Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration enforcement/Workshop

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

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GoldenRing's section

Despite being entirely uninvolved in this mess, I've added some proposals as I think many of the existing proposals are going the wrong way. The process doesn't need tinkering with, the presenting circumstances need dealing with.

Complicating this is the fact that the committee has pronounced, unwisely in my view, an amnesty to all involved. This should be rescinded if at all possible.

I can add evidence to the proposed findings of fact if required, but I hope it's all pretty obvious; the facts of the case are not disputed. Unusually, even which facts are relevant is not really in dispute. GoldenRing (talk) 23:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

You can't just rescind amnesty, that is not how amnesty works. Chillum 15:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, strictly speaking of course the committee can rescind amnesty. The reasons not to are not that the committee is bound in some way, but that doing so might rather tarnish the image of the committee. Nonetheless, I think that at the very least this case needs some hard findings of face that some editors acted improperly, even if sanctions are not available. Otherwise, we will end up here again very shortly. GoldenRing (talk) 00:28, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually, just clarifying the process and what is or is not an admin action will prevent a quick recurrence. We don't need to set up firing squads pour encourager les autres. GregJackP Boomer! 02:15, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

While I realise that question seems to be important to lots of people here, I'm not convinced it's the right one to be asking. I think the right question is not one about administrative actions but one about consensus: Is a community consensus expressed at AE binding on administrators or can they still act unilaterally even after a consensus on the matter has formed? GoldenRing (talk) 08:23, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I anticipate (or, to be more correct, I hope) that too will be tackled in the final decision. That said, the amnesty will not be rescinded. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 10:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I would echo Chillum's statement. If Arb was actually so foolish as to attempt to rescind amnesty (and I know they aren't), the streets would fill with angry villagers editors due to the principle. From a western legal perspective, you can't revoke amnesty once granted, or it wasn't amnesty to begin with. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Eric Corbett blocked per unrelated AE request

It should be noted somewhere (evidence, workshop, here, somewhere) that Eric Corbett (talk · contribs) was blocked today for one month by Keilana (talk · contribs) following an unrelated AE request. --B (talk) 00:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

It is turning into farce when someone with possibly the longest incivility block log currently still active has their block reduced to 72 hours due to 'process'. At this point anything involving Eric makes a mockery of civility on wikipedia. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Not the place to air opinions on the block. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:04, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

It does, however, speak once again to the process involved, where the discussion was closed after 2-1/2 hours. The only difference is that the first time those that wanted a block were unhappy with the time the discussion was open, and that this time the ones that did not want a block are unhappy. And there are two ways to look at it, first, if everyone's unhappy it must be working right, or second, if everybody's unhappy it must be real messed up. Y'alls call. GregJackP Boomer! 21:35, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

One of the issues being discussed on the Workshop page itself is the degree to which the decision here should be minimalist, or be more detailed, with respect to how to proceed in the event that the issues that led to the filing of this case continue after the present amnesty. We now know that they are continuing, and we now know (not that it should surprise anyone) that the community is arguing sharply about it. Clearly (just look at the blocked user's talk page), various members of the community have vehemently opposed opinions about the block, the process of the block, and the discussion that occurred at AE. Consequently, my suggestion to the drafting Arbs is that you recognize that the best way to help the community in this case is to spell things out very clearly, with respect to the ground rules for what, it seems, will inevitably be the next case here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

^^what Tryptofish said. GregJackP Boomer! 00:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Apologies if this is straying from the topic somewhat, but it's getting hard to see what rules can be laid down. It seems to me likely that the process around this latest episode has a natural, benign explanation; an editor who didn't want to expose themselves to opposition asked Kevin Gorman to file an AE request, and Kevin and Keilana are friends, tend to go places together and so Keilana saw the request and acted on it. But it's certainly easy to see how it has the appearance of skulduggery; an admin who's been gunning for Eric for a while sifts through Eric's contributions for anything mildly offensive, posts a request at AE and then pings his friend to come and do the enforcement, which by a 'mistake' just happens to be considerably longer than the actual sanction imposed allows. I'm not saying that's what happened (I don't think it is) but you can certainly see how, at a glance, it could have that appearance. With this level of mistrust in the community over straightforward sanction enforcement, what option is left but to reserve all enforcement regarding Eric Corbett to the committee? A job I'm sure they just can't wait to get started on... GoldenRing (talk) 00:34, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I can't speak for Keilana (I had not spoken to her for >24 hours at the time,) but I can confirm that I was asked to file an enforcement request by someone who saw Eric's quite clear violation of the probation, but did not want to expose themselves to the shit that reporting Eric would bring. And despite the fact that pretty much everyone agrees the comments were violations of Eric's probation, look at the amount of shit I've gotten for reporting it, over a number of pages. I am going to continue reporting Eric when he violates his AE sanctions, but how many people are going to be willing to report Eric for violating his sanctions? The answer is gonna be pretty low. Something - by arbcom - needs to be done. Kevin Gorman (talk) 03:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

So some other editor contacted you off-wiki in order for you to file an enforcement request? Are violating wiki-policies OK if it is intended to sanction an editor you don't like? If the community doesn't want to do something, that's known as consensus - so if the number of people willing to report EC is "pretty low" that could be an indication that the community doesn't want him sanctioned. GregJackP Boomer! 04:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

There's a reason why [[Category:Administrators willing to make difficult blocks]] (excuse me if I got the exact cat name wrong, but it's been forever, and the only point of that cat is quite similiar to what happpened here. People who file AE reports even against black and white violations of Eric's sanctions are themselves hounded for it. Right now, it doesn't matter if your small segment if the community doesn't want him blocked - it matters that he violated his black/whte restriction, I filed an AE, and someone else took the action prosribed by the committee under the circumstances. And if you'll look through our many contradictory policies, you'll find instances where anyone can contact anyone, anyone can contact an admin, any admin can contact another admin, where any admin can cntact any functonary, etc. Socialization is not an inherently bad thing, and in a situation where it lets one editor who can already barely edit content currently under this name take the heat cools down from prior stuff off of someone who can currently productively create content, then it improves the encyclopedia and I'm all for it. In a situation where an AE block has been upheld by a sitting arb, I don't think complaning I was canvassed is very productive. This will be my last contribution to this conversation unless something useful comes up. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Kevin...how about a mutual iban between you and Corbett?--MONGO 04:21, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

MONGO: iBans don't customarily apply to arb proceedings. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Or, what MONGO said. Kevin: I am going to continue reporting Eric when he violates his AE sanctions You really should stop. Eric is not a low-profile person; if he does something that needs attention, someone else will notice and it can be handled by someone without a clear history of repeatedly trying to sanction him and anyone who takes actions perceived to be in his favor (just for examples related to this case, see out-of-scope evidence, point 3 of my preliminary statement, talk page followup). You should effectively follow the terms of the original injunction and refrain from taking or initiating any administrative action with regard to Eric. The continued participation of involved users (some arguably, some unambiguously) as the self-appointed civility police is itself contributing to the disruption caused by the original incivility. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Notice how much shit I get every time I report Eric for reporting a clear violation on Eric's part Opabinia? I don't want to subject other users to the same degree of shit, and at the same time, want Eric to adhere to his remedies. And from past history, when others do report,they get the same treatment I do. If I see a clear violation on Eric's part (which is an exemption to even normal i-bans,) I will be bringing it to AE unless Arbcom takes over Eric enforcement directly themselves. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

"Getting shit" is a form of community feedback about your approach here, to which you seem unreceptive. Purportedly protecting others from shit is unnecessary self-martyrdom. If you don't do anything about a putative violation, and nobody else does either, which is a more likely explanation: a) every single other person on the wiki who saw the problem was too intimidated to do anything, or b) it wasn't actually much of a problem?

As for exemptions to ibans, that's why I like my formulation better. No enforcement, period. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

GoldenRing I think the committee sort of passed the buck when they decided to pass the discretion back the community even though it was clear that the community had already failed to deal with it which is why it ended up at arbcom. I think you make very good point about leaving enforcement to the committee. Without in any way prohibiting normal admin actions the sanctions themselves could be taken over by arbcom.

We are feeling the repercussions of pushing the problem down the road right now. While the community can often be relied upon to handle enforcements of arbcom decisions it seems in this case it would help a lot if they just took it out the community's hands and dealt with the matter with whatever clear criteria they wish to. The matter is simply too divisive, I am seeing good people on both sides and neither side is feeling good about the site at the end of the day. Chillum 03:18, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, be fair, that's a pretty standard enforcement provision. In fact, so standard that it's part of the standard 'Enforcement of restrictions' clause in decisions that doesn't need voting on.

What we're seeing here is not that dissimilar to what we saw at the height of the GamerGate ruckus; any admin who dares to enforce the remedies is immediately beset by hordes of editors telling them what a bad block it is - and this happened no matter which side of the debate the blockee was on. As someone who was near the centre of that storm, I'd be interested to hear if @HJ Mitchell: has any good ideas on enforcement of remedies that are disliked by a significant faction of editors. GoldenRing (talk) 04:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)