CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to a new episode of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell, both back after a week away. This podcast was taped late Tuesday afternoon, before the Guardians play in Baltimore vs. the Orioles.
We get into the impressive performance of the Guardians bullpen so far this season; and how they are in some pretty elite company historically. We also look at Steven Kwan as he flirts with a .400 batting average and the American League batting lead.
We also discuss the Cavs and their hire of new coach Kenny Atkinson.
Plus, do the Browns have the third most talented roster in the NFL?
Also, Terry has asked fans to send in stories of when and how they got a foul ball at a baseball game. We read a couple more of those. You can email your foul ball story, or any stories about autographs you’ve secured, along with any other comments or questions you may have about the podcast, to [email protected], and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
Want to keep up with everything Terry is writing? Check out his new weekly newsletter, which comes out every Wednesday and is available to subscribers.
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A full transcript of the podcast is below. As it is computer-generated, it will contain many spelling and grammar errors.
You can find previous podcasts here:
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David Campbell (02:27.842)
Hey, we’re back after a week off on the Terry’s talking podcast featuring Mr. Terry Pluto. I’m David Campbell, your host. How’s it going, Terry? Good to see you again after a week off.
Terry Pluto (02:36.59)
I’m doing well. The Cavs have a coach. The Guardians never lose. Stephen Kwan is going to hit 450. And the Browns is nice and quiet. They haven’t had a legal problem this week. And that’s what all those teams, not to make fun of that, but all these teams hold their breath during the off season when the lads are free to explore their own interests and you hope they explore good interests.
David Campbell (02:41.346)
A lot of things going on.
David Campbell (03:02.69)
That’s right. What did Jim Tressel always say? Nothing good ever happens after midnight was his big saying for the players. So, and yeah. Hey, Terry.
Terry Pluto (03:08.75)
And for the players, yes, very true and even some coaches who have embarrassed themselves over the years. Let’s be fair now Okay Yeah
David Campbell (03:15.266)
That is true. Yeah, the Bobby Petrino principle. Hey, I was in Louisville over the weekend. I wanted to ask, have you ever been to the Louisville Slugger Bat Factory? Because we took a tour of it while we were there.
Terry Pluto (03:26.638)
How about this? I’ve never been to Louisville. Yes, that too often. Yeah. And it came up because my elderly mom, Melva, who’s 98, the African -American lady, then my mom to Roberta and I, so we’re sitting there talking. She was born in Northern Alabama, came to Akron in 1950, kind of what the, really the migration north for jobs. And...
David Campbell (03:29.602)
Really? I found one place you’ve never been. You’re a very well traveled guy.
Terry Pluto (03:54.382)
We got to talking, so I said, well, mom, what’s your favorite place you’ve ever been? She said, Louisville. I go, when were you there? She was a kid and she liked the river and they had some nice relatives there. That’s all I know.
David Campbell (04:06.018)
huh. Yeah, we had a good time. We were there from like Thursday to Sunday. But when you go into the, you pay for the tour and everything, but you go in and they have, you get in line and there was only like three people in line for this in the, in the museum part of it. And you can pick any one of like 20 bats of famous players through the years. They have a Babe Ruth bat and like Willie Stargell and they had a Willie Mays bat. So I actually got the whole Willie Mays’ bat last week, a couple of days after he had passed. So that was.
Terry Pluto (04:12.27)
right
Terry Pluto (04:21.71)
really?
Mm -hmm. Wow.
David Campbell (04:33.25)
It’s a good tour. It only takes about an hour. If you’re ever in Louisville, highly recommend it. Some cool stuff.
Terry Pluto (04:38.03)
Yeah, it’d be funny to see the different weights in the bats and how they’ve changed over the years. If you look at Kwan’s bat, it’s much different than most others. He really doesn’t have the usual real thin handle on that. Look at it next time he’s up. In fact, it’s almost like a, it’s just like a regular piece of wood.
David Campbell (04:58.562)
Huh, yeah, because the bats, they show the old bats, there’s an old bat from the 20s there and they did have a much thicker bottom and the bats now are very tapered. So that is a little unusual. It’s kind of old school a little bit.
Terry Pluto (05:05.294)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and he’s still tapered more than the top, but watch him. Watch tonight. He’s probably goes why you would change anything at the moment. I don’t know, but just take a look at the back.
David Campbell (05:19.778)
That’s good stuff. All right. Hey Terry before I forget I want to mention your newsletter which man You’ve been getting some emails from people who just love this thing If you want to sign up go to Cleveland comm slash Pluto You can click at the top if you become a subscriber to Cleveland comm you get the newsletter as part of being a subscriber I know you got a very interesting thing that’ll be in tomorrow’s newsletter, which should go out at noon But do you want to kind of tease that real quick before we move into the Guardians?
Terry Pluto (05:42.542)
Just well, the other thing that is like, well, last week I went into the day Roberta discovered Stephen Kwan, which today is still remarkable to me because it was a spring game of 21. Stephen Kwan at that point was on nobody’s prospect list. In 2019, he batted 280 with three homers at Class A Lynchburg. 2020, there were no minor league games and 21, she picked him and liked him. So I’m like, okay.
Kwan’s knocking on 400′s door. Who could he turn into? And I came up with a player, a name, that will be very familiar to Tribe fans and that. So we’ll see, you can check that out, see who that is. And I kind of lay out the case why that could be. And believe me, if this guy ends up being that one, it’s gonna be a really nice ride with my wife’s favorite player.
David Campbell (06:37.666)
Alright, once again, go to cleveland .com slash Pluto. There’s a blue bar at the top and you can sign up there and get Terry’s newsletter. So alright, Terry, I feel like we should start with the Guardians because they are I’m starting to see some of the buzz around Major League Baseball like nationally. I think the Guardians are finally getting some attention 50 and 26. That’s a 658 winning percentage. They have an eight game lead on the twins a nine game lead on the Royals. They have the second best record in Major League Baseball behind the Phillies.
Terry Pluto (06:55.63)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (07:07.97)
And, Huanze had a stat today, I think in the guardians breakfast, which is like a morning post that we do every day to kind of set the day up. But the last time Cleveland was 24 games above 500. Do you know the answer, Terry? I did not. 2019, the end of the 2019 season, they were 92 and 69.
Terry Pluto (07:25.358)
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, that was when they had the 22 game win streak.
David Campbell (07:30.978)
So how is this happening, Terry? 2019, the end of the 2019 season when they were 92 and 69, yeah.
Terry Pluto (07:32.27)
No, excuse me, it was 2019? I was wrong, excuse me. I was thinking 2017 when they had the 22 game win streak. By the way, Terry Francona both told me this, as did Chris Antinetti, that the team they felt the best with going into the postseason was that 2017 team, not the 16 team. But you remember there, they got knocked off by the Yankees in that, but 2019, huh?
David Campbell (08:02.242)
Yeah, that’s a good stat. So, but, but Terry, how is this happening? I mean, the guardians are proving to be one of the best run teams in baseball, if not all of pro sports. How are they doing this and what has really worked that they’ve put together here? Why is this happening in your mind?
Terry Pluto (08:18.862)
Well, number one, they’re hitting. In the American league, their third in runs scored. They’re sixth in homers and their OPS are sixth. You have two guys in the middle of the lineup and it’s not even July 4th with 20 homers in Naylor and Jose. So you start with that, but then I’m looking at the lineup and I laid this
I’ve got a Blegle pad in front, the infamous scribbles in my notebook. So you got 20 homers for the two guys, but then you got eight for Fra, you got seven for Kwan, you have six for Freeman, you have five for Jimenez, you even have four for Bomaeyer. The point is, remember, we haven’t even played half the season, so if a guy has eight, like Will Brennan, that’s like 16 for the season.
or more, you know, or eight for fries, like 16. So they’ve had some power up and down the lineup that I don’t think anyone imagined. Third in the American league and run scored. It’s just, it’s an outrageous stat for these guys and sixth in home runs. So that’s a big deal. Now the other stat that is even more mind blowing is their bullpen has a 232 ERA, the bullpen.
Who’s number two?
David Campbell (09:51.458)
The Yankees? that was a good guess. I got one right finally.
Terry Pluto (09:52.462)
Yeah. Three, three, nine, three. You got it right. How about this? They’re a full run better than the number two team. In other words, these games are over in six innings. They’re done. Forget it.
David Campbell (10:06.818)
Well, check out this stat, Terry. I saw this from Anthony Castro Vince, who you know, covers the guardians for MLB. Since the mound was lowered in 1969, these are the lowest team relief ERAs, all right? The 1972 Pirates, 2 .25. The 1981 Yankees, 2 .26. And the 2024 Guardians come in third at 2 .32, which you just mentioned. So since 1969, if this was the end of the season, they would have the third lowest.
Terry Pluto (10:08.43)
Yeah? -huh.
Terry Pluto (10:30.638)
Yeah?
David Campbell (10:36.994)
Bullpen ERA, Reliever ERA since 1969. That is some incredible company there. And then the 69 Orioles are fourth, which you weren’t covering the team back then, but.
Terry Pluto (10:45.998)
And to put context to this, David, those other three teams you mentioned, that was when relievers traditionally threw multiple innings.
Like for example, the Yankees in 81, they had George Frazier, I think, pitched one or two innings and gossaged sometimes. I hope I got that right with my memory, did multiple innings. But that was a, you know, so that was a real thing where, you know, this is all one inning baseball now. And so it puts more demands. I mean, you look at Scott Barlow comes in and strikes out the Orioles in the ninth. By the way, we, I have to give.
I was very lukewarm on the barlowe thing. I thought it was okay. You know, they trade for them, but I have to really give Anthony credit for that because, you know, not that he’s been the best in the bullpen of any of these guys, but what he’s been able to do in various roles is really impressive. And I know that the idea was to have a veteran like him who has closed in the past. So if they need a closer now.
You know, they could turn around and go to him. So I think that’s a big deal. I mean, you look at, I mean, opposing teams are hitting 191 against the bullpen. So to tie a bow on the package, your third in runs scored, you are actually first in, excuse me, in your first in bullpen ERA and your third overall in ERA.
so you’re really the only area of weakness and it isn’t terrible, but it’s the, the starting pitching is just not still even though it’s been better, not chewing much innings in terms of the, you know, the quality starts that invented by a guy named John Lowe, a writer from Detroit, which is three runs in six innings. Cleveland has 22 of those. That’s the second worst in the American league.
Terry Pluto (12:53.742)
And so, and also they basically have pitched the fewest innings for starters of anybody in the American league. So they’re in their ERA for starters is 4 .25, which ranks ninth. That’s been it, but they’ve been able to overcome this with this great bullpen and the fact they’re scoring runs.
David Campbell (13:15.17)
Well, and Terry, it’s, if you were to tell, this is probably what we expected with the starting rotation when Shane Bieber and Gavin Williams both went down, but now Williams is starting to work his way back. He might be coming back into the rotation. I guess the big question, which we’ll probably get into the next few weeks here is the trade deadline closes in is like, do they need to trade for a starter? And we can get into that later, but like you’re right, that’s the one area, but I’m wondering what Gavin Williams is going to do to giving them some flexibility in the rotation and getting some more production.
Terry Pluto (13:25.486)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (13:42.574)
I’m like, who knows on him. I don’t mean to be negative, but then these guys haven’t pitched and it’s the middle of June. it’s really hard to know, but if he can give them five innings, it’s just like the, you know, the emails I get on. Well, I’m sick of seeing Carlos Carrasco. Okay. Who, who do you want to pitch? I think they brought back Curry, didn’t they? I believe they just brought him back, but he had an area of six and AAA. I mean, they’re just, there aren’t guys down there. Basically they,
They went deep into their bag of young starting pitching last year with Logan Allen and with, Bybee and with Gavin Williams. I mean, to come, come up with three like that. And so now Bybee’s really pitching well. Allen’s been coming around. Carlos had a nice game the last time out, but this is a, can they keep this up? I mean, it’s such a pleasure to manage a team.
When the bullpen basically never gives up a run.
David Campbell (14:45.25)
Yeah, like you said, shorten the game to six innings and it’s over. So.
Terry Pluto (14:47.63)
Yeah. And if we got to do it in five, we’ll do it in five. That’s kind of their view of it. so I want to see if that’ll keep up. Will they hit, will they continue to hit? Maybe even things like, you know, Tyler Freeman with six home runs, he’s only getting two 10, but he’s got six home runs. And so, you know, that’s 12. Of course he’s playing really good in center field. Schneemann.
By the way, for older fans, I got an email from a guy. Said Daniel Schneeman reminded him of John Wolinstein, who is a left -handed hitter, played many positions, sort of underrated, with a little bit of power. And Schneeman is hitting 289 with a 952 OPS. And just to show you, David, how strange baseball is.
Now Schieman was the 1 ‚003 player picked in the 2018 draft out of Brigham Young. So his first full season in the minors is 2019. He had 287 at Lake County, two home runs. But they don’t play in 2021. It’s like 235 at Lake County, then 268 at Akron. I mean, nothing special.
How about this? 2022, not that long ago. Plays a whole year at Akron, his 205. So now at this point, he is 25 years old. He’s sitting 205 and AA. He ain’t on anybody’s prospect list.
David Campbell (16:28.354)
He was living up to his draft billing at that point. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (16:29.87)
He was, he drafted, he was playing like a guy. They called them the suspects. They’re there to play around the prospects, play a lot of positions and be a good teammate. But last year he has 267 with 13 homers. He had never hit more than six in a season at triple A. They probably moved him up there just to be utility man. And he’s a good guy. And suddenly, you know, he, he gets an OPS of almost, almost 800. And then he goes to spring training. His line drives all over the place and now he’s in the big leagues.
I mean, it is a classic, who knew? Nobody knew. And I wonder how close he was even to getting caught.
David Campbell (17:07.842)
Terry, this is why, you know, there used to be all the Sandlot leagues and everybody would try to just make their way up to the majors. This is why guys play in junior college or try to play at any college they can, because once you get in the pipeline, you never know. Like you just have to be in it. And if you keep digging and keep trying to improve, like stuff like this can happen, probably more in baseball than any other sport, I think.
Terry Pluto (17:26.862)
And I’ll tell you, right, and it’s harder now for these guys because number one, the 33rd round no longer exists. They cut it to 20, which really upset me. I think that was stupid. And they also cut the number of farm teams you could have to four. And I think plus like a Dominican or team in the Dominican where we used to be able to have six and seven and what save money, save the extra, I don’t know, a million bucks for a minor league team.
When I mean right now they’re paying $5 million from Mont L ‘Oreal by the way to pay for the brace. I was surprised on that. And of course, the typical fashion you let a guy go, he’s eight for 27 since signing with the Braves. I think they had a bunch of injuries and brought him in. I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one, but that’s the stuff about baseball that drives you crazy.
David Campbell (18:19.138)
All right. Well, hey, Terry, we got to spend a few minutes talking about Steven Kwan here, right? Like you were talking about the bat that he uses. This guy, 389 batting average OPS of a thousand 20. He went one for three last night and his batting average went down. Like that’s, that’s what we’re talking about here. And everybody knows the last MLB player to hit 400 was Ted Williams in, 1941. They have added the Negro league records to the.
Terry Pluto (18:22.958)
Okay.
Terry Pluto (18:30.19)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (18:35.726)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (18:42.414)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (18:47.586)
to the official record book. So the extra, the last person to hit a 300, there were two guys in 1948, Artie Wilson of the Birmingham Black Barons batted 435 and Willard Brown of the Kansas city of Monarchs batted 408. I wanted to, I had pulled a few stats. I wanted to run past you about like what’s different about Stephen Kwan this year. And then I want to kind of get your thoughts on what you’re seeing in terms of his approach and whether it’s the same as what we’re seeing from all the guardians are different. I don’t know, but.
Some of these stats are from baseball savant .com, which is a great site that we’ve talked about before. So Stephen Kwan’s out of zone swing percentage last season was 21 .3 and this season it’s 19 .3. So he’s swinging at less pitches out of the zone, right? His hard hit percentage has gone from 18 .8 % to 21 .3%. So he’s hitting the balls harder. He’s being more selective.
Terry Pluto (19:33.422)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (19:43.906)
His strikeout percentage has gone from 10 .4 last season down to 7 .1 this season. And the MLB average is 9 .5 strikeout percentage. Not to keep throwing numbers, but. Yeah, go ahead.
Terry Pluto (19:55.63)
That’s there’s a couple surprising things there number one is I would have thought the average hitter struck out more than 10 % of the time So But that’s the numbers Secondly, I would have thought Kwon even though I can hardly remember him striking out Given his added power would be striking out more He’s not and a real bait before you get back to the ace false. So vine a real basic one
is alright he already has seven homers in his previous two seasons with the Guardians in over almost 1300 total plate appearances. He had how many home runs?
David Campbell (20:39.874)
Five?
Terry Pluto (20:40.622)
11 total but remember you’re talking 1300 at bats And he’s got seven this year so
David Campbell (20:44.514)
Yeah
David Campbell (20:48.226)
And this, this plays into that a little bit, Terry. I would, they have on baseball savant where you hit the ball, right? And usually when a guy is hitting for average, what do they tell you? Like, don’t try to pull it, right? Try and hit to the opposite field, hit up the middle. His, his percentage of hits of batted balls, I should say a percentage of battered balls straight has gone from 39 .5 % to 33 % this season. So 39 .5 in 2023, he’s only hitting 33 % straight.
Terry Pluto (20:50.734)
Yeah.
Hmm?
Hit the right.
David Campbell (21:17.954)
His pull percentage of batted balls has gone from 27 .7 to 33 .5. So he’s pulling 6 % more to right field than he was last season. And his opposite field is 32 .8 was last year, 33 .5, not too much of a difference there, but that change in him pulling the ball, I think is kind of what you’re talking about with the power. The home runs, I think have all been to right field. And I don’t know if it’s.
Terry Pluto (21:40.654)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (21:46.306)
on purpose that he’s trying to pull the ball or because of the pitch selection that he’s swinging at better pitches and he’s able to pull them or whatever it is. It’s been a dramatic. That’s a dramatic number, I think in terms of the pull percentage. So.
Terry Pluto (21:59.37)
Well, one is the book last year when he was struggling is bust him inside, you know, but break trying to throw him in on the hands. He’s not getting around on it. His basket and broken, that kind of stuff this year. I think he’s moved a little bit off the plate and he just, the, the, the line is he looks quicker. In other words, his hands just seem to be faster and maybe he’s looking more of those inside pitches. He just gets out in front of them, pulls them. Now the.
David Campbell (22:07.202)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (22:27.534)
When I write about Kwon and this other player compared him to the newsletter, guys tend to develop power more in their late 20s. Just the experience of hitting, looking for pitches they can hit. You know, Kwon is 26 and he will turn 27 on September 5th, the day before Roberta’s birthday, which I was not aware of till today. I happened to look and I texted her. She goes, well, I knew that. I’m like, okay. I mean, after all, she scouted him, remember?
David Campbell (22:53.986)
you
Terry Pluto (22:56.974)
So, you look at these things and you say, well, maybe he’s going to hit for more power. And not just him. You say, okay, maybe Fry, you know, at the age of 28 and Freeman, these guys starting to hit for some more power. I mean, Jose, as we’re talking, I want to just look to see where he kind of broke through in the power end of it, how old he was. So, you know, the first time he had 20 homers was 2017. And at that point,
2017, he was 26. So see, that’s where it comes in. Even in 2016, that was his breakthrough year where he hit 300. He only had 11 homers. That was a year they also gave them the contract extension right after that year, the first one. So that’s a, it’s a who knows, you know, the, the guardians were looking at their group of guys, seeing them going middle twenties until late twenties thinking. Maybe they’re going to peak. Maybe this is what we’re going to do.
David Campbell (23:58.018)
And I’m having a hard time thinking of a, of a team where I’ve seen, I mean, this approach that they’ve taken where like, Hey, being a contact hitter is not enough. Like when you make contact, you have to make damaging contact and the pitch selection and everybody kind of getting it. It’s it’s been fascinating to watch. Like they’re, they’re all overachieving. I mean, you can make your argument about the bottom of the lineup and who’s doing what down there, but that top five, top six.
Terry Pluto (24:06.35)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (24:24.066)
They’ve all gotten it. Like they’ve all understood what the approach is supposed to be and they’re carrying it out. And we’re almost halfway through the season.
Terry Pluto (24:31.758)
And some of it simply could be age and experience is coming. Not what Jose. I think some years Jose is hurt and he doesn’t tell anybody. Because he always plays a million games. I know the one year he played with a broken hand for over half the year. I mean he just doesn’t tell anybody. Andre Knott’s his big buddy. Even Andre Knott, if he does tell him anything, he threatens to rip Andre’s tongue out if he tells anybody else he’s hurt.
David Campbell (24:59.81)
Hahaha!
Terry Pluto (25:01.71)
I mean, it’s just, it’s how, you know, as they say, that’s how he rolls. But if you look at Jose, other than in 2019, that was a year he had a broken Hammett bone. He played 129 games since then from 2016. Okay. And any full seasons till now from 16 till now he’s played at least 152 games. He plays all the time and he.
plays beat up and also think about it when you’re playing and you’re sliding head first and playing like he does, he must be playing sometimes when he’s got a tweaked hamstring, he’s got a jammed wrist, he’s got a bruised elbow, you know, who knows what else he’s dealt with. You’ll never hear a word. What? I mean, he’s just a consummate pro in that regard.
David Campbell (25:52.29)
You have to tie him to the bench to get him to take a day off. It’s a battle. Yeah, right. All right, Terry, anything else on the Guardians? We got a couple of Guardians letters from listeners here. We can get into you want to do those.
Terry Pluto (25:55.502)
Yeah, yes, day off is DHA.
Terry Pluto (26:04.462)
Yes. Now, unfortunately he’s already gone back to the minors, but in spring training, I wrote a Sunday piece with Melita. My Sunday notes is on, on hell Martinez. And the reason being I was not in spring this year because of, my mom, the 98 year old Melville, Hardison, Ms. Louisville, as I’ve not called her. she was the one, she had a major stroke and we just couldn’t go. But so I’m talking to Tom Hamilton.
And Tom and I are close and I’m like, Hey, Tom, who do you like down there? And he goes, Angel Martinez. I’m like, really? I mean, I just knew him. You see his name in the lower part. He says, I think he’s going to really hit. It may take another year, but I just really like how he looks at the plate. and then Martinez did have a good spring. And then I think, I forgot where he hurt his foot or what he did. so, he started the year on the injured list and then a AAA, he opened the season.
He went 20 for 60, but it hit 333, 988 OPS with three homers. So there were three homers and like 60 at bats. And he called up when Arias went to, I guess, medical leave or something. He went two for seven. Now they sent him back down. They are starting, he was of course one of their million short stuffs. They’re starting to play him some of the outfield. So keep an eye on that guy and on...
is what he does, because I could see him coming up. And he’s also, I mean, he’s a bigger guy. He’s listed at six foot and 200. And I believe he’s only 22. So there’s, you know, we kept hearing, sometimes you get tired of hearing about these prospects. Yeah, he’s 22. And he’s listed at six foot and 200 pounds. So I really believe that, you know, he could come around and come around quickly.
David Campbell (28:02.914)
All right, well this.
Terry Pluto (28:03.086)
And also if I were Arias, I would be, well, you may not want to look over your shoulder and make your situation worse, but this could be a guide that you could plug in for Arias if you just realize that Arias isn’t doing it.
David Campbell (28:15.362)
All right. Hey, this question, Terry is a little bit related to that. It’s from long time listener, Terry Ramey from Burlington, North Carolina. He says, Hey, Dave and Terry hope you’re both staying cool with the heat in Northeast Ohio. I have a question about long -term shortstop prospects in the organization. I’m not sold on Rokeo or Arias for that matter. I see Jose Tanya hitting 302 at Columbus and remember him at the ACL in 2021 looking at his scouting reports. He seems like a solid all around prospect with some power potential.
They say he has a good arm and covers adequate ground and short. What do you think of him? Is it possibly gets to the majors this year? And love listening to your podcast, go guards. Thanks, Terry. What do you think of that, Terry? Jose Tanya.
Terry Pluto (28:55.022)
You know, I don’t have a strong opinion on him. I haven’t seen him much. I’m looking at the stats, which are pretty good, and he’s young. He’s 23.
Terry Pluto (29:13.166)
another guy that Arias could hear some footsteps from. Now the thing to keep in mind about Rokio is that he is playing a terrific shortstop. He’s not flashy, he’s just really good and I think he only has three errors and it’s not just that all these things that measure range and everything. I mean he’s excellent at that and so I think that they are going to be reluctant to take him off of there.
especially this year, but you know, another year or two, I’m looking at his age. All these guys are young. He’s 23. And so, and you have Freeman and center field, but I mean, maybe, maybe they work Martinez and center field and AAA and you can go with something like that. it’s, it’s fascinating to watch. What else you got?
David Campbell (30:08.322)
All right, this next one is from Paul Cosgrove, long time listener from Sun Lakes, Arizona. And Paul says, Hey, Dave and Terry, almost every team is looking for starting pitching. Would you have any interest in returning Mike Clevenger to Cleveland? He’s currently coming off rehab with the White Sox this year in limited appearances. He has a six plus ERA, but last year it was 3 .22. His salary is only 3 million. And for the rebuilding White Sox, it wouldn’t take much to get him. He could slide in as a fourth or fifth starter.
Terry Pluto (30:23.374)
Ugh.
It’s... Awww...
I’m sure.
David Campbell (30:36.642)
Little risk, good reward. Terry, I did look up his stats as of today. Four games, 6 .75 ERA as Paul suggested. He’s on three and his whip is, which is walks and hits per innings pitch. For those who don’t know that stat, it’s 1 .94, which means, yeah, it’s very high.
Terry Pluto (30:50.222)
It’s awful is what it is. It’s just awful. It’s awful. No, no, he can’t stay healthy. I have no interest in clubbing. Is that clear? I mean, now I get where he’s coming from, that, okay, it might be a low risk. You know, he left here on some really bad vibes. Number one was he turned down. I believe it was a $32 million extension.
David Campbell (30:58.818)
All right. That is clear.
Terry Pluto (31:18.478)
I had the details a while ago. He was listening by the way to the immortal Trevor Bauer, who was telling all these guys don’t sign any contract extension. It was the Scott Borrell’s approach to you want to get to free agency as fast as possible. Of course, Clevenger already had one Tommy John when he was in the miners on his elbow. And so he turns down that contract and then remember when they were all the COVID thing and
They were very worried about Francona becoming ill during that time. And the players were all honoring that whole deal of stay, you know, stay safe, don’t get out. Of course he went in and Pleszak went to some party or something and then came back and that just finished him. That’s when they made the great trade. You know, Josh Neuer is the big thing. That’s what for that. He goes to San Diego, he blows his elbow again. And then he’s had a wrist or something else. So.
It’s just too much baggage. My back would be too hairy. Can’t be carrying all that stuff with him.
David Campbell (32:21.282)
All right, anything else on the guardians there? I think we’re done, right?
Terry Pluto (32:26.35)
You know what I’m looking up as we’re talking. So why don’t you say something for 30 seconds while I give you this right here, because it’s coming up. That sounds very good.
David Campbell (32:33.314)
All right. So I’ll give, I’ll give the upcoming schedule. So the guardians are playing tonight on Tuesday. They’re finished. They’ve two games left in Baltimore. Logan Allen set to go tonight on Tuesday evening, Wednesday. It’s going to be Carlos Carrasco. Both of those are six 35. Then man, who would have thought there’d be a big series like this before July even hits Thursday through Sunday. They’re a Kansas city. If the guardians sweep that series that could really
mean a lot in the division, but their four game series in Kansas City close out the month and then next week they’re back to host the White Sox heading into the 4th of July weekend and then the All -Star break soon afterwards. So anyway, there you go. I stalled for 30 seconds.
Terry Pluto (33:01.102)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (33:09.998)
All right, you certainly did. Well, the the Clevenger question rolled me into Zach Pleszek because remember that was his wingmate the time they went out. Do you know where Pleszek is? Because I did not, but I have found him.
David Campbell (33:28.258)
Class A ball somewhere? Triple A?
Terry Pluto (33:29.39)
No, AAA with the Angels has actually pitched twice in the big leagues. He has an 8 .68 ERA with the Angels in two games, and he’s three and seven with a 5 .42 ERA with them in AAA.
David Campbell (33:47.138)
Oof.
Terry Pluto (33:47.822)
Be still my heart. Okay.
David Campbell (33:49.57)
Yep. All right, Terry, let’s take a break here. When we come back, I want to ask you why you think that new Cavs coach Kenny Atkinson is the right fit for this team right now. So we’ll get into that and more. We have some good foul ball stories, which we’ve been reading on the podcast. We’ll get into that and more when we come back on Terry’s Talking.
All right, we are back on Terry’s talking David Campbell, Terry Pluto. Terry, you know, after seeing what happened with the Lakers this week, I can’t understand why the Cavs made this move to hire Kenny Atkinson. The guy has no podcast experience at all. As opposed to the guy in Los Angeles with the Lakers. But anyway, the Cavs did on Monday morning, it kind of, there were many reports, including by your own Chris Fidor that Kenny Atkinson would be coming to Cleveland to coach the Cavs.
Terry Pluto (34:41.742)
That’s correct. Yes. No podcast experience.
David Campbell (34:56.77)
And he was in France when he got the news working over there with the national team and on the court, I guess he got the call when they offered him the job and he’s working his way back. you wrote a column today about why Kenny Atkinson could be the right fit for the calves. And why don’t you talk about what you wrote in there and why you think this could work.
Terry Pluto (35:04.334)
Mmm.
Terry Pluto (35:15.63)
Well, you have to look at this from a couple angles. Number one is, all right, if you don’t like Atkinson, who do you like that’s available? Chuck Daly’s not coming back from the grave or whatever. You have to pick guys. So you’re at James Borrego, the Mr. Podcast, a bunch of guys, Sam Cassell, or guys who’ve never been head coaches before. Now, if you’re open to giving this team to
a coach, he’s never been a head coach before then. okay, fine. I’m not. I just, I just think this, this engine is ready to run, you know, a pretty fast race and I want a veteran behind the wheel. So therefore you’re in a situation of you got James Rerego, who by the way, has great PR out there for, I’ll tell you this, it’s like, you know, his name. because I felt Atkinson was a guy almost from the day after JB was
fired because that’s what I heard, but you know, it took him forever to get there. And, you know, Frank Vogel who got fired by Phoenix after one year got fired in LA. So I’ve been fired twice in two years by two different teams. You know, Monty Williams came on the market, but right now I think nobody wants to touch Monty after blowing up that big job in Detroit. So there’s just not a lot of alternatives, David.
So then you go, all right, can Atkinson be the right fit? Remember we’re picking out of who’s available. And from talking to Mike Fratello, who first had Atkinson with the Ukrainian national team in 2011, Mike recognized him as a young coach with the, New York Knicks and wanted a teacher and a guy that could kind of connect with people. And by the way, Atkinson has extensive playing experience overseas.
So he brought him in and he was just blown away by Atkinson’s ability to connect with different types of players and help Mike coach the Ukrainian team. Then when Mike, when Kenny got to the head coaching job with the Nets, Mike was working for the Yes Network in New York and he covered a bunch of those games. And remember when you’re on the broadcast team, you’re going to practices and everything else. It’s not close to you. So
Terry Pluto (37:41.294)
Mike was very, very impressed with, Mike Furtello is very impressed, excuse me, with Atkinson. The other person that I’d heard about Atkinson from years ago was Danny Ferry, who at the time was the GM of the Atlanta Hawks. In 2012, Ferry’s first year there, he hired Kenny Atkinson. He already kept head coach Larry Drew, but he wanted Atkinson on his staff. That’s one year after Furtello had him on the national team. So.
He went over there and then in 2013 they hired Budenhalzer to coach the Hawks and he’s we’re making the playoffs and Atkinson was his main guy. And then 16 Atkinson went to Brooklyn just based on those guys whom I know and whom I’ve heard about Atkinson for awhile. And what I saw in Brooklyn, where he had the team going in the right direction, the first three years until the fourth year when new ownership came in and decided what we really want to do is bring in Kyrie Irving.
who had already messed up in Boston at the end in Cleveland and Kevin Durant who was having Achilles surgery, he wasn’t going to play at all. And that kind of the culture and the thing that he built there just went right down the toilet. They were 28 and 34 and he got fired and Fratello was around for that. And he said that just wasn’t fair to Atkinson. So then he spent a year with Ty Lewitt with the Clippers and then three years with Kerr. So is it the greatest profile ever, David? No.
but I will just counter with if not Atkinson, who?
David Campbell (39:14.594)
Yeah. And the other thing that I think is a plus and the plus column for him is I think Manny Ackham might have said this when the Indians hired him back in the day, somebody asked him like, why should you get another chance? And he said, well, if people didn’t get a second chance to be head coaches, like Joe Torre never would have managed the Yankees. Like, right. And the thing that I, I do like about Atkinson’s resume, and I know that the Cavs really like his, you know, his player development ability and he’s into analytics and.
Terry Pluto (39:27.278)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (39:32.269)
Yeah.
David Campbell (39:43.714)
But like he was a head coach dealt with, you know, he coached Carys Laverde and Jared Allen while he was there in Brooklyn. It fell apart. He had to deal with stars a little bit toward the end, but then he wasn’t a head coach anymore. And I think, you know, we’ve written this a few different ways in some of our stories, but they call it the Steve Kerr graduate school of coaching. He went back and, and you wrote about this, Terry, about Mike Brown. And we’ve talked about this on the podcast.
Terry Pluto (39:49.87)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (40:04.334)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (40:10.402)
how Mike Brown went, worked with Steve Kerr and completely changed his approach to offensive basketball. So the coach that the Cavs are getting in Kenny Atkinson is not the coach from the Brooklyn Nets back then. This is a guy who’s been exposed to different stuff, you know, with the Clippers, the Warriors, and now he’s bringing that stuff plus what he learned from being a head coach the first time to Cleveland. So I think that’s a plus in his category. And certainly, like you were mentioning, there’s a lot of things that, you know,
are on the negative side too, in terms of dealing, Jimmy Watkins, our colleague wrote about this dealing with star players. How’s it going to handle Donovan Mitchell, like all that stuff. But I think you have to give this guy a chance and he’s different than he was.
Terry Pluto (40:52.878)
Well, tell me who was able to handle Kyrie until just recently. Whether it was LeBron James in Cleveland, that was always the best line one executive gave me. LeBron James’ greatest achievement in Cleveland. He said, maybe better than winning the title, but at least on the same level was keeping Kyrie in line for three years. And then...
David Campbell (41:08.738)
Ha ha.
Terry Pluto (41:15.086)
So I don’t pull that and Durant didn’t play and was grumpy because he was hurt and all that stuff. And by the way, when they ran Atkinson out, remember they brought in Steve Nash to coach who had never been a head coach before. I mean, just showed the thought process there was. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing. I mean, just, just crazy. I mean, it’s just, in fact, somebody did mention to me yesterday when I was talking to my NBA people said, well, Terry, other than the podcast.
David Campbell (41:28.962)
or podcast. He didn’t have a podcast either.
Terry Pluto (41:42.958)
Tell me the difference between JJ Reddick and Steve Nash
I don’t have one. They’re both were, I mean, Nash is a better player, but no coaching experience whatsoever anywhere. And so we’ll see how that rolls out.
David Campbell (42:01.122)
Yeah, there was a graphic. I think, Hey, you know what? JJ Reddick might win two championships with the Lakers, but they showed a graphic yesterday. It said coaching experience, a fourth grade volunteer coach at a grade school in Brooklyn and LA Lakers head coach. Those were the two things on his coaching resume.
Terry Pluto (42:11.342)
Yeah. my, I mean, you know, and who knows? And now, you know, it’s a different sport, but you know, Steven vote who did only have one years of bullpen coach at Seattle. And now we see how he’s doing here. so we shall see, but I don’t, I don’t really, hold struggling with stars against, Atkinson because
Those two guys at that point were unculturable.
David Campbell (42:45.282)
All right, well, before we move on from the Gia Kenny Atkinson segment of the show, I did want to mention Chris Fodor, our outstanding Cavs writer. He and Ethan Sands have a Cavs subtext account. And basically what it is is you pay $3 .99 a month and Chris and Ethan send you all kinds of inside tidbits and their thoughts on the team. But I thought this was interesting. Chris texted to our subscribers last night. If you want to check it out, go to cleveland .com slash Cavs. And there’s a blue bar at the top of that page. And for $3 .99 a month, you can sign up. But Chris texted our insiders that
Kobe Altman called to offer Atkinson the job. And after the hire went public, Chris reports multiple Golden State players reached out to various calves to express how good of a hire it was. And Chris told our insiders, there’s a lot of excitement and positivity. And apparently the players were in favor of this from Golden State. They were glad to see him get this job. So thought I would pass out along.
Terry Pluto (43:23.79)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (43:36.142)
Along those lines, Fritell told me whether it was the Ukrainian team and then later when he watched him with the nuts, he saw that how many players would stay around after practice for extra work with him. He said, in fact, in Ukraine, because I guess it was regimen and when they eat lunch and that, he had to come back and just throw them off the court. He goes, look guys, either you come out or you’re not eating. So, and they wanted their goulash. So they went and...
David Campbell (43:50.338)
Mm.
David Campbell (44:03.842)
Ha ha.
Terry Pluto (44:06.222)
I’m sure there’s Ukrainian goulash if there’s Hungarian goulash and, you know, I’m from Slovakia. So it’s all sort of that part of the world and to get the pierogies too. And so that was, but that’s, see, those are things that coaches watch. And as Chris mentioned, you know, the golden state players reaching out, they were able to do that. You know, he, he connects on that level. Guys, this is it. He’s 57 years old. He’s not, if he messes this up.
He’s not getting another head coaching job. He could be an assistant forever. And then I got a really silly email from a couple of people. Well, you know, these guys, they get a sign or four year of contract and they only get, they work two years and get paid for the rest. They’re all multimillionaires already. That’s the thing people need to understand. When you get a head coaching job in the NFL or NBA and you’ve been an assistant for a while, you’re a multimillionaire already. Yeah, you want to be paid, but that’s not why you’re in there. And it is humiliating.
And it tears your heart out when you are fired. I mean, right now, Atkinson, I bet if you kind of pull the bandaid off over that, asked him how it felt that fourth year in Brooklyn after they had made the playoffs in year three, and he had a young Caris LaVert and Jared Allen and some other guys coming to see that they just ripped it up. I mean, that’s one of those, I never got to finish it. I never got to see it.
And you know, right now it’s why JV Bickerstaff is hurting because in his view, we keep progressing, you know, what did I really do all that wrong? And yeah, the fact that JV has got another couple of years in his contract at 5 million a year or whatever, and we ought to be living there, but they’ve already made all their millions. They’re in this for a different reason and it’s not money. They’re all money. Yeah. No. And, and they want, and they want to build things. A lot of them too. They have visions for teams and
David Campbell (45:53.346)
Yeah, they all have money. They don’t all have rings. So that’s what separates it.
Terry Pluto (46:02.734)
And that kind of stuff. Interesting thing Furtel said to me about when you sit with Kerr, he said Kerr does some really unorthodox things coaching wise. You know, compared to Phil Jackson, now Phil Jackson would, you know, sometimes his team would give up an 18 to two run. He won’t call time out. He wanted the players to work through it. He had all these different theories. He said Kerr, you’re sitting next to him, you kind of get the courage to try something you think is right.
But you’re afraid you’ll be second guessed about. And, you know, the curse thing was always like Jackson. I’m going to go down with what I think is right. And, you know, there, so hopefully he thinks that will help Atkinson also.
David Campbell (46:46.146)
Hey, you mentioned JB a minute ago, Terry. I did want to touch on, when I was off last week, I saw that JB did an interview with Sirius XM and a lot of Cavs fans were wondering if he took a shot at Jared Allen. I wanted to read the quote and kind of get your thoughts on it. He, JB said on this interview, this is a guy who was, he’s talking about Doncic being able to play through the finals, in pain. He says, this is a guy who was taking shots in his ribs so that he can go out and play. Right.
Terry Pluto (46:53.902)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (46:59.214)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (47:05.422)
Mm.
David Campbell (47:12.418)
He was playing through pain. He wasn’t complaining. He was still playing 40 plus minutes trying to go out and get it done. Terry, was this a shot at Jared Allen?
Terry Pluto (47:22.542)
Even if he didn’t mean it, it sounds like it. It sounds like it. Yes, that’s why. And it turned out actually it was a thoracic something or other, which is more in the chest area, not the ribs. Remember I’m Mr. Broken Ribs here. I was always bat, you know, backing Jared on that. Cause I just had them in November and I just think it was a hurting coach speaking out, but it was a dumb thing to say because that stuff sticks to you and you know,
David Campbell (47:25.154)
I agree. Once you mention the word ribs. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:51.79)
Players don’t like it when you question another, even if they’re questioning the guy’s ability to play, they don’t like it when the coach does. That could end up costing JB long -term in terms of trying to get another head coaching job. Although I’ll tell you this, if I’m in Detroit, I’d hire him anyway.
David Campbell (48:08.162)
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I would too. I was thinking of that line in Moneyball where Arthouse says, I’m thinking about how I’m going to explain this in the off season when I’m looking for jobs. And this was kind of, it just felt like that. He was trying to explain like why they didn’t beat the Celtics and why it went the way it went and yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:20.814)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:27.918)
Yeah, he would have just been better off. I mean, the old thing, stand on your record. You know what you say in that point? The Celtics lost three total playoff games. I got one of them. I played them close. Right. And I played them close with Mitchell and Allen out. That’s it. And then, and I would even throw out in there. Nobody made the got.
David Campbell (48:40.354)
down two players practically.
David Campbell (48:48.358)
All right, well, we’ll see if JB gets hired. I think you’re right. I think he’ll.
Terry Pluto (48:54.606)
won a round in the playoffs without LeBron James with Cleveland since 1993 till we did it. End of story. That’s it. Yeah.
David Campbell (49:02.53)
And that’s enough. Hey, let’s touch on the draft real quick, Terry. The NBA draft is tomorrow night. It’s not 37 rounds, it’s two. And as usual, as they cut it back in recent years, round one, Wednesday, round two, Thursday. I wanted to ask you about Enrique Freeman, the player from Akron. Six, seven, I think we’re seeing mostly second round. I think I saw Golden State was mocked to take him in the second round. Do you think he’s going to have a good pro career?
Terry Pluto (49:11.342)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (49:24.142)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (49:30.862)
Yes.
David Campbell (49:31.042)
And maybe for people who haven’t seen him play, you could tell them what you’ve seen from him.
Terry Pluto (49:34.766)
Well, I mean, he’s a local kid, he’s east side of Cleveland, St. Martin de Porres, his mother’s a policeman in the Cleveland Police Department. He came to Akron U on an academic scholarship. He had zero offers from any team, any school. His first year, he just went to school and played pickup basketball. Then he made friends with the...
playing pickup games with the manager on the basketball team. He went to the open trial, John Gross, the coach there never heard of them. You know, sometimes they have no idea who he was. He liked this young athletic guy running all over the place, long arms, long legs, fast, brought him on the team as a walk -on. And he ends up being one of the most decorated players in Akron history. He is a, I compare him a little bit to Larry Nance Jr. In that he’s...
You look at Nat, you go, well, he’s not really a great outside shooter. And, but it’s like, he’s so smart. He can really jump and you just, you do the plus minuses with him on the floor. It seems like you’re always better when he’s out there. he’s the kind of player that could really help a good team. you know, you don’t take them the first round or anything. Although Larry Nash Jr. Was the Lakers was shocked everybody and it took Larry Nash Jr. Out of Wyoming in the first round. And you know, he said he’s still playing. So.
I wouldn’t be surprised, like somebody like Miami, Golden State, his skills translate better on a good team, because he’s worked on his outside shot and everything, but that’s not his game. But boy, the rest of it is. By the way, he doesn’t just have his degree, he has an MBA, Master’s of Business, as he has to the MBA, so maybe he could do his own contract, I don’t know.
David Campbell (51:23.618)
Yeah, he’s some story and I’ve been trying to think Terry after watching him for a couple of years at Akron, like you see guys every so often and you can’t explain how they know where the rebound is going to go. But they know like Dennis Rodman was like that. But the way, the more I thought about Freeman, like the guy that keeps coming into my head is Draymond Green. And, and, but I think that Freeman might actually be a better shooter. I think he shot 37 % on threes. He didn’t take a lot last season.
Terry Pluto (51:34.318)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (51:44.27)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (51:50.67)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (51:53.282)
But this guy just has a nose for the ball and just makes difference making plays all the time. And I think you’re right, some team that just needs somebody who can give you 15, 20 minutes if needed and just does all the little winning things, he’s gonna find a spot. I think he’s gonna have a 10 year career. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (52:11.566)
Yeah, fans will love him and I hope that the I think he’s 24 because he was in school like six years or whatever between the year he set out and the COVID year and everything. So calves don’t have.
David Campbell (52:24.418)
Yeah, just to be clear, I’m not saying he’s going to be Draymond Green, because Draymond Green is an all -time great, but he’s that type of player that just does all these small things that add up to win. Yeah, that’s a good way to put it.
Terry Pluto (52:28.11)
the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the - the -
Terry Pluto (52:35.406)
It’s like a Mr. Plus minus, you know, he does well. The team does that when he and he’s, and he’s just such a great kid. I would, I really hope, I wish the cats had a second round pick. They don’t, I guess they could buy into the second round. You can, you know, you could just buy a second round pick and they’ve done that in the past. because I think he would help them. You know, there’s your wing guy that maybe could, defend some people in that. So.
David Campbell (53:02.946)
We shall see.
Terry Pluto (53:02.958)
Keep an eye on, and I’ll just confess, I don’t know, I’ve not looked at the draft much at all in terms of what the cows will do, and so I don’t even want to try to guess.
David Campbell (53:11.842)
Yeah, there’s a lot of French players at the top. I think they’re saying this Zachary Rissachet from France will be up there and Alexander Sarr is another one. So anyway, we’ll see how it goes. You know how it is. The team’s falling in love with the player and all of a sudden it’s the number one pick. So I don’t think there’s like a consensus at this point. Yeah. All right, let’s touch on the Browns real quick, Terry. They’re kind of off here until training camp starts.
Terry Pluto (53:17.006)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (53:29.422)
Yeah, and number 20, I have no idea.
David Campbell (53:38.85)
which will be July 25th down at the Greenbrier. You wrote over the weekend about 33rd team writer Ian Valentino, who says that the Browns have the third most talented roster in the NFL. What did you think when you saw that?
Terry Pluto (53:53.614)
Yeah.
Really? I mean, it just did. Now, he did clarify that a quarterback makes such a difference. You know, it’s like, I think he had him right above the Kansas City Chiefs, but you know, the quarterback council, but he just talked about depth of roster and that, but a top 10 roster in the league? Absolutely. And 33rd team is an interesting website. It’s run primarily by Joe Banner and Mike Tannenbaum, the two guys that
David Campbell (53:57.474)
You
Terry Pluto (54:26.286)
or former NFL execs. And if you see, they have a lot of film breakdown and some pretty nerdy football stuff on there. So I don’t think they just, they don’t want stupid stuff on their site. I can tell you that. So there’s probably some, some thought to that. And then I kind of looked at, well, were the Browns being predicted by most people? It looked like a lot of nine and eights, you know, for the gambling line and, and that stuff.
David Campbell (54:51.49)
Yeah, you had eight and a half wins as the over under on wins by the Browns. I thought that was low. I mean, I know they have a tough schedule, but geez, they won 11 games with five quarterbacks last season. And people are like, well they had Flacco and he was on fire. But I think there’s way more quarterback talent on this roster than there was a year ago. And even if Deshaun Watson can’t play a few games for whatever reason, injuries or whatever, like they’re, that’s a low number to me, but.
Terry Pluto (54:55.47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (55:03.31)
Yeah.
David Campbell (55:21.186)
Hey, it’s the NFL, you know what I mean?
Terry Pluto (55:21.742)
That’s where they are and the go -to that has to do a lot with, I mean, Watson’s view nationally is really negative between the baggage he came in with and the contract and the suspension and the injuries. And, you know, their view is that he just won’t last. And even if he does play,
that he’s not this elite quarterback. So he’s got a lot of that to prove. The thing that I believe that the Browns are a good organization now with Barry and Stefanski. And they’ve been able to work around some stuff last year, as you mentioned. And that’s why nine and eight’s a little low. I mean, the schedule’s difficult. But a lot of times, some of these teams you think are good turn out the quarterback gets hurt or whatever, then they’re not.
David Campbell (56:17.058)
Yep, injuries change everything as we know.
Terry Pluto (56:19.758)
But yeah, it’d be interesting to know what other people think. I mean, where would you write the Browns? David, where would you put the roster overall?
David Campbell (56:26.562)
I think they’re top five. I really do. And when they’re healthy. And I didn’t want to mention that 33rd team list. It was San Francisco number one and Philadelphia number two. The Chiefs weren’t even in the top three, which I...
Terry Pluto (56:37.066)
Yeah. Right. So in Baltimore, they’re ahead of Baltimore, the Browns. I mean, it’s just, to me, I had a hard time with some of that, but saying for me, five to eight, somewhere in there, sure.
David Campbell (56:40.674)
Mm -hmm.
David Campbell (56:50.018)
All right, well, as we said, they are going to start in training camp on July 25th down in West Virginia. It will be here before we know it. So Terry, we’ve been trying to do like a book of the week or some kind of a pick of the week. And I know you have a book you want to talk about this week. Why don’t you go into that?
Terry Pluto (57:03.566)
Yeah, it’s a writer I love. It’s Tony Hillerman’s daughter, Anne Hillerman. Tony Hillerman wrote all that. Well, Dark Winds, I think is now the Netflix or whatever the show is on there based on his novels in New Mexico. This book is called Lost Birds by Anne Hillerman. She’s continued the series that Tony Hillerman started. And I think she’s written about eight of these. I’ve read them all. In fact, I think in some ways she’s better than her father.
characterizations and writing talent and my wife thinks so also. So they’re really cool books. It gives you a lot about the Navajo culture, the feel for the Four Corners area there and the reservation and the rocks and I just love it and they’re really cool stories.
David Campbell (57:53.954)
All right, check that out. And I didn’t want to mention, Terry, I don’t think we’ve plugged in any of your books in a while, but if you want to check out some of Terry’s books, and there are many covering all different sports faith, many, many topics, Terry’s books are at terrypluto .com and you can see those all there. So, all right, you ready for a few listener letters, Terry? All right. A month or two ago, we started talking about sports phrases that annoy us and don’t sleep on was the one that I threw out to kind of get it started because.
Terry Pluto (58:09.678)
Sure.
Terry Pluto (58:17.294)
Okay.
David Campbell (58:21.922)
Make a prediction or don’t. Don’t say don’t sleep on somebody. But Caleb Mackey, our longtime listener from Columbus, had one. And he says, hey, Terry and David, sports cliche that needs to be banned, a free fall on draft day. Every year, a handful of QBs get built up and overhyped by the media prior to draft day. Think Malik Willis and Will Levis as recent examples. This results in them inappropriately climbing everyone’s mock draft. Then reality hits when teams draft players based on their actual skills and not their media hype.
Inevitably, this discrepancy between mock drafts and reality is a freefall. The term freefall inappropriately places the blame on some poor 22 year old kid who is chasing his dream rather than the media pundits who misjudged his talent. The player gets labeled a failure before he even starts his NFL career. Draft analysts blame this freefall on character issues, quote unquote, or work ethic, quote unquote.
when they should be saying, we got this wrong. Please take ownership of your horrible predictions. Sorry for the rant and thanks for all your work. I get so much joy, Terry, from your columns and podcasts. Thanks for that, Terry. That is true. That happens every year, doesn’t it?
Terry Pluto (59:30.158)
Yeah. And a lot of times it isn’t. I mean, it’s Mollick Willis’ fault that probably he was drafted where he should have been. That other people were ranking him too high.
David Campbell (59:39.714)
Yeah, and we’ll let us sit in that green room and the cameras are on him and it’s just it’s awful. It’s an awful situation. Yes.
Terry Pluto (59:44.238)
I mean, Brady Quinn was, was, was the initial one. Remember that where it really was that he’s sitting there and the poor guy in his tuxedo and he’s sweating and, and it is why, you know, some of these guys decide I’m not going to this thing because I don’t want to be that guy sitting there in the end of the first round end. So, I mean, drafting is. Yeah. I mean, I will always like that and fine, you know, I’ll, I’ll catch the big ones and they could draft me when they feel like it.
David Campbell (01:00:04.45)
Yeah, take the Joe Thomas approach and go fishing, right?
David Campbell (01:00:14.722)
Perfect approach. So, all right. And then Terry, you asked fans and we’re still getting some of these to send them their foul ball stories. This one is from Gary Pollock from Woodland Hills, California. Gary says, I moved to LA over 40 years ago, but I’m still a diehard Cleveland fan. I used to go to the Indians games every Friday night with my dad at the old stadium. Even at the end of the year when it was cold, wet and empty, despite the empty stadium, I never got a ball until one night I got two balls, both hit by Brett Butler.
Terry Pluto (01:00:39.886)
No, the same guy
David Campbell (01:00:42.05)
who I believe was traded by Ted Turner. Yeah, that’s what he says. Who I believe was traded by Ted Turner during a playoff series and then changed his mind, but we still got Butler. I think he offered us a better deal later, but we kept Butler. I then moved to LA and my company had season tickets to the Dodgers in the first row of the second deck. I’ve gotten many balls there, but the first two I got were hit by Brett Butler. Yeah, that’s what he says.
Terry Pluto (01:01:06.51)
No, so I got him in Cleveland and built...
David Campbell (01:01:10.274)
I probably have a million stories since I have a great sports memory. One night in Cleveland, I got to hit against Mudcat Grant with another 1 ‚000 kids at an Indians promotion. I told him to throw his hardest pitch and I smoked it. It hit at the end of the infield and rolled to the fence. He came and shook my hand. I was only five foot six and 135 pounds. And he said he was impressed. I have many other stories, but around 1989, I was at a Dodger game and Fernando Valenzuela threw a no hitter against the Cardinals on a Friday night.
Terry Pluto (01:01:17.358)
Wow.
David Campbell (01:01:39.458)
It ended in a double play and Dave Stewart also had a no hitter earlier the same night. I then flew to Cleveland on Saturday and took my two sons to the Indians game and Dave Steeb threw a no hitter against the Indians that afternoon.
Terry Pluto (01:01:51.182)
That’s not right. I mean, I’ve been to all these games. I’ve never seen a no hitter. No, never.
David Campbell (01:01:55.01)
Yeah, I remember you saying that. Anyway, he says, I believe it set a record that season that there were 10 no hitters and I saw two of them in less than 20 hours. I was probably the only person in the world. That’s some great stories there, Gary. Thanks for sending that in.
Terry Pluto (01:02:03.47)
And then Brett Butler hit yet another foul ball that you caused.
Terry Pluto (01:02:10.094)
Yeah, it is. And also that is kind of like go figure baseball. I think has more go figures to it. Like random things that happen that this is hard to fit. It’s hard to figure.
David Campbell (01:02:17.378)
You
David Campbell (01:02:23.394)
Yep. All right. And here’s our last one. This one is from Keith Vanzup from New Jersey. And Keith says, in response to your request for stories on how I got a foul ball, does the below qualify? It isn’t technically a foul ball. Back in 1978, me and my two brothers went to an Indians angels game at Anaheim stadium early enough for BP. We had seats near the right field down the right field down the first base side. There was a pitching mound right next to the stands and who but Mudcat Grant was warming up to throw batting practice.
One of his first throws was errant and landed in the seat right next to me. Never having come close to getting a foul ball, I was ecstatic to have a major league baseball come to me so easily. That was until Mudcat came over to me and asked for the ball back. He must have read the disappointment on my face. He said he didn’t want to go back to the dugout to get another ball. And he promised to give me the one he was warming up with back after he was done. After he finished his last warmup pitch, it was clear he had forgotten his promise to me.
Terry Pluto (01:03:05.454)
Hahaha!
Terry Pluto (01:03:19.982)
Hmm.
David Campbell (01:03:20.61)
because he made a beeline running to the pitching mound, my souvenir in hand. I called out to a Mudcat, what about my ball? Without breaking stride, he turned, jumped in the air and fired a high arching ball in my direction from about 75 feet away. Fortunately, it was right on target because there were quite a few fans around me who had no idea of the pact that I had made with Mudcat. As far as they were concerned, that ball was fair game for anyone who could get it.
Terry Pluto (01:03:27.63)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:03:42.286)
This is it.
David Campbell (01:03:46.274)
Had the ball been a few feet either side of me or I had dropped it, another person would have had that ball. Fortunately, Mudcat Grant threw a strike to me. I still have that baseball today, 46 years after I snagged it. That memory suddenly came back to me when hearing about Mudcats passing not long ago. It’s a memory I hadn’t thought about in years. Thanks for the memories. So again, that’s from Keith. Keith Bounds up in New Jersey.
Terry Pluto (01:03:46.67)
you
Terry Pluto (01:04:05.518)
I mean, what a class, class act Mudcat was just a, just a tremendous person. I knew him fairly well. He was my first autograph.
David Campbell (01:04:16.354)
Yeah, that’s right. And you’ve written about him, and I know you’ve taken...
Terry Pluto (01:04:17.518)
first autograph Mike K. Kramp, you know. I would have been disappointed if he had not, you know, kept the ball after that, but.
David Campbell (01:04:25.346)
Well, you’ve always said that you get more emails or have gotten more emails about Mudcat grant stories of interactions than anybody else you’ve ever had. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:04:30.158)
yeah, just stuff like that. He really, he just, you know, he was from dire poverty, La Cluchi, Florida, he said, which is inland Florida. And he was one of the first African -American pictures and just a guy that is just, it’s one of those, I wish I even had gotten to know him better.
David Campbell (01:04:55.298)
Hey, while we’re on baseball memories, Terry, I did want to ask with the passing of Willie Mays last week, did you ever run into Willie Mays during your days? Yeah, because I know you were covering the Orioles back then and he would have been in the National League.
Terry Pluto (01:05:01.134)
I did not. I did not. I was trying to rack my, yeah, trying to rack my brain and you know, he was with the giants basically the whole time than the Mets and, no, I did not. And you know, the remarkable thing about me is I think he was like 5 ‘11″, 180 and he had 660 homers, you know, because he seemed bigger than life, when he played, but he really wasn’t, he was stocky in that. And I just,
You know, it was cool to see that catch again on Vic Wurtz. Is it still a great catch? Yes, it is. I believe center field there was 440 feet.
David Campbell (01:05:41.026)
it was longer than that. I couldn’t believe it. I think it was 480 or something, Terry. Yeah, it’s crazy. And it wasn’t the Polar Grounds. It was like 305 down the lines or something. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:05:43.758)
Yeah, it’s a ridiculous number.
Terry Pluto (01:05:50.158)
Yeah, right. Because that’s on that 54 series. Dusty Rose kept like taking these half swings and then hitting the ball. I, Dusty Rose later became, I hope my memory is correct. A bus driver for the New York city transit system. I mean, look, you know, you didn’t make a lot of money and that was it.
David Campbell (01:06:07.714)
Wow.
David Campbell (01:06:12.994)
Well, a giant of the game for sure. And yeah, I’m trying to find that picture with how far it was to center field and I can’t find it. Three, we’ll have to find that for next podcast. It’ll be a reason for people to come back and listen. Or they can look it up.
Terry Pluto (01:06:20.814)
Mm -hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:06:24.654)
Yes.
You know, it was like, see, I know it was at least 440 and it might’ve been like you said. Because, you know, because the, Evans Field always had all the glamor and the stuff, but you know, Evans Field was one of those things. All right, I found it.
David Campbell (01:06:52.738)
You did? Where was it?
Terry Pluto (01:06:54.798)
483 feet. All right, here we go. Left field, 279. Left center, 450. Center, 483. Right center, 449. And down the right field line, 258.
David Campbell (01:06:57.058)
okay. So I was pretty close.
David Campbell (01:07:02.242)
Ugh.
David Campbell (01:07:14.05)
Man, Stephen Kwan would have had a field day down that right field line.
Terry Pluto (01:07:17.902)
Yes, and he would still be running too if he was, because even those balls in left field just went forever. There you go. I don’t quite get it. Whoever invented that, but yeah, I mean, there’s all these things like the absurdity that was the Polo grounds. You know, there’s a lot of stories online to read about that.
David Campbell (01:07:26.306)
That is the wildest dimensions ever.
David Campbell (01:07:32.962)
Yeah. Well, thanks for looking that up.
David Campbell (01:07:40.45)
All right, well that is going to do it. Thanks everybody for listening. Be sure to check out Terry’s newsletter once again. You can go to cleveland .com slash Pluto. There’s a blue bar at the top. You can get Terry’s weekly newsletter comes out every Wednesday at noon and get all the great thoughts and behind the scenes stuff that he will share there. We will talk to you next time, next week on Terry’s Talking.