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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Primefac (talk | contribs) at 03:27, 12 November 2018 (→‎Continuing to create pages after agreeing not to: unblocked). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


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It is 9:46 AM where this user lives. (Purge)

Continuing to create pages after agreeing not to

Stop icon with clock
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 1 month for Disruptive editing. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.
If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.

See the above complaint by User:JohnBlackburne and see the prior discussion in the last talk archive. EdJohnston (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

BrandonXLF (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I never "agreed" to stop making pages, but If that's what the community wants I will stop. I won't create pages for a month (start of december). Of course the ban ensure I won't create pages, but I promise to not create pages for the next month (with the exception of talkpages) – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 20:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Accept reason:

Text of the unblock conditions is as follows (and has been copied to WP:RESTRICT:

No editing in the Template and Module namespaces (10 and 828) with the exception of the sandbox/testcases.

An attempt will be made to use edit summaries whenever possible.
An attempt will be made to limit the edit rate per page by using the Preview option more judiciously

A failure to hold with the final two points (assuming multiple warnings are left) will be considered disruptive editing.

Primefac (talk) 03:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just creating unnecessary templates that's the issue; you've been disruptive in multiple areas recently. When you create a pointless template, it wastes time because it has to go through TFD. When you make a dozen edits to a single template or article without a single edit summary you waste the time of the people trying to (quickly) figure out what you're doing. Heck, just the fact that it takes you a quick dozen edits (even though you claim you use the preview option) wastes our time. When you refuse to accept the possibility that what you did with AWB was disruptive and kept doing it, you waste our time. I have spent an inordinate amount of time cleaning up after you, and so obviously I'm heavily involved, but you just don't seem to get that almost everything you've done is disruptive.

Now, in fairness, the overall result of some of your work has been useful - you haven't been a complete net negative. It's just the way that you edit that I find extremely problematic. Primefac (talk) 20:47, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@EdJohnston and Primefac: I'm inclined to side with Brandon here. It wasn't ever really made clear that Brandon was not to touch that namespace after the block was lifted. Obviously I defer to you, but I'd recommend reducing this from a month to maybe a few days and making it crystal clear to Brandon to stay out of the Module and Template namespace. Don't even leave comments on the talk pages. This includes documentation pages. Just work on something else. I'm happy to monitor them. If they do it again, block for 6 months. Just my 2 cents. I think this is a case of someone who really is trying to do the right thing but just gets too eager. --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 20:51, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Zackmann08, don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against Brandon getting unblocked (and I do agree with you re: not editing Template/Module spaces) but I felt it necessary to comment on the other things that I've noticed. Primefac (talk) 21:06, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) @Primefac: I completely understand my use of AWB was disruptive and just purely idiotic and I will never do that again (or at least do my best to prevent that). I'm trying to get use to edit summaries, but when I do use the preview option, it doesn't let me add an edit summary, It would be nice if there was a userscript for that, but I can't find one, do you know of any? I'm always open to suggestions to my editing and I can change the way I edit if you give me the tools and resources to do so. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 20:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I know, and I didn't necessarily mean to say that you've been entirely disruptive with AWB, but the conversation when you started making mistakes read (to me) like you were trying to carry on editing despite being asked not to. As for edit summaries - I find it highly unlikely that the Preview option in VE doesn't actually allow for adding edit summaries, but I've also never used VE so I wouldn't know. Primefac (talk) 21:06, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I ended up making the proper edit, but there were many issue I faced with communication and with AWB. As for the edit summaries with preview: https://ibb.co/gJF4a0 – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 21:10, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Primefac: Looking at it, I could press return to save form, I've alway just pressed publish changes and then realize it didn't let me enter a edit summary. Oh well. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 21:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is hard for me to trust any more voluntary assurances by User:BrandonXLF. Each time we think he now sees the problem, and will stop. But each time he doesn't stop. As User:Primefac said above, "..you just don't seem to get that almost everything you've done is disruptive." The thing about being unable to use edit summaries is particularly hard to believe. In spite of everything that's been going on, BrandonXLF has also applied to have AWB restored. I don't think he is getting the message. EdJohnston (talk) 21:13, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@EdJohnston: I get the point. I just have to learn, now if you help me learn and not just block me and give me warnings that would be much, much more helpful. If you could help me become better editor I would really appreciate that. I was just going to use AWB to fix spelling and other clean up task as it a way to edit without getting into trouble. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 21:19, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would encourage any reviewing admin to check out their 2018 talk page archives. It is full of notices regarding their editing. Granted, they are almost entirely related to edits in the template/module namespaces (mostly "your edit broke things"), but in the last three months that's accounted for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50-80% of their edits (since it looks like the vast majority of their user-space edits are to their own subpages). So... one one expect to see a high correlation between the two. Primefac (talk) 21:28, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@EdJohnston and Primefac: I agree with a lot of what has been said. The fact that Brandon reapplied for WP:AWB is particularly concerning. I don't really care what you are doing... To apply for that back so soon after a block does demonstrate that you just don't get it. That being said, here is what I would suggest.
1) Brandon withdraws all request for use of WP:AWB and has all extra rights removed (no rollback, no autoconfirmed, etc).
2) Brandon agrees not to touch the Template or Module spaces again, for any reason, INCLUDING talk pages, for a period of AT LEAST 2 months (start of 2019). You see a problem or want something fixed, post on my talk page.
3) Brandon agrees to spend the next two weeks working on the backlog. I actually pinged him earlier today about collaborating on some backlog cleanup and he expressed interest. This is not glorious stuff... It is cleaning up of maintenance categories that are in the backlog. Stuff no one likes doing but that needs to be done. I'd consider this a bit of penance and might actually help him learn.
4) Brandon agrees that if he violates this agreement, in its finalized form, that he will be blocked for 6 months and there won't be any discussion about it.
I realize this is not exactly orthodox... but trying to do the right thing. Thoughts? --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 21:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to keep rollback and auto confirm so I can use huggle, I have to do some kind of editing. There's many template and module I created that I want to work on (such as Module:Jcon and Module:Outdent), I can restrict these edits to your talkpage as you said, but I'd need to use their sanboxes to make the edits drafts and documentations to update usage after the edit is done. I'd also like to be able to add TfD notices to templates. I feel like a lot of the backlog can be fixed with regex and AWB, but doing it manually is fine. The last part seems a little harsh, it should depend how what I do. Part 3 seams fine. For part 1, I'll withdraw the request. For part 2 I feel like that needs a lot of refining. I'm not agreeing to it, yet, but it's definitely a start. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 21:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You know I'm kinda the only one advocating for you here... You can edit without using huggle. Your edit history shows you cannot be trusted to be using tools such as huggle. Frankly I don't think you should even be using a visual editor. I'm trying to propose a path that would let you come back sooner and all you are saying is that it is too harsh and not fair. I give up. --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 21:50, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@EdJohnston and Primefac: whatever the path forward, I think the extra rights afforded to Brandon should be removed. No reason he should have rollback permissions. I forgot that Extendedconfirmed is an automatic permission upon 30 days. But lets remove rollback for sure. --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 21:52, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth this isn't necessarily a "consensus" situation, and I genuinely have no opinions on whether the responding admin decides to keep or revoke that perm (or any others). I'm happy to respond to any queries (I'm watching the page), but at this point I think I've said all I can (if not more than necessary). Primefac (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC) (please do not ping on reply)[reply]
@Zackmann08: I understand you're trying to help. All I really want is to know how you guys want me to edit. Everyone's just saying I',mm editing wrong, so I correct that mistake and then another thing happens. I just don't like the agreement you came up with. I'm fairly yonge and don't have the experience you have in life. If you could "mentor" me like, you said earlier that would be really helpful. I try to do my best, but with only warnings and no guidance to fix the issues, that's becoming a little hard. All I want to do is perform my edits the peoperway, but as of now, no one really helped me with that. If you could help, or anyone could, that would be really, really helpful and would mean a lot for me. I hope you understand I only want good for this wiki and mean no harm. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 22:09, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I offered to help and mentor you... As soon as your block was lifted you went and created a bunch of new templates and modules... Never asked for help.--Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 22:14, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Zackmann08: It wasn't "a bunch", but fair point. I didn't think I needed the help, but clearly I do. That's why I'm asking for advice now. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 22:21, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi BrandonXLF, I'm Kevin. I've spent some time reviewing this, and I have a hunch that you're understanding that the community has concerns with your edits a bit better now. I can tell you're invested in Wikipedia and want to improve this encyclopedia, so (if Primefac agrees) let's try to work something out here. For a while (that is, until you've convinced an administrator like me or Primefac that issues won't recur), you agree not to edit template/module pages, and you agree to refrain from using automated tools like AWB. Huggle, that's fine, I'm not seeing immediate issues there (unless someone else disagrees). I'm also personally inclined to let you edit template sandboxes and talk pages, but I hope you'll be judicious (don't focus on templates/modules!!) and my strongest recommendation is that you turn your attention somewhere else for now – article content work, or perhaps recent changes patrol if you must. Also, you really need to include edit summaries – make it a habit for every edit. I often use VE when doing article work; you can definitely include summaries. If you find yourself forgetting to include summaries, it's probably a sign you're editing too fast and not putting enough thought into each edit. For example, two weeks ago, you made about 30 edits on Template:ON former/testcases in about 23 minutes. There's no real reason to be editing that fast, and especially when you're editing the same page a whole bunch of times in a row – use previews! Anyway, if those conditions are acceptable to you, I will ask Primefac if they agree to an unblock here. (To be absolutely clear, these agreements will be binding and violations will lead to swift blocks – the community needs to be able to trust what you say.) Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 01:16, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin, Thank you for reviewing this, I 100% accept and agree with these conditions as they seem very reasonable. I will refrain from the template and module spaces for a while as you said. Being able to edit the sandboxes and talk pages of the spaces would be really appreciated. I will work on including edit summaries and use previews, It's completely my fault I'm not, but what I'm saying is the software doesn't force (or push) you too do so (in my opinion). I'll stay away from automated tools for a while as you recommended. I will not be focusing on templates and modules, but if you allow me to edit sandboxes can I also edit testcases to test my edits? I really appreciate your understanding of the situation and your recommendations. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 01:28, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like I'm only taking these as recommendation in my reply above, but I understand these are conditions (and thus not recommendations) for my unblock and they cannot be broken. As I said above, I accept these conditions. Thanks, – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 01:35, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@L235: Thanks for reviewing the whole situation. Nice to have someone with a fresh set of eyes looking at it. I've been on both sides of this, both supporting a block and very vocal about lifting the block. I've also offered on multiple occasions to be helpful to Brandon. The one thing I will say is that I feel very strongly Brandon should stay out of the template and module namespaces 100% for a period of time after the block is lifted. The fact that they continue to try to find ways to edit sandboxes or test cases demonstrates (at least to me) a lack of getting it. Their continued ok well no templates, but what about template sandboxes? No sandboxes, ok, well can I still update the documentation? There is so much work to be done that doesn't involve templates or modules, areas where he has demonstrated time and time again that he just causes problems. So I would support immediately lifting the block but under the condition that there is a complete ban on any edits in the Template or Module namespace until such time as an admin says otherwise. To me this includes sandbox, documentation, testcase, talk, ANY page that starts with "Template" or "Module". Just work on something else for a while.
Additionally I find it concerning that Brandon continues to push off the blame onto other software saying that it doesn't force you to add an edit summary... Maybe stop using that software then? --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 01:46, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to push the blame to the software. I understand it's my fault for not using edit summeries, I really do not have an excuse. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 02:06, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Primefac: It looks like L235 wants you say of you agree of not, so we can try to work something out. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 16:22, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To sum up Kevin's points above, it looks like we have the following unblock conditions:

  • No editing in the Template and Module namespaces (10 and 828) for 6 months, with the exception of the sandbox/testcases.
  • An attempt will be made to use edit summaries whenever possible.
  • An attempt will be made to limit the edit rate per page (as mentioned, 23 edits in 23 minutes on a single page is a bit much) by using the Preview option more judiciously
  • A failure to hold with the final two points (assuming multiple warnings are left) will be considered disruptive editing.

If Kevin and Brandon are okay with this, I'll go ahead and unblock. Primefac (talk) 16:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Primefac: That's seams basically fine, but Kevin was also saying he's is inclined to let me edit the template/module sandboxes and talk pages, of course the talk pages aren't in namespaces 10 and 828, but the sandboxes are. I was also requesting the ability to edit testcases. How do you feel about that? Also, for the 6 month I can't edit those namespaces, is there a particular editor I ask to do the edit or do I just do the normal edit request, these edits would likely be small (such as adding a like to a navbox etc). – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 16:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point re: sandboxing, I've amended. As for making the edit - yes, you should put in an edit request. Primefac (talk) 16:47, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Primefac: Ok, just so I don't into anymore trouble, sandboxing includes testcases, right? I need to edit them to make a proper edit request. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 16:49, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I now see you said testcases are fine, the rest seems ok. I may have to ask to edit documentation pages later, but for now, those conditions are accepted by me. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 16:51, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that the restrictions, rather than lasting a finite six months, persist until an administrator determines that the issues that led to this block will not recur (which may be more or less than six months). Other than that, this looks good to me. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 22:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to voice that I'm still concerned that once this block is lifted, we are going to see Brandon doing nothing but editing Template Sandboxes and testcases. I truly hope that I am wrong. I am both willing and eager to be proven wrong here! But I want to make sure that the admins here keep an eye on the edits once the block is lifted. I could see Brandon very easily failing into the same pattern of disruptive behavior with editing of Sandboxes. Brandon, please keep in mind that a sandbox doesn't mean that the template is not used elsewhere. Yes, the sandbox is for testing, but breaking the sandbox can have consequences elsewhere. I strongly urge you to avoid template editing for a while. I AM NOT an admin so I can't tell you what to do... But I have offered to help you and tutor you on multiple occasions. I can tell you right now that if your block is lifted and the first thing you do is make 500 edits to testcases and sandboxes, this is going to signal WP:NOTGETTINGIT loud and clear. You won't be in violation of you restrictions and won't be banned based on what has been said above, but it will demonstrate to people like me who were and are happy to help you, that you just don't get it. If and when your ban is lifted, please realize that you are going to under a microscope for a while. Think twice before clicking save each time. Just my advice. --Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 23:51, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Primefac, what do you think about Kevin's suggestion about changing the six month module/template edit block to until an administrator determines that the issues that led to this block will not recur? I feel like it's better than the six month, as it's more dependent on my behaviour and less of a (random) set amount of time. Of course, it's up to you. As for Zackmann08, I don't have any plans of touching the template or module spaces for a while. Although it may seems like I don't, I really appreciate the help and advice you've been giving me, I hope you can still give me more, I know I still have a lot to learn and to do. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 01:22, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category creation

Hello, BrandonXLF,

I see that you are blocked and you will not be doing any editing until (if) you are unblocked. But I'm tagging a lot of empty categories you created for deletion.

In the future, please do not create categories that have no pages associated with them. You can tag articles/pages with categories that "should" exist and then the red-linked categories will be listed and we can decide whether to create categories for them then. But do not make category pages before there are articles/pages that utilize them. Thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 03:14, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but ok. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 13:26, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I see them now. I don't know why I created those, sorry for any trouble I caused you and anyone else. – BrandonXLF (t@lk) 04:15, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination for deletion of Template:Tnc

Template:Tnc has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Zackmann (Talk to me/What I been doing) 18:46, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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