And now a moment of clarity between fossil fuels and organic/renewable fuels.

They are on and the same.

Do you really think that "fossil fuel" is all dinosaurs?  Do you realize how many dinosaurs there would have been to generate the fuel we the human race burn?

No, it's all organic fuel.  It's biodegraded plant and animal life that has naturally gone through the same processes used to make "bio-diesel (animal/vegetable fats) and ethanol (plant sugars).

ALL of the fuel you buy is - organic fuel...

The difference is that we pump the magic "dino-fuel" out of a magic place in the ground...

Who knew - Rockefeller built a "green business" over a hundred years before it became trendy.

All fuel has toxins and greenhouse gasses.  Put down your Sierra Club sign...

this could be an interesting discussion.  but I doubt it will work out that way.  

Bottom line, there is no fuel known to man that has the BTU of petroleum products.  Every fuel has its downside.  "organic" fuel ... whatever that means ... does not have an amnesty on the rule.  All fuels have an affect on the environment.

I would like Dan to further explain clean fuel from original source to exertion.

And not a rickshaw.

maybe someday, we'll find a way to generate all that "carbon monoxide" for Dan without burning fuels.  

and there were no organics 4 billion years ago, except perhaps Madonna.

Right now oil is needed and bio-fuel is just a novelty.

It would be nice to transition over - but the technology is at least 20+ years out from even considering bio-fuel more than a novelty and a replacement for oil.

Who cares about bio-fuel and electric cars?  I want teleporters like in Star Trek!!!

You figured me out Troy - I'm getting paid MILLIONS of dollars from Koch Bothers and Exxon and don't forget I'm also on Mitt Romney, Chevron, Monsanto, and a variety of other companies payroll as well.

Because looking at current bio-fuel technology, where's it's trending, and the amount of corn needed to make a gallon of ethanol and comparing that to my direct usage of oil with driving and flights and all the indirect goods and services I use (i.e. all food items, clothes, deliveries, etc) and realizing the importance of oil in our society must mean I'm on someone's payroll.

If only life was as simple as "go buy an electric car and put solar panels on your roof" you might actually have a point there.

Its 2013, why don''t we have those teleporters yet?

Troy - to put it bluntly - i'm pro energy, whether that's oil, solar, natural gas, nuclear, wind, etc...

Because in the immediate future and probably for a majority of the rest of my life, we're going to need oil.

But I'm not so short sighted in realizing there is a limited amount of oil and there will be a need for alternatives.

As to electric cars and solar panels - the answer is simple.  You're looking at around $35K for an electric car minimum and between $25K (on the cheap side) up to $100K (basically you're off the grid) for a solar system.  While my wife and I make good money, who has an extra $75K to spare especially when your ROI is measured in decades.

In my case, I did a anyalsis and it was around 25 years for a break even on a solar system.

As i said, simple to say, but a whole lot different when you consider real life.

I'll say it again...

"fossil fuel" is nothing more than the same fuel that is made in some hippy's garage from vegetable fats.

Troy, the moment "Propel Fuels" has a spill, it will look exactly like that.  Deal with it, it's reality.  The reason you haven't seen that yet is because nobody has that much of it stored.

Fossil Fuel - is organic in it's original state - crude oil.  It's plant and animal matter that has decomposed in great quantities that is stuck in the earth.  Technically it's renewable.  There isn't a finite amount - the earth is creating more each day.  Whether we are burning more than the earth is creating is questionable - but the earth is creating more.

By growing fuel (corn, sugar beets, etc) and recycling fryer oil - and then refining these products into usable fuel are following the EXACT same path as the refiners that are pumping "fossil fuels" out of the ground.

One and the same.

Life is as simple as putting solar panels on your roof and buying an electric car - assuming you can live within the means of the stored energy you can produce.

However to move a truck full of solar panels or a car hauler full of electric cars - well there's still some limits to what electric motors can do.

That's why we use combustion engines and fuel - of any type.

Even our big trains for hauling millions of tons of cargo - are electric.  But the electricity is produced by big diesel generators in the locomotives.

But whether you grow corn and distill it, or add chemicals to fryer grease to refine it, or just pump it out of the ground - it's all fuel from the same source - organic matter.

The More You Know!!!  =D

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15 minutes ago Brett "I make Global Warming fun" N. says:

I'll say it again...

"fossil fuel" is nothing more than the same fuel that is made in some hippy's garage from vegetable fats.

=======================
OK drink half a pint of your organic fuel, I mean it is organic so it should be OK

troy s. says:

Technology will move as fast as we want it to. It is all a matter of investment.  

We don't need oil for our daily commute to work.  We could be driving electric cars charged from wind and solar.
----------

The first part is somewhat true.  Of course, the investment "non-fossil fuel" would mean giving up on every other technology.  And of course, at that point, what would be the point in needing energy?  I mean, if you give up your washing machine, you don't need electricity.  

The second part -- right.  How funny.   How much solar panel does it take to generate enough electricity to charge a vehicle to move 50 miles?   How much on a cloudy day?   And how big will the wind generator on my car be?

"We don't need oil for our daily commute to work.  We could be driving electric cars charged from wind and solar."

Uh huh.  But wait - don't most people drive during daylight hours and charge their cars at night, when solar doesn't generate?  (Excluding technologies like molten salt tower turbine configurations in deserts, which "environmentalists" oppose anyway.)  

And just how windy is it in CA during nighttime hours in clear weather?  Hardly at all.

Maybe Troy can develop overnight electricity generation by harnessing the collective power output of crickets.

Tell me about batteries troy.   Tell me how they are constructed.  Tell me which raw materials go into batteries.  Tell me how the materials are made from minerals.  Tell me how those minerals are obtained.  
Tell me what happens to batteries when the useful life is expired, when they no longer will hold a charge.  What happens to those?  How are they disposed?   Tell me how the waste management cycle can handle 100,000 now, and 1,000,000 in a handful of years.  

Now, tell me how those batteries will hold a charge so I can drive 300 miles at an average speed of 65 mph with 4 adults and luggage in the back.   Tell me how we can make the return home after spending a weekend in a spot where it only rained.  

Solar panels are on top of cars are a decent idea.  except wait, then you no longer want to park in a garage........

GH
Auto makers are getting close to getting to the 200 mile range per charge.  But more to the point, how often do I need to drive 300 miles?  More likely you drive 30 miles for a commute, 5 miles to a store, 50 miles for a weekend trip.....no reason why an electric vehicle can't be used.

oh and Lithium batteries are recyclable and are also used for other purposes once they can no longer serve the requirements of a vehicle.

Read a book called "Bottled Lightning" , it is facinating and buy SQM stock...number one miner of lithium and other minerals.
amazon.com/Bottled-Light…

I hate the obnoxious loudness of most internal combustion engine cars. It causes all sorts of misery for us poor souls who have to endure the psychological and physical trauma all the noise and pollution causes. Enough with this crap.

Car horns and brakes make too much noise, we should remove them or charge drivers a dollar per second or something. Honk credits.

So we just pump oil directly from the ground into our cars?

Dumbfock conservatives are always going to fight alternative energy bc it's something faggotty liberals are excited about.  

Be pragmatic.

Or put sugarcane right into a combustion chamber ?

Be like me I find the nearest fat fuck and ride him/her to work everyday

All you need is a lasso and a sausage

Seems totally plausible, Balut.

Seriously. Strong legs and an insatiable need for sausage gets your ass to work on time.

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
GH
Auto makers are getting close to getting to the 200 mile range per charge.  But more to the point, how often do I need to drive 300 miles?  More likely you drive 30 miles for a commute, 5 miles to a store, 50 miles for a weekend trip.....no reason why an electric vehicle can't be used.
....

I agree with this ^. The only problem is solar, wind and geothermal will not supple enough energy for CA let alone the other 50 states. Nuclear would go a long way in supplying adequate power but no one will allow a nuke plant in their back yard.

The other problem being long haul trucking which will require diesel for the foreseeable future.

When Obama first announced his energy efficiency standards I was pretty skeptical. But I have to admit a lot of the time it seems like car manufactures will not change unless forced to by either extreme market swings or regulation.

Noe
we will still be dependent on fossil fuels for some time...but if we wean off using it where we can it would be of great benefit not just to the environment but lessen our thirst for foreign oil, which as of now is really sick.

Another problem is the stigma of the American market.

Car manufactures are reluctant to bring a lot of European and Asian models into the US due previous failures.

Im hella jealous of a lot of BMW's and Audis I see with Mexican plates.

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
GH
Auto makers are getting close to getting to the 200 mile range per charge.

Name one production vehicle certified to guarantee even 120 all-weather miles per charge.  

Name the manufacturer and model of your 200-mile range vehicle (prototype, even).

troy s. says:
I guess solar powered charging systems at your work are totally beyond our technological abilities, Lucas.

Gee, how many workplaces even HAVE outdoor parking lots with appropriate sun exposure such that you can CONSIDER installing charging stations?  Even those that do tend to have at most one row of charging stations -- maybe 5% of lot capacity.   And unless those are ADDITIONAL spaces, your IC-motor vehicles will compete for those same spots, and people won't drive electric vehicles only to get stranded because they didn't get a space with a charger...  so that means it only works if EVERY space in the lot has a charger.  And appropriate sun exposure.  

And even then, you're screwed on bad-weather days.  And midwinter.

If you ever decide to join the real world, you will have to start thinking of these things.

troy s. says:
I am afraid that communities that allow Fracking are destroying their deep fresh water supplies that we will most likely need in the coming century.

That's going on NOW, right HERE IN CA, in Kern county (among other places), WITHOUT fracking.  Why don't you give a crap about THEM?

the oil i use to make my popcorn is okay though, yes?

Lucas
All are proto types but some people who have done conversions are claiming tney are getting 200 miles per charge

I've seen the battery upgrades for Priuses (sp) and owners claim 150+mpg but we're talking tens of thousands of dollars in upgrades to drive a boring box.

But I guess if you're like wimpy it'll make you feel superior in some way ?

G, name them.   Name any with any objective measurement whatsoever that passes NHTSA scrutiny and DOT requirements. (none exists)    

Are these "people" also claiming perpetual motion or cold fusion?


Brian, unless you are using organic coconut oil, you will die.

Noe, we are talking pure electrics here.   The plug-in hybrid mileage numbers are all cooked.

What saw I was the actual installation performed down south a few years ago..

Dont remember the companies name but here's a similar story engadget.com/2007/10/20/…

But yeah mpg numbers much like horsepower are often exaggerated by owners and manufacturers

"By adding a 175 pound battery pack to the trunk of a Prius -- which fits conveniently under the floor panel -- and charging overnight using a regular power plug, owners will be able to drive for up to 50 miles on battery power alone: that's well over the average motorist's daily journey. It'll cost $9,500 including installation,"

Yeah, and my F150 gets over 100MPG when going downhill or being towed.

Again, real world: there is a mileage cost to lugging that extra 175 lbs... and it's in the REAR of the vehicle, which reduces traction on a front-wheel drive and adversely affects things like steering geometry and wear/tear on the suspension.

Plug-in hybrid mileage numbers are phony because they count as "free" the preloaded power in the batteries.

* Just passin' through,...I got nuthin'....*

troy s. says:
I am afraid that communities that allow Fracking are destroying their deep fresh water supplies that we will most likely need in the coming century.

-------------
I'd like to see proof, one solid example out of the millions of fracking blasts over the past few years that've tainted drinking water. If anything Fracking is making the extraction of fuels more efficient which ends up requiring less fuel to extract fuels which means less pollution.

This is all I could find one small community where the fracturing waste water pond was put ontop of a hill and the pond leaked so waste water got mixed in with their well water. It was an error of bad storage of the industrial waste not the fracturing itself that tainted the water.

nytimes.com/2011/11/20/m…

Hey, there is nothing wrong with a few electric cars.  I don't mind them.  The crazy part is all the yahoos who think they are the ultimate answer.   G.L.,  200 miles?    As I said, with a full load, not just 1 person.  

The bottom line:   Nothing has the stored energy capacity of fossil fuel.  Except an atom.  But I don't think we want to be splitting them while sitting in the driver's seat any time soon.   You want solar and battery power -- it will happen.  When the free market allows it to happen.  Or, you can allow the government to take more of your freedom.

Fracking ---  it has been going on for 50 years.

GH, hydrogen and CNG have adequate energy density.  What's missing there is breadth of access to refueling, which is a curable problem.

But electric in CA is a joke, given how much of CA's electricity supply is either "fossil fuel" generated, or imported.

Lucas ...  CNG is Compressed Natural Gas, a fossil fuel.  

Hydrogen  fuel .. does not occur, has to be manufactured.  And to do so efficiently, you use fossil fuel to do so.  

See, all roads lead back to fossil fuel.

It all started with the big bang, apparently.

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Lucas B. says:

G, name them.   Name any with any objective measurement whatsoever that passes NHTSA scrutiny and DOT requirements. (none exists)    
===========================

man you are a bit testy
I said PROTOTYPE so DOT has not been involved...and I may have been off with 200 miles but there are alot at the 150 mil range,

The prototype vehicle is expected to have a range of 150 miles, and also features a KleenSpeed Controller to a 100 kW/134 HP electric motor with 221 lb ft of torque

kleenspeed.com/kleenspee…

Coda starts motoring with up to 150-mile range EV

news.cnet.com/8301-11128…

oh and has anyone looked at Tesla stock  (tsla) holy bejesus   $91.3

I bought at $23

G "Anthropocentric" H. says:
200 miles?    As I said, with a full load, not just 1 person.  
==========================================
How often do you do a 200 or 300 mile trip GH compared to a 30 mile commute, a 4 mile drive to the store or a quick weekend trip somewhere?  
Almost everyone can use an EV for the latter type of car driving
oh and GM is working on a 200 mile range EV.

TRoy says: " So why not start now? "

---------------

Because as the fuel supply dwindles we make money lots and lots of money. One day our reserves will be so valuable that we can solve our debt problems and that will be the day we tap into to it. If someone taps into it too early then America's golden age will for sure be done.

@troy ...  I understand your concern, even if it is a little Chicken Littleish.  

Run out of oil?  Well, in the late 1970's, they were saying we would be out of oil by this decade.  However, I do agree that it is a finite resource.  Is it 20 years?  40 years?  5 years?   I don't know, but I do know it will be a moving target.  

Live without hydrocarbons?   Well, look at the screen you are using to type this, and ask yourself, "what would I be looking at without hydrocarbons?".     What does the world do with hydrocarbons?  Did you know it isn't all about energy?   How was gasoline invented?  Why did they start using gasoline with internal combustion engines?  

Modern civilization will not "simply end".   If left to its own devices, the invisible hand will tell us when the cost of hydrocarbons is too high for us.  Let the market decide.   Want to start now?  Fine.  Go for it!   Guess what, my wife drives a Prius.  Probably drove it before you had a clue about what a Prius was.  She has driven it 8 years.  My water consumption -- based on what the papers say about average per capita consumption, I am on the low side.  Energy use for my house -- based on similar data, my household is on the low side.   I use less energy than the Toyota Yaris that zooms past me going 55 in a 35 zone while sporting a "COEXIST" and "Save the Earth" bumper sticker.

I am not against coal powered cars.  Or Hybrids.  I just laugh at the romantic notions of those who want to force them on me.

Looks like some people are starting now
New 2013 Nissan LEAF A Big Hit, Over 1,900 Sold In March

insideevs.com/new-2013-n… 1,900 Sold In March
-----------------------------------------------------
oh and GH I don't think anyone was forcing an EV on you, rather you seem to always poo poo EV's and promote fossil fuel

@GL ...  it doesn't matter how often I drive that far.  What matters is my requirements.  By the way, my son at university is 310 miles away to the north.  My daughter at university is 300 miles east.   If I want to drive to Disneyland, its 80 miles each way.  Getty Museum is 100 miles each way.  Palm Springs, 190 miles round trip ... at a minimum.  

"Almost everyone can use an EV for the latter type of driving." ...   So, if I can only afford one car ... I have to get a car that can't meet my needs?   And remember dude ... those mileage statistics you quote ..., even the 40 mile range, those are for a car empty of everything but average interior and one driver.  Mileage goes down drastically when you include the family -- or carpool partners.

If I am going to own 3 cars, an EV is a grand idea.  Hell, I'd drive a golf cart if the city would allow them on public streets.  

I am glad to see companies working on the long distance issue.  But I have no romantic illusions about them being the best thing since sliced bread.

Yes, the LEAF is a big hit.   That is an annualized rate of 25,000 (generous math).   The total car sales for 2013 on an annualized basis is 15,000,000.   Awesome!

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
How often do you do a 200 or 300 mile trip GH compared to a 30 mile commute, a 4 mile drive to the store or a quick weekend trip somewhere?  
Almost everyone can use an EV for the latter type of car driving

Yes, but not "almost everyone" can afford to have multiple cars sitting around for different uses.

("latter"?  you envision using an EV for weekend trips but not short daily commutes?)

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
oh and GM is working on a 200 mile range EV.

Yeah, GM has shown so much credibility over the years in real-world success in EVs.

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
oh and has anyone looked at Tesla stock  (tsla) holy bejesus

Gee, maybe they could start paying back some of that $450 million they got from US taxpayers?

Ever have anything positive to say Lucas?

and then there is this
Tesla plans stock offering to repay government loan early

money.cnn.com/2013/05/15…

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:

Ever have anything positive to say Lucas?
------
LOL, I think Lucas gets off on finding things on Yelp that it can argue about. Its quite boring to always be presented with an argument and never budging towards an agreement or anything even remotely constructive.

Another time for a moment of clarity.

Everyone shows up at work with their slick new battery powered cars and says "Fill 'er up Sam!"  Any idea on where that electricity is going to come from?  

Anyone remember rolling blackouts/brownouts?

Cut down your power usage during peak hours (air conditioning running at full load right around the time the charging station is full?)

What happens when you're on a trip and need to recharge?  Are you going to stop at a "gas station" for 4 hours every hundred miles?

Reality check - we need a better solution.  Right now the best solution is the internal combustion engine.

Now, bio-diesel/ethanol/natural gas are still going to produce greenhouse gasses when they are used - however they do make a good attempt at getting us off of foreign oil.

Hybrids are great - but I don't see any long haul diesel trucks converting to battery packs anytime soon.  Diesel-electric maybe, like a modern train, but battery technology isn't there yet.

My biggest pet peeve is when liberals think that somehow burning olive oil is "ethically better" than burning anything they get from OPEC.  It's basically the same stuff.  It's plant matter that has been processed.

It's good to see new technology coming out.  But what happens when Hydrogen goes mainstream?    Are we entirely sure that Hydrogen won't have some other effect?  If it produces water, will we have another climate change issue with humidity?

Nobody knows, but the liberal elite claim it solves all problems and gives an excuse to demonize "big oil" - which by the way is STILL used by all of your liberal elitist politicians to travel in taxpayer funded transportation.

It's a great alternative to gasoline - it's portable and can go the distance and complete.  You can fill up in a few minutes, not a few hours.

Hydrogen/battery hybrid?  Maybe - but we're still a long ways off.

All the efforts of companies like Hydrogenics, Tesla, and even (gulp) Toyota and that fugly no-fun, retarded egg looking Prius - these are all good efforts to find better ways.

But making them a poitical and social agenda isn't helping anyone.

Subsidizing these things just makes them cost more and puts more burden on creativity.

Quit hating, quit demonizing, quit outlawing and start engineering...

Batteries are a HUGE toxic waste problem.  If everyone converted, we'd just have them to deal with instead of emissions.

When was there a rolling blackout recently?

And the ones we had were greed manifested and had nothing to do with supply and demand short comings

So they'll never happen again, right?

Even if somehow PG&E never had another problem with load...  (yeah, RIGHT).  Your statement about the rolling blackouts being about greed are - well....ignorant.  And I'm sure that greed doesn't exist in your world anymore - so we don't have to worry, right?  Never happen again!!!!  Oye......

Do you know the daily count of cars that go in and out of the city?  I've found someone that claims ~35,000.

7x7.com/travel-active/pa…

Now, we all know better than to fuel up in SF unless we have to because it's expensive.  But now everyone would have to.  Are you really telling me that it's practical to charge up 35,000 cars daily?  Because while they claim 100-200 miles - we all know that isn't reality when you sit in stop and go traffic.  I would say 75% of them - or more would need to charge up before going home.  So now there's a requirement to install 25,000 charging stations in SF in all parking lots.

Are you paying for this Mister Ninja?  Who will?  Can you imagine the cost of parking in SF to support this infrastructure?  I mean I know parking in SF is pretty cheap right now but....  (rolls eyes).

Again reality says it's not practical right now.

I know that liberals hate facts and reality, but they exist.  

Again, stop hating and start engineering...  Geez!

Whatever, stop being so narrow sighted and open your mind
EV's are viable now, just not for long trips and R and D teams all over the world are working on battery technology.

EV' s are better than ICV's in every way than the mileage limit

Hate stopped,

Engineer check,

Thanks Brett, thou pseudo theory hast saved thy world.

OK let's see, EV does not have a fuel injector or carb, no ignition timing, does not need as much of  an extreme cooling system, no valves, no spark plugs, no timing belt and no smog system.
All they have are a motor, a battery system, a controller, inverter, rectifier and charger

Ev's are somewhere in the 80% efficiency range (meaning the amount of power you get out vs what you put in) where as an ICV is something like 20%

They shut off when you are stopped at a stoplight or in traffic, oh and they can regen power when coasting

Ché "Embracing the Stereotype" D. says:
They are paying it back
in the form of job creation and an increased local tax base

Like Fisker?

businessinsider.com/how-…

In the near future we will lessen the need for an outside line of electricity for some it will disappear altogether. We'll increase our options of turning our waste and other renewable resources that are found in and around the house or office into electricity.

Which also seems to go hand in hand with the Smart Grid that is being implemented. For instance the example of who gets charged when you are parked downtown will not be an issue. The charging station will identify the person plugged in by their EV. You charge They charge we're one big happy charged up family.

smartgrid.gov

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
Whatever, stop being so narrow sighted and open your mind
EV's are viable now, just not for long trips...

OK, that's the second time he wrote that, so it wasn't a typo.

Saying that an EV is suitable for long trips (let alone ideal for long trips) is idiotic.  They have their applications, but long trips is not one of them.

^ He didn't say that Lucifas, quit being an A-Hole please.

So let's take the typical commuter from San Pablo that hops on 80 - and sits....and sits.... radio going, air conditioner running...  Starting and stopping, starting and stopping.  Plugging in his iCrap® device to charge it...  Sitting in line to go across the bridge, sitting in traffic on the other side waiting to park, and finally after over an hour - parking.

The latest Tesla may or may not have enough juice to endure the ride home.

Uh Oh, accident on the bridge - traffic is backed up.  Still running AC, radio, start/stop.

Well, he's pushing it- but he'll probably make it home with just enough juice to go up the driveway and then - no more going out in the car - no grocery trips, nowhere - because he's gotta charge up.

Now let's take me...  I go into the city a few times a month - from Sacramento...  It's 100 miles each way - door to door.  That is the absolute limit of an EV.  End of story.

Any traffic jams, delays, AC, radio - I'm out of juice.

I can't just stop along the way for a couple hours.  I *MUST* charge up in the city.

Your little ignorant environment may support the electric car - mine does not.

I'm not telling you that you can't have what you want...  Are you telling me that I can't have what I want, and that I can't have something that meets my needs?

Again, some good ideas in your liberal utopian mind, but reality states something entirely different.

Here's another picture of what happens when liberals refuse to face reality.

picpaste.com/Solyndra_Bu…

^ Simple fix, work from home.

Raise of hands how many jobs require us to be in the FIDI anymore?

Not mine, my boss is just a d*

Rory, you're right, I misread the second reference as "not just" instead of "just not".

Mine does.  Sorry, there's that "reality" crap again that seems to annoy you so much.

^ wow you owned up to a mistake Lucas. *begins a slow clap*

My work here is done, have a nice weekend! I'm off to God's country, to get whiskey bent and hell bound.

You mean pseudo reality Brett, you havne't spoken one thing of reality just a couple "what ifs"

I'm out for realz. Peace.

Brett
you are conjuring up situations that are the extreme...caught in a traffic jam?
EV's don't use energy when in a stopped position and if it is stop and go they use very little energy.  It would be comparable to a guy who was running low on gas and was in the same situation....which is no different from today so your point s completely useless

if I wanted to be as obtuse as you I could say (going back to your ridiculous rolling black out situation) that ICE vehicles would be affected as well because guess what is used to pump gas at the gas station?  aint gas

G L .... your romantic little notion is just that.   EV's use energy to turn the fans that turn the air conditioning.  Roll down the windows?  That takes battery power.  And just because you want to say, "the weather is nice enough here we don't run the AC", just remember, its hot in Sacramento.  Hot in the Central Valley.  Hot in Cleveland, St Louis, Dallas and everywhere else the cars must be operating to make even Tesla sell enough cars to stay in business.    Of course, even then, will you sit in traffic with the windows down while you are stuck behind that garbage scowl?

EV's use energy in a standing position unless the humanoid remains on the outside.

By the way, EV's are not hybrids.  Most cannot recharge with coasting.

again it is no different than some guy low on gas stuck in traffic......

poo poo platters

You know what they use to say to people who drove the first gas cars down the road as they huffed and sputtered and broke down?   "get a horse"

oh and cars were still viewed in a bad eye because they had to be hand cranked to start...but geee some guy worked out that little issue ...so the same is true for EV's they are in their infancy but they aint going away this time

so GH and Brett hope you enjoy your horse and buggy old ass way thinkers

^
actually that was suppose to say "horse and buggy ride old ass thinking motherfuckers"

You drinking GL ?

nope , just tired of some old ass horse and buggy riding motherfuckers with closed minds and no innovation

Eeeh, I think their problem is sacramental assholes who always think they know what's best for the rest of us...

goes both ways

True.. I love that Mark Sanford was reelected with his mistress at his side.

Lol the irony there is just Lolz 8)

G "pretty much a ninja" L. says:
Brett
you are conjuring up situations that are the extreme...caught in a traffic jam?
EV's don't use energy when in a stopped position

yeah, their lights, instruments, stereo, Bluetooth, heating, A/C, and wipers all run on magic Cold Fusion reactors built into the hood ornaments

Gotta love this G L.   Someone doesn't agree with his way of thinking, so he has to resort to calling us a foul name.  Its that grown-up way of thinking that is going to convince me to his way of thought.    

GL ... you have passed your interview for the Obama White House.

I meant it with fondness GH :)

my issue is that anything you guys perceive as "liberal" you come out and attack...that is all

so carry on, the environment is doing great , global warming is a myth

my interview with the IRS is next week...I'll be checking your returns if I get the job

EV's are here, and here to stay...  But the combustion engine is nowhere near gone.  Enjoy your own little ignorant world - of course you will - you're in a town that embraces homeless and outlaws plastic bags.

Spastic reaction to plastic bags is a fucking joke, over packaged products are everywhere. And as a whole, eclipse "feel good" bag impact

G "Anthropocentric" H. says:
EV's use energy to turn the fans that turn the air conditioning.  Roll down the windows?  That takes battery power.  And just because you want to say, "the weather is nice enough here we don't run the AC", just remember, its hot in Sacramento.
=============================
Yes GH,  but what is that old line?  "necessity is the mother of invention"  they already are working on the AC and heating systems for EVs

But a heating and cooling system under development almost eliminates the drain on the battery. The researchers are working with Ford on a system that they hope to test in Ford's Focus EV within the next two years. The work is being funded with a $2.7 million grant from the Advanced Research Projects Agency for Energy.
technologyreview.com/new…

Troy how about you dig up some numbres on environmental cost of drilling and refining oil and gas vs building a battery. You might want to keep in mind plastics are heavily used in batteries as well. This would alot more informational than your hypothetical monologues of BS rhetorical questions.

MIT is working on a swamp cooler that has zero mass and takes up zero volume?  wow.

not surprisingly, the provided MIT link is bogus.

Troy, how many batteries in the USA are recycled right now?  3%?  Far more go into landfills or third world dumps.

I bet these clowns don't even use rechargable batteries for their own removable-battery (AA, AAA, C, D) cell devices, like I do.

I dunno... I thing GL and Troy could probably use some lithium themselves

You two have to be serious numbnuts to think you can just state something so opinionative without supplying links or references.

Natural Gas better than lithium...Zero Mass upstairs...Non-Rechargable batteries are incapable of being recycled and their rechargable counterparts that get recharged from a coal or gas plant are greener?

On the subject though I did see a gift item I'd love to receive. Its a solar panel backpack that comes with rechargable battery outlets. Now if I can only get rid of the fog.

I hear the Obama administration has given LG a $1.4 Billion grant to develop a matter-antimatter-reactor blender.

In a few years the United States will not only be independent on oil and natural gas, it will be a net exporter.  Iraq will more than double its output in a few years.  Iran will drop in its production.  Venezuela, if it ever recovers from the mess that Hugo Chavez left behind will still be pumping.  

Giggler, troy thinks we laugh at scientific research.  He fails to reason that we consider and look at it objectively.  Unlike troy, we do not cherry pick our science.

Lucas B. says:
MIT is working on a swamp cooler that has zero mass and takes up zero volume?  wow.

not surprisingly, the provided MIT link is bogus.
===========================
bogus?
you are so fucking lame...if you go to MIT's website they refer directly to the link I supplied.  

check it out

drl.mit.edu

I wrote that the PROVIDED link:
drl.mit.edu/research.cgi…

is bogus.  And it is.

Meanwhile, GL won't even acknowledge the mass and volume trade-off (let alone COST) for such a device.  It messes with GL's fantasy world.

and we ARE kinda running out of copper in the sense that it's more expensive than in decades

Lucas
you are an idiot...believe what you want...I am putting you on the my clown list which are people I do not acknowledge.

Respond all you want to my posts I will not address you....good day

There's GL ...   taking his baseball and gettin' on home.

well, Obama's War on Coal just cost 13,000 workers and retirees a lot of their benefits by driving Patriot Coal out of business::

bloomberg.com/news/2013-…

Lucas B. says:
well, Obama's War on Coal just cost 13,000 workers and retirees a lot of their benefits by driving Patriot Coal out of business::
================
Obama is not even mentioned in that article.....it is more of an issue of how the company has more retirees getting pensions than they have workers mining coal....nice try but as usual....you are completely off you trolly

boy are you in denial.  Here's Obama in his own words.

youtube.com/watch?v=wF7Q…

he is talking about cap and trade you dweeb before he was even president!

cap and trade has not passed so that is not what is happening with the coal company you linked to

(the Obama quote in the above clip)
"if somebody wants to build a coal plant, they can -- it's just that it will BANKRUPT them, because they are going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."

that clip is a freakin sound bite

good night

at least he admits that it's genuine.

I wonder what Westhill Consulting Reviews has to say about all this?

LOL, Anything that compares Palin and Obama should be referenced with caution.

I think alot of coal's trouble as of now has more to do with their compatition, gas plants. However the EPA's final ruling about carbon emissions should be finalized this year. I don't plan on selling my gas stocks anytime soon.

you buy etp?

Nope I'm invested with small cap companies. I prefer ones that are working in the Haynesville shale which keeps lots of my friends and family in business. Lots of the gas stocks are paying serious dividends right now though if that is your thing. Plus if that EPA ruling pumps the breaks on coal it will mean big things for the gas industry.

Excuse me its a proposal not a ruling. You'll want to put this on you radar if you're thinking about investing in gas.

epa.gov/carbonpollutions…

It will be interesting, coal use is actually on the rise right now from last year.....but gas is way more cleaner and gas powered plants are way more efficient which is why I invested in ETP last year.

"The agency's proposal, which does not apply to plants currently operating"

so, they're making good on Biden's promise about "no clean coal".  Older and vastly more polluting bituminous coal plants will be exempt, but new cleaner coal plants will pay the penalty.  Nice.