Starmer and Sunak in Sky's leaders special - snap verdict
I’ve just heard a (normally wise) Sky presenter ask if this is going to change the election campaign. Of course it won’t (although that does not stop TV bosses hoping otherwise.) But what this might do is change the way these encounters are scheduled. This was a more sensible and revealing programme than the ITV leaders’ debate we had last week, partly because Beth Rigby was good, but mostly because Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak were subject to robust challenge, from the presenter (Rigby) and from the audience. Debating each other, they were also subject to challenge, but challenge that felt trite, misleading or feigned.
The audience was much more sceptical about Sunak (which is what you would expect, if it was representative of the nation as monitored by polling companies) and it would be surprising if any snap polling doesn’t favour the Labour leader. There was nothing particularly new in what Sunak had to say. But he sounded less tetchy and thin-skinned than in some of his campaign appearances, and he did not say anything that will cause his campaign fresh problems.
As explained earlier, Starmer was thrown onto the defensive right at the start as Rigby questioned him cleverly and consistently about Jeremy Corbyn. (See 8.21pm.) After that Starmer was fine. He did not really make big news either, but he was quite interesting when he talked about how, over time, he has become “much clearer in my own mind that the country must come first” (see 8.13pm), he did not seriously push back when Rigby helpfully interpreted what his answers about not ruling out tax rises meant (see 7.48pm), and he actually sounded as if he meant it when he talked about relishing the chance to take big decisions (see 7.56pm). Of the two, he seemed more prime ministerial.
Sky leaders special - verdict from commentariat on X
And here is more analysis of who did best from journalists and political commentators. Generally they think Keir Starmer had the happier evening.
From the FT’s Lucy Fisher
First time this campaign that Starmer has been properly quizzed on his past support for Corbyn; u-turns on his leadership pledges; and the various tax rises he isn't ruling out
What a breath of fresh air this format is... & Beth Rigby is absolutely on fire - forensic and…
First time this campaign that Starmer has been properly quizzed on his past support for Corbyn; u-turns on his leadership pledges; and the various tax rises he isn’t ruling out What a breath of fresh air this format is... & Beth Rigby is absolutely on fire - forensic and focussed
Far from easy evening for Sunak either, as he was challenged on broken promises, the breakdown of trust in his leadership after partygate, D-Day error & more... PM looked deflated as he faced a tough audience
From Lewis Goodall from the News Agents podcast
Points of jeopardy for both leaders. Sunak still seems defeated. Starmer was bruised but kept the ming vase intact. But there were reminders of what could be frailties to come for him. He (like Sunak) can be deeply rigid. That'll be a problem for him when times are less good.
Points of jeopardy for both leaders. Sunak still seems defeated. Starmer was bruised but kept the ming vase intact. But there were reminders of what could be frailties to come for him. He (like Sunak) can be deeply rigid. That’ll be a problem for him when times are less good.
From Kate McCann from Times Radio
So where are we at the end of that? Sunak came across as flat and defensive, Starmer was flat-footed at times but clearly more support in the room for him. Most revealing sense at the end of that was audience has priced in a Tory loss. They may not be thoroughly convinced by…
So where are we at the end of that? Sunak came across as flat and defensive, Starmer was flat-footed at times but clearly more support in the room for him. Most revealing sense at the end of that was audience has priced in a Tory loss. They may not be thoroughly convinced by Starmer but they’ve largely stopped listening to Sunak and it felt like he knew that too.
From Harry Cole from the Sun
LIVE BLOG:
No knock out blows for either leader, but plenty of punches landed by the crowd and the presenter.
Starmer did better than BBC outing, but Sunak desperately needs to perk up despite his rough few days.
Easily the TV event of the campaign, so far... But not the last…
Most uncomfortable part overall was Starmer on Corbyn, he really had no answer. For the PM, his continual expression of frustration with tax, migration and NHS doesn’t really work when you are the PM
Most uncomfortable part overall was Starmer on Corbyn, he really had no answer. For the PM, his continual expression of frustration with tax, migration and NHS doesn’t really work when you are the PM
Both did much better with audience Q+A
Overall I think it was a score draw for both, again this is not good for Sunak as he really needs to win these things to move public open The audience though were great, properly engaged and ballsy
From David Maddox from the Independent
Sunak is much better on detail than Starmer. He is keeping his calm against a hostile audience. His answers to the audience members actually engage with their concerns.
Sunak is much better on detail than Starmer. He is keeping his calm against a hostile audience. His answers to the audience members actually engage with their concerns
From Adam Bienkov from Byline Times
Rishi Sunak looked tonight like a man who was desperate to be literally anywhere else but fighting an election campaign pic.twitter.com/ih2ijaeiEx
What Labour, Tories, Lib Dems and SNP say about Sky's leaders special
This is what the main political parties are saying about the Sky leaders special.
From Labour
Keir Starmer showed in his answers tonight that he will always put country before party. That’s what has driven the changes he has made to Labour over the past few years.
Rishi Sunak showed tonight that he’s out of touch and unable to deliver. The Conservatives will leave mortgage holders £4,800 worse off.
From the Conservatives
Keir Starmer wasn’t honest when he ran to be Labour leader and he’s not being honest now.
He said he wouldn’t pay for private healthcare for his loved ones last week. This week he’s admitted he has it.
From the Liberal Democrats
Rishi Sunak blaming others for soaring NHS waiting lists under his watch shows just how out of touch he is.
The legacy of his government is one of crumbling hospitals, people waiting hours for an ambulance and patients being treated in corridors.
From the SNP
Tonight’s debate was another depressing watch for viewers in Scotland - without anything more than a passing mention of Scotland across the 90-minute broadcast.
Most notable was Sir Keir Starmer’s shameful refusal to lift 1 million children out of poverty by scrapping the two-child limit. That is quite simply unforgivable.
Why experts say tax burden would rise in next parliament under Tory plans, despite PM refusing to accept that
During his interview with Beth Rigby, Rishi Sunak refused to accept that the tax burden would definitely go up over the next parliament. He argued you could not say, without knowing how big the economy might be at that point. (See 8.40am.)
Rigby was asking about an analysis by Ed Conway, Sky’s economics editor. Here is the chart.
The chart of mine @rishisunak says he hasn’t seen. The tax burden WILL be higher at the end of the next parliament - even after his manifesto tax cuts come into force. pic.twitter.com/PiPjD1v9cI
Starmer won Sky News leaders special, beating Sunak by 64% to 36%, poll suggests
A snap poll by YouGov suggests that, by a margin of almost two to one, viewers thought Keir Starmer was better than Rishi Sunak. This is from Sky’s Sam Coates.
Starmer and Sunak in Sky's leaders special - snap verdict
I’ve just heard a (normally wise) Sky presenter ask if this is going to change the election campaign. Of course it won’t (although that does not stop TV bosses hoping otherwise.) But what this might do is change the way these encounters are scheduled. This was a more sensible and revealing programme than the ITV leaders’ debate we had last week, partly because Beth Rigby was good, but mostly because Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak were subject to robust challenge, from the presenter (Rigby) and from the audience. Debating each other, they were also subject to challenge, but challenge that felt trite, misleading or feigned.
The audience was much more sceptical about Sunak (which is what you would expect, if it was representative of the nation as monitored by polling companies) and it would be surprising if any snap polling doesn’t favour the Labour leader. There was nothing particularly new in what Sunak had to say. But he sounded less tetchy and thin-skinned than in some of his campaign appearances, and he did not say anything that will cause his campaign fresh problems.
As explained earlier, Starmer was thrown onto the defensive right at the start as Rigby questioned him cleverly and consistently about Jeremy Corbyn. (See 8.21pm.) After that Starmer was fine. He did not really make big news either, but he was quite interesting when he talked about how, over time, he has become “much clearer in my own mind that the country must come first” (see 8.13pm), he did not seriously push back when Rigby helpfully interpreted what his answers about not ruling out tax rises meant (see 7.48pm), and he actually sounded as if he meant it when he talked about relishing the chance to take big decisions (see 7.56pm). Of the two, he seemed more prime ministerial.
A young man asks the next question, saying various policies, like national service, imply Sunak does not have the interests of young people at heart.
Sunak says he has two young girls. He thinks the national service plan will make a difference. Parents are excited by it, he says.
He says the government will also curb investment in “rip-off degrees”, and fund more apprenticeships.
And there is help for young people to buy a home, he says.
These are bold ideas that will make a difference.
Q: What will happen if people say no. Will they get criminal records?
Of course not, says Sunak. He says he would set up a royal commission to recommend how this should happen. There would be “an appropriate mix of incentives and sanctions”, he says.
Q: But young people are the future. You are moving away from them.
Sunak says he does not view society as us versus them. Young people have grandparents. Government can introduce policies that help both, he says.
And that is the end of the core part of the programme. Sky is now broadcasting reaction.
The next questioner, Amy, says she is a former Tory party chair but is ashamed of the way he missed part of the D-day commemoration.
Sunak repeats his apology, and says he did not mean to cause offence. Under his plans, he would deliver a secure future.
Amy refers to the picture of the Queen on her own at Philip Philip’s funeral, when they were holding parties in No 10. She says the party has a lot to do to rebuild trust.
Sunak says the rules should have been followed. He deeply regrets what happened. Trust takes time to rebuild, he says. The manifesto sets out a direction for the future.
Q: Should people who want a Tory government vote Reform?
Sunak says a vote for Reform will let Keir Starmer back into No 10.
Someone shouts at Sunak, saying he has failed.
Starmer won’t match the triple lock plus, he claims.
This is from Kate McCann from Times Radio in the spin room at the event.
Something telling... Spin room was attentive right til the end of Starmer's audience Q section. Fair to say there's a lot more chatting/wandering/scrolling through Sunak's answers here.
Something telling... Spin room was attentive right til the end of Starmer’s audience Q section. Fair to say there’s a lot more chatting/wandering/scrolling through Sunak’s answers here.
The next question is from someone working in the NHS.
Q: Staff are burnt out. I have experienced being left eight hours on a stretcher in A&E. How will you restore the NHS?
Sunak says he is sorry to hear about the questioner’s experience. He comes from an NHs family, he says. His dad was a doctor and his mum was a pharmacist. He says the NHS does not train enough staff. Now it has a long-term workforce plan.
A woman in the audience intervenes. She says the NHS is short of staff. Creating new hubs won’t help, she says.
Sunak says the government is recruiting more members of staff too.
And he says he disagrees with the questioner. Doing things in hubs outside hospital can improve the service, he says.
Rishi Sunak speaking with Sky's political editor Beth Rigby. Photograph: Stefan Rousseau/AP
The first questioner, Ian, says mortgages have become less affordable since Liz Truss’s mini-budget. Why have you ruined things for young people, and will you do it again?
Sunak asks about Ian’s daughter, who is 19 and was thinking of buying a home.
He says there are two plans in the Tory manifesto that would help: abolishing stamp duty up to £425,000, and a new version of Help to Buy, letting people buy a home with a 5% mortgage.
Q: You were once popular. Can you tell us something that might make people like you again?
Sunak says people think he has a healthy diet. But he eats a lot of sugar – lots of haribos and Twixes. He is not sure if that will make people like him, but it is something about him, he says.
Q: People voted for Brexit to control immigration?
Yes, says Sunak.
Rigby quotes net migration figures – 1.9 million in the last three years, but 836,000 in the three years to Brexit.
Sunak says the numbers are too high. But he is starting to bring them down, he says. The government is on track to halve net migration in a year’s time, he says. He lists measures that have affected this.
Q: What will the legal cap on migration be?
Sunak does not answer that.
Rigby quotes Sunak’s predecessors all saying they would bring immigration down.
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