gay or bisexual, that doesn't bother me.

Although straight, there were many gay people around as I grew up, family and friends.

I have a number of gay and bisexual characters in my stories. I figure that in the future, it is another one of those "duh" kind of things. At least in any kind of future I'd want to see happen, GLBT etc, race, gender, haircolor, whatever, are issues of the past. People are people. Only the badguys indulge in that kind of behavior.

I really like the Vorkosigan Saga. Another that comes to mind is The Dragonriders of Pern, esp. The White Dragon (which gets mildly graphic).

I've read a few of those books on the list. Shrug.

Gateway by Frederik Pohl would probably qualify (and has a bi, male, main character lots of angst about 3-way, etc)

Sassinak by Anne McCaffrey and Elizabeth Moon has romance at times, esp. later in the series.

That's all I've got. Time to escape while I can.

Paul wrote: "Time to escape while I can...."

Hah! A hit-and-run drive posting :-)

I love Anne McCaffrey, though after The White Dragon I thought the Pern series kinda jumped the shark and lost interest. I also adore anything by Elizabeth Moon.

But ... I also like my smut! And don't mind a little slash if well-written and tasteful. But while I like my books to leave scorch-marks on my lap every hundred pages or so, I don't like the trend lately of non-stop kinky sex with only the barest trappings of a story, plot or theme around it (the '50 shades of grey' knockoffs).

In space opera I think the trope should come first, relatable characters go off on an intergalactic adventure to overcome an unbeatable force ... and then while at it, in the height of all that emotion ... a nice love story is the icing on the cake.

[*perfect pacing means every 100 pages, somebody has sex, or somebody dies...*]

I have a beard, so like a latter day Brian Blessed am immune from any metrosexual nonsense.

I always thought the Pern books had lots of emphasis on romance because the author was a girl. Could have been my teenage perspective (I've not read them again since) but there was often a lot of romance happening...and some borderline monster porn now I think about it....lots of dragon mating flights n the like etc.

I'm not reading a book for jollies so don't really want or need it, certainly not if it's doing little or nothing for the story (two people get it on, fine we can allude to that and get the point...I don't need "50 shades of Gray Roger" or whatever the sci fi equivelent is)

I guess I prefer the tech/battles/story to take precedence over the hero/heroine getting his or her royal oats....though I remember being fascinated by the relationshoips (I'm not suggesting they were actually romanitc) between the characters in the Gap series as these seemed to drive the story on and seemed very powerful parts of the tale.

Thomas wrote: "I really don't like the current trend for vampire-werewolf-rutabaga love triangles and such, where everything else is irrelevant and the sex is the whole point of the "story"..."

Hah! I burst out laughing at the rutabaga comment! Some of the proliferation of sex is because female science fiction authors are demanding stuff that THEY like in their books now (like me ... I like a little spice in my stories) and part of it is because the big publishing houses are pushing authors who otherwise wouldn't touch sex to put it in due to the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey. I like a little spice in my story, but the last time I downed a jar of peppercorns, all I did was choke! Moderation is key!

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Tim wrote: "but there was often a lot of romance happening...and some borderline monster porn now I think about it....lots of dragon mating flights n the like..."

Monster porn. Gah! My childhood favorite series is now ruined in my mind forever just like the guy who saw the girl in the centerfold in that J-geils song!

[*snicker*]

Yeah ... okay ... I'll admit it ... I kinda liked the insinuations of dragon porn and the effect it had on their riders 3:-) But I also like a good old-fashioned military science fiction story as well. After all, it's darned inconvenient to stop and 'get it on' in the middle of a firefight :-) It has to be done well or it's just another 50 Shade knockoff, which is w-a-y too hard-core, even for me :-P

Tim wrote: "50 shades of Gray Roger"

Okay. This made me choke as I was eating dinner.

What a wonderful idea! I'm serious!

A sex-romp comedy-parody about Grey Roger and his explorations of human sexuality.

It even works in context.

I'd write it if I wouldn't feel so hypocritical doing so...

Paul wrote: "Tim wrote: "50 shades of Gray Roger"

Okay. This made me choke as I was eating dinner.

What a wonderful idea! I'm serious!

A sex-romp comedy-parody about Grey Roger and his explorations of human..."

Sorry fella

I'll wager there's probably plenty of things on these lines out there already, probably less high brow in aim though

[*Anna makes no comment*]

[*wheels turn*]

[*scheme scheme scheme*]

[*takes notes for seed of future novel idea*]

I don't mind a little romance and sex in my science fiction, but I absolutely HATE with the heat of a thousand suns, romance novels set in a science fiction universe (Liaden novels, anyone?). When the setting of the novel is interchangeable (meaning the context of the novel makes as much sense in the 18th century just as it does in the 28th century), there is no need except in the hopes of duping sci fi fans for a little extra cash for the novel to be labeled science fiction. For the record, I like science fiction far more than fantasy (which I consider much of the romance genre to be and not in a magic, wizards and vampires kind of way).

Monica wrote: "When the setting of the novel is interchangeable (meaning the context of the novel makes as much sense in the 18th century just as it does in the 28th century)..."

I like a good love story, no matter what the genre, but I also like my genre-stories to also meet the non-romance aspects of the genre. If you take away the romance element and still have a story, then I'm okay with it.

Thanks for the Listopia, Anna. I'm still struggling with what defines a space opera, romantic space opera is completely beyond me and I do love discovering new things.

Sarah wrote: "I'm still struggling with what defines a space opera, romantic space opera is completely beyond me and I do love discovering new things..."

'Romantic' space opera is still an emerging sub-genre, so I think the rules will be written as we go. With many SciFi male readers moving into video gaming and movie-cgi, I suspect the next generation of literary Space Opera will be written by people who enjoy the close 'in your head' experience which can only be conveyed in a book. I'd anticipate more first-person or close-third-person point-of-view in future space opera, more romance and interpersonal relationships, and perhaps a bit more YA angst.

There -is- good stuff out there written by women, or by men who do a good job of crawling into their character's emotions and not just their deeds, so I'm hoping to see more of it in the future? I'm just providing the subversive breeding ground where people can put their heads together and scheme... 3:-) If you build it, they will come.

I used to work for Amazon.co.uk, and believe me, I'd see some pretty weird stuff.

For example, I remember once seeing a book that was "Wuthering Heights" retold as a love story between two gay men.

Can't say as I ever saw any Romantic Space Opera, but I daresay it's out there. You just know where to look.

I've long been a fan of space romance, especially if it's more than just a breast-beating, heavy breathing sex romp set in space -- though I have been known to read those on occasion). Two of my favorites are:

Restoree by Anne McCaffery. This was written in the 70s, before Pern. I read somewhere that she wrote it as a kind of experiment, that she read a lot of sci-fi, but back then all sci-fi writers were male, and she wanted to see if she could do something from the female perspective. It's about a woman of Earth who is captured by an alien race that uses humans as food. She survives and ends up on another planet where she helps to rescue the regent of the planet. I don't think it was ever a huge success, and some of the plot devices are a little hard to believe, but I still enjoy it and read it again every few years.

Shield's Lady by Amanda Glass (aka Jayne Ann Krentz). From the late 80s, this is about a planet that was settled by two crashed colony ships, one containing mostly artistic, creative types and the other containing mostly business people. The two colonies end up on different continents of the same planet without even knowing that the other group survived. The story takes place shortly after the two colonies rediscover each other, with conflicts.

I'm not sure that either of these counts as actual space opera. There is minimal military conflict, and the science is probably pretty questionable, but I think both have some interesting ideas about what might happen with "lost colonies".

Ronnie wrote: "I used to work for Amazon.co.uk, and believe me, I'd see some pretty weird stuff. For example, I remember once seeing a book that was "Wuthering Heights" retold as a love story between two gay men..."

We call that SLASH fanfiction, Ronnie ;-) It's very popular amongst a certain demographic of female readers. Only like 50 Shades some of the authors are changing the names and publishing it in the little GLBT presses who have a very loyal readership. Wuthering Heights is out-of-copyright so they wouldn't have to change the names like E.L. James did for her Twilight fanfiction.

[*want to have fun sometime? Walk into an advanced writing class full of conservative, generally older folk and try to explain to them what SLASH is 3:-) *]


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Betsy wrote: "Two of my favorites are: Restoree by Anne McCaffery. This was written in the 70s, before Pern. I read somewhere that she wrote it as a kind of experiment, that she read a lot of sci-fi, but back then all sci-fi writers were male, and she wanted to see if she could do something from the female perspective...."

OMG!!! Somebody else read Restoree!!! I loved that book! I enjoyed how McCaffery wrote how the species that cast off the aliens were suddenly given access to advanced technology, so they'd skipped over the part where most civilizations built roads and a major trade network of cities. I -so- wanted her permanent suntan!

This thread's made me scratch my head somewhat, but try as I might I can't recall reading a single space opera that has a decent bit of flirting and romance. I've found ones with badly-written romances (Century Rain, anyone?) and those that do the romantic stuff for laughs (Space Captain Smith); but even the Arthur / Fenchurch romance in So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish was lacking something. There's Barbarella, of course, but wasn't that originally a comic strip?

Yes. Barbarella was originally a comic.

Steph wrote: "This thread's made me scratch my head somewhat, but try as I might I can't recall reading a single space opera that has a decent bit of flirting and romance. I've found ones with badly-written roma..."

Think of this thread as more of an incitement to write more Space Opera with flirting and romance :-) Until now, traditional scifi/space opera has largely remained a male-oriented domain. But with the rise of indie publishing, stuff that doesn't have some stuffy old guy deciding what can and cannot be written is now being written.

Here's a quote from Beyond Heaving Bosoms: The Smart Bitches' Guide to Romance Novels:

"In fantasy or science fiction, the fate of the entire fucking universe can depend on the Happily Ever After of the hero and heroine. No pressure or anything..."

Anna wrote: "...Think of this thread as more of an incitement to write more Space Opera with flirting and romance :-)..."

Fair enough. I'm okay writing female-led space operas, but struggle a bit with romance. And not just when writing...

Steph wrote: "Fair enough. I'm okay writing female-led space operas, but struggle a bit with romance. And not just when writing..."

My stuff is a lot more epic fantasy than space opera (which is why I never toss it into the hat here), but I've got a heavy romantic element which runs through it and also some pretty explicit sex scenes now and again. The thing to remember is that guy-readers tolerance for internal romantic angst is much lower than female readers, who tend to crave it.

So ... the question really is HOW MUCH romance would enhance your space opera without going off-track or alienating potential guy readers?

I suggest you pick up one of the 'how to' reference manuals geared towards the 'sweet' romance market. On Writing Romance: How to Craft a Novel That Sells is a good all-around reference book.

At some point most space operas end up with the hero and heroine trapped in a tin can, hurtling towards a black hole, and that is always a good place to have them turn to each other and either bonk each others eyes out (if you're comfortable writing sex scenes), or reveal they've always had feelings for one another (if you're not). And then ... backtrack. Go back to what you wrote earlier and look for places you can quietly layer in some UST (unresolved sexual tension) such as the characters noticing how the other looks, or acts nervous or thoughtful, or maybe daydreams a little and then chides themselves for getting distracted.

Or ... you could just write explicit sex 3:-)

50 Shades of Space Opera

There's a difference between romance and erotica, you know. I think that nearly all books can be improved by a little romance. It adds much more humanity to the story. Add erotica, and your book is just erotica with a sci-fi twist.

The thing is that a decent space opera won't give characters time to catch their breath, let alone get down and dirty in the captain's bunk. (I agree you can always make time for a bit of flirting, though!) It's a bit like the James Bond films, in that 007 generally waits until after he's saved the world before debriefing his leading lady. Too often, romance or a sex scene in a sci-fi story just stops the action dead. I've yet to find a book that makes it work. If I was hurtling towards a black hole, sex would be the last thing on my mind...

Perhaps more science fiction than space opera, but Solaris with George Clooney is a pretty romantic movie. And Ridley Scott's Prometheus had a nice romantic subplot which, unfortunately, I felt he later botched it.

But a lot of urban fantasy these days has strong female characters who enjoy a good +u(# without any real romance the same as the guys, so why not Space Opera? Or ... you don't have to have sex and romance at all. There are a lot more issues that are near and dear to women besides men :-)

Aliens (#2) had a kick-butt heroine saving a kid, not a whole lotta romance involved.

Anna wrote: "Perhaps more science fiction than space opera, but Solaris with George Clooney is a pretty romantic movie. And Ridley Scott's Prometheus had a nice romantic subplot which, unfortunately, I felt he later botched it."

I saw Prometheus for the first time last night. For the life of me, I can't remember what the romantic subplot was! (What did I miss?) As a movie, it came across as bit of a mess.

Steph wrote: "I saw Prometheus for the first time last night. For the life of me, I can't remember what the romantic subplot was! (What did I miss?) As a movie, it came across as bit of a mess..."

A mess? Oh, yeah! It was the only movie I ever rated 1-star. Visually beautiful, yes. But a mess. As for the love subplot, Dr. Elisabeth Shaw and Charlie Holloway had a sad and tragic love story, at least long enough for the infected Holloway to unknowingly impregnate the supposedly-sterile Shaw with the alien creature. And then he had Janek burn him alive once he realized he was infected because he wanted Elisabeth to live. Like everything else in that movie, though, it all just came out as one big mess.

Steph wrote: "The thing is that a decent space opera won't give characters time to catch their breath, let alone get down and dirty in the captain's bunk. (I agree you can always make time for a bit of flirting,..."

Romanctic Space Opera is a hard mix because Romance is all about the characters journey of emotions and their growth thoughout the story. Most Space Opera's are about the world/war/events/nation, and the characters are mostly a sub to it; which is why normally at best you can get sub plot romance. A few exceptions to this such as the Vorkosigan Saga actually works as a mix because the series is 100% character focused rather then event focused.

I haven't read the book, but I'm watching the first series of the TV adaptation of The 100 (now showing in the UK!) and think the Raven, Finn and Clarke love triangle is particularly well-written. The show as a whole has plenty of drama and is what I'd regard as a space opera. So yes, it is possible!

Not a book, but BSG had love triangles all over the place. Boomer-1/Chief. Boomer-2/Helo. Starbuck/Anders. Adama/Roselyn. No.5/Baltar. I thought the love interests only added to the plot, especially because in many instances they were forbidden or -were- darned inconvenient with all the other plot stuff going on.

I was at LonCon3 last Friday and attended a session on writing YA science fiction. The "do you think romance is important" question was asked and responses were invited from teenagers in the audience. Not one young reader thought romance was necessary; many thought those sorts of stories got old fast. It made me wonder whether the glut of supernatural romances found on the YA shelves are actually aimed at the more mature readers who buy YA books...

Steph wrote: "It made me wonder whether the glut of supernatural romances found on the YA shelves are actually aimed at the more mature readers who buy YA books..."

You're probably right. I hate reading a story that has a lot of potential to be really interesting and then it goes off on some tangent for the rest of the book about how the MC is in love with this guy and Her Life Will Have No Meaning If They Aren't Together Forever...

Blah!

Monica wrote: "...I absolutely HATE with the heat of a thousand suns, romance novels set in a science fiction universe[...]. When the setting of the novel is interchangeable (meaning the context of the novel makes as much sense in the 18th century just as it does in the 28th century), there is no need except in the hopes of duping sci fi fans for a little extra cash for the novel to be labeled science fiction."


Totally agree. "People Live on Mars and Have Lots of Sex" is no more interesting to me than "People Live in Chicago and Have Lots of Sex." It's good if people live on Mars and have full and complete lives, and if that happen to include some of them being in sexual relationships, that's fine, but it better not be the only thing or even the main thing the story is about! When I pick up a science fiction novel I expect science fiction and not a romance novel set in space.

Steph wrote: "I was at LonCon3 last Friday and attended a session on writing YA science fiction. The "do you think romance is important" question was asked and responses were invited from teenagers in the audien..."

LonCon3 is a science fiction conference, though. You have to be careful judging the pure sci-fi viewership because it tends to be people shouting into an echo chamber. I also moderate the 5500-member Lovers of Paranormal GR group (which is both YA and A) and have two tweenage daughters (plus one who is now finished college) and I can say the female teenagers -ARE- going for romance in a big way.

But I can also say the reason many adults are drawn to YA is because YA stories still have a sense of hopefulness and innocence both in the plot, and also in the romances that tend to evolve in them. I think YA has morphed to meet the needs of the former 'sweet' romance market who like a nice paranormal tale without all the graphic sex.

One of the reasons science fiction is shrinking, I think, is because (as a genre) it's failed to meet the needs of that 53% of the population who like a little angst and romance in their story. And then there is the statistic that over 85% of readers of fiction are women. So ... it's evolve ... or die ... as a genre.

But that doesn't mean it should turn into a smut-fest. All sorts of angst, not just smut-angst, are also what grabs female readers. Am I good enough at my job? Am I a good friend? Am I a bad mother if I balance my career as an intergalactic smuggler with little Johnny's school recital? The ig-garp just barfed up a hairball onto the floor of my galactic cruiser, should I take him to the vet, or finish studying the science data on this wormhole.

Most people fall in love at some point in their lives, most people get married, and most people have children. People can't swashbuckle through space forever kicking butt. It gets real old. 'Pure' sci-fi has always tended to give the humanity of its characters short shrift.

Tansy wrote: "Monica wrote: "...I absolutely HATE with the heat of a thousand suns, romance novels set in a science fiction universe[...]. When the setting of the novel is interchangeable (meaning the context of..."

Then I'd have this book I read that you'd absolutely LOVE 3:-) [*not*] I got it for an R2R and had to really stretch to find something nice to say about it as I don't like leaving negative reviews. I -do- like a healthy side-helping of romance in my sci-fi, but I also like to have some sci-fi in my sci-fi (if you know what I mean).

But ... we have to be careful as ambassadors of the science fiction genre, and as women (for those of us who are women) not to cause young women to turn away from science as a career because they view it as a hard, passionless activity. Like or not, a 'Twilight in Space' tale would do more to revive scientific education for women in this country than sixteen blockbuster movies.

[*yes ... I did just say that ... bzzzt ... twitch ... bzzzt ... twitch like somebody who just got tazed ... ugh! I HATE Twilight*]

How about Katniss (Hunger Games) in space? She has brains and brawn.

No offense, but Twilight in space would be about a dumb girl that gets into a bad relationship with an abusive jerk and then proceeds to do nothing for the rest of the series. How would that help girls grow up to be scientists?

Having just gone back through college I can, with certainty, say that there are many more women in the sciences now. 20 years ago there would be one or two. Now women were 50-60 percent of my classmates.

I think you are biased Anna, because you like a little smut. Asking a romance group if they like smut is a little self-selecting. Most of my women colleagues love Doctor Who (no smut) but didn't really care for BSG.

Also, take a look at the numbers for Guardians of the Galaxy. The majority of people going to see it are women. No smut there either.

Ahh ... yes. But Starlord gave up his breather-mask to save Gamora.

[*sighhhhhhhh*]

And my point is ... the Sci-Fi section of the bookstores, the libraries, and the online stores has been shrinking for many years now. You might say people don't need something, but the fact is, people have been voting with their dollars. The sci-fi sections are shrinking because those books aren't profitable. 80% of all fiction readers are women, and the hottest-selling genre is romance. We (as sci-fi loving readers) might not like those statistics, but there they are. Scorn those statistics at your peril.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

My first love was sci-fi. I wish I had the scientific background to write 'hard' sci-fi. I only started perusing the paranormal/smut section after sci-fi became a haven of soulless tales with no internal conflict and no romance. The purely sci-fi conventions are shrinking and becoming (for the most part) the haven of white-haired, older men with Ph.D.'s. Girls in school don't want to 'do science' (and this is a battle I know first-hand since I have daughters age 10 to 28).

And your assertion that 'half of science is now women' is quite frankly wrong. It's 26% ... and it's been shrinking.

U.S. Census bureau: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea...

This is the 'girl cooties' section so I will be more outspoken about my bias here, but the reason Marvel is including more women in their superhero movies is because they found an unexpected Tony/Pepper 'Pepperony' shipping fanfiction audience when they released Iron Man 1. I know this because I'm a 'pepperony' and I've had Marvel contact me to ask me to post new chapters on my IM and CAP fan-fiction before each new movie was released. Marvel has also enlisted female 'focus groups' for each movie to make sure their future movies entice women as well as men. They're still kinda muddling their way through it, but women open their wallets in a big way when somebody writes a kick-ass sci-fi tale that satiates women's social urges without patronizing them (Black Widow, anyone? Pepper punching out the Extremis guy in IM3?). Doesn't have to be smut. DOES have to be angst and romance.

And I may hate Twilight ... but it birthed an entire sub-genre of fiction (as did the Twilight fanfiction now known as 50 Shades of Grey). Why did it reel them in? It met an unrecognized need in their readership ... the desire to have a mysterious, powerful male make you the center of their universe. Don't like it? Ewwww! Yuck!!! Flubbermuffins!!! But young women go through a phase where they start noticing boys, and from an evolutionary standpoint, all women go for the alpha-male. Like it? No? Well ... that's just the way it is. Now after a while, those same young readers move onto Urban Fantasy, where the heroines start kicking the villians butt, save the hero, and then the heroine and hero save the world together. But by that point, sci-fi as a genre has lost those young women. You didn't meet their needs in their formative years, so now their heroines slay vampires instead of aliens.

I'm just saying ... we (SOF authors and SOF readers) are SMARTER than Stephanie Meyers. I think we can craft something better and entice those young women away from the vampires and werewolves.

Anna wrote: "...I think we can craft something better and steal those young women (and men) back from the vampires and werewolves."

I see where you're coming from, now. While I'm not a fan of reading 'smut', I like a bit of unrequited love in sci-fi. TV and film has done it well (Mal and Inara in Firefly is my favourite). I still can't think of a good example in books, apart from the Isambard / Rhianna romance in the Space Captain Smith books, but even that is done more for comic effect...

I did say fellow classmates and colleagues. The American Anthropological Association: http://www.aaanet.org/resources/depar...

66% of respondents self-identified gender as female. So, no, I wasn't wrong. Women are, and have always been strongly represented in my field.

Also, in the link you provided "We have seen an increase in women employed in STEM occupations" Doesn't sound like a decrease to me so I'm not sure where you got that.

Considering Hunger Games is science fiction. I'll stick to my guns. Katniss makes a hell of a better role-model.

Romance in a story is fine, but you seem to be advocating something completely different. You want a sci-fi 50 shades of Grey? Go read the Gor novels. A lot of women liked those to, doesn't mean it was healthy or good.

Steph wrote: "Mal and Inara in Firefly is my favourite)..."

Firefly!!! [*high five*] Yeah... I'm a Browncoat :-)

Have you seen Farscape? I think you'd really enjoy that series, especially the UST between Aeryn Sung and John Chrichton which goes on for 3 seasons before they finally give us the candy (and then ... Gah! ... knife-stab!). The episode where they switched bodies was hilarious. And there was also the volatile romance between D'Argo and Chiana. The series was also great because each character had personal demons to slay, all of which unfolded in a believable manner over the course of many episodes during the series instead of the insta-love [*gag*] or episodic manner of other series. One of my favorite story lines was the bad-guy-turned-good over a quasi father/son relationship between one of the characters and an alien entity which I won't say who because it will spoil things for you if you ever watch the show.

There's a gazillion Farscape Peacekeeper tie-in novels once you've seen enough of the series to have a clue, some of them fairly well-written.

For the record:

When a romance reader says 'SMUT' they mean a highly developed story aimed towards women that includes romance, relationships, and usually sex.

It does NOT mean pornography.

Anna wrote: "It does NOT mean pornography."

The English invented smut. We know the difference between that and pornography...

Anna wrote: "Have you seen Farscape? I think you'd really enjoy that series, especially the UST between Aeryn Sung and John Chrichton which goes on for 3 seasons before they finally give us the candy (and then ... Gah! ... knife-stab!)..."

Yes! I bought the box set a few months ago and I've just started watching the third series. The 'ship full of escaped convicts on the run from an oppressive regime' is very Blake's 7 (there's even some episodes in series one with the same storylines) but the relationships and character developments are fun. I'm really enjoying it.

How about House of Suns as a Space Opera that has a well done romantic element? They realistically spend a lot of time on the space ship between events and then the options are really to get stored between destinations in cryo or something like it or have sex (or both). Its not a primarily romance, but the romance between Campion and Purslane is a strong theme throughout, and we get to share some great moments between them.

Alicja wrote: "How about House of Suns as a Space Opera that has a well done romantic element? They realistically spend a lot of time on the space ship between events and then the options are reall..."

Hmm... It's one of the few Alastair Reynolds books I haven't read yet, but ... hmmm... :-)



Six million years ago, at the dawn of the star-faring era, Abigail Gentian fractured herself into a thousand male and female clones, which she called shatterlings. But now, someone is eliminating the Gentian line. Campion and Purslane-two shatterlings who have fallen in love and shared forbidden experiences-must determine exactly who, or what, their enemy is, before they are wiped out of existence...

Ah-yup. That sounds pretty romantic :-)

Steph wrote: " I've just started watching the third series. The 'ship full of escaped convicts on the run from an oppressive regime' is very Blake's 7 (there's even some episodes in series one with the same storylines) but the relationships and character developments are fun..."

Unfortunately I never saw Blakes 7 though I've heard good things about it. But Season 3 of Farscape is some of the best space-opera television out there. And I won't say too much more as it'll spoil the fun for you, but you'll laugh and shout and bawl your eyes out and cheer :-)

I'll throw down my own book - I pitched it to Carina Press as "Firefly" meets "Best Little Whorehouse"...

XD

In the Black


Book one of Tales from the Edge

When Sam Keller left the military, she ran to the far end of the galaxy. Now she captains the Bonnie Belle, a spaceship full of courtesans who bring a little pleasure to hard-up men on mining colonies. When one of her girls turns up dead, it's Sam's job to find out who killed her, fast.

Marshal Daniel LeClair is as tough as steel and quick on the draw. But when his vacation gets replaced by an assignment to help find the killer, he can't help angling for a little action with the saucy, hard-charging Sam. She's got brains, attitude and a body he wouldn't mind investigating.

Sam, six months lonely, might just indulge him. But the Guild that owns the Belle wants the case closed yesterday. With pressure coming from all quadrants, Sam and her marshal clash over false leads and who's on top. But when the killer threatens the Belle again, romance will have to wait. It's a captain's job to save her crew, no matter the cost