John Wiswell's Reviews > Dune
Dune
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No one should argue the importance Dune. It laid the foundations for a great deal of the themes and constructs in modern science fiction. Frank Herbert was as important to the genre as Isaac Asimov and Arthur Clarke. Unfortunately, just like them, he's quite dated, and his books can be a labor to read. One thing he maintained from old science fiction was prim and scientific dialogue that no one would ever actually speak. I've known many scientists, and they don't talk like this. You're not going to convince me a child does.
The stuffy dialogue is inserted into even stuffier narrative, until it feels like nothing is organic about Herbert's prose. This is a terrible tragedy when you've got a world that he put so much effort into building - and it is an amazing feat of world-building, technically interplanetary building. But unlike J.R.R. Tolkien, who he is so frequently compared to, Herbert didn't make sure to include a great story in his world. Instead he included a story that frequently illustrated how clunky an artificial world can be, even if it's lovingly crafted. I struggled to attach or find interest in anyone, yet they're more archetypes than human beings, whose logic races past modern skepticism and whose dialogue is cloyingly artificial, the way people cared for the Hobbits, Dwarves and Rangers. In his world-building, Tolkien at least saved himself from being dated by antedating himself, and even with his illuminated prose, wrought more characteristics in just one protagonist than all of Dune's cast.
Even the political intrigue Herbert tries to fall back on was overdone in the Spy genre decades before he started this book. All fans of the "Genre" genres should appreciate Herbert's massive contributions, but they shouldn't pretend to enjoy the books if they don't, and they should be wary of certain pitfalls typical of science fiction that survived into his landmark work.
The stuffy dialogue is inserted into even stuffier narrative, until it feels like nothing is organic about Herbert's prose. This is a terrible tragedy when you've got a world that he put so much effort into building - and it is an amazing feat of world-building, technically interplanetary building. But unlike J.R.R. Tolkien, who he is so frequently compared to, Herbert didn't make sure to include a great story in his world. Instead he included a story that frequently illustrated how clunky an artificial world can be, even if it's lovingly crafted. I struggled to attach or find interest in anyone, yet they're more archetypes than human beings, whose logic races past modern skepticism and whose dialogue is cloyingly artificial, the way people cared for the Hobbits, Dwarves and Rangers. In his world-building, Tolkien at least saved himself from being dated by antedating himself, and even with his illuminated prose, wrought more characteristics in just one protagonist than all of Dune's cast.
Even the political intrigue Herbert tries to fall back on was overdone in the Spy genre decades before he started this book. All fans of the "Genre" genres should appreciate Herbert's massive contributions, but they shouldn't pretend to enjoy the books if they don't, and they should be wary of certain pitfalls typical of science fiction that survived into his landmark work.
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Reading Progress
Started Reading
December 1, 2006
–
Finished Reading
June 24, 2007
– Shelved
Comments Showing 1-50 of 149 (149 new)
![Sarah Thrasher](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1238086002p1/454827.jpg)
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
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![Lola](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1386491565p1/5127391.jpg)
![Teri](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1674364330p1/4357176.jpg)
I almost wonder if Herbert wasn't something of an Autistic savant, Asperger's syndrome perhaps? To be able to create such a phenomenal world and populate it with such cold, calculating people is almost criminal. I found myself noting that the main characters really only displayed basic emotions, hunger, thirst, fear, relief, anxiety, but they didn't relate to each other. The death of a child, or a husband, or a close friend is related matter of factly and though the affected party may 'cry,' you don't really know how they feel about it.
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
![Peter Samuelson](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1320791241p1/6873198.jpg)
![Mark](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1334310091p1/8755404.jpg)
![Sterling Malory Archer](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1357728196p1/7109261.jpg)
i think the book has great power and the names he used continue to resonate within me in a mysterious way but i really didn't like the characters.
at first i was very negative to the idea of a child messiah, it really bothers me, but after i found out that Paul was 15 years old and not a child i was surprisingly ok with it. but then as the book progressed all the characters became so very annoying, especially Paul, i couldn't finish it.
i latter read the plot and how it evolves and it was very interesting but still i would read the book for that. The only thing that i really wanted to read about is what happens when Halleck tries to kill Jesicca but i couldn't get that far.
![Marick](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1670515326p1/7829004.jpg)
![Lola](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1386491565p1/5127391.jpg)
wow, well I loved Dune. But I hated Lord of the Ring Triology. I thought it was soooo boring. I had to force myself to finish reading it just to give it a chance. The movie was 10 times better.
![Tiredstars](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1347184620p1/12490903.jpg)
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
I can certainly accept that interpretation. Cultural stiffness can exist, and could exist there. But if that was the case, I'd find it frustrating that Herbert presented them as so intellectually/emotionally homogenous, when in most cultures, especially extremely post-modern ones like this religion-seeding culture, there's usually dramatic diversity, especially across age ranges.
![Bobby Bermea](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1364583212p1/2277971.jpg)
![Stevie Roach](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1666750164p1/5867673.jpg)
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
I'm sorry to repeat myself, but this is the same objection as Tirestars, and I have the same reply. It's an acceptable interpretation that it comes from the cultural, but if so, the homogeneity across age ranges is entirely unbelievable. Having encountered this argument again, now it feels more like rationalization for something that is actually a style of dialogue and internal psychology that seemed to appear in a lot of SciFi of the time period. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to like it, but it was just unbearable to me.
![Palmyrah](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1245049082p1/2364523.jpg)
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
I don't know who you're rebutting with your "serious literature" comment. However, comparing Dune to classic myths and fairy tales doesn't do well by me. If you've done work in oral traditions and recorded a version of Dune performed like them, I'd be very interested to listen or watch a Youtube video of it.
Still - Ovid, Aesop, etc. made archetypes very interesting for two and five pages at a time, and Homer and Virgil gave their characters considerable development and depth at a longer range. There were Greek plays where characters languish that way, but they were written for actors to flesh out on stage. Dune is a doorstop of a novel written centuries of story development after those people, and it uses its space very poorly in contrast to what those texts did with theirs. Between narration and dialogue, it also is much closer to the conventional stilted SciFi of its own time than any bygone styles that I can recall. That's why I'd be open to an oral tradition adaptation if you've done such.
![Palmyrah](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1245049082p1/2364523.jpg)
Science fiction (only those who do not like it or understand it call it sci-fi) operates to different standards, as do myth, epic, fairytale, folktale, folk song and many other well-loved narrative forms.
Your review of Dune tells us nothing about the novel, apart from the fact that it didn't fit your particular standards of what constitutes good literature. I suppose that would be good to know if I had to spend the rest of my life on a desert island with you, but happily, that is unlikely to occur.
As a matter of fact, Dune doesn't fit my 'standards of good literature' either – but that isn't the point, is it? It works differently, and in its way it works wonderfully well – as you were obliged to confess, albeit ungrammatically, in your opening sentence.
![Roman Romaniuk](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1465655529p1/7944506.jpg)
Herbert's work and it's style is what it is, and it _is_ of a certain period in SF history. So, what's the big deal? That was then, and this is now. I'm fine with that.
I'm one of those odd ducks who re-reads fine works like his (_Dune_ series and others) at least once a decade or so, and comes away just as entertained and inspired as before, and sometimes with a little bit more benefit than the last time. :)
I think the first three novels were sheer genius, and they suddenly fell steeply downhill starting with the fourth. The way he wove together many apparently disparate social/political themes -- themes still very much of current concern -- cannot be understated. I think he deserves a bit more scholarly attention, in comparison (not necessarily in equivalence) to Tolkien's superlative _oeuvre._
"All fans of the "Genre" genres should appreciate Herbert's massive contributions, but they shouldn't pretend to enjoy the books if they don't, and they should be wary of certain pitfalls typical of science fiction that survived into his landmark work"
"'Pretend' to enjoy"??
Mighty presumptuous of you to second-guess all those other fans like that, Kreskin. How do u do dat?? ;)
"Be 'wary' of pitfalls"??
Wow, you mean they're in actual _danger_ if their tastes aren't the same as yours? ;)
These are just my opinions, of course. :)
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
I do not use the phrase "good literature," nor even the word "literature" in my review. If you're dismayed that my review about the book consists of my opinions of it, I don't know what to tell you. I didn't like it and explained the major reasons why. That strikes me as the purpose of a site like this. Were you hoping my review would repeat the plot?
Roman wrote: Mighty presumptuous of you to second-guess all those other fans like that, Kreskin. How do u do dat?? ;)
Come now, you don't need me to explain this to you. If you liked it, you're not pretending to like it.
But then, I wasn't "trying hard" like you suggest. I merely typed up some of my thoughts. As far as "pitfalls" - yeah, writing like this has caused a great deal of awful stilted SciFi since. That's a danger to many careers. I've watched plenty of writers struggle because of it, and it's saddening.
![Palmyrah](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1245049082p1/2364523.jpg)
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
Just curious - do you think the above review of Dune is nasty?
![Palmyrah](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1245049082p1/2364523.jpg)
![Jorge](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1213678510p1/1245250.jpg)
![Šimon Procházka](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1357314632p1/16081440.jpg)
However the point about the language the characters use seems completely wrong. This is not our society. If you are brought up with that kind of scientific language used around you then you are going to think in it as well. The reason why your science friends do not talk like this is because society has a basic standard on language. Although you will find that when they talk amongst each other they will use a lot of terminology and "inside jokes" they wouldn't use around you.
The prime example of this are gamers and the ilk. They seem to talk I their own language.
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
However the point about the language the characters use seems completely wrong. This is n..."
I might have appreciated it if a single character talked this way and contextualized the others. However, using your example, no group actually talks and thinks so homogeneously. I'm a gamer and I don't rattle on the way the stereotype does, and I consistently run into people who buck the stereotype in every fashion.
![Saul](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1336326156p1/9315194.jpg)
I must admit, I found the book hard to read when I was 10 or so. But I just re-read it (some 35 years later) and was overcome by what I found. In my opinion, it contains beautiful prose, full of mystical dialog and alien-like description. Moreover, if it comes off sounding strange, I think it's Herbert's attempt to create futuristic text which helps make it timeless in many respects. So many SF books published in the 60s contain stylistic prose of the 60s, they seem anchored in their founding culture. When the story is far in the future, stylistic prose just sounds silly; one can't take those books seriously. But Dune? It doesn't suffer from that, and almost reads like it came through some spice wormhole.
I don't know-- to each his own. But I for one found it one of the most well written books of our time. While other books will be forgotten, Dune will endure. Sorry, that's how I see it.
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
Your reaction to the book is your reaction to the book. No one is telling you that you have to have their reaction, and so your being "sorry" that you saw it another way is the only thing that bothers about your comment.
![Saul](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1336326156p1/9315194.jpg)
I just didn't want to sound too confrontational. Sorry ;)
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:)
Actually, the guy I REALLY wanted to know was the character who the son, worm-boy, kept bringing back to life from the vat. Duncan Idaho must have been a charismatic guy or a looker - he caused the God Emperor Leto to break training for his smile.
Putting my strictly literary interests aside, when I read Dune, I had never read anything so complex in science fiction before, and I saw that for the first time what science fiction could be like all grown up. I'm not in love with every plot point, but the politics involved in the books woke me up to politics in general. It also woke me up to the problems I was feeling about organized religion. I didn't understand before the manipulation and created history that can be built around these two weighty subjects - I was in my early 20's - it gave me permission to dig into college classes that explored Earth's real history for the last 3,000 years - and all of that literally freed my caged, religion-chained-up, bourgeois intellect.
Between Sherlock Holmes and Dune, I became a grown-up. Dune will always be one of my essential reads.
![Deeptanshu](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1397305341p1/17905490.jpg)
![Kirk](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1334763032p1/8866391.jpg)
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![Cory](https://s.gr-assets.com/assets/nophoto/user/u_25x33-ccd24e68f4773d33a41ce08c3a34892e.png)
Is it really so hard to believe that the children of a distant future, who have been conditioned since birth, would speak the same as adults? Especially since you've already agreed to accept space colonization and the ecology of Dune by picking up the book in the first place? Not to mention the fact that throughout the story it is repeated again and again that these are not normal children even for the time period. Let's try not to take ourselves too seriously John.
![Bobby Bermea](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1364583212p1/2277971.jpg)
I'm curious about the labeling of Dune as a "cult favorite". What does this mean exactly? What would be different if it were a --what?-- mainstream favorite? Accepted classic? Is The Lord of the Rings also a cult favorite? Star Trek? Stranger in a Strange Land?
Just curious.
![Bobby Bermea](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1364583212p1/2277971.jpg)
In light of a recent argument I let myself get dragged into on GoodReads, I'm feeling the need to add that I'm actually curious. A few people on this thread label Dune or the people who love it as a "cult" and it struck me as surprising and strange. A "cult" favorite would seem to be one that didn't have such a large and mainstream pop culture presence. So I'm curious as to your criteria or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning.
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
![James Barrett](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1347394611p1/12730934.jpg)
![Brian Cole](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1512656056p1/2478628.jpg)
![Bobby Bermea](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1364583212p1/2277971.jpg)
To each his own. I loaned it to a young(21) apprentice of mine at work and he is DEVOURING it! He comes in every day and gives us updates. It's great and gives the old heads a good memory because that's the way we all felt when we were reading it as well.
Sometimes it's not about the writer, it's about the reader.
![John Wiswell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1442531848p1/147818.jpg)
Every reading is about the reader's relationship with the text. I have no qualms with people who like the book, but a few with people who have qualms with not liking the book.
The book is nothing but clunky, melodramatic dialogue alternating with clunky, more-melodramatic inner monologues. There's something very annoying about Herbert trying to convince me that someone's inner thoughts sound like medieval soap opera dialogue.
The book seems to be all talking and acting -- no showing or describing. I agree with your contrasting to Tolkien. I had just come out of reading Jane Eyre. Completely different genre and time, but a similar and painful contrast to Dune: Bronte's book is full of beautiful, intricate scene and character description and natural dialogue. Going into the stark, unsatisfying prose of Dune was very disappointing.
It's frustrating that such a good idea (ecological warning) got such awkward treatment.