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Carla Krzywicki Transcript
Carla Krzywicki Transcript
7 WASHINGTON, D.C.
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17 Washington, D.C.
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20 The interview in the above matter was held via Zoom, commencing at 3:01 p.m.
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2 Appearances:
9 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL
10 INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL
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16 1702 S St. NW
2 - So we are on the record at 3:01 p.m., and, as you just heard, this is
4 Good afternoon. This is the transcribed interview of Ms. Carla -- and, actually,
5 can you pronounce your last name for me? I want to make sure I get it right.
7 - Krzywicki. Okay.
9 Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol
11 At this time, I'd ask the witness to please state your full name and then spell your
13 Ms. Krzywicki. Carla Jean Krzywicki, and my last name is spelled K-r-z-y-w-i-c-k-i.
14 - Thank you.
15 And this will be a staff-led interview. Members of the committee may join at
16 some point and ask a question. I don't really expect that to happen, but it's possible.
19 the select committee. And then also in the room today is also investigative
20 counsel.
21 And then, at this time, counsel, could you please state your name for the record?
23 - Thankyou.
24 So, Carla, there is an official reporter transcribing this interview. Please wait
25 until I finish my questions before you start your response, and then I'll also try to wait
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1 until you finish your answer before I start my next question. Because it's obviously hard
2 to record two people talking at the same time, so we'll try to be nice to Nicole and Katy
3 today.
4 And then, also, relatedly, they can't record nonverbal responses, so just make sure
5 you use "yes" or "no" instead of, like, a head shake or a nod. Does that make sense?
7 - Okay. Great.
8 And then we ask that you provide complete answers just to the best of your
9 recollection. If the question's not clear, ask me to rephrase it, or you could ask for
10 clarification. And then, if you don't know the answer, that's totally fine. Just say, I
11 don't know.
15 So, first, I just want to make sure you understand that this is a voluntary interview.
16 If at any time you'd like to stop speaking with us, that's your choice.
17 Similarly, at any point if you need to discuss something with your attorney in
18 private, just let us know, and we'll be happy to take a break that so you can have that
22 - Okay. Great.
23 And then, second, this interview is not under oath, but because you're speaking to
24 congressional investigators, you are obligated under Federal law to tell the truth, the
1 And so it's deliberately unlawful to provide false information to Congress for this
2 interview. Providing false information could result in criminal penalties for false
3 statements.
6 Okay.
7 Third, you are not obligated to keep the fact of this interview or what we discuss
8 confidential. You're free to tell whomever you may wish that you met with us, and then
9 that includes a prosecutor or your judge, or you could tell nobody at all. So that's totally
10 your decision.
11 And then, fourth, I just want to make sure that you understand that the select
13 involvement with prosecutions, and the DOJ is really not a partner of the select
15 The select committee's not a party to your criminal case and is not agreeing to
16 submit anything on your behalf to the judge, nor can we make any representation
17 whether, if you tell the judge that you met us, that the judge will be more favorable to
21 - Okay.
22 And then, fifth, we've agreed with your attorney that we're not going to share
23 what you've said with the DOJ prior to your sentencing, but there are a couple possible
25 If you told us about evidence of a crime that we thought law enforcement was
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1 unaware of, then that might trigger an obligation to share that information with DOJ.
2 Or if we have reason to believe that you told us something that wasn't true during this
4 So as long as we stay away from those things, then we're good today. Does that
5 make sense?
7 - Okay.
8 Also, I'll just add that, if you tell the judge that you met us, please understand that
9 that might prompt questions from the judge about what you said and whether it's
10 consistent with your prior statements and acceptance of responsibility, and if the judge
11 starts asking questions, we may be asked to respond and divulge what you said during
13 And then just as we go through today, I mean, hopefully we can get you out of
14 here pretty quickly, but we might go for an hour or two. So if you need a break at some
15 point, feel free to just let me know, and we can take that kind of break. Or, like I said, if
16 you need to talk to Ms. Shaner for anything, just let us know.
20 - Okay. Great.
21 EXAMINATION
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23 Q Then let's just start with some, sort of, background questions. Can you tell
25 A Canterbury, Connecticut.
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5 November.
6 Q Okay. Great.
7 And then could you just give us a quick run-through of your educational
8 background?
10 And then for high school I went to Norwich Technical High School, where I took electrical.
15 A Psychology.
16 Q Awesome.
17 And let's see. Do you do any other work other than just schoolwork?
18 A Like, employment?
20 A No. I'm employed by Wendy's as a manager, and that's the only thing I do.
21 Q Okay. Great.
22 Okay. Let's kind of go back to 2020, a little bit before the general election, in the,
23 kind of, October-November timeframe. And I just want to know in general, how would
25 A I would say I didn't know enough about politics to really pick a side, I would
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1 say, so not very well. I wasn't very, like, educated enough to know enough about it.
2 Q Okay. And was that sort of the same throughout Trump's Presidency the
3 prior 8 years? Would you say you were politically active or just kind of how you
4 described?
6 conservative household, so I was around that, so I would say I wouldn't really know any
7 better.
8 If I were to say, at the time, I thought more conservative. But once I, like, grew
9 up and got into, like, the real world, I realized I'm not really -- I was not -- I did not know
11 Q Okay.
12 And then I'll note Ms. Shaner corrected me for the record. That is good. It was
14 Okay. Let's talk a little bit about, kind of, at that time, news sources that you
17 Q Okay. What would you say your main, sort of, sources of news were at that
18 time?
19 A At the time, I was still a teenager, so, like, just social media in general, like,
20 Facebook, lnstagram.
21 Q Okay. Did you and your mom share a lot of information about news or
23 A I was raised in her household, so she -- she would watch the news.
24 wouldn't really pay attention. It would be, like, at dinnertime. That was the only time
25 if I did see any news. And it was usually the local news. And she would watch FOX
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1 News. So that's, in my opinion, not necessarily the best at two sides. So that was -- so
2 sometimes we would talk about, like, what was going on in the world, not necessarily,
5 And how about using social media to get news? Did you do that around that
6 time?
9 A Around -- I used Facebook but not necessarily for, like, news purposes.
10 Q Okay. Gotcha.
11 I'm going to run through just a couple kinds of sources, common sources of news
12 through social media that people use, and let me know if you used any of these or if you,
13 kind of, sought out news about, you know, the election in particular or news in general
16 A No.
20 A No.
22 A I use TikTok, but it's not -- it's definitely not for news.
24 A No.
25 Q Okay.
10
1 So, then, it sounds like in general -- and, sorry, not to belabor the point,
2 but -- there wasn't really any particular source of news that you were looking to, and you
3 weren't really, kind of, like, on a day-to-day basis actively seeking out news information.
4 A Correct.
5 Q Okay.
6 Did you follow President Trump on any social media at that time?
8 Q I'm sorry, what was that last one? It cut out. I didn't hear you.
10 Q Facebook and?
11 A Maybe Twitter.
12 Q Okay. Gotcha. Sorry, the audio just cut out for a second. I didn't hear
14 Okay. And then do you remember any, kind of, thoughts you had about his
15 social media presence or anything? Any particular instances of anything that he said
17 A Not really. Just that it seemed very silly, some of the things that he would
19 Q Yeah.
20 How about right around the general election? Do you remember anything that
21 President Trump said that sticks out in your mind that he might've said about the
22 election?
24 Q Okay.
25 All right. We can move on from, kind of, the -- oh, - do you have a
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1 question?
4 Ms. Krzywicki. Yes, I had friends that would post about politics.
6 Ms. Krzywicki. Not really. It was, like, both sides. It was just a broad range of
9 BY-
10 Q And then I'll just say, you know, we'll have lots of really specific questions,
11 obviously, going through this interview today. And, really, our intention just to kind of is
12 to understand your mindset going into that day. None of this is to say that anything was
13 wrong or right to do, but really we just kind of want your perspective on what brought
15 So I hope you don't take our, you know, pointed questions to mean anything other
17 A Okay.
18 Q Let's talk a little bit about, kind of, what you thought of the general
19 election -- so that's the election in November -- and, kind of, how your feelings were
20 immediately after. Did you think that the election was stolen from former President
21 Trump?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay. You didn't. Did friends or family that you were speaking to have
24 that feeling?
25 A Some did.
12
3 Q Or, did you guys have conversations where she said that she thought the
5 A No. We didn't really talk politics because sometimes we didn't really see
6 eye to eye. So it wasn't something -- like, a conversation happened and ended very
7 shortly.
9 Let's see. Were there any sorts of rallies or, kind of, political events that you
12 Q Okay.
14 What were those conversations like with your mom? Because I think you
15 mentioned earlier that you sort of grew up sometimes watching FOX News. Did the
17 Ms. Krzywicki. Kind of. As I grew up, I realized, like, some of the things -- like, I
18 don't agree with, like, a lot of older generations', like, that kind of mindset, if you
19 understand, like, what I'm getting at. Like, just, like, women's rights, gay rights kind of
21 So it kind of -- like, if I, like, say, like, women's right to choose, like, abortion and
22 stuff like that, like, my mom definitely is pro-life, where I'm, like, pro-choice. And just
24 Okay. And did the 2020 election, did you feel that heated that sort
25 of tension up?
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3 BY-
4 Q So I know we talked about your political activity, kind of, before the general
5 election. I guess I'll just ask more broadly -- I know that's -- about specific rallies or
6 events. But did your political perspective change at all or did you kind of have a
7 different thought about politics or the politics that were going on after the general
10 because I was really young when that had happened -- still am. But definitely growing
11 up and realizing a lot more things, I would say they had changed --
12 Q I think you cut out a little bit at the end. You said "I would say," and then I
16 A Yes.
19 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. Gotcha.
23 Let's see. Let's just talk about, kind of, how you ended up in D.C. and what
25 Can you just tell me generally -- you know, it sounds like you weren't too
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1 politically involved and weren't upset in general about the outcome of the election. So
3 A So my mom was supposed to go to see the President speak with her older
4 friends. My mom's older; she's 57 now. And her friend are even older. So they were
5 going to take, I believe it was a bus trip from Norwich, Connecticut, down to D.C. And
6 her friends didn't want to sit on the bus trip for that long, being older, so she had asked
7 me if I would go.
8 And my mom in
9 general. So I had said, well, I hope she's not gonna go alone. And so she had asked me
10 if I would go with her, and I said, "Well, we could watch it on TV," kind of thing. But she
11 really wanted to go see, since it would be the last time he would speak as President.
12 So I ended up going with her to make sure she would be okay. Because in any
13 kind -- she's been to rallies before. She's rallied her whole life. And she'll -
15 happen. So I pretty much just went with her to make sure she'd be okay.
16 Q Understood.
17 And what did you think January 6th was going to be like when you were, kind
18 of -- before you were heading down? What did you think the events were going to be
19 like?
20 A I thought they'd be, like, just him speaking and it'd be like his typical rallies.
21 Like, when I was in high school, my mom had taken me to when he speaks at stadiums
22 and places like that. And it's just, like, the atmosphere is all these people getting along
23 and cheering him on, listening to him speak. And I thought it would be like that.
24 Q Okay. Great.
1 BY-
8 Q Okay. Did you think you supported President Trump at that time?
11 BY
12 Q And so when was it that -- do you know when it was that your mom decided
15 Q Okay. And then how far in advance was it that you decided?
17 Q Okay. Gotcha.
18 Do you know how your mom met the group of people that she was going to go on
19 the bus with or that you all ended up going on the bus with?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay. Did you ever see or did she ever show -- did your mom ever show
25 A No.
16
1 Q Okay.
2 - Did anyone on the bus ever mention what the Facebook group was?
7 - Okay. So, in general, you knew it was a Facebook group, but you
8 didn't really know what the group was or, kind of, what the discussion on the Facebook
11 - Okay.
12 - And then, sorry, one more. Did you guys have to pay for this bus, or
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Q
BY- Okay. Thank you.
And, then, I take it, since you didn't seem particularly interested in the rallies
20 yourself, you didn't do any promoting of the events of January 6th or any rallies, did you,
22 A No.
23 Q Okay.
24 Once you decided to go to D.C. for January 6th, then did you start following any
25 accounts or looking up any news about what January 6th would be like?
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2 Q Okay. So really it was just kind of a trip to go down with your mom
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Q
Q
BY-
Okay.
Did you have any friends that were talking about January 6th on social
8 media?
10 Q Okay. So no one else that you know of in the area was planning to go on
11 this bus?
12 A Correct.
15 But not up until that. Afterwards, yes, but not leading up to it.
16 Q__Okay.
17 For your battery, do you want to take a minute to plug it in, just in case?
18 A I don't know if my phone will stay -- when I get the next warning, I'll plug it
19 in.
20 Q Okay.
21
22
23 Q
BY-
I think that's all I have for now, -
Okay. And, then, I take it the answer is probably "no," but were you aware
24 of any other buses or groups or, kind of, yeah, groups of folks that were also travelling to
25 Washington, D.C.?
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2 Q Okay.
3 Let's talk about the trip down to D.C. Where did you meet this bus or pick up the
4 bus?
6 Q Okay. And then what was the plan for traveling down? You were
7 just -- oh, what day -- sorry -- what day was that, that you picked up the bus?
9 Q Okay. And so can you tell me just kind of what you remember of the plan
11 A I believe it was that we were going to get the bus super-early in the morning,
12 and then it would, I believe, along the way in Connecticut pick more people up, and then
14 Q Okay.
15 And then how about when you got on the bus? Did you learn anything about,
16 kind of, the other people that were on it? Did you learn anything about the Facebook
17 group? What was, kind of, the -- for lack of a better term, what was the vibe?
19 Q Okay.
20 A I recognized one woman. I couldn't place, like, where I knew her from.
22 Q Okay. This woman that you thought you might know, did you figure out
1 A No.
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Got it.
5 And, then, you didn't know anybody else on the bus other than your mom?
7 Q Right. Understood.
8 And, then, so what -- I understand something happened on the way down. The
Q Okay. And so, then, I take it that caused, sort of, some delay in getting into
12 D.C.?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. So about what time did you end up getting into D.C.?
16 Q Okay.
17 And, then, why don't you just tell me about that? Tell me about arriving in D.C.
19 A We had parked. I don't know any of, like, what anything's called there,
20 but --
21 Q Sure.
22 A -- we had parked. We got off the bus. And then I remember walking to,
23 like, a big open field, and there was, like, a statue. And then I believe the Capitol was
24 right there in front of us. And then we kind of just made our way up there.
1 - Sure.
2 BY-
3 Q So, on the bus, you obviously missed the speech. Were people on the bus
5 A Yeah
7 A
12 Q Do you have any memory of what people were, like, talking about then?
14 Q Okay. But they weren't talking specifics about what President Trump was
15 saying?
18 BY-
19 Q Do you remember hearing any of the speech while you were on the bus?
21 phone. But wasn't really paying attention. I was just looking at everything else
22 around.
23 Q Okay. So you don't really remember any specific parts of the speech or
25 A No.
21
1 Q Okay. Do you remember just, like, a general feeling? Did it make you
2 excited? And I'm talking about his speech in particular. Did it make you excited? You
3 know, did he convince you about his thoughts on the election? Any thoughts you
5 A In the nicest way to put it, I didn't really care too much to listen to it.
7 Okay. So, then -- let's see. So you get off the bus. And then, kind of, what's
8 everybody on the bus doing, or what's the general plan from there?
9 A I remember everybody getting off the bus and then saying that we were
10 going to meet back at a certain point. I don't remember. And then most people
11 just -- I don't remember, like, watching where everybody went, but they kind of just went.
12 I think most of the people started walking towards the Capitol. And some people just
14 Q Okay. And by "open field area," is that, like, The Mall? Do you know what
18 Okay. And, then, I take it that you and your mother joined some of the people
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. And what did you think about what you saw around this time? So,
22 as you were walking from the bus and then just start to walk towards the Capitol, tell me
24 A I remember just thinking, wow, this is a lot of people, a lot of people just
25 dressed in, like, red, white, and blue or Trump attire, stuff like that.
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1 Q Uh-huh. Okay. And how about people dressed up in, like, military gear?
3 A Not necessarily. I do remember seeing some people dressed like that, and I
6 A Just because, like, why would you need to dress up in, like, military gear with
7 helmets? Like, that was -- what would you -- why would you wear that?
9 A Kind of, but not really, because I thought maybe some people are just very
10 patriotic and wanted to dress like that. I didn't think of what it could've been used for at
11 the time.
12 Q Right. Like, at that time, it seemed more of, like, a costume than it was --
13 A Yes.
14 Q -- anything. Okay.
15 Okay. And then tell me a little about, kind of, as you start to walk closer and
17 A I remember the closer we got, seeing a lot of people were just, like -- it was
18 like when you're at a concert and they're, like, packed like sardines kind of thing. And
19 then I remember seeing a lot of people waving Trump flags, American flags, a few
20 different kinds of flags, not necessarily, like, country type of flags but, like, just wording
21 on the flags.
22 Q Right. Right.
23 And then what did you have with you as you were walking? Did you guys bring
25 A My mom had a sign. I didn't have a sign. I think I just wore a fanny pack
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1 that had -- I wear contacts, so I brought an extra pair -- ChapStick, my license, and I think
2 my debit card.
3 Q Okay. How about, were you wearing, like, a Trump T-shirt, or what
7 Q Okay.
8 And, then, about how long did it take you to walk from wherever the bus was
9 parked to where it started to get crowded, like you were talking about kind of being at a
10 concert?
12 Q Okay. And, then, as you're doing that walk, I assume you have -- do you
13 have a smartphone?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. And were you watching any videos or were you doing anything on
18 Q Okay. So, then, I take it you weren't, kind of, like, following anybody and
19 their activity on the 6th, like, watching livestreams or anything like that?
20 A No.
21 Q Okay. Okay.
22
23
24
Okay.
Q
BY-
And then - - - go ahead.
Yeah, I just wanted to ask, how did this -- did this feel different than the
1 A Kind of. I could -- it felt like a lot of people were more angry at this one.
5 A Not really. There was plenty of people chanting, too, that you couldn't
7 Q Did you ever see people dressed in military fatigues or similar attire at
10 Q Do you remember why you and your mom decided to follow that crowd
12 A Not really.
13 Q So you didn't know -- you didn't know where you were going?
14 A I personally didn't.
15 Q Did your mom say, "We're going to walk over to the Capitol"?
16 A She didn't say it. I just kind of, like, followed her.
17 Q Right. But did she seem to -- was there any sense to you -- like, did you
19 A No, not really. It was kind of, like, a mentality, just follow where everybody
20 else is.
21
22
23
Q
Q
BY-
Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
25 A I think -- it was on the -- if you were looking at the building, it was on the left
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2 Q Okay. So you were pretty close to the Capitol Building at that point where
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And then why don't you -- can you walk me through, kind of, what
7 A I remember that the closer that we had gotten, I remember just, like, looking
8 behind me and seeing so many people. And even if we tried to leave, it was like we
10 And then I remember, I think people started throwing, like, water bottles. And
11 then there were more police presence on the Capitol. And then I remember a few
12 people having, like, a medical emergency that were brought through the crowd.
13 And then people started throwing more things. I think it was, like, tear gas being
14 thrown into the crowd. And that just made people even more upset. You would think
15 that would, like, make people disperse. Instead, people got even more upset, started
17 I remember being pushed forward and not being able to, like, leave. So me and
19 And I remember, like, guards or police officers coming out, dressed in, like -- with
20 shields and, like, trying to push people back. And me and my mom were kind of stuck,
22 Q Okay.
23 Let's go back a little bit. - w a s asking about why you decided to follow, kind
24 of, the crowd. Did you remember your mom ever talking about wanting to go to the
1 A No.
2 Q Okay.
3 And then how about, when you got there on the bus and you see people walking
4 there, was your mom interested in going to the Capitol, or it just seemed like she was
7 Q Okay.
8 Okay. So, then, you're following the crowd, and it gets more and more crowded,
9 and you start to get kind of pushed toward the front. And you mentioned that tear gas
10 was coming in too. Were you guys getting exposed to that tear gas?
12 Q Okay. And did you try to leave at that point and you just couldn't because
14 A Yes. We tried to leave, I believe, two or three times, and there were just so
16 I remember, like, the people that were having medical emergencies, like, the
17 people that were carrying them were literally screaming, like, "She's having a heart
18 attack, you need to move," and it was just so hard for them to get through.
19 Q Yeah.
20 What were you and your mom talking about as this all was going on?
21 A I don't think we really talked. I just remember her not letting go of, like, my
23 Q Yeah. Maybe this sounds like a silly question or too simple of a question,
25 A Yes.
27
1 Q -- to be in that crowd?
2 A Definitely.
3 Q Yeah. Were you afraid that you were going to get separated from your
4 mom?
6 Q Gotcha.
7 Okay. So you continued to get pushed closer and closer towards the front. And
8 then I think you said you started to see police that were in, kind of, like, gear or riot gear
9 that were pushing the crowd back. And you kept getting, kind of, caught in between
12 A I remember the people -- there was probably, like, four lines of people
13 between us, but I think I was standing on something, so I could see above. And I
14 remember watching people push past them, try to take the shields away. I think it was
15 bike racks that were, like, in between, and people were, like, picking them up and trying
17 BY-
18 Q Speaking of those bike racks, you said you were getting pushed, right? So
19 you couldn't really move. But did you climb up a bike rack?
20 A Correct. I did.
22 A That was probably after, like, 30 minutes of still pushing, the people pushing
23 back. And then, at some point, I remember that the police officers had left or just, like,
24 moved down. And people were still, like, upset at that point, that I remember -- I'm not
25 sure if the bike rack was already put up at this point, but people started to try to climb up
28
1 the building. And I remember watching someone get sprayed in the face with
3 And at that point, I think because so many people had already gone up there and
4 there were so many people pushing forward, that that's when me and my mom had
7 A Well, we couldn't really turn around. It was just so many people pushing.
10 behind us, there were just, as far as the eye could see, just people, like, just a giant
11 crowd.
12 Q Right. But, you know, even in a giant crowd, sometimes you can push
13 through. So I'm just trying to think, what was your sense of what would happen if you
16 Q So was it, you got -- was it something like, you were just reacting?
18
19
20
Q
Q
BY-
Okay. Thank you.
So the crowds continue to push, and you're kind of stuck there for you said
23 Q Okay. But, at some point, you see the bike rack. Did you also say, though,
24 that you had just seen somebody try to climb up that way and up the scaffolding and then
1 A I'm not sure if they had climbed up the bike rack, but they had somehow
3 Q Oh, okay. Okay. So that was a different route. So, on a different route,
4 up scaffolding, you saw somebody get sprayed. And then you and your mom saw
5 another route that was these bike racks that were stacked up.
6 A I think it was the same way, because it was the same area that we had gone.
7 I just don't know if they used the bike rack to get up there.
8 Q Gotcha. Okay.
9 Then, I guess, was it worrying you that you guys were heading towards the place
11 A Yes. I think, because there was so much adrenaline with everyone, that it
12 was terrifying, but at the same time, like, you're not really thinking of a whole lot.
13 Q Okay. So that looked like, kind of, the easiest route or the only place that
15 And so tell me, kind of, how that happens. You start to climb the bike rack, and
18 waiting and grabbing her hand or something like that to help her up. And then I
19 remember going in, like, the scaffolding and up the stairs. And then we were at the very
21 And then I remember, like, there was a whole crowd in front of us. And, at that
22 point, if it was either -- we had gone through a door, and the doors had already been
23 opened or broken. And I remember, that's when we had initially gone in.
24 Q Okay. So about how long did it take you -- once you started climbing the
25 bike rack and then get through the scaffolding and go up the stairs, how long did that
30
1 take you?
3 Q Okay. And do you know about what time it is at this point as you're
6 Q Okay.
7 You know, I know you had seen the guy get sprayed, and, obviously, there was
8 tear gas going off. Did you have any sense that you shouldn't be entering those doors?
10 A I think, in the moment, it was just more scary and adrenaline, than to really
12 Q Uh-huh. Gotcha.
13 And so you go into the doors. Did you see any fighting or any violence around
15 A No. I remember that the doors were already opened, and then walking
16 inside, and it was just people just walking around, like, just calmly walking. It was very
17 surprising. And I remember walking around with my mom just in, like, big open areas,
18 seeing people just walk around like it was just a normal day.
19
20
21
Q
Q
BY-
Okay.
How did you get into the Capitol, again? Did you go through a window, or
24 Q Through a door? What did the door look like when you got up there?
25 A I can't remember. I just remember doors being open and just walking
31
4 Q So I'll just represent to you that you entered about 9 minutes after the first
5 people broke in. So I'm just -- what did you see? Did you -- in the distance, when
7 A I don't think so. I think that whatever had been broken had already been
9 Q Did you notice the mood of the people around the door?
13 Q Excited and happy at the same time. So, like, if you had happiness and was
14 excited -- excitement it could be either happiness or, like, a combination of those two.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay.
17 Go a h e a d , _
18 BY-
20 A A little worried. Just not really letting go of my mom or letting her out of
21 my sight. And I'm sure she -- she was doing the same, I'm sure.
22 Q Yeah. Did --
23 A I -- sorry.
25 A I was just kind of, like, letting her lead the way, kind of thing, and just going
32
2 Q Okay.
3 What was your -- to the extent you could kind of understand it or see it in your
5 A I'm not quite sure. She usually just has a very serious face, so it's kind of
7 Q As you guys are kind of getting pushed towards the building and then come
8 up and get to the doors and enter, were you guys joining in any of the chanting and
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay.
14 A I remember her saying, though, that she didn't really want to carry it, but she
15 was afraid to let it go, because she could see, like, some people just seemed a little too
16 crazy, and she didn't want it to be used at some sort of weapon for anyone. So she just
19
20
21
-
Q
BY- Can I ask-- oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Do you remember her using the sign at all to cheer or was she, like, raising it
24 Q Okay.
25 Do you know why she -- it just seems a little odd that she would bring the sign,
33
1 and, obviously, she maybe agreed with whatever was on the sign and wanted to show it
2 at that time, but now I understand you're saying that she wasn't really showing the sign
3 and, you know, maybe wasn't, like, hoisting it in the air proudly.
6 Q Yeah. Why did she bring the sign if she didn't want to use it?
7 A I think that she had thought it would be more of like the rallies that we had
8 been to previous. And my mom, all throughout her life -- like, if her job -- like, they
9 would go on strike and they'd have rallies and stuff, she's always made signs that have
10 just something witty to say on them. So, to me, it wasn't anything that seemed
12 Q Understood.
13 A I think just because, like, signs -- you pay attention to somebody that has a
14 sign, and it makes a point. So I think that's why she did it.
15 BY-
16 Q Can I return to your point you made about your mom? She was worried
17 that if she dropped it, someone could use it as a weapon. But you said everyone
19 A I think up to the point, like, when people were getting tear gassed and angry
20 and pushing, like, that part. But not when we had gone into the building at first. It
21 was very calm, watching people walk around. Further into it, we realized there were
25 believe, and I remember hearing a female officer say, there's a shooter, someone's
34
2 think -- because, hearing that, people were, like, pushing people out of the way, trying to
3 leave.
4 We got closer to the door to leave, and I remember hearing somebody say there
5 was a bomb. And I remember, like, me and my mom running back, like, not really
6 knowing where to go, didn't know where we were, how to get out, and just people, like,
7 just kind of going crazy, hearing that kind of thing, and just everyone for themselves, it
8 seemed like.
9 Q But you didn't hear the shooting; you just heard an officer say it?
10 A Correct.
16 Q So, reading your statement of the offense, which goes along with the guilty
17 plea, it doesn't say you were downstairs, but it does say you proceeded into the Capitol
18 Crypt.
19 So the crypt is -- and 1111 can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's a room
20 that is circular, with statues sort of around it. Do you remember being in a room like
21 that?
22 A Not really.
24 A Yes.
2 were kind of standing back and, like, watching a crowd of people go up to them and
3 saying, like, they wanted to go in. And I remember the police officer saying, if you go
4 farther than this, you will be arrested. And I remember me and my mom just standing
6 And I remember, I think one guy got a little too close, and I can't remember if the
7 police officer had pushed him back or what had happened, but I think at some point the
8 guy had sprayed the police officer in the face with something. And that's when people
9 just -- like, the police officer started getting the guy. The people were trying to push
11 And, at that point, my mom -- since they -- it was almost like everyone started
12 running. They had knocked into my mom. She had fell down. And that's when we
13 tried to get out. And I remember, walking back, that's when we had heard the police
14 officer say that someone had been shot. Then trying to leave and hearing, oh, there's a
16 Q Okay. So it's very fast-paced. But it's fair to say that in around the same
17 time period as when you saw people physically and probably violently interacting with the
18 police is about when you heard that there was a shooting too?
20 Q Okay. And do you remember what was going through your head?
22 This is terrifying."
23 Q Okay.
24 Go ahead, -
25 - No, I was just actually thinking, how's your battery doing? Do you
36
1 want to take a couple-minute break, and you can you plug your phone in?
5 And you can feel free to mute your video and turn your video off during that time
8 - Yep.
9 [Recess.]
37
2 [4:03 p.m.]
4 BY
5 Q So, Carla, I was just going to try one more time. - h a d described to
6 you the crypt. Do you remember being in a room -- it's the room that has all the
7 columns. Like, you might've had to, like, go through a couple different columns. Does
10 Q Okay.
11 And so you spent some time there, and you're walking around. What
12 eventually -- and you might've started to talk about this, but what eventually led you to
14 A Watching the police officers, like, fight with the crowd, and then watching
15 the guy pepper spray or whatever he sprayed in the cop's face, and then watching a fight
16 break out. My mom had fallen down because someone had, like, knocked into her.
17 And then trying to leave and then hearing that somebody had been shot or there was a
18 shooting. And then still trying to leave, hearing somebody else say that there's a bomb.
20 Q Okay.
21 And then tell us about how you ended up leaving or how that worked.
22 A I believe we had left at the same door that we had come in. So we finally
23 had made it to the door, and I remember it was very packed, and people weren't really
24 moving. And I remember seeing at that point, like, recognizing, like, that the windows
25 had been broken and that, just looking around, it just looked horrible. And a lot of
38
1 people chanting.
2 And, at that point, it wasn't necessarily scary at that point. It seemed fairly
3 normal. And I think just everybody else around us, it was -- I don't want to say exciting,
5 Q How long, looking back, do you think you spent in the building, in the Capitol
6 Building?
9 Q Okay.
10 And, then, did you say when you were leaving it looked like it was more crowded
12 A Around the Capitol, yes. I didn't really look farther than that.
13 Q Okay. So just around the Capitol? How about inside the Capitol Building,
14 like, near the doors that you had entered and exited --
17 A Yes.
19 And, then, tell us a little bit about trying to leave at that point. Because,
20 obviously, you went in the doors because you felt like you couldn't go the other way, but
21 now you're exiting the doors. What are you seeing now?
23 out, and there was, like, a ramp out the door. And then I remember seeing on the left
24 side a line of police officers with, like -- with reflective gear on, I think it was. And I don't
25 remember any of them talking. They were just very straight-faced. They looked very
39
1 scared.
2 And I remember -- I think we had walked down the stairs and we were walking
3 around the building. And I remember, as we left, I remember seeing what looked
4 like -- I don't know if they were police officers or what they were, but dressed in, like, all
6 Q Okay.
7 Go ahead,_
8 BY-
11 anymore. I would say -- I don't know if this is the right word to use -- excited almost,
12 just that we were out and that I could tell there wasn't really any threat anymore.
13 Q At that point, did you feel you had done anything wrong or illegal?
14 A I -- not really. I knew that it was wrong, yes. I wasn't sure -- because
15 in -- I had thought that since the doors were open -- and this may make me sound very
16 stupid, but I thought, with the doors being open and that there were police officers there,
17 nobody was really stopping us really. So I thought, oh, we're being let in, in a sense.
18 Like, I realize, no, afterwards, thinking that, what were they supposed to do?
19 They couldn't just start shooting us. That would -- that doesn't happen. So I realize
21 Q And did you end up posting anything to social media when you left?
25 Q All right. Well, I'll read to you -- this is from the statement of facts in your
40
1 case. So you said -- and I'm guessing on the time here. Whoever screenshotted it, I'll
2 represent to you, screenshotted it at 1:41 p.m., and the post was 20 hours earlier. So,
3 by my rough math, that's somewhere around 5:00 p.m. I don't know exactly what day,
5 So you post: "This is history. We do not go burning down your city and stealing
6 from your business. We come for the government officials that are ruining our country.
7 We go straight to the source. Change needs to happen. That is our house, and you
9 So, assuming that's after you left the Capitol, do you remember why you posted
10 that?
12 in a conservative household and not really knowing much else at the time, just, like, what
13 I had heard and seen -- and I remember, when I did watch the news, that I remember
14 seeing, like, people around the country burning down businesses, and I remember being,
15 like, told or hearing, like, my parents say, like, "Oh, that's no way to get things done."
16 And then, ironically, neither is what me and my mom had done, going in and being a part
17 of January 6th.
18 So I think just -- I think, in my head, I had thought, oh, maybe we did something.
20 Lives Matter protests or something else on the news in 2020. Is that what you think you
22 A Not necessarily Black Lives Matter, no. Because in the previous summer
23 before the election, or that year, that summer, me and my boyfriend had actually gone to
24 support Black Lives Matter. So not necessarily talking about them, necessarily, no.
25 Q But talking about violence associated with protests surrounding Black Lives --
41
2 Q Right. Okay. I'm sorry. Thank you for clarifying. I didn't want to put
4 So, comparing that to the sentence, "We come for the government officials that
5 are ruining our country," so did you think that what that sentence portrays is better than
7 A I understand now that is a very poor choice of words that can be taken in a
8 way different way than I had meant it. In my mind, it was more of, like, protesting, or,
9 like, my mom, how she goes and brings signs when she goes to rallies. I was thinking
10 more in that sense, rather than what it can be taken as, violence.
11 Q So can you just maybe clarify, then, when you said, "We come for the
13 A As in, like, protesting. As in, like, go to, like, rallies where people are at,
14 like, a capital. Like, I remember, years ago, when me and my mom had gone to Trump
15 rallies, there was one in Connecticut at, like, a convention center, where the capital -- a
16 building like that. And just, like, getting together and, like, holding signs or chanting
17 and, like, making a point. Just, like, coming together and showing, like, there's a whole
18 bunch of people that feel this way and, like, change needs to happen.
19 Q It's just a very specific verb, right, "come," after you had just --
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- gone into the Capitol. So I'm wondering if anything around you inspired
22 you to use that wording instead of the more protest-oriented language you just
23 referenced.
24 A No. It was just a poor choice of words, not really thinking of what other
1 Q Okay. Was your mom speaking in language like that after you left the
2 Capitol?
4 Q Did you hear people chanting, "You work for us," or, "This is our house"?
8 paid by taxes, and just taking it in a way that people chose -- like, they voted on their
9 position. So, in my mind, it's like, okay, you do work for us, you were put there by
10 people.
11 Q Right. But would you agree there's a difference between protest and going
13 A Yes, definitely.
14 Q Okay.
15 And I'm still trying to square -- you said you weren't politically engaged -- with this
16 post, just because of, you know, the language you used. So --
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q -- where did those ideas really come from? I'm just trying to nail that
19 down.
20 A I think the excitement of it. And I can definitely understand where you're
21 coming from. It definitely seems like a crazy Trump supporter for sure. I think just the
22 excitement of it and the adrenaline and being, like, in the moment and thinking, "Oh,
24 And then, afterwards, when I deleted it, realizing, "Wow, that was such an awful
25 decision," and all these things that are happening, like, this -- and being considered, like, a
43
1 domestic terrorist is not good, not something that I wanted to be seen as. That's for
2 sure.
3 Q Okay.
4 And the picture you posted with -- I think it's with your mother -- do you
7 Q You were outside. Yeah, I'll represent it to you, because you don't have it
8 in front of you, I just remembered. It's the two of you smiling outside the Capitol.
9 There are a couple people on the steps. It's a selfie, it looks like. So I don't know if it
11 A I believe it -- I'm not really sure, to be honest with you. I want to say it was
12 after.
13 Q Okay. So fair to say, then, that at that moment you were somewhat proud
15 A Not -- I wouldn't say proud or happy. Just the adrenaline and excitement
17 Q Okay.
19 to us how you moved away from that feeling. Because that's actually a very important
21 A Okay.
22 BY-
23 Q Yeah. Maybe we can finish just by finishing out the day, kind of, what
24 happened logistically. And then I'd like to talk a little bit about, kind of, how your
25 feelings have changed since then or allow you to explain, kind of, what you think of that
44
2 A Okay.
3 Q So, first, let's just talk about -- so you said you head out of the building, and
4 you look down the ramp, and there's some of the riot police that are there. And then
6 A I believe we -- so we came out the door and down the ramp. And then
7 when you're on the flat surface before the stairs, I think we had looked around a little bit,
8 and then I think we might've gone down the stairs and walked around the building. And
9 I remember walking around and seeing on the other side -- not the opposite side, but on
11 Q Uh-huh.
13 looked like he was hanging from something by his hands and trying to kick the other door,
15 And me and my mom just kept walking, because we were trying to find where our
17 And I remember walking and then, to the opposite side where we went into the
18 Capitol, seeing more what might've been, like, riot police dressed in, like, full gear. And I
19 think there might've been others in, like, white -- white, like, suits, almost, and then more
20 people.
21 And I think we started walking away from the Capitol Building into another, like,
22 what looked like a field. And I remember looking at the map to see, like, what street
23 was in front of us. And I remember walking down the street, and there were a whole
24 bunch of people, like, walking away or getting cars or -- I remember not seeing many
1 And then I remember walking by what -- I don't think it -- it might've been a shop
2 where they have, like, TVs in the window, and seeing the news on, and it was just all over
3 each TV. And seeing that there was, like, a lockdown of the city and that I don't think
4 vehicles were really allowed. So it made sense why we weren't seeing many vehicles.
6 And then trying to make phone calls too. I think my mom was trying to call the
7 people that might've been in charge of, like, the bus. And having to walk farther down
9 And then when we had got to where we were meeting the bus, I remember -- I
10 think it was -- we started talking to other people that were waiting for the same bus.
11 And then --
12 Q Okay.
14 And then, once we had got on the bus, I remember we had to wait because one
15 of -- I think he was an elderly man -- he ended up getting lost or stuck there. And so we
16 waited a couple extra -- I think it might've been, like, an extra 30 minutes to, like, find
17 him.
18 Q Okay.
19 Do you know about what time it was that you were leaving the Capitol area?
21 Q Okay. How about any, kind of, like, timestamps for that afternoon? Do
22 you remember a certain time and place at any point, like when you got to the bus?
24 Q Okay. And what was happening at 3 o'clock? That's when you were
2 Q Okay.
3 A -- and seeing the side of the building where people were still trying to get in,
4 and then the opposite side where I saw more police officers and people dressed in, like,
5 riot gear, and then making our way to find the bus.
6 Q Gotcha.
7 And then I know James was trying to figure out around what time you had posted
8 the Face book post, and we thought that was close to 5:00. Do you remember when you
10 A I want to say maybe we were on the bus. I'm not exactly sure though.
12 A Yes.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay.
16 And then you said -- you mentioned that, as you were walking away, you started
17 to see that what was going on at the Capitol was all over the news and it was kind of a big
18 deal. What did you think then, when you started seeing that news?
19 A At the time, I didn't really think too much about it. I thought that it was
20 very shocking at the time, but not really thinking too much of it. Just really wanting to,
23 A Just -- I think just seeing it and knowing that I was a part of it.
24 Q So the fact -- it was the fact that it was on the news and was a big deal; that
2 Q Right. Okay.
3 BY-
4 Q Sorry. I might have messed up the timing. Just to clarify, so you say you
5 were getting shocked seeing the news, and that's when you're walking to the bus?
7 Q But you think you probably posted that Facebook message on the bus?
10 A Yes. It was after we -- it was definitely after we had already came out of
11 the Capitol. That's for sure. And I want to say that I posted it on the bus coming
12 home.
13 Q Okay. So how does the shock and how you're describing the shock of being
14 involved in this, how did that play into your decision to write that Facebook post?
15 A I'm not necessarily sure. Just, like, being shocked that it was on the news
16 and something that I was a part of and seeing it, like, in real-time, being there, was
17 shocking for me. And I think, still, in my mind, I wasn't -- I didn't realize the severity of
19 Q Okay. So fair to say, the shock at that point was less about the severity of it
21 A Yes. In my mind, I don't think I knew enough about what was going on to
24 A Uh-huh.
25 BY-
48
1 Q Why don't we -- we can take this chance for you to tell us a little bit about,
2 kind of, that transition from the just general shock at the attention it got and the
3 sentiment that you expressed in your Facebook post and then what you're telling us now,
6 A Like, how I feel about, like, my post or what had happened exactly?
7 Q Let's talk about just the events. I know you've told us you feel differently
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, like you just said, you understood that entering the building -- or
12 A So I think that seeing it all over the news and then realizing that people had
13 broken into a capitol building and just hearing, like, just how much everything it cost, the
14 people that had died, and realizing being in a building that was broken into by what you
15 could call domestic terrorists and someone losing their life, is just so horrible to even
16 think that I was involved with something like that. It's a horrible feeling to know that I
17 was a part of that, that someone had lost their life because of something that I was a part
18 of.
19 Q Yeah, I understand. Thank you for sharing those feelings with us, and I'm
22 - No, but I was -- well, I guess, do you -- it sounds like you feel a little
1 BY
2 Q How about conversations with your mom, kind of, immediately after? How
3 did she feel about the events of that day? Was she, kind of, in the same state of mind as
4 you were?
6 Q Okay.
7 Let's talk about, kind of, the bus ride home. What did you guys talk about on the
9 A I don't really remember talking too much. I remember just watching, like,
10 the news on my phone about, like, what everybody else -- like, what the news was saying
12 Q Okay. And so you were just monitoring that. And what did you think of
14 A The news -- I remember watching, like, some parts of the news that -- I
15 remember -- because my boyfriend was at home watching our dogs for us. I remember
16 him texting me and being like, "Are you okay? What's going on?"
17 remember -- because I think it was his mother -- his mother was sending him news
18 articles, and I think he was forwarding them to me, and that's what I was seeing.
19 And then to go on, like, Facebook, I think I had -- I had more conservative friends
20 on there that were posting, not really supportive things about it, but more -- I would say,
21 yeah, more supportive, that they didn't really realize how bad it was either.
22 Q What sort of things did you see your friends posting that seemed
23 supportive?
25 when certain groups of people were, like, burning businesses and all those things that
50
1 were going on, and then taking a picture of just, like, the crowd that was there to see
2 President Trump at the time speak, and then saying, "This is okay, but this isn't okay,"
3 meaning the people that were -- the picture made it seem like it was, like, a peaceful
5 Q Were you seeing those posts around the same time you were making your
8 my head, oh, it wasn't really that bad, but kind of torn because I was like, well, it's all over
9 the news. But, in my mind, I was thinking, maybe we made a point, kind of thing, maybe
11 Q Right. Okay.
12 So you're seeing some of the news coverage that's obviously condemning what
13 happened that day, but then on social media you're seeing some of your friends post
14 some more supportive things and some more, kind of, like, meme-type posts.
15 When -- and you described that conflict in seeing both of those things happening
16 and not sure where you fell there. When did you, kind of, pick a side?
17 A I think it was a week after, and just realizing how bad it was and seeing
18 that -- once it kind of settled down, I want to say, and then people realized what actually
19 happened and that people had unfortunately passed away, and especially the woman
20 that had been shot inside -- like, ugh. I think -- and especially after -- after that week, it
21 was just more and more realizing just how awful it had been.
22 And then I believe it was in the summertime when the FBI had come out to
23 interview me and my mom, and realizing just how serious it was. Even though we
24 hadn't hurt anyone or vandalized anything or stole anything, we were still a part of it.
25 And I think us being, I'm sure, lesser of all the rest of the people there, still very, very
51
1 serious.
2 Q Right. Okay.
3 And, then -- so, I mean, just kind of looking back at that in general, it sounds a
4 little bit like seeing some of the consequences is a little bit what changed your mind.
5 Can you just describe generally for me, what changed your mind in the end? What
6 were, kind of, the most important things that you saw that helped change your mind?
7 A I think that seeing it more and more on the news and what it was referred to
8 as, "domestic terrorists," and ended up, like, on Facebook, especially after being arrested,
9 getting death threats and just threats in general, saying how we were domestic terrorists,
10 we deserved to rot in jail, and realizing just how people had felt about it and realizing the
11 seriousness of it. And just, especially, just being everywhere, it was everywhere,
13 Q Right. Understood.
14 How about, as you were leaving the Capitol and on the day that you were heading
15 back, or the bus ride back, do you remember any of the President's messages, kind of,
16 towards the end of the day or the end of the events at the Capitol?
17 A Not really.
18 Q Okay. Did you have any thoughts at the end of the day on January 6th or
20 A Not really. As surprising as it is, like, being there and what I had posted, I
21 didn't really care too much about what he really was saying.
23 A Slightly, yes.
24 Q Okay. Did you pay attention to any of that news or have any feelings about
25 that?
52
1 A Not really.
2 Q Okay.
3 Of the other people on the bus, do you remember talking to anybody else about
6 Q Okay. Do you know if anybody else on the bus entered the Capitol also?
8 Q Okay.
9 BY-
10 Q Were you paying attention to election fraud issues at all at that time?
11 A I don't think so. I remember sometimes my mom had talked about it, but I
15 Q Yeah. In your conversations with her in the last year, does election fraud
17 A No.
19 BY-
21 answering it. But just kind of in understanding the effects of January 6th, I'm curious,
22 has it changed you and your mom's relationship? Or what does your mom -- you and
23 your mom's relationship, how does it relate to what happened on January 6th?
24 A I think, at first, I was kind of -- I was upset with her that we had gone and
25 that I kind of just followed along. But after I had gotten over that and realized I still
53
1 chose to go with her, I still followed, I could've at any point been like, "Hey, this seems a
2 little weird," like, I just -- I still share responsibility for going and being there.
3 But, now, I just -- we don't really talk about it. Sometimes she'll try to bring it up
4 and be like, "Oh, how's it going for you?", and I just don't really -- I don't really like talking
5 about it.
6 So, overall, like, in general, our relationship is fine. I just think it has put -- it has
8 Q Right. Understood.
9 We talked about, kind of, specifically impeachment, but I'm just curious if your
10 views -- I know you said before the election and before January 6th you thought of
11 yourself as more conservative and generally supported President Trump. Has that
13 A I would say I definitely lean more to the left now. I wouldn't -- like, if the
14 election back in 2020 were to happen again, I don't think I would even vote. I don't
15 really agree with either side too much to pick one. So I would say I'm just very neutral,
18 Do you have any thoughts -- I mean, I just want to, you know, give you an
19 opportunity, if there's anything that we talked about previously or just any other
20 thoughts you have about the events of January 6th or, kind of, your experience of it and
21 the time after that you haven't had a chance to share with us, just anything else you
23 A Not that I can think of. Just that, if it were to happen again, I would've
24 stayed home for sure, definitely. That would never -- that was definitely not something I
3 Ms. Shaner, I might have some questions just, kind of, about Carla's case at the
6 - Nope.
7 - And just for the record, as it stands today, Ms. Shaner, can you just
9 Ms. Shaner. Carla entered a guilty plea, and she's completed a probation
11 - Okay.
12 Ms. Shaner. And her mother also pied guilty and is going to be sentenced after
13 Carla.
14 - Okay. Understood.
15 All right. I think, unless anybody else has anything else for the record --
17 llllwas probably going to say this, but I like to interrupt him sometimes.
18 We just want to thank you, Carla, for taking the time to talk to us. I know, on our
19 end, it can be difficult to get perspective of people who were actually there and who have
20 been charged. So we really appreciate you, you know, talking to us and explaining to us
21 what was going on that day, how you felt, how you've felt since. It's really important for
22 us to get this kind of information, so I just wanted to let you know that we appreciate it.
24 - Yeah. I'll --
25 Ms. Shaner. I --
55
1 - Oh,sorry.
2 Ms. Shaner. -- just wanted to add that, after January 6th, Carla sought some
3 treatment for anxiety and depression. And she also moved out of her mother's house
4 into her father's house. And that might've also contributed to her leftward movement.
9 right; it's probably better said on the record. Because I would definitely like to express
11 Like - said, you know, we're really just interested in getting everybody's
12 perspective and understanding, kind of, what brought people there that day and how
13 they've felt about it since. So thank you for being part of that, Carla. We very much
14 appreciate it.
16 - Okay.
1 Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee
4 I have read the foregoing _ _ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the
10 Witness Name
11
12
13
14 Date
15