Nataliya's Reviews > Dune
Dune (Dune, #1)
by
We people tend to love the idea of a charismatic all-powerful leader who inspires faithful following and true fervor, that cult-like blind devotion. We give those leaders tremendous power to lead and decide and determine fates. So many stories rooted in the weight of our species collective history glorify this; so many countries still apparently yearn for powerful visionary leaders that others proclaim to be dictators. So many religions go to wars over the legacy left by a popular charismatic leader centuries ago, interpreting those legacies as the engine for the action, destruction, obedience.
Hero worship. Messianic worship. Prophecies and tyrannies. Desire for a Savior to rescue you from the evil. Good intentions paving the road to hell. It all leads to terrifying places which we may be powerless to stop.
This is a novel of a reluctant Messiah, the journey of a man becoming the Chosen One — but unlike the traditional story of a charismatic savior, this is a darker picture of the dangers of messianism and hero worship, of allowing blind devotion replace common sense. The book ends in an ambiguous place, and I presume the sequels may develop the theme or run away from it and make this a more traditional hero journey. But I certainly hope not. Because the dark implications of messianism say more about human nature than the happier stories based on the same idea, but with more idealism. We love our ideas of ideal benevolent rulers who can set things right, don’t we? Or the martyr figures inspiring “righteous” battles? Messiahs and figureheads seem to fulfill the deep-seated cultural longing for an inspirational leader, don’t they? Friends become followers and worshippers, and the metaphorical slope becomes quite slippery.
Yes, in Dune Frank Herbert hints at the dangers present in such ideas. What seems like your traditional hero’s journey turns out darker and more sinister. But it’s not the rise of an antihero either. It’s subtler than that, without actually being all that subtle.
Paul Atreides, in his own words, is “something unexpected.” A son of a planetary Duke (because an interstellar post-technology future is actually feudal) and a highly trained Bene-Gesserit concubine of the Duke (view spoiler) , Paul fits very well the idea of a Messiah of the tribal resilient society of Fremen people of the harsh desert planet Arrakis, neatly fulfilling their religious prophecies (view spoiler) and possessing genetic superpowers himself, augmented by rigorous training and catalyzed by the ingestion of a magical wonder-drug known as spice.
But Paul through his prescient powers can see what his mythologized destiny leads to. A galactic scale slaughter led by fanatics in his name. And there is not a way to escape it, once your life fits the mysticism of their faith (even if the faith and prophecies were stealthily prereplanted for sort of a similar purpose). Religious fanatics are destined to wage a brutal war that the Messiah is unable to stop.
With great power comes great responsibility, and all that jazz. But is any of it actually worth it? Wouldn’t the world be better without the burden of Heroes? Are you destined to become exactly what you’re trying to avoid?
All this is gently hinted at, laid out in the framework of the appealing Hero’s journey. It seems that should you desire, you can still easily choose to read it as a typical hero’s/antihero’s story, just less idealistic than it could be. But that would be Star Wars and not Dune.
And you also can’t help but be mesmerized by a harsh desiccated planet where life is focused on survival, where not even water but mere moisture is the most coveted and rarest thing, where hopes for a better, wetter, greener future quietly flourish, tied into messianic ideas but grounded in science. The place of nightmares, written vividly and skillfully, making me want to gulp down a gallon of drink just because I can, making me appreciate that my reality doesn’t hinge on surviving on my reclaimed bodily fluids.
The world is harsh, unforgiving, brutal, hostile. The characters - well, mostly Paul, but to an extent his mother Jessica as well - are cold, calculating, composed and often very unsympathetic. Paul’s father values lives over property. Paul’s actions, on the other hand, lead to eyebrow-raising among his father’s old lieutenants who note the difference in priorities:
It’s dense and complex, full of politics, short on actual science fiction but full of ruminations on human nature — and it leaves me feeling that all of this is a beginning of another cycle of violence, just with a new figurehead at the mast. As Terry Pratchett said, “But here's some advice, boy. Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions.” A new Hero or a new Messiah comes, and begets another cycle or struggle and violence, to be reset anew by a new figurehead sometimes in the future. All while sandworms quietly slither under the sand.
—————
Oh yeah, there are sandworms, too.
—————
4 stars out of respect for Herbert’s subversive story that made me think. I’m content with the story ending here, with ambiguity and dread for what’s to come.["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>
by
![3672777](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p2/3672777.jpg)
“I have seen a friend become a worshiper, he thought.”I don’t think I actually *enjoyed* this book. But I certainly respected the hell out of it. For a bit I thought I had it all figured out, pegged it as your bog-standard Chosen One story, and then it went where I didn’t think it’d go and neatly subverted my expectations. It tackled stuff that is uncomfortable and therefore is generally handwaved over in the usual SF epics. And for that I seriously respected this dense complex tome.
We people tend to love the idea of a charismatic all-powerful leader who inspires faithful following and true fervor, that cult-like blind devotion. We give those leaders tremendous power to lead and decide and determine fates. So many stories rooted in the weight of our species collective history glorify this; so many countries still apparently yearn for powerful visionary leaders that others proclaim to be dictators. So many religions go to wars over the legacy left by a popular charismatic leader centuries ago, interpreting those legacies as the engine for the action, destruction, obedience.
Hero worship. Messianic worship. Prophecies and tyrannies. Desire for a Savior to rescue you from the evil. Good intentions paving the road to hell. It all leads to terrifying places which we may be powerless to stop.
“A leader, you see, is one of the things that distinguishes a mob from a people. He maintains the level of individuals. Too few individuals, and a people reverts to a mob.”![]()
This is a novel of a reluctant Messiah, the journey of a man becoming the Chosen One — but unlike the traditional story of a charismatic savior, this is a darker picture of the dangers of messianism and hero worship, of allowing blind devotion replace common sense. The book ends in an ambiguous place, and I presume the sequels may develop the theme or run away from it and make this a more traditional hero journey. But I certainly hope not. Because the dark implications of messianism say more about human nature than the happier stories based on the same idea, but with more idealism. We love our ideas of ideal benevolent rulers who can set things right, don’t we? Or the martyr figures inspiring “righteous” battles? Messiahs and figureheads seem to fulfill the deep-seated cultural longing for an inspirational leader, don’t they? Friends become followers and worshippers, and the metaphorical slope becomes quite slippery.
“The Fremen have a simple, practical religion," he said.
"Nothing about religion is simple," she warned.
But Paul, seeing the clouded future that still hung over them, found himself swayed by anger. He could only say: "Religion unifies our forces. It's our mystique."
"You deliberately cultivate this air, this bravura," she charged. "You never cease indoctrinating."
"Thus you yourself taught me," he said.”
Yes, in Dune Frank Herbert hints at the dangers present in such ideas. What seems like your traditional hero’s journey turns out darker and more sinister. But it’s not the rise of an antihero either. It’s subtler than that, without actually being all that subtle.
“No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero," his father said.
Paul Atreides, in his own words, is “something unexpected.” A son of a planetary Duke (because an interstellar post-technology future is actually feudal) and a highly trained Bene-Gesserit concubine of the Duke (view spoiler) , Paul fits very well the idea of a Messiah of the tribal resilient society of Fremen people of the harsh desert planet Arrakis, neatly fulfilling their religious prophecies (view spoiler) and possessing genetic superpowers himself, augmented by rigorous training and catalyzed by the ingestion of a magical wonder-drug known as spice.
“He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this—the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.”
But Paul through his prescient powers can see what his mythologized destiny leads to. A galactic scale slaughter led by fanatics in his name. And there is not a way to escape it, once your life fits the mysticism of their faith (even if the faith and prophecies were stealthily prereplanted for sort of a similar purpose). Religious fanatics are destined to wage a brutal war that the Messiah is unable to stop.
“When law and duty are one, united by religion, you never become fully conscious, fully aware of yourself. You are always a little less than an individual.”
With great power comes great responsibility, and all that jazz. But is any of it actually worth it? Wouldn’t the world be better without the burden of Heroes? Are you destined to become exactly what you’re trying to avoid?
All this is gently hinted at, laid out in the framework of the appealing Hero’s journey. It seems that should you desire, you can still easily choose to read it as a typical hero’s/antihero’s story, just less idealistic than it could be. But that would be Star Wars and not Dune.
“He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards. In the moment of his triumph, he saw the death prepared for him, yet he accepted the treachery. Can you say he did this out of a sense of justice? Whose justice, then? Remember, we speak now of the Muad'Dib who ordered battle drums made from his enemies' skins, the Muad'Dib who denied the conventions of his ducal past with a wave of the hand, saying merely: "I am the Kwisatz Haderach. That is reason enough.”![]()
And you also can’t help but be mesmerized by a harsh desiccated planet where life is focused on survival, where not even water but mere moisture is the most coveted and rarest thing, where hopes for a better, wetter, greener future quietly flourish, tied into messianic ideas but grounded in science. The place of nightmares, written vividly and skillfully, making me want to gulp down a gallon of drink just because I can, making me appreciate that my reality doesn’t hinge on surviving on my reclaimed bodily fluids.
The world is harsh, unforgiving, brutal, hostile. The characters - well, mostly Paul, but to an extent his mother Jessica as well - are cold, calculating, composed and often very unsympathetic. Paul’s father values lives over property. Paul’s actions, on the other hand, lead to eyebrow-raising among his father’s old lieutenants who note the difference in priorities:
“Nothing money won't repair, I presume," Paul said.
"Except for the lives, m'Lord," Gurney said, and there was a tone of reproach in his voice as though to say: "When did an Atreides worry first about things when people were at stake?”
It’s dense and complex, full of politics, short on actual science fiction but full of ruminations on human nature — and it leaves me feeling that all of this is a beginning of another cycle of violence, just with a new figurehead at the mast. As Terry Pratchett said, “But here's some advice, boy. Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions.” A new Hero or a new Messiah comes, and begets another cycle or struggle and violence, to be reset anew by a new figurehead sometimes in the future. All while sandworms quietly slither under the sand.
—————
Oh yeah, there are sandworms, too.
—————
4 stars out of respect for Herbert’s subversive story that made me think. I’m content with the story ending here, with ambiguity and dread for what’s to come.["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>["br"]>
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Reading Progress
June 2, 2020
– Shelved
August 23, 2020
–
Started Reading
August 25, 2020
–
9.0%
August 29, 2020
–
51.0%
September 1, 2020
–
56.0%
"“Because I would have to maim and kill among them. This is not the proper course for a leader if it can be avoided with honor. A leader, you see, is one of the things that distinguishes a mob from a people. He maintains the level of individuals. Too few individuals, and a people reverts to a mob.”"
September 2, 2020
–
64.0%
September 5, 2020
–
88.0%
September 6, 2020
–
99.0%
September 6, 2020
–
Finished Reading
Comments Showing 1-50 of 121 (121 new)
message 1:
by
Kerry
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rated it 5 stars
Aug 23, 2020 05:13PM
![Kerry](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1573926586p1/2570383.jpg)
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![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Glad to hear it. I’m finally embarking on this reading journey, after the years of thinking that I should read it and never following through.
![Jennifer](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1482893253p1/1188456.jpg)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Almost! But it seems that you are quite far into this book already, and with super busy work week ahead I’ll be very unlikely to catch up.
![Charles](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1441928931p1/7750931.jpg)
I urge you to remember its more than fifty (50) years old. Its the archetype for recent books like Memory Called Empire. Also it was written in a different time. The American mantra in 1965 was Duck and cover, not Black lives matter. Be ready for some culture shock. Finally, look for the ecology theme that pre-dates the first Earth Day, and the parallels between spice and the petroleum economy (OPEC was founded in 1960). Enjoy.
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thanks, Nastya! And yes, I’m spending tonight in with K.J. Charles characters. My poor brain exhausted by Dune earner the reprieve.
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
I urge you to remember its more than fifty (50) years old. Its the archetype for recent books like Memory Called Empire. Also it was..."
It’s certainly obvious that it was written quite a few years ago. But it actually is not rife with all the pre-PC stereotypes that I was ready to encounter, so overall it did not age badly.
Ecology theme was interesting, and I would have loved to see more of the quiet persistent terraforming. But I guess for that I can revisit Kim Stanley Robinson’s Red Mars and it’s sequels.
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thanks, Marta! This book really made me think, and it took me a while to get through it because of information overload. I did not love it but it was good and I really appreciated it for that.
![PyranopterinMo](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1532798042p1/69761690.jpg)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
I am so tempted to watch “that movie”! After reading all the reviews the consensus seems to be that it is hilariously awful. I’m ready to giggle.
An agency to stop uncontrolled growth of other agencies? I absolutely love it.
![Sanjana](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1597582444p1/7613056.jpg)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thanks, Sanjana!
![Charles](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1441928931p1/7750931.jpg)
Short on actual science fiction? I suspect that's almost of 60-years of subsequent genre development talking? Ornithopters vs. helos caused my youthful, eggshell fragile mind to asplode on my first reading.
Consider, contemporary science fiction authors writing in the same genre, like: Martha Wells, Arkady Martine, and Becky Chambers. They all crutch on the Standard Sci-Fi Setting -- a bland trope that wormed its way into their science fiction as digital media saturated children. All of those authors are woefully short on actual science fiction. In 1964 while writing Dune, Frank Herbert had fewer sf tropes at his disposal.
Your point about any more Dune is sadly true. A problem with the later Dune novels was Herbert should have stopped with the extended Dune Epilogue that was Dune Messiah. Then he had a son who styled himself a writer. He and his writing partner wrote a lot of rubbish in the Dune-universe.
I've read the book several times. Each time I come away with something different. The first time it was the adventure. Somewhere in the middle it was the ecology of desertification. The last time was Herbert's usage of the early Muslim conquests of Late Antiquity and the Islamic prophet Muhammmad. It would be interesting to see what you'll find in another reading at a later date?
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Short on actual science fiction? I suspect that's almost of 60-years of subseq..."
I should explain. I meant it seemed more in the fantasy genre than the more traditional SF, focusing more on people in feudal environments and quite supernatural powers rather than more “hard” science, technology and modernity. Somewhere between “light” SF and fantasy, I guess, ornithopters and stillsuits notwithstanding. But this is not meant to be disparaging; I just heard so much about it being basically the genesis point of modern SF that I thought it would be more on the “hard” SF side. Wells, Martine and especially Chambers also write “soft” SF, and I really like all of them. I love the more people-oriented focus of soft SF. It was just an observation and not a criticism.
Now I’m curious to see how the upcoming film interprets the story, whether it will be made a bit more palatable to wide public sensibilities or whether it will stay truer to the heart of this story (at least how I saw it, which of course is just my opinion).
I don’t think I’ll continue with more Dune books. I took a peak on Wikipedia just to see what happens with the story — and yeah, I’m fine leaving it just at the point where the first novel ended.
I still would want more ecology. But that would have been a completely different book. Yup, definitely time to revisit KSR’s Mars Trilogy: Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars which has all that in spades.
![chvang](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1615384458p1/5371826.jpg)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
It’s quite interesting, makes much better sense than the glorified trope itself.
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thanks, Chang! I thought it was nicely done, that quick moment when Paul realizes that he cannot stop what he set in motion anymore.
![Samuel](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1672992689p1/12900194.jpg)
![Russell](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1620760115p1/20225651.jpg)
It is a very good verion of the chosen one / hero’s journey. Just remember, this was written in 1965; 14 years before Star Wars.
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thank you, Samuel! It is a really good book and I am really glad I read it. I don’t need to actually love the book to respect how it’s done and what it’s saying, and I respect this one a lot. And who knows - if I ever revisit it I may actually love it, now knowing what’s to come. I went into it completely unspoiled, even about sandworms.
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
It is a very good verion of the chosen one / hero’s journey. Just remember, this was written..."
Thanks, Russell! I’m excited about the movie as well.
I think it’s much better than the standard hero’s journey because it subverts the trope quite a bit.
And 14 years before Star Wars explains how Lucas clearly borrowed so much of the setting and plot (but not the actual ambiguous and uncomfortable parts that would not have had as much of a mass appeal).
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thanks, Justin! If you ever tackle it, I’d be really interested to see what you think of it.
![Sir Blue](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1635450795p1/108590685.jpg)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
That’s the first time I heard anyone praise the movie; I heard from quite a few readers that it was awful. I do plan to see the new one with Timothee Chalamet when it comes out later this year.
![jade](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1562419355p1/11030012.jpg)
i really appreciated the subtlety there as well; one of the greater things about the book that it really invites you to think about its philosophical meanings rather than state outright, "this is good or that is bad".
also, that final comment about the sandworms got a chuckle out of me. good stuff, Nataliya!!
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Thanks, jade! The subtlety was really nice. It’s so tempting to have everything clearly defined as good and bad - although Herbert does fall into that trap a bit with Baron Harkonnen (and I rolled my eyes at the completely evil fat gay pedophile with a Russian name). But he certainly does better with Paul and the implication of dangers of messianism.
And yeah, sandworms :)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
Feyd-Rautha_Harkonnen aka... Sting"
Oh. Oh. Oh.
Google shows me more images of Sting as Feyd-Rautha. Sting as Feyd-Rautha, wearing very strange winged tiny underwear. My eyes can never unsee that.
![](https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1599702116i/30084878.jpg)
![Nataliya](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1619377733p1/3672777.jpg)
"
I felt so traumatized by that image that I decided to share my misery with my GR friends. What was Sting thinking???