Fantasy Book Club discussion

I often wonder about the origins of modern day fantasy. If you do to, you're in the right thread.

Many people today are said to emulate Toilken, but he was hardly the first author of fantasy. Where do the stories originate from? Can you contribute some information concerning the old Scandinavian sagas, epic poems, or other literature, from which modern fantasy stems?

Are you aware of interesting old folklore or tales which brought about today's ideas of werewolves, vampires, chimera, elves, fairies, trolls, golems, etc.?

For instance, some believe that the fairy folk may have been an actual group of early settlers who were pushed off the mainlands, annihilated, and forgotten into myth status. An example of a similar occurrence would be the Picts, a little known warrior peoples who occupied northern Britain during the Dark Ages, and whose subsequent demise rather quickly turned their status into that of a mythical faerie race.

The history and idea of the Picts has been picked up by several modern day fantasy writers, among them:
Juliet Marillier in her The Bridei Chronicles,The Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett as the Nac Mac Feegle, and Anne Rice as the Taltos, in The Lives of the Mayfair Witches.

What fantasy origins would you like to know more about?

I don't know if this will work, but this is my attempt to copy and paste in some comments from a different thread which prompted me to create this one. The link for the thread is here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

It contains some really great links to literature concerning the origins of fantasy, and was submitted by Janny Wurts.


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3939718 Janny wrote: "who also borrowed heavily from the Eddas and the old Ring of the Niebelung tales...."

by Kara : Janny, you seem to know some of the history concerning the origins of modern day fantasy literature... something I'd like to know more about. Are there any old norsk or other stories/poems you would actually recommend to today's fantasy reader?

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1937942 Kara wrote: "Janny wrote: "who also borrowed heavily from the Eddas and the old Ring of the Niebelung tales...."

Janny, you seem to know some of the history concerning the origins of modern day fantasy literat..."

by Janny: Oh, tons. In fictionalized accounts, taken from older source material:

The Welsh myths, the Mabinogion: Evangeline Walton did a splendid retelling (as have some others) Her tetrology finishes with Island of the Mighty: The Fourth Branch of the Mabinogion.

All of the older versions of the King Arthur legends.

All of the archtypal myths of the old matriarchal cultures - as one choice, read The King Must Die by Mary Renault and the sequel, The Bull from the Sea

The Seigfried legends. The Gilgamesh legend. The Cuchulan legend. Nuada of the Silver Hand. Beowulf. The Russian legend of the Firebird: A Sorcerer's Treason and sequels by Sarah Zettel delves into that one. Joy Chant's very excellent Red Moon and Black Mountain borrows heavily on some older material.

Look at the ancient folk tales and fairy tales, and books of cultural myth. Morgan Llywellen also did many of the old Irish heroes.

The Enchanted Cup by Dorothy James Roberts retold the Grail story from another perspective.

Also, Mary Stewart's Merlin Trilogy.

To reel off a few, top of my head...

The list is huge, and the older source material these books drew from - massive - you'd have to delve into the scholarly works to truly appreciate the deep taproots of the mythscape that created much of our modern fantasy.

Child's Ballads is another source....extremely rich.
Some authors who've borrowed there: Ellen Kushner's Thomas the Rhymer, and a number of fantasies that cross into faerie realm...

Before there was a fantasy 'genre' - this wealth of material existed. A good librarian can tap you right straight in.

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by Kara : WOW. THANK YOU JANNY! This is an awesome summary...

We are clearly off topic though, and I think others would be interested in this as well... so I am going to start a new thread and see if we can get this moved over to it.

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1937942 Kara wrote: "WOW. THANK YOU JANNY! This is an awesome summary...

We are clearly off topic though, and I think others would be interested in this as well... so I am going to start a new thread and see if we..."

by Janny : Not exactly off topic, as you asked to see into some source material - Kay has admitted to drawing lots of inspiration from old poetry in one of the discussions in this group. He's used many threads in the Fionavar blend...sad, that now, the knock offs have eclipsed this incredible work, which has a lot of scholarship to it.

I agree though - a topic on the books that shows where MANY of the mythscapes descended from could be cool. There are a lot more titles; I just frothed off a quick list.

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by Hélène : The many-coloured land and its sequels by Julian May make an interesting use of celtic myths in a SF background. Unfortunately, myths are seldom apparent in SF.

Ah, I saw you were going to make a topic for discussing this. Great. Hope others jump in.

I guess this is as good a place as any. Have at it, Kara :). I wonder if putting a row of asterisks between posts by others would help delineate them.

Thanks Sandra! Hopefully that helped a little...

In this vein, Kara, I think you'd have to include the Classical works from Homer and Hesiod to Ovid.

But i would like to suggest the roots of modern fantasy are also in the pre-Tolkien, pre-CS Lewis works. Authors such as Lord Dunsany and his friends WB Yeats and Lady Gregory, even Poe, Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith. The 18-19th century Pan movement of authors are predecessors contribute to modern fantasy.

Carl Gustav Jung is a huge source of archetypal material. Man and His Symbols is a good one. Most fantasy comes from our history of archetypal material and is an endless source of fascinating psychological stuff, at least for me.

I studied the Norse sagas and eddas pretty extensively in college. There's tons of that material available in English:

The Prose Edda

The Poetic Edda

Njal's Saga

Egil's Saga

The Kalevala

Heimskringla

I live in Norway where some of the Norse sagas was written. I have studied it very much in school. I would recommend the works of Snorre Sturlasson, he was the one who wrote The Prose Edda. Tolkien was influenced by Norse mythology when he wrote his works, especially in The Silmarillion

Awesome start to collecting old fantasy literature. Thanks everyone, and keep it coming.

Here's a question I have, without google'ing for a answer.

When did the first Golem story appear? I have heard something about them being from Jewish culture and history... but? Are their origins biblical then??

There must be rules, because across fantasy it always seems that to defeat a Golem you must remove something from it's body which was used to animate it?

Kernos wrote: "In this vein, Kara, I think you'd have to include the Classical works from Homer and Hesiod to Ovid.

But i would like to suggest the roots of modern fantasy are also in the pre-Tolkien, pre-CS Le..."

Definitely, Homer! And definitely, yes, the roots of modern fantasy go way back, before Tolkein.

I listed differently because some of those 'classics' are tougher reads (for some)...not everybody rocks with Eddison, Mervyn Peake, or Lord Dunsany, etc...and back before them...they are quite a different flavor than what's considered 'commercial' today; the wit and the pacing and the language is, perhaps, now, becoming an acquired taste.

Hmmmm.... maybe we need a "origins of fantasy/OLD FANTASY" upcoming read sometime.

The writing style is bound to be very different, and possibly a difficult read, but breaking out of the box is not a bad thing. =)

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Carl Gustav Jung is a huge source of archetypal material. Man and His Symbols is a good one. ..."

BTW Sandra, interesting pick. I gave it a look over and my curiosity is piqued.

The golem is an ancient concept, but the "creature" version is more modern. Technically, Adam was a golem created from the earth by God. In ancient times, there are oblique references to men created by magicians from dust.

But the modern golem creature idea comes from the story of a rabbi in Prague who created a golem to protect the Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#Th...

Of course William Morris was one of the earliest. Not a super-exciting writing style by modern standards but I did enjoy The Water Of The Wondrous Isles once I got into it. Have some of his others I have not yet read. I read one Lord Dunsany short story in The Phoenix Tree: An Anthology of Myth Fantasy (unbelievably good anthology there), and have been anxious to read more by him. I have also been following up Lovecraft, reading his actual writings and also those of the writers who influenced him and were influenced by him, particularly William Hope Hodgson. There is of course Conan Doyle. I finally got around to reading The Lost World in 2010. Andrew Lang's "color" Fairy Books are a great place to look for antecedents to modern fantasy tropes, for sure. I'm rambling and will stop. Very interested in this topic, can ya tell?

Ruby wrote: "Of course William Morris was one of the earliest. Not a super-exciting writing style by modern standards but I did enjoy The Water Of The Wondrous Isles once I got into it. Have some ..."
Many of these authors were published in the Ballantine Fantasy series; collector's editions, all, at this point.

Some might also say that modern fantasy started way back with Ivanhoe

Joseph wrote: "Some might also say that modern fantasy started way back with Ivanhoe"

And in a similar vein, has anyone mentioned the many Arthurian Romances (or the many variations of the Arthurian legend)?

Kernos wrote: "

And in a similar vein, has anyone mentioned the many Arthurian Romances (or the many variations of the Arthurian legend)? ..."

Nope. Will you please? =)

George McDonald was an early fantasy author who influenced Tolkien and Lewis. I believe one or both men loved McDonald's "Curdy" books, Princess and the Goblin, etc. I THINK that's right. It's been awhile since I've read Tolkien's letters and biographies....

Kara wrote: "I often wonder about the origins of modern day fantasy. If you do to, you're in the right thread.

Many people today are said to emulate Toilken, but he was hardly the first author of fantasy. Wher..."

An excellent point about the Picts. Ireland/England's "Faerie Folk" have also been identified by some as the original Celts, a tall, thin bunch with very white skin, dark hair, dark eyes, long hands and feet, who migrated to the British Isles from Austria, way, way back (the "Celtic" look as it's generally perceived today -- red/blonde hair, blue/green eyes, freckles, etc. -- is, of course, the result of the Angles/Saxons/Jutes invasions and the countless Viking raids and invasions during the dark ages.

The origins of fantasy probably go back to the prehistoric, cave man times, or so the cave paintings suggest -- but these are often thought to be "religious' in nature. like Gilgamesh and the Icelandic Sagas. For origins of "modern" literary fantasy fiction, look to Homer (Odyssey) and then Beowulf, which definitely qualifies.

I would suggest the origins of fantasy are as old as imagination itself. Story telling is an integral part of what makes us human.

Victoria wrote: "George McDonald was an early fantasy author who influenced Tolkien and Lewis. I believe one or both men loved McDonald's "Curdy" books, Princess and the Goblin, etc. I THINK that's right. It's been..."

McDonald, while certainly not one of the originators of fantasy, might arguably be termed one of the fathers of modern fantasy, due to his influence on Lewis and Tolkien. His two adult fantasies, Lilith and Phantastes, are pretty mind-blowing. Not exactly easy to read, but well worth the effort.

Thanks, Christopher! I've read one of McDonald's, but I don't recall the title right now. Those don't sound familiar, so I'll have to look him up again. ;D

If you don't like 'em, let me know and I shall do penance for misleading you!

LOL I liked the one I read enough to name a poor stray dog I picked up after the main character. Somewhere out there is a dog whose true soul name is Anados, but his family has remained ignorant and continue to call him Turbo. ;D I don't think McDonald will let me down.

A favorite sub-genre of mine is Mythic Fantasy which I define as novelizations of myths and legends of various cultures. I am speaking of the works of such authors as Mary Renault, Juliet Marillier, Morgan Llywelyn, Evangeline Walton, Stephen Grundy, David Gemmell, Stephen Lawhead, Homer, Virgil...

A modern retelling brings to life and helps me remember these stories, especially those I didn't grow up with. For example, I think I've read every translation of The Cattle Raid of Cooley aka, Táin Bó Cúailnge or The Tain, but it wasn't until I read Morgan Llywelyn's Red Branch that the story really became part of me, like my Irish friends who grew up with it.

If you see modern fantasy as mainly for entertainement and maybe sometimes education, then (written) fantasy probably started with the ancient Greeks. Before the ancient greeks (as far as i know) humans used fantasy mainly to explain the world. The ancient Greeks invented philosophy as an alternative way to understand nature.

So many Ancient mythological texts like the Bible are fantasy, but they are not i think part of the origin of modern fantasy. Because although these books are fantasy, to the people who wrote them they were explanatory.

Pre-literate humans also used stories to archive their history.

That's a bit of a leap there, Betelgeuze, to lump the Bible in with fantasy. At the least, you might look at that somewhat more selectively, particularly in light of the digs in the Middle East that have turned up inscriptions, etc., concerning some of the Old Testament kings. Also, it's pretty fascinating to do comparisons of texts discovered in what relation to the date of original writing. Looking at Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, or the Iliad, vs the Testaments is rather thought-provoking.

Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Christopher wrote: "That's a bit of a leap there, Betelgeuze, to lump the Bible in with fantasy. At the least, you might look at that somewhat more selectively, particularly in light of the digs in the Middle East tha..."

I don't understand what you mean. Most ancient cultures used fantasy as if it was reality. So for instance a natural disaster or a victory over an enemy was be the will of the gods, instead of solely the result of nature or human actions. I used the Bible as an example because it is the one i'm most familiar with.

My point was that when humans started to separate fantastical thinking from reality was when the origins of modern fantasy began. And as far a i know the Ancient Greeks were among the first to do this.

I agree with Kernos, that it also served to archive history. Maybe weaving history into an engaging story made it easier to remember.

I was a bit obtuse there. I was trying to say that, empirically, a great deal of the Bible is rather easy to corroborate with extra-biblical sources (everything from Josephus, Roman records, stuff like the Imhotep finds in Egypt, ruins and digs). We'll probably agree to disagree at this point, but that sort of corroboration should provide a certain amount of separation from fantasy.

Few take the entire Bible, especially many of the events in the Old Testament, literally. It certainly contains plenty of fantastic elements, sex & gore. Most history is skewed by those who tell it, too. I think Betelgeuze's comparison is a good one.

Christopher wrote: "I was a bit obtuse there. I was trying to say that, empirically, a great deal of the Bible is rather easy to corroborate with extra-biblical sources (everything from Josephus, Roman records, stuff ..."

Many of the storys in the bible were from other cultures before christianity. For example the story of Noah's ark derives from the Babylonian myth Epic of Gilgamesh from 2000 BCE.

Oh mercy, I realize this is a potentially hot subject, and pardon to those who take the Bible literally, but I do believe there is much that is fantasy or metaphor there - the parting of the Red Sea? The plague of locusts?

Every great leader had a virgin birth - Buddha, for instance.

The angels singing in the heavens?

Those are all powerful and (I believe) symbolic stories, spun from events that may have happened in some way, but elaborated and built up on in ways that would emphasize their importance and their numinosity -- and isn't that (in a smaller way of course) what fantasy does for us?

Hmm. Question. Do you all believe that nothing supernatural can ever occur?

Christopher wrote: "Hmm. Question. Do you all believe that nothing supernatural can ever occur?"

No. I know it can. Have experienced it.

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "...but I do believe there is much that is fantasy or metaphor there - the parting of the Red Sea?..."

The parting of the Red Sea COULD have actually happened (who am I to disprove it?), and even science has tried to explain the phenomena (not a bad link for the latest scientific explanation, http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/22/hol...).

I would guess that a lot of fantasy stems from REAL events that actually took place, but which we no longer have the background knowledge to understand, and THEREFORE call them fantastical.


Over time, oral history is bound to embellish events and/or change how they are told, and hence perceived.

Given a loss of written history, or lost knowledge in general, I can see how a society 3000 years from now might consider "wireless internet" fantastical, magical, or mythical.

Christopher wrote: "Hmm. Question. Do you all believe that nothing supernatural can ever occur?"

That depends on how one defines supernatural. I'd say that if something occurs, there is a natural explanation for it, even if we don't know it. IOW, everything is part of Nature.

Since no one else has quoted him, I will.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke

Who knows? Ezekiel saw a wheel of fire, Moses a whirlwind of fire. Cool stuff.

Jim wrote: "...Who knows? Ezekiel saw a wheel of fire, Moses a whirlwind of fire. Cool stuff..."

If I'd spent all that time on a mountain carving stone tablets, I'd make big fires too. Brrrr. Politicians are all alike!

Kernos wrote: "Jim wrote: "...Who knows? Ezekiel saw a wheel of fire, Moses a whirlwind of fire. Cool stuff..."

If I'd spent all that time on a mountain carving stone tablets, I'd make big fires too. Brrrr. Poli..."

ROFL! Boy, that's the truth.

All of the images we are talking about are archetypal. Jung has an explanation for those...

Kara wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "...but I do believe there is much that is fantasy or metaphor there - the parting of the Red Sea?..."

The parting of the Red Sea COULD have actually happened (who am I to d..."

I'm aware of some of the scientific explanations for these phenomena. And I'm sure these are entirely possible. I'm just skeptical that it happened like in The Ten Commandments, the movie.

Kara wrote: "An example of a similar occurrence would be the Picts, a little known warrior peoples who occupied northern Britain during the Dark Ages, and whose subsequent demise rather quickly turned their status into that of a mythical faerie race. "

Ummm... the Picts were not all killed off, if that is what you mean by "demise". They were united with the Scots under the rule of Kenneth MacAlpin in 843 CE. The Picts, at least that is what the Romans called them because of their wearing of woad and because of their many tattoos, intermingled with the Scots and shared their culture, language, and blood. The Picts were a matriarchal Celtic society that came from Assyria; they were also known as formidable horse warriors.

Now, you must have been thinking of the Tuatha De Dannan, who are the gods and goddesses of Eire, as being a source of mythology, which would be correct. Their magical realm, if you will, is called the Other World, aka Tir Na Nog. Many fae and other mythical beings are said to reside there. In fact, some angel and demon myths were borrowed from Celtic mythologies. Don't forget Fir Bolg or the Sidhe.

My co-author and I write extensively about Irish and Scottish mythology and history, so we have done a little research.

Cheers!

Christopher

Christopher wrote: "Now, you must have been thinking of the Tuatha De Dannan, who are the gods and goddesses of Eire..."

Thanks for the insight Christopher. I was reading up on the Tuatha Dé Danann, and I came across this interesting tid-bit... The Tuatha Dé Danann were led underground into the "Sidhe" mounds, becoming in Irish mythology, the aos sí (Irish pronunciation: [iːs ˈʃiː], older form aes sídhe [eːs ˈʃiːə]), a supernatural race comparable to the fairies or elves. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD).

I know this stuff pops up a lot, but just thought it was interesting that we have old irish "aes sídhe," and Aes Sedai, from Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time.

Kara wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Now, you must have been thinking of the Tuatha De Dannan, who are the gods and goddesses of Eire..."

Thanks for the insight Christopher. I was reading up on the Tuatha Dé Dana..."

You are most welcome, Kara. I would advise for serious research on the subject of Celtic mythology that you avoid resources such as Wikipedia. I shall reference for you a few selected works we used for researching our first two novels:



Please consider what many of us take to being mythology, upon which some fantasy is based, were (and in some cases are still today) peoples' beliefs.

All mythology, and folklore for that matter, is based somewhere and somehow on fact. There was some person, act, animal, event, conflict, or what have you upon which that mythology is based. Whatever it was happened before writing (or from an era of writing lost to us), so the recounting of whatever it was was delivered verbally, sometimes in song. When it shows up in writing, the original event could have happened hundreds or thousands of years prior. Some things may have also been lost or added in translation. The account could have morphed or been exaggerated over the ages, or perhaps whatever it was was unexplainable, and therefore was described in deific proportions - how does early man explain the sun rise? Surely a god does that... The original observer could have also been in an altered state.

I also would not put it past those who wrote down those tales to imbue the tales with their modern moralistic view, take the Celtic Christian monks who wrote down the Ulster Cycle - how much did they alter the story to put pagan beliefs in a dimmer light?

Mythology, and folklore for that matter, are wonderful sources for fantasy, and I feel these sources have barely been tapped. However, if you are going to write fantasy based on mythology and folklore, do your research, stay true to the mythology and folklore, and don't get your source material from Wikipedia - it is often wrong.

Cheers!

Christopher

Thanks again Chris! That's an awesome listing of references.

Hey Everyone,

Just so there's no confusion out there, I do not write. If I HAVE to, it's in letter's to friends or dry dry concise scientific crap.

Hence, this thread is only to have an interesting discussion, possibly learn a little... I wont be using any of your helpful tidbits in my next greatest fantasy novella.

=)

But if I were, I WOULD stay away from Wikipedia.

Some interesting book suggestions, Christopher. I think it important to understand that there has been an amazing renaissance in Celtic Studies since 1970/80 or so, that continues today. So it is important to read up to date literature written for lay audiences. A decade can make a big difference.

Piggott's book for a long time was the only resource for non-academics about "The Druids", but now he is very out of date. All of Miranda Green's—aka Miranda Aldhouse-Green after she got married—books for the lay are quite good from an archeological POV. I would be careful of Peter Barresford Ellis. He mixes well-accepted facts with speculation with personal opinion and does not differentiate amongst them. He is very readable, but dangerous for the tyro. I would suggest the many excellent books by Barry Cunliffe (an archeologist) for lay audiences. They are excellent and up to date.

A superior resource is the encyclopedic Dictionary of Celtic Mythology by James Mackillop a linguist. I have 3 copies for reference—bedroom, study and at work. He cross references the many spellings for common names and places. This book is a great place to start.

There are a number of translations of the Táin Bó Cúailnge, The Cattle raid of Cooly commonly just called The Tain (see the wikipedia page, ffi). The Kinsella version you referenced is a bit out of date, but readable, I think my favorite is the newest by Ciaran Carson plus the excellent translation of The Mabinogion a collection of Old Welsh mythology tales translated by Jeffrey Gantz.

Take a look at my Celtic Studies bookshelf for many more books on the Celts.

I disagree about Wikipedia today. What you said is old hat, IMIO. Wikipedia has become an excellent resource, at least for things I know about. Its self-correcting nature and internal and peer review have made it a primary resource. I find it a good starting place, much better than Google for someone new to a topic.

Kernos wrote: "Some interesting book suggestions, Christopher. I think it important to understand that there has been an amazing renaissance in Celtic Studies since 1970/80 or so, that continues today. So it is i..."

Dear Kernos,

Wonderful suggestions, though I believe we have many of those newer books in our library. The books I was quoting were from an annotated bibliography my co-author did for her Library Science masters degree citing books and other sources she had used to research our first two novels, which we co-wrote between ten and eight years ago; hence why some resources were dated (though she may have slipped in newer stuff - I did not check the dates).

When she sent me the bibliography, she was indicating that this book was out of date and much of that author's conclusions were disproved (Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions, I think). I know we have grown our library recently, incorporating newer works of Celtic non-fiction (including the mysticism aspects, which we also use in our fantasy series), though we have moved on in periods with our novels, stopping at 801 CE Charlemagne for three novels, and now onto 850 CE for Nordic, Japanese, and Chinese research for two or three novels.

Thank you for the commentary on these selected works and their authors - I shall recommend my co-author read your post; perhaps she has arrived at similar conclusions.

I think Heather, my co-author, was turned off by Wikipedia through her Library Science classes, though, from what I have seen, Wikipedia has incorporated peer reviews and other improvements - I admit to using it for the occasional query but not for serious research. I would agree with you, however, that it is a decent starting place, and yes, better than Google.

Cheers!

Christopher

I would never ever use wikipedia as a source. It's a good starting point to find other sources and little else... don't care how accurate or precise the info might be. No matter how 'peer reviewed' it is. It's too easy to throw in data that is just wrong. And putting wrong information in the hands of people who know little about a topic can lead to serious mistakes.

However, I'm a reference librarian by trade who specialized in historical research in my masters work. So, I'm very opinionated on wikipedia and google and practically blow a gasket when I hear coworkers who suggest it to students.

Best sources would be print and electronic sources that contain accurate, precise, and authoritative works by expects in the field.

Yes, some of the books included in that list were included as a 'wow, this is old and it's been mostly disproven, but there you go', authority and accuracy changes with the times.

Best online sources for mythology... pantheon.org and the internet sacred text archive.

Yeah, I know ...opinionated ;)

Heather wrote: "I would never ever use wikipedia as a source. It's a good starting point to find other sources and little else... don't care how accurate or precise the info might be. No matter how 'peer reviewed' it is. It's too easy to throw in data that is just wrong..."

Which is true for any source, including published books by experts. The advantages of Wikipedia and other electronic sources are that they can be corrected in real time. With a book the mistake is there forever or until a new edition comes out (and you know about it). I would suggest to young people and other tyros, "question everything."

Heather wrote: "...Best online sources for mythology... pantheon.org and the internet sacred text archive..."

The problem with the Sacred Text archive is that the sources are all public domain/open-source translations or works and many outdated and largly written in 19th century prose or verse which can be difficult for modern readers.

I would take a Wikipedia article over an Encyclopedia Mythica article any day. The latter is not even referenced. I just checked the Cernunnos article there and it is largely neo-pagan conflation. Compare the 2 Dionysus articles, eg.

The other site I like is the Perseus Digital Library.

I agree with pretty much everything Kernos said - especially the bit about pantheon.org which I do not find to be a historically reliable source at all, and does have a definite Neopagan bias.

For instance, in the article for Brigid it states "Brigid, which means "one who exaults herself," is Goddess of the Sacred Flame of Kildare (derived from "Cill Dara," which means "church of the oak") and often is considered to be the White Maiden aspect of the Triple Goddess." - which does reference the fact that the "White Goddess" Robert Graves and is not historically sound.

While the Celts did have tripartate gods, and while Brighid is often held to have been one of them, she was depicted as three sisters, of the same age, and not as the "virgin" aspect of the Maiden-Mother-Crone, which did not exist in Celtic lore.

(Granted, I suppose the entry isn't really inaccurate, as many people do consider her as such, though I would still say it's misleading as it doesn't explain how this belief isn't historically Celtic.

Of course, it then goes on to tell of how Groundhog's day originated with the story of Brigid's snakes, even though there have never been any snakes in Ireland (though maybe Scottland and England had some, I'm not sure), it calls the Cailleach the Gailleach, so on.

It's also unsourced. One thing I like about Wikipedia is it gives sources for statements, and when statements are unsources or questioned, it tells you so right on the page.)


Also, re: the accuracy of Wikipedia: Wikipedia is about as good a source of accurate information as Britannica, the venerable standard-bearer of facts about the world around us, according to a study published this week in the journal Nature.

(I do find reading the discussion pages to sometimes be an interesting place to look to see the arguments over particular issues within subjects, as well.)