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2021 Canadian church burnings

Could someone please cast eyes on 2021 Canadian church burnings? It appears to be based on a list compiled by the unreliable source True North. The reference has been removed but the material remains. Elinruby (talk) 18:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The description of what fires occurred probably looks like the list from True North because True North listed the fires that occurred. Since True North is a deprecated source, it's not used. Instead, numerous reliable sources (around 20 in total) are used that independently verify the fires and the relationship between them. By the metric you describe, any accurate statement could be discounted if it is accurately described in a deprecated source. In any case, that also wouldn't be original research. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

As you know quite well, since we have now discussed this multiple times, it is the implied attribution that I am questioning, as well as your framing of the fires as some sort of retaliatory attack on the Catholic church. None of that is ANYWHERE in the sources. And when you find yourself saying things like 'accurately described in a deprecated source" then it may be time to revise your metric for accuracy. Yes, there are one or two sources for each specific fire saying that it happened. The entire premise of the article is still however undemonstrated, three years after the fact. Elinruby (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

That's incorrect: every reliable source, investigators, and tribal officials all say the most likely cause was retaliation for the gravesites. See this 2024 CBC News report on the church fires, this NYT story, this Guardian story, and every other cited piece on the article. Trudeau even made a statement unambiguously connecting the two. In the meantime, you have suggested that the fires were just natural occurrences. If you can provide a reliable source that says there isn't a connection, go for it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, you are asking me to prove that an unproven theory is unproven. *You* need to prove it is not, by proving it. Also I do not claim the fires all had natural causes. Or even any of them for that matter. I simply do not know, and I am saying that there is no evidence that they are all retaliatory arsons. Three years later when some portion of them would surely have gotten through the criminal justice system by now if that were the case. Elinruby (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Furthermore, please describe Justin Trudeau's credentials as an arson investigator, and discuss how "I could understand why someone might do this" supports the proposition that someone of a given ethnicity in fact did. And please stop misquoting me; it's a really bad habit Elinruby (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that a major take away of everything here is that the Canadian government has, for more than a century, had a propensity towards failing to address crimes against Indigenous peoples. The good news is that your personal denialism does not prevent the utilization of RSs. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

You are accusing me of denialism. Please illuminate me as to the train of thought that led you there. Elinruby (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, yes, you did suggest that this could just have been natural, most recently here. You then inserted actual original research into the article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that is a diff, what is its point here? I am quoting you. You said that less than a month ago at ANI, do you remember that? What I get out of it is that you have absolutely no idea about a wildfire season. Meanwhile, Lytton is an example of an extremely large fire in the immediate time period that was neither an accident nor an arson, since it was started per local consensus by a train.[1] It is classified as "man-made" btw, and so is the fire that was started by the upstanding citizen off the Coaquihalla who while having an argument with his girlfriend drove at top speed down a forest road with a barbeque grill going in the back of his pickup truck. In drought conditions surrounded by wildfires. [2] I do not object to an article about retaliatory arsons if we can find some to write about, incidentally. Elinruby (talk) 05:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I have nominated the article for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 Canadian church burnings. Interested editors are encouraged to participate. TarnishedPath^talk 02:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The article was created based on list published by Aleteia, the Catholic on-line newspaper.[3] We avoid OR by reporting possible connections published in reliable sources.

Your mention of True North btw links to a direction. TFD (talk) 03:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah welll the reliability of Aleteia is currently being questioned at RSN based on some other examples of the excellence of their reporting. Elinruby (talk) 05:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I might see if I can get some more reliable support for a potential list, e.g. from local (reputable) news sources from the areas where incidents took place.

I'd be interested in if there could be some sort of consensus for the criteria that make an incident 'count' for potentially being part of a list - e.g. a specific time period they occurred in, whether they were believed to be arson, if they occurred in a specific region, etc.

I'd like to see some description and delineation of how the incidents have been lied about (e.g. by disinformation sources like True North) and misrepresented to whip up fear and furor to support far-right conspiracies. Fluorescent Jellyfish (talk) 06:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fluorescent Jellyfish: I would say go to town, but this is clearly not the article Pbritti wants to write. He just categorized it as an article about Catholicism, which is, yes, mentioned, but that is what he thinks the article is about. It would actually be quite interesting to recast this as a journalism article, and maybe that would even save us all from typing the same thing over and over again for the rest of our lives. There didn't use to be an active journalism project but maybe that has changed. Elinruby (talk) 10:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

As for what would count: if this is a spinoff of the gravesites article I think the standard should be quite high. If this is a list of fires in June 2021 in Canada, you wouldn't have that. At least, when I worked on wildfire articles before, it was, I think, a category --2018 wildfires in California. If this is a list of suspected arsons in late June 2021 in Canada, the next question is why. Why would you have that category? I don't think you should, unless there are a whole lot of other lists like it. And by the way I keep meaning to look up the sample size on that CBC poll. The point I am making with the nationwide scope however is that things are being grouped into single sentences with no indication of why. These are groups of people who may or may not have ever even heard of each other. Elinruby (talk) 11:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Fluorescent Jellyfish: maybe the place to start is where the church burnings (we can't even call them arsons for crying out loud) first became discussed in the context of the graves. Probably it is something like what happened with "mass grave", I suspect, but that is just a theory. Some reporter assumed that this was helpful context. But in terms of Wikipedia that definitely *would be* OR, is the problem. Useful question for disinformation research though. Do the academic journals discuss this fire idea, do you know? I have only seen a discussion of the "they said mass graves" trope, but I haven't searched specifically for this. 18:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

for discussion:[4][5] and aha, our good friends RT [6] But we are looking for "earliest" -- maybe a leading question here? Elinruby (talk) 19:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Then there is [7], which quotes something called the Catholic Civil Rights League. which, aha, maintains a database of "church attacks". Elinruby (talk) 19:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC) This early report [8] on the other hand specifically says Chief Crow, who is in his eighth year as chief, says he can only speculate on why the fires are being set.Elinruby (talk) 19:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC) He is quoted elsewhere as saying the fires are "suspicious," without specifics. A lot of the early reports mention a Sgt. Jason Bayda of the Penticton South Okanagan Royal Canadian Mounted Police said in a statement that the police were “looking to determine any possible connection to the church fires. Links to the statement are now giving 404 errors. Elinruby (talk) 20:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Castanet, which is an RS for the BC interior, quotes Crow more fully [9]: I really don't condone the actions of whoever's done this, but it is under investigation. We'll have to wait and see," Crow said Something called churchleaders.com [10] picked up their story framing it this way from something called "RNS", which I so far have not identified.

Major observation so far: if you seach on "kamloops graves church fires" you get a whole bunch of Catholic media in the search returns. Elinruby (talk) 20:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'm confused. What's the issue here? Pbritti has supplied sources for the contested claim. Nobody's challenged those sources. So what OR are we discussing exactly? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 10:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

giggle. Yes, you are confused. Several of the sources have in fact been challenged, see RSN. Some excellent sources remain, but only for the fact that some people three years ago said that they would be mad too. And that the local RCMP put out a press release. The story evaporated. Only person ever convicted for anything was mentally and and mad at her boyfriend. But we have an article that says that three years ago there was speculation that something or other -- it isn't entirely clear what, but it's obviously Bad....so we have a list of fires in June 2021 that might or might not have something to do with bodies in Kamloops. Maybe. An elder or an academic says I can Understand why someone would -- this is not proof that someone did.

At least some of The fires in the article obviously happened. The question is why and what happened then. Elinruby (talk) 10:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

When you manage to get the CBC, BBC, NYT, Guardian, WSJ, and NPR deprecated as sources at RSN, feel welcome to reopen discussion. In the meantime, feel welcome to personally stick to your theory that the 200+% increase in church fires is just a fluke. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a theory and neither should you. That is the point here. All those are very fine sources but they don't support the idea that there is anything here to have a theory about. Meanwhile since my position that you are misrepresenting is immediately about your comment, I am letting go of the idea that your repeated problems with this have something to do with your memoryaking tem merely has t. Elinruby (talk) 18:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I spot-checked the BBC, CBS and WSJ sources. They all draw a connection between the fires and the gravesites story. This is speculation, but it’s speculation being done by reliable sources and the people they are quoting - not speculation by Wikipedia editors. So it does not look like WP:OR. The premise of the article is that there has been an unusual pattern of fires, and notable people have commented on it. This is not the article to document every Canadian church that caught fire in 2021. It’s an article about a notably unusual pattern of fires. If the article includes mention of a fire that has not been linked to a wider pattern, then that would be WP:SYNTH. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

edit conflict six times trying to get something said in the past 10 minutes.... I give up.Moxy🍁 20:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

My apologies @Moxy: I am done now and the floor is yours. Elinruby (talk) 20:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Who is doing the linking though? The RS tends to mention the proximity in time, only. The Federalist isn't shy about drawing a connection [11] mind you but this is not RS. The "unusual pattern" is that at a time when literally half of British Columbia was on fire [12], there were "suspicious" fires that sparked some speculation. The OR is in framing the fires in particular as a group of related events when there is no evidence of that whatsoever, at least not in the article, or that I have been able to find so far. Elinruby (talk) 20:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC) The Daily Mail is also pushing an explicit revenge motive [13] The New York Times linked them merely as coming at a particularly raw moment, just weeks after the unmarked graves of 215 children were found and said While the circumstances remained murky, investigators said one line of inquiry was arson, including the possibility that the Indigenous communities had been targeted although it does not rule out anger as a cause either. Elinruby (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC) Last, the Penticton Western News, part of a chain of local RS publications, gives a fuller RCMP quote: “Should our investigations deem these fires as arson, the RCMP will be looking at all possible motives and allow the facts and evidence to direct our investigative action,” said Sgt. Jason Bayda, media relations officer for the Penticton South Okanagan RCMP. “We are sensitive to the recent events, but won’t speculate on a motive.” Elinruby (talk) 20:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Ironically, Elinruby pressed for the removal of the only arson (that of St. Gregory Coptic Church) that explicitly contradicted the RS consensus that this is likely retaliation for the gravesites. Indeed, the reason they supporting removing it was the perpetrator's claim that that it was over domestic strife, despite an overwhelming amount of coverage in RSs initially suggesting there was a relationship to the other fires. If Elinruby really wanted to challenge the established narrative, they wouldn't have insisted on excluding that particular fire. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Are there reliable sources which speculate that the cause of the pattern of fires was due to natural wildfires / climate / similar? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

there are literally thousands of sources but to answer that question I need to know which fires. The two in the southeast that are close together? Elinruby (talk) 04:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I just want to know if any reliable source has offered the theory that the pattern of fires has a natural explanation (in which case that can be mentioned in the article), or if that’s just your theory (in which case it’s OR). Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

What pattern? There are a lot of sources, yes. None of them say that these is a link except for the NY Post and the Daily Mail and some really obscure other sites, either Catholic or right wing. By the way "Kamloops graves church fires" produces zero relevant results at JSTOR. It's all about hits like "Church St" in addresses. Plus one American site ranting about blood libel, just to double down on the inappropriateness. Since a now-topic-banned editor essentially gutted Canadian Indian residential school gravesites, I have been going through sources for the reconstruction. Pretty confident in saying that in 2021 RS were saying things like "these two fires came on the heels of the announcement of ground-penetrating radar results." Now these fires are completely off their radar and the top hits about graves in Kamloops right now are all whackadoodle sources. Elinruby (talk) 03:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Is CBC a reliable source? [14]:

Thirty-three churches have burned to the ground across Canada, since the discovery of possible unmarked children's graves at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School in May, 2021. In most cases, officials have blamed arsonists. CBC’s Terry Reith details his investigation into the pattern of arson, and how it’s tied to Canada’s dark residential school history.

Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 06:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

You're still saying "pattern". Maybe this will help:[15]. The pattern of fires in the British Columbia exterior was that they were so extensive all public infrastructure broke down and this was preceded by an extended period of temperatures in the 50 degree Celsius range and followed by extensive landslides. The stores ran out of food and no more could be delivered because all the highways broke. They stopped running trains to avoid setting even more fires. There is a pattern there if only that these events were close in time. These fires Pbritti so desperately wants to highlight are also related in that they were in the same time frame.

The entire province was under a state of emergency [16] and they were sending food up here by helicopter. Much the same was true where those fires were, probably, but no, no source singles out the four or five fires Pbritti claims are linked even though some of them are hundreds and hundreds of miles apart and any link would imply actual organized terrorism. That's not completely impossible, but it's really unlikely and it it did exist I think it would be more effective. I mean, an organized conspiracy to damage a door. Think about it.

What insurrection we did have in that timeframe involved tractor-trailers blockading the national capital. Why would anyone mess around with an abandoned church in the truly remote and obscure Hazelton? Vancouver Island is also literally another world from Hazelton, but we're already having trouble with the concept that stuff burns in British Columbia all the time. But A) "man-made fire" is not synonymous with "arson", for one improper synth, and includes trains, power tools, poorly attended campfires and yes, arson, as well as yahoos who consume too much grievance porn on YouTube perhaps. B) you are asking me for my own synth to counter his apparently uncritical acceptance of religious materials and whacko sources, and Wikipedia is not a matter of faith. It goes by RS. If there are no RS there is no topic. You did hear me say there are no journal articles about this alleged pattern, right? Yes, he keeps waving that cbc link around, but *it* doesn't say there is a link either. It is, yes, reliable. For the fact that there were fires and some of them were suspicious. It isn't reliable for saying that all these fires were post hoc ergo proctor hoc, because it simply doesn't say that. Sigh. I of sort expected the PR noticeboard to know what OR is. It isn't 'we need to update the article if we really must keep it,", OR is "of course there is a conspiracy, check out all the fringe sources that agree with me!" Double sigh. Elinruby (talk) 11:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I said pattern because we have RS that says pattern. I haven’t seen you cite any source which disputes this. Your reasoning above is OR. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The CBC said "pattern" as in, "a pattern of increase in a certain type of fire in a small sample of fire events". Maybe I even believe them given it's the CBC, but something in the back of my mind is telling me that I should look up degrees of significance. Assuming the sampling is valid, though, and the calculations are gold standard, for the sake of the argument, because again, I have questions, but let's pretend: it's still three-year-old speculation that possibly didn't age well. No matter what. Certainly in three years time, some fire investigator somewhere found something out. That is the problem with articles about this type of breaking news story. They have to be updated or they start to be worse than not having an article at all. So the article needs to be updated if we keep it.

And what is the current topic of this article? Maybe I am missing something. Selected police blotter items from 2021? One of these patterns is not like the other. If it wasn't notable enough for the hyper-local online news outlets then, or more likely the RCMP were all drafted to direct traffic or whatnot, then why why why are we hosting an article based on these really really subpar sources now? (partial answer) see comment below where Pbritti says I should have let the mentally ill woman who started a fire because she was mad at her boyfriend stay in the article, because then I would have had a better argument. This is what we are dealing with here. Yes, that happened, and the clearly unrelated episode is already gone, and now we are dealing with those where we just do not know and should not guess. WP:ONUS still applies and yes the article pointlessly discusses one less fire.

Pbritti also still has not answered the question about his affiliations with the Catholic Church btw. Elinruby (talk) 14:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Because it's an absurd, false accusation that warrants no reply. Nor does your WALLOFTEXT or persistent 1AM struggle. Seeing consensus that there's no issue, we're done here. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)'

a) it is not an accusation.

b) to the extent that I am accusing you of anything at all at the moment, it is of being unaccountably stubborn about this strange little synth that seems to be happening here.

c) Oh and then there is flinging wild accusations, but that's to the side for the moment. Right now I just want to know the topic of this article, please. I mean, the church burned down in Lytton, but I don't see it in this article. So what is the category? List of fires some guy called suspicious once? Scottish law has a possible verdict of "not proven", I hear, and that is where I am on that, personally

d) seriously, what is up with all the Catholic sources?

e) are you saying you never worked for, interned with, attended or volunteered at any organization that might have a stake in how these events are perceived? All I need is yes or no. You seem to be saying no, but I am not quite certain. In which case, I eagerly await an explanation for your strong interest in a string of fires on the other side of the continent. It feels like a very specific interest.

There may be many reasons for that of course and no doubt a lot of them are none of my business. I am getting from RSN that a couple of them the sources might not be bad, just very devout. But why would you use them here? Is this your primary reading list here in the sources? Elinruby (talk) 18:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I was compensated while contracted to the United South and Eastern Tribes, an inter-tribal non-profit representing 33 US federally recognized tribes that promotes Native sovereignty and lobbies to improve conditions in the US's Indian Country. I was also contracted to work with the US Department of the Interior to teach Native students civics skills to better advocate for restitution of damages caused by American government policies, including the US boarding school system. Both teaching positions have been my favorite experiences working. Since working in these positions, I have performed few edits related directly to the residential school system, as my extreme bias against the schools could interfere with my ability to be impartial. I have never been financially compensated by any organization related to the school burnings but I've been aware of them since they began in June 2021, hence my focus on them. Whether you still believe the attacks on Indigenous churches were fake news that was only voiced by click-bait websites ([17]) despite dozens of reliable sources being furnished to connect them, I don't care. Do not bother me again. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

template it is for the additional misrepresentation of the positions of another editors, after multiple warnings. I do thank you for the above reply, but I did not limit the question to paid positions. Are you certain you didn't miss something? I am sure you enjoyed answering it even less than I enjoyed asking it. Elinruby (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I have missed nothing. I am also aware of your statements about me on other websites. Cut the badgering. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

if that is your final answer then that is your final answer. I have no idea what you are talking about. So shall we remove some unsourced leaps of logic from the article then? I'll start after supper. Elinruby (talk) 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I would have to agree with @Pbritti that many reliable sources do mention the possibility that the church arsons may have some sort of link to the findings of potential unmarked graves at residential schools. For instance, beyond the articles in CBC, etc., which mention such a possibility, some Indigenous leaders have also suggested there may be a link. For example, in this article from Global News, both Chief Clarence Louie (chief of the Osoyoos Indian Band, where a church was burnt) and Grand Chief Stewart Phillip (of the Union of BC Indian Chiefs) appeared to suggest that some church arsons may have been associated with anger about the findings at residential schools.

If that theory is correct? No idea. I wouldn't be surprised if it was, or if it wasn't, or if a few were and a few weren't! The events themselves - a number of arsons of churches, which made the news - did occur, though we don't know if they were connected. However, many people speculated they were connected. I also think the events were taken up and folded into a conspiracy theory (mostly about the idea of Christianity, and white people, being under attack) and the number and facts were misrepresented by many far-right sources. It can be valuable to mention that some people theorised the churches were burnt for reasons of anger in response to the findings at residential schools, because, well, that theorizing occurred. It also allows us to discuss how that possibility was used and lied about by the far-right.

So, two things can be true at once.

We should certainly take care to ensure the accuracy of the article, which I think we can all agree. Also, part of the circumstances around these arsons was the conjecture, by many people and sources, that it may have been driven by anger. Whether that's true or not? Unclear. But the suggestions certainly did exist. Fluorescent Jellyfish (talk) 04:21, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree: So let's write that article not the Church-under-attack article that Pbritti is trying to write here. I think this noticeboard is living up to its reputation and there is little point in further discussion here, especially since some people now seem to have automagically gotten the idea that I am attacking Pbritti for his faith. Just a coincidence of course and certainly not retaliation for the level-2 template for aspersions I gave him moments before. I am going to ping you from somewhere else. This (I guess?) is now at Arbcom but I think it is being conflated into something else about the Mormons along with some other stuff about Muhammed. Anyway, if these two still do not see how cherry-picked the sampling is, I don't think I will be able to convince them of that myself, and maybe this should be at Arbcom. Save your carpals, and let's talk p-values at the the other article.Elinruby (talk) 05:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Mormons and Muhammed..... what does this have to do with anything we're talking about. I'm wondering if this account has been compromised? Moxy🍁 17:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Funny, I was wondering the same thing about you. You never used to refuse to read before. Go ask Clovermoss; it's her clarification request. Elinruby (talk) 04:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Elinruby is talking about this. I only added the first seven parties to the clarification request, another editor added more (to include Elinruby among others). Essentially, I was asking ArbCom if a principle from a previous case is still applicable in certain circumstances, since people have linked to it in three different matters recently. It's not a case request and I doubt ArbCom is going to do anything more than say "yes, this principle is still applicable" or "no, it's not". The principle in question states: Editors are expected to refrain from making unnecessary references to the actual or perceived racial, religious, or ethnic background of fellow editors. Such references should be made only if they clearly serve a legitimate purpose. In the context of a noticeboard discussion or dispute resolution, it will rarely serve a valid purpose to seek to classify the participants in the discussion on this basis.

I think this is the first time I've posted to the no original research noticeboard. I'm hesitant to get myself super involved here because this discussion looks incredibly heated and I'm not sure I want to sign myself up for that but maybe having an extra set of eyes will help add a new perspective. There's a bunch of background reading I'd like to do first so I don't accidentally make things worse. After that, I'd probably want to set up some kind of table on relevant talk pages where I compare statements made in wikivoice to what a source actually says since at least one editor is concerned about original research. At least that's my plan. I have some other things on my plate right now and it might take me awhile to actually do all that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

the short version here is that in a context where thousands of fires were burning an editor has created an article sourced to militant-faith-under-attack publications to try to have Wikipedia say that the church is under attack. Based on a half dozen of those thousands of fires. There are some good sources for individual fires but they are for the individual fires only.This really is just a sideshow to the main issue though and I think we should see what if anything Arbcom does about the private evidence. Not really upset about being added, as it saved me a trip to COIN maybe, but Moxy is very invested in portraying me as unworthy of being read for whatever reason (see WikiProject Canada) so I was just answering that. I personally strongly doubt we are going to get a yes or no answer on such a broad request, and I personally think Horse Eye's Back should have refrained from the point of view of his position, since afaict this falls under one of the delineated exceptions. But I am happy to leave this in Barkeep's hands. If you are interested in the topic I would not start here; this discussion was primarily BEFORE and is mostly notable for the mind-bending assertion that it is the editor saying that the sources don't support that who is doing OR. A table such as you described would be useful, and if you are taking suggestions I would start with all the source misrepresentation I have been noting in edit summaries at the Canadian Indian residential school gravesites article starting around the last week in May Elinruby (talk) 06:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

You keep saying that, but every time someone reads the article and the sources, they end up realizing your claims are false. You seem to believe that the article is somehow biased, false, or original research. However, you've failed to convince anyone of this over the last month and a half. Move on. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No. It doesn't matter how often you say it, your premise is a formal fallacy and although I know you are accustomed to indignation getting you what you want I know it's a tactic. What's the topic of the article? It's just a string of police-blotter items that your defending-the-faith sources used to gin up donations.

You also don't have consensus either, no matter how many times you say *that*. You say a lot of things. Elinruby (talk) 15:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

the point that you are missing is that I am not out to prove anything, just saying that you have not Elinruby (talk) 21:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

If a fire was speculated in RS to be linked to the pattern, but later proven not to be linked, then both of those facts can be covered in the article, with due weight. The initial speculation and the subsequent resolution are both part of the evolution of the story. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a lot of proof of anything. That's kinda the problem. Recent coverage is definitely limited to fringe and Catholic sources. But yes, one idea is to report the distortion of RS coverage in non-RS sources. Fluorescent Jellyfish mentioned that also, which would mean reframing it as a journalism story. I got stuck on what its title would be, though. "Hoax" is not demonstrated either. Well, maybe in journals. I should check that next. Elinruby (talk) 21:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

CBC News is fringe? Also, such a reframing would be original research. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Not if there are sources for the analysis. I am looking into it, and am still waiting, btw, to see your sources per WP:ONUS that say there is a pattern.

And listen, I think this is the third warning: quit misquoting me. I have previously warned you several times about this and if you ignore this warning as well, I am going to start templating you. People are supposed to be able to believe what you say. By the way, you never answered the question about why your article uses so many Catholic sources when better-known RS are available. I find that odd. Are you affiliated with one of these publications, perhaps? Do you or your present or former employers or schools have any affiliation to any entity with a stake in public perceptions of June 2021? Elinruby (talk) 03:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

No original research says that articles cannot present opinions that are not sourced to reliable sources. It does not say that opinions published in reliable sources cannot be reported. So long as reliable sources report comments on possible links between residential schools and church fires, it is not OR to mention them. TFD (talk) 00:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

not as individual fires, no. But this is not that. Elinruby (talk) 06:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

? TFD (talk) 14:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If you want me to answer a question you are gyoing to have to use your words. The OR is the vast conspiracy to attack churches, in case that is what you are not understanding. If that's not it. you are going to have to tell me. Elinruby (talk) 19:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Our article does not mention a vast conspiracy to attack churches. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 20:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

They keep claiming there's an issue, but haven't provided evidence for those claims. When you point out what they've said, they claim they're facing retaliation or personal attacks. We can move on. ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

ooo ooo I found an article about arsons in 2021!

oops it's not about churches. Does that make it not part of a pattern? Summer of 2021 is our timeframe though, aww. Seriously, I am looking for an article like this.which was published in the home area of those two fires in the southeast, so... arrest, followup, trial as to any of the fires in the article??? I don't know where you were in the summer of 2021 but I was in the British Columbia interior obsessively tracking the out of control wildfires in the area and volunteering to help wildfire refugees -- almost entirely indigenous, but that is just the local demographics --anyway, helping wildfire refugees get food and find out where they could go or even get to. Anyway, back to this article. I said the publisher was Black Box Media before. My mistake, it is Black Press Media. I have discussed their reliability over at RSN; I said I relied on them for stuff like road closures and think they are excellent to good for local news. Did not get an argument about it, but here is an example of their work, for the record. There are quite a few related small-town papers like this with the same format, look, owner and policies. They are professional and when I say they are reliable for road closures, DriveBC is not, btw, and road closures can be really really important around here. They might not immediately have every incident but if they say a road is closed, it is closed unless they updated it and you really do have to do the 200-mile detour. Seriously, where are the stories about these fires at churches? It's been three years now. These outlets are online but it isn't exaggerating much to say they would put out a special edition for the santa's parade. A new park bench would be front-page material. It beggars belief that they would not cover arrests or statements about a fire at a church anywhere in or around their distribution are. Where is the RS coverage like this of these church fires? Elinruby (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have genuinely no idea where you’re going with this. Time for a break? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 18:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

(ec)You're the one asking questions. I did come in here to append a note however, which is below.Elinruby (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

btw I found an acquittal for one of the alleged arsons on the True North list

This source isn't real informative but it clearly says that one of the two men arrested for arson in Fort Chipewyan one was acquitted and the other one had previously received a suspended sentence [18] Source is Postmedia and should be at be very least ok btw Elinruby (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Being acqa juitted sounds like something the Spanish Inquisition might do to you. EEng 10:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

bad mousepad. Fixed Elinruby (talk) 11:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Those on this noticeboard may wish to read Talk:2021 Canadian church burnings#Text source integrity analysis. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Is describing an image OR?

Hello NOR Noticeboard, I am working on a page that describes variations of the log cabin quilt square in my sandbox. For the "settings" (patterns created by combinations of squares) I have a book that showed examples of the quilting squares accompanied by the description of the setting. I described the settings that I saw. I think this is similar to summarizing a book's plot. Is that okay? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Rachel Helps (BYU), it's not an exact science, but the plot summary analogy seems accurate. It should be fine as long as it's simple statements of fact that are readily apparent from the image. I'll note that we essentially do the same thing with most image captions. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

If the descriptions you gave were based on the descriptions that accompanied the images in the source (and it sounds like that is what you did) then there isn’t a NOR issue. If, on the other hand, you stated something beyond what was in the source, there might be. A lot depends on what specifically you said. Blueboar (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I was not paraphrasing written material, but paraphrasing visual material, if that makes sense. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

"Late modern period"

The article late modern period (currently a redirect) was originally created without any actual sources defining the topic. It was just assumed that the existence of the early modern period meant there had to be a late "equivalent". But the term is actually very marginally used among historians and is often specific to the a period of English literature. It seems to be mostly based on the misunderstanding of how the modern period is defined, which is either c. 1500 until today or c. 1800 until today, depending on the context.

Almost a year ago, there was a clear and umabigious request[19] to provide sources to define the "late modern period" at talk:late modern period up for several months. No sources that actually describe the term unambiguously as "the period following the early modern period" have been provided, only references to search hits for the phrase "late modern" or "late modern period" in prose.

From what I can tell, there are several users who want to flat-out ignore WP:OR and even WP:N in order to keep late modern period because it "feels" logical and convenient. Periodization is in my view treated as though it was merely a subjective layout issue rather than something has to be verifiable and balanaced. It's as if a lot of Wikipedians think it's okay to disregard sources in favor of their own take on how history should be written and organized.

I would appreciate input on this over at talk:late modern period to help build a more sensible consensus around this. Peter ^Isotalo 23:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Note that the BLAR is now being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Late modern period. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 13:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Is using sources to write about the existence of sources OR?

See Rust (programming language)#In academic research paragraph 1. I wrote it, but I'm a little bit unsure about whether it would be WP:SYNTH to use the existence of sources to imply something and not the content of them, or how I categorized some sources in the sentence for properties of the language itself as well as the utility the language provides for writing software used for research. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 18:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

No, this is par for the course. JDiala (talk) 09:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Is using sources published before the topic event OR?

On Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine (specifically the "Mentioning NATO in lead" and "Misrepresentation of WP:ONUS" sections), we are having an ongoing discussion about interpretations of WP:OR. Some of the sources in that article, particularly in the "background" section, utilize sources from prior to 2022, which was the year the invasion began. The user Mr rnddude has stated that he believes, whenever editing an article about an ongoing or recent event, it is WP:OR to make use of any sources published prior to that event. His logic seems to be that any reliable source authored prior to 2022 would not know there would be an invasion in 2022, and so attempting to connect their work to the invasion is an instance of OR. On the basis of this belief, he is attempting to remove all pre-2022 sources from the article altogether and is also reverting edits which introduce pre-2022 sources into the article.

Myself and another editor, Chino-Catane, expressed a concern that his viewpoint on this matter may not be mainstream, as many other articles regarding ongoing or recent geopolitical events (including homepage-linked articles and GA articles) do not follow this standard and allow for some sources published prior to the event's occurrence especially in the "background" (or similar) sections. Mr rnddude however is insisting that his position is the correct one.

Is Mr rnddude correct? And if so, does this mean that existing articles which make use of pre-event sources need significant overhauls? Thanks. JDiala (talk) 00:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the specific discussion or material that is contested there, but there are background statements for which it would be fine to use older sources. A hypothetical example: one can cite a reliable source from 2021 that says that Putin began his fourth term as President of Russia in 2018.

It depends on the nature of the statements for which the pre-2022 source is being cited. Editors should definitely be careful of synthesis directly relating pre-2022 sources to post-2022 events. — MarkH₂₁^talk 00:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I know a lot of people who hold Mr rndude's view. More broadly, they (not necessarily including Mr here anymore) hold that every source used in an article should be about that article's subject. It's a consistent and reasonable position. I disagree slightly in most cases and strongly in a few exceptional cases (none of which are relevant here). For this article, I think those folks are mostly right, since the invasion is such a well covered topic. There might be a hundred or more reliable sources that describe the background to the invasion. If one can't be found that mentions a particular background detail, it probably should not be included.

I'd be unlikely to challenge obvious, uncontested, entirely neutral facts, like Mark's example, but if someone did challenge them, I'd fall back pretty quick. Maybe Putin's 2018 election isn't a detail worth mentioning, if no RS are mentioning it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:02, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that editors should definitely be careful of synthesis. But wouldn't this kind of rule have rather problematic consequences in all sorts of areas, for scientific topics for example, the ongoing event of scientific research, where you have 'pre-event' conjectures/hypotheses and experimental results/discoveries. It doesn't seem like OR to connect published hypotheses about gravitational waves, for example, that pre-date observations/results, to the experimental results. A post-event only rule for sources seems too restrictive. Obviously, it's all context dependent. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I think sources published before the outbreak of the war about the possibility of a war could (or even should) be cited in a background section. Borsoka (talk) 02:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• I think one needs some modern-day RS that connect directly the subject of the page (the invasion) with specific events of past that appear in the "Background" section. Otherwise, this will be WP:SYN. However, as soon as we have and use such RS, nothing prevents from using additional older sources that only describe events in the "Background" section. My very best wishes (talk) 03:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

This is for such specific example. But in general, no, there is no such requirement. An article on subject X may include various aspects or subcategories, A,B,C (for example, an article about enzymes can include parts about hydrolases, transferases, etc.), and the sources can be about these aspects A,B,C, not necessarily directly on the whole subject X. Well, in this example no one will dispute that hydrolases and transferases are enzymes (hence belong to the page). This may be much less clear for historical events. In some cases, the connection may be so trivial that it does not require supporting references. But if the connection was disputed, then providing some supporting RS is necessary to avoid WP:OR. My very best wishes (talk) 15:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not have time to address this whole section. I will briefly reproduce my actual statements, as having read the talk page response, I do not for a moment trust that Jdiala has accurately summarised them here. My statements at the talk page regarding OR are as follows:

The way to write a background for this article is to cite present, up-to-date sources that provide the background information and analyses themselves. You do not need, nor should you be referring to, outdated sources to achieve this. You will be hard pressed to present a convincing argument for how a source that cannot so much as discuss the article's subject is directly related to it. - The last comment here refers to the abundant use of sources that pre-date not only the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but the whole war that started in 2014.

Compile a selection of sources on the Russian invasion of Ukraine that provide background coverage on NATO-Russia / NATO-Ukraine relations and an analysis on their impact leading up to the invasion. Write a paragraph or dedicated section about it from those sources.

You may not use sources that do not discuss an article subject to make claims about the article subject. Present that statement to any admin you like, they will tell you some variant of: no shit. - You can feel the frustration of dealing with this user at this point. Particularly their incessant insistence on abusing the word 'fringe' with regards the preceding statements.

The 'pre-invasion statements' section is a composition of original research through the use of sources unrelated to, and without comment on, the article topic: "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support[b] the material being presented". None of that should be transferred here, and all of it should be removed from the prelude article. Do not base whole sections of an article on sources that do not and can not comment on the article topic. - This was a comment I made in an unrelated discussion that cites the specific wording of WP:OR. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

JDiala - You say that [o]n the basis of this belief, he is attempting to remove all pre-2022 sources from the article altogether and is also reverting edits which introduce pre-2022 sources into the article. I have done neither of these things. I have not removed or attempted to remove all pre-2022 sources from the article, nor have I been reverting additions to the article. This is, as you have presented it, a bold-faced fabrication. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Mr rnddude, I perhaps should have been more circumspect with my wording, and I should also have been clear that it is not just you but rather a few other editors as well (e.g., My very best wishes) involved in the discussion; these latter editors were the ones reverting the new edits by Chino. I can also concede that this was not always the only argument for removal, but it was a significant one as indicated by how many bytes of text were spent discussing it. I apologize if you felt I misrepresented your views.

Putting aside these quibbles, I maintain that I made a good-faith attempt to describe your point of view based on what you said in the talk page discussion. The user ManyAreasExpert stated "please don't base [the NATO discussion] on outdated sources, as, after the start of the invasion, every pre-2022 source is outdated, and will be deleted", which was based on his interpretation of OR. This struck me as a strong, absolutist position, and it was what led to that user's discussion with Chino and I. You then later chimed in saying that you felt ManyAreasExpert's citations of OR were "accurate" and that "outdated" sources should not be referred to. You offered no qualification in your support for ManyAreasExpert's position. Based on this, I inferred that you too felt that "every pre-2022 source is outdated" and should "be deleted", as the person you were defending, ManyAreasExpert, said exactly this. JDiala (talk) 06:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say mostly yes, sources should be in the context of the article's subject outside of obvious essential facts. Sources are just as necessary when verifying relevance as they are when verifying facts. I recently wrote a short essay about how I think articles like this should be written. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• If a recent source indicates that topic A is relevant to the article, then there is nothing wrong with using an older source to flesh out content about topic A. It isn't automatically SYNTH. In the example of the Ukraine invasion, I don't see anything wrong with using an older source for information on how Ukraine achieved independence from the USSR, because these two things are frequently presented together in modern sources. It would only be SYNTH if editorial conclusions regarding the invasion were drawn from the older source. The underlying confusion here derives from the "directly related to the topic of the article" clause which is an example of poor wording that does not unambiguously express either the intent of the policy or of common practice. The "topic of the article" is not just what is narrowly defined by its title, and in this example past events which, according to RS, are relevant to the invasion are included in the topic of the article. Zero^talk 05:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Mr rnddude is incorrect. Adding sources from prior to an event in a background section is not automatically WP:OR or WP:SYNTH (to be more specific). TarnishedPath^talk 06:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Not automatically, agree. But it's easy to imagine that happening, and UNDUE stuff may creep in as well. I have not looked at the specific article under discussion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree, that background sections can get a bit long and some editors may then attempt to COAT in their view of history. But if the argument is that having background sections, which use sources prior to an event in that the article is in relation to, is necessarily original research then I think that's patently wrong and far off common practice. TarnishedPath^talk 05:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

TarnishedPath - I'll try to be brief. It is not my contention that the mere presence or inclusion of sources from prior to an event is automatically WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. My contention is that basing large tracts or whole sections of an article on such sources constitutes original research. The presence of a stray older source in the background is a distraction, particularly as at present there is a stray current source in that section. Of the present citations: 16 pre-date the event (~half are older than the whole conflict itself), 5 are contemporaneous, and a few are undated but I'll assume they are contemporaneous. That is an over-reliance on sources that don't and can't comment on the present conflict. Contrasting with the other presently on-going major conflict, the background section to the Israel-Hamas war has a mere 2 pre October 7th, 2023 sources and approximately 40 post October 7th, 2023 sources. That is a chasm in approach and without doubt the latter is far superior in quality to the former.

I don't think any pre-2022 source is necessary for the article, there are ample current sources that cover all of the relevant subject matter, but if there is a reliable source from 2021 that says that Putin began his fourth term as President of Russia in 2018 or other such minutiae as MarkH21 presented as an example it doesn't matter remotely to me. I'd prefer – and were I writing such a section myself would employ only – those sources that either 1) speak directly on the topic of the article or 2) are referenced by sources that speak directly on the topic of the article. That's reflective of my actual editorial approach. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll have a look later. TarnishedPath^talk 05:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

We are in no need to generalize here. And the vice versa, if we can't generalize, it does not mean that we are allowed to dive into OR and synthesis on which sources are relevant to the event and which are not.

We have a specific article and a situation where a huge amount of post-2022 analyses are available for use. If some editor wants to keep pre-2022 sources to make a conclusion which post-2022 sources do confirm? Just use post-2022 source! If we want to use pre-2022 sources for a conclusion for which there is no post-2022 sources? The answer is obvious. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

It is OR. The reason you include what preceded the event is to explain what caused the event. Saying something caused the event is OR and must be sourced. If something is relevant to the invasion, then you should be able to find a recent source that says that. TFD (talk) 05:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Jordan Peterson

There is a dispute on the Jordan Peterson article Talk page concerning the climate change section of the article. One key question is: how should editors use primary and/or secondary sources to decide what the article should say about Peterson's contributions to the debate on climate science and climate policy? Additional input from experienced NORN contributors would be appreciated. Newimpartial (talk) 20:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Oldest institute for agricultural research?

In the wiki on INRA it is stater that this is (or maybe) the first institute for agricultural research in Europe. However, in the wiki on the ‘history of Wageningen University and research you can read that the institute DLO (governmental Agricultural Research Service) was founded in 1877, and several new sub-institutes from 1888 onwards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A456:35A:1:B4A4:136B:BFEF:40EF (talk) 16:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Paraphrasing official legal texts

I'd be interested to get more thoughts on where to draw the line between what qualifies as "original research" vs "reasonable paraphrasing" on articles about Law, when quoting directly the actual text of law (e.g., quoting the constitution, or a text of law).

For example, in "Draft talk:Contravention in French criminal law", one paragraph states:

Article 34 of the Constitution, which pertains to the scope of the law, does not include provisions concerning contraventional offenses, in contrast to crimes and misdemeanors: "The law establishes the rules concerning: [...] the determination of crimes and misdemeanors, as well as the penalties applicable to them.

My opinion was that it would be acceptable for this paragraph to rely only on a primary source (article 34 of the constitution), since the first sentence only makes non-controversial statements that can be easily checked by opening the actual text of the law (i.e., that article 34 doesn't contain any statement related to contraventions but contains statements related to crimes and misdemeanors), and the second paragraph is just a translated quote from that article.

However, in this discussion, @Mathglot was of the opinion that this would qualify as original research unless it is supported by a secondary source.

I agree that other parts of the draft are likely problematic, but I'd be interested in getting more opinions on that particular paragraph, to get better lens on how I should think about OR on legal topics in general. I feel like law (especially in civil law countries) typically relies a lot more on primary sources than other domains such as science where primary sources cannot always be trusted (e.g., due to bias of the authors). Hence I would have expected a lot more weight be given to primary sources given they are the "source of truth" of an entire legal system.

7804j (talk) 13:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Mathglot is right here. As Wikipedia editors we should not be assumed to have the legal expertise to understand the important factors of laws and court rulings to be able to quote or directly paraphrase them. Thus we must rely on secondary sources that are reliable for this type of reporting to help us explain laws or the importance parts of court rulings that we can include. — Masem (t) 14:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, 7804j, I plan to leave this discussion primarily to others unless called upon, but wanted to clarify something. In your OP above, you said: "...when quoting directly the actual text of law", but then later you talk about having a paragraph "...to rely only on a primary source", and that seems quite different to me. I read the former as meaning you want to copy the law word-for-word and double-quote it (no problem), and in the second, you want to have a paragraph that "relies" on the law, by which I understand not word for word, and not double-quoted, i.e., somebody's rewording, or interpretation (big problem).

So I think we need to be clear about which situation you are talking about here. As the linked discussion was solely about the second case (paraphrased), I'm assuming that is your main intent here, but if I'm wrong about that, please clarify. In connection with an article that is well-sourced to our standards, I have no objection to copying text from a law or Constitution directly into a Wikipedia article, as long as it is word-for-word exact, enclosed in double quotes, properly cited, and reasonably brief. (Long extracts, or even the entire French criminal code is public domain, and you may copy the whole thing if you wish—if it isn't already—to Wikisource, and then link to it from the article.) But I believe you are not asking about that case, but a loose paraphrase of the law, a very different situation, and in my view, that is off-limits. Mathglot (talk) 03:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)