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Notability

Greetings Jimbo. Happy Spring.

I'm curious if you think subjects like the following are notable. Do you think it's too difficuot to have them included in Wikipedia?

FloridaArmy (talk) 00:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo of course can speak for himself, but I think that the GNG language is very clear: A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. So, if you have identified several sources that meet that three part standard, then write the draft. If not, don't bother writing a draft because that is a waste of time in my opinion. I suggest that you leave such topics on your long term "to do" list. Cullen328 (talk) 01:44, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is this entry substantial coverage in a reliable independent source? Or this one? How about this one User:Cullen328? Those are among the cited sources for John Lewis Peyton. FloridaArmy (talk) 01:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FloridaArmy, the first is a specialist encyclopedia article, which I think that most editors would accept but consider a tertiary source. The second is a database entry. In my opinion, most editors do not consider such entries to constitute significant coverage. The third is a book published in 1868, shortly after the Civil War that it discusses. We have a strong preference for much more recent sources, especially when trying to establish notability. I have used book of that era for direct quotes or for uncontroversial biographical details, but not for trying to establish notability. Cullen328 (talk) 02:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What makes something a specialist encyclopedia User:Cullen328? I would think substantial coverage from William S. Powell, one of the premier historians of North Carolina (written in the 1990/ more than 100 years after Peyton's death) would be solid. What type of coverage are you lookong for and from whom? FloridaArmy (talk) 02:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A specialist encyclopedia is something like the Dictionary of North Carolina Biography, which strives to write up as many North Carolina people as possible. You ought to be familiar with the distinction between secondary sources and tertiary sources. I am not saying that it is an unacceptable source but rather a source with a bit of weakness. Cullen328 (talk) 06:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not going to do the huge job of analyzing 12 topics. But at first glance IMHO the majority would probably meet the defacto standard (e.g. survive AFD) for existence of an article in Wikipedia but the AFC standard is higher which does not pass edge cases. This is due to the structure combined with human nature. An AFC reviewer is not going to want to gamble their stamp of approval on an edge case. North8000 (talk) 02:39, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eek's assessment

Fleta, Alabama (Draft:Fleta, Alabama): If you want places approved, I highly suggest that you learn how to use infoboxes and specifically the GPS function. If an editor can't easily tell where the town is, that really complicates things. Further, it is unclear whether this is a ghost town or not. If its just some long gone ghost town, its rather unlikely to be notable.
Jack Clifford (actor) (Draft:Jack Clifford (actor)): its just a list of films. He looks like the 1920's equivalent of a direct-to-video star. What makes him stand out? If you can't say, he's probably not notable.
Capitol Park (Tuscaloosa, Alabama (Draft:Capitol Park (Tuscaloosa, Alabama)): probably notable, though I note it hasn't been reviewed yet. Jimbo's talk is not a review accelerator.
Post-Newsweek Production (Draft:Post-Newsweek Productions): not notable. Just one of millions of defunt companies that never achieved much.
Tachira Railway (Draft:Tachira Railway): not declined for notability reasons, but rather because your grammar was bad. Unfortunately, that seems to be a trend I'm noticing. I note that a sentence like "a map was sold of it" is...pretty bad writing, and also WP:TRIVIA. FA, you've been here at Jimbo talk repeatedly, and I understand your frustration. But if you're going to continue to focus on quantity over quality, you're gonna keep having the same issues. Consciously or not, when a draft is poorly written, reviewers are going to assume you don't know what you're doing, and it makes it that much harder to get approved. Focus on the details more.
Wendell Peters (Draft:Wendell Peters): You don't even have his birthday or death date. Beyond that, you have basically only primary sources: court cases that he was on. From what has been provided, this guy is no more important than every lawyer who has ever lived. In fact, it seems a bit unfair to him to create an article on him: his life seems to have gone kind of sour. Would you want your life memorialized like that for all time?
Henry Kernot (Draft:Henry Kernot): this guy is mildly interesting. But it looks like nobody has breathed a word of him in more than a century. If you could find some modern sources about him, maybe.
Don Noble (Draft:Don Noble): well from the sources you've provided, he's not notable. Its not the job of the reviewer to look for more sources. Perhaps he fits into one of the professor SNGs? Beyond that, I'm seeing a continued disconnect between you and GNG. I'm not sure what your hangup is. You need at least two, in-depth, quality sources that mention the subject at length, that are not written by the source or someone related. A short biography by the guy's employer does not and cannot fill that requirement.
Minnie T. Wright (Draft:Minnie T. Wright): wait for it to get reviewed.
Albert Henderson Wade Ross (Draft:Albert Henderson Wade Ross): this isn't even your draft, and also, wait for it to get reviewed.
William E. Shay (Draft:William E. Shay): having a picture is good. Having exactly one sentence about him, with no citations, is bad.
John Lewis Peyton (Draft:John Lewis Peyton): he might actually be notable. But the way you have written the article is exactly the reason you keep failing at AFC. You have an entire source (Yelton, 1989) discussing an amusing exploit from this guy's life. And you have pulled nothing from it. So a reviewer, at a glance, only sees an article about...a different dude, and assumes that you mistook him for someone else. Instead of an interesting sentence like "John Lewis Peyton was the source of numerous 19th century misconceptions about the mound builders, a group of indigenous peoples in the Americas.", and so on, you have nothing. Yelton 1989 gives you a goldmine! There is so much info about John Lewis Peyton's life in there: where he went to school, that he was a fellow of the Royal Geographical society no less! Plus, the article gives a very amusing story that would make an excellent DYK hook. But you have pulled out none of that, leaving not even the barebones of an article, and are then upset when a reviewer declines it.You can't expect the reviewers to do all the work for you.

In conclusion, yes I know I was a bit sassy, but please pay attention to the details. You can succeed, but its about quality over quantity. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 03:18, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eek, thank you for all that, it must have taken some significant time. I will myself try to look into a few of these but in general, I think your advice here is good. FloridaArmy, do you have access to a newspaper archive site? I do, I use newspaperarchive.com, and I find it very helpful for finding sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 89: / Line 89: @@
 *[[William E. Shay]] ([[Draft:William E. Shay]]): having a picture is good. Having exactly one sentence about him, with no citations, is bad.
 *[[John Lewis Peyton]] ([[Draft:John Lewis Peyton]]): he might actually be notable. But the way you have written the article is exactly the reason you keep failing at AFC. You have an entire source (Yelton, 1989) discussing an amusing exploit from this guy's life. And you have pulled nothing from it. So a reviewer, at a glance, only sees an article about...a different dude, and assumes that you mistook him for someone else. Instead of an interesting sentence like "John Lewis Peyton was the source of numerous 19th century misconceptions about the [[mound builders]], a group of indigenous peoples in the Americas.", and so on, you have nothing. Yelton 1989 gives you a goldmine! There is so much info about John Lewis Peyton's life in there: where he went to school, that he was a fellow of the Royal Geographical society no less! Plus, the article gives a very amusing story that would make an excellent DYK hook. But you have pulled out none of that, leaving not even the barebones of an article, and are then upset when a reviewer declines it.You can't expect the reviewers to do all the work for you.
 In conclusion, yes I know I was a bit sassy, but please pay attention to the details. You can succeed, but its about quality over quantity. [[User:CaptainEek|<b style="color:#6a1f7f">CaptainEek</b>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<i style="font-size:82%; color:#a479e5">Edits Ho Cap'n!</i>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 03:18, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
+:Eek, thank you for all that, it must have taken some significant time.  I will myself try to look into a few of these but in general, I think your advice here is good.  FloridaArmy, do you have access to a newspaper archive site?  I do, I use newspaperarchive.com, and I find it very helpful for finding sources.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 15:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)