Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Terms of Use

For anyone that doesn't know, much of my work here is done as a paid editor that is sponsored by article-subjects. I disclose my conflict of interest on corresponding pages and rely heavily on the Talk page. To date I've created almost 40 Good Articles in this capacity. @Slimvirgin: has twice now asked me to disclose not just that I have a conflict of interest, but the actual name of the PR agency or client. She has correctly cited the Terms of Use, which not only require disclosure of the existence of a COI, but detailed information on any and all relevant affiliations.

I am concerned about this for four reasons:

1. My sponsor is a one-person PR agency and I feel this degree of disclosure violates their personal privacy
2. I don't see what possible use Wikipedians have for his/her name, since a COI is disclosed
3. Slimvirgin has focused her efforts on finding additional negative information to add to the page and is critical of my COI involvement/conduct. The situation is such that it feels a bit intimidating/threatening. For example, here she cited a source where all the information on Invisalign was positive, but she said the source indicated Invisalign had major issues.
4. If I start offering this information regularly, it becomes easier for someone to figure out my real-world identity

I raised my concerns about privacy and bullying when the new Terms of Use were created. My anonymity is important to me, because as a disclosed paid editor I am often targeted for harassment, etc.. At the time, a WMF staffer told me I should be fine, so long as a COI is disclosed and that nobody was going to bother me for more details. That seems to be challenged now.

Will I be blocked if I refuse to provide more information? Can anyone explain why the community would require me to disclose all of this? I know it's a complicated issue and appreciate your thoughtful input on the matter. This is very important to me. CorporateM (Talk) 01:50, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

If the Wikipedian cannot comply with the Terms of Use due to some special circumstance, it is the Wikipedian's responsibility to refrain from editing until such time as it is possible to remedy that circumstance, or until the relevant rule has been modified or amended. Deliberate violation of the clearly delineated Terms of Use should result in blocking the user's editorial privileges.166.173.248.141 (talk) 03:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I assume you read the FAQ? It seems that you do have to disclose your employer/client, or don't get paid for editing. On the other hand, the policy does not allow other editors to engage in outing, harassment, or other violations of policy.- MrX 02:07, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. That FAQ could do with a copyedit (Corp?). And in this case it may not be that helpful, since Corp doesn't work for Acme, but for Hip&Hype's PR firm, so on whose behalf is he supposed to claim to be editing? I'm inclined to say Acme, still, since that's the ultimate beneficiary of Corp's work here (and all the hours I've donated to his service)--which means he wouldn't be required to name the agency he's working for. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: I would say that the Terms of Use do require disclosure of the PR agency and the article-subject and my own business name, which would prohibit me from contributing anonymously entirely. However, as you indicated, I got the impression that this was just poor copyediting due to an overzealous response to Wiki-PR. I didn't think it was ever intended to be used against someone that has disclosed a conflict of interest.

Do you mean to say that my "thank yous" aren't payment enough for your time? ;-) CorporateM (Talk) 02:37, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: Yes the FAQ needs its own FAQ. Here's the salient sentence: "If you have been hired by a public relations firm to edit Wikipedia, you must disclose both the firm and the firm's client." - MrX 02:41, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• The way CorporateM has summarized this is disturbing. First, I haven't "focused [my] efforts on finding additional negative information to add to the page." I've pointed out to CM, as has Doc James, that a Cochrane report concluded that there is insufficient information available for them to reach a conclusion about Invisalign's efficacy. This is clearly stated in the review's conclusion.

That apart, CM has been hired by a PR firm to rewrite the article. He has completed, or almost completed, the rewrite, which he had two other editors add for him. He has not disclosed who he is working for, but the terms of use require this (see WP:PAYDISCLOSE:

As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.

I have asked CM to abide by the terms of use. This came to my attention, by the way, because he was edit-warring with Doc James. He ought not to be editing the article directly, and getting into battles with a medical expert on a health-related article is not a good idea. Sarah ^(talk) 02:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• The Terms of Use are fairly clear on this topic. CM is obligated to disclose the information he objects to disclosing if he wishes to edit for pay on Wikimedia projects (other than Commons and...I think maybe Russian Wikipedia? Something like that). The choice is to disclose or to not edit in a manner that requires disclosure; while I'm sympathetic to CM feeling put-upon by this, it's really not much to ask that the community be made aware of what, exactly, the relevant COI is if someone wants us to give them the extraordinary level of trust involved in letting them edit on behalf of article subjects. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 03:07, 18 August 2015 (UTC) ETA (to clarify): Employer, client, and affiliation can all be different, and thus be different COIs. If I work for PR Agency Y, which is hired by Social Media Company X, to run an ad campaign on behalf of Corporation Z, each step in that chain is relevant to the community's ability to evaluate my work for any COI about Y, X, or Z. Just saying "I have a COI" or "I work for PR Agency Y" or even "I'm editing on behalf of Z" doesn't give us enough information to figure out where all/any issues might be arising in the edits. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 03:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't see that there is anything unclear here. The ToU require that you disclose all three "employer, client, *and* affiliation" (my emphasis). Of course if there is only the employer involved, then all you need to declare is the employer, but the PR firm is involved in this - you are affiliated with them if you accept direction from them, or you direct them, or even if you just report to the employer together. "Affiliation" is a very broad term, and we must assume that the WMF put it in the ToU intentionally. We cannot change this rule or interpret this how we feel is "fairest." We must interpret it in the most straight-forward way. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:46, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to go in a slightly different direction. Our enforcement of the paid editing aspects of the ToU is erratic at best, and in practice I think the focus should be on keeping to the intent rather than the letter. We also need to balance privacy issues with disclosure. Personally, I'd be extremely happy to see clearly stated disclosures somewhere where people will actually see them, denoting that there is a paid editing COI and the nature of the COI, and if that was there I would care a lot less about knowing the client's name.

With that said, unless WP forms a clear policy on how to handle the ToU, it is going to be difficult to argue that people should enforce some aspects and not others. (Noting that it has proven hard enough to get a consistent idea on how it enforce it in the first place). - Bilby (talk) 04:40, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The Foundation's terms of use FAQ is clear about this issue: "If you have been hired by a public relations firm to edit Wikipedia, you must disclose both the firm and the firm's client." See m:Terms of use/FAQ on paid contributions without disclosure, point 1.8. Sarah ^(talk) 06:05, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I know the ToU backwards. :) My problem is that we are doing a poor job of implementing it, and the community has some radically different ideas (all the way to ArbCom) about how we should enforce it, if at all. In that scenario, I can't recommend that people ignore the ToU, but I'd like to at least be following the intent if we fail at the letter.

The question for us is how to balance our long-held principle of not requiring outing of editors and respecting their privacy, while still meeting our needs for disclosure of paid editing. I'm worried that people willing to do everything they can to meet the ToU while still retaining some privacy will get burnt, while those who ignore the ToU terms completely get away with no sanctions at all. - Bilby (talk) 07:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• Full disclosure required per SV, Fluffernutter and Smallbones. The TOU is straightforward and clear, and that it might interfere with a particular editor's particular situation is irrelevant. CorporateM, you brought this here despite knowing precisely what the TOU says, which implies that you're looking for a personal pass on the policy. I suggest that is inappropriate, that you disclose it all per the TOU, and return to what I am assured is your excellent work for the project. BMK (talk) 06:11, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• As above, really. I can only advise you that if you feel that revealing the client's name will in some way compromise them, that you decline the work. Guy (Help!) 09:40, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• Full disclosure can be, 'Subject's PR firm' I don't agree with several others. The Statement "If you have been hired by a public relations firm to edit Wikipedia, you must disclose both the firm and the firm's client." is fulfilled by specifically identifying the client and stating that you are hired by "their PR firm" - that "identifies the PR firm", sufficient to fulfill the TOU obligation. Fluffernutter, who I usually agree with is only correct that we would have to know the name of the PR firm, if the user is hired to edit the article on the PR firm. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:30, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• WRT the issue at hand full disclosure is required. They need to state both the PR firm and the subject paying the PR firm (some may have multiple PR firms working for them). Corporate's statements above raise additional concerns of competence and promotional editing. CorporateM states "she cited a source where all the information on Invisalign was positive" Now lets look at the conclusions of the source in question "this review has revealed that there was no evidence from RCTs to show that one intervention was superior to another". How is that a positive conclusion?

Corporate raises the concern of bullying as to why they should be exempt from the terms of use. As someone who has had 300 of their colleagues emailed by paid editors. And had tweets send to their university stating they should reprimand for their work on electronic cigarettes I sympathise. But Corporate your editing is not on your own behalf but on behalf of someone else. We the community deserve to know who is paying for your efforts so that we can appropriately address your edits. Our readers deserve to know aswell. Should CorporateM be banned from paid editing if they decide not to disclose? I would say yes.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:27, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

And if they are banned, then does that solve the problem? And by the problem, I mean, of bad apples doing paid editing without disclosing who is paying them the money. CorporateM is getting paid by TopicOfArticle, in most cases. That the money CorporateM is getting, comes via their employer the HypotheticalSmallPrFirm, is an additional factoid, sure. Do we also wish to know, as further additional factoids, what specific banking institution, is cutting the cheques here, since the money is quite literally in reality coming from the bank of the TopicOfTheArticle, and thence to the bank of HypotheticalSmallPrFirm, and thence to the bank of the editor known hereabouts as CorporateM? It is perfectly legal for wikipedia ToU to demand disclosure of the routing numbers, of all the connected bank accounts, although obviously it would not be ethical. The three banks ... or more or fewer as the case may be ... are just financial service organizations, and their legal names and physical addresses and routing numbers and other such factoids have no impact whatsoever, upon the nature of the COI editing under discussion here. The editing is COI, because TopicOfTheArticle is shelling out money, period.

    The reason to demand the disclosure of HypotheticalSmallPrFirm, one may presume, is on the suspicion -- without evidence -- that maybe just maybe CorporateM is sekritly organizing a meatpuppet army, and if we force disclosure of the HypotheticalSmallPrFirm, we can then easily find all of CorporateM's co-workers, since they also are forced to disclose! Brilliant! Insert sarcastic comment about how well that scheme will work in practice, to actually wiki-apprehend bad apples running meatpuppet-farms. That said, you most definitely are correct that if we are to force disclosure of the employer, the specific name of the employer is very much needed -- just saying something vague like "the PR firm hired by TopicOfTheArticle" is not enough to count as full disclosure, because in some cases there are more than one PR firm working with a given company, and more pertinently, over time there are almost certainly going to be multiple sequential PR firms working therewith. The question is, do we as wikipedians *need* to know the specific name (and from there the specific legal physical address via governmental filings that all corporations must file) of the HypotheticalSmallPrFirm which is the employer or CorporateM, or is it enough to know that the people paying the bills are TopicOfTheArticle, and the means with which those USD-or-Euro-equivalents are transmitted from the pockets of TopicOfTheArticle, to the pockets of CorporateM, are irrelevant? I suggest the latter, but the ToU as currently written requires the former. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• What material difference does it make whether we know the name of this PR firm, if we know that their work is being paid for by the subject of the article? I feel like we have an editor who is doing this the right way - as those good articles will attest - and we're shitting on them all the same. I don't dispute that the Terms of Use require full disclosure. Rather, I'm saying that in this case they are harming the encyclopedia by getting rid of what appears to be a good editor who is committed to following our policies and creating good content. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:06, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• Full disclosure required. How the heck is this even a question? It's the Terms of Use. It is the legal agreement you agree to follow in order to use the site. It says you need to disclose. Your options are disclose or leave. Pick one. If you have a problem with those being the only options, you should be talking to the legal team, not to miscellaneous Wikipedians who are not in any way, shape or form, as a group or individually, qualified to introduce exceptions to a legal policy. This is, honestly, baffling. Ironholds (talk) 13:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• I have my own COI here, because I offered to be CorporateM's mentor through WP:Cooperation several years ago. I did so because CM was completely transparent about his intentions and (uniquely) asked for guidance on how to do this ethically. While our mentor/mentee relationship has been completed, I still feel a sense of responsibility (sort of as an older brother) for his growth in the project. During our association, the user has consistently demonstrated willingness to follow 5P, policies and guidelines and when seeing a contradiction, has always asked for guidance from the community, as he has in this thread. He has found his own way on the tightrope called the bright line, and is widely respected because he has not abused the privilege. It could be reasonably argued that CM wears the whitest hat of all paid editors on Wikipedia. I say all this not for any special handling, but to give context to his request in this thread. BusterD (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC) Three issues here:

• 1. In a way, Wikipedia's (and the foundation's) rules for COI and paid editing have grown up around CorporateM. The ToU FAQ linked above is fifteen months old; CM has been editing in a paid capacity for much longer. His request here today (as noted by Bilby and Alanscottwalker above) is about balancing the ToU need for personal privacy with the ToU need for full disclosure. This is important not just to CM, but to Wikipedia. If the community makes it impossible for an honest COI editor to function under the ToU, then we're encouraging such editors to participate without full disclosure (as I suspect the vast majority of paid advocates usually do). BusterD (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think anyone is saying that CorporateM is a black hat or that he has bad intentions. But I also don't think the choice is between asking paid editors to disclose (and keep editing) or to lie to us (and keep editing). We can't stop paid editors lying to us, and I don't doubt that there are many doing so, but the ToU are in place so that if a paid editor does lie to us by failing to disclose the required information, we can revoke their ability to keep editing on that basis. That would be a loss to the project in CM's case, but the choice is the paid editor's: disclose, stop editing because you value your privacy more than your ability to accept money for edits, or don't disclose and know that when someone notices, you will lose your editing privileges and/or be restricted in some way (and thus lose at least some of your ability to accept money for edits). Either of the first two choices are entirely valid and I wouldn't blame anyone for making the second; the third choice is the road you go down if you decide you're not bound by the ToU we all agree to by using the site. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• I disclose a great deal more than Corprate does and I do not accept money for editing. It is not a high bar we are requesting they meet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:11, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• 2. There are many acceptable forms which balance the need for privacy with the need for disclosure. If I create a new alt account but wish to keep it off my user page for one legitimate reason or another, disclosing to a checkuser or arb is sufficient to stay within policy. When for whatever reason the foundation needs an editor to self-identify, we do it directly, not publicly. When we're dealing with BLP issues, an OTRS ticket is sufficient documentation the subject has given input. For copyright issues, an OTRS ticket can document permission from rights holders. In this case, I believe a disclosure statement (possibly through OTRS) stating complete information has been given to a responsible party (like ARBCOM or the WMF) could suffice to meet ToU. BusterD (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

"As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation. You must make that disclosure in at least one of the following ways: a statement on your user page, statement on the talk page accompanying any paid contributions, or a statement in the edit summary accompanying any paid contributions". "Telling arbcom" is not on that list; every single part of that list has one thing in common and that is that the disclosure is public. Ironholds (talk) 13:28, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• 3. As to the conflict between a paid editor and MEDRS issues, I'll decline to advocate CM's position. I've been wondering when such an issue would arise. It was inevitable some client would put the paid editor in a position where the company's need for precision conflicted with existing medical documentation. BusterD (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by "need for precision conflicted with existing medical documentation"? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for my delay in responding. I may have used imprecise language myself. I intended to say something along the lines of "the client's desired language versus the language used in independent peer-reviewed studies". BusterD (talk) 13:54, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

The official WMF FAQ says it is sufficient to say "I work for (company)" which makes sense, Asking for precise personal details about anyone is a violation of WP:OUTING as we all know. And if the WMF example is that straightforward, so the answer here should be. [1] " For example, before saving your edits to a Wikipedia article about your client, X, you may write this note in the edit summary box: "X has hired me to update their Wikipedia article" or "I work for X."" which clearly does not say that you need do more to identify what the exact COI might be.

The WP guideline states specifically: When investigating COI editing, be careful not to reveal the identity of editors against their wishes. Wikipedia's policy against harassment takes precedence over this guideline. Which emphasizes that editors cannot ask for any information which would be remotely connected to "outing" anyone. The WP specifies: Paid editors are required by the Wikimedia Foundation's terms of use to declare their conflict of interest, along with the name of their employer or client which also accords with the WMF example of saying "I work for X" as being sufficient.

Folks who try saying "you must tell me who you work for, where you work, what your exact job description is, who the client is" or the like are specifically and absolutely in violation of WP:OUTING as far as I can tell. Collect (talk) 13:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

What we are asking for is CorporateM to state who is paying him for the article Invisalign. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

He clearly identified the company as "Align Technology" in case you missed it. " have a conflict of interest with Invisalign in that I'll be working with Align Technology' and their PR agency to help improve the article " fully complies with the WMF FAQ statement - and was posted 9 January 2014. What more did you wish to have? Collect (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

The name of the PR firm was requested. I guess the question is is this one of the PR firms that has been banned from Wikipedia? And if so is them hiring CorporateM okay. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:05, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Where the FAQ contradicts the Terms of Use, it's likely that the TOU applies, not the FAQ. The FAQs are really shitty, but the Terms of Use are pretty unambiguous in that you need to specify employer and client, not employer or client. WilyD 14:35, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

There is a degree of irony here, in that we have thousands upon thousands of socks here who add articles all day long then disappear to create new socks to maintain, all without disclosure, yet we have CorpM, who has been been an good Wikipedian in many ways, contributing all over the place, not just where he is paid, and we enforce the rules on him and not the socks. This isn't intentional, but clearly the TOU is such that it encourages hit and run sockpuppetry and discourages occasional paid editing by worthwhile editors who really want to be a positive part of the community. I don't think anyone demanding disclosure is being unreasonable or acting outside of the TOU at all, but the TOU itself is fatally flawed in that it tempts editors, almost forcefully, to instead be bad members of the community instead of good. And now the shortsightedness (to which I've been an unwilling party to in the past, too many times) comes back to bite us yet again. Socking is very easy to do, and now we are tempting CorpM to become an expert at it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:39, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

(EC)It really is irrelevant unless you want to try to change this part of the ToU in the specified manner (e.g. notify WMF first that you are trying to modify the ToU). The ToU exist and trump all other policies, and we can only try to change them in a very specific manner (e.g. not here). I don't believe that the ToU contradict our policy on Outing (it's voluntary whether to be a paid editor after all, the ToU only state a few minimum requirements of what you have to do if you want to be a paid editor). But if the Outing policy and the ToU did contradict each other, the Outing policy would have to change.

Taken out of context, it might seem that the ToU causes some strange situations involving other rules. But I believe that the ToU are a rock. They stop some things head-on. They also might get in the way of doing certain things, but can be avoided with a bit of contortion. If the contortion seems bizarre, that is not the fault of the ToU, it is the fault of the contortionist. If people fail to follow our rules, that is not a reason to revoke the rules.

CorporateM now has a choice. He can follow the advice overwhelmingly given here, or he can stop paid editing, or he might even be able to go to WMF legal and request a waiver. (I do believe that the WMF has the power to give such a waiver, or at least to ignore what they consider petty violations of the ToU; but I don't think they would give a waiver in this case). Going to WMF legal works both ways of course. Any editor could go to WMF legal and request that the ToU be enforced in this case, which likely would result in CorpM backing down, or even being banned. I won't make such a request, but there's nothing we can do to stop somebody else from doing it. It's CorpM's choice. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:29, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Uh.... Smallbones, quite obviously the recent change to the ToU is causing CorporateM to be forced into a choice. That's not a "choice" in the language used on this particular enWiki website, unless you count Hobson's choice. But in fact, the most likely outcome is that CorporateM will be forced -- not by choice but by the newly-revised ToU -- into creating a Delaware-based holding corporation, which does not disclose investors, and which is legally the property of the one-person PR firm which actually employs CorporateM. Thenceforth, the human known here as CorporateM can say, with a straight face, that they are "an employee of PrivacyProtectionShimCorp, working for client NameOfThisArticle" ... all without ever revealing their real-life identity. If you think this is hypothetical, please be aware that I've seen this happen all the time in political situations: major megadonor wants to contribute to the campaign, but FEC requires all donations above $200 to include name of megadonor and name of megadonor's employer, so instead of donating directly to campaign in question, megadonor has their lawyers fill out the paperwork for a shell-corp, and then the donation is made in the name of said shell-corp. Similarly, many (and I mean MANY MANY) presidential campaigns use "nonprofit foundations" with no donor-disclosure requirements, as a loophole for skirting FEC regulations. Wikipedia's new ToU is encouraging socking, either in the traditional sense of using multiple usernames without disclosing the linkage between them, or more likely in my estimation, in the shell-corp-as-a-privacy-protection-sockpuppet sense. As was noted by Dennis Brown, the new WMF regulation is (much like the FEC regulation) simply going to punish the good apples like CorporateM, whilst the bad apples -- who already have sockfarms and already regularly violate the ToU and the five pillars with impunity -- could care less about the latest wiki-rule. 75.108.94.227 (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course, this whole discussion has one fatal flaw - this is a ToU issue, so it's up to the WMF to decide, nor for us lot. Ping User:Philippe (WMF) Mdann52 (talk) 15:11, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I do think that everybody would prefer that we take care of it ourselves. And we do have the power to enforce the WP:TOU since they are Wikipedia policy. Of course the WMF also has the power to enforce the ToU. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:32, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but we do not have the power to introduce an exemption, and that is what CorporateM is asking for. Ironholds (talk) 17:35, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• Full disclosure is required. According to the terms of use, this includes naming "employer, client, and affiliation". In the case at hand, the terms of use require CorporateM to disclose his employer (the PR firm in question), the client (which hired the PR firm), and his affiliation (as a paid editor). All three are required. The focus on "outing" is really misguided here. "Outing", in Wikipedia-speak, refers to the involuntary posting of personal information. In this case, it is completely voluntary for CorporateM to act as a paid editor. He can choose not to do so, in which case no personal information is required. Equating his ethical responsibility to disclose his employer with involuntary "outing" is just ridiculous.

  To be more blunt: if he's comfortable enough to cash a PR firm's checks, then he needs to be comfortable enough to disclose their name. Conversely, if he's not comfortable disclosing the name of his employer, then he can't edit Wikipedia on their behalf. This is not a major imposition, and in any case there is no Creator-endowed right to edit Wikipedia for pay while refusing to disclose the name of one's employer (quite the opposite). MastCell ^Talk 17:28, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment It would seem that full disclosure is required. However, it is not stated that this needs to be in public. Is it possible that {u|CorporateM}} could make such disclosure to WMF privately. Mjroots (talk) 05:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Full disclosure is required MastCell sums it up perfectly for me. -- Shudde ^talk 00:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Questionable editing by CorporateM

I have had issues with USer:CorporateM's editing over the last couple of weeks. This includes WP:Canvassing and attempts to brush over the best available evidence and replace it with expert opinion.

WRT canvassing

• Aug 8 5:33 CorporateM asks a single editor for "help" on a RfC I replied that while it is okay to notify an entire project, notifying a single editor is not kosher
• Aug 14 22:40 they did the same thing. They requested a single editor help them out and provided that editor with their prefered version of the article.

Their prefered version places the lower quality evidence first and leaves out / poorly presents the most recent systematic review. As canvassing was not effective they appear to next try to denigrate the best available evidence by covering it in tags.

• 04:12 Aug 15 CorporateM tags the most recent systematic review we were aware of and tagging the conclusions of the best available research as undue.
• On Aug 15 16:39 I removed these tags as they appear to be an attempt to denigrate the best available literature. While there are newer reviews, commented on, these are not systematic reviews.
• I questioned these tags on the talk page Aug 15, 16:42 [2] to which Corprate replied at 17:55 stating these tags were "annotation"
• Aug 15, 17:56 they tagged the review again
• Aug 15, 18:20 I removed these tags again and commented further on talk [3] All they needed to do was provide a newer systematic review.
• Instead on Aug 15, 18:26 they re added the tags and stopped responded on talk.

I left them a edit warring notice after which they started a 3RR which got the article protected.

P.S. I added the prior systematic review in Jan of 2015. We now have a new systematic review on pubmed which comes to the same conclusions as the last one "The quality level of the studies was not sufficient to draw any evidence-based conclusions." The prior issue should thus be solved. But the concern I have is one of behavior. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• Re: canvassing accusations. I replied on my talk page: "CorporateM works by asking editors to review and approve content he's suggested / written, so that he doesn't violate COI policies adding potentially promotional or problematic content by himself. I've reviewed many of his contributions these past years, and he has taken to directly asking me if the requested edits template is taking a long time (several months) or if something requires more than adding a single sentence. I don't find this canvassing, but rather asking for help to do something which our policies suggest he'd best avoid doing himself."

I read and review things he has requested I look at as a neutral party, and my previous interactions with him allow WP:APPNOTE exceptions ("On the user talk pages of concerned editors. ... Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)"; i.e. his possible COI areas). He asked me to write neutral content for the article ("I know it's a big ask, but I thought if you had some time to spend doing this last leg of the article, it would be a huge help to all parties involved.") similar to what I had done on a previous situation. That is all. It's not canvassing.

I refused to write said content not because of his COI (in fact, I didn't notice the link to User:CorporateM/Invisalign until now), but because I am uncomfortable writing about medical issues. I firmly believe that if editors interested in the article discuss things, they can work everything out. I have no comment on the appropriateness of reversions, on either side. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:17, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

This was discussed at the edit-warring board. The article said "As of 2005," whereas there were sources on the Talk page to say "As of 2014". I tagged "As of 2005" with a "needs updating" and mentioned on Talk that there were several sources that could be used to update this to "As of 2014". I'm sorry that I reverted, but I was very frustrated by Doc's extensive efforts to prevent me from even being able to communicate such a trivial issue and prevent any contributions from me that would alter the version he wrote.

Just to be clear nobody is contesting that the last systematic review was "inconclusive", but Doc's contributions make it sound like an alt-med article. A professional in a related field verified that dentists require a lower barrier of evidence than real medicine and the sources do say that Invisalign is proven effective for certain types of cases, but is less effective than braces in some other cases. Also, that review is ten years old. This is a product that relies heavily on computer technology and ten years ago people were using floppy drives still. I don't think it should be the only thing in the lead to summarize the entire body of medical literature.

There are literally only three MEDRS sources published in the last five years, per WP:MEDDATE. If anyone wants to get involved in the article itself, I'd really encourage you to take a look at those sources. Since there are literally just three sources, it wouldn't be hard to just read three articles, add their contents to the article and get a sense of what's representative of all three. CorporateM (Talk) 16:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

References

So you are stating that dentistry does not need to follow "evidence based" science? That when a systematic review concludes that there is no high quality evidence to support something, because that something is dentistry it is no longer significant and we should just include what "expert opinion" has claimed?

Alt med practitioners have also argued that they should not be held to evidence based standards but I disagree with you that the majority of dental practitioners would make this request for their profession. Some dental measures are supported by the highest quality evidence such as powered toothbrushes.[4] Stating when a measure does not have high level support is something we do equally for medical, dental and alt med topics. Just because something does not have high level support does not mean that we should not do it. But we should at least know it does not have high level evidence supporting it when we do.

Corporate is attempting to misuse WP:MEDDATE. In a poorly research areas such as this we still include older high quality sources. We specifically say "A newer source which is of lower quality does not necessarily supersede an older source of higher quality."Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:27, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I believe if someone compares the recent medical literature to the article they would find that the article needs further expansion to meet GA requirements for comprehension and is unfair. I want to encourage people to actually read the sources and make bold edits. We need more editors to get involved in the article in a sustained and in-depth manner. I don't oppose the inclusion of the 2005 item, which is mentioned in current medical literature from 2014 (hence "As of 2014" rather than "As of 2005"). I disagree with it being the only thing included to the exclusion of all else. I don't think the sources require a medical professional to interpret. CorporateM (Talk) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

CorporateM, what are your medical credentials? Doc James is a doctor and a long-standing contributor to our medicine articles. I think you might do yourself a favour by taking on board the Doc's comments, because he (unlike you) does not actually have a dog in this fight. Guy (Help!) 16:46, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

He has a very strong opinion about paid editing and most of his editing on this page appears to be driven by that. Again, I want to encourage folks to read the sources and edit boldly! There is so much emphasis on wanting to prove that paid editing is bad or this myth that I'm trying to censor the 2005 item. I want to encourage editors as strongly as I possibly could to just read the sources. Please read the sources! Read them! Please!

Edit boldly, add their information objectively and completely. Then from your opinion after reading the sources for yourself. This shouldn't be a competition for whos reputation is better than the other. CorporateM (Talk) 17:04, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Before this recent interaction I did not really have an opinion on disclosed paid editing. Your attempts to dissuade me from editing the article are not appreciated.[5]

That you state that "most of his editing on this page appears to be driven" by his position on paid editing is bollocks. In my initially edits I added a Cochrane review that was missing. I added the most recent systematic review at that time. I added a 2014 review of the literature. At the same time I removed a bunch of primary sources. This is what I do on thousands of articles. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

For reference all the MEDRS sources published in the last five years are here:

• Y, Yu; Al., Et (November 9, 2012). "Interventions for managing relapse of the lower front teeth after orthodontic treatment. - PubMed". NCBI. Retrieved August 10, 2015.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)
• Malik, Ovals; McMullin, Allbhe; Waring, David (April 2013). "Invisible Orthodontics Part 1: Invisalign" (PDF). Dental Update. PMID 23767109.
• Kuncio, DA (March 2014). "Invisalign: current guidelines for effective treatment" (PDF). The New York state dental journal. 80 (2): 11–4. PMID 24851387.

I can also provide some older ones, if you feel there is not enough current medical literature and we need to dig older. CorporateM (Talk) 17:08, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

CM, you're representing yourself here as the only neutral person, when the opposite is true. There are competence issues – understanding certain terms, how to read medical papers, how to use MEDRS, etc. Doc James is trying to make sure the article reflects the high-quality sources. Sarah ^(talk) 17:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I just do not get it. I mentioned a new systematic review that come out in 2014 above and yet CorporateM still claims their are only three reviews? The have ignored my explanation of the difference between a literature review and a systematic review. I have brought up his misuse of WP:MEDDATE which others commented on here and yet they continue just as before. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:30, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• Leaving aside the issues of sourcing, I'm shocked by the spectacle of CorporateM repeatedly reverting Doc James on an article where CorporateM has a financial conflict of interest. According to our guidelines, he should not be editing the article at all, much less revert-warring with an unpaid volunteer. I would have blocked CorporateM if I had seen this happening in real time, and for the avoidance of doubt, I will block him the next time I see something like this happen. It's completely unacceptable. MastCell ^Talk 17:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Citation for "should not be editing the article at all", please. Even WP:NOPAY says "you are very strongly discouraged from editing affected articles where those external relationships could reasonably be said to undermine your ability to remain neutral", not "you are forbidden from ...". — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:17, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

All three of these sources are currently used in the article and nobody has contested their MEDRS compliance. Though someone reading them may have to look up a term or two, they are easy to understand. @MastCell: Please accept my apologies for edit-warring. I was very frustrated by the situation. I will not do it again. It was my understanding that the benefit of COI compliance was AGF, which I did not receive. CorporateM (Talk) 17:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• I have long had the same concern as Doc James about CorporateM's practice of asking individual editors to review proposed edits. The way this goes is, a request is made, and sometimes an editor decides to implement the proposed edit -- and sometimes the editor decides not to implement the proposed edit. The result is that if CorporateM asks enough editors, eventually he finds someone willing to implement the proposed edit. This business of asking for favours really needs to stop. Form consensus via discussion on the article talk page, and if consensus is present then CorporateM can use the request-edit template. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• Another issue that has concerned me is mixing volunteer and paid roles. I've seen CM begin work on an article as a volunteer, make edits of interest to the subject (reverting their COI edits or making edits that they like), then come into contact with the subject off-wiki and start editing on their behalf for pay. This is a difficult practice to negotiate ethically. I would like to see CM not accept a paid role once he has worked on an article as a volunteer. Sarah ^(talk) 18:17, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

WMF's position

@Mdann52: said "this is a ToU issue, so it's up to the WMF to decide, nor for us lot. Ping User:Philippe". I pinged Philippe right after starting this string and I hope they will chime in. It is also my understanding that it is not clear whether it is the community's or WMF's responsibility to enforce the Terms of Use. It is the Terms of Use and not a community policy, but it is often brought up as a factor in block discussions. CorporateM (Talk) 16:19, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Response left on Philippe's talk page by Jacob Rogers. Probably not the answer you were hoping for, CorporateM. And sadly, I think the answer will result in more and more paid editors using socks and deceptive techniques. Ravensfire (talk) 17:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Jrogers (WMF) has confirmed that "the Terms of Use are pretty clear on this one. You need to disclose your 'employer, client, and affiliation.' If those three things are different (say you are employed by PR company X, your client is person Y, and you are affiliated with company Z) you would need to disclose all three." [6] Sarah ^(talk) 17:57, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I do not buy the arguement that we should not require proper discloser because if we do people will simply sock. One could apply this sort of rational to all sorts of rules. For example why disallow socking when we have no mechanism to prevent it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:01, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say to ignore TOU (and clearly so), I said that increased socking is surely one of the outcomes, whether we like it or not, as it makes it more difficult to be a COI editor in a legitimate way. I'm no doctor, but I've gone 1500 SPI blocks behind me, including 300 in one case alone having to do with with paid editing. The reaction by those with power was enough to make me stop working the cases altogether. We can demand all we want, but it is foolish to pretend there is no negative consequences from the policy, just as it is foolish to think the Foundation really cares about COI socking. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:12, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Dennis Brown yes agree there is a concern of increased socking. And yes we do have a fair number of paid editors that use through away accounts to write promotional articles. Do we know how many legitimate COI editors we have? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:19, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is a template of some kind that they can use, or would use, so to be honest, I don't think we know how many declared paid editors we have with any precision. The same with socks. I'm conservatively guessing 20k accounts created, but that is probably too low by a mile. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is the end of the line on this question. The community certainly can help enforce Wikipedia policies, and there is no question that WP:TOU are policy. Corp has gone over our heads on this (which is his right) and the answer has come back the same. It's time to invoke WP:PAYTALK and end this. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:03, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

If we are going to enforce this, so be it. But more problem is that if we create an environment where it is far more favourable to engage in covert paid editing than it is to try to work within the ToU, we create a situation where we have no hope of ever managing paid editing. Prohibition on its own doesn't work. Control should have been the target. - Bilby (talk) 23:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Control-rather-than-prohibition is the point of the disclosure requirement (at least to my interpretation): we can't stop you from paid editing, and we're not necessarily seeking to ban paid editing, but if you're going to edit for pay, we require you provide us with enough information to neutrally evaluate your paid edits when you make them. If you follow this requirement, your company can send (competent) paid editors to your article and know they're not doing anything wrong. If you don't follow this requirement, your employee will find themselves blocked and you will find yourself with PR disaster on your hands. There's very little potential loss in disclosing a paid editing COI - sure, your edits might get reverted if they're bad quality, but they're just about as likely to be reverted anyway if you fly under the radar, because our patrollers are like that - and a lot of potential loss in being caught not disclosing one. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 00:07, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

It should absolutely be that way. But no one has adequately explained why the identity of the PR Firm acting as a go-between is relevant, when the fact that the subject is paying the editor for their work is fully and explicitly acknowledged. That is the disclosure that seems most important, and it does not appear to have been lacking here. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:25, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

How do we know if it's irrelevant, if we don't know what the other company/s involved in this is/are? We can't fully evaluate the content he (or any paid editor) is working on to see whether it's neutral with regard to the people paying him to do it if we don't know who the people paying him to do it are. Quite possibly it's irrelevant in this case and nothing CM has done has anything to do with, let's call it Jane Doe, Inc. who's the connection between places like Invisilign and him. But until we have that disclosure, we simply have no way to know if that's the case or not, so we need paid editors to disclose these connections so we're able to identify the cases where it does turn out to be relevant. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:28, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed solution

Hi All. It does seem clear that the Terms of Use do require disclosure of personally identifiable information and that this was the actual intention of WMF's policy. For the moment, I'm leaning somewhat towards the following plan of action:

• I will update the agreement I have with clients to include that they must be comfortable with their personal information being known and they accept the risk of being harassed or trolled as a result
• I will stop all volunteer editing on company pages or articles where there are commercial interests, so as to avoid the threat of being sued, doxed, harassed, etc. by those companies
• I will speak with my contact in this case about ending our relationship, so as to avoid the requirement and protect them from harassment. Also, because my ongoing participation doesn't seem terribly useful at this point.
• I will disclose more in the future

I'm sorry that this caused a lot of frustration for a lot of people. I'm disappointed that the community feels that information like the real names of people is important in making editorial decisions. I'm especially surprised that there has been so much resistance to using anonymous data like device IDs, IP addresses and analytics to expose sock networks due to privacy concerns, yet I am being asked to disclose real names that expose that individual to a high probability of heckling. We need to work hard to protect Wikipedia's founding principles and anonymity is one of them - eroding these principles is the real way paid editors are damaging Wikipedia.

While I may not like the outcome, I appreciate everyone's time thoughtfully discussing this important issue and accept the result. CorporateM (Talk) 18:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'd like you to be explicit about what you considering disclosing "more" to mean. "More" isn't really the word I would have picked here so much as "everything the ToU require me to disclose", since "more" implies "more than before...but maybe not all". Your agreements with your clients are your business, and you can word it to them however you like, but I would also point out that we're asking you to disclose the names of companies, not, like, stockholders' home addresses. If you work for "Joe RealName, Inc.", then yeah, I guess that technically requires disclosing their personal information, but generally we're looking for "I work for XYZ PR Agency, on behalf of MegaCorp Y", not "here's my bloodtype and mother's maiden name." And again, the agreement here is that if you wish to be given extra trust by the community and allowed to profit off of its work, then you are required to make those disclosures. If you don't wish to profit off the projects, then you're free to be 100% as anonymous as you wish to be. Similarly, companies that sponsor paid editors must decide whether it's more important to them to tweak content to their liking and have disclosed paid editing associated with their articles, or to stay hands-off with content and remain unassociated with Wikipedia editors. Both are ok, but it's their choice they will need to make. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:01, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm confused about these references to outing. Align Technology, which makes Invisalign, is a large company. It employs a PR firm. That firm has hired you to rewrite the article. This is business, and you're a PR professional who has written off-wiki about your paid work on Wikipedia. Why would naming the PR firms that pay you entail outing someone? Sarah ^(talk) 18:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, the PR firm is just a single person. Given the contentious nature of the discussion, I believe there is a high probability of her being harassed/trolled off-wiki if disclosed. The whole "big company" thing is a big misnomer. I am also just a single person that does paid editing part-time. I'm a real human being and so is she. CorporateM (Talk) 19:04, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Forgive the statement of the obvious, but why can someone who wants to know the PR firm not find out for themselves? It took me all of fifteen seconds on Google to find out who the PR firm in question is. I don't understand the need for secrecy here. ‑ iridescent 19:34, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

CorporateM, if someone has set up a one-person PR agency and called it "John Smith Ltd," that was their choice. There's no evidence that supplying the firm's name would lead to harassment, and disclosure has been required for over a year. Also, you're writing as though you're a Wikipedian who does some occasional paid work, but you're a PR professional and have always been here as a paid editor. If some of the firms who hire you prefer not to be named, the solution is not to take the work from those companies. Sarah ^(talk) 19:53, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course there's no evidence of that. Evaluating the claim would require disclosing the name of the firm, which is precisely what they are trying to avoid - because that would OUT at least the editor and the firm's principal. And, quite frankly, given some of the comments here? No, I don't think that off-wiki harassment is an unreasonable thing to fear. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:57, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea what is being claimed here. Some of the PR firms that Invisalign has worked with can be found on Google. They are established companies. CM naming the PR firm that hired him is not going to out CM. Sarah ^(talk) 20:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

How would you know? As per below, the company name might be enough to do it. But even if not, it's trivial in many countries to determine who a company's principals are, directors or shareholders or President or whoever. And just like that, his real name and address will show up on some BADSITE and he's outed. It might not be enough of a concern to warrant changes to the Terms of Use, or to policy in other ways, but to say it's not a concern is laughable and offensive. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:30, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I think this misses the point. If his top priority is to avoid being "outed", then he shouldn't be accepting paid editing jobs. If someone is willing to cash a PR agency's check to edit here, then they should be willing to disclose the name of that PR agency. You can't edit for pay and then stand on anonymity to avoid meeting the disclosure requirements. That's a perversion of this site's commitment to anonymity, which was never intended to protect undisclosed paid editing by PR employees. MastCell ^Talk 18:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps I was being dense. I saw an editor who disclosed that there was a conflict and seemed, largely, to be doing things the right way (relying on talk ages, etc). I don't get why the name of the PR firm matters at all - the conflict of interest is the subject's, not the go-between. This editor accepted the work and made a good faith effort to comply with their understanding of policy - an understanding that seems to have been flawed, if the consensus here is as clear as it seems. If we intend to require paid editors to reveal their true identities, and thus open themselves up to all of the off-site harassment that our esteemed community is famous for, then we need to be clear about that. Or just ban paid editing, which will not actually end it but just relegate it to editors who can sock effectively, who can be subtle about their edits and avoid suspicion, and who can keep their fucking mouths shut. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:17, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Per "so much resistance to using anonymous data like device IDs, IP addresses and analytics to expose sock networks due to privacy concerns" I was not aware there was that much resistance to this. Is this not what checkusers do? Our primary goal here is to write a neutral encyclopdia. We must balance privacy against information required to effectively write said encyclopdia. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• "Disclose more" is not specific. The Terms of Use are clear on what you are required to disclose. Either agree that you will disclose that - specifically that, not "more than you currently do" - or this is not a proposed solution. Let me be clear, here; anything other than what the ToU requires is an exemption to the ToU. The community is not qualified nor permitted to grant you that exception. If "more" violates the ToU it's against reason and isn't satisfactory. Ironholds (talk) 19:31, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@ CorporateM. When one finds one is trying to swim up hill against a down flowing river of thick (and well thought out) treacle – it could mean, that one is attempting to perform one's PR on the wrong sort of blog. Wikipedia articles - are not the drones you are looking for advertorials.--Aspro (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand the community's position and would like to volunteer to topic ban myself from the Invisalign page. I have also disclosed my real-name and business name on my user page in order to better comply with the Terms of Use and discontinued my financial relationship related to this topic. I also voluntarily accept a topic ban on volunteer editing on any pages that involve a commercial interest in order to address Sarah's concerns about my dual roles as a volunteer and COI contributor and my own concerns about editing company pages from a disclosed account. I promise to follow the letter of the Terms of Use in the future, including disclosing the real names of any people or organizations involved and to be more cautious of WP:COI. I appreciate the thoughtful discussion on this issue. CorporateM (Talk) 21:47, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

CorporateM, just to be clear, no one has requested real names. The requirement is that you disclose the name of the PR company that hired you and its client. That will usually be Acme PR and the name of the company the article is about. It will only be in less common cases where no companies are involved that a real name might be exposed, but if you make this clear to the client in advance, it shouldn't be a problem. Sarah ^(talk) 22:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand how a voluntary topic ban from a single article solves the problem, endorsed by the community and confirmed by the WMF, that you have to fully disclose the name of the PR firm as well as the company. You've already edited the article on their behalf, so how does an ex post facto ban fulfill these requirements? Plus, I'm not sure that you're taking on board that you must disclose the information all the time, for every article you are paid to write or edit. Finally, I believe that what you're asking for is essentially an exemption, and the WMF has clearly stated above that we, the community, cannot give you an exemption, only they can. Given all this, I do not see how your suggestion can conceivably be tenable. BMK (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm concerned that CorporateM seems to have gotten a takeaway from this conversation that's very different than what (I think) people were actually saying. He's edited his userpage to say "In August 2015, there was consensus at ANI that Wikipedia's Terms of Use prohibit a sponsored editor from contributing anonymously and I was required to disclose personally identifiable information.". That's...not what this discussion, or the WMF, have concluded. A paid editor needn't disclose their name or other such "personally identifiable information"; what they're required to do is disclose who's paying for the edits they're making, all along the line. I'm actually concerned now that, because CM is so active in paid editing-related discussions, new paid editors are going to look him up, read his interpretation of this discussion on his userpage, and think that they do need to disclose their name, address, or whatever. As an oversighter, I'd rather not have to clean up after that mess. CorporateM, would you please consider re-wording what you've added to your userpage today to make it clear that editors are not required to disclose their own personal details, but rather the "corporate" details of those paying for the edits? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, CM. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

The only way that CorporateM's userpage statement can be made to jibe with this discussion is if the one-man PR operation he is attempting very strenuously not to disclose the name of is his own, and bears his name - thus disclosing it would be outing himself. If that is so, then it was exceedingly stupid of him to name his agency after himself, but that deed is sone, and the name needs to be disclosed nevertheless, per WMF, TOU, and the consensus of this discussion. BMK (talk) 02:24, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Not sure why you think the company would need to be named after CorporateM. In a number of countries open record laws mean it's often possible to find out who's a shareholder or director of even small businesses. It's sometimes possible to use various mechanisms to try and set up a company with no public connection to you, even in such countries, but while some people may have good reasons for doing so, more commonly it's actually a sign the person is up to no good, so the lack of such isn't particularly surprising. Even without the use of public records, it's fairly common for someone to disclose they are the owner of a certain business in circumstances where it's expected (like when they're looking for clients). And again, companies which don't do so will often be viewed suspiciously. Now the info which may completely out CorporateM wouldn't be on wikipedia, so anyone mentioning it here should be blocked for outing, but it's not clear CorporateM was referring to that. Nil Einne (talk) 05:03, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, CM has said that there are three companies involved in this: Align Technology, which makes Invisalign; a PR firm hired by Align Technology, which CM says is a one-woman operation; and CM's PR firm. He says that his own PR firm was hired by the one-woman company, but he won't name it, so we don't know who paid CM to have Invisalign rewritten or why they wanted the rewrite. The question now is what to do with the article. Sarah ^(talk) 17:44, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

So that CorporateM doesn’t lead unpaid WP editors into becoming unpaid PR consultants for his client, we should just delete all his edits and let him start a fresh. He created this issue. As a self proclaimed professional, he should at least familiarised himself with our T&C first and not leave us with the problem of sorting it out for him. --Aspro (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

It would be far safer to delete every article he has ever edited. Best to be sure. Don't forget the siteban. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Extremely opposedto nuking-from-orbit-type suggestions. Although there have been some specific problems mentioned about specific edits on specific articles, I don't believe that the consensus here is for anything as extreme as deleting all of CM's edits, or for site banning him. Just the opposite, in fact, I see a lot of people talking about the good CM has done for the encyclopedia in his non-paid edits, and, in general, about the quality of his paid editing, especially compared to the dreck we get from some PR reps. So radical solutions wouldn't seem to be the answer. However, CM still must follow the terms of use, and if he refuses to do so, an indef block (which I presume would come from WMF, since it's their rule) would be appropriate until he agrees to do so.
  What I am confused by (once again) is why CM's response to this brouhaha was (at least as of this morning when I read his userpage) to out his RL name (which makes it child's play to find his personal PR website) and withdraw from voluntary (i.e. non-paid) editing of the encyclopedia, since this "solution" has solved nothing. If CM continues to get paid for editing he's going to have top disclose all the company names involved, and since he has (in effect) outed his own company name, and the name of the one-woman PR firm takes mere minutes to find online (so one wonders why he was so adamant about protecting it, and his userpage statement seems to be saying that he was protecting the name of his own firm), so what CM has done doesn't appear to me to be a step forward at all -- or else I'm totally misunderstanding what his intention is. BMK (talk) 22:50, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken, the only firm I'm aware of that has done PR for Align Technology is Gold PR, but that's not a one-woman company. [7] Sarah ^(talk) 01:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Slim Virgin look at this page or this or this or this or a number of other pages and you'll see Ethos Commnications Inc. of Duluth, Georgia. BMK (talk) 01:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Well his website is linked from his userpage, so it's not like you have to search to find it. Reading his userpage more carefully, unless I misunderstood, the reason why he doesn't want to continue voluntary editing on certain pages (not the entire encyclopaedia) is because he feels without the protection of anonymity, he risks too much effect on his real life from his voluntary efforts. (And once he disclosed the company name, the nature of the company meant his real name would be known, so there was little point hiding it.) So from his POV, it does solve something, it removes the, in his opinion, excessive risk he'll be harmed solely due to voluntary efforts. He may still have some degree of risk due to his paid work, I presume he's willing to accept that risk as an expected part of his job. Similarly, the risk for other areas is I presume in his opinion low enough that he's willing to accept it. As for his failure to disclose the PR firm/s who hired him on behalf of other companies in the past, I do agree it's up to the WMF to decide whether they want to ban him for it. Perhaps they will, perhaps they'll feel given the apparent misunderstanding of the requirement, according to him partially a result of some previous communication with the WMF, and his existing partial disclosure, they'll let it be provided he practices full disclosure from now on. If they chose the later, and the community here accepts that, then it seems we have a solution, perhaps not a happy one for many, but sufficient. Nil Einne (talk) 05:18, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• CorporateM, I appreciate that you are a good guy trying to do the right thing. So was Greg Kohs, but that's another story for another day. What the TOU seeks is transparency with respect to paid editing. So, yeah, who are you, who is she, and let uninvolved editors (who are not assholes trying to drum paid editing out of existence — take a number if this applies to you) review your work dispassionately to make sure that no spam has been committed. Does it increase risk of reprisal by said assholes? Yes, sadly — let us deal with them if problems arise. But the rules are very simple: disclose fully, openly, honestly. best, —Tim Davenport, 5010 NW Shasta, Corvallis, OR 97330 /// 541-745-7862 //// Carrite (talk) 00:12, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the problem is we actually have really little ability to actual deal with them. We aren't some sort of criminal gang in a lawless country who can kill anyone who does something we don't like. All we can really do is ban the stuff from here (which doesn't help when it's elsewhere), offer legal support (which doesn't negate most of the negative effects on your life whatever it is has) and express sympathy (see earlier). Different people may have different tolerances and perceptions of these risks. It seems CorporateM is willing to disclose the info, albeit with reductions in voluntary work given their perception of the risks that come from such work without anonymity. However they're still reluctant to disclose the PR firms that hired them to work on behalf of the disclosed companies. I presume this is because they're reluctant to expose these people to the possible risks of such disclosures (which frankly we have even less ability to affect), when then weren't made aware that this would be happening when they initially hired CorporateM's firm (unlike future firms who will be made aware). If this doesn't change, the WMF should decide if this is acceptable. I think most of us agree that CM and any firms hiring him should have paid more attention to the TOS, but that still leaves open the question of what to do now. Nil Einne (talk) 05:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

For some of the folks puzzled by CM not retroactively disclosing the name of some of the PR firms involved, this may be outside of the realm of their personal experience, but it is very likely that this is due to contractual terms he had signed with his clients including confidentiality requirements. Which means that if he's trying to do the right thing, he's currently talking to them to rectify the situation in order to comply. That takes time. The random assorted ANI crowd is ill-equipped to handle this, which should be, at this point, a WMF matter. MLauba ^(Talk) 09:00, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

As an aside, if there's any way we could become a lawless gang who can kill anyone who does something we don't like, I'd be all for that‍—‌with appropriate policies and guidelines in place, of course. EEng (talk) 06:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

@Carrite: I disagree that Kohs was a good guy trying to do the right thing. He saw Wikipedia and his first thought appears to have been: "how can I make money from this". I do not think CorporateM is the same. Apart fomr anythign else, I don't see CorporateM trying to get the project's charitable status revoked if he doesn't get what he wants. I do not see the two as similar. Guy (Help!) 00:49, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

If you actually do the digging, Greg came up with the idea of paid editing — taking money to help those not capable or not willing to navigate the markup language or the culture to establish pages — and was rewarded for his efforts to find out how to do things the right way with a ban at the hands of Jimmy Wales himself. This has evolved into a Hatfields v. McCoys feud with JW that has lasted for going on a decade and will finally end when one of them eats one too many corndogs and croaks it. It was a lost opportunity. Kohs back then and CorporateM now are exactly the same in the way they are trying to do the right thing and bumping into immovable objects in the process. Of course, Kohs has been driven underground — those who think he doesn't edit at WP are idiots. He does and you don't notice because he minds things like sourcing and NPOV. As long as we have instant accounts for anyone with a click of the fingers, this is always going to be an option for paid editors who want to do the right thing but can't because of the blinkered dipshits who want to drive paid editing away with a stick. News flash: you can either be reasonable and negotiate content with declared paid editors or they will move underground and you won't have the opportunity to negotiate. You wanna change that world? End IP editing and make registration at least a little difficult — I'm on that train. Until then: a little reality, please. Kohs is a good guy. I like him. Carrite (talk) 02:15, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Corporate should not be forced to identify his employer - you say the issue is he is editing on behalf of someone else so therefore he must disclose who that is. Why? People who edit on behalf of themselves do not have to tell you who they are or what their motives are, so what difference does it make? As long as he discloses a conflict of interest on that subject, his employer and the company that hired are worthless. Demanding this information as policy is only going to result with paid editors who, unlike Corporate, do not ever reveal a COI. Is that what you want? Be realistic. —Мандичка^YO 😜 12:07, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oh for goodness sake, your argument is silly. Read the TOU, please. BMK (talk) 18:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• The TOU are laughable. Say I'm a paid editor. I will disclose I work for Acme Public Relations and we were hired by John Smith and Jane Doe. There you go. It's bullshit but I've now complied with the TOU! —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Closure

CorporateM appears to have recused himself from Invisalign (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I propose that the community endorse this voluntary topic ban, which I see as gentlemanly conduct, thus this issue is closed.

• Proposed. Guy (Help!) 01:00, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Well, there's nothing wrong with his having recused himself from future edits, except that it doesn't solve the problem which he himself raised at the start of the thread, and he still hasn't done the required full disclosure for the edits on the article he's already done. Given that, I'm not sure that closure is where we're at. CM brought his question here hoping for one answer, got another he didn't want, and then "solved" the problem by actions which do not appear to have fulfilled the requirements of that answer. I'm confused by that, and would like to hear more from him as to what the rationale for his "solution" is, and what he plans to do going forward. I'm not denigrating his contributions to the project, nor am I accusing him of anything nefarious, I simply do not understand why he did what he did, and why he isn't doing what seems (at least to me) to be the clear requirement for an editor in his position. BMK (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

  I simply do not understand why he did what he did, and why he isn't doing what seems (at least to me) to be the clear requirement for an editor in his position - most probably because he is bound by contractual terms that prevent him from doing so, which would mean he needs time to amend those with his clients, and may not be at liberty to discuss it with the ANI peanut gallery until it is done. MLauba ^(Talk) 17:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

  If so, it perfectly illustrates the problem with paid editing: conflicting loyalties. In any case, what is to prevent him from saying exactly what you just said? BMK (talk) 18:32, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

True, but that does not mean we have to play the game of immoveable object v. irresistable force - CorporateM now understands the issue and will fix the issue for this article by walking away. Problem solved, IMO. Guy (Help!) 21:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The policy is stupid. If the edit would otherwise be allowed under the rules, who cares if it's being done for someone else? Apparently entirely too many people with nothing better to do. Jtrainor (talk) 22:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
• Endorse (as uninvolved users were requested)- there's no way to resolve the issue otherwise, and the rest will work itself out. The reason we're not a suitable source for citation for papers is because things are constantly changing here. We just don't like for it to take time; we want what we want and we want it NOW!! (or yesterday). Therefore, any issues there are now will work themselves out over time. We seem to think that what we write is set in stone, always accurate, and should be relied upon as legitimate advice, when in reality we don't make that claim and never have. MSJapan (talk) 02:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• No Endorse - I am uninvolved in this particular mess, so I'll give my views, which I have expressed elsewhere. The Terms of Use are the ultimate law here. Paid editing is an abomination and I don't buy the argument that we have to endure it or the paid editors will go underground. If they do, the WMF should apply enforcement. Is this an encyclopedia, or a Public Relations website? Jusdafax 10:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

  Why is paid editing an abomination? The idea here is to build an encyclopedia, and that encyclopedia should abide by WP:5P, including neutrality. If paid editing helps towards that goal (including the neutrality aspect) then it is a benefit, not a hindrance. Money is changing hands, but our encyclopedia gets extra stuff for free. What is an abomination, of course, is POV pushing, marketing, and attempts by companies and individuals to falsely paint themselves in a better light than is backed up by reliable sources. As long as the COI editor discloses fully who he or she is working for, and what the nature of the COI is, on every page edited in a COI manner, so that other editors can monitor it, then I have no problem with it.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree, and if I had my way paid editing would be absolutely banned, but it isn't so we have to deal with this in the usual way: a Wikipedia fudge that recognises the world as it is, rather than as we'd wish it to be. Guy (Help!) 22:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Yes and No. I'm certainly fine with endorsing the topic ban from Invisalign, but I don't think that being instituted actually provides closure regarding the topic of the original thread, which was "Does CM have to disclose what the ToU say he has to disclose with regard to the work he has done/is doing?" Now, he's said that going forward, he will provide all relevant disclosures, so that part of it can be put to bed, but I am still a little concerned about the lack of disclosures thus far. Not believing the ToU applied to you is not an excuse to not have followed them, nor is it an excuse for not going back to bring your work up to the ToU's disclosure standards. I would vastly prefer that CM go back and disclose all required disclosure details to any paid edits he has made since the ToU were instituted and/or they began to apply to him. On the other hand, I understand that he may have mistakenly given privacy guarantees to his clients, and that to provide these disclosures now may harm his business. I dislike the idea of real-world harming someone who was trying to play by our rules, even if they messed it up.

  So it seems to me we have a couple of options here, with regard to the partially-undisclosed work CM has done in the past: we can ignore it, extending him one-time amnesty for this failure with the understanding he will disclose in his work going forward; we can require him to go back and provide all relevant disclosures, which may have the effect of making him choose between onwiki sanctions (for not cooperating with a requirement to do so) and real-world ones (for breaking contracts with his clients); or we can require that CM provide retroactive disclosures where he is contractually able to do so, and that he attempt to negotiate permission to do so in cases where he currently can't, and then we can extend him the good faith of forgiving any past disclosures he remains unable to make after doing those two things. If, after that, people wish to attempt to use onwiki processes to deal with articles he can't fully disclose on, that's up to the community (but I suspect it would ultimately be unsuccessful, as CM's work is generally pretty good otherwise). The last option seems like the best balance to me: CM owes the community at least his best attempt to provide ToU-compliant disclosure on all his paid work, but mistakes happen and I would rather have someone commit to not making the same mistake in the future than eliminate them and their future, non-mistaken work from the project. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:03, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

It wrong to suppose that CorportaeM has been "Not believing the ToU applied" to him. CorporateM explained in April "I explicitly and knowingly do not comply with the requirement to disclose any marketing agencies involved, when there is one.". See User talk:CorporateM/Archive 20#COI declarations and ToU. Thincat (talk) 14:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I...what...ok, wow. That puts a different spin on things; I have been operating on the assumption that - and CM's initial statement in this thread certainly implied that - he believed he wasn't required to disclose what he wasn't disclosing. I'm much less willing to extend amnesty to someone who consciously chose to not follow what they knew to be the rules. If he was writing contracts guaranteeing confidentiality while knowing he was misleading his clients about Wikipedia's Terms of Use, it's not the community's responsibility to bend over backwards to keep him from the consequences of his own choices. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:11, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

CorporateM, can you comment here, please? Sarah ^(talk) 20:21, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I believe somewhere in this string I explained that I knew I was violating the technical letter of the Terms of Use, but the feedback I got from Wikipedians and a WMF staffer when the ToU were created was that common sense was triumphant; that since my disclosure did not fall under "deceptive activities, including misrepresentation of affiliation" that the ToU were intended to prevent, that this was fine. Astroturfing firms have sometimes used privacy arguments to justify their tactics and I have always argued that there is a way to protect privacy/confidentiality, while also avoiding the deception the ToU are referring to. It seems sentiment has changed.

It is very frustrating to participate in a discussion in which I have strong views, but discussion is not going my way and I have no intention in endlessly arguing in my defense. I'm moving on. CorporateM (Talk) 21:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• I honestly don't understand why Corporate M is so worried about his identity being disclosed. Unless I'm hallucinating, he's attended WMF sponsored events under his real name, and I'm pretty sure he's openly written about and been on podcasts (such as Wikipedia Weekly) under his real name. I can't imagine what harm would come from requiring him to disclose? Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Kevin, the issue is that CM doesn't want to say who is paying him to edit. CorporateM, thank you for the response. The problem is that you're working on articles (e.g. Yelp) after saying there is a COI but without specifying the nature of it. You've said elsewhere that this might mean you're being paid, or are doing what you've called pro bono work, or have some other association, so it leaves people none the wiser. The question here is whether you're willing to say who is paying you to work on the articles you accept payment for. Sarah ^(talk) 22:39, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Ah, yeah, I misread the initial worry as his name versus his client's name. Disclosure of client's names certainly seem to be necessary, especially since presumably politicians will be involved in paid editing sooner or later (to the extent that they aren't already,) it really does seem that disclosure of the actual client is required. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Kevin Gorman: The case in question is an example where I disclosed having a financial connection with the article-subject's PR agency, but didn't identify the agency by name. Another example was when I was hired by a family member of the BLP and I said I was hired by "a concerned relative", but didn't identify them by name. In another case, I am working with the article-subject's daughter who is handling her affairs and I don't feel her daughter's involvement is something Wikipedians need to know. In all cases a COI is disclosed, just not the names of individuals. CorporateM (Talk) 22:59, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@CorporateM: But that's the thing: what you feel and don't feel isn't the operative point here. By editing Wikipedia, and accepting payment for doing so, you are saying that you will abide by the Terms of Use, which you acknowledge require you to disclose the things you're choosing not to reveal. If someone wants to pay you to edit Wikipedia, they need to be ok with having their identity revealed accordingly, and I would assume they know this, because an ethical paid editor would be informing their clients what is required of them. The disclosure is not optional; it's not a judgment call you get to make. Either you abide by the ToU or you don't use the website, and the more you go on about how your feelings and preferences overrule the ToU, the less it sounds like you're interested in playing by the (quite lenient, given that they don't prohibit you profiting off the project or bar you from editing articles) rules. You can't just say "Ok guys, I'm done with this discussion, I'm tired of talking", because the point you're leaving on is "I don't have to abide by the ToU if I don't think it's necessary, and I don't happen to think it's necessary a lot of the time. But I'll totally do it sometimes, probably,", and if that's the only ground you're willing to give - that you'll probably abide by the ToU in the future, if you think it's relevant and you haven't promised your client otherwise - it's not enough for me, for one. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)As I understand it, he disclosed the ultimate client, but did not/would not disclose the name of the agency though whom the work was contracted. His stance seems to have been that since the ultimate source of the money was disclosed, the name of the middleman was not relevant and would not in fact be demanded, even if technically required. He apparently had some grounds to think that, and it is IMO not an outlandish position. But in this thread it was not accepted. DES ^(talk) 23:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• This isn't about one case or about exposing individuals. CM's practice is to say that he has a COI, without specifying the nature of it. He then proceeds to rewrite the article, and asks other editors to copy the drafts over, so that whole articles are being written on behalf of the subjects. This is especially tricky when dealing with medical issues. Respecting the spirit of the bright line, and naming who is paying for the edits, would help a lot. At Yelp, for example: is someone paying, and if so, is it Yelp or is it a PR company? We need this information for each article. (Pinging Coretheapple, who has been editing there.) Sarah ^(talk) 23:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Regardless of whether the rule was well thought through or well written, it remains quite clear, all three must be disclosed. While most normal people would understand the conflict if you said I'm working for X while editing X's product article means you may well be biased to its good. And the normal people also would understand if you said I'm working for X's (un-named) PR company doing the same thing to mean the same thing. But alas, the standards for disclosure are aimed to essentially make it virtually impossible for you to remain anonymous under your circumstances, so perhaps your effort would be better served not editing where you're conflicted and not fully disclosed or work to change the policy before continuing. For whatever reason, the powers that be want full disclosure beyond what a normal person would probably need to assume/impute the bias/conflict, so you either play by those rules or use someone else's website. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:55, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Just noticed the ping. Yes, CorporateM has to abide by the TOU, and I don't recall specifically how good his disclosure there has been. His behavior on the talk page there has irritated me because he has been off-the-charts aggressive in advancing the company's interests on the talk page, bringing RfC after RfC and generally behaving in a manner extremely wearisome to those of us who don't have a COI but are simply interested (in my case mildly) by the subject matter. CM actually invited me to that page and I assume he regrets having done so as my patience with him there has reached its limits. But to get back to this topic, he has to disclose his employer, including the name of the PR company employing him, and not wikilawyer about it. Either he is transparent or he doesn't edit the article. Coretheapple (talk) 00:39, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• And your comment, Core, perfectly illustrates why paid editing must be ended and rooted out with determination. A paid editor, bank accounts augmented by special interest cash, has all the time and energy in the world to game Wikipedia with every tactic permissible to achieve their clients' goals, while protected by "Assume good faith" rules that are rendered absurd by fiduciary renumeration. Or to put it more bluntly, paid editors are, by definition, bribed to wear volunteer editors down. Corporate M simply needs to, as you say, come clean. Since to do so threatens his livelihood, he will not. My patience is not only exhausted by such self-evident COI editing, it is also strained to the limit by the failure of editors here to demand that the hard work of volunteer editors is protected from mercenaries pushing public relations propaganda. This failure to put an end to the flood of slanted editing is a grave danger to the concept of a truly free source of honest information, the core goal of Wikipedia, and threatens to drive away volunteer editors, leaving behind tireless foot soldiers for monied interests. Jusdafax 10:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse - He had the class to just walk away, surely we can as well. His intention wasn't to slide by with any wrong doing, he said he now gets it, lets not flog him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• This isn't something I particularly want to keep going, but I only realized yesterday that CorporateM outed himself on 12 August on the Wikiconference USA site, six days before he opened this thread. His interpretation of this thread – that we forced him to out himself, and that therefore he can't continue to do volunteer work [8][9] – doesn't reflect that chronology. It has left me confused about what the problem is here. CorporateM, we need a clear commitment that you'll disclose employer and client for any paid contribution. Part of the point of this, as was explained to me when the TOU came into force, is that it helps us keep track of which PR firms are paying for content. Sarah ^(talk) 19:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

What a fascinating timeline indeed. Thanks for the update, SV. The class to run away, more likely. Disclosed paid editing just means that many business interests play at disclosure to look transparent, while socking like mad. I'm afraid I'm getting a very bad feeling from all this. Jusdafax 07:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Best practice for Paid Contribution Disclosure

I wonder if some of this could have been prevented with a better FAQ, better information at WP:PCD and better templates to make this easier. The FAQ and PCD both give a list of options - disclose on user page, disclose on article or disclose on edit summary. That may be the minimum, but I'd like to see a preferred option listed at PCD as a "best practice" for what to disclose when and where. Ideally, I'd like to see something like:

• Full disclosure of all articles a user is paid to edit on their user page (or sub page prominently linked)
• Full disclosure for a particular on the article talk page
• Something in the edit summary that says this is a paid edit (even just "Paid edit" at the start)

The {{Connected contributor}} was suggested on WP:COIN as a means of disclosure but it doesn't include everything needed for a ToU disclosure. I think specific templates for such disclosures might reduce some confusion, help more paid editors remain in compliance and improve the ability to identify those edits. The templates could add categories to users and to article talk pages that would indicate this user is a paid editor / this article has edits from a paid editor. Thoughts? Ravensfire (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

A lot of editors prefer that paid editors list the work they have done for pay on their user page, in one place. In my view, that is where the primary disclosure should happen. The {{Connected contributor}} template has a parameter for "otherlinks" and what I generally put there is a link to the disclosure (so that would be a link to the dif where the paid editor disclosed that particular "client, employer and affiliation". The ToU are not rocket science. Jytdog (talk) 17:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, I'm currently working on this template. If anyone has anything they wish for me to add, drop me a note on my talk and I'll see if I can pop it into the code. Mdann52 (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Hounding by Hijiri 88

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi, I there I was unsure to yet again bring up the issue but recent events do not leave me with no any other choice – that’s if I still want to be able to edit Nichiren Buddhist related matters. Recently I filed a question at ANI if edits by Hijiri 88 on Kokuchūkai [10] might violate the current IBAN. In the course of events they were blocked form editing Wikipedia for 72h [11]. Much to my surprise they became active on the talk page on Soka Gakkai. Prior to the 72 block they were all of a sudden active on [12] and [13]. Since Nichiren related matters are the most prominent on my watch list of about 200 articles these edits did not slip my attention: [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]. Ever since the events that led up to the IBAN I reduced my activity within articles considerably (except the odd talk page). My prime activity within Wikipedia is on Nichiren Buddhist related matters, therefore I want to file this complaint on the basis of WP:HOUND and ask for a TBAN against Hijiri 88 on articles that fall within the category of Nichiren Buddhism. The field of my activity is fairly limited but the latest activities by Hijiri 88 do seem to be aimed against me as an editor. I would also like to extend the TBAN on the article on Nippon Kaigi as this is an article that I created and do want them to give editors grief who extended the article considerably. I would also like admins to have a look at the somewhat foul language used within notes accompanying some of the edits by the editor in question. I was warned by admins and editors that an IBAN might not bring about the desired effect, but I was not prepared to what lengths some editors might go. I await admins response as I find the latest incidents to be irritating to say the least.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Just for purposes of clarification, this seems to be a request for a topic-ban from Nichiren Buddhism related content and pages with an additional extension of the ban to the Nippon Kaigi page? John Carter (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

@ John Carter Yes! I do not think that anybody owns an article and since I initiated the one on Nippon Kaigi and since I believe the editor in question actions are aimed against me I’d hate to see the work and effort by editors on Nippon Kaigi to be affected just because an editor holds grudges against me. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08 You both edit the same pages and the same topics, as we all know. How is it WP:HOUND exactly? It seems Hijiri88 is just editing those pages still. —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:03, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: I think the above statement might be a bit perhaps oversimplified and not necessarily supported by the evidence. From my own, admittedly weak, memory, given the time elapsed, I don't remember having ever seen Hijiri particularly editing content related to Nichiren Buddhism until the argument at Kenji Miyazawa between Catflap and Hijiri. While I myself have not been the most active in those pages myself, I only remember seeing Hijiri showning up since then. Certainly, I think a review of the statistics indicate that Hijiri did not edit the Soka Gakkai talkpage until August 16 as seen here and he has yet to edit the article itself at all, at least under the name Hijiri88. That being the case, I think there reason to believe that, in terms of at least this article, there is some reason to think that Hijiri88 may be stalking/hounding Catflap, who has been involved in discussion and editing of that particular article for some years now. John Carter (talk) 20:09, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Oversimplified like, say, slyly leaving out a huge chunk of timeline in order to imply that I was blocked for 72 hours for my edits to the Kokuchukai article, when in fact what happened was an extremely dubious string of events that saw an ANI proposal to dissolve the IBAN slipping onto a user talk page and me inadvertently typing the name "Catflap08" on said user talk page, when Catflap08 had previously gotten away with writing extensive criticism of me ("the other user") on his own talk page? Please could someone other than me and Wikimandia notice that Catflap08 has been lying through his teeth about the nature of this dispute for months on end, now, which is probably what led to the confusion that our "common ground" from which we should probably both, at this point, be TBANned is "Japanese culture"? This is getting utterly ridiculous. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:41, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for admitting you have broken the IBAN. AlbinoFerret 06:59, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh is that what I did? AlbinoFerret, if that's what you genuinely think my above comment then you need to read WP:LAWYER and seriously consider your place in this community. My using Catflap08's name on a user talk page discussion of the IBAN was a dubious violation at worst because (a) Catflap08 had done the same thing previously, (b) where I said "Catflap08" in an otherwise reserved and inoffensive comments, Catflap's included extensive commentary on the literary tastes and religious affiliations of "the other user", and (c) the blocking admin later (after the block had expired) outright encouraged me to discuss the IBAN and Catflap's edits on my talkpage, assuring me that as long as I didn't use Catflap's name he wouldn't block me again.

But all of this is irrelevant. Even if what I did was a violation, I have already done my time. What my above comment was trying to point out was that Catflap's above claim that I was blocked because my edits to the Kokuchukai article constituted an IBAN was a lie. I was blocked because I used Catflap's name on a talk page; Catflap's AN report on my Kokuchukai edits resulted not in me getting blocked but in several users calling for a boomerang against him.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The terms of the IBAN were well known to you. Excuses for breaking it matter little. With each comment here the hole deepens. AlbinoFerret 13:34, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The terms of the IBAN were either ill defined or not previously enforced; Catflap breeched the IBAN numerous times but with zero repercussions. Hijiri copied Catflap's breeches with no repercussions. Hijiri simply typed Catflap's username (which Catflap hadn't done) and was blocked for it. I don't see at all how Hijiri is "deepening the hole" with the above comment. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 17:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The IBan was a standard one, nothing special, but clearly both editors have shown themselves of being incapable of reigning themselves in to conform to it, hence my proposal below. BMK (talk) 20:21, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

It has been quite a few days since I was active here on Wikipedia. As I said once before my field of activity was quite limited – Nichiren Buddhism – hopefully non-sectarian non-partisan. The only place editors can turn to, in the cases of a dispute of this kind, is this very spot whether you like it or not – this is towards admins. I would like to underline though that there is quite a severe difference between conflicts on content and conflicts which are non-content based. As soon as (and just before) the 72h based ban on H88 was over they popped out of nowhere on Nichiren Buddhist related articles – effectively making it impossible for me to edit the area I have been most active on. Since sectarian views have taken over articles such as the one on Soka Gakkai I hardly even edit this article as it to my mind it is just no use anymore. So to bring the issue back to what I initially requested is me requesting to decide whether H88’s actions can be regarded as being hounded or followed or not. If the answer would have been a ‘No’ that would have been me being taken out the picture (effectively) anyways. If the answer would have been a ‘Yes’ then a TBAN against H88 would have silenced matters, as H88’s activities in other areas is nothing I am neither willing nor interested to comment on. All I can see so far reading this thread is that neither H88’s foul language nor insulting comments will stop. My only intent is to keep articles related to Nichiren Buddhism (except on Soka Gakkai – which I refrain to edit in major ways) as neutral as possible. If you TBAN me that will be out of en.wikipedia anyways. @ H88: you are unable to DISCUSS, if your views do not prevail you victimise yourself and if that fails you insult others. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Even though I have retired for the time being, except an edit on a talk page yesterday, there are a few things I would like to add before the case closes – no matter what the outcome is. Articles contents may or may not be disputed. The area I edit on is not without controversy, as dealing with beliefs which by definition are only rarely based on facts. For this very reason I distanced myself form the article on Soka Gakkai as it’s like fighting windmills. What bugs me most however is if references and further reading notes are deleted, this to my mind is just not on. We all might quarrel about an article’s content but any actions that are geared at disabling the reader to form their own opinion are to my mind not beneficial to the project. There are many references and notes that I do not agree with but I’d hate to see them go as I still believe the readers have enough brains to form their own opinion. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08: Since you are a recipient of the Editor of the Week Award, you know full well that you are the sort of editor Wikipedia can ill afford to lose. We would be sorry to lose you.TH1980 (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

One of the best, if still flawed, ways I can think of to address that point is to find out which extent reference sources deal with the topic in question, like SG, and what sources they use to support their own content. I am the first to admit that this method doesn't work anywhere near as well in current events type topics, which is also unfortunately the area in which the problem most often arises, but it is at least one generally broadly supported way to deal with the problem when such sources are available. John Carter (talk) 00:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposal (Hijiri88 and Catflap08)

The last run-in between Catflap and Hijiri was closed by Drmies as follows

The result is the ongoing and ever-increasing exasperation of the rest of the editors. Let's see. Sure, the edit Catflap complained about last week as a possible IBAN violation was possibly an IBAN violation--about as much as their edit from 4 May 2015 in the same article was probably also an IBAN violation. So I suppose a block for Hijiri could have been warranted. And a BOOMERANG block for Catflap for excessive whining could be warranted too. Hijiri perpetually tests my patience with the enormous number of words they seem to need, and the bigger the forum the more words... I'm inclined to just block both of them for three months to just be done with it, but I'm a pacifist. So I'm just going to ask both to just zip it. Just f***ing zip it. It's a pity there is no broad agreement on any solution, cause boy would I like to put a stop to this. Grow up, both of you.

As it is quite apparent that neither is able to control themselves, per Drmies' sage suggestion, I renew the earlier suggestion that both be indefinitely topic banned from their common ground which I believe is Japanese culture. The only other alternative I can see is to start a new noticeboard just for the two of them and ban them from AN and AN/I, so at least their ongoing battle will be out of sight. BMK (talk) 18:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. BMK (talk) 18:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Please, could any closing admin note that BMK has been corrected on this point numerous times and has not amended his proposal: "their common ground" properly refers to Nichiren Buddhist NRMs, an area that comprises probably 80% of Catflap08's edits and 5% of mine. "Japanese culture" is an area that comprises probably 80% of Catflap08's edits and probably 95% of mine. Japanese culture minus Nichiren Buddhist NRMs is an area that comprises 0% of Catflap08's edits, and 90% of mine. The unaccounted 20% of Catflap08's edits appear to mostly relate to German geography and religion in Germany; the unaccounted 5% of my edits are random articles I happen to be reading and decide to touch up a bit. Do the math and you'll see that the proposed topic-ban is both (a) ridiculously broad compared to the super-narrow "common ground" Catflap08 and I share, and (b) appears to have been chosen to disproportionately affect me, despite the unanimous agreement among impartial observers that there is plenty of blame to go around. I have no interest in limiting my Wikipedia activity to "random articles I happen to be reading and decide to touch up a bit", so the TBAN as proposed would amount to a de facto site-ban for me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: It might, maybe, be worth reviewing the history of the editors in question relating to their interactions with other editors. If one (or both) of them act similarly in terms of their interactions with other editors, that might be potentially grounds for thinking that the problems might be more due to one than to the other. Also, I think it might be worth noting that Catflap above has more or less indicated that he is limiting his input to Japanese culture, or at least Nichiren Buddhism, which probably falls within the broad scope of Japanese culture, and that, I think, Hijiri may also be if not an SPA particularly focused on Japanese culture. If true, then the proposal might, in a sense, be considered tantamount to a site ban for one or both, if the defined field is, effectively, their primary or sole area of interest. John Carter (talk) 19:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

John Carter, if you mean what you earlier implied (that we should unblock Juzumaru, JoshuSasori and so on, and unban Tristan noir) you are clearly insane, and are not here to help build an encyclopedia. Please drop the stick and grow the hell up already. Stop following me, and stop trying to go back through the archives and bring back every user who has ever harassed me. You hounded me in this way from March to May, then disappeared for three months and then immediately come straight back after me -- what gives? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:03, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose @ BMK: I have been active here for a quite number of years my area of activity is limited and I do admit the issues are sometimes controversial. I neither support a complete ban on issues regarding Japanese culture against Hijiri 88 nor against me (that would be stupid) as my activities are limited. I do believe that I am fairly neutral on Nichiren related matters, but if you ban us both this will not resolve matters, but just make your job easier and therefore negate current guidelines. Please do keep in mind that all what led here was mentioning a so called poet’s religious affiliation. Banning us, effectively, wont’t help the project and its content. All I am asking is to decide if current guidelines are affected or not. If current guidelines are found not be affected I will piss off anyway (please do note I do not usually use this language usually).--Catflap08 (talk) 19:22, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I will refrain from !voting in this matter given my own history with both editors. Having said that, I have to agree with Catflap above that, in the time I have been to varying degrees involved in Soka Gakkai and NB related content, he has impressed me as being primarily interested in keeping the material from resembling advertorials, which is generally a good thing. I also note that the specific nature of the dubious interaction does seem, as per the initial statement, to be related to Nichiren related content. While Nichiren related content is very significant in the history of Japanese culture, I think limiting the scope of potential sanctions to NB rather than Japanese culture would probably be called for, given the history of this interaction, and I at least would very strongly hope that Catflap not be sanctioned to basically remove himself from his primary field of editing, in which he has been successful and productive in preventing POV pushing by supporters of groups, who often outnumber the less biased editors in those areas by a great number. John Carter (talk) 19:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support - I've read a lot recently from a wide variety of editors about how relentless POV warriors create toxic editing environments which drive quality editors away from the site, and just a couple of days ago we lost one of our best admins to a sockpuppeting troll with a throwaway account. Above, Drmies has asked you both to lay off, and you obviously haven't. Listen to Drmies!! If they were to come by here and block both of you right now, I don't think there's anyone here who would object, saving maybe John Carter who makes a compelling argument about Catflap's persistent NPOV in this topic area. WP:CIR applies: if the contributions you make aren't worth the "ever-increasing exasperation of the rest of the editors", you shouldn't be here. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:27, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: Who's a relentless POV warrior? I think you would be hard-pressed to identify any kind of "POV" on my part in any aspect of my interactions with Catflap08 -- I am not a Soka Gakkai member (I don't even much like the group), nor a member of the Kokuchukai, and it wouldn't change my life even a bit if it turned out that Miyazawa Kenji was in fact a "nationalist". I just want Wikipedia to accurately reflect what the best scholarly sources say. The only relentless POV-pusher here is Catflap08, who has been spending years distorting sources and jumping through hoops to make Wikipedia say what he wants it to about various neo-Nichiren groups, both ones he likes (Nichiren-shoushuu) and doesn't (SG, etc.). If your argument is that we should both be TBANned because we are relentless POV warriors, I would ask for evidence of this. Additionally, which "topic" should we/just Catflap08/just me be banned from? "Japanese culture" is ridiculously broad, as it bears no relation whatsoever to Catflap08's disputes with me -- "NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism" would be a much better proposal, and if the TBAN were mutual I would actually support it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:17, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: No, let me be clear about this: I don't care about your or Catflap's POV, or what topics you both edit or don't edit. My only interest in this is not seeing your two names plastered all over this noticeboard any more. My opinion is that you should both be banned outright, since you've both been happy to game the IBAN and it seems likely you'll both be intent on gaming whatever TBAN we're likely to impose. It's ridiculously broad because your ongoing conflict is ridiculous and will require ridiculous measures to stop, apparently. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Please provide some evidence that I have gamed the IBAN? I reported Catflap08 for violating it. I only accepted the IBAN (as proposed initially by Catflap08) because I was under the impression that it meant no more interaction between us. I didn't know that it meant that he could revert my edits with impunity and then when I reported him on ANI I would be the one treated to repercussions. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose This thread is utter nonsense. I have been editing the area of Japanese Buddhism since before Catflap08 even registered an account, and have indisputably contributed more to the area in recent months than he has -- simply editing in the area is not an IBAN-violation, as was decided by AN-consensus when Catflap08 wasn't blocked for doing the same thing (as well as directly reverting my edits). BMK's assertion that our common ground is "Japanese culture" is equally ridiculous. I have only ever been interested in editing articles on "Japanese culture", and 99% of users who share this area with me would vehemently oppose the idea that I be TBANned from this area: just ask @Nishidani: @Shii: @Sturmgewehr88: ... (almost none of whom agree with me 100%, but all of whom legitimately understand this area as well as my contributions to it). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:03, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Your post is an example of WP:CANVASS. Any comment these editors make should be taken with a grain of salt. AlbinoFerret 14:58, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support (non admin observation) Enough is enough. This continued disruption is never ending and ongoing where one or the other is on one of the boards giving enough evidence for either of them needing a ban. It doesnt matter what good they have done or how nice the things they have added. This is a behaviour issue. One my new essay WP:NOTABOVE covers nicely without a lot of words. AlbinoFerret 22:25, 20 August 2015 (UTC) I would also support separate or single bans. AlbinoFerret 15:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Albinoferret: Please explain how arbitrarily banning me from every article I have ever edited will help end disruption and improve the project? You are the one who needs to drop the stick in this situation, as you have had it in for me for months, every time this or another issue in which I have been involved comes up on ANI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I watch and contribute on AN/I in discussions, I think more community members should do this. This isnt hounding you, its the community saying enough is enough. If more people frequented this board regularly they would be saying the same thing. The topic ban will just remove an area of WP. You will still be able to edit and show that you are a constructive member of the community, or use it as rope. AlbinoFerret 23:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

So you are saying that you should be indefinitely banned from every article you show an interest in editing because you post on ANI regularly? Your argument makes no sense. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:19, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

No, I am saying both editors consistent gaming and breaking of the IBAN that was the result of constant behaviour problems leading up to said IBAN is a good reason to topci ban them both so there is no winner in a content dispute. That the topic ban needs to have sufficient border so that it doesnt spill into other areas that both editors want to edit and if not able to edit their favourite articles will still stay in the general topic area. This needed to end months ago, its an ongoing behaviour problem. AlbinoFerret 15:41, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Strong support I have ANI on my watch list and 2/3 of the time it has something to do with Hijiri. Frankly, I am annoyed and I had to peek into it all. It's nothing but disruption and lack of dropping the stick by the file reporter and possibly hounding them as well but that's another matter. It's best that these two editors get topic-banned to end this drama-filled editing between them. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 22:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

@Callmemirelal: Excuse me? You claim it's always me, but in reality all the times you are referring to it is me and Catflap08, and you above refer to me as the "file reporter" -- you very clearly have not read this thread very closely. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Uhmmm... Way to give it a go. Please search up who filed this report, hence "file reporter". I have never claimed it was always you. I said what I saw as new sections had something to do with you. Never have I ever claimed it was always you at fault. Please reread my post. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 23:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

@Callmemirela: (sorry for the bad ping previously -- this whole thing has me super stressed out, as what is essentially being discussed here is a one-way de facto SBAN for me) If you do not think that I am always the one at fault, then why are you supporting a TBAN that is tailor-made to force me, not Catflap08, off Wikipedia? Catflap08's main area of interest (Soka Gakkai International) arguably does not fit into "Japanese culture", but is a part of this dispute; my main area of interest (classical Japanese poetry) most certainly fits into "Japanese culture" and has nothing whatsoever to do with this dispute. The proposed TBAN would block both Catflap08 and myself from every article I have ever shown any interest in editing, and has nothing whatsoever to do with my long-running dispute with Catflap08 regarding Nichiren Buddhist NRMs. If the TBAN for which you above expressed "Strong support" were to pass, I would be forced to retire from Wikipedia, since I would be TBANned from the only (very broad) topic area I am interested in. The TBAN would also negatively affect Catflap08, but so would a TBAN on Nichiren Buddhist NRMs, which is the area actually under dispute. If the TBAN was worded properly, it would effectively solve the dispute between me and Catflap08, and allow other users to eventually work out all the kinks in the very narrow group of articles in question; as worded now, it disproportionately affects me by randomly banning me from the thousands upon thousands of articles that are in my area of interest/expertise but have nothing whatsoever to do with my dispute with Catflap08. If you sincerely meant that you support "some kind of two-way topic-ban" for myself and Catflap08, then you and I are actually in agreement, but I would ask that you clarify this position in light of the actual (very narrow) area covered by this dispute (see full list of article Catflap08 and I have disputed on below). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Neutral. Why? Well, it's like this...although I also have pretty much had my fill of these two editors' antics, the conflict between them seems to go far beyond the subject of Japanese culture (or any other topic). I mean, there's an IBAN in place and they still won't cut it out? Maybe general blocks for both of them (length to be determined by closing admin) is in order instead. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• Strong Support topic ban for Hijiri88 on Japanese culture and history-related topics - I said what needed to be said the last time a topic ban was proposed on Hijiri88. I noted Hijiri88's disruptive and uncooperative pattern of editing in this field and all Hijiri could do in response was openly threaten me with "harsh repercussions". This is Hijiri88's typical reaction to anyone he disagrees with. Catflap and I are just the latest to take this sort of abuse. I'm sorry Catflap has gotten tied up in yet another one of Hijiri's never-ending crusades. This is now the FOURTH time this year (at least) that this kind of sanction has been proposed against Hijiri88. When is the Wikipedia community or an admin finally going to say, "enough is enough"?TH1980 (talk) 00:45, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• In light of the above, it might not be unreasonable to perhaps break the proposed sanction down into separate proposed sanctions for the two as individuals, and, perhaps, if others see fit, to specify the exact nature of the scope of the proposed sanctions. It seems to me that the scope of the disagreement is Japanese Buddhism, not Japanese culture (but, like with most historical religions, the distinction between the religion and the culture gets blurry), and it might make sense, maybe, to consider limiting the scope to Japanese Buddhism or Nichiren Buddhism. John Carter (talk) 00:51, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• I would strongly object to any alteration of this proposal. If you want to make two additional separate proposals, one for each editor, go ahead and do so in separate sections, not this one, but I guarantee you'll only muddy up the waters, which will end up once again with a continuation of the status quo. In any case my proposal stands as is, clear, equal treatment for both editors, who are equally responsible for the IBan between them not working. BMK (talk) 00:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Beyond My Ken:: The proposed variation was only made in light of the !vote above supporting sanctions against one editor only. I have a feeling that such variant !votes might lead to the result Blackmane mentions below, no consensus and ArbCom. Not that ArbCom would, necessarily, necessarily be a bad place to thrash out the whole histories of all involved here, to see if there are any differential levels of guilt as some indicate they see above. John Carter (talk) 01:15, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

In my experience, closers are intelligent enough to figure these things out without having to slice up the conversation for them. Probably best to leave it alone. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:28, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• Supported it last time, but it was closed without consensus. This is ridiculous, at this rate, ArbCom is the only remaining option. Blackmane (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

After a moment's thought, I'll expand on this. Both are substantial contributors in the content but seem to be unable to restrain themselves when they get together, much like 2 like magnetic poles constantly repelling each other. To remove one without the other could be seen as a validation of either one. I believe BMK's proposal is less about their content contributions than it is their collective behaviour towards each other on articles they have in common. Given they have little in common outside of this single field, it is at least my hope that this will stop. Blackmane (talk) 01:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Blackmane is correct. The ideal here would have been for the IBan to have worked. We'd get the advantage of both editor's contributions, and there would peace across the land. But, unfortunately, for whatever reason (I won't hazard guesses as to why), these two people just cannot get along without bringing their conflicts to the community again and again. My feeling is that the only way to get through to them is with a topic ban. "Indefinite" does not mean permanent. My hope would be that when the two combatants start to tire of not being able to edit in an area they both really enjoy working in, they may begin to see the value of cooperating with the terms of the IBan. Obviouslyt, right now, it means more to the both of them to keep fighting then it does to keep editing. This would change that, and provoke (I hope) a change of heart for both of them. I don't expect them to ever be bosom buddies, but the community does expect them to follow the rules of the IBan. They clearly can't do that, so this is the next available option. BMK (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I thought you were proposing to block them both outright, and my earlier comment reflects that. I'll also support a double topic ban, although I expect we'll see them back here again very soon and be discussing blocks for violating the topic ban. I don't support only banning one of them. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban is much easier to enforce than the IBAN. Any activity in the topic would be a violation of the ban. But in the IBAN there is the ability to game the system. Making it more difficult to enforce as evident by the sections that have happened in the recent past. But I plan to collect the names of oppose votes and ping them every time this pops up again if the topic ban doesnt pass. The way I see it is they only see part of the problem, whereas most of the supporters recognise this isnt an isolated incident and that its an ongoing problem that never seems to be taken care of. My support of the topic ban isnt tied to this one section, but many going back months.AlbinoFerret 19:02, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

As a stray thought we could use an edit filter to enforce an IBAN, up to a point. I have created an example filter in 1 (logging only). It could be refined to ignore specific name-spaces, or noticeboards. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 04:17, 21 August 2015 (UTC).

• Oppose (for now) What did Hijiri 88 do? I don't see how he is hounding Catflap08 or why this ANI has any merit. —Мандичка^YO 😜 07:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• I'm sorry Beyond My Ken, but I do not support a topic ban for Catflap. A narrow topic ban for Hijiri, who has broad interests, would not take Catflap out of the Wikipedia picture, and while the case for hounding isn't airtight, I do think that Hijiri is following Catflap--Wikimandia, in the two or three of the articles that I looked, Catflap has edited for a long time and Hijiri is a recent visitor, as on Talk:Soka Gakkai. In other words, I support John Carter's clarification, in the section above. Drmies (talk) 14:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the edits and it seems they all pertain (mostly) to the Japanese language, etc, which is I think is one of H88's interests. The edits H88 made appear to my eyes to be helpful. I fail to see a solid case for hounding. It seems IMHO that this is more of a "stay out of my area" type of thing ie "I edited here first so it's mine." —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:42, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08 is being paranoid, and Drmies (despite my history with him) has not looked closely enough at my edit history. I am interested in Japanese religion, and probably know more about Japanese Buddhism than Catflap08 does; my very first edit to Wikipedia back in 2005 was about Shinto. In fact, I think if you went through all of Catflap08's edits and checked his sources, you would find that I have actually contributed more over the years to this particular topic area than he has. TBAN me from NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism except for the Kokuchukai and Miyazawa Kenji (which I would guess accounts for roughly 80% of Catflap08's edits but a relatively small proportion of mine; the two exceptions are to allow me to contrinue to work on two articles to which I am essentially the sole contributor) if need be. Catflap08 hardly ever edits articles related to Nichiren Buddhism before 1900, and almost never edits any articles related to Japanese Buddhism other than Nichiren Buddhism. The "disruption" between the two of us was exclusively in the area of "NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism"; the TBAN proposal of "Japanese culture" seems to be a slight against me specifically, since TBANning both of us from "NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism" would likely force Catflap08 off Wikipedia, but not me; "Japanese culture" seems to be specifically designed to spite/SBAN me, since the present "disruption" has hardly anything to with "Japanese culture". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• Topic ban everyone - God knows his own. Although I see the threat of topic banning them both has actually got them to agree. From past experience of their work - Hijari's would actually be a loss to the encyclopedia, however if they cannot learn to work together, at this point its a hit WP might have to take. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:11, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Only in death: Your comment clearly shows you haven't read the thread. Why did you misspell my user name? Why do you think Catflap08 and I need to learn to "work together"? We are already IBANned! What topic do you propose? "Japanese culture" is ridiculously broad, and seems to be tailor-made to drive me off Wikipedia; the actual topic area under discussion is "NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism". If you had actually been following this dispute long enough to be as frustrated with it as you claim to be, you would not be making these mistakes. Sorry to pick on you, but it's difficult to follow all of this. It seems that a whole bunch of people (friends of BMK?) are ust showing up to support a ridiculous proposal, when virtually everyone who actually understands the dispute in question oppose it. Please read through the past thread if you are taking the "this is incredibly draining on the community" argument to heart, and please consider what topic area you are talking about when you say "topic ban everyone". If it is mutual, I would actually support a topic ban on both of us from the area of "NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism"; but the proposed "Japanese culture" has absolutely no logical basis, and no support whatsoever from the community of editors who actually contribute to the area of "Japanese culture". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Whatever past irritants, I do not see what the latest matter is about. What is the evidence of hounding on which Hijiri is supposed to be banned? I do not see any evidence of breach of IBAN either, or at least none has been provided. This kind of reminds me of Alice in Wonderland: "Sentence first, verdict later" (or perhaps not at all?) Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment As far as I can see it the mood is towards topic banning us both. Fine go ahead that will leave me out of the game, an outcome H88 has previously hoped for as I “dared” to highlight Kenji-man’s religious affiliation and nationalist tendencies. I wonder these days what ever happened to good faith vs bad faith edits. The diffs I showed in the beginning of this thread had no other purpose than to piss me off – and they did. I can well understand that admins are annoyed about this carry-on but I tried to adhere as much as possible to current guidelines … call it hounding or Wikimandia, but please do be so kind and ditch all current guidelines and means (such as ANI) to highlight a problem and turn to a thumbs up or thumbs down policy only. If the latest edits by H88, keeping in mind the IBAN, are found to be okay and thereby effectively disabling me to edit articles on Nichiren Buddhism – as I would then myself violate the IBAN – fine, so be it. Please do have the guts to admit that the strategy used by H88 then does seem to work, congrats to you H88 btw. Due to the articles I edit I am used to conflict and disagreement but this is an issue I am sure not willing to use my spare time on any longer. In the guideline on hounding it says: “The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. …” Ever since this conflict started I was insulted, followed around even some smearing remark left while H88 edited the article on my hometown (Oh yes SURE he did not know it was my hometown … yea right). I created a few articles, in my books had a more or less neutral input on Nichiren Buddhist related articles, but there is no enjoyment being part of this project anymore. Conflicts can be productive or unproductive - this one is unproductive. I am no longer willing to participate and the “enjoyment” of dealing with H88 is here to stay, bad faith edits, insults and foul language do seem to work then. I guess they will continue to be an issue here in days to come. Good riddance!-- 17:16, 21 August 2015 (UTC)--Catflap08 (talk) 17:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08, you don't know a damned thing about Kenji Miyazawa; everyone who has ever contributed anything to the new and improved version of that article has agreed with this. Your edits were highly disruptive, and did not "highlight" anything other than your own hatred of any form of Nichiren Buddhism other than Nichiren-shoushuu. Please drop the damn stick -- it's been more than a frickin' year! Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri, I thank you for so clearly indicating in the above comment your habit of almost instantly taking recourse to irrational, probably unsupportable, insults and obscenities directed against those with whom you are in disagreement, a habit of yours which I have noted repeatedly. One could just as easily say that, after the 9 years of being an editor that you so regularly boast of, you don't know a damn thing about the policies and guidelines of this site. The fact that you so regularly engage in purely counterproductive personal attacks, as per the above, is one reason why I think that the concept of some sort of stronger sanctions against you is getting a lot of support, whether alone or in tandem with Catflap. You are in control of your own actions and vulgarity, and cannot blame anyone for your own regular displays of obnoxious arrogance, which, as Drmies has said elsewhere in this thread, would decidedly wear on him too. John Carter (talk)

@Catflap08: - I have no idea what this means - "please do be so kind and ditch all current guidelines and means (such as ANI) to highlight a problem and turn to a thumbs up or thumbs down policy only" What are you talking about? —Мандичка^YO 😜 04:19, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: I think he means that he wishes that there wasn't all this beauracratic mess to push through just to establish that there's a problem, or to have that problem delt with? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:37, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• • I see what edit you mean. It was a while ago, when both of you were up at arbitration, and it is very, very hard to escape the impression that it was done to get a rise out of you, since I don't think Hijiri edits a lot of those articles. All the more reason for me to reiterate that a. both editors have something to contribute to Wikipedia and b. topic-banning Hijiri from some narrowly construed area, the area that Catflap is most active in (I understand it might not be easy to demarcate this, but we could try) keeps both editors on board. Drmies (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: Catflap08 and another user were in off-wiki communication about the edit in question. And I think consensus should be gathered on whether only myself or both of us should be TBANned from Catflap08's preferred area (NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism) -- I think the broad consensus from users involved in editing this area would be that Catflap08 has been highly disruptive over the years, while my relatively few edits have mostly been quite good. I would be happy to take a hit, though, if it meant less disruption to the project from Catflap08, who after years of lectures from me and others still doesn't know how to properly cite sources. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

My dear Hijiri, if I'd had to sit through years of your lectures I'd be exasperated too. Now, it looks as if BMK's proposal, for a topic ban for the both of you, is gaining plenty of traction; if "take a hit" means you'll accept a limited topic ban, then you're probably making a wise choice. Now, Catflap wasn't in email communication about that edit with me but it didn't take me long to find it. It's a while ago, and it was made at a time that was stressful for the both of you, but it just signifies that...well, what editors here have been saying, editors who want the both of you gone. Drmies (talk) 00:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88 Do you have diffs that expressly prove that there was off wiki communication that goes against PAG? Also please tell us what PAG they violate. AlbinoFerret 00:06, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret

19:56, 25 March 2015: John Carter makes his first ever edit remotely related to the poet/children's author Kenji Miyazawa, making a flawed analogy that show his ignorance of (lack of interest in?) the topic.

03:50, 11 April 2015: I make an edit to an article on a German city I happen to be reading (it was over four months ago; I don't remember why).

20:27, 15 April 2015: Catflap08 claims, on-wiki, for the first time ever, almost five days after my edit, that the city in question is where he "currently resides".

21:25, 15 April 2015: John Carter refers to the city as Catflap08's "home town", despite Catflap08 never posting this information on-wiki. Note that during the intervening five days, I never touched the article, and Catflap08, John Carter and I were relatively active in editing, making 10, 217 and 33 edits respectively, and interacting with each other constantly. Catflap08's suddenly noticing my edit several days later and John Carter's immediately picking up on it (having also, apparently, failed to notice it for for five days), and the two of them making it their main talking point all of a sudden, is extremely suspicious. John Carter's knowing a piece of information about Catflap related to this dispute that Catflap never stated on-wiki means he heard it from him off-wiki. John Carter was at the time engaged in off-wiki contact about me with at least two users, and Catflap was engaged in off-wiki contact about me with at least one user, User:Sturmgewehr88, who graciously forwarded said contact to me.

05:14, 17 April 2015: IBAN between Catflap08 and myself put in place.

01:26, 19 April 2015 and 01:27, 19 April 2015: Drmies, at the request of John Carter (why does he care?), reminds both Catflap08 and myself that we are subject to an IBAN.

14:23, 22 April 2015: I make a self-revert to the Kenji Miyazawa article in line with previously-established consensus (my earlier edit of 27-28 March 2015 had been a conditional concession to a vocal minority in an RFC -- who later violated said conditions -- but was never claimed as the "consensus" until 14:14, 15 April 2015, which claim was overruled within a few days). Two hours later, my edit is reverted by John Carter, who has never edited the article before.

16:26, 22 April 2015 - 17:56, 1 May 2015: John Carter suddenly posts 52 times on the Kenji Miyazawa talk page, and reverts me five times in a 31-hour period. Why the sudden interest in Kenji Miyazawa? And why the curious knowledge of how the dispute had gone from June 2014 to March 2015 but with certain key features that didn't support Catflap08's story left out? Did he go through the talk page and read everything that had been posted previously? If so, why did he not know that a unanimous RFC had determined that Kenji should not be referred to as a "nationalist" without further evidence? Or did he receive a summary of the dispute from Catflap08 that left out those details? I of course don't have any conclusive evidence that John Carter definitely was acting as an IBAN-violation proxy for Catflap08, but his suddenly developing an enormous interest in this article that falls so far out of his normal editing area, immediately after the imposition of the IBAN, and his knowing obscure details about the dispute before he joined in but completely missing the massive, unanimous RFC seems highly suspicious, don't you agree?

21:08, 28 April 2015: Catflap08 shows up suddenly on the talk page discussion between John Carter and myself (in what by Drmies' recently-stated definition almost certainly qualifies as a borderline IBAN-violation and "hounding" of me) indicating that he was aware of it (more aware than John Carter, in fact) and following it quite closely, which supports my belief that he had been in contact with John Carter about it prior to his showing up.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:53, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

You forgot the most important part, what PAG do they violate? Dont go into pages of dialogue, just present the PAG. Seconddly, all I see is circumstantial possibilities that you have jumped to ABF and are casting WP:ASPERSIONS. I want a diff where they admitted emailing each other in order to harass you, again without long explinations from you on how it couldnt be any other way. Present the evidence and let others draw the conclusions. AlbinoFerret 04:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@AlbinoFerret: Surely you are not suggesting that requesting an IBAN with another user while at the same time making plans to immediately violate said IBAN via proxy is in accordance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines? Let alone that the specific edits Catflap08 apparently requested John Carter make in his stead were blatant NPOV and NOR violations. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• • @ Drmies As much as I welcome your support for finding a solution to all this I still believe that the willingness to come to an agreement has to be present on all sides. I once hoped that the IBAN would resolve matters as the issues I am dealing with are fairly limited. But there is no winning when dealing with an editor on a complete different agenda – an agenda I am unwilling to understand. Me retiring is the only way that the editor in question will be preoccupied with other topics – and conflicts, and in future other, hopefully unbiased, editors will tend to Nichiren Buddhist related matters. I do care about the subjects I edited on and welcome input as long as it is constructive. H88 has so many conflicts going on that I can only hope that articles on Nichiren Buddhsim will continue to grow and flourish without me being part of it. In the end the reader should be informed. I am sure that admins will be kept busy dealing with H88. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support WOW! This battle has been raging for over half a year. By this point in time, a far-reaching topic ban is probably the only reasonable solution, or else this will go on forever. I see disruptive behavior on both sides. Ahiroy (talk) 03:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ahiroy: Who are you? You have never been involved in this dispute before, so I'm curious as to why you are using an arbitrary (and inaccurate) start-point for the dispute to justify your assertion that a two-way, super-broad topic ban is the way to solve it. So far, virtually everyone who has actually been involved in this dispute for at least several months believes (1) the proposed TBAN is far too broad (the topic-area under dispute is NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism, not "Japanese culture") and (2) the aggressor throughout 90% of the fourteen months this dispute has been running (throughout this time strictly confined to articles related to Nichiren Buddhist NRMs) has been Catflap08, and my "disruptive behavior" has been mostly reactionary. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - "Japanese culture" is ridiculously broad. I would agree to a week-long block for both users, a TBAN from Nichiren Buddhism for Hijiri, and a page ban from any and all articles that Catflap has been disruptive on (Kenji Miyazawa is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) for Catflap. No more and no less is appropriate. And for those above users who !voted "support" because they got annoyed at seeing either of these editors names a few times here: go do something besides hanging out at ANI. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 05:22, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• "Japanese culture" (and I actually should have written "Japanese history and culture", but it's too late to go back now) is no broader than "U.S. Politics", which ArbCom used as a topic ban not too long ago. I don't think that anything will come of this unless the editors really start to feel that they're missing out on something they really want to be involved in, and that means that the topic ban needs to be substantial and the time period needs to be indef so they can't just wait it out and then return to the same behavior, as has happened before. If you read this thread, you'll see that some people think Catflap is at fault and some think that Hijiri is at fault -- and, of course, both of them think that the other is the bad guy. This circumstance is the very reason why it must be an equal sanction, with no determination of percentage of blame (pace Drmies). They're clearly both at fault, in one way or another, to one extent or another, and the ongoing tangoing has to stop. Blocks and IBans haven't worked, this is the next step. If this fails, it's either ArbCom or mutual indef blocks -- at some point the net value of the editor just drops below zero. We're not there yet, but that's the direction we're heading in. BMK (talk) 06:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@BMK: "Japanese culture" is ridiculously broad. The disruption in question has taken place exclusively on articles related to NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism. To extrapolate from this that a mutual TBAN from "Japanese culture" is warranted is equivalent to proposing a TBAN on "U.S. politics" for two users who have been fighting over articles related to Hillary Clinton. Or rather, it is equivalent to proposing such for two users who have been fighting over Hillary, when one of those users is an SPA whose every edit on Wikipedia has been to insert BLP violations against the woman, and the other user has been making a large number of constructive edits to the broad topic area of "U.S. politics" for years. Such a proposal would be an obvious attempt to needlessly spite the latter user. So far as I can see, Sturmgewehr88 is the only user to so far way in here with any interest in or knowledge of "Japanese culture", and he says the proposal is too broad: ask any other user in WikiProject Japan and they will say the same. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:27, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• I hardly need to ask the editors of WikiProject Japan, since you have already WP:CANVASSed them with a non-neutral pointer to this discussion threatening to quit Wikipedia if the proposal goes through. BMK (talk) 16:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

The part of that post , which is not neutral, But I find it interesting Hijiri 88 said Another user and I are up for a mutual topic ban from "Japanese culture" because our mutual interaction ban has been an absolute failure. AlbinoFerret 17:05, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: @AlbinoFerret: How was my pointer not neutral? How could it possibly violate WP:CANVAS? The only member of WikiProject Japan to express any opinion at all so far has been User:Sturmgewehr88, who thanked me. Was our mutual interaction ban not an absolute failure? And why do I not have a right to quit Wikipedia if I am indefinitely forced out of the only topic area in which I have any interest? It's not a "threat" -- it's an observation that I frankly have no interest in contributing to areas of this project that don't interest me and in which I have very little knowledge. I don't see why I should have to explain why I would want to leave the project if I was forced out of the project, when thus far BMK has made no effort whatsoever to explain his ridiculously-broad TBAN parameters. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:54, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Its as far from neutral as can be with a threat to have to leave WP, what else do you expect people who agree with you to do other than come here and defend you? AlbinoFerret 04:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• It isnt annoyance that they have shown up a few time, its more than a few. Its that their behaviour over the span of months is bad. Constant problems with one or the other and nothing is done and I think some editors think it will all go away if we just get past the most recent blow up. Well it hasnt, and I think that the problem is that nothing has happened to them other than an IBAN that they both game. I think when nothing happens it emboldens one or both making them believe that nothing will happen this time, they got away before, and the project suffers. As for telling editors to go someplace else, we all help the project in our own way. This board is open to all members of the community to post on. AlbinoFerret 15:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• I am myself still undecided that this is the best way to go. It is strictly a personal opinion, of course, but I think that maybe ArbCom might be a preferable alternative. Maybe. John Carter (talk) 16:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, are you going to take it to Arbcom? If not who is? If no one is willing to step forward, Arbcom isnt realistic. AlbinoFerret 16:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I remember Catflap already sought input from ArbCom once, prior to the i-ban. That being the case, I think that if this thread closes without a clear decision to do something here, he might do so again, or, failing that, I certainly would be willing to do so. John Carter (talk) 17:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Such a topic ban would be too broad, and the quarrel in question doesn't concern "Japanese history and culture", it concerns a much smaller subset. If the topic ban is re-scoped towards Nichiren Buddhist topics, I wouldn't find it as concerning, however there is a net loss of benefit from a topic ban for "Japanese history and culture" to the project, especially in regards to the improvements made to articles outside of the realms of this current dispute. Don't get me wrong: I can see the wrongdoings, I'm just looking at the long term effects, and weighing out the pros and cons of such a topic ban. There is definitely a better way to handle this. --benlisquare_T•C•E 18:38, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• The "quarrel in question" is simply the specific instance at this moment in time of a battle between the two editors that has been going on for over a year, and has wound up on the noticeboards at least a dozen times. Use the search box at the top of the page and put in each of their names (one at a time) and feast your eyes on the time and energy these two have sucked out of the community because they cannot get along. It is their mutual long-term behavior which sparks this proposal, not this relatively minor dispute. BMK (talk) 20:51, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Benlisquare: Please don't listen to him. The "quarrel in question" is simply the specific instance at this moment in time of a battle between the two editors that has been going on for over a year that has always been confined to a small group of articles related Nichiren Buddhist NRMs. User:Beyond My Ken and others supporting the proposal are simply showing their ignorance of "Japanese culture" (or perhaps their ignorance of my dispute with Catflap08 -- BMK has only been involved in two of the "dozen times" it has appeared on noticeboards, and most of the others even less so) by claiming otherwise. The full (not especially long considering the dispute has been going on for fourteen months) list of articles on which I have disputed with Catflap08 is as follows:

1. Kenji Miyazawa (in a very narrow capacity concerning the subject's relationship with the Kokuchūkai, a Nichiren Buddhist NRM)
2. Kokuchūkai (a Nichiren Buddhist NRM)
3. Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō (I still don't know what Catflap's problems with my edits were, since all I did was RM the page per WP:COMMONNAME and cut down several very long quotations that bore no relation to the article text, but Catflap apparently thought I was editing the article to be more amenable to the POV of Soka Gakkai, a Nichiren Buddhist NRM; note that I was hiding from an off-wiki stalker at the time so my edits were made under the IP "126.0.96.220")
4. Daisaku Ikeda (a figure notable as the leader of Soka Gakkai, a Nichiren Buddhist NRM)
5. Nichiren Buddhism (in a talk page discussion of the Nichiren Buddhist NRM Soka Gakkai's status within Nichiren Buddhism)
6. Karlsruhe (say what you want about me editing our article on a city that Catflap08 claimed was his current residence five days after my edit -- how on earth could I have known this when he never stated it on-wiki!? -- but it apparently is what Catflap08 and some others are discussing further up this thread as "evidence" that I was hounding him; additionally, the timeline of these events was highly suspicious and seems to prove pretty handilly that Catflap08 was engaged in off-wiki contact with another to violate our IBAN by proxy both before and immediately after it came into effect; given this information, I think most good-faith Wikipedians would conclude that Catflap08 was hounding me, not the other way round)
7. Korean influence on Japanese culture (Catflap08 violated the IBAN by showing up suddenly in an ANI discussion and supporting a PAGEBAN for me -- not really relevant, though)
8. Gyōson (as part of a massive drive by me to complete Wikipedia's coverage of the Ogura Hyakunin Isshu poets, I recently created an article on this prelate of Tendai Buddhism; in a manner of speaking, Tendai Buddhism looks kinda-sorta like Nichiren Buddhism, since they both revere the Lotus Sutra; Catflap08 and I have not directly interacted on the page, but my creating an article on a monk with a super-vague relationship to a sect of Buddhism that arose centuries after his death, which centuries later still gave rise to Nichiren Buddhist NRMs like Soka Gakkai and Kokuchūkai, may have possibly contributed to Catflap08's, rather absurd, assertion that I am "hounding" him)
9. Nichiren Shōshū (recent edits by me related the group's relationship with Soka Gakkai, a Nichiren Buddhist NRM, apparently led Catflap08 to believe that I am "hounding" him, although we have not directly interacted on the page and to the best of my knowledge the text I edited was never edited by him)
10. Nichiren Shū (I RMed the page recently in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME; three years ago Catflap08 was involved in a dispute with another editor on the page about the groups relationship with Soka Gakkai International, a Nichiren Buddhist NRM; Catflap08 and I have not directly interacted on the page, but my recent activity here is apparently what led Catflap08 to the assertion that I am "hounding" him)
11. Soka Gakkai (a Nichiren Buddhist NRM)
12. Nichirenism (a religio-political philosophy espoused by followers of the Kokuchūkai, a Nichiren Buddhist NRM; Catflap08 and I have not directly interacted on the page, but my recent activity here is apparently what led Catflap08 to the assertion that I am "hounding" him)
13. Shakubuku (not exclusively about Nichiren Buddhist NRMs, but the way Catflap wrote the article it certainly looked that way; Catflap08 and I have not directly interacted on the page, but my recent activity here is apparently what led Catflap08 to the assertion that I am "hounding" him)
14. Criticism of Buddhism (nothing to do with Nichiren Buddhist NRMs, but also nothing to do with this dispute; Catflap08 and I have not directly interacted on the page, but my recent activity here is apparently part of what led Catflap08 to the, rather absurd, assertion that I am "hounding" him)
15. Nichiren (my recent edits here do not relate to Nichiren Buddhist NRMs specifically, and no rational observer can claim to see any problem with said edits in and of themselves -- I was just trying to reformat the references so the tag at the top of the page could be removed -- but Catflap08 apparently believes that I am "hounding" him because I have been interested in Nichiren Buddhism since 2007 and have recently started editing Wikipedia articles relating to it; if someone thinks my edits to this page have been "disruptive", then please PAGEBAN me from this specific article, and TBAN me from NRMs based on Nichiren Buddhism)
16. Muju County (nothing to do with Nichiren Buddhist NRMs, but also nothing to do with this dispute; I inserted a disambig note linking to our article on Mujū, a Buddhist monk and contemporary/enemy of Nichiren; Catflap08 and I have not directly interacted on the page -- Catflap08 has never edited either page -- but my recent activity in an area even remotely related to Nichiren Buddhist NRMs is apparently part of what led Catflap08 to the, rather absurd, assertion that I am "hounding" him)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:36, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see Law of holes BMK (talk) 02:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken Are you insane? Why have you not fixed your TBAN proposal to accurately reflect the "common ground" between myself and Catflap08? Why do you insist on trying to get me indefinitely banned from the 90% of articles I regularly edit that have nothing whatsoever to do with Catflap08? Are you illiterate? Or am I missing some major area of this dispute that I have been involved in for over a year and you have only shown up recently to and pretended like you understand it better than I do? Or User:Sturmgewehr88? Or User:Wikimandia? Or User:Ubikwit? Or User:Nishidani? Or any of the other countless editors of Japan-related articles who have commented on this dispute and would be flabbergasted by your proposals? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:46, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I don't think it's particularly helpful to you or to the civility of this discussion to call me (and another editor) "insane", or to ask if I'm "illiterate" (especially since I'm quite obviously not - all these letter going together into words that make coherent sentences is rather proof of that). Your characterization of my motivations and actions is similarly incorrect, as anyone who reads this thread can verify. It's not about your content work, it's about your behavior and your attitude which are clearly a significant part of the reason why you and Catflap cannot get along. That this suggested topic ban would take you away from a subject area you really want to edit is no one's fault but that of the two of you, who could not exist under the previous IBan. In fact, the topic ban is devised to make you want to return to editing the subject area so much that you're willing to behave better to do so. Both of you. BMK (talk) 05:23, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand BMK's reasoning for "Japanese culture" (although I see it like killing a fly with a cannon), but his comparison with a TBAN from "US politics" by ArbCom recently is a little flawed; were the circumstances around that TBAN at all similar? I'm just guessing but I'm assuming that that case was an editor who caused problems across a random swath of articles that could only be grouped by "US politics". In this case, where the problem occurs specifically within articles related to Nichiren Buddhism, such a broad TBAN is unnecessary and overkill. You said that their net value as editors hasn't dropped to zero yet, so why treat them that way? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri, you're kind of making it more difficult to argue for you here. I know you're feeling frustrated, but please try easing up on the attacks, they don't reflect well on you. --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:13, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@Benlisquare: You are right, of course, and this is why I have already apologized for the epithet on my talk page. Several users, including Drmies and BMK himself just above hear, have told me (threatened me) that BMK's own ignorance of "Japanese culture" and his stubborn refusal to admit that he is wrong about the scope of this dispute despite everyone telling him so are now quite likely to result in me getting de facto banned from editing Wikipedia. Just because of a stupid misunderstanding on the part of one user with whom I have never disputed before. But questioning said user's sanity did go too far, and I apologize. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Having a quick look through each of the different article rating categories of WikiProject Japan, I'd estimate that a topic ban on Buddhist topics, even if enforced with a wide filter, would constitute 15-20% of all Japanese historical culture articles. That leaves around 80% of the remaining articles for Hijiri88 to continue working on, hopefully without any further violations of their interaction bans with other users. Hijiri88's ANI shenanigans don't appear to significantly fall outside of these realms, so it seems reasonable to provide a few inches of breathing space. You could even try working with a carrot-and-stick approach here; if, by any chance, the problem continues to worsen and their behaviour continues on articles outside of Buddhist topics, the response can be made more severe in reasonable and logical increments. If you allow them to dig deeper into their hole, you can justify further sanctions against them ("give them enough rope, and they'll hang themselves"), and if they do end up having less conflict working outside of Nichiren Buddhist topics, then it's a victory for everyone, is it not?

  I'm trying to point out the implications of a wide-filter topic ban on an extremely broad topic, from an outside perspective. A topic ban on Japanese culture would prohibit them from editing articles such as Guadalcanal Campaign, Enka, Bonsai and History of Toyota, topics which are completely unrelated to the string of ANI issues in question. Then there's the issue of proportions: I'll use myself as an example. These days I tend to steer clear of topics and articles on Wikipedia that I anticipate will bring me into a large conflict against another editor, however assume that I have caused a huge debacle, and needed to be topic banned. There are many different areas that I am involved with on Wikipedia; if I was topic banned from China-related articles I wouldn't be too overly concerned, since they only constitute around 20% of articles that I'm involved with today; the same applies for videogame articles, military history articles and language articles, each of which spanning anywhere between 20-25% of all content that I write. Now in regards to Hijiri88, it isn't far-fetched to state that 95% of what he writes is related to the topic of Japanese culture. After a topic ban, what would you like him to write about? I'm not arguing that he should be "let off", of course they'll need to learn from these long chains of ANI events, and take full responsibility like any adult should. My point is that the punishment needs to suit the circumstance, and a topic ban for Japanese culture doesn't seem to be the most constructive solution that will benefit everyone. --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, if the ban isnt wide, it just moves to a different set of articles in a different area Japanese culture. There needs to be a wide area, so that if one of them follows to an area outside of their normal area its easy to spot. Otherwise its an area they both want to edit in. AlbinoFerret 04:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I have no interest in narrowing the proposal myself, I'm satisfied that, if there is sufficient support for the proposal, the closing admin can evaluate the discussion and decide on that basis if the topic ban should be narrowed or expanded, or kept as originally set. BMK (talk) 05:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret, BMK: Where is the evidence that the dispute will move onto a different area of "Japanese culture"? It started fourteen months ago with a Nichiren Buddhist NRM, it was about a Nichiren Buddhist NRM when the IBAN was put in place, and is about a Nichiren Buddhist NRM now. Additionally, could you please define "Japanese culture"? Would I be banned from writing articles on 12th-century waka poets? If so: why? Catflap08 has never edited in this area, and he and I have never disputed over it. If the claim is that if a mutual TBAN were placed on "Nichiren Buddhist NRMs" then Catflap08 would follow me to 12th-century waka poets: AGF obliges me to disagree, and even if such a thing happened it would be a clear IBAN violation and could be dealt with if and when it happens. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support It seems both editors have failed to get the message from the IBAN. The underlying problem is not that the sanctions aren't well framed; the underlying problem is that these two editors refuse to grow up and learn to edit constructively. Then crying, "But... but... a TBAN will hurt my editing!" is missing the point. The easy way to keep editing where you want to edit was to cut the crap out and get on with it. That point is past. GoldenRing (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:GoldenRing: Have you read the above discussion? There is near-unanimous support (including from both me and I think Catflap08) for a TBAN from our shared topic area, but there is disagreement over what topic area this is: Beyond My Ken and AlbinoFerret say it is "Japanese culture"; Catflap08, Drmies, Sturmgewehr88, Benlisquare and I say different (the others appear to agree with me that the area is "Nichiren Buddhist NRMs", but I don't want to put words in their mouths); everyone else has been ambiguous. Please bear in mind that not only have Catflap08 and I never interacted on "Japanese culture" articles not related to Nichiren NRMs -- Catflap08 has never gone near such articles. Furthermore, the quote you give appears to be your own interpretation of something Catflap08 or myself has said -- please refrain from citing your own interpretations as though they were direct quotes, especially when said interpretations are not necessarily backed up by anything the other users said. Neither of us have said that the problem is that it would affect our editing -- of course it would! The problem, as stated by both Catflap and myself, not to mention several other users, is that the TBAN (as proposed by BMKand AlbinoFerret) bears little-to-no relation to the actual dispute. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:34, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I know, from the above discussion, that you find it hard to believe that anyone who disagrees with you could possibly have read the discussion. You're not exactly drowning us in contrition, are you? GoldenRing (talk) 15:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Its also possible, that having read most of the sections in the last month, that the surprise is because of the wall of text this has become, just like the others. AlbinoFerret 15:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Umm... you didn't answer my question. I asked if you had read the discussion because your post didn't make any sense -- which of the proposals do you "support"? Are your sarcastic comments about me meant to indicate that you want whatever will spite me the worst just because you don't like me? If so, may I ask why? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm trying to get a message through to you. Inelegantly and imperfectly, I'm sure, but a message nonetheless and a message for your good. My comments were not sarcastic: your standard response to anyone who disagrees is to question whether they have read the discussion. Perhaps it is time for you to question whether you have understood the situation instead. You don't seem to understand that you have caused a problem which the community now has to deal with. I don't think you should get to quibble over the scope of the workaround the community comes up with to deal with the fact you two can't get along. You don't seem to understand that any editing restriction put in place is not a solution to the problem, it is a workaround; the solution is for you to go and learn to work together with other people, both of you. Try going and doing that, instead of sticking your nose in to where the community is trying to find a way of limiting the damage you cause. If you don't, this is very likely to end up at arbcom and there, I suspect, a broad topic ban is less than you can expect. If that's where you want to go then ignore my advice, by all means. GoldenRing (talk) 03:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You are still insinuating that I have somehow causedx damage to the project even though no evidence has been presented of such and several users who have looked through my edits disagree. You say this damage needs to be limited by imposing the maximum possible sanction against me (a de facto site ban): why is a two-way topic ban from the topic area in question insufficient for this? You tell me to go and get along with other people and stop interfering with the community's deliberations -- you do realize that as long as this discussion is open I am unable to continue my normal Wikipedia activity since ALL of it involves "Japanese culture", don't you? You say you support BMK's proposal of a two-way TBAN from "our mutual editing area of Japanese culture" -- which is it, though? Our mutual editing area, or Japanese culture? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Fine, ignore my advice. And the advice of BMK below, which amounts to the same thing. I wish you well of it, but I don't hold out much hope. GoldenRing (talk) 10:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

What advice? Seriously, all you're doing is telling me my contributions are worthless and I'm no longer welcome on this website. I'd much rather listen to the advice of Drmies and Sturmgewehr88 and stay the fuck away from Catflap08 and the articles he edits -- why can't I just do that? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, there you take us into deep waters. Why indeed? If you both did that — or, even better, learned to just get along — we wouldn't be here, would we? If you can't see any advice in what BMK writes below, I suggest you read it again, carefully. GoldenRing (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You do understand that I've been trying to do one or the other of those for over a year now, right? Nichiren Buddhism falls into my normal field of editing anyway -- hence my editing those pages, and hence the majority of objective commenters agreeing that my editing those pages didn't qualify as hounding to begin with -- but I am willing to step away from those articles. There was the time I tried to initiate a talk page discussion on the Miyazawa Kenji article and Catflap08's immediate response was to complain about me on AN, or the time said AN thread was closed as abusive and instead of discussing with me he immediately opened an RFC, or the time the RFC turned against him and he violated it anyway, or the time I reverted his consensus violation and he opened another RFC rather than discussing with me on the talk page, or the time I posted a request on the Kokuchukai talk page to call it quits and work together and he spat in my face, or the time he requested an IBAN so I could not directly revert him, while at the same time striking a deal with another user to revert all my edits to the Miyazawa Kenji article once the IBAN was in place, or the time he himself reverted all my edits to the Kokuchukai article once the IBAN was in place ... When during this process have I been the one behaving in a belligerent manner? How can you justify the clearly-punitive-and-not-at-all-preventative nature of the proposed TBAN when the subject of the punitive measures is the one who throughout has been the one trying to make peace while being met with this? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:25, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Hijiri88 just left a harassing message on my talk page. It is more evidence that Hijiri88 will never stop making a nuisance of himself to other users editing in this field unless he is topic banned. When is enough enough with his disruptive behavior?TH1980 (talk) 04:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Some clarification might be required. In the past four months TH1980 has logged in to Wikipedia intermittently to post ad hominem remarks about me on article talk pages. He has followed me to four articles, and two ANI threads, all the while insisting that I am following him. He insists that he is sick of my "hounding", but every time we have interacted it has been TH1980 who has initiated it. I keep telling him to move on with his life and forget about me, but somehow he just keeps coming back and just keeps insisting that I am following him. It was amusing at first, but I am frankly getting a little fed up with it, which is what prompted the boldface in the above diff. I'm going to request the nearest grown-up to come and take a look at this because I don't have the energy right now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88: I suggest you take a couple of deep breaths, and then re-read your most recent comments. You are coming off in this discussion as such a total and complete asshole that I am sorely tempted to withdraw my proposal for a mutual topic ban for both you and Catflap, and replacing it with a proposal for an indef ban for you alone. You, sir, are your own worst enemy, and the fact that you are totally unaware of that is a matter of concern. Now, if you would take my advice (which I am sure you will not), I would suggest that you shut the fuck up until this thread is closed, and you may have a chance of coming out of this with only a topic ban, and not being banned from Wikipedia entirely. BMK (talk) 07:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, I note from your talk page that you told another editor that you couldn't apologize to John Carter and myself for your insults to us, because both of us have asked you not to post to our talk pages, but there's nothing stopping you from apologizing to us here for the remarks that you made here (calling both of us "insane" and myself "illiterate"), is there?. BMK (talk) 07:44, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, what exactly is so bad about my above summary of my (unrelated and entirely off-topic) dispute with TH1980 that it merits me being called an "asshole" and being told to "shut the fuck up"? I asked you "are you insane?" and was made to apologize, which I did multiple times, but your above epithets are by any measure worse.

Furthermore, my comment wasn't even that bad: TH1980 has posted in multiple venues about me "following" him, and has asked me several times to "leave him alone", and each time I have responded by, as politely as I could under the circumstances, pointing out that he was the one who had followed me to said venue, and that if he wanted me to leave him alone the best way would be for him to leave me alone. I have now done the same thing here, which resulted in him adding the above off-topic commentary to this thread.

As I am sure you can tell I'm quite exasperated with this at the moment, so I'll refrain from further comment until Nishidani or some other user with experience of TH1980's antics helps to deal with the matter.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I really don't care two figs how "exsperated" you are, I -- and I suspect many other editors -- are totally exasperated with you and Catflap, who cannot coexist with each other, cannot conform to the IBan you both agreed to, and constantly bring your conflicts back to the noticeboards, over and over again. What this proposal says is ENOUGH. You two have exhausted the patience of the community, and you need to be stopped. BMK (talk) 11:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

BMK, please don't refactor my posts. When I split my comment into several paragraphs, I prefer to place my sig directly below all of these paragraphs, not attach it to the final paragraph as though said had special significance. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: from your tone in the above comments and the fact that you yourself made this proposal (which I already see resulting in nothing again), I would say this isn't about "the community" being fed up, but just you. If the community were truly fed up, this thread would've already ended with TBANs or blocks with near-total consensus, but that's not the case at all. So go ahead and change your proposal to a one-way site ban, you already know that's not going to fly. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri asked me on my page but I prefer not to meddle. All I would note is that anything TH1980 has stated here should be ignored. He is totally incompetent in the Japanese Korean area, as the talk page where I interacted with him will document. He has no idea of polioy.Nishidani (talk) 11:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

That's your prerogative. At this point I really only wanted you to comment on TH1980 issue, which you have done. Thank you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Let the record show that Nishidani is an ally of Hijiri 88 who also harasses Wikipedia members. His "He has no idea of polioy [sic]" personal attack on me speaks volumes in this regard. Hijiri88 is also a hopeless liar about how I am the one harassing him, not vice versa--but that is no surprise, given how it is standard practice for bullies the world over.TH1980 (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Stop pinging me. Also, Nishidani is only my "ally" in that we both understand and make it a habit to follow Wikipedia's content policies and guidelines. I call him in to help me deal with issues on talk pages from time to time because (1) he's damned good at it, and (2) he and I hardly ever agree on anything other than the fact that you and that other guy are messing up the articles with your OR/CRUFT, so it cannot reasonably be called canvassing. (The same could be said, mind you, for my requesting WikiProject Japan to weigh in -- the majority of that project's members have a history of disagreement with me, and I'd say any given member probably agrees with my edits less than 40% of the time, but virtually all of them would be flabbergasted at the idea of me being TBANned from "Japanese culture" because of my recent edits to the Soka Gakkai and Kokuchukai articles.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't be silly. I've remonstrated with Hijiri often as any interaction talk page will show. On the other hand, I have had to revert you far more often, because of your incompetence in subjects like Japanese and Korean history.Nishidani (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Support per BMK - I think Hijiri88 has been editing in a fairly problematic manner in a variety of articles in this general field. I agree with user BMK that a topic ban should extend broadly into Japanese culture and history. Users who have already posted here like BMK and AlbinoFerret are evidently aware of instances of non-collaborative editing by Hijiri88 even well outside of his dispute with Catflap, but apart from those who have already commented, there are other editors who have noted the exact same thing. For instance, the user Snow Rise stated in a Japanese culture case from May unrelated to Catflap that Snow Rise "supported a topic ban on subjects relating to Japanese history and culture, broadly construed, since this is obviously an area where Hijiri cannot edit collaboratively with others and I suspect we shall be seeing him here again soon on a similar topic." Snow Rise proved correct in his theory that Hijiri's non-collaborative approach to editing would bring him back here again and again. User Jayron32 noted in the same case, unrelated to Catflap, that there was "a convincing case that Hijiri is not here to work with others, but has major WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:OWNership issues." The user Silk Tork was said to have reviewed Hijiri's editing based on information collected by the user John Carter, and concluded that Hijiri is "a brittle and hostile user who makes things difficult for themself and others". This last comment is of course amply proven by this very thread. Many of Hijiri's comments are clear violations of Wikipedia's policies on civility, and the shocking direct threats Hijiri was quoted above as making against the user TH1980 should not be considered acceptable in any context whatsoever. I think there are a lot of other good editors like Catflap08 and TH1980 who at first would have been more than happy to work with Hijiri if Hijiri hadn't spoken to them with such insulting language almost from the outset of meeting them. Actually, based on such evidence, Erpert may be right that even BMK's topic ban will not solve these far-reaching editing issues, but between Erpert's proposal for a site ban, and BMK's proposal for a broad topic ban, I suppose BMK's lenient solution can be attempted first before any harsher sanctions are resorted to.CurtisNaito (talk) 17:01, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I think you meant "BMK's proposal for a topic ban, don't you, CurtisNaito? ;) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I assume by "non-collaborative editing by Hijiri88 even well outside of his dispute with Catflap" what CurtisNaito actually means is "non-collaborative editing by me with Hijiri88 even well outside of Hijiri88's dispute with Catflap". Just look at the histories ofTalk:Emperor Jimmu, Talk:Soga–Mononobe conflict or Talk:Korean influence on Japanese culture to see me working collaboratively with a large number of users (Nishidani, Sturmgewehr88, Curly Turkey, Ubikwit, Phoenix7777 ...) with whom I almost never agree (and had several disagreements with on those pages) but still working together to find solutions to the problems those articles faced, while CurtisNaito was complaining the whole time that we "weren't editing collaboratively" because we were excluding him from most of the deliberations. Ask anyone (Nishidani would be particularly good at answering, IMO) why CurtisNaito is generally not listened to on talk pages relating to Japanese history and culture, but the answer will always be the same. Additionally, CurtisNaito himself appears to have some ego problems -- he recently declared that my contributions to classical Japanese poetry articles were crap because I used so-called "tertiary" sources like Keene's The History of Japanese Literature and the Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten, while proclaiming his articles on the Sino-Japanese War to be "Good Articles", even though they are mostly sourced to right-wing magazines, and only passed the "GA" review process because (by the reviewers' own admission) they do not speak Japanese and were unable to check the sources themselves.

If CurtisNaito is right, and BMK was in fact looking at my past disputes with CurtisNaito while forming the wording of his proposed TBAN on me and Catflap08, then I would kindly ask BMK to please be more open about his thought process, and maybe keep off-topic discussion to a minimum. Also, if the proposed TBAN is based on the history of CurtisNaito's disputes with me, Nishidani and Sturmgewehr88, may I ask why exactly CurtisNaito, Nishidani and Sturmgewehr88 are not also up for TBANs for these disputes? Why am I the only veteran of the Korean Influence and Emperor Jimmu disputes being discussed in this manner? Pretty much everyone who was involved in these disputes agreed that I was editing constructively and working hard to end disputes before they started, while CurtisNaito's own passive-aggressive, IDHT behaviour and constant reverting were not helpful and tended to drive other users to the point of using profanity.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:26, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose as farcically overbroad. I'd support a very narrow mutual topic ban for three months, restraining them both from new religious movement articles relating to Nichiren Buddhism. If that proves to not be quite wide enough, then widen it a little, in direct response to the problem as it surfaces. It is correct that the initial report of an IBAN violation is probably valid, as the edits by Hijiri88 do appear to target Catflap08, and H. did mention C. by name. H's counter-claim of an IBAN violation by C. is also valid; hiding continual discussion of H. by using the euphemism "the other editor", etc., doesn't magically evade the IBAN. It is not correct that raising an IBAN violation discussion is itself an IBAN violation, or people being hounded/harassed would never have any recourse even if their harasser were subject to an IBAN, since there would be no way to report the IBAN violation and continued harassment. Basic WP:COMMONSENSE. The observation by several (not just H.) that C. is acting in a WP:OWNish or WP:VESTED way toward some articles simply by having been at them first is also a valid concern. So is H.'s apparent editing at these articles in a way designed to irritated C., instead of to improve the article in any objectively identifiable way. All of this seems to be solved by getting both editors out of the same virtual room, without favoritism, and without hyperbolically overreactive "remedies" like trying to nuke either or both of them entirely out of their broadest-defined areas of interest. We're losing too many generally productive editors to go around decapitating them every time they get into a personality squabble.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC) Updated: 21:29, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• @SMcCandlish: I think it not unreasonable to point out to you that Catflap has stated in this thread that he edits the area of Nichiren Buddhism almost exclusively, and that the articles not related to Nichiren NRMs are generally stable and don't need as much attention. Soka Gakkai, in particular, is and has been a point of major contention for some time now, not unreasonably, given the political factors in Japan. And Catflap's history at that article is such that I can honestly say he might be the only active editor who has consistently worked to keep it up to reasonable quality levels. I do have to think that, effectively, banning him from what might not unreasonably be seen as being the only active area in his primary area of knowledge interest isn't much different from a site ban. John Carter (talk) 19:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Make it short-term then, enough to get them to back away from each other and rethink. Something has to be done, because neither of them, clearly, are taking an interaction ban seriously, and their continued disputation is affecting others. There months if often enough to bring about change.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:29, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose per benlisquare-In my opinion, it seems he was cooperative in the talk page before edition. Then I don't see how he is hounding Catflap08. Even user Catflap08 oppose the ban for Hijiri 88.Miracle dream (talk) 20:57, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

insert point

• Comment In my opinion Hijiri 88 is causing trouble in this discussion as a means of wearing people down to the point this latest proposed ban regarding him gets dropped. I do not think we should cave in here and let him have his way yet again.TH1980 (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

TH1980, I have asked you before to stop pinging me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

There's also the fact that a sanction discussion which is elongated unnecessarily by Hiriji's wall-of-text comments is much easier for editors reading AN/I to skip over, thinking that the issues will probably be too complex to get involved. Ironically, the issue here is extremely simple, and has nothing to do with subject-matter competence, it's simply that two editors cannot get along and keep bringing their beefs against each other to the noticeboards. I rather doubt that Hiriji does either of these things (wearing down and stretching out) deliberately as a tactic, I think he's just built that way.

I'm going to try to keep away from this discussion for a while, until it's run long enough to request closure, but let me say this as a final point. Catflap may be the more disruptive editor, I don't know, some people clearly think so, but there's one thing you have to say for them: they know when to stop talking and stop digging, something that Hiriji simply cannot seem to understand. But in any case, my proposal doesn't work unless both are sanctioned equally, and, despite the hopeful remarks of a few partisans, it has indeed gained a fair amount of traction: ignoring the two subjects, I believe we're at 9 supports and 4 opposes, with some days left to run. BMK (talk) 23:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

At this point there has been (in fact, at the point I started posting my wall-of-text comments there already had been) more than enough participation both from involved users and outside parties to form a consensus on the proposed TBAN one way or the other. The TBAN is not supported by the community. A TBAN on the common editing area of me and Catflap08 has some support; a TBAN on Japanese culture has some support; there are some users who oppose any form of sanction against me until it can be proven that I violated the IBAN or engaged in disruptive behaviour of some sort. Clearly nothing will come of it and ... well, has anyone else actually noticed that Catflap08 announced both here and on his user page that he was retiring, and hasn't edited at all in days? Is any of this still even necessary? If anyone still thinks my edits in such-and-such area were disruptive a TBAN discussion can take place, but wouldn't it make more sense to do so without all the clutter of "this isn't about your edits -- it's about your inability to work together with another user who has already left the project"? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the decision about whether the discussion has run long enough is not yours to make. The proposal has been open for only 4 days, which is less than the usual amount of time that sanction discussions are allowed to run, unless, of ocurse, they are runaways. Please stop trying to make this about me (another of your habits -- attempting deflection), it's clearly not about me, never was and never will be, it's about you and Catflap and your inability to get along without disruption to the community. BMK (talk) 01:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

BMK, did you even read my post before responding? I ask because your response appears to bear no relation whatsoever to my post.

I did not say the discussion had "run long" in a temporal sense: I said it was longer in terms of word count than probably any other ANI thread currently open, and had already seen more community participation than most such discussions, with no consensus in sight. You, AlbinoFerret and Ivanvector are in favour of a super-broad topic ban against me and the now-retired Catflap08; Drmies is in favour of a narrow topic ban against me but not the now-retired Catflap08; Sturmgewehr88 and Benlisquare are against a broad topic ban and appear to be ambivalent on a narrow topic ban for either me or the now-retired Catflap08; Wikimandia and a coupla others are against all sanctions proposed against me, with no explicit opinion on the now-retired Catflap08; several other users expressed support for some kind of topic ban, but given how your initial proposal was ambivalent on whether the topic ban should be on "our common editing area" or "Japanese culture", they can't reasonably be counted unless they explicitly state which of the proposed topic bans they support; John Carter, before Catflap08 retired, expressed neutrality on your proposal but favoured taking it to ArbCom, but it's really not clear how taking my dispute with the now-retired Catflap08 to ArbCom could be of any help when, as I hope I have now made clear to you, one of the two parties appears to have left the project.

When in my above comment was I "trying to make this about you"? You accuse me of making a habit of this, but as far as I can see this is in fact another instance of your habit of either failing to read other users' comments properly or deliberately ignoring the bits that don't support your argument. (Hence your complete failure to acknowledge my diligently listing every single article Catflap08 and I have disputed over or is even remotely related to the dispute -- if you actually read the list you would know how inappropriately broad your proposed topic ban is.)

You spend half of your response to me talking about how I am trying to make this about you when it is about me and Catflap08, but ... you ignored the half of my comment that was about Catflap08 having already retired. Could you please address what my comment actually said, rather than what you wish it said?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore: You earlier criticized me for "threatening" to retire from the project if your super-broad topic ban against me passed. But what about the other party, who actually did retire because of the mere suggestion that he be topic banned? (Let alone the distinct possibility that, like Catflap's earlier "retirements", it is just a stunt to gain sympathy.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:46, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Elongation, wearing down, deflection. BMK (talk) 03:46, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

There is a question regarding whether Hijiri88 is even able to acknowledge that anything he does might ever be counted as really "wrong," at least in situations where he is actively being discussed, such as this one. And the preposterous attempt to impugn Catflap08 in the above just once again calls to attention Hijiri88's attempts to rush to judge the conduct of editors with whom he is in disagreement in such a way as to deflect attention from his own misconduct. Catflap08 has been questioning whether editing here is worth the aggravation he receives from editing here, most recently almost exclusively from Hijiri88 himself, for some time now. To assert, despite the I think rather obviously visible evidence, that it is a "stunt" seems to me to be, considering Hijiri88's own recent conduct regarding this discussion, a rather blatant violation of WP:KETTLE. John Carter (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: When have I ever performed such a stunt in the past? We know Catflap08 did -- he pretended to retire in March, and the result was an overall increase in his editing output. And what you call a "stunt" on my part is me stating in a matter-of-fact way that the proposed super-broad TBAN is worded in such a manner as to drive me off Wikipedia. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the common editing ground of myself and Catflap08. No one has yet been able to locate a single edit by Catflap08 in the area of "Japanese culture, not Nichiren Buddhist NRMs". This is proof enough that BMK's assertion that in order to prevent further conflict between me and Catflap08 we need to both be banned from "Japanese culture" is overkill at best, and a deliberate attack on my editing without a hint of controversy in unrelated areas at worst.

Please, someone find one single edit by Catflap08 in the proposed TBAN area. ONE EDIT.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have just been subjected to another harassing message from Hijiri88 at my talk page. He is now threatening to request that I be blocked if I make an edits on a page he has contributed edits to. I submit his latest personal attack on me as further proof of his disruptive behavior.TH1980 (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• If he is topic-banned, I think that there is perhaps a real chance that, if the article is within the scope of the topic ban, that any discussion to that effect might itself be a violation of that topic ban, and, on that basis, grounds for some sort of block or other sanction. John Carter (talk) 21:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

TH1980, if you keep following me around like this you should be blocked per WP:HOUND. It is extremely frustrating and more than a little terrifying when you suddenly show up everywhere I do. Give it a break. Do something else. STOP FOLLOWING ME!

Also, if any topic ban is put in place, given John Carter's above threat, I would like it made clear whether other users are allowed unilaterally go around reverting my edits in such-and-such area.

But this is all beside the point -- "editing articles" I contribute to is not the real problem with TH1980's edits, and is not something I highlighted in the above diff. That's just more disruptive misrepresentation by TH1980. It's showing up any time I am involved in an ANI discussion and, without even reading the discussion, requesting that I be SITEBANned for unrelated past disputes with him.

23:15, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Its simply amazing. People show up and support site bans for you based on your behaviour. Then you blame it on them. I suggest you find a mirror next time you point a finger to find out who else is involved. AlbinoFerret 23:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret, how do you explain TH1980's article edits and talk page comments, then? If he were simply a good-faith user doing his duty by supporting "the community"'s efforts on ANI, then why was he already haranguing me on articles and their talk pages before this? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:56, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Not everyone takes this sort of criticism well, and in fairness TH1980 does clearly have past issues with the editor, which smells like unclean hands to me. Let's focus on the actual dispute between Catflap08 and Hijiri88, rather than their tempers as fired up by this ANI dispute and those coming out of the woodwork to pile wood on the fire.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment I disambiguated this section over 18 hours ago with what appeared to be a proximal unique disambiguation as there are multiple "Proposal" sections on the page at any time. Hijiri decided that they would revert the disambiguation title after they thought they understood what my intention was and claimed it was "Good faith mistake on ANI" on my talk page. Hijiri should know better than to attempt to wordsmith sections for which they are the cause of debate. Hijiri is free to propose an alternative disambiguation tag that takes into account both editors, however they should not be changing it on their own involved initiative over an uninvolved and independent third party. Hasteur (talk) 14:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

@Hasteur: It's extremely debatable, as the discussion above demonstrates, whether I or Catflap08 was the true cause of this debate. The proposal affects both of us, not just me. Your inserting my name, but not Catflap08's, was inappropriate, as I explained on your talk page. There is no need to disambiguate both, because this one will be closed and archived shortly, and you disambiguated the RetProf proposal as well. I have had just about enough of my name getting dragged through the mud over the past few weeks -- I've had Wikipedians I considered "friends" (at least as far as Wikipedia cohorts can be) state on-wiki that they think I should be TBANned, but admit to me in private that they know my "violations" were later than the same exact violations by other parties against me. I have had a user stalk my edits. Several, in fact. I have had two users (other than the ones who have been wiki-hounding me) who have never edited an article on Japanese culture in their Wikipedia careers say "oh, well obviously Hijiri88 should be TBANned indefinitely from Japanese culture -- all of his disruption has taken place within this area", while ignoring the fact that all of my non-disruptive edits also take place within this area.

I'm sorry if it seems like I am putting all this on you -- I know you have had nothing to do with the abuse I have had to endure -- but I would have appreciated that if you were going to revert me, you would take my reasoning into account and give a more neutral section heading that actually reflects the proposal in question.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

If your way to discuss is to first accuse and then take unilateral action over BRD (I don't know who reverted this back. I don't frankly want to know. But I've had just about enough of my name getting dragged through the mud over the past few weeks. This is ridiculous. Leave both names in the section title if you NEED to disambiguate.) then I am going to call for your head on a "Competence is required" pike. The page history is available and there is clear evidence of "Winning by wearing down opposition with TLDR" and "It's everyone's fault but mine". Your debate and editing style is disjoint with (as I understand it) the current consensus on wikipedia and has a high probability of your editing privileges being curtailed. Hasteur (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't accuse anyone of anything. The title "Proposal (Hijiri)" was inaccurate, so I changed it. When did I say anything was "everyone's fault but mine"? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Counterproposal

I'm going to say exactly what I said last time. This needs to go to ArbCom. ANI is clearly unable to deal with this situation. Editors here are recommending punitive measures purely for being sick of it all. To me this has become the equivalent of two little kids fighting in the back seat of the car and being told to stop it or else; one hits the other who bursts into tears and the frustrated parent punishes them both, even though the kid who got hit didn't do anything, and they both start fighting again. How many ANIs have these two been involved with? It just has to stop and it should come from ArbCom as any topic ban etc would likely result in appeals to them anyway. —Мандичка^YO 😜 04:30, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• It does not require community consensus to file a case request at ArbCom, but as long as this AN/I report is open, ArbCOm is unlikely to take the case. Their recent history has been to allow the community to handle the problem first. BMK (talk) 05:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, ArbCom won't raise a hand until ANI has been thoroughly tested and it's been repeatedly shown that community sanctions haven't worked. At this point, there is an existing iban and now a topic ban proposal. If the TBAN doesn't work either then by all means feel free to raise an request at ArbCom. 60.240.52.73 (talk) 13:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Forgot to log in. Blackmane (talk) 13:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Some might be surprised if this fails, that an arbcom case is started, I wont be. The editors in question should not be hoping for arbcom, because imho its more likely to end in blocks rather than topic bans. Topic bans, even if they are indef can end if the editor goes elsewhere on WP and shows they can work well with others, blocks are much harder to remove. AlbinoFerret 15:50, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

As an individual, I think that there may well be unique circumstances in this particular situation which might best be handled in more formal arbitration. I hesitate to say what they may be, but I believe this may well be a rather unusual situation in at least some regards which might benefit from what might be a more thorough review than might necessarily be possible here. John Carter (talk) 18:31, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything particularly unique in two editors being unable to get along, it happens all the time. Also, as AlbinoFerret points out, an ArbCom case for this is a crapshoot. In many situations it's fairly easy to foresee what the Committee is going to do, but in this one, I think it's just as likely that they'll deal out indef blocks for one or both as it is that topic bans will be the result. BMK (talk) 22:08, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything unique about this that ArbCom could speak to, or would be likely to act upon. It's two editors who don't like each other, who refuse to collaborate, and who are wasting far too much of the community's time with trying to police their ongoing conflict. Topic ban them both. Indefinitely. If they can show that they can edit constructively in other areas then they should have the opportunity to appeal in no less than a year. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Why exactly should I have to prove I can edit constructively in areas I have no interest in and/or knowledge of? The proposed TBAN parameters were arbitrarily selected to ban me from editing every article in any topic area I am remotely interested in, rather than to prevent me from editing in the (much, much narrower) topic area where there has been disruption. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The topic area really doesn't matter, except to be selected to prevent ongoing disruption. You should have to prove you can edit constructively at all. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: if you don't think Hijiri can edit constructively "at all", then you've obviously never looked through his contributions. Here's] your proof of constructive editing. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:35, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I believe what Ivanvector is referring to is the two editors' inability to edit without disruption. As I've said repeatedly, this is not about the ability to create content, it's about the behavior of Hijiri and Catflap. BMK (talk) 18:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Could Beyond My Ken, AlbinoFerret, and Ivanvector please stop and consider -- who is it that has been/still is causing disruption here?

Where is the evidence that disruption on my part led to an IBAN? The initial IBAN discussion saw two users (Catflap08 and John Carter) claiming I was abusive, two users (Sturmgewehr88 and myself) saying Catflap08 and John Carter were disruptive, and a whole bunch of other users saying "I don't know who's right and who's wrong, but the best solution here would probably be to separate them".

Where is the evidence that the recent disruption since the IBAN was mine? Virtually everyone except maybe Drmies (who gave Catflap08 a slap on the wrist for his violations but blocked me) has acknowledged that Catflap08 and not I had violated the IBAN numerous times.

Where is the evidence that any of the proposed solutions would solve whatever problems still exist? A mutual or one-way (for me) TBAN on "Nichiren Buddhist NRMs" is the most logical solution and appears to have the broadest support among the community -- even Drmies backs it, despite early comments by BMK and Ivanvector misrepresenting him as being on their side. But is even that necessary when Catflap08 has been "retired" for over half a week already? Is the insinuation here that I need to be restricted to prevent me from grave-dancing? Where is the evidence that I will do something like that? I haven't gone around systematically reverting all of the edits of any of these users -- when in the past have I ever either done or threatened to do such a thing?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:08, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I have thought about it again, you two still need a topic ban. Every post you make makes me (and probably anyone who reads them) believe you need a topic ban. You are digging a deeper hole. AlbinoFerret 14:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

The reason why I keep suggesting this topic be brought to ArbCom is because ANI has failed so far to deal with this, over and over. Yes, Hijiri88 is long-winded, but there's nothing that says one must be brief here, and I truly don't believe it is some malicious plot. —Мандичка^YO 😜 17:02, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

As I've said, you're free to file a case request at any time, but a number of editors have reported as to what the expected outcome of that would be at the moment. BMK (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I haven't misrepresented anyone. I referred to exactly two comments made by Drmies: one, the "the ongoing and ever-increasing exasperation of the rest of the editors", and two, "just f***ing zip it". I interpret one as an accurate observation that you are wearing the community's patience thin, and two as an expression of frustration that we keep having to hear about the two of you. Sturmgewehr88 is right, I have never looked through Hijiri's contributions. Editors who are constructive and collaborative contributors don't get blocked for crossing ibans because they don't have ibans in the first place, and don't have 18,000-word, 120,000-byte threads at ANI about their conduct after having been asked by an administrator in a previous ANI thread to shut up. I'll add a three from Drmies' previous close: "boy would I like to put a stop to this." Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• Admins, are we closing this yet? Consider issuing a narrow topic ban as outlined above, the kind of topic ban which, if I read their comments correctly, even Hijiri agrees with. Someone cut this Gordian knot. Drmies (talk) 23:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• The discussion was opened on the 20th, before Catflap, apparently from what I have been able to determine, finally may have retired outright due to the misconduct of others involved in this thread, with much of that misconduct directly visible here. That being the case, I suppose it might make some sense to let the discussion wind down naturally, after the full seven days have elapsed. Somehow, I have a feeling at least one person here is perhaps going to continue to argue every point he can think of, be it rational or irrational, and on that basis I suppose it might make sense to give him as little reason to argue later as possible. John Carter (talk) 00:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• We must keep in mind, though, that the very large majority of editors commenting on this case favor the broad topic ban proposed by BMK.TH1980 (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• It's currently 10 in favor, 6 against, and 1 neutral, with some of the supporters prefering a narrow TBAN. Hardly a "very large" majority. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:47, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• Well... not really. It's true that both Catflap and Hijiri gave "oppose" !votes, but all that really means is that, if the mutual topic ban proposal is implemented, it's not being done voluntarily -- so those two opposes can be ignored. That means 10 supports and 4 against by your count. (Who is the neutral, BYW?) What's interesting is that virtually everybody in this discussion says that there is ongoing disruption, the difference is that the "supports" see a potential solution in the mutual topic bans, while most of the "opposes" point the finger of blame in various directions. It's virtually unanimous that there's disruption which needs to be dealt with, a fact which I hope the closer of this discussion will take into consideration. BMK (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• Incidentally, the fact that we just got another editor's opinion is an indication that this thread is not, at least, overripe for closure. I was thing of waiting for 7 days after the opening of the thread, presuming that there hadn't been any new !votes in the previous 24 hours, before asking for closure. BMK (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Beyond My Ken: John Carter cast the neutral !vote. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 04:29, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, of course, thank you. BMK (talk) 04:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd just like to note here that the above support counts appear to include both TH1980 and CurtisNaito, two users who were quite open about their !votes being based on their pre-existent opinions of me rather than any actual evidence relevant to THIS situation. Both users have an established history of wiki-stalking me, as Nishidani attested above. It should also be pointed out that TH1980's claim of broad support for a "Japanese culture" TBAN is unfounded. Disregarding said wiki-stalkers, we have only three explicit supports (BMK, AlbinoFerret and Ivanvector) for the super-broad TBAN that covers mostly articles irrelevant to this dispute, and one explicit oppose (Drmies said he would support a narrow TBAN, not a broad one) being inadvisedly counted as a support. Additionally, it should also be noted that Catflap08 appears to have left the project, and the proposed super-broad ban covers mostly topic areas he never edited to begin with. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

And I would like to note that the above comment is at best only at best partially supported by the facts, on this same page, What Nishidani said above, and I quote, is "All I would note is that anything TH1980 has stated here should be ignored," along with some other comments about that editor. At no point that I can see did he say anyone has "an established history of wiki-stalking" Hijiri88, as he attests above. The fact that Hijiri88 is once again engaging in transparently dishonest representations of the statements of others to support his own statements is I believe a serious enough problem as per WP:HONESTY to in and of itself raise questions.

Also, I think it worth noting that the reason I had stated earlier that I would not offer an "official" !vote was because that I was somewhat sympathetic to one of the parties involved, User:Catflap08, who has, so far as I can tell, finally done what he has been considering doing for some time and retiring from wikipedia. I hesitated to cast a !vote to limit him based on the conduct I had had with him earlier. I have never had any particular objection to sanctions against Hijiri88, however, and the conduct he has engaged in on this thread is to my eyes sufficient to believe that he should not be allowed to continue in like manner without facing the prospect of some sort of sanctions. John Carter (talk) 17:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

It does look like Catflap08 has retired. In that case I think this thread should be closed. I don't see much proof that H88 was really hounding in this complaint, so perhaps it's time to retire this thread as well. —Мандичка^YO 😜 11:45, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the retirement was in April. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey, is it actually standard practice to disregard the !votes of users directly affected by a two-way TBAN proposal? I have never heard of this practice before. I can understand not counting a user's individual request that they not receive a one-way ban if everyone else agrees that they should be banned, but in this case both the initial proposal and most of the "supports" have been for a mutual TBAN, and Catflap08 and I have expressed conflicting views on it. Catflap08 opposed any TBAN for himself, apparently rejecting all sanctions that weren't one-way sanctions on me; I expressed pretty strong support for a two-way TBAN on the relatively narrow area Catflap08 and I have in common, while opposing the super-broad TBAN. Drmies explicitly opposed both a mutual TBAN and a broad TBAN, saying he might support a narrow TBAN on me. At least two other "supports" were unclear. Several more users expressed explicit opposition to sanctions against me than opposition to sanctions against Catflap08. Of the three users who aren't explicitly in favour of a two-way, broad TBAN but appear to be in favour of some sort of TBAN (Drmies, Sturmgewehr88 and myself), all three are explicitly opposed to a broad TBAN. Of the six editors in favour of a broad TBAN (BMK, AlbinoFerret, GoldenRing, Ivanvector BMK, John Carter, TH1980 and CurtisNaito), the lattet two almost certainly need to be discarded since they are not !voting based on the evidence presented here but based on their personal dislike of me, as indicated by their complete reliance on external, unrelated "evidence", their not expressing any opinion at all on whether the MUTUAL TBAN proposal should apply to Catflap08 and one of them not knowing who originally made the proposal (clearly not having read the discussion). AlbinoFerret and TH1980 have in the past couple of days been spinning this highly-complex !vote breakdown as some kind of a 2.5-1 advantage in favour of a broad TBAN, when it really isn't borne out by the numbers. When 3/4 of the people asked what they mean by "support" say explicitly that they support a narrow ban and oppose a broad one, we can't just go assuming that everyone else must be supporting a broad ban.

Also, John Carter has explicitly stated above that the mutual nature of the proposal is why he has remained "neutral" on whether a ban should be put in place at all -- in layman's terms, he likes Catflap08, and he doesn't like me. Why, then, is he not equally neutral on the scope of the mutual ban? Why does he care whether his friend and his enemy are equally banned from "Nichiren Buddhist NRMs" or "Japanese culture"? It couldn't be that one of these options is actually mutual, and the other is tilted against one party more than the other, could it? A large number of users have explicitly pointed out that "Japanese culture" is not "common" to me and Catflap08; it is my area of interest. Our actual common area of interest is much narrower, and John Carter is propping up the option that hits my harder and hits Catflap08 the same either way.

Nd if, as John Carter has been claiming above (Ctrl+F "stunt"), Catflap08 is sincere in his recent "retirement" statements, this whole debate is moot anyway, since my dispute with Catflap08 can't cause further disruption if Catflap08 is no longer part of the project.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stabila711 (talk • contribs) Note: SineBot seems to be referring to this edit. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri, I have come to the conclusion that you are fanatically, if not obsessively, devoted to spin control at virtually any or all costs. I realize that your above attempt at spin control is simply another in your history of such edits, which you seem to have little if any control over. I will repeat what I have said before in this thread. Your conduct here has been nothing less than disgraceful, and several people here have already noted that. Perhaps you have had some provocation, as have others, but that in no way frees you from any responsibility for your own actions. Also, as I have noted before, you seem to be at best dubiously capable of ever believing anything you do could be wrong. Certainly, I cannot remember ever seeing you admit the possibility of error on your part. So yes, in you I see someone who has on more than one occasion rather obviously, hypocritically, sought to impose on others standards of behaviour which you frankly refuse to abide by yourself. No reasonable person would expect anyone to "like" someone who so regularly engages in what could reasonably be described as transparent hypocrisy. And, honestly, I have seen that ever since what I can only describe as a temper tantrum at [Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention]], regarding Catflap's nomination. And, frankly, I am nothing less than disgusted by your statement above, which seems to me to indicate that you think you should be freed from any responsibility for your actions if you have successfully harassed the other party involved off the project. I very sincerely hope, for your own benefit, that you realize that should you continue to indulge in behaviour of the type you have rather consistently displayed throughout virtually the entire period I have dealt with you, there would be no reason to believe you would escape some sort of disciplinary measures the next time you indulge in such behaviour, whether you in that theoretical instance continue to blame others for your misconduct or not. John Carter (talk) 19:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

For once I agree with Hijiri88. Since we seem to lack the willingness to put a stop to clearly disruptive editors before they drive other productive contributors away from the project, we have allowed yet another clearly disruptive editor to drive another productive contributor away from the project. The damage is done, then; we can't do anything more here to prevent it. Any new blocks coming out of this are clearly punitive which is not allowed by policy. All we're doing here now is wikilawyering about whether or not different editors' comments are valid or not, and there's no point to it. I withdraw my support for any sanctions for Hijiri88. I'm sure I'll see you all again when Nichiren Buddhism becomes yet another general sanctions cesspool. Good work, team. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Withdrawing my withdrawal above in light of Catflap having returned, and there still being an ongoing dispute. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 19:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Its also common for users canvassed into the discussion to have less effect on the outcome. There are posts by Hijiri88 above that could be considered canvassing. 2 Where he pinged editors[19][20] and one that deals with a non neutral notification on a project page[21], and one a post to a user page of an editor who helps him with other users who he disagrees with [22]. If these factors are taken into account he has very little editors comments to support his desired outcome. AlbinoFerret 14:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm sure Catflap will be back--"retired" here means "temporarily driven off", possibly in disgust. Hijiri88, for the life of me, I don't understand how you can go canvassing around for a thread like this--are you just trying to make yourself look bad? Don't answer that. Some admin might block you for it. Drmies (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Requesting closure

I think the required seven days have passed. If anyone wants to weigh through the wall of words this thread is and draw a conclusion regarding the outcome, that would be most appreciated. John Carter (talk) 14:57, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, high time to close this. If it results in no sanctions, I'll be disappointed; the discussion above on its own highly merits them (and note that Hijiri is sticking his very sizeable oar into another discussion further down this page). GoldenRing (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I too will be disappointed if no sanctions are levied. We have a situation here that is clearly out of hand that warrants strict corrective measures.TH1980 (talk) 15:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I have added a request to WP:ANRFC AlbinoFerret 17:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Hi admin--please consider looking for a consensus for the narrow topic ban proposed above for Hijiri. Topic banning both editors the same way is highly unfair to Catflap, who was not the bad guy here and who would suffer in a very different measure. Drmies (talk) 19:33, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

It is probably worth noting that Catflap will probably remain active in the WF entities in general, probably particularly the German wikipedia. But this is also a controversial content area here, particularly regarding Soka Gakkai and a few other related topics, and the more informed, competent, and effective editors we have available the better off we will be. John Carter (talk) 17:01, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: "Catflap, who was not the bad guy here" are you kidding me? He constantly, although following the letter of the IBAN, showed total contempt for the spirit of the IBAN. I'm also convinced that he asked John Carter to proxy for him on the Kenji Miyazawa article via email (plus there was that "you editied my hometown" conspiracy). And now he is yet again pulling this retirement stunt. He deserves blocks or bans just as much or more than Hijiri. Both should be banned from Nichiren Buddhism articles. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 17:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• I am not kidding you, and if I were you I would be very careful about making unfounded accusations about proxying. That is a pretty serious violation of AGF, and thus of NPA. I got more acronyms if you need them. As for the "hometown conspiracy"--there is no conspiracy, and Hijiri made that edit. As I said before, it was a while ago, so it's not that big of a deal, but it did happen. That you can't seem to find the evidence is your problem, not mine. Drmies (talk) 17:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• It should be noted that I when I sought to send information to Hijiri that I recovered from various databanks, it had to be through Sturmgewehr. I have no reservations whatsoever actually about allowing access to my e-mail records to someone trustworthy. I wonder if Hijiri and Sturmgewehr can say the same thing. John Carter (talk) 17:47, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Some points the closing admin may wish to consider:

• This is a long term dispute. I was going to comb through the archives and post the large number of noticeboard threads concerning these two editors, but, frankly, the thought of doing so was onerous, so I'll just suggest that you use the search facility and check for yourself.
• In other words, my proposal, which seems totally out of scale for the reported problem, is provoked by the history of disruption to the community caused by the length and public nature of the conflict, and not by the specific incident.
• My proposal was for standard indefinite indefinite standard topic bans from the subject area of "Japanese culture" for both editors involved, Catflap09 and Hijiri88.
• This is clearly not a slam dunk in terms of support for my proposal, but, as I mentioned above, it is nearly universal that all commenters see disruption, that the locus is these two editors, and that something needs to be done.
• The difference between the supporters and the oppposers is that the opposers cannot agree as to which individual editor is responsible, pointing fingers in both directions.
• Despite there not being a snow consensus for my proposal, there is a clear consensus that something needs to be done here. Failing to levy some kind of sanction would be, I think, a disservice to the community.
• The previously imposed IBan has not been effective in quelling the disruption.
• As Drmies says, there is sentiment -- from opposing voters, primarily -- that the scope of my proposed sanction is too broad, and that it may be possible to see a consensus for narrower mutual topic bans. While I wouldn't object to that, I do agree with AlbinoFerret that the dispute is just as likely to move to another area. However, again, some sanction, some attempt to stop the bleeding, would be better than nothing.
• Catflap09's "retirement" should not be considered, as it's been up since April, and he has continued editing. In all likelihood, he will return to editing.
• Finally, it's worth noting Hijiri's misbehavior in this very discussion: personal attacks, failure to AGF, borderline harassment, and, worst of all, blatant canvassing, both in the thread and elsewhere, when he posted a non-neutral pointer to the discussion at the Japan Project containing an implicit threat to quit editing Wikipedia if he didn't get support from the editors there. Such behavior should not go unsanctioned.
• Good luck!

BMK (talk) 18:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

How are indefinite topic bans from the subject area of "Japanese culture" "standard? Can you provide some precedent for that? A mutual TBAN in a broad area that covers all of one party's edits even though the other party only ever edits in a very small sub-section of said area, and thus 100% of the disruption has taken place in the small sub-section? I'm sure the closing admin would like to see some kind of evidence for this being in any way "standard"... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

The topic ban itself is a standard one, i.e. all the terms of a standard topic ban apply. The specifics in this case are the subject area, i.e. Japanese culture, and the time period, i.e. indefinite, (which of course does not mean "infinite"). Those are not standard, because they're different from topic ban to topic ban, but the terms of the ban itself are standard, and any admin looking to apply a block based on thse bans should be familiar with those terms, and doesn't have to look up specifics about the terms of these topic bans. I hope that's clear to you.

I'm not sure what you mean by "precedent" in regard to this -- this is not a court of law, and we are neither judges nor a jury. We are a community of editors, and the community can put into effect any kind of sanction it wishes to, if there is consensus to do so. In this case, the proposal called for 2 topic bans, one for each of you, and the closer is called upon to determine if there was a consensus in this discussion for that proposed sanction, or for some other sanction. There's nothing unusual in any of that, it's entirely within the purview of the community, and of the closing admin. BMK (talk) 00:33, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I have reversed the order of "indefinite" and "standard" to make my point clearer. BMK (talk) 00:39, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood me. My problem is not with the length, but the scope. If the point of a TBAN is (as you and others have said above) to allow me and Catflap08 to demonstrate that we can edit constructively in other areas, then why does it cover such a broad area as to force at least one of us off Wikipedia? I have never shown any interest in editing articles outside the "Japanese culture" area; this is because Wikipedia is voluntary, I edit because I enjoy it, and I don't enjoy writing about subjects (a) of which I have no specialist knowledge and (b) in which I have no interest. I can't edit constructively without causing disruption, if I can't edit period. On top of this, as demonstrated much further up the thread, all of the disruption has taken place within the area of Nichiren Buddhist new religious movements. No evidence has been presented of any disruption in any article on "Japanese culture" that was not centered around this narrow area; indeed, no evidence has been presented of Catflap08 ever having edited any article on "Japanese culture" that was not centered around this narrow area. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:44, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

The scope of topic bans can be everything from extremely narrow to extremely broad. I have suggested what I thought was appropriate, and the editors who !voted "support" agreed. Other editors have disagreed -- fine, let's see what kind of consensus the closer finds, if any. BMK (talk) 01:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

There does seem to be consensus for some form of sanctions. If the closing admin finds that the consensus for sanctions is sufficient, but, perhaps, that no particular sanctions proposed have sufficient support, I think that there might be precedent, somewhere, to keep the thread open or reopen another one with a broader range of possible sanctions. God knows I don't wanna see this drag on any longer than it has to, but if the closing admin deems it reasonable, I guess we would have to live with it. John Carter (talk) 14:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I’d like to insert that it is not my intention to see Hijirii88 banned on Japanese Culture even though I find their edits in other areas quite disturbing (especially in lacking respect for other editors reading the notes accompanying edits) those areas are not my business though. At the very beginning of this thread I gave the reasons for why I think a TBAN on Hijirii88 regarding topics falling within the category of Nichiren Buddhsim would be beneficial. May I say that it was not me who was blocked for 72h and it was Hijirii88 who popped up on Nichiren related articles they never really showed up on before? The IBAN does not seem to work – and there do seem to be ways round it. The reason for me starting this ANI is simply that if Hijirii88 would have continued editing on Nichiren related matters (defined by a category) I would not have been able to further edit the only area I am basically active on - without violating the IBAN. May I also say that I usually work on Nichiren Buddhist matters only in general? Articles dealing with major historic figures and traditional schools within Nichiren Budhism are fairly “quiet” anyways – there just is no controversy as compared to those Nichiren groups being regarded as new religious movements. This is also the very reason I do not edit articles (except the talk page), such as Soka Gakkai, in major ways anymore. In the article on SGI there is so much POV that I could not care less anymore as the project does not seem to care either, so why bother? Since the outcome of this is still open I would like to thank those who joined adding information on Nichiren Buddhism in general – since I was once an adherent of one of those new religious movements based on Nichiren Buddhism (now not affiliated with any school or group) Wikipedia helped in replacing myths, lies and ignorance about Nichiren Buddhism in general with facts. This is what I came here for. --Catflap08 (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88 has harassed CurtisNaito on a closed good article review (see here), and has been involved in further hounding on the Talk:History of Japan#Article should not be citing Jared Diamond talk page. I have warned Hijiri88 for vandalism on History of Japan (I believe he also crossed the 3RR), to which he simply removed my warning from his talk.  — Calvin999 16:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Note that some days after the request for closure on this ANI thread was placed, and all participants agreed to wait for the closure and accept whatever consensus statement is drawn by the closing admin, I got involved in a completely unrelated content dispute on the History of Japan article. There was no "vandalism", and whether "edit-warring" has taken place is up for grabs (if one side has two or more users and therefore doesn't technically violate 3RR, but also refuses to engage in talk page discussion, does it count as an edit war?). Calvin999 showed up out of nowhere and started making several gross personal attacks and threats against me, and apparently looked through my edit history to find out that there had recently been an ANI thread about me. Without checking what the current status of the thread, he posted the above off-topic rant about how I am "harassing" the other user in the dispute (whose own comment in this thread shows quite the opposite). I am trying to engage in civilized talk page discussion, but have received threats and personal attacks from one user, blank reverts without any attempt to use the talk page from another, and blank reverts with some talk-page-based off-topic avoidance of the issues from another. Full disclosure, I have emailed an administrator (Cuchullain -- I don't want to ping him for fear he'll comment here and exacerbate the problem) to look into the problem with Calvin999. The personal remarks are annoying, but it's the threats that I'm worried about. Please, no one else comment on this here. Just ignore it. If you want to weigh in on the content dispute, all input is still welcome. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:10, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

As has already been noted in this thread, Hijiri has a tendency to issue disturbing threats against other editors who criticize him. However, what's even more concerning is that he follows through with his threats by harassing these editors. Not long after I suggested that Hijiri be page banned he responded by posting negative messages on my good article review for Iwane Matsui. Hijiri had taken no interest in good article reviews before then, and the reviewer found his concerns to be without foundation. Now after I have posted a message about Hijiri in this thread, he responded by doing the same thing, posting negative messages on a recent good article review of mine, even though he had shown no interest in good article reviews before. The fact that his behavior constituted harassment and disruptive editing was clearly pointed out by the user Calvin999 on multiple occasions. Meanwhile Hijiri posted several harassing messages on my talk page. During a simultaneous dispute on the talk page at History of Japan he canvassed both Nishidani and Sturmgewehr88, the exact same users he was explicitly warned about canvassing in this very thread! All these policy violations would be enough to fill an entire thread, but since this thread is still open, I figured I would post it here.CurtisNaito (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

This is the same sort of stalking and harassment I have experienced (including this recent harassing message Hijiri left on my talk page). This is the same sort of stalking and harassment that Catflap08 demonstrated at the start of the thread, and the same sort of stalking and harassment many other editors have experienced.TH1980 (talk) 21:12, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

TH1980 has been engaged in a slow-motion hounding campaign of me over the past four months. I plan on doing something about this once the present Catflap08 mess has wound down -- I won't post all the evidence until then, but it's there, as you can see in his edit history. He recently showed up on the History of Japan article, having never edited it before or shown any interest in it, and reverted me. CurtisNaito and two of his cronies (TH1980 and Calvin999) have been edit-warring to preserve a controversial version of the article. Neither Calvin999 nor TH1980 have made any attempt whatsoever to use the talk page, and CurtisNaito has been all-but copy-pasting the same comment over and over again, not actually addressing other users' concerns. The edit war is over whether some controversial (unsourced, OR, misrepresentation of sources, sourced to an unreliable opinion piece) material should be tagged as such while discussion on the talk page takes place. Every outside editor who has weighed in has agreed with my POV on the content dispute, because I am right (as I have been in all of my past disputes with these editors -- they simple don't understand our content policies; see here). If I violated 3RR, I apologize. But I am not the one who has been "edit-warring", since I was until User:Sturmgewehr88 showed up the only one attempting to engage in discussion on the talk page -- the ones who don't use the talk page are the ones who were edit-warring. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

For everyone's information, I have had an interest in Japanese history for some time. I was recently browsing the history of Japan article and its talk page when I noticed the recent dispute there. I am dismayed by Hijiri88's penchant for splitting hairs as to whether or not a source is reliable, especially when it is written by as noted a scholar as Jared Diamond.TH1980 (talk) 03:44, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

For the sake of this already finished and waiting to be closed ANI discussion, I will not address all of CurtisNaito's above off-topic, content-dispute related comments. However, it needs to be pointed out that the reason I had not taken an interest in GA reviews until just before the Iwane Matsui affair was because I don't much care for petty medals. CurtisNaito, on the other hand asserted that I had contributed nothing of worth to Wikipedia's coverage of Japanese history because he had created more "GA" articles than I had. Both the "good article" in question had at review and still have now serious sourcing issues, and in the case of the Iwane Matsui article the reviewer admitted he was unable to read 95% of the article's sources. Now enough of this off-topic content discussion on ANI already! Let some admin close this thread however they see fit, and take the content dispute back to the talk page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:52, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I see why your in such a hurry to close. More is coming out about your behaviour. I hope the closer takes into account that you are now harassing those that oppose you. Perhaps a nice indef Block is needed. AlbinoFerret 18:08, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

(e-c) Hijiri, your refusal to address concerns of others is noted, as is your discussion of off-topic, content-dispute related content and how it has no place here, which, in all honesty, is more than a little amusing considering how you had above said Catflap didn't know a damn thing about some content with which you had been in disagreement with him. This would seem to my eyes to be at least the second time WP:KETTLE could be reasonably invoked regarding your behavior here. If, and although I do not want to predict the outcome, I think there is a reasonable chance that it will end in at least some further sanctions against Hijiri, I hope he realizes, if that does come to pass, that, should he continue to engage in the problematic conduct which has been displayed not only in the links in previous discussions regarding him here, and, in fact, in his own conduct in this thread, there is a very real chance that the sanctions will be that much stronger, and, basically, there aren't that many possible sanctions stronger than a topic ban. John Carter (talk) 18:13, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'll bite. I have been trying to discuss on the article talk page. CurtisNaito and Calvin999 have been blankly reverting me, ignoring the concerns of me and other users on the talk page, and have now taken the content dispute to ANI rather than going through the normal dispute resolution process. I agree with the two of you -- I hope the closing admin does look at the History of Japan dispute and take it into account (something it's quite clear neither of you have done).

Closer: Please look at the History of Japan dispute and tell off either me, Sturmgewehr88, Phoenix7777 and Vivexdino, or CurtisNaito, Rjensen, TH1980 and Calvin999 as appropriate. I'm sure both AlbinoFerret and John Carter would be very interested in what you have to say. (Note that another admin has already been invited to look into the dispute, though.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 18:34, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

And throughout all that time, you as an individual have shown by your behaviour, bluntly, the self-aggrandizement and paranoia which has been rather obvious in your conduct for some time. And nothing in the above comment, which us apparently supposed to be taken as an attempt to address the concerns of the previous comment I made, even remotely relates to it. I will try to say this in a way that even you might be forced to see it. You are responsible for your conduct. You have regularly engaged in gross insults, unfounded allegations, and other grossly obnoxious behaviour, in this thread and elsewhere, which can and I believe do raise in the minds of several whether you are even remotely competent to adhere to the behaviour guidelines we are all supposed to follow. Failure to address those concerns regarding your own conduct is, at best, not in your interests.

Should your conduct continue to regularly fail to meet even the most basic standards of reasonable conduct as per our conduct guidelines, which I strongly suggest you at some point maybe look over, the disruption caused by your obfuscations, attempts and misdirection, and other misconduct honestly leaves little if any option to others but some sort of external sanction. Considering you are already under low-level sanctions, that only leaves the higher-level sanctions as viable options. I believe more than one person, including BMK, has said your conduct in this thread is completely inappropriate. I very much doubt anyone other than perhaps you will see how your attempt to apparently continue to refuse to even consider dealing with the frankly, at times, repulsive conduct you so regularly have engaged in in multiple discussions, and which has been pointed in multiple discussions at ANI and elsewhere, and efforts at blaming the other guy for your own misconduct, will be at all sufficient grounds to not impose sanctions on you.John Carter (talk) 19:05, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Since I think we're just spinning our wheels at this point, I've posted a request for closure on AN, here. BMK (talk) 22:32, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, BMK. That is certainly the best way to deal with it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Even though I do find other editors coming forward indeed interesting - when it come s to general conduct, but must underline that this thread cannot be a hanger for their own quarrels with Hijirii88. All that I wanted to know is how and under what circumstances I can edit within the category I have gathered an expertise, without corrupting the current IBAN. I do not pride myself with being fairly neutral on Nichiren Buddhist related matters, but others have said so too that I am – even off Wikipedia. My prime objective focus is to keep articles based on Nichiren Buddhism being based on facts. Deleting references is just not on. One might question them but then there has to be hell of a Consensus not only by numbers but on content.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:26, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• In what may be a vain hope that this may still be dealt with by an admin closure, I'm adding this comment so that the thread doesn't scroll off the board, however, if a few more days pass, I'll be forced to conclude that no admin is interested in dealing with it, and I'll cease taking action to keep it open and give it up as a loss. Others may do as they wish. It's now been 2 weeks since the discussion was begun. BMK (talk) 12:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

At risk of drawing attention away from the earnest, sincere, and heartfelt call for help above, I think we can be fairly sure that any admin closing this can except a little bribery, like a barnstar, for going beyond the call of duty and actually reading this whole damn thing to draw a conclusion about it. John Carter (talk) 17:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I've read through it all, and considered closing, but doing so with such a wide variety of opinions and problems, it would take a bit of a supervote to do so. Technically, any admin can act on the case regardless of discussion and local consensus (but not without controversy), assuming he acts consistent with the global consensus, but that would likely set off another chain of debates. In my opinion, these two editors are less important than Wikipedia as a whole, and it seems the only way to guarantee at least a period of peace without disruption would be to block them both for 30 days and narrow the topic ban to an indef on Nichiren Budhism, which is consistent with all the supports, being a narrower subset of the greater proposal. That sounds harsh, and perhaps I lack imagination, but I couldn't come up with a better solution, although the combined sanction is at the fringes of the consensus. Using a gentle hand would be foolish here, and this would set a firm precedent if there are future problems, putting more at risk, thus lowering the chance we would see future disruption. Whoever closes can expect to have to explain it at WP:AN, and I'm just not up for a fight right now, still recovering. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the input Dennis, which, as always, is appreciated. BMK (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@ Dennis Brown Fair enough, but in that case one could skip the 30 day ban as I do not really engage on other topics here. Blocking both of us on Nichiren related matters indef will be me out of en.wikipedia completely - we could have come to that conclusion earlier. If that were the case I will indeed wander off coming making my own conclusions. That being a. that the problem has not been addressed. b. that the edits by H88 within an area I am most active in and that in which they never really had much of an interest in before are indeed a means to misuse an IBAN. c. That the, to my mind, somewhat disturbing editing style of H88 has full admins support. d. If all that were the case I have indeed wasted hell of a lot of time here including the creation of articles.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:37, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Having said that following media reports on the mass deletion of sock puppets active here in Wikipedia admins may have to ask themselves far more urgent questions – I hope they do at least.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

First, to Dennis, thank you for having subjected yourself to reviewing this.

One other option, at this point, would be to maybe, somehow, open up separate sections for all the various options which have been proposed or considered, and allow for an ArbCom-like vote on all the options, allowing for a 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice, etc., system. Or, alternately, as has been suggested above, to take this to the ArbCom.

Also, I guess personally at @Catflap08:, I remember in one of the old Falun Gong arbitrations I proposed the idea of allowing topic-banned editors to work to develop new content relating to that topic in my user space, with me retaining control of the space, moving any content developed there into article space on my own, at my discretion, and, if required, rather clearly telling individuals to leave them alone. The Arbs indicated at that time that there was nothing the Arbs could do about what an individual editor allows in their user space. I've looked over a lot of religion content over the years, and I know full well that the number of articles of the "Religion by country" type, articles on individual jurisdictions or temples, major figures in the traditions, the social practices of the traditions, books or works about the groups, and a whole almost endless stream of other subjects, is a lot less than could be supported after reviewing other encyclopedic reference sources. I suppose the same might be possible here. John Carter (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

As one user put it I am not the bad guy here, thanks for that :-) In effect some are not sure whether to block me on NB “only” or nor not – in effect that boils down to blocking me from en.Wikipedia anyways. The subject area I am interested in is fairly limited so is my time I can spend on the project in general (you know job, family other interests and so forth - life). So for goodness sake block me, that’s me off your back, but I do have the incline that H88 will keep on keeping ANI busy. BTW do stop that bad habit used by some editors of deleting contributions – a word written is there to stay deleted or not. My proposal was a TBAN for H88 – decide on that – is that so difficult? If there is no TBAN on H88 that’s me disabled anyways no official ban needed anyway.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• To be clear, I don't think more polling is necessary or beneficial. What is needed is bold, balanced action by an admin who knows how to do the right thing (whatever he or she may think that is, and not necessarily my idea) and be willing to put up with some temporary heat for it. The time for talk is over, it is time for someone to step up and implement something reasonable so we may move on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Here here! (Or is it "hear hear"? I've never been sure. In any case, what he said.) BMK (talk) 23:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I basically agree, with the one proviso that maybe, and this is just a maybe, maybe someone should take this to ArbCom and give some of them additional reasons to hate some of us for making their lives more difficult. Having multiple people take part in a short discussion examining all the possible variation on sanctions might be useful, but it would also almost certainly generate as much heat and pointless verbiage as this one has. Maybe, anyway. The downside, of course, is that it would keep the level of dramah-mongering and other unfortunate conduct from some involved ongoing, and the additional time might just cement enmity further. Of course, if someone with a lot of guts wants to demonstrate their courage by doing something about this, I don't think anyone could object too strongly. John Carter (talk) 00:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken:It's "hear, hear" if it gets tricky, perhaps going for a close by a triumvirate of admins as has happened for the more difficult RFC's that have happened in the past. That might be overkill... Blackmane (talk) 03:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to remember. BMK (talk) 03:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

T-bans and I-bans and whatever-bans would be more trouble than they're worth. Simply block both editors for 30 days for WP:TE -- it's really not worth the community effort to figure out who is more at fault. NE Ent 02:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Break

Is this seriously still going on? It's been two weeks. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wikicohen, WikiShanwnio, and IP at Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo

At the talk page of Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo, there has been an ongoing content dispute that has descended into severe incivility, including claims that one editor is the subject of the article themselves as well as a criminal while the other editor is a stalker who has faced charges. I originally reported this to the oversight email yesterday because I saw it as attempted outing, but that was not acted upon, so I assume that the lack of specific names here means this is not a privacy issue. Still, both editors have ignored warnings on the talk page to keep things civil, and I doubt anything short of a block will stop the incivility at this point. Please note that based on both self-identifying as "Shawn", the IP and WikiShawnio are almost certainly the same editor. ~ Rob^Talk 14:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Wikicohen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• WikiShawnio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 70.26.73.164 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Rob, it is the same person. i was briefed by the toronto Police spokesman about a Shawn (redacted by WikiShawnio) who was arrested and charged with criminal harrassment of Ms Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo. He seems to think I am her. He has so many obsessive content all over the internet about her and the cops in a long email told me that it was endless work while Ms Omololu-Olunloyo was in canada. Shawn built blogs, stalked Ms O-O's Youtube videos, duplicated and defaced her content, DCMA filings all day. Im telling you what a detective and a spokesman told me. this blog was cited using Kemi's name http://olukemiolunloyo.blogspot.com/ Shawn said she's not a Pharmacist, not a Journalist, wanted fugitive which is still not proven, says her name is not Kemi, says he has her birth certificate, says he's her non official biographer, says her pharmacy license was revoked 10 yrs ago. All these have been proven wrong and I cannot keep editing his page for libel and slander. This guy outed himself and should be blocked from editing this page but of course he'll create another profile. I am a new wiki writer and just fed up! When you start editing pages of hated ppl, these wikistalkers arrive and something must be done

Wikicohen (talk) 15:07, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The way to settle this is at AfD. I predict it will be deleted, but nobody can accurately predict afd. DGG ( talk ) 12:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

thank you Rob for taking the time to enter me into this discussion, I resent the fact you believe I am being uncivil, I have been more than such, you can see by Wikicohens rhetoric that she is upset that someone is adding sourced information to her own authored biography page, I don't think I have anything more to add to this, the fact you believe that I might be concealing my identity as the IP user is uncalled for, I was told to register, I did so. This issue was looked over by the admin because I believe you might not understand the whole picture here, one glance at the Talk page on the Kemi Olunloyo page and you can see what is going on, please don't pool me into what ever facade the user Wikicohen is doing. thank you. WikiShawnio (talk) 15:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunate combination in this article of blatant promotionalism and overstatement along with excessive detail of no encyclopedic interest on the one side, along with some relatively minor alleged criminal activity reported with similar over-detail on the other. I suggest AfD, or possibly G11. DGG ( talk ) 23:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with DGG in that this article looks to have been created with a promotional or self-promotional point of view - either way, It isn't neutral. This article has been the subject of uncivil discussion between editors on it's talk page. I think it should also be known that, looking at the contributions of Wikicohen, WikiShawnio, and 70.26.73.164 - the majority of of their edits have been to either the Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo article or its talk page. I highly recommend that these users step away for a bit, cool down, and let others help with the dispute. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

When I first looked at the article, I thought that Ms. Omololu-Olunloyo probably met the general notability guideline, but I'm less convinced now. When you check what's claimed by WikiCohen with the sources, much of it wasn't supported at all and sometimes even contradicted by the sources. AfD might be the best way to settle this. Sjö (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you on the point of self promotion, I am new to wikipedia and only doing what I have seen others do, I have tried to be as civil as possible, I agree this article is nothing more than a dramatized resume but at the same time I do believe that Olukemi has earned herself enough notoriety online this page might be what Wiki needs, it's hard for me to be unbiased when I am constantly being bumrushed by the subject matter editing and reverting edits, you can plainly see what is going on with this back and forth. WikiShawnio (talk) 00:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Shawn you are not new to Wikipedia, you edit with two accounts, you libel and slander Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo under the controversy section. May I remind you that you said she is not a pharmacist nor Journalist and her license to practice pharmacy was revoked 10 yrs ago, you even claimed to have someone you stalked's (according to Toronto police) birth certificate. you lied that you were her unofficial biographer? Wikipedia edits is about the good the bad and the ugly, not the libelous and slanderous. Your sources are not credible. You keep sourcing from Nigerian blogs and not Nigerian media. Blogs in Nigeria copy whatever each other writes. they write based on celebrity and public figure tweets which may be deleted by those figures later. Ms O-O has not bowed out of Journalism, i will take off that edit AGAIN. Look for better sources and stop destroying the article. Certainly you have a COI with this subject and its a huge one. Also pls stop posting primary sources when secondary sources of her criminal case was reported by 3 Toronto papers. nobody knows if those charges are still pending.I will contact that police department on the update of their website if I have to. Stop posting things you are not sure of. DGG this article was created with neutrality but has been edited and altered too many times by Wikishawnio with false information. there is no self promotionalism. It simply describes a person, their career, their activism and controversy in their life. their numerous achievements and awards were taken out because of that very reason before it was approved. Wikicohen (talk) 11:23, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry but is anyone else reading this drivel, bottom line, you keep editing your own biography, seems every day you come to this article and "buff it up" for the readers, all of wikipedia can see your edits and the patterns of your behaviour, I don't know how to handle this situation, I add credible sources., events that actually transpired and you seem to keep deleting sourced information based on the facts you "feel" it paints yourself in a bad light. one day this section is allowed the next day it isn't, then you make these long winded allegations about the internet is attacking "you" when the whole time you are writing your replies like you are not Kemi Olunloyo, do you even comprehend how your actions are being viewed right now? can someone please resolve this issue? WikiShawnio (talk) 14:28, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Both of these editors have continued their personal attacks on the talk page since this thread was started. Both of them are SPAs that aren't here to build an encyclopedia, in my opinion. ~ Rob^Talk 14:31, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

COI editors or not, both of them have shown that they can't maintain a neutral point of view. Sjö (talk) 15:24, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

you can see from my contribs that I am adding events that transpired with sourced references, it seems like there is a bit of interest in "breaking up" a fight that is not even happening, you have a new contributor to Wikipedia here trying to complete his first rounds of edits on a topic I am very familiar with, it seems like instead of doing some research and reading the interactions between us you are just injecting your opinions without knowing the full picture, I contribute to an article, she deletes it, I try another avenue, even rewording and doing what the mod asks, she deletes it. I am getting the impression because someone has a wikipedia page and is reverting their edits because they might tell the real story, I am now being ganged up on and roped into what ever the user wikicohen is doing., so let the record state that I am simply trying to paint a picture here of the subject matter backed up with credible sources, apparently to some this is not wikipedia material? I don't get that at all. right now I am watching her use her cell phone to revert edits that have been resolved by 3 different moderators. I would like to know how I am not being unbiased here, I do research, I find events I post them with credible sources, she deletes them, so that means that I am like her now? please elaborate here. thanks WikiShawnio (talk) 16:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

the user wikicohen is now following me around and attempting to slander me with accusations I was arrested. I am requesting that it ceases immediately. she is also roping in another person not associated with wikipedia and I keep having to redact the names from the talk pages, wikicohen has even gone ahead and created me a user page without my permission> I don't know what the angle is here but it's hindering my use of the service here. I don't want to be lumped into wikicohens behavior as I am legitimately trying to help this article here with sourced material. The user wikicohen appears to be deleting large chunks of well referenced material because it doesn't tell the story she wants to tell. can someone please look into this, thank you. WikiShawnio (talk) 15:18, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

References

Both users have now begun edit-warring and have violated WP:3RR. I've warned both. WikiShawnio appears to have backed off the personal attacks, which is appreciated. Wikicohen definitely has not, based on: [23] [24] [25] ~ Rob^Talk 22:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Please let the record state what I am reverting is well sourced material, I believe that wikicohen is attempting to paint the subject in a good light, unfortunately there is alot of controversy to add to the article even yet and I fear we will never come to an impasse on the issues of reverting edits if wikicohen has a COI with the subject — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiShawnio (talk • contribs) 23:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to paint Kemi in a good light, Wikishawnio's edits have no encyclopedic value based on Facebook posts. He needs to stop reverting MY edits and that is why I have been reverting his. The edit war has to stop, you cannot cite Nigerian blogs using non existent Facebook posts on Nigerian blogs. People go back to those posts and if they cannot see them, it presents a source issue. Use sources from legitimate Nigerian newspapers who actually write the stories not hearsay on Facebook posts that is not even valid some times. Stop posting libelous information. I will continue to go after you for that. For example you say that Kemi is not a Dr. Have you heard of a Pharm.D? Its a doctor of Pharmacy. Do your homework. wiki has no say n that. It is her title on every Medical Journalism platform she has. Now I will continue editing this article and pls do not revert my edits either.

Wikicohen (talk) 08:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rob, Edit warring is not why Im here, I will not be harassed outside wikipedia by Shawn (redacted by wikishawnio) who already outed himself from the beginning of this. Harrasing me on twitter (which he tracked me to) will not be tolerated. He can do that with Kemi not me. It is important to know that this is someone that has a long history of harrasing Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo and was arrested in 2011 in canada for it. To edit this articles with facts, I go beyond articles and hearsay. wikishawnio should stop roping me into whatever got him arrested by Detective 5050 of the Toronto Police on harrassing Ms Omololu-olunloyo. I am requesting page protection and a dispute resolution Enough is enough. I'm not kemi and Im sure she won't be happy reading all this edit war going on because of her. Wikipedia should be about encyclopedic articles backed up with solid relevant sources. Wikicohen (talk) 11:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

More personal attacks from Wikicohen: [26]. ~ Rob^Talk 11:45, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I have backed off from directly interacting with wikicohen, I have even gone and found additional sources to back up my references, I even use the same sources that wikicohen is using, it's frustrating. I will let the admins/mods come to their own conclusions, the personal attacks and libel needs to cease immediately.I am all for locking the page for review, I don't want it deleted nor do I want to hurt Kemi Olunloyo in any way, the story just needs to be told, this is Wikipedia. I/O (talk) 14:51, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikishawnio, pls stop reverting my edits. When I added that Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo still writes as a Journalist for her websites and a VIP blogger for Pulse Nigeria, you REMOVED them. They were sourced. You went on to call it a temporary position when the website has an entire section of her profile. Also there is no extradition order for her as of August 2015. Nigeria does not extradite it's citizens according to the united Nations. The only extradition order was when she was in Canada and it failed. I have sourced that from the Toronto Sun so pls do not post false information. I have also moved your Nigerian personal hygiene story to the controversy section as its not a career issue. She did not write it as an article. I am still expect a page protection and a dispute resolution — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikicohen (talk • contribs) 18:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• COMMENT These editors are causing great havoc on this page, and action needs to be taken. For me, I would recommend a Topic Ban from the article, and an Interaction Ban with each other. The talk page is a horrendous mess, and the article needs a complete review. It should be locked down, and a couple of uninvolved editors should go through it line by line. Scr★pIron^IV 20:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I would support a topic ban, but I think an interaction ban is not necessary. They are both SPAs interacting only over this topic, so functionally the topic ban should take care of interaction as well. If it doesn't and personal attacks continue, blocks or an interaction ban can be handed out at that time. ~ Rob^Talk 14:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree with a lockdown. I already requested for a page protection Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo must be going crazy if she's reading it all. Wikicohen (talk) 21:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

"Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo must be going crazy if she's reading it all." guys, please don't lump me in with wikicohen, please. I/O (talk) 15:50, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• comment An article on this nigerian self-publicist has been deleted once before see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kemi_Omololu-Olunloyo 78.149.122.149 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:02, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I have indef-blocked the WikiShawnio (talk · contribs) account. It is easily verified on the web that there has been a long-standing harasmment campaign (or mutual feud?) involving these persons, and the WikiShawnio account is clearly (and barely disguised) part of the same pattern, so I've blocked them for harassment. At the same time, I also consider it quite obvious that the Wikicohen account is indeed the subject of the article – they said here on this board that a Toronto police spokesperson personally gave them information about the case involving that "Shawn" person, "in a long e-mail". I'm pretty sure the Toronto police would not give out such information to somebody who just happens to be a Wikipedia editor interested in Ms Olunloyo, so either that claim is false or the recipient of that communication from Toronto police is Ms Olunloyo herself. Therefore, I warn Wikicohen (talk · contribs) to cease all COI editing on that article immediately. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:54, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

As a result of you blocking Wikishawnio, he has started posting comments on Ms O-O's blogs which I read daily and have a right to. Wikishawnio thinks Im Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo. I am not. All Toronto Police records of his arrest and harrasment case is PUBLIC and online. The claim is not false and I am not Ms Olunloyo. Below is what was revealed this morning.

AI have only one account on Wikipedia and have no time for sockpuppeting. It may be of interest to see a comment left by someone on Kemi Omololu-Olunloyo's Gun violence blog which I read daily. You should be investigating her confirmed stalker Wikishawnio and this comment. It is highly disturbing what the anonymous writer wrote. http://snitchlady.blogspot.com/2015/08/funeral-held-for-children-and-their.html Pls don't accuse me of false and unwarranted investigations. I appreciate it. I repeat, I do NOT have multiple accounts and have no time for that. The comment written is typical of comments written by Wikishawnio on Kemi's blogs using the accounts (The Public of Facebook on blogger) and Wikishawnio on Youtube. You can see how he defaces all her videos. The comment I luckily saw reads>> "Anonymous August 30, 2015 at 3:37 AM I am taking your wikipedia page away from you, thank you for falling for my ploy to out you as a sock puppet. now you can burn in hell bitch. have fun drinking shit water and being accused of being a witch"

The Writer feels they are talking to Kemi and feel she felt for their "ploy" Unfortunately, I'm not Kemi. I created her page and once again I know the history of Kemi and Shawn McQuaid as told to me by Toronto Police. Never met or spoke to them both but their history is all over the internet. INVESTIGATE Wikishawnio properly. Wikicohen (talk) 10:21, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Legal threats

I filed an SPI against Wikicohen based on fairly obvious IP edits being used to fake support for their edits and edit-war. As a result, they have threatened me with legal action here: [27]. As per WP:LEGAL, they should be indef'd until the threat is withdrawn. ~ Rob^Talk 14:13, 30 August 2015 (UTC) Pinging Future Perfect at Sunrise as the admin who previously warned Wikicohen

Rob, while everyone keeps accusing me of being Kemi or even 4 sockpuppets, you should be watching the comments on this thread on Kemi's blog which I subscribe too. I already notified the administrators of this. Who is posting these sort of messages? They are obviously "talking" to kemi thinking she is Wikicohen (which is me) I cannot prove it is Wikishawnio who was blocked but don't you think when someone posts that they set up someone for a ploy, obsessed about Kemi's tweets which have nothing to do with this page and even more comments like getting dragged out and KILLED? I have a right to seek legal advice when someone else is the sockpuppet. Here is the thread and it sounds like an insider in Wikipedia. http://snitchlady.blogspot.com/2015/08/funeral-held-for-children-and-their.html I need to know who is behind this. I would not have seen this if I don't follow that blog. I need a feedback on this in the investigation. Wikicohen (talk) 09:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm focused on what's occurring on the wiki, not what's occurring off the wiki. If those comments are genuine, then they're certainly deplorable, but that does not allow for legal threats to be made on Wikipedia. You have the right to seek legal action whenever you want, but it is Wikipedia's policy that you cannot make legal threats on the wiki, period. I encourage you to withdraw your threat. ~ Rob^Talk 02:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Not to sound completely dumb, but as an uninvolved user, I'd point out that IPs here on WP (and the blog comments offwiki, for that matter) are both "anonymous." I'm not sure how, without CU (to avoid outing), it is possible to be sure that the IPs in question are definitely one person's or the other's without opening an SPI for both of them (which we haven't). Anybody can copy old reverted text, and I'm going to guess that because these people are known to one another, they're going to geolocate to just about the same place anyway, even though there's a lot of play in "location". Shawnio may be doing it, or Cohen may be fluffing "evidence" on her side, but we can't tell based on the extent of procedures at SPI as they currently stand. MSJapan (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand; the alleged socking is by Cohen, who is claiming Shawnio is "setting him/her up". I'll let the SPI run its course, but the behavioral evidence is strong. When a bunch of IPs appear in an otherwise low traffic article around the time that an edit war breaks out and heavily favor one side of the war, using the same odd turns of phrase that are rarely used, that points to one thing. Either way, that's not the issue I've brought to ANI. The issue that remains unresolved is that Wikicohen has made legal threats toward me at the SPI. ~ Rob^Talk 21:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Telstra, Australia IP vandalism

The last month or so, there has been a long list of IPs, all belonging to Telstra, Australia, vandalising the Israel/Palestine articles. Look at User talk:McSly, Modi'in-Maccabim-Re'ut, Talk:Judea, Talk:State of Palestine, Talk:German Colony, Jerusalem, Palestinian territories. He reminded me of my old friend, due to edits like this, but, AFAIK, "my old friend" is still in the US.

However, I wonder, is it possible to block a range of Telstra-Ips? Or would that catch too many innocents? (Btw, he is active as I type) Huldra (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Block the entire ISP. If they have a problem, it should remain their problem, not ours. Any decent editor can register an account. Likewise Vodafone DE. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Another death-threat against me here from the same; please rev-del and protect. Iow: please do full JarlaxleArtemis-routine when dealing with this guy, Huldra (talk) 13:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey guys, you *really* have to refuse them the possibility to edit their own talk-page; to avoid death and rape-threaths, Huldra (talk) 13:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks User:Gilliam, for that. (Perhaps rev-del the threats?) Also, the same IP was discussed here a couple of days ago: see here. --Huldra (talk) 14:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Revdelled. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, User:NeilN. I have made a list of (some) of the Telstra socks, used in July/ August this year (not a full list):

• 58.168.146.213 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 60.230.123.131 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 60.230.34.148 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@@
• 60.230.39.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

• 101.160.19.93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 101.160.129.104 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 101.160.137.108 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 101.160.148.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

• 110.149.115.232 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@@

• 120.144.129.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 120.144.134.25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

• 121.214.15.161 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@@
• 121.214.145.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 121.219.62.208 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 121.219.134.141 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 121.220.110.251 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@@
• 121.220.10.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 121.220.80.175 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) @@

• 124.176.153.138 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@
• 124.180.155.128 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 124.180.215.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) @@
• 124.180.198.222 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 124.181.101.68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)@@

• 137.147.7.109 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 137.147.7.175 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) @@
• 137.147.152.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 137.147.169.156 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

The IPs with @@ after them have issued Grawp-like threats, mostly rev-delled. Feel free to add more IPs, as you find them, Huldra (talk) 16:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Looks like any rangeblock has a lot of collateral, apart from 2-5, which are caught by 60.230.0.0/17. Page protection is the only real solution here from that point of view. Mdann52 (talk) 17:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

In a case like this that's too easy: we'd have to protect every page in the project where they might show up or where they might follow someone. I don't know what the limit is, what too much collateral damage is, but not rangeblocking also has a lot of collateral damage, and I prefer our own editors not fall in that category. Rangeblock away, I say. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Unless you would also advocate rangeblocking large sections of Comcast in the US or BT in the UK, this is a really stupid idea. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:38, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

We've had to do it before to stem death threats. Not to mention that this is pretty much the only way to slow him to any appreciable degree. Even then, his abuse of open proxies is quite legendary (which is why he's showing up on BT and Telstra). —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 22:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

There is an alternative. Contact Telstra abuse and tell them that we are considering a range block because of the actions of one Telstra user. They may very well block the user on their end to protect their other users from collateral damage if we do it on our end. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

If it's an open proxy (and considering who we're discussing it almost certainly is), then it's not exactly on Telstra, but rather on who owns the TOR node/anonymising service/compromised server. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

If it is my old friend, (who, for sure, knows how to make use of TOR), then why does he *only* appear on Telstra IPs? I´m making some enquiries (off-line), in the mean time, I´ll ask all admins to be very vigilant when it comes to Telstra IPs: remember to block their user-page access too. And could some admin please rev-del 124.181.101.68 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) death threats? Thanks in advance, Huldra (talk) 21:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Oddy enough I have done this before when I was a Sysadmin, unless Telstra's policies have changed they will file such a request in the nearest bin. It took a court order for me to get them to prevent one of their script-kiddie customers attempting to DDOS one of my domains. The main problem with rangeblocking large sections of Telstra however is that in many parts of Australia it really is the only provider. There is no alternative. Unlike the example above which affected Houston - a city with many other options. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

So logged in editors can still edit, and IP editors get a notice that they can either log in or complain to Telstra for allowing one of their users to abuse Wikipedia, forcing Wikipedia to block IP edits from Telstra. Not ideal, but not a disaster for the Australian users either. One could also contact a few news outlets in Australia and let them know what is happening. If they choose to run a story or two on this, Telstra is likely to become a lot more cooperative. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Just to note that some of these are proxies, not all are in Australia by the looks of things. While blocking Australia may seem a good solution, I don't think this will be productive - partly as there are ways to easily get round this. Now, I can tell you millions of people will be caught up in any rangeblock with this - and it is incredibly hard to tell who is and isn't vandals when it comes to people like ACC dealing with requests like this. Rangeblock is the easy solution, just not the best one here. Depending on what is being inserted, a note to the ISP or police (I haven't seen the edits, but the police are likely to be interested if they are death threats) is likely to be the only solution, unless we want large swaiths of Australia waking up and wondering why they can't fix one typo or suchlike, leading to the problem building up elsewhere. Mdann52 (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

All the above IPs with @@ at the end have rev-delled rape or death threats, mostly death threats. I have no idea as to how Australian police react to this (I am not in Australia), Huldra (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

I note here that if Telstra is not one of the biggest ISPs in Australia, it would have to be up there. Rangeblocking the entire ISP will result in a whole load of collateral damage. A complaint should probably be made to Telstra first, although I'm not at all confident it'll be actioned. If it's not, perhaps a message in the rangeblock stating that Telstra failed to respond to death threats originating from their network? Nothing like a bit of media coverage to encourage an episode of corporate responsibility. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC).

Range blocking Telstra would definitely attract media coverage in Australia, and probably overseas given how large an ISP it is (it's by far the largest telecommunications company in Australia). Telstra has an online form to report abuse here, though it may not be applicable to this case. Nick-D (talk) 00:14, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

As these IPs are making threats of harm, the Wikimedia Foundation should also be informed, and will hopefully be able to help with a response - the procedure is explained at Wikipedia:Responding to threats of harm. Nick-D (talk) 00:20, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

These IPs seem to be from Victoria, and one appears to be from the town of Warrugal. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:52, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the info. Also, I believe there is an Australian Wikimedia chapter? I would assume they were closer to dealing with Telstra than WMF? (Yeah, I know: this is a "hot potato", and everyone´s reaction is to pass it on the the next person. Sigh...) Huldra (talk) 22:26, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikimedia Chapters don't handle issues like this (they're essentially clubs of like-minded people) - the WMF is a better point of contact, and seems to take issues like this seriously. I'd suggest that you contact them if you haven't already done so. Nick-D (talk) 11:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I contacted Philippe B, by email last week, as he had been dealing with "my old friend" earlier. However, that was obviously not good timing, so I forwarded it through the "standard channels" earlier today. Huldra (talk) 20:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I did a bit of poking about and came across |this site. While it deals with some nasty business with regards to anti- vs pro-vaccination groups not relevant here, but what was relevant was the inclusion of part of the Criminal Code Act 1995. Quick summary of this is that it is an offence in Australia to use a "carriage service", such as phone, mail, but also including electronic services, to make threats to kill or threats to cause serious harm. You could turn such evidence as you have to police in that particular state. Cybercrime reporting is somewhat in its infancy in Australia but police do respond to it. Blackmane (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Extra comment The IP's largely originate from around Melbourne, Victoria with one geolocating to a town 50km north of Melbourne. This would put it in the jurisdiction of the Victorian State Police, although depending on how they respond to the threats it may escalate to the Australian Federal Police (our version of the FBI) if it is viewed as a Commonwealth crime. Blackmane (talk) 03:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Extra extra comment Range blocking Telstra basically means you block pretty much the whole country. Telstra is the largest telecommunications company here but it used to be government owned till its privatisation. As such, most of the other ISP's here piggy back off their hardware. Far better to report to the abuse team on irt -at- team.telstra.com. Blackmane (talk) 03:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thank you, User:Blackmane. I will email irt -at- team.telstra.com. I contacted WMF, they could confirm that this was, most likely, *not" my old friend, but some copy-cat. Besides that, they were basically doing nothing; just telling me that I should contact local police. I´m on the other side of the world, I doubt police here would do anything about a threat "down under". Also: if I went to the police, my RL name would get known, and could possibly be leaked. (Yes, I´m a bit paranoid after 5 years with constant death and rape-threaths, I´ll admit!) Lets hope the telstra-team does something; if not, I will be back in a short while asking for you to range-block the whole area: *that* would wake them up, I´m sure! Huldra (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Deleting pages created by User:MusicAngels

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

(this has been copied from ANI's talk page) Bgwhite (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

About a month ago User:MusicAngels created long, complex poetry pages without any scholarly consensus and has in the past week or so, most likely as teachers are returning from vacation, individuals have begun chipping away at these pages. User:MusicAngels has refused to allow editing, has labeled all editing vandalism, and disallowed any conversation. Some of his/her pages have been tagged for deletion but they should all be investigated. 64.9.146.210 (talk) 11:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

The article you refer to was created and patroled about six months ago. You appear not to be reading the link provided for you at WP:BRD. You are not supposed to be editing on the article page until consensus is reached on the Talk page. Please stop misattributing dates of article creation to other editors at Wikipedia as you have been doing here. You should not be editing on the article page until you make consensus on the Talk page of the article. MusicAngels (talk) 17:19, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Something odd is going on.

1. A copyright problem tag has been applied to the articles MusicAngels has created by MusikAnimal.
2. MusicAngels asked for a GA review of W. H. Auden over a week ago. Review is here. It appears MusicAngels has copied someone else's critique of Auden, struck out another editor's comments they didn't like, left several upset message. In the meantime, MusicAngel is leaving messages on other edit's talk pages to visit the review. Macspaunday has been involved in this.
3. MusicAngels is adding links to other poet's to articles they have created. The links have been reverted by multiple people, including IPs with claims of consensus being reached, but I see nothing on the talk pages about this, little alone consensus. An ANI discussion was started a couple days ago by MusicAngels on their links being removed by Macspaunday. They were told it was valid to remove the links, but MusicAngels has been adding them again.

Some investigating needs to happen to ascertain if copyright violations and POV pushing are happening. Bgwhite (talk) 05:21, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

There are no copyright violations of any kind in the article which fully attributes all of its many citations. The policy about valid forms of using old material in Wikipedia in new articles which have been reviewed and patrolled by WikiProjects and WikiPartrol are documented in WP:CWW (Copying within wikipedia) and in WP:Forking for Valid forms of use of old material within wikipedia. There is no copyright violation anywhere in the article of any kind and I have gone out of my way to bring the references up to date and ensuring that the links are working. Any flags for copyright violations should be removed since there is no copyright violation in the reviewed article. Item (3) above appears to refer to a "See also" section addition which I added to related articles which appears to be the form which in preferred. MusicAngels (talk) 14:57, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Attribution is absolutely required, end of discussion. I don't see that anywhere in the articles or page histories. From what I could tell there is a section on each poet, with content copied from that poet's article – so potentially a lot of work to fix the lack of attribution. To clarify, the issue is someone authored that content, which you copied and pasted, so now it looks like you authored it. I'm sure this wasn't intentional, and again it can be fixed.

I briefly looked over the hatnotes, and I agree there might be some misuse, particularly WP:RELATED. Also we should be using a template, and not bare bones formatting.

Finally, there might be some concern with ownership of articles. How I originally got involved was an AIV report about MusicAngels removing user's comments from the articles' talk page. You can observe this behaviour at here, where they are removing constructive comments from anonymous users, with rationale that they did not properly format their comment (e.g. was unsigned), among other nonsensical reasons. See User talk:MusicAngels#IP editor identified for vandalism by three separate bots for more on that issue. — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Also why is this discussion here? We should probably move it to WP:AN/I? — MusikAnimal ^talk 15:26, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

There are over 80 (eighty) citations in the bibliography which are fully documented and which I have gone out of my way to make sure they are up to date and functioning. The attribution is as full as it can be and there is no copyright violation in the article of any kind to my knowledge. If you have something unrelated to this is mind please indicate it, since I know that there are no copyright violation in the article of any kind and the banner notice should be removed. If you can provide any example of the type of attribution or notification which you want to see then point me to it and I will do my best to follow any well intended advice. The comments from the IP-user with dynamically changing IP addresses, to me, has looked more like graffiti to me rather than having content. I have maintained it on the Page at your request, and have tried to provide further links to help the IP-editor to try to communicate more effectively. There is no ownership of any article at Wikipedia, and I claim and assert no type of ownership of the article of any kind. The edits there yesterday by another editor adding various links to the article done by another editor looked perfectly reasonable and done fully responsibly. The eighty citations in the bibliography of the article have all been fully researched and fully attributed, there are no copyright violations to my knowledge of any kind in the article and any flags stating otherwise should be removed from the article. MusicAngels (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

If you bother to actually read the above, you see the copyright infringement they are talking about. If you take prose from a website that uses CCBYSA but don't properly attribute the source, that is copyright infringement. Wikipedia is a website. That means if you borrow from an article here, you still have to give attribution, except that it is trivial to do. If you have been borrowing a lot from articles here, you may be forcing an audit of all your edits to that article, which is a major pain in the arse to do, because you infringed copyright. Do you not understand this? Editors at Wikipedia have the same rights to attribution you would give editors from other websites, you can't just lift their work and act like it is your own. Are they wrong, have you not been doing this? Since they saw no attribution, can you stand here and say you didn't take any content from other articles at Wikipedia and put it into this one? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:46, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Proper attribution is always important. In the version of the article that is posted, I had made sure that the original articles were all linked (each and every one of them) in both the lead section and elsewhere using double-square brackets to link directly to the original pages. In fact one of my purposes in creating the article was to get more people to read the related full biographies of the leading poets mentioned. There are more ways to enhance the attribution of the related articles and biographies by using the "Further" template or the "Main" template in each one of the subsections of the article. I am fully supportive of this type of attribution and would like to add them into the article myself. MusicAngels (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

That is not attribution, that is simply page integration via links. We need it to say "text taken from this article at this time", etc, and when it entered your article. The problem is you took text from numerous pages and compiled them into one (times three to account for all of the concerned articles). That would have been easier if you had used edit summaries when you created the page. I'm sure you didn't intentionally introduce copyright infringement but we do need to fix this. I thought about posting at WP:CP but I'm not sure if that's the right venue given we know there's a problem, we just don't know the best way to fix it. To other observers, I've explained the full, safe way to do belated attribution at User talk:MusicAngels#Copying from other articles, but that route will surely take quite some time to implement. It's unclear to me if we could get away with dummy edits and informative edit summaries. Advice is needed — MusikAnimal ^talk 19:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Dummy edits should be fine, imo, as long as we cover each article and carefully document each instance. The key is getting that info into individual edit summaries. Personally, I would compile a complete list first, and post that on the talk page, then work from that. That should clear up any confusion and provide a single record of all previous attribution as a bonus. It's also the best way to insure we get them all, and is simply the easiest and fastest way to get the job done in a case like this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Just saw in your link where you talk about using talk pages as well, so that sounds like I agree with you, MusikAnimal. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see comments by me and another user at [28] both saying it would be easiest and best simply to delete MusicAngel's "Poetry in XYZ" pages and asking an admin to Speedy Delete them. Why do all that work fixing pages that shouldn't be there at all? 86.175.175.114 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• My concern is that, for example, Poetry in the early 21st century isn't actually about that subject. 90% of it is about influences on C21 poetry by earlier poets. Given that the whole thing's a copyvio anyway, wouldn't it be better to just delete it and start again? Black Kite (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
• I'm coming around to that as well. The articles are essays on American, English, and a little French poetry--their lack of globality is quite striking, almost as striking as their sheer size. So content-wise there are plenty of problems already, and while it's a shame to delete something with such bibliographies, the combination of content problems, essay-style, and copyvio is insurmountable (I mean, simply documenting where the sentences came from is for Sisyphus, not for us). So yes, I favor deletion, as harsh as it may sound. Drmies (talk) 23:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I thought that as well, but didn't like the idea of deleting so much material. I read some, wasn't particularly impressed with the tone and scope, but this is so far out of my normal areas, I didn't want to judge. That said, I wouldn't oppose deleting. I surely don't want to have to do the ground work for copyvio myself, to be honest. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• The whole point of permitting speedy deletion for copyright infringements is to save admins and other good-faith editors from having to do the ground work themselves. This is no different from any other copyright infringement: our license clearly states This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate automatically upon any breach by You of the terms of this License. As any other copyright infringement case that I've worked in, I've deleted the infringing pages and issued an only warning. Nyttend (talk) 04:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• I wouldn't normally delete in-house copyright infringement when we are able to simply correct the attribution, but here it seemed the pages were almost entirely borrowed content, and in large quantity. It's difficult to justify a standalone article when there is no substantial additional prose. Furthermore it was copied from so many articles, rendering it quite cumbersome to properly attribute to the original authors. A book may be the more appropriate way to compile such content — MusikAnimal ^talk 04:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
• Nyttend, I appreciate your comments here, which should also tell our readers that we don't do these things lightly. (As it happens I just deleted an article with a very similar background but nowhere near as good as the ones we were discussing here.) I am inclined to let things slide more easily with content copied internally, since that's often an easier fix, but even that would have been very difficult here. MusicAngels, please take these comments to heart, and take some comfort in the fact that it took six admins to make this decision. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 14:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• And a lot of readers and editors will admire the way you reached this decision. This was obviously a difficult situation, and the admins did a perfect job of resolving it. Thank you. 86.147.174.79 (talk) 15:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

• MusicAngels seems to be deep in another edit war at Birdman_(film). Unfortunately, the editor who MusicAngels is mostly warring with seems to think the page belongs to him/her instead, so this may need some sorting out on both sides. But MusicAngels is back again doing what he/she was warned against in the talk pages attached to the poetry pages that are now deleted, that is, he/she is trying to block all edits by anyone else until "consensus" is reached on a talk page and is claiming that this is WP policy. MusicAngels seems to be unstoppable in these bad habits, even after many warnings from admins. 86.182.17.155 (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I'm the editor whom MusicAngels is warring with. I disagree with the statement that I seem to think the page belongs to me (indeed, while at one stage I got upset with someone editing a section to begin, after discussion I was very grateful for the edits!), though obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'd like it if you read my summary over at the edit warring noticeboard though. I just care about additions to the article being good, and am not happy when people bully others into keeping poor additions. Neuroxic (talk) 02:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• Y'all, it's worthwhile keeping an eye on the deluge of IP disruptors on Talk:Birdman (film), and now also on my talk page. I don't know if this IP is part of that assholery, but I ended up semi-protecting that talk page: comments made there were just personal attacks on MusicAngels and had nothing to do with the content of Birdman. They're on my talk page too, blathering a bunch about how they're academics but can't have accounts and I hate IP editors and blah blah blah.

  I don't know if any of you are smart enough to figure out what's going on. Maybe it's one person who knows how to hop IPs all over the place; maybe it's a bunch of meaty IPs. It's a minor irritation, and it's getting in the way of Neuroxic and MusicAngels reaching a solution on the article--but perhaps some of you content editors and GA-warriors can have a look as well. Note: I have no dog in this fight; I haven't seen the movie, read the article, or even glanced at the GA review or reassessment. I don't know Neuroxic or MusicAngels from Adam. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 13:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• I'm the anonymous IP who wrote the paragraphs "A lot of readers" and "MusicAngels seems to be deep in..." I'm not part of any asshattery and I don't write personal attacks like the ones on the talk pages. I don't know how to hop IPs, but I visit from other people's computers, so my IP is probably different now from what it was before. I've been watching this story from a distance, and it's fascinating to see how some editors can disrupt Wikipedia and waste other people's time. 86.171.78.94 (talk) 17:34, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RefHistory

RefHistory (talk · contribs) is a single-purpose account out to promote Philip Benedict. We had to go through a RfC to determine that it's inappropriate to add the books written by his students, with no sources other than those books. That doesn't stop RefHistory from re-adding the very same content over and over again: [29] That was after a rather unambiguous warning I left at their talk page. RefHistory obviously is unwilling to accept the community's consensus, and I tire of trying to educate him on what constitutes a third-party source. I propose they're not here to improve the encyclopedia and should be dealt with accordingly. Huon (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing promotional about the content. All content is sourced by articles and university press books. There is no community consensus on the two sentences in dispute. Huon refuses to allow any information on the page that he doesn't like. When he loses a battle on one ground, he simply deletes the material again and makes up another reason. Though I do not believe that prize-winning academic history books published by academic presses constitute a primary source; Huon needs to be reminded that Wikipedia allows for the use of primary sources.RefHistory (talk) 03:30, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow this is still going on? @RefHistory: you need to give it up here, the RFC result and consensus are both against you. The material is not going to stay in the article, and continually re-adding it isn't going to change that. Fyddlestix (talk) 04:23, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

There has been no justification that these two sentences are inappropriate. The debate was over the sentence that came afterwards. It is fine.12.47.233.82 (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal (RefHistory)

Propose article/topic ban for RefHistory on Philip Benedict and related articles, as WP:NOTHERE. GregJackP Boomer! 04:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• RefHistory seems to suffer from a severe case of I didn't hear that. Support topic ban. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:39, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Support indef per NOT HERE. If he doesn't get it then he doesn't get it. Pulling the same wikilawyering and copious amounts of "I didn't hear ya" at another article doesn't help the project at all. We would just be revisiting this another day. Socking/Meat has been going on with that article.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support per BH. If you aren't here to build an encyclopedia, you are getting in the way of those that are. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support Topic ban of indefinite length (until there is no need for the ban) widely construed on Phillip Benedict to be enforceable by blocks of escalating length (1 week, 2 weeks, 4 weeks, indef). User has had more than enough opportunities to become educated with the rules of the road, but still feels the need to push their content without any new argument as to why declined content should be added. Hasteur (talk) 13:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• I don't see much of an effective difference between an indef-block and a topic ban in this case and would support either. I'm obviously involved in the article. Huon (talk) 15:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Can someone who is suggesting this change please make a concise defense for the most recent deletes by Huon? These particular sentences were never part of the original complaint.RefHistory (talk) 19:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
  • We are currently discussing your behavior and not the actual content. Three different editors have reverted you and yet you come back today and go against that implied consensus and revert yet again while this thread at ANI is ongoing and an open thread is on the talk page concerning the matter. The last two editors that reverted you aren't Huon. Your fixation on that editor combined with your subject interests makes me wonder if you ran these accounts. The level of I didn't hear that and wikilawyering are on par with that.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• "The RFC never covered this last sentence. Did it?" Yes it did. "Aspect 1) Does a student mentioning/giving thanks to Philip Benedict in the acknowledgment or similar page of the book rise to the level of importance that the student/book should be covered in this article..." His other recent edit to an unrelated article removed parts of a quote explicitly marked as one, in quotation marks, backed up by a reliable source confirming that quote, and commented that there's "no support for this sentence". So either RefHistory lacks basic reading competence in English, or he's editing with an agenda so strong that it takes precedence over obvious facts. Either way, this is no longer just topic ban territory; thus I support an indef-block. Huon (talk) 23:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban This editor has not yet made 500 edits, and has become fixated on one article. A topic ban sounds about right so than perhaps they broaden their editing and learn to work with others. If they do not, this will give them enough rope and a block will soon follow. AlbinoFerret 23:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban over indefinite ban, but support both. The history indicates that the individual could very easily be an SPA, and efforts to "reform" them by trying to get them to learn elsewhere very rarely work. Having said that, idiot optimist that I am, it might be the case here. I think, maybe, the best way to go would be to impose the topic ban, and if it gets violated more than let's say two times with no reasonable contributions elsewhere, then drop the site ban hammer on him. John Carter (talk) 00:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring

User:Garageland66 is edit warring on Communist Party of Britain. Repeated removal of far-left and "of Britain" in the party's name despite reliable sources supporting their presence.

Diffs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/678589268 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/678594432 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/678591812 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/678567897

Those are just examples. See here the user has been warned over page ownership, a warning which they dismissed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/678258213

I'm sorry unremittingly for my participation in the edit war.

Gotha^☭  _Talk 12:40, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

See Talk:Communist Party of Britain (or whatever it's called today). Both issues are discussed at some length. Garageland does not seem to consider that consensus amongst between others (no matter how weak) is something to consider. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:11, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• Can some other editors / admins please take a look at User_talk:Gothaparduskerialldrapolatkh#Block.

A purely preventative [sic] block has been issued on just one of the editors here, on the sole grounds that the other editor is "less familiar" with WP. So they have of course now continued their edit warring unopposed, as after all they now have clear admin approval that their version is "right". How does that one work? Andy Dingley (talk) 09:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Gob Lofa

Gob Lofa and myself were recently blocked for a 24 hours, with the blocking administrator Callanecc making the following statements at our talk pages [30] and [31], making it clear that they would be looking into a IBAN between us and a TBAN for either one or both of us. Nothing as of yet has come of this and I would like to request that action indeed be taken. I would ask Callanecc directly however I noticed on their talk page that they won't be as active as normal until 14 September, but I will notify them of this AN/I.

This editors problems have not been altered by their recent block and warnings of further action being taken, and it seems to me that they are intent on going back over previous "flashpoints" and trying to elicit a reaction from me, and whilst I have performed a few reverts I have kept them to the most contentious edits and have done my best to remain civil, however I am coming here hoping to get this nipped in the bud before it escalates further with either an IBAN, and a TBAN on Gob Lofa or both of us or whatever action is deemed merited. It needs to stop.

Callanecc makes it clear that such a decision will be based on mine and Gob Lofa's actions, for example about civility and usage of sources [32]. Callanecc also requested in his block notice to me (linked above) that I remain civil and leave Gob Lofa's talk page alone, and for my part I feel that I have done that except to place an AN/I notice on their page to notify them of this. Unfortunately Gob Lofa seems to have reverted back to the issues I had originally raised here before deciding to close it and go to ArbCom Enforcement instead, and seems to be intent on carrying on before as well as trying to provoke some form of response from me by revisiting previous debates/flashpoints, starting here (23rd August) and most recently today here (30th August) and here.

I deem a TBAN on Gob Lofa in regards to Troubles related articles is more than justified going by their actions I raised previously and the following recent edits:

• Despite previously being informed [33] of the problems with their attempt to add a "Terrorism" category to the article, they decided [34] to put it into the start of the second sentence of the lede in a clear violation of WP:UNDUE (talk page discussion makes it clear why). I reverted [35], asking Gob Lofa to go to talk about it, to which they did and this was the result. Note the incivility from Gob Lofa towards Snowded [36].
• They are also still at the inaccurate edit summaries. Here they state "NPOV, link, reword etc", however what they actually did was reword a more NPOV sourced statement and changed the entire context of it and made it more POV. They also reworded another sourced statement (at the end of the edit) that was inaccurate as my reversion edit summary makes clear. They made the same edit and misleading summary at this article as well.
• This is another contentious edit. The government was not involved in the violence, and it is highly contentious and inaccurate to state such.
• This talk page however clearly reveals the real level of bias with their arguments for their edit, an argument that is clearly at odds with the facts, which I make clear with responses of block quotations from several verifiable and reliable sources by respected academics. Most notably Gob Lofa explicitly stated on 15th July: "the BA put it up to republicans first, starting with forcing through Orange marches with violence in March 1970" [37] however this direct quote from one of those sources I provided on 25th August [38] states "On Easter Tuesday, 31 March 1970, the Junior Orangemen had permission to march in Belfast. On their way out they marched along the Springfield Road without incident, but on their return that evening Catholic youths began to throw bottles at the bands and when about seventy soldiers of the Royal Scots Regiment arrived they were attacked with stones and petrol bombs.". There is some difference between Gob Lofa's version of events and what actually happened, and from an editor who frequently states that they are making things more NPOV.

They also now seem to be trying to provoke/hound me:

• [39]. An IP was trying to enforce a word change, and after a few reverts I had asked an admin to semi-protect the page, however a completely new IP appears to change it again. Upon reverting, Gob Lofa appears out of the blue, stating I "Take it to talk", even though there is no basis for such a statement or revert considering I was reverting an IPs edit to the stable version. This new IP and Gob Lofa also both edited this article on the 28th August leading me to wonder are they linked.
• The following (ab)use [40] of their rollback privilege yesterday (not the first time) to make another inaccurate edit summary and what is clear incivility directed at me with "Undo convoluted POV replacement for Britain". That is in regards to me reverting an edit of theirs back on the 1st May [41]. How that edit summary was merited is beyond me.

Mabuska ^(talk) 13:02, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Also in regards to the Dromore, County Down article, a clear attempt at provocation by highly dubious admonishment [42], though my response to it shows the holes in it. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Having failed to elicit some form of uncivil response from me at Talk:Dromore,_County_Down they decide to do it instead [43]. They have also decided to follow me to the Ulaid article in an attempt to find something to argue with me over to see if they can get a reaction out of me, in this case removing a WikiProject tag I added [44], though my response discounts their reasoning in their edit summary for it [45]. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

2015 Ikea murders

Coming here to avoid 3RR. As a result of a dispute on Matthew C. Whitaker, I have been keeping an eye on User:E.M.Gregory's contribs. He started 2015 Ikea murders for political reasons only per the edit comment). He supported this political view with sources from Breitbart. I knew these were not RS, but tried to stay uninvolved - I notified the Sweden Wikiproject to keep an eye on the article here. They did so, and some cleanup was done, including the addition of failed verification templates on all the sources in the Impact section (the "political part" which is the article creator's claimed focus) at the time. EM Gregory has removed those templates twice and left the sources they are tied to in the article. I restored the templates once, but I'm not going to editwar about it.

In the interests of disclosure, substantial errors were found and corrected on the aforementioned Whitaker article by myself and others, as evidenced by the Talk page, where I and others have documented several and I would note that there was no engagement by E.M.Gregory on the article talk until the initial matter was brought to ANI as the the result of a PA towards me. There is also a pattern: aside from the massive puffery removed on the Whitaker article, another sourcing error was found on another article, apparently due to a typo (because "Whitney" and "Bingham" are very close together on the keyboard, I guess). These "mistakes" seem to be far too prevalent, including what the initial PA was claimed to be. I'd note that I have also been accused of POV-pushing on illegal immigration, which is an issue I don't even edit. The intermediate diff showing the strikeout of a comment disregarding consensus is pretty interesting, too.

However, if that is, instead, the focus of EM Gregory's editing (aside from combating supposed "academic injustice" via Whitaker), that is a problem if not done fairly. The editing pattern is damaging to the encyclopedia (like moving an article during AfD), and the unwillingness to assume responsibility for the "mistakes" and errors (instead claiming "accidents", "wikihounding" and "SPAs") is a detriment to collegial editing. I'd take an interaction ban if this were indeed a personal issue on my part, but it isn't; EMG's editing pattern (and the IDIDNTHEARTHAT associated with it) is damaging to the encyclopedia, and it's simply not an isolated problem anymore, because it's cropping up on every article he edits. MSJapan (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• Frankly I am fed up with User:MSJapan's persistent WIKIHOUNDING. This editor has been WIKIHOUNDING me since I made a simple editing error the week before last, for which I swiftly apologized, and has repeatedly stated that s/he would be glad if I left Wikipedia. I believe that her/his goal is to chase me off Wikipedia. At first, I thought the WIKIHOUNDING was a mere overreaction and have refrained form bringing this to ANI. I hate the aggression on Wikipedia. Today the editor's language leads me to suspect a POV motive. Or, perhaps, a nervous breakdown. Whatever MSJapan's editor's motives, his/her behavior is an overreaction to any actual errors I have committed. Certainly, however, MSJapan's approach is an excellent way to convince rational people to avoid editing Wikipedia.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Then stop editing contrary to policy. You keep adding sources to articles that do not support the statements you want to make. Wikipedia is not a place for your original research, and you don't understand that. Nobody should have go around cleaning up your messes because you didn't do youe due diligence. You don't start a bio article to do nothing but write about scandals, and you don't start an event article to talk about politics. You especially don't remove "verification failed" templates from sources. Respond to issues instead of making ad hominem attacks. Actually, when someone disputes your sources, you need to engage in discussion, not just revert "because it's sourced." Your problem is that you think your opinions trump policies and procedures, and they don't. In short, act like a good contributor, and perhaps people will treat you like one. Until that time, you need to deal with the consequences of your editing behavior. On another note to the admins, have I not provided enough diffs to show the pattern of behavior and lack of engagement to resolve the problem? MSJapan (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

If more diffs are needed, this was my removal for clear synth, the talk diff where I explained such, and a wholesale reversion of the edit, despite the talk thread being opened. That's the behavioral point - I made an edit in accordance with policy, explained why on talk in accordance with policy, and was reverted rather than engaged on talk. The substance of the edit is not at question here in this thread.

I'd also note that this AfD diff on an article EMG is a good indicator as well; the user thinks that writing a BLP focusing on a perpetrator is OK even when it is substantially about the event, and feels that following policies in such cases is "against consensus." The same went for the substantive version of Matthew C. Whitaker before any other editors got involved - a BLP with little to no BLP. There is a similar sourcing discussion on EMG's page here, and prod after prod after prod. EMG has refactored comments at least twice, and has a copyvio notice. I would note that a university bio was OK as a source for David_Mikics (who "automatically passed PROF" on that source), thought a "self-referenced description was OK" on Susya for an NGO, but a uni bio was "unsourced hagiography" on Matthew C. Whitaker. Again, this isn't content, it's editing conduct. When the source suits his purpose, it's OK, and when it doesn't, it isn't, no matter what.

Wikihounding seems to be a common fallback when someone disagrees with his editing and he can't get his way. He did that to Auslondoner after previously having falsely accused him of abusing SPEEDY and canvassing. He also goes after editors who tag his work as if they're in the wrong for tagging unsourced and single source articles. No one is responsible for the EMG's lack of competence other than him, and he's clearly not willing to accept that. MSJapan (talk) 18:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• This series of edits by E.M.Gregory violates NPOV by exaggerating the connection between the IKEA murders and the rise of Sweden's anti-immigration politics. E.M.Gregory's sentence, "The attack is said to have contributed to producing a major uptick in support for the Sweden Democrats Party, which pledges to limit immigration," falsely portrays the two sources, both of which only mention the IKEA murders as a recent element rather than as a major influence. Challenged on this point, E.M.Gregory expanded the problem, adding a source written before the murders (!!) as well as an opinion piece from the UK which fails to describe the IKEA murders as having a major influence on the popularity of the Sweden Democrats Party. This looks like political advocacy to me, not encyclopedic writing. I'm seeing poor work by E.M.Gregory, not hounding by MSJapan. Binksternet (talk) 18:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• • Here's a statement directly from E.M.Gregory that shows exactly why there's an editing conduct issue: [46]. MSJapan (talk) 20:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
  • And apparently he's attacking other users as well, later apologies aside: [47] MSJapan (talk) 22:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Also, if a problem has been identified, can we please have some actual disciplinary action on top of the problem identification? The user's behavior is getting ridiculous, to the point of effectively inventing things to change. It's actually a minor improvement for once, but the behavior around it negates the whole thing, as the change was made only as a way to attack me (not to improve the content). This should not be the level that it takes to get a minor positive contribution out of the user, either. Said user, by the way, despite being notified of the ANI, hasn't actually addressed anything stated herein (of which there is a substantial pattern illustrated by diffs in several articles, talk pages, and AfDs) other than to accuse me of POV editing and mental instability. I consistently address content, and he consistently addresses me, not the content. Maybe I simply haven't been clear in what I wish to be done, so here it is: The shoddy disruptive POV editing all over Wikipedia and the personal attacks in response to content edits from this user need to stop, by sanction if necessary. MSJapan (talk) 16:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

And some NPA [48]. MSJapan (talk) 20:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

which the user attempted to refactor out of the discussion, removing another editor's comment as well: [49] MSJapan (talk) 00:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Persistant unconstructive accusations

I hate to do this as I always try to assume good faith in every editors' contributions but there has been one editor that has consistently been unconstructive in his activity on the page of Paul Singer (businessman). Though me and User:SegataSanshiro1 have engaged in thorough discussion, he has made several false accusations about me on the grounds of WP:HARASSMENT and violated WP:BLP on Talk:Paul Singer (businessman) by giving his unwarranted opinion on the subject. Even after several attempts to remain civil by focusing on content rather than slamming the subject and accusing me of COI, he continues his hostile activity. I don't know if any sanctions are justified in this situation but I wanted to get a second opinion on how to handle this. Below is an incomplete list of some of SegataSanshiro's edits I have an issue with:

• [50]
• [51]
• [52]
• [53]
• [54]
• [55]

Thanks in advance for the help. Meatsgains (talk) 23:38, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed his/her recent accusation against you [56] on the Paul Singer talk page. I'm sorry you've been attacked in this way--I'm familiar with your editing history and it is clear to me you've edited in good faith and that you've attempted to apply Wikipedia policies fairly. It seems the editor has an axe to grind with Paul Singer and you've received the brunt of his/her wrath. I hope action is taken to protect you from further unsubstantiated attacks. Safehaven86 (talk) 00:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I would like to clarify that I asked many times politely to disclose any conflicts of interests and this was repeatedly ignored. I think given this editor's string of edits and extremely odd editing behaviour on the page in question, the accusation is hardly unfounded and doesn't constitute abuse. There have been many cases of paid editing surrounding the pages of businesses and wealthy businesspeople reported in the press and this user's edits fit that pattern of behaviour. Of course, he could also have a genuine and profound long-term interest in a 70 year old hedge fund manager, which is why I posed it as a question on numerous occasions. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 17:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I have denied your false accusations, not ignored them, multiple times [57] [58] and yet you continue your antics and attacks. My editing behavior has always been civil and of good faith. Meatsgains (talk) 17:59, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you asked many times for Meatsgains to disclose a COI. But Meatsgains didn't disclose a COI. There are two options: they don't have a COI, so they can't possibly disclose one, or they do have a COI, but they are lying about it. If you truly feel that Meatsgains has a COI, you need to bring that up at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Repeatedly badgering another user about a suspected COI is not productive. If there's evidence of one, bring it up and let the investigation begin. Personally, I think the assertion that Meatsgains has a COI is dubious given the editor's long and varied edit history and lack of disciplinary action against him/her. But certainly repeatedly accusing someone of COI, having that person deny it, but then continuing to accuse them is only resulting in spinning your wheels. Either drop it, or move forward on the COI noticeboard. Safehaven86 (talk) 00:04, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

These continuing attacks should stop. The long time editor has explicitly stated he has no COI yet the accusations continue. It is a disruptive provocation. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

COI editing and personal attacks on Democracy & Nature and Talk:Democracy & Nature

This article is mainly edited by a few editors who only edit this article and two related ones (Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos). Although I have tried to explain clearly what problems I see with the article as it currently stands, I continue to be accused of editing with a political bias by John sargis (as well as an IP editor, 165.120.27.172, but I assume that is the same person who forgot to log in). I consider this a personal attack and have notified the editor of this. This was again answered with a personal attack. The editor's user page and talk page show that this person has a history of such attacks. The editor also has a COI with this article, having published himself in this journal several times (e.g., [59] and [60]). In view of these repeated attacks and persistent failure to AGF, perhaps some editor here can have a look. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 12:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• You assume wrong what you think is my IP address. It is not me. You should be sure about your "facts" before making veiled presumptions against me. After I repeatedly showed you the irregularities about the way wiki rules are applied in terms of what you see as "problems" with the article, you blame me for attacking you. I am pointing out the foolish consistencies in the way the rules are applied in that there are many other articles that suffer from the same "rule", but it seems they only apply to D&N, even after it has been pointed out to you those other articles. If there are wiki rules that are “double standards” and an administrator enforces them, then logic dictates that the administrator is biased. This is not a personal attack. Furthermore, I do question your motives since if you think I did attack you personally, you threatened to take me to the WP:ANI board to get me banned. I question your motives, because before you post a grievance against a user with the board, you must FIRST try to resolve the issue on my talk page. Which you did not do. Thus you are harassing me. And I am asking now that an administrator can have a look for proof at my talk page. Thanks. John sargis (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• The issue was discussed at Talk:Democracy & Nature, so there was no need to start yet another discussion on your talk page. And apparently there are situations where you do want to use those darned Wikipedia rules... --Randykitty (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but again as I have repeated, I want the rules to be evenly applied, which you did not do. The rule says that you go to my talk page to iron out the personal issue(s) and not at the article page which is inappropriate. You bypassed and undercut the rule so that you could preemptively get me banned by going immediately to the administrators. This is harassment. So again a foolish consistency underscores how you use or not use wiki rules for your convenience. John sargis (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• Your insinuation, Randykitty, is I am hypocritical when you say, “apparently there are situations where you do want those darned Wikipedia rules.” implying I am biased is a personal attack. I replied, above, I want the rules applied evenly, but yet you are insisting not to use them evenly as evidenced not only in your discussions here and especially at your post at 19:36 (UTC) above, but also at D&N page where last year you tried the same editorial tactics with no success of deletion—and now you are at it again. It is difficult for it not come to mind that you have a political bias, but I do not know. John sargis (talk) 21:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oh man... Could somebody not involved please have a look at this? Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 08:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• And ongoing PA by another editor, Panlis, who exclusively edits topics related to the ones mentioned above. Given the vehemence and the accusations, I feel almost like I am dealing with a sect here. --Randykitty (talk) 12:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• User Randykitty, as demonstrated in Talk:Democracy & Nature, has consistently tried to impose his way of editing the article, by adding repeatedly tags and requests for citations, that were effectively shown to him that are at least irrelevant to the article and constituted the -to my mind as well- justifiable assumption that he indeed maintains a bias toward the entry. His recurrent editing "spree" has been accompanied by his unwillingness to answer to documented and logical questions brought to his attention in the Talk Page. So the assumption of his maintaining a bias towards the article does not constitute a Personal Attack, as so easily and conveniently Randykitty accuses me and other editors of, and this is because all criticizing was aimed at his activity in the entry, accompanied by documented and -to a decent degree- laborious argumentation on his recurrent and lately almost totally exorbitant actions showcased in the Talk Page. And this is particularly so, when in the meanwhile and while he accused the other editors, I tried to contribute to the article by particularly addressing his demands for citations, from the moment they seemed somehow sensible. At the same time, the only thing Randykitty did was mainly deleting, and adding tags!..

Then, Randykitty didn't take the time to activate the Dispute Resolution procedure, before bringing the matter to the Administrators' board. On the contrary he accuses the other editors involved in the discussion, with a striking nerve, of being a "sect"! But this is to say easily when an editor is short of answers to the points raised by me or anybody else who out of necessity does not spend his life in checking wiki entries and he resorts to the facile ‘accusation’ that "I exclusively edit topics related to the ones mentioned above”. But why specialist knowledge on a topic is something wrong when editing an article in an encyclopedia and in Wikipedia, when of course it's not a field for advocacy? Yes, I do have specialist knowledge on the topic and this is why I take party on discussions related to it rather than on brain cancer surgery. Unless of course, according to Wikipedia rules, people with no obvious knowledge on a topic or on the meaning or the function of a theoretical journal should have more say on any topic, as long as they have memorized some wiki rules. Of course rules are needed but the issue is how (as every rule) are interpreted. Panlis (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Do we really need to give any more rope to this group maintaining a walled garden, per WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:NPA. --Randykitty (talk) 08:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Randykitty increasingly acts in -to say the very least- bad faith and total unwillingness to follow any gradual protocol required by Wikipedia before dropping in the row and without any documented reply his "allegations" in this board. Now he demonstrates once again his blatant unwillingness to take part in the discussion in the Democracy & Nature Talk Page and to reply to the concrete arguments posed against his theses, when at the same time, he continues adding tags that have been demonstrated to him to be at best irrelevant and at worst, totally biased as [I (and other editors) have tried to prove here, without any at all, further participation to the dialogue by this obviously Disruptive Editor. It's also becoming now more than clear that the same user uses his "credentials" of thousands of edits in articles and of being an administrator, so as not only to impose his unacceptable editing methods to the D&N entry, despite my and other editors' best attempts to concretely and in detail show his inconsistency (and, ultimately), bias in this case, but to also throw mud against all other editors with whom he simply does not agree with: By putting at the venture labels on them of the sort of "WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NPA" etc..

And all this when

(a) positive response to some of his sensible demands was accurately applied to the entry,

(b) his blatant inconsistencies were meticulously shown with specific examples and passages in the Talk Page, without him caring to give any concrete reply to my and others' argumentation in the Talk Page,

(c) he jumped without any constraint to blame me and other editors of WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NPA etc., without any effort on his part to follow a normal procedure of the many available in WP:DR and elsewhere before resorting to these accusations and before bringing me and others to the WP:ANI, and finally,

(d) he continues even at this moment his disruptive editing and undocumented reverses without giving any explanation at all in the talk page for this, while at the same time he has the "nerve" of accusing me (with the non-argument) of "not addressing the underlying problems" (!), something that I tried to do in -I think- a decently laborious and well-documented attempt! Hence Randykitty's action that suits to his case could also be showcased vividly in the following clear passages from WP:DISRUPTSIGNS:

"A disruptive editor is an editor who exhibits tendencies such as the following: (...)

1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors." (...)
2. Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging"; adds unjustified {{citation needed}} tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable." (...)

Panlis (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• This thread had been archived. I have restored it in hope of solliciting some input about this case of SPA editors owning some articles. --Randykitty (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Having completely lost the argument, Randykitty now returns (as was fully expected of him!) with yet another wp rule: owning. However, once again, he simply distorts another wp rule. He has no evidence whatsoever to support his new allegation apart from the fact that the editors who tried to make sense of his multiple tagging (like John Sargis and Panlis) were involved before in exchanges related to D&N and related entries. However, the owning rule itself stresses that “It is quite reasonable to take an interest in an article on a topic you care about − perhaps you are an expert” and Panlis himself admitted his special knowledge on the topic. Randykitty has to show convincingly that “this watchfulness has become possessiveness” and he NEVER MANAGED TO DO SO, particularly as the editors involved (as well as myself) tried repeatedly to improve the entry following those of Randykitty’s suggestions which were specific enough and looked reasonable,e.g. providing the citations and the links to references he asked for. I also supposed that as long as he does not just put tags all around, without usually giving concrete advice on what has to be done, the editors already involved –and hopefully others as well—would continue helping to improve the entry. Unless of course his real aim is not to improve the entry but simply to have it deleted, after his failed attempt for deletion last year.165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Still no comments from uninvolved editors. --Randykitty (talk) 08:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
• According to Randykitty’s “interpretation” of wp rules, all comments from ‘involved’ editors can easily be dismissed or ignored, irrespective of the quality of the arguments concerned, just because these editors are interested in a particular topic on which they happen to have some knowledge. On the other hand, his own heavy involvement in this particular entry in the past when he tried (and failed) to have it deleted, does not matter simply because he has managed to make 62,000 edits in the short period of 2 years and 10 months - obviously working on a full-time basis - i.e. over 60 edits per day, apart from starting over 60 new entries!165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
• After the personal attacks, we now progress to taunting. Directly ON Ani... --Randykitty (talk) 14:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
• I am not personally attacking or taunting anybody and that was obviously not my intention. I simply stated some OBVIOUS FACTS and Randykitty, instead of trying to dispute them, resorts to his familiar tactics of playing the victim.165.120.27.172 (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Jaronie

Please block Jaronie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) at least temporarily for repeat self-promotion despite warnings. Thank you. Ariadacapo (talk) 16:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from, but AN/I needs a little more substance than that. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, going through their edit history, here is some substance:

• The following edits: [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] add a reference to a paper co-authored by Jaronie Mohd Jani
• The following edits: [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] add a reference to another paper co-authored by Jaronie Mohd Jani
• The following edits: [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] add a reference to a third paper co-authored by Jaronie Mohd Jani
• The following edits: [80] [81] [82] add a reference to a paper co-authored by Jaronie Mohd Jani

Of the user’s other edits, one adds a seemingly-unrelated reference, one is on an unrelated topic, a couple added copyvio images (which is how I got pulled into this), all others are minor.

User:Ohnoitsjamie warned them yesterday but this morning here we are again. Ariadacapo (talk) 11:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• So, we are lucky enough to recruit a published author in a technical field and what is WP's immediate reaction? Call for a block! How the hell is this reckoned to be a positive action?

What content we used to have here was not constructed by people who were very conscientious about enforcing policy, it was built by people who understood a topic. Why are we now seeking to drive them away as rudely as possible? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

A new sock drawer opens

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

So far it contains:

• User:Brian Sadowski is unemployed and on welfare (blocked under UAA)
• User:Favo is unemployed and on welfare (blocked under UAA)
• User:So ironic anymore (still active)

I assume this is someone who has had a run-in with Bsadowskil. I'm off to bed; if others could keep an eye on things overnight I'd appreciate it. GoldenRing (talk) 17:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I see the third one has also been blocked now. Please keep an eye on the situation still. GoldenRing (talk) 17:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Judging from its "style", this is the life form that's been haunting Bongwarrior's user/talk pages for quite a while, and those of anyone who sees fit to interfere. WP:RBI. Favonian (talk) 17:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Hyrdlak

A story as old as time. On 19 September 2009 User:Hyrdlak (a single purpose account with 204 edits since: 2009-09-19) created an entry called Tomasz Kamusella and by the next day increased its size to 18,780 bytes (most of it unreferenced), with a few quotes from filfak.ni.ac.yu (Server not found). By 8 July 2012 Hyrdlak increased the same bio to 26,744 bytes at which point it became glaringly obvious to me I began to suspect that Hyrdlak writes about himself. By 26 February 2014 Hyrdlak expanded the entry to 29,467 bytes with a bunch of junk from his own filing cabinet (no third party assessment).[83]

I tried to help him write a better article about himself his single purpose, but ... no can do. He reverted me twice without addressing my concerns, and instead, by 10 February 2015 expanded his the bio to 31,960 bytes. This is where the whole thing went through the roof. Please, check out his aggressive and dismissive outbursts when other Wikipedians (i.e. Voluneer Marek) began reacting to his silly game. Hyrdlak pasted the same series of rants on several talk pages including Talk:Tomasz Kamusella: I suspect that Volunteer Marek and Poeticbent may be the very same user. --Hyrdlak 14:41, 23 August 2015. Meanwhile, Hyrdlak also created an entry about his work called Polsko-angielsko-niemiecki Glosariusz regionalny Województwa Opolskiego, a fringe glossary in the Polish language which sparked outrage by his Kamusella's own employer. See: "The university distanced itself from the author of a glossary" in Gazeta Wyborcza newspaper. What Hyrdlak does not understand is that we do acknowledge his academic accomplishments of one Tomasz Kamusella, but treating others like shit is not going to get him Hyrdlak anywhere around here. Poeticbent talk 18:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Relevant diffs

• First revert by Hyrdlak
• Second revert
• Third revert
• Fourth revert
• Fifth revert
• Revenge editing on unrelated BLP because it was created by me
• Rant on my talk page
• The same rant copy-pasted into Voluneer Marek talk page
• Same rant copy-pasted into his own talk page
• Same rant copy-pasted into the talk page of his own WP:BLP bio

• This could be exciting, but let's do small things first. a. Poeticbent, are you in fact Volunteer Marek, and are you also an Auburn fan? b. is that fringe dictionary notable by our standards? If not, put it up at AfD. Drmies (talk) 03:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• As for Tomasz_Kamusella, that does not look very notable. DGG, Randykitty, do you have an opinion? Drmies (talk) 03:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Wait a minute, Poeticbent et al. I was looking at this version of the biography, which is indeed too much like a resume. But the references in note 23 aren't in the current version of the article anymore, and that's unfortunate since those references could easily make the subject notable per WP:PROF--if legit, they would show that the book, The Politics of Language and Nationalism in Modern Central Europe, had a significant influence. Drmies (talk) 03:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

He's probably notable. 6 books by major English language publishers, include Palgrave Macmillan, an important publisher for this subject. I cannot see the article on the fringe dictionary, but I suspect that it may be a disagreement over the status of a particular dialect. I would redirect the article on it--I cannot imagine that would be sufficiently important by itself, unless it stirred up a very major controversy. (As a general rule, trying to write an article on an author & also one on a minor book does indicate a tendency to promotionalism (which is why we discourage autobiographies) , but the bio article in its present state seems acceptable. DGG ( talk ) 04:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Kamusella is probably notable. The glossary is not. DGG, you edited one of these articles at some point (I recall seeing your name in the page history), and put in a POV tag on one of them, which was then removed ... by Hyrdlak.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Found it: here and here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't know about Kamusella (maybe he is notable), but I'm also for deleting the article about the glossary. It's not even sourced now... Peter238 (talk) 04:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't know whether Kamusella is notable. Quite probably, given the books with major publishers as remarked upon by DGG, although the long post on the article's talk page about how Kamusella meets many of the criteria of WP:PROF mainly betrays inexperience with how this guideline usually is applied. I don't think the fellowship of the Royal Historical Society confers notability, given the large number of fellows listed on that organization's homepage. In this case, notability most probably will come from multiple book reviews of his books (positive or negative, that doesn't really matter). I don't think his citation record is strong enough to indicate a pass of PROF#1. Below mention is made about "crazies vs non-crazies", with Kamusella in the former category. However, given the readership at St. Andrews, apparently obtained after the controversy in Poland, I'd actually be surprised if he really were a fringe/crazy. The article needs a lot of work, though... --Randykitty (talk) 08:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is indeed some excitement to be had here. But strictly speaking it's a (regional) glossary not a dictionary. Anyway, the excitement... this is actually about a manufactured controversy which has been used as a way of self-promotion by one Tomasz Kamusella, which started off in the "real world" and then, thanks to the efforts of User:Hyrdlak made its way onto Wikipedia. Some serious BLP violations and slander of several individuals included along the way.

I started writing it up but then realized it'd end up being TL;DR. So here's the run down: Tomasz Kamusella = fringe "Silesian Nationalist" activist of borderline notability (this version). Publishes this glossary in 2004. The glossary has some wacky ideas in it (Opole's not really part of Poland, Polish-German border is illegal, eastern regions of Poland are really "Germany under temporary Polish occupation" etc). Kamusella in the glossary claims that it was published with backing and financial support from some local politicians and government institutions. When the book comes out these politicians freak out because they don't want to be associated with these loony ideas and apparently they neither gave money to Kamusella nor "supported" him in anyway. They want the passage which mentions them removed. Minor controversy of local regional significance ensues ... for like a week or so. Publisher also says "oh shit, I didn't realize the kind of crap that was in there". One of the said politicians makes an off-hand comment to the local town newspaper to the effect that he wouldn't mind seeing copies of the book burned. Publisher pulls the book, I'm guessing cuz they didn't want to get their ass sued.

Kamusella then runs around yelling about censorship, about how his book was burned and claims it was the "first book banned in post-Communist Poland". Which is all kinds of nonsense. He writes numerous letters to big name politicians who studiously ignore him. Kamusella publishes these letters himself on various websites and tries to make as much noise as possible. Like I said, a manufactured controversy designed to sell copies of the glossary and give him name recognition.

On Wikipedia User:Hyrdlak, who is a single purpose account dedicated to promoting Kamusella (see Poeticbent's links above - all articles created and edited by them promote Kamusella in some way or another), brings this whole sorry situation to Wikipedia. This version of the article basically gives you the flavor. There's a ton of misrepresentation of essentially the single source ([84]) on the topic in there and host of BLP violations. There's a bunch similar in related articles started/edited by Hyrdlak. To keep this at least a bit short I'll let you figure out what those are, but I'll be happy to elaborate upon request.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

BTW, if someone gets the idea that this is some kind of Polish-vs-German thing, think again. One of the people being slandered in Hyrdlak's version of the article is Ryszard Galla, probably the most notable member of the German Minority Party in Poland. It's not Pole vs. German, it's rather crazy vs. non-crazy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:29, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Well said, Volunteer Marek. I was just wondering. Would it be possible that User:Hyrdlak created User:Franek K. on 2012-08-06 to beef up the ethno-nationalist fight for Silesia already known from the "glossary" article? Franek K. was featured on this AN/I page in October 2014. He said about himself: I live in Poland, I am a teacher at school (bingo!) and I know - most of informations by POlish authors about Silesians and Kashubians is propaganda. – On 22 October 2014 Sandstein blocked Franek K. with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) - with a rationale: (Clearly not here to contribute to building the encyclopedia: Ethno-nationalist battleground editing, see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WP:AE&oldid=630623388#Franek_K. (not an AE block)). -- Poeticbent talk 05:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Is anybody aware of WP:OUTING?

"Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia. ... Posting such information about another editor is an unjustifiable and uninvited invasion of privacy and may place that editor at risk of harm outside of their activities on Wikipedia.

..attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block"

Poeticbent's claim that in 2009 "User:Hyrdlak (...) created an entry about himself" clearly violates these basic rules of privacy. Poeticbent is very well aware of this policy because his own identity was disclosed some years ago in the context of WP:EEML. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:02, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Read again what you just posted, HerkusMonte. Your quote from WP:OUTING contradicts your own statement because writing an article about yourself amounts to self-disclosed information which is not considered outing. Please familiarize yourself with WP:AGF and follow the WP:NPA rules. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 13:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

It's just your claim, it's just your conclusion of what you think might be the real identity of Hyrdlak. If you just could tell us where and when did he admit to be Kamusella. HerkusMonte (talk) 17:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Please stop beating around the bush and propping up claims with willful ignorance of policies directed against WP:SELFPROMOTION, HerkusMonte. You have a history of edit warring in articles devoted to Silesia and other parts of Poland from similar viewpoint. Your single largest contribution to Wikipedia is adding two thousand German names to locations in Poland ... as if the Empire never ceased to exist.[85] Poeticbent talk 18:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: In the Polish Wikipedia there's a page called pl:Wikipedysta:Hyrdlak/Dariusz Jerczyński with a wall of text (13,017 bytes) of pure, resourceless promo about one pl:Dariusz Jerczyński, article deleted twice (in November 2013, and February 2015) and nominated for deletion for the third time on 30 August 2015.[86] – If we were to believe what we read, Tomasz Kamusella and Dariusz Jerczyński are writing friends from the ethno-nationalist publishing venue called Wydawnictwo: Narodowa Oficyna Śląska,[87] citing each other as experts wherever they can.[88] – In the linked paper Kamusella demands that the Council of Europe send a fact-finding mission to study the situation of the Silesians in Poland, similar to Morgenthau mission to Poland in 1919. Henry Morgenthau, Sr. was sent in to investigate allegations of pogroms against Jews, not ethno-nationalist writings of a few local ideologues who believe that: "policies in Czechoslovakia and Poland convinced the majority of the Slavophones [sic] ... to be Germans, rather than Czechs or Poles (Jerczyński, 2006: 83-233).^{(page 51 and 66, or 10-25/33 in Kamusella)} Poeticbent talk 19:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

May I just quote WP:SELFPROMOTION:

"==How to handle conflicts of interest==

===Avoid outing===

Further information: Wikipedia:Harassment § Posting of personal information

Wikipedia places importance on the ability of editors to edit pseudonymously. When investigating COI editing, the policy against harassment takes precedence; it requires that Wikipedians must take care not to reveal the identity of editors against their wishes. Instead, examine editors' behavior and refer to Wikipedia:Checkuser. In asking an editor if they have COI, the request should clearly indicate that it is entirely optional for them to answer."

WP:COI explicitly warns not to disclose an editor's real life identity. WP:OUTING is a serious harassment and you should really stop your personal attacks against me. HerkusMonte (talk) 09:30, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

HerkusMonte looks to be right here, Hyrdlak never appears to say anywhere on Wikipedia that he actually is Tomasz Kamusella, so, stating that Hyrdlak is Tomasz Kamusella is indeed an act of outing , as such , the claim made by Poeticbent needs to be removed and oversighted as outing is flat not allowed on Wikipedia. KoshVorlon We are all Kosh 11:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• You're not being serious. No-one in Wikipedia ever admits to writing an article about themselves, but that's not the point. I did the digging myself (not you, not anybody) and posted the results above for all to see proving WP:conflict of interest based on readily available external sources. That's it. I admit that after my investigation I can no longer say who is who ... and so I redacted my opening statement above. The only conclusive proof is edit warring by a WP:SPA with probable WP:COI, as well as suspicion of sock-puppetry. Everything else stays. Poeticbent talk 16:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that one cannot say "this person is obviously engaging in shameless self-promotion, is slandering people they've had real-life disputes with on Wikipedia and is obviously editing with a serious conflict of interest" without at least suggesting that that person is... actually doing that. In other words, that they are that person.

Anyway, you can oversight any claims about Hyrdlak's supposed identity, but the fact remains that Hyrdlak is a single purpose account which is engaged in masivvely promoting Tomasz Kamusella and who uses Wikipedia as a platform to attack people who've had disagreements with Kamusella in real life in a way which slanders them and which involves some very serious BLP violations.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek Since you chimed in, are you going to answer Drmies's question a. Poeticbent, are you in fact Volunteer Marek,? I ignored it the first time, but now, since you've responded to something PoeticBent said, it would be a pertinent question (not just that one instance, but that and the other instances Drmies mentioned ) KoshVorlon We are all Kosh 15:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Uh.... I don't think that was a serious question, just Drmies joking around (he's feeling insecure about Bama's upcoming season so he's getting his kicks in while he still can). But for your edification I'll answer it: no, I am not, in fact, or in otherwise, Poeticbent. I did write a poem once. Wanna hear it? Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Dolovis and page creation problems

Apologies for the length of this report. The tl;dr version is that I believe Dolovis (talk · contribs)' page creation habits routinely ignore policy, guidelines and past consensus, and represent a drain on community time that far outweighs what little value they provide. I recommend this be stopped. Resolute 23:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

---

Dolovis is an editor with whom myself and a few other editors have had a long and contentious history with regarding article creation. He first came to ANI back in 2011 in which he was creating and/or moving pages and gaming the system as part of a diacritics war that was brewing at the time. He was briefly banned from moving pages, and later re-banned from moving any pages related to diacritics after immediately breaching a promise to reform his behaviour in that area. To the best of my knowledge, that ban remains active. (He is also under a BASC imposed one-way interaction ban with Djsasso, whom Dolovis has targeted more than once, and most recently with scrutiny-evading sockpuppet - that condition placed as part of an unblock request that a clearly divided ArbCom reluctantly granted.)

I have long been an extreme critic of Dolovis' habits of creating one or two sentence sub-stubs of marginally notable or completely non-notable hockey players, often relying on the bare minimum allowed by the WP:NHOCKEY SNG (recent example: Simon Suoranta; literally a couple thousand more examples available) - inevitably using just a stats sheet or player profile page from a league site as the sole source. His other big habit is to create redirects for non-notable players to any random article that might kind of fit, pretty much just on speculation that said player might become notable someday. I have long felt that these creations are ego-driven efforts to simply grab the first edit for as many new pages as he can, and not done out of a true desire to improve the project. Or, as Ravenswing recently put it: "This isn't any attempt to improve the encyclopedia; this is a manic rush to Game High Score for article 'creation.'" Dolovis' only real goal with Wikipedia is to create as many new pages as he can, and he has shown complete and utter contempt for virtually every policy or guideline that stands in his way. The result is that editors who also monitor in this space have to spend an inordinate amount of time curating and reviewing these articles, while his contempt for policies has caused a great deal of wasted time for editors and admins at WP:AFD, WP:REFUND, WP:RFD - By my count, Dolovis has had over 100 articles deleted at AFD alone; Ravenswing targeted about 75 articles of his for AFD in January 2014. Only ONE ended up as a keep. Four others were no consensus closes, the rest deleted. This represented a massive waste of time for those of us who had to do the research after creation because Dolovis clearly and obviously did not do any research before creation.

The problems with his creations go far deeper than just a disregard for notability criteria. He has created two speculative articles on NHL teams that don't exist - Quebec NHL team and Las Vegas NHL team - that, aside from being failures of WP:CRYSTAL, I have realized are unattributed copy-paste jobs from Potential National Hockey League expansion. In short, Dolovis is creating copyright violations because it is easier to rip off someone else's work to try and grab that first edit for any future NHL team. Another of his recent creation, 2014 KHL Junior Draft, is likewise an unattributed copy of someone else's article (in this case, 2013 KHL Junior Draft). He has also previously tried to speculate on future NHL teams as well - in this case, ironically, one of the few examples of his putting real work into something (assuming it wasn't likewise just ripped off from someone else's work).

Dolovis has deliberately created articles on non-notable players and failed to defend them when PRODded (most recent example: Pavel Karnaukhov), because he knows he can just run to WP:REFUND and request a history undeletion to get that first edit back if the player later becomes notable and someone else recreates the article. This is something that has been picked up on by others. This only wastes the time of three separate editors: whomever reviews the article, who deletes it at PROD, and who restores the article later. This is blatant gaming the system. In that thread, Ravenswing also shows numerous links of Dolovis misrepresenting sources to try and claim a player meets an easier criteria of NHOCKEY or misrepresenting NHOCKEY itself to try and justify these creations.

Dolovis is even worse when it comes to redirect creation. When he knows there is no chance of an article surviving more than a few hours, he just redirects pages to random, somewhat related targets with no regard for the fact that his actions actively hinder the search function. In fact, despite having these redirects deleted at least five times in the past two years, I STILL had to take two more to RFD this week, which are again heading to a delete. As of right now, he has 17 redirects listed at RFD, and every single one is leaning delete. And I am preparing to RFD dozens more for the exact same reason.

His non-hockey creations are no better, This article was clearly created as a synthesis of Van Gogh self-portrait (1889) - Dolovis obviously does not have those sources and never read them. He simply copied them from the latter article and reworded a couple passages to "create" his version. And then there is this. That might be the laziest article creation in Wikipedia history. He only expanded it (likely a cleaned up version of Google Translate) after someone else reviewed and prodded it.

All of this is just a long winded way of saying that Dolovis' page creations are of such a low value, that his continual disregard for policy and guidelines - including policies on copyright violations - and that the time wasted in cleaning up, PRODding, AFDing and RFDing is so high, that allowing Dolovis to continue creating pages like this represents such a drain on the community that I believe it needs to be stopped. This has been going on for years. As such, I would like to propose that Dolovis be indefinitely banned from creating any new pages in Wikipedia main space. Given he brags that he has started over 5800 pages, I would suggest that he could direct his future time into expanding those 5800 two sentence sub stubs. Resolute 23:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• Ah yes, Dolovis. Indef-blocked after a drawer full of socks and unblocked with a minor edit restriction--see this note by Thryduulf. That seems to have come about quite easily. Drmies (talk) 03:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• I completely endorse all Resolute has said and support an indef ban on new article creation by Dolovis. Dolovis is not only a disruptive presence, who's created an appalling amount of work for those who've had to clean up his messes, but he's been extremely tendentious over the years, filibustering at great length to keep his edit count high ... often at times in complete contradiction to arguments he made the week before. As you can see yourself from his edit history, he's far less interested in improving the encyclopedia as in racking up his new creation count, and has found the creation of implausible, desperately obscure redirects an easy way to do it.

  Honestly, I would really appreciate hearing from those in the BASC process who felt that Dolovis' well-merited indef block ought to be reversed. Leaving aside the minor edit restriction to which he agreed (and which he just last week sought to overturn), what led them to believe that he had changed his ways, what assurances did they receive that he would do so, and what monitoring did they undertake to ensure that he did? Ravenswing 06:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Can someone give some background here? The block log only says that it was a block evasion block (which seems odd to create new accounts since they wouldn't inflate your edit count) since the 2012 block and thus the standard offer that was the main basis for the unblock was for sock evasion and this doesn't seem to be the problem here. Is there a discussion about a redirect or article-creation ban (I think there's at least one other user with an ARBCOM ban with that kind of wording)? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

From the sockpuppet investigation, you can see that another account was being used to request deletion of articles created by Ravenswing and Djsasso, using the same rationale used in requests for deletion of articles created by Dolovis. isaacl (talk) 07:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so still nothing related to this specific problem (ignoring that the only response seemed to be "look at my edit count, I couldn't have done this"). Again, I'm not seeing a history of the new article abuse problem so examples of recent antics (there isn't a huge deleted edit history so there actually aren't a lot of editing articles that became deleted) would be helpful and then we're back to potential solutions: a proposal that Dolovis be banned from six months from creating a new article or redirect without the approval of an admin? (I'd suggest AFC but requiring admins would be a higher standard and one I've seen here before). Is so, suggest that and see if there's a consensus supporting that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't want to go too far into his SPI stuff since it is tangental to his article creation problem, and this was long enough as it is. But that was a hypocritical example of Dolovis using a sock in bad hand fashion to revenge target some of DJSasso and Ravenswing's oldest articles created using the exact same rationale as Ravenswing presented in nominating seven dozen of Dolovis' pages for deletion. Part of the reason why his deleted contributions list is deceptive is the fact that he knowningly creates articles that won't pass a PROD or AFD, but wants the first edit in history so he can request a history restore at WP:REFUND when someone else re-creates an article after the subject does become notable. But in short, he's had over 100 articles deleted at AFD, he's got about 100 redirects at RFD right now - he continues to create redirects of the type that have been consistently deleted at RFD for a few years now even though he is well aware of the consensus against them - and god only knows how many have been deleted through PROD, only to be restored later at REFUND. The long and the short of it is that we are at several hundred pages deleted or about to go, and what does stick, sticks only because they meet NHOCKEY or other SNGs by the skin of their teeth. Even then, those sub stubs themselves offer no value. Given his history of misrepresenting sources, it would honestly take more time than what any of us has to investigate and verify all of those pages as well. Ravenswing spent close to a month last year reviewing and AFDing less than 20% of his creations, at that time. And Dolovis is now getting into creating copyvios, which was the final impetus for this report. He's damned lucky I only picked up on those after his ill-advised request to have one edit restriction removed was archived, otherwise I would have presented this to arbcom in that process. As it is, it wastes our time to have to review this junk, it wastes an admin's time to deal with PROD requests on articles he knows won't stick, it wastes an admin's time at REFUND and it waste's everyone's time at AFD and RFD. Resolute 13:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Break

• At the moment, there are 103 such redirects up for "discussion" (read: deletion) at RfD:
  • Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 August 28#Pier-Olivier Pelletier (2 pages)
  • Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 August 31#NHL Draft redirects (13 pages)
  • Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 September 1#NHL team draft pick redirects (88 pages, not all Dolovis)

as well as

• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 December 23#Victor Rask (1 page, deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 4#Eamon McAdam (1 page, deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 4#Yan-Pavel Laplante (1 page, deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 July 6#Anton Karlsson (ice hockey, born 1996) (2 pages, both deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 June 22#Tommy Vannelli (3 pages, all deleted)

Anton Karlsson is archetypal of the page creation problem. Dolovis created this as an empty redirect to a page with no information about the player on 20 February 2014. It was prodded; Dolovis removed the prod; it was listed and then deleted at Rfd. Another editor created a page about this player some time later, when they became notable. Subsequently, Dolovis requested the history of their redirect be merged with this page, and is now credited as the creator of this content, even though they contributed exactly nothing to it. This is an WP:EDITCOUNTITIS problem, but a problem nonetheless.

The bigger problem, of course, is that of the 111 pages listed above, none have survived a deletion discussion (counting the 103 currently listed which are very likely to be deleted shortly, their discussions are really formalities at this point) and this wastes the community's time (it takes, by my count, 312 edits to list the 103 currently listed, not counting the actual discussion, plus subsequently taking up admins' time closing those discussions and deleting the redirects, plus time wasted when Dolovis requests history merges when someone else creates an article). Banning Dolovis from creating pages will not harm the encyclopedia at all, and will give other editors the opportunity to be given appropriate credit when they create pages about notable hockey players, which will further encourage the creation of those articles, which greatly benefits the project.

Thus (tl;dr) I support banning Dolovis from creating pages in any space, because I'm sure they'll just find a way to game a more limited ban. I have no comment on the socking issue as it seems unrelated to the page creation issue, and doesn't seem to be a current issue anyway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support I am going to keep this pretty brief because Resolute has done a very good job of summing up the issue. Dolovis continually creates articles he know will be almost instantly deleted. And when he can't even remotely argue an article is valid he creates a redirect to some random remotely related page that often has no information on the subject. He has been an extremely disruptive editor in all manner of ways from his ban on diacritics editing to the sockpuppeting to the creation of clearly non-notable pages that are a waste to the communities time. I actually support a full site ban. But I am happy to accept a page creation ban as a first step to see if that helps the situation. -DJSasso (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support a six-month topic ban against Dolovis creating articles or redirects without having it approved by an administrator. Proposing a dozens redirects will just annoy someone but if there's a new article, there's a chance to get it approved. I'm going to give a bit of leeway to see if Dolovis can propose articles of any worth to be created which would give us support to remove the ban in the future. Otherwise, there's no way to tell if the problems have been resolved or not. If there's no examples or new articles of the right quality to base this on, we can evaluate extending this in the future. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a very reasonable response; certainly Dolovis should be allowed to create articles if they are worth creating, and not just redirects or stubs on players which they admit are non-notable. However, I propose that this restriction be placed for 14 months. Why 14? Because this will actually prevent Dolovis from creating the mass of redirects from players drafted in the next year's draft. Otherwise, it's not really a sanction, they will pretty much automatically wait it out. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 00:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

In six months, Dolovis can either show that this restriction is no longer needed (by pointing to actual articles created after approval by an admin) or we'll see that Dolovis has done nothing in that way because Dolovis only wants to create stubs and redirects. If there are literally zero edits because this topic ban is essentially a de facto ban for that person (for a lot of editors, a minor topic ban causes a complete meltdown, but we'll see here), then we'll all better off I guess. The personality type that sockpuppets that much and argues that much just after agreeing to restrictions tells me it won't take six months for another problem to surface that this restriction won't matter much. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

On the face of it, this sounds reasonable. My worry, however, is that at no stage in his Wikipedia career has Dolovis embraced the premise of "You're right. I'm wrong. I recognize that I broke the rules, I'm sorry and I won't do it again." Over and over again, he argues for delay -- that some other appeals process be brought into play, that he'll agree to an entirely voluntary, short-term (and unenforceable) moratorium on objectionable behavior, that deadlines be extended for further comment. What would a six-month restriction solve that his nine-month block didn't?

Beyond that, who's the poor bastard admin who's going to get saddled with doing all the notability research on dozens of new articles, an area in which Dolovis is notoriously indifferent? Ravenswing 06:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Mentorship, is the route to take. We can't just destroy an editor, merely because he/she may annoys us. GoodDay (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Response by Dolovis

• Response by Dolovis: When I joined Wikipedia in 2010, I came across thousands one line stub articles about professional ice hockey articles. I found these articles helpful as they encouraged me to become active as an editor to work to improve such articles. One editor in particular, User:Patken4, had created thousands of stub articles about hockey players, (see Roy Mitchell (ice hockey), Randy Murray (ice hockey), and Darrell May (ice hockey) for just three of such examples) and I could see that much more such work was needed in this area. Following the example of Patken4, I volunteered myself into the IceHockey Project to create and improve articles about notable hockey players pursuant to WP:NHOCKEY. Working diligently as a GOOD FAITH editor, I created starter articles for not only NHL players, but also for other major and “Top level” leagues as defined by WP:NHOCKEY and WP:NHOCKEY/LA, including Swedish Hockey League, the Finnish Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League, Czech Extraliga. I dedicated myself to creating articles for all 808 major league players who played in the now defunct World Hockey Association, completing this task on June 4, 2014 (see talk page “thanks” for my efforts). Along the way I have also made many thousands of edits to improve other existing articles.

I believe in and have remained loyal to the Wikipedia Project, despite what I have perceived as bullying from some editors, including Resolute and DJSasso, who I feel have been harassing me since first joining the IceHockey Project. I have certainly made mistakes. I used to be involved in discussions, and often found myself disagreeing with Resolute and DJSasso – but following such discussions, I always tried to follow the consensus - whether I agreed with it or not. I now try to avoid such discussions.

I firmly believe that creating stub articles encourages others to add, build, improve, and work collaboratively on on this never ending project called Wikipedia, and yes, I am proud that I have contributed over 5,800 new articles to Wikipedia. I am not concerned if some have been since deleted, because I do not own them and I welcome the efforts of others to contribute to Wikipedia. The harsh welcome felt by most new editors discourages the creation of new articles, but I believe that new articles are the life-blood of Wikipedia. If one takes a look at my edit history, you will find no disruptive editing (yes, I have made mistakes, but I have never tried to disrupt Wikipedia). Despite Resolute's numerous and loud claims that I am a bad faith editor, I am not. Following Resolute's criticism that I was making one line “stub-stub” articles, I tried to take his criticism constructively to improve my stubs to be better. A look at my recent creations will show a pattern of making stub articles for notable subject pursuant to WP:IDEALSTUB, as a starting point for other editors to build upon. Resolute is trying to make the claim that I am disruptive because I am creating too many articles, so therefore I am creating work for the other editors. Following Resolute's thinking, if there were nothing there, there would be nothing to complain about. Look at his uncivil comment following my creating an article for CalgaryNEXT where he writes “As usual, someone else is left to clean up a lazy mess created only as an ego trip” [89]. This was not created as an "ego-trip". It was created because it is a notable subject pursuant to WP:GNG and deserves to have an article. That is but one example of the incivility that I have been forced to accept from Resolute for many years.

Concerning the redirects I have created: The redirects under discussion here were created over the past 5 years by a number of different editors including myself, User:Alaney2k, User:Canuckian89, User:One95, User:Shootmaster 44, User:Uncleben85, and User:USA1168. What was once considered an acceptable and even helpful edit pursuant to WP:RPURPOSE as a ”sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article”, are now vilified as “bad faith” edits. I don't believe any of these redirects were created in bad faith. If there is a new consensus and guideline stating that it is wrong for players to be redirected to a list of players drafted by NHL teams, then I would happily follow it. Dolovis (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Just so you know, stating that you have created 5800 new articles doesn't do much to tamp down on the concerns that you are game-playing everyone by creating nonsense stubs that get deleted and trying to jump back in when someone else eventually does create the page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I was just addressing the issue of “5800 articles” as raised above by Resolute above. These are not “nonsense stubs”. These are deserving articles created pursuant to WP:Stub. Resolute claims that I have had “over 100 articles deleted at AFD alone”, but what he doesn't say is most of those were AfD'd only after the IceHockey Project lowered its WP:NHOCKEY bar and then targeted such articles for deletion (only articles created by me, not the hundreds created by others). He also doesn't say that these articles were brought directly to AfD where they were summarily deleted pursuant to the new standards for inclusion (when a PROD likely would have been more efficient and less time consuming). I do not create article knowing they will be deleted. I create articles so others can build upon them. Dolovis (talk) 22:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

They were AfD'd because they lacked any substantive coverage so as to pass GNG. We raised the bar on that one section of NHOCKEY because you were abusing the hell out of it and trying to use it as a shield to justify creation of articles on non-notable subjects. If you actually looked for sources to ensure a GNG pass before creation - rather than make the rest of us do it for you - the number of games a minor league player had in his career would never have entered the equation. Resolute 23:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Dolovis, not buying it for a second. It is hilarious for you to claim there is no bad faith editing in your history given you have two active edit restrictions already, one for bad faith editing in the realm of diacritics, and the other for bad faith use of sockpuppets.

You claiming now that you will suddenly follow any "new consensus" about not redirecting to draft articles now is curious given I hauled you to RFD FIVE TIMES in the last 18 months or so with such redirects deleted every single time, only to have you come back with yet another run of such creations afterward. This promise today is only being made because you are staring down a page creation ban, not because you respect a consensus that has existed for a long time.

You have failed to address your cut and paste copyvios. You have failed to address your history of misrepresenting sources. You have failed to address the problem of you creating articles on subjects you know are not notable so you can have history restored later via REFUND. You have failed to address the fact that you will always do the absolute minimum per NHOCKEY - and in most cases, how you never even make the barest effort to look for sources beyond a website that is nothing but a stats page. I haven't mentioned it yet in this complaint, but in the cases where more stringent criteria has forced you to put bare effort in, I would also like you to address your habit of using blogs and other unreliable sources, WP:ROUTINE sources and sources with obviously trivial mentions while making little to no effort to find substantive coverage. This goes well beyond your habit of creating one or two sentence sub-stubs that are of no value, virtually never even bothering to look for sources that cover players in non-trivial, substantive fashion that WP:GNG requires. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you started here and offered to work with you. And even though you were creating conflicts with others right out of the gate, I still tried to offer constructive advice - the very same advice you are being given four and a half years later and still ignoring four and a half years later. If my attitude towards you is negative today, it is because I have five years of bad faith actions to judge you by. In the end, the ultimate question is still to ask why the community should be forced to spend so much time cleaning up after you. Don't you think five years of having to fix the messes you create is more than enough? Resolute 22:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Resolute's argument is false deductive reasoning. He argues that because he has taken my edits to RfD, therefore I have made disruptive edits. Again, what Resolute fails to mention is that out of the hundreds of existing redirect edits, he targeted only my edits for deletion - even going so far as to apologize to another editor[90] who he inadvertently RfD'd with my edits. If there are any copyvios, they would inadvertent and minor, and should properly be be addressed through copy editing or appropriate attribution. Clearly, his RfD campaign is a personal vendetta against me and not against my editing, which falls within the standards of what other editors are doing. Dolovis (talk) 00:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

No, I apologized for Alaney for failing to notify him that one of his redirects was taken to RFD. My error there was simply assuming that they were all yours. As to the rest, you're just lashing out in desperation - much like you did the last time you were hauled to SPI and tried to accuse me of using a sockpuppet that voted against myself in deletion discussions to try and distract the discussion. I will once again note that you have failed to address any of the points I raised above, and you failed to answer the questions at the end. So I once again ask: how long should we be expected to fix the messes you leave behind? Resolute 01:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Dolovis, can we resolve the current issue here now? Would you be willing to agree to even a temporary ban on creating articles and redirects? Resolute's argument is that he has taken your edits to RFD which has deleted the redirects in the hundreds, you have an incorrect version of policy. The point is that the redirects and articles you created before (even years before) have been brought to RFD and a number have been deleted. My proposal is simply that you get an admin to approve of it which isn't a terrible chore if you've completed a decent drafts. If the issues with hockey redirects have resolved with your acknowledgment of the current policies, then I see zero issues at all here with my proposal. Else, you currently came back from an block for sockpuppetry, with an edit restriction, which I see that you're currently arguing to remove already and for which the few ARBCOM members who allowed you to return have said you either need to follow or you can retract the agreement and go back to the ban. So if you want people to think that you've seriously reformed, it would be a good idea for you to pre-emptively agree to resolving the problems that got you in trouble before. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

That is a rather gross oversimplification of my argument, actually. His redirects are only one part of the overall problem which, in short, is to do as little work as possible while trying to gain a "high score" for article creation, and leaving behind a morass of sloppy work that achieves so little value that it cannot hope to make up for the time spent cleaning up after him in multiple venues. Resolute 01:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The only person who appears to be concerned with my edit count is Resolute, and I will be happy to remove the “Userboxes” from my user page if they are annoying to Resolute or any other editors. Until now, my understanding was that editors should be aware of WP:REDDEAL when creating redirects, and that RDs to draft lists were otherwise acceptable for nn players. But if this is no longer the consensus, then I will refrain from redirects to NHL draft lists, and even help to start tagging other such redirects for deletion.

As for article creation, I have long since demonstrated the ability to create sourced articles on notable topics (which is the benchmark for article creation). Viewing my edit history will confirm this. If there are exceptions, then please PROD them or otherwise bring them to my attention so the shortcomings can be addressed. Expecting me, or any editor, to create WP:Good articles on the first draft is not reasonable. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. As discussed at WP:Article development, creating sourced Stub articles is an encouraged activity. If the notability of a subject is disputed, then it should be properly PRODed, or otherwise dealt with pursuant to Wikipedia:Deletion policy. Requiring Admins to move my drafts to main space will just create extra work for everyone. Dolovis (talk) 02:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

That is all pure BS. You know damn well that his argument isn't about the edit count on your page. It is the actions you are taking to boost it that are the issue. Creating articles that you know don't meet the notability requirement. That you have been told time and again don't meet the notability requirement. That are sourced to stat pages and blogs, which don't meet WP:GNG. All of this has been pointed out to you by a number of editors, your standard response to most people when they point it out is "Its not my job, its up to other people to come along and do it later". Except that it is your job, if you are creating an article you are expected to source it with reliable sources and to make sure they meet the WP:GNG. You have not demonstrated the ability to create sourced stub articles, a quick look through your created pages show that the vast majority are sourced to non-reliable sources. Then when the articles are inevitably deleted for non-notability you wait until you can ask at refund to restore your edit history once the person meets notability. I have even seen cases where you copy and pasted the content of deleted at afd articles (created by other people) where you then pasted the exact copy a month or two later as a "new creation". -DJSasso (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Resolute, I agree that it's a simplification of the concerns but given that ARBCOM very recently unblocked Dolovis and the little evidence that the actions are ongoing now, you'll be unlikely to find any admin will to block on that basis so I'm focusing on a resolution as to what can be shown now. Otherwise, Dolovis doesn't believe it's a problem at all. Just want everyone to be clear. We'll see from others but I still support the proposal as it provides the least amount of disruption to the project overall in exchange for resolving the largest number of concerns at the moment. And Dolovis, are you actually checking these sources in your hurry to create these articles? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Very easy to see it going on right now. Here is one he created within the last month. Only added to it (weeks later) when notified of a prod. [91]. Resolute also showed current examples of his lack of attribution on copy pastes which are current copyvio issues. You can't just focus on the here and now, because that is what the problem has been, here and now we issue a new minor restriction of some sort and he goes on and finds a way to circumvent it or some other policy to flaunt. Perhaps its at the point where it needs to go to Arbcom for a full case. -DJSasso (talk) 02:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree but it's not totally objectionable for people to create basic stubs and to pull the information from cross-wiki. ARBCOM is really the place for that kind of thing not ANI. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• No pulling cross-wiki is fine. But his creation of the article consisted solely of "Marek Sikora is a Polish astronomer." with the only reference being his staff profile. Fine if that is the first edit in a series of edits. But he didn't go back to it until weeks later and it was about to be deleted. Either way I was just using that particular one as an example of its on-going nature. -DJSasso (talk) 03:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Marek Sikora (astronomer) was a listed as a hat note on the Marek Sikora article. Given that he appeared to be notable per WP:NACADEMICS, and had a Polish Wiki article, I chose to create the article rather than just wash the hat note (as I first thought to do). I agree it was a very weak start, and I have since expanded the article with text translated from the corresponding article in Polish. It is currently facing a PROD, and will be deleted unless another editor takes an interest in keeping it. Dolovis (talk) 03:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah so that's basically you guessing that there's enough notability, copying the Polish wiki text (without you independently verifying if it's true at all) and then leaving the really hard work for others, which is why I support the temporary six month topic ban from creating new articles at the moment. Do something else rather than create new stubs as it does sound disruptive. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Exactly, and that therein is the problem. Guessing at notability without going to the effort of actually providing the sources necessary to prove it. Wasting other editors time who have to prod it, then admins who have to do their own research to see if it is notable and then them deleting it. Even worse if it ends up at Afd where then multiple editors have to do that. If you can't source it to reliable sources then you shouldn't be creating it, if you don't know its notable then you definitely shouldn't be creating it. -DJSasso (talk)

• @Ricky81682:. I'm not asking for a block - though I believe Ravenswing did. I am asking for an end to the time wasting caused by his mass creation of negative value pages. Due to his history, we already have to routinely check for both the existence of sources to meet a GNG pass, and to check that he isn't misrepresenting the paltry sources he does use. And now, given his cavalier response to the copyvio issue, we will have to check for that as well. And this rabbit hole still goes deeper than I have presented here. He routinely creates WP:CRYSTAL articles on potential draft picks a month or two before each year's NHL Entry Draft even though most of those players are not yet notable. For me, that is one instance where I just don't bother because I hate wasting the time of admins and editors at PROD and AFD when some of those articles would just be re-created a month later when notability IS achieved, but it is just another example of Dolovis looking for page creation high scores. In my view, the solution here is an indef ban from creating pages, to be lifted only when he demonstrates - via expanding a good number of his past creations - his willingness to (1) look for and accurately use sources that meet GNG before creation - meaning no more one-reference substubs relying exclusively on a stat sheet or blog ans (2) stop gaming the system via deliberate creation of bad redirects and of topics he knows aren't notable. Ravenswing, DJSasso and myself have been trying for years to hammer home the fact that GNG means non-trivial, substantive coverage in multiple reliable sources. Perhaps once he demonstrates that he will no longer ignore that via expansion and referencing of his past articles, and perhaps once he commits to follow that process going forward, such a ban could be lifted. Resolute 13:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support a six-month topic ban of Dolovis creating articles or redirects (uninvolved non admin) This is insane. It creates tons of work for others. Its inconsiderate and is simply gaming the system. I would also Support an indef ban on history merge requests of deleted pages more than a month old to stop the disruption in the future. AlbinoFerret 03:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Pursuant to WP:Notability a topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets either the GNG or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline (i.e WP:NHOCKEY or WP:ACADEMIC). Once created, an article may still face deletion pursuant to the deletion policy. This is how Wikipedia works. The Marek Sikora article is the exception to the majority of the work I do on Wikipedia. That article was well-intentioned, and I did verify the sources used in the Polish article, and I still believe he is notable. I fully intended to go back to build the article, which I have done. I believe that my good work far outweighs the weak, and in the interest of resolving this issue I will make a proposition; I will take a voluntary one month break from creating articles, with the hope that Resolute and DJSasso will stop their uncivil comments and harassment towards me. I am a good faith editor who is doing my best to build and improve Wikipedia. Dolovis (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You need more than a month off for those games. Your denail of a problem and trying to lessen the ban time is just IDHT. I think anyone who reads this section will support the bans. You are making work for editors and disrupting the project. AlbinoFerret 04:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

So, Dolovis -- you are admitting to doing nothing wrong, and you make no stipulations that you won't start the same behavior all over again 32 days from now ... nor does anything enjoin you from doing so 32 hours from now. What leads you to believe this would be an attractive offer? Ravenswing 06:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Per AlbinoFerret, I likewise support an indef ban from the WP:REFUND process. For anyone following this discussion seeking evidence concerning Dolovis' motives, he doesn't have merely several dozen requests at WP:REFUND, he's featured in several dozen archives. [92] I am very hard put to find an unselfish reason for such Wikilawyering, nor one justifying the time and energy spent by those active in that area to go through his requests. Ravenswing 06:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Isn't that a possible contribution history problem? I mean, that's assuming there is actually is a connected history, a refund request would have to required. Isn't the issue that WP:REFUND policy be so liberal (just any request) rather than asking if the request is actually related on a separate editor from the current history which is a different problem? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

If it was a article that had some long term editing that was recreated maybe. But whats being merged is redirects and tiny subs. It takes away the incentive to create them in the first place. To make sure that he is creating articles likely to survive an afd. If it looks like a problem the exception can be added that he ask an admin and point to this section as the reason for asking and an admin can decide if its a real article or just more "Im first" games before asking for a merge. AlbinoFerret 07:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support temporary article creation ban, also endorse indef REFUND ban. It looks like Dolovis has a long history of creating articles that have some serious issues with notability, so I think that a temporary ban from creating any new articles in any space (draft, mainspace, redirects, etc) is reasonable. Dolovis, I see you trying to justify your article creation but at no point do I actually see you really owning up to the fact that you've made several articles that had a lot of major issues with them. I feel that giving you a temporary ban will give you the incentive to go over policy and learn how to properly source articles for notability giving purposes. I'll be extremely blunt with this: this has been a long running problem and if things don't change after the temporary ban, you'll likely be facing a permanent ban from creating new articles - if not from editing altogether. I also endorse a permanent ban from requesting article history from REFUND, as I do think that the others make a good case showing that you're really only requesting the article history so you can have the article creation credit - not so you can improve the article. The thing is, numbers mean absolutely squat on Wikipedia. You can make a lot of pages but that doesn't necessarily make you a good editor or even really an asset to Wikipedia if the article quality is poor and others have to run behind you in a struggle to prove notability or delete the articles. Case in point: I remember a user named User:MoonMetropolis that created multiple pages that had serious notability issues. While they were ultimately blocked for sockpuppetry, their poor article creation history definitely gave people another reason to indef them. This is not your first time at ANI, as you've been reported multiple times in the past - and you've already been banned from moving pages. Heck in in 2013 you tried to ask for a topic ban to be removed but everyone successfully argued against giving you these permissions back. You really need to shape up because right now all you're doing is giving yourself enough WP:ROPE to justify someone arguing for you to be indefinitely blocked from editing. To be honest, I'm actually mildly surprised that they aren't asking for an indefinite ban, considering that you've repeatedly been reported at ANI and other boards since you signed up. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'd actually endorse a longer article creation ban than six months. I'd actually endorse a year, followed by a year's probation where he's only able to create articles via AfC. Considering that this has been an ongoing problem for years now, I'd actually also support an indef ban on mainspace creation and then after a year, he can create articles via AfC. As far as REFUND goes, that's still an indef since it looks like he's only doing this to grandstand, not to actually improve the article - a process that I think could really, really be disheartening to the people who took the time to create a newer version of the article that did pass notability guidelines. If someone other than him requests restoration then that's fine, but I don't think that Dolovis should be allowed to request article restorations any longer. But yeah... the more I think about this the more I support an indef on mainspace creation until he can prove via AfC that he can make a quality article. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Well a new indefinite ban is unlikely since ARBCOM just unblocked Dolovis back in June. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• It looks like he was unblocked from an indefinite block, but I don't think that this would prevent us from giving him an indefinite block from creating articles in the mainspace. From just what I've seen here, it looks like there's plenty reason to justify restricting Dolovis to AfC for the time being (after the year's block is up), until he proves that he can responsibly create articles. The way he's going, if he keeps getting reported at ANI like this then I'd like to think that ARBCOM would likely approve a new block. (BTW, do they need to approve any future blocks on this user? I always got the impression that if the user kept causing trouble and refused to play nice, they could always be re-blocked.) But seriously though, we've restricted other editors to AfC for far less than this and I think that an AfC restriction and a block from REFUND is a reasonable outcome here. He's abused the system and now we need to make sure that he can edit responsibly before giving him the keys to the car/mainspace. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 13:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Tokyogirl79 Keeping in mind that a previous editor we referred over to AfC for remedial page creation scrutiny eventually gave up the topic space that they were precieved to be disruptive in and give up new article creation entirely because AfC didn't review the submissions fast enough for their taste. Hasteur (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• I'm aware that this might be a problem, but I'm not sure what else will really be beneficial overall. I think that they need to have their work scrutinized before it goes into the mainspace and a temporary ban from mainspace article creation might not solve the issue. I think that turning him to AfC is probably one of the best case scenarios here. On a side note, if he wanted to ask for people to review his submissions (and anyone would be willing to volunteer for that), I have no problem with him asking qualified editors to review his work after he completes an AfC article. The way he's going, I think that a little one on one will likely be quite helpful. I'm willing to volunteer to shoulder part of this load, if he's limited to AfC only for the time being. I'm just worried that if he's allowed back into the mainspace he might do this without actually having learned anything, given that he doesn't seem to really understand why people find his editing habits problematic and even in violation of part of the spirit of Wikipedia. (IE, the landgrab nature that you referred to below, since Dolovis seems to feel that there's a contest for who gets the most entries created.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Note to Delovis: Basically while I know that you're trying to say that you're operating in good faith, if a large amount of people believe that you're doing this for your own personal glory, then that should be a sign that you should stop, pause, and look to check to see if maybe you're doing something wrong. You've been on ANI a lot for various things, all of which tend to center around the same things: creating poor articles and potentially unnecessary redirects and the general consensus seems to be shifting to the idea that you're creating these because you want your article creation numbers to shoot up, not because you're here to edit in a beneficial manner. At some point you really just need to take a look at your editing pattern and ask yourself "maybe it's not them - maybe it's actually me?" Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'd support your version willingly, Tokyogirl79. And as Ricky81682 suggests, the art of the possible is what's in play. Ravenswing 10:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Support If we're going to be shunting this editor over to AfC, we probably should make sure they're aware of the influx they're about to get. Also I'd like to see some way of allowing editors reviewing this to have a pre-approved "This submission is not qualified for inclusion" deletion process to deal with these in a more rapid timeframe than CSD:G13 (6 months unedited) or many WP:MFD nominations. If we're going to put pressure on the editor to change their behavior with respect to these creations, we need to not allow the editor to keep the crystal ball collection and then make the land grab of "created the article" once someone else did the work of properly creating the article. Hasteur (talk) 13:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

AFC allows pretty much any autoconfirmed user to move articles and numerous articles have been accepted with very questionable results. As such, I propose that Dolovis be restricted to six months unless an admin approves of any drafts in the user's draftspace. It's a higher restriction and a greater burden but it then creates a single point of accountability after the fact. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• It is unfair and punitive to ban me from using WP:REFUND when I was only following the lead of Admin Djsasso who demonstrated to me that such was the encouraged practice when he undeleted the histories of several recreated articles including Anthony Nigro (he now argues such practice is gaming the system). I have never been warned against using WP:REFUND to restore edit histories, and in fact I was under the impression that it should be done for proper attribution. Dolovis (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Restoring an edit history, and creating articles you know will be deleted only to just so you can have the history undeleted to claim the first edit are two very different things. If nothing on the page is from the old version of the page then there is no attribution necessary as I am sure you know. If you are not copying anything why would you need to attribute to authors who didn't contribute to that version of the article. -DJSasso (talk) 16:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Beyond that, Dolovis, I'll bite: why would you care? What is the benefit, to the encyclopedia, for one name over another to be cited as creator of an article? Our interest should be in complete articles, not in the original one- or two-sentence sub-stub that might have been there in the beginning, right? We're not in this for the glory, after all. Just out of curiosity, how many times have you sought to restore an article history that wouldn't wind up having your name listed as the first edit?

  That being said, "unfair?" It is not "unfair" for us to check your abuse of a process. No one gets gets a free pass to abuse a process just because someone else suggested it to us, in good faith, and expecting us to employ it in good faith. Ravenswing 06:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• It matters because there's a userbox on Dolovis' page to Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by article count (and as a "tool"). Currently at 111 although the userbox claims to be 43rd. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose a ban on creation of new articles, based on my random look at five creations: 1. Stig-Göran Johansson is a Swedish hockey player in the national hall of fame [93]. Nice find. 2. Sergei Yemelin is a young fully professional Russian hockey player. That's an auto-keep at AfD, no problems. Single sourced but there are two links that could have been made into sources as easily. 3. Dallas W. Anderson is a medical devices entrepreneur. The piece has a bit of the gross paid editing smell and would be less than 50-50 at AfD, in my estimation. 4. Mikael Saha is a fully professional Finnish hockey player. Another auto-keep at AfD. 5. Lukáš Jašek is a fully professional Czech hockey player. It was created without diacritical marks, and I suppose therein lies the rub with some people.. Still, this looks like a legitimate content person who is helping Wikipedia and I see no issues either with the creations or the sourcing, at a glance. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• His mass creation of two sentence sub-stubs of European elite players is annoying, but ultimately not at the root of my complaint. Also, given he has created thousands of these two sentence sub stubs, the odds of you finding many of them at random are high. To give you a good idea of my complaints, and perhaps the scope of what you need to look for should your offer to mentor come to be, I would point you to his most recent creations:

1. Santeri Vuoti - Source does not explicitly support the statement it references. Probably would be WP:ROUTINE anyway. (Player is barely presumed notable for having played 15 Liiga games last year, however. No indication a search was done for substantive coverage in reliable third party sources though).
2. Vladimir Eminger - Source is basically the hockey team's main page. In short, source does not support the statement it references.
3. Quebec NHL team - Plagiarism, internal copyvio, crystal balling. Blatant attempt to score first edit on a proposed hockey team that does not exist.
4. Las Vegas NHL team - Plagiarism, internal copyvio, crystal balling. Blatant attempt to score first edit on a proposed hockey team that does not exist.
5. Chris Durand (ice hockey) - WP:XY-violating redirect of a non-notable player, created to get a first edit, and despite having links of this exact type deleted multiple times at RFD. This is routine.
6. Pier-Olivier Pelletier - Same as above; 100 more at RFD now, and I'll be nominating 33 more later today (Mostly, but not entirely, created by Dolovis)
7. NHL coach of the year and NHL Coach of the Year - not a great concern as they are marginally plausible search terms. He may not be aware that the search engine ignores capitalization, so didn't realize he didn't need to create both.
8. 2017 Stanley Cup playoffs - Unnecessary redirect created massively prematurely and only to score a first edit. This is routine.
9. Self-portrait without beard - WP:SYNTH as he clearly has not read or used the sources, and only copied from another article while rewording statements from that one.
10. Flower Beds in Holland - Standard redirect to an alternative title. No issues there.

• Going a little farther back, we have the one-sentence, CSD A1 eligible creation of the astronomer that he was shamed into expanding via a PROD tag. Without people there to PROD him into putting bare effort into things, he does things like this, where he simply throws an {{Update}} tag on one of his own articles because he can hardly be bothered to update his thousands of creations himself. And given he creates articles on not-yet-notable players (like Pavel Karnaukhov) and then fails to defend them at PROD because he knows he can just abuse WP:REFUND later, I would say that bans from various processes, including and especially REFUND and redirect creation, are strictly necessary. But as demonstrated above, even when he creates articles on players that strictly pass SNGs, he misrepresents sources and makes no effort to find substantive coverage. That is something I would like to see him demonstrate he is capable of without being watched before I would back down from requesting a page creation ban entirely. Resolute 16:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Not wanting to spend my whole day on this, #2 above (a clear SNG Keep) could have the fact of first season documented from one of the external links showing just as easily. #3 above (and presumably #4) could be de-crystal-balled with a retitling to 2015 Quebec City NHL bid, which would be a GNG pass. Agreed that the "2017 Stanley Cup playoffs" is massively premature, but all this all smacks of gross exaggeration of the actual problem presented by what seems to be a good-faith editor... Carrite (talk) 17:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Passing a SNG does not automatically mean a keep. If they fail to prove the notability when challenged (and a player that close to the bare minimum likely would be) they still can end up getting deleted. It specifically lays this out in the SNG. Not to mention the external links to stats pages are not reliable sources to proove notability. But as Resolute points out he creates thousands of articles so its not surprise you would find some two sentence ones, no one is claiming every single article is bad, just that a significant percentage to the point of being disruptive are. -DJSasso (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd be entertained if you could show me a couple times when a bio of a hockey player in a fully professional league has ended in deletion at AfD. It simply does not happen. If he was doing stubs of professional croquet players, those might be close. But hockey? Uh, no. Carrite (talk) 22:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Sure I will look some up. Dolovis, himself has had a number deleted. Non-North American professionals are very frequently deleted due to the varying coverage of fully professional players in different countries. -DJSasso (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I respect that you wish to AGF, Carrite, but I've been seeing these for years. These mistakes are not new, and they are not going away because Dolovis does not care. He is not here to improve the project, he is here to get his high scores and leave the clean-up to others. And that has been his MO for the entire time he's been a Wikipedian. And for the entire time he's been a Wikipedian, the only times his behaviour has been altered is through either community imposed restrictions, or a block for sockpuppetry. Six separate RFDs were not enough to cause Dolovis to stop creating bad redirects. It was only after this report and the risk of shutting his game down entirely became apparent to him that he suddenly decided that he would honour "a new consensus" - which is actually a year and a half old, at least. Ravenswing, DJSasso and I have been dealing with the mess he makes for years, and we'll all tell you the same thing: He will abuse any process he can as far as he can abuse it. And I think Arbcom recognizes this as well, given his attempt to have one of his restrictions lifted ended with a blunt "you can be restricted, or you can be blocked" response. To respond to your comments above: #1 and #2 above could be fixed by finding non-trivial sources that properly cite his claims and then properly inserting those sources, but he won't do that. #3 and #4, could have just waited until teams were actually announced - but that risks his not getting the first edit (and the expansion bid stuff is already covered at Potential National Hockey League expansion). They are also plagiarism. And his massively premature examples are ongoing and annual. It's all about getting first edits. Always has been. Resolute 19:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support ban on article creation, unless pre-vetted for notability as Carrite has helpfully offered below. From working at WP:REFUND, I am aware of much time wasted on the following often-repeated cycle: (1) Dolovis creates an article about a hockey-player, (2) it is discussed at AfD and deleted as non-notable, (3) months or years later the player becomes notable and an article is created, (4) Dolovis comes to REFUND to ask for his deleted edits to be restored to the history beneath the new article. Steps 1,2 and 4 of this cycle are pure waste motion and do nothing for the encyclopedia. Examples here (3 instances) and here (another 4) on just one archive page. JohnCD (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I've been through the ropes at AfD and if it is judged that Dolovis needs a pre-check on notability of new creations from a mentor before being able to launch them, I hereby offer to serve that role for a six month period. I will report back at the end of that period with the results. Ping me if you wish to go this route. Carrite (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Quick reference to the Special Notability Guideline for hockey might be of use for this debate:

Ice hockey players are presumed notable if they
[1] Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league;
[2] Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant;
[3] Played at least 200 games (90 games for a goaltender) or achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star) in top-level minor leagues or second tier national leagues;
[4] Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star, All-American) in a lower minor league, in a major junior league, or in a major collegiate hockey league (Note: merely playing in a major junior league or major collegiate hockey is not enough to satisfy inclusion requirements);
[5] Were a first-round draft pick in the NHL Entry Draft;
[6] Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship); or

[7] Are an honored member of a national or multinational hockey Hall of Fame.

A large percentage of the recent work by this editor has involved the creation of stub bios of young professional players and prospects. There seems to me to be good faith, given how low the SNG bar is set (just one game played in a fully pro league is a Speedy Keep at AfD). Carrite (talk) 00:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how SNGs work. They do not cause a "Speedy Keep". It lays out right at the top of them that meeting these does not mean an article must be kept. Not to mention these particular ones don't mention "fully pro" as a number of fully pro leagues do not meet them as explained in the note below the list which you didn't copy over. Some fully pro leagues require 200 games, other fully pro leagues require a first-all star award win etc. -DJSasso (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

User:The Spartan 003... again.

After receiving a 24 hour ban a month ago for OR and altering sourced content, he's returned to doing the latter. Actually, he returned to doing that about two weeks ago (see [94]), and I warned him about that (see [95]).

Now, the following edits ([96], [97], [98]) are another instance of altering sourced content. Fortunately, I have that book, and I can confirm that what he added is not what the source says. Peter238 (talk) 04:28, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

There is also this edit, where his edit summary clearly indicates OR. --JorisvS (talk) 09:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd say it's more of a ref falsification than OR. That vowel is quite noticeably fronted, at least according to the vowel chart in Jassem (2003). Peter238 (talk) 09:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, both then, basically. From the edit summary it sounds like the listened to the audio file and concluded that he didn't really hear it. Inappropriate anyway. --JorisvS (talk) 10:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Yep. My question is: is anyone going to do something about that? I don't think it's a complicated issue. Peter238 (talk) 15:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

New User:Mike.James 11

Mike.James 11 (talk · contribs) - This editor has a beef about the definition used by ONS in the UK for the Birkenhead urban area - see that article and List of urban areas in the United Kingdom. Warnings have had no effect, other than seeming to escalate his disgruntlement, now to section blanking. Some more pairs of eyes, and more words to the new editor, would be helpful. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

User:‎YuuOtosaka

There is currently an ongoing dispute between me and ‎YuuOtosaka (talk · contribs) over the choice of infobox image on Charlotte (anime). I say dispute, but so far, despite me trying to reach out to the editor on their talk page, the editor has continued to ignore me. The issue stems from YuuOtosaka changing the infobox image from File:Charlotte anime.jpg to File:Charlotte anime 2.jpg. On their talk page, I have tried to explain why I believe the former image should be kept to better represent the series, but the user has not responded, and has continued to change the image even after I tried to reach out to them regarding the issue.--十八 12:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Update: YuuOtosaka changed it back to the former image after I opened this thread.--十八 12:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(non admin observation) I looked at the page history, it doesnt appear to be edit warring. It appears to be a content dispute. This is a page for behaviour problems that go against policy and guidelines. If I am missing something please point out what policy or guideline this breaks. AlbinoFerret 17:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Beukford

Beukford (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is trying to include contentious WP:BLP material in Ali Khamenei. The consensus on the talk page[99] prior to their arrival was that the source was not reliable enough. Despite being informed that both the burden to demonstrate reliability of the source and the the onus to achieve consensus for including the material, they flaunted both as well as the talk page consensus and reverted multiple times to re-insert the disputed material[100][101][102]. They will continue doing so until an admin intervenes.--Anders Feder (talk) 13:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• There was no such "consensus", only you objected the cited content, which was in the article long time ago. And several reliable newspapers reported it, including Globalnews from Canada, The Slatest, CNN and Jerusalem Post (not to mention it was published by Khamenei himself in his twitter account). It's not a BLP violation. Just a pertinent and related comment about Israel reported by several reliable sources in an impeccable place.--Beukford (talk) 13:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• As predicted, the user has now reverted another editor too over the same material[103].--Anders Feder (talk) 14:02, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I went to https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir which also contains tweets that aren't in English, scrolled down, hit auto translate and am pasting results below.

Extended content

Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Aug 1Infanticide is the policy of savage and wolfish Israeli regime. 7/23/14#AliDawabshe #WasBurnedAlive Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Jul 20#Israel's security will not be ensured whether there will be an #IranDeal or not. 11/27/2014https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4lPGXmXb3c …#Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Jul 17‘Down to US,’ ‘Down to Israel’ slogans changed country’s atmosphere and it was not only in Tehran or big cities. Khamenei.ir retweeted Ayatolá Jamenei ‏@Khamenei_es Jul 9 ~#AlgoQueNecesitoYaEs :#Libertad dlos territorios palestinos ocupados por el #Israel. #DíaMundialdeAlQuds,#Palestina Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir May 16The cause of insecurity& massacre in #Yemen are some so-called Islamic countries which are actually deceived by US&Israel.#YemenUnderAttack Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir May 13Terrorist groups in #Syria under various names work to the benefit of #Israel& those who seek instability in region to impose their own will Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir May 6In the world of deception, the most racist govts become flag-bearers of human rights#US #Israel #BlackLivesMatterhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PPeQP-bY38&list=PLP9XKFcmDYv4hmgwVEXplXrfnVeZQk-St&index=1 … Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Apr 21If Israel can achieve victory in Gaza,Saudis too will achieve victory in #Yemen.Their noses will be rubbed in dirt over Yemen.4/9/15#REVIEW Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Apr 21Saudis established a bad tradition in region;they made a mistake.What Saudis did in #Yemen is exactly what Israel did to #Palestine.#REVIEW Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Apr 9Israel’s military is bigger than Saudi’s& #Gaza is a small area,but they failed;#Yemen is a vast country w a population of tens of millions. Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Apr 9What Saudis did in #Yemen is exactly what Israel did to #Palestine.Acting agnst Yemenis is a genocide that can be prosecuted in int’l courts Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 17Once people in the West realize … #RachelCorrie #KillerIsrael Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 3US is now facing a #dilemma. It should either stop unlimited services to #Israel or they’ll lose more face in the world.10/1/11 Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 3We can't overlook #Israel's crimes agnst Palestinians;we can't remain silent towards Israel's role in regional unrest. #IsraeliApartheidWeek Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 3US officials are obliged to show consideration for #Israel & cover up its #crimes. Zionists corporations' money & power have troubled them. Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 3For +50yrs, Israel’s tried to destroy Palestinian nation w US supports but Palestinians disgraced Israel w bare hands. #BeliefInGod10/14/00 Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 3All what US has paid to protect #Israel faced a big obstacle:#Palestine has won the hearts of justice-seekers of world.#IsraeliApartheidWeek Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 3In the past 50 yrs, how much money and #reputation has it cost US to support #Israel’s crimes? Who other than its nation has paid for it? Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 2Increasing global hatred of #Israel is a sign of divine help. Today Israel is more isolated&its supporters are more embattled#ShutDownAIPAC Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Mar 2Zionists’ hegemony over US officials is such that these poor ppl have to show consideration for #Israel& cover up its crimes. #ShutDownAIPAC Khamenei.ir ‏@khamenei_ir Feb 23+50M US blacks are deprived of human rights b/c their national interests are spent on covering the costs of #Israel's crimes.5/6/92#MalcomX

While I sympathise with views such as Israel should withdraw from settlements and the West Bank inc. East Jerusalem and perhaps further territories that it has taken - the above content seems pretty venemous to me. I see no reason to doubt the JP content which is inclusive of a screen shot of at least one tweet. If the jpost had falsified the story then it would be big news.

I also scrolled through the twitter feed in hope of find content such as of an incitement to love but saw nothing. GregKaye 15:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: Anyone can access the Twitter account and analyze it for themselves. That is not the point. What gives you reason to believe that it is even Khamenei's account? What gives you reason to believe a source like JPost, which have previously has propagated such ridiculous "stories" as the Norwegian Finance Minister having shouted "Death to the Jews" in a demonstration[104], would have bothered fact-checking such a critical point? In any case, this is not the place where the source should be discussed. The user could easily have respected WP:BURDEN and WP:ONUS and talk page consensus and gone through normal processes like WP:RSN or WP:RFC if he disagree. Instead he is engaged in edit warring. If your attempts to defend such behavior is considered good practice, it isn't surprising so many editors have quit Wikipedia.--Anders Feder (talk) 15:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Re: "What gives you reason to believe that it is even Khamenei's account?" It seems i had no basis other than my own gullibility. Apologies. Have you asked similar of User:Beukford and, if so, where? GregKaye 16:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I have not engaged in any analysis of the account, no. I have requested any evidence that the source is reliable.--Anders Feder (talk) 17:03, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

For interested editors, I've done a bit of research regarding the extent of usage of quotes from the account in reliable sources and added it to Talk:Ali Khamenei GregKaye 18:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• And again, as predicted, the user has now reverted a third user over the same material.[105]--Anders Feder (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Ankhsoprah2 engaging in WP:HOLYWAR and accusing Beukford of being a "Jewish POV pusher"

Ankhsoprah2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) reverted Beukford while refering to him as a "Jewish POV pusher." On the talk page in response to a Shia editor he comments "Shias are always looking for excuses to eat porks, what's the big deal? lol. As long as sanction are in place, they have a great excuse... Maybe that's why Khamenei is against Iran Deal?" Can someone please permablock this fellow?Brustopher (talk) 22:04, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

For completeness, link to 3RR discussion against the same user yesterday.--Anders Feder (talk) 22:34, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• I've blocked Ankhsoprah2. As to the edits, I've responded on the talk page and tried my hand at a re-write. Just repeating tweets without a real context (or point) just made Ali_Khamenei#Zionism_and_Israel a random set of insulting tweets and comments. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• With Ankhsoprah2, the question was really when this was going to happen. As for Beukford, they are clearly edit warring. They're also, of course, a brand-new account with a distinct POV, walking into a hot-button issue with guns blazing and a pretty decent knowledge of how Wikipedia works. In other words, I have no doubt that this is a returning editor, and I will block the account accordingly. Drmies (talk) 00:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Between the two blocks, a modicum of order should have been restored. Thanks.--Anders Feder (talk) 00:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Ankhsoprah2 has apologized and I have unblocked the user. I assume the situation has calmed down nevertheless. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Question His history of reilgious insults and claims of "propaganda" are extensive; [106] calling an editor "a Jewish POV pusher," [107] "illegitimate Israel #1 terrorist" on an editors talk page, [108] addressed to a Shia editor - "Shias are always looking for a reason to eat pork," claims an editor is part of "Jewish Propaganda" [109], and these are just a few from the past few days alone. Given this, should the block be reinstated.? Thank you. Ism schism (talk) 13:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

You already got the answer from the admin who blocked me and then unblocked me,[110] why post it here again? BTW, after posting the question here, you reverted this edit of mine, stating in the edit summary that my edit was POV. Actually, you readded unsourced POV that is not related to the biography.--Ankhsoprah2 (talk) 01:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Although I'm extremely shamed of my actions, & I promise not to act that way again. I would like to point out a few things: the Shia editor, with whom I had a lighthearted exchange, actually misunderstood me as a sectarian editor and attacked me first, which another editor redacted [111]. Although I didn't mind, and didn't even think of it as an attack. Although, it was lighthearted, we ended with agreement that sectarianism is ignorant[112]. With User:Iran nuclear weapons 2, he was claiming that Iran has most record of assasination and would assasinate him for editing Wikipedia![113]. I again apologize for my actions, and promise that I will not repeat them. Thank you and best regards to all.--Ankhsoprah2 (talk) 02:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Feuding between two COI editors

• Grump International (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• BC1278 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Over at WP:COIN#Brickell_Flatiron, we have a dispute between two editors. BC1278 has an acknowledged conflict of interest regarding some Internet companies in Israel. Grump International denies a conflict of interest, but is involved mostly with articles about certain condo developments currently for sale, primarily Brickell Flatiron (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and 520 West 28th (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and bio articles about their architects. (Yes, this was the "integration of volumes that flow into each other, following a coherent formal language" ad, although that language has been removed.)

BC1278 has been toning down or proposing deletion of some of the Grump International articles, while Grump International has been proposing deletion of some articles created by BC1278. (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronen Shilo) The latter is probably retaliatory; the articles involved are old. There's some incivility [114][115] bordering on harassment.

Grump International, while denying COI, is very insistent about the notability of the buildings in which he is interested, and their architects. Other than a few unrelated issues, that account is more or less an SPA. However, he makes a good case for notability. The buildings involved are very expensive (condos from $2 million to $20 million per unit), designed by famous architects, and have received press coverage due to extensive PR. On the other hand, they're not finished and occupied, and they don't really need to be in Wikipedia this early. Especially because the developers are trying to sell units before construction to finance the project. I'd be inclined to delete now per WP:CRYSTAL, and let them back into Wikipedia if and when they're built. Brickell Flatiron hasn't even broken ground yet. Wikipedia is being used here to sell real estate.

There may also be sockpuppets of Grump International, but it's hard to tell. Some people are just interested in buildings.

The editor behavior needs to be brought under control, which is AN/I's department. I think we can deal with the content issues at WP:COIN. Grump International needs to stop doing some things. Warn? Block? Topic ban? Up to AN/I. John Nagle (talk) 19:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I have no issue with BC1278, and am willing to withdraw from the situation entirely. I put the article Ronen Shilo up for deletion via AFD, and have been attacked ever since, as it is one of BC1278's paid clients, and put a News Release banner atop the Conduit (company) article after someone else had already put a COI tag atop it. Beyond this initial act, I have been attacked over and over again by BC1278, and simply tried to defend myself, as I actually don't have a conflict of interest. But yes I'm only really interested in architecture. After a significant level of bullying, I made an effort to improve one of the only articles I have created that was PROD'd, after which the editor who PROD'd it did not move to AFD it, which I invited them to if they felt it was a good move. The other article that I added one edit to was PROD'd by the same editor, and then de-PROD'd by the person (who I do not know) who created it. If someone would like to edit any article I have edited, please feel free to do so. I do not WP:OWN them of course. If they should be deleted, please feel free to AFD them. Other than being constantly accused of being a bad person, by someone being paid to edit on behalf of Conduit (company), I haven't had any issue with Wikipedia. If you wish for me to stop engaging with BC1278, I will simply stop responding to him, as I have not once ever begun an engagement with them--I have simply responded to their posts about me. If this is being seen as disruptive, I am absolutely fine with engaging no further with BC1278, his articles, or his postings that repeatedly PING me on my page (I have pinged nobody in my entire interaction with them). I will not even ask for him to stop pinging or posting about me, I have no issue with just withdrawing. I will state outright that I have no confict of interest, and have never edited under any account but this one. Grump International (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I would also point out that the poster of this section is stating that my edits were retaliatory, but if you look at the timeline it was BC1278 that began his tirade against me after I made the posts on the Conduit and Ronen Shilo pages--I did not do this in response to anything that BC1278 did. BC1278 started going after me once I made the edits to pages that, unbeknownst to me, he is paid to maintain. I added the two edits on these dates August 18 August 20, followed by BC1278's first aggressive edits towards me five days later. Grump International (talk) 22:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

John Nagle's summary is correct except that I've never directly edited, tagged or proposed for deletion any articles with edits by Grump International. I no longer do direct editing on articles that have anything to do with business, even those where I don't have a COI, just to avoid the possibility of any issue under WP:COI (in a couple of instances editors have reviewed my proposed changes on Talk, then said I should make the edits directly, which I'll only do if they explicitly ask me.) I used Grump International's Talk page to point out the COI and promotional tone of their edits (a cluster around condos, their developers, management personnel and architects), then moved the discussion over to WP:COIN#Brickell_Flatiron when he/she deleted the post. "Blatant promotion" was identified by User:Nagle on two articles. User: Ronz, who deleted Grump's specific content on Brickell Flatiron noted in the edit history: "coi, grossly undue at best - whole article needs rewrite with eye to SOAP and CRYSTAL." See the Brickell Flatiron: Revision history. User: B137 independently noted on Grump's talk page that their contribution was "borderline on spam", language Grump removed. See the full post by B137 in the revision history of Grump's Talk page. Please note that after Grump uploaded a photo of an architect in an article he created, that architect's firm e-mailed Wikipedia to give permission to use the photo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3GATTI_Francesco_Gatti_photograph.jpg so I don't think there's any disputing that he/she has contact with subjects he writes about. (He explicitly denies even this aspect of COI at the bottom of the COIN post.]

User:Nagle proposed a couple of articles for deletion. Grump International's content was removed from one, Brickell Flatiron, (the article was not deleted after COIN editors found other reasons for notability, but Grump's contributed content was removed) and on the other 520 West 28th, Grump International removed the proposed deletion tag after adding new content, but without removing any of the identified promotional material. It was then I suggested to User: Nagle that admins needed to get involved in reviewing this account because the undisclosed COI editing was recurring after much notice about not putting promotional material into articles and disclosing COI.

The undisclosed COI overlaps with articles where I have a disclosed paid COI because at the time I complained on COIN, Grump International was using a largely single purpose account, with just a few promotional edits, to post simultaneously a deletion request, edit and post flags on articles that have come under repeated attacks over many years, to the point where they had to be placed under protection by admins. I pointed out on the deletion request page for WP:Articles for deletion/Ronen Shilo, where I a disclosed paid COI, that I don't think an undisclosed COI account, that shows evidence of possibly being a sock puppet because of its sophistication in Wikimedia mark up and policy relative to small number of edits (an observation originally made by admin User: Graeme Bartlett at WP:Articles for deletion/Ronen Shilo), should count toward consensus in the discussion of the article. Grump International made all his/her challenges almost immediately after User: Graeme Bartlett decided to split the article Conduit (publisher network and platform) into two articles (starting Conduit (company) because of the sale of the main platform discussed in the article). User: Graeme Bartlett used a draft I suggested on my sandbox, to start it off and asked other editors to help improve it, pointing out a disclosed COI editor was involved. User: Graeme Bartlett moved over the history of my sandbox, which show my edits there, but none of it was made on the article at Conduit (company). User: Graeme Bartlett also cleaned up Conduit (publisher network and platform) a bit, but it's an article with a very long history of editors inserting biased attacks backed up by unreliable sources like online discussion boards and single user blogs. Talk:Conduit (publisher network and platform) The violations were kept out by admins for years but mostly slipped back in after the article became unprotected. I've pointed out them out in its Talk page here: Talk:Conduit (publisher network and platform)#Request for assistance correcting poorly source material There are plenty of serious criticisms of the company in the article backed up by WP:RELIABLE sources, but that doesn't mean other attacks backed by no sources, original research, online forums or other unreliable sources should also be allowed.

I bring this up because I suspected something was amiss with Grump International when he placed a "news release" flag on the split off article, Conduit (company), almost immediately after it was posted and, when I tried to engage with Grump International on the article's Talk page, asking him/her to point out any issues to me, or work through the article with me section by section, or make changes him/herself directly, they declined in a nasty way: "feel free to gut the article of non-neutral material and I'm sure the tag will be removed." I pointed out to Grump International the article had very little original content -- that it was split off of another article with dozens of contributors that had been heavily patrolled and protected by two admins for several years. But I said I'd be happy to help him improve it, or, encouraged him to do it him/herself. The reply was just that the entire article was "spam." Given the user's unwillingness to engage in discussion, the simultaneous deletion request for Shilo, and the long history of biased attacks on these articles, I looked up Grump International's account and found the suspect history I discuss on COIN. I'd strongly suggest a WP:Checkuser here if policy allows - I'm not sure what the standards are for that but as admin User: Graeme Bartlett has noted,User: Grump International "is almost a single purpose account, but one that looks to have had previous experience before using this login due to their knowledge of procedures here and skill in Wikimarkup." Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronen Shilo

The subject of the Conduit (publisher network and platform) article approached me a few weeks ago and I found the state of the article's poorly sourced attacks now and over many years to be really egregious. They just put up with it because they had no idea what to do, even though it injured them very badly. I am a paid consultant to them - I agreed to help them if we strictly abided by WP:COI. I go beyond WP:COI by disclosing my real name and job history at User: BC1278. I don't do anything on Wikipedia that I wouldn't want revealed with my actual identity. I stay above board to the best of my abilities. When I began this account in 2014 I was a total novice without a clue but I've studied pretty vigorously over the past 18 months, interacted with a lot of experienced editors, and am just now feeling comfortable enough to complain about a serious issue with another editor. I'm trying to be proactive here because I think Wikipedia is very poorly served by undisclosed COI, personal bias and undisclosed alternate accounts, all of which can end up badly damaging the encyclopedia.BC1278 (talk) 01:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)BC1278

I'm not experienced enough to track how this happened, but User: Grump International's specific denials of the various types of COI and sock puppetry have been deleted or hidden from WP:COIN#Brickell_Flatiron and I think it's important to note he went on the record to the following questions I'd seen, in part, on the COIN board. I asked: "a) Do you have any connection with any of the people or companies you have edited about? (by that I am asking if you know the people, if you work for the companies, or work for an agency that works for/with the people or companies); b) Have you ever been paid, or expect to be paid, for editing Wikipedia?; c) Do you have an alternate account(s) on Wikipedia (or IP addresses used as accounts) and if so, what are they?; d) Have you contributed to Conduit (publisher network and platform) using an account other than User: Grump International?; d) If you don't have alternate accounts, given your small number of edits and almost total lack of interaction with other editors prior to your mark ups and nomination for deletion of Shilo, how/when did you acquire your Wikipedia mark up and policy skills, evident in the deletion nomination of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronen Shilo, the mark up and Talk discussion in Conduit (company) and your own tirade against COI editing on your use Talk page User talk:Grump International?" User: Grump International answered: "... Answering your Questions? a) no, b) no, c) no, d) no, e) Wikipedia is not rocket science and I've been here over a year. Anyone with even a moderate knowledge of computer coding should find Wikipedia fairly rudimentary...[remainder of post not shown for space] (talk) 22:16, 31 August 2015 " (talk) 04:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)BC1278

Finally, a point on a legal threat. I've been clear in challenging the Grump account as a COI and probably a sock puppet. Grump's response on one occasion was to make a hardly veiled legal threat against me: "I just don't see enough here to meet GNG, something mixed with rather slanderous accusations above." WP:Articles for deletion/Ronen Shilo He avoided saying "libelous" but slander is just the verbal form of libel. This violates WP: THREAT and is especially challenging to me as I openly disclose my real identity on my user profile. BC1278 (talk) 04:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)BC1278

Hi BC 1278. I had no intention of issuing a legal threat to you, my apologies if you took it that way. I also have no conflict of interest, as I explained in my answers to the quiz you demanded I answer for you at COIN :) I posted my delete vote and a news release tag on articles you are being paid to edit without knowing that you were being paid to edit them, in fact I had no idea who you were before you began interacting with me a week later, so I am secure in those decisions as they pre-date our actual interactions. Anything since, if there was an air of incivility to them, I apologize to you for that as well--no point in being stubborn on this board. Beyond that, how about we return to neutral here, and let bygones be bygones. I will stay away from articles you are being paid by Conduit to edit, as it appears we are perhaps unable to remain WP:CIVIL to each other, beyond what I have edited thus far, and we can decide not to talk to one another further. Or, if you prefer, we can try to be more amicable to one another. But if it has gotten this disruptive to Wikipedia, such that this appears on ANI, I am making the personal choice to step back from our interactions and move onto something else :) Grump International (talk) 14:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

151.49.94.203

151.49.94.203 (talk · contribs) - Could somebody please give an official warning to this user, who keeps vandalising Giorgia Marin? As an editor on nl-wiki I don't really know how to do this or what the procedures are. Thank you. I'm sorry if I should have reported this on another page. Regards, ErikvanB (talk) 21:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• @ErikvanB: Anytime you file a request on this board you MUST notify the user using {{subst:ANI-notice}} on their talk page. I have done that for you. In addition, I have left a warning regarding the unexplained removal of maintenance tags. For future reference please see Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace for a list of warnings. --Stabila711 (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
  • @Stabila711: Excellent. Understood. Thank you. ErikvanB (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

User:DPGCMonsta

Over the past several months, DPGCMonsta has been adding erronenous edits to the Ice Cube discography (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) page. Ice Cube's sales figured were inflated without any viable source and chart positions were modified without any supporting evidence. As shown on the RIAA reference pages, the certifications for all of Ice Cube's albums are indeed much lower than stated. This isn't accidental reproduction of fiction; it's all pure and intentional vandalism to this page.

Reference 1 Reference 2 Reference 3 Reference 4

Users such as myself and Mmrsofgreenhave reverted his/her's edits on multiple occassions, only to have our edits reverted back. It's rather annoying having to fix this page constantly just to provide the most accurate information. If you could look into this situation, that would be well appreciated. WolfSpear (talk) 21:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

This isn't WP:AIV or WP:RFPP. User:DPGCMonsta was blocked back in June for a week for copyright violation. Your edits show the reversions (both before and after the block) even though the editor has done a ton of edits in the page in sets like [116][117]. These seem to be reverted in full, is that all nonsense? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Adding to what Ricky81682 said; I notice that no discussion had been made on the article talk page, or DPGCMonsta's talk page. It is usually best to try to initiate a conversation (AGF and such). For all we know, DPGCMonsta may not know what they are doing wrong (although, it does not seem entirely likely that he is ignorant). -- Orduin ^Discuss 22:22, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Note that I recommended WolfSpear come here after seeing a report at RFPP. Protection is of little use here and the situation is too complicated for AIV. If DPGCMonsta is deliberately adding factual errors they should be blocked. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Reference source #11 is providing accurate information for the RIAA statistics (Gold, Platinum awards). The edits being made are inconsistent with that source and are purposely being made to enhance sales figures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WolfSpear (talk • contribs) 12:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Sietecolores

Sietecolores (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

I strongly dislike coming here, but there's an ongoing issue with an user that needs resolving, and some community input. Sietecolores, presumably a Chilean user, has been, for some days, nominating for deletion several articles related to Pichilemu, a provincial capital of Chile, given that these articles were written by me. I feel the user is harassing me, because we've had different points of view before on other stuff.

The nominated articles are Marta Urzúa, Radio Entreolas, José Arraño Acevedo, Antonio Saldías and Heredero de tu Amor; all of these but the one about the radio were written long ago, and have stayed here because they pass notability guidelines. There is plenty of material about these individuals, mostly offline, I have pointed out such a thing to Sietecolores, but they have omitted discussing objectively, instead distorting arguments and reasons, prefering to disrupt the project.

A block (or at least a warning) should be in order. Sietecolores should stop pushing their bias against articles about so-called third-world people and stuff. --Diego Grez-Cañete (talk) 00:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You're required to provide them with an notice to the ANI discussion. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marta Urzúa shows that it's not a clear-cut nonsensical AFDs as does Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/José Arraño Acevedo. There are going to be difficulties in finding supporting sources online but at the very least, notify Sietecolores as required above. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Sietecolores notified. Blackmane (talk) 02:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• OK, that notification is great. Thanks. Now to the matter at hand: Ricky81682 already noted what I saw as well. I looked at all of them hoping to find easy bad-faith nominations, so I could close them early and we'd be done. But that's not the case. It may well be so that the nominator is picking on this particular community, but that in itself is not in violation of anything--all the nominator would have to say is the magic word, "walled garden". These AfDs by themselves are valid. Drmies (talk) 02:30, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

A note of background. All these non-notable Pichilemu-related articles have been around in Wikipedia since 2009-2010 when Diego Grez-Cañete joined the project and begun creating them. Prior to that coverage on Pichilemu was equally bad to the coverage of other Chilean towns. Much good content on Pichilemu has been created but also much that is not notable. The non-notable content has survived not because of notability or a "test of time" as Diego suggests but because nobody has cared about the issue. Pichilemu (pop. 13,000) and Chilean towns of that size in general are not a hot topic that might attract scrutiny. Also, users who don't read Spanish might have felt incompetent to evaluate the "notability" of the content that relies on Spanish language sources. Sietecolores (talk) 08:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me. When someone finds one, then two articles that need AFD, it isn't uncommon to expect a nest of them and go searching. Maybe by article creator, maybe by Wikilinks or some other method. This isn't picking on someone, this is looking for low hanging fruit. Unless a nefarious motive can be demonstrated, you have to assume it was old fashioned hunting and finding within a group. The AFDs themselves each seem reasonable, the number generated won't put an undue burden on the system, the community can decide just as they do all AFDs. Some of the language below the nom is assuming bad faith, which really should be avoided. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:31, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• The nominations are reasonable, there is something of a WP:WALLEDGARDEN going on here with Pichilemu content. See Template:Pichilemu for examples. I applaud Diego Grez-Cañete for his efforts but some rationalization through mergers/redirects/deletions is needed to keep this content in line with notability standards. Vrac (talk) 21:15, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• There is a lot of articles about Pichilemu in Wikipedia, most of them are completely unessential. --Keysanger (talk) 11:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

New user Ontario Teacher BFA BEd, article Proportional representation

• Ontario Teacher BFA BEd (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Proportional representation (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

A new user, Ontario Teacher BFA BEd, is being disruptive on the Proportional representation page, pushing an anti-PR view while ignoring sources. His (I assume he) first edits (16-17 Aug) referred to PR as an electoral system, a beginner error (see first sentence of the article), and that these had no districts (or ridings as he prefers) - all voting systems have districts (if sometimes only one). So I reverted it (on Aug 18) with just a comment assuming it to be frivolous. The changes were re-introduced on 18-19 Aug (partly anonymously) so in seven entries on the article's Talk page (on Aug 20, Aug 23, Aug 24, Aug 25, Aug 26, Aug 27, Aug 28) I tried to explain his errors, some of which are fantastical, reverting his changes four further times (Aug 20, Aug 23, Aug 24, Aug 25). This grudgingly produced some mostly minor corrections but important errors have not been reversed. On Aug 26, wearying, and in the hope of encouraging cooperation, I didn't revert, and instead required him to revert his changes and then integrate them into the article. This was not successful, the serious errors have not been reverted (for example section "Wider benefits to society" remains deleted without a word, closed and open list systems still have no districts, and that remains unsourced). An important sentence in the lead, that MMP "is usually considered a distinct PR method" has been replaced by "is considered a mixed system, which is a distinct voting system", a wrong, pointless statement which misrepresents the sources. This unnecessary and confusing use of "mixed systems" has caused confusion in the past (last autumn, see e.g. Talk Archive 3 - search for tier), and for this reason the term was replaced by me on Dec 11 by "two tier systems", sourced, and entirely uncontroversial. This has now affected the structure of the article (Sep 1), a renamed section "Mixed Electoral Systems" (capitalized) is no longer part of "PR electoral systems" - misleading and confusing - and "List of countries using proportional representation" is now unhelpfully "List of countries using proportional representation or mixed systems". On the Talk page his tone and arguments are not indicative of good faith, throwing my arguments back at me. For example, that I should respect WP:VERIFY, or, when I attempted to invoke WP:BRD, warning me against re-inserting "the same flawed text" and that I should post to the talk page before making any further changes. But I'm not making any changes, I'm only reverting him. When I pointed out that MOS deprecates small sub-sections he replied that they help readers. He changed the Talk section name to read that it is he reverting me, which of course he isn't.

I don't have the time or energy to continue composing reasoned criticisms of his changes, and no one else is keeping an active watch on the page, so I would like the user blocked from the page. Then I can revert a final time and add some words to the "Link between constituent and representative" section to emphasize that this is an FPTP (first past the post) advantage, his original concern.

(Full disclosure: I have rewritten most of this article (down to "History"), basically in two chunks on Aug 2 2014 and Dec 11 2014), and have since been trying to preserve the article from the usual decay, from which it has suffered much in its past. Only the section "Party list PR", which User:Ontario has changed, not for the better, remained from before Aug 2014, not because it was good but because I haven't found the energy/enthusiasm to research and re-write it; neither, of course, has any one else). --BalCoder (talk) 07:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you trim it down more - it is rife with "original research", parenthetical observation, and in a few cases actual misstatements. It does not cover "vote weight proportional to the number of voters" (found in some labour unions), seats reserved for specific groups, and a large number of other systems competing with the traditional "first past the post" system so widely found. Take out all the editorial opinion and work with what remains, and be open to understanding that there are many different flavors of "proportional representation" indeed. Collect (talk) 17:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Collect: Once User Ontario's "original research" and misstatements have been dealt with, if you add a few words to the talk page identifying the other instances, and providing sources demonstrating the relevance to PR of your other points, I'll be happy to make the changes. --BalCoder (talk) 07:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Sock puppet of banned spammer

82.232.81.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is the latest IP of banned editor Archiboule. Eik Corell (talk) 11:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Archiboule (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• The 4th Coming (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Archiboule's account has been globally locked by a steward, but they are still evading the block with IPs. I'm semiprotecting The 4th Coming for three months and leaving a ping for User:Materialscientist. His name is mentioned at Talk:The 4th Coming as having issued some blocks in this case. EdJohnston (talk) 01:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Tortle

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I really didn't want to post this to ANI, since it appears that the edits made by this user were done in good faith. However, I see a WP:COMPETENCE problem with their editing.

Tortle is a member that first edited on August 18, 2015 who claims that they has edited Wikipedia "five or six years ago". They nominated and reviewed articles without good understanding of the GA criteria; see Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Bulk reviews and nominations by new editor. They also founded Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedia, which is unrelated to the original WikiProject Wikipedia (which has been renamed WP:WikiProject Improving Wikipedia), and basically implies that Tortle WP:OWNs the project. (I do not have to provide any diffs; just look at the project pages.) The project is broadly redundant to the existing Wikipedia:Help Project. I appreciate their enthusiasm, but I think that currently they is doing more harm than good to Wikipedia. sovereign°sentinel (contribs) 12:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

There are also concerns about changes to various help & directory pages. I raised one question at Wikipedia talk:Department directory. As the OP said, I'm sure that the edits are well-intentioned, but I do not think that it is wise for a new user (still at school according to his user page) to undertake such drastic restructuring without having discussed the idea with the community. --David Biddulph (talk) 12:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Tortle set about changing the leads to the 600 odd "[date] in literature" pages and appears to have completed this time-consuming task. The problem is that the lead he chose is ambiguous in my view (the pages do not list historical events, only literary ones). I tried to point this out to him as he began the project but he paid no attention. As I understand it, there should have been an open discussion on the matter at that point. In practical terms, I can't see myself finding the two or three days required to alter the 600 leads again at any time in the next few months, although eventually I would like to comb them all out for other reasons: inconsistent punctuation and layout, for instance. I feel that Tortle (apparently still a schoolboy) hasn't grasped that Wikipedia is a cooperative project. I think he should be asked to acknowledge this and undertake to act in a cooperative fashion in future. Ideally his energy and enthusiasm should not be lost to us if possible. Bmcln1 (talk) 12:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I noticed some of the templates (barnstars, trophies, and whatnot) intended for use in the the "new" WikiProject when they were created while browsing through Special:NewPages templates the other day. I was concerned at the time about the ones related to the "founder" in respect to WP:OWN, and the other membership statuses. I've kept an eye on it ever since. As the main page (Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedia) has now been deleted, I've nominated several corresponding pages which rely on it for speedy deletion. Depending on the outcome of this discussion, and if those are deleted; I may also look into the page moves which have been reverted that left perhaps undesirable redirects (i.e. Wikipedia:WikiProject Improving Wikipedia related).—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 15:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I moved the original Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedia back to its original name. It has been an inactive WikiProject but I don't believe that one editor, especially an editor who has been around two weeks, can move an existing WikiProject and place it with one with the same name that they created themselves with no input from other editors. It was suggested to them that they take their proposal to the WikiProject Council talk page but that suggestion was rejected. This seems like this editor is in a hurry (2,000+ edits in two weeks?) that doesn't allow for consensus decision-making.

I think the pages s/he created could be restored (and adapted) if Tortle finds support to create a WikiProject with a different name. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

And if they address the WP:OWN issues, which is not hard.All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:16, 2 September 2015 (UTC).

I spent a few hours last night fixing redirects.... does look like everything was done with good intentions but way too fast.... many errors that other editors are not trying to fix. all edits should be reviewedMoxy (talk) 15:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I noticed this user after I received an invite to join a vaguely purpose project they'd created. I noticed the user had trouble deciding on a username for some odd reason, and WP:COMPETENCE came to mind. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I also get the strong impression that Tortle is acting in good faith, but possibly more enthusiasm than caution. I would like to see this handled with that in mind, as I think Tortle could become a valued contributor once they get a better feel for the system. The basic concept of the new project is commendable, even if the execution was problematic. I was hoping that it could have been sorted out less bluntly. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 16:15, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

We might be better able to judge Tortle's competence if we could check the edits under his previous username from when he was active several years ago, and see what occurred at the time. Given that the Orange Tortle and Green Tortle accounts noted by Ohnoitsjamie are also still out there, perhaps a full disclosure of all related accounts is in order. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry too much about previous edits, or legitimate alternate accounts. The important thing is to establish dialogue, which indeed some of us were already trying to do. It may be a little hard, but it's worth the effort. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:16, 2 September 2015 (UTC).

Responding to this user by speedy-deleting their contributions as g2/g3 (hoax or vandalism) when they are clearly neither is not helpful. Moving the "project" to a holding name would have been quicker and less harmful. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC).

I have to agree with this. While I can see arguments for not keeping the page, it being a hoax or obvious vandalism is not one of them. Sam Walton (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I am kind of hurt because I woke up to find everything that I spent hours on deleted. I feel like it could have at least been moved to another name. I am very frustrated that it was all done before I could suggest a move. I could have fixed the problems with WP:OWN and continued with it under a different name. It is suggested but not required that one discuss a wikiproject before creating it. I looked at that page where people suggest wikiprojects and there doesn't even seem to be any conversation going on anyway. So all I'm asking is that an admin who probably can, restore the wikiproject under a new name so that changes can be made and all of the hard work on the code isnt lost. I feel that this was handed hastily as many of you feel the WikiProject was. Thanks Tortle (talk) 20:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Liz, User:Rich Farmbrough, User:Ohnoitsjamie, or User:Samwalton9 can one of you restore the project under a random name? I feel like everything got deleted faster due to hoax and vandalism being on the speedy deletion templates and that didn't even give me a chance to copy and past code or anything. Thanks Tortle (talk) 20:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Sadly I don't have those kinds of superpowers. (I have other kinds, but there is too much kryptonite about to use most of them.) All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC).

Well who has them User:Rich Farmbrough? Tortle (talk) 20:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The other three users you pinged, for starters. Full list here. But I suggest that one of those three will probably turn up soemtime soonish. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC).

Thanks Rich Farmbrough Tortle (talk) 20:55, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I made a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion so perhaps one of you that I pinged can review the request over there.

Tortle, my sympathy for you is limited at this point as I am still undoing your (and Jj98's) edits for this undertaking you pursued without discussing it with any other editors working in the WikiProject area. I keep finding more pages to move, edits to undo and categories to tag for deletion. Categories should never be moved without going through a WP:CFD discussion or, if warranted, they can be suggested for a speedy category rename. I am baffled that an editor with a two week old account would move an entire WikiProject and all of its associated pages and categories to a different name without discussing it first at some talk page, like Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council which is where new proposals for WikiProjects are posted and considered.

On one hand, I can appreciate all of the work you put into this but on the other hand, all I've been doing today is fixing your mistakes. This could have been easily avoided if you had just discussed your idea first. Some other admin might jump in here to help you with the restorations but as for me, I will not restore any pages until I have cleaned up this mess first.

You could aid in this process by undoing the hundreds of associated edits you have made regarding the faux WikiProject Improving Wikipedia. All of the changes you made have need to be undone before I'd consider restoring any pages. Don't fret, a restoration is likely but it will occur faster if you help with the work! Besides undoing your changes, if you want to create a new WikiProject, I suggest you reply to the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council#Tortle's new WikiProject and float your ideas there. WikiProjects are collaborations among editors, not solo creations of "founders". 22:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I probably should have seen this coming a couple days ago and acted. I had no idea of the wholesale changes and policy violations that were going on. I asked Tortle if he needed any help with the project and he assured me he did not. In a spirit of good humor I asked to be a charter member, but failed to look more deeply into the matter. Had I done so, it would have been obvious what was going on, and I could have spoken up. My apologies to all concerned. Jusdafax 01:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

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Repeated copyvio

Esufalim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After receiving warnings from multiple users about WP:COPYVIO, Esufalim has once again posted the same damn material as last time. WP:CIR block needed. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Indef blocked. I don't know what it is about that source. That's at least the fifth editor I've come across copying from it word for word. And the source itself is very likely a copyright violation as it copies a chunk of text from a 11,000 page, $750 book. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

92.40.249.28 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is likely linked as I just reverted a copy paste to Nizari. NeilN, given your familiarity with the source, you may want to check the other stuff and revert or see if there's a connection to the other editors. (Dynamic IP, not used since Aug 22, so not notifying). —SpacemanSpiff 15:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Got them. It'd be easier to check for connections if [insert standard rant about how the WMF dev department lacks competence or professionalism]. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Persistent copyvios

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WikipediaismadebypeoplelikeM78E (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been repeatedly uploading copyvio images to Commons and adding them to articles here, namely Maine Mendoza, Pabebe Wave and AlDub. This is despite warnings on their talk page both here and on Commons. I request that they be given a block or at the very least an absolutely final warning.

I have made the same request also on Commons. BethNaught (talk) 16:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Indef blocked with a standard note that they can be unblocked if they show they understand and are willing to abide by Wikipedia's copyright policies. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, NeilN. BethNaught (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

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User:Josu4u disruptive use of Page Curation

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Josu4u (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I bring to your attention the user Josu4u who appears to lack an understanding of deletion criteria, but over at least the past couple of months has been persistently using WP:Page Curation to flag new and not-so-new articles with tags which are at best sort of random, and at worst completely wrong. Some examples:

• Kiel Society for Film Music Research - tagged A1 (it has definite context), A7 (it asserts significance and has multiple sources), G11 (it's not clear advertising)
• Tim Huebschle - tagged {{blp sources}}, it's a stub with six references
• Unni maya ( Singer ) - tagged {{blp prod}} even though it has seven references
• Anju Kurian - Josu4u removed a number of sources, then immediately nominated the article for deletion (improperly, I'm going to fix it) with the rationale "URLs used for References are abuse and there's no importance of the article." He has nominated several others solely due to having unformatted references.
• Z word - tagged G3 and A1 (this was clearly not vandalism, it's a redirect that's been around since 2010)
• Jothisha - tagged A7 (article has references)

On the user's talk page you'll find a number of requests stretching back over a couple of months (most recently by DGG today) to stop speedy-tagging articles because they clearly lack understanding of the criteria, and improperly tagging articles wastes admin time and unnecessarily bites the newcomers, yet they don't seem to be getting the point. Several of the articles Josu4u suggests should be deleted eventually are, but rarely for the reasons he suggests, and usually only after a separate discussion. Therefore, Josu4u's use of Page Curation is of no benefit (and of noted detriment) to the project, and I propose he be at least temporarily banned from its use. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello Ivanvector, Please have a look on my explanation. Articles Jothisha, Anju Kurian, Unni maya ( Singer )  : These articles are created by a Wikipedian, by submitting references which are not related to any importance of articles, some of the references mentioned within the article doesn't even mention anything about the article. I'm from Kerala. That article creator is creating Wikipedia Articles as a package here for an amount, according to the latest method for verifying Facebook pages, Facebook check whether Wikipedia is there for that person or not, because Wikipedia is referred as an importance of significance of the person. I have already mentioned about the creator of these Wikipedia articles in various discussions and none of them even tried to check the URLs submitted by the creator is from any trusted online newspapers or not. If these continues that article creator will create Wikipedia articles for anyone who showed their faces in a crowd sequence in a small movie and still you are going to requesting to block me for reporting these kinds of non-significant articles, then I am very sorry.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Josu4u (talk • contribs) 19:36, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not going to excuse all the page curation issues raised in this thread, but several of the articles noted are creations of JithDominicJose04 and have been extremely problematic; they are often referenced by sources which do not support the claims for which they are cited (nor mention the subject at all, in many cases). I've raised the issue in a thread a few below this for potential administrative action, as they've been at it for a really long time. That said, Josu4u is clearly not a native speaker of English and has an imperfect grasp of the project's sundry deletion processes (to say nothing of our local jargon), and that's presented some difficulties. Page Curation is perhaps not the area to which their time is best applied. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:52, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for saying it, I had meant to. It is quite clear that Josu4u is operating in good faith but perhaps in over his head with Page Curation. His allegations of abuse are important, and I'm glad that the thread below has been opened, especially in light of the recent revelation of a massive paid editing operation. However, I still think it would be very wise for him to report any future abuse to an administrator or this board, and not use Page Curation until he better understands the tags he's placing. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Josu4u not only has good intentions, but his identification of this problem has been very helpful. Unfortunately, checking new pages uses a specialized Wikipedia terminology which causes confusion if not used as expected. I urge Josu4u to keep going here till he has the experience (first watching and then commenting at AfD is the way to learn how to handle deletions)/And if he says anything that really needs attention, let me or another admin know. DGG ( talk ) 04:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Seems that the editor is good faith and just needs a helping help. I recommend voluntary mentorship or adoption if Josu4u is willing. I can volunteer as needed. Winner 42 Talk to me! 04:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think given the recent discovery of socks by the user discussed here: discussion that this should be closed. Wildthing61476 (talk) 17:01, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

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Lost Embers Page

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I notice that the Lost Embers page has been removed and the editor blocked from editing the page. Please can this block be revoked as Lost Embers is a UK based musician and all information provided was correct and referenced.

Please let me know how this block can be revoked.

Thanks

John Boon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.253.165 (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The subject does not meet WP:MUSIC notability criteria, and as such there is no compelling reason to recreate it. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 21:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

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Personal Threats from User:Ebyabe

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User:Ebyabe has threatened me ("hope things are nice in Warrington btw"). I found that terrifying and did not know the finding of that info was possible. In my view nothing, nothing whatsoever can warrant so personal and sinister a threat, especially not such comparably petty sins as an apologised for violation of WP:AGF and supposed -unproved-sock puppetry. Frankly, it's the sort of thing usually reserved for psychopathic criminals in TV shows. I would advocate a permanent ban. They give wiki a bad name and such stalking is a deterrent to editors.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/679161407

5.69.65.122 (talk) 20:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I recommended that this user report me at ANI. They forgot to notify me, so I took the liberty of notifying myself. The user's actions may have influenced me to go a bit far with the Warrington comment, and for that I apologize. I used the IP trace tools (which are available to every registered user, not just admins) to find an approximate location. I could have done it and not mentioned it, but perhaps unwisely chose otherwise. Of course, that's a reason to create an account so any Wikipedia user can't do that, but that's another issue. Thank you all for your consideration in this matter. --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Union of Opposites ‖ 21:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

An IP is not anonymous in the slightest. All IPs generally indicate where they're assigned as a matter of course. That said, Ebyabe's comment was out of line. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) SPI case Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gothaparduskerialldrapolatkh is still open so nothing is proved or unproved at this moment. An edit like this shows a familiarity with how things work around here so it is hard to imagine that someone would be completely unaware of the geolocate functions. BTW there is a large orange box stating that you must notify an editor when you open a thread about them. You failed to do this. On top of that the personal attacks added to your post here make AGF difficult. MarnetteD|Talk 21:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

SPIs will never connect accounts to IPs absent severe, systemic abuse. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 21:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• IP is a block evading sock editing disruptively; edit-warring; and then complaining about other editors for calling them out. Have closed SPI as a WP:DUCK case and blocked IP and master. CU's are not allowed to connect IPs and accounts based on non-public evidence. Admins do it all the time using public behavioral evidence. I am in a soup if I am wrong about this. :) ) Abecedare (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

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Davefelmer

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Davefelmer (talk · contribs) was recently blocked for 24 hours for edit warring, but has simply continued to edit the same things over and over again that caused him to come into trouble. He has also used an IP (136.167.9.178 (talk)), accidental or not, in order to do this. Some further action against this person for his behaviour would be nice. Thanks, ^{My name is}not^dave (talk/contribs) 20:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Davefelmer (talk) 20:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)that is blatantly not true and I have only edited factual information that was incorrectly used before.

• Davefelmer just needs to be banned outright. ALL of its edits are tendentious - treating wikipedia as a battleground between Manchester United and Liverpool FC. It's childish and pathetic. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I have great sympathy for User:Davefelmer's position on several things, but his conduct has been abominable. An outright ban would not be appropriate, but a longer block may be appropriate until he can show he can work collaboratively with others. – PeeJay 21:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

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User: springee and Koch Industries

Complaint regarding Springee and the Koch Industries page:

I (VeritasVincintUSA) am a new Wikipedia editor, and attempted to make a substantive change to the Koch Industries article, which I believe to have been deliberately whitewashed. Following the complete reversion of my entire edit, springee and others have attempted to completely shut down or delay discussion on the numerous substantive problems identified with the article. Instead, springee filed a frivolous "sockpuppet" investigation against me and posted a spurious accusation on my talk page about association with a conspiracy theory site.

In the context of the Koch Industries talk page, springee has:

1) analogized my edits to arguing that the "confederate flag isn't racist"

2) initially repeatedly argued broadly against the entire substantive edit, while refusing to engage on the substantive details (even after a detailed edit summary was posted for each proposed change)

3) when he did engage with one of the proposals (see the particularly egregious current language under "Fatal Pipeline Explosion" and springee's defense), he again would only say broadly that "I do not support the new language as better than the existing entry" and reverted my attempted edit without posting any sensible justification

It appears that springee has also been active on the talk page for the related Americans For Prosperity where he also analogized criticism of the Kochs with "racism." The discussion, to date, on the Koch Industries talk page, coupled with the text of the page, itself, seems to confirm my belief that the entry has been deliberately whitewashed.

I hereby request redress both, specifically, regarding springee, and more broadly regarding the integrity of the Wikipedia entries concerning Koch Industries and its affiliates. There were allegations of paid PR firms "airbrushing" these specific entries back in 2011, and both the activity and text that I observed seems to suggest that some form of shenanigans is ongoing. - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 21:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

References

Springee Initial Reply I don't want to snap at a new user. In this case I think he is misunderstanding things and has filed this in frustration. To address some of his specific points.

• Sockpuppet investigation: Yes, I did ask for an investigation because VeritasVincitUSA (same user as blocked Kochtruth). I was correct they were the same user but I was wrong in thinking that making a new account was not allowed in that case. Please see Ricky81682's comments on the KochTruth's talk page. Note that I never mentioned the investigation. It was "brought to his attention".[[118]]
• The user misunderstood my analogy. I was attempting to explain that having a user name like KochTruth suggests a strong POV and thus other editors may be suspicious of claims to a NPOV when a user has such a name. My analogy is here [[119]] and the follow up statement mentioning the confederate flag here [[120]].
• VVUSA's initial article insertion was 8600 bite [[121]] and reverted by another editor. I have only made one revert of 215 bites [[122]]. VVUSA added a lot of information to the talk page (which I'm OK with) but it's taking myself and others a while to get through it (20,500 bite addition [[123]]). Asking the user to slow down so others can have a proper look seems very reasonable.
• The question about the KochTruths blog seemed reasonable given the previous user name. I think my phrasing could be better but I think the question was reasonable regardless. Please see VVUSA's talk page for the question and my reply.
• The implication that I'm no a company payroll is a bad faith claim.

Overall I think VVUSA may be expressing frustration that things aren't going his way. I believe Ricky81682 was worried that the user might be problematic. I think the user has a clear and strong POV on the subject and clearly wants to make BOLD changes. But I also think he has thus far played by the rules. I would ask that this ANI be closed. Springee (talk) 00:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I think that a thorough impartial review of the talk page as of the time this entry was filed will tell a different story other than "things not going my way." Specifically, there was a strong-willed reluctance to engage with the facts and sources as presented, coupled with an attempt to circumvent discussion with the frivolous "sockpuppet" investigation and attempt to discredit me by asserting that I was associated with a conspiracy theory site. While I did not mean to assert that springee, specifically, was "on the dole," I continue to believe it is advisable to call the integrity of the articles for Koch Industries and its affiliates into question. The combination of the entries' checkered past, and current presentation, cast down on their integrity.

springee has repeatedly (on the talk page) tried to cite his belief that I have a "strong POV" to discredit my edits. However, he seems incredibly reluctant to actually engage with the proposed edits and sources, themselves, while the nature of his participation on the Americans For Prosperity and Koch Industries threads demonstrates that he, himself, has a "strong POV." Engagement with the sources would show that the current article suffers from a clear "POV problem." In at least one instance (which I outlined in "Fatal Pipeline Explosion" on the talk page), the text of the existing article is so biased and misleading that it is my contention that the language in question could only have been written by somebody on the company's behalf. It should be noted that springee reverted back to the problematic language without adequate justification or explanation. - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 01:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

VeritasVincitUSA, not only are things "not going your way", but, when last I checked, no other editor had agreed with any of your 10 suggested edits. As I said before, an editor who actually wants to improve Wikipedia would only introduce one or two of these suggestions at a time, and allow time for discussion before adding controversial material. As for the thinkprogress.org reference, I believe it was considered "disproved" in the actual Wikipedia investigation. I could be wrong, but at least one item from criticism of Wikipedia is without evidence of actual problems with Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin: Your claim that "no other editor has agreed with any of your 10 suggested edits" could just as easily be re-framed to state that, at the time of this ANI, only 3 of the 9 proposed edits had any objections or rebuttals since they were posted days ago. One of the three, to which an objection was raised, was the disputed "Fatal Pipeline Explosion" entry. As I indicated, I expect an independent, thorough, review of the Koch Industries talk page as of this ANI will refute your assertion that things were "not going [my] way" or challenge the relative strength of the facts, sources, and arguments that I presented to defend my proposed edits.

Your assertion that I might not "actually want to improve Wikipedia" is unfair and, again, I rest on the specific facts, sources, and supporting arguments that I have cited on the talk page to support my criticism of the existing article and the need for substantive revisions. - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 06:03, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

ANI is not appropriate for content disputes. VeritasVincitUSA, you started with the name Kochtruth which made me question whether you are here with a proper purpose or not. Many admins would have blocked you outright and moved on. I'm again presuming that you come here with the intent to create a neutral article and not to create a hit piece. The subject matter, as you are well aware, is extraordinarily controversial, is subject to numerous restrictions at the highest Wikipedia levels due to the behaviors there and as such, sources need to be neutral and reliable. Your starting comments here don't indicate that you are treating the views of others with equal respect as required here. An accusation that someone is "whitewashing" an article is no minor nor laughing matter as it's a direct personal attack on the editors. The article exists as it is exists either due (a) to some massive conspiracy of editors to whitewash the article or (b) because that's the consensus view over the years this has been topic. One allegation is frankly not productive here and is likely to get you topic banned if not blocked. At the moment, you've proposed ten separate edits and have opposition to all which is normal for new content proposed on controversial pages. Accept that opposition with an modicum of respect and try suggesting re-wording to provide a consensus viewpoint that supports the views of those who disagree or otherwise, try one of these other remedies for broader support (this is not one of them). However, I warn you that most people would presume that someone who comes, make a demand for a number of specific wordings, received opposition and only responds by making further and further attacks on their opposition is not the kind of editor wanted here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Ricky81682: Your assertion that I have "opposition to all" of my edits is not supported by the discussion (or lack thereof) on the 9 specific edit proposals on the talk page. I just checked again and no specific objections or rebuttals were made to most of the edits as of the time that I started writing this post. "Accept[ing]...opposition with an modicum of respect and try suggesting re-wording" is precisely what I have done on the specific requests where there was opposition. For example, the version of "Fatal Pipeline Explosion" that I attempted to insert (which was promptly reverted by springee without explanation or justification) was not the original proposed revision and reflected the earlier input that I received from other editors. I have not made "demands" for wording as you indicated above. All of this is borne out by the content on the Koch Industries talk page submitted with the ANI request.

I have also not been the one "attacking." As a new editor, I was immediately met with a "username ban." When I continued the conversation with a new username as directed to by the notice I received, I was met with a "sockpuppet investigation." After posting my detailed edit requests, I was accused of association with a conspiracy theory site. Accusations have been repeatedly made (including in this thread) that I have too "strong a POV" to be an effective editor. And, yet, there is a remarkable lack of engagement from my "opposition" with the specific substance of my edit requests despite all these "attacks" that I have been subject to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VeritasVincitUSA (talk • contribs) 09:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC) (sorry, I forgot to sign) - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 09:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

VVUSA, you actually are attacking via implication. You just again implied that editors on the article are Koch affiliated. That does not help others assume you are coming with a NPOV. You now have three editors on the article who have asked you to slow down and give people time to read over your proposed edits. Please heed their requests and let the process take it's time. Springee (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Where did I "again impl[y] that editors on the article are Koch affiliated" in the paragraph immediately above? I merely responded to the accusation that I was "attacking" people by illustrating how I, in fact, was the one being "attacked." In fact, I explicitly made clear that I was NOT leveling such an accusation against any individual editor (and you in particular, springee) in a preceding paragraph. - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 13:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I recommend that an admin also address Springee's tendentious editing. On multiple articles and with multiple editors, Springee reverts material or demands a consensus before well sourced information gets added to the article. This is an explicit example of tendentious editing. As per WP:TEND , "You delete the cited additions of others with the complaint that they did not discuss their edits first." A cursory search of of the article in question or Springee's contributions supply evidence for this on multiple occasions. I can provide diffs if necessary, just ping me.Scoobydunk (talk) 20:45, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I understand that you were not involved in the recent edits on the page in question. Perhaps you should review them and all of my "changes", all one of them, before accusing me of tendentious editing. If you think there is evidence that I was in the wrong please present it. Springee (talk) 21:11, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Request for administrator to close this ANI Though I think VeritasVinvitUSA was not acting in bad faith, this is an improperly formed ANI. I ask that it be closed. Thanks Springee (talk) 17:20, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I reiterate my request an impartial review of the referenced Koch Industries talk thread in the context of this ANI thread. The hostility, persistent insinuations and accusations regarding my POV and motives, and absence of meaningful, specific, constructive engagement on the substance of the individual edit requests that I have proposed should be obvious to a detached observer. That said, if Springee and others are willing to cease their "attacks" on me, and similarly work constructively as part of the editing process, I do not object to the ultimate closing of this ANI without sanctions being applied. - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Springee - We're past that, I think. You might wish to read WP:BOOMERANG, however, as it may become relevant. VeritasVincitUSA - OK, let's start over. However you intended your statements, some editors have taken them as attacks. The term "Whitewashing" is taken very seriously around here, and you've got to understand that people take that sort of statement very seriously and, frequently, very personally. They don't know you, they just know that a newer editor is demanding sweeping changes to a very controversial article, and that this new editor seems to be accusing people of shenanigans. I'm not saying this is the case, but look at it from their side - we get a lot of that sort of thing. So you're clearly upset, and they're clearly not agreeing to your edits - whether because of perceived bias on your part or because of flaws in the edits themselves, I don't know. So take a deep breath, acknowledge that there were misunderstandings, and start over - pick one of these edits, propose it, and discuss ways in which the core information (who did what when with whom, etc) can be added to the article. Perhaps the references can be supplemented with sources from other editors, or assertions can be corroborated. Discussion is your path forward, here. We have lots and lots of very new editors who come here to right great wrongs - many end up blocked for reasons best laid out at WP:NOTHERE. If you can work with us, we welcome your input, just as we require you to be open to the input of others. If not, then perhaps this is not the project for you. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 19:40, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

As you can see from the Koch Industries talk thread, I am not only welcoming of input from others but eager to collaborate with other editors to arrive at the fairest and most objective treatment of the facts. In fact, I incorporated feedback from other editors in each revision of language that I proposed. I am still eager for a constructive dialog and very open to new information, such as additional sources that challenge the facts or narrative in the sources that I initially supplied. Per springee's earlier suggestion to start with a single edit, I recommended that we start with the "Fatal Pipeline Explosion" entry, and even he admitted that the language in the existing article "could use improvement". It would be great if we could start there and work collaboratively and constructively on that topic. - VeritasVincitUSA (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree, I think you do want to discuss and actually I'm pleased that you have elected to put your proposed changes on the talk page rather than on the article. All I, and others are asking is that you slow down and understand that people are going to assume you have a strong POV on the subject. As I've said before, a strong POV is NOT a problem and doesn't mean that you will make bad edits. You just have to understand that people have to be given time to digest the edits you want to make. As I said on the talk page, you should come at this with the assumption that the editors think the current article is fine and thus you must sell them on the idea that your changes will improve things. Often you have claimed a fact is significant but how do we decide that? We have to assume you have a bias towards including those facts based on your strong POV. That means we need something other than your opinion. That's not an attack, just explaining things from the other side of the table. Springee (talk) 21:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment All articles that are related to the Koch brothers have seen a fair amount of both whitewashing and blackwashing, but there are also a lot of editors who are working hard to maintain a NPOV. There has been some actual misbehavior on both the whitewashing and blackwashing sides but there are a lot more claims of misbehavior where no misbehavior -- just a content dispute -- exists. Normally I would predict that this was going to end up at arbcom with the result of discretionary sanctions, but the articles in question are already under discretionary sanctions as part of the american politics case. As the US elections grow more heated, I expect we will see a lot more of this. I think the best answer is to be liberal with the admin-issued warnings and with short blocks when we see misbehavior, meanwhile referring content disputes to WP:DRR. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Apparent reference abuse in Indian music/actor articles

JithDominicJose04 (talk · contribs) has been an active creator and editor of articles related to Indian actors and actresses (many of whom also have a singing career) and their associated films. However, their contributions have been markedly suboptimal. Specifically, seemingly cognizant of the need to provide references, all of these articles do just that—but the references provided rarely, if ever, make even passing mention of the topic of the article. They do not support the claims that they cite. Rather, this is pure reference abuse, making the appearance of cited sources to avoid quick-deletion processes like BLP-PROD or CSD. Several have been deleted recently, and another has only just appeared at AFD due to a defective prior listing. It is worth noting that the deletion nominator of all these articles, @Josu4u: is clearly not a native speaker of English; his complaints about "invalid URLs" may have allowed others to overlook or disregard the actual nature of the problem.

This situation is ongoing. JithDominicJose04's most recent creation was two days ago. Unni maya ( Singer ) suffers from precisely the same reference manipulation problem as the deleted articles listed above. In this case, it is possible that the topic of the article was intended to be "Devi Unnimaya", who is at least mentioned in the first linked source. However, sources that appear to actually support establishing notability (like the one for her purported involvement in Rani Padmini, do not mention "Unni" or "Maya" or anything that could remotely be interpreted as referring to this article's topic). Most of these articles don't have even that level of support in the "references".

JithDominicJose04 has never posted to an article Talk page, a User Talk page, nor have they participated in any of the extremely numerous deletion discussions for their articles (see their Talk, which is surely not comprehensive), except to strip deletion templates. Competence is required, especially in articles like these, where WP:BLP is potentially at play. It is also worth noting that there's a probably sock account, Jithdominic (talk · contribs). @Randykitty: raised the issue with both accounts in late June, but naturally, no communication was forthcoming. The Jithdominic account has been inactive since July but remains unblocked.

I hate having to be here, but this is taking up a lot of time at AFD and, frankly, I would consider every single contribution this account has made as suspect. Fraudulent sourcing and reference manipulation can be challenging to detect and are in significant conflict with the project's goals. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Just noting that there may be copyvio and promotional editing concerns too. For example the article KKonnect 24x7, (correctly) deleted as A7, was a cut-n-paste of the second para here. Cannot take a deeper dive at the moment so pinging @SpacemanSpiff and Drmies: who live for such stuff. Abecedare (talk) 22:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, Spiff got me involved with that, with the promise of money. I have yet to see a dime. Why don't you ping RegentsPark? or Crisco 1492? Drmies (talk) 22:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I looked at the four AfDs. These are indeed serious concerns. I had a quick look at Unni maya ( Singer ), where two or three of the "references" do mention (yes) the person, though spelled entirely differently. At the very least there is some serious incompetence here, and this editor should not be creating articles until they a. have better command over the language and b. use reliable sources properly. I have not looked for copyvios--I assume someone here can plug this stuff into a URL and come up with some answer. Drmies (talk) 23:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I know there have been at least some copyvio issues. In addition to the one Abecedare mentions above, they got pinged by CorenSearchBot for Bol Baby Bol ( Surya Tv) and Dj Vispi back in June and July. And their image uploads are problematic. A whole bunch of uploaded images are up for deletion at Commons as is another slate of them uploaded by the other account. Commons missed this one so far; there's some chutzpah in claiming a watermarked image as own-work. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that every image they've ever uploaded is a copyright issue falsely tagged. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 23:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Add WP:COI concerns to the mix. See Draft:Jith Dominic Jose (created by one of the accounts, citing a website run by article subject) about producer of film Smrithi (edited by both reported accounts), with music by Unni maya ( Singer ) etc. And KKonnect 24x7 is also, er, connected (off-wiki evidence). User:Sanilps62's edits also need review. Abecedare (talk)
  • You mean the Sanilps62 who created Jith_Dominic_Jose? Hmm, yes, the plot thickens. Can we get CU to come by, and block a whole bunch of them at the same time? I think it's blocking time--promotion, copyright violations, incompetence, socking. Drmies (talk) 00:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• • • I think Squeamish Ossifrage has typed what I wanted to a few threads above. I've been meaning to look into this a while back when I first saw these odd articles and the associated A1/A7s but it slipped my mind after a few image deletions at Commons. I hadn't seen the copyvio bit earlier. If sockpuppetry is suspected (and I did) Commons is a better place to figure it out as there are at least a couple more more throwaway accounts with image uploads over there. I suspect this problem might have started at ml.wiki and Josu4u followed the ed from over there to here. —SpacemanSpiff 02:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Summary and update Sanilps62 is clearly related to the Jith accounts, but given the autobiographical stub Sanil ps that he created, this may be a case of meat-puppetry rather than socking. JithDominicJose04 and Jithdominic are obvious socks and the latter has been blocked by Spaceman. And there are more accounts involved eg Kreativekkonnect (talk · contribs), so CU search would definitely help. In any case, here is the list of articles created by the users that still remain:

Unless someone is willing to just IAR-delete the bunch, help needed to review the articles individually and decide if prod, AFD, speedy-deletion, redirection, merge, or clean-up are appropriate. Any objections to indeffing User:JithDominicJose04 and User:Kreativekkonnect for socking and mass COI/disruptive editing?

PS Can't review this area w/o running into promotional/paid /COI editing at every turn. Example, see Ivanshanti (talk · contribs) promoting Reelmonk; or article history of Viviya Santh. Abecedare (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• SPI filed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/JithDominicJose04. I've blocked a couple of accounts as obvious socks. There's obviously way too much COI and paid editing here, I don't see the value of replicating this discussion at COIN which is already overloaded. —SpacemanSpiff 16:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you all for realizing the truth. I reviewed the articles mentioned above and all the articles except Arun Shekhar used references as abuse (also: almost all references used are from gossip websites/paid article creating websites) and i feel there's no importance of all that articles in Wikipedia, if these Articles are not deleted from Wikipedia all visitors will surely feel that anyone can create Articles about themselves, and there's no-one in Wikipedia to remove these kinds of abuse. Hope Wikipedia admins will remove the articles except Arun Shekhar and keep the trust in Wikipedia to a higher level.Josu4u (talk) 21:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:BURO bullshit

A procedural question, really. Somebody about whom there's a thread closes it. (And does so neatly and cleanly, though without signing.) Someone else reverts this. A third editor reverts the second editor (re-closing the thread), with the comment "It doesn't fucking matter who does it." Question: Does it fucking matter who closes threads? -- Hoary (talk) 02:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Was the thread going to result in an admin using the tools? Had it played out to its conclusion? Who needs to be blocked as a direct result of the discussion therein? The thread was ended. We don't demand that rules are followed just to follow rules, where there is no future action required. Let me make it blunt. Should the named editor in that thread be blocked? If not, there's no point in keeping the thread open anymore. Nor is there any reason to have this thread, unless you want someone else blocked. Name some names and give some reasons if that is the case. --Jayron32 02:20, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

No it doesn't matter. It is unwise but very understandable to close a thread on oneself, becasue people will assume that the close is suspect, and either revert it, or waste time checking that it isn't.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC).

I agree with Rich – "self-closing" ANI threads is probably not advisable, but is acceptable in certain cases (e.g. the equivalent of a WP:SNOW close when the odds of no Admin action are near 100%, or when the OP "withdraws" the ANI complaint). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Jayron32, my intention was to spend some time checking that all the problems had been undone, and whether there were other issues, and if everything was fine, then to close it later this evening. If you wanted to close it, that's fine. But it isn't fine to close it by scolding me and cursing at me. People ought not to close threads about themselves, especially not over an objection. That's particularly true of an editor who has been asked to respect consensus and procedure. Your close didn't send a helpful message in that regard. I was shocked to see your response, so I'd prefer to say no more about it. Sarah ^(talk) 03:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• @SlimVirgin: I apologize. It was rude of me to be so gruff, and also to cut you short in what you were trying to do. I should have probably investigated more fully. I have no excuse, and you are of course, entirely correct in being upset at my rash actions. I apologize for them, and will try better next time to hold my tongue and also to be more cautious in stepping on toes. --Jayron32 16:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Back to my original, general question: I think that only Rich Farmbrough has given it a direct answer. This answer surprises me: If it's so clear that a thread can be closed, then surely somebody else can close it. Can we have this compromise: If somebody closes a thread about themself, they should at least avoid any ambiguity about who closed it. (This is as simply done as typing "~~~~".) -- Hoary (talk) 23:35, 3 September 2015 (UTC) ..... PS I missed IJBall's comment. Sorry: I blame caffeine deficiency. -- Hoary (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• FTR, if I had been asked in this case, I would have advised against Tortle closing that one down themselves. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Kalakannija's derogatory comments

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Kalakannija has made several personal attacks/disrespectful-comments over the past few months and has been warned adequately. Diffs:1, 2, 3, 4 (This is a serious vulgar attack against against the other party in discussion which states he/she should be a Norwegian slave instead being a Sri Lankan. After being warned multiple times he still continue to make personal attacks. Diff: 5. He recently broke my talk page with this edit to reply to a discussion (sparked due to this warning by me) that has been archived a long time ago. I had to revert him back and comment on his talk page instead. Initially I thought I could resolve this dispute by a talk page discussion, but I'm unable to, and I have no idea what I should do next. He also claimed that I should not participate in a discussion if my nationality is irrelevant to the topic, which is ridiculous. -- Chamith (talk) 02:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked for 31 hours for that last edit on your talk page. Drmies (talk) 03:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jakesyl

Jakesyl (talk · contribs)

• Editor for 5 years, with a few score edits, have reviewed his edits briefly, can't spot a good one.
• Regularly wipes warnings from his talk page.
• Vandalism such as this in 2012
• Today he fake-AfD'd a bivalve article, and templated a dozen editor's talk pages.

Suggest user is not here to contribute, and should be indef blocked.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC).

• You want somebody indefinitely blocked from editing because...they remove things from their talk page, which they are allowed to do, and because of an edit from three years ago, which I personally believe you falsely labeled as vandalism? As for the AfD, it seems to be the first AfD Jake has tried to open, and they may not have understood how to properly complete the process, as opposed to deliberately wanting to disrupt. Yes, they've been here over six years, but in that time they've only made 172 contributions to the site. Perhaps we should show them how things work around here, instead of trying to get them indefinitely banned from editing. Azealia911 _talk 02:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I've tried to learn, and have tried to be adopted in the past to no avail. Also would someone please tell me what was wrong with the AFD? The article is a stub on a non notable topic? Jakesyl (talk)jakesyl

Maybe I was too harsh. Lets try a fresh welcome instead. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:57, 3 September 2015 (UTC).

Except that this has happened before more than once Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

… and this is a little odd. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC).

Rich, Unfortanutely, I log on from a public computer, and will occasionally forget to log out/stay logged in for some reason. Additionally, wikipedia doesn't offer MFA Jakesyl (talk) 11:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)jakesyl

A bit early for WP:NOTHERE I think, but their talk page hardly inspires confidence. [124] [125] [126] [127]. I'm not sure if trolling or WP:COMPETENCE, but probably a bit of both. Suggest an admonition, and a warning that further behaviour of this ilk will lead blocks. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 16:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I went over this, I work a lot from public computers and will occasionally forget to log out. Someone sees a Wikipedia account with a few hundred edits and I guess they figure you're less likely to revert. I also want to mention that I think as dedicated editors you lose sight of why I have a Wikipedia account. It's not to maintain the site or be an active contributor, its so when I'm browsing the web and I see something wrong on Wikipedia I can change it and make the Wikipedia project better. What I did with the AFD would never be considered vandalism in open source software, but the mark of an inexperienced user and would be corrected. If you delete someones account every time they attempt (but fail) to make a change you'll end up with no users left. If you're really committed to building Wikipedia as a community and a reliable source of information, consider telling me what I did wrong rather than outright banning me with no explanation of why my edit was wrong. I did everything on the afd page. Additionally, I may have been "an editor" for 5 years, but I've probably spent less than an hour and a half editing. After doing some reasearch and trying to figure out what I did wrong, I looked at some of your edits to try to see how a proper deletion would go. While I was there, I came across many edits that conflict with WP:DNB. I'd hate to boomerang, but suggesting to delete a new users account after a ill-formatted AFD is wrong. We all make mistakes. Jakesyl (talk) 19:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)jakesyl

The problem with the AfD was that you didn't create the actual AfD page itself. With such a number of notifications, including Jimbo Wales it looked disruptive.

It's also worth knowing that some discussions have been had so many times that the outcome is a foregone conclusion, for AfD there are some examples at WP:OUTCOMES - in particular WP:SPECIESOUTCOMES.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:28, 4 September 2015 (UTC).

revdel request

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Could someone revdel the latest nationalist WP:NOTFORUM messages from 217.225.41.203 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) in the edit history of Talk:Germany please? Thank you. GermanJoe (talk) 07:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done Keegan (talk) 07:40, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mock RfA

A newly registered user with just 12 edits put me up on RfA. It's hard to judge whether it's just a good faith newby, or just one of the countless trolls I deal with on my talk page. In any case, I'd like the RfA page deleted. As far as action on the account is concerned, I'll leave it up to the admins though it does seem like a fake account IMO. Mar4d (talk) 07:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done deleted the page. I also suppressed some early userpage edit. Leaving the rest to another admin's judgement. Keegan (talk) 07:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt action Keegan. Mar4d (talk) 07:45, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Not actually newly registered, Mar4d; they registered on 23 August ands made a couple of edits then, that Keegan has oversighted. The user's contribs list shows the classic "back-and-forth-to-get-autoconfirmed" pattern. All edits are from today, excepting only the two from 23 August. I presume the oversight of the earlier edits prevented the autoconfirmation? But the contribs pattern itself is a bad sign: it's characteristic of a sleeper intended to be used for vandalism at semi'd pages. Or alternatively, in this case, to be used for creating Mar4d's RFA (I'm not sure if you need to be autoconfirmed to create an RFA, but it does involve creating a page). Altogether, it doesn't look good, and I'm pretty sure this is a troll amusing themselves. Please note, AGF-warriors, and feel free to execrate me below.

Keegan, I presume you had a reason for oversighting those early edits. Abuse or merely self-outing? Anyway, it might be interesting to watch for when they actually become autoconfirmed, on 7 Sept 06:54 UTC. Not a very good time in my timezone, so perhaps another admin or two would like to keep an eye out as well. Bishonen | talk 15:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC).

Can these pointless TP nil-edits be redacted too? That way the user will go back to zero count, and will at least have to make sensible edits to become auto-c. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 15:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure, but I don't think deleting edits effects autoconfirm. Even if it did that is not what revdel is for. Chillum 15:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

My logic, a) If they know how to bypass autoconfirm and how to file an RfA then this is not their first account, b) From WP:SOCK: "Editing project space: Undisclosed alternative accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project.", like creating an RfA. This seems like an inappropriate use of an alternate account to me. Chillum 16:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Mass deletion request / Can anybody speak Hebrew?

LizT800 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has uploaded several images from http://www.rabbikohane.org with the claim that Kohane has released them into the public domain. I doubt this for several reasons:

• The files are of varying age. This makes me suspicious that the webmaster does not own the rights.
• At the bottom of the gallery pages which are given as sources, there is a notice which, according to Google Translate, says "(c) All Rights Reserved".
• Several files are photos of people's writings and so derivative works.

I nominated one for speedy deletion but then thought it would be better to post here to get a unified response an in case any Hebrew-speakers could bring to light anything relevant on the site.

To be clear, I think these should be presumed copyvios and deleted. Thanks, BethNaught (talk) 11:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Meir Kahane (listed as the author) was assassinated in 1990, so unless she's got a good medium, it would be interesting to know how he managed to give permission to release them into the public domain. However, as he is in most of the photos, I don't think he is the actual author. You are correct about the translation of the copyright though. Number 57 12:40, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Number 57. Pinging Diannaa because she has just tagged them for F11. Does this information make you think they should be F9? BethNaught (talk) 14:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

(ec) These images all qualify for deletion under criterion WP:F11 (no evidence of permission). There's a source and a license, but no proof that the images are released under the license provided. F9 is not the correct criterion in this instance. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Even where Kahane is patently not the author? BethNaught (talk) 14:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

It is obviously against copyright, just delete it. The terrifying Scourge of Trumpton 14:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@BethNaught: That's the way I have been interpreting the criteria. Off to work now, ttyl. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:33, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1874–1878)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Why is a religion listed in Marie's infobox?

A four year old toddler who cannot tell time or tie her own shoes is not old enough to have a religion. Paul Austin (talk) 14:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is an issue the admins should handle, as this is discussing content on a page. I did see you posed a question on the Talk Page of the article, which I would say is the right place to bring this up. Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jackson5Dr - Attack account

Jackson5Dr is an attack-only SPA account. Since August 31, s/he's been edit warring at Direct Action Everywhere in an attempt to insert this controversy section which is mostly unsourced and sourced with non-reliable sources where it is sourced. Today in this edit he replaced a good photo of a protest by that group with a photo of an individual which he posted at Commons using the title, "Wayne Hsiung Cult Leader.jpg" only to replace it a few minutes later with a photo-manipulated copy of that same photo entitled "Cult Leader Wayne Hsiung.JPG" in which the caption on the sign being held by the person in the photo has been changed to something which is a BLP violation. When that was reverted with a edit caption referring to BLP, Jackson5Dr immediately reverted it back in. User is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Though not at English Wikipedia, you might also want to take into account for purposes of determining motive for being here this edit at Commons, where the image description for the photo which was in use before s/he changed it as described above was changed by Jackson5Dr from "Direct Action Everywhere activists march outside a Whole Foods Market in San Francisco, carrying a colorful banner and signs." to "Direct Action Everywhere wishing for sexual assault and abuse of Whole Foods shoppers and young activists." — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the acct and deleted some stuff, and an oversighter is working through their contribs right now as we speak. Thanks for reporting. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Diannaa. Just for the record, I've also made this report at Commons AN. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Request block of 141.239.155.158

The contributions speak for themselves, really.

• 141.239.155.158 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Idiopathic environmental intolerances (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Edit warring to include copy-pasted conspiracy theorizing and egregious BLP violations, with a generous portion of vicious personal attacks in his edit summaries. Would place the block myself, but I reverted him yesterday and it will save some nuisance unblock requests if someone else does it. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:24, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked 31 hours for egregious personal attack. --Randykitty (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks. Semi-protection of the article might be required, too, but we'll see. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Deflategate

Hello, can someone take a look at Deflategate? It appears that there are people vandalizing the page. It just got reverted again but he's been fairly persistant. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deflategate&oldid=679306770

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deflategate&type=revision&diff=679305314&oldid=679304787

Some kind of troll I think. the profile is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/24.218.237.3

Swordman97 ^{talk to me} 19:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Actually, looking at his history it's almost [128] entirely composed of vandalism to football articles. Swordman97 ^{talk to me} 19:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for approximately the same duration as it has been used to vandalise articles.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 20:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Hounding by User:‎Pluto2012

‎Pluto2012 has been hounding me for some time now. I have asked him to stop stalking me but he continued to follow me and revert good edits. I list only reverts on pages he had never edited before.

1. Susya, Har Hebron‎ - Removing material under bogus claim while deletion dicussion was taking place in which he voted 'delete'.
2. 2006 Jerusalem gay pride parade - This article was merged with Jerusalem gay pride parade after swift discussion. Pluto reverted claiming "no such discussion on the talk page" only to reply to it later (and not revert). I have followed protocol for a merge, to which Pluto didn't bother comment, and then finally made the merge.
3. Yaakov Havakook - His edits were decent but one in which he claim 'Category:Israeli anthropologists' is only for scholars though Havakook is mentioned by many sources as an anthropologist. I am not sure about this but the hounding is clear.
4. Anarchists Against the Wall - Deleted text b/c I mistaken page 83 to 82. Good edit. Still hounding.
5. Ta'ayush - Like the above.
6. At-Tuwani - Deleted two RS. The first is an Israeli encyclopedia used 41 times on wikipedia. The second was essentially copied from Susya and the source was discussed here.

I asked him to self-revert but upon playing games and repeated refusal I am asking for this discussion for his practice of hounding me as well as unjustified reverts. Settleman (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Just one comment: that "Ariel Encyclopedia" is used 41 places on Wikipedia, is absolutely no argument in favour of it being WP:RS: I have several times removed fake sources (like palestinefacts.org), used here many more times. However, I´m not familiar with "Ariel Encyclopedia": does it have anything to do with the Israeli Ariel-settlement on the West Bank? Huldra (talk) 21:16, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: No, it's nothing to do with the settlement. The encyclopedia was written by Zev Vilnay, a renowned geographer and Israel Prize winner. The first volume was published in 1969, almost a decade before the settlement was founded. There is an article on the he.wiki about it if you would like to read further. It is almost certainly a RS given its author's credentials and the fact that it was published by Am Oved. Number 57 22:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss this but this is not wp:rs. According to its article, Am Oved was created by Histadrut "with a goal of publishing books that would "meet the spiritual needs of the working public" and according to his article, Zev Vilany was not a "reknown geographer" but a "a military topographer in the Haganah, and later in the Israel Defense Forces". I don't know that man but having in mind his personal encyclopedia (in 10 vol. indeed) was published after '67, has the name of the main Israeli settlement of West Bank at the time, and published books titled "Legends of Judea and Samaria", "Sinai, Avar Vehoveh", "Golan Vehermon" he may have some ideas in mind...Pluto2012 (talk) 22:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Ariel was established in 1978; the first volume was published in 1969, so Ariel was clearly not "the main Israeli settlement of West Bank at the time". In addition, your pooh-poohing of Am Oved suggests a distinct ignorance about the subject (for instance, it published Correcting a Mistake: Jews and Arabs in Palestine/Israel, 1936-1956 and several Amos Oz books). Number 57 22:47, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

You are right. There is no link with the settlement.
Regarding Am Oved reliability at the time (a Publishing house evolves as society. The left at the Birth of Israel was not the left at the time of Morris and Oz and is not the left today), as well as Zev Vilany reliability, that requires more study and I don't know that man. His background doesn't talk for him, not at all. But he can be found in numerous bibliographies. I would have expected to find references of his "books" in academic publications but could not. He is also notorious, without doubt Pluto2012 (talk) 23:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't "hound" Settleman. I am one of the many contributors who see what he does. For some points I have supported his mind (eg here) but for many I am opposed.

Settleman is frustrated because the reliability of the sources that he uses is questionned as here or here for Arutz 7, because he has no answer to provide and because nobody supports his points.

He created the article about "Mr" Havakook on 10 August after he found a source with him and because he wanted to use it, thinking that would create notoriety for him. But he doesn't know anything on the topic or that man and has never had a book of this man in hand or studied what he could have said. He just "needs" him.

Same for Ariel Encyclopedia. He has just discovered this and doesn't want to know what it is but just wants to use an information from there because it does interest him to push a point on an article. And that's it.

He is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia but to explain to the world that the Israeli settlers claims on Susiya are legitimate. No more, no less.

The issue for me to manage him is that he really looks really good faith but just doesn't understand. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:01, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

What's said above is a good example of inappropriate stalking: regardless of the "good" or "bad" in your edits, if you're editing to stalk another user, you don't belong here. Blocked for 48 hours with a reminder that recidivism will result in longer blocks. Nyttend (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Cause-of-death vandal -- rangeblock him?

The Cause-of-death vandal just got blocked for a week, but this guy doesn't respect any of our blocks. Can we rangeblock him to make it more difficult for him to disrupt the project? The IPs 86.174.160.xx to 86.174.162.xx are often involved, along with other very different IPs in the same geographic area. Binksternet (talk) 21:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

If you give me a range to block, I'll do it, but I don't trust myself to select the right range in the first place. Best format is to give me a link to Special:Block/replacethesewordswiththerangetoblock. Nyttend (talk) 00:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Pgbrux

Pgbrux (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Atacama skeleton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Steven M. Greer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Pgbrux is a single purpose account, used for no other purpose than the promotion of a fringe POV regarding extraterrestrials in regard to our article on the Atacama skeleton, and to the related Steven M. Greer biography. As our article makes clear, the skeleton has unequivocally been demonstrated to be human, by DNA evidence. Pgbrux has however repeatedly edited the articles to refer to the skeleton as 'humanoid', and to otherwise promote the discredited 'extraterrestrial' hypothesis. Despite repeated requests to engage in discussion, and despite repeated warnings over edit-warring (see User talk:Pgbrux) the contributor has refused to do anything but restore the fringe material - frequently using entirely bogus edit summaries. (see e.g. [129][130]) Given that Pgbrux seems to have made no useful contributions to Wikipedia, and instead seems to think that relentless promotion of fringe material is an appropriate way to behave, I would have to suggest that an indefinite block per WP:NOTHERE would be the best course of action. It has been suggested that Pgbrux may possibly be a sock of User:Schladd and/or (blocked) User:Stickleback987, given the similarities in edit history, but frankly I don't think a SPI is necessary - sock or not, we can do without this sort of 'contributor'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Diffs on Pbrux' talk made in preparation for an ANEW report. --Ronz (talk) 00:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Note: even after being notified of this ANI report [131], Pgbrux has continued to add the disputed material. [132] Evidently nothing but a block is going to have any effect whatsoever. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing at Talk:History of Japan

Despite warnings to stop [133][134][135], User:Signedzzz continues to add and re-add an unsigned and unhelpful message to an already bitter talk page discussion at Talk:History of Japan.[136][137][138]

Before this I'd already already declared I'm giving up copyediting the article as there are too many serious problems and—more frustratingly—too many editors who are unwilling to work in good faith on improving the problems—rather, they'd rather attack me when I even bring them up. Discussion and cooperation are impossible, and this hostility will clearly continue without me. Signedzzz isn't the only problem, but the editwarring to keep a message designed to bait and avoid working toward article improvement is a concrete issue that needs to be dealt with. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Replied to "warning" on my talk page. This is ludicrous. zzz (talk) 03:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Am I mistaken, or is the subject of an ANI report allowed to delete his name from the report heading? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:57, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Request move to temporarily block user Ritsaiph for personal attacks

Hello Wiki admins, am I coming to the right place? I hereby wish to make a request to you all to take action against User:Ritsaiph for making threats, personal attacks, insults, harassment, and using derogatory language against other users while discussing on a thread.

The case issue can be read at here. This user, who has never made any single contribution to this template, came onto the thread went on whacking another user rudely, who has been contributing to this template for many months, out of sudden just because consensus has reached a deadlock. I hope the Wiki admins consider looking into this manner properly and take further appropriate action against him. We only want to continue our civil discussions but he had to keep attacking and issue threats somehow. Thank you. Myronbeg (talk) 04:11, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

User:CombatMarshmallow

This user seems to exist solely to propagate discussion of the band Hogan's Heroes on wikipedia as a pioneer of various metal genres, despite not having any reliable sources that solidify this claim, and perhaps even their notability. He/she has inserted discussion of this band where it is not necessarily warranted, including top-level articles such as Heavy metal music, Metalcore, and likely others utilizing sources such as fanzines, fanmade content, that apparently label this band as a pioneer. This is not a huge problem, though, although they likely should not be discussed as pioneers on top level articles if their sources are unreliable in determining pioneer status. I'm also curious as to whether the band in question's main article has any truly reliable sources.

Moreover, after insertion of this band into the article Heavy Metal Music, the member has approached WP:OWN levels of reverting and preventing content additions to the article, consistently refuting any and all proposals to add content to the article on the article's talk page, acting passive aggressively and occasionally making personal attacks to those who disagree with his/her views. He/she has consistently reverted any disputation to the fact the band is not labelled by reliable sources as a pioneer to the respective genres.

The main reason I am posting about this is because I am a bit fed up with the consistent passive aggressive talk page behaviour and WP:OWN editing style on a very important article. It's been discussed and requested to stop, but even that was left with a similar response. Multiple users have complained on the talk page.

Unreliably sourced additions

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&curid=13869&diff=679369038&oldid=679367996

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Metalcore&diff=prev&oldid=494506007

See contributions and the respective focus specifically on Hogan's Heroes

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/CombatMarshmallow&dir=prev&limit=500&target=CombatMarshmallow

Inflammatory and WP:OWN-style talkpage edits on Heavy metal music

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHeavy_metal_music&type=revision&diff=679364254&oldid=679353627

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHeavy_metal_music&type=revision&diff=679219970&oldid=679214323

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHeavy_metal_music&type=revision&diff=678356808&oldid=678356203

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHeavy_metal_music&type=revision&diff=678328731&oldid=678326495

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHeavy_metal_music&type=revision&diff=678321572&oldid=678313764

Consistent removal of any new content to the page, referring users that wish to add content to the talk page and thus berating them upon disagreement (more than i've ever seen in 2 years of watching this article at FA status)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&action=history

Vortiene (talk) 04:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)