July 11, 2024 • 16 mins
George Noory and Dr. Paul Smith discuss his career in the Army's remote viewing program, his encounters with Ingo Swann who created the program, and how everyone is born with this incredible ability.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast, am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori with you.
Paul Smith Back with Us. Served for seven years in
the government's Stargate Remote Viewing Psychic Espionage program at Fort Mead, Maryland,
Major US Army retired and is one of the only
five Army personnel to be personally trained to coordinate remote
viewing by doctor hal put Off and the late INGOs
(00:27):
Swan at SRI International. Besides being an operational remote viewer,
he was the primary author of the Military CRV Training
Manual served as a theory instructor for the new CRV
Traine Personnel. A desert storm veteran, Paul retired from the
Army in ninety six founded Remote Viewing Instructental Services, which
(00:50):
offers full service remote viewing training. He continues to write
teach consultant lecture in the remote viewing field. A couple
of his books include The Essential Guide Remote Viewing and
Reading the Enemy's Mind And PAULA was great seeing you
at contact in the desert.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
That was fun, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It really was? You moved. I hear you're in Utah.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Now, yes, yep, it's a lot cooler up here than
it was in Austin.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Did you remote view it before you moved.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
No, I used to drive through here when I was
on my way to college.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well that's great.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
How have you been, well, I'd say, fine. I'm right
now sitting in a recliner with ice pack on my
hip where I just had a hip replacement replacement.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Oh you did, what happened?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well? The first hip replacement I had back in Austin
almost eleven years ago. Now, it turned out was made
of some bad materials. I ended up with a bunch
of cobalts in my system. Oh yeah, so they had
to replace it almost three weeks ago. And I'll tell you,
I already feel way better than I was feeling even
(01:59):
right there when I was in contact. You know, this
was before the surgery, but I knew it was coming up,
and I still managed to talk to my doctors and
to let me come.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Truly remarkable what they can do now with human parts
in artificial prestiges and stuff like that. I know a
guy who owns a company that makes arms and limbs
and legs, and he said, it's truly remarkable. It's digital now,
where computers even control your movements.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You know that is a miracle. I mean, if you
think fifty years ago what we couldn't do and how
miserable life was then, but most people didn't realize how
miserable it was in comparison to what it could be.
And nice, it's nice that we've made progress.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, tell us how you got involved with roroaldioing.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well. I was an Army intelligence officer and after a
tour in Germany, I got stationed at Fort met Maryland
to be a spy, so to speak. And at the
time I'd never put the words remote and viewing together.
I'd never heard of it. Most people hadn't, but I
(03:13):
was lucky enough to move in. They assigned me quarters
right next door to skip out Water, it turned out,
was the training and operations officer for the Remote VIEWNI unit,
and across the street from Tom McNair, who was at
that time being trained by Ingo Swan. I had no
idea what they did, but I also had no idea.
(03:34):
They were kind of keeping their eye on me because
they were looking for new remote viewer candidates. And one
day they came to my door and said, hey, we
think you might be good to what we do. And
I said, well what do you do? And they said,
we can't tell you. And I said, I've got all
the clernches you can get almost and you can't tell
me Nope. I said, well, how do you know if
(03:56):
I'd be good at it or not? They said, we're
going to give you some task, but we think you'll
do all right. And you know, and apparently I passed
because they took me over and sat me down and
read me onto the remote viewing program and asked you
if I wanted to volunteer, and I absolutely wanted to volunteer.
It sounded like the most exciting thing I've heard in
a long time.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Tell people what remote viewing is, Paul.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Remote Viewing is actually a skill that one can develop.
It's based on an underlying ability everybody's got. Everybody can
you know? People say, well, you have to have a
gift to be psychic, and the truth is, yes, you do.
But everybody has that gift. We're born with it, but
we oftentimes don't know how to use it. Remote Viewing
(04:43):
is a way of teaching you how to use it
and then helping give structure and discipline to the process,
so you increase your accuracy and your reliability. So it's
kind of like I like to I'd like to say it,
it's like controlled or discipline clear lands.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
And at what point did you meet Ingo Swan, the
late Ingo Swan.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
So I was brought into the unit on the first
of August nineteen eighty three, and they kept telling me
stories that you know, come January, you're going to go
through your training and you're going to meet Ingo Swan
and he's going to scare you to death. He kept
(05:27):
talking about how strict he was and how he didn't
brook any nonsense, and you better have all your ducks
in a row and do exactly what he says or
things won't go comfortably for you. And so when it
came time to meet him, I got off the plane
in San franciscoing and drove down to Mental Park to
(05:51):
SRI International and we went to lunch with Ingo Swan
and he was wearing tweet jacket and harness boots and
Levi's and he was very friendly and very engaging and
very interesting and it wasn't at all like I had expected.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That came later truly remarkable. How did he get involved
in remote viewing in the first place.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Ingo, Yeah, Ingo invented remote viewing.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
He was the guy.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
He was the guy. He is the father of remote viewing.
Sometimes he preferred the term grandfather, but he was the
father of remote viewing. He was the one that came
up with the idea for the protocol, and he's the
one that ultimately developed the most, the most grounded and
prevalent method of remote viewing. And other people sometimes get
(06:47):
given credit for it. In fact, I was reading a
document the other day that said that hal put Off
an Ingo Swan who I mean, sorry, Hal put off
In Russell Tark who truly deserved a lot of credit.
But it said that they invented And of course that
wasn't true at all, and neither one of them would
have would have claimed to have invented it. They all
knew that Ingoswan was the one that came up with
(07:08):
the whole notion of remote hearing.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
My late aunt, doctor Shoshika cor Regula new Ingo. Yeah,
and they were very close.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yes, well, she was an amazing woman.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah she was.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I've got her book, Breakthrough the Creativity, But George, I
have to ask your forgiveness. I haven't yet read it.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
How long have you had it? It's about forty years old.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah. I didn't get it back there. I've got it
more recently. In fact, I got it on your recommendation
a few years back.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
When you were on the show. I think I remember.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Saying, yeah, you brought that book up, and I said,
I've got to get it.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
So in one of Ingo's books he makes mention of
my aunt. He was really something else. He was one
of you guys. Was he a fun guy to be around?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
He could be very fun. Yeah, he could very very fun.
It turned out he could be very strict too, and
demanding and he didn't did not brook any nonsense. But
there were times, you know, we went For example, he
loved to go to what he called training films. So
we'd worked pretty hard on the remote viewing process, and
(08:24):
then in the afternoon he'd say, we need to go
to a training film, and so we saw First Run
the Terminator, Firestarter, go on Blanket on the name of
that one read Dawn. He enjoyed going and seeing a
film right now, and then as a oh, Ghostbusters, I
(08:46):
can't leave Ghostbusters outters huh oh, yeah, yeah, we went
to that show in Midtown Manhattan, theater in Midtown Manhattan,
and when we left the theater there was somebody selling
Ghostbuster T shirts on the sidewalk, and so we all
had to get one.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Now, I'm sure people practiced remote viewing before it was
officially called that, right.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Well, certainly there were similar things that people did. People
talked about Shawmans did some kind of remote viewing, and
they talked about traveling. Clairvoyance is essentially being another name
for remote viewing and so on. But in fact there
are a few distinctions between the two. And people getting
(09:30):
arguments all the time about this, you know, is it
really anything different? And the way you can go originally
proposed the protocol, So we have to talk about two
different things. One is method, which is what you do
when you're doing remote viewing. The other's protocol, and that's
the conditions under which you do remote viewing. So it's scientific.
(09:53):
It's a very scientific based thing. And he had a
number of different experimental paradigms that you followed recipes essentially
to uh to how what you did to make it
remote hearing, and those are distinctly different from any other
(10:14):
psychic or esp based discipline.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Was he born with his gift?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Well, remember what I said, everybody's born with it, but yeah,
he developed it himself. He didn't. He didn't get taught
of that although. So he was born in tell you Ride, Colorado.
He was a Westerner, and he was born in tell
you Write, Colorado, and then he grew up in Utah,
which is the state I live in now. He spent
his teenagers, teenage and young adult years here and went
(10:42):
to college in in Salt Lake at Westminster College. And
uh and uh. So he was a Westerner, but he
was born in in uh intel your Ride, and he
lived with his maternal grandmother and his parents, and he
kept having these things, which he later learned were out
of body experiences, and he'd report them, and his mom,
(11:05):
who didn't want to believe in any of that stuff,
kind of shutting down. But his grandmother had had similar
experiences and she encouraged him. So he started off having
these out of boudy experiences. And later on, after he
had gone to college and spent three years in the
army in Korea and then moved to New York, where
(11:28):
he wanted to establish himself as an artist. He had
to have a day job, and so he was working
as a admin assistant at the UN the United Nations.
While I was there, he got involved in some scientific
research at the City College of New York and the
American Society Cyclical Research, where academics were studying ESP type phenomena,
(11:54):
and one of them he mentioned that he'd had out
of Boudy experiences, and so that's how he got in
on that. Carlsosis, who was running the aspr's program researching
out of out experiences, recruited EGO for that, and that's
how he got into the actual scientific research field involving parapsychology.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So he was psychically inclined from the get go, wasn't
he He.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Was pretty much you know, how early did it start,
I don't know, but certainly by the time he was,
you know, maybe four or five, he was certainly having experiences.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Did the government develop its remote viewing program to augment
what the Soviets were doing? Who came first?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Well? That sounds like a Lauren Hardy routine, doesn't it,
he does, Well, that's an interesting story. So by most
accounts of the United States, United States came first, but
didn't know it had come first. And you say, what
(13:01):
what does that mean? Well, there was a story in
one of the major news magazines about a psychic experiment
involving the USS Nouveilus, which of course was the first
nuclear submarine that the United States was undertook to establish
communications with submarines when they were submerged under the ice
cap or whatever. And it turned out that that story
(13:23):
probably wasn't true. But the Russians the Soviets heard about it.
They believed it scared to be Jesus out of them,
because if we could do that, then we had a
major advantage over them, right, So they started experimenting with
this stuff, and of course there were there were other
h what we would call paranormal phenomena that they had
(13:47):
pursued also, and they had a major program in this.
They were spending one hundred million dollars two hundred million
dollars a whack on what we would call paranormal research,
which is interesting because that puts into perspective one of
the criticisms of the US program. You get a lot
of the skeptics out there say, you guys wasted so
(14:09):
much money on researching esp. Twenty twenty five million dollars. Well,
the Russians are spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and
if you think about it, one F thirty five costs
about I think they're down to about thirty five million. Now,
one F thirty five fighter costs more than all the
(14:31):
money that the US government put into ESPU research over
more than a over a back quarter of a century work.
It's just kind of mind boggling anyway. Yeah, so the
Russians threw a whole lot of money into this, and
the CIA, not realizing what had happened, suddenly discovered that
they were doing a lot of research into these fields.
(14:55):
And of course the CIA didn't necessarily believe it at all.
There were some folks there who found it interesting, but
their job is to go out and research stuff and
find out about stuff that could hurt United States security.
And if the Russians are spending a lot of money
on this kind of thing, they must have had a reason.
(15:16):
And so the CIA was obligated to look into it.
And so that's kind of how this thing got off
the ground in the first place.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
What kind of hits did your program develop and what
kind of hits do you think the Russians got?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
You know, I can't speak to the Russians as far
as I know none of the data from any of
their you know, in terms of any of their remote
viewing attempts that has been released now as far as
I know now, the real expert on that is a
may and he's had a couple of exchange visits with
them and has talked about some of the recent stuff
(15:49):
they've been doing. But I haven't heard him say anything
about what they accomplished, and they may well be close
lipped about that because they don't want us know all
their secrets even now, especially now those things have turned
around there obviously, But with us, we've had some had
some really good successes. Now, I'm always quick to say
(16:10):
it doesn't always work. You hear all the stories about
how successful was. You don't hear the stories about circumstances
or situations or projects where it failed. It's it did,
it did, But we did have some really noted successes.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
dot com for more
Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast, am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori with you.
Paul Smith Back with Us. Served for seven years in
the government's Stargate Remote Viewing Psychic Espionage program at Fort Mead, Maryland,
Major US Army retired and is one of the only
five Army personnel to be personally trained to coordinate remote
viewing by doctor hal put Off and the late INGOs
(00:27):
Swan at SRI International. Besides being an operational remote viewer,
he was the primary author of the Military CRV Training
Manual served as a theory instructor for the new CRV
Traine Personnel. A desert storm veteran, Paul retired from the
Army in ninety six founded Remote Viewing Instructental Services, which
(00:50):
offers full service remote viewing training. He continues to write
teach consultant lecture in the remote viewing field. A couple
of his books include The Essential Guide Remote Viewing and
Reading the Enemy's Mind And PAULA was great seeing you
at contact in the desert.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
That was fun, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It really was? You moved. I hear you're in Utah.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Now, yes, yep, it's a lot cooler up here than
it was in Austin.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Did you remote view it before you moved.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
No, I used to drive through here when I was
on my way to college.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well that's great.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
How have you been, well, I'd say, fine. I'm right
now sitting in a recliner with ice pack on my
hip where I just had a hip replacement replacement.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Oh you did, what happened?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well? The first hip replacement I had back in Austin
almost eleven years ago. Now, it turned out was made
of some bad materials. I ended up with a bunch
of cobalts in my system. Oh yeah, so they had
to replace it almost three weeks ago. And I'll tell you,
I already feel way better than I was feeling even
(01:59):
right there when I was in contact. You know, this
was before the surgery, but I knew it was coming up,
and I still managed to talk to my doctors and
to let me come.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Truly remarkable what they can do now with human parts
in artificial prestiges and stuff like that. I know a
guy who owns a company that makes arms and limbs
and legs, and he said, it's truly remarkable. It's digital now,
where computers even control your movements.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You know that is a miracle. I mean, if you
think fifty years ago what we couldn't do and how
miserable life was then, but most people didn't realize how
miserable it was in comparison to what it could be.
And nice, it's nice that we've made progress.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, tell us how you got involved with roroaldioing.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Well. I was an Army intelligence officer and after a
tour in Germany, I got stationed at Fort met Maryland
to be a spy, so to speak. And at the
time I'd never put the words remote and viewing together.
I'd never heard of it. Most people hadn't, but I
(03:13):
was lucky enough to move in. They assigned me quarters
right next door to skip out Water, it turned out,
was the training and operations officer for the Remote VIEWNI unit,
and across the street from Tom McNair, who was at
that time being trained by Ingo Swan. I had no
idea what they did, but I also had no idea.
(03:34):
They were kind of keeping their eye on me because
they were looking for new remote viewer candidates. And one
day they came to my door and said, hey, we
think you might be good to what we do. And
I said, well what do you do? And they said,
we can't tell you. And I said, I've got all
the clernches you can get almost and you can't tell
me Nope. I said, well, how do you know if
(03:56):
I'd be good at it or not? They said, we're
going to give you some task, but we think you'll
do all right. And you know, and apparently I passed
because they took me over and sat me down and
read me onto the remote viewing program and asked you
if I wanted to volunteer, and I absolutely wanted to volunteer.
It sounded like the most exciting thing I've heard in
a long time.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Tell people what remote viewing is, Paul.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Remote Viewing is actually a skill that one can develop.
It's based on an underlying ability everybody's got. Everybody can
you know? People say, well, you have to have a
gift to be psychic, and the truth is, yes, you do.
But everybody has that gift. We're born with it, but
we oftentimes don't know how to use it. Remote Viewing
(04:43):
is a way of teaching you how to use it
and then helping give structure and discipline to the process,
so you increase your accuracy and your reliability. So it's
kind of like I like to I'd like to say it,
it's like controlled or discipline clear lands.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
And at what point did you meet Ingo Swan, the
late Ingo Swan.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
So I was brought into the unit on the first
of August nineteen eighty three, and they kept telling me
stories that you know, come January, you're going to go
through your training and you're going to meet Ingo Swan
and he's going to scare you to death. He kept
(05:27):
talking about how strict he was and how he didn't
brook any nonsense, and you better have all your ducks
in a row and do exactly what he says or
things won't go comfortably for you. And so when it
came time to meet him, I got off the plane
in San franciscoing and drove down to Mental Park to
(05:51):
SRI International and we went to lunch with Ingo Swan
and he was wearing tweet jacket and harness boots and
Levi's and he was very friendly and very engaging and
very interesting and it wasn't at all like I had expected.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
That came later truly remarkable. How did he get involved
in remote viewing in the first place.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Ingo, Yeah, Ingo invented remote viewing.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
He was the guy.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
He was the guy. He is the father of remote viewing.
Sometimes he preferred the term grandfather, but he was the
father of remote viewing. He was the one that came
up with the idea for the protocol, and he's the
one that ultimately developed the most, the most grounded and
prevalent method of remote viewing. And other people sometimes get
(06:47):
given credit for it. In fact, I was reading a
document the other day that said that hal put Off
an Ingo Swan who I mean, sorry, Hal put off
In Russell Tark who truly deserved a lot of credit.
But it said that they invented And of course that
wasn't true at all, and neither one of them would
have would have claimed to have invented it. They all
knew that Ingoswan was the one that came up with
(07:08):
the whole notion of remote hearing.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
My late aunt, doctor Shoshika cor Regula new Ingo. Yeah,
and they were very close.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yes, well, she was an amazing woman.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah she was.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
I've got her book, Breakthrough the Creativity, But George, I
have to ask your forgiveness. I haven't yet read it.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
How long have you had it? It's about forty years old.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah. I didn't get it back there. I've got it
more recently. In fact, I got it on your recommendation
a few years back.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
When you were on the show. I think I remember.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Saying, yeah, you brought that book up, and I said,
I've got to get it.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
So in one of Ingo's books he makes mention of
my aunt. He was really something else. He was one
of you guys. Was he a fun guy to be around?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
He could be very fun. Yeah, he could very very fun.
It turned out he could be very strict too, and
demanding and he didn't did not brook any nonsense. But
there were times, you know, we went For example, he
loved to go to what he called training films. So
we'd worked pretty hard on the remote viewing process, and
(08:24):
then in the afternoon he'd say, we need to go
to a training film, and so we saw First Run
the Terminator, Firestarter, go on Blanket on the name of
that one read Dawn. He enjoyed going and seeing a
film right now, and then as a oh, Ghostbusters, I
(08:46):
can't leave Ghostbusters outters huh oh, yeah, yeah, we went
to that show in Midtown Manhattan, theater in Midtown Manhattan,
and when we left the theater there was somebody selling
Ghostbuster T shirts on the sidewalk, and so we all
had to get one.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Now, I'm sure people practiced remote viewing before it was
officially called that, right.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Well, certainly there were similar things that people did. People
talked about Shawmans did some kind of remote viewing, and
they talked about traveling. Clairvoyance is essentially being another name
for remote viewing and so on. But in fact there
are a few distinctions between the two. And people getting
(09:30):
arguments all the time about this, you know, is it
really anything different? And the way you can go originally
proposed the protocol, So we have to talk about two
different things. One is method, which is what you do
when you're doing remote viewing. The other's protocol, and that's
the conditions under which you do remote viewing. So it's scientific.
(09:53):
It's a very scientific based thing. And he had a
number of different experimental paradigms that you followed recipes essentially
to uh to how what you did to make it
remote hearing, and those are distinctly different from any other
(10:14):
psychic or esp based discipline.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Was he born with his gift?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Well, remember what I said, everybody's born with it, but yeah,
he developed it himself. He didn't. He didn't get taught
of that although. So he was born in tell you Ride, Colorado.
He was a Westerner, and he was born in tell
you Write, Colorado, and then he grew up in Utah,
which is the state I live in now. He spent
his teenagers, teenage and young adult years here and went
(10:42):
to college in in Salt Lake at Westminster College. And
uh and uh. So he was a Westerner, but he
was born in in uh intel your Ride, and he
lived with his maternal grandmother and his parents, and he
kept having these things, which he later learned were out
of body experiences, and he'd report them, and his mom,
(11:05):
who didn't want to believe in any of that stuff,
kind of shutting down. But his grandmother had had similar
experiences and she encouraged him. So he started off having
these out of boudy experiences. And later on, after he
had gone to college and spent three years in the
army in Korea and then moved to New York, where
(11:28):
he wanted to establish himself as an artist. He had
to have a day job, and so he was working
as a admin assistant at the UN the United Nations.
While I was there, he got involved in some scientific
research at the City College of New York and the
American Society Cyclical Research, where academics were studying ESP type phenomena,
(11:54):
and one of them he mentioned that he'd had out
of Boudy experiences, and so that's how he got in
on that. Carlsosis, who was running the aspr's program researching
out of out experiences, recruited EGO for that, and that's
how he got into the actual scientific research field involving parapsychology.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So he was psychically inclined from the get go, wasn't
he He.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Was pretty much you know, how early did it start,
I don't know, but certainly by the time he was,
you know, maybe four or five, he was certainly having experiences.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Did the government develop its remote viewing program to augment
what the Soviets were doing? Who came first?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Well? That sounds like a Lauren Hardy routine, doesn't it,
he does, Well, that's an interesting story. So by most
accounts of the United States, United States came first, but
didn't know it had come first. And you say, what
(13:01):
what does that mean? Well, there was a story in
one of the major news magazines about a psychic experiment
involving the USS Nouveilus, which of course was the first
nuclear submarine that the United States was undertook to establish
communications with submarines when they were submerged under the ice
cap or whatever. And it turned out that that story
(13:23):
probably wasn't true. But the Russians the Soviets heard about it.
They believed it scared to be Jesus out of them,
because if we could do that, then we had a
major advantage over them, right, So they started experimenting with
this stuff, and of course there were there were other
h what we would call paranormal phenomena that they had
(13:47):
pursued also, and they had a major program in this.
They were spending one hundred million dollars two hundred million
dollars a whack on what we would call paranormal research,
which is interesting because that puts into perspective one of
the criticisms of the US program. You get a lot
of the skeptics out there say, you guys wasted so
(14:09):
much money on researching esp. Twenty twenty five million dollars. Well,
the Russians are spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and
if you think about it, one F thirty five costs
about I think they're down to about thirty five million. Now,
one F thirty five fighter costs more than all the
(14:31):
money that the US government put into ESPU research over
more than a over a back quarter of a century work.
It's just kind of mind boggling anyway. Yeah, so the
Russians threw a whole lot of money into this, and
the CIA, not realizing what had happened, suddenly discovered that
they were doing a lot of research into these fields.
(14:55):
And of course the CIA didn't necessarily believe it at all.
There were some folks there who found it interesting, but
their job is to go out and research stuff and
find out about stuff that could hurt United States security.
And if the Russians are spending a lot of money
on this kind of thing, they must have had a reason.
(15:16):
And so the CIA was obligated to look into it.
And so that's kind of how this thing got off
the ground in the first place.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
What kind of hits did your program develop and what
kind of hits do you think the Russians got?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
You know, I can't speak to the Russians as far
as I know none of the data from any of
their you know, in terms of any of their remote
viewing attempts that has been released now as far as
I know now, the real expert on that is a
may and he's had a couple of exchange visits with
them and has talked about some of the recent stuff
(15:49):
they've been doing. But I haven't heard him say anything
about what they accomplished, and they may well be close
lipped about that because they don't want us know all
their secrets even now, especially now those things have turned
around there obviously, But with us, we've had some had
some really good successes. Now, I'm always quick to say
(16:10):
it doesn't always work. You hear all the stories about
how successful was. You don't hear the stories about circumstances
or situations or projects where it failed. It's it did,
it did, But we did have some really noted successes.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
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