Poured Over: Lottie Hazell on Piglet

By Jenna Seery / March 16, 2024 at 6:00 am

Piglet by Lottie Hazell is a taut and propulsive novel about women’s ambitions and the quest for fulfillment at any cost. Hazell joins us to talk about the process for writing her lush food scenes, the likeability of female characters, her writing influences and more with guest host, Jenna Seery. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Jamie.

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Jenna Seery and mixed by Harry Liang.                   

New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.         

Featured Books (Episode):
Piglet by Lottie Hazell
Supper Club by Lara Williams
The Harpy by Megan Hunter
Tom Lake by Ann Patchett
Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
The Vegetarian by Han Kang
Nobody, Somebody, Anybody by Kelly McClorey

Full Episode Transcript

Jenna Seery

I’m Jenna Seery, a bookseller and associate producer of Poured Over and today I am so excited to be talking to Lottie Hazell, who is a writer, a scholar, a game designer, there’s a lot of things going on. But her debut novel Piglet, is something very special. When I first saw this book, I was immediately enticed and drawn in by the title by the jacket by the vibes that it was giving me. But I don’t think I could have really been fully prepared for what I was going to find once I started. So I can’t wait to talk about this book, because I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it since I read it. But I was hoping that you could set up the novel for us a little bit and give us an intro into Piglet. Absolutely.

Lottie Hazell

Well, thank you for having me, Jenna. I’m just thrilled to be here and talking with you. So I describe piglet as his story of appetite and aspiration. And it follows people in the few weeks before her wedding, and a couple of days before she’s due to marry her fiancé, Kit. He reveals this terrible truth to her. And the book follows her as her life starts to crumble. And it’s very carefully curated persona that she’s made for herself and for her kit is really compromised by the information that he shared with her. And a lot of his crumbling has seen through the lens of foods which Piglet finds to be integral to her herself.

As I started reading this, first of all, I was floored immediately just by the character of Piglet, by her voice by the clarity and also murkiness of her navigating the world around her. She has these moments where she is so sure of things that she is doing. And then so many moments where I think as readers, we’re all like, oh, no, what is happening. But I think her voice is so strong, and I was ready to follow her through anything as soon as we started. So I wonder when you were writing this was her voice something that came to you first? Or was it the book at large that sort of cropped up?

That’s such an interesting reading of her because I think she is an authoritative person in that I think she’s aware of what she thinks is right. Whether that is the case, you know, morally or socially or whatever is a different case, I suppose. But no, she didn’t reveal herself immediately to me. The first thing that I wrote this book is the night after Piglet confesses, confesses, Piglet makes a carbonara from both and I didn’t know who they were, what their names were, or what happened between them. But I was really fascinated by this character who was inhabiting a sense of domesticity and who would continue making the carbonara no matter what had happened, no matter how, you know, rapidly their life was crumbling. And that just fascinated me the commitment to grocery shopping and the commitment to the daily ritual of my meal. And what had happened were between them. And I wanted to get to know what that was. So, yes, I didn’t know who they were to begin with.

I think it’s always so interesting. When I hear people say, oh, you know, this scene came to me out of, you know, out of the blue, and I had to write it. And I think that those scenes of that carefully curated domesticity, those moments of sort of shutting out everything else, and just focusing in on the food on the preparation, describing all these things. That is so specific, I’d never really encountered anything quite like it in writing. Because I think so often, when we think of these action scenes, or these scenes where we’re really like, propelling the plot forward, you know, you’re thinking of character interactions, or some sort of, you know, high tension, action, but yes,

Yes.

All those same feelings?

Oh, so I feel like for me, I feel like dinner is a place of high action, even if we’re completely without dialogue. You know, the way you know, the pepper is shoved across the table or the fact that someone’s not placed up a bowl or whatever it is, I feel like this. Like it’s such a rich format, I think the meal, but I know what you mean about not expecting so much to happen in the unfolding of what’s for breakfast. What’s for dinner.

I’m famously a terrible cook. I mean, maybe not terrible, but I’m not interested. I’m not invested. And so having those scenes sort of play out where I can imagine the care and the commitment to making these things it’s really compelling to read and especially the way you describe food, which is all at once. This gorgeous, luscious, you know, carefully created description. But at the same time, there’s something underlying a sort of, you know, unsettling piece because yeah, as forward we’re experiencing things crumbling, I was describing it to people, as you know, when you picture a really lush jungle, and the top layers really green, but there’s a little bit of rot sort of seeping under. Yes. That’s how I was feeling as I was reading these food scenes.

Yeah, absolutely. When I was writing, I always had in mind, kind of, you know, like a renaissance or a Baroque kind of face that looks astonishing. And then you edge closer and it’s starting to mold her and be, I think that’s a great synonym for piglet as an entire book, like, it’s about perception and, and actually what’s going on when you get closer and have a look.

And I think her character, too, is so interesting as a window into all of this, because on the surface, as we meet her, she is, in many ways, a very likable character. And I hate to use that phrase in general, because I think it has such a connotation, especially when it comes to women. But you know, she’s set up, she’s experiencing success in her career. She’s marrying this man from, you know, a high class, and you know, she’s just bought this house, she’s having her friends over. And yet, you’re waiting for that shoe to drop. And I think in some way she is too.

Yes, yeah, I also I am i so get you in terms of that kind of uncomfortableness with the term likable. And I just think it’s fascinating that you’re completely right that when we meet her, she has a very kind of probably unlikable. She has all the kind of traits and things she collected to make her a likeable character. But I think that’s interesting. When we progress in the partnership becomes maybe unlikable. Like, what is it about her that’s unlikable, besides some of her decision making? Like is it about a woman with an appetite being jarring or unfamiliar and I just find that whole the way, a reader from time to the text and assess piglet in terms of her if we like her or not an interesting conversation?

I think to setting her up in that way, right at the beginning, where we get this glimpse of maybe what her life has been, and what her life could be and what she thinks she wants it to be. And then as things unfold, to sort of go along with her, you really like locked in with her from those first moments where you’re like, Well, I just have to see how this is all gonna play out. Yeah. I think too, I wonder about this sort of aspirational piece that you have, you know, about women who have desires women who have ambitions women who have hungers for something, even if it is not tangible or not, you know, easily explained or easily gained, we still face you know, this sort of fear of what it is to be a woman with ambition.

Yes, yeah, that’s, that’s definitely part a big part of my thinking when writing Piglet is kind of ambition, and appetite, and how much is allowed? And how much of Piglet is, in the moments where she’s failing? Or she feels like she’s failing? Is that a woman made small by convention and expectation? Or are these things that she’s actually tried to grasp and then has been unsuccessful? And I think so often, it’s the former. And it’s the expectation of the self love the woman being like, that’s enough. That’s all you can have.

And I think, especially when it comes to sort of the other people in her life, there are several people who are, you know, saying, this is, this is what you should want? And this is the scope with which you’re allowed to want?

Yes, yeah, the scope of want, I think is like, it’s crucial to be, I think, especially for her family, where there’s a kind of a class difference. The aspiration, I think, is unimaginable for certain members of her family to think or how could you want something different, this one, you kind of maxed out the scope as you put it.

And I think that sort of sense of aspiration versus obligation is very interesting when it comes to her family and like to her sister to Kit, and to his family. There’s this sense of, Well, we’ve laid this out for you. Why would you want something different than this?

Absolutely. And I also think this she’s obligated to herself and her aspirations that she had at the beginning of the novel. I think that who was that sense of, Well, I’ve worked so hard to be on this path, and so join are still on it because to their off would be a waste in some way.

And I think so often, I mean, I know it happens so often for women, I’m sure it happens to people of all, you know, all genders, all experiences, that idea that when you realize what you want might be bigger than you could have ever imagined. There’s that fear to have. If I step, you know, off this path, what’s waiting on the other side? And I think she’s experiencing that. And I think so often. We don’t, we don’t represent that well, and literature and things because it is something that is not easy to capture.

Yes. And that word path, so important, because it is about, I think Piglet, a lot of her decisions that are hard for her here are about doing something that deviates from a path that’s been laid out for her not only by expectation, but for by, you know, convention,

And so many of those scenes in which she is I mean, I’m dancing on a some of the like, things that I don’t because there’s so some reveals, but these scenes where her hunger, metaphorically, literally takes her are some of the most incredible things because it’s like, that’s something I should not feel eight, so ready to connect with. And then you’re like, Oh, of course, I know exactly how that feels.

Yeah, yes. Yeah, I think it’s an interesting experience, where I was enjoying it as I was editing, as the reader to be, feel a kinship with her, but also a level of I was also repelled in some of those scenes as well. So it’s an interesting kind of, too dynamics to be rubbing against each other.

Especially in the terms of, as I’m reading, wondering how reliable of a narrator, dear Piglet is, you know, there’s the scenes that feel so high end, and so like, this can’t possibly be happening like this. And yet the responses from everyone else, and all those little pieces trickling around her, like, from a waitress in a restaurant, or a very stressful wedding photographer, that just, I want that character stayed in my mind so badly for some reason. But you know, all these pieces together, it’s like, Is this really happening? Like, I think it’s happening?

Yeah, I think the photographer is a particularly great character to highlight because I think it’s that thing of being observed. And the I think the wedding photographer is just a mad profession to be in anyway, like, you must see some stuff. But I think it’s interesting for especially Piglet, who’s so concerned with how she’s perceived to have someone there professionally, capturing and documenting and archiving her life. Yeah, it was an interesting one to play with.

I mean, you have so many characters that on, you know, they might serve like a dimensional purpose in the grand scheme of things, but you give them so much like, Kit’s mother, I think is such an interesting character, because she could very easily be very flat, and sort of to serve just to be that voice for Piglet. But there is so much more to her. And that it’s, I was so surprised to see how much piglet really cares for these people in a lot of ways, because I think it’d be very easy for her to write so much of it off, but she’s really connected in a lot of ways to the people around her.

Yeah, that was important. For me, I think, for I think when I’m writing, I always want to be depicting something that feels truthful. And I think that it would be easy, like you say, to make some of the supporting characters two dimensional, and we kind of get whether they’re, they’re highlighting class differences, you know, whatever the role is in the text. But I think it’s really important that those relationships seem like they’re grounded in a reality. And I think the reality is, you would try and like your mother in law, you would try it. Like if you gravitated towards these people, there will be a sense of respect and love for them. And I think that is more interesting than flattening those characters to try and give them a sense of that we understand them in some way, even if we don’t agree with them.

I think it allows us to not really dislike anyone in the book. I think there’s so many moments where I’m like, I probably should dislike these characters, but I couldn’t really justify it at any point. Maybe Kit a little but even then you’re still like, well, I don’t know.

Yeah. Well, I’m pleased because I think that I didn’t want to make anyone villainous, because I think it’s much more interesting when they’re redeemable qualities because when you’re failed by, when Piglet is failed by people and fails people, I think that’s a more interesting read. Well, I hope it is that, you know, they’re not just completely terrible all the time.

I think especially with her with Piglet’s relationship with her friend Margo. There’s something so special between the two of them that really grounds the book in a way to keep returning to that even when everything else feels very high end and crazy. and chaotic, that sort of undercurrent really brings things together.

I think I think of Margo, and their relationship was almost like picking Piglet’s back, but in in a way, like, like it keeps her very present. And I think that the way their relationship unfolds over the book, it’s not a relationship of contractual obligation. There’s no property or marriage there. But that’s not she’s not born into it. But she’s with her family. I think the relationships that we choose to have, and that people are Margo choosing to have with one another. I think of their own kind of special.

I really enjoyed the character of Margo, as we were going through, because, you know, in some ways she is that only voice of being like, what are you doing to Piglet, which I think we all have, like someone in our lives were there. And we are often that person, I think, to someone else do where you have to have someone who’s just going to be like, No, you can’t do that, even if you’re still going to do it. And it doesn’t, you know, change the shape of your relationship too much. But I think it’s interesting to have that moment where people’s lives start to diverge, when you’ve got people getting married and having children that you’re hitting these sorts of different beats, and you might be hitting them at different times, then yeah, people in your life.

Yeah, absolutely. I was interested in looking at that particular dynamic of Margo going somewhere that piglet couldn’t yet follow, and what that means for their relationship and how she thinks about not only Piglet, and Margo and the kind of direct correspondence, but also how that impacts the rest of piglets, relationships, how it makes her think differently about Kitt. And whatever’s happened with them, and how that factors in in the kind of ripple effect.

And I think it’s interesting to wonder, you know, I think the normal sort of expected path or you know, life plan is like, you get your job, you get married, you buy a house, you have kids, and she’s doing all those things. And the other people around her are sort of doing them in certain ways. But she is just so unsure. And so like, I thought it was very interesting that even though she has all these hungers, she’s not looking for a specific thing. We don’t know, oh, this is what she wants, instead of this. Yeah, sort of nebulous. Well, but there’s just got to be more.

That feels like a kind of a truthful way to read Piglet. And how does that and I also think that feels representative of someone that feels like they’re hungry for something else. It’s so rarely a tangible, okay, once I’ve got that, then I will be happy. And if it is, it’s unlikely that once that thing happens, that hunger is stated. But I’m fascinated by that cyclical satisfaction cycle of craving, building satiation, and then we’re looping back around again to something is building like there’s never a stasis there.

I think that reminds me a lot of Piglet’s journey, sort of with her wedding cake. And this sort of need this idea that she thinks if she can create this incredibly difficult cake that like somehow things will all work. And I think that we’ve all had that moment of like, if I can just make this piece work, all the other pieces have to just follow. And some of those scenes are like the most harrowing in a way that I was like, I think I had to pause while I was reading to be like, maybe I’ll just take a breath here.

Yeah, I’ve, I didn’t expect so many people just tell me that that those scenes made them sweaty. I was like, Never has there been a higher compliment than perspiration.

Yeah, I mean, truly, because those moments, the way you’re able to create tension in something that is, you know, on a face value should not be as terrifying though we’ve all watched, like, I think like cooking shows, or like baking shows where you realize like, truly baking is one of the most stressful things you can do. But in those moments, I was like, Oh, I get it, I feel it. And that’s why I will never bake anything. I was like trying to imagine how I would even have the like forethought to do some of the food endeavors that she sets up for herself.

I like to say in a kind of very tongue in cheek way I method wrote the book because I cooked all the things in the book alongside Piglet to try and get a sense of her. And to get a sense of the experience, but the passage that we’re kind of relating to some of her struggles on my own.

I think that that but we also need to hear about you know, like if she if everything she cooked went perfectly 100% of the time. I would be like that’s not true. That’s yeah, that’s never true, especially in those kinds of things. I think you could substitute so many like, I don’t know, creative endeavors. I think it is interesting that there’s this creative aspect to her to that. It seems like doesn’t get quite recognized amongst those around her that like, maybe she’s not writing maybe she’s not painting doing something that’s like, traditionally seen as creative, but she has this expansiveness to the way she thinks in these ideas. Like when she’s so concerned about how her parents will feel coming to dinner at their home that she creates this, like tablescape situation to make them feel more comfortable. And yet it is incredibly lavish, but to look not lavish. I just think like the way that she understands all of this is so incredible.

That is such a generous reading for Piglet. You’d be a good Piglet friend, but also think you’re so right. And I wonder whether that because I hadn’t really appreciated that being a skill of hers, whether that’s underplayed because it is a domestic is a domestic skill, but has no tangible value in a kind of capitalist patriarchal system, where it’s like, you can put on a nice spread good for you. But also, look at all the money I’ve made, or you know, whatever it is.

I think to in relation with her job where she is maybe trying to bridge these two worlds, with like, some degree of success, I think, obviously, there’s ups and downs, but it seems like she’s like, I guess this is what I have to do in order to monetize my passion, which I think is something people try to do so much now. Yeah. I wonder too, the way you’ve structured this book is very interesting. There’s a and I think something that lends to the tension building, there’s sort of a countdown in the beginning where we’re headed through to the wedding to this big moment. But the rest is sort of structured very interestingly to get us through like time is played with in this novel.

Yes, that was a really deliberate choice, partly to incite tension and sweat. And then also to simulate the feeling that Piglet might be having like at that moment, when things have been derailed for her how time might move in the huge gaps and then be very sluggish. And slowly, she might be feeling essential. Like there’s the structure evolves in the book. And at the point of evolution, I think there’s almost like an out of body experience for her going on. And we’ve kind of changed from a very rapid feeling count down to something that feels more like we’re watching a car crash happening.

It is not a long book there. You cram a lot in for us in the best way, like in a way that makes me feel like every piece is exactly where it should be. And everything kind of falls in the right spot. And as I was reading through, I was like getting closer and closer and closer and things were building. And I’m like, There’s not that many pages left. How? Where are we going to go? Yeah, just to the cliff edge, just Oh, no, I Well, you know, you have those moments. And when you’re reading, you’re like, is this book gonna give me what I need? And I think there’s a lot of literature out now. I think we a lot of people are coming to books force, a sense of escapism, a sense of, you know, to remove themselves. And I think that’s great. And those books often have very neat tidy endings. But sometimes you’re looking for something that’s not going to quite give you all those answers. And I think Piglet, she still has secrets, even when this all ends.

Yes. I’m not very interested in the ending. But I am interested in like, a satisfaction and what is satisfying. And for me so often that something was bittersweet or gritty or it’s not fully resolved. Yeah,

I think Piglet finds out just along with the rest of us that sometimes where you end up is not at all were you expected or wanted. But maybe it’s where you needed to have gone. Yes, yeah. As I was reading through and coming to sort of those conclusions and going along with her. I was wondering why we don’t have more novels that feature food like this. I think it’s so interesting that it’s I know that there are plenty of you know, novels that have food or have these scenes but it’s something so like primal and vital to who we are as people. Yeah. And it is also something that again, especially for women is so judged and monitored and controlled. But this doesn’t feel like you know exactly like those novels that are about self-image or connection to food. There’s, there’s more to it.

Yeah, I also, I wasn’t particularly interested in writing a novel about food, it just felt like, for me food is like a consistent undercurrent of character, and just has such vast potential for storytelling. But it makes sense to me to write Piglet in this way. And I think because she became once she had taken her seat at the table, as it were, she became such a clear character, to me, were a very conscious decision, which I wonder is, maybe that’s why that feels different. I don’t know.

It’s a novel where these things are important. And that because they are a part of her in her life, it’s not a novel about those things that also features characters on the side. And I think that that is an important distinction, as you read that. This is a novel of a story of a relationship of the end of something the beginning of other things that features these other things. And these connections. Yeah. So I think that it feels much fuller in that way.

And I just perceived it to be a language all of its own to, to play with and to write with.

Did this entire writing experience go as you expected, were there things that surprised you, as you were writing, as you were finishing revising all that, since this is your first sort of novel going out into the world,

The initial writing I think, went as expected, because it wasn’t a particularly interesting way to write, I turned up and wrote as many words as I could. But the edit was interesting to me, because it felt like the book has shed a skin in that the structure really came together, I really had a sense of what I was going to do with the ending of the book, whereas before, I’d been unsure what was going to happen there. So that was interesting, because the way I initially wrote was, I was in the driver’s seat, and I was deciding what was going on with plot. And then when it came to the editing, I very much felt like I wasn’t alone. The book was there with me making some decisions for itself.

I think that’s always a good sign when it sort of takes on a life of its own. I feel like you can feel a lot. When I hear authors describe those things you can sort of feel how much is soul that book has? Was it at all like, Okay, I have to ask about like game design and game development? Because I think it’s so interesting. And it’s not something I come across very often. So I wonder like, Are there any crossovers? Are there any similarities to like creating a board game and creating a novel?

I hadn’t even considered them to be connected? In my mind. I think that’s because I find writing to be very much a heart pursuit or as board games I find to be ahead pursuit. But someone pointed out to me that people it almost feels gamified in the reading. And that was so fascinating to be to think, yes, actually, I am trying to create experiences that elicit certain reactions. And that’s what I’m doing in both modes. So I think they have much more to do with each other than I once thought. But I hadn’t consciously made that connection until so it was like, there’s quite a lot of similarities going on here.

We do need someone else outside to be like, Oh, of course, of course. Yeah, I think I think there is so much in the way that you create tension and movement through the novel that feels in a good way of how you would move through a game and move through sort of an experience, like you’re creating those same road marks, and you know, pitstops and places that they have to be whether or not we see it as a connection as we’re creating. It’s coming from the same place.

Yes, yeah, I kind of grouped the work under the umbrella of storytelling. And I think what they have in common there is the importance of light and shade and, you know, typography along the way. Absolutely.

I wonder too, about your literary influences about sort of how you came to this book in that general area, or just some literary influences in general.

Oh, so many. I think it’s kind of like direct comparisons and sisters to Piglet it would be Lara Williams’ Supper Club. I don’t know if you’ve come across that on before has similar concerns, but generally, books about the domestic fascination. So Megan Hunter’s The Harpy is a great novel about its kind of magical realism and food centered fiction about how to be a mother and create a little at home and the stress of that and how that can be consuming, but more recently, I’ve been so inspired by Ann Patchett. I’m obsessed with Tom Lake. I keep trying to push it on everyone to I can discuss it with people. Barbara Kingsolver. I’ve just finished reading Demon Copperhead and I feel bereft, bereft is lack in my life now because of that novel has ended. And I’m just in awe of her ability to tell a story. I think writers that are interested in depicting relationships. I’m always inspired by Elizabeth Strout, but also who are looking to create larger picture. So, Stroud and Kingsolver especially I’m so impressed and in awe of their ability to create immensely rich worlds that are captivating. Every character is interesting.

I can see sort of those connections, and I can see how loving those things would lead you to this book, because the characters are so compelling in Piglet, and you just feel immediately like you’re like, Well, I’m in this world now. And even though it’s not a world, that’s innately familiar to me, in a lot of ways, you know, that, I’m like, well, I want to know, and I care even when I’m like, please don’t do that. Please don’t do that. I cared so much about what was going to happen to all these people.

I love that this internal rhythm of like, don’t do it. Don’t do it. Just don’t do it.

I mean, there were definitely some passages that I had to read a couple of times to be like, is what I am reading really happening? And also to be like, I wish I could skip the next 10 pages, because I know what’s going to happen. And I’m already sweaty about it.

Yes, yeah. Yes.

Do you miss any of these characters at all now that you’ve sort of committed them to the page and they’ve taken on the life of their own? Do you miss Piglet?

You know what I don’t, because I love talking about it with other people. I love it not being just my own. That’s one of my favorite parts of it being a published book now is to discuss it with other people. Because I’m so deliberately sparse, about Piglet, especially in terms of her physical appearance, about lots of her history. Like I don’t give huge amounts of exposition. So I love hearing other people’s versions of Piglet like who she is to other people and the other characters. So no, I don’t miss her. I don’t I’m happy for her to be gallivanting around in the world.

And I feel like she is there’s so much space there for her to be so many things to different readers. And I find that really special when you have a character where I imagine for you to to be like there’s so many versions of her out there that are connecting with people. That’s very exciting. Yeah. And especially with I mean, I can show up my my very well loved advance reader, but I love this jacket. I know in the UK, it is doughnuts. Yes. This sort of this package will draw people in and I feel like they can’t help but want to know like, what is happening? I was floored from when I realized that we were going to be calling her Piglet this time. I was like, alright, yeah.

I’m in. Yeah, yes. Yeah. I love the package to the moment my editor sent over I was like, yeah, that is that’s the one that’s exactly I think because it is so it has, I think the close cropping of the burger, like the texture treatment. And you know, the luminous mustardy cheese I think is gorgeous. But then the fact that it’s so much in your face, and it’s giving you so little room to move, I think is a wonderful, delicious, claustrophobic. experience I think captures and also so beautifully.

I think claustrophobic is a word that I kept coming up as I was reading but I was also like No, but it’s a good thing. I promise that it’s a good thing. Because once I think I read this in one sitting because I couldn’t stop once I started I just needed to know. And I think so many of our readers and listeners are going to be so excited to get to meet Piglet and to see all of the things that she is so Lottie Hazell, thank you so much for joining us here on pored over. Piglet is out now and I cannot wait for people to get their hands on it.

Well thank you it’s been absolute pleasure