June 8, 2024 • 22 mins
In the second part of the show, discuss the impact of the war in Palestine, and its effect on things stateside. We also discuss reparations, the landback movement, and actions that individuals can take to support non-profits in their communities.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Keep on riding with us as we continue to broadcast
the balance and defend the discourse from these hip hop
weekly studios.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome back to Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I'm your host, rams' ja big shout out to my
man q Ward who is out globe trotting, but.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Have no fear. We have a couple of special guests
with us today.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Special guest interviewer Leanna Taylor of the Arizona Pet Project.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well and our guest of the hour. He goes by
the name of Boulet.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
He's a writer, speaker, Vegan Pisces those are important, and
the former executive director of RVC, a nonprofit in Seattle
that promotes social justice by developing leaders of color, strengthening
organizations led by communities of color, and fostering collaboration among
diverse communities. He currently writes the blog Nonprofit af and
is involved with community centric fundraising. We are going to
(00:47):
continue to have a fantastic conversation diving into nonprofit work
and how it could be better and some of the
things to look forward to after we discuss ba BA
becoming a better ally BABA and Today's Baba. Sponsored by
Friends of the Movement. You can sign up for the
free boter wallet from Fotmglobal dot com to support black
businesses and allied businesses as well as make an impact
(01:10):
with your spending. Again, that's Fotmglobal dot com today. To
become a better ally, we would like for you to
support NAF. I'm going to share a bit from NONPROFITAF
dot com. You can contribute by a Patreon. Nonprofit AF
publishes every week. Each post takes many hours and multiple
bars of dark chocolate to research, write, edit, and find
(01:33):
and insert pictures of baby animals. Join the NAF community
by being a Patreon patron and donating a couple of
bucks each month on Patreon. Thank you for keeping this
going and also one time donations can be made through
PayPal and you can also subscribe for email updates. Again,
that's at NONPROFITAF dot com, the site that is championed
(01:55):
by our guest of the Hour. I'd also like you
to pay attention to the eras on a pet project.
Our guest host, Leanna Taylor heads the Arizona Pet Project
and from their website support the Arizona Pet Project at
Azypetproject dot org. Extended helping hand to families with pets
and needs in need. By becoming an Arizona Pet partner,
our partners make the important work we do in our
(02:16):
community possible. With your support, we provide our most vulnerable
community members in crisis with free services like veterinarity care,
temporary boarding, pet food assistants, and lost pet reunification. Again
that's Azpetproject dot Org. I think that both of these
are fantastic initiatives. And I know, at least you know,
(02:40):
we don't deal with pets all that often on the show,
But I do want you to know that I have
become a believer. I'm not the biggest fan of pets,
but I become a believer in the connection that humans
and animals have and how important that is for people's
mental health and obviously a dispreportioning effects can inities of color.
(03:01):
So again, Azypetproject dot Org. All right, back to the
man of the hour, Leanna. Yes, I want to sho
start us off.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
All right, Well, we're going to dive into a couple
of more difficult topics, topics you and I have talked
a little bit about over the past couple of months.
But before we do that, you use the imagery of
unicorns a lot in your work, And I wondered if
you would tell the listeners why why unicorns? And how
(03:29):
do we use that as a call to action for
getting more leaders of color involved in nonprofit and philanthropic work.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yeah, a few years ago I was writing this blog
post ranting about how people don't want to pay for people.
They want to pay for supplies and things, you know,
food sandwiches, or they don't want to pay for the
people making the sandwiches, And I was like, who do
you think it's going to run these programs? Is it?
Do you think it's going to be like elves and
unicorn horns magically if you have nowhere and the image
(04:03):
of this of the unicorns a kind of a mascot
because we are we're magical, where we as nonprofit leaders
are expected to be unicorns, to perform miracles on magic
and constantly scrambling for resources all the time. So that
kind of caught on and it's become kind of this
unofficial mascot of the nonprofit sector here. But I think
(04:26):
I think that we need to learn some other lessons.
Unicorns have very sharp horns. We've been like this nice, magical,
friendly creature, But I think we need to stab more
with our horns. So horns of equity and justice. I
think that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
That's the important part, horns of equity and justice, and
we'll use it to stab people in the face, which
I believe is a direct quote. The other question I
wanted to ask you is those of us in nonprofit
have had a mortal enemy, and that enemy is hummah.
Can you tell the listeners why.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Oh no, we don't have a moral enemy. I love hummus.
We love hummus, but is also and it's also like
a good symbol for our sector. Right. It is nutritious,
it's delicious, it's cheap, it's filling. That's that's the nonprofit
sector and oftentimes underappreciated because people are like, oh, it's
just hum miss, But a good Hummus takes a lot
(05:26):
of work and skill to make the right balance of
the heini and lemon juice and everything that is. That
is very important. So I don't know where I'm going
with this.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I guess yeah, and I guess my immortal my mortal
enemy ship with hummus is just that it's at every
nonprofit event. It is apparently the only thing that both
thunders and nonprofits can afford.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Well, you know what that brings me the.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Thought the last eight months, about eight months.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Have been particularly troubling.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
You know, this show covers a broad range of topics,
but obviously since October seventh, a lot of things have
have shifted. You know, once upon a time there was
this really strong pro black movement, let's call it twenty twenty.
(06:31):
Maybe a year after that, there was this really strong,
pronounced stop Asian hate movement, and you know, we had
to shift gears and accommodate these these movements because these
were communities in neat And then, of course, since since October,
we've learned that Palestinian people in particular, and to a
(06:52):
larger extent Muslim people have kind of been enduring something
that is particularly channeling here. I want you to help
for our listeners, help help connect some of the issues
surrounding that. In other words, how does what's happening in
Palestine connect to American issues?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, I mean we talked about October seventh and what's
been happening, but you know, what's been happening to Palestine
has been going on over seventy five years since Nakbav
I think nineteen forty eight and the US government has
been supporting Israel and setting weapons like and sending dollars
(07:39):
every single year, like I think about four billion dollars
a year, and recently it's like an additional fourteen billion
dollars of our taxpayer's money is going there to fund
this genocide of Palestinians. And we're also like stopping, we're
vetoing ceasefire deals where we're basically enable link this genocide
(08:01):
that Israel has been committing. And I think that we
should care because this money could be used here to
solve issues over here in the United States with veterans,
with homelessness, with the environments, also with education. There's just
we we still have like the Flint water crisis, Like
that's not gone away. People are still having issues accessing
(08:21):
clean water in parts of the US. And meanwhile, we're
just sending money over to a foreign country to commit genocide,
and so we should be paying attention. This is just
not like had something that's happening over there to other people.
We're supporting it. We are complicit in enabling this genocide.
So we absolutely do need to care because it's our
(08:42):
money funding.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
It, and it's been it's been pretty quiet in the
nonprofit sector in speaking out about this, and I think
that's a frustration that many people in the social justice
movement and who were involved in the BLM movement in
twenty twenty, there seems to be a massive disconnect between
(09:06):
people's understanding of how this particular issue also relates to
the struggles that you know that people here have been fighting.
And I know you wrote a really poignant blog piece
about that. Do you mind touching a little bit on that.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah. I mean, we've been talking about equity and justice
for a long time in the sector in society, right,
and it seems that we've forgotten a lot of the
lessons that we've been learning that we should be learning
about standing with the oppressed, about power dynamics, you know,
Like I think people always say things like, oh, you know,
it's complicated, or it's a war. It's not a war
(09:49):
when one side is the fourth largest army in the
in the world, the fourth most powerful army in the world,
which is Israel, and the other side doesn't even have
an army right and no supplies and no support from
any Western power like the United States or Canada. So
it's not an equal footing here. So I just feel
(10:11):
like we've been trying to learn things from BLM and
from other movements that are really vital and important, and
we've just kind of we've just lost we've lost the
lessons we've learned, and it has been very frustrating when
right now we really do need to be using these
lessons that we've we've been learning.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So, yeah, yeah, there's a there's another you know, there's
a lot of things that you know, you're making a
broader connection to kind of the goings on in the
government and the things that are necessary, the things that
actually can create the changes and the outcomes that we
(10:50):
would like to see on the ground. Again, those of
us closest to the problem are often closest to the solutions.
So one of the things that I know you're familiar
with is the idea of reparations and how that could
impact and shape outcomes. So talk a little bit about
reparations and kind of where that falls in the overall
(11:13):
equation here.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Yeah, we're going to move away from this charity, this
philanthropy as charity and like a hobby for the rich,
into towards actual the philanthropia as a mechanism for justice
and we do need to talk about reparation. It can't
just be a hobby for rich people anymore. It needs
to be about how do we restore to wholeness communists
(11:36):
that have been affected negatively affected by white supremacy and
just awfulness over over the past several hundred years or so.
So I'm glad to see that more and more people
are talking about reparation, and more governments are starting to
think about doing things such as buying land and returning
that land back to native communities, or ensuring like providing
(12:01):
reparation for descendants of people who were enslaved. Like these
are things that are really critical, and it does, and
you know, like it takes different forms. There could be
like major efforts to try to do restorative reparative work,
but I think each of us can also think about this.
I was talking to a friend of mine who attended
a workshop where she discovered that her family's wealth was
(12:22):
built on literally stealing a Native family's land. And when
she discovered this, she had this epiphany where she wanted,
you know, she was committed to when she gets her inheritance,
she is going to return one hundred percent of this
money back to the Native community. It's fantastic, and we're
starting to see more and more donors taking up these
(12:43):
conversations which in the past they have never really touched
on because again, we've been treating them as heroes. We've
been trained to We've been trained to treat.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Them that way.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
And now I think that we need to understand we've
been underestimating our donors and our the funders of ability
to actually have some very difficult conversations and uncomfortable conversations,
and I think we need to have these conversations that
we're going to be effective in creating this just an
equitable world that we want to see.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Talk a little bit about, you know, for our listeners
because we haven't delved into it too deeply, but talk
a little bit about the kind of the land back
hashtag land back movement, because I feel like you kind
of touched around it, So just touch on that a
bit too, because I think that's something that is kind
of a special movement in and of itself.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Yeah, I am not native, so I am I'm definitely
no experts on this, on this movement, but I do
believe in it. I do support you know that the
importance of recognizing just the injustice is that have been
done to Native communities, the lands that were stolen. I mean,
we have to acknowledge that we're on well on stolen land.
(13:57):
But it's not enough to just acknowledge it. We need
start thinking about doing something. And I think some governments,
state governments, I think some probably in California and some
other places I know in New Zealand as well as
other countries, are thinking about, Okay, how do we actually
return land to Native communities.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Canada just had a couple of pretty historic land transfers
back to the indigenous First Nations communities. One was in
my hometown of Vancouver, right in the middle of the city.
People said it couldn't be done, but it is. And
then the other one is up in a Blueberry River
area for the indigenous peoples there. You know, Canada's got
(14:37):
a long, long, long way to go before they right
the wrongs of centuries of abuse of power and genocidal actions.
But I was heartened at this first step because I
think it shows that it can be done real quick.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
While we're here, I want to make sure that I
take them to acknowledge and thank you for this.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
VU.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I want to acknowledge that we are broadcasting from the
unseated ancestral lands of the Akima Odam peoples. So you
know this much we can do right now. So I
know that we could spend all day talking about that,
and I appreciate that much. And I asked for that
only because I know you're not native, but you know,
(15:28):
you just seem to be more familiar and working in
that space. And that's something that's a conversation we've yet
to have. We've been trying for some time, but getting
the right person here to have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
We're still working on it.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I think it's also just it's really important in talking
to somebody like VU who really is an expert in
nonprofit work. How does all of this intersect, Why do
these seemingly individual issues matter when we're talking about broader
community change and that intersectionality of struggle, How this issue
relates to this issue, and how those of us in
(16:00):
nonprofit really are beholden to think about all of those
structures and systems that have upheld status quo so we
can work together to dismantle them all.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Now, I want to talk to you about burnout.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And perhaps you know.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Backlash against DEI work and if that is contributing to
or does contribute to to burnout in the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have a lot of factors
creating burnout in the nonprofit sector in the first place,
the lack of pay, the unstable funding, unpredictable revenues model
that we have what we rely on, the whims of
donors and funders. That has been very challenging. I mean,
there's a lot of underpayment in the nonprofit sector and
(16:56):
people leave because they can't afford to work here, and
it's very frustrating. We lose a lot of really good,
dedicated people this way. And recently we have another factor
to consider, which is after the Supreme Court kind of
overthrew affirmative action, and now that has opened a door
for conservative movements, right wing movements to start suing organizations
(17:22):
who are trying to support marginalized people, such as Fearless
Fun we're just i think trying to get more funding
to yeah, and so yeah, it's given them permission to
just go and sue everyone who just wants to have
some start doing some restorative justice work. And our sector leaders,
funders and others, instead of kind of doubling down saying
(17:45):
we believe in DEI, we need to double down, we
need to maybe increase our own lawyers to fight back
against these lawsuits. Many of these leaders go the opposite way.
We just run scared and become very risk averse and
start decreasing work. And they're funding around DEI, which is
very frustrating because it was really a challenge trying to
(18:06):
get funding for DEI work in the past before all
of this happened, and now we're having even less and
less chances actually getting the funding that we need to
advance the kind of community that we that we believe in.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, the state of affairs.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Might feel bleak, but around here we are always optimistic.
So let's talk about what we can do. Maybe some
advice for folks who maybe are some best practices for
individuals listening. These people might not run nonprofits, they might
(18:44):
not be intimately familiar with the nature of that type
of business model, but these are people that feel like
we are collectively in pursuit of a better world for
all of us. What advice or what best practices would
you offer to our listener today in terms of what
they should be doing and could be doing to create
(19:05):
meaningful changes in and around the areas in which you
feel are most likely to create impact.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Yeah, well, I mean that would take us a lot
of time to discuss, we would think. But I think
right now people just need to be more aware and
to have more conversations and to be okay with being
in this sort of discomfort when we're having these conversations,
because I don't think we can get anywhere if people
as soon as they feel a little bit uncomfortable they
(19:38):
start kind of running away and not participating anymore. I
think it takes a certain amount of privilege to be like, oh,
I don't want to be involved, I don't want to
think about that stuff. Because for many of us from
our sas communities, we have to think about this stuff
like we can't get away from it. So I would
say for those of us those who have privileges, and
I think all of us have some sort of privilege
in some ways, right, I mean, like I have male privilege.
(20:01):
For example, I have an able body privilege. I have
neural typical privilege. And I had to start thinking about,
like what what does that mean for me? And how
do I actually contribute to making the world better. So,
for example, I had been ranting about all these things.
For a long time, I've been speaking up against you know,
like Israel's action and genocidal behavior against Palestinians, and that
(20:25):
has cost me a lot of followers, speaking engagements and
so on. But I understood. But I know I am
a privileged person and I can take the hits and
be okay with that. Like I think those of us
who have more privilege need to be thinking about that
privilege and figure out how we actually use this to
make the world better. And that means sometimes we got
(20:46):
to take the flak because you know, like marginalized people,
women of color, disabled people, trans people have often taken
a lot of the hits over years and years, and
it's really time for us who have more privilege to
step in.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well well said, I know that this conversation should be
continued and will be continued.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So let's do uh.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Let's let's make sure that people know you know your
social media so that they can tap in with you
and get your thoughts, and of course, mention the website
one more time where people can find your blog.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I'm at nonprofit AF dot com and you can find
me on Instagram at nonprofit AF dot com. As well
as Facebook and Twitter. I'm still calling it Twitter.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
And then Leanna make sure people know how to find
you as well.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Definitely, And I just want to give a shout out
to Community Centric Fundraising dot com as well. I think
that people should get involved there figure out how we
can reshape and reimagine what nonprofit and philanthropy looks like.
Sorry dot org, so sorry Community Centric Fundraising dot org.
But yeah, there's lots of helpful tools and ways, and
(21:58):
I think just kind of getting a firmer hand on
what that means so that we can reshape that together
as a community, and then people can find my organization
at Azypetproject dot org as well. And on social media,
We're on Instagram, LinkedIn Facebook, we have opted out of Twitter,
(22:18):
slash x, and we are at the Arizona Pet Project.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I'm not mad at at the opt out of Twitter
slash x so hashtag same. But if you would like
to follow us, we are at civic Cipher on all platforms.
Of course, you can download this in any previous episodes
at Civiccipeer civiccipher dot com.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Try to give us a follow on.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
YouTube because we are growing there and your support would
be well received and also don't be afraid to make
a donation again at civiccipher dot com. I'd like to
thank you both for being on the show today and
until next week, y'all peace,
Keep on riding with us as we continue to broadcast
the balance and defend the discourse from these hip hop
weekly studios.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome back to Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I'm your host, rams' ja big shout out to my
man q Ward who is out globe trotting, but.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Have no fear. We have a couple of special guests
with us today.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Special guest interviewer Leanna Taylor of the Arizona Pet Project.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well and our guest of the hour. He goes by
the name of Boulet.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
He's a writer, speaker, Vegan Pisces those are important, and
the former executive director of RVC, a nonprofit in Seattle
that promotes social justice by developing leaders of color, strengthening
organizations led by communities of color, and fostering collaboration among
diverse communities. He currently writes the blog Nonprofit af and
is involved with community centric fundraising. We are going to
(00:47):
continue to have a fantastic conversation diving into nonprofit work
and how it could be better and some of the
things to look forward to after we discuss ba BA
becoming a better ally BABA and Today's Baba. Sponsored by
Friends of the Movement. You can sign up for the
free boter wallet from Fotmglobal dot com to support black
businesses and allied businesses as well as make an impact
(01:10):
with your spending. Again, that's Fotmglobal dot com today. To
become a better ally, we would like for you to
support NAF. I'm going to share a bit from NONPROFITAF
dot com. You can contribute by a Patreon. Nonprofit AF
publishes every week. Each post takes many hours and multiple
bars of dark chocolate to research, write, edit, and find
(01:33):
and insert pictures of baby animals. Join the NAF community
by being a Patreon patron and donating a couple of
bucks each month on Patreon. Thank you for keeping this
going and also one time donations can be made through
PayPal and you can also subscribe for email updates. Again,
that's at NONPROFITAF dot com, the site that is championed
(01:55):
by our guest of the Hour. I'd also like you
to pay attention to the eras on a pet project.
Our guest host, Leanna Taylor heads the Arizona Pet Project
and from their website support the Arizona Pet Project at
Azypetproject dot org. Extended helping hand to families with pets
and needs in need. By becoming an Arizona Pet partner,
our partners make the important work we do in our
(02:16):
community possible. With your support, we provide our most vulnerable
community members in crisis with free services like veterinarity care,
temporary boarding, pet food assistants, and lost pet reunification. Again
that's Azpetproject dot Org. I think that both of these
are fantastic initiatives. And I know, at least you know,
(02:40):
we don't deal with pets all that often on the show,
But I do want you to know that I have
become a believer. I'm not the biggest fan of pets,
but I become a believer in the connection that humans
and animals have and how important that is for people's
mental health and obviously a dispreportioning effects can inities of color.
(03:01):
So again, Azypetproject dot Org. All right, back to the
man of the hour, Leanna. Yes, I want to sho
start us off.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
All right, Well, we're going to dive into a couple
of more difficult topics, topics you and I have talked
a little bit about over the past couple of months.
But before we do that, you use the imagery of
unicorns a lot in your work, And I wondered if
you would tell the listeners why why unicorns? And how
(03:29):
do we use that as a call to action for
getting more leaders of color involved in nonprofit and philanthropic work.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yeah, a few years ago I was writing this blog
post ranting about how people don't want to pay for people.
They want to pay for supplies and things, you know,
food sandwiches, or they don't want to pay for the
people making the sandwiches, And I was like, who do
you think it's going to run these programs? Is it?
Do you think it's going to be like elves and
unicorn horns magically if you have nowhere and the image
(04:03):
of this of the unicorns a kind of a mascot
because we are we're magical, where we as nonprofit leaders
are expected to be unicorns, to perform miracles on magic
and constantly scrambling for resources all the time. So that
kind of caught on and it's become kind of this
unofficial mascot of the nonprofit sector here. But I think
(04:26):
I think that we need to learn some other lessons.
Unicorns have very sharp horns. We've been like this nice, magical,
friendly creature, But I think we need to stab more
with our horns. So horns of equity and justice. I
think that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
That's the important part, horns of equity and justice, and
we'll use it to stab people in the face, which
I believe is a direct quote. The other question I
wanted to ask you is those of us in nonprofit
have had a mortal enemy, and that enemy is hummah.
Can you tell the listeners why.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Oh no, we don't have a moral enemy. I love hummus.
We love hummus, but is also and it's also like
a good symbol for our sector. Right. It is nutritious,
it's delicious, it's cheap, it's filling. That's that's the nonprofit
sector and oftentimes underappreciated because people are like, oh, it's
just hum miss, But a good Hummus takes a lot
(05:26):
of work and skill to make the right balance of
the heini and lemon juice and everything that is. That
is very important. So I don't know where I'm going
with this.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I guess yeah, and I guess my immortal my mortal
enemy ship with hummus is just that it's at every
nonprofit event. It is apparently the only thing that both
thunders and nonprofits can afford.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Well, you know what that brings me the.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Thought the last eight months, about eight months.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Have been particularly troubling.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
You know, this show covers a broad range of topics,
but obviously since October seventh, a lot of things have
have shifted. You know, once upon a time there was
this really strong pro black movement, let's call it twenty twenty.
(06:31):
Maybe a year after that, there was this really strong,
pronounced stop Asian hate movement, and you know, we had
to shift gears and accommodate these these movements because these
were communities in neat And then, of course, since since October,
we've learned that Palestinian people in particular, and to a
(06:52):
larger extent Muslim people have kind of been enduring something
that is particularly channeling here. I want you to help
for our listeners, help help connect some of the issues
surrounding that. In other words, how does what's happening in
Palestine connect to American issues?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, I mean we talked about October seventh and what's
been happening, but you know, what's been happening to Palestine
has been going on over seventy five years since Nakbav
I think nineteen forty eight and the US government has
been supporting Israel and setting weapons like and sending dollars
(07:39):
every single year, like I think about four billion dollars
a year, and recently it's like an additional fourteen billion
dollars of our taxpayer's money is going there to fund
this genocide of Palestinians. And we're also like stopping, we're
vetoing ceasefire deals where we're basically enable link this genocide
(08:01):
that Israel has been committing. And I think that we
should care because this money could be used here to
solve issues over here in the United States with veterans,
with homelessness, with the environments, also with education. There's just
we we still have like the Flint water crisis, Like
that's not gone away. People are still having issues accessing
(08:21):
clean water in parts of the US. And meanwhile, we're
just sending money over to a foreign country to commit genocide,
and so we should be paying attention. This is just
not like had something that's happening over there to other people.
We're supporting it. We are complicit in enabling this genocide.
So we absolutely do need to care because it's our
(08:42):
money funding.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
It, and it's been it's been pretty quiet in the
nonprofit sector in speaking out about this, and I think
that's a frustration that many people in the social justice
movement and who were involved in the BLM movement in
twenty twenty, there seems to be a massive disconnect between
(09:06):
people's understanding of how this particular issue also relates to
the struggles that you know that people here have been fighting.
And I know you wrote a really poignant blog piece
about that. Do you mind touching a little bit on that.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah. I mean, we've been talking about equity and justice
for a long time in the sector in society, right,
and it seems that we've forgotten a lot of the
lessons that we've been learning that we should be learning
about standing with the oppressed, about power dynamics, you know,
Like I think people always say things like, oh, you know,
it's complicated, or it's a war. It's not a war
(09:49):
when one side is the fourth largest army in the
in the world, the fourth most powerful army in the world,
which is Israel, and the other side doesn't even have
an army right and no supplies and no support from
any Western power like the United States or Canada. So
it's not an equal footing here. So I just feel
(10:11):
like we've been trying to learn things from BLM and
from other movements that are really vital and important, and
we've just kind of we've just lost we've lost the
lessons we've learned, and it has been very frustrating when
right now we really do need to be using these
lessons that we've we've been learning.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So, yeah, yeah, there's a there's another you know, there's
a lot of things that you know, you're making a
broader connection to kind of the goings on in the
government and the things that are necessary, the things that
actually can create the changes and the outcomes that we
(10:50):
would like to see on the ground. Again, those of
us closest to the problem are often closest to the solutions.
So one of the things that I know you're familiar
with is the idea of reparations and how that could
impact and shape outcomes. So talk a little bit about
reparations and kind of where that falls in the overall
(11:13):
equation here.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Yeah, we're going to move away from this charity, this
philanthropy as charity and like a hobby for the rich,
into towards actual the philanthropia as a mechanism for justice
and we do need to talk about reparation. It can't
just be a hobby for rich people anymore. It needs
to be about how do we restore to wholeness communists
(11:36):
that have been affected negatively affected by white supremacy and
just awfulness over over the past several hundred years or so.
So I'm glad to see that more and more people
are talking about reparation, and more governments are starting to
think about doing things such as buying land and returning
that land back to native communities, or ensuring like providing
(12:01):
reparation for descendants of people who were enslaved. Like these
are things that are really critical, and it does, and
you know, like it takes different forms. There could be
like major efforts to try to do restorative reparative work,
but I think each of us can also think about this.
I was talking to a friend of mine who attended
a workshop where she discovered that her family's wealth was
(12:22):
built on literally stealing a Native family's land. And when
she discovered this, she had this epiphany where she wanted,
you know, she was committed to when she gets her inheritance,
she is going to return one hundred percent of this
money back to the Native community. It's fantastic, and we're
starting to see more and more donors taking up these
(12:43):
conversations which in the past they have never really touched
on because again, we've been treating them as heroes. We've
been trained to We've been trained to treat.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Them that way.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
And now I think that we need to understand we've
been underestimating our donors and our the funders of ability
to actually have some very difficult conversations and uncomfortable conversations,
and I think we need to have these conversations that
we're going to be effective in creating this just an
equitable world that we want to see.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Talk a little bit about, you know, for our listeners
because we haven't delved into it too deeply, but talk
a little bit about the kind of the land back
hashtag land back movement, because I feel like you kind
of touched around it, So just touch on that a
bit too, because I think that's something that is kind
of a special movement in and of itself.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Yeah, I am not native, so I am I'm definitely
no experts on this, on this movement, but I do
believe in it. I do support you know that the
importance of recognizing just the injustice is that have been
done to Native communities, the lands that were stolen. I mean,
we have to acknowledge that we're on well on stolen land.
(13:57):
But it's not enough to just acknowledge it. We need
start thinking about doing something. And I think some governments,
state governments, I think some probably in California and some
other places I know in New Zealand as well as
other countries, are thinking about, Okay, how do we actually
return land to Native communities.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Canada just had a couple of pretty historic land transfers
back to the indigenous First Nations communities. One was in
my hometown of Vancouver, right in the middle of the city.
People said it couldn't be done, but it is. And
then the other one is up in a Blueberry River
area for the indigenous peoples there. You know, Canada's got
(14:37):
a long, long, long way to go before they right
the wrongs of centuries of abuse of power and genocidal actions.
But I was heartened at this first step because I
think it shows that it can be done real quick.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
While we're here, I want to make sure that I
take them to acknowledge and thank you for this.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
VU.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I want to acknowledge that we are broadcasting from the
unseated ancestral lands of the Akima Odam peoples. So you
know this much we can do right now. So I
know that we could spend all day talking about that,
and I appreciate that much. And I asked for that
only because I know you're not native, but you know,
(15:28):
you just seem to be more familiar and working in
that space. And that's something that's a conversation we've yet
to have. We've been trying for some time, but getting
the right person here to have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
We're still working on it.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I think it's also just it's really important in talking
to somebody like VU who really is an expert in
nonprofit work. How does all of this intersect, Why do
these seemingly individual issues matter when we're talking about broader
community change and that intersectionality of struggle, How this issue
relates to this issue, and how those of us in
(16:00):
nonprofit really are beholden to think about all of those
structures and systems that have upheld status quo so we
can work together to dismantle them all.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Now, I want to talk to you about burnout.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And perhaps you know.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Backlash against DEI work and if that is contributing to
or does contribute to to burnout in the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have a lot of factors
creating burnout in the nonprofit sector in the first place,
the lack of pay, the unstable funding, unpredictable revenues model
that we have what we rely on, the whims of
donors and funders. That has been very challenging. I mean,
there's a lot of underpayment in the nonprofit sector and
(16:56):
people leave because they can't afford to work here, and
it's very frustrating. We lose a lot of really good,
dedicated people this way. And recently we have another factor
to consider, which is after the Supreme Court kind of
overthrew affirmative action, and now that has opened a door
for conservative movements, right wing movements to start suing organizations
(17:22):
who are trying to support marginalized people, such as Fearless
Fun we're just i think trying to get more funding
to yeah, and so yeah, it's given them permission to
just go and sue everyone who just wants to have
some start doing some restorative justice work. And our sector leaders,
funders and others, instead of kind of doubling down saying
(17:45):
we believe in DEI, we need to double down, we
need to maybe increase our own lawyers to fight back
against these lawsuits. Many of these leaders go the opposite way.
We just run scared and become very risk averse and
start decreasing work. And they're funding around DEI, which is
very frustrating because it was really a challenge trying to
(18:06):
get funding for DEI work in the past before all
of this happened, and now we're having even less and
less chances actually getting the funding that we need to
advance the kind of community that we that we believe in.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Well, the state of affairs.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Might feel bleak, but around here we are always optimistic.
So let's talk about what we can do. Maybe some
advice for folks who maybe are some best practices for
individuals listening. These people might not run nonprofits, they might
(18:44):
not be intimately familiar with the nature of that type
of business model, but these are people that feel like
we are collectively in pursuit of a better world for
all of us. What advice or what best practices would
you offer to our listener today in terms of what
they should be doing and could be doing to create
(19:05):
meaningful changes in and around the areas in which you
feel are most likely to create impact.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
Yeah, well, I mean that would take us a lot
of time to discuss, we would think. But I think
right now people just need to be more aware and
to have more conversations and to be okay with being
in this sort of discomfort when we're having these conversations,
because I don't think we can get anywhere if people
as soon as they feel a little bit uncomfortable they
(19:38):
start kind of running away and not participating anymore. I
think it takes a certain amount of privilege to be like, oh,
I don't want to be involved, I don't want to
think about that stuff. Because for many of us from
our sas communities, we have to think about this stuff
like we can't get away from it. So I would
say for those of us those who have privileges, and
I think all of us have some sort of privilege
in some ways, right, I mean, like I have male privilege.
(20:01):
For example, I have an able body privilege. I have
neural typical privilege. And I had to start thinking about,
like what what does that mean for me? And how
do I actually contribute to making the world better. So,
for example, I had been ranting about all these things.
For a long time, I've been speaking up against you know,
like Israel's action and genocidal behavior against Palestinians, and that
(20:25):
has cost me a lot of followers, speaking engagements and
so on. But I understood. But I know I am
a privileged person and I can take the hits and
be okay with that. Like I think those of us
who have more privilege need to be thinking about that
privilege and figure out how we actually use this to
make the world better. And that means sometimes we got
(20:46):
to take the flak because you know, like marginalized people,
women of color, disabled people, trans people have often taken
a lot of the hits over years and years, and
it's really time for us who have more privilege to
step in.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well well said, I know that this conversation should be
continued and will be continued.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So let's do uh.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Let's let's make sure that people know you know your
social media so that they can tap in with you
and get your thoughts, and of course, mention the website
one more time where people can find your blog.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I'm at nonprofit AF dot com and you can find
me on Instagram at nonprofit AF dot com. As well
as Facebook and Twitter. I'm still calling it Twitter.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
And then Leanna make sure people know how to find
you as well.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Definitely, And I just want to give a shout out
to Community Centric Fundraising dot com as well. I think
that people should get involved there figure out how we
can reshape and reimagine what nonprofit and philanthropy looks like.
Sorry dot org, so sorry Community Centric Fundraising dot org.
But yeah, there's lots of helpful tools and ways, and
(21:58):
I think just kind of getting a firmer hand on
what that means so that we can reshape that together
as a community, and then people can find my organization
at Azypetproject dot org as well. And on social media,
We're on Instagram, LinkedIn Facebook, we have opted out of Twitter,
(22:18):
slash x, and we are at the Arizona Pet Project.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I'm not mad at at the opt out of Twitter
slash x so hashtag same. But if you would like
to follow us, we are at civic Cipher on all platforms.
Of course, you can download this in any previous episodes
at Civiccipeer civiccipher dot com.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Try to give us a follow on.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
YouTube because we are growing there and your support would
be well received and also don't be afraid to make
a donation again at civiccipher dot com. I'd like to
thank you both for being on the show today and
until next week, y'all peace,
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