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Can the Republicans please do something other than try to sink the economy?

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  1. Gil S.

    Let's see....

    They're opposing the stimulus plan, claiming Obama is trying to hijack the country by getting the census right, trying to undermine Obama and claim he is off to a "bad start" (cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02…), opposing the crackdown on the Wall Street crooks as "market intervention" and "socialism".  They've looted the country for eight years now, can't they just know when enough is enough and go home with their booty?

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  3. Steve S.
    • 79 friends
    • 567 reviews

    If you care to check the family tree of each you'll see most are direct descendants to Hitler and Stalin

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  4. Pickle R.
    • 372 friends
    • 806 reviews

    they can go eff themselves!  also make sure you watch nancy pelosi's daughters documentary, from the right tonight on HBO

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  5. Robert G.
    • 233 friends
    • 120 reviews

    and they are doing it at home too! pass the damn budget please!

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  6. Joe Y.
    • 90 friends
    • 233 reviews

    I may be wrong, but does it matter what Republicans think?

    President = Dem
    House = Dem
    Senate = Dem

    I don't see the problem here...

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  7. Sarah H.
    • 7 friends
    • 67 reviews

    The GOP hates Americans.

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  8. Bill M.
    • 497 friends
    • 133 reviews

    Even though the stim bill went through, they just need to puff their chest a bit to make it seem like they are still runnin' shit.
    It is funny that they are talking shit...didn't the bill need their support?

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  9. c f.
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    that kool-aid most be delicious......i got an idea, try thinking for yourself for once

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  10. masa s.
    • 57 friends
    • 232 reviews

    joe - Have you followed anything about the stimulus package?  Democrats had to swing 3 Republicans over to avoid a filibuster.  (With Kennedy, it ended up being one extra.)

    And, the GOP does not hate America.  They just want to ruin it in a different way.

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  11. Bill M.
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    • 133 reviews

    While there are a few GOP senators that are fighting the bill, there are few that feel that Obama did not go far enough. They are pissed that some bank CEOs might benefit from the stim package and feed more inane bonus packages.

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  12. Bill M.
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    • 133 reviews

    masa "provided by the management for your protection" s. says:
    And, the GOP does not hate America.  They just want to ruin it in a different way.
    ______________
    true.....
    true

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  13. Joe Y.
    • 90 friends
    • 233 reviews

    masa "provided by the management for your protection" s. says:

    joe - Have you followed anything about the stimulus package?

    /////////////////////////////////////////////

    Yeah, I've been following it closely.  I was trying to make the point that the Dem's control everything now.  And the 3 Rep's that "swung" are considered moderates.  Obama shouldn't have any problem getting any of his agenda through.  
    It took 8 years to F up everything; it's gonna take more than 100 days to fix it...

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  14. Sarah H.
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    Can we send the GOP a bill for the damages?

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  15. c f.
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    so let me get this right.... you think that 400 million for std prevention will save the economy, and 30 million for a field mouse is going to create jobs....i'm no fan of republicans, but...........something smells.       nobody has even READ the bill.     and lets not forget the 2 billion for acorn

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  16. John b.
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    Gawd I love the Left, all talk all finger pointing, no action:

    Read the following story, from a left wing news source:

    (CNN) -- She's being hailed as the "face of the economic crisis," and now Henrietta Hughes has become something of a media star after reaching out to President Obama in an emotional plea for help.
    President Obama talks to Henrietta Hughes at a town hall rally in Fort Myers, Florida, on Tuesday.

    President Obama talks to Henrietta Hughes at a town hall rally in Fort Myers, Florida, on Tuesday.

    Her message: My son and I are homeless, and we need immediate help.

    "I have an urgent need, unemployment and homelessness, a very small vehicle for my family and I to live in," Hughes told Obama Tuesday at a town hall rally in Fort Myers, Florida, as he pushed for passage of his stimulus plan in the Senate. "The housing authority has two years waiting lists, and we need something more than the vehicle and the parks to go to. We need our own kitchen and our own bathroom. Please help."

    Chene Thompson -- the wife of state Rep. Nicholas Thompson, R-Fort Myers -- offered Hughes and her son a house in nearby La Belle rent-free, according to a spokeswoman, and she is interested in taking it.

    "Basically, I offered Ms. Hughes and her son the opportunity to stay in my home rent-free for as long as they need to," Thompson told WBBH-TV in Fort Myers. "I'm not a millionaire, I'm not rich, but this is what I can do for someone if they need it."

    Hughes will check out the house in the coming days, according to Thompson's office. In the meantime, she has set up shop in the district office where she gave media interviews.

    The Democrats did Nothing..but offer a kiss and sympathy. The Republican took action....

    *NOTE I am Not A republican, But also NOT a Democrat...you both suck!!

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  17. Paul M.
    • 60 friends
    • 14 reviews

    The time for blaming the Republicans is over.  California is in a crisis.  The Democrats control the legislature.  You are a high-ranking Democrat in the Legislature.  Below are the six items that make up close to 90% of California's spending (see budget summary linked below).  Half of the state's income comes from income taxes paid mostly by the state's most prodcutive workers who are already the highest taxed workers in the country.  These workers are mobile and over a period of time can move to other lower tax states.  Solve the problem.  

    1.  Health & Human Services                      28.2%
    2.  K-12 Ecucation                                         30.2%
    3.  Higher Education                                       9.7%
    4.  General Government                                 4.3%
    5.  Business, Transportation, Housing       8.9%
    6.  Prisons                                                         7.3%

    Budget summary.
    ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/Budge…

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  18. Paul M.
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    • 14 reviews

    As to compassion and charity . . . .

    Sixteen months ago, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism." The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives.

    If many conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, Brooks, a registered independent, is, as a reviewer of his book said, a social scientist who has been mugged by data. They include these findings:

    -- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

    -- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

    -- Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.

    -- Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

    -- In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

    -- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

    Brooks demonstrates a correlation between charitable behavior and "the values that lie beneath" liberal and conservative labels. Two influences on charitable behavior are religion and attitudes about the proper role of government.

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  19. John P.
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    c f. says:

    so let me get this right.... you think that 400 million for std prevention will save the economy, and 30 million for a field mouse is going to create jobs....i'm no fan of republicans, but...........something smells.       nobody has even READ the bill.     and lets not forget the 2 billion for acorn
    ----------------
    Thank-you c.f., and don't stop there.  7 BILLION for Cable Modem connections for the poor.  Payouts to the Poor, of 250.00 and more, tax free, as long as you are on assisted living, Welfare, or unemployed.  Also, if you are a working person, you will see a whole 13.00 sometime after JUNE in your paychecks, but that is good for one year.  If you are a tax-payer, you will get a 400.00 tax break next year, ONLY 800.00 for couples, but you loose the standard deductions of the couples now in-force.  God, this "Stimulus Package" is freaking beautiful!  Taxes are cut, but you will be charged more.....this is great!  And please don't write saying I am a staunch Republican, THIS IS WHAT THE STIMULUS PACKAGE SAYS!!!  I DID NOT WRITE IT!

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  20. Josh W.

    I love how the dems have their Patriot Act now.  Both bills passed with most congressmen not even reading it, in both cases if you dared question it you're either unamerican or hate the economy.

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  21. John P.
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    Joshua W. says:

    I love how the dems have their Patriot Act now.  Both bills passed with most congressmen not even reading it, in both cases if you dared question it you're either unamerican or hate the economy.
    -------------
    I hate Politics Joshua, BUT SOMEBODY SHOULD OF READ THIS THING.  TAX-PAYERS, and THE COMMON WORKERS ARE SCREWED TIMES 4!!!!

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  23. John b.
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    John "Dobie" P. says:

    Joshua W. says:

    I love how the dems have their Patriot Act now.  Both bills passed with most congressmen not even reading it, in both cases if you dared question it you're either unamerican or hate the economy.
    -------------
    I hate Politics Joshua, BUT SOMEBODY SHOULD OF READ THIS THING.  TAX-PAYERS, and THE COMMON WORKERS ARE SCREWED TIMES 4!!!!

    =====================================

    Since when have politicians cared about the Taxpayers? Republican or Democrat? It's all about getting theirs and convincing the public it's good for them.

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  24. John b.
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    Michael G. says:

    Subprime loans, great idea! Who brought Mr. Sub Prime to dinner?

    Bill Clinton.

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  25. John P.
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    I posted this the other day...read it and weep.  I also saw where Megan asked some very poignyent questions about OBAMA'S supposed healthcare....got news folks...it ain't happening.  I feel really bad for her.  

    yelp.com/topic/san-franc…

    Here is the weeping part.

    Aid to The Poor and Unemployed:
    40 Billion to provide extended unemployment benefits through Dec. 31st, and Increase them by 25.00 a week.
    20 Billion to Increased Food Stamp Program.
    3 Billion to More Welfare Programs
    WorkingMan/Woman....0

    Direct Cash Payments:
    14 Billion to give one time payments to to Social Security Recipients, Poor People on Supplemental Programs and Welfare, and Veterans on Disability, if they qualify with their disability, to be determined by Committee.
    Working Folks....0

    Infrastructure:
    46 Billion for transportation projects, to be selected.
    27 Billion Highway and Bridge Construction
    8 Billion for High Speed railways
    4.6 Army Corp of Engineers
    4 Billion Public Housing
    6.4 for Cleaner water
    7 Billion for Broadband Internet to Poor who cannot afford it.
    Working Man/Woman......0

    Health Care:
    21 Billion to Health care Premiums for Unemployed.
    WokingMan/Woman....0

    NEW TAX CREDITS!!!!!!!!!! YA FINALLY!!!!
    400.00 Per worker
    800.00 per couple...NOT UNTIL 2009 Tax Year, good for 2 years only
    Working People will see an increase of 13.00 per payday in late 2009, good through 2010. If you qualify.

    Alternate Tax Minimum:
    Would of been a reduction of 2300.00 per household, BUT, delayed and will be reviewed by Congress at a later date...maybe in the Fall.

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  26. Frageela F.
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    John "Sideways™" b. says:

    Michael G. says:

    Subprime loans, great idea! Who brought Mr. Sub Prime to dinner?

    Bill Clinton.
    --

    Who let these subprime loans go unchecked by regulators (not speaking of DPG) for eight years and got showered by the mort lobbyists..... the repubs did and so did the dems.

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  27. John P.
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    Sorry for the mispell...this is not all of it, there is more, and it is scary...

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  28. Frageela F.
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    so finger pointing between dems and repubs is nonsense.
    They both are gulity and have their hands dirty?

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  29. John b.
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    John "Dobie" P. says:

    20 Billion to Increased Food Stamp Program.

    This is a good idea and will actually stimulate the Economy. Can't hate on this one. it makes sense.

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  30. John P.
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    Frageela "brittle" F. says:

    so finger pointing between dems and repubs is nonsense.
    They both are gulity and have their hands dirty?
    ---------------
    I don't know who wrote the "Package", all I do know is if you are now between 21 and 59, in the next 2 years, YOU WILL BE PAYING FOR IT, and it will not end....

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  31. Mike B.
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    If you think EITHER Democrats or Republicans are going to solve your problems, you obviously haven't been paying attention.

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  32. Sarah H.
    • 29 friends
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    Let's play cut & paste! I'll add my favorite response from an interview of Bill Clinton from CNN:

    "Roberts: What do you think of the job that President Obama did on steering the stimulus plan through Congress, and does he in fact have the experience necessary to be a good president, reach across party lines and craft a bipartisan bill?

    Clinton: Well first of all, he has reached across, and it takes two to tango. I find it amazing that the Republicans who doubled the debt of the country in eight years and produced no new jobs doing it, gave us an economic record that was totally bereft of any productive result are now criticizing him for spending money. You know, I'm a fiscal conservative, I balanced the budget, I ran surpluses. If I were in his position today, I would be doing what he's doing. Why? Because the problem with the economy is the housing decline led to the general decline in values. Assets are going down. This stimulus is our bridge over troubled waters till the bank reforms kick in. He did the right thing, he did everything he could to get Republican support. He took some of their tax-cutting ideas."

    Guess what - It took years to tank this economy and Jesus himself can't cure what ails us in a few weeks. Deal w/ it.

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  33. John P.
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    John "Dobie" P. says:

    20 Billion to Increased Food Stamp Program.

    This is a good idea and will actually stimulate the Economy. Can't hate on this one. it makes sense.
    --------------
    You bet it does!  Cause the Tax-Payer is going to have to work HARDER to pay for someones free food....not that I want anybody to go hungry, but DAMN!

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  35. John b.
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    John "Dobie" P. says:

    John "Dobie" P. says:

    20 Billion to Increased Food Stamp Program.

    This is a good idea and will actually stimulate the Economy. Can't hate on this one. it makes sense.
    --------------
    You bet it does!  Cause the Tax-Payer is going to have to work HARDER to pay for someones free food....not that I want anybody to go hungry, but DAMN!
    =========================================
    From the farmer to the Producer, to the distributor, to the warehouse, to the trucker, to the store,  to the clerk,  to the bagger...each step a job. John, It makes sense.

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  36. John P.
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    John "Sideways™" b. says

    From the farmer to the Producer, to the distributor, to the warehouse, to the trucker, to the store,  to the clerk,  to the bagger...each step a job. John, It makes sense.
    ----------
    I'm not saying it doesn't....I am just asking...who is paying the tab?  By the way, you have a great first name!  :)

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  37. Steve N.
    • 181 friends
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    If Obama's administration succeeds it will be an ever bigger disaster to the republican party than bush's legacy.

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  38. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    The more you focus on the false Left vs Right paradigm, the more you play into their hands.

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  39. John P.
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    CK "nested homunculus" S. says:

    The more you focus on the false Left vs Right paradigm, the more you play into their hands.
    -----------
    There wasn't anything "false" in that Package....I wouldn't be so pissed if it was just a Jerk-Off party.

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  40. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    John, I wrote about the phony notion that there's any choice involved.

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  41. John b.
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    John "Sideways™" b. says

    From the farmer to the Producer, to the distributor, to the warehouse, to the trucker, to the store,  to the clerk,  to the bagger...each step a job. John, It makes sense.
    ----------
    I'm not saying it doesn't....I am just asking...who is paying the tab?  By the way, you have a great first name!  :)

    ===
    I know and I spell it right too.

    Who pays?..if it stimulates the economy well enough, it eventually pays for itself by creating more taxpaying jobs. Strange concept huh?

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  42. John P.
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    CK "nested homunculus" S. says:

    John, I wrote about the phony notion that there's any choice involved.
    -----------
    Sorry CK....I am just honestly pissy over that Package...sorry, I meant no harm...

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  43. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    John "Dobie" P. says:

    CK "nested homunculus" S. says:

    John, I wrote about the phony notion that there's any choice involved.
    -----------
    Sorry CK....I am just honestly pissy over that Package...sorry, I meant no harm...
    ------------
    The package is an honest reflection of how powerless we have allowed ourselves to become.
    youtube.com/watch?v=zwrw…

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  44. Poe T.
    • 338 friends
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    c f. says:

    so let me get this right.... you think that 400 million for std prevention will save the economy, and 30 million for a field mouse is going to create jobs....i'm no fan of republicans, but...........something smells.       nobody has even READ the bill.     and lets not forget the 2 billion for acorn
    --------
    The bank bailout bill was stuffed with about $100 billion worth of various tax cuts and spending for pet projects of Republican lawmakers.  Everybody got their sweetheart deals including Republicans. I'm not really sure how Don Young Republican Senator of Alaska would like to explain the money he got to help Alaskan fisherman is considered a bank bailout but I am sure if questioned he will just say we hate America for questioning this money we handed over to him.

    Congressmen from Virginia and S. Carolina  got $128 million in tax breaks for manufactures of car racing tracks since they are in NASCAR states but I have a feeling no Republican NASCAR fan in those states nor the company that got the tax break are whining that the bank bail out bill should not have had these sweetheart deals stuffed into it.

    Meanwhile, the money we handed over to the banks went to bonuses and parties for CEOs and top brass. Where is the true, honest, heartfelt Republican outrage over that? I've seen some pretend outrage but not much else.

    Moral of the story; both sides got money in some form for their own agendas. To think that it's only the Democrats that got sweetheart deals is just plain native and sad.

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  45. Poe T.
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    Duh, I meant naive not native, duh.

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  46. Gil S.

    Just what I thought.  Republicans here, like nationwide, are getting shriller and shriller in their obstructinist nonsense.  They don't seem to realize they've lost the election or that their abysmal, discredited policies are what got us here.  They had their chance, they mismanaged it, they chose greed over responsibility, and they're out.  The public understood the impertinent divisive nonsense, the stuff about gays and AIDS, socialism, supposed vote fraud and terrorists, to be the smokescreen it was yet they can't stop smoking it.

    They had their turn to drive.  They crashed the car, lost their license, and now they're sitting drunk in the back of the towtruck, still trying to mash on the accelerator pedal.

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  47. M Z.
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    Bill wrote: "It is funny that they are talking shit...didn't the bill need their support?"
    _____________________

    Not really. They only had to buy off three Republicans.

    This "stimulus bill" looks to be a disaster. It was sold to us as a "capital works" bill, when that is only where 15% of it went. This was a dump truck full of social spending.

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  48. M Z.
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    For all of the whining in Northern CA over the cost of TWO wars over 8 years ... this pork bill matched that... in ONE month!!! A Trillion smackaroos. And hasn't Obama already spoken of another stimulus bill? *shakes head*

    Since when does gov't create jobs? It don't.

    We have a real estate problem, and a credit problem... so the way to solve too much spending and borrowing... is to spend and borrow more? Makes no sense.

    And where was the "responsibility" The Messiah spoke of? Not one Congressman read this bill, before they voted for it.

    Socialism, here we come.

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  49. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    It's a total lie, rushed through congress without any 'representative' even reading it. The same way the banker bill was forced through (and the money was redirected and siphoned off without accountability), and the wars in Iraq & Iran. It's at times like these that the one party state is most apparent.

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  50. M Z.
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    Poe and Gil, you're correct... Bush drove us into the ditch governing as a Big Spending Liberal.

    Long live Ross Perot.

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  51. Joe J.
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    take your pick:

    time.com/time/specials/p…

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  52. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    Time proves it's servility to the monolithic state for not mentioning anyone from the SEC or The Fed in the article.

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  53. Joe J.
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    they're on the list, CK.  Alan Greenspan and the SEC chairman are both there.

    there's plenty of blame to go around.

    this b.s. of blaming parties is so old and cliche.  i thought we were all a bit smarter than that.

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  54. Joe J.
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    time.com/time/specials/p…

    i must have loaded the link in the middle of the article.  the above is the complete list.

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  55. Steve N.
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    Mark "More Funkalicious Reviews in the 'Hopper'" A. says:
    'Long live Ross Perot."

    Yes, he caused the election to go to Bill Clinton the best President of any of our lifetimes.

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  56. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    rhondita "most likely to get arrested" j. says:

    time.com/ti...

    i must have loaded the link in the middle of the article.  the above is the complete list.
    -----------
    Thanks. When I followed the first link it started with Clinton.

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  57. Joe J.
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    yeah - that link leaves out quite a few.  the article is pretty good - they even point out that the american consumer is also to blame.

    imagine that.

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  58. Adam X.
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    Maybe we should just sell Puerto Rico, Palau or Guam to the highest bidder. That would fix our budget woes.

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  59. Steve N.
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    We should be taxing churches instead of giving them a free ride.

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  60. Bill M.
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    Mark "More Funkalicious Reviews in the 'Hopper'" A. says:
    Bill wrote: "It is funny that they are talking shit...didn't the bill need their support?"
    _____________________
    Not really. They only had to buy off three Republicans.
    This "stimulus bill" looks to be a disaster. It was sold to us as a "capital works" bill, when that is only where 15% of it went. This was a dump truck full of social spending.
    ______________________
    So you say but I think "your folks" in Wash knew exactly what they were getting into. You sound like you have no faith in your GOP politicians.

    Bil C's fault, Dubya's fault. I'm done pointing fingers. Blah Blah...time to fix this shit and I'm glad someone has the ball started. It may not look pretty but neither was the task.

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  61. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    Steven "1274" N. says:

    We should be taxing churches instead of giving them a free ride.
    --------
    I agree. It would put a big dent in the child molestation market as well.

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  62. John P.
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    Poe "lost my kitty cat" ..

    The bank bailout bill was stuffed with about $100 billion worth of various tax cuts and spending for pet projects of Republican lawmakers. Everybody got their sweetheart deals including Republicans. I'm not really sure how Don Young Republican Senator of Alaska would like to explain the money he got to help Alaskan fisherman is considered a bank bailout but I am sure if questioned he will just say we hate America for questioning this money we handed over to him
    ----------------
    Hello Poe it is very nice to hear from you. Just so you are aware, and please check the financial, no Banks that are Alaskan made, owned or run are in any Danger. However, Wells Fargo is up here, and they are in deep trouble, and yes, we did yell quite loudly about Wells Fargo, and other National Banks receiving any funding that was due to Alaska (if any) from this "Package". As I read the package Poe, the monies were NOT including the poverty level here in Alaska, as this state is considered "Subsistence Living", which falls way short of the "Poverty Level" that 7 billion Dollars is going to for Cable Internet. Otherwords, not urban enough. No monies have been given or promised to our hardest hit communities that are lacking the very basics in decent living, but Welfare recipients, according to this Package will get 250.00 per person and up. In as far as the Don Young comment, #1) I did not vote for him, nor do I care for him, BUT he did vote against this package, and for that I am grateful. Alaskan Fisherman, in accordance with the State Regs are only eligible for State Bailout, and only after those who were affected by the Exxon Valdez will be granted the funds, only after the Exxon Valdez is settled. So they are screwed twice. Did Don Young get money? Not yet. What will he do with it? We will see. Has any Native Poverty stricken Alaskan been given the promise of monies in this bailout? No. Is it written in the package...No. Will we see any...No. But I do suppose the National Companies will be up here sucking up what they can.
    Thanks for stiopping by Poe.

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  63. CK S.
    • CK S.
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    • 0 friends
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    Graham & Clinton, Bush, Greenspan, and especially Cox, who was handed the blueprints to Madoff's Ponzie scheme by Markopoulos  8 YEARS AGO!  The SEC was either too busy with their own insider trading or directly invested in Madoff's scam to prosecute. But here's the thing: Wealth never simply disappears, so which entities have made the most profit off our losses?

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  64. Andrew F.
    • 468 friends
    • 186 reviews

    yeah - who needs that check n' balance's crap anyway?

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  65. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    CK "nested homunculus" S. says:

    Graham & Clinton, Bush, Greenspan, and especially Cox, who was handed the blueprints to Madoff's Ponzie scheme by Markopoulos  8 YEARS AGO!  The SEC was either too busy with their own insider trading or directly invested in Madoff's scam to prosecute. But here's the thing: Wealth never simply disappears, so which entities have made the most profit off our losses?
    -----
    They were all crooks CK...I hate crooks and bad guys....

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  66. Joe Y.
    • 90 friends
    • 233 reviews

    Sorry I'm so dumb.

    Are people blaming Republicans for holding up the stimulus or are they suggesting that that the package isn't a good one and should be held up??

    Can someone give a good explanation...

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  67. Joe J.
    • 103 friends
    • 0 reviews

    Interesting point, CK .. I'd like to see a financial loss/gain analysis for each member of the house/senate during the housing boom.

    follow the money.

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  68. Joe Y.
    • 90 friends
    • 233 reviews

    Newsweek magazine has a new issue on the shelves:

    "Welcome to the new Socialist America"

    Enough said...

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  69. Alex H.
    • 211 friends
    • 77 reviews

    This is Capitalism ver. 2.0

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  70. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    joe "I don't need a funny nickname" y. says:

    Sorry I'm so dumb.

    Are people blaming Republicans for holding up the stimulus or are they suggesting that that the package isn't a good one and should be held up??

    Can someone give a good explanation...
    --------------
    Joe, it is a fricking Nightmare, with no way out, and the politicians want to do more. This reminds me of something way back in my Law Enforcement Days.....
    I was working the Arraignment Court as a Marshal, with Alfred A. Delucchi as Judge. (Remember him from the Scott Peterson Trial? Good man, he was the best) Anyway we were arraigning the "Bad Guys, when in stepped this thin well dressed Nigerian Man from the holding cell area. I heard Al say his name, and I gave him a copy of the charging documents, he was being charged with what was 476 (a) Felony, Writing Fictitious Documents for over 38,000.00 (in those days that was alot of money), anyway the man started to argue with Judge Delucchi about how he was not guilty of anything, and this couldn't be right. Delucchi said it was right and he could be charged, and the gentleman said, no, this can't be right....I still have checks left....follow my drift?   They keep writing checks......

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  71. CK S.
    • CK S.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    rhondita "most likely to get arrested" j. says:

    Interesting point, CK .. I'd like to see a financial loss/gain analysis for each member of the house/senate during the housing boom.

    follow the money.
    -----------------------
    If you investigate very thoroughly, you'll probably find Ken Lay sipping an amniotic fluid cocktail out of JonBenet Ramsey's skull somewhere in the Cook Islands.

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  72. Gil S.

    Convenient how those who caused the mess say it isn't time to lay blame, then try their darnedest to sabotage the solution, and keep lining their pockets.  Or at least stay out of jail.

    And what the hell is John talking about with Wells Fargo and getting money that's supposed to be for Alaska?  Wells is the most solid of all the major banks in the country right now.  The least problem loans and the most stable.

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  73. Ayse M.
    • 1 friend
    • 0 reviews

    Caused the mess. Gil you don't know anything except rapid partisianship.

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  75. Steve S.
    • 79 friends
    • 567 reviews

    I like we can all agree that one man probably can't fix this mess after one totally f*cked an entire planet. If there is a hell I know who should be it's leader.

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  76. Steve N.
    • 181 friends
    • 149 reviews

    Anyone want to take odds how long the Ayse M. troll account will last? I'm guessing the over/under will be 24hrs and I'm betting on the under. Any takers?

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  77. This Yelper's account has been closed.
  78. Poe T.
    • 338 friends
    • 3 reviews

    Gil "whoo hoo" S. says:

    And what the hell is John talking about with Wells Fargo and getting money that's supposed to be for Alaska?  
    -------
    I have no clue what that whole thing was about in reply to my post. Maybe john was replying to some other post and not mine? Cause if he was then....wait, what? What does WF have to do with my post about sweetheart deals.

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  79. Steve N.
    • 181 friends
    • 149 reviews

    Note to Ayse- Ginger, is that you?

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  80. Rocky S.
    • 2 friends
    • 7 reviews

    Do you know what the stimulus package effectively provides for Americans directly?

    $400/year for two years. I spent that today on new brakes and rotors for my car.

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  81. Uncle Fishbits Aeneas X.
    • 441 friends
    • 1715 reviews

    Damn... I thought this was about pirate treasure.

    Buh buh buh BOOTY!

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  82. This Yelper's account has been closed.
  83. Jack H.
    • 1392 friends
    • 213 reviews

    Can the government please do something else other than extract taxes from us year after year via the threat of physical force and imprisonment?

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  84. This Yelper's account has been closed.
  85. Jack H.
    • 1392 friends
    • 213 reviews

    No debtors prison -- unless the entity you didn't pay = IRS/government.

    One working definition that fits most all forms of government:  An entity that extracts taxes from people through the threat of imprisonment.

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  86. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Gil "whoo hoo" S.

    And what the hell is John talking about with Wells Fargo and getting money that's supposed to be for Alaska?  Wells is the most solid of all the major banks in the country right now.  The least problem loans and the most stable.
    ------------
    Better check again Gil.  They have bottomed out, and they are pleading for Alaskan Funds.

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  87. This Yelper's account has been closed.
  88. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    ago sean m. says        16 minutes

    Get ready for socialist taxes without receiving the socialist benefits.
    ------------
    Almost right Sean...if you work, you are screwed, if you pay taxes you are doubly screwed, BUT...if you are poor, don't work, and never paid taxes....you will reap the benfits for your hard times.  Read the Package...it is very clear.

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  89. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    well, luckily the stimulus plan will pass and then all of our economic woes will be over!

    and luckily barney frank and chris dodd will still be overseeing the banking industry. and they did such a great job of it in the recent past.

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  90. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    SImply put...if democrats think taxing and spending (on every nit wit imaginable) is a good idea, then why don't they tax themselves at a HIGHER rate. Let the people who genuinely work (by that I mean a true 8+ hours skip the effing '10minute break and ridiculous benefits) pay at a lower rate. The unions can pay higher taxes while they're at it as well. All government employees should pay a higher tax rate too. They work less hours, take more time off, have more 3 day weekends than should be legal. Exception are for troops in battle zones (shouldn't be difficult to tell which ones are in such zones).

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  91. Dean S.
    • 23 friends
    • 0 reviews

    Pelosi had a plane to catch to Italy and the new Messiah was so concerned that the world was coming to a financial end, he waited until today to sign the bill in Colorado. Anyone that thinks Peloisi, Reid and Barney Fife Elmer Fudd Frank will save us is delusional.  Dems, GOP they are all fucktards and everyone knows it, make it easier and blame one or the other. .   Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld have just been reborn as Pelosi, Reid and Barney Frank, don't let the label fool you folks they are all made in China, pun intended.  Oh and Steve your Hitler and Stalin comment, you almost hit the mark comrade, just the wrong party.  Hammer and sickle cells for all.

    Of course this is all Sarah Palin's fault just ask the blowhards on the View. Can't we all just shut up and go back to our text messages, Zoloft and American Idol rewind? Come one people, priorities.

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  92. G L.
    • G L.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 64 friends
    • 89 reviews

    Has any GOP congressman or senator come forward with a plan to deal with this economic disaster...besides more tax cuts?  I'm talking a real plan, not some recitation of ideology

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  93. John b.
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    G "(keeping on the D)" L. says:

    Has any GOP congressman or senator come forward with a plan to deal with this economic disaster...besides more tax cuts?  I'm talking a real plan, not some recitation of ideology

    NO..and neither has A democrat either...

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  94. Josh W.

    Ron Paul

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  95. G L.
    • G L.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 64 friends
    • 89 reviews

    2 minutes ago John "Sideways™" b. says:

    G "(keeping on the D)" L. says:

    Has any GOP congressman or senator come forward with a plan to deal with this economic disaster...besides more tax cuts?  I'm talking a real plan, not some recitation of ideology

    NO..and neither has A democrat either...
    =======================
    you may not like it but the Dems have presented a plan.  

    And my question was not intended to be facetious, I want to know if there is a general plan that the GOP thought would be better.

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  96. CK S.
    • CK S.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    Joshua W. says:

    Ron Paul
    -------------
    Pretty much every year Paul presents the best economic & monetary policy plans but the one party wearing 2 masks simply ignore these plans.

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  97. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    G "(keeping on the D)" L.

    you may not like it but the Dems have presented a plan.
    -------------------------
    Yes, and I have read it, and how wonderful it is now that it is signed. Are you on Welfare, you broke? You Never got a tax refund, because you never made enough to file? Are you on assisted living programs? Well you get money to stimulate the economy. Workers of the United States, WORK HARDER, somebody has to pay for this idea....oh, and by the way, I will give you a tax credit NEXT YEAR, but I have to reduce your standard deduction to do this. You will pay more, but don't worry, those who got the "Stimulus" money will spend it, so they can get more, and you work more, and pay more, and BINGO economy stimulated...read the package people, it is going to hurt BAD!

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  98. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    Why bother arguing?

    Not all Republicans are bad, but the obstructionist ones still think the New Deal was a bad idea.

    They also believe in supply-side economics, not demand-side.

    Therefore, these same people will always argue that the way to fix the economy is tax cuts even though we did two huge ones during Bush and we've ended up in this utter mess with a huge deficit (even though it was a Dem president that balanced the budget).

    Like Limbaugh, these Repubs in particular want Obama to fail. They are pretty much playing scorched earth right now. They don't want to fix America. They would rather see Obama fail and try to take back some seats in Congress like Gingrich did after Clinton was elected.

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  99. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    If Bush and the Republican-led Congress of 2000-2006 even had a modicum of fiscal responsibility (eg. balanced budgets), our national deficit wouldn't be as bad as it is now and we could spend more to stimulate our economy without bringing it to historic levels.

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  100. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete "van she" C.

    Like Limbaugh, these Repubs in particular want Obama to fail. They are pretty much playing scorched earth right now. They don't want to fix America. They would rather see Obama fail and try to take back some seats in Congress like Gingrich did after Clinton was elected
    ------------
    Are you saying Pete that this "Package" is the Stimulus needed, and Republicans are torpedoing it?  Have you read the thing.  The more I read, the more pissed I get..

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  101. John b.
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    G "(keeping on the D)" L. says:

    2 minutes ago John "Sideways™" b. says:

    G "(keeping on the D)" L. says:

    Has any GOP congressman or senator come forward with a plan to deal with this economic disaster...besides more tax cuts?  I'm talking a real plan, not some recitation of ideology

    NO..and neither has A democrat either...
    =======================
    you may not like it but the Dems have presented a plan.  

    And my question was not intended to be facetious, I want to know if there is a general plan that the GOP thought would be better.--

    ===
    I have no Idea..neither does any of them..Yes the Dems did present a plan..for the most part it sucks...as for the GOP they had a plan too..it sucked..

    The best part of the Dems plan is the Food Stamp allocation..that will actually stimulate the economy ( look up in thread as i already pointed this out).

    You want a REAL Plan? ..you won't like it..it's too painful for you to accept.

    Let the Banks FAIL...DON'T bailout the Homeowners that got into mortgages they couldn't afford...cut off ALL Foriegn Aid...Shift to a flat National Sales Tax and get rid of ALL other Taxes ( yes this includes Corporate taxes)....Eliminate the Drug Laws and get rid of the DEA ( this will reduce the Judicial branch by 75%, plus reduce the Prison Population by 55% and reduce police forces by 65%). Expand medicare to EVERYONE ( this will reduce expensive visits to emergency rooms and improve the heath care of all citizens). It won't be cheap. It will be painful..It would work....it won't happen.

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  1. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete "van she

    Benefit from $1 of infrastructure spending: $1.59.
    --------------------
    Yes Pete, but it needs to be paid back with INTEREST, multiply that with the final amount of the Package.....plus interest...

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  2. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    james-
    oops. here's a better link. click on the graph:
    newsneconomics.com/2008/…

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  3. CK S.
    • CK S.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    Karsten "Product does not light up or fly through space" P. says:

    I want to see how many of you fiscal conservatives keep spouting this crap on Yelp after you get called up to HR and given a box to clean the trash out of your desk with.
    ----------------------
    HR? What, are you some cubicle farmer? Some sheep in a pen? More's the pity.

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  4. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete

    "The recovery package has tax breaks for families that send a child to college, purchase a new car, buy a first home or make the ones they own more energy efficient.

    Millions of workers can expect to see about $13 extra in their weekly paychecks, starting around June, from a new $400 tax credit to be doled out through the rest of the year. Couples would get up to $800. In 2010, the credit would be about $7.70 a week, if it is spread over the entire year.
    -----------
    Oh wow Pete, I am so wrong 13.00 every payday, to CUT to 7.70 in 2010...damn I had better start making plans with this windfall.  I know what it says Pete.  You are blinded by the lights Pete.  America is screwed...

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  5. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    bloomberg.com/apps/news?…

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  6. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    John-
    Who do you think will be fixing roads and bridges across America? Who's going to be weatherizing homes and providing social services to people?

    Robots?
    The NON -working people?

    Your arguments are too sensationalist just like Limbaugh's. It's really hard to take that kind of argument seriously.

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  7. Gil S.

    Suge, I hear you about Barney Frank.  Yes, there were plenty of Democrats on the bandwagon and if they had been in power the last 8 years maybe they would have done it too.  And there were a few responsible Republicans through the mess, even if most had to tow the party line.  Corruption knows no ideology, it just finds most Republicans a little cheaper to buy.  What is sad is that core conservative economic values are a lot closer to reality than all the liberal mumbo jumbo, so when the party that's supposed to be carrying that banner squanders its chance by looting the treasury in favor of big businesses, it sadly discredits what should be a convincing economic argument.  We need lower taxes on businesses, we need incentives, we need freedom from pointless regulation and big bureaucracy.  For now we need rescue.  What we don't need is more Enron, and Citibank, and hedge funds.  But the premise of my thread initially was about the obstructionism of the party out of power, and how sorry a spectacle it is that people have become so entrenched in their failed ideologies that they hurt the country's future in spite over it.  America needs to come together for a lot of reasons.  The unity would have been nice.

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  8. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    yes, gil, the unity would be nice. but it's  not going to happen until you get rid of a majority of the trash - on both sides. and it's infuriating as a taxpayer to watch barney frank and chris dodd get on their soapbox now without anyone questioning why they weren't doing their job and overseeing the industry..

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  9. Karsten P.
    • 259 friends
    • 329 reviews

    ago CK "nested homunculus" S. says:

    Karsten "Product does not light up or fly through space" P. says:

    I want to see how many of you fiscal conservatives keep spouting this crap on Yelp after you get called up to HR and given a box to clean the trash out of your desk with.
    ----------------------
    HR? What, are you some cubicle farmer? Some sheep in a pen? More's the pity.
    ----------------------

    Not a chicken farmer. Just a chicken. Sad. But I get paid next friday, and I count my blessings. So I'm crying al the way to the bank.

    The farmers typically are the ones voting for tax breaks.

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  10. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    John-
    Who do you think will be fixing roads and bridges across America? Who's going to be weatherizing homes and providing social services to people?
    ----------
    I'll gaurantee you right here, right now.  No one.  Maybe around 2011-2012 something may start.

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  11. Karsten P.
    • 259 friends
    • 329 reviews

    John "Dobie" P. says:
    -----------
    Oh wow Pete, I am so wrong 13.00 every payday, to CUT to 7.70 in 2010...damn I had better start making plans with this windfall.  I know what it says Pete.  You are blinded by the lights Pete.  America is screwed...
    --------------

    John, did you actually SERVE in the military?

    If you did, I would have thought the lesson about how sometimes you have to eat a shit sandwich would have stuck.

    I will LIVE if I get a measly tax cut this year, or next. I'll be all right if they raise my taxes. As long as I feel there i some prospect of our getting out of this on the other end.

    This is bad. I do not think tax cuts will fix this. I think stimulus programs might fix it. But you have to understand that from another point of view, carping about a small tax cut in the middle of the world's worst economic downturn in decades smacks of bitching about the shitty wine list on an ocean liner when the ship is taking on water.

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  12. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    John, did you actually SERVE in the military?

    If you did, I would have thought the lesson about how sometimes you have to eat a shit sandwich would have stuck.
    ---------------
    Yes Karsten I did serve.  I was drafted.  No choice,  Period.  I too will live.  All I am saying is this Package Sucks, it will suck, it will continue to suck.   Stimulus Programs MIGHT fix this probllem, but not this crap that just passed.

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  13. Karsten P.
    • 259 friends
    • 329 reviews

    Okay John, if that is what you intended above, then that is more reasonable.

    I'll back away a step: there is some crap in the bill. But I also think there is some god stuff, and we need to act fast, if the lessons of the GD and the Lost Decade (Japan) are anything to base our actions on.

    I do not back down from my statement that tax breaks will help people right now, however.

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  14. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    Tell us then, John, what would fix our current situation?

    More tax cuts?

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  15. John b.
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    I HAVE A TAX PLAN THAT WILL MAKE THE liberal SOCIALIST DEMS JUMP FOR JOY:

    For anyone making less then 200,000 per year,  NO TAX

    For anyone making less than 100,000.. a 10,000 per year tax credit

    For anyone making less then 50,000 per year..a 20,000 per year tax credit

    for anyone making less then 25,000 per year...a 30,000 per year tax credit

    for any one making less then 10,000 per year..unlimited food stamps and a 50,000 per year tax credit

    For anyone without a job. unlimited food stamps and a 60,000 per year tax credit.

    For ALL persons making over 200,000 per year  a tax rate of 95%..plus a 5% additional tax if they register republican

    for ALL Corporations a 100% tax rate on all revenues...

    what do you think!!!!

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  16. G L.
    • G L.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 64 friends
    • 89 reviews

    that's a really good plan John...(see two can be sarcastic)

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  17. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    Hmm. I was talking to John P but since you responded...

    Instead of giving a facetious response, why don't you give me a serious one? It seems like this whole thread has been right-wing extremists bitching about what's wrong with the bill.

    So enlighten us: How do we fix this deepening recession? Can you do better or is your life's mission to just complain?

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  18. John b.
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    Hmm. I was talking to John P but since you responded...

    Instead of giving a facetious response, why don't you give me a serious one? It seems like this whole thread has been right-wing extremists bitching about what's wrong with the bill.

    So enlighten us: How do we fix this deepening recession? Can you do better or is your life's mission to just complain?
    ====
    Hey clueless..look up and read..I did already about fifty posts ago..

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  19. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    Tell us then, John, what would fix our current situation?

    More tax cuts?
    -----------
    Pete, I can be totally honest.  I don't know.  But instead of giving the money to business like they are, why not give everyone 30,000.00  That is about the same as the package total.  That will jump start the economy.

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  20. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Its been fun...I have to go back to work, (no pun, I really do), thanks for letting me be the asshole this time!  :)  It was great!

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  21. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    Sorry, John b. I was talking to John P until you barged in.

    I don't keep track of every idiotic thing all you assholes say on this board. You can go on bitching now about how you're getting raped by this stimulus bill. In fact, I'm glad to hear it. Squeal like a pig!

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  22. Karsten P.
    • 259 friends
    • 329 reviews

    John "Sideways™" b. says:

    I HAVE A TAX PLAN THAT WILL MAKE THE liberal SOCIALIST DEMS JUMP FOR JOY:
    ----------

    I'm glad you've learned how the caps lock key works, but you really should stick to MySpace until you're old enough to vote, or grow a beard.

    Has your voice even broken yet?

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  23. Howard J.
    • 48 friends
    • 90 reviews

    is anyone going to protest about President Obama sending troops to Afghanistan? like they did for Iraqi , it will be interesting to see.

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  24. Poe T.
    • 338 friends
    • 3 reviews

    Unless you are morally offended by PBS, you may find this show a good watch.
    Tonight at 10pm on KQED.
    Inside the Meltdown.
    pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front…

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  25. Poe T.
    • 338 friends
    • 3 reviews

    Howard "prison cook" J. says:

    is anyone going to protest about President Obama sending troops to Afghanistan? like they did for Iraqi , it will be interesting to see.
    ---------
    Do you know why Iraq was protested?

    Iraq was the WRONG country to invade. We took energy away from Afghanistan where the actual fight was SUPPOSED to be, threw it in the trash and went after the wrong country.

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  26. G L.
    • G L.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 64 friends
    • 89 reviews

    John"Dobie" P is no asshole, he's actually a really great guy (at least from what I can tell from Yelp talk), John C has been a bit of an ass on this thread but these guys hate BIG government and this bill for right or for wrong rubs against their grain.

    I'd love to be a libertarian but I just can't believe that people are smart enough to live by their doctrine.

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  27. This Yelper's account has been closed.
  28. Ralph C.
    • 61 friends
    • 0 reviews

    the puppet on the string is going to be undone by his own party

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  29. Karsten P.
    • 259 friends
    • 329 reviews

    I get the distinct impression that this puppet is calling a lot of the shots - unlike the Republican puppet who preceded him.

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  30. Gil S.

    A slight correction... bush is a chimp, not a puppet

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  31. Connor H.
    • 183 friends
    • 63 reviews

    wow Gil.....i'm really impressed.  You have proven yourself to be completely and utterly naive at best and a total idiot at worst.  Good work!

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  32. John b.
    • 0 friends
    • 0 reviews

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    Sorry, John b. I was talking to John P until you barged in.

    I don't keep track of every idiotic thing all you assholes say on this board. You can go on bitching now about how you're getting raped by this stimulus bill. In fact, I'm glad to hear it. Squeal like a pig!

    -----
    glad your shit smells like roses, you can keep your head up your ass.

    @Karsten..dude I'm too old for my space (twice as old as you at least)...as for the Beard, can't,  only have to shave twice a week as it is.. ( they should quadruple the tax on razor blades)

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  33. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    OMG there are people that really do have BDS.

    LOLOLO.  Losers.

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  34. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    the homeowner bailout is a huge mistake. it's keeping home prices artificially inflated. and it rewards bad behavior.

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  35. Gil S.

    Connor says: "wow Gil.....i'm really impressed.  You have proven yourself to be completely and utterly naive at best and a total idiot at worst.  Good work!"

    You mean Bush isn't a chimp?

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  36. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    ^commrade Gil^

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  37. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Suge K. says:

    the homeowner bailout is a huge mistake. it's keeping home prices artificially inflated. and it rewards bad behavior.
    -----------
    BINGO  Plus it covers asses for bad ideas...

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  38. Gil S.

    Craig, you're going to have to come up with something a lot more racist than that.  Your listless insults are a disgrace to trolls everywhere.

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  39. Gil S.

    As far as bad behavior, per the CEO of Wells Fargo, the four leading causes of foreclosures are death in the family, illness, job loss, and divorce.  Nothing like taking the family house away to teach people not to do that again.

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  40. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
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    it's just prolonging the pain. much like the corporate bailouts are.

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  41. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    gil, link?

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  42. Robert G.
    • 233 friends
    • 120 reviews

    I love how people think calling others Communists and Socialist is this incredible insult. McCarthy did something right back in the day to really scare people.

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  43. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Gil "whoo hoo" S. says:

    As far as bad behavior, per the CEO of Wells Fargo, the four leading causes of foreclosures are death in the family, illness, job loss, and divorce.  Nothing like taking the family house away to teach people not to do that again.
    ------------
    Gil, my mortgage company offered "insurance" for all those cases....

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  44. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    and i'd also argue that perhaps HISTORICALLY, those have been the leading causes foreclosure.

    however, what about 2005 and beyond?

    there is a HUGE discrepancy between what investors are willing to pay for private label MBS originated pre-2005 vs 2005 and beyond. why do you think that is?

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  46. Gil S.

    The housing market became overheated, then crashed, largely due to the misdeeds and outright fraud of the large players in the industry.  If you wanted a house in that era, that's the price you paid and the loan you took.  Those who saved up and bought homes were the responsible ones, not the irresponsible ones.  It is not the consumers' fault that the housing market tanked and that loans aren't available now for refinance, workout, or new buyers.  Home mortgages were being pushed by the feds, the experts, the pundits, and the banks as legit.  A million families lost their homes last year and it's looking like twice that many this year.  In normal times, people with illness / disability, divorces, accidents, job loss, spouses and children of breadwinners could make the hard decisions, sell their house and scale down or move into an apartment.  Now many of those are underwater, and it is very hard to find buyers at all because of the glut of foreclosures and the unavailability of loans to new buyers.  Blaming the consumer for not being smarter than the entire financial industry in a time of deep recession is  harsh, talk about enabling bad behavior.  Turning two million more families out of their homes during a recession is cruel, might as well fire up the soup kitchens and welfare lines.... oh, I forgot, personal responsibility.  Clear some space under the freeway for tents.

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  47. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Louie you're funny. Gil you're not.

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  48. Chris C.
    • 45 friends
    • 549 reviews

    Thank you for the additional $13 a week I'll be seeing later on this year.

    Too bad my portion to pay for all the stimulus package is going to be about $50 a week.

    Guess, it's my job to pay for other people to stimulate the economy.

    But that's ok, as a responsible homeowner, that did things the "old fashion way" and took out a 30 year fixed on my home.  I'll be ok.  But then again, since I am responsible, I guess it's my job to bailout people who homes are being foreclosed on too.

    So you can add an additional $21 per month to my mortgage payment.

    Hey what does it matter that if I took out an ARM, I could very well have over $50K sitting in the bank and that since rates resets and people didn't save or bought more house than they could afford and hade their homes foreclosed on, that I saw a lost in my home value of $200K+.

    I'm getting a whole $676 to stimulate the economy!

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  50. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    gil, what are your sources for your claim as to who is responsible for the housing market crash?

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  51. Chris C.
    • 45 friends
    • 549 reviews

    Considering that if I took out an ARM, I could very well have $50K sitting in the bank and got a bailout plus add to that the $200K loss in value that I've seen in my home value, I think I have a quarter million dollar plus reasons to be pissed off about it.

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  52. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Blame everyone but the chimps (uh chumps) that lived beyond their means. They deserve getting kicked out of their homes because they should have never bought more than they should have. They should have read the contracts. They expected something (a big ol house, doubling equity every 2-4 years) for a 'mere pittance' of a monthly payment AND for NO MONEY down.  Greedy bastards, now we're paying for them and the government that encouraged it. This goes back to the Carter years when the economy really was bad.

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  53. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    C'mon you guys....don't pull me back into this conversation, don't get me going.....

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  54. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    from the funny bloomberg article i linked above, which i doubt anyone read...

    "America is supposedly outraged by your behavior. See America's outrage and raise it. "You blame Wall Street for this financial crisis?" Ken Lewis might ask, as only Ken Lewis might.

    "I'm not the guy who walked away from the house he bought but can't afford. I'm not the guy who reneged on his debts. All I did was make it possible for you ingrates to live large, like me." "

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  55. Gil S.

    Suge, what's with asking for sources?  Come on now, no silly high school debate tactics.  The causes of the housing bubble and credit crisis aren't very complicated.  

    Regarding the reasons for defaults and foreclosures, the loan servicing departments at all the banks keep records and most of them, from the most reckless to the most conservative lender, tell the same thing.  The #1 cause of foreclosure is change of income, and the biggest reason for that is job loss... and then the whole disability, illness, divorce, etc.  Of course you can blame people for losing their job, being overconfident if self-employed, or overestimating their job security, but that's entirely different than saying they spent beyond their means.  Depending on bank somewhere in the mid single digits are blamed on speculators / second homeowners / investors unable to support a cash-negative home they don't live in.  And they blame an equal number on people just being irresponsible, uncooperative, impossible to reach, etc.  To be fair, the "loss of income" category is probably overstated - that includes people who overestimated their income or defrauded the bank.You can google for this but if you want to find it from the Wells CEO, he made that claim again during his most recent Congressional testimony.

    I haven't seen the latest, but past homeowner assistance programs were hardly rewards and did not let anyone off free.  The goal is to avoid massive displacement and social upheaval.  Millions of people kicked out of their homes, many becoming homeless, is not a good thing.  And it will cause long term trouble and worsen the recession if it does.

    Craig, enough with the trolling.

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  56. Suge K.
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    it's not a high school debate tactic. you're trying to state as gospel that the people responsible are 'the large players in the industry' and i call bullshit and ask you where you get off saying that.

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  57. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
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    and you're not addressing my question  as to why mortgage securities that originated 2005 and beyond trade at a significant discount to ones originated before that?

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  58. Gil S.

    Go ahead.  You can call my points "bullshit" if you want to disagree, and you can complain that I am not providing footnotes, but I'm not going to play the silly game of asking or providing sources in a Yelp discussion.  Claims as to what caused the recession are not the kinds of things that get sourced anyway.

    Blaming it on the fat cats and fraud is to some extent a rhetorical flourish on my part.  My argument does not at all rest on who among the many culprits is responsible.  We're in a bad downturn, which is a normal economic cycle acerbated by bad government policy, failed economic models and assumptions, and the collapse of several related financial industries.  Those industries collapsed in large part due to misdeeds of the players and the government.  It's fair to expect consumers to know that the economy goes in cycles, life is unpredictable, you have to incorporate risk into your plans, etc.  However, it is not fair to burden them with the expectation that they would see more clearly than the body of experts and seemingly trustworthy sources out there that this recession would be far worse, and different, than the others.  A reasonable home buyer, acting on the information available at the time, would not have expected the present economy.  Many people who were reasonable and did exactly what we would want them to do, and what they were encouraged to do, are now suffering.

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  59. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Gil,

    You are nothing more than a verbose angry troll. Stop with insults. Stick to the talking points. If you can.

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  60. CK S.
    • CK S.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 0 friends
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    Let's just take a closer look at the housing market.
    Who, exactly was responsible for charging the high prices in the first place? (excluding brand new homes)
    The home owners who were selling at ridiculously over inflated prices.
    Who drained every last vapor of equity out of the home's value taking second & third mortgages to live way beyond their means?
    The home owner who drank the kool ade of their own avarice.

    Yes, the home owners who played pass the buck all down the line share in the responsibility for this mess.

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  61. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    John "Sideways™" b. says:

    glad your shit smells like roses, you can keep your head up your ass.

    -------------------

    au contraire john b. it's you that think your shit smells like roses. why else do you think i would care what you said a few days ago way back up this long-ass thread when i was busy going back and forth with john p?

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  62. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
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    what about assistance for SELECTED  homeowners instead? say for those who put down at least 10% in the first place. they're the only ones with a vested interest in their homes.

    anyone else bought a cheap or free call option on the real estate market.

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  63. Gil S.

    Craig, if you aren't the one who posted the homophobic racist crap in the other thread sorry if I mistook you with another anonymous no-picture poster named Craig and I'll try to be more careful.  That was the only reason, troll patrol - I'm not trying to antagonize you just for your opinion.

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  64. Connor H.
    • 183 friends
    • 63 reviews

    No Gil, Bush is a chimp....I didn't vote for him and i disagreed with most of what he did.  But why don't you you tube for barney frank, maxine waters and other dems from a couple of years ago and listen to them talking about how we need to dramatically expand credit availability for minorities, the poor...etc.  cause home ownership is great for  America.  Republicans tried to rein in fannie and freddie and the dems howled in protest saying they are doing a great job, they are solid companies...where are they now....failed, taken over by the govt.  I'm not saying it's all dems fault....everyone is to blame, homeowners, wall street, dems and republicans.  
    F

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  65. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    I'm on the fence with the housing bailout.

    On one hand, I've lived within my means. I didn't take a crazy loan. I want to buy a house. Why should I bailout some fool? Why reinflate a market that, as some of you say, needs to see a correction.

    Well the problem is unintended consequences. I haven't seen any opinions here that come close to an informed economic opinion. Most of the opinions here are based on emotion and principle (nothing wrong with that).

    Based on my limited economic understanding of the current situation, if we don't bolster the housing market, there are very dire banking consequences. With the current mark-to-market rules, a severe deflation of housing assets will put MANY banks out of business. Destroying any confidence that's leftover in the banking system could easily turn this recession into a depression.

    Perhaps that sounds like fear-mongering but I don't think it is. Based on the details of what's coming out the whole Lehman Brothers affair, it's become clear that liquidity is hard to come by. Even with the cash injections, banks are not lending.

    If banks don't lend, all American businesses will be affected. Many will fail prematurely (in the sense that they could've survived the downturn if cash was available but had to close because they couldnt' borrow what they normally would.)

    This could easily make this recession a lot worse than it needs to be.

    The housing situation is strongly connected to the dire economic straits we're in. Not just in that it's the cause, but also in that it could make it a lot worse.

    With that said, I don't think all homeowner should be allowed to pass Go and collect $200. There should be some serious consequences for the help we give them (whether it's future taxes or the terms by which they are refinanced). But if we allow freefall to continue, then so goes our economy.

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  66. Gil S.

    Suge, I don't know the details of this latest plan but I believe that's the intent.  The rhetoric is that they're trying to save homes of responsible people who are trying to do the right thing, and are salvageable.

    Even on their own without government assistance / prodding, the majority of modified loans go right back into default.  So to encourage the banks to be even more lax with the defaulters the government will have to be careful.   Fault or no fault, some mortgages can't be saved.  But those can still be bought, or handled more efficiently in some cases than a fast foreclosure auction.  With the banks it's a strictly economic decision, individual loan servicing officers are human beings and try to listen, but as an institution they're not sentimental.  With the government involved there's going to be a push to inject fairness into it - extra credit for disabled, military vets, people who got laid off, hard-hit communities, sick and old people, people affected by outsourcing, etc.  

    Some are a write-off anyway so the bank and the homeowner (and now the government / taxpayer) are all going to share the pain however you cut it.  Negotiating that deal with all the parties is tough because the homeowner has the most information about what's happening and probably isn't telling, and same with the bank.  A bailout without tight controls means the banks will dump their worst mortgages on the government for far more than they are realistically worth.  Devil is in the details.  I would normally be very fearful that the government could get it right, but they do a good job with the SBA in terms of setting and enforcing standards.

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  67. Gil S.

    Per Connor:

    "But why don't you you tube for barney frank, maxine waters and other dems" .... for the reason I explained to Suge about halfway to the top of this thread.   My original point in starting this thread wasn't gee, who can we blame for the economic mess, but gee, the Republicans are making a sad spectacle of themselves by obstructing attempts to save the economy.  The divisiveness, obstruction, and old school destructive political warfare are entirely a Republican thing at the moment in Washington.  The party shot itself in the foot during the last election, and their reaction right now is to shoot the other foot.

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  68. Suge K.
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    i have seen nothing to indicate original LTV requirements for bailouts.

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  69. Gil S.

    What I saw in the news accounts was a standard for percentage of income devoted to paying the loan.  LTV based on original equity would be stale by now but presumably they could do a new appraisal as part of the process - you'd have to see what's in the bill, and then the implementation.  There's a paradox with most of these, and existing bank modifications, that they're only available for defaulted mortgages so anyone who keeps current hasn't shown that they need help.

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  70. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    I'm on the fence with the housing bailout.
    ------------
    Damn Pete....me too....now what are we going to argue about?

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  71. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    it's more than likely just rearranging the deck chairs....

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  72. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Craig, if you aren't the one who posted the homophobic racist crap in the other thread sorry if I mistook you with another anonymous no-picture poster named Craig and I'll try to be more careful.  That was the only reason, troll patrol - I'm not trying to antagonize you just for your opinion
    ----------------------------
    I don't know anything about that post. Apology accepted.

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  73. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Average % of income devoted to home payments is/was 38% federales are floating a support program to bring down to 35 or 31 % I can't recall. Saving (across country averages) 3500.00 per household per year. This won't help.

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  74. Pete C.
    • 140 friends
    • 132 reviews

    John "Dobie" P. says:

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    I'm on the fence with the housing bailout.
    ------------
    Damn Pete....me too....now what are we going to argue about?

    ------------------------

    :) For fun, I can take one position and you can take the other.

    Bail-em all out! Every homeowner deserves a bailout! *shaking fist*

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  76. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Jerry,

    If you 'play' by the rules, then the rules are changed AND it costs you more money AND others get off. I think any rational person would be upset. Laugh at 'white property owners' all you want . It accomplishes little and only deepens their resolve to work harder (which I surmise you don't) and continue to 'get ahead' while the laggards  and leeches of our society drain their strength. You're setting the stage for real class warfare. See if you are laughing then.

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  79. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Karl Marx....so cliche...how many times does something have to be done over and over again with the same failed result before the stupid proletariat realizes they'd better get off their asses and work. Otherwise they're just expecting a different result and they are in fact crazy.

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  80. G L.
    • G L.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 64 friends
    • 89 reviews

    Craig M. says:
    how many times does something have to be done over and over again with the same failed result before the stupid proletariat realizes they'd better get
    ==================================
    sort of like tax cuts there huh Craigy

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  81. John P.
    • 736 friends
    • 189 reviews

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    John "Dobie" P. says:

    Pete "van she" C. says:

    I'm on the fence with the housing bailout.
    ------------
    Damn Pete....me too....now what are we going to argue about?

    ------------------------

    :) For fun, I can take one position and you can take the other.

    Bail-em all out! Every homeowner deserves a bailout! *shaking fist*
    ----------------
    Sorry Pete!  Damn work, gets in my way everyday!  Every homeowner deserves a bailout?  Even the idiotic Morons that bought a house knowing Damn good and well their welfare payments were not enough to cover the cost of the homes?

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  82. T C.
    • T C.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 94 friends
    • 29 reviews

    Drumbeat's growing for some kind of "restructuring" of the bigger banks (I'd call it 'nationalization" but a) they're already effectively nationalized if you look at market cap and TARP payouts and b) that word drived Americans cray-cray -- relax, we beat the soviet union already).

    businessinsider.com/greg…

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  83. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    Craig M. says:
    how many times does something have to be done over and over again with the same failed result before the stupid proletariat realizes they'd better get
    ============================== ====
    sort of like tax cuts there huh Craigy------------

    Gee the tax cuts worked very well for Kennedy, Reagan and kept us out of a longer deeper recession in 2001...

    my good friend me thinks you compare squash with cantelopes.  Try again buckwheat.

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  84. Chris C.
    • 45 friends
    • 549 reviews

    I know.  How dare those of us who were responsible and got one of those old fashioned fixed interest rates when rates were at the time a 30 year low be upset about bailing out other home owners who took out ARMs.  We should all be forced out of our homes at gun point and locked up and thrown in jail while our homes should be turned over to the state.

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  85. Gil S.

    People who got an ARM were playing by the rules too.  But that's a red herring.  The foreclosures and defaults aren't people who could afford a fixed rate loan but not a variable rate loan.  It's people who were (in the bank's estimation) able to make payments, or who had enough equity in the home to be able to bail out if they needed, but are now in a situation where: (1) their ability to pay decreased due to a change in circumstance, and (2) their home is underwater and therefore unsaleable without the bank's permission.

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  86. T C.
    • T C.
    • San Francisco, CA
    • 94 friends
    • 29 reviews

    Karl Marx -- i think there's a law about having a copy of that in every bay area nightstand, like the bible and the book of mormon, isn't there?

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  87. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    "The foreclosures and defaults aren't people who could afford a fixed rate loan but not a variable rate loan. "

    nope.. that's why the problem is happening now. the bubble burst in the real estate market. these people - with encouragement from shady mortgage brokers - convinced themselves that they could get a 3 or 5 year ARM - most likely an IO. don't worry that you can only pay principal - THE REAL ESTATE MARKET WILL ONLY GO UP. that was the major flaw in the thinking of everyone involved. but the real estate market did go down. and that's why mortgages vintaged 2005 and beyond are shit. that's why a lot of these people had a call option on the real estate market. and they lost.

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  88. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    No it's the people who (were allowed/given/pushed) loans for homes for NO DOWN payment and teaser rates. The people foolishly thought equity would go up past the 'whenever' rate change would occur, then re-fi  then pull money out---ain't they smart. When prices tumble the no down payment made it easy to walk, which they did. I hope they took their microwaves, SUV's, plasma screens, food processors, CD collection, DVD players and European vacations with them. Not to mention their fake Fendi/Chanel/D&G/ etc. etc. purses, Bloomies/Nordstroms/Neiman Marcus etc. etc. clothes with them

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  89. Chris C.
    • 45 friends
    • 549 reviews

    Suge K. says:

    nope.. that's why the problem is happening now. the bubble burst in the real estate market. these people - with encouragement from shady mortgage brokers - convinced themselves that they could get a 3 or 5 year ARM - most likely an IO. don't worry that you can only pay principal - THE REAL ESTATE MARKET WILL ONLY GO UP. that was the major flaw in the thinking of everyone involved. but the real estate market did go down. and that's why mortgages vintaged 2005 and beyond are shit. that's why a lot of these people had a call option on the real estate market. and they lost.
    ____
    +1 Suge.  Also article with the details of basically what Suge just summed up:  bloomberg.com/apps/news?…

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  90. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    link doesn't work.. does bloomberg fuck up links?

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  91. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    apparently it does.

    here is the one i tried to post yesterday

    tinyurl.com/ddc9gd

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  92. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    and i still fucked it up...

    tinyurl.com/ag3528

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  93. Chris C.
    • 45 friends
    • 549 reviews

    Damn - well here it is from tiny - tinyurl.com/cn68wr hope this one works.

    But if not the article is called "Foreclosures May Hit 1.5 Million in U.S. Housing Bust" and it was written March 12th, 2007.

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  94. Gil S.

    Suge, you're referring to loans with extra low payments for the first few years, that went up when the rates adjusted?  We should look for some statistics I just don't believe it's the case that these are the bulk of foreclosures.  Interest only is not significantly different than interest plus principal in the first few years at normal rates so the question is initial low interest rates, or else anything with negative amortization.

    With a normal loan in normal times, 20% down, at any interest rate, is in theory supposed to give enough of a cushion that if times change they can sell their house, possibly at a loss, but at least avoid foreclosure and pay back their loan.  That iallows for normal ups and downs of the housing market, given the degree of risks the banks thought they could deal with.   Obviously there are local bad markets, say when a one-factory town loses its factory, or a neighborhood deteriorates, and there is some background level of people who just go south on the loan.  If that were too risky then frankly it is up to the bank to figure that out and protect itself.

    Whether someone put zero down or 20% down they are underwater either way in this economy.  The first 5-6% gets taken off the top in realtor and other fees, and new condos lose value on day 1 because they're no longer new -  a 10% down condo is underwater from the start.

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  95. Suge K.
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    gil - i'm not just talking about teaser rates - i'm talking about all subprime and alt-a crap. those are the bulk of the foreclosures. i'll look for some statistics, but there's a reason subprime bonds trade at HUGE discounts and alt-a bonds trade at big discounts to prime stuff. it's defaults. and bankruptcies. and people who should have never gotten mortgages in the first place. prime bonds are trading just fine - and agency bonds are trading better than ever. and that's an indication of the housing market.

    how about people who sold their houses at record levels? why make all taxpayers pay for this fiasco? if you're not going to make people accept responsibility for making really stupid decisions, why not make all those who profited pay the bulk of it?

    (i don't think that's a good idea, i think it's just as dumb as the bailout)

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  96. Suge K.
    • 308 friends
    • 306 reviews

    cute little joke about the stimulus plan....

    Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House. One is from Chicago , another is from Tennessee , and the third is from Minnesota .
    All three go with a White House official to examine the fence. The Minnesota contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil. "Well," he says, "I figure the job will run about $900: $400 for materials, $400 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

    The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700: $300 for materials, $300 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

    The Chicago contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the White House official and whispers, "$2,700."

    The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?"

    The Chicago contractor whispers back, "$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence."

    "Done!" replies the government official.

    And that, my friends, is how the new stimulus plan will work.

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  97. Craig M.
    • 24 friends
    • 78 reviews

    This is time for reflection on 'objectivsm' and selfishness.

    It turns out greed is good. It's never good for the ship when every rat jumps off.

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  99. Gil S.

    Why should taxpayers pay?
    1) if they don't, the economy goes down the drain a lot faster than it is now
    2) Arguments trying to demonize families who followed the wisdom of the time and did exactly what they were supposed to, putting their life savings into a house, are just petty, mean, and harsh.
    3) Why should the supposedly responsible people who did the right thing pay for those who didn't?  Same reason people like me with a marketable skill like lawyering are bailing out idiots who took their chances with trendy but now-impractical professions like teacher, construction worker, and fitness coach.  We're all part of the human race, we help each other out when they're down.  We recognize that the difference between success and ruin is often chance, not personal virtue.

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  100. Gil S.

    The so-called mortgage bail-out is only for conforming VA loans, for the difference between people who can afford to spend 31% of their gross income and those who can spend 38%.  And only for people current on their mortgages.  I haven't figured out what strings are attached either.  Anybody trying to portray this as a give-away for irresponsible speculators is either disingenuous or misinformed.

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