Talk:GrapheneOS
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A fact from GrapheneOS appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 January 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
- ... that GrapheneOS (logo pictured) is a free and open-source operating system for selected Google Pixel smartphones, which was recommended by Edward Snowden? Source: "GrapheneOS is an AOSP (Android Open Source Project)", "GrapheneOS can only be installed on certain smartphones from the Google Pixel range." "There is recognition on Twitter by Edward Snowden : "If I configured a smartphone today, I would use GrapheneOS from Daniel Micay as the basic operating system."" [1]
- Comment: Quotes for the hook are translations from German
Created by Yae4 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC).
- Moved to mainspace on 16 December and nominated straight away. Article is long enough, stable, well written and referenced. Earwig's tool doesn't show any problems (many of the key sources are in German, so close paraphrasing is difficult to detect automatically, but a spotcheck shows no problems; AGF on Hungarian/Czech/Turkish sources). Hook is long enough, referenced, and certainly catchy. Image is used in the article, appropriate, and correctly licensed. Article author has no prior DYK noms, so no QPQ is required. In conclusion, good to go. Constantine ✍ 20:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
History, transition from CopperheadOS with "Android Hardening", to GrapheneOS
On the history, the article currently seems misleading, and not consistent with the better source (golem.de). If I understand correctly, Micay was working on "Android Hardening" as part of CopperheadOS. The renaming from "Android Hardening" to "GrapheneOS" was about a year after "the incident", if that refers to the firing of Micay in June 2018, yes, but "Android Hardening" was also part of CopperheadOS, which Micay also worked on.
- In June 2018 the Android Hardening repo "platform_packages_apps_Updater" description said "Automatic background updater for CopperheadOS." (archive link above) This indicates Android Hardening was originally being developed as part of CopperheadOS. By November 2018 it may have been splitting off, but this is not entirely clear.
- As of March 2019 it was still called "Android Hardening". [2]
- In May 2019 it "Android Hardening" was being renamed to GrapheneOS.[3]
- Secondary source golem.de says (translated), "The main developer Daniel Micay wants to continue the development of Copperhead OS as well as the Android Hardening project with GrapheneOS." and "Micay is no stranger to the company; he was co-founder of Copperhead, the company behind the hardened Android system of the same name, as well as its lead developer. In mid-2018, the two founders defected. Then, in April 2019, Micay announced GrapheneOS as the true successor to Copperhead OS, which would functionally inherit it." I interpret "defected" as more like "separated", and these statements are saying Micay is moving from CopperheadOS with "Android Hardening" included, to GrapheneOS with "Android Hardening" included.
- "to better reflect what the project has become" is strange language which seems to have a advertising flavor, not neutral wiki-language.
Therefore, I support removing coverage of "Android Hardening" and including statement on transition from CopperheadOS to GrapheneOS more consistent with the golem.de source. I would also support simply removing the Packtpub source, if it wasn't needed to support notability of the article. -- Yae4 (talk) 11:21, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Removing the coverage misrepresented what the sources say, so I reverted this. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 15:25, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Your statement is false, but thanks for the response (after 6 months). WP:DUE says we must "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Your edits are cherry picking a LOT from one reliable source (golem), and one unreliable blog post (Packt) to present - in wiki voice - Micay's version of the history. I simplified the "transition" statement because including more detail gives undue weight to ONE source. Also, too fine details are irrelevant to most readers (i.e. non-encyclopedic), IMO. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:48, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I also noticed the Android Hardening rebranding to GrapheneOS was already also supported by a Pro-Linux reference in the article, so I added that reference before the Packt reference as a secondary supporting citation. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 18:28, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- And it's in the Yugatech citation too:
The former lead developer of the CopperheadOS that had a fall-out last year, Daniel Micay, developed his own open-source project called Android Hardening Project which was later renamed to the GrapheneOS.
84.250.14.116 (talk) 18:36, 23 June 2022 (UTC)- Also in Svět mobilně and Origo sources, so quite well established in third-party sources. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 18:44, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yugatech is another poor source that just regurgitates Micay tweets, and should be deleted. Yes, mea culpa for ever including it. I'll have to re-look at the others. See above for more on WP:DUE. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:45, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I proposed the YugaTech article for deletion. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 19:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Probably a time to remove this YugaTech source, hard to verify anything from it but the existence of a single Tweet. No editorial policy I could find. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 20:16, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- Glad you finally see reason and agree. Now please look more closely at Talk:GrapheneOS/Archive 2#Origo.hu_source_deletion. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- Probably a time to remove this YugaTech source, hard to verify anything from it but the existence of a single Tweet. No editorial policy I could find. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 20:16, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
- I proposed the YugaTech article for deletion. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 19:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- And it's in the Yugatech citation too:
- The latest Android Police citation from a week ago goes even further to claim:
Founded in 2014 as CopperheadOS, the privacy-focused operating system was briefly known as the Android Hardening project in 2018, before officially becoming GrapheneOS.
84.250.14.116 (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2022 (UTC)- The Android Police article here at enwiki has had its article deleted and drafts abandoned multiple times for an apparent lack of notability. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- It seems to be connected to MakeUseOf.com (the same publisher, Valnet Inc.). User:Newslinger said MUO to be "marginally reliable". (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 326#Should MakeUseOf.com be considered a reliable source?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MakeUseOf. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- My understanding: Notability of an article about a source is independent of that source's reliability as a source. In other words an obscure publication on ROMs could be little known, but have a reputation of reliability as a source. Repeating: Android Police seems OK but marginal to me; MakeUseOf.com seemed less reliable. Also, any source that basically repeats tweets without any critical analysis or independent thought should be binned. -- Yae4 (talk) 11:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- After looking at previous Reliable Source Noticeboard discussions of Valnet properties, which includes Android Police, I now feel Android Police is not even marginally OK, and I was mistaken to add the material from that source. Thus, I will be deleting them. -- Yae4 (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MakeUseOf. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- It seems to be connected to MakeUseOf.com (the same publisher, Valnet Inc.). User:Newslinger said MUO to be "marginally reliable". (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 326#Should MakeUseOf.com be considered a reliable source?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Android Police article here at enwiki has had its article deleted and drafts abandoned multiple times for an apparent lack of notability. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Rewrite of the Features section
I have rewritten the Features section to provide a more comprehensive and detailed list of security features rather than focus just on the sandboxed Google Play Services: and as it's a substantial enough change, I figured it would be best to let the talk page know.
I don't forsee there being any problems, however, a variety of sources like listing and going over individual security changes (which makes finding good citations much easier).
There are one or two features (sensors permission and scoped storage access) that I could not find any news outlets mentioning. I have just linked to the official GrapheneOS website for those. 75.172.38.252 (talk) 21:05, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- "Good" citations is a whole "thing." Thanks for the rewrite. I've changed it some. See above for discussion of why Android Police was previously removed as being unreliable. -- Yae4 (talk) 07:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Now
{{Prose|section}}
. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 09:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)- Possibly also
{{Excessive examples|section}}
, but I've not tagged this. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 10:17, 25 July 2022 (UTC) - 84.250.14.116: For a "Features" section: is prose all that desireable? Not all that much necessarily needs to be said about each change: which I think fits a bullet point list well.
- I don't think it was Excessive Examples (it certainly isn't now in the current state, after review + cleanup): my impression is that example cruft applies to examples of a concept (for explaining). The Features section isn't trying to say "GrapheneOS has features, this is why", it's trying to give an overview of all the features in GrapheneOS. 71.212.97.112 (talk) 09:24, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's to nudge contextualization and explain the significance of listed features, for Wikipedia:Notability. I would make comparisons to Debian#Features (GA-class article) and revision 1099482303 of this article. I agree the list itself should no longer as excessive as it was before after the cleanup and peer review, but prose is preferable for an encyclopedia (when expanding on what a feature is, and how it's different). 84.250.14.116 (talk) 21:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Possibly also
- See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 379#Jonathan Lamont's review at MobileSyrup and the previous discussion #Jonathan Lamont's review at MobileSyrup on this talk page. These recent edits expanded referencing the biased MobileSyrup citations beyond the reception section, now in the features section (but perfection is not required and even biased sources may be reliable in context). Should those citations be referenced in the "Features" section? 84.250.14.116 (talk) 10:01, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion, may be marginally reliable in this context with in-text attribution (according to Jonathan Lamont of MobileSyrup in July 2022), matches what the GrapheneOS official website says about itself. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 10:26, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
"Peer" review among IP editor(s)
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Peer review
I'll keep this updated as I find more concerns. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 16:57, 25 July 2022 (UTC); updated 18:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC); updated 19:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
84.250.14.116 (talk) 10:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
84.250.14.116 (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC); edited 12:34, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
I've now removed a lot of example cruft which was given undue attention, lacking coverage in independent sources: Special:Diff/1101751029. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 17:05, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
The latest restore/revision with new sources: "LTE-only" mode appears mentioned in the newly cited Oficina da Net source,[13] however I refrain to comment at this time whether it warrants a mention in the article at this time or not. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 21:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC) References
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Vice Motherboard source on ANOM involvement
Special:Diff/1102150367 by EndariV removed a citation. Special:Diff/1102151664 restored it. ANOM#Distribution_and_usage cites the same source with different summary. Feel free to discuss how to include and word the summary. Ignoring it is not a reasonable option. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Rewritten.
Special:Diff/1102210134Special:Diff/1102206950/1102213400 84.250.14.116 (talk) 23:01, 3 August 2022 (UTC); 23:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)- I will lastly ask: Should the following be part of the section, or is it
{{Editorializing}}
because there is no source to support the statement unambiguously?Phones with GrapheneOS or a fork of GrapheneOS may have been involved in the ANOM FBI honeypot sting operation.
84.250.14.116 (talk) 23:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC) - Another rewrite was required in response to Special:Diff/1102224906 by User:Yae4: Special:Diff/1102224906/1102231750. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 01:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- And let me say, I don't prefer the second rewrite I authored because it uses closer paraphrasing, which risks running into Wikipedia:Copyright violations issues. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 01:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Rewritten to resolve your concerns about your re-write. -- Yae4 (talk) 06:35, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- I merged it into the main history section and rewrote it partially to add a little more context about what the ANOM sting was. 98.97.36.93 (talk) 07:47, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree and reverted. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- There's not much to disagree with, the ANOM sting factually was done through cell phones distributed with an FBI-controlled messaging app. Can you elaborate? 98.97.36.93 (talk) 19:47, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- 84.x and I had converged to a mutually acceptable format and presentation, and you changed it entirely, without explanation or consensus. -- Yae4 (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also okay-ish with the current revision 1102582741 text, though both Yae4 and 98.'s revision risks of editorializing sources. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 20:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I would prefer to make a short expansion for a due weight opinion: GrapheneOS developer Daniel Micay denied the claims., or similar. (Copyedit required.) 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:24, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Not addressed at all in this big, burdensome copyedit/undo by User:Yae4: Special:Diff/1102771432. This also introduced the same incorrect information to the article for the fourth time about devices in question (Pixel 3a and Pixel 4a said in sources, not 3 or 4), which had been previously corrected three times. By definition, wikt:controversy also means
A debate or discussion of opposing opinions
, since this moved it from the "History" section to "Controversies" without giving any weight for the opposing opinion. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 23:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)- You overlook facts such as in Special:Diff/1102771432 it said: "According to Joseph Cox of Vice Motherboard in July 2021, Pixel 3 or Pixel 4 series phones". IMO "series" is more than accurate enough for encyclopedic entries such as this. Actually "Pixel phones" should be sufficient. -- Yae4 (talk) 01:23, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- Not addressed at all in this big, burdensome copyedit/undo by User:Yae4: Special:Diff/1102771432. This also introduced the same incorrect information to the article for the fourth time about devices in question (Pixel 3a and Pixel 4a said in sources, not 3 or 4), which had been previously corrected three times. By definition, wikt:controversy also means
- I would prefer to make a short expansion for a due weight opinion: GrapheneOS developer Daniel Micay denied the claims., or similar. (Copyedit required.) 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:24, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also okay-ish with the current revision 1102582741 text, though both Yae4 and 98.'s revision risks of editorializing sources. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 20:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- 84.x and I had converged to a mutually acceptable format and presentation, and you changed it entirely, without explanation or consensus. -- Yae4 (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- There's not much to disagree with, the ANOM sting factually was done through cell phones distributed with an FBI-controlled messaging app. Can you elaborate? 98.97.36.93 (talk) 19:47, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry to say, the context of what ANOM sting was has been lost in editorial process. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 12:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- I disagree and reverted. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- I merged it into the main history section and rewrote it partially to add a little more context about what the ANOM sting was. 98.97.36.93 (talk) 07:47, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
- Rewritten to resolve your concerns about your re-write. -- Yae4 (talk) 06:35, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- And let me say, I don't prefer the second rewrite I authored because it uses closer paraphrasing, which risks running into Wikipedia:Copyright violations issues. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 01:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- I will lastly ask: Should the following be part of the section, or is it
I agree with 76.135.154.252, this paragraph is not a security incident for GrapheneOS, I've read the article and don't see how it should be here. I've reverted. Omilc (talk) 17:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- In the source provided it's clear that the developer is speculating the reasoning behind rumors he heard. It is baffling to me to use that as any sort of evidence or source to tie these two systems together, let alone suggest it as an security incident. It seems its been re-re-re-re-reverted by Yae4, and protected as others have reached the same conclusion... 76.135.154.252 (talk) 00:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Yae4 is reverting disputes from multiple editors and leaving nothing except "Restore more impartial, consensus-based version" dispute multiple people disagreeing. Omilc (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- I believe the "consensus" he is referring to is between him and 84.250.14.116, I would be interested to hear 84.x's opinion on this as they have previously mentioned the ambiguity of the source. I could agree with 174.233.17.107's edit (Special:Diff/1120050486) of moving it to history as it's not a security incident. But given how weak the source is on this topic if you actually read it and the amount of people who seem to agree, I still think removal is the better option. 76.135.154.252 (talk) 11:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles report what independent sources say. If those independent sources had a published consensus that the earth is flat, then Wikipedia would also say so. The press can lie and omit details to drive an agenda and get away with it, Wikipedians don't editorialize their beliefs on the subject into articles to make it right or sound favorable. Trying to change consensus on Wikipedia is often a fool's errand; Wikipedia is not controlled by its editors, it's controlled by the media, and the media controls the narratives to the general public in their cone/sphere of influence (culture and language). You may explore Wikipedia's sister language sites in different languages and find encyclopedic articles with wildly different encyclopedic narratives on the same subject. Likewise, the media doesn't often report on multiple critical vulnerabilities found in Android; the Dirty Pipe exploit is just one example of several critical vulnerabilities disclosed, but because it was reported in independent sources, Wikipedia does too (without weight on other critical vulnerabilities the press didn't pick up on). Hopefully this drives a point forward on what Wikipedia includes (and what it doesn't). Because these opinions were published in an independent source, they may merit some encyclopedic significance, and should be included in the article. Thus, in reply to 76.135.154.252: I disagree with the removal of this text from the article.
- On that note about the body text of revision 1120387542 § ANOM sting operation seems like an accurate representation or summarization of the Vice source, without omitting details or reading between lines to come to a different conclusion. I feel like the Vice source is first and foremost about Anom phones with ArcaneOS; secondarily it's about encrypted phones like Encrochat, Phantom Secure, rumors of operating on GrapheneOS and opinions of Micay on what Anom phones are operating on or advertised to have, and this feels like to me to be unambiguous. I feel like the only part where the Vice source could be ambiguous is that Micay's quoted opinions do not explicitly refer the names of these (former three) companies or advertisers specifically. However, I have no no doubt to the authenticity of this Vice source, and the source should stay.
- The next question is how the section should be titled. The Vice source cited does not explicitly call the subject matter as an "incident" or "controversy", but I imagine – by Wiktionary definitions – the Vice source to cover a news story about the ANOM incident in general, and a debate or discussion of opinion about their relation to GrapheneOS with Micay, where Micay has been given a voice for an opposing opinion. I support retitling the section as one of the following:
- ANOM incident or ANOM sting operation;
- Controversies; or
- Relations to ANOM, Encrochat and Phantom Secure.
- In my opinion these are the most neutral representations for the article. I feel like calling it a "security incident" is a bit far of imagination. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 05:18, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- I can also propose the following paragraph as a replacement, which the editors concerned may find more acceptable or consensus-like:
According to Joseph Cox writing for Vice Motherboard in July 2021, an analysis of an Anom phone (advertised in the ANOM FBI honeypot, sting operation) and an investigation of forum posts online by Motherboard found Anom phones display a boot logo for an operating system named ArcaneOS. Daniel Micay reportedly received photos of a Pixel 3a phone with Anom software, which he shared with Motherboard. Micay reportedly heard claims Anom used GrapheneOS and speculated "it sounds like" Anom may have been advertised to use GrapheneOS, but claimed "it has no basis." Motherboard also reported encrypted phone firms such as EncroChat and Phantom Secure used by organized criminals in the past offered devices similar to an Anom device; in another quote Micay also said, "[it] sounds like people have heard of GrapheneOS so these companies either use it" [GrapheneOS or a fork] "in some way or just claim they did when they didn't."[1]
- This removes editorializing and non-evidential statements, while trying to remain impartial to statements represented in the source. This proposal still ties the Anom phones to the FBI operation, and Anom's relation to GrapheneOS. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 06:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Alleged relations to ANOM, Encrochat and Phantom Secure or something along those lines is also fine. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 06:54, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- "Independent, reliable" sources are allowed to editorialize, and that can be summarized in the article, as it has been. Re: Security incident, count how many times "secur" is found in the source. Then the source includes, Micay said. "Quite amusing security theater." I object to any more changes to the section unless truly uninvolved editors say otherwise. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- If I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that because "secur" exists in the source that's why this paragraph specifically should be labeled as a security incident for GraphineOS? If that's what we are going by then the "incident" involving Copperhead Limited should be moved from History to Security incidents as the sources use the German word "sicher" a lot. The word secure is inherently tied to GraphineOS as it's security-focused, you would be hard pressed to find an article about it that doesn't include that word. I'm confused how this constitutes a security incident such as the dirty pipe exploit when its obviously closer to an allegation or controversy. 76.135.154.252 (talk) 12:12, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've read the Vice article (again), and the source's statement about security theater seem seem to be quotes from Micay aimed at Anom / ArcaneOS' calculator application. I see Vice discusses two things: Security incidents of Anom; and a controversy of (unsubstantial) alleged relations of Anom (and ArcaneOS) to GrapheneOS. These two subjects are distinct. I agree with the opinions of User:Omilc, 76.135.154.252, 174.233.17.107 and 2603:7080:a903:f154::/64 that this is not a GrapheneOS security incident (for this article). 98.97.36.93 kept it in the history section. Also important: Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation, rumors, or presumptions. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 23:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Obviously I'm new to editing on Wikipedia, so I appreciate that explanation. If that is how Wikipedia operates, removing that section shouldn't be the right course of action, yet I think it still needs to be improved.
- My original gripe with the section was its placement under Security incidents. By retitling, are you suggesting moving it under one of the names proposed? If so, then I very much agree. It could probably be shortened to "Alleged relations to ANOM" as Micay is directly referring to Anom here "Micay said others claimed that Anom used GrapheneOS itself". But as he uses the phrase "these companies" later, is that enough to assume the other two are a part of the claims he heard?
- As for rewriting it, your version is easier to read with its greater use of parentheses and brackets. The slight change to some of the sentences makes it more objectively convey what is actually in the source. I didn't take issue with how the original paragraph was written per-se, but looking at it now, this version is an improvement and should be used. 76.135.154.252 (talk) 09:49, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- "Independent, reliable" sources are allowed to editorialize, and that can be summarized in the article, as it has been. Re: Security incident, count how many times "secur" is found in the source. Then the source includes, Micay said. "Quite amusing security theater." I object to any more changes to the section unless truly uninvolved editors say otherwise. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:10, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- I believe the "consensus" he is referring to is between him and 84.250.14.116, I would be interested to hear 84.x's opinion on this as they have previously mentioned the ambiguity of the source. I could agree with 174.233.17.107's edit (Special:Diff/1120050486) of moving it to history as it's not a security incident. But given how weak the source is on this topic if you actually read it and the amount of people who seem to agree, I still think removal is the better option. 76.135.154.252 (talk) 11:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Yae4 is reverting disputes from multiple editors and leaving nothing except "Restore more impartial, consensus-based version" dispute multiple people disagreeing. Omilc (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Cox, Joseph (8 July 2021). "We Got the Phone the FBI Secretly Sold to Criminals". VICE. Retrieved 3 August 2022.
"Pixel 3 or Pixel 4 series"
I disapprove the article's statement "Pixel 3 or Pixel 4 series", while the reference speaks of Pixel 3a and Pixel 4a devices. Although self-referencing Wikipedia is unreliable, they are all the same series (Google Pixel; compare to the previous lineup, Google Nexus). For models, Pixel 4 and Pixel 4 XL were marketed and released at the same time, but Pixel 4a was marketed / first released distinctively a year later. I agree with "Pixel phones" or "Pixel 3a or Pixel 4a phones". To be even more precise, there is no context in source which devices may have been advertised with GrapheneOS with Anom messaging, but it could be fair to assume and say "devices" or "phones" without a specifier. Special:Permalink/1102242945, with its caveats, made no assumptions about the device type or context for statements about GrapheneOS. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 09:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC); edited 12:12, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- Disapprove all you wish. Looks like we agree on "Pixel phones". I disapprove of removing the section entirely, which was recently done. Will be restoring an older version shortly. -- Yae4 (talk) 17:38, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Based on this Vice Motherboard source, I can only agree
"Pixel phones""Pixel 3a or Pixel 4a phones" were loaded with Anom software. This is aside from reading Micay's opinion Anom may have advertised to use GrapheneOS. I cannot determine from such (possibly non-factual) opinion, without more context, which specific Anom devices (if any) were involved and I should not synthesize those to have been Pixel devices. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 11:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC); edited 12:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)- Ugh, after many edits, intent-based writing is still difficult. I should disagree with "Pixel phones" and agree "Pixel 3a or Pixel 4a phones" were loaded with Anom software based on this source. My intent is to message the difference between the Google Pixel series and Pixel (1st generation). Anyway, in current revision Special:Permalink/1105130982, this is a non-issue. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 12:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- Based on this Vice Motherboard source, I can only agree
why is the second paragraph in the history section considered promotional?
in my perspective the second paragraph doesnt contain anything from Wikipedia:PROMOTION, please offer a precise explanation to why its promotional so i can resolve it, thanks Omilc (talk) 04:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- i've removed what i feel might be like an advert, if there are no objections, ill remove the advert issue banner Omilc (talk) 02:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- I object. Some editors continue selectively using often poor sources to "support" what they want the article to say, which is mirroring what GrapheneOS website says. The article should neutrally summarize and balance what independent, reliable sources say, and selectively use primary sources when they meet criteria. It is not neutral to selectively include only self-serving, primary-source "virtues" while ignoring other relevant primary-source info, such as "don't use our source" statments. See 4 and 5 at your link, and tell me how this article is not exactly those. Same for WP:NOTMIRROR section at the same page. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:29, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- im not sure what you are talking about, what do you mean by "see 4 and 5 at your link"? Omilc (talk) 02:12, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
- I object. Some editors continue selectively using often poor sources to "support" what they want the article to say, which is mirroring what GrapheneOS website says. The article should neutrally summarize and balance what independent, reliable sources say, and selectively use primary sources when they meet criteria. It is not neutral to selectively include only self-serving, primary-source "virtues" while ignoring other relevant primary-source info, such as "don't use our source" statments. See 4 and 5 at your link, and tell me how this article is not exactly those. Same for WP:NOTMIRROR section at the same page. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:29, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Neutrality tag for "Reception" section
To the editors who added or restored the neutrality tag to the "Reception" section, could you please provide the reliable sources that describe GrapheneOS negatively that you believe are omitted from the article? If there are no such sources, the tag should be removed, because according to WP:TC, "Cleanup tags are meant to be temporary notices that lead to an effort to fix the problem, not a permanent badge of shame to show that you disagree with an article, or a method of warning readers about an article." — Newslinger talk 22:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Source doesn't support exclusive Pixel support happened in October 2022
"As of October 2022 GrapheneOS only supports the current Google Pixel product line.[8]" https://www.howtogeek.com/790266/what-is-grapheneos-and-how-does-it-make-android-more-private/
The article doesn't mention anything about October and I believe it is an incorrect statement anyway. Saw reddit threads from 2 years ago asking why Graphene only supports Pixels. Dougbeney (talk) 13:21, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- Special:Diff/1116101220 is incorrect (and also removed
{{As of}}
). I wanted to revert it a few days ago, but noticed the page was semi-protected and did not bother making an edit request. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 20:28, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
Difficulties and proposals for finding consensus at Talk:GrapheneOS
Example Sockpuppet and off-wiki canvassing investigation and threats of reports: For possible future reference: Sockpuppet and off-wiki canvassing investigation[4] involving a recent editor [5] of this article, Xaeonx7. Also noting response to warning, and threat to "report you".[6] A similar threat of "being reported to Wikipedia Administrators" was recently made by 2603:7080:a903:f154:495:4a48:c4a:a888 on my Talk page.[7] -- Yae4 (talk) 19:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- – This is a body-content matter to raise (and keep) at WP:SPI, WP:AN/I and user talk pages, not here on this article talk page which is only about the discussion of the article (and improving it). 84.250.14.116 (talk) 05:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your statement is noted. Awaiting others. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
This article and talk have been "plagued" with SPAs, and variable IP editors, including one who was determined by an Admin to be trolling[8] (and IMO continues similar behavior). As the true number of editors here is unknown, extended discussions or attempts to "vote" on changes or consensus seems pointless wastes of time. Recent examples of the types of difficulties, wasting editor and Admin time, are above (and in archives). My conclusion is the only effective solution is asking for extended Protection for the article, and then probably regular wasting of time in Sock Puppet Investigations. The question is: Can anyone else propose other reasonable solutions for this article? -- Yae4 (talk) 12:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
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