Sofia Gubaidulina My Desire Is Always To Rebel To Swim Against The Stream Vera Lukomsky

Sofia Gubaidulina: "My Desire Is Always to Rebel, to Swim against the Stream!
"
Author(s): Vera Lukomsky and Sofia Gubaidulina
Source: Perspectives of New Music, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Winter, 1998), pp. 5-41
Published by: Perspectives of New Music
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SOFIA GUBAIDULINA:
"MY DESIRE IS ALWAYSTO REBEL,

TO SWIMAGAINSTTHE STREAM!"
INTERVIEWCONDUCTED AND
TRANSLATEDFROMTHE RUSSIAN
BYVERA LUKOMSKY*
with Sofia Gubaidulina was conducted in London in

November 1996, on the eve of the concert of her music at Queen
Elizabeth Hall, which the London Sinfonietta (Britain's pre-eminent
new-music ensemble) dedicated to a celebration of Gubaidulina's birthday. The concert, titled Sofia Gubaidulina at Sixty-Five: "I am the Place
Where East Meets West," featured Meditation on Bach's Chorale "Before
Thy Throne I Come, 0 Lord," for amplified harpsichord and five strings
(1993); Seven Words,a seven-movement chamber concerto for cello,
bayan, and string orchestra (1982); and Teper'vsegdasnega (Now Always
Snow), a five-movement work for chamber choir and ensemble written to
poems by Gennady Aigi (1993).1
HIS INTERVIEW
*Sofia Gubaidulina, VeraLukomsky.
Perspectivesof New Music
Sofia Gubaidulina is recognized as one of the most original and powerful composers of our time, one of the leading representatives of the
Soviet avant-garde of the 1970s and 1980s. Together with fellow composers such as Schnittke, Denisov, Silvestrov, and Part, Gubaidulina
opposed the totalitarianismof Soviet ideology. Her predilection for mysticism and metaphysics, her religious spirituality and musical fantasy that
often project images of the Apocalypse and the Last Judgment, her preoccupation with musical symbols of crucifixion, resurrection, and transfiguration, did not, of course, meet the requirements of Socialist Realism.
In the Brezhnev and post-Brezhnev Soviet Union, Gubaidulina's works
were condemned to be unrecognized, unperformed, and unpublished.
Even now, in post-Soviet society, where Gubaidulina's music is highly
appreciated, her numerous CDs recorded in the West remain unavailable
in the Russian market.2
Gubaidulina was born in 1931 in the small Tatar Autonomous
Republic3 which was a part of the Russian Federation in the Soviet
Union, on the East bank of the Volga. Gubaidulina is the daughter of a
Russian mother and a Tatar father who, as the son of a Muslim mullah,
experienced life-long persecution. After studies in piano and composition
at the Kazan Conservatory of Music, Gubaidulina transferred to the
Moscow Conservatory. Her problems with Soviet ideology arose when
she applied for graduate school: the Conservatory's composition professors found that she had chosen the wrong way-that is, not the prescribed road of Socialist Realism. Fortunately, Gubaidulina received some
encouragement from Shostakovich. After graduating from the Moscow
Conservatory in 1959, she became a freelance composer, supporting herself mainly by composing music for the movies.4 This gave her the opportunity to experiment with unusual instrumental combinations and
unconventional methods of sound production that are among the most
fascinating aspects of Gubaidulina's music.
An extremely important source of creative inspiration was the improvisation group Astraea, which Gubaidulina founded with composers
Vyacheslav Artyomov and Victor Suslin in 1975. Improvising together,
they experimented with rare Russian, Caucasian, and Central Asian folk
and ritual instruments, including those used by Siberian shamans
(Gubaidulina's interest in shamanism is reflected in some of her works of
the 1970s and 1980s).
Gubaidulina first gained recognition in the West after Gidon Kremer's
premiere of her Offertorium in the early 1980s. Since then, she has
achieved world renown. She has received many prestigious awards,
including membership in the German Akademie der Kiinste. After the
collapse of the Soviet Union, Gubaidulina left Russia; since then she has
An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina
Photographby AlexanderLukomsky
SOFIA GUBAIDULINA
resided in Germany in a small village near Hamburg. She is in great

demand for new works and is full of new ideas.
In the United States, Gubaidulina first gained attention in 1988, after
the Soviet/American festival Making Music Together, which was held in
Boston. Among her recent American premieres are the Viola Concerto,
commissioned by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and performed by its
dedicatee, Yury Bashmet (Chicago and Boston, April 1997); The
Canticle of the Sun (on texts of St. Francis of Assisi), for cello, chamber
chorus, and two percussionists (Washington D.C., May 1998); a concerto for two violas and orchestra, Two Paths (Dedication to Mary and
Martha), commissioned by the New York Philharmonic (conducted by
Kurt Masur); and a concerto for koto, bass koto, zheng, and orchestra,
In the Shadowof the Tree,commissioned by Japan's NHK orchestra (conducted by Charles Dutoit). The last two compositions were performed in
New York on the same day (29 April 1999).
During my professional life as a musicologist in St. Petersburg, where I
lived until 1990, I had no chance to hear or study Gubaidulina's major
works, since they were kept away from performance and publishing. My
fascination with and admiration for her music are due to my life in the
West. I was fortunate to meet and conduct two interviews with her in the
spring of 1995, when Sofia Gubaidulina was invited to San Jose State
University as guest composer for a festival of her music.5 The present
interview was conducted a year and a half later, in London.
Sofia Asgatovna, I am writing an article about you for inclusion in the
forthcoming bookThe Twentieth Century Musical Avant-Garde.6 I know
that you hate the notion of the avant-garde, and do not seeyourselfamong
the avant-gardists. Could you, please, explain your position?
In my opinion, when somebody uses the word "avant-garde" as the
criterion of what is good and what is bad in art, at a certain point it
becomes dangerous for art. Of course, from time to time-for example at
the beginning of the twentieth century-it became absolutely necessary
to renew the musical means, the musical language. This is because the
musical material had become hardened, "petrified." Harmonic successions were "petrified"to such a degree that they were as meaningful and
expressive as words. At that point, music needed something new that
would explode it. But otherwise, composers should think about depth,
not about innovations.
When we think of ourselves as "avant-gardists,"it means that we are
looking for something to amaze the public, to entertain it, as if the public
sits and watches, thinking: "What are you going to surprise us with?"
Such a position is not beneficial for art. The task of art is very deep: not
to lose the subconscious, and at the same time, not to let the subconscious become uncontrolled. This task is not new; it is "assigned" to art
of all times, and now it is extremely vital and urgent, too. These days to
care about being avant-gardeis a tradition that means do not think about
the necessities of art.
I have hated the word "avant-garde" for a very long time. When we
were young in Moscow, the authorities called us "avant-gardeartists" to
curse us. And at that time I did not have a reason to rebel. But now it
sounds not like a curse, but like encouragement: "Oh, the avant-garde
composer! How wonderful!" I do not like such praise. My desire is
always to rebel, to swim against the stream! To swim against the stream
for me means to introduce seriousness in art.
It seemsto me that sometimesthe avant-garde swims against the stream,
particularly at moments of the 'petrification" when, as you noted, music
needsto be "exploded."
I think that the "avant-garde,"if it is chosen as a criterion of "what is
good," is actually harmful for art. We (composers and musicologists as
well) need to protest against it! We must worry about the incarnation of
our idea, about meaning and formation. The contemporary artist is faced
with an extremely important task: finding a correlation between intuition
and intellectual work. It is really an urgent and difficult task. However, it
absolutely does not matter whether it looks new or old. News is good for
newspapers, for journals. But art strives for depth, not for the news!
Don't you think that the criterion of "newness,"that is, innovation, is
appropriateforstudying music and teaching music history?For example,for
explaining what this or that composerintroduced to music?
I don't know. Maybe. But for art itself the accent on innovation is very
harmful, because for the artist it leads to loss of concentration. Too much
attention on an external effect is bad. And if it is bad for art, it is bad for
the students, too!
When a musicologist writes about a composer, the main issue should
be what is essential in his or her music. Let's imagine that somebody
writes about Bach, and tries to emphasize what Bach introduced as new
to music. Bach gave us enormous depth but, from the point of view of
innovations, very little. There is nothing new in Bach's harmony or
polyphony, nothing that you could not find also in Buxtehude's works.
Bach did not care about being "new"! His music was absolutely new, but
not in this sense.7 Astonishingly, in regard to "innovations," these days
the opinion of critics does not coincide with the opinion of the public. It
is diametricallyopposed. It should not be this way, it is a sickness.
Maybethe opinion of the critics is the opinion of the elite?
Not at all! You think highly of critics and underestimate the public!
Within the public there is a wonderful elite! I am against those artists
who state that "the public will eat anything; the public are fools." Maybe
a difference of opinion arises because critics embrace the convention that
music needs more and more of the new. They forget that at a certain
point innovation might become harmful. But the public does not expect
something new; it comes to the concert to get impressions. The public
strives for active spiritual work. And it applauds composers and performers for presenting something that allows people to experience a state of
concentration, to bring themselves into a state of wholeness, to cure
themselves from the state of dispersal and disconnection that they suffer
10
in everyday life. Listening to a musical composition, like reading a book,

helps people restore themselves, even though critics might give a negative evaluation because "there was nothing new in this music." When a
publisher asks a musicologist to write about a composer and accentuate
the avant-garde aspect of his or her music, the formulation of the question is traditional, and it is not propitious for art. If I were you, I would
protest against this convention.
Nevertheless,each significant composerbrings to music new horizonsand
important inventions. From this perspective,which of your compositional
discoveriesdo you considerthe mostfundamental? What is your contribution
to music?
From this point of view, I can find nothing new in my music. But I
work very persistently and enthusiastically on two things that attract me
strongly. The first is the "rhythm of the form."8 From the outside, it is
perhaps unnoticeable, but I consider it to be fundamental. It is an experiment, my personal experiment. It is my risk. Sometimes I succeed in it,
sometimes not. Sometimes I am happy if I find a successful solution for at
least one episode. But, for example, Teper'vsegda snega (Now Always
Snow) is entirely successful according to my criteria for what is "good"
and "pure."9Other compositions sometimes turned out to be successful,
but without my intention. It means that I found an optimal "rhythm of
the form" intuitively. For example, in composing I: Prazdnestvov razgare
(And: The Feast Is in Full Progress),10I was limited in time and could
not make all the necessary mathematical calculations. But when the concerto was performed, I discovered that my intuition, together with the
intuition of the performer, gave a result close to the ideal I was seeking.
All these experiments require real efforts. This is difficult, but I see nothing new in it.
I cannot agree with your conclusion, because surely every experiment
brings something new. I think that your searchfor proportionality within
musicalform introducesvery new methodsof organizing musical material.
Although the idea of musical applications of the Fibonacci series is not new
(in the twentieth century it attracted such different composersas Debussy,
Bartok, and Stockhausen),I think that your use of this mathematical idea is
unique. Tour solutionsare very diverse.For example,you work not only with
the Fibonacciseries,but with other mathematical series,using the tension of
the "perfect"proportions between the successivenumbers of the Fibonacci
seriesand the "imperfect"proportionsbetweenthe numbers of other mathematical series.I think that you "spiritualized," so to speak,and made meaningful the concept of the Fibonacci series. For example, successivemotion
along the numbersfrom the Fibonacci seriesin decreasingorder in the symphony Stimmen ... Verstummen..., comes to a mathematical "absolute
II
zero," which is a result of the catastrophicApocalypsedepicted in the eighth

movement. This aabsolutezero" (ninth movement) you actualized in the
music as a "solo"forthe conductor.
The second thing that attracts me is an exploration of quarter-tone
temperament. I understand it as a unification of two spaces: the first is
the twelve-semitonal space, and the second is another twelve-semitonal
space a quarter tone higher. For me this is a metaphor of the image and
its shadow, or a day and a night. From my point of view, in the twelvetone compositions of the twentieth century, everything is as in the daytime; everything is enlightened and rationalized; there is no place for
"night." "Night" existed as a supplement of the diatonic system: the diatonic sphere was "day," whereas the chromatic sphere was "night": one
could go there and return. That blessed situation gave us classical and
romantic composers. In twelve-tone compositions we lost "night":
everything became "day." But within the twenty-four tone scale, we may
have not only "a day," but also "a night." I experimented with this in
Quarternion, for four cellos (1995), and Music for Flute and Strings
(1995). In the latter, the strings are divided into two groups: the left
group is tuned as usual, the right group a quarter tone lower. In Quarternion, four cellos are divided into two groups, two instruments in each.
They are like the image and its shadow. In microtonal music there is
always a risk that the quarter tones won't be heard: often the audience
perceives them just as an imprecise intonation of a performer. So my
experiment was aimed at a separation of the two spaces, that I tried to
make audible. I like the episode in Musicfor Flute and Strings where one
space (a group tuned one quarter tone lower) moves up, whereas another
space (a group tuned conventionally) moves down. These spaces move
crosswise, but do not "notice" each other. The music itself is very simple:
there are just major chords, but the structure seems to me very beautiful:
the two spaces do not come into contact with each other. The composition is written for a big string orchestra: it gives me the possibility of
using a powerful sonority in each space. The soloist (a flute player who
alternates between the standard flute, piccolo, alto, and bass flute) is
located between these two groups, joining one or another space by
means of glissandos-the ability of the flute to play quarter tones makes
this possible. The soloist is thus colored by either one space or another.
Is this a long composition?
Approximately twenty minutes. It is a one-movement piece.
I started my experiments with quarter-tone music not because I
intended to be "new." Many composers of the twentieth century had
explored this sphere, for example, Alois Haball and Ivan Vyshnegradsky.12This search in the microtonal realm seems to be very relevant to
12
our century. Many contemporary composers are involved in these experiments. I came to this idea following my friend, the composer Victor
Suslin,'3 who began thinking about quarter-tone music after reading
Boleslav Yavorsky,'4a very gifted Russian music theorist, who was a true
generator of new ideas. In particular, Suslin was attracted by Yavorsky's
suggestion to resolve a tritone neither to a third nor to a sixth, but to a
perfect fifth by means of contrary voice-leading in which each part moves
a quarter tone.
I was very inspired to learn that a prominent Danish composer Per
Norgard'5 undertakes experiments in this direction, too. He attended my
talk in one symposium, where I discussed my ideas with quarter-tone
music, and said that he was doing something similar.Later he sent me his
musical composition dealing with this issue. It turns out that quartertone music became so relevant to our time, that many composers are
working in this direction independently from each other. Maybe this is a
moment when we can find something fruitful gradually, if everyone will
introduce his or her discoveries. It could be something very important.
But it is not new!
If severalpeoplesimultaneouslyexplorethe same sphere,doesn't this mean
that this is a new tendencyof art? A similar situation occurredin the beginning of the twentieth centurywhen, searchingfor new musical spaces,several
composersalmost simultaneouslydiscoveredatonalism and dodecaphony.
Yes. I think it means that there is something music desperately needs.
Composers make efforts in a certain direction not because they wish to
show people that they are better or "newer" than the others, but because
music itself demands it, and our efforts naturally start to turn in this
direction. Such an "objective necessity" really attractsme, and in this case
I would not consider the experiments as a wish to "show (yourself) off."
I hate it when I feel something selfish in musical innovation, when it is
clear that a composer just wants to draw attention to him- or herself. But
the efforts caused by the "demand" of music might stay unnoticed.
Maybe nobody will notice them; nobody will call them an "innovation."
These efforts are really necessary for music.
I am looking at a beautiful music scoredesigned like a fish, with nonconventional notation. What is it?
It is a song from my new cycle, Galgenlieder (Songs of the Gallows),
for soprano, percussion, and double bass. Despite Morgenstern's16 sinister title, the poems are kindhearted and elegant, full of refined absurdism. They are about animals. For example, a charming poem "Das
aesthetische Wiesel" (The Aesthetic Weasel), where the first stanza has
three rhymes:17
13
Ein Wiesel
saf auf einen Kiesel
inmitten Bachgeriesel.
Wifit ihr
weshalb?
Das Mondkalb
verriet es mir
im Stillen:
Das raffinierte Tier
tat's um des Reimes willen.18
Christian Morgenstern. Galgenlieder.A selection. Translated,
with an introduction, by Max Knight. Copyright ?1963 Max
E. Knight. Used by permission of University of California Press.
A Weasel
sat on a stone
in the middle of a rippling stream.
Do you know why
it sat there?
The mole
whispered to me
secretly:
The refined beast
did it
for
the rhyme!
just
(translated by Vera Lukomsky)
The score, arranged in the shape of a fish, is a musical setting for the
poem "Fisches Nachtgesang" (Fish's Night Song).19 As the Russian poet
Samuil Marshak wrote in a popular poem for children, "a fish opens its
mouth, but nobody hears what it sings." Morgenstern's "Fisches Nachtgesang" is a "dumb" poem consisting only of hyphens and arch-like symbols-like those marking meter in poetic theory; the contour of the
poem is laid out like a fish (see Example 1). Morgenstern ironically called
his creation "the most profound German poem." I too decided to compose a soundless song. So, instead of a clef, I wrote at the beginning of
each music line a natural sign that means "cancel the sound," "refuse any
14
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EXAMPLE
1: GUBAIDULINA,
NIGHT
SONG),
"FISCHES
FROM
NACHTGESANG"
(FISH'S
GALGENLIEDER.
real sonority." The score for the singer is designed to be read vertically,
that is, from the head to the tail of the fish (Example 1). These vertical
lines on the fish's body (that represent the five horizontal lines of the
musical staff) broadened and narrowed. During the first half of the song,
the singer graduallyopens her mouth wider and wider; during the second
half, she gradually closes her mouth. At the very end of her "part" there
15
is a fermata, which is the end of the fish's tail. Meanwhile, the double
bass player moves the bow above the strings, always soundless. Each
hyphen corresponds to one full motion of the bow. The percussionist
makes gestures with a stick, imitating the arch-like symbols in Morgenstern's poem, but of course without producing any sound.
Thus, this is gestural music. I like very much the fermata at the end. As
you know, my specialty is rests: the longest "rest" I have written so far is
a conductor's solo in the symphony Stimmen ... Verstummen....20 This
composition of Galgenliedertook all of last year. I enjoyed the poems and
invented different musical gadgets.
I always wanted to ask you about Filipp Herschkowits,21a figure very
important for manygifted Soviet composerswho came to their maturity in
the 1950s and later. A disciple of Webernand Berg, Herschkowitsleft Austria in 1939, escaping the Nazi occupation. For thegreater part of his life,
until 1987, he lived in the Soviet Union, in Moscow.The only source of his
income was private students, since he was not permitted to teach in the Conservatory, and his music has never beenperformed. Nevertheless,he became
a source of inspiration and a consultant of such composersas Volkonsky,
Schnittke, Denisov, Firsova, Smirnov. Victor Suslin called him "an apostle
sent by Webernto Moscowto teach the barbarians."22
Filipp Moiseevich was an extremely important figure for all of us when
we were young. He was much older, and we considered him an authority.
As a former pupil of Webern, he brought the tradition of the Second
Viennese School to Russia. Besides that, he was a very profound analyst
of the First Viennese School, particularly the music of Mozart and
Beethoven. He became very important for us and for the next generation
of composers. In addition, he possessed a great sense of humor and a
very sharp, original mind. Our life in Moscow would have been boring
without him.... He did not want to teach the dodecaphonic technique
of composition and usually refused. But his thoughts about Beethoven,
and his analysis of all the Beethoven periods, were brilliant. Discussing
musical compositions, he carried the highest criteria of what is good and
bad. He introduced a strictness into our lives. I value him very highly.
Did he analyze the worksof Schoenbergand Webern?
He certainly did. But I particularlyremember his exceptional interest
in and love of the classics ....
Did you take private lessonswith Herschkowits?
No, never. It was a friendship. He came to see me from time to time.
Sometimes I visited him.
I would like to ask you about your contact with Shostakovich.I saw it
mentioned somewherethat after yourgraduation exam at the MoscowConservatory,Shostakovichwanted you "tocontinue on your 'mistaken'path."
16
Yes, he said exactly these words, and it was a strong encouragement for
me. At that time in our Department of Composition at the Moscow
Conservatory, I and some other student composers were the object of a
severe critique. And although we were accepted to the graduate school,
the Conservatory officials declared that, despite our giftedness and capacity for hard work, we had chosen the wrong way, or what they called "a
false way" (the "right way," of course, meant Socialist Realism). For our
graduation exam, Shostakovich was the Chair of the State Examination
Committee. When the Committee discussed our works, Shostakovich
protected me very vigorously from other professors who thought my
direction unacceptable. They objected that my composition was well
made, but not suitable. Shostakovich defended me. Later, after the exam,
he told me personally: "Everybody thinks that you are moving in the
wrong direction. But I wish you to continue on your 'mistaken' path."
So he supported me in my striving for freedom, my striving to be myself.
It means that he defended the right of an artist to be him- or herself and
go along his or her own path, even if it seemed "false."
Shostakovich's words were very important to me. His support was significant. I met with the composer only two or three times. These were
usually just occasional meetings when I, as a student, accompanied my
professor Nikolai Ivanovich Peiko. But after my exam, Peiko brought me
to Shostakovich's apartment, and I played my Symphony for him. The
Symphony was, of course, bad-just a student work. I composed it as
best as I could at that time. He supported this composition, and said to
me, as a farewell, those words about a "mistaken"path.
Shostakovich'sreputation in the West (at least, in the U.S.) is still blemished.Liberal intellectuals cannotforgive Shostakovich
for becominga member and an officerof the Communist Party, cannot forgive him for some of
his "loyal"compositions.
In my opinion, we do not have a right to judge the generation of our
fathers as well as the generation of Shostakovich. He was a grand talent,
and I am very thankful to him that he realized his talent. He lived his life
as he could. Americans should not condemn some of the steps he took.
His life was not ideal. He was not holy, but he was an artist. In the Soviet
state an artist was defenseless. Shostakovich needed to protect the main
thing-his right to exist as a composer. He protected it as best he could.
Some of his compositions are not masterpieces-for example, The Song of
the Forests,which he composed in order to rehabilitate himself in 1949.
But The Song of the Forestsprotected him, maybe saved his life, and Shostakovich got the opportunity to create his brilliant works. I am always
very grateful even if a composer left only one great composition. And in
the case of Shostakovich I think we cannot demand political consistency.
17
We require it from a politician-a politician must be consistent-but not

from an artist. Artists live as they can. Shostakovich and his generation
lived in a terrible time. In comparison with him, we are a happy generation. We had the advantage of learning the truth-although, unfortunately, post factum. Of course, we had our share of suffering;
nonetheless, our time was easier. This is why we are not qualified to judge
Shostakovich.
What is your personal experienceof that terrifying period? Did Stalin's
repressionshurt yourfamily?
I experienced enough suffering-scurvy when I was sixteen, hunger,
oppression ... but I cannot compare my experience with the suffering of
my father, or with that of Shostakovich.
What did your parents do?
My father was a land-surveyor engineer. He was the son of a Muslim
mullah, and all of his life he experienced persecution. For a long time he
was not admitted to institutes of higher education. Then, after he finally
was admitted, he was abruptly expelled. In the 1930s there was the real
possibility that he would be arrested and thrown into prison as the son of
a clergyman.23Our family lived in permanent stress, expecting his arrest
every night. I remember all the family shivered with fright. Actually, the
whole country shivered. My mother was a teacher in the school. She quit
her job after I was born. I was the youngest child. My older sister is a
doctor; the second sister is a pianist and a teacher. For a long time she
taught at the Kazan Conservatory of Music. Now she lives in Moscow.
I would like to askyou about your recent composition,Meditation on the
Bach Chorale "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit" (1993), which will be
performed tomorrowby the chamberensembleof the London Sinfonietta.
Actually, I am not happy with the English translation of the first word
of the title. "Razmyshlenie" in Russian means something close to "contemplation," whereas "meditation" often has a religious meaning, suggesting a deep submergence into something mystical. You know that I
like the words "mystical," "mysticism"; for me they are not a curse.24
This composition is my contemplation on Bach's chorale, specifically on
Bach's use of numbers. Amazingly, Bach's working with numbers represents and reflects his deepest and most personal relation to God. "Vor
deinen Thron tret ich hiermit" (I Step Before Thy Throne, O Lord) is
the last chorale written by Bach.25 Analyzing it, I discovered that Bach
used "his own" numbers 41, 14, 23. Scholars of Bach's music know that
each of these numbers represents his name, like his signature. For example, the number 41 means "Johann Sebastian Bach"; it is the sum of all
the letters constituting his name. Bach transferredletters of the alphabet
into numbers and added them together. The number 14 means "Bach";
18
the number 23 means "J. S. Bach."26As far as I remember, the number

37 means "Jesus Christ"; 73 means "Death of Christ." In his last chorale
Bach used all these symbolic numbers. Every single counterpoint contains one of the "Bach" numbers (41, 14, or 23). Their usage is so beautiful that one might conclude that, addressing God in this chorale, Bach
meant: "Look, God: I, Johann Sebastian Bach, step before thy throne."
How did you discoverthe numbershidden in the counterpoints?
It is the number of quarter notes, or the number of entrances. I will
draw a diagram for you (Example 2)27.
-51
37
-14
88
37-(-51) -14-37 23-(-14) 9-23
23
32-9
32
23+9
41
73
9+32 41+32
114
187
41+73 73+114
EXAMPLE 2: BACH'S "SERIES" IN THE CHORALE "VOR DEINEN THRON

TRET ICH HIERMIT" (I STEP BEFORE THY THRONE, O LORD)
This diagram reveals Bach's amazing work with proportions, with the
additive-automorphological series.28 I discovered that in this chorale
Bach works with a series built out of "his own" numbers. I called it
"Bach's series."29I have never found any mention of this principle in the
literature on Bach: the scholars revealed only Bach's favorite numbers
and suggested their symbolic meaning. So all my findings are my own
observation. Everything is built out of this series. From my point of view,
this is an extraordinarilybeautiful picture, a mirror symmetry with the
number 9 in the center. As you see, Bach used not only "his" numbers.
Take the number 51, for example. In the chorale, it occurs as the result
of adding the two subsequent numbers, 14 and 37. The number 9, also
"alien," is taken as the center of the symmetry. I found it in the chorale,
too. The most interesting things became clear when I computed the
19
form of Bach's piece, which is a fourfold alternation of Bach's polyphonic

music and the chorale (a sacred song). That is, the piece consists of four
sections ABAB, where A is Bach's "own" music, and B is the chorale.
The first half of the piece is the longest (114 quarter notes). And I
thought: what if in the second half there are 73 quarter notes?! I counted
and re-counted many times, and could not get this number. Then my
husband noticed: "You haven't counted this fermata, which represents a
doubling." When I added the rhythmic value of a fermata, I got 73! And
I was greatly excited, because it meant that Bach used not only his numbers, but the series! And there is a Golden Mean, because all the additiveautomorphological series give the approximate proportion of the Golden
Mean (Example 3).
114
73
EXAMPLE 3: THE TEMPORAL

"VOR DEINEN
PROPORTIONS
THRON
IN THE BACH CHORALE
TRET ICH HIERMIT"
I was absolutely stunned! Bach's series became the subject and the
content of my contemplation. So, nothing here is related to meditation
in the traditional sense, as, for example, in Valentin Silvestrov's Meditation,30 which really is a submersion into something mystical, where the
matches are lighted up at a certain moment! I was thinking about numbers and devoted my composition to this idea! I used Bach's structural
principle: the sections of my music are followed by the chorale.
Did you usefor your Meditation the same chorale that was employedby
Bach?
Yes, it is the same sacred tune. I build a musical form according to
Bach's principle: episodes of music embodying my personal reflection
alternate with the chorale. Only instead of Bach's four-section form there
20
is a five-section form (I like the number five and prefer it to four). I dedicated my composition to Bach, in particularto this chorale.
I would like to ask you about Seven Words, which also will beperformed
in tomorrow'sconcert. Did you employthe Fibonacci series or other derived
series?
No. At that time I was not yet working with these series and proportions. As a specific feature of Seven Words(1982), I would point to the
symbols of the cross. There are many crosses of different kinds: for
example, numerous extensions and narrowings of the musical space in
the cello part. They sound like extremely emotional and expressive
shouts. I employed such shouts three times in the orchestra part too, the
last time at the very end. The design of the score (sudden extension and
narrowing of the texture) suggests the shape of the cross (Example 4).
The crucial thing for me was the idea of the crucifixion. I like very
much the idea of instrumental symbolism, when the instrument itself, its
nature and individuality, hints at or implies a certain meaning. The
instrument's quality and the meaning of music join each other. The word
"symbol" means "synthesis, or fusion of meanings." I wanted to find the
idea of the cross in the instruments themselves. The first thing that came
to mind, obviously, was the "crucifixion" of a string. This idea is
employed throughout the entire composition, from the very beginning.
The first movement is the crucifixion of the A string: it is crucified by
means of glissandos. The sound of the open A string is "cut off" by the
glissando from B, to G#, which the cellist performs on the neighboring
D string (Example 5).
In other movements all the other cello strings undergo "crucifixion":
the D string, then the G string, and, finally, the low C string in the sixth
movement, which is the dramatic climax-the death of Jesus Christ.
Before the cadenza, where the short dramatic motives in the orchestra
form a sheer melodic line and the bayan31"cuts off' the space with terrifying shouts, the cello crucifies the low C string, cutting it off with
mighty chords (Example 6).
In the final, seventh movement, I introduce a new cross in the correlation between the cello's string and the bridge. The cellist "crucifies" the
string by means of the bow, which gradually moves closer and closer to
the bridge. The sound becomes more and more unpleasant, expressive,
and eerie. And then-an eerie shout on the bridge! Then a shout as if it
were jumping away. The bow moves toward the bridge-and steps over
this border! That is, the cello itself becomes the cross, a place of crucifixion. And the bow escapes the bounds of the instrument, as if moving into
another dimension, to an "other world." In the "other world" presented
in this movement, the cello plays a very gentle melodic motion within a
21
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EXAMPLE 4: GUBAIDULINA,
ICH BEFEHLE
MEINEN
SEVEN WORDS, VII, "VATER,

HANDE" (FATHER,
GEIST IN DEINE
INTO THY HANDS
I COMMEND
MY SPIRIT)
22
very limited space, within a perfect fifth, which the cellist performs on the
very small space between the bridge and the end of the string (Gubaidulina sings a melody shown in Example 7). Meanwhile, when the cellist's
right hand presents "beyond the limits of life," the left hand plays harplike harmonics (Example 8).
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DENN
SEVEN WORDS, I, "VATER,
VERGIB IHNEN,
SIE WISSEN NICHT, WAS SIE TUN" (FATHER, FORGIVE

THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO), BEGINNING.
THEM; FOR
In this composition the cello is thus a crucified deity. But I needed to

present the idea of crossing over in the bayan part, too. I consulted with
bayanist Friedrich Lips (he and the cellist Vladimir Tonkha are the dedicatees of Seven Words),and he invented what I needed: while holding one
button, which sounds as a single sound, the bayan player slightly
depresses the neighboring button and does a glissando with the bellows.
It sounds as if one sound were "crossing over" to the other one. Lips
performs this "crossing" absolutely amazingly-not every bayanist is able
to do it as well as he. Later, two other sounds "cross over" to another
two. The entire fifth movement is devoted to the bayan's "crucifixion"of
sounds (Example 9).
In Seven Words there is a quotation from Heinrich Schutz. Can you
explain your principle of employingquotations?
23
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(IT
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24
ICH BEFEHLE MEINEN
SEVEN WORDS, VII,

HANDE"
GEIST IN DEINE
"VATER,
(FATHER,
INTO THY HANDS
I COMMEND
MY SPIRIT)
'I)ietro ponticello ..)
13
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Reprinted by permission of G. Schirmer, Inc.,

EXAMPLE
8: GUBAIDULINA,
ICH BEFEHLE
MEINEN
INTO THY HANDS
SEVEN WORDS, VII, "VATER,
GEIST IN DEINE
I COMMEND
HANDE"
MY SPIRIT),
(FATHER,
BEGINNING
Yes, there is the quotation from Schitz's oratorio The Seven Last
Words, which is a musical setting of the words "Mich dtirstet" ("I thirst,"
Example 10).
The quotation appears several times-the
first time at the end of the
first movement. For a long time the cellist "crucifies" the strings, and
after that, the quotation appears in the cello and bayan parts (Example
11), before the entrance of the string orchestra.
Discussing this and other quotations in my music, some musicologists
talk about polystylism. I absolutely disagree with such a notion. My use
of quotations differs from Schnittke's in principle: I do not play with
Vc. solo
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Reprintedby permissionof G. Schirmer,Inc.,
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"MICH
DURSTET"
SEVEN WORDS, V,
(I THIRST),
BEGINNING
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EXAMPLE 10: H. SCHUTZ, THE SEVEN LAST WORDS33
26
styles. For me it is not an issue of style. For example, in the Meditation on

the Bach ChoraleI employ quotation as an epigraph. This is exactly as if a
writer put an epigraph at the beginning of his or her own novel. It is a
common thing. A writer uses an epigraph not because he or she wants to
appropriatethe style of the person he or she is quoting. A writer wants to
adjoin, to come into contact with, a person who lived a long time ago.
And the epigraph is a point of meeting or contact with another writer. In
Seven Wordsmy quotation from Schitz is actually an epigraph. The only
difference is that the quotations are located not at the beginnings but at
the ends of movements. Its meaning is the same as an epigraph in a literary work. There is nothing new in this, and, of course, it is not polystylism at all.
Vc.
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EXAMPLE
11: GUBAIDULINA,
DENN
SEVEN WORDS, I, "VATER,
SIE WISSEN NICHT,
WAS SIE TUN"
(FATHER,
VERGIB IHNEN,
FORGIVE
THEM; FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO)
What about Offertorium, wherethe theme of King Frederickthe Great of

Prussia plays so important a symbolicand constructiverole?
It, too, is not polystylism. I used this theme not to refer to the style of
Frederick the Great (or Bach, who developed the same theme in his
Musical Offering), but to symbolize the idea of sacrifice. At the beginning of Offertorium, Frederick's theme is given in its complete shape.
The first section consists of several variations, where the theme "offers"
itself, "sacrificing"one note from the beginning and one from the end in
each variation. In the climax, just one (central) note of the theme is left.
Frederick's theme gradually returns in the third section (the second section is devoted to images of "cross suffering" and the Last Judgment).
27
The main event of the concerto, the Transfiguration,is in the coda: Frederick's theme appears in its complete shape, but in retrograde motion,
and nobody can recognize it (Examples 12 and 13).
You know, I was shocked when I read a review of Now Always Snow,in
which the author talks about my "polystylism." In my case, it is never a
stylistic issue. Musicologists do not know how to describe my style and
just attach inaccurate labels to my music! I think this is theoretical piracy
[laughing]! And I protest against the label "eclectic," which musicologists pin on Bach. Of course, he used plenty of borrowed material (from
Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Corelli, and many others), but Bach did not care
about style at all. He thinks about God, he talks with God in his music!
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EXAMPLE
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Reprinted by permission of G. Schirmer, Inc.,

EXAMPLE
13: GUBAIDULINA,
OFFERTORIUM
(CODA)
28
My last questionis about your experimentswith light and color,whichyou

undertook in some of your recent compositions,in particular, Alleluja.34I
am trying to imagine this compositionin a live performance.
Alleluja has not yet been performed with light fully realized.35 The
realization of the color lines of my score will require too much money,
too much effort. Maybe this project will never be realized. So far the idea
of light is my unrealized dream. Believe it or not, my personal contact
with Scriabin's music was negative. A performance of Prometheus,which
I attended in Louisville, was an unforgettably spectacular show. It cost
plenty of money: the more lights are in use, the more expensive it is. The
entire space of the concert hall was lighted. In Moscow performances of
Prometheus,the light was projected onto a screen, or onto a ceiling, or
onto a wall. But the entire space was not lighted. In the Louisville performance, the whole space was lighted and colored. The effect was absolutely staggering. But what happened with me as a listener to this music?
For me, music moved from the foreground to the background. I was listening to the music, but I did not like it! I stopped loving it! It became
the accompaniment to that actively affecting light, to the magnetic show
of colors! The effect of color turns out to be stronger than that of the
music! Music is a more difficult language, whereas the visual dimension is
more accessible. Its effect is stronger, brighter, and simpler. For this reason, the combination of music and light is very dangerous for music.
While making the spectacle very bright and captivating, this combination
simplifies our perception of an artwork. Unfortunately, music cannot
compete with the dynamism of light: music becomes a secondary component in their combination. The more bright and dynamic a visual component is, the more secondary is music. The magnetism of Scriabin's music
turns out not to be so exciting in this context. When I realized that, I
began to think about the reasons for Scriabin's failure in the musical
component of his synthesis of the arts. In my opinion, this failure is due
to Scriabin's system of linking light/color and music: every single sound
possesses its individual color: C is red, G is light blue, and so on. And
Scriabin's interpretation of light is purely melodic. This "melodic" interpretation makes the color/light component too mobile and dynamic.
Just imagine: the melody moves constantly, driving light and color to
move simultaneously. It makes the spectacle too dynamic. I came to the
idea that in the synthesis of music and light, light should be a static component. So in Alleluja I developed a concept that differs from Scriabin's.
I gave up the idea of providing every single musical sound with a special
color. Reading physics treatises on the theory of light, I was captivated
with the concept of light reflection and absorption. What physically happens with light when it falls onto a surface? A portion of the rays is
29
absorbed, while another is reflected. Depending on the proportion of the

absorbed and reflected rays, we see certain colors. I remember a scheme
in the shape of a circle, with the proportions corresponding to different
colors.36 In the center of this scheme there is a well-balanced and sedate
green color, whose proportion is 4:4 (that is, 4 rays are reflected, and 4
are absorbed). In this scheme colors were classified according to their
intensity. For example, yellow: its proportion is 7:1 (that is, 7 rays are
reflected, and only 1 is absorbed). And we perceive yellow as a very
intense and active color (Example 14).
Green(centralpositionin the schemeof colors)

Green(4:4)
reflected: //
absorbed:
\ \
Yellow(7:1)
Violet (1:7)
Light
blue
(3:5\\
Light blue (3:5)
Red (5:3)
//////
Orange(6:2)
//////
Blue (2:6)
EXAMPLE 14: SCHEME OF ABSORPTION AND

REFLECTION OF LIGHT RAYS37
30
In violet, the proportion is reversed relative to yellow (1:7). Red (5:3)

and light blue (3:5) constitute a second pair of colors with reversed proportions. In red, 5 rays are reflected and 3 are absorbed; it is an intensive
color. In light blue 3 rays are reflected and 5 are absorbed. Blue has a
proportion 2:6. The reversed color is orange (6:2). Thus, I got a scale of
tension, which is built according to the intensity of different colors:
yellow-orange-red-green-light blue-blue-violet
7:1
6:2 5:3 4:4
3:5
2:6 1:7
In the first movement of Alleluja there is no change of color. I used
only orange. While the music is moving, the color makes a crescendo.
Orange becomes more and more intense; its crescendo is very powerful.
Reaching its climax, the color starts the motion of diminuendo and disappears.The time proportion of crescendo and diminuendo is 6:2, which
is a proportion of reflected and absorbed rays in the orange color. This
proportion I calculated in quarter notes. Thus, the crescendo lasts three
times longer than the diminuendo. The color "breathes," so to speak; its
breath is very long (Example 15).
Orange
EXAMPLE
15:
SCHEME
ALLELUJA,
OF COLOR PROPORTIONS
IN
FIRST MOVEMENT
The second movement has another color narrative. There are three
colors: light blue (the time proportion of its crescendo and diminuendo
is 5:3), yellow (7:1), and orange (6:2). Each color makes a crescendo and
a diminuendo (Example 16).
The third and fourth movements have other colors and proportions.
Only in the sixth movement I employed a very powerful change of colors-as a color coordinate to the Epiclesa, which illustrates the end of the
world (Apocalypse). In the seventh movement, again, there is only one
color (violet, light violet) which makes a crescendo and a diminuendo.
31
light blue (5:3)
yellow (7:1)
orange(6:2)
EXAMPLE 16: SCHEME OF COLOR PROPORTIONS IN ALLELUJA,
SECONDMOVEMENT(DRAWNBYVERALUKOMSKY)
This is my concept of light and color. I find it very interesting, but it

seems impossible to realize.
I think this is agreat conceptand hopeyour compositionwill beperformed
with light and color.One more question.How doesthe music ofyourAlleluja
coordinatewith the colorsand their proportions?
The color proportion in the first movement of Alleluja (6:2; orange)
underlies the proportionality of the musical form in the second movement. That is, color determines the successive musical structure. In
sequence, the color proportion of the second movement determines the
form of the third movement. It turns out that color becomes a central
persona here, although this is not obvious at first. The color "breathes"
and gradually becomes more and more noticeable. And only in the sixth
movement, when all realize that this is the end of the world, do they nevertheless glorify the end singing "Alleluja!Alleluja!" At this moment the
organ part depicts a terrible cataclysm. Only in this place did I bring the
color into direct accord with the music. For this purpose I employed
"imitation" between two different media: light-music, and again,
light-music. The active interaction of these media gives an exceptional
effect. The last, seventh movement, which praises God, is again monochromatic. A boy soprano sings the liturgical hymn "Da ispolniatsia usta
moia khvaleniia Tvoego, Gospodi" ("Let my lips be full of praising you,
O Lord"). After a crescendo, light violet dissolves in a long "diminuendo" (Example 17).
The point is that my solution of color and light does not propose such
impressive and powerful effects as Scriabin's. For their money, prospective sponsors will demand something really spectacular,whose effects are
comparable with those in the cinema. But I do not want cinematic
effects: in Alleluja the striking change of colors occurs only once, in the
scene of Apocalypse. Nevertheless, for my music such a long-lasting static
color with its crescendos and diminuendos is the best solution: it is
exactly what music needs in combination with light.
32
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33
DISCOGRAPHY
VOCAL/CHORAL
Teper'vsegda snega (Now Always Snow) (1993) for chamber ensemble,

chamber choir, and speaker on verses by Gennady Aigi. Netherlands
Chamber Choir, Schonberg Ensemble, Reinbert de Leeuw, conductor.
Leonid Stasov (speaker). Philips 442531-2.
Alleluia (1990) for choir, boy's soprano and orchestra (premiere recording). Danish National Radio Choir, Danish National Radio Symphony
Orchestra, Dmitri Kitaenko, conductor. Chandos CHAN 9523.
Chas Dushi/Hour of the Soul (1988) for solo percussion, mezzo-soprano,
and orchestra on the poem by Marina Tsvetaeva. Mark Pekarsky (solo
percussionist), Liana Mkrtchyan (mezzo-soprano), Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra, Timur Mynbaev, conductor. Melodiya SUCD 100109.
Hommage a T. S. Eliot (1987) for soprano and octet on the poems by
T. S. Eliot. Christine Whittlesey (soprano), Gidon Kremer (violin I),
Isabelle van Kenlen (violin II), Tabea Zimmerman (viola), David Geringas (cello), Alois Posch (double bass), Edward Brunner (clarinet),
Klaus Thuneman (bassoon), Radovan Vlatkovia (horn), Charles
Dutoit, conductor. Grammophon GmbH 427 336-2.
Perception (1986) for soprano, baritone, and strings on verses by Francisco Tanzer. Stella Kleindienst (soprano), Siegfried Lorenz (baritone),
Schonberg Ensemble, Reinbert de Leeuw, conductor. Philips
442531-2.
Rubaiyat (1969), cantata for baritone and chamber orchestra on verses
by Khakani, Hafiz, and Omar Khayyam. Sergei Yakovenko (baritone),
"Collegium Musicum" Chamber Ensemble, Gennady Rozhdestvensky,
conductor. Melodiya SUCD 1-00109.
ORCHESTRAL
Pro et Contra (1989). Radio-Phihlarmonie Hannover des NDR,

Johannes Kalitzke, conductor. CPO 999 164-2.
Stimmen .. . Verstummen(1986), symphony in twelve movements. Royal
Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra, Gennady Rozhdestvensky, conductor. Chandos CHAN 9183.
34
Offertorium (1980), concerto for violin and orchestra. Gidon Kremer

(violin), Boston Symphony Orchestra, Charles Dutoit, conductor.
Grammophon GmbH 427 336-2.
Introitus (1978), concerto for piano and chamber orchestra. Andreas
Haefliger (piano). Radio-Philharmonie Hannover des NDR, Bernhard
Klee, conductor. Sony SK 53960.
Concertofor Bassoon and Low Strings (1975). Harri Ahmas (bassoon),
Lahti Chamber Ensemble, Osmo Vanska, conductor. BIS CD-636.
CHAMBER/INSTRUMENTAL
Meditation on the Bach Chorale "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit"
(1993), for harpsichord and string quintet. Elizabeth Chojnacka
(harpsichord), Hanna Weinmeister (violin), Elvira Bekova (violin),
Marius Stravinsky (viola), Alfia Bekova (cello), Alois Posch (double
bass). BIS CD-810.
Dancer on a Tightrope(1993) for violin and piano. Gidon Kremer (violin), Vadim Sakharov (piano). BIS CD-810.
String Quartet No. 4 (1993). Kronos Quartet. Electra 79346-2.
Silenzio (1991), five pieces for bayan, vioin, and cello. Friedrich Lips
(bayan), Gidon Kremer (violin), Vladimir Tonkha (cello). BIS CD-810
Seven Words (1982), partita for cello, bayan, and strings. Vladimir
Tonkha (cello), Friedrich Lips (bayan), "Collegium Musicum" Chamber Orchestra, Timur Mynbaev, conductor. Melodiya SUCD 1000109
Rejoyce!(1981), for violin and cello. Gidon Kremer (violin); Yo-Yo Ma
(cello). CBS Records Inc., MK 44924.
Garden of Joy and Sorrows(1980), for flute, viola, and harp. Aureole
Ensemble: Laura Gilbert (flute), Mary Hammann (viola), Barbara
Allen (harp). KOCH 3-7055-2111.
String Quartets No.l (1971); No.2 (1987); No.3 (1987). Trio (1988),
for violin, viola, and cello. The Danish Quartet. CPO 999 064.
In Croce (1979), for cello and organ. Maya Beiser (cello), Dorothy
Papadakos (organ). Koch International 3-7258-2 H1.
Quartet (1977), for four flutes. Wolfgang Ritter, Bernd Osten, HansUdo Heinzmann, Susanne Barner. KOCH International GmbH 31170-2 H1.
35
Detto I (1972), for cello and chamber ensemble. Ilkka Palli (cello), Lahti
Chamber Ensemble, Osmo Vanska, conductor. BIS CD-636.
Concordanza (1971), for chamber ensemble. Lahti Chamber Ensemble,
Osmo Vanska, conductor. BIS CD-636.
Chaconne (1962); Invention (1974); Toccata-Troncata(1971); Sonata
(1965); Musical Toys(1969). Complete works for solo piano. Diane
Barker.StradivariusSTR 33393.
36
NOTES
1. Gennady Aigi (born in 1934) is considered by literary critics and

scholars to be the most original contemporary poet writing in Russian and in his native Chuvashian language. Gubaidulina, an admirer
of his poetry, used Aigi's works written in Russian in two other compositions: Roses(five romances for soprano and piano, 1972), and in
the cello concerto And: TheFestivitiesat TheirHeight (1993).
2. I have included a selected discography at the end of the interview.
3. Its population, the Tatars, are of Turkic origin, and traditionally
Muslim in religion.
4. In this genre, Gubaidulina considers the most important film scores
to be Scarecrow(directed by Rolan Bykov, Mosfilm, 1983), The University Chair (Belorusfilm, 1982), The Great Samoyed (directed by
Arkady Kordon, 1981), and The Circus Tent, based on Federico
Garcia Lorca (directed by Ida Garanina, Moscow Animated Film
Studio, 1980).
5. The first of the two San Jose interviews, entitled "'The Eucharist in
My Fantasy': Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina," is published in
Tempono. 206 (September 1998): 29-35. The second interview,
"'Hearing the Subconscious': Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina,"
appeared in Tempono. 209 (July 1999): 27-31.
6. The TwentiethCentury Musical Avant-Garde, ed. Larry Sitsky (Westport: Greenwood Publishing Group, forthcoming in 1999).
7. Saying so, Gubaidulina uses a word "new" in two contrast meanings:
"new" as an innovative system of musical means (claiming that
Bach's technological palette was not essentially new), and "new" in
the sense of "deeply original," "profound," "notably individual"
(with regard to content and meaning in Bach's music.)
8. By the term "the rhythm of the form," Gubaidulina indicates a
rhythmic and temporal proportionality between and within the
sections of a musical form. She builds proportions according to
the numbers of the Fibonacci series and/or other additiveautomorphological mathematical series (for their definition see footnote 28 below). Each of Gubaidulina's applications of this system
exploits a new constructive idea. For example, in her Stimmen...
Verstummen... (symphony in twelve movements, 1986), the odd
37
movements, representing the Eternal World and cosmic harmony,

contain the number of quarter notes corresponding with the numbers of the Fibonacci series-according to Gubaidulina's thought
that this series represents the universal and balanced law of nature.
On the contrary, the even movements contain no implications of the
Fibonacci series, since they refer to the imbalanced and imperfect
Earthly World of human beings. Gubaidulina explained further
examples of implications of different series in our second San Jose
interview, "Hearing the Subconscious," 28-29.
9. For Gubaidulina, one of crucial things in a formal aspect is the climax
areas. Their locations in the Golden Section she defines mathematically, according to the ratio between the neighboring numbers of the
Fibonacci series or another chosen series. Gubaidulina especially
mentioned that she is searching for unusual climaxes, such as a
"quiet" climax in the first movement of Tepervsegdasnega, which is a
short melodic phrase of a solo Baritone on the words "Takoi
pustoty..." ("Of Such an Emptiness..."), surrounded by two
long rests (measures 34 after rehearsal25).
10. I: prazdnestvo v razgare (The Feast Is in Full Progress), 1993, a concerto for violoncello and orchestra.
11. Alois Haba (1893-1973),
Czech composer. He began to use
music
in
Suite
his
for String Orchestra, 1917. In 1924
quarter-tone
he began to teach a course in microtonal music at the Prague Conservatory. He produced a large number of works in quarter, fifth, and
sixth tones, ranging from piano works and string quartets to operas.
Some of his works are written for special instruments, e.g., Suite for
Quarter-Tone Clarinet and Quarter-Tone Piano, 1925.
12. Ivan Vyshnegradsky(1893-1979), Russian composer. After the Revolution he settled in Paris and began working with artificial modes
including intervals raised or lowered by quarter tones. He obtained a
twenty-four-tone scale by using two or four pianos differently tuned.
13. Victor Suslin (born in 1942)-Russian composer, pianist, editor,
representative of the Moscow avant-garde. In 1979, together with
several other Soviet composers, he was publicly denounced for compositions presented in the concert cycle "Encounter with the Soviet
Union" organized by West German Radio. In 1981 Suslin emigrated
to Germany and now lives in Appen (near Hamburg), working as a
freelance composer, music editor, and lecturer at the Liibeck College
of Music.
38
14. Boleslav Leopoldovich Yavorsky(1877-1942), Russian musicologist

and pianist. In the 1910s he introduced his theory of "modal
rhythm" ("ladovyi ritm") operating with all levels of musical discourse, including melody, rhythm, harmony, and form. The central
concept of his theory is the tritone. Investigating its instability and a
strong gravitation towards stable resolution, Yavorskyconsidered the
tritone to be a unifying principle of all kinds of professional and folk
music. His theory, Yavorskybelieved, can replace the traditional theory of music. For further references, see Gordon D. McQuere's
article "The Theories of Boleslav Yavorsky"in Russian Theoretical
Thoughtin Music, ed. Gordon D. McQuere (Ann Arbor, Michigan:
UMI Research Press, 1983), 109-64.
15. Per Norgard (born in 1932), Danish composer. Studied with Holmboe at the Copenhagen Conservatory, and with Boulanger in Paris
(1956-57). He taught at the Conservatories of Odense, Copenhagen and Arhus, where in 1965 he established a compositional
school.
16. Christian Morgenstern (1871-1914) is recognized in Germany as a
classical poet of the grotesque, as a precursor of the absurdists and
surrealists. Galgenlieder, first published in 1905, got its name
because the scene of the first poem is set on a legendary hill near
Potsdam where, in former years, gallows had stood.
17. The musical setting of this poem is number 3 in Gubaidulina's cycle.
18. Cited from Christian Morgenstern, Galgenlieder, a selection, translated and with an introduction by Max E. Knight (Berkeley and Los
Angeles: University of California Press, 1963), 18.
19. Number 13 in Gubaidulina's cycle.
20. It lasts eleven measures concluding the ninth movement of the symphony. In the score, Gubaidulina provided special directions and
illustrations for a conductor on how "to organize time" in this
exceptionally long rest. The sequence of "time units" corresponds
with the numbers of the Fibonacci series: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13. For a
while, a conductor "holds" 13, and then starts moving along the
Fibonacci row in the reverse order, from 13 to 1. In Gubaidulina's
thought, the structuring of time according a Fibonacci sequence
restores a cosmic balance, which was destroyed on the Earth as the
result of an Apocalyptic cataclysm, presented in the previous, eighth
movement.
39
21. Filipp Moiseevich Herschkowits [in Russian spelling, "Gershkovich"] (1906-89) was a Romanian-born composer and extraordinary
theoretician. From 1927 to 1938 he lived in Austria, where he studied with Berg (from 1928) and Webern (from 1934). Escaping German occupation of Vienna, Herschkowits returned to Romania, and
from there immigrated to the USSR, where he spent almost half a
century, from 1939 to 1987. Living in Moscow, Herschkowits continued to develop the tradition and theory of serial composition, but
in complete intellectual isolation. Only a couple of his articles were
published by the University of Tartu. In 1987, after a long struggle
with the Soviet authorities, Herschkowits was allowed to leave the
Soviet Union and return to Austria. For the last two years of his life,
he lived in Vienna and worked at the Alban Berg Society, preparing
Berg's works for publication.
22. "Herschkowits Encountered," interview with Victor Suslin, Tempo
no. 173 (June 1990): 39-40.
23. Gubaidulina talks about a period of Stalin's repressions, which
reached their climax in 1937.
24. Gubaidulina is obviously referring to the Soviet ideological and cultural policy, under which any traces of religious philosophy and mentality in literature and art were considered "reactionary" and
unacceptable.
25. Bach, already blind, dictated this choral to his son-in-law, Altnikol, in
the beginning of July 1750, two or three weeks before his death. See
Wilibald Gurlitt, Johann Sebastian Bach: The Master and His Works
(New York:Da Capo Press, 1986), 132-33.
26. Scholars of Bach's numerology suggest that in Bach's time, games
with the numerical representation of words were in general practice.
For this purpose, each letter was provided with a number, according
to the ordinal number of this letter in Latin alphabet (that is, A = 1,
B = 2, and so forth). Using this system, Bach represented his signature by the numbers 14 (which means "Bach"), 41 ("J. S. Bach"),
and 144 ("Johann Sebastian"). These numbers are the result of summation of numerical value of letters constituting his name(s); for
example, number 14 is a sum of 2 + 1 + 3 + 8. Bach scholars seem to
be in agreement about the symbolic meaning of these numbers enciphered by Bach in his works. For further references, see Ruth Tatlow,
Bach and the Riddle of the Number Alphabet (Cambridge and New
York: Cambridge University Press, 1991); and David Humphreys,
40
TheEsotericStructure of Bach's Clavieriibung III (Cardiff: University

College Cardiff Press, 1983). Discussing Bach's "signature" numbers, Gubaidulina mentioned 14, 41, and 23.
27. All schemes are drawn by Gubaidulina except as noted.
28. The term suggests that the series is built from two initial numbers.
Each subsequent number is derived from the sum of the two previous numbers. One example of this kind of series is the Fibonacci
series, which begins with the additions of the numbers 1 and 2 (1, 2,
3, 5, 8, 13, 21, . ..). Another progression, known as Lucas's series,
begins with the addition of numbers 1 and 3 (1, 3, 4, 7, 11, 18,
29,. ..). The next progression may begin with numbers 1 and 4 (1,
The additive-automorphological principle
4, 5, 9, 14, 23,...).
the
of
possibility
building different series. Bach's "series" in
opens
the chorale "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit" begins with the
addition of the numbers 9 and 32 (Example 2).
29. As is seen from the following explanations (unfortunately, we had no
score of Bach's chorale at hand), Gubaidulina understands the term
"Bach's series" not as a row of pitches, but as a mathematical series
which regulates temporal proportions of the chorale on various
levels-such as the number of quarter notes in each section, or the
length of each melodic "statement" in any voice.
30. Valentin Silvestrov (born in 1937, in Kiev) is a prominent Ukrainian
composer. Gubaidulina refers to his work Meditatsiya for violoncello
and chamber orchestra (1972).
31. The bayan (a button accordion) is a Russian folk instrument.
32. In the cello part, an iterated C-string motive (represented by a wavy
line), is written in proportional, somewhat free rhythm. According to
Gubaidulina's description, the cello chords "cut" the texture.
33. Cited from Heinrich Schiitz, The SevenLast Wordsof Christ, in Biblical Stories,vol. 1, Kalmus Study Scores, No. 882 (New York: Edwin
F. Kalmus and Co. Inc., 1968), 78.
34. Alleluja (1990) is a seven-movement composition for mixed choir,
boy soprano, organ, and large orchestra, with color organ ad libitum. The texts are from Russian Orthodox liturgy (in Russian). On
my post-interview inquiry about a color organ, Gubaidulina
explained that the part for light was not written for any particular
"instrument." She thought about specially rigged keyboards able to
operate with rhythm and intensity of colors. The actual realization of
41
the light component may differ, depending on the parameters of the

concert hall and the equipment available.
35. Due chiefly to technical and time constraints, the visual realization
for the performance by the American Symphony Orchestra in New
York in February 1994 was severely limited.
36. Gubaidulina introduces a very interesting relationship between colors, color intensity, and musical time. She presumably means the
spectrum of visible light. At the time of our interview, she was unable
to recall the book (written in Russian) from which she borrowed her
scheme of light rays' absorption and reflection. My consultant in
physics, Professor Jose Onuchic (University of California, San
Diego), while understanding and accepting the general idea of
Gubaidulina's concept, could not refer me to a particular treatise
presenting the scheme employed by Gubaidulina. However, for general information on this issue, see Hugh D. Young and Roger A.
Freedman, University Physics, 9th Edition. Extended Version with
Modern Physics(Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Inc., 1996),
1044-45; A. L. Stanford, Jr., Foundations of Biophysics(New York,
San Francisco, London: Academic Press, 1975), 180-83; and David
Falk, Dieter Brill, and David Strik, Seeing the Light: Opticsin Nature,
Photography, Color, and Holography (John Wiley and Sons, Inc.,
1986), chapter 9.
37. To Gubaidulina's schemes, I added schemes of absorption and reflection of light rays of red, orange, and blue colors.

Sofia Gubaidulina My Desire Is Always To Rebel To Swim Against The Stream Vera Lukomsky

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Sofia Gubaidulina: "My Desire Is Always to Rebel, to Swim against the Stream!

"MY DESIRE IS ALWAYSTO REBEL,

with Sofia Gubaidulina was conducted in London in

*Sofia Gubaidulina, VeraLukomsky.

Perspectivesof New Music

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

resided in Germany in a small village near Hamburg. She is in great

Perspectivesof New Music

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

Perspectivesof New Music

in everyday life. Listening to a musical composition, like reading a book,

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

zero," which is a result of the catastrophicApocalypsedepicted in the eighth

Perspectivesof New Music

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

Perspectives of New Music

Reprinted by Permission of G. Schirmer, Inc.,

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

Perspectivesof New Music

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

We require it from a politician-a politician must be consistent-but not

Perspectivesof New Music

the number 23 means "J. S. Bach."26As far as I remember, the number

EXAMPLE 2: BACH'S "SERIES" IN THE CHORALE "VOR DEINEN THRON

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

form of Bach's piece, which is a fourfold alternation of Bach's polyphonic

EXAMPLE 3: THE TEMPORAL

IN THE BACH CHORALE

TRET ICH HIERMIT"

Perspectivesof New Music

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

~---.~, ~~ ~~rp-4 - r r2'Th

Reprinted by permission of G. Schirmer, Inc. on behalf of Musikverlage

SEVEN WORDS, VII, "VATER,

INTO THY HANDS

Perspectivesof New Music

SEVEN WORDS, I, "VATER,

SIE WISSEN NICHT, WAS SIE TUN" (FATHER, FORGIVE

In this composition the cello is thus a crucified deity. But I needed to

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

Reprinted by Permission of G. Schirmer, Inc.,

SEVEN WORDS, VI,

Perspectivesof New Music

SEVEN WORDS, VII,

INTO THY HANDS

'I)ietro ponticello ..)

Reprinted by permission of G. Schirmer, Inc.,

INTO THY HANDS

SEVEN WORDS, VII, "VATER,

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

Jesus (Tenor II)

of EdwinF. KalmusandCo., Inc.

EXAMPLE 10: H. SCHUTZ, THE SEVEN LAST WORDS33

Perspectivesof New Music

styles. For me it is not an issue of style. For example, in the Meditation on

SEVEN WORDS, I, "VATER,

SIE WISSEN NICHT,

WAS SIE TUN"

THEM; FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO)

What about Offertorium, wherethe theme of King Frederickthe Great of

An Interview with Sofia Gubaidulina

I ola con sord.

I solo con ord.

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