Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion

Ie is there just too many of them. I was listing to a comedy on Radio4 and the premise was that in the near future the only surviving works from our era are books about Tudor detectives. I suppose you could add all that paranormal romance garbage in there but they do seem to be de rigueur.

Suppose I'm really asking how do you discern the decent books from the filler, and I suppose the answer is places like this were you can separate the wheat from the chaff.

okay, I've answered my own question

Lol. Well there you have it! You did answer your own question. :-) I am biased however.

But seriously, I do think you are spot on with that. Goodreads and its reviews and its groups are an excellent resource for this kind of thing. Some chaff will get through no doubt, but at least here on GR, and in this group, a reader can seek and find information about the real deal.
After all, isn't education key to all evolutions of the mind? No matter how trivial?
As a reader if a person wants to evolve and read good books by talented authors, then the tools are out there via these kind of reader networks now.

Terri knows the reservations I have about reading pretty much any historical fiction author for the first time: there is an awful lot of rubbish out there these days. I think she tends to feel the same way, too.

So yes, you're right. There's a lot of poorly written, formulaic books which sell well and appeal to particular audiences (including the infamous 'bodice ripper'). Finding the right group of friends (or GoodReads group) to get recomendations suited to your taste is probably the best way to find the books you actually want to read.

Yes, it is true. I too feel there is a lot of crap out there and I am very put off by poor writing.
I am a little more open to authors I am trying for the first time now that I am a member of a great library. Before that, I threw down some hard earned cash on hf books that were utter crap and it is a hard lesson to learn.
If one values their hard earned cash, they need to use whatever resources avail themselves, like GR reviews, and cull. Cull hard.

I did some more thinking about hf and pulp fiction and I realised that I recently got that feeling from all the myriad fiction set in Roman times.
There seems to be hundreds of these on the market now. All pushed out in the last couple of years.
It makes it hard for me to find the diamonds in the rough and as a result, I don't read many. I believe I have culled through them and selected out the ones I want to try. They seem o be like Westerns though. A lot of rubbish pumped out for quick low quality reads for people who aren't fussy on writing quality, with a few sparkling gems hidden in amoungst them.

My father recently got a Kindle and was thrilled to find so many historical novels on ancient Rome. It's his favorite period. I don't know how many books he purchased, but he was a kid in a candy store. A few weeks later he complained that only a handful of them were any good. He didn't mind the money so much as the time lost culling through the books. Now he's relying on me to check this group for him and tell him what comes recommended!

Funny. :-) I think that makes it official doesn't it. Yes, some sub genres of historical fiction are becoming pulp fiction.

I'm glad it's not just me. I feel a despair in front of the shop shelves and began to AVOID... it's only since I've been in this HF group and the other that I've ventured to try new histfic again. Even when I get them at the 2nd-hand markets it's trash, trash, trash and clutter up your shelves with things I'm bored with first page.

Then I've found a few wonders this year. Here, yep.

I am really pleased to see that the group is becoming a valued resource for readers. It was the plan. To cut the swill out and be left with some potential quality.
Some swill shall get through because unfortunately one man's swill is another man's treasure. :-)

Terri wrote: "sometimes one man's swill is another man's treasure. :-) "

Amen to that, too.
Or, Every book has a friend out there. No book goes unloved.

Haha. Yes! That too.

I just started a novel set in ancient Rome and had to stop after 4% because the writing was so bad. Then I looked for reviews. I should have done that first. I really like the Look Inside function at amazon. If the first few pages are well-written, chances are that it will continue

Oh crumbs..now I am hanging to know which one it was, Laura. That's going to drive me crazy. :-)

(You can tell me in private message if you want. I won't repeat it. Lol)

Gosh, I'd like to know also. Ancient Rome is my obsession.

Ah, but there's the tricky thing, one person's rubbish is another person's favourite book.
I find Simon Scarrow's writing down right awful, and yet most people don't seem to notice this. In fact, to my astonishment he is well liked!
So I guess it depends on what people need from an author. Laura may have been put off by an author you love. :-)

Terri wrote: "Ah, but there's the tricky thing, one person's rubbish is another person's favourite book.
I find Simon Scarrow's writing down right awful, and yet most people don't seem to notice this. In fact, t..."

I have to agree with Terri - to each his/her own, as for Scarrow isn't my favorite, I do like his Centurion series

I feel the same, mostly with historical romance. It seems like many authors just take a few features of historical setting, dump their story into it and call it historical because they say it's happening in this or that century. Never mind that the characters are acting awfully modern and the history details are hardly recognizable or perverted into un-recognition... Enough that the author stated it was historical romance...
:-/
Not that I read many of those. I'm horribly picky about what I buy ;-)

I went into our local Waterstone's yesterday and noticed that they now have a "historical fiction" section. If ever we needed confirmation that it's become a popular genre...

There is fiction which says it is historical. That is pulp. The is great historical fiction that remains worth reading.

Lee wrote: "I went into our local Waterstone's yesterday and noticed that they now have a "historical fiction" section. If ever we needed confirmation that it's become a popular genre..."

I'll have to watch out for that, I haven't seen it here yet. They are all still lumped in with the generic fiction.

Zoe wrote: "I feel the same, mostly with historical romance. It seems like many authors just take a few features of historical setting, dump their story into it and call it historical because they say it's hap..."

I don't read Hist' romance either, Zoe, but I used to read some Elizabeth Chadwick.
Until I properly discovered the Hist fic genre I thought Chadwick's books were Historical Fiction as they weren't obvious romance (no Fabio covers) and had a lot of history in them. But the books used to grate on me because they were too romance and sex oriented.
It took me discovering Bernard Cornwell before I realised that those kinds of Hist fic were still romance books. They had fancy covers and some heavier storylines, but essentially there wasn't much more going on other than lovers seeking love.
I feel this is the situation with many books written by women for women in the Hist Fic genre. It really is borderline hist romance. No different to a Julie Garwood novel, only with a better cover.
They have become pulp fiction with headless women covers, or, women in a period costume covers. More about the quick sell.
I got to a stage where I couldn't read another Elizabeth Chadwick book. i think I read about 5 all up and still own some unread.

NB* All due respect to Chadwick as a writer though. She is a very good writer. Better than many. It was the storylines that I found dull.

I cannot agree more, Terri!
(although I have to admit I didn't read any of the mentioned books. I might have formed this opinion based on very little, which is wrong)

And also I agree that no disrespect for those writers is intended. It may be a genre, or sub-genre, that just doesn't speak to some of us.

What about someone like Chelsea Quinn Yarbro? Now, before you throw your hands up and say NO NO NO she writes genre stuff like horror, I'd like to make a case for her St. Germain series. She's up to 25 books now and each one is set in a different time and place. And she's a meticulous researcher -- no modern attitudes in, say, 10th century Saxony. Her goal is to put the reader in that time. Yes, the main character is a vampire but he's the good guy and humans supply all the horror (and we all know how horrible humans can be to one another), and his "nature" is lightly and sporadically touched on. I like to say that he doesn't belong to the "slash and suck" school.

My feeling is if you want to really know what ancient Rome was like or Conquistador Peru or Mongol Invasion China, you could do a lot worse than read her books.

[ducking brickbats]

Laura wrote: "I just started a novel set in ancient Rome and had to stop after 4% because the writing was so bad. Then I looked for reviews. I should have done that first. I really like the Look Inside function ..."

I'm interested in knowing who too, i reckon I can guess.

Lindig wrote: "What about someone like Chelsea Quinn Yarbro? Now, before you throw your hands up and say NO NO NO she writes genre stuff like horror, I'd like to make a case for her St. Germain series. She's up t..."

I'm open to the idea, I'm off to investigate (or can you direct me to the Mongol one?). Wasn't she an SF writer?

The first book in the Saint-Germain series is Hotel Transylvania.


P.S. Lindig, could you please use the 'add book/author' feature. So much easier for everyone to look at the books your referencing. Thanks.

Lindig wrote: "What about someone like Chelsea Quinn Yarbro? Now, before you throw your hands up and say NO NO NO she writes genre stuff like horror, I'd like to make a case for her St. Germain series. She's up t..."

That sounds interesting!

I used to be a hardcore HF-only-and-nothing-else,
but then I came across two good historical fantasies, and since then I'm more flexible.

I think if the period is researched well and the characters don't behave modern,then such story could be good and valuable, even if fantasy or something paranormal :-)

For anyone wanting to discuss Historical fantasy there is this thread as we try and keep the fantasy separate to the historical fiction in A&M, even if it is set in our history. You may find some good conversations and recs in this thread if fantasy is what you are after.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

I tend to think YES. The computer has definitely enabled the production of questionable quality books. Fiction and Non Fiction. They are being pumped out by the hundreds direct to ebook version. It is out of control and makes it difficult to sort the good stuff form the bad.
It also gives bad publicity to good self published ebooks. When readers try them and end up trying the bad ones the reader completely write them off and those gold nuggets hiding amoung them get overlooked forever.
This is a shame.

I'm not a huge re-reader. I only do it a couple times a year and there is usually a very good reason (meaning I don't re-read just because I liked it once).. those reasons mostly are: I don't remember the book well enough and want to read it again so I can leave an honest review on GR. And my other reason, is when the latest book in a series comes out and it has been a long time since I read the last one.
When I new book comes out in a series I will sometimes re-read the whole series, or read the last one I had read in the series so i go into the new one refreshed.

ChrisL wrote:...
Has the computer replaced the pulp mill in enabling more production of "questionable quality" books? How much has the the computer magnified the awareness of pulp?..."

It must be the case :)

Yet, on the other hand, computer and direct publishing allowed more unusual historical settings to come out. The traditional publishing industry was, ummm, quite narrow minded about HF. Regency times and Romans were considered 'marketable', therefore we had plenty of such books and those periods had reached the wide audience, so everyone is aware of their merits and failings.
While countless other periods and places were completely neglected but by the people who were interested in them anyway.

Now, with direct publishing, many authors who could not sneak past the gate-keepers, not because of the quality of their novels but because of the variety of their themes, can break free and try to reach the wide audience of unsuspecting readers ('unsuspecting' because I claim that HF is a trap for the innocent people who had managed to avoid history lessons in school :D)

I agree that it's very difficult and frustrating, this necessity to filter through the huge pile of immature works, looking for a gem :)
(I'm extremely picky myself and read only recommended books or those of the authors I'd read before, which disqualifies me from being a bookworm ;)).
Still it may be worth of our time/effort, the fact that HF market is filling with so many new original unknown periods and cultures :)

Firstly let me say I love any novel with a historical premise.

That said, I think one has to be careful of decrying historical romance. There is a vast difference between hist. romance and what is euphemistically called 'bodice rippers'.
I can think of a number of writers from Anya Seton to Dorothy Dunnett (the doyen of hist.fict), and more contemporary writers such as Sarah Dunant, Sharon Penman and 'indies' such as Ann Swinfen and Anna Elliott (both also mainstream), Suzanne Tyrpak and Sarah Woodbury Haig who have written topnotch hist.fict where love is an underlying but not overdone theme.
Bodice rippers are another thing altogether and by their very covers, I am able to avoid them because they're not my 'thing', but as a writer of hist.fict and hist fantasy, please don't decry a novel because there is a subtle love-story running through the narrative.

Zoe wrote: "ChrisL wrote:...
Has the computer replaced the pulp mill in enabling more production of "questionable quality" books? How much has the the computer magnified the awareness of pulp?..."

It must be..."

Zoe, I couldn't agree more!!!!

(Try to use the add book/author feature when posting books or authors Prue. Not that it is the right group for linking romance writers, lol, but it may help those in this group who read romance...and I know there are some women in the group who like their romance as well as the more gender neutral stuff that we mostly talk about in here).

I'm the same mostly, Zoe. I read what gets good ratings and reviews, especialliy when they are by GR friends.
My best discoveries have come to me this way. When I venture out on my own, find books I had not heard of, I tend to be let down by the results.

This group has definitely helped my tbr.

Terri wrote: "(Try to use the add book/author feature when posting books or authors Prue. Not that it is the right group for linking romance writers, lol, but it may help those in this group who read romance...a..."

Sorry, Terri, but if I listed D.Dunnett's books, just for example, there would be 15 books!!!!

I'd also like to say that even Angus Donald in The Outlaw Chronicles, represents love with Marie-Anne and Robin, Alan and Nur and later with his beloved Goody. I'd venture to say that love is a necessary balance in a medieval hist.fict novel because of the raw nature of the times. All blood and battle and no play makes the protagonist a very dull boy indeed...

Prue wrote: "Terri wrote: "(Try to use the add book/author feature when posting books or authors Prue. Not that it is the right group for linking romance writers, lol, but it may help those in this group who re..."

Just the authors are fine. :-) eg when you mention Dunnett you only need to link her like this Dorothy Dunnett. If you mention a book of hers in the same post, as long as you have linked either the author or the book.

It just helps people find the books or authors we are talking about.

Here's the link for Angus Donald

I disagree, Prue. I don't think love stories and romance need be in the books I read.
I read plenty of books that have none and I prefer it. I don't think that just because one writes about a man or men, that they then have to write about whether he has a woman or not and whether he loves her. Not all men are in love or care for romance. It seems unnatural to have a love or romance interest in all HF. Men and women relationships throughout history haven't always been about love and romance, some were based on a need, some were for lust, some were to beget children...

I am married and i love my husband, but we aren't a package deal. I have my own story in life, as does he.

I depend on samples - sample freely, a paragraph is enough to cut out most, so no hassle. Don't you love to be the first to find one? When Amazon tells you: 'Be the first to review this book' and it's a knockout. You feel far too proud of yourself, almost as if you'd written it. I've seen people out there with that 'discovery instinct'.

Thank goodness for the 'look inside' feature on Amazon. Or the Google books look inside. I depend on it and will never buy a book unless I can read the first paragraph.
It hasn't saved me from making big mistakes as far as bad stories, but it has helped me many times from making badly written book mistakes.
I'll take a poor storyline over bad writing any day.

Originally in this thread when we were talking about the Roman books that are becoming more and more like pulp fiction...well the look inside feature has saved me from buying some of those books.

Extract:

“Lymond said quietly, ‘You had good reason to hate me. I always understood that. I don’t know why you should think differently now, but take care. Don’t build up another false image. I may be the picturesque sufferer now, but when I have the whip-hold, I shall behave quite as crudely, or worse. I have no pretty faults. Only, sometimes, a purpose.’ He paused, and said, ‘Est conformis precedenti. I owe the Somervilles rather a lot already.’

Philippa’s unwinking brown gaze flickered shiftily at the Latin and then steadied.

'I should have told you before. You don’t mind?’

‘If you had told me before, you might not have decided to have me for a friend. I don’t mind,’ said Francis Crawford and told, for once, the bare truth.”

― Dorothy Dunnett, The Disorderly Knights

She does love and relationships in the most amazingly ambiguous way and if any reader wants their mind stretched, I'd say read all her books.

Yes, 'Look Inside' is a saver. Truly I think sampling has solved my problems. They give you enough to know whether you can stand the writing (1st for me too), and you're right, you can't judge the story yet, but you can have a punt. Besides it's fun sampling, like a lucky dip or candy shop. I have hundreds on my Kindle.

Extract:

It was that night that she panted and gasped and writhed against me, while at the same time warning that nothing must happen - then gripping me in a strong hand, like she was about to chop wood, she gave three or four deft strokes, for all the world as if she milked an annoyed goat, and there I was, gasping, squint eyed and bucking like a mad rabbit, emptied.


Brought to you by the master of non romance Robert Low

Bryn wrote: "Yes, 'Look Inside' is a saver. Truly I think sampling has solved my problems. They give you enough to know whether you can stand the writing (1st for me too), and you're right, you can't judge the ..."

I also use it to show people what a writer is like if they are not sure on a book.

Terri wrote: "Extract:

...as if she milked an annoyed goat, and there I was, gasping, squint eyed and bucking like a mad rabbit..."

That's pretty good. Lucky I'm about to read him.

Terri wrote: "Extract:

It was that night that she panted and gasped and writhed against me, while at the same time warning that nothing must happen - then gripping me in a strong hand, like she was about to cho..."

Nope, not my thing at all!

Lol. He makes me laugh all the time. Can't wait for the new book.
That excerpt is from book two.

Dorothy Dunnett
She has an intelligent, witty style - yes, she's funny too - I kill for wit in novels. But I haven't gotten into her subjects or content and I tail off. I have this in the soon-to-read pile King Hereafter - it's the Macbeth story, and I think is most likely for me.

Sorry if we're getting off-topic.

Maybe we need to define the term or amount of 'romance' :)

For example, in Shōgun (I'm using this example mainly because this book appeared in the description of the group :)) is there enough or not enough or too much romance?

For me it has just the right amount of it :)

There is a group on GoodReads that has this description:

The focus of this group is historical fiction set in ancient, middle, or early modern ages (now including modern history), in any geographical location. Preference is given to escapist, chest-thumping, buttock-slapping themes of epic proportions: engaging politics, sprawling battles, sex, drugs (errr ... mead) and debauchery. If works by such authors as Jack Whyte, Conn Iggulden, Bernard Cornwell, or Steven Pressfield resonate with you, this group is designed for you.