Air Date: 3/29/21

The Upgrade by Lifehacker

Alice Hello and welcome to The Upgrade, the podcast from the team at Lifehacker, where
we help you improve your life one week at a time. I'm Alice Bradley, editor in chief of
Lifehacker.

Jordan And I'm Jordan Calhoun, Lifehacker's deputy editor.

Alice And today we are learning how to create healthy boundaries.

Jordan We are. And we're doing so with help from therapists Nedra Glover Tawwab.

Nedra Glover Tawwab And just noticing what you're feeling. So whether that's you're
angry or upset, you're frustrated. You say something like, "Why would they do...?" All of
those things could be a potential for a new boundary.

Alice Nedra is a licensed therapist and relationship expert and now a New York Times
best-selling author. Her book is called Set Boundaries Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming
Yourself. And she joined us to talk about how to establish better boundaries for ourselves.

Jordan Alice, you and I talked about this before, but I'd love to hear again, where do you
stand on setting boundaries? How does it make you feel when you're setting boundaries
for other people? Are you able to do it effectively?

Alice I mean, I am like a little baby boundary setter. I have started in the past few years to
really even understand that I didn't have a great set of boundaries and how to kind of
establish those. And I go...I've rocketed from being like too permeable and letting
everything in to being way too harsh and cutting people out of my life completely and, you
know, just being way too strict and sort of and now I'm kind of settling somewhere in the
middle and figuring out how to do it. It's such a balance.

Jordan Do you find it to be that way for everyone, or is it like specific people in your life
where you have trouble with boundaries?

Alice I mean, I think it's my family that I really struggle with, like, you know, let people get
away with too much. The resentment builds up. And then I'm like, you're dead to me. And
they're confused. They're confused and frightened. And then I have to kind of, like, rein it
back in and be like, OK, I can't really do that. So it's...So yeah. So boundaries to me, it's
been a...It's been an ongoing struggle, but I do feel like I'm making some progress. How
about you, Jordan? I feel like you're much better at this than I am.

Jordan I mean, I don't know if better is the right word. I feel like I'm on the other side of the
seesaw where I just go straight to the—I mean, not you're dead to me, but like I, generally
speaking, am so concerned with being taken advantage of that I am ultra vigilant against
being taken advantage of or people setting expectations for me that I feel are unfair or you
know, that, yeah, someone sort of overstepping and scamming me in some way or using
me in some way. So if someone does that type of thing, I try to call it out as quickly as
possible to basically be like this doesn't fly like I remember just, I guess, having heard this
a long time ago when I was a kid and it stuck in my head that people treat you the way that
you let them treat you. And ever since I was a kid, you know, any time that I would be
bullied or be taken advantage of, I would basically try to once I got old enough, I got to the

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point and the confidence level that I would try to nip it in the bud as soon as possible,
because I know what it's like to be taken advantage of. And it sort of drives me crazy to the
point of being too harsh I think. So I think that there is...There's sort of a level of give that I
need to find. And you and I can meet in the middle where we're setting boundaries, where
it's appropriate and we're also being flexible where it's appropriate. Right?

Alice Right, right. We're going to find that happy medium somehow.

Jordan Well, we're going to find out from Nedra. But before we dive in and talk about
that...

Alice Oh, boy, here we go.

Jordan I think you have some news to share with the people.

Alice I do. This is my last episode of The Upgrade. I am leaving Lifehacker. And I'm
leaving you, Jordan, I'm sorry, I'm sorry!

Jordan The pain! The pain. Alice, when I heard this, I just laid on the ground on my rug
and stared at the ceiling and The Sound of Silence played in the background. It was just
me laying down and it was just, "hello, darkness my old friend..." That's what it was like for
about six hours. And it took a while for me to come to terms with it. I'm still not there.

Alice That was weird because it was the beginning of the day and I was like, "Jordan, we
have work we need to do...".

Jordan Jordan we have to do things that I'm like "no".

Alice You need to recover.

Jordan This is my time. You need to give me this time. And now our listeners are probably
experiencing it. Dear listeners, I can relate. I know how you feel.

Alice Well, I'm going to miss you guys, but I have no doubt that The Upgrade will continue
without me. Somehow you will muddle through.

Jordan I am absolutely devastated, but we will press on. Will it be be—I don't know if
anything can be better, sans Alice, but I will do everything that I can. So that's...We're
going to pave ourselves to a new future and we'll see how everything goes without you.

Alice Think positive.

Jordan Yeah, exactly. I'm doing my best. I'm doing my best. But we'll give you a chance to
give a more official goodbye at the end of the show to all of our listeners, who love you. In
the meantime, we shouldn't dawdle anymore before we dive in and talk about boundaries
with Nedra. So let's hop in.

Alice Great.

Alice Nedra, welcome to The Upgrade.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Thank you for having me.

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Alice So tell us before we begin, when we talk about boundaries, what, what are we
talking about?

Nedra Glover Tawwab We are talking about relationships and how we can exist in them in
a healthy way.

Alice And what does healthy boundaries look like what do unhealthy boundaries look like?

Nedra Glover Tawwab Healthy boundaries look like clearly stated or exercised behaviors.
Unhealthy boundaries look like building walls to keep people out or not telling people what
you need and assuming that they will know.

Jordan So I imagine if you have these unhealthy boundaries, like many of us do for
particular people in our lives, can you describe what it feels like to go from having
unhealthy boundaries with people and what that could do for you and what that could do
for your relationship if you make that transition to having healthy boundaries? I imagine
what most people worry about is that they'll just be ridden with guilt for or feel like they're
letting someone down for establishing those boundaries. What does it feel like to make
that transition?

Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:06:43]Well it's not always letting someone down as much as it
might be bringing them closer, because sometimes when we have unhealthy boundaries,
we start to avoid people. We start to put them in this space of I don't want this person
around, not answering their phone calls and those sorts of things. When we start to
implement boundaries, we may start to see some changes in their behavior, in the
relationship, and we're more open to being more connected to them. So it's not always this
awkwardness. It can be a situation where they come closer together. [34.5s]

Alice You talk in the book about your own struggles with boundaries and how helping that
helps—how changing that changed your life. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yeah. So my biggest issue with boundaries was dealing with the
pushback. I didn't feel necessarily bad for setting them and I thought they were OK. But
when people express not liking it or questioning it or pushing back, I was like, "Oh my
gosh, maybe I shouldn't have the boundary." And so I questioned my behaviors a lot until I
felt like, oh, like having a standard in your relationships is actually healthy. It's not me
necessarily, it's them. And also, [00:08:02]I had to learn how to execute boundaries
because I would allow things to go on for way too long. And by the time I said something, it
was aggressive. Right. And so was like the yelling of the boundary. The and they're like,
when did I do it the first time? You're like, "Eight years ago!" [Laughs] So yeah. I had to
learn how to say things in the moment. How to notice when I'm irritated by something and
expressing it then and not waiting until I'm absolutely upset about something and done
with the relationship but using boundaries as a preservation strategy. [44.5s]

Jordan What if you're on the other end of the spectrum? I worry that I have too rigid of
boundaries. Me and Alice joke about this a lot. Like we're on opposite ends of the
spectrum here. Can you have too rigid of boundaries and how could you fix that?

Nedra Glover Tawwab Absolutely. [00:09:03]I think with rigid boundaries, sometimes you
have all of these rules, like, "I don't do this with people. I only do this. People can't do this
to me. Things are like..." And it keeps you safe, you think. But it also keeps you in a bubble

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and people away from you. And it is quite healthy to have different boundaries for different
people because maybe some people don't even need the same boundaries. Or maybe
you want to be more flexible with this boundary. But if you have these hard rules of never
saying yes to certain things or never trying certain things, it may be very hard to be open to
new experiences or even finding out things that bring you pleasure in relationships that
you didn't even think about. [45.4s]

Alice So what is this look like on a practical level? Like I...If I'm trying to create better
boundaries for myself, how do I go about doing that? Do you envision a boundary? Do you
practice? Do you rehearse? How how do you do that?

Nedra Glover Tawwab Well, the rehearsal can be helpful, but I will often caution people
against it because when we talk too much about stuff and overthink it, we can easily talk
ourselves out of it because not only are we rehearsing on our side, we're rehearsing the
other person's side. And we tend to think in the worst-case scenario and then they're going
to say, and we have like these all these mean emojis. And it's like, oh, I don't know if that'll
happen. So the rehearsal, yeah it can be helpful for you getting your words out, but it can
also be very damaging in that you're thinking of this way that someone else could
potentially respond that's not true. And so I think the easiest thing to think about is to really
focus on the solution and not the problem. [00:10:55]Sometimes when we're talking about
boundaries with people we have this like this four-page letter of stuff. "And in fourth grade,
you did this and in second grade you did this, and the first time we met, this is what I didn't
like..." And really, you want to focus on the present. You want to tell them what you need,
what you want, what you expect, what you desire. They don't need the story portion of it
just yet. So before you come over, please give me a call. You don't need to give them the
whole story of, "Two weeks ago you just dropped by. I wasn't available..." all of that stuff.
That just makes it harder [36.4s] and it makes you really want to practice because now you
have all this stuff to say. And really what you want is this one thing, which is please call
before you stop.

Jordan I imagine it's based on the individual, like you had mentioned earlier, but do you
generally recommend explaining your boundaries to people when you're setting them? Or
should you set the boundary and let that stand firm on its own?

Nedra Glover Tawwab It depends how secure you are in setting boundaries, if you are a
newbie, I would say please don't explain yourself because they will likely talk you out of
your boundary. If you are very practiced, you could probably say something and then give
an explanation. When you're uncomfortable setting boundaries, people can say about two
or three things that you're like, "OK, maybe my boundary is silly."

Jordan You were right. Yeah, that was my fault. What was I thinking?

Nedra Glover Tawwab You were right. Too far, too far. Yeah, yeah. So you don't want to
give too much explanation when you're new because you may lack the confidence to really
stand in the thing you're saying. So if you are practiced and you feel comfortable doing
this, then yes, you can give again a small explanation. Don't give too much because you
don't want people to have space to challenge what might be safe for you.

Alice I think part of the practice is even recognizing when your own boundaries have been
violated and if you're new to this, you may not even be aware of it, you might just feel kind
of vaguely resentful. How do you become more aware?

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Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:13:05]I think vague resentment is a wonderful place to start
because that is a feeling. Like you feel something and just noticing what you're feeling. So
whether that's you're angry or upset, you're frustrated. You say something like "Why would
they do...?" All of those things could be the potential for a new boundary. Don't let those
things slide and give them another opportunity. It sounds like there is something that you
prefer instead of what has happened. So discover what that thing is. [34.0s] And again,
that one sentence communication. "The other day you called me and I was in a grocery
store and you started unloading. So it would be really helpful if you asked me something
like, 'Are you prepared to talk right now?' That way I can make sure I'm in the right space
to talk to you about really deep issues."

Jordan Where do our boundary problems begin in the first place? Is there a certain age
range or a certain relationship with our parents or siblings or something like that where
we're learning this skill primarily, or is it something...? I doubt it's something that's just
innate in us.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Well, I'm a therapist and you know what all therapists say, right?

Jordan I mean, it's got to be the mom, right?

Nedra Glover Tawwab Childhood. [Laughter].

Jordan Just blame the mom. That's what I do with my problems. [Laughter]

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yeah, "You're the reason I can't drive, mom! Even though I'm 40,
but..." [Laughter] Yeah, so I'm not trying to say it's parents, I think it's just adults in general
who shape us. They kind of teach us how to or not have boundaries. And it starts by adults
telling us this isn't nice to say you can't do this, you can't do that. You're not full, eat some
more. All of these things that teach you to bypass what you are actually feeling within your
body, teaching you to bypass your intuition of what feels right and wrong, having—being
forced to hug someone when you're really like no I'm actually uncomfortable. I don't want
my aunt to kiss me on the face like all of these things where kids are put in these situations
and now we have adults where it's like, well, how could we tell someone not to kiss me on
a face? It's like, because it feels gross to you and it makes you feel uncomfortable. So is it
OK to say I prefer hugs instead of like kisses? Or can we shake hands instead of hugging
or let's do our bump wearing it like elbows? It's OK to say these things, but I think in
childhood, not just your parents, we're not going to blame everything on the parents, but
adults, in general, are really shaping that perspective. This is how a child should be
obedient and behave. And some of those very natural instincts are really shut down
because it doesn't work for the environment or the people in it.

Alice You talk in the book about doing this with your own daughter and how you
recognized she was uncomfortable around a certain person. So you made sure she didn't
have to be around that person. Or, you know, if your child doesn't want to necessarily be
kissed, you can express that to your family members in a way that respects the child's
boundaries.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yes. So we were...When she was an infant, almost, I was going to
the gym after I had her and she was a pretty nice baby. She'd go to most people, but it was
this one person in particular. It would be about fifteen minutes and they'd come get me out
of class. "She's crying, she's crying." And so she did this a few times and I said, "This is so
weird because everyone else, like, she's fine for the hour that I'm in is class." And I tried to

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talk to the lady. She said, "I don't know what is all the kids love me," and I said "Well my
daughter doesn't." And she's like, "I don't know what it is." And so I started to call the gym
before I would go and I would say, "Hey, is so-and-so there?" And I would kind of cater my
workout around this person not being in the child care because my daughter didn't like her.
I don't know why. It could have been a perfume. Could have been a strong cuddle, I don't
know. But I just knew that her behavior was different with this person. And she's a baby.
She can't articulate what's happening. But I trusted that she felt something because it was
out of character for her.

Alice And how old was she? Just out of curiosity.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Maybe about four, four months, three or four months.

Alice Wow.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yeah.

Alice Wow. So it really can start that young that you're really honoring their boundaries.
That's amazing.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yeah, and it's it's I'll tell you, like, she literally, "Hey, Alice wants to
hold you," and she'd just sit there and she'd be cool. So she was crying. I'm like, "oh,
what's going on here?" You know? And not forcing a person into that situation because
there's no reason that I can't take you at this time or there's no reason that we can't modify
this in some way where you feel safe and comfortable.

Jordan I'm thinking of the type of situation now where you make a commitment, you have
some type of obligation that you say yes to, you agree to, and then you resent it
afterwards. Is that the type of problem that you have to mitigate on the front end, like not
putting yourself in that situation or other things that you could do? Is it OK to change, you
know, change that commitment after the fact? Because now after you agreed to this thing,
you resent that you don't want to do it anymore and you can establish that boundary later
on. And I'm thinking about this specifically in the context of a personal thing that I—a
situation that I've set myself up in. And I imagine a lot of people have as well, is that I've
told no fewer than a million people during this pandemic, that like once it's over, that I
would visit them or I would see them or, you know, you make all these plans for what you
would do when the world opens back up, there's no way I'm going to make good on those.
Like there's no way that I'm going to visit the number of people who I promised to visit or
follow through on a number of plans that I promised that I would follow through with. What
does someone do in that situation where you start to feel anxious about promises that you
made that you can no longer keep?

Nedra Glover Tawwab I think it's OK to back out.

Jordan Yeah.

Nedra Glover Tawwab And I'm saying that from a mental health perspective, I know—.

Jordan That's what I'm telling people, by the way. I'm gonna be like, "Nedra said...It's best
for me if I do not..."

Alice That's it.

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Nedra Glover Tawwab You can blame it on me. I'm fine with that. But from a mental
health perspective...I say this a lot. Like I'm fine with people quitting stuff and I know "you
can't quit," but from a mental health perspective, I would rather you be mentally well than
forcing yourself to do something that it seems like your spirit and energy is not aligned with
at this time. And so if that means backing out of something because you really can't do
what you already overcommitted, I think you have to back out of it because I'm all about
preventing anxiety, preventing depression, and a beautiful way to prevent stuff is
sometimes to quit. To to keep ourselves well, and I know for you know, for the people on
the opposite end of that, it's like, "Oh my gosh. But you said this thing." And maybe this is
a time where you do want to explain that at the beginning of the pandemic, as most of us
may have, say it like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And now that I have this
freedom, I actually don't want to do all of those things that I actually like where I am. And
I'll stay here. And it's OK to say that.

Alice And is there anything worse than hanging out with somebody and realizing they
don't they don't want to be there or they just don't have it in them to be there? And on the
flip side, there's something so wonderful about having a friend who does have really
healthy boundaries and you know that when they're with you, they really want to hang out
with you or they're free to say they don't they don't have it in them. And maybe another
time.

Nedra Glover Tawwab I've certainly wanted to back out of something and didn't and end
up doing it in the entire time I'm thinking like, when is this over? What time is it? How many
more minutes do I have? Why did I do this? What? You know, just all of those questions.
And it really could have been prevented by saying, "Hey, I know I said that this could
happen, but actually I could not do this because in that moment I was more anxious about
it than then I needed to be." I could have gotten out of it. So, you know, at any point I think
you can shift the boundary just because you tolerate it, something sometimes in
relationships, like sometimes we'll say, well, I've had this relationship for X amount of time
and it's never been an issue that my partner eats off my plate. But actually, I think I don't
like it anymore. You can change it and say, "Hey, we can't share food off the same plate."
You can do that.

Alice Can you talk a little bit about codependency? I think it's something a lot of people
struggle with. A lot of other people kind of don't even know what the word means. They're
probably dealing with it as well and they're not even aware of it.

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yeah, so codependency is entangling your emotions and your life
into the life of someone else's and really being in the same space as them and rescuing
them as they are going through dysfunctional behaviors.

Alice And how do you recognize that and also kind of I know this is probably a huge issue
and probably like years of therapy, but how do you get out of a codependent...?

Jordan How do you solve world hunger?

Alice Yeah.

Nedra Glover Tawwab [Laughter] Yeah. So boundaries, really, because that's what
codependency isn't. It's like we're together all the time. Whatever happens to you happens
to me. If you can't get to school today, I feel like I have to do something about it. I have to

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leave what I have to rescue you from this situation. It is really unhealthy because the
person who is benefiting the most doesn't have to really do anything because they have
this built in person to rescue them. And the person who's always rescuing is depleted
because they don't have any one to be there for them because the codependent person
typically can't do it. And so it's like this cycle of I can help you, you really can't help me.
Maybe the way you're helping me is making me feel needed. And so there are so many
things within codependency that boundaries can really assist with it. We could, we can
help people, but we have to figure out what's actually helpful and what's actually harmful to
them and was prolonging unhealthy behavior.

Jordan That might relate to my next question, so you're obviously a mental health
professional, but for a regular person who might be in a relationship with someone who's
not good at establishing boundaries, is there a way for you to help? Not you, but is there a
way for the person in that relationship to help their partner establish healthier boundaries?
And it could be perfectly fine within the relationship. But I mean, like, let's say you're dating
someone and they have very poor boundaries with their parents. And their parents tell
them what to do. And there's all of this sort of turmoil that ends up obviously spilling into
your relationship. How can you help another person or is it possible to help another person
to establish those boundaries? Or is that something that that person needs to have the
motivation to solve themselves?

Nedra Glover Tawwab This is always tough because I get so many questions about
mother in laws. And so, you know, you can have boundaries with your partner and some of
those boundaries could be around how they engage with their family and you. So you can
say, I recognize there are some challenges that you have with your family, and it seems to
impact your mood. I think it would be healthy for you to speak to a therapist to work
through those things with your family. So your boundary could be you need to go to
therapy for this relationship with us to be healthy. And we're not always entangled with
your family issues. Sometimes you can set boundaries with the in-laws. You can do that
with your partner's family. [00:26:02]The challenge with relationships, you know family
relationships, is your partner have had these relationships for years before you were in
their life, and they may have certain roles in the family that they cannot see. But you
walking into it, you're like, oh, my gosh, what is this going on here? But they may not see
that because they are so in it. So if you really want to help them first understand that it's
not going to be easy for them to get out of this, even if it's unhealthy. Two, be gentle with
them and be patient. Three, be delicate in what you say and how you say it. And four, don't
be the therapist. And that's why I recommend sending them some referrals or suggesting
some places for them to go to talk to the family stuff, because you don't want to become
the person who's managing the family issues because your partner will start to see you as,
"Oh, you don't like my family. Oh, you want me to do the..." And it's like, no, I see that your
sister is really taking advantage of you and that's hard to watch. And so to protect your
relationship, sometimes call in an expert. I'm going to be with I suggest if you're having
financial issues, call an accountant. Don't work that out with your partner. You don't want to
create more of an issue. Call an expert. [84.7s]

Alice Sometimes even just pointing the stuff out can be so potent, you know, saying to
somebody, "Wow, you really get mad when your mom calls at 11:00 p.m., even though you
keep asking her not to call." Like, that's such a it's such a simple thing, but it can really
resonate, I think, sometimes...Jordan. [Laughter] So one of the points you make in the
book that I think is really valuable is that sometimes setting boundaries doesn't feel good. I
think some of us feel like I'm going to set boundaries and I'm going to cure everything and

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it's going to everything's going to be better. So my not feeling great, but setting this
boundary means something's wrong. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nedra Glover Tawwab [00:28:06]Discomfort is a part of the process. And I think we feel
like I'm not good at boundaries unless I can do it and not feel anything. And we are
humans and we still feel bad for other people because we know how the boundary might
impact them. We know that they may be sad by this thing is so discomfort may be a part of
our process. It doesn't mean that you should stop and not set a boundary, but just know
that when you're doing something, you might feel a little guilty, you might feel a little sad or
remorse. It doesn't mean that you're doing a bad thing. [36.9s]

Jordan Is something a boundary problem, if you don't mind it? You know, I imagine
there's, you know, people who might feel resentment or might feel the sense of obligation,
but don't realize that they feel that resentment or that sense of obligation. I guess it's
almost maybe impossible to recognize that if you don't know it at the time. But you know
what I'm asking?

Nedra Glover Tawwab Yeah I would say, no it's kind of like kids sleeping in the beds.
Some parents don't mind it and some do. They have a very clear boundary of kids cannot
sleep in the bed. And other people are like, I don't really care. So I don't think it's like a
universal rule or practice. If it doesn't bother you, then it is not your boundary. Like all of
our boundaries can be different. And that's why I think in relationships, people may have
boundaries with you that you don't necessarily have with them because it's not things that
you particularly care about. And that's OK.

Alice Nedra, thank you so much. This has really been great.

Jordan Absolutely amazing. Thanks for taking the time with us.

Nedra Glover Tawwab You're welcome. Thank you.

Jordan Now it's time for our upgrade of the week where we talk about that one thing that's
making a big difference in our lives. Alice, what is your upgrade this week?

Alice So, Jordan, as you know, I had eye surgery. Oh, God, I guess it was like a month
ago now. I had to get retinal surgery. And part of that surgery...well the surgery itself was
kind of no big deal. But the recovery involved, as you know, because I complained
endlessly about it, I had to be face down for ten days.

Jordan Which is very worthy of complaint.

Alice It was, if any time I could really indulge in some complaining. It was that. It was that
period of time.

Jordan Yeah. You earned it.

Alice But I found myself afterward being...I mean, the day that I could put my head up was
like Christmas times a million.

Jordan The sun shone in from the window. You could stand vertically.

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Alice I could stand. I could just put my head up and not have to stare at the ground all the
time and wonder who's around me. I mean, it was so it was transformative. And then I had
a problem with my vision and my vision got better. And that also made me kind of feel like,
again, like Christmas morning. And I guess it's made me kind of rethink gratitude in a way.
And I think this is something that we've all experienced, like you had the flu or a bad
sickness and then, like, had them lifted from you. You're like, "I'm alive!!" So I've been kind
of experiencing this every day where I've got this, I've got a gas bubble that's in my eye
still, so I can still see it but it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So every day it's
like a little less of a burden, a little bit less of a burden. And I'm kind of trying to figure out, I
guess it's not so much of an upgrade as like a proposed upgrade for the future is trying to
figure out how to carry this forward into my life, this feeling of like that I'm grateful for things
I didn't even know I could be grateful for. Like I can, that I can see your face through a
weird mirror or I can just watch TV or I can lean back.

Jordan Mm hmm.

Alice I haven't, I'm not able to lie on my back for another month. So the day comes when I
can do that, that's going to be exciting. Like—.

Jordan Yeah. You try to capture that feeling of—.

Alice Yeah.

Jordan Not taking things for granted. Yeah.

Alice Yeah. So I, you know, I, I am starting to kind of journal out like some of these things,
like things you just don't think about at all and without being too corny, like I'm you know,
I'm grateful. I'm grateful for you Jordan and I'm grateful for The Upgrade.

Jordan Thank you, Alice.

Alice Just in time for it to be...

Jordan Likewise.

Alice ...Over. But yeah, that's my, that's my upgrade. I'm grateful for seeing things.

Jordan That's such a good one. I've wanted for a long time to keep a more consistent
gratitude journal by doing that happiness practice, where you write down three things that
you're grateful for that day and it just sort of trains your mind into looking for things. You
start to you know when I, when I did do it. I didn't keep it up for very long. I did it for, you
know, maybe ten to fifteen days before I fell off the wagon and never recovered. But you
really do start to in your day look for those things that you're going to write down later. And
it does sort of train you to look for things to be grateful about, even if it's small things. You
know studies have shown how much that supports an individual's happiness. And
anecdotally, I can confirm that that's the case. So I should probably get back into doing the
same type of thing that you're trying.

Alice My problem was I always did it in the morning, so my three—I was always like, "I'm
grateful for coffee and my bed and the ability to go back to sleep," and then I would go
back to sleep.

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Jordan Same thing every day.

Alice Just every day. I just all I could think about. Jordan, what's your upgrade this week?

Jordan My upgrade this week comes courtesy of our food writer, Claire Lower, who told
me when I was asking her about where to store certain fruits and vegetables, I told her
how I currently do it, which is to just put them all in the same fruit basket. And she was like,
"That's chemical warfare." Apparently, you should separate certain things that will emit
gases that will ripen other fruits and vegetables faster. So, for example, for people who
didn't know this, I just learned this recently, you shouldn't keep your onions and potatoes in
the same place because the onions will make the potatoes spud a whole lot faster than
they otherwise would. And this was revolutionary to me because I would keep—I showed
her a picture of my fruit basket and she's like, "Wait, there's there's onions, there's
potatoes, there's oranges, there's an avocado in there. There's bananas..." Like,
everything was just all clustered together. And she's like, "No, this is...That's a disaster."
So my approach is to separate your fruits and vegetables to the extent that you can if you
have the space for it, because all of the gases are different depending on fruits and
vegetables you have, and certain ones mix well with others and certain ones will cause
other things to ripen faster. So if you have a good understanding of which ones cause your
produce to ripen too fast, then you can mitigate that problem and end up with potatoes that
aren't spudding crazy fast or bananas that don't go rotten after a day or two, or avocados
that don't turn brown two days after you buy them.

Alice It's kind of something that we should learn like right off the bat. Like you graduate
from college and they should say, like, here's what to do with your produce and none of us
learn it until it's too late, right?

Jordan Absolutely. That and like splitting a check with your friends, there's certain
practical things that we just never learn in school. And I—or at least not in my school. I
definitely did not learn that. Instead, I learned about Christopher Columbus sailing the blue
sea or something.

Alice Yeah, I learned a lot about Chaucer and nothing about, you know, how my toaster
from setting on fire. Yeah.

Jordan I memorized Robert Frost poems.

Alice Like a fool.

Jordan Like an idiot. What is stopping through the woods on a snowy evening doing for
me today, Alice?

Alice What is it doing for my rotting avocados?

Jordan Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Alice And that's our show, The Upgrade is produced by Micaela Heck and mixed by Brad
Fisher.

Jordan Please rate us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a review
too. Actually, to hell with that. Don't leave a review. Just leave Alice a kind note. I will read
that on air. I will read that to Alice before she goes to bed at night. Just say nice things

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about Alice on the Internet so that I can read them and we can all miss her together. You
can also reach us by calling at three, four, seven six eight seven eight one zero nine and
leaving a voicemail. Or you can write those love notes to Alice at Upgrade at Lifehacker
dot com.

Alice You can also find us on Twitter, at Lifehacker, on Instagram and Lifehacker dot com,
all one word, and on Facebook, at Facebook, dot com slash Lifehacker. You can also, by
the way, find me on Twitter at Finslippy. Sign up for Lifehacker's daily newsletter full of tips
and tricks and hacks at Lifehacker dot com slash newsletter. And you can find show notes
for this and every episode of The Upgrade at Lifehacker dot com slash the show. So now,
Jordan, apparently I've got to do a more formal goodbye?

Jordan You got to, you got to do this, mostly for me because I don't want this to end. Our
listeners don't want this to end. So I'm just going to try to keep you on this call for as long
as possible.

Alice Goodbye forever. I'm a ghost now. I'll still be around.

Jordan What's a good goodbye song? There's like "Goodbye To You" by Michelle Branch.

Alice Yes, but you know my favorite song.

Jordan Oh, tell me.

Alice Which I mention now for legal purposes, is Vitamin C "Graduation" slash—

Jordan Friends Forever.

Alice Friends Forever, of course.

Jordan Friends forever.

Alice God.

Jordan That's a classic.

Alice What could better sum up my time here than Vitamin C?

Jordan Man, what do you, what do you reflect on when you think of your time on The
Upgrade?

Alice Ah, friendship.

Jordan [Laughter] Friendship, of course. Of course.

Alice Friendship and learning.

Jordan The time that you spent with Melissa and I.

Alice Yeah.

Jordan And a rotating team of guests.

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Alice Those rotating guests.

Jordan Just...

Alice My favorite guests. My least favorite guests. We're not going to name those.

Jordan Nobody. Nobody needs no names.

Alice I actually, I don't think that we've had any real duds.

Jordan Nothing but A plus guests.

Alice Yeah.

Jordan Definitely have been fortunate. We've definitely been fortunate. And thinking of
countless upgrades of the week. You don't have to think of upgrade of the week every
week. What are you going to do with all that knowledge?

Alice I'm just going to, I'm just going to let the upgrades I've already done marinate in my
life and continue to improve myself.

Jordan You at least have to post them on Twitter.

Alice I don't know. Yeah.

Jordan That's where people can find the upgrades of the week.

Alice I'll post them on Twitter.

Jordan You'll just have to you'll have to put them on Twitter now.

Alice OK, OK, I'll do it. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, Jordan. Thank you, Micaela. I'll miss
you guys.

Jordan And I'm sure our listeners will miss you, too.

[Alice Upgrade montage].

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