Kailuo Wang's Reviews > Determined: A Science of Life without Free Will

Determined by Robert M. Sapolsky
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The following is an updated version. The original one can be found below.

This book is a misguided attempt at moral reasoning based on scientific facts. Lacking a philosophical framework that can establish connections between morality and science, the author relied on his own rather lenient intuition without realizing it. One might say that he is another victim who falls on false philosophical questions.

Sapolsky conceptualizes 'free will' as a governing element inside a body, free from physical laws, thereby qualifying it as supernatural. This intuitive definition is not inherently wrong, albeit not that useful in some philosophical views (I'll come back to this later). He devoted half of the book rigorously disputing against the existence of such a supernatural free will, of which there are many useful scientific insights. This is a view that is already readily embraced by all naturalists - for whom the whole universe is governed by physical law and "natural." And for antinaturalists, it's doubtful that any amount of empirical evidence will change their mind.

What is more problematic is when the book ventures to analyze the moral implications of the nonexistence of such supernatural free will. Had Sapolsky maintained his naturalist rigor, he would have discerned the absence of an established empirical grounding for morality as well, that is, it is not something natural that obeys physical laws (unless one subscribes moral naturalism). If one rejects the whole notion of free will due to the lack of empirical evidence substantiating its existence, they would have no choice but to reject the whole notion of morality on the same ground. This would render any moral proclamations meaningless, of which the book contains an abundance.

If one wants to reason in morality with rigor, they must start with a solid philosophical foundation rather than just their own casual day-to-day moral thinking. One of the first philosophical questions the author should've asked himself might be how morality holds significance without empirical evidence substantiating its existence. Rather, his lack of awareness in this area is utterly disappointing, sometimes to the point of frustration.

Thus, the book treats the two main subjects, free will and morality with completely different attitudes - free will with one based on rigorous naturalist principles and morality with one based on lenient, casual intuitions. Upon such an uneven footing, the moral belief system it aims to build can’t help to be incoherent.

So where exactly did Sapolsky go wrong in his moral reasoning? It’s his confusion in identities. Let me explain this confusion by analyzing his statement that you do not deserve anything because you don’t have free will. To highlight the issue, let me rewrite “you don’t have free will” as “your decision apparatus isn’t free from deterministic physical laws”. I believe this is what Sapolsky means rather than “you don't have a neuron free from deterministic physical laws”. So the statement becomes “you don’t deserve anything because your decision apparatus isn’t free from deterministic physical laws.” The crucial ambiguity in this statement lies in whether 'you' and 'your decision apparatus' can be meaningfully distinguished from each other for the purposes of moral judgment. To put it another way, what is the identity of “you”? Is it just “your decision apparatus” or something else? The obvious choice for most naturalists is that there is no distinction, your identity is synonymous with the activities in your brain, i.e., your decision apparatus, parallel to how an advanced AI is indistinguishable from its software program. If this is the position Sapolsky takes, as he seems to for much of his book, then the statement should be “your decision apparatus doesn’t deserve anything because it isn’t free from deterministic physical laws,” which is apparently problematic - should we not first understand how a “decision apparatus” might have or lack deservingness before evaluating the relevance of deterministic physical laws? If someone makes such a statement about an AI program - “An AI program doesn’t deserve anything because it isn’t free from deterministic physical laws”, a natural reaction would be “why/how does an AI program deserve anything in the first place?” A naturalist such as Sapolsky has to find a justification or basis for deservingness without concerning the notion of “freedom from physical laws.” Such a justification for deservingness will render the original statement false. Conversely, if no justification is found, then there is no deservingness to begin with, which also nullifies the original statement. Therefore this is a dead end for Sapolsky's statement, which leaves him the only other choice - a meaningful distinction exists between "you" as an entity capable of being morally judged and "your decision apparatus."

Here is a thought experiment to scrutinize the identities our moral intuitions assign to notions of control. Consider a car accident caused by a malfunction in the onboard electrical system. It makes perfect sense to say that the driver was not at fault because he could not control the vehicle due to the defective system. But what if we’re discussing a self-driving car where the “car” and the “driver” are one and the same? It wouldn’t make sense to say that the car is without fault due to its lack of control over itself, as its actions would be governed by deterministic physical laws. This suggests that the claim "you don’t deserve anything because your decision apparatus strictly obeys the physical laws" only holds up if we think of "you" and "your decision apparatus" as distinct entities and that "you" don't have control over "your decision apparatus." If we eliminate the distinction like we treat the self-driving car, the deterministic nature of physical laws becomes completely irrelevant in our moral assessment. Physical laws are exactly what the brain relies on to work. Your decision apparatus IS the configuration of all the atoms in your brain plus physical laws. If one accepts that "you" and "your decision apparatus" are the same thing, like Sapolsky did in the first half of the book, then physical laws simply cannot be deemed as something preventing the “you” from controlling "your decision apparatus". The unstated premise that "you" and "your decision apparatus" are separate underlies Sapolsky's (and any many others') conceptualization of free will as the influence "you" have over "your decision apparatus." The first half of the book rigorously argues against this assumption - there isn't a "you" other than your decision apparatus, there is no driver in the brain, "you" are the brain. But when Sapolsky makes moral statements he, under confusion over identity, brings the "you" back as an entity that can bear moral responsibilities and suggests that this "you" has none because it has no controls over "your decision apparatus".

What, then, could constitute this distinction if not a form of dualism—with "you" representing the immaterial aspect, and "your decision apparatus" the physical brain? By this interpretation of "free will," humans are not analogous to self-driving cars; rather, there remains a "driver" at the helm of the brain, an identity of the person that is beyond their brain, and it is this driver who assumes moral responsibility. Thus it’s clear that Sapolsky, who consistently refutes dualism in the first half of his book, dismissing the “you” beyond “your decision apparatus” as an illusory ghost, inadvertently leans back into it due to a lack of clear identities when discussing morality.


To end this review on a philosophically constructive note, the debate between free will and determinism can be handily resolved in philosophical paradigms in the line of pragmatism. Hereafter is my perspective, influenced by neopragmatism, especially that of Richard Rorty.

Concepts are not defined based on their truthfulness, i.e how accurately they represent reality, instead, they are defined based on practical usefulness for our goals. For example, the concept of “chair” is very useful for human beings that can sit, but imagine a world with plenty of chair shaped objects and yet no animals that can sit, the concept of “chair” would be useless and not exist in the first place. With the advancement of modern science, humans have been able to introduce more and more concepts such as cell, proton and black hole, that aim to represent elements in nature more accurately. But for neopragmatists, it's a mistake to take the accuracy of representation as the end. In fact scientists themselves, especially those who work in the micro dimensions, have learned to treat concepts as tools (their end is better prediction of measurements), unbothered by the lack of representations.

Similarly, the concept of “free will” existed long before modern science, it has been very useful for individuals and societies. We can try to clarify the definition of “free will” based on its origin and how it’s being used. We can and probably should define "free will" differently under different contexts as long as the contexts don't overlap - we do not need to give it a single definition that it represents something in nature - e.g. a neuron free from physical laws. Such a definition of free will is isolated and useless in many contexts where it disconnects from the other concepts based on “free will” but yet to be also redefined to represent something in nature.

Hence, the whole conundrum between naturalist determinism and free will is a false question due to a misguided redefinition of the concept of free will (due to representationalism). It’s time to move on.


P.S.
Thanks to Arthur Zey (see comments below) I realized the relationship between the concepts of volition and free will. The following are my thoughts on how this conundrum came to be.

When determining the moral responsibility borne by an individual's certain behavior, we take into consideration two factors: the number of alternative behavior possibilities available for them to choose from and the sophistication level of their volition process - the internal process of reasoning and choosing between those possibilities. Everything else being equal, the individual is more morally responsible if their volition process is at a higher level of sophistication. A child is less morally responsible than a grown-up thanks to this reasoning. On the other hand, given the same level of volition sophistication, the individual is less morally responsible if there are fewer alternative behavior possibilities. An impoverished starving man stealing food is judged less morally responsible than a wealthy man for the same behavior. An individual facing a single possible behavior choice is not morally responsible for that behavior. These two moral intuitions suffice for all our practical reasoning regarding moral responsibility. Note that they naturally do not concern whether volition itself has “free” alternatives or is deterministic, only the level of sophistication of it.

Then why is it intuitive that a deterministic universe and moral responsibility is at odds with each other?



I think it comes from three confusions.

The first confusion is conceptual. It is the confusion between the behavior possibilities post volition process with behavior possibilities before it. To better demonstrate what I mean, I’ll use a simplified scenario of a starving impoverished man deciding whether to steal the food. The man faces two choices - to steal or to starve to death. These are the behavior possibilities before his volition process. They are what matters when it comes to moral responsibility judgment. A deterministic world means a deterministic volition process, which in turn means there is only one possible outcome of it and one possible behavior the man ends up choosing. But this did not in any way change the fact the man had two choices to begin with before he decides. It does not reduce his choices to one. People who claim that determinism renders any decision process useless since there is no choice are confusing the choice possibilities before decision with the fixed possibility of one decision outcome. They reject determinism based on the absurdity of all decisions being useless, but the absurdity is really from the confusion, not determinism. This is apparent when we consider a robot agent. Imagine a robot programmed to make behavioral decisions on its own. No one has any problem that the program, hence the robot’s volition process, is deterministic. No one would suggest that it’s useless for this robot to make any decisions due to its deterministic nature.


The second confusion is historical. It originated when Christian philosophy introduced the term “free will” (liberum arbitrium) in the 4th century, which traditionally meant the lack of necessity in human will, resembles the idea of a non-deterministic volition process. This “free will,” I speculate, was introduced because the aforementioned moral intuitions are not satisfactory (to this Christian philosopher) due to their lack of causal relationship between volition and responsibility. The “lack of necessity in human will” sounds more causal and logical to explain why one has to be responsible for his behavior (it is not). Regardless of this speculative motivation, this historical notion of “free will” was actually introduced AFTER our moral intuitions. It’s not the other way around. If one gets this order confused, they will be tempted to believe that our moral intuitions are based on such a notion of “free will” and thus require it, causing a perceived contraction between determinism and our moral intuitions.

The third confusion is linguistic. The original meaning of “free will” gradually got lost for laypersons and became closely resembling the term volition. In day-to-day language, when people say “free will” they are referring to volition - the ability to reason and choose between alternative behaviors, free from coercion but not something free from physical laws. Volition is something that can be intuitively verified through introspection. So when people intuitively believe in the existence of “free will” they often conflate with volition. The opposite happens in the aforementioned intuitions on moral responsibilities - they think the degree of their "free will", mistaken for the original sophistication level of volition, is a source of moral responsibility. In a philosophical discourse though, the definition of “free will” is "clarified" back with the historical value, while the language of their intuitions remained unchanged. Now all of a sudden they have intuitions contradicting determinism.


Update Oct 28, 2023: added the last paragraph for further clarification.
Update Oct 30 2023: reworked to improve clarity, added a constructive part.
Update Oct 31 2023: added P.S.
Update Dec 2 2023: added a paragraph to pinpoint where Sapolsky went wrong.
Update Dec 12 2023: added a paragraph to clarify the identity issue
---ORIGINAL REVIEW BELOW---------

The main lesson is that no matter how brilliant you are, avoid writing a book on a subject that you haven't studied for years. Sapolsky defined free will as the existence of a neuron free from physical laws. Of course this is contradictory to the naturalist belief that the whole universe is governed by physical laws. But when people talk about free will, they mean different things, while the definition Sapolsky gave, upon some philosophical inspection, has no practical implications and thus is useless or meaningless to discuss. One simply cannot derive any practical guidance based on the non existence of the "free will" as defined by Sapolsky. To be more specific, when we talk about morality, we do not need to be concerned with whether naturalism is real, or whether something free from physical laws exists.

Sapolsky should have noticed that there is so much linguistic nuance and complexity in the notion of "free will" that it justifies more study into the existing philosophical discussion in this area, especially post WWII.
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Üstün Science's primary concern is to reveal the truth, getting as close as possible to the reality. Practical implications are secondary. Therefore, a neuroscientist shouldn't have the burden of applying their findings, at least it should be a choice (pun intended).

That being said, for starters, understanding human behavior in all its reality might help with having more empathy, or getting rid of dogmatic beliefs about human nature, and so on.


Kailuo Wang Yes, one should be very careful not jumping from a well scientifically defined statement such as "there are no neurons free from physical laws" to another non-scientifically defined statement such as "no one deserves anything."


message 3: by Arthur (new) - added it

Arthur Zey I'm only part-way through chapter 3, and your criticism is almost exactly one that I've been fuming about every other sentence as I've been reading!

There's a lot of really interesting stuff in here about how the brain works that expands on _Behave_ in a way that's more focused, but because of how he's defined "free will" as something so utterly absurd (even if that's what many people generally sort of hand-wavily mean by the term when they're not being rigorous) that so far, it's difficult to take some of his statements seriously. The whole moral judgment thing is an example of The Fallacy of the Stolen Concept par excellence, and even without stealing any concepts, it's a contradiction on its face: He's said, explicitly, that it's wrong to judge people for wrongdoing because they couldn't help their wrongdoing. But somehow, we're supposed to be able to "help" our moral judgment of them? This is not what morality is about.

(Context: I'm a determinist and think that volition is a specific kind of deterministic process in the brain that is a super important part of many types of human action/behavior. As a process, it's sensitive to moral accountability/judgment as an input, which is why it makes sense to judge ourselves and others. Not because of any weird interpersonal comparisons or "social justice" or sense of fairness or even that we "could have done otherwise" in a metaphysical sense, but because an action was produced (at least dominantly) by our volitional power (however that works--which is partly what the book actually explains), and moral accountability is an important input for future behavior. Example: Moral accountability affects our own brains and the brains of others and makes a difference in future action/behavior. Moral accountability does not affect the weather or a volcano. Of course, what moral accountability consists of, if you want to be scientific about the field of ethics, is an entirely separate conversation!)


message 4: by Jeffrey (new)

Jeffrey I've been pondering over this book, and during a couple different lengthy podcast interviews, Spolsky admitted in one of them that he hadn't even opened a philosophy book until shortly before writing his own. It's pretty astounding. The confidence he displayed in these interviews betrayed at a notable lack of rigor and awareness. Honestly, I'm baffled as to how he's being taken seriously in this field.


Kailuo Wang I loved Behave, it's witty, humorous and thought provoking. But after learning more about evolutionary psychology and gene-culture coevolution, I felt that Behave could have gone much further in depth.


Austen Cool, now tell us how there is anything other than environment and genetics in determining the present state of your body and mind.


message 7: by Kailuo Wang (last edited Oct 31, 2023 07:43AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kailuo Wang Austen wrote: "Cool, now tell us how there is anything other than environment and genetics in determining the present state of your body and mind."
The term "determine" is only useful when someone can reproduce the determining process and predict the result with some accuracy. It's meaningless to say that the weather 100 years from now is determined when no one can predict what that weather is (due to the fact that large complex systems are mostly chaotic)
Thus, without any practical implications, there is no practical guidance one can derive from the statement that "nothing other than the environment and genetics determines your body and mind." Such a statement is as practically meaningless as saying that the weather 100 years from now is determined. In pragmatism, being practically meaningless is the same as being meaningless.


message 8: by Arthur (new) - added it

Arthur Zey Kailuo:

Bingo. There's a difference between "predictable" (by humans) and "determined" (by physical laws).

Sapolsky himself has made the point over and over (up to chapter 3, where I am still), that all these factors amount to tendencies and potentials, and the generous interpretation of that is that these are epistemological claims, not metaphysical ones.


message 9: by Arthur (new) - added it

Arthur Zey I should have said "primarily epistemological claims, not merely metaphysical ones, to have any meaningful value".


Kailuo Wang I incline to characterize it as a primarily ontological claim.


Kailuo Wang Since as an epistemological claim it's pretty trivial to say that something supernatural doesn't exist to naturalists.


message 12: by Arthur (new) - added it

Arthur Zey In my haste, I don't think I was being very articulate.

Basically, I was saying that the main value of the evidence he was providing about the influence of neurotransmitters, hormones, childhood, genetics, culture, evolution, etc is that it gives us better understanding of the causal influences. It does provide us with _some_ predictive power (what I meant by calling it "epistemological"), but not deterministic predictive power--because within the context of our ability to know and calculate, they're merely tendencies and potentials.

I agree that these are also relevant metaphysically (or equivalently in what I think your usage might be, "ontologically", though that's not how I typically use the term), because, in totality, all the things in the universe, including human brains and their processes (such as volition), obey deterministic laws of physics, and all those factors he identifies are part of that causality. But to your point, you can identify the sorts of factors that are causally relevant all you want on a _metaphysical_ level, but they may end up being utterly irrelevant for our predictive power. And then moral accountability/responsibility is a-whole-nother issue, which I think is independent even of our predictive power.

So I was just trying to be charitable in interpreting the import of his observations about all those various factors leading up to human behavior.


message 13: by Cal (new) - rated it 3 stars

Cal Davie Totally agree. There were some interesting points in the book, and a great writing style. But his philosophical argumentation was pants. He didn't appear to really grasp what a lot of compatibilists actually say and think.


Kailuo Wang Arthur wrote: "

I agree that these are also relevant metaphysically (or equivalently in what I think your usage might be, "ontologically",


To clarify what I meant there. To me, there is an ontological distinction between the "free will" referred to in our moral reasoning and the "free will" as a special neuron (free from physical laws or not). And the book is claiming there isn't such a distinction.

Anyway, where I came from (Quine and Rorty), both ontology and epistemology are contentious terms that aren't worth much to ponder.


message 15: by Arthur (new) - added it

Arthur Zey I think I understand what you mean.

I was just trying to draw a distinction between what is (metaphysics) and our understanding of what is (epistemology).

I'm definitely not trying to quibble about terminology!

But I will say that I definitely appreciate engaging with you in these comments!


Kailuo Wang Arthur, thanks, likewise!


message 17: by Arthur (last edited Oct 31, 2023 01:05PM) (new) - added it

Arthur Zey Cal wrote: "Totally agree. There were some interesting points in the book, and a great writing style. But his philosophical argumentation was pants. He didn't appear to really grasp what a lot of compatibilist..."

Cal: I haven't engaged with the philosophic literature in a long while, but my recollection/impression was that compatibilists don't really do themselves any favors with how they represent their own positions, so it doesn't take much for Sapolsky's presentation to land as a strawman. I have distanced myself from the term "compatibilist" for many, many years, precisely because it's an umbrella term for all kinds of absurdities, and I don't want to be associated with all that baggage. I'm all for labels and useful classifications, but "hard determinist", "soft determinist", "compatibilist", and various others have never seemed that useful to me. First and foremost, I believe that volition is a real thing, and I regard this as introspectively obvious. (I think any other position is inherently contradictory.) Second, I think that volition is the crux is moral accountability. Third, I think that everything in the universe, including the volitional processes performed by the human brain, works by deterministic laws. The last of these is a complex scientific conclusion, which is the result of interpreting the observation of our senses, introspection into how our own minds operate, and, as a conceptual conclusion, is fallible (though I think it's very well supported by evidence and logic). My point is only that determinism is not self-evident the way that volition is. But I don't see a conflict between the two. But I also hate using the term "compatible", since that has some connotation of being separate things (potentially) at odds with one another, and that cedes too much ground to what I think are ultimately arbitrary claims about conflict, like somehow I need to have a label for my position against what I regard as illegitimate in the first place. I'm a determinist, plain and simple. Any view that volition is somehow exempt from that--or that it needs to be defended as "compatible"--seems to me an inversion of the proper burden of proof. If someone wants to claim that volition is at odds with determinism, propose a non-absurd understanding of what volition is, and then let's talk, but then you end up still being a determinist or not. In other words, a determinist who doesn't believe in volition is just mistaken in their conception of volition. A determinist who _does_ believe in volition is just a determinist. I don't need the label "compatibilist" to differentiate myself from an error that some determinists make.

That was a bit ranty, but hopefully that makes sense.


message 18: by Kailuo Wang (last edited Oct 31, 2023 09:14PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kailuo Wang Volition, defined as an individual’s ability to reason and choose between alternative possible behaviors, is core to the traditional conceptualizations of free will. Without going into whether volition possesses inherent moral capacity, I totally agree that there is nothing problematic, at least in moral reasoning, for this volition to be deterministic.

Inspired by your conceptualization of volition, Arthur, I had more thoughts on the root of the dilemma of determinism, added as a P.S. to the review.


Roberto Gejman Absence of free will by no means implies absence of morality. Morality is an adaptative tool that many species use to be able to strive in group relationships, and that the homo sapiens species has developed into sophisticated judicial systems and social mechanisms. Morality exists because it is a win-win business, which explains how or why the golden rule has been invented in all cultures. I believe that most people that argue for the existence of free will do so from fear of a false indignity and from fear of criminals, not from valid rational arguments.


Michael And yet the weather 100 years from now is in no meaningful way 'free'....


Felix Delong so, how exactly do you smuggle the free will in?


Kailuo Wang Felix, free will defined as a ghost free from physical laws is just a misconception originated from the three confusions mentioned. It's never needed as something that can provide any meaningful guidance to our behaviors. We didn't need it before and we didn't need it now. The conceptualization of free will we need is simply the ability for one agent to make decisions free from other agents' control.


Kailuo Wang One way to demonstrate the uselessness of free will as a something free from physical laws is to think about intelligent AI agents. Everyone agrees that they are deterministic and governed by physical laws, but no one would think that this should provide any guidance on how this agent should behave. One, especially a naturalist, can apply all the common sense moral reasoning onto this agent completely ignoring the fact it's deterministic.


message 24: by Barry (new) - rated it 1 star

Barry You nailed your analysis. This is one of the most poorly reasoned books I have ever read. It boggles my mind that all the gatekeepers in the publishing industry greenlit such a sophomoric unthoughtful book.


Yehoshua Rom You could have said right from the get-go that you believe in duality. Would have saved some time for me to figure out through your meandering "philosophical" discussion. And you are wrong. Sapolsky attacks exactly the concept that there is a difference between 'you' and 'your decision', and there is no "source of morality" that lies outside the body, which people like you are shamelessly inventing from thin air, but your justification is hanging
on something you accept as an indisputable, infallible source we all know, right?
By the way, what is the moral framework for evolution?


Kailuo Wang Yehoshua, I don't know where you read that I am a dualist. But if it's not clear enough I was attacking that Sapolsky is leaning back to dualism when he started reasoning in morality, which is by no means a way to justify dualism, merely to point out the inconsistency of his thesis.
What do you think is the source of morality and how is it related to the free will as defined by Sapolsky (a supernatural governing element)?

In what sense are you referring to a moral framework for evolution?


message 27: by Nicole (new)

Nicole Steenstra Excellent, detailed review. Sounds like this book is so poorly reasoned, it’s one to skip. Thank you for saving me (and others!) the time!


message 28: by Bob (new) - rated it 3 stars

Bob I agree to the extent that Sapolsky wiggles on the concept of morality. It is logically obvious that there can be no such thing as morality without free will, but Sapolsky disappointingly waffles a bit. He is a brilliant person, but this book was way too long, sloppily written, and meandering. Sam Harris did it far better, and much more pithily, in Free Will.


message 29: by vaishnavi (new)

vaishnavi Suresh Hi, this is a really detailed review and made me decide against buying the book, I just wanted to ask if there is any other work that you would recommend that handles the free will debate better than this


Kailuo Wang Vaishnavi, in my view, the problem of free will vs deterministic physical laws is just a linguistic confusion that doesn't justify a dedicated book. Whether one does have "free will" in a deterministic world depends on how "free will" is defined linguistically. As long as the language phrase "free will" is clearly defined, there is not much controversy left. See the self driving car example I gave, a self driving car either has free will or not, completely depends on how free will is defined. And in a deterministic physical world, there isn't much categorical difference between humans and self-driving cars.


message 31: by Kobe (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kobe De Peuter So, in other words you're arguing Free Will exists because
- Everything is subjective
- There's a humonculus in the head or some kind of soul
- it's morally pragmatic to believe in Free Will
- and 'poof!' a smoke curtain of semantics.

As all these arguments are dealt with in the book,
it seems almost like you read another book than I did.


Kailuo Wang Kobe wrote: "So, in other words you're arguing Free Will exists because
- Everything is subjective
- There's a humonculus in the head or some kind of soul
- it's morally pragmatic to believe in Free Will
- and ..."


Thanks for your comment, but I didn't make any of the above arguments. And I have no idea how you got that impression.


message 33: by Kobe (last edited Mar 12, 2024 06:35AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kobe De Peuter Kailuo Wang wrote: "Kobe wrote: "So, in other words you're arguing Free Will exists because
- Everything is subjective
- There's a humonculus in the head or some kind of soul
- it's morally pragmatic to believe in Fre..."


You're welcome, and IMHO you do.

- Your opening argument is 'the philosophically unuseful character' of Sapolsky's interpretation of Free Will.
-> Though he follows the most common interpretation of (Neo)platonic-Christian origin, the 'magical' free will generally referred to.
Furthermore, Sapolsky classifies the compatibilistic argument of 'multiple choices within a determined universe', as an unpractical and rather inconsequential interpretation of Free Will
- > This is not the 'free will' that one generally refers to (in our ethics.)
So his choice of interpretation makes perfect sense.

- Your next argument rests on making a distinction between ""you" as an entity capable of being morally judged and "your decision apparatus." "
That distinction can only be made assuming the existence of something outside of empirical observation, which is just a modern variant of the homunculus argument: "there remains a "driver" at the helm of the brain, an identity of the person that is beyond their brain." It's an article of faith.

- Then the pragmatism argument: "If one rejects the whole notion of free will due to the lack of empirical evidence substantiating its existence, they would have no choice but to reject the whole notion of morality on the same ground. "
This argument is false. Pragmatism means a 'guidance for action' or 'the creations of doctrines by practicality' and it thus makes perfect sense to plead for ethical pragmatism in a deterministic universe.

---> Your entire argument fails exactly by misunderstand what pragmatism is about. Sapolsky is right to make the distinction; in other words: empirical truth can't be derived from pragmatic axioms, nor do pragmatic axioms need to be based on empirical truth.


Kailuo Wang Kobe wrote: "Kailuo Wang wrote: "Kobe wrote: "So, in other words you're arguing Free Will exists because
- Everything is subjective
- There's a humonculus in the head or some kind of soul
- it's morally pragmat..."


To be clear, I didn't mean that his interpretation is eccentric or ad-hoc; I actually characterized it as intuitive. I just wanted to mention that it is not useful within some philosophical views. I don't think this interpretation is interesting for naturalists (since they reject the supernatural), who are the main audience of this book.

I was not making an argument for the distinction. I tried to focus on pointing out the self-contradictions in the book while avoiding including my own views on this topic. Personally, I agree that it's an article of faith, and I don't hold that faith. But the main disagreement between me and Sapolsky is that I believe morality doesn't rely on this article of faith, while he believes the opposite. This brings us to the 3rd pragmatism argument. It's quite simple: in pragmatism, all concepts should have practical purposes. As pragmatists, when we discuss free will and morality, we need to define both concepts based on their practical purposes. The free will as defined by Sapolsky is not a natural pragmatist definition – it's in the same realm as unicorns – they don't exist and they don't have any effect on our day-to-day life. Discussing morality based on such a definition of free will is like discussing how unicorns affect morality.


message 35: by Kobe (last edited Mar 12, 2024 08:57AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kobe De Peuter Kailuo Wang wrote: "Kobe wrote: "Kailuo Wang wrote: "Kobe wrote: "So, in other words you're arguing Free Will exists because
- Everything is subjective
- There's a humonculus in the head or some kind of soul
- it's mo..."


Agreed, more or less, except on one point.

Free will as defined by Sapolsky is in fact the most common interpretation of free will, as in: could one have acted differently? It's the dominant interpretation used in our courts. And obviously, in a deterministic universe, one couldn't have.

Thus, concludes Sapolsky, in the pragmatism of our ethics, concepts as 'guilt' and 'punishment' should be dropped, adjusting the entirety of ethics to a more humane and science-based approach, rather than building it on article of faith or/and intuitive and/or instinctive responses.

(That's why I mentioned the 'cloud of semantics'. (Dennett's) compatibilism is a reinterpretation of Free Will to 'a possibility of choice within determinism'. This is however not the interpretation of free will inherited from (neo)Platonism/Christianity, as used in our societies, and thus not pragmatic as it is in fact a red herring fallacy.)

So not unicorns, but rather red herrings are confounding the logic here.
In fact, discussing morality considering the most practiced definition of free will and within, by Ockhams's razor, the most probable scientific frame, is the most pragmatic approach.


Kailuo Wang "In fact, discussing morality considering the most practiced definition of free will and within, by Ockhams's razor, the most probable scientific frame, is the most pragmatic approach."
I disagree. Pragmatism doesn't mean accepting a definition just because it's the most popular one. If a definition is not practically helpful, a pragmatist should point it out and convince her interlocutors to abandon it as well. As a naturalist pragmatist, I would simply advocate that we shouldn't have involve deterministic physical laws in our moral reasoning at all. The Christian introduction of the concept of free will as some sort of basis for moral realism is a mistake at the first place. We didn't need it for our moral reasoning before and we don't need it now. Rejecting moral reasoning based on the dismissal of that free will is just a mistake on top of a mistake.

A quick word on "could have", it seems that in a deterministc universe the whole concept of counter factual become an invalid one. But this is not the case, without such a concept, we probably wouldn't even have science. When we say Tom could have done differently, there is a meaning that does not change regardless if the universe is deterministic or not. It's hard to have a 100% precise scientific definition on that, but let me try, if something is possible in an alternative universe with exact same deterministic physical laws but slightly different initial conditions, we can say that something could have been.


message 37: by Kobe (last edited Mar 12, 2024 11:16AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kobe De Peuter Kailuo Wang wrote: ""In fact, discussing morality considering the most practiced definition of free will and within, by Ockhams's razor, the most probable scientific frame, is the most pragmatic approach."
I disagree..."


"Pragmatism doesn't mean accepting a definition just because it's the most popular one."

- Oh I don't mean thát. I'm just saying it is more pragmatic to discuss ethics using the interpretations and considering the conditions approaching reality, rather than hypothetical ones.
Our moral reasoning is an anthropocentric interpretation of theocentric Free Will... so if there was a mistake, it grew. One could call our Free Will a central dogma in an anthropocentric religion (see John N Gray, f.i.) That's what meant with '(neo)Platonic/Christian inheritance'.

If we want to be pragmatic, we should discuss concepts as they are used/interpreted and in their closest relation to reality, not as what we would like them to mean in relation to articles of faith. Which is what you do.

- "it seems that in a deterministic universe the whole concept of counter factual become an invalid one."
Of course. Deterministic does not mean 'all known' though. And empirical science is only possible because of the deterministic laws of nature.

When we say 'Tom could have', we're not referring to facts or (approaches of) scientific truths, but individual narratives/subjective interpretation... despite its meaning or validity.


Bowen Dwelle Fantastic review! I enjoyed the book but am also looking for counter-arguments.

Two short questions for now: what is the original meaning of “free will” that you referred to, as distinct from volition?

Do you have any recommendations for books that present counter arguments to Selsky’s point of view? I’m totally down with the neuroscience, but I am open to considering that a sense of morality, or perhaps responsibility without blame, could coexist with a seemingly deterministic stack of “turtles.”

Thank you!


Kailuo Wang Thanks Bowen. I think the original meaning of free will is that no one can force a person to think one way or another, that the person who is doing the thinking bear some responsibilities for the result of that thinking.

Personally I don't have any books to recommend for counter arguments. A majority of philosophers are naturalists, which I identify myself with. They take it for granted that the whole universe, including human minds, is governed by a fixed set of physical laws. How to describe or define moral responsibility in this naturalistic world? There are multiple candidate answers. None of them concerns the deterministic nature of the physical laws. The statement that "one does NOT have morally responsibility because he is governed by the physical laws" is logically equivalent to "One has moral responsibility ONLY when he is NOT governed by physical laws". This is a precondition for moral responsibility that contradicts the naturalist belief that everything is governed by physical laws. Hence there isn't much need to discuss it.


message 40: by Scott (new)

Scott Ripley Your review says a lot about you.


message 41: by Andrew (new)

Andrew The whole notion of "could have done otherwise" is fraught. We can only do one thing at any time and that is the thing we did. We can call that thing a "choice" if we like, and we often do, but lots of "choices" are made with no appearance of any ideas in one's consciousness. Does that mean that we did not choose? This is a definitional problem.

We certainly consider the various potential outcomes of some actions. Is conscious consideration what choice is? If so, we clearly choose. And it's not clear that this conscious consideration of option doesn't influence what happens. But ultimately "free will" doesn't mean much -- not because we are automatons -- but because the universe we inhabit doesn't seem to allow us any insight into any choice *not* made, and at every moment there are an infinite number of those, both large and infinitesimally small. One doesn't have to consider the weather 100 years from now to realize that the determination of the future is meaningless in light of the possibilities that exist at each moment.


Korpivaara Toni „Your review says a lot about you.“ — Scott

Well said. As one unnamed science author wrote, paraphrasing: „How did you become the person you are today?“ Certainly a question that could be answered philosophically too?


message 43: by mylesgoins (new) - added it

mylesgoins I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughtful review.


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