Hirondelle's Reviews > System Collapse

System Collapse by Martha Wells
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really liked it
bookshelves: shut-up-and-take-my-money, sf

So, this is the 7th Murderbot book - 5 of them are novella length, one a long novel and this is kind of in between in word count. It is very much part of a series. I saw the series being called a roman fleuve, which yeah it is, but it is science fiction about a bot/construct specialized in combat and security who clandestinely fred itself from corporate ownership and got to make its own decisions and as consequence now has a LOT of social anxiety while picking friends and figuring out what it wants to do along the way.

In a series like this, some parts of it will be more crucial than others. This is not a high-intensity (relatively to plot. All the books are action heavy. Yes, all!) book, it is the aftermath, psychologically and dealing with minor stuff like oh yeah what happens to the population of that planet now (just some hundred, at most a few thousand people...) and more worldbuilding and more (glorious) stuff on how those people (human and not. The non human are just chef's kiss..) deal with each other. It is not an ideas book, but it is a really well done element of a truly original series which focus on action with a lot of thought and care to the characters and worldbuilding. And it is really really well done, Martha Wells is just fully in control of the story. It is not a mind blowing story or a series crucial point, but so worth it (I voted for another book, Children of Memory for the goodreads reader choices awards for sf and I am not changing my vote. Because CoM goes deeper, in ambition and ideas about personhood and consciousness. This is just as good technically but it stays, intentionally, more at the surface).

Going on a side commentary, Martha Wells is writing HARD science fiction. By my interpretation of "hard" which is knowledge there about how things actually work, and some thought( or a lot of thought) about possible futures and trying to make the science and engineering compatible with what is currently known about scientific possibilites and extrapolate into, not only cars, but traffic jams of the future. People kind of dismiss the Murderbot series as "space opera" or "light" but honestly her worlbuilding, establishing is just so good to me, so very "hard", defined, consistent, subtle. It is not in your face, but the details (the terraforming here. How machines would talk to other machines across coding differences) they are all so very believable, deep. Wells has some tricks I think: she evades defining things too much by having Murderbot not caring or being interested, she infodumps when she wants by having Murderbot relate something to (probably) a soap opera it watched. Not unique to this book within this series, but the series is so good all around at it, and it gets so often dismissed I wanted to point it out. It is more than good, "hard sf" enough for me.

Plotwise, well this is action oriented, as all previous books. I am not totally convinced of a plot lever point (view spoiler).

Also, fangirling warning, OMG, it is again fantastic fanservice. Good fanservice, not snarking about that, it is a bad thing at all. Shipping with real ships and I love it, this is my favorite ship. (view spoiler) . I wanted more Three by the way, not enough of it but what there was, was great (trying to loan its suit! ahhhhhhh...)
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Reading Progress

October 20, 2022 – Shelved as: to-read
October 20, 2022 – Shelved
October 20, 2022 – Shelved as: shut-up-and-take-my-money
October 20, 2022 – Shelved as: sf
November 21, 2023 – Started Reading
November 22, 2023 –
60.0% "People often do not comment on it and there many who consider this "soft" sf (unlike stuff with very dodgy science indeed) or "space opera", but Martha Wells worldbuilding, her extrapolations into engineering and how stuff would work and society and all is so understated, camouflaged but so good, well thought...

And the tricks she uses to explain and not explain infodumps. Such good writing."
November 23, 2023 – Finished Reading
November 24, 2023 –
100.0% "Martha Wells is giving us perfect shipping material. With ships. She knows perfectly well what she is doing and yes please. And very good in all details.


My vote on the Goodreads choice awards for sf wilk still remain for children of memory though."

Comments Showing 1-32 of 32 (32 new)

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jrendocrine with reading looking up! i maybe had more fun reading about your reading SF, as a reader of SF, (you and me both) than i did reading the book (itself)


Hirondelle Thank you! I have many theories about sf, and the hard part is stopping me ranting a few times. No rants with Martha Wells though!


Spad53 " People kind of dismiss the Murderbot series as "space opera""
I don't understand this at all, to me calling it space opera is a compliment.
And those who think space-opera is light should have a dose of Alastair Reynolds. There is light space opera, but it's not necessary to read. Murderbot doesn't need classsifying. it's simply good.


Hirondelle Absolutely agree!


carol. Love how your enthusiasm shows through in this review. It is so fun!


Hirondelle Thanks Carol. Some books do cause an overspill of enthusiasm, more than others!


Chlorine I'm slowly working my way on a re-read of the whole series (intersperesed with other books) before I get to this one. I finished Rogue Protocol on Sunday so I still have some time before I get to this one!


Hirondelle I also did that, though I did the previous ones before, slowly on audiobook, but Network Effect I had to do on text also. It was worth it but not just for this one (which is lovely but is a little bit "filler"), it was just so nice to spend time with Murderbot and see it evolve and knowing those others better also.


Chlorine Yes I remember your comments about parenthesis being hard in audio. :)


Hirondelle The parenthesis are harder but doable, hardest of all maybe are the things in italic Murderbot wants to reply but censors itself and does not voice and says something else instead! That is more confusing even!


Chlorine I don't remember parts in which Murderbot censors itself in the books I've read so far. I'll try to be more attentive and see if I just don't remember them or if they appear later on. Just started Exit Strategy yesterday evening. :)


Hirondelle It does more of it in Network Effect I think, but poor thing, it needs to talk more to humans there also I think, even humans who care about it and whose opinions it cares about so more self censorship . As far as I remember (and yeah, it was only a few days ago, but brain buffer now taken with other reads...)


message 13: by Spad53 (last edited Nov 29, 2023 03:04AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Spad53 I love it when Murderbot talks to ..........er.....itself .
(awful word that, "itself")


Hirondelle I actually like the it. I like "it" a lot better than "they" when applied to a single person of indeterminate gender. I have no negative connotations to "it", my language does "gender" differently than english does and I think it is really interesting Martha Wells is reclaiming "it". It makes me think of gender and how related it is to languages and how meaningless pronouns really are. It is, I guess, one of those things in which Martha Wells is being quietly, very good at the speculation part of speculative fiction.


Spad53 If it's good enough for Martha Wells, it's good enough for me. It's been a while since I read a Murderbot story and I forgot she uses "it".
In Swedish we have female " hon" , and male "han" , and we have a newly invented "hen" which is neutral. I found it ever so useful when I was doing IT-support, we'd get mails from all over the world signed with a strange name that I had no idea if it was a girl or boy.
Forwarding to someone who knew the answer with "can you help it"
sounded impolite. We did have a lot of fun guessing.


carol. haha! fascinating story, Spad53! Sometimes at urgent care we'll get multinational names and we'll be guessing 'how do you say this?' Luckily the chart will tell us gender identification.


Hirondelle Do you have it in Swedish then? We do not in Portuguese, words have two genders which are masculine-neutral and feminine and then singular or plural. But it works differently from English anyway. People and things do not have different pronouns. I do not get the revulsion about it many English native speakers do.

Portuguese is a gendered language and it is impossible to avoid it when conjugating words but anyway one gender is neutra and is used if not certain and anyway the gender of word and its matching associated words are not about sex.

I call murderbot she in Portuguese because it is a secunit so a unit and unidades are she. It has no meaning and has no relation to any kind of roles ( units and bridges and mountains and whales…) or sex parts.


Hirondelle Carol the weird thing is how we decide the gender of neologism words which is by a kind of consensus. What gender is Goodreads? Or Amazon? Or say “web summit”? ( they got their own word gender wrong in some ads! It is a kind of consensus). Or Covid for example.

Portuguese has no officiall body to rule over it so it is weird how things evolve and tend to converge. ( it diverges wildly between European/african variant and Brazilian but that ship has sailed long ago and are not reconcilable any more anyway)


carol. It is strange. Sometimes in my head I bet myself with Latin words as to why certain words are gendered male or female (of course flor is 'la').


Spad53 We have the same system in Swedish, words have a "gender", but it's not called a gender, it's common and neuter. And the method of knowing which is which is (to me) sheer guesswork, you just know. After more than 50 years learning Swedish I usually get it right. But I shouldn't comment on language and grammar, I never learnt either English or Swedish properly, it's a disadvantage of being multi-lingual. Fascinating that even Portugese words are different in Brasil and Africa, I didn't know that.


Hirondelle Carol, something which got me in the Goblin Emperor was that it did precisely the reverse of latin language personal names (names ending in -a masculine, and names ending in -o feminine), but it is not like it is a rule absolutely even within a language (portuguese female names ending in -o). But from language to language it varies and it does not necessarily have a logic. And words from the same root have different genders in portuguese/french/spanish, to get things right one just has to memorize it.

And sometimes it is the "thing" itself which decides. Amazon launched its portuguese site and calls itself "a amazon", so that is solved. But "the web summit" in their ads called it self "o web summit", which is totally not what media calls it or people call it (because if it "uma conferência") so we are mostly ignoring it.

Spad, yes, it is fascinating how languages create these categories and categories so often do not "translate", move across different kinds of languages, and how much it might mold thought (or not!)


Spad53 Come to think of it American and English have quite a few different words too. Btw. Goodreads, Amazon and web summit would all have a "en" (common gender) in front of them, because we do have some rules, even if I ignore them. One of the rules is that foreign words have common gender. We also have local variations, an Orange is called "en apelsin" in Swedish, but here in Gothenburg we say "ett apelsin", don't ask me why! And the usual resevations about me not knowing what I'm talking about.


message 23: by urwa (new) - rated it 5 stars

urwa aaaa i'm so excited for this! Read a few pages a couple of nights ago but debating whether to listen to the audiobook (Kevin R Free is so good!) or read the ebook!


Hirondelle With the previous (Network Effect I mean...The internal chronology is strong and best read that way) I compared and read was better, but this is not as strong in inner monologue, so no advice, except: enjoy! (And I am sure you will, whatever format you pick!)


Nataliya I had more than just a moment of indecision between Murderbot and Children of Memory, especially considering that Tchaikovsky doesn’t seem to have the numbers of fans required to win.


Nataliya Also, we need a spin-off with Holism and Three 😅


Hirondelle I went with CoM, just because, went with my gut feeling (and CoM is elligible for the 2024 Hugos, just saying, as is Hardinge's Unraveller! Honestly, because of US pub date), but I will be happy if (when?) Murderbot wins!

We totally need a spin off with Three and Holism or any of them on their own really (Yo Martha, please... For charity, for anything really?) And she might give it to us, there are some pretty priceless relationship bits (view spoiler) in recent books, she knows very well what we like..


Spad53 I voted for Murderbot, and I haven't even read it, is that cheating? I haven't read any of the others either, in any category. At least I am reading System collapse now.


message 29: by urwa (new) - rated it 5 stars

urwa I wish more peple would talk about how Martha Wells writes the way different machines/bots/constructs communicate with each other. It is such a cool thing and without doing too much she packs in so much emotion in their dialogues! its just amazing!


Hirondelle Urwa, just a warning, I got no notification for your comment, just happened to see it when scrolling, how weird! If I ever seemingly ignore a comment, just warning this almost happened with this one. And it was a comment I wanted to reply and fangirl about.

Yeah, she is very very good at portraying how AIs might actually talk to one another, and think. Best at it I can think. All kinds of little details, say like Murderbot thinking in exact times and she manages to make ideas like different protocols and languages feel realistic but not cumbersome.

And she is also very good at something almost nobody gives her credit for (or notice?) which she is writing interesting stuff about gender and gender versus sex. In the Witch King there were all these interesting concepts possibly lurking underneath, just matter of factedly and it was so much more interesting (and realistic) than some in-your-face-see-me-be-modern stuff examples (which often are all not really thought out...)


message 31: by urwa (new) - rated it 5 stars

urwa Hirondelle wrote: "Urwa, just a warning, I got no notification for your comment, just happened to see it when scrolling, how weird! If I ever seemingly ignore a comment, just warning this almost happened with this on..."

Ah goodreads, will it ever work as it's supposed to? Might have to do with the fact that i was a bit mia?

But yes the way Murderbot translates the deeper meanings of what the other intelligence are saying but by this book the reader can almost translate it like that without murderbot?! Like I did not realise that until Murderbot started talking with AdaCol2 and it's so so cool imo.

She really is great at creating a queernormative world, I think it might have to do with how Murderbot really doesn't care much about gender or sex so it's there in the background in what it reads on the feed or whatever, but yeah it was really well done in Witch King as well.


Hirondelle I think I have seen some things getting fixed recently (like notifications for new comments when comments is over 50 comments, oops, now takes you to the right place at the final page rather than first page!). So crossing fingers! I did get this notification though, so good boy, goodreads

Yeah, she is very good at worldbuilding, except she is not splashy about it. She has a fantastic excuse to not have to explain too many things because Murderbot was not interested in learning them and she can Murderbot referring to its soaps to drop hints or explain things.. I am a fangirl admittedly...


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