Poured Over Double Shot: Ann Patchett and Jimin Han

By Jenna Seery / August 1, 2023 at 6:00 am

Tom Lake by Ann Patchett is a rich, multidimensional story of family, love and summer stock theater. Patchett joins us to talk about the wealth of influences that inspired this novel, wanting to write a happy book, being an author and a bookseller and more.

Jimin Han’s The Apology follows a surprising and funny 105-year-old woman as she fends off an intergenerational curse. Han joins us to talk about the humor in her characters, claiming space as a writer, what she’s learned while teaching and more.

Listen in as these authors speak separately with Miwa Messer, host of Poured Over. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Jamie and Marc.    

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang.        

Featured Books (Episode):
Tom Lake by Ann Patchett
Our Town by Thornton Wilder
Fool for Love by Sam Shepard
The Dutch House by Ann Patchett
Commonwealth by Ann Patchett
Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver
Such Kindness by Andre Dubus III
The Color of Water by James McBride
Crook Manifesto by Colson Whitehead
Do Tell by Lindsay Lynch
Loot by Tania James
Small Worlds by Caleb Azumah Nelson
Temple Folk by Aaliyah Bilal
The Apology by Jimin Han
The Queen of the Night by Alexander Chee
Trust by Hernan Diaz

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
A God in Ruins by Kate Atkinson
The Inheritance of Orquídea Divina by Zoraida Córdova

Full Episode Transcript

Miwa Messer

I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and Ann Patchett, frankly needs no introduction. But I will remind you, she does have an Orange Prize. She was a finalist for the Pulitzer for The Dutch House. The new novel is Tom Lake, and it is fabulous. It is just fabulous. And thank you so much for making the time. We’re so happy to see you. But I have a question. And I’m going to quote you for a second what was the shred of an idea that started Tom Lake?

Ann Patchett

The shred of an idea which I had while I was writing, The Dutch House was just about a woman who got to the end of her life and was thinking about when she played Emily in Our Town in high school. That’s the shred. But I’ve been really obsessed with Our Town since I was in high school. And it’s a play that I read over and over again and have throughout my life and just wanted to write about Our Town, Our Town becomes more and more relevant, the closer we get to our own death.

Oh, without a doubt, and actually, you sent me back to reread it for the first time in a really long time. And it’s wild to me how modern it is. I mean, this was written in ‘37, first staged in ‘38, as in 1938. And I had no memory of being sort of as wild and smart because I was one of those high schoolers who was handed a copy and, you know, answered the questions that I had to answer and whatnot, but going back to it as an adult, it’s pretty sublime actually.

It’s also like the ultimate Buddhist text. You don’t really need to go off on a retreat. Just meditate on Our Town for a while and therein lies the answer my friends.

There’s also a little bit of Chekov in this new novel.

And a little bit of Sam Shepard, people want to talk about, about Our Town and they want to talk about Chekov and The Cherry Orchard and Three Sisters. No one wants to talk about Sam Shepard.

No, actually I am that person. I would really like to talk about Shepard. I love Sam Shepard’s plays I really do and when Fool for Love popped up. I was like, Okay, we’ve got Thornton Wilder in Our Town. We got Chekov and The Cherry Orchard, which is not a direct parallel, but readers will understand and I’m not going to spoil this sort of connection there beyond the fact that yes, part of the book takes place in a cherry orchard on a farm in Michigan. But it’s not. If you’re thinking oh, no, what Chekov What, no, it’s not a direct lineage. It’s just, it’s wonderful to see all of these different bits of inspiration that come into this book. I mean, that’s part of the fun of reading you there’s always something cooking in the background.

Yeah. And I think that in that case, it’s also my bookseller heart. I am always trying to turn people towards some other text that I love, or to turn people to theater is fantastic. Especially if you’re somebody like me, I don’t go to theater. I live in Tennessee. And when I go to a big city, and I have a free night, that’s where I go to listen to music, I go to the opera, or I go to the symphony. And so you know what I know about theater, I really know from reading, which is pathetic, but that’s what I’ve got, when I first was really seriously getting ready to write this book. I hadn’t started it. But I invited a group of random neighbors over to do a cold read of Our Town. I just gave everybody a part. I marked up the copies bought a bunch of paperbacks, and I thought this would be the best book club, to have a group of people come over and do a cold read of a play, and then sit around and talk about it. It was so much fun.

Do you actually have time for another book club?

No! I did it once, I did it once. And I just thought this would be fantastic. Bring the neighbors over for a Fool for Love,that will really throw things off.

Lots of folks aren’t necessarily prepared for Sam Shepard playwright versus Sam Shepherd actor. And I mean, he also had very experimental period early on in his career, and I think people would really be surprised by some of that work, but I love the sort of mix of influences that you’ve pulled and part of this story, though, is set at a summer stock Theatre Company in Michigan, and every time I see Traverse City, my first thought is Jim Harrison. So if I started nice bringing in Jim Harrison, you’ll know why but I mean, I can’t read the words Traverse City without thinking of that man. And his beautiful, beautiful work, but Michigan. The people I get, and we’ll get to the people, but I just want to start with place because Michigan is not what I expected. And I’m also I’m a theatre person because I have access to it. But I don’t know a lot about sort of regional theater or summer stock or any of that. So can we kind of start there? Because I know you like homework. I know you like homework, and I feel like there’s a little homework here.

What I was just gonna say is Well, neither do I. Where are you? Where are you?

I’m in New York right now. But I run back and forth between New York and LA.

Well, yeah, then you have access to everything. So I like setting books in places that I know a little bit. That’s the perfect window for my imagination. I will probably never write a book that is set in Nashville because I know it too well, and I wouldn’t become too obsessed with you know, what if I miss something around but Northern Michigan, Traverse City, Petoskey is an area that I love. And I know moderately, because my favorite bookstore is called McLean and Eakin in Petoskey, Michigan, and I went there for Bel Canto. So more than 20 years ago, became great friends with the owner Julie Norcross, her son, Matt Norcross runs it now. I mean, I’m just I’m deep in with those people. And then later, I made some very, very close friends in Traverse City. So I go up there, I see those people. Now my friend in Traverse City is a woman named Erin Whiting. And Erin grew up on a cherry orchard. She went to Interlochen for high school. And then she founded an independent professional theatre company in Traverse City called Parallel 45. So I thought, okay, you know, I’m, I’m gonna set this book in Michigan, it’s just got all the vibe that I want. And then fortunately, Erin was offered a really great job, she left the theater company, and the job turned out to be a total scam and disappeared two months later, and she was out of work, she couldn’t go backwards. And I said, this is perfect. I’m gonna hire you to do research about cherries, and apples and theatre. And Erin just, she just saved my life. You know, I would send her a list of questions every week, and she would answer them. I didn’t know the difference between a swing and an understudy. I didn’t know what a summer stock schedule would be like that you always open with the musical that, you know, it would have to be this kind of play in balance with that kind of play, the rehearsal schedule, that you’re rehearsing the next play while you’re in a play at night. I didn’t know any of that. And the things that I know about cherry trees would blow your mind.

Well, I’m glad you know, all of these things, because I got to read Tom Lake, I have to just to go back to the summer stock thing for a second though. Lara, are sort of Narrator who’s really fabulous and very smart and very sly, and not at all, who is I’m not even sure what I expected. But not a theatre girl, but ends up being a theater kid. She is playing Emily in Our Town. And she has been told she’s going to play May and Fool for Love. And I’m sorry. I’m still laughing. I’ve known this for several weeks now. And I’m still laughing when I think this little girl from and she is very young when we first were, as she’s telling her story. And as she’s getting into the theater, she’s very. And here’s this kid from a tiny town in New Hampshire, who’s playing two wildly divergent characters. And she’s not the only one. There’s another character who we meet. Who’s under studying in both Cabaret and Our Town. I’m sorry, dancing in Cabaret, right.

And she’s under studying in Our Town and Fool for Love. Yeah, it’s like you got to work with who you’ve got and that’s what you do in summer stock.

Summer stock feels like perfect territory for you, though. I mean, we get all of these people pulled in as you do. And then they’ve got to figure it out.

Well, that’s my thing, right, confinement narrative. I love a good confinement narrative. And while I would never was an actress, and I certainly have never done any time in summer stock. When I was in my 20s and 30s. I used to go to artists colonies, you know, Yato, and McDowell and those places, and that was the energy that I was really drawing from, which is, you’re an artist, you’re there to work, but it’s also summer camp for adults can be getting all sorts of crazy trouble, and you do things you would never do at home and a summer feels like eight years.

I have heard some of those stories. And I assume that if those are the stories I’m hearing all of the good stuff has been withheld. I mean, my eyes get really big just thinking about it. Yeah, you do some very cool stuff with time as well in this novel. It’s very compressed in the present day. I mean, we’re clearly home, during the early days of lockdown, three daughters have come home to the cherry farm. Lara’s their mother, their dad is Joe. And I didn’t realize this until I was noodling around prepping for the show. But Emily is the oldest and then now you have borrowed the names of the daughters of your first editor from Patron Saint of Liars, right. Am I right about that? It was just a fun thing to see. But I love these girls, even when Emily was driving me a tiny bit around the bend as a teenage daughter. Well, yes, I am. And having been a teenage daughter who drove some people around the bend, right? It’s just very funny to step back and read it as an adult and be like, Oh, right.

People say to me, gosh, how do you write about kids? You don’t have kids? How do you do that? Like, okay, I’m not an actress. I’m not a cherry farmer. I don’t have children. But the kids are the easiest, rotten teenage girls, man.

We’ve all been there. We’ve all been there.

And we’ve seen every permutation throughout time of those girls.

But this particular family, Lara, Joe, and the girls, did they sort of show up fully formed? Or were you working off of Lara and riffing off of her story, and then other folks, because I know you start knowing the ending of a novel that I’m clear on, but when you’re working backwards, how much of the cast do you have? I mean, they’re a really great family. I cannot stress this enough. They’re really great, wonderful, loving, marvelous family that I think any one of us would be happy to hang out with, even when Emily was a teenager.

And I feel like happy families get a short shrift in literature. That’s, that’s a challenge and happiness in general, a challenge that I really work with, because I feel like the world is hard. And a lot of really terrific books. I read books all the time that I think I don’t actually want to hand this to a customer. Like I understand that this is brilliant. But I don’t want to say, you know, this is what you really need to read. How can you focus on what is happy and positive and still be realistic and still be writing literature? nobody shows up fully formed. I mean, I think about these people for years, before I actually start to write the book, you know, I always think of myself as squinting at something at a great distance, and then just really slowly moving towards it and thinking, what is it? Is that a bird? Is that an armadillo? Wait, no, that’s a heroine hold on, I can’t really see. And so it just, it comes together in time, not in writing time, but in thinking time, and when I finally get it all together, in my head is when I start, and I’ll tell you something very strange about this book and about Lara and my decision to make her the narrator, the thing that made me put off starting this book for such a long time, is I could not decide if Lara was the narrator or if Sebastian was the narrator. And it would have been an entirely different book because their plotlines would really have only intersected in this one place. It wouldn’t have been a worse book, or a better book, either way, it was just a fork in the road. And I had the hardest time choosing if I wanted to write the story of these two brothers, or if I wanted to focus on Lara, Joe and the girls. And the reason at the end of the day that I made the decision to go with Lara was because in The Dutch House that was narrated by Danny, that was a first-person narrator and a guy. And I just thought I don’t want to do this twice.

I get that, her voice is so clear to me. And it’s wild to me thinking that, you know, here’s this and Sebastian’s a great character, and I would have read that as well. Yeah, I’m just thinking about oh, and how she tells the story.

Yeah. Have you heard any of the audio book?

Not yet, but I’ve heard that Meryl Streep narrates it, so I’m very excited for listeners.

Unbelievable. Yeah, it’s so good.

It seems really perfect. First person versus third because the last two books have been written in the first person that’s what it surprised me.

That’s what it is. It’s first person versus third.

Did Commonwealth loosen things up for you when you sort of decided that you weren’t going to shy away from using some material from your, I’m not saying Commonwealth is like the most autobiographical thing ever, because if anyone has ever read your essays, you have gone very in depth in your own life there. But switching to the first person, whether it’s The Dutch House, or Tom Lake it seems like it freed you up in a way that some people might say, well, you’re only in this person’s head. Right that you don’t quite have the exact landscape that you will in third person. And yet these books, both of them fly. I mean, The Dutch House and Tom Lake they just really move in a different kind of way.

You’re exactly right. So when I wrote Commonwealth, which was a very autobiographical novel, it was the kind of novel that a person should write as a first novel. And I wrote it as like, you know, my seventh or eighth or whatever it was novel. And I thought I had always said, I would never write an autobiographical novel. So Okay, what else did I say I would never do. The last first person book I wrote was Taft, and that came out in 1994. So my first two books were first person. And, and to me, third person, and especially the omniscient third, which I finally cracked at Bel Canto was the Holy Grail. Once I finally figured out how to do that, I was like, I’m never going back to first person. First person was kid stuff, not for other people. I don’t feel that way at all as a reader. But as a writer, I just thought, okay, that’s too easy. And I want to do things that are harder. So after I wrote Commonwealth, and I thought, all right, I’ve written autobiographical fiction. Now, what else did I say I would never do well, okay, I said, I’d never write a first person novel, again, let me give that a shot. And I made so many mistakes in The Dutch House. And I ended up throwing it away and starting over again. And, and I learned a lot, but I learned that there just, there is a lot that’s interesting in first person, and playing with what other people don’t know. Because if you have an omniscient third, and you have the ability to go into everybody’s head, you know what everybody’s thinking. But in in that first person, and especially where Lara tells us at the beginning, I’m not telling him everything, I’m only telling them a part of everything, which is how we all function as humans, you don’t tell anybody everything, you shape your story, person to person. And, and so that was really an interesting thing for me to deal with. One of the hardest things about being a novelist for me, is a cell phone. How do you have narrative tension, if every person has access to information and communication with one another all the time. So you’ve got to kind of hoist the narrative over the fence of the cell phone and just to make a sloppy metaphor there.

But the serendipity that the reader gets to experience in Tom Lake is pretty spectacular. And watching these girls figure out who their mother is, and their idea of what the story that we’re unraveling, and I’m Yes, I’m being vague on purpose, because this is going to air on pub date. And I’m not ruining this book for anyone. But watching these girls puzzle out their mother, as a person. And not just as mom, right? Like, this is a big point in any human beings life, right is when you figure out that your parents are actually people.

Right? Right. which even you know, we don’t, even when we do, we don’t even when we figure out their people, it can be really hard to realistically consider what your mom’s life at 8,10,12, 23 was actually like, and that she had all of these choices that were independent of your life.

Did it make it easier in some ways to be able to keep everyone though, on the farm because one of the girls does actually want to stay, she is going to stay and she is going to run this thing with her guy. And it’s really wonderful to see because five generations of this family have run this farm which is getting more and more rare. I think. I don’t really know that much about small farmers, but it seems like it’s getting harder to do that.

It is like a drug though. I mean, you if you’re if you grew up on a farm, you come back to the farm, you really do.

But you’ve got these three girls, one of whom now Lara keeps thinking, Well, this one’s more like me than any of the others but I’m not sure I buy into that, by the way as a reader I’m not entirely sold on the idea that Lara, Lara is right about her daughters.

Well, no, of course not. The daughters are gonna be right about the mother. The mother is not going to be right about the daughters.

But how much fun is it for you though, as you’re writing all of this and letting it unfold, I just I felt a really, even though there are moments where you are talking about grief and the difficult stuff and figuring it all out. There’s a sense of play in this book. That is a little different. from their moments in Commonwealth where there’s a lot of play there, you know, Dutch House has moved. But pretty consistently, I’ve really sort of felt like you, as the writer were flying through this book as well. It worked from jump, but am I right about that?

What’s interesting is when I was writing the book, I was thinking, this is a happy book, like, I want to write a happy book, it that was absolutely my goal. And it wasn’t until maybe I listened to the whole audio book, that I thought, Oh, God, this is actually really sad. I mean, both things, both things are true. I mean, this is a book about climate change, and the pandemic, and a woman’s right to choice. And it I mean, they’re just all sorts of, racism. There are all sorts of very tough things in here. It’s also about loving, loving the people you love and sticking with them. I felt wildly grounded with this family.

Voice is always a thing that I gravitate towards first with a novel and just sitting so tightly with this family and sort of even when they’re bickering. Sorry, yeah, I just, you know, movie nights and all of that. And it’s actually dad who sort of kicks off the action unknowingly with a with a comment that he thinks is kind of sort of off handed. And then the children are looking at dad and mom and a whole new light. Yeah, but I want to come to something that dad says, Joe says, like, you know, I’ve had two lives. He had, he had an entire life and a different career before he came back to work the farm and actually his parents. were not the original owners. It was his aunt and uncle. But he was like, Yeah, we’re, we’re going to do this. And he’s very comfortable with the idea that he had this thing that he did, that he no longer does. And now he has the farm. And I’m wondering if Lara knows if she’s as comfortable with the idea that she’s had two lives as he is?

Oh, I think she is. If the question is, is she as comfortable with the fact that she is not an actress? Because I think that she really looks back on all of that and thinks it was fun. It was repellent. It was something that was great for your 20. It is Duke, you know, it was really a fun, hot mess for my 20s. And nothing I would want any part of now. I do believe Lara has no regrets.

Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. One of my notes to myself in my galley is that she has no real sense of nostalgia. And I think that could have been a sticky moment for the character and maybe even you, for you as the writer because nostalgia can be not always a very good thing. And she’s remarkably, I think, clear eyed about, well, I did this thing. I had a really good time. I did a lot of stuff that maybe I don’t need my daughter to know. But that lack of nostalgia was immensely refreshing. Because I just I wasn’t sure at first, I was like, Okay, I’ll follow you. I’ll see where this is going. But was that deliberate? There’s something you do at the end, where I was so pleased as the reader that that is a piece of it that you dropped in. And it was just such a great touch. But even then there is she’s just very clear eyed about the world.

You know, I think that’s me. I am not nostalgic. I had some great times. I did some wild and inappropriate things in my life. And, and am I glad that I did them, not particularly I mean, I just don’t think about it really just, I’m somebody who, who goes forward. And I guess, you know, I’m glad insofar as the past made the present. But I don’t ever look back and think, oh, boy, you know, what if never, never what if I have a friend who used to talk a lot about an old boyfriend, very, very happily married friend, but she was she would always, you know, in a private moment be like, Oh, I wonder. I wonder what it would have been like if it had been that guy instead of this. No, no, I have none of that. I have none of that at all.

Yeah, I am not at all like that either. And honestly, I think your 20s are just for you know, doing a lot of stuff and getting out of your system, and you get it out of your system and then the runway is a lot easier and a little bit longer.

Exactly.

There’s so many people, though, who seem to me, when they think of all the bits that go into memory, right, like, who remembers what, like, I can talk to my brother, and he’ll remember something entirely differently than I will. And I’m like, Dude, we were raised by the same people, you know, it’s, it’s wild, when you sit down, and he’ll look at me and be like, you don’t remember that. I got nothing.

I call my sister, my external hard drive.

That’s excellent. That’s really excellent. But watching the girls puzzle it out. They’re a little more active in there trying to assemble the story. Whereas, you know, mom’s just kind of holding her cards close. And that balance, though? How do you get and I get it, this is your job. This is what you do you create these amazing worlds that we get to sit with. But in terms of the craft piece for a second, you’ve got to balance all of these different pieces, and these different voices, and not give anyone short shrift. And I think that’s the thing that I always appreciate. And you’ve said this before, like you don’t write villains, right? You don’t write villains, you’re writing deliberately writing a happy book, and we will meet some wild summer stock folks. And then of course, do who we’ve alluded to. I mean, there’s a lot in this, but how do you give everyone their turn? as it were? Is that always just in service of keeping the narrative moving forward? Or is it I’m going to hang out here for a minute, this person?

It’s an interest in all of the people. It’s it is about balance. I remember when I wrote Bel Canto, there were so many people in that book. And I had a sheet by my desk, and I actually would go down the list of names every now and then and think, okay, has that person rotated through recently? Has that person come through recently, Commonwealth, another one, so many people, and it becomes a skill, it becomes a part of your muscle? And, and then you know, I get to a point where I don’t think about it anymore. I just know how to do it. There’s not a conscious choice. I am struck often, when I read especially first novel second novels, it’s a single parent with one child. It’s so often that the family is tiny, the world is tiny. There aren’t friends coming over. And I find my own life is very heavily peopled, and I think that most people’s lives are, but a lot of novelists don’t know how to do that. Right. And it’s, it’s just a skill and I like everything else. I think that once you learn how to do it, you’re not doing it consciously anymore.

Can we go to packaging for just a second because I was thinking about this as I was read. I remember when I got the galley for Tom Lake and it’s like, oh, this jacket. And famously, you commissioned the portrait of Maeve that is the jacket for The Dutch House. And it’s such a great painting it really, it’s a terrific piece. I love that. And These Precious Days features a piece of art by a friend of yours who painted your dog, Sparky, super dynamic and wonderful. But the jacket for Tom Lake is that an original as well?

No, a year ago last May, May of ‘22. My husband and I were in Paris, I was giving a talk at the American Library in Paris, turned a corner and saw that painting I was in the middle of writing Tom Lake, right in the middle. The painting is huge. It’s a decorative panel there, it’s a multiple section panel. It’s probably I don’t know, like 15 feet high. 18 feet wide. I mean, it’s huge. And I turned the corner and I looked at it and I said to my husband, that’s the cover of my next book. There it is, let’s go to the gift shop and get some postcards. And then actually went back and wrote the daisies in to the book so that it would work. I just knew it and the blank space where the title and my name is that was inverted. So that was at the bottom. And when they showed me the jacket, I was like no, no, no flip it. I want that at the bottom and they said It doesn’t work because certain bookstores have lips on their shelving and it would be it would cut off your name. And I said, okay, so they flipped it back. But I think that a lot of people that I know have read it and they were like, I was really surprised there weren’t cherry trees on the cover and then I got to the end and then I understood why you did that. But I am somebody who takes full responsibility for every single aspect of my publishing career and part of that is the cover. And at the end, what I love so much about the cover of The Dutch House, is the cover is part of the novel. So when you’re reading along, and you get to the point where Maeve is having her portrait painting, and then you just think, oh my God, that’s the painting, that’s the painting they left in the house. Look, there it is. There’s so much pleasure in that. And also in These Precious Days. Oh, Sookie painted that painting that puts a whole other level to it. And for me, this 18th century French painting by Gustave Caillebotte was the same thing.

You know, actually, it never even occurred, and I have read the book twice and cherry trees. Actually, I think I was so pleased with what the jacket looked like. It never occurred to me that somehow because also, I mean, you talk about this with the pear trees being terrible and there no leaves on them? And having grown up around apple trees, far and wide for? Yeah, trees can be freaky looking things when there aren’t any leaves. And this just, this jacket fits. It just it fits. Everything about this book. And you know, when you’re a bookseller, you think about this stuff, right? Like you think about this, I love this line that you have about writing the book that you didn’t see. And it’s like, why not separately? Not? Okay. Yes. Emma Straub is also a bookseller. Like, you know, you’re you’re not alone in this. But at the same time, I love the idea. Not that you’re responding to the marketplace, but you’re responding to the world as a reader and saying, Well, what would I like to see?

Yes, absolutely. And also, I think about when I was a graduate student, I went to Iowa when I was 21. That was a long time ago. But the marketplace, which is another way of saying the reader was just the last thing that you would think about, didn’t matter, you’re making art, you would never sell out, you would never write something that was warm, or in any way accessible or, and having a bookstore and seeing people coming in, they want to read, they really, really want a book. And, and I have I have such an appreciation for that it is possible to do both things. It isn’t possible to make art to deliver a great book. And also have it be something that people want to walk out with. I gotta take a second to talk about Demon Copperhead.

Yes. Please. I love that book.

God bless Barbara Kingsolver, because she took something that is impossibly hard. She took like, all of the problems of our country. And she found a way to make it into the most gripping narrative of a book that no one can put down. And also can deliver some hope. I mean, and I read so many novels, that I just think you’re brilliant, but you are punching me in the face. And so a book that is willing to tackle some of the big things that must be tackled, you know, you don’t want to be naive, but at the same time, give the reader an experience of being swept up in a boat. Did you by any chance read Such Kindness? Andre Dubus came out a couple of months ago.

I started it, it’s still ongoing. I love his voice. Townie is a book that is near and dear. You know, kids roaming the streets like packs of dogs. I mean, townie is one of those books. But Andre is one of those dudes with a really big heart. And it shows when he’s talking about his characters, and he’s talking about his world. Yeah, he’s got it going on. And I also quite liked his dad’s work.

But you know, Such Kindness and Townie is my favorite, Such Kindness is a book that again, I just think hats off to you. Because you are delivering a real a tough story in a way that I cannot put the book down. And I’m cheering for everybody. And you’re, you’re giving me hope. And that’s what we need.

I mean, I’d love to see art, that I love to see art that reflects where we are, you know, as a world, as a society as a culture, however you want to define us, it is tricky, sometimes, because you’ve got to be able to step out of yourself to, you know, every reader is going to bring their own experience, right to something. And I think heart is underrated. I think, you know, you’ve essentially said this, but why not have a little swing? Why not have a little soul? Like, why not have a good time? I do also believe that there’s a book for every reader. So you know, absolutely. We’re gonna find your thing. I’m just always really shocked when people say, Well, I don’t like to read. And I’m like, Well, you haven’t met the book yet. No one, you know, thinking back to Our Town like, yes, I was one of those kids who you know, Steinbeck was not ruined for me. And I had years ago when experience with Faulkner, where a title was chosen simply because there were no cliff notes. And I’m like, well, that’s kind of not the point. And also, I didn’t use cliff notes. But anyway, but picking like a minor bad Faulkner, which there are minor bad Faulkners.

And minor, bad Steinbecks too.

And, you know, and yet, here I am sitting in the studio surrounded by really wildly wonderful books, some of which I never could have imagined. Yeah, just step out of it for a second, you know.

I love finding the books that I call gateway drugs. It’s why I worship Dav Pilkey and Jeff Kinney. Yes, for writing Captain Underpants and Diary of a Wimpy Kid, you know, so when somebody says, My kid doesn’t read, well, you know what, they’ll, they’ll read Dogman, they will. And and then if you read a book, if you have that positive experience, you can go on, there’s a book coming out next week, that I adore Heaven and Earth Grocery by…

James McBride.

Who just gets better and better and better. But his book, The Color of Water, that is a book you can give to someone who has never read a book, give that book to somebody who has their PhD in literature, they will both thank you with tears in their eyes. That’s a book that if you say I don’t read, I’m not interested in reading. I’m like, Okay, let me give you Dear Sugar. Let me give you The Color of Water, you’re gonna read.

We’re talking about voice. We’re really talking about voice. And when I talk about Commonwealth and The Dutch House, and certainly Tom Lake, I’m talking about voice. And again, it’s not necessarily just because Dutch House and Tom Lake are really intimate, partially because the first person but voice like I know when I’m sitting with you, and you’ve written a lot of different kinds of books. But when I think of the last sort of three, I’m taking out the essay collection for a second, even though these brushes don’t happen. When I look at the last three novels, they sort of sit as a mental box set for me, just in where you are with memory and family and just playing with some stuff that I previously would not have expected. Just because I mean, if we look at the scope of say, Bel Canto or State of Wonder, what do you think is next? I mean, is this sort of the lane you want to hang out with forbid or have you just not started thinking about the next few weeks?

What’s so it’s so interesting to me that you say this because I’ve written nine novels. And to me, they hang in groups of three? My first three, my middle three, my last three, they are they are such a set to me. And so I do think whatever is next will be the first of the next three. And, you know, we’ll see, we’ll see if I can pull it off.

I mean, Zadie Smith sort of helped you find your way into The Dutch House? Yeah, Barbara Kingsolver. and Jane Hamilton helped you get out of some. I feel like I’m leaving someone out. There are so many people, but you have all of these sorts of influences. And I love the idea that you can just pick up the phone and hash out a plot point if you feel like. But Tom Lake is dedicated to Kate DiCamillo. I find lovely and it does tie back into what you were just saying about Dav and Jeff Kinney and whatnot. But can we talk about Kate for a second? I’d like to talk about it is a gateway drug also for a lot of folks and I just she does some very cool stuff on the page.

Yeah, she does. And also, I really sold so much Katie DiCamillo during the pandemic, when people were saying I don’t have any concentration I just cannot get into a novel. And I say, read The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane read The Magician’s Elephant. These are novels, and you can read them in an hour and a half grownups, and they are completely satisfying and the arc is full. And, and so sometimes, you know, when you don’t have the bandwidth to take Zadie Smith on, you can read Katie DiCamillo and you’re still in the game, you’re still interacting with literature. And the fact that she runs from picture books, A Piglet Called Mercy, Mercy Watsons, the Deckawoo Drives into the novels. And because we are really, really close, and she writes every day, and she writes all over the place, she works on a fairy tale, she works on a novel, she works on an early reader, she goes back and forth and around, always, always sort of like, building the foundations of society. That’s, that’s what I really feel. And I feel that for a lot of children’s writers, it is really the thing that I never understood before I owned a bookstore, the importance of children’s literature on children. I wasn’t much of a child, I didn’t read a lot of kids books, but to see that every single thing rests on those planks. And those people who are better people, I mean, I’m just blanket statement that children’s book writers, they are better people than the adult writers, the illustrators, they’re better. They’re like, you know how you can say firemen, they’re just better. And that’s how I feel about the whole children’s book world.

Yeah, I remember discovering that EB White had things for adults. And my head exploded. My head absolutely exploded like my copies of Stuart Little and Charlotte’s Web. I was less a Trumpet of the Swan person, but I am with my copies of I physically fell apart before I could pass them off to my little brother. Like we had to go get new copies, because I had just read them and reread them. And discovering that there were essays. I think I was probably like, 12 or 13. And I just, I was so excited. And just finding all of those voices, right, like the first time you read Baldwin, or Morrison, or Maxine Hong Kingston, and just all of these voices that you had no idea existed. Oh, it was wild. So can I ask what else you’ve been reading? I mean, you and I probably read on a similar clip. It’s part of being a bookseller. But at the same time, I’m wondering what you’ve been really excited about for the summer.

So right this minute, I’m halfway through Colson Whitehead. Crook Manifesto is so good. So good. And from the minute I finished Harlem Shuffle. I’ve been waiting for this book. I interviewed him last year. And I said, you know, when did you start writing Crook Manifesto, and he was like, the day after I turned in Harlem Shuffle, and now he’s halfway through the third one, if not more than halfway through.

Okay. Well, I think Ray Carney is one of the great, great characters, absolute modern legend, I just think he is I am so wild to that character. And it’s funny when you were talking about Commonwealth being the novel you thought you should have written at 25. Colson did a similar thing with Sag Harbor and that was his fourth novel, and he was like, Well, I guess I’m gonna write this book.

Yeah. And yet The Intuitionist the one I’ll never get over. Okay, this book, this okay. All right. Do Tell by Lindsay Lynch. So Lindsay is the buyer at Parnassus. Oh, my gosh, isn’t this interesting? This red, it makes my skin look green, I look like a Martian.

Ah, this is what jackets matter, my friends, and actually great jacket.

It is a great jacket. So Lindsey came to work for us right out of college, and went away, went to graduate school came back has been working on this novel. And it is like the bookstore has collectively given birth to a novel. And it came out last week and we’re so excited. It’s kind of a historical mystery thriller about the Golden Age of Hollywood. It’s a great ripping summer read. Oh, perfect. And it’s been so poignant. We’re doing part of book tour together. I’m taking her with me on part of my book tour, and we’ve done some events together. But oh my god, it reminds me almost in an Our Town kind of way of what it was like to be a first time novelist and, and to not know where you’re going and to, to realize that, like, the sea can cover you up so quickly. So, you know, I want to say just like as a public service, people go buy a copy of Do Tell and help out can one. It’s a terrific book and you’ll really enjoy it. But this is a first-time novelist who worked so hard, and I’m so proud of her. So Okay, now I want to tell you what I think is gonna win the Pulitzer this year. Okay. Do you know do you have any?

I you know, right now, I’m feeling like I have some ideas, but I’m not sold on anything yet. So I’m curious to see.

I’d love to know what your ideas were. Alice McDermott. Absolution, November.

Yeah, I can see that. I can. Absolutely, yeah, actually, that I can absolutely say because I was feeling a little sort of, like, where are we and not feeling like, I had the obvious, but now that you say that I flew through that in about a minute.

I mean, she blew me away, and I’ve read all of her books and love them. And this is like, you know, to the power of 10. Yeah, it is. It is unbelievable.

Without a doubt, without a doubt. Yeah, I’m still looking at everything that the Booker’s are coming up and national because we’re all of this and I’m sometimes you know, right off the bat and sometimes you think…

I read I read Demon Copperhead, you know, in and just said, Oh, well, you know, let’s all just go home. We know how this is gonna go.

Man, the voice in that book. Unbelievable voice in that book is so spectacular. And I mean, Barbara Kingsolver is pretty spectacular to start with.

But again, very, very, very similar to the situation with Alice McDermott, where you just think you’re the best. Oh, wait, no, you’re so much better than that. And I felt that way about Night Watchman. There’s Louise doing the best, the best, the best. She’s the best. And then here comes that book. And it’s just like, oh, I had no idea that the best could get that much better.

And I realized this is gonna happen. We’re bumping up on time. But before I let you go, Can I give you two books that I’m hoping that maybe you will have some time for well, actually three. So there’s Loot by Tania James, 17 century caper flick. And if you’re loving Crook Manifesto, this might be right up your alley. Really good stuff.

Do you know Sarah Hinkley?

I do, we have known each other a million years. I adore her.

She is the person who told me about Loot. I have a chance.

I promise you will fly through it.

You know what, and I’m going on book tour. And so that would be that would be great.

And then talking about books with big hearts and big ideas at the same time, Small Worlds by Caleb Azumah Nelson, he was a 5 under 35 for Open Water, but this book, and it’s tiny and it’s tight, and it’s London. And it’s woof, it is summertime and Caleb does something at the end of this book that you have all people all readers will appreciate. He tells a parental story in a way. I’m not giving anything up. But when you get to this piece of the book, your eyes will get very big promise. And then there’s also Temple Folk by Aaliyah Bilaal. She’s the short story writer who taught herself how to write by reading and rereading Edward P. Jones. And I have to tell this, this story collection delivers. Oh, it delivers it is so.

And speaking of Yiyun Li’s…

Yes, Wednesday’s Child. Fabulous.

I have again that some someone I have read from the get go and deeply love. You know, I’m my problem. And I imagine this is your problem, as well as once something is published. It’s kind of dead to me.

There is a little bit of how do I and also when you’re reading at a very fast clip, sometimes you don’t necessarily get to finish. That’s also something that there are times where I feel guilty about it. And there are times where I frankly do not.

Somebody was telling me the other day that they loved the new Richard Ford. And I had tried so hard to get a galley of that book. Never got one, never got one, never got when the book came out. I was like dead to me. I’m never going to have the time. Have you gotten a copy of James by Percival Everett?

Yes. Oh, can not wait. I’m so excited. I’m so excited for that book. I’ve been reading Percival Everett for more than a minute. I will say that and just the idea that, that his brain, his brain and his talent in this book I yeah, I cannot.

You know and again, talk about early predictions. That’s my prediction for 2024. Absolutely. It rewired me.

Yeah. Yeah. It is a book for our moment. And honestly, I think you’re right. I think you’re right about the Pulitzer.

Right, right. That’s, that’s my money. Alice McDermott in ‘23 Percival Everett in ‘24.

And both of those sounds really good. I may just stop, I may just stop fretting about sometimes I fret about prizes. Sometimes I fret.

You know, a lot of times I’m right about these things. And I, I’ve just gotten in the habit of I’m gonna go ahead and say it, because if, if they hit, it just makes me look smart.

There are years that I’m right and there are years that I’m so spectacularly wrong, I’m just kind of like a, but this year, I was fretting. And now I’m not fretting anymore. Ann Patchett, thank you so much for not just for the Pulitzer predictions, but really, Tom Lake is fun. It is this is a beautiful, gorgeous, sublime. I cannot wait for readers to get their hands on it. So thank you.

Thank you. It’s this was a great, great interview. And you know what, they’re not all great. So I really appreciate the time and energy you put into this. Thank you. It’s a blast talking to you.

Miwa Messer

I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and I’ve been so looking forward to this conversation because not many novels start with the main character well, getting hit by a bus straight up. I mean, Jimin Han, I’m going to ask you to set this up a little bit. And you and I have agreed we are going spoiler free in this conversation, obviously, because there’s so much great stuff that happens in your new novel, The Apology, you made a very definite choice. When you open to this book, and I’m going to ask you to set it up for listeners, please.

Jimin Han

Yes. And can I just blame my editor for that because Vivian Lee is tremendous. And I can say she takes the credit for that. Yeah, the book opens very firmly letting you know that this is a book about a big event. Jeonga is in Chicago, and she gets hit by a bus and so now she’s got all these goals. How is she going to still achieve them? Spoiler free. But how is she going to keep going? She’s 105. And we know that right off the bat.

And she’s come from Korea. She’s come all the way from Korea to Chicago. She has a reason for doing so. She gets hit by a bus. So you’ve written a tragic comic family saga. That’s also quite frankly, partially a ghost story. Yes, book is wild. This novel is wild. You do so many things extremely well, in The Apology. And I just I love these women. I mean, we meet Jeonga’s sisters, who are 108 and 110. What are the what’s the age difference?

They’re all like two years apart.

I mean, the ladies have lived. And the ladies have some very definite opinions, which they share with us. And they are very fun. They don’t mean to be funny. But while they’re funny. Oh, they are so funny. They are these women; these women are so they’re wild. And Jeonga especially she has lots of opinions about lots of things. And she’s not afraid to share them. It’s a very tight cast, all things considered, it is really keeping within this one family. But did you start with an idea? Or did you start with character because I mean, a lot happens.

I started with a feeling there’s a lot of, it really started with missing because Jeonga is missing her older sister, there’s four of them and she’s the baby, I’ve got two girls, two daughters, the youngest ones they have, you know, they’ve seen the older ones grow up, they’ve taken notes. They have a little bit of an of an attitude. And so Jeonga is the youngest of the four and she’s missing the sister that she’s closest to. So I started with that feeling of missing and wondering where someone you love might be in that. And that sort of, The Apology kind of grew out of that.

Yeah, I get that. I do. I mean, siblings? Yeah, there’s some great novels about siblings. And the way you talk about these women. Sorry, I’m just smiling thinking about these women, because they’re, they have no idea how funny they are. They have no idea. That’s part of the pleasure of reading the book. But so we start in the States, we go to Korea for a bit, we come back to the States. And for you, though, I mean, and I know you worked very closely with your editor on a lot of the structure of the book and everything else. But when you sat down, right, you’ve got these voices, you’ve got this feeling you’ve got these women, a whole cast is coming together. The structure though, it kind of keeps you a little off balance, basically, it’s like Okay, where am I now? Where are we going? Okay, this is interesting. So how much of The Apology is about the structure and the setting, as it is about Jeonga, and her sisters.

You know, there’s this feeling of missing and then there is what she wants and a lot of writers will talk about that right? Like, how is she going to go get what she wants, and she’s kind of happy where she is. And that’s been our thing about not going anywhere and staying in the comfort zone. So take sending her off to the States is part of making her uncomfortable. And I’m sure you’ve heard this with other writers talking about like, this is what you do you torture your characters. You send them off, and you try to see how they’re gonna respond under pressure.

Her sisters have a rougher time of it. I think, than she does. I mean, I do I felt her sister has a bit of a nervous stomach and it doesn’t seem like she has a very good time on this trip in any way, shape or form. Watching these women’s sort of navigate the US thinking that they know all of the things they need to know. And they have assistant, helper friend, surrogate daughter, she’s a lot of different roles in one for Jeonga. And so we’ve got these three older women, and show her who’s kind of like, literally fond of Jeonga, but she spent most of her life with this woman, but also ready to, like, have a life of her own. So there’s that conflict, you’ve got the siblings? I’m laughing through this entire thing. Because you’re not really, I don’t know, are you actually torturing them? Are you just saying you don’t know as much as you think you do? I don’t know if that’s actually torture.

You’re absolutely right. I mean, I guess the thing is to think about, I think a lot of times we might protect our characters, we love them. And about, you know, really letting them try to get what they want, inside of themselves. And the sisters, Jeonga doesn’t want her sisters to go with her. Right? So. But they’re nosy and they gotta go.

If ever there was a set of siblings in fiction, it would be these women. I just, you can just see them sort of picking each other. Wait, this is what I want to do. What’s wrong with you? But you start with the feeling? You’ve got this cast? I’m assuming Jeonga showed up sort of first out of the women, right? Okay, you’ve got the feeling. You’ve got her, you’ve got the setting. And then you do this thing, this high wire act that I really appreciate where you, I mean, yes, obviously, I’m talking about how funny this book is. But you’re also talking about grief and loss and loneliness, and isolation. I mean, Jeonga has isolated herself, in many ways, just from the decisions she’s made. She’s one of these people who’s like, Well, my family’s reputation is everything. And therefore I must, you know, carry the flag for the family. And those decisions have not served her well. To be polite. Wait, does that all come from that feeling? I mean, let’s map this out for a second. Because you cover a lot of ground and a lot of time. How do you put all of these pieces together and create a comic novel because humor is hard. We know this, like anyone who reads a lot knows that humor is really hard. And if you write you know, it’s even harder, right? So how do you do it?