CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, the hosts circle back to their series predictions and delve into how they think the series will play out after the Cavs’ Game 4 loss in Orlando.
More Cavs coverage
- The Cavs are struggling offensively and need to find their identity
- Donovan Mitchell needs to step up as the team’s star player
- The Cavs must make both tactical and spiritual adjustments
- Rallying together and playing to their potential is crucial for success Donovan Mitchell’s performance has a significant impact on the Cleveland Cavaliers’ confidence and belief as a team.
- Coach J.B. Bickerstaff’s job security is at risk if the Cavaliers do not advance in the playoffs.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands (00:01.234)
What up Cavs Nation, I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. I’m joined by Chris Fedor, Cavs Beat Reporter for Cleveland.com, and Jimmy Watkins, columnist for Cleveland.com. These guys got all the analysis from today’s game 4 loss for the Cavs.
112 to 89 and this is another horrible loss for the Cavs and Chris I want to talk to you because you’re in Orlando and I want to get the initial and immediate reaction from the guys in the locker room and what’s going on over there
Chris Fedor (00:58.634)
Yeah, I don’t want to characterize it, Ethan and Jimmy, as panic or anything along those lines, but it’s clear that the Cavs feel like it is now time to start looking at things other than just simple execution. This is a point in the series where it’s 2-2, best of 3, 3 games remaining, 2 of those at home in Cleveland, which gives the team a little bit of comfort, but players are talking about adjustments being made.
JB Bickerstaff said that everything is on the table at this point. Essentially everything is on the table at this point. Um, and I think there’s a belief that, you know, this, this offense, if the Cavs are going to win this series against Orlando, this offense has to find its identity from the regular season, which seems lost at this point in time.
And now the thing that we have seen is that series can change very, very quickly. Series can change based on location. The Magic looked like one team in Cleveland. They looked like a different team in Orlando. The Cavs looked like one team in Cleveland looked like a completely different team in Orlando, but there’s only so much that they can do on the defensive end of the floor.
The offense is such a problem right now that it’s having a trickle down effect to everything that they’re trying to do It’s also having a trickle down effect on their defense and Orlando’s offense if we’re being honest about it So I would expect I don’t know what the changes are going to be We can discuss those as this podcast continues to go the things that they should be talking about But I would expect Something to change going into game 5 and if it’s not rotational
If it’s not a lineup change, it would be a schematic adjustment that the Cavs try to make.
Ethan Sands (02:52.526)
Yeah and I want to let JimmieD get into his perspective from this game, but I want to just rattle off some stats first to give him some different angles to go to, cause like Chris said, there’s a bunch of different things that we can look at, but here are a couple different things. Donovan Mitchell had 18 points in the first half, he scored 0 points in the second half of game 4. He scored just 13 points in all of game 3.
The Cavaliers have scored 100 points in just one game in their last nine playoff contests, including this one, going back to 2023. Over the last two games in Orlando, the Cavaliers have been outscored 72-26 in the third quarter.
Ethan Sands (03:49.222)
just 7 points coming from Donovan Mitchell, Jarrett Allen, and Evan Mobley. Not to mention that the 3 point shooting has been abysmal and Max Drews and George Nyang are a combined 4 of 28 which is 14.3% from 3 point range over games 1 through 4. So, it-
is a lot to look at and not to mention Darius Garland has been a negative 49 in his last 63 minutes and Donovan Mitchell is a negative 40. Plus, Isaac Okoro in game 3 and 4 has played 37 minutes, 0 points, and only 2 rebounds and 3 assists. So, a lot to look at. But Jimmy, where do your, where does your mind go for this series in this game?
How does that affect your mindset?
Jimmy Watkins (04:50.399)
It’s, it’s the offense for me, Ethan. I mean, as different as the Cavs have looked in Orlando, the off, this is not a new problem. I mean, the offense wasn’t good at home either. And like the thing that, that would worry me if I were a Cavs fan is like, has Orlando just figured out how to use the Cavs offensive woes against them better at home in the way it’s the way some of these Cavs possessions are.
are spawning Orlando’s transition game. I mean, like Chris said, the Cavs can only play so much defense, which is crazy because that’s what we were saying about Orlando after the second game. It’s just crazy how much this series has flipped. And I want to piggyback off of what Chris, I watched all the press conferences, so I want to piggyback off the point that he was making about something bigger has to happen here.
Chris Fedor (05:27.405)
Hehehe
Jimmy Watkins (05:46.043)
Phrase that kept coming up in the postgame press, I believe Darius and JB brought it up unprompted, was that the team needs to come together. And that, that can mean a lot of different things. It’s never good when basketball teams start talking about we need to come together. It can mean, it could be as simple as we’re a little ISO heavy on offense, but reading between the lines here and in the context of some of the questions that were asked.
It just seems like the Cavs are using that as sort of like a buzzword phrase to slap onto. They are not handling Orlando’s energy very well. I mean, they actually started great today. They started great. They played really well in the first half. But the thing that worries me is that it kind of seems like they went into half time like, okay, we did it. We brought the energy without and then come to find out.
Chris Fedor (06:29.481)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (06:43.863)
There’s actually another burst you have to bring to start that second half. And I think that third quarter was the 72-26 that Ethan read. That’s the most damning stat to me. That’s when adjustments are made on the fly. That’s when the third quarter is like the best teams. Like, you know, who’s great in third quarters? The Denver Nuggets. You know who were great in third quarters? The peak Golden State Warriors, right? That’s what great teams do.
Chris Fedor (07:04.278)
The Warriors. Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (07:11.155)
And the Cavs are just so far from that right now. Chris, I wanna ask you, what are they talking about when they’re saying they need to come together?
Chris Fedor (07:15.806)
I think the sense that I got in listening to them, and I talked to a few players off to the side about this, because that to me was a comment that stood out. And Darius addressed it, Donovan addressed it as well, and the way that they phrased it, and this was the feedback that I got from other guys that I talked to as well, is that when Orlando started making their run, Cavs individual players started trying to do it on their own.
There were multiple possessions early in the third quarter where Evan Mobley was getting crucified by J.B. Bickerstaff. Shouted at specifically.
And look, JB is a loud guy, he can be crazy on the sidelines, he goes nuts on officials, but he went at Evan Mobley in a way that I can’t remember a time JB doing that to any other player, including Evan. But it’s because Evan gambled for a steal, and he missed, and he allowed Paulo to get a layup.
It’s because Evan was in the post working one-on-one when the Cavs were trying to run their offense. Evan went to like a turnaround jump hook with his left hand that had very minimal chance of being successful. It just felt like when Orlando was starting to make their run, when they were putting pressure on the Cavs, individual players were trying to do different things outside of the scheme.
That was the sense that I got. That to me is what they were talking about when it, when it came to not doing it together, um, because you did see that you saw evidence of that, you know, Donovan at times was trying to go one-on-one Darius at times was putting on a dribbling clinic and trying to go one-on-one and it was all happening as Orlando was putting pressure on the Cavs and when teams put pressure on you.
Chris Fedor (09:06.262)
and they start to make you uncomfortable, and they start to go on a run, there’s like a natural human element of, I gotta do something to fix this. What can I do to fix this? But it felt like the guys were going outside the scheme and going away from some of the stuff that was working in the first half, and it really sabotaged them, and it helped fuel Orlando’s run.
Jimmy Watkins (09:32.995)
I think both sides of that interaction really speak to...
the weight of this moment. The fact that Evan and some of these other players are going outside of their selves, that speaks to how much weight they feel when these runs are happening. And then JB’s reaction, the fact that he doesn’t do that. The Cavs are feeling the weight of the moment right now. And it kind of, again, as we said a ton on the last podcast, it’s one game, it’s two games, the Cavs still have home court advantage. Like if you told me at the start of the series, it’d be two-two.
Chris Fedor (09:37.122)
Thank you.
Chris Fedor (09:46.583)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (10:01.014)
Mm.
Jimmy Watkins (10:06.989)
Cavs have two of the last three at home. I’d still feel okay about my Cavs and six pick but these sorts of when Evan when you have players going outside of the scheme and outside of themselves and you have a coach reacting in a way he doesn’t usually react to things that to me is the signs of a team that the moment is overwhelming them a little bit right now.
Chris Fedor (10:25.294)
Mm-hmm. And that was my big takeaway from today’s game. And I think, guys, that was my biggest disappointment. Look, I asked every single person that I talked to following the game, what was the most troubling aspect of today’s loss? And I was curious how each one was going to respond, because not everybody views a game the same kind of way. One guy may say rebounding. One guy may say offense. One guy may say not enough three-point shots.
Ethan Sands (10:29.04)
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (10:52.682)
So I was just curious how each player was going to respond to that particular question. And for me, the most troubling aspect was that the Cavs showed a lack of postseason maturity. The kind of maturity, the kind of know-how that’s required on this particular stage, the kind of composure and poise that we credited them for in games one and two, right? When things were starting to happen in the first two games of the series, the Cavs had
Orlando made. They showed a level of maturity. They showed a level of evolution. It looked like a team that had learned lessons from last year’s playoff series against the New York Knicks. Today on the road.
when things started to go the wrong way for the Cavs. And Orlando came out of the locker room with a whole bunch of energy, a whole bunch of defensive intensity, forcing turnovers. Franz Wagner just taking over the game, going at every individual defender that was in front of him. The Cavs, the Cavs completely crumbled. It looked like a team that was panicking. It looked like a team that was very, very uncomfortable.
It looked like a team that was rattled, if we’re being perfectly honest. And when Darius Garland and Jaylen Suggs got into it, around the seven minute mark of the third quarter, it was a one point game.
Magic, they had made the run, but they were up by one. JB Biggerstaff called time out. He wanted to regroup. He wanted the team to come together. And Darius Garland and Jalen Suggs are chest to chest, face to face, nose to nose. And when Jalen Suggs went back to the bench, he said to a bunch of his teammates, what did I tell you? What did I tell you? Like he sensed something from the Cavs that they were about to teeter,
Chris Fedor (12:51.936)
And that’s exactly what happened. He was the final person that kind of like pushed them over the edge And it seems like all of the Orlando antics are kind of getting to the Cavs They’re not responding to them the way that you would want them to and I just thought today’s game on the road in a hostile environment with their with their franchise player Donovan Mitchell being an effective no-show in the second half the Cavs looked
shaken and they looked like a team that didn’t learn what we wanted them to learn, the collective we, what we wanted them to learn from the series against the Knicks. That was a very immature performance by the Cavs in the second half. Lost their poise, lost their composure, lost the game in a blink.
Ethan Sands (13:42.802)
thinking about them being up, the Cavs being up by 9 at halftime and having scored 37 points in that second quarter and then for the remainder of the game only scoring 29 and coming out and scoring 10 points in that third quarter is ridiculous. Like not talking about shooting, not talking about how the
Chris Fedor (13:51.15)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Ethan Sands (14:09.158)
ball wasn’t going through the hoop, just talking about the physicality, the toughness, the mentality to not go at anybody and be able to put the ball through the hoop, basically. Like when I’m thinking about everything that has gone on through this season for the Cavs, when Evan Mobley and Darius Garland went hurt and Donovan Mitchell was leading this team and at every given night, it felt like somebody was stepping up.
and you look at the bench roll today and they had four points off their bench before they started putting in the bench in the three minute mark and they only ended the game with
15 points off the bench. Like that’s staggering to me one and two it really does feel like the Magic are the Cavs Not only from earlier this season when anybody else on their team can step up and pick up the pieces Like when they’re trying to implement toughness and show that they are not this young team that can be taken lightly Like the Orlando Magic had Palo Bencaro go off in game three
Now they had Franz Wagner go off in game 4. And it feels like it can teeter-totter between those two plus the roleplayers that they had around them and Markelle Folz who we talked trash about in game 3 or game 2 because of how poorly he played on the defensive end and how they were able to isolate him when Jalen Suggs went out and then thinking about how Mo Wagner and his antics and getting the crowd involved and drawing fouls and
pushing people around and all of those different things. It just feels like this Cavs team is starting to hit a decline right when they should be trying to show that they are a different team from last year. And at this point, I don’t know which series would be worse from this year and last year for the Cavs to go up two-oh and lose the series or have they just got their butts kicked in last year’s series. And that’s the thing that
Ethan Sands (16:18.082)
worries me about what could happen for this Cavs team mentality if they don’t bring it together for game five in Cleveland. Because we know that the Cavs want to protect home court. We know that they struggle on the road in Orlando. So basically, it’s a do or die game in Cleveland for game five. And I want to get back into Jimmy, your thoughts on
how this team needs to rally around each other? Like what rotations might change? Who you might wanna see more of? Like we saw Sam Marrow, Marcus Morris Sr. and Tristan Thompson at the end of the game. Should some of those guys be getting more minutes?
Jimmy Watkins (17:08.379)
I guess, man, I don’t know. Like if you want to make a, if you want to make an argument for Sam, you know, get more space out there with Sam Merrill and in small, in small doses, fine. If you want to make an argument that Marcus Moore should be playing a little bit more over George and Yang because the George and Yang defensive Renaissance has a little bit, um, maybe overstated now that we’ve watched Franz Wagner, Franz Wagner put them on the ground with a spin move. And I saw Tristan was really getting after kneeing after that Jonathan Isaac
the third quarter, like, you can make that argument, I guess. But really what this comes down to is like, hey, are you guys built for this? This, we can make all the schematics adjustments you want, but, do you have, like, can you guys handle the swings of the playoffs? Because these last two games, the answer seems like capital N, capital O, no. And,
Chris Fedor (18:02.77)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (18:06.599)
I don’t really even care what they have to say about it at this point. They’ve spent a lot of time talking about what they, how they’ve grown from last year and they’ve been like, I really didn’t like Darius’s quote today after the game when he said that they’re not doing anything special. I wrote down part of it. Just come together.
Chris Fedor (18:21.506)
They’re not doing anything special.
Jimmy Watkins (18:28.587)
That’s all we have to do. And it was like a real dismissive, that’s all we have to do. We’ve been here before, we’ve had this experience before. So just watch the film and be better. Dude, you played five games in the playoffs last year and you got skunked. What have you been before? What experience, you have had this experience before of being punked, you didn’t bounce back from it. So like, I hate that. That just sounds particularly, if I’m a Cavs fan, that just sounds so tone deaf to me.
Chris Fedor (18:39.905)
Right.
Chris Fedor (18:56.642)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (18:58.175)
Like you just don’t, you don’t understand actually. You’re saying you understand, but you don’t understand. I’m sorry, I know your question is about adjustments. We can maybe talk a little bit more about adjustments right now. I just think it’s a spiritual adjustment that needs to happen. And maybe that’s as simple as playing it at home and on the road. It shouldn’t be that big of a difference. Maybe that’s what it is.
Chris Fedor (19:04.683)
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (19:16.11)
So I think adjustments has turned into a cliche in the general discourse, right? At the same time, I do think that the Magic made a really, really good one. Two really good ones, actually. The first one that they did was put Wendell Carter Jr. into the starting lineup instead of Jonathan Isaac. The next one that they did was Jaylen Suggs on Dottam and Mitchell. Okay, the Carter one was big, and you can look at his box score and whatever. I don’t think that tells the true impact. It was big from, um...
multiple standpoints. Number one, he’s 260 pounds, Jonathan Isaac is 230 pounds. Okay, so a physical advantage that the Cavs had gained in the first two games of the series disappeared. Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley could no longer physically dominate the Magic frontcourt the same kind of way, because Jonathan Isaac is not a center, he’s a power forward. So the Cavs had a matchup advantage in the first two games.
and they had a physical advantage in the first two games. And they took advantage of that. Offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, block shots, anchoring the paint, all that kind of stuff. The second thing that it did...
Is it moved Jonathan Isaac out of the five spot into the four spot where he can be the weak side defender He is an elite defender. He is one of the best defenders in the entire NBA Statistically, there are metrics that point to him being in the 99th percentile of different things So now he’s back in the role and in the position where he’s most comfortable where he’s most effective Weakside defender you saw that impact in the last two games
And it puts him on the bench where, yeah, it puts him on the bench where he’s playing against like George Nhiang and he’s playing against Isaac Okoro and he’s playing against these other guys that he can better take advantage of.
Jimmy Watkins (20:58.583)
He’s also making step back threes now. Sorry to interrupt you. He’s making step back threes now.
Chris Fedor (21:10.366)
And you’re right, he’s starting to make these outside shots that he missed in the first few games of the series, and he has shown an ability to space the floor. Um, so that is a tactical adjustment that has worked. That is a lineup adjustment, that’s a rotational adjustment that has worked. The Jalen Suggs thing, that’s worked too. So I’m gonna ask you guys, like, what is the lineup adjustment for JB Bickerstaff that he can make...
that can have the same kind of effect or a similar effect if there is one that you believe that Wendell Carter Jr. going into the starting lineup for Jonathan Isaac has had. You tell me.
Ethan Sands (21:52.722)
I think it starts with just also figuring out what’s being thrown at them. Like if the Cavs keep seeing blitzes from the Orlando Magic or Donovan Mitchell, I think we talked about it in the last couple of podcasts, being able to have
players on the court at the same time that can space the floor, whether that’s Sam Merrill and Max Struess, or Max Struess and George Niang, or Max Struess and Marcus Morris Sr. depending on the defensive matchup. Like, those different options thrown at you when you have blitzes and things like that. Like Jimmy said in the last... Go ahead.
Chris Fedor (22:25.909)
Okay.
I totally get where you’re going with this. I do. But listen to what you’re saying. Right? You’re talking about Marcus Morris Sr., who has barely played in this series, and you’re talking about Max Struce. And Max Struce has been one of the least effective players in this series.
Like isn’t the best adjustment these guys playing to their level, like Max Strews playing like Max Strews impacting a game like Max Strews, George Nien giving something off the bench, Caris LaVert playing like a guy who believed he should have been in the running for six man of the year. Like we can talk about all these different adjustments. We can talk about these lineups and these rotations and maybe try Tristan Thompson, maybe try Sam Merrill, maybe try Marcus Morris senior.
Jimmy Watkins (22:52.235)
Yes.
Chris Fedor (23:16.24)
players that the Cavs have counted on all season long and in the first two games of the series aren’t going to play to their standard, aren’t going to play to their level, then what are the Cavs supposed to do about that? How does that get fixed?
Jimmy Watkins (23:34.08)
I think-
If you look, if I’m trying to put myself in JB’s head here, he’s a defensive minded coach, so he would make defensive minded adjustments, right? If Max Struess is just gonna come out here and keep putting out these Tony Snell stat lines, it’s worth trying more of Isaac Acoro, right? Because he can, you can, that’s a guy that you can put on Franz Wagner or Paulo Banquero with more confidence slash hope that he can slow them down and prevent them from having one of these supernova games
Chris Fedor (23:38.77)
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (24:03.752)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (24:04.525)
have had respectively in the last two games. But again, I think Chris is right that the best adjustment sometimes is play better, even though it’s annoying when coaches say that to us sometimes. And like the Cavs are the big dog here. Like if the magic, if you make if you do something that disrupts your identity as a team.
Chris Fedor (24:14.804)
Hehehe
Chris Fedor (24:28.107)
Mm.
Jimmy Watkins (24:29.907)
this late in the series, I think that only feeds into the idea that Orlando already believes, which is that they’ve knocked you off your game. And that can be a powerful thing, mentality-wise. So like, yeah, man, I think you just got like what you know. It’s theoretical at this point, but like, you know that what you do works. You just have to do it better.
Chris Fedor (24:39.788)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (24:58.842)
So on that context, I think we’re talking a lot about talking about things and I think the execution is what has been lacking this entire series for everybody on the Cavs to be frank and I think Donovan Mitchell is at the forefront of that. He’s talked about, I gotta be better, I gotta do this, it starts with me. And other than in game three, he started every game pretty well. But in game four, he went basically...
away in the entire fourth and third and fourth quarter. So just what does it take for a guy like Donovan Mitchell, who is the star player, the franchise player, the player that could potentially change everything the Cavs have going on in two seasons when his contract ends or next year if the Cavs decide to trade him because he doesn’t seem happy with how the franchise
deals with playoffs, like what do you need from him when he’s not being successful? Cause I know we’ve talked about Donovan Mitchell is on every given night supposed to be the best player on the floor, but right now he doesn’t even look like the best player on the Cavs to be fair. Jarrett Allen does!
Chris Fedor (26:17.538)
Well that’s a problem. Like it’s not something where you say however you want to qualify it when it comes to Donovan. Nuh-uh. Nope. This is the playoffs. This is not the Knicks. This is the Magic. Okay? This is where you need to show why you’re one of the best players in the NBA. If you want to be one of the best players in the NBA, if you want to be regarded as such, you gotta do it here, now, on this stage.
on the road when your team needs you the most. It’s not about like trying to impact the game in a variety of different ways. Like, yeah, of course it is. But this team needs Donovan Mitchell to score the basketball. That’s how they’re constructed.
And especially when somebody like Karras Levert is struggling and George Niang can’t hit anything and Max Struce is basically MIA on the offensive end of the floor. This is where Donovan Mitchell needs to grab the game by the balls and be Donovan freaking Mitchell. And if he’s not...
Okay, if he’s not then he’s going to get the criticism and he deserves that level of criticism because there is a star Standard that we hold other stars to and we need to hold down an omission to the same one He cannot be five of 14 and one of four from three point range and score 18 points
in a game four that the Cavs absolutely needed to get in a game that was there for their taking going into the second half. He can’t take four shots in the second half. He can’t miss every shot he takes in the second half. He cannot go scoreless in the second half of a game where things are starting to teeter, where the Cavs offense was completely malfunctioning. Like he needs to save that. And I think we can say this.
Chris Fedor (28:07.106)
JB Bickerstaff as a coach needs to do a better job of making things easier on the team more offensively. JB Bickerstaff as a coach needs to do a better job of finding a way to create more quality three point looks. 17 for this team that averages about 37 in the regular season? Uh uh.
That’s not good enough. So, we can say that JB needs to try and make it easier on Donovan and easier on this offense, and he needs to put his guys in a better position to be successful. That’s fine. That’s all fair. We can all admit that. Jamal Mosley has done a better job at that in the last two games than JB has in the last two games. But Donovan Mitchell got to play better. Period point blank.
Like, why did most people pick the Cavs to win the series last year against the Knicks? The people that did pick the Cavs? It’s because they felt like Donovan was going to be the best player in that series. That he was the trump card for the Cavs. Got outplayed by Brunson. Why did people pick the Cavs in part to win this series against the Magic? Because there was a belief that the Cavs going into the series had the best player. And it was Donovan. And that was their trump card.
Chris Fedor (29:21.676)
Ben Carragher outplayed him in game three and Franz outplayed him today in game four. If the Cavs are going to have a consistent fighting chance to win this series, Donovan needs to be the best player again. Donovan needs to be better than what he was today and what he was in game three and there are certainly circumstances tied into his struggles. But uh-uh, not this time of year.
Ethan Sands (29:46.162)
Tooting.
Two things before Jimmy hops in, because I definitely want to get his perspective as well. I know we talked about when Donovan Mitchell is not playing as well as a scorer that he needs to pass the ball and be able to facilitate and get his other teammates involved. Yes, Chris is absolutely right, he needs to score the ball. But if he is trying to facilitate, he can’t also have six turnovers with six assists. Like that’s not allowed. That’s not-
even close to being good enough, and also he’s being outscored by Franz Wagner for the entire series now. So he’s being outplayed by Franz Wagner not just in game 4, but into this entire series to be frank. So Jimmy, I want to get yours perspective on everything and we’re definitely going to get into more on JB Biggerstaff as this podcast progresses.
Jimmy Watkins (30:37.451)
That Franz Wagnerstad took me out, man. Wow. Outscored for the series, man. This is not, it’s not, no duh, Donovan should be the best player in this series. That should be like the bare minimum. You’re playing against a bunch of children, essentially. The Magic are all making their playoff debut. At least the guys who are the major contributors, right? And it’s not even just the star standard. We should be holding them to that. But what did he tell you before the series, Chris? He wants to be the face of the league.
Chris Fedor (30:41.054)
Yeah, so far.
Chris Fedor (31:02.335)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (31:04.683)
He wants to be the face of the league. Face of, we’re talking, that’s Kevin Durant air, that’s LeBron James air, that’s Steph Curry, that’s these guys who are fading out. We’re looking, there’s like a hole in the zenith now. Who’s the next guy? Donovan wants to be that next guy. You know what those, like, those guys would be getting these kinds of questions for like 30 points on bad efficiency. That’s what a bad night is for a face of the league kind of guy. Donovan Mitchell.
Chris Fedor (31:30.93)
Mm.
Jimmy Watkins (31:34.467)
scoreless in the second half, four shots! Where, yeah, look, we should, again, there’s, there are circumstances at hand. The Magikar have been guarding him more aggressively as the series progresses. His teammates aren’t hitting shots. There’s a lot going on here, but to Chris’s point, the, the higher you aspire to climb in this league, the less you get the benefit of context. It really comes down to, did you get the job done?
And I think that we have sort of, throughout his career, kind of had a misunderstanding of who Donovan Mitchell is in the playoffs. I’ve talked about this on the pod before.
Chris Fedor (32:14.926)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (32:17.087)
Don Mitchell has two playoff runs in his career where he has posted an effective field goal percentage over 50%. It’s the bubble run with Utah in 1920 and like the pseudo bubble run the next year where I think we all like, I don’t know that we’ve done a ton of science on it, but we all kind of are like, it was, you know, emptier arenas. There were some outlier shooting performances at large during the Paris.
Jimmy Watkins (32:47.061)
Lakers championship run, my guy has just never approached that percentage since then. Jamal Murray is a very good playoff basketball player. He wasn’t putting up 50 every other night like he was during that series against Utah when him and Donovan had that classic series. Beyond that, he’s been an underwhelming playoff performer in terms of scoring efficiency, which is his primary gift as a superstar. He’s a scorer.
That’s what Chris said. That’s what the Cavs brought him here to do. If it feels like some of the guys are looking at you right now, Donovan, and saying, save us, it’s kind of your job and you’re not doing it. So we’re gonna let you hear about it.
Chris Fedor (33:16.396)
Thank you.
Chris Fedor (33:22.102)
So if we’re talking about trying to make things easier on Donovan, this is where I think I start. And admittedly, this becomes complicated because of the opponent that the Cavs are playing against and how good they are defensively, how much size they have. And this is also complicated because one of the guys that I’m about to suggest just hasn’t been playing very well. But I think Donovan is still being limited by his knee issue. I think he’s having a hard time.
dealing with Jalen Suggs and his constant activity, his constant physicality, his constant grabbing, his constant pressure. And I just think the Cavs need to help out Donovan. Create space for him that he can’t create for himself. Right, give him a level of freedom on the offensive end that he just does not have right now.
And to me, I think JB has to try going into game five. He has to try more Donovan Mitchell, Max Drew, Sam Merrill, three man combinations. Because if you have Max and you have Sam out there together, and it’s weird because I feel like, and I don’t have the numbers on this, I have to do the research on it, but it feels like in the games where Sam has played, it’s been with Darius, not with Donovan.
Again, I have to do the numbers on that. But if you put Sam and Max and Donovan together, and this means Darius on the bench for stretches, there’s just a level of attention that Max Struz commands, and Sam Merrill commands too, just by reputation, just by skill set.
that I think could help out Donovan Mitchell. I think it could create more driving lanes for him to get all the way to the basket. I think it could take some pressure off of him on the offensive end of the floor. I think the eyeballs, the majority of the eyeballs that are focused on him, some of those eyeballs have to go toward Max, they have to go toward Sam. And I do think if that starts to unlock Donovan and make things easier on him.
Chris Fedor (35:27.894)
You know, guys in this locker room have talked about it a lot. They’ve talked about the Donovan Mitchell effect guys. There is a level of swagger that this team plays with when Donovan is Donovan. Right? There’s a level of belief that comes with Donovan being Donovan. MVP candidate, Donovan Mitchell. There’s a trickle-down effect to everybody on the roster.
When Donovan’s not right, when Donovan’s frustrated, when Donovan is not scoring, when he’s not getting shot attempts, when he’s not the engine of this offense, there’s like an emotional letdown that is felt across the entire roster. And I think you see it every time Donovan has one of those off nights. He did in game three, he did in game four, and it just has a trickle down effect on the rest of the roster.
It’s kind of like, oh bleep, we don’t have him. Where are we gonna go? What are we gonna do? And if things become easier on Donovan and he has success, I think you are going to see the Cavs feed off of that. They feed off his energy, they feed off his positivity, they feed off his dominance. And I think playing him with Max and Sam.
I think that helps lift Donovan up, and I think that helps lift the Cavs offense up. Now look, you can’t do that for extended stretches. We understand that because there are limitations that Sam and Max have together defensively. Like one of those guys is gonna have to check Franz. But I think in short bursts, that could really give this offense a boost.
Ethan Sands (37:14.082)
Right, and that’s what I was trying to say earlier about the adjustments rotationally and having Max and Sam together. And yeah, you hit on it. Just having the space and allowing them to just take eyes away from Donovan because of their shooting prowess will allow Donovan to do what he needs to and then uplift the team at the same time. But I think we should get to JB Biggerstaff to end this podcast because I know we want to wrap up shortly. And I feel like...
Chris Fedor (37:36.439)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (37:44.29)
It’s fair to say, we knew that if J.B. Bickerstaff and the Cleveland Cavaliers did not get out of the first round, there was a good chance that J.B. Bickerstaff was going to lose his job this coming off season. Now, looking at a 2-2 series lead, and I don’t know if it matters whether or not they win the series. But if they don’t win on in game five.
Chris Fedor (37:52.908)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (38:14.114)
at home after everything they’ve seen, I think it could be really hard to see, to talk about J.U. Bigger Staff returning to the staff next season. Does anybody have any thoughts on that because that feels like a bigger picture issue.
Chris Fedor (38:28.942)
So here’s the thing that I think becomes difficult when it comes to the JB conversation. Because I do think there are adjustments that he needs to make. Rotationally and schematically. And I do think that there are plenty of areas where he has come up short as a playoff tactician, including in the series against the Magic. JB’s 0-8 on the road in his playoff series as a head coach. Think about that. That’s first and foremost. But!
Here’s the thing that makes it difficult. JB’s job is on the line. Think everybody knows that? Think JB knows that. I think when your job is on the line, you have to be convicted in the things that you do, right? You have to be true to yourself. You have to be true to your beliefs. And you have to believe it deep down that it’s the right thing for your basketball team, okay?
And the one thing that I like about JB is that he believes in this eight man rotation. Like that is his thing. That has always been what has made him most comfortable. So if you’re in a playoff chess match, you have to do what makes you most comfortable. You have to do what you think is best for the team. So on one hand,
He has to have a level of conviction, the same level of conviction that he has had in these first four games. On the other hand, he has to be open to different ideas and different changes. But some of the changes that I think he would want to implement, and some of the changes that I think the fans would want him to implement, are made harder.
by a guy who’s sitting in Cleveland nursing a knee injury and may not return in this series. And it doesn’t mean that Dean Wade is the magic elixir and the Titanic sinks because Dean Wade’s not there. Like I’m not saying that, but like if you wanna shoot more threes, Dean playing the power forward spot helps you do that, right? If you wanna play quote unquote smaller lineups, quote unquote four out lineups, Dean Wade helps you do that.
Chris Fedor (40:45.034)
If you want to focus more on being a better rebounding team, Dean Wade helps you do that because he’s a better rebounder than George Neang, just ask Tristan Thompson from earlier today. Right, like if you want to do these various things, when it comes to your rotation and your lineups and your style, you have to believe that you have the pieces to do those things, right?
And I’m not 100% convinced, and I don’t know that JB is 100% convinced, that he has the pieces to implement those stylistic changes that people are going to be calling for over the next couple of days. Does that make sense?
Jimmy Watkins (41:30.943)
It makes, it does make sense. Here’s what I’ll say though. Dean Wade is, I agree with you Chris, he’s like the, this porridge is too hot, this porridge is too cold. This one’s just right. Dean Wade lets you do both, right? He lets you do both. Dean Wade can, like if you’re, if you wanna, oh, if I take one of the bigs out for George Nieheng, does our defense suffer a little bit? Oh, if I keep, if I put one of the, both the bigs on the court, does that hurt our space a little bit? Dean Wade, like Chris said,
Ethan Sands (41:31.45)
100%.
Chris Fedor (41:43.998)
Yeah. Right.
Chris Fedor (42:00.811)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (42:00.927)
can answer both of those questions and make JB, and has done it long enough, that’s the other thing, has done it long enough where JB can feel confident in him. I just didn’t think we’d be talking about this during the Magic series, man. I just, I think that this, I viewed this as a Celtics issue and from JB’s perspective, again, to Chris’s point, part of the Donovan thing’s on Donovan, part of it’s on the coaching, you could...
Chris Fedor (42:12.499)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (42:28.843)
You can help your superstar in those situations. I just feel like if I’m JB, I’m like, this was working. This was working after the first two games. And then my team, then my team got on a plane and I don’t know what happened to it. Now that’s a pretty unconvincing argument. If you’re talking to Kobe Altman, then that’s what you’re saying. And if you’re like, again, well, I agree. Dean Wade can solve a lot of problems for this team.
Chris Fedor (42:34.722)
Yeah.
Yep.
Chris Fedor (42:47.113)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (42:59.219)
If I’m JB Bickerstaff, that’s not what I’m trying to tell Kobe Altman, hey, I don’t have a lot of confidence in the rest of this roster. Buddy, I built the roster. What are you trying to say to me right now? What are you trying to say to me? I thought we had all we needed.
Chris Fedor (43:04.277)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Fedor (43:08.793)
What do you think of that?
What do you think about them trying to go smaller? I’m curious on your thoughts.
Jimmy Watkins (43:18.459)
I don’t hate it. Look, Orlando’s offense is bad enough. Look, I should say, I can’t laugh at it anymore because they’ve scored 100 points in two straight games. I don’t know what the, right. I don’t know what, the Orlando Magic, it probably have like a, maybe even an above league average offensive rating, which is something that like, it is ingrained in the Orlando Magic’s DNA to be bad at offense. So kudos to them. But.
Chris Fedor (43:27.87)
yeah first team in the series score 100
Chris Fedor (43:40.849)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (43:45.415)
Right now it is abundantly clear to me that the Cavs’ bigger problem is offense, and again, I think Orlando can revert something closer, if not all the way, to what they were in the first two games of the series when they were bright-eyed and bushy-tailed in the playoffs. But like, some of Orlando’s offense is going to take care of itself.
Markel Folt isn’t gonna score double-digit points probably in the road games in this series as he did in the last two home games. Jonathan Isaac isn’t going to probably make step back threes. Right, what is a step back three? I couldn’t believe Jonathan made a step back three today. Yeah, I think it’s time to start. I know, like you said, when your back’s against the wall, you gotta ride on the horse you came in on to a certain extent. But your horse is limping.
Chris Fedor (44:08.319)
Right.
Chris Fedor (44:12.598)
He’s not making four threes. No.
Jimmy Watkins (44:33.867)
and it’s not as fast as it looked at the beginning of the race. So maybe we have to, I don’t know how to continue this analogy, trade, switch up the way you’re preparing the horse for the race, maybe a little bit, and help your team. Like, because here’s the thing, if an offensive adjustment works, like really works, I don’t know that the magic can match it, because even at their best, they are a limited offensive team. If you stick with defense, like Orlando
Chris Fedor (44:50.967)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (45:02.783)
Orlando can, that’s where they wanna live. They wanna play a muck it up kind of game. And even though like we, the Cavs were dominating the series after two games, they never trailed. Like, it wasn’t like this. It didn’t look like this. So I did, yeah, there’s definitely room for some smaller lineups, put more shooters on the floor.
Ethan Sands (45:22.318)
I mean when we talked about the first two games and we talked about how potent the Cavs defense was holding them to 86 and 83. Now the Cavs have scored 89 and 83 over the last two games and then they have allowed over 100 points in both games. So not only has the offense that we talked about being an issue.
Chris Fedor (45:36.77)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (45:49.254)
continue to be an issue and now got stopped on the road basically has now the defense also become an issue and have been something that the Cavs have not been able to lean on as they did the entire regular season. And I want to end the podcast with this. You talked about J.U. Baker’s out talking to Kobe Altman and then there are now fans calling for Kobe Altman’s removal. So there’s a whole lot going on.
the Cavs and I just we have to see what happens in game five. Game five feels like... What do you say?
Chris Fedor (46:22.698)
No, I want- I wanna know Ethan from you if you think going small is viable.
Ethan Sands (46:32.866)
I think it depends on who they have on the floor. If they run the Jonathan Isaac Five, if they play small, then sure playing small works. But I don’t think, I think if they go with Moe Wagner, Franz Wagner, and Paolo Bencaro in a lineup, and you try to play small against that, that we’ve shown, that the Cavs have shown with Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley on the floor that they haven’t been able to stop that. I have doubts.
Chris Fedor (46:54.635)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (46:59.706)
that the Cavs small ball team would be able to match offensively what they would need to be giving up on the defensive end.
Chris Fedor (47:08.118)
So I think that’s a really good point. I think when the magic goes small ball, it’s not really as small ball. So think about it from the Cavs perspective. Let’s say it’s Donovan, Karras, Max, Isaac, and Jarrett. That would be one of the variations of it. Or it could be.
could be Donovan, it could be Struce, it could be Sam Merrill, it could be Okoro, it could be Alan. If you’re talking about Small Ball, your four is either going to be Isaac...Carrus? Or...Max? Right?
Ethan Sands (47:52.091)
Max.
Jimmy Watkins (47:54.039)
That could be Niang if he ever starts making shots, right?
Chris Fedor (47:55.999)
Oh yeah.
Ethan Sands (47:57.986)
That’s not small. That’s like, that’s their regular backup for.
Jimmy Watkins (48:00.287)
Well, the idea of small ball, it’s space ball. We’re looking for space ball here.
Chris Fedor (48:01.802)
Yeah, Spaceball 4 out, whatever. Um, but I didn’t include Niang because everybody wants to see him benched anyway, so we’re trying to figure out like solutions to fixing the theoretical problems that the fans have come up with. All right. So if you’re talking about the Cavs using that kind of lineup.
Ethan Sands (48:04.422)
There you go. Okay.
Jimmy Watkins (48:12.619)
Heard that. Heard that.
Chris Fedor (48:29.43)
Jarrett Allen’s the tallest one of that group a Six foot nine that’s what he’s listed at six foot nine. I think he’s more like six eleven The rest of the players are all six foot five six foot five or under so like To me it’s hard to go small ball against a team that can go small ball with six foot ten guys
Ethan Sands (48:37.742)
No chance. Yeah, about to say, no chance.
Ethan Sands (48:58.157)
Right.
Chris Fedor (48:58.41)
Like, Franz is 6′10″, right? Paolo is 6′10″. Yeah. You know, Gary Harris has more size than Donovan Mitchell. He’s just as big as Isaac Okoro and Max Struce. Jalen Suggs has size on him. Joe Ingalls is a tall dude. So it’s like, the magic would just counter.
Ethan Sands (49:05.862)
6-eleven. Yeah.
Chris Fedor (49:25.81)
and like their theoretical four man and their theoretical three man would still have an advantage and they’d be quick enough and athletic enough to hang with the smaller guys from the Cavs out on the perimeter so i’m with you even like i’m not 100 sure how much the Cavs would gain in that theoretical setup because i think i think the magic
can do small ball space ball, whatever you want to call it, better than the Cavs can do small ball. I think the Cavs can do big ball a little bit better than the Magic can do big ball. If Jarrett and Evan are playing well together like they did in the first two games.
Ethan Sands (50:01.237)
I’m, I’m...
Ethan Sands (50:11.586)
Yeah, and I really do think, like, I know you mentioned Dean Wade, and I don’t want to harp on this because we don’t know if he’s going to be able to come back for this series or even the second round, whatever, but I miss that Jarrett Allen, Dean Wade, and Isaac Okoro lineup. Like-
Chris Fedor (50:22.957)
Hmm.
Ethan Sands (50:30.554)
that lineup was like a death lineup defensively because it allowed Donovan Mitchell to get into the passing lane and not have to worry as much about his man because Isaac was going to get around screens and Deanway was going to come off and be the help defender and Jarrett Allen was literally just locking down the paint. So that felt like you had a four man defensive lineup and it didn’t really matter who the fifth man was. Usually it was Max Struess or
It just in those lineups being able to spread the floor on offense, but I mean Dean Wade was somebody that at the beginning of the season talking like first second podcast that I did with Chris I criticized and Didn’t know his value and now it’s like where is Dean Wade where you meet him? Because of what he impacts defensively his spacing is shooting and all of that, but
Chris Fedor (50:58.912)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (51:27.286)
I think we have to wrap this podcast up just by getting an overview and we talked about it yesterday. Jimmy alluded to it. Is this now a game 7 series because the Cavs simply can’t win in Orlando?
Chris Fedor (51:43.267)
Is this how we’re just gonna wrap up every single podcast? Let’s revisit our prediction. Now does it go 6? Does it go 7? Jimmy, you can go ahead.
Ethan Sands (51:50.767)
Yep.
Jimmy Watkins (51:58.803)
I mean, it kind of feels that way, man. Like it’s got the one of those, it’s got that feeling of one of those first round series where just neither team can win on the road. And I will say like, the Cavs, like I know they’re talking tough, but my eyes are telling me on the court when Orlando makes a run that they’ve been punched again.
and they’re kind of holding their stomach a little bit here. I think, I think that the strength of the, the strength of the home crowd and the whatever gets sapped out of Orlando’s bench when they get on the plane to Tuesday should be enough to return to rock fight land and the Cavs take care of business at home. But like, man.
Like the Cavs look worse on offense at times than Orlando did in Cleveland. Like it’s to the point, the reason we’re having the space ball conversation is because the Cavs offense is so bad that their impenetrable defense is now giving up like 120 points to an offense that, again, we did not think was ever going to score 100 points, it looked like in the series.
Chris Fedor (53:07.543)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (53:21.011)
So like my brain is kind of morphed here. I don’t know what to think, which makes me close my eyes and point at the schedule and say, yeah, seven.
Chris Fedor (53:29.846)
So, players in the locker room, to your point Jimmy, players in the locker room after this game, we’re basically saying without actually saying, JB you need to do something to create more quality looks for us on the offensive end of the floor. You need to do something to get our three point attempts up higher. You need to do something that is going to make it so that offense is not a chore on us.
Like that’s basically what the players were saying without actually saying JB’s name without actually calling him out But it’s clear that the Cavs believe that moving forward in this series. They got to take more threes Orlando did when they got home, right Orlando was just like we didn’t shoot well in Cleveland We’re just gonna double down we’re just gonna keep firing and what happened
Jaylen Sugg started making threes, Jonathan Isaac started making threes, some unlikely Paolo made four in game three, some unlikely sources started to make those shots. And look, like Orlando’s not hoisting like they’re the Golden State Warriors here, they took 27, 26 today. But for the Cavs, the three pointer is such a weapon for this team, and it has been throughout the course of the season.
And that was supposed to be a clear difference based on the personnel that was added in the off season. Because they learned in that Knicks series, we don’t have enough shooting, we don’t have enough spacing, we don’t take enough threes. Now the personnel is different from that Knicks series, and they’ve gotta find a way to make that number go up. And just like, threaten the magic with that.
Chris Fedor (55:26.238)
And I don’t know what the answer for that is. Again, I gave some theories on that. Um, but if there’s something for JB Bicker staff and his coaching staff to figure out over these next couple of games, that to me, I think is the most glaring one. Beyond the fact of
Donovan needs to play at his MVP level. Max Struus needs to give something more than what he’s giving. The bench can’t be thoroughly dominated the way that it has in the last two games. So beyond the fact of play better, these guys need to play to their own standard, get to a level that they didn’t show in Orlando.
they’ve got to take more than 17 threes in a game, 17 threes in a basketball game. For a team that’s constructed like this is just outrageous to borrow a Donovan Mitchell term.
Jimmy Watkins (56:19.999)
Real quick on that, I think it’s so important that Chris brought up that the players are talking, like the players are in the best way they can sending a message to JB, hey man, we need to get more threes up, our offense needs to be better. That’s important schematically of course, because you can’t be feeding Orlando’s offense with your crummy, with your own crummy offense, right? Like make them play against a set defense, that’s what you wanna do. At the same time, psychologically man, like.
Chris Fedor (56:27.)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (56:49.535)
when you can’t score, it bleeds. Like they always say, don’t let your, that offense bleed over your defense. Well, guess what it does. It does. That’s just half, that’s just half, especially for players who derive their offensive, their whole identity as a basketball player from their offense. That’s human nature. So I think that’s worth highlighting just because like that tells you, like these guys are, like it’s mentally straining.
Chris Fedor (56:51.565)
Yeah.
Chris Fedor (56:55.159)
Or she does.
Jimmy Watkins (57:17.515)
to struggle to score. Being bad on defense is mentally draining in a different way. It’s like embarrassing, but you can point to like, okay, we just didn’t try hard enough. They’re trying really hard to score and they can’t do it. And that’s demoralizing.
Chris Fedor (57:27.072)
Oh.
Chris Fedor (57:31.903)
29 points in the second half of a basketball game. Like, you gotta be kidding me. What are we in the 50s? Jesus.
Ethan Sands (57:42.008)
I thought we were done with the 50s. Anyway, Chris, I don’t want to let you get away without giving your answer for this question. Cavs in 6 or Cavs in 7, are you sticking with your Cavs in 6?
Chris Fedor (57:54.438)
Yeah, of course. Yeah, there was a reason why I believed, there was a reason why I believed this was not going to be a sweep. There’s a reason why I believed that this was going to be a competitive series. There’s a reason why I still believe that the Cavs are going to win it. Plenty of reasons for that. And if you’re in the Cavs shoes, you know you’re better at home than they are at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse, right?
Ethan Sands (57:57.868)
Okay. So for.
Chris Fedor (58:22.726)
And you can’t get comfortable saying, well, two of the next three are at home. But like, if we’re being honest, the Cavs do not have to win on the road to win this series. That’s the benefit of home court advantage. It’s on Orlando to go to Cleveland and show they can do this. They haven’t yet. Maybe they do it in game five. We’ll wait and see. I have my doubts.
Ethan Sands
I do think they win a game at five at home. I think I’m changing my answer to game seven because I do not believe that they can win in Orlando. That’s what they’ve shown me. I had believed coming into the series that they were going to win one game when they got there, I thought they were gonna win game four, coming into the series, before any game was played I was like, they’ll lose game 3, and then readjust and win game 4. Now that clearly didn’t happen, I’m thinking that they-
Chris Fedor (01:00:24.798)
Well, they were nine points up at halftime. They were 24 minutes away from that being a reality. And then they set basketball back a century.
Ethan Sands (01:00:37.686)
They don’t give me any belief that they can win in Orlando at this very moment so I’m gonna So I’m gonna switch to game 7 and as my flaming hot take goes if they lose game 5, I think they lose the series because obviously they go back to Orlando anyway
Chris Fedor (01:00:44.467)
I can understand thinking that.
Well, no kidding. I think a lot of people would say the same thing.
Jimmy Watkins (01:01:02.735)
We got time travel involved now. The Cavs have to travel 100 years plus the distance back from Orlando to Cleveland to win that game. That’s a lot.
Chris Fedor (01:01:06.344)
Ha ha
Chris Fedor (01:01:10.19)
Oh my god, after this, yes, maybe even more than that.
Ethan Sands (01:01:17.09)
Alright guys, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, but remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris and me by subscribing to Subtext. And I bet you Jimmy’s gonna be getting his takes off too. So to get all this information, analysis, injury updates, and just quotes on what the Cavs are saying going into game 5 in Cleveland, sign up for a 14 day free trial, or visit Cleveland.com backslash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up, stick around, because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast it’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.
If you or a loved one has questions and needs to talk to a professional about gambling, call the Ohio Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800-589-9966 or the National Council on Program Gambling Helpline (NCPG) at 1-800-522-4700 or visit 1800gambler.net for more information. 21+ and present in Ohio. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-Gambler.