“A plane crashing into an oil tanker, causing a tsunami, triggering a nuclear explosion.” Prince Andrew’s Newsnight interview with arch-interrogator Emily Maitlis has been described in many different terms since it aired on BBC Two on Saturday night, but it didn’t come from out of the blue. Behind Maitlis was what she called Newsnight’s “formidable planning team”, who were engaged in negotiations for months before the prince unexpectedly agreed to the no-holds-barred, hour-long interview. Among them was Sam McAlister, interviews producer at Newsnight for the past ten years and a former criminal defence barrister who has been described as a “booker extraordinaire” by Maitlis herself. McAlister spoke to GQ exclusively to recount the painstaking process of bringing to the interview the man who everyone is now talking about.
GQ: Everyone always talks about the interviewers when these things come out, but this seems to be an unusual occasion in that producers such as you are getting a bit more recognition and are being touted, at least on social media, as almost the heroes of the story. How does that feel?
Sam McAlister: T he reason that happened is because of my wonderful editor, Esme Wren, who immediately, when the scoop was announced, tagged me on Twitter as the person who had negotiated it. That's very rare, first of all. Second of all, it feels strange, because we’re usually behind the scenes. There are many people who work many, many long hours doing the same kind of job as I do, hoping and dreaming [that] one day, you might have something this extraordinary. And it's nice to have the recognition, absolutely. It feels strange... Lots of producers around the country have got in touch with me who do similar jobs. It's a nice moment. It feels like a lot of people out there who do a lot of long hours and a lot of graft feel that, almost, they can identify with me having this recognition.
The weirdest thing was this morning when I was on the Tube reading about myself in the paper. I missed my stop, because someone started talking to me, having recognised me from the paper. We usually make the news; we're not in it. So, yes, it's unusual, but I have to be honest, it's been a fantastic experience.
What did the person on the train say to you?
“Is that you?” And I was like, “Yes! Yes, it is.” And then they said something nice about me looking better in real life, which is very sweet. And by that time I’d missed my stop. So that was that. It's been very positive; I haven't had any nasty comments. It’s been very kind, generous comments from around the world.
Tell me about the actual process of securing the interview. Am I right in thinking you first got in touch a year ago?
Yes. I’ve been personally in touch with the palace, either directly or indirectly, for a year. The first conversation was about the Duke’s work with entrepreneurs – that was the focus of what we [would have been] talking about. That didn't work out initially and then I was invited to talk to the palace again in May, again, obviously, about that important work that he does, which he is obviously extremely passionate about. I went to the palace for a meeting to discuss the contents of the interview. At that stage, the palace were kind enough to indicate that they would allow us to ask a variety of questions beyond the entrepreneurialism because obviously, as you know, our editorial freedom is absolutely everything and we can't agree to any conditions to any interviews that we do. [But] at that juncture, we were unable to come to an agreement because, ironically, we weren't going to be able to ask about Mr Epstein. At that stage, of course, it was something that was not in the news at all.
Epstein was still alive, obviously.
He was still alive and he hadn't been charged. So it was, in that sense, not an issue that was prevalent in the news, but, of course, any conditions whatsoever, we have to turn an interview down. So we politely declined. We stayed in touch and I went back after Epstein had been charged and then died. And this culminated in going back with Emily a couple of weeks ago to the palace. And then we – myself, Emily and Stewart Maclean, the deputy editor – went again on Monday for the face-to-face final conversation with His Royal Highness in the room.
In a practical sense, can you tell me who exactly you were talking to? One of the questions has been who thought it was a great idea for the prince to do this interview. Who at the palace were you talking to?
I can confirm, as is already known, that Amanda Thirsk was the person I was mostly dealing with, who was extremely charming, well-informed, thorough and brilliant. And also, as you know, in the final meeting, His Royal Highness was there face-to-face. I think it would be remiss of me to draw any conclusions about how the interview went. That's a matter for other people. But those were the logistics in terms of the people we were speaking with.
You've obviously arranged things such as this in the past. Newsnight, of course, often interviews major figures. But how did this compare in terms of the process? Was it atypical and, if so, how different was it from other Newsnight specials?
My job is a strange one in that effectively I am chasing the impossible. Often, chasing the impossible can take years and end in nothing. Sometimes you chase the impossible, it takes minutes and you end with a yes. It's completely unpredictable. And you just don't really know what you're going to get.
You had no way of knowing whether or not you were going to spend a long time doing something that came to nothing or whether it would, as it did, come to be what is clearly the most significant interview of my entire career. You just don't know which one it’s going to be. That, I think, is the interesting part of the job. Usually, nothing comes of the extraordinary things that you're trying to chase. This was a notable exception.
Did you expect it to be this significant? At what point did you realise this was going to be, as you say, the most important interview of your career?
When you’re in the process of doing this, as you can imagine – I'm not talking just about myself but on all sides and for all of those involved, whether they be at the palace or here on Newsnight – there’s an inordinate amount of stress, logistics, hard work and many people on the team working relentlessly for many, many hours to bring this to screen. You're running on adrenaline, to be honest.
But once the cameras start rolling and you're sitting behind His Royal Highness The Duke Of York, doing his first ever interview on allegations of the type that you never expect to hear a member of the royal family speak on in your lifetime, you definitely start to feel that something momentous, of national significance, is happening. And that was certainly my feeling when I was lucky enough to be in that room.
Was there a specific moment in the interview when that struck you? Or was it a gradual gut feeling?
I think it was a combination. I don't want to comment on the Duke’s answers – he was nothing but frank with us, as we had been frank with him throughout about the nature of the interview. As Emily said, no questions were agreed beforehand. It was no-holds-barred. But the extent of his openness, frankness, the length of his answers, the generosity of the time that he spent with us... It certainly felt a very significant and unusual situation to be in.
In terms of the time and the place, was the idea always to do it at the palace?
That was always certainly in the conversations about this interview, about Mr Epstein and the allegations against His Royal Highness. It was always my understanding that it would be at the palace, although that wasn't explicitly discussed.
When was it locked in that it was going to be there?
It was always the assumption that it would be at the palace because all the meetings had been there, but it was the last part of the puzzle – the agreement to the interview was 99 per cent of the situation and those logistics were the bit that fell after.
Tell me more about that meeting two weeks before: you went in with a fairly open hand and the Prince’s representatives knew that you didn't want to pre-agree questions and that nothing was going to be off limits. Were there still any attempts to negotiate red lines?
There were absolutely no red lines. I think the most extraordinary thing about this, in fairness to the palace, is that there was never a time when that was even an issue. And that’s extremely rare, to be honest with you. Often, you are doing negotiations where a lot of red lines are trying to be put on the table or lots of conditions are mooted. Of course, we always say no to them. But I can’t think of a single time when there was anything of that kind, whatsoever, which is extremely unusual.
Do you think the palace thought that the interview would go so well and clear the air that it would be beneficial to not have those red lines in the first place?
I can’t speculate, but I think they understood from the dealings that we've had that we are not a programme that accepts conditions on our editorial freedom in any way whatsoever. Clearly, working with Emily, who is one of the most extraordinary people I've ever worked with, she is not a journalist to accept conditions on her interviews of any kind and we could not have been clearer. They understood that that was what they were looking for. To be frank, they wanted to do something that was clear, open, impartial, rigorous – and there was never any misunderstanding about what was on offer. The integrity and the rigour of the programme, I feel, is one of the things that attracted them to us.
So why Newsnight? Because the Duke must have had a lot of offers, a lot of options...
Everyone in the country and the world wanted this interview, absolutely.
So why do you think they went for such a rigorous programme?
I can’t know what was in the minds of the individuals who finally made that decision. But it was certainly my understanding that all the things that you just described – the rigour, the methodical nature, the questioning, the way that Emily would do the interview – were seen as positives, because as far as the palace was concerned, this is not going to be done again, this interview. This is a one-off. And they wanted to ensure that there were no misunderstandings about His Royal Highness doing a candid and fair exchange. I think that's what attracted them to us, because if you're looking for candid, fair and rigorous there is no better place in the world to do an interview, than with us.
There's been a lot of speculation about how atypical it is for a royal to have done this. Who do you think was saying, “Do this interview”? Do you think Prince Andrew himself drove it through?
I genuinely have no idea. I can’t answer that question in any way that's fair to the individuals that were in that room. But obviously, Prince Andrew met us face-to-face and he heard our arguments, our views, our beliefs and what was available with Newsnight. I have no idea what conclusions he or whoever else drew from what we presented to them over those two hours.
Once you’d confirmed the interview, you had quite a short period of time to prepare. Can you tell me about that process? Emily Maitlis wrote about practising for every scenario, rehearsing with someone playing the prince. Is that typical?
I think that in every sense, this was not a typical situation. We are very lucky to have an extremely experienced group of journalists and an editor who have been fortunate enough to do some extraordinary things in their careers. And as you can imagine, we threw the resources you would expect at ensuring Emily was in the best possible situation to ensure she felt she had said and done everything that needed to be done to make sure the interview was what we wanted it to be.
How do you deal with the demands and deadlines of an interview such as this one?
The answer’s a very short one: coffee and adrenaline. It's one of those pinch-yourself moments. It's hard to believe that this happened. And even though it has happened, and it's me, it's still hard to believe. It's really been quite an extraordinary experience.
Is it true that afterwards you got a tour of the palace?
Yes, that's true. The prince was extremely congenial afterwards, as he was throughout the entire process – he could not have been more generous and kind to us, particularly given the circumstances, and he showed Emily and other members of the team around the palace.
Prince Andrew & The Epstein Scandal: The Newsnight Interview is on BBC iPlayer now.
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