June 28, 2024 • 50 mins
Shannen and Katherine not only admire each other, they have a lot in common.
They both started in this business at a young age, they were both slammed for being outspoken, and they both learned that staying true to themselves was the only way to go.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Hi everyone,
welcome to a new episode of Let's Be Clear with
Shita and Doherty. I am over the moon right now
because I have somebody that I have admired for a
long time. Catherine Heigel, Like you guys know her twenty
seven dresses, knocked up like Grey's Anatomy, Barflying Lane. Just
(00:27):
her resume is insane, Hi, Kathy, but also she's insane.
She's definitely well, I should just say it to your face.
You're someone that I have definitely looked up to, and
I admire your strength. I admire you know, your perseverance
as a woman as an actor. You just the amount
(00:50):
of self respect you have and the caring you have
for you know, your other actors, like now as a
producer and really watching out for women is astonishing to me.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Oh my god. Well, I didn't know I was coming
in for this kind of intro. I'm very uh, I'm
feeling very very good about myself at this good. That
was so nice and means means what it means a lot.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah. Well, I mean listen, I had gone I sort
of there's a lot of similarities between us that aren't
instantly recognizable to a lot of people. But like when
I really looked at you and broke everything down, and
you know, I was like the biggest Grays fan and
(01:39):
Izzy and I was like, oh my god, we're really
getting Catherine on the show. I just sort of looked
at it and went, wow, there were there were only
a few women back then that stood up for themselves.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well you were the original, right, Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I mean I got fired for it multiple times. You know,
you just you kept going and it was really impressive.
I mean, I don't know any person except for you
that turns down an Immy nomination.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well I didn't, and everybody keeps saying that I didn't
turn it down. You know, you have to submit yourself.
You have to submit your work and then they deliberate
and then they decide if they want to give you
a nomination. I just didn't submit my work that year.
And I should you know, I don't know. My mother
and I were talking about this recently. I should have
said nothing. I should have said nothing. I should have
(02:36):
just said oh I forgot, because it created such a
maelstrom that was so unnecessary, and it really was. Yeah,
I was kind of trying to make a bit of
a snarky point about my material that year, but I
was also just not feeling my material. I didn't think
I had anything that warranted even the consideration for a nomination.
(02:58):
I just wasn't proud of my work. So it was really,
you know, I would never be so bold or so
arrogant to turn down a nomination. I would take that nomination.
I became my way. I'd be down, but I just knew,
you know, there wasn't anything that would really warrant one
(03:21):
that year, and I was trying to be honorable. I
guess I was trying to have some integrity. I wasn't
trying to be a dick.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
But you know what's funny is that had it been
obviously a guy, they would have said like, oh, look
at how honorable he is, like and instead because you're
a woman, and you know, certainly back then it was
a lot different than it is now. Although I'm the
naysayer who's like, we haven't really changed that much in
(03:50):
the business, you guys, not a ton.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
It's just a little more subversive now.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
It's a little more Yes, yes, they like to be
a little bit more quiet about it. Of how you know,
the men still really lead the charge and women have
a role to play. And yes, there are brave women
like you that have bucked against that and said, not
even trying to be you know, arroant, which they want
(04:16):
to call you, not trying to be difficult do they
want to call you? I've been called all of these
things as well. I get that, but it's it's none
of that. It's the fact that you're just trying to
be truthful to yourself right and hold yourself to a
certain standards.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, it was always about that, and I'm very fortunate
I have my mother who has always been, you know,
my biggest support system and also my partner in all
of this. We are, you know, business partners, and so
I always had another strong woman who kind of had
my back and like somebody to bounce it off of.
(04:52):
And sometimes we would rile each other up, no doubt,
but most of the time it was like I just
felt like the right thing to do and the right
thing to say, and she was like, yeah, I got you,
You're right, you know. And so I don't know that
I would have been quite so forthright without the support,
you know, I would have been more afraid. I think,
(05:14):
but I don't know. It's shamed me for a long time.
I spent probably, I want to say, like all of
my mid thirties, oh like from thirty five to forty,
I spent just trying to be as quiet and as
polite and as sweet and as just kind of disappearing
(05:36):
as much as possible, and it still didn't work. So
then I, I don't know, I hit forty and I
went fuck this. But life is really too short, and
you know, I, like you said, I just want to
I just want to be true to myself. I'm not
trying to make I never never go out there with
(05:57):
the intention of ever making anybody else feel bad or
to bully them, or to upset them or hurt feelings.
That's so outside my intention. I'm sure I have on
occasion by mistake or accident, but I will. I don't
like being bullied either, and I don't have a very
(06:23):
sort of calm, political rational reaction to that. I tend
to I tend to get out my boxing gloves.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So yeah, I mean, I completely understand that. And again
I applaud you for it, because you know, like I was,
I think I was freshly fired off of charmed when
like Grays started and I watched it, and obviously I
was a big fan of the show. But then with
(06:52):
you and your character, there is such a vulnerability to
Izzy that you brought to that character, but also like
a strength to her that was very that I think women,
particularly young younger women needed that role to like see
(07:12):
and to really understand what you could do. And then
it wasn't about like sleeping your way somewhere, you know,
it was about her determination in her life, all done
in this you know, very funny way. There was just
such a humor about you on that show along with
the vulnerability that was like wow, you know, that's great,
(07:36):
Like what a character to have during that time.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, she was great. And I think that, you know,
so much of that is attributed to to Shonda and
her creation of these characters. So much of it is
attributed to the sort of lightning in a bottle of
that cast together at that time, which again was kind
of Shonda, you know, figuring out this. Some of it
(08:02):
is you can't know, you don't know how it's going
to quite kind of come together and how it's going
to work, but it just did. And then as I
think the writers got to know us more individually, like
Izzy sort of that's who I was at that age.
I mean I was twenty four, I think when the
show started, and I was thirty two maybe or thirty
(08:27):
one when I left. I was Izzy. You know, I
was really insecure. I was, but also I still had
that fight in me. I still didn't like it when
people kind of pushed me around or told me I
couldn't or told me I shouldn't or told me, you
know that I wouldn't be able to kind of think
I so a lot of who she was. And it
(08:52):
was funny because I wouldn't have said that at the time,
but now looking back at her, I think, you know,
that was that was kind of who I was. Then.
There was a lot of just young woman in security,
you know, just not really knowing if I had a
right to like take up space.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But also conviction, Like there just seemed to me with
you and your character that there was a lot of
conviction in being truthful and in doing what you know,
you really felt was right, whether it be cutting that
bad there you.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Go, Juriel bad. I will never not know that word.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But like that was, you know, for your character, that
was a huge thing and it really showed like your
love for this man and your conviction for what you
believed to be the right thing, which I always sort
of paralleled to you as a human of like, wow,
you know, Catherine's gonna stand up for what she really
believes is right, which, again, particularly for back then, that
(09:59):
was like a very big thing. And on an ensemble
cast for a show that sort of came out huge
right away, it was incredibly popular. I just you know
that that could not have been easy for you.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I think it was. It was easy until it wasn't,
you know, because there was a moment when it sort
of depended on what I was standing up for, right
So when I was sort of standing up for my
co star and you know, coming out against bigotry and
that sort of thing, it was, you know, applauded and appreciated.
(10:36):
When I stood for myself, it wasn't quite taken quite
the same way. And so then it stopped being easy
to be to do that, to speak my truth. Then
I then I just ship hell up as much as
I could for a long time, and I pretty much
just ran away. And so I love you so much
(11:00):
for speaking to my strength, But I wasn't. I think
sometimes I was, but I was also sometimes just deeply,
I just was deeply insecure and afraid that all those
opinions that had so quickly shifted were true, you know,
(11:21):
that those opinions meant more than my own opinion of myself.
And it took me till about forty to really to stop,
you know, to stop apologizing, to stop beating myself up
about it, to stop regretting the choices and decisions i'd
made in the things I'd said, and kind of just
learn and move forward. And it gave me a clarity
(11:45):
about like, Okay, there are some things I don't need
to get real mouthy about. You know, some things can
remain behind closed doors, but there are things I will
be very loud about and screw the consequences quite frankly.
Like it taught me that I just, yeah, I want
to be able to sleep at night like anybody else.
(12:06):
I want to not feel like I just played a
game the whole time. It's not a game to me.
You know, Hollywood is complicated. I'm sure many industries are,
but it's it's not a game. And I'm not a politician,
(12:30):
so I'm not good at that. I decided I don't
care if I am or not.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, I mean I think if you think about back
then as well, those voices that were telling you that
you were wrong or you know, making you into a
villain or spoiled or whatever. If they, you know, the
majority of them, Let's face it, our networks will run
by men. And I think that from personally. I look
(13:01):
back and I'm like, well, they never really liked a
very strong woman. They really liked women to know their place.
Like I was told to, you know, shut up and
get on my mark multiple times by somebody at Aaron
Spellings Company, and I be like, wait, what you don't
pay me enough to do that. Yeah, you know, like
if you want me to be completely quiet and not
(13:23):
have an opinion, you have to pay me a lot
more money. So I sound better about going to work, right,
Otherwise I need to have an opinion. I need to
have a say. I need to, you know, stand up
for the fact that the crew is working way too
long of hours that you know, the actors were working
long hours. You know, sixteen hour days is insane because
(13:44):
what people don't realize is that it's you know, I
always lived an hour away from where I was filming,
so for me, it was really an eighteen hour day. Yeah,
at least at least and when you get home, you're
all like, you know, sped up and jack and you're
thinking about your day and what work you did, so
you can't go to bed right away. It's exhausting. Yeah,
(14:06):
and you just keep doing that five days a week,
and you know, your weekends, you end up having no life.
I know for us it was, you know, lots of
publicity on the weekends and photo shoots and when you
are that woman who finally looks at people and says,
this is enough. You cannot abuse the crew, you can't
(14:29):
abuse us as cast members, it doesn't go over so well.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
No, it's bizarre. It's actually a bizarre reaction. To me,
I don't really totally understand it because I think, well,
whuldn't it save you money to do this more expediently,
Like what, I don't understand the reaction. You know, it's
such a strange industry and that it's business, but it's
(14:54):
creative and it's a creative collaboration. It's not a one woman,
one man show, not when it's television or film or
most Broadway. I mean, I'm sure there are a few
one woman shows that work, but this was this takes
everybody's collective effort and it's a million moving parts. I
(15:15):
understand that that that can take a minute to find
a rhythm, but it should take no more than a minute. Months,
you know, this is and it just costs them more
money in the long run. I never quite understood what
this sort of shut up and don't bite the hand
that feeds you mentality was. It was like, well, you're
(15:38):
just you're just wasting money, like as a sort of
producer inside, because I love producing and I like have
like I really love organization, and I'm like, I got
a plan, I got a plan. I know exactly how
we can do this. And it's like, no, let's make
it as chaotic and you know, crazy and exhausting and
(15:58):
dangerous and and cost as much as possible. That sounds
like a bad plan.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, let's move the camera thirty times for you know,
one scene. It's a very bizarre thing that I would
notice with some of our guest directors. They would come
in and it was it was as if they had
not worked before, even though they were successful and they
had worked, but they were all about like, this is
my time and I'm going to stretch it as much
(16:26):
as I want. And on like our fourteen, I would
be like, are you kidding? Yeah, Like we don't need
to do ten takes. We're all professionals here. We nailed
it on the first take. And why do you have
you know, four different close ups of me? Like my
face is not that interesting. We don't need this.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It only makes so many expressions.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Right, like it was. Really it would get very frustrating,
and I was pretty vocal about it. I also was,
you know, second season, I started directing, and I was
a really fast director. I was one of those that
you know, one time I wrapped before lunch. We started
at seven, I got done at twelve and they were like,
you can't wrap this early, and I was like, yeah,
(17:09):
but I've already shot scenes from tomorrow, so like we're
not going to have anything to shoot tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
But they should love that.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, they should have loved that because.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It saves them so much money and production is crazy expensive,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
And it gives a crew a break, you know, all
of a sudden, they work safer and more efficiently, and
you know, the actors, when we're refreshed, we have time
to like go home and have a life and learn
our lines and our scene and our character more. We
have just more time to put into the show to
(17:44):
make it better. Yet it was like no, no, no,
you can't. You know, wrap before twelve hours and I
had no clue how to make it last until twelve hours.
It was like I just I can't. I can't do this,
Like it's going to be I'm going to be quick
and you guys are going to have to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Well, you sound like my dream. So I want to
direct me.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm in Well, I'll direct you anytime. It would be
a huge honor. I got to ask you something because
another thing I admire about you. You have a animal
(18:28):
sanctuary and foundation. Correct we're supposed to have.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I keep trying to get my mother to kind of
slow down on the whole rescuing them ourselves thing. We
don't have a staff for that. We don't have you know,
we have a beautiful ranch here in Utah. I live
in Utah, and we have a kennel on the ranch
for like those cases that my mom just can't say
no to and cannot see them be put to death,
(18:53):
and we bring them up and we kind of give
them a safe place to stay until we can somebody
some other rescue or get them an adopted. But we
don't even have like really the structure for getting them
posted up for adoption or any of it. So we
end up with like my mother herself personally has fourteen
dogs she's almost eighty one, and I have six now,
(19:16):
and it's like, Okay, we need to recruit some people
to step in and help because we can't take them all.
But yes, we have an animal advocacy foundation my mother
really started and named after my brother, who was killed
in a car accident in eighty six, so a long
(19:37):
time ago, but it was my mother's way of feeling
like she could give him a legacy that he couldn't
give himself and do something that was really inspiring and
passionate for her and for me. We're just big animal
people and we have a huge crisis in our country.
And so for the last I wanst say, fifteen years
we've been you get, like my mother keeps saying, sort
(20:00):
of like the mafia, like once you're in, you're in,
you can't get out because once you know and you're
made aware and you see it, you can't you can't
turn away. So we just keep plugging along trying to
make a difference. It's tough. It's one of those problems
that there is a solution. It's just to get everybody
on board to move in that direction. It's difficult. There's
(20:23):
so many opinions and people involved, laws and lawmakers. But
we're trying. So Yeah, it's really passion.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, I mean, I know it's really bad here in
Los Angeles that like Downy, and there's a couple of rescues,
not rescues, but shelters that are really bad. That the
rate that they uthanize the dogs is insane, Like the
dogs are there for a couple of days. I's held
in the back, not even seen.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, it's it's almost impossible. And I can't even blame
the shelter workers or the shelters. They are sewing over
the heads. They are so overwhelmed and these are not
My mom works with a lot of those shelters and
with Downey and with easily all.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Of it, Lancaster, all of those.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, and these people are trying so hard, but there
is there aren't enough people at this point to rescue
and adopt these dogs. There's more dogs than there are people,
and We recently talked to Matt who runs the ASPCA,
and he said, a big part of the problem is
the the housing in Los Angeles has now a lot
(21:33):
of it. A lot of the renters are not allowed
to have animals, so people are relinquishing their animals so
that they can get an apartment. And you know, here
we are, and the breeding is a problem, and the.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
The Spade neuter laws not being upheld and forced.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, I mean at this point they're putting down thousands,
thousands probably you know, every month. It's bad. And these
are adoptable, healthy animals. These are not you know, the complicated,
difficult animals, the vicious or sick or elderly. These are
(22:11):
like mothers with.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Puppies, mothers with puppies, that's correct. Like I think I
just reposted this woman Rita, who is a volunteer at
a couple of different shelters, and she really goes in
and plays with them and assesses them and you know,
if they are like a bite risk, that's a different story.
If they're this, they're that. But she really likes to
(22:35):
do videos of showing that these dogs are, you know, wonderful,
They're a wonderful addition, to a family. They may not
be a pure breed. Maybe they are, but because they
come from a shelter, if people aren't necessarily interested, which
I don't really understand. I'm like, you can go get
a German Shepherd from a shelter.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I know. It was really weird the other day up
here at my daughter's softball game there was a really
cute German Shepherd puppy and I went to pet them,
and you know, I said, did you did you rescue
because there are so many There are so many German
shepherds and so many beautiful German Shepherd puppies and so I,
you know, and he went, no, we got this one
(23:14):
from a breeder in Costa Rica. I went coast, like,
you went to Costa Rica to get a dog? We
have thousands in the shelters here that are like basically free, bro.
I mean, you might have to pay like a small
fee to the shelter, but like, it's just it's a
little insane to me, the idea that people are actually
like spending their money that like buying a dog that
(23:35):
might be a couple grand, when they could be rescuing
one that's equally as wonderful, equally as beautiful, equally as
perfect a family dog for like two hundred bucks. You know,
it's just kind of a here I go again with
my whole like budgeting. But I just I don't get it.
I think there's a real misconception about rescuing, which is
(23:59):
really unford fortunate. I thought by now that more people
would get it that, you know, the idea of like
a pure bread purchased dog is kind of a fallacy.
You can't purchase perfection, Like there's no guarantee that the
dog will I had Like before, I knew there was
(24:20):
a problem. Back when I was like nineteen, I bought
a miniature Schnauzer Romeo from a breeder in San Diego.
Purchased this dog from an upstanding breeder. He was the
weirdest looking Schauzer like with his like crazy long back legs,
and he was real curmudgeony. You know, you're not guaranteeing
(24:41):
some kind of perfect animal if you buy it, Like,
I don't know if people just don't realize that. I
don't know if it's a status thing. I don't know
what it is. I wish I could just get megaphone
and explain.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, but it's it is from you know, a totally
different like decade that just keeps on rolling over because
I know, you know, I did the same thing. I
got a German shepherd from Germany. You know, paid an
astronomical amount. Was she amazing? Yes, she was? She was.
She came trained. You know, you could not get near
(25:15):
me without that dog, you know, growling at you or
warning you to back off. I felt very safe around her.
You know. When I got married, my husband at the
time gave me a new German Shepherd because my other
German shepherd had passed. And yes, she comes from a
breeder in Germany. But I'm like, I love my dog
(25:40):
more than anything else in the world. I just wish
that she was not so high strung, which is what
you get from a lot of these breeders. You get
the dog that's like a little off mentally, a little
too aggressive to this to that, Because then I would have,
you know, twenty dogs running around my property versus you know,
one who if she sees another dog, she's in a
(26:02):
lunge and try to kill it. Yeah, but that mentality
does come from a different decade. I think it comes
from like the nineties, where it was a little bit
more about decadence and status and all of that. But
we're in the two thousands. Why we don't understand that
every single time that we get from a breeder a dog,
(26:26):
that we're taking away the life of probably ten dogs.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, I think there's a like a odd discrepancy between
you know, this little beautiful dog that you're looking at
that you got from your breeder and being able to
see that there are hundreds of them just like your
dog that you love so much that you would do
anything for suffering. It's like it's like you can't kind
(26:50):
of put the two together or something. A lot of
people and I didn't you know until I It was
like a random thing. My mom went to go get
her nails done and saw sign on the salon door
about like a rescue meeting, uh, you know, help meeting donations,
and she was like, oh, I can help, And she
wrote a check, but she forgot to sign it. So
the woman who ran the rescue was at her door
(27:11):
like the next day, you know, because they need that
money so badly. And so they struck up kind of
a friendship and a relationship, and my mother became more
and more aware than made me more and more aware
she's really good at lecturing me, and yeah, I guess.
And then I was like, oh, well, no, I can't
turn back, you know, because I had purchased three of
(27:32):
the dogs I've had, yeah, and all Schnauzer's always like
a Schnauzer person, and thinking that was the only way.
And then now it's like I can. I say to
my friends all the time, if you're, you know, ready
for a dog, or if you want a family dog,
or if you want another family dog when one has passed,
just call. We can get you pretty much anything for rescue.
(27:53):
Like it's crazy. There's so many purebreads and purebread rescues
out there. There's no at this point, there's really no
reason to purchase unless you're purchasing like a fully trained
because you're gonna pay for that regardless of what we trained. Thought.
(28:15):
Mine are like a one back there on my bed,
but he's wearing his diaper because he's not trained. He's old.
And it's not because he's old that he peeces all
over my house. It's because he's not tracked. But I'm
okay with that. Some people are not, so, you know,
but I think that, yeah, I think at this point
(28:36):
I'm just trying to be as loud about it as
I can be without being like, without turning everybody off.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You know, Yeah, that's that is a big thing. People are,
you know, they don't want to be hit over the
head with the information. You have to feed it to
them in just the right way. Yet I know that
my personality is I get so upset and emotional about it.
Like I do a lot of stuff with wild horses
(29:06):
and just horses in general, and I'm astonished at the
amount of horses that end up in slaughter pins because
the people can't care for the horse anymore, or because
they never took care of it properly, so now it's
got a bad leg. Yet they don't really understand that
(29:26):
that horse they're dropping it off at a slaughter pin,
it's not going anywhere good. Is going to Mexico where
they dismember it alive. So like, that's what you're doing
to your horse that has maybe you know, helped you
plow the fields for years and years and years. And
then our wild horses. It's insane to me that we
(29:49):
have a government that rounds up the wild horses, like
the very fabric of what this country is about right,
cowboys and Indians and horses and all of that. There's books,
there's poems, there's songs written about it. So what's interesting
to me is that we have somehow become a little
(30:09):
desensitized to what we do to our animals. It's almost like, oh, well,
you know, there's a clock on their life and it's time,
so let me just drop them off with the shelter.
Let me just drop them off it.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, it's shocking. You would love my mother. And anytime
you want to come up to Utah and ride any
of our horses, just come or thank you. We have
three wild horses on our ranch now from the on achy.
We tried, we tried really hard to stop that roundup
and we couldn't. And so all the people involved, there
was lots of us, and every one of us rescued
(30:45):
or took at least one or two so that they
would not go to the slaughter pens. It's horrifying. It
gives me chills. The lack of empathy and compassion to me,
it's it's barbaric, and it makes me so angry, and
I don't know sometimes how to even That's why I
(31:08):
hide in Utah. I just I don't know how to
deal with the world that can behave like this. So
many people drop old sick dogs at the shelter after
spending that dog's whole life with them, and then you
just abandon them when they're old and sick and not
you know, like play fetch anymore. Like it makes me
I have no patience for that. I have no compassion.
(31:30):
I suppose I should. Everybody has complicated lives, but I
hate the idea of treating the innocent and the voiceless
as if we aren't responsible for them, as if tecting
them then our responsibility.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So as if that person would want to be you know,
dropped off. Like I look at myself and I'm like, well,
I have cancer. You know, my cancer keeps on getting worse.
I can't imagine if my mom, who essentially like lives
with me basically three days week she's not here, but
the rest of the time she's here, so she lives
with me. I can't imagine her being like, oh god,
(32:06):
it's just too exhausting to deal with Shannon in her cancer.
I'm done, you know, like, who oh my god.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, that's a great analogy actually, because maybe that will
make people really understand it because we're talking about I mean,
I can get real like philosophical and go off into
like weird spirit realms and stuff, but I truly believe
that these creatures are of the same sort of divine
(32:35):
or universal or positive energetic energy that we all are
that runs through this whole world we have the great
blessing of getting to live in and especially you know,
here in Utah. But I just can't. I can't wrap
(32:55):
my brain around people who just don't seem to understand
that significance or oh, it's just an animal, it's like,
but it's still feelings, and it feels pain and fear
and loneliness, and you can't relate human like, what's the
problem here. I don't know. I'm that's one of those
(33:18):
things I'll get real mouthing about.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well, no, because it's true. It's like, all right, well,
you know you go to Yulin and be burned alive
and do all of this stuff. It's again, you're right,
we have no empathy or some people, the majority of people,
it seems, are devoid of empathy anymore for animals, for
living things. And you know, I'm certainly not preachy where
(33:40):
I'm like, oh, you should all be vegans. You should
be vegetarians, like I'm not. I go back and forth
from trying to be a vegetarian too then feeling like, Okay,
my body needs a little bit more protein. So it's
not about being preachy. It's about putting yourself in a
a animal shoes who that you know feels all of
(34:05):
these things. I mean they all feel these things, but
that you bring into your home, that you nurture, you love,
They spend time with your children, They are part of
your life for so long. And then you're like, well
I just don't have time for this dog, or oh
I have to move and the place I found doesn't
accept animals. It's like, well, we'll look somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You'll find somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well, you know, maybe you don't get to be in
that neighborhood, maybe you go to a different neighborhood, but
you'll find something. They don't just abandon a family member.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And I wonder if people really understand too. And it's
misleading when we say shelter. We think safe shelter, a
place they can be and be safe. That's not what
our shelters are anymore. I don't know if they ever were,
but they certainly aren't now. They are where they house
them uncomfortably in pens and cages with massive amounts of
(35:02):
them barking and freaking out and scared for just a
few days until they killed them in the back room.
So that's what that's We need to change the name.
It needs to be called prison for animals with you know,
an an inherent death sentence. So I don't know, maybe
people don't realize that. I know. I mean I've been
(35:24):
in situations where I took an older dog from a
really lovely older woman in Rhode Island when I was
working there, and I had hoped the sign was part
of the props, like set design and looking for a
home for my old one hundred and Mojo was like
one hundred and eighty pounds or something shepherd mix. I
(35:46):
can no longer keep him, and I was like, who
would do that? He's old and he's huge, Like who's
going to take this dog? When I met her, you know,
she had lost her job, she needed to move in
with her daughters. They lived in a place where they
could not have an animal, certainly not that size, and
she had a young son who with a disability and
(36:06):
he was in a wheelchair and he was so attached
to this dog, but because of his living situation, he
couldn't take him either, because he was in an assisted
living situation. It was the most awful. I said, I
will take your dog, and they brought him. I was
so sad. And they brought him to set and they
took ad bite to him, and it was so awful.
(36:27):
And this poor kid was just devastated. And his mother
was devastated because she didn't want to do this to
him either, but she didn't have a choice. And that
dog sat in my trailer and just toweled for hours.
It was I don't know that he ever really recovered.
It was so sad. But that's like, that's what I
think people are missing when they do it cavalierly. You know,
(36:51):
this dog only knows you, only loves you, feels its
life purpose is to be your companion. And so when
you abandon it, it doesn't un understand, It doesn't know why,
you know, it doesn't have the ability to. It must
have been just too much for him. They don't they
just wait, they wait for you to return.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
No, they're getting dumped at a shelter that I can't
remember the name of the shelter, But it wasn't that
long ago. It was like maybe a month ago or
something where it came out that they weren't even using
the uh you know, the shot that they give before
they euthanize the dog in order to like calm it
(37:34):
down where it doesn't feel the pain of the the
nation of like going through his body, because that basically
like stops their heart and it's not pleasant. So this
place wasn't even using that. So these dogs were being
put down in a in an even more cruel way,
being walked to the back and then just shot up
with something that like sees their heart and.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
It's like become now just like a like a factory work,
you know, just get them out, get them out, get
them out. We don't have around, we don't have room,
we don't have a room. It's like, I don't even know.
I feel so horrible and bad for the shelter workers
in a way, because I don't even know how you
what happens to your heart in a situation like that,
Like how much do you have to just desensitize yourself
just to get through your job and do this horrible thing?
(38:18):
But here in Utah we had until last year, we
had gas chambers and I was like, I'm sorry, what
it's twenty twenty three, what are you doing? You know what?
And it was like, you know, it was kind of
a fight because of the old cowboy mentality around here,
and you know, well we got them to ban them.
(38:42):
So that was a huge win. I'm incredibly grateful for,
you know, my Grebner and the people who really stepped
up to help me fight that.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
That is a huge win.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
It was crazy. We were one of three states that
still did this, and I was like, how can you
do this in this place, this sacred place, Like this
place is so extraordinary and beautiful and you feel so
connected to nature here. How can you do this? Like
what a horrible mark you're leaving on this great place.
(39:27):
I wanted to ask you a question about about your cancer.
How long have you had cancer, Shannon?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I got cancer in twenty fifteen. Okay, it went to
remission I think right at the end of twenty seventeen
or at the beginning of twenty eighteen, and then it
came back in twenty nineteen. Is stage four, yeah, breast cancer,
breast cancer, but then it spread to my bones, and
(39:59):
from there it's to my brain. Like last year, I
had brain surgery, so they had to you know open
up and remove one of the larger tumors so that
they could you know, test its pathology and all of that,
and then I had brain radiation. Thank god, it was
like vocal radiation. But you know, it's something that it
(40:24):
I did it on the podcast. I talked about it.
That just was out because it's it's you know, there's
so many protocols. Eventually it's it's stage four cancer, Like
eventually those protocols are going to start working and you
just hope that you are on one long enough for
them to actually come up with another protocol and another
(40:46):
protocol or so it's it's it's really hard. I uh,
this is probably the hardest time for me that I've
ever had with the cancer. I've always kind of felt
very positive and like I can deal with that, and
this is definitely like I'm overly emotional, Like I want
to cry every single second at good or bad. Like
(41:11):
just introducing you, I was like about to start crying,
like it just but what's really beautiful about it is
I think you become so incredibly sensitive that your eyes
are like wide open everything around you, to people to
how they react, to what you can possibly do that's
(41:33):
better for the world, like what your purpose here is? Yeah,
because I think I struggled with that kind of my
entire life, like being a child actor and then growing
up acting, and I just never felt like I was accepted.
I always, you know, looked at the Friends crew and
was like, oh my god, I want to hang out
(41:55):
with jan Anison and Courtney Cox and you know, why
doesn't anybody accept me? And why am I always called
the bad girl? And then eventually it's like when you
turn forty, when you stopped caring about what people are
saying about you. That's for me. Cancer was that moment
where I was like, oh, hell no, I don't need
to hang out with any of these people. I need
(42:16):
to make sure I'm happy and living the best life
that I can while I'm still alive.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
So in ninety six, I think my mother was diagnosed
with stage four breast cancer, and like I said, almost
eighty one now, and I mean, your experience is clearly different,
and I think everybody's is when it comes to this
sort of you know, to cancer, to health, our finger,
I think our bodies and our reactions to things are
(42:48):
as individual as our fingerprints. I don't think there's any
sort of one shoe fits all thing that just you know,
but I would you're probably really sick of talking about it,
but if you do ever want to talk to somebody
who's gone through it and has some I think very interesting.
You know how she got through it. She's really she's
(43:13):
pretty incredible. I'm very proud of my mother. I find
her incredibly well. She's she's brave, and she's strong, she's
incredibly compassionate. She's unbelievably annoying sometimes. But I really think
that if you ever wanted to talk to somebody that
she would. I would love you to talk to her,
(43:35):
because there were some things she did that were unique
at the time, and one of those was to work.
She worked with a nature path and but she chose
she was in a cancer group and all the other
women had chosen like wumpectomies and radiation, and she chose
to just kind of go full throttle and do the
(43:55):
mes ectomy, do the nine months of chemotherapy. And she
will say that it wasn't the best year of her life,
but it wasn't the worst. And she had some tools,
like she our family is definitely I'm not really well.
I was raised Mormon, and at the time we were
(44:17):
practicing Mormons, but I'm not really and she isn't really either,
like we're more. I mean, I pray and I lean
into the idea that this is a benevolent universe, that
there's an energy that feels kind. I don't think it's
an indifferent universe. And I'm not agnostic or an atheist,
(44:41):
but I don't know exactly how it all looks. I
don't need to. I like the mystery, but I do
think that she felt she was given some answers through
prayer or meditation or whatever she did at that time
that I thought were really interesting. It was like, stay
away from toxic people, even if they're your family. Had
a few and she I think the other one was
(45:04):
rest when you need it. Don't try to push through it,
don't try to get back on your feet and whatever.
Just rest. And then I can't remember what the third
ones I think it might have been, like, was it
till like write down you know what what you were
really feeling, like the real shit, not the like I'll
(45:24):
be okay, but.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
We do tend to do that we tend to, as
your mom would probably agree with me on, we tend
to look at everybody and go, no, we're fine, we're fine,
We're fine. It's I don't even think it's about reassuring ourselves.
It's about reassuring everyone around us.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah, because they're uncomfortable and makes you uncomfortable, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
But I would assume that that would be incredibly healthy
and getting some of that toxic energy out of where
you are super scared, but you're not able to us
it right to the people that love you and that
are in your life all the time because you're trying
to protect them. But to just get it out on paper,
(46:09):
it's like it gets it out in the universe and gone, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah. And I think that you know, that goes for
almost anything, but I think it's especially important when you're
sort of warring with your body, you know, and warring
with you. I think being able to just be like
deeply honest about how that really makes you feel, without
(46:33):
worrying about anybody else's feelings or anybody else's reaction or
anybody else's need to make it right and make it
right and make right and find a solution for you
because that's you know, a very human reaction too, when
you see somebody love and you know that is suffering,
but like it is a lot of energy to then
take on as the person who's dealing with it. So yeah,
(46:56):
I mean, it's not Life's not for pussies.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
That's a really good saying. I like that one a lot,
and I'll probably take you up on horseback riding's coming
and getting that Utah energy.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I would love to host you. I just think we
would have such a good time together. And I just think,
you know, it's so interesting because I get asked on
occasion to do a podcast here there, but I typically,
you know, like I said, I'm kind of here in Utah,
like not even in the world anymore of Hollywood as much,
But this one, I was like, yes, yes, I'll do that.
I like, I'd really like to talk to Shannon already.
(47:33):
That's very exciting.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
So that's a huge honor. I mean, I gotta tell you,
I've got like pages and pages and pages of like
from my producer. She does. She's so good, she does
so much hard work, and I'm like, what I love
when I get someone like you on that. You know,
I do have a lot of admiration for is when
(47:55):
you just click and you have an honest conversation and
it goes where it goes, and nothing's prepared and it
just is what it is.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah. Sorry, Actually I tend to I'm not very good
at staying on track.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Are you kidding? I'm not good at it either. It
was unbelievable, like, honestly my favorite person I've interviewed so far,
And I thank you, like, I'm not going to take
up the rest of your day because I think we've
covered a lot. Is there anything that you want to cover?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
No, I'm just very grateful to've been asked to be
here today. I am like very I don't get a
lot of these kinds of conversations. I have a fifteen
year old, a twelve year old, and a seven year old.
You know, they don't want to talk about this sort
of stuff. And then there's my mom, and we talked
twice a day every day, so it's like you kind
of run out of interesting topics. So I'm just grateful
to have gotten to have this really lovely interesting conversation
(48:47):
with such a lovely interesting woman.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Thank you. You're going to make me cry, seriously, You'll
make me cry again an honor, and I'll see you
in Utah, and please tell your mom. She'll get my number.
She can give me all. I would love to talk
to her because I think somebody who's been there, who's
done it, I don't think you're ever over it. Whether
you're cured not cured, you're still in the midst of it.
(49:11):
It's always nice to connect with someone who you know
has gone through it, is going through it, and that
maybe is doing something different that could you know you
would just open you up to a totally different experience.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, I mean, perspective is tough, and so it's if
you can maybe you know, maybe there will be something
in the conversation that inspires or shifts or or even
just comforts you know, or maybe not, but it's worth
a shot.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
And if you need any help with dog stuff over
there in Utah, let me know. I love you, thank you,
I will help. It's like my passion. It's what I
care a lot about, along with educating people in cancer.
So whatever you need for me, I'm here for you,
and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
In Utah. All right, thank you,
This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Hi everyone,
welcome to a new episode of Let's Be Clear with
Shita and Doherty. I am over the moon right now
because I have somebody that I have admired for a
long time. Catherine Heigel, Like you guys know her twenty
seven dresses, knocked up like Grey's Anatomy, Barflying Lane. Just
(00:27):
her resume is insane, Hi, Kathy, but also she's insane.
She's definitely well, I should just say it to your face.
You're someone that I have definitely looked up to, and
I admire your strength. I admire you know, your perseverance
as a woman as an actor. You just the amount
(00:50):
of self respect you have and the caring you have
for you know, your other actors, like now as a
producer and really watching out for women is astonishing to me.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Oh my god. Well, I didn't know I was coming
in for this kind of intro. I'm very uh, I'm
feeling very very good about myself at this good. That
was so nice and means means what it means a lot.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah. Well, I mean listen, I had gone I sort
of there's a lot of similarities between us that aren't
instantly recognizable to a lot of people. But like when
I really looked at you and broke everything down, and
you know, I was like the biggest Grays fan and
(01:39):
Izzy and I was like, oh my god, we're really
getting Catherine on the show. I just sort of looked
at it and went, wow, there were there were only
a few women back then that stood up for themselves.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well you were the original, right, Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I mean I got fired for it multiple times. You know,
you just you kept going and it was really impressive.
I mean, I don't know any person except for you
that turns down an Immy nomination.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well I didn't, and everybody keeps saying that I didn't
turn it down. You know, you have to submit yourself.
You have to submit your work and then they deliberate
and then they decide if they want to give you
a nomination. I just didn't submit my work that year.
And I should you know, I don't know. My mother
and I were talking about this recently. I should have
said nothing. I should have said nothing. I should have
(02:36):
just said oh I forgot, because it created such a
maelstrom that was so unnecessary, and it really was. Yeah,
I was kind of trying to make a bit of
a snarky point about my material that year, but I
was also just not feeling my material. I didn't think
I had anything that warranted even the consideration for a nomination.
(02:58):
I just wasn't proud of my work. So it was really,
you know, I would never be so bold or so
arrogant to turn down a nomination. I would take that nomination.
I became my way. I'd be down, but I just knew,
you know, there wasn't anything that would really warrant one
(03:21):
that year, and I was trying to be honorable. I
guess I was trying to have some integrity. I wasn't
trying to be a dick.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
But you know what's funny is that had it been
obviously a guy, they would have said like, oh, look
at how honorable he is, like and instead because you're
a woman, and you know, certainly back then it was
a lot different than it is now. Although I'm the
naysayer who's like, we haven't really changed that much in
(03:50):
the business, you guys, not a ton.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
It's just a little more subversive now.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
It's a little more Yes, yes, they like to be
a little bit more quiet about it. Of how you know,
the men still really lead the charge and women have
a role to play. And yes, there are brave women
like you that have bucked against that and said, not
even trying to be you know, arroant, which they want
(04:16):
to call you, not trying to be difficult do they
want to call you? I've been called all of these
things as well. I get that, but it's it's none
of that. It's the fact that you're just trying to
be truthful to yourself right and hold yourself to a
certain standards.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, it was always about that, and I'm very fortunate
I have my mother who has always been, you know,
my biggest support system and also my partner in all
of this. We are, you know, business partners, and so
I always had another strong woman who kind of had
my back and like somebody to bounce it off of.
(04:52):
And sometimes we would rile each other up, no doubt,
but most of the time it was like I just
felt like the right thing to do and the right
thing to say, and she was like, yeah, I got you,
You're right, you know. And so I don't know that
I would have been quite so forthright without the support,
you know, I would have been more afraid. I think,
(05:14):
but I don't know. It's shamed me for a long time.
I spent probably, I want to say, like all of
my mid thirties, oh like from thirty five to forty,
I spent just trying to be as quiet and as
polite and as sweet and as just kind of disappearing
(05:36):
as much as possible, and it still didn't work. So
then I, I don't know, I hit forty and I
went fuck this. But life is really too short, and
you know, I, like you said, I just want to
I just want to be true to myself. I'm not
trying to make I never never go out there with
(05:57):
the intention of ever making anybody else feel bad or
to bully them, or to upset them or hurt feelings.
That's so outside my intention. I'm sure I have on
occasion by mistake or accident, but I will. I don't
like being bullied either, and I don't have a very
(06:23):
sort of calm, political rational reaction to that. I tend
to I tend to get out my boxing gloves.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So yeah, I mean, I completely understand that. And again
I applaud you for it, because you know, like I was,
I think I was freshly fired off of charmed when
like Grays started and I watched it, and obviously I
was a big fan of the show. But then with
(06:52):
you and your character, there is such a vulnerability to
Izzy that you brought to that character, but also like
a strength to her that was very that I think women,
particularly young younger women needed that role to like see
(07:12):
and to really understand what you could do. And then
it wasn't about like sleeping your way somewhere, you know,
it was about her determination in her life, all done
in this you know, very funny way. There was just
such a humor about you on that show along with
the vulnerability that was like wow, you know, that's great,
(07:36):
Like what a character to have during that time.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, she was great. And I think that, you know,
so much of that is attributed to to Shonda and
her creation of these characters. So much of it is
attributed to the sort of lightning in a bottle of
that cast together at that time, which again was kind
of Shonda, you know, figuring out this. Some of it
(08:02):
is you can't know, you don't know how it's going
to quite kind of come together and how it's going
to work, but it just did. And then as I
think the writers got to know us more individually, like
Izzy sort of that's who I was at that age.
I mean I was twenty four, I think when the
show started, and I was thirty two maybe or thirty
(08:27):
one when I left. I was Izzy. You know, I
was really insecure. I was, but also I still had
that fight in me. I still didn't like it when
people kind of pushed me around or told me I
couldn't or told me I shouldn't or told me, you
know that I wouldn't be able to kind of think
I so a lot of who she was. And it
(08:52):
was funny because I wouldn't have said that at the time,
but now looking back at her, I think, you know,
that was that was kind of who I was. Then.
There was a lot of just young woman in security,
you know, just not really knowing if I had a
right to like take up space.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
But also conviction, Like there just seemed to me with
you and your character that there was a lot of
conviction in being truthful and in doing what you know,
you really felt was right, whether it be cutting that
bad there you.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Go, Juriel bad. I will never not know that word.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But like that was, you know, for your character, that
was a huge thing and it really showed like your
love for this man and your conviction for what you
believed to be the right thing, which I always sort
of paralleled to you as a human of like, wow,
you know, Catherine's gonna stand up for what she really
believes is right, which, again, particularly for back then, that
(09:59):
was like a very big thing. And on an ensemble
cast for a show that sort of came out huge
right away, it was incredibly popular. I just you know
that that could not have been easy for you.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I think it was. It was easy until it wasn't,
you know, because there was a moment when it sort
of depended on what I was standing up for, right
So when I was sort of standing up for my
co star and you know, coming out against bigotry and
that sort of thing, it was, you know, applauded and appreciated.
(10:36):
When I stood for myself, it wasn't quite taken quite
the same way. And so then it stopped being easy
to be to do that, to speak my truth. Then
I then I just ship hell up as much as
I could for a long time, and I pretty much
just ran away. And so I love you so much
(11:00):
for speaking to my strength, But I wasn't. I think
sometimes I was, but I was also sometimes just deeply,
I just was deeply insecure and afraid that all those
opinions that had so quickly shifted were true, you know,
(11:21):
that those opinions meant more than my own opinion of myself.
And it took me till about forty to really to stop,
you know, to stop apologizing, to stop beating myself up
about it, to stop regretting the choices and decisions i'd
made in the things I'd said, and kind of just
learn and move forward. And it gave me a clarity
(11:45):
about like, Okay, there are some things I don't need
to get real mouthy about. You know, some things can
remain behind closed doors, but there are things I will
be very loud about and screw the consequences quite frankly.
Like it taught me that I just, yeah, I want
to be able to sleep at night like anybody else.
(12:06):
I want to not feel like I just played a
game the whole time. It's not a game to me.
You know, Hollywood is complicated. I'm sure many industries are,
but it's it's not a game. And I'm not a politician,
(12:30):
so I'm not good at that. I decided I don't
care if I am or not.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, I mean I think if you think about back
then as well, those voices that were telling you that
you were wrong or you know, making you into a
villain or spoiled or whatever. If they, you know, the
majority of them, Let's face it, our networks will run
by men. And I think that from personally. I look
(13:01):
back and I'm like, well, they never really liked a
very strong woman. They really liked women to know their place.
Like I was told to, you know, shut up and
get on my mark multiple times by somebody at Aaron
Spellings Company, and I be like, wait, what you don't
pay me enough to do that. Yeah, you know, like
if you want me to be completely quiet and not
(13:23):
have an opinion, you have to pay me a lot
more money. So I sound better about going to work, right,
Otherwise I need to have an opinion. I need to
have a say. I need to, you know, stand up
for the fact that the crew is working way too
long of hours that you know, the actors were working
long hours. You know, sixteen hour days is insane because
(13:44):
what people don't realize is that it's you know, I
always lived an hour away from where I was filming,
so for me, it was really an eighteen hour day. Yeah,
at least at least and when you get home, you're
all like, you know, sped up and jack and you're
thinking about your day and what work you did, so
you can't go to bed right away. It's exhausting. Yeah,
(14:06):
and you just keep doing that five days a week,
and you know, your weekends, you end up having no life.
I know for us it was, you know, lots of
publicity on the weekends and photo shoots and when you
are that woman who finally looks at people and says,
this is enough. You cannot abuse the crew, you can't
(14:29):
abuse us as cast members, it doesn't go over so well.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
No, it's bizarre. It's actually a bizarre reaction. To me,
I don't really totally understand it because I think, well,
whuldn't it save you money to do this more expediently,
Like what, I don't understand the reaction. You know, it's
such a strange industry and that it's business, but it's
(14:54):
creative and it's a creative collaboration. It's not a one woman,
one man show, not when it's television or film or
most Broadway. I mean, I'm sure there are a few
one woman shows that work, but this was this takes
everybody's collective effort and it's a million moving parts. I
(15:15):
understand that that that can take a minute to find
a rhythm, but it should take no more than a minute. Months,
you know, this is and it just costs them more
money in the long run. I never quite understood what
this sort of shut up and don't bite the hand
that feeds you mentality was. It was like, well, you're
(15:38):
just you're just wasting money, like as a sort of
producer inside, because I love producing and I like have
like I really love organization, and I'm like, I got
a plan, I got a plan. I know exactly how
we can do this. And it's like, no, let's make
it as chaotic and you know, crazy and exhausting and
(15:58):
dangerous and and cost as much as possible. That sounds
like a bad plan.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, let's move the camera thirty times for you know,
one scene. It's a very bizarre thing that I would
notice with some of our guest directors. They would come
in and it was it was as if they had
not worked before, even though they were successful and they
had worked, but they were all about like, this is
my time and I'm going to stretch it as much
(16:26):
as I want. And on like our fourteen, I would
be like, are you kidding? Yeah, Like we don't need
to do ten takes. We're all professionals here. We nailed
it on the first take. And why do you have
you know, four different close ups of me? Like my
face is not that interesting. We don't need this.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It only makes so many expressions.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Right, like it was. Really it would get very frustrating,
and I was pretty vocal about it. I also was,
you know, second season, I started directing, and I was
a really fast director. I was one of those that
you know, one time I wrapped before lunch. We started
at seven, I got done at twelve and they were like,
you can't wrap this early, and I was like, yeah,
(17:09):
but I've already shot scenes from tomorrow, so like we're
not going to have anything to shoot tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
But they should love that.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah, they should have loved that because.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
It saves them so much money and production is crazy expensive,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
And it gives a crew a break, you know, all
of a sudden, they work safer and more efficiently, and
you know, the actors, when we're refreshed, we have time
to like go home and have a life and learn
our lines and our scene and our character more. We
have just more time to put into the show to
(17:44):
make it better. Yet it was like no, no, no,
you can't. You know, wrap before twelve hours and I
had no clue how to make it last until twelve hours.
It was like I just I can't. I can't do this,
Like it's going to be I'm going to be quick
and you guys are going to have to deal with it.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Well, you sound like my dream. So I want to
direct me.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm in Well, I'll direct you anytime. It would be
a huge honor. I got to ask you something because
another thing I admire about you. You have a animal
(18:28):
sanctuary and foundation. Correct we're supposed to have.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I keep trying to get my mother to kind of
slow down on the whole rescuing them ourselves thing. We
don't have a staff for that. We don't have you know,
we have a beautiful ranch here in Utah. I live
in Utah, and we have a kennel on the ranch
for like those cases that my mom just can't say
no to and cannot see them be put to death,
(18:53):
and we bring them up and we kind of give
them a safe place to stay until we can somebody
some other rescue or get them an adopted. But we
don't even have like really the structure for getting them
posted up for adoption or any of it. So we
end up with like my mother herself personally has fourteen
dogs she's almost eighty one, and I have six now,
(19:16):
and it's like, Okay, we need to recruit some people
to step in and help because we can't take them all.
But yes, we have an animal advocacy foundation my mother
really started and named after my brother, who was killed
in a car accident in eighty six, so a long
(19:37):
time ago, but it was my mother's way of feeling
like she could give him a legacy that he couldn't
give himself and do something that was really inspiring and
passionate for her and for me. We're just big animal
people and we have a huge crisis in our country.
And so for the last I wanst say, fifteen years
we've been you get, like my mother keeps saying, sort
(20:00):
of like the mafia, like once you're in, you're in,
you can't get out because once you know and you're
made aware and you see it, you can't you can't
turn away. So we just keep plugging along trying to
make a difference. It's tough. It's one of those problems
that there is a solution. It's just to get everybody
on board to move in that direction. It's difficult. There's
(20:23):
so many opinions and people involved, laws and lawmakers. But
we're trying. So Yeah, it's really passion.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, I mean, I know it's really bad here in
Los Angeles that like Downy, and there's a couple of rescues,
not rescues, but shelters that are really bad. That the
rate that they uthanize the dogs is insane, Like the
dogs are there for a couple of days. I's held
in the back, not even seen.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, it's it's almost impossible. And I can't even blame
the shelter workers or the shelters. They are sewing over
the heads. They are so overwhelmed and these are not
My mom works with a lot of those shelters and
with Downey and with easily all.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Of it, Lancaster, all of those.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, and these people are trying so hard, but there
is there aren't enough people at this point to rescue
and adopt these dogs. There's more dogs than there are people,
and We recently talked to Matt who runs the ASPCA,
and he said, a big part of the problem is
the the housing in Los Angeles has now a lot
(21:33):
of it. A lot of the renters are not allowed
to have animals, so people are relinquishing their animals so
that they can get an apartment. And you know, here
we are, and the breeding is a problem, and the.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
The Spade neuter laws not being upheld and forced.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, I mean at this point they're putting down thousands,
thousands probably you know, every month. It's bad. And these
are adoptable, healthy animals. These are not you know, the complicated,
difficult animals, the vicious or sick or elderly. These are
(22:11):
like mothers with.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Puppies, mothers with puppies, that's correct. Like I think I
just reposted this woman Rita, who is a volunteer at
a couple of different shelters, and she really goes in
and plays with them and assesses them and you know,
if they are like a bite risk, that's a different story.
If they're this, they're that. But she really likes to
(22:35):
do videos of showing that these dogs are, you know, wonderful,
They're a wonderful addition, to a family. They may not
be a pure breed. Maybe they are, but because they
come from a shelter, if people aren't necessarily interested, which
I don't really understand. I'm like, you can go get
a German Shepherd from a shelter.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I know. It was really weird the other day up
here at my daughter's softball game there was a really
cute German Shepherd puppy and I went to pet them,
and you know, I said, did you did you rescue
because there are so many There are so many German
shepherds and so many beautiful German Shepherd puppies and so I,
you know, and he went, no, we got this one
(23:14):
from a breeder in Costa Rica. I went coast, like,
you went to Costa Rica to get a dog? We
have thousands in the shelters here that are like basically free, bro.
I mean, you might have to pay like a small
fee to the shelter, but like, it's just it's a
little insane to me, the idea that people are actually
like spending their money that like buying a dog that
(23:35):
might be a couple grand, when they could be rescuing
one that's equally as wonderful, equally as beautiful, equally as
perfect a family dog for like two hundred bucks. You know,
it's just kind of a here I go again with
my whole like budgeting. But I just I don't get it.
I think there's a real misconception about rescuing, which is
(23:59):
really unford fortunate. I thought by now that more people
would get it that, you know, the idea of like
a pure bread purchased dog is kind of a fallacy.
You can't purchase perfection, Like there's no guarantee that the
dog will I had Like before, I knew there was
(24:20):
a problem. Back when I was like nineteen, I bought
a miniature Schnauzer Romeo from a breeder in San Diego.
Purchased this dog from an upstanding breeder. He was the
weirdest looking Schauzer like with his like crazy long back legs,
and he was real curmudgeony. You know, you're not guaranteeing
(24:41):
some kind of perfect animal if you buy it, Like,
I don't know if people just don't realize that. I
don't know if it's a status thing. I don't know
what it is. I wish I could just get megaphone
and explain.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, but it's it is from you know, a totally
different like decade that just keeps on rolling over because
I know, you know, I did the same thing. I
got a German shepherd from Germany. You know, paid an
astronomical amount. Was she amazing? Yes, she was? She was.
She came trained. You know, you could not get near
(25:15):
me without that dog, you know, growling at you or
warning you to back off. I felt very safe around her.
You know. When I got married, my husband at the
time gave me a new German Shepherd because my other
German shepherd had passed. And yes, she comes from a
breeder in Germany. But I'm like, I love my dog
(25:40):
more than anything else in the world. I just wish
that she was not so high strung, which is what
you get from a lot of these breeders. You get
the dog that's like a little off mentally, a little
too aggressive to this to that, Because then I would have,
you know, twenty dogs running around my property versus you know,
one who if she sees another dog, she's in a
(26:02):
lunge and try to kill it. Yeah, but that mentality
does come from a different decade. I think it comes
from like the nineties, where it was a little bit
more about decadence and status and all of that. But
we're in the two thousands. Why we don't understand that
every single time that we get from a breeder a dog,
(26:26):
that we're taking away the life of probably ten dogs.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, I think there's a like a odd discrepancy between
you know, this little beautiful dog that you're looking at
that you got from your breeder and being able to
see that there are hundreds of them just like your
dog that you love so much that you would do
anything for suffering. It's like it's like you can't kind
(26:50):
of put the two together or something. A lot of
people and I didn't you know until I It was
like a random thing. My mom went to go get
her nails done and saw sign on the salon door
about like a rescue meeting, uh, you know, help meeting donations,
and she was like, oh, I can help, And she
wrote a check, but she forgot to sign it. So
the woman who ran the rescue was at her door
(27:11):
like the next day, you know, because they need that
money so badly. And so they struck up kind of
a friendship and a relationship, and my mother became more
and more aware than made me more and more aware
she's really good at lecturing me, and yeah, I guess.
And then I was like, oh, well, no, I can't
turn back, you know, because I had purchased three of
(27:32):
the dogs I've had, yeah, and all Schnauzer's always like
a Schnauzer person, and thinking that was the only way.
And then now it's like I can. I say to
my friends all the time, if you're, you know, ready
for a dog, or if you want a family dog,
or if you want another family dog when one has passed,
just call. We can get you pretty much anything for rescue.
(27:53):
Like it's crazy. There's so many purebreads and purebread rescues
out there. There's no at this point, there's really no
reason to purchase unless you're purchasing like a fully trained
because you're gonna pay for that regardless of what we trained. Thought.
(28:15):
Mine are like a one back there on my bed,
but he's wearing his diaper because he's not trained. He's old.
And it's not because he's old that he peeces all
over my house. It's because he's not tracked. But I'm
okay with that. Some people are not, so, you know,
but I think that, yeah, I think at this point
(28:36):
I'm just trying to be as loud about it as
I can be without being like, without turning everybody off.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You know, Yeah, that's that is a big thing. People are,
you know, they don't want to be hit over the
head with the information. You have to feed it to
them in just the right way. Yet I know that
my personality is I get so upset and emotional about it.
Like I do a lot of stuff with wild horses
(29:06):
and just horses in general, and I'm astonished at the
amount of horses that end up in slaughter pins because
the people can't care for the horse anymore, or because
they never took care of it properly, so now it's
got a bad leg. Yet they don't really understand that
(29:26):
that horse they're dropping it off at a slaughter pin,
it's not going anywhere good. Is going to Mexico where
they dismember it alive. So like, that's what you're doing
to your horse that has maybe you know, helped you
plow the fields for years and years and years. And
then our wild horses. It's insane to me that we
(29:49):
have a government that rounds up the wild horses, like
the very fabric of what this country is about right,
cowboys and Indians and horses and all of that. There's books,
there's poems, there's songs written about it. So what's interesting
to me is that we have somehow become a little
(30:09):
desensitized to what we do to our animals. It's almost like, oh, well,
you know, there's a clock on their life and it's time,
so let me just drop them off with the shelter.
Let me just drop them off it.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, it's shocking. You would love my mother. And anytime
you want to come up to Utah and ride any
of our horses, just come or thank you. We have
three wild horses on our ranch now from the on achy.
We tried, we tried really hard to stop that roundup
and we couldn't. And so all the people involved, there
was lots of us, and every one of us rescued
(30:45):
or took at least one or two so that they
would not go to the slaughter pens. It's horrifying. It
gives me chills. The lack of empathy and compassion to me,
it's it's barbaric, and it makes me so angry, and
I don't know sometimes how to even That's why I
(31:08):
hide in Utah. I just I don't know how to
deal with the world that can behave like this. So
many people drop old sick dogs at the shelter after
spending that dog's whole life with them, and then you
just abandon them when they're old and sick and not
you know, like play fetch anymore. Like it makes me
I have no patience for that. I have no compassion.
(31:30):
I suppose I should. Everybody has complicated lives, but I
hate the idea of treating the innocent and the voiceless
as if we aren't responsible for them, as if tecting
them then our responsibility.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So as if that person would want to be you know,
dropped off. Like I look at myself and I'm like, well,
I have cancer. You know, my cancer keeps on getting worse.
I can't imagine if my mom, who essentially like lives
with me basically three days week she's not here, but
the rest of the time she's here, so she lives
with me. I can't imagine her being like, oh god,
(32:06):
it's just too exhausting to deal with Shannon in her cancer.
I'm done, you know, like, who oh my god.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, that's a great analogy actually, because maybe that will
make people really understand it because we're talking about I mean,
I can get real like philosophical and go off into
like weird spirit realms and stuff, but I truly believe
that these creatures are of the same sort of divine
(32:35):
or universal or positive energetic energy that we all are
that runs through this whole world we have the great
blessing of getting to live in and especially you know,
here in Utah. But I just can't. I can't wrap
(32:55):
my brain around people who just don't seem to understand
that significance or oh, it's just an animal, it's like,
but it's still feelings, and it feels pain and fear
and loneliness, and you can't relate human like, what's the
problem here. I don't know. I'm that's one of those
(33:18):
things I'll get real mouthing about.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Well, no, because it's true. It's like, all right, well,
you know you go to Yulin and be burned alive
and do all of this stuff. It's again, you're right,
we have no empathy or some people, the majority of people,
it seems, are devoid of empathy anymore for animals, for
living things. And you know, I'm certainly not preachy where
(33:40):
I'm like, oh, you should all be vegans. You should
be vegetarians, like I'm not. I go back and forth
from trying to be a vegetarian too then feeling like, Okay,
my body needs a little bit more protein. So it's
not about being preachy. It's about putting yourself in a
a animal shoes who that you know feels all of
(34:05):
these things. I mean they all feel these things, but
that you bring into your home, that you nurture, you love,
They spend time with your children, They are part of
your life for so long. And then you're like, well
I just don't have time for this dog, or oh
I have to move and the place I found doesn't
accept animals. It's like, well, we'll look somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You'll find somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well, you know, maybe you don't get to be in
that neighborhood, maybe you go to a different neighborhood, but
you'll find something. They don't just abandon a family member.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
And I wonder if people really understand too. And it's
misleading when we say shelter. We think safe shelter, a
place they can be and be safe. That's not what
our shelters are anymore. I don't know if they ever were,
but they certainly aren't now. They are where they house
them uncomfortably in pens and cages with massive amounts of
(35:02):
them barking and freaking out and scared for just a
few days until they killed them in the back room.
So that's what that's We need to change the name.
It needs to be called prison for animals with you know,
an an inherent death sentence. So I don't know, maybe
people don't realize that. I know. I mean I've been
(35:24):
in situations where I took an older dog from a
really lovely older woman in Rhode Island when I was
working there, and I had hoped the sign was part
of the props, like set design and looking for a
home for my old one hundred and Mojo was like
one hundred and eighty pounds or something shepherd mix. I
(35:46):
can no longer keep him, and I was like, who
would do that? He's old and he's huge, Like who's
going to take this dog? When I met her, you know,
she had lost her job, she needed to move in
with her daughters. They lived in a place where they
could not have an animal, certainly not that size, and
she had a young son who with a disability and
(36:06):
he was in a wheelchair and he was so attached
to this dog, but because of his living situation, he
couldn't take him either, because he was in an assisted
living situation. It was the most awful. I said, I
will take your dog, and they brought him. I was
so sad. And they brought him to set and they
took ad bite to him, and it was so awful.
(36:27):
And this poor kid was just devastated. And his mother
was devastated because she didn't want to do this to
him either, but she didn't have a choice. And that
dog sat in my trailer and just toweled for hours.
It was I don't know that he ever really recovered.
It was so sad. But that's like, that's what I
think people are missing when they do it cavalierly. You know,
(36:51):
this dog only knows you, only loves you, feels its
life purpose is to be your companion. And so when
you abandon it, it doesn't un understand, It doesn't know why,
you know, it doesn't have the ability to. It must
have been just too much for him. They don't they
just wait, they wait for you to return.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
No, they're getting dumped at a shelter that I can't
remember the name of the shelter, But it wasn't that
long ago. It was like maybe a month ago or
something where it came out that they weren't even using
the uh you know, the shot that they give before
they euthanize the dog in order to like calm it
(37:34):
down where it doesn't feel the pain of the the
nation of like going through his body, because that basically
like stops their heart and it's not pleasant. So this
place wasn't even using that. So these dogs were being
put down in a in an even more cruel way,
being walked to the back and then just shot up
with something that like sees their heart and.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
It's like become now just like a like a factory work,
you know, just get them out, get them out, get
them out. We don't have around, we don't have room,
we don't have a room. It's like, I don't even know.
I feel so horrible and bad for the shelter workers
in a way, because I don't even know how you
what happens to your heart in a situation like that,
Like how much do you have to just desensitize yourself
just to get through your job and do this horrible thing?
(38:18):
But here in Utah we had until last year, we
had gas chambers and I was like, I'm sorry, what
it's twenty twenty three, what are you doing? You know what?
And it was like, you know, it was kind of
a fight because of the old cowboy mentality around here,
and you know, well we got them to ban them.
(38:42):
So that was a huge win. I'm incredibly grateful for,
you know, my Grebner and the people who really stepped
up to help me fight that.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
That is a huge win.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
It was crazy. We were one of three states that
still did this, and I was like, how can you
do this in this place, this sacred place, Like this
place is so extraordinary and beautiful and you feel so
connected to nature here. How can you do this? Like
what a horrible mark you're leaving on this great place.
(39:27):
I wanted to ask you a question about about your cancer.
How long have you had cancer, Shannon?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
I got cancer in twenty fifteen. Okay, it went to
remission I think right at the end of twenty seventeen
or at the beginning of twenty eighteen, and then it
came back in twenty nineteen. Is stage four, yeah, breast cancer,
breast cancer, but then it spread to my bones, and
(39:59):
from there it's to my brain. Like last year, I
had brain surgery, so they had to you know open
up and remove one of the larger tumors so that
they could you know, test its pathology and all of that,
and then I had brain radiation. Thank god, it was
like vocal radiation. But you know, it's something that it
(40:24):
I did it on the podcast. I talked about it.
That just was out because it's it's you know, there's
so many protocols. Eventually it's it's stage four cancer, Like
eventually those protocols are going to start working and you
just hope that you are on one long enough for
them to actually come up with another protocol and another
(40:46):
protocol or so it's it's it's really hard. I uh,
this is probably the hardest time for me that I've
ever had with the cancer. I've always kind of felt
very positive and like I can deal with that, and
this is definitely like I'm overly emotional, Like I want
to cry every single second at good or bad. Like
(41:11):
just introducing you, I was like about to start crying,
like it just but what's really beautiful about it is
I think you become so incredibly sensitive that your eyes
are like wide open everything around you, to people to
how they react, to what you can possibly do that's
(41:33):
better for the world, like what your purpose here is? Yeah,
because I think I struggled with that kind of my
entire life, like being a child actor and then growing
up acting, and I just never felt like I was accepted.
I always, you know, looked at the Friends crew and
was like, oh my god, I want to hang out
(41:55):
with jan Anison and Courtney Cox and you know, why
doesn't anybody accept me? And why am I always called
the bad girl? And then eventually it's like when you
turn forty, when you stopped caring about what people are
saying about you. That's for me. Cancer was that moment
where I was like, oh, hell no, I don't need
to hang out with any of these people. I need
(42:16):
to make sure I'm happy and living the best life
that I can while I'm still alive.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
So in ninety six, I think my mother was diagnosed
with stage four breast cancer, and like I said, almost
eighty one now, and I mean, your experience is clearly different,
and I think everybody's is when it comes to this
sort of you know, to cancer, to health, our finger,
I think our bodies and our reactions to things are
(42:48):
as individual as our fingerprints. I don't think there's any
sort of one shoe fits all thing that just you know,
but I would you're probably really sick of talking about it,
but if you do ever want to talk to somebody
who's gone through it and has some I think very interesting.
You know how she got through it. She's really she's
(43:13):
pretty incredible. I'm very proud of my mother. I find
her incredibly well. She's she's brave, and she's strong, she's
incredibly compassionate. She's unbelievably annoying sometimes. But I really think
that if you ever wanted to talk to somebody that
she would. I would love you to talk to her,
(43:35):
because there were some things she did that were unique
at the time, and one of those was to work.
She worked with a nature path and but she chose
she was in a cancer group and all the other
women had chosen like wumpectomies and radiation, and she chose
to just kind of go full throttle and do the
(43:55):
mes ectomy, do the nine months of chemotherapy. And she
will say that it wasn't the best year of her life,
but it wasn't the worst. And she had some tools,
like she our family is definitely I'm not really well.
I was raised Mormon, and at the time we were
(44:17):
practicing Mormons, but I'm not really and she isn't really either,
like we're more. I mean, I pray and I lean
into the idea that this is a benevolent universe, that
there's an energy that feels kind. I don't think it's
an indifferent universe. And I'm not agnostic or an atheist,
(44:41):
but I don't know exactly how it all looks. I
don't need to. I like the mystery, but I do
think that she felt she was given some answers through
prayer or meditation or whatever she did at that time
that I thought were really interesting. It was like, stay
away from toxic people, even if they're your family. Had
a few and she I think the other one was
(45:04):
rest when you need it. Don't try to push through it,
don't try to get back on your feet and whatever.
Just rest. And then I can't remember what the third
ones I think it might have been, like, was it
till like write down you know what what you were
really feeling, like the real shit, not the like I'll
(45:24):
be okay, but.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
We do tend to do that we tend to, as
your mom would probably agree with me on, we tend
to look at everybody and go, no, we're fine, we're fine,
We're fine. It's I don't even think it's about reassuring ourselves.
It's about reassuring everyone around us.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah, because they're uncomfortable and makes you uncomfortable, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
But I would assume that that would be incredibly healthy
and getting some of that toxic energy out of where
you are super scared, but you're not able to us
it right to the people that love you and that
are in your life all the time because you're trying
to protect them. But to just get it out on paper,
(46:09):
it's like it gets it out in the universe and gone, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah. And I think that you know, that goes for
almost anything, but I think it's especially important when you're
sort of warring with your body, you know, and warring
with you. I think being able to just be like
deeply honest about how that really makes you feel, without
(46:33):
worrying about anybody else's feelings or anybody else's reaction or
anybody else's need to make it right and make it
right and make right and find a solution for you
because that's you know, a very human reaction too, when
you see somebody love and you know that is suffering,
but like it is a lot of energy to then
take on as the person who's dealing with it. So yeah,
(46:56):
I mean, it's not Life's not for pussies.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
That's a really good saying. I like that one a lot,
and I'll probably take you up on horseback riding's coming
and getting that Utah energy.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I would love to host you. I just think we
would have such a good time together. And I just think,
you know, it's so interesting because I get asked on
occasion to do a podcast here there, but I typically,
you know, like I said, I'm kind of here in Utah,
like not even in the world anymore of Hollywood as much,
But this one, I was like, yes, yes, I'll do that.
I like, I'd really like to talk to Shannon already.
(47:33):
That's very exciting.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
So that's a huge honor. I mean, I gotta tell you,
I've got like pages and pages and pages of like
from my producer. She does. She's so good, she does
so much hard work, and I'm like, what I love
when I get someone like you on that. You know,
I do have a lot of admiration for is when
(47:55):
you just click and you have an honest conversation and
it goes where it goes, and nothing's prepared and it
just is what it is.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah. Sorry, Actually I tend to I'm not very good
at staying on track.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Are you kidding? I'm not good at it either. It
was unbelievable, like, honestly my favorite person I've interviewed so far,
And I thank you, like, I'm not going to take
up the rest of your day because I think we've
covered a lot. Is there anything that you want to cover?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
No, I'm just very grateful to've been asked to be
here today. I am like very I don't get a
lot of these kinds of conversations. I have a fifteen
year old, a twelve year old, and a seven year old.
You know, they don't want to talk about this sort
of stuff. And then there's my mom, and we talked
twice a day every day, so it's like you kind
of run out of interesting topics. So I'm just grateful
to have gotten to have this really lovely interesting conversation
(48:47):
with such a lovely interesting woman.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Thank you. You're going to make me cry, seriously, You'll
make me cry again an honor, and I'll see you
in Utah, and please tell your mom. She'll get my number.
She can give me all. I would love to talk
to her because I think somebody who's been there, who's
done it, I don't think you're ever over it. Whether
you're cured not cured, you're still in the midst of it.
(49:11):
It's always nice to connect with someone who you know
has gone through it, is going through it, and that
maybe is doing something different that could you know you
would just open you up to a totally different experience.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah, I mean, perspective is tough, and so it's if
you can maybe you know, maybe there will be something
in the conversation that inspires or shifts or or even
just comforts you know, or maybe not, but it's worth
a shot.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
And if you need any help with dog stuff over
there in Utah, let me know. I love you, thank you,
I will help. It's like my passion. It's what I
care a lot about, along with educating people in cancer.
So whatever you need for me, I'm here for you,
and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
In Utah. All right, thank you,
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