Viv Groskop, writer, broadcaster and standup comedian
The second I saw the gyrations of health and safety executive Gerald Wright (David Haig), airing his damp crotch under the hand dryer in the men's toilets, I knew the critics would take Ben Elton to pieces. Also featured in The Wright Way, Elton's new sitcom, which aired on BBC1 this week: lesbians with saucy knickers and council officers talking about their latest erections. "The star who's lost his sparkle." "One after another his sitcoms have withered and died." "So groan-inducing that you want to gather a mob with torches and pitchforks." "What on earth has happened to Ben Elton?"
Nothing has happened to Ben Elton. He is doing what he has always done: finding ideas that make some people laugh. (Note: some people. No one can do better than that.) Love or hate the material – and, yes, most of the jokes themselves are about as original as the concept of launching an attack on Ben Elton – there's a market. Get over it. It's the same ballpark as Miranda or Mrs Brown's Boys, which both have massive audiences. It's not that Elton has got old and lost his touch. He's found a formula (let's call it "impotent man rage") that has worked consistently for him for 30 years. I haven't exactly pre-ordered the DVD of The Wright Way. But I did laugh at Gerald getting his pants wet. So hit me with a We Will Rock You coffee mug (actual item).
Bruce Dessau, comedy critic and editor of beyondthejoke.co.uk
I never thought I'd find myself even partially agreeing with Frankie Boyle, but having seen, sorry, suffered, The Wright Way, I think he might have a point when he said standup comedians lose their focus after they hit 40. He was about a decade out, though. Ben Elton is 53 and I'd happily bet my signed Blackadder box set he is never going to write another classic sitcom. There might be a few gagsmiths who find their voice in middle age, such as Micky Flanagan, but most peak earlier. Comedians are human. Billy Connolly, 70, recently acknowledged that his memory is not as sharp as it was.
Nobody expected Elton's new sitcom to be cutting-edge, but it was a succession of creaky cliches and sub-par one-liners. His 1980s routines about overfilled bins and getting double seats on the train brilliantly touched a nerve. There was nothing close to that here. If The Wright Way is in the same ballpark as Miranda and Mrs Brown's Boys, this is a very big ballpark. All are old-fashioned, certainly, but Miranda includes a knowing wink to the camera and Mrs Brown's Boys at least does slapstick properly. The Wright Way was laughable, but not in a good way.
VG: I'm guessing that maybe someone like Louis CK (aged 45) holds a place in your heart once occupied by Ben Elton many years ago? Louis CK is no spring chicken and his stuff is just getting better and better. No one is older than Joan Rivers (actual age: 197) but I didn't see anyone walking out of the sold-out 6,000-seater Royal Albert Hall when she played there a couple of months ago.
I know for sure that you love Daniel Kitson (and who doesn't). OK, so he's only 35 but his beard, his manner and his general wisdom make him come across as more ancient than God. I bet you're not expecting him to go off the boil in the next five years. And what about Jo Brand? Writer of a Bafta award-winning sitcom (Getting On) aged 55.
I don't think this is about age and losing focus. It's about fashions in comedy. Ben Elton found his voice precociously early: it's one-liners, puns, innuendo. We can argue over the best use of the signed Blackadder box set. I think we would both like to use it to bat away the proud erections of Gerald Wright's health and safety team. But the problem with Ben Elton is not that he has changed, it's that he has stayed the same.
BD: Standup comedy is like a muscle, you have to exercise it regularly or it stiffens up. I wonder if, living in Australia, Ben Elton has had too much sun. Louis CK performs all the time and despite looking paunchy is supremely match fit, but I still think we are possibly seeing him peaking.
There are plenty of funny comedians in their 50s – Frank Skinner, Jack Dee – but their groundbreaking work is probably behind them. The brilliant Daniel Kitson has a free pass when it comes to comedy debates – and will probably still be brilliant when he has a free bus pass. However, he may well move further into Alan Bennett-style theatrical territory. Standup feels like a youngish person's game. Survival of the quickest and wittiest. You wouldn't expect David Beckham to play football for ever, so why expect a comedian to be at the top for ever?
I heartily disagree on your last point, though. I don't think it is about falling out of fashion, it is about creative capital. Some comedians just have more in the bank than others. Jonathan Miller said of Peter Cook that "the terrible thing about comedy is it runs out". Which is funny because The Wright Way made me run out – of the room screaming.
VG: Hee hee. Obviously I did not run out of the room screaming because, being a woman, I was actually in the bathroom, the place where women spend all their time (© Ben Elton). OK, so this now is getting interesting. We are not talking about whether people can still be funny at any age. Most comics can easily do that if their audience stays with them. Which may not be a "cool" audience and may definitely not please critics such as yourself. See Ken Dodd, aged 85, still performing one-man shows in suburban theatres until 1am to people like my parents.
Instead we are talking about "groundbreaking work" and being critically acclaimed. That has sod all to do with being funny (and is frequently the enemy of it). Of course The Wright Way should not be mentioned in the same breath as Doctor Brown, Josie Long, The Boy with Tape on his Face, Bridget Christie, Cardinal Burns, Sara Pascoe or Pappy's. But being of the moment, young and fresh is not the "best" laugh or the only way to get laughs. Disclaimer: please agree at least slightly as I am very new to standup, a bit slow and pushing 40.
BD: Come now, Viv, judging from your picture you don't look a day over 31, you've got years in you yet. Anyway, age discrimination aside, there should not be a gap between cool critical favourites and what the public like. I enjoy Kitson and Stewart Lee but also bits of Michael McIntyre (not so keen on Roy Chubby Brown). Talented comedians will keep their audience as they grow older, but after 50 they are unlikely to add fans of their age to their fanbase unless they start doing tours of sheltered accommodation. You don't notice many grey hairs at comedy gigs.
As for Ken Dodd, the suburban theatres can keep him. Last time I saw Doddy do his marathon set he had become a self-parody, warning the audience to bring sandwiches, etc. I'm not saying standups have to undergo Bowie-style ch-ch-changes in their dotage, but a bit of evolution would be nice. And I don't just mean adding quips about prostate tests and Botox. Check out Norman Lovett. I adore all those acts you namecheck probably more than Ken Dodd. Maybe I just crave fresh blood. Maybe I'm half-critic, half-vampire. Please stick at the standup, Viv: there's bound to be an opening soon. Joan Rivers surely can't last for ever.