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Nicola Sturgeon tells May blocking Scottish independence referendum would be 'undemocratic' - as it happened

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Rolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happen

 Updated 
Thu 16 Mar 2017 13.34 EDTFirst published on Thu 16 Mar 2017 04.59 EDT
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Afternoon summary

  • Campaign groups have attacked “truly shocking” new figures (pdf) showing four million children are affected by poverty. As the Press Association reports, the Children’s Society said the situation was “clearly getting worse”, estimating that almost a third of children were now living in poverty. Matthew Reed, chief executive of the Children’s Society, said:

Any child living in poverty is one too many, but it is truly shocking that four million children are now affected by poverty.

The situation is clearly getting worse, with nearly a third of children, or around nine in the average classroom, now living in poverty.

  • Pascal Lamy, the former director-general of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), has said leaving the EU without a trade deal or a transitional deal would be “terribly bad” for Britain. Speaking on the World at One, he said he did not think it would be possible to conclude a trade deal within two years. He said:

It’s a very, very, very complex issue, at least the number of the issues you’ve got to settle and agree on [is] if not millions, hundreds. Some of them might be reasonably simple, others will be much more complex and take time.

So within the next two years, assuming the British prime minister triggered this famous article 50 now, a few things will have to be settled so that exiting the EU is not the sort of cliff option, which is in some scenarios.

I think that would be terribly bad for both the UK and the continent but issues like regulation of safety standards, and the Erasmus programme, and fisheries, and whether intellectual property is protected in the UK the way it is in the continent or the other way around, will inevitably take a lot of time.

That’s all from me for today.

Thanks for the comments.

Heseltine accuses May of abandoning her pro-European beliefs

The Times’ Oliver Wright has posted on Twitter a copy of a letter from Lord Heseltine to Theresa May following his dismissal as a government adviser for voting against the Tory whip on an amendment to the article 50 bill in the Lords.

These letters are often rather bland and formal, but Heseltine’s is sharp and combative. Here are the key points.

  • Heseltine accuses May of abandoning her pro-European beliefs. He ends his letter saying:

The simple fact remains that you have changed your mind since the excellent speech you made in the referendum campaign arguing we should remain in the European Union. I have not.

  • He criticises her for sacking him from his government adviser roles, saying that he was never a member of the government, that her move ran counter to David Cameron’s decision to allow Tories a free vote on Brexit last June and that his vote did not obstruct the bill.

My only vote was designed to give the House of Commons a second chance to enshrine in law a commitment you yourself had already given to allow parliament a vote on any Brexit deal.

Heseltine's stinging letter of rebuke to May over Brexit: The simple fact is you changed your mind and I did not pic.twitter.com/pKuMtdTumq

— oliver wright (@oliver_wright) March 16, 2017

May claims Tories 'complied fully' with Electoral Commission investigation

In her interview with Robert Peston Theresa May was asked about the Electoral Commission’s investigation into Conservative election spending. She said:

First of all on the Electoral Commission report, we have complied fully with the Electoral Commission throughout their investigations. They have imposed a fine on the Conservative party and the Conservative party will be meeting that fine, will be paying that fine. In fact there were some issues that the party itself raised with the Electoral Commission through their investigations.

When May said “complied fully with the Electoral commission”, she left out the bit about “after we were taken to court”. (See 10.47am.)

In fact, in its report (pdf), the commission said that the fine it was imposing on the party was higher than it would have been because of the party’s “unreasonable uncooperative conduct”.

It said the party’s tactics “delayed without good reason and for a number of months the provision of information needed to progress the investigation” and that as a result this “increased the public funds incurred by the commission during the investigation.”

Labour accuses Tories of breaking nine manifesto promises

The Labour party has just put out a very odd press release. It is headed “Tory disarray: a government agenda unravelling”, and the main item is just a quote from Andrew Gwynne, the party’s elections chair, saying the Tories are “in a mess, riven by infighting and failure and disarray”. At first glance it looks like response to the budget U-turn sent out 24 hours late.

But, buried in the footnotes, there’s a substantial claim. Labour say the Tories have broken nine of their manifesto promises.

Here are the notes explaining what Labour sees as the broken pledges. The promises all related to things in the manifesto.

Promise: Safeguard British interests in the single market.

Broken: It is official government policy to fully leave the single market.

Promise: Move to a budget surplus in 2019-20.

Broken: Theresa May has admitted this will not happen by the end of the Parliament.

Promise: Keep council taxes low.

Broken: The government have allowed a 5 per cent increase on council tax for the next two years.

Promise: Working to eliminate child poverty.

Broken: The government abolished child poverty targets in the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016 and the IFS have forecast nearly a million more children will be pushed into poverty because of the government’s policies.

Promise: Protecting pensioner benefits

Broken: Spending on pensioner benefits is falling in real terms next year

Promise: Halving the disability employment gap

Broken: The disability employment gap has fallen by less than a tenth since 2015.

Promise: Protect per pupil spending.

Broken: Funding per pupil will see a real-terms reduction once inflation is taken into account.

Promise: Keep the size of the army at 82,000.

Broken: In November 2016, the number of trained army regulars fell to 80,640.

Promise: Scrap the Human Rights Act and curtail the role of the European court of human rights.

Broken: Theresa May has ruled out leaving the ECHR in this parliament. Now government sources claim plans to leave the ECHR will feature in the 2020 manifesto, while Liz Truss has admitted there will be no British bill of rights until after Brexit.

UPDATE: James Murray from BusinessGreen.com has suggested some more.

They missed:
- Pledge to cut emissions 'as cheaply as possible'
- £1bn for CCS
- rail electrification plans https://t.co/84rxSe4Nwh

— James Murray (@James_BG) March 16, 2017
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Sturgeon says trying to block referendum would be 'untenable, undemocratic and totally unsustainable'

Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, has now issued a press statement giving her response to Theresa May’s comments about a second referendum. It reflects what she said on Twitter earlier (see 1.35pm) but her language is slightly stronger. Here’s an excerpt.

It is for the Scottish parliament – not Downing Street – to determine the timing of a referendum, and the decision of the Scottish parliament must be respected.

It would be outrageous for the Scottish parliament to be frozen out of the process.

The Scottish government has a cast-iron democratic mandate to offer people a choice and that mandate must be fulfilled.

Any bid by the UK government to block the people of Scotland from making a choice will be untenable, undemocratic and totally unsustainable – and clearly shows that the UK government recognises it is out of step with the Scottish people.

And here’s one more tweet from Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s first minister, about Theresa May’s comments.

One last point - if PM thinks we won't know terms of Brexit by autumn next year, she must think her own timetable will fail.

— Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) March 16, 2017

UK government will refuse to discuss second referendum with Sturgeon, says Mundell

David Mundell, the Scottish secretary, has said the UK government will not enter into discussions with Edinburgh about holding a second referendum. Speaking at a press conference, he said:

This argument isn’t about mandates, it’s about holding a referendum on established criteria which were set on in the Edinburgh Agreement.

That established that a referendum must be legal, fair and decisive.

The proposal brought forward is not fair, people will not be able to make an informed choice.

Neither is there public or political support for such a referendum.

Therefore we will not be entering into discussions or negotiations about a section 30 agreement and any request at this time will be declined.

David Mundell. Photograph: Matt Dunham/AP

The Scottish Greens have criticised Theresa May for opposing a second independence referendum. Ross Greer MSP, the party’s external affairs spokesman, said:

Scotland deserves to choose between the isolated, angry Brexit Britain planned by the Tories and putting our future in our own hands with independence. If a Tory Westminster government that Scotland did not elect seriously think they can block our right to choose - and that they can veto a decision of our elected parliament – they will only increase support for independence. Today’s comments underline the contemptuous attitude the Tories have toward Scotland.

It is quite clear that the Brexit deal will be known by autumn 2018, following comments from Europe’s lead negotiators. For a government dragging Scotland through a hard Brexit without a mandate and after an EU referendum where no details were presented, it reeks of hypocrisy to say we have to wait.

Here is a pro-independence take on Theresa May’s comment.

May has implicitly conceded indyref2 is now certain. Her only card now is the delay. She's played into Sturgeon’s hands but doesn't know it.

— GAPonsonby (@GAPonsonby) March 16, 2017

The government has firmly rejected calls for the people to have a vote on the final Brexit deal in a referendum. But, as Channel 4 News’ Krishnan Guru-Murthy points out, Theresa May’s comments (see 1.18pm) imply she thinks there is a case for the Scots having a say once we know “what the future partnership will be”.

I'd imagine @NicolaSturgeon quite happy for Theresa May to play into her hands by trying to block #indyref2 - will help the yes vote

— Krishnan Guru-Murthy (@krishgm) March 16, 2017

Even stranger that May's statement suggests she accepts Scots could get to judge her Brexit negotiation. rest of UK might argue the same.

— Krishnan Guru-Murthy (@krishgm) March 16, 2017

Blocking second referendum would be 'blunder of epic and historic proportions', says Scottish government

The SNP don’t do understatement. According to BBC Scotland’s Philip Sim, Nicola Sturgeon’s spokesman has said that trying to block a second independence referendum would be a “blunder of epic and historic proportions”.

FM's spokesman: "we're not proposing to have a referendum right now." PM "completely wrong" to suggest that; want Autumn 2018 at the point

— Philip Sim (@BBCPhilipSim) March 16, 2017

FM's spokesman: would be "entirely wrong" for PM to seek to block indyref2. Would be "democratically unacceptable" to rule it out completely

— Philip Sim (@BBCPhilipSim) March 16, 2017

FM's spokesman: PM has been "spectacularly unclear". If she means no discussion at all until after Brexit it would be "democratic outrage".

— Philip Sim (@BBCPhilipSim) March 16, 2017

Would ScotGov hold indyref2 regardless of PM? Spokesman says "not planning" anything other than democratic process set out in 2014 precedent

— Philip Sim (@BBCPhilipSim) March 16, 2017

FM spokesman says Theresa May seeking to block indyref2 outright would be "a blunder of epic and historic proportions"

— Philip Sim (@BBCPhilipSim) March 16, 2017

ScotGov saying next week's vote on indyref2 permission order is now more important than ever https://t.co/AQhwgam0dY

— Philip Sim (@BBCPhilipSim) March 16, 2017

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Sturgeon tells May blocking Scotland's right to hold independence referendum would be 'undemocratic'

Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, has responded to Theresa May on Twitter. She says that it would be “undemocratic” of May to block the right of Scotland to choose its future.

.@scotgov is not proposing #scotref now...but when the terms of Brexit clear and before it is too late to choose an alternative path. 1/4 https://t.co/ZR6LDtA8v8

— Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) March 16, 2017

2/4 a section 30 order must be discussed and agreed now to enable that timescale.

— Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) March 16, 2017

3/3 If the Tories refuse to do so, they would effectively be blocking Scotland's right to choose when the Brexit terms clear...

— Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) March 16, 2017

4/4 this would be undemocratic given @scotgov clear mandate and also proof positive that the Tories fear the verdict of the Scottish people.

— Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) March 16, 2017

Alex Salmond, the SNP MP and former Scottish first minister, has just raised Theresa May’s interview in the Commons, the Sun’s Steve Hawkes reports.

Alex Salmond interrupts energy debate to say PM is "dictating the timing" of a new referendum - and should address Commons

— steve hawkes (@steve_hawkes) March 16, 2017

Alex Salmond accuses PM of breathtaking "arrogance" and treating Scotland like a "county rather than the country" it is

— steve hawkes (@steve_hawkes) March 16, 2017

What Theresa May said about a second Scottish independence referendum

This is what Theresa May said (in full) when ITV’s Robert Peston asked her if she would approve a second referendum on Scottish independence.

Nothing is more important to me than seeing this United Kingdom thrive. Our precious union of nations is the most successful that the world has ever seen. And we have been joined together as one country for over 300 years. We have worked together, we have prospered together, we have fought wars together. And we have a bright future. I think there’s a bright future for us all.

That’s why as we embark on the process of a new relationship, a future relationship with the European Union, I’m going to be fighting for every person, every family, every business across the whole of the United Kingdom. That’s my focus. And I think it should be the focus of us all.

So when the SNP government say that it’s the time to start talking about a second independence referendum, I say that just at this point, all our energies should be focused on our negotiations with the European Union about our future relation

ship. And to be talking about an independence referendum would, I think, make it more difficult for us to be able to get the right deal for Scotland and the right deal for the UK.

And, more than that, I think it would not be fair to the people of Scotland because they’d be being asked to take a crucial decision without the necessary information, without knowing what the future partnership will be or what the alternative of an independent Scotland would look like.

So I think, just now, we should be putting all our energies into ensuring that we get that right deal for the UK and the right deal for Scotland in our negotiations with the European Union. That is my job as prime minister.

Right now, we should be working together, not pulling apart. We should be working together to get that right deal for Scotland, that right deal for the UK.

And so, for that reason, I say to the SNP now is not the time.

Peston then pressed her, four times by my count, on whether she was ruling out a second referendum for good, or just until after Brexit, or just until after the next general election. But every time May just repeated some of the points she made in her first answer, repeating “now is not the time” as dogmatically as she used to tell us “Brexit means Brexit”.

Peston also asked what May would do if the Scottish parliament went ahead and held its own unofficial referendum anyway. But he did not get very far with that one either. “Now is not the time,” she told him.

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BBC News is playing the clip of ITV’s Robert Peston (it was a pooled interview) interviewing Theresa May about the Scottish independence referendum.

Peston presses May on what she means by saying “now is not the time” for a second referendum. Does that mean no second referendum until after the general election?

May just repeats the line about how “now is not the time”.

This is marginally firmer than what she and her spokespeople were saying earlier in the week, when they refused to accept the need for a referendum. But it does not take us very much further, and it still leaves open the option of her agreeing to a referendum before 2020.

When you think about it, Nicola Sturgeon is also saying “now is not the time”. Sturgeon wants the referendum to be held in autumn 2018 at the earliest.

I will post the full quotes shortly.

May says 'now is not the time' for second Scottish independence referendum

Theresa May has said “now is not the time” for a second independence referendum. This is from the BBC’s Glenn Campbell.

The prime minister @theresa_may has said that "now is not the time" for another indyref but is no more definitive than that

— Glenn Campbell (@GlennBBC) March 16, 2017

Scottish Tories rule out second independence referendum

This is what Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, said at FMQs about the independence referendum. The Scottish Tories are now firmly opposing the idea. Davidson said:

A referendum cannot happen when the people of Scotland have not been given the opportunity to see how our new relationship with the European Union is working.

And it should not take place when there is no clear political or public consent for it to happen.

Our country does not want to go back to the divisions and uncertainty of the last few years.Another referendum campaign will not solve the challenges this country will face.

We don’t want it. We don’t need it.

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