1 - Trial Transcript, State v. Dassey

1 STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT MANITOWOC COUNTY
BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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PLAINTIFF, BAIL HEARING &
5 INITIAL APPEARANCE
6 vs. Case No. 06 CF 88
7 BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
8 DEFENDANT.
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DATE: MARCH 3, 2006
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BEFORE: Hon. Jerome L. Fox
12 Circuit Court Judge
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ
SPECIAL PROSECUTOR
15 On behalf of the State of Wisconsin.
16 RALPH SCZYGELSKI
Attorney at Law
17 On behalf of the Defendant.
18 BRENDAN R. DASSEY
Defendant
19 Appeared in person.
20 * * * * * * * *
21 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
22 Reported by Jennifer K. Hau, RPR
23 Official Court Reporter
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1 THE COURT: This is in the matter of the
2 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey.
3 Appearances.
4 MR. KRATZ: The State appears by Calumet
5 County District Attorney Ken Kratz. I'm
6 appearing as special prosecutor in this matter.
7 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Mr. Dassey appears with
8 Ralph Sczygelski.
9 THE COURT: Yeah. This is Case No.
10 06 CF 88. It's set today for an initial
11 appearance, uh, as well as bail, presumably. Uh,
12 Mr. Kratz.
13 MR. KRATZ: That's correct, Judge. The
14 first, uh, item of housekeeping, uh, Judge
15 Willis, uh, had signed an order upon a request to
16 District Attorney Rohrer to have me appointed in
17 this matter as special prosecutor. I have that
18 original form, Judge. I'd ask the Court to place
19 that in the file, if you will.
20 THE COURT: Go right ahead.
21 MR. KRATZ: This is the initial
22 appearance, Judge. This is a time for, um,
23 Mr. Dassey to receive the, um, original Criminal
24 Complaint. It's, uh, my understanding, based
25 upon conversations with Counsel, that he's
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1 already received a copy of the Complaint.
2 THE COURT: Is that correct, Counsel?
3 MR. SCZYGELSKI: We have, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Have you had an opportunity to
5 review it?
6 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Yes, we have, and we'll
7 waive its formal reading.
8 THE COURT: All right. Um, the next
9 matter, then, would be to set a preliminary
10 examination.
11 MR. SCZYGELSKI: We would normally, Judge.
12 My client and I are waiving that right.
13 THE COURT: You're handing me a waiver
14 form?
15 MR. SCZYGELSKI: I am, Judge.
16 THE COURT: And you went over this with
17 your client?
18 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Yes, I did.
19 THE COURT: Did he appear to understand
20 what he was waiving?
21 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Dassey, I'm going to ask
23 I'm going to show you this form. Is that your
24 signature on the front page?
25 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
3
1 THE COURT: Did you have an opportunity
2 to go over it with your lawyer?
3 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.
4 THE COURT: Did you understand it?
6 THE COURT: Do you understand that under
7 Wisconsin law you are entitled to what is called a
8 preliminary hearing?
10 THE COURT: And at that hearing, the State
11 would have to produce evidence to show that there's
12 probable cause to believe that a felony has been
13 committed and that you have committed a felony. Do
14 you understand that?
16 THE COURT: And by waiving, or giving up
17 your right to a preliminary hearing, you are, in
18 effect, relieving the State of making that proof.
19 Do you understand that?
21 THE COURT: Is it your desire to waive the
22 preliminary hearing?
24 THE COURT: Anybody promised you _anything
25 in order to get you to do that?
4
1 THE DEFENDANT: No.
2 THE COURT: Threaten you in any way?
4 THE COURT: Court is going to find that the
5 waiver of the preliminary hearing is freely and
6 voluntarily given. Uh, accordingly, the Court is
7 going to bind this defendant over for trial.
8 MR. KRATZ: Judge, uh, the State is
9 prepared this morning to file with the Court the
10 original criminal Information. This becomes the
11 official charging document, then, regarding
12 Mr. Dassey. It includes the identical charges as
13 found in the Criminal Complaint. Those including
14 party to the crime first-degree intentional
15 homicide, party to the crime mutilation of a
16 corpse, and party to the crime of first-degree
17 sexual assault. I'm providing Mr. Sczygelski a
18 copy of that Information and I'll provide the
19 Court the original, sir.
20 MR. SCZYGELSKI: I acknowledge receipt,
21 Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: You want the Information to be
23 read, Mr. Sczygelski, or are you going to waive the
24 reading of it and enter a plea?
25 MR. SCZYGELSKI: We'll waive the reading of
5
1 that, Your Honor. Um, I am concerned that once we
2 complete the arraignment that certain deadlines run.
3 As long as the Court is going to be amenable to
4 flexibility down the road regarding those deadlines,
5 such as change of venue, um, we will be willing to
6 enter a plea of not guilty to all three charges at
7 this time.
8 THE COURT: Well, we can, uh, set a formal
9 arraignment down the line some time. Uh,
10 Mr. District Attorney, any objection to doing that?
11 MR. KRATZ: Judge, uh, I have, uh, no
12 objection to Mr. Sczygelski at this time, uh, noting
13 the reservations of, uh, those, uh, statutory rights
14 that, uh, uh, need to be, uh, implicated at the time
15 of the arraignment, including substitution of, uh --
16 of Judge and others. Uh, if Mr. Sczygelski wishes,
17 then, that, uh, with the reservation of those
18 statutory rights that the matter be set for a -- a
19 continued arraignment at a future date, I have no
20 objection to that procedure.
21 MR. SCZYGELSKI: That sounds
22 THE COURT: Is that your --
23 MR. SCZYGELSKI: fine.
24 THE COURT: Is that your request,
25 Counsel?
6
1 MR. SCZYGELSKI: That's fine, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Uh, upon agreement of counsel,
3 the Court will do exactly that. We'll have a
4 continued arraignment here. Uh, it's not, uh, an
5 interminable continued arraignment, under -- uh,
6 arraignment, understand, but, uh, we're going to at
7 least, uh, do this in an effort to accommodate
8 the -- the time lines. Now, bail?
9 MR. KRATZ: Judge, we do have a, uh -- a
10 request, uh, regarding, um -- regarding bail. Uh,
11 this is a, uh -- a case, uh, that includes the,
12 um -- as, uh -- as indicated in the Complaint, uh,
13 the homicide, uh, mutilation, and sexual assault,
14 uh, of a young woman, although the defendant is a
15 16 years of age, uh, this Court understands, as does
16 Mr. Sczygelski, that there is an original adult
17 court jurisdiction, and, therefore, the same bail or
18 bond considerations as set forth in Section
19 969.01(4) apply to Mr. Dassey as would any other
20 defendant.
21 Those, in this case, uh, include the
22 nature, gravity, uh, and number of offenses. The
23 potential penalty that Mr., uh, Dassey faces,
24 which includes a potential life imprisonment, the
25 degree of violence involved, which is, uh, set
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1 out, uh, in detail in the, uh -- the Complaint,
2 as well as the character and strength, uh, of the
3 evidence, uh, presented, which includes not only
4 physical evidence but inculpatory statements
5 being made by Mr. Dassey, uh, given, uh, those
6 factors, Your Honor, uh, given the, uh, risk of
7 flight that is inherent, uh, in any, uh, case of,
8 uh, this magnitude, the State is going to request
9 cash bail in the amount of $250,000.
10 In lieu of Mr. Dassey, uh, uh, being
11 able to post, uh, the $250,000 cash bail as
12 requested by the State, uh, I am prepared, if
13 necessary, to argue pretrial detention and, um,
14 the nature and place of that detention. That's
15 all I have, Judge. Thank you.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Sczygelski.
17 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Your Honor, as my,
18 um -- As the Court, I 1 m sure, is well aware, my
19 client has cooperated with the police, and he has
20 provided a lengthy statement, which is the basis,
21 in large part, for what is in the Complaint and
22 for these charges.
23 He is a juvenile. He is a, uh,
24 sophomore at, uh, Mishicot High School. As I
25 understand it, he's a B/C student. Um, he has
8
1 never been in trouble in high school as far as I
2 know, or any type of school. He has no juvenile
3 record, whatsoever. Certainly no criminal
4 record.
5 He has indicated that -- in his
6 statement to the authorities that this was a
7 result, in large part, of being threatened by
8 Mr. Avery. That this was something that was not
9 done willingly by him.
10 Based upon those circumstances, Your
11 Honor, I think a $250,000 cash bail is excessive.
12 He does not have those means. Few high school
13 students would. I believe that a far more modest
14 bail would be appropriate. Potentially, even
15 having sign-in conditions, if necessary, to make
16 sure that there's no flight risk. Um, and that,
17 uh, that be done instead.
18 In sum, Your Honor, I believe that this
19 is a case that involves a young man who was
20 threatened by his own uncle. And because of
21 that, uh, this is not somebody who came up with
22 this horrible idea on his own. This is somebody
23 who, uh, himself, and, essentially, has been
24 victimized by Mr. Avery as well. I would ask for
25 a far more modest cash bail, if any. Thank you.
9
1 THE COURT: Response?
2 MR. KRATZ: Only, Judge, that, uh, as the
3 State, uh, perceives, and, perhaps, without surprise
4 to Mr. Sczygelski or the Court, there is only one
5 victim in this case. That's Miss Halbach. Uh,
6 Mr. Dassey, at least, has, uh, indicated, uh,
7 himself, had opportunities, uh, not only to
8 extricate himself from this situation, but to, uh,
9 assist in, uh -- in, uh, the ultimate, uh,
10 commission, uh, of this crime.
11 With that having been said, uh, the cash
12 bond that I've, uh, recommended I believe to be
13 fair under the circumstances, not excessive.
14 Would ask the Court impose same.
15 THE COURT: All right. Uh, the Court -- So
16 far as the Court knows at this stage, uh, there are
17 a number of items alleged in the Complaint. Whether
18 there was -- was threats of, uh -- of reprisals on
19 the part of another defendant here, I don't know.
20 Uh, District Attorney is correct, under Section
21 938.183, the Court has original jurisdiction -- in
22 adult court, has original jurisdiction of this
23 juvenile because the allegations relate to, uh, a
24 charge under 940.01, first degree intentional
25 homicide, uh, committed after the age of 15 years,
10
1 and, in that sense, he is to be treated as an adult.
2 There are a number of factors that the
3 Court is supposed to consider in setting bail.
4 Prominent among those factors in this case, based
5 on this very limited record, are:
6 The nature, the number of crimes, the
7 gravity of the offenses, the potential penalties
8 this defendant faces, the degree of violence
9 involved, uh, his involvement in this -- in this,
10 uh -- in these allegations, and the Court
11 believes on on all of those factors, uh, a
12 significant bail is warranted in this case, and
13 it will set it at $250,000 cash. Anything else,
14 gentlemen?
15 MR. KRATZ: Just that, uh, we schedule a
16 status conference, Judge. Or, excuse me, the
17 arraignment. I guess that's the next -- next
18 hearing, uh, to be scheduled. Uh, whether that is
19 to be done at this time or whether at a scheduling
20 or status conference so we can accomplish it at that
21 time as well.
22 THE COURT: Well, I think we have a -- we
23 have informally set a status conference, uh, couple
24 of weeks down the line prior to coming into court
25 today. Let us set the arraignment. Without
11
1 objection from either counsel, can we use that as
2 the time to set the arraignment?
3 MR. KRATZ: That would be fine, Judge.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Your Honor, the other
6 issue is that my client, um, can be either placed in
7 juvenile detention or can be placed in an adult, uh,
8 jail, um, if he cannot raise bail, which I doubt
9 that he'll be able to do. I would ask that he be
10 allowed to stay in a juvenile facility, and he would
11 like to be staying here in Manitowoc so he can be
12 close to his family.
13 THE COURT: Mr. District Attorney any --
14 MR. KRATZ: Judge, uh, as long as, uh,
15 whatever facility Mr. Dassey is placed in pretrial,
16 uh, includes a, uh -- a secure facility. Uh,
17 whether it's in, uh, Manitowoc or, uh, elsewhere,
18 uh, is something I don 1 t, uh, have an opinion about.
19 It should be -- of course be a, uh a secure
20 facility. And whether he co-mingles with, uh,
21 adults or, uh, other juvenile offenders, uh, the
22 State doesn 1 t have a position about.
23 THE COURT: The Court will order that he be
24 placed in a secure juvenile facility. Uh, I -- I'm
25 reluctant to order whether it be here in Manitowoc
12
1 or Sheboygan Counties, but it -- it -- whichever
2 place, it -- it's going to be a juvenile facility.
3 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Okay.
4 THE COURT: Anything else?
5 MR. KRATZ: No, Judge. The date of the --
6 the arraignment? The --
7 THE COURT: We were going to set it on the
8 17th.
9 MR. KRATZ: Is that it? March 17 at --
10 THE COURT: Well, no, we were going to have
11 a status conference on March 17 and set the
12 arraignment at that time.
13 MR. KRATZ: So we're not going to do the
14 arraignment on the 17th?
15 MR. SCZYGELSKI: No.
16 THE COURT: We can.
17 MR. SCZYGELSKI: I believe that may be
18 difficult for law enforcement. It will be two
19 courtrooms they'd have to secure, because you're
20 you're on Mr. Avery's case that same day.
21 MR. KRATZ: That's fine.
22 THE COURT: All right. But it will be
23 shortly thereafter.
24 MR. KRATZ: Seventeenth at one --
25 THE COURT: Fifteen.
13
1 MR. KRATZ: One-fifteen for the status.
2 That's fine, Judge. Thank you.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 {PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED.)
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1 STATE OF WISCONSIN )
)SS.
2 COUNTY OF MANITOWOC )
4 I, Jennifer K. Hau, Official Court
5 Reporter for Circuit Court Branch 3 and the State
6 of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that I reported
7 the foregoing matter and that the foregoing
8 transcript has been carefully prepared by me with
9 my computerized stenographic notes as taken by me
10 in machine shorthand, and by computer-assisted
11 transcription thereafter transcribed, and that it
12 is a true and correct transcript of the
13 proceedings had in said matter to the best of my
14 knowledge and ability.
15 Dated this 10th day of March, 2006.
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.! 1 STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT MANITOWOC COUNTY .
BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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PLAINTIFF, STATUS CONFERENCE &
5 CONTINUED ARRAIGNMENT
8 DEFENDANT.
10
DATE: MARCH 17, 2006
11
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ & JEFFREY S. FROEHLICH

District Attorney
16 NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
18 LEONARD D. KACHINSKY
Attorney at Law
Defendant
22 * * * * * * * *
1
COPY
1 THE COURT: This is the State of Wisconsin
2 vs. Brendan R. Dassey. It's 06 CF 88. Appearances,
3 please.
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, the State
5 appears by Calumet County District Attorney Ken
6 Kratz appointed as lead special prosecutor in the
7 case. Also appearing in court this afternoon are
8 Norm Gahn, Assistant District Attorney from
9 Milwaukee County, having been appointed special
10 prosecutor, and Assistant D.A. Jeff Froehlich
11 from the Calumet County D.A. 's office. Once,
12 again, part of the prosecution team.
13 THE COURT: All right. Defense?
14 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: And the defendant
15 appears personally with Attorney Len Kachinsky of
16 Appleton.
17 THE COURT: This matter was last before the
18 Court on March 3. Uh, at that time the defendant
19 made an initial appearance. He waived his right to
20 a preliminary examination. An Information was
21 filed. An arraignment was had at which the
22 defendant entered a plea of not guilty. The
23 arraignment was continued for purposes of filing
24 motions.
25 Um, we're here today, and -- and counsel
2
1 and I have had a -- a brief discussion prior to
2 appearing here today in Court. A discussion in
3 chambers. Uh, Mr. Kachinsky, since you weren't
4 here at the at the arraignment, would you like
5 to formally affirm the defendant's not guilty
6 plea?
7 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, Your
8 Honor, we would affirm a plea of not guilty.
9 THE COURT: All right. Um, the next thing
10 we need to take care of is a date for a motion that,
11 uh, the defense says it will bring on the issue of
12 suppression of any confession in this matter. Is
13 that correct?
14 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes, it is, Your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: And I have set as the date for
17 filing that motion, April 24, and there will be a
18 hearing on that motion at May 4 at 9:00 a.m. Uh,
19 counsel, you've cleared your calendars so you both
20 can be present on that date?
21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Yes, Judge.
22 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Is there anything more we need
24 take up today?
25 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, no, we filed our
3
1 motion for a change of venue as, uh, required at the
2 time of, uh, arraignment. We can have a hearing on
3 that at a later time.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. District Attorney?
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I recognize, uh,
6 and affirm the receipt of, uh, that motion for
7 change of venue, and do agree that the scheduling of
8 that motion can be put off until after the, uh,
9 suppression motion's decided.
10 THE COURT: All right. We'll then be
11 adjourned for today.
12 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge.
13 THE COURT: You're welcome.
14 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED.)
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)SS.
15 Dated this 11* day of i\eumb..«J, 2007.
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K. au, RPR
Official Court Reporter
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BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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PLAINTIFF, MOTION HEARING
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vs. Case No. 06 CF 88
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BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
7
DEFENDANT.
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10 DATE: MAY 4, 2006
11 BEFORE: Hon. Jerome L. Fox

Circuit Court Judge
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APPEARANCES:
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
14 Special Prosecutor
On behalf of the State of Wisconsin.
15
LEONARD D. KACHINSKY
16 Attorney at Law
On behalf of the Defendant.
17
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
18 Defendant
Appeared in person.
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20 * * * * * * * *
22 Reported.by Jennifer K. Hau, RPR
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1
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- - -~---...
1 INDEX
2 WITNESSES PAGE
3
MARK WIEGERT
4
Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 8-48
5
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY KACHINSKY 48-62
6
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 62-63
7
8 BARBARA JANDA
9 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KACHINSKY 64-68
10 Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 68-79
11 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KACHINSKY 79-80
12
KRIS SCHOENENBERGER-GROSS
13
Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KACHINSKY 81-91
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Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 91-99
15
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KACHINSKY 99-100
_16
17
18 EXHIBITS MARKED MOVED ADMITTED
19 1 16 16-17 17
20 2 26 28 28
21· 3 81 91 91
22 4 83 91 91
23 5 103 103 103
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2
1 THE COURT: Good morning. Uh, this is the
2 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey. It's case
3 No. 06 CF 88. Appearances, please, counsel?
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The State appears by
5 Calumet County District Attorney Ken Kratz appearing
6 as special prosecutor. Also appearing this morning
7 on behalf of the State is Tom Fallon from the
8 Department of Justice.-
9 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: And the defendant

10 appears personally with Attorney Len Kachinsky.
11 THE COURT: This matter was last in court
12 on March 17, 2006, at which time the defendant's
13 continued arraignment was concluded and he
14 reaffirmed his previously entered not guilty pleas.
15 At that time, the Court set today as the date to
16 hear any motions to suppress ~ny statements given by
17 this defendant.
18 On April 19, defendant filed a motion
19 seeking to suppress certain statements which
20 contend, uh -- he contends that these statements
21 were involuntarily given. We are here today to
22 hear that motion.
23 While this is the defendant's motion,
24 the State has the burden of proof to show by a
25 preponderance_ of the evidence that the statements
3
1 given were voluntary. The motion that's before
2 the Court today is not directly concerned with
3 the truthfulness or the falsity of the statements
4 given, but, rather, their voluntariness.
5 The Court will render a decision on this
6 motion, uh, May 12 Friday, May 12, at
7 9:00 a.m. Gentlemen, any stipulations? The
8 State?
9 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, uh, there are some
10 stipulations that, uh, have been entered into.
11 First of all, the record should reflect that prior
12 to this morning's hearing, the State had transmitted
13 to the Court, uh, several audio and videotapes.
14 They are the subject of the, uh, motions. Although
15 the State is offering the March 1, uh, admission by
16 Mr. Dassey, we've included, uh, those interviews of,
17 uh, February 27, as Mr. Kachinsky included those in,
18 uh, his motion.
19 The, uh, State, uh, is asking, uh -- and
20 I believe the Court has agreed to accept those
21 audio and, uh, videotape, uh, statements -- to
22 have them marked for purpose~ of this hearing,
23 and to be, uh, placed, uh, in the record at the
24 conclusion of the Court's, uh, decision on May 12
25 to avoid any, uh, possibility of, uh, pretrial
4
1 publicity that, uh, may adversely affect the, uh,
2 fair trial of this and a related matter.
3 It's my understanding that the Court,
4 uh, has decided to have those, uh, matters or,
5 excuse me, have those, uh, tapes sealed. That
6 is, uh, remained part of the court record;
7 however, without, uh, access to the general
8 public.
9 THE COURT: Uh, Mr. Kachinsky, is is
10 that your understanding as well?
11 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, it is, Your Honor,
12 and that applies both to, uh, the, uh -- the tapes,
13 uh, electronically preserved evidence, as well as
14 the written summaries of· that evidence which the
15 Court also has.
16 THE COURT: All right. The Court will have
17 those marked as an exhibit. It will use the cover
18 letters; one in the case of, uh -- one from the
19 district attorney -_- or one from, uh, Mr. Kratz, uh,
20 as the inventory of the exhibit, and one from you,

-21 Mr. Kachinsky, relating to the transcript of the
22 February_27 interview.
23 The Court will review those documents in
24 camera, which means in chambers. They will not
25 be part of the -- the public record. And I
5
1 believe that's the understanding we have -- have
2 here. Is that correct, gentlemen?
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That is, Judge. It's also

4 my understanding that, as we sit here this morning,
5 uh, certainly the State, uh, and the defense have
6 reviewed the contents of those audio and, uh, video,

7 uh, representations, and I understand the Court has
8 had some opportunity to review those as well.

9 THE COURT: That is correct.
10 Mr. Kachinsky, any further -- any further
11 stipulations?
12 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, that is
13 correct, also, and, uh, I think, as we discussed
14 in chambers, based on the review of those tapes,

15 uh, and the transcripts, and also consultations
16 with my client, investigator, and other
17 witnesses, uh, the question of whether or not
18 ·this is a custodial interrogation is not, uh, at
19 issue in this case. It's not a custodial, uh,
20 interrogation, although, the, uh, giving of the
21 Miranda rights, or failure to do the same during
22 portions of the, uh, statements, would be
23 relevant in determining voluntariness.
24 THE COURT: So, the the -- the parties
25 agree that this is not a cus uh, custodial
6
1 interview. And are you referring just to the
2 March 1 or both dates, February 27 and March l?
3 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Both, Your Honor.
4 Because
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: it's not

7 custodial Miranda, we're not required to, uh, nor
8 are --
9 THE COURT: So -- so, Miranda warnings are

10 not an issue, or Mirandizing is not an issue here,
11 neither is the -- the custodial or noncustodial
12 nature of the -- of the -- of th~, uh, interviews.

13 All right. Any other stipulations or anything else
14 we -- we should do here, gentlemen, before we start?
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Not before the hearing,

16 Judge, no.
17 THE COURT: From you, Mr. Kachinsky,
18 anything?
19 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: No, Your Honor, that's
20 it.
21 THE COURT: Proceed, Mr. Kratz.
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. The
23 State will call Investigator Mark Wiegert to the

24 stand.
25 THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.
7
1 ~WIEGERT,
2 called as a witness herein, having been first duly

3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
4 THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please state
5 your name and spell your last name for the record.
6 THE WITNESS: Mark Wiegert, W-i-e-g-e-r-t.

7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
9 Q Mr. Wiegert, how are you employed?

10 A I'm an investigator with the Calumet County Sheriff's
11 Department.
12 Q How long have you been a police officer?
13 A About 13-and-a-half years.
14 Q And how long have you acted in the capacity as
15 and investigator?
16 A Urn, three-and-a-half.
17 Q What are your general dutie's as a Calumet County
18 sheriff's investigator?
19 A To investigate a number of crimes, urn, including
20 misdemeanors, felonies, urn, and a range from
21 burglaries up to homicides.
22 Q Investigator Wiegert, uh, were you involved,
23 specifically, with the investigation into the
24 homicide of Teresa Halbach?
25 A Yes, I was.
8
1 Q Prior to that investigation, have you had
2 s.pecif ic training and do you have specific
3 experience in, uh, interview techniques? That

4 is, interviewing witnesses and suspects?
5 A Yes, I do. I've attended, um, numerous classes and
6 trainings on interviews and interrogations.
7 Q How was it that you became .involved in this
8 investigation?
9 A Um, I was first notified, I believe it was, on
10 November 3 of '05, of a missing person's report from
11 one of our deputies, and she requested my assistance
12 in, um, the missing person's report.
13 Urn, as time went on during that missing

14 person's report, um, after the vehicle was
15 discovered, at that point, urn, I was appointed
16 co-lead investigator along with, uh, Special
17 Agent Fassbender from the Department of Justice.
18 Urn, after the discovery of the vehicle, I was
19 requested by the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
20 Department to head up the investigation.
21 Q Now, this vehicle, _as I understand, was
22 discovered here in Manitowoc County; is that
23 correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And because of at least a perceived conflict that
9
1 the Manitowoc County Sheriff 1 s Department had,
2 your agency, the Calumet County Sheriff's
3 Department, was named as one of the lead
4 investigating agencies; is that right?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q At the scene of the recovery of the vehicle, uh,
7 as we know, at the Avery salvage property, uh,
8 did you assist in the coordination of the
9 execution of several search warrants at that
10 property?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q After coordinating that search effort, uh, were
13 you involved in directing the collection,
14 processing, uh, and later request for analysis of
15 physical evidence found upon that property?
16 A Yes, I was.
17 Q As part of this investigation, also, Investigator
18 Wiegert, were you, uh, involved in
19 decision-making regarding interviews of witnesses
20 and possible suspects, uh, regarding, uh,
21 surrounding criminal activity?
22 A Ye~.
23 Q On the 9th of November, 2005, were you involved
24 in an arrest of, and subsequent interview of, a
25 gentleman by the name of Steven Avery?
10
1 A Yes. Myself, along with Agent Fassbender.
2 Q And after that interview after that arrest
3 and, in fact, after several further days of
4 investigation, did you become aware of
5 Mr. Avery's, um, being charged with offenses,
6 including first degree intentional homicide?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Between November and February, 2006, did this
9 investigation continue?
10 A The investigation continued, um, with the numerous,
11 um, interviews during that time period. We also, urn,
12 continued with the evidence and, uh, the sending of
13 evidence to the crime lab, the analysis of evidence,
14 talking to experts about the evidence.
15 Q All right. Did you follow up interviews as well?
16 A Yes. We had numerous interviews. Follow-up
17 interviews.
18 Q Are you familiar with, uh, Brendan Dassey?
19 A Yes, I am.
20 Q Is he in the cour.troom here this morning?
21 A Yes, he's seated
22 Q Identify him for the record, please.
23 A Seated at the table to your immediate right, um,
24 wearing a green jumpsuit, uh, next to his attorney.
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, would ask that the
11
1 record reflect Mr. Dassey's identification.
2 THE COURT:- It will so reflect.
3 Q (By Attorney Kratz) In spring of, uh, 2006, were
4 you aware of Mr. Dassey's age?
5 A Yes. He would have been, uh, I believe,
6 16-years-old.
7 Q The time of the homicide of Ms. Halbach, were you
8 familiar with where Mr. Dassey lived?
9 A Yes. Um, his exact address, I believe, is 12930-A

10 Avery Road, which would be, um, directly next -to, uh,
11 the Steven Avery trailer where Steven Avery was
12 living.
13 Q Were you familiar with his relationship with
14 Mr. Avery?
15 A Yes. It would be, um, Mr. Avery's nephew.
16 Q Prior to, um, the end of February, 2006, had
17 Mr. Dassey been interviewed by any law
18 enforcement officials regarding this
19 investigation?
20 A Yes. He was interviewed, um, initially, in Marinette
21 County by a detective from Marinette County Sheriff's
2·2 Department. I believe it was Detective O'Neil. Um,
23 there was another interview done by Special Agent
24 Skorlinski and Investigator Baldwin, um, after the
25 interview in Marinette County.
12
1 Q I believe the records reflect that the Marinette
2 County interview of Mr. Dassey first occurred
3 on -- I think it's the 6th of November? On or
4 about the 6th?
5 A Yes, that 1 s correct.
6 Q And the follow-up interview with Agent Skorlinski
7 and Deputy Baldwin occurred on the 10th; is that
8 right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Both of these interviews were with Mr. Dassey and
11 law enforcement officials. Were they of the, uh,
12 subject matter, again, uh, relating to and
13 surrounding the disappearance and subsequent
14 homicide of Miss Halbach?
15 A Yes. It was -- They were done to, uh, try to gain
16 more information about that case.
17 Q On February 27, 2006, did you have occasion to
18 re-interview Mr. Dassey?
19 A Yes. Myself and, uh, Agent Fassbender did
20 re-interview Mr. Dassey on the 27th.
21 Q Where did that occur?
22 A Um, it occurred at the, uh, Mishicot High School.
23 Q And what was the purpose of that interview?
24 A It was, again, a -- a fact finding mission, um, to
25 determine what he knew about the case. We had
13
1 previously learned that he had been, um, near the
2 fire, um, where bones were discovered, so, we wanted
3 to see if he knew any other information about it at
4 that time.
5 Q Describe for the Court the difference between a
6 witness interview and a suspect interview if, in
7 fact, there are any differences?
8 A Well, there's several differences. A witness
9 interview, basically, is when a person is not in
10 custody. They're free to leave. They can stop
11 answering questions at any time.- Um, they're treated
12 as somebody who may have information about a case.
13 Or a suspect interview, sometimes they're not free to
14 go. Um, they're sometimes, um, you know more
15 information, you know that they're involved in
16 something, they're treated as that you already know
17 something has occurred and they are involved in it~
18 That's the difference between the two.
19 Q So, these are -- are different kinds of
20 interviews?
21 A Yes.
22 Q They -- They look different? They feel
23 different?
24 A Correct.
25 Q What -- what is, uh, the kind of interview you
14
1 performed with Mr. Dassey on the 27th of
2 February?
3 A It was a witness interview. Um, he was advised that

4 he did not have to answer any questions. He was
5 advised that he could leave at any time. So, it was
6 a witness interview, not a suspect interview at that
7 time.
8 Q Now, after receiving some information from
9 Mr. Dassey at the high school, was it decided to,
10 um, further, electronically, record that
11 interview?
12 A Uh, yes. Uh, it was initially audiotaped at the high
13 school, um, and after speaking with Mr. Dassey and

14 him providing us a written statement, we decided that
15 we would do a videotape interview of Mr. Dassey, at
16 which time, uh, we did contact Mr. Dassey's mother,
17 um, and she actually came to the school and rode with
18 us to the Two Rivers Police Department where a
19 videotape interview was done of Mr. Dassey.
20 Q During the course of, uh -- or prior to either of
21 -these interviews, was Mr. Dass~y provided with
22 common -- with what's commonly referred to as his
23 Miranda warnings?
24 A Um, prior to the interview that took place at the Two
25 Rivers Police Department, um, Mr. Dassey was given
15
1 his Miranda warnings. Correct.
2 Q Provided you what's been marked for
3 identification as Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell
4 us what that is, please?
5 A Yeah. It's a copy of the City of Two Rivers Police
6 Department's, uh, Miranda warnings form.
7 Q That Miranda form in -- instructs an individual,
8 uh, that you are interviewing that they have a
9 right not to speak with you. That they have a
10 right to have a lawyer present. And those other,
11 uh, rights that are enumerated on that form; is
12 that right?
13 A That's right.
14 Q And those were all read to Mr. Dassey?
15 A .Yes. Mr. Dassey, in fact, signed the, uh, Miranda
16 waiver form and also initialed where I read the
17 information to him from that form.
18 Q Mr. Dassey indicate that he was willing to speak
19 with you?
20 A Yes, he did.
21 Q Did that orally and, also, in writing, as shown
22 on Exhibit No. 1; is that correct?
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: For purposes, and to
25 complete the record in this case, Judge, I would ask
16
1 the Court receive Exhibit No. 1 at this time.
2 THE COURT: Any objection to that offer?
3 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, no, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Exhibit is received.
5 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Now, you said that not only

6 did Mr. Dassey agree to being interviewed, but a
7 discussion was held with his mother on that day;
8 is that right?
9 A Yes, we did discuss it with, uh, Brendan's mother,
10 Barb, urn, and she actually came to the school and

/>
11 rode with us down to the Two Rivers Police
12 Department.
13 Q Did she agree to allow her son to be interviewed?
14 A Yes. And we, um, actually offered for her to sit in
15 on that interview at the police department, and she
16 had told us that it was not necessary for her to do

17 that at that point.
18 Q How long did that interview take at the, uh, Two

19 Rivers Police Department?
20 A Uh, the best of my recollection, maybe an hour.
21 Somewhere in there.
22 Q What happened after the interview?
23 A Urn, Mr. Dassey and -- and Barb were transported over

24 to, actually, urn, Fox Hills Resort where we had
25 arranged for a room for them to stay for the night.
17
1 Q Tell the Judge why you thought that a hotel room
2 was necessary for Barb and her son after that
3 interview?
4 A Well, there were several reasons that we had done

5 that. Uh, number one, was to protect the integrity
6 of the investigation. We wanted to interview the
7 rest of the people who lived out on Avery Road
8 property, and we didn't want Brendan or Barb going
9 back there and giving them information about the
10 previous interview. We wanted to
11 Q Just -- not that we're going into any details
12 about the September -- excuse me -- the, uh,
13 February 27 interview, but, uh, I understand that
14 there were, uh, some specific details provided by
15 Brendan on the 27th that, um, implicated, uh,
16 Steven Avery in not only homicide, but, uh, the
17 mutilation of the corpse of Teresa Halbach; is
18 that correct?
19 A That 1 s correct. Yes.
20 Q And this was information that you had not
21 received up to that point. In other words, this
22 was new information from, uh, a witness who had
23 now come forward, uh, indicating that he actually
24 saw, uh, some specific, um, things and, uh,
25 relayed some specific evidence to you, again,
18
1 that you hadn 1 t had up to that point; is that
2 correct?
3 A Yes, that's correct.
4 Q Can you describe that, urn, newly discovered
5 evidence as significant?
6 A Very significant, yes.
7 Q And, again, significant enough that you believed
8 that Brendan shouldn't go back to where he was
9 previously living; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So this Court understands as well, prior to the
12 27th of February, had you been aware of, uh, some
13 attempts whether they were veiled or direct
14 attempts by Steven Avery and other Avery
15 members to discourage or dissuade witnesses from
16 corning forward with information?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did, uh, Brendan's mother and Brendan then agree,
19 uh, to, uh, be put up in a hotel that night?
20 A Yes, they did.
21 Q_ After Brendan's, urn, statement, and after your
22 analysis of the information that he had provided
23 to you, uh, did you, urn, review some of that
24 information and compare it to some of the
25 physical evidence that you had obtained in this

1 case?
2 A Yes.
3 Q After reviewing some of the things that Brendan
4 told you on the 27th of February, and after
5 considering some of the physical evidence, did
6 you and Investigator Fassbender decide to

7 re-interview Brendan Dassey?
8 A We did, yes.
9 Q When did that interview occur?
10 A That interview occurred on March 1 of 2006.
11 Q Could you tell the Court, please, what the
12 purpose of that interview was?
13 A Well, we had, uh -- After the initial interview that,
14 uh, Mr. Fassbender and myself conducted on Brendan,
15 there were discrepancies in his story, um, from
16 previous interviews as well, and the purpose of that
17 interview on the first, again, was to try to, um,
18 have Brendan come forth with the truth and tell us
19 exactly what he knew. It appeared that there was
20 more things that happened there than -- that Brendan,
21 um, admitted to knowing about.
22 Q Now, on the 1st of March, would you consider that
23 to still be more of a witness interview or was
24 that a suspect interview, at least when it began?
25 A The -- Based on the information that Brendan had
20
1 provided us on the 27th, we still considered him a --
2 a witness and not a suspect at that time based on the
3 information which he provided.

4 Q As I heard, uh, Investigator Wiegert, there were
5 some details he provided on the 27th that were
6 either inconsistent or what you believed were
7 implausible? Is that a fair statement?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you intend on the 1st of March to ask Brendan
10 what he had seen on or about the 31st of October?
11 A Yes. That was the purpose of talking with him.
12 Q Did you intend to ask him what he may have been
13 told by Steven Avery regarding Mr. Avery's
14 involvement in the homicide and related charges?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You had talked about attempts to dissuade
17 witnesses by Steven Avery and others. Had
18 Brendan told you at that point what direction his
19 Uncle Steven had specifically given him regarding
20 cooperation with the police?
21 A Yes. Um, when speaking with Brendan, he had told us
22 'that Steve had told him not to talk to the police.
23 Specifically, not to talk to the police.
24 Q On March 1, and prior to the interview with
25 Brendan, did you, again, have, uh, contact with
21
1 Brendan's mother, Barbara?
2 A Uh, yes, we did. Um, prior to going to the high
3 school on the 1st of March, urn, Agent Fassbender had
4 contacted Barb, um, and spoke with her and gained her
5 permission to speak with Brendan at the school, and,

6 also, to take Brendan to the Manitowoc Sheriff's
7 Department for another videotaped interview, and she
8 did give us permission to do that.
9 Q Now, is it your intent, prior to the 1st of March
10 and prior to that interview occurring, that
11 Brendan would be released or that Barb would be
12 able to take Brendan home after that interview?
13 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: I'm going to object.
14 I think the officer 1 s subjective intent at that
15 point is really not relevant.
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I -- If I can be heard,
17 Judge. Uh, the issue of whether it is a custodial
18 interrogation is a factor for this Court to
19 consider. When this officer had a conversation with
20 Barb Janda that he expected after the interview,
21 even, that Brendan was going home, uh, that's as
22 clear a indication as we can have that it was a
23 noncustodial interrogation.
24 THE COURT: Yeah. The objection is
25 overruled. You may answer.
22
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Um, in When we
2 spoke with, um, Barb on the phone, um, Agent
3 Fassbender informed her that we would bring
4 Barbara -- excuse me -- bring Brendan back to
5 her, um, after the interview was concluded.
6 Q (By Attorney Kratz) All right. So that the
7 Judge is clear, um, when walking into that
8 interview on the 1st of March, not only was this
9 a witness interview rather than a suspect
10 interview, but there were some details, and, as
11 it turns out, some things that developed through
12 this interview that surprised you regarding
13 Brendan's involvement; is that right?
14 A Oh, absolutely. Yes.
15 Q Prior to removing Brendan from school on the 1st
16 of March, did you also have contact with school
17 officials at the Mishicot High School?
18 A Yes. After speaking with Barb, um, Brendan's mother,
19 and gaining her permission, uh, we spoke with the
20 dean of students, um, and informed him of our, um,
21 decision to take Brendan to the sheriff's department
22 for the interview. And we advised the dean of
23 students at that time that, uh, we had gained
24 Brendan's mother's permission to do that.
25 Q Did you make contact, then, with Brendan on the
23
1 1st of March?
2 A Yes, we did.
3 Q Where did that happen?
4 A Um, it initially happened, um, at the high school
5 office, and we had asked Brendan at that time if he'd
6 be willing to go with us to the Manitowoc Sheriff's
7 Department to do another interview. And, again, we
B told him that it was going be a videotaped interview,
9 and he agreed to do that.
10 Q While in the, um, squad car By the way, uh,
11 whose whose vehicle did you did you take?
12 A Uh, we had taken, uh, Special Agent Fassbender's
13 unmarked, um, squad car.
14 Q All right. And we call it a squad car, but does
15 it look like a police car?
16 A No. It doesn't have any lights on it. Um, it's got
17 regular license plates on it. You can -- You get in
18 the backseat, you can get out of the backseat. The
19 doors are not secured from the inside. Um, it's just
20 like a regular car.
21 Q While in that regular car, uh, where was Brendan
22 seated?
23 A Brendan was seated in the backseat of that car.
24 Q Was Brendan handcuffed or otherwise restrained?
25 A No, he was not.
24
1 Q Were the doors locked?
2 A No, they were not.
3 Q While Brendan, uh, was with you, was he advised
4 that he was not in custody·and that he, in fact,

5 was free to leave?
6 A Yes, he was.
7 Q Were any guns brandished? In other words, did
8 you take out your weapon? Show your weapon to
9 Brendan or point your weapon at him?
10 A No. As a matter of fact, um, both my weapon, and, I
11 believe, Agent Fassbender's weapon, were covered by
12 jackets, so --
13 Q Prior to having Brendan, um, step into Special
14 Agent Fassbender's vehicle, was he frisked?
15 A No, he was not.
16 Q What is a frisk?
17 A Um, a frisk is when you pat somebody down to check
1.8 them for weapons, um, to make sure that, uh, they're
19 don 1 t have -- carrying anything that can harm either
20 the officers or the person that we're frisking. Um,
21 we generally do that when somebody's in custody.
22 Q And just so -- so we're clear as to how this
23 looks and feels differently from a suspect
24 interview, if you have a suspect and you take him
25 into custody and you 1 re putting him in the back
25
1 of your ~quad car, that person frisked?
2 A Oh, absolutely. I mean, uh, anytime you take
3 somebody into custody, it's -- it's basic police
4 work. You always frisk them. And that was not done
5 that day.
6 Q That didn't happen with Brendan.
7 A No.
8 Q But in a squad car, uh, you still advised Brendan
9 of what 1 s commonly referred to as his Miranda
10 warnings. In other words, the same warnings that
11 were provided to him on the 27th; is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes, we did, um, read him his Miranda warnings from
14 our .Miranda warnings form, um, and that was when we
15 started the audiotape also in the squad car.
16 {Exhibit No. 2 marked for identification.)
17 Q I showed you what's beeri marked for
18 identification as Exhibit No. 2. Could you tell

20 A Yes, the Calumet County Sheriff's Department Warning
21 and Waiver of Rights form.
22 Q And were those the same rights that were read to
23 Brendan on the 1st of March?
24 A Yes, they were.
25 Q That document appear to be a true and accurate
26
1 document or copy of the same document that you
2 read to Brendan on the 1st of March?
3 A Yes, it is.
4 Q Again, informing him that he didn't have to talk
5 to you, but he had the right to have a lawyer, he
6 could stop questioning any time, and those other,
7 um, commonly, uh, given Miranda warnings; is that
8 right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Brendan seemed to understand those warnings?
11 A Yes. Brendan, uh, indicated he understood them, and
12 he signed the form, and he also initialed where I
13 read to him from that form.
14 Q By the way, either on the 27th or on the 1st, did
15 Brendan express to you any difficulty in
16 understanding either his rights or the questions
17 that you were asking him?
18 A No. As a matter of fact, urn, one of the questions
19 are: Do you understand these rights? And he
20 indicated he understood them.
21 Q And, again, on Exhibit No. 2, Brendan waived
22 those rights and signed that form; is that right?
23 A Yes, he did.
24 Q He agreed to answer your questions both without
25 the assistance of an attorney, again in the squad
27
1 car, and, also -- I'm fast forwarding just a
2 little bit -- but you renewed or refreshed those

3 rights when you eventually got to the Manitowoc
4 Sheriff's Department; is that right?

5 A Yes.
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: And, again, Judge, for
7 purposes of this hearing_ and to complete the record,
8 I'm asking the Court, uh, accept Exhibit No. 2 at
9 this time.
10 THE COURT: Any objection?
11 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: No, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: The offered exhibit is
13 accepted. Received.
14 Q (By Attorney Kratz) You said that in the squad
15 car you began electronically recording your
16 interview or your meeting with Brendan; is that
17 right?
19 Q And it was audiotaped, at least in the beginning,
20 from the squad car?
21 A It was audiotaped from the point we got in the squad
22 car all the way 'til we, um, got to the sheriff's
23 department. Actually, we made a stop along the way.
24 We stopped at his house to collect some things and
25 then went from his house to the Manitowoc Sheriff's
28
1 Department. And the entire time, um, it was
2 audiotaped.
3 Q And so that the Court and everybody else is aware
4 and clear, from the time that you made contact,
5 then, with Brendan in the squad car until the
6 entire interview process was completed, this
7 whole event was electronically recorded; is that
8 right?
9 A Yes, that•s correct.
10 Q There wasn•t any break in the action, wasn't any,
11 uh, opportunity for you to discuss or to have
12 conversations with Brendan that weren 1 t
13 electronically recorded; is that right?
14 A There's one short break in it, and that is where, um,
15 we got to Mr. Dassey's house where he went into the
16 house with Agent Fassbender and retrieved some items
17 and when -- came back to the squad car. And that
18 lasted, um, probably less than a minute. That•s the
19 only time. Other than that, everything was recorded.
20 Q Okay. And so that everybody else and the Judge
21 is clear, there were -- was there any
22 interrogation, interviewing, or questioning of
23 Brendan that occurred during that time other than
24 as related to picking up -- I think, it was his
25 jeans that you were picking
29
1 A Yes.
2 Q -- up; is that right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. Now, Investigator Wiegert, while in
5 the squad car while traveling both to Brendan's
6 house and then, also, to the Manitowoc, uh,
7 Sheriff's Department, what kinds of discussions
8 and -- and, uh, conversation occurred at that
9 time?
10 A It was mostly small talk. As -- as -- What I
11 recollect, we had a snowstorm maybe a week prior to
12 that. I know we talked about the snowstorm. Uh, we
13 had talked about whether Brendan had to go to school
14 that day of the snowstorm. I remember him saying
15 that he did go to school that day. That urn, Mishicot
16 High School was not called off that day. And it was
17 small talk about things like that. Urn --
18 Q Nothing of substance? Or at least nothing as it
19 relates to this investigation --
20 A No.
21 Q -- is that correct? When you, rec -- uh -- when
22 you arrived at the, uh, Manitowoc Sheriff's
23 Department, could you tell us where you went?
24 A Um, when we arrived there, we went up into a
25 interview room on the -- I believe it's the second
30
1 floor of the sheriff's department, which is in the
2 investigator 1 s area. We went into, uh, what's
3 commonly referred to as a soft interview room.
4 Q What does that mean?
5 A Um, a soft interview room -- generally, what you'll
6 have in there is carpeting, you'll have soft
7 furniture, couches, um, soft chairs, things like
8 that. There's two different types of interview
9 rooms; there's a soft one, there's a hard one. And
10 we chose to use that soft interview room.
11 The hard one generally is -- they don't
12 have carpeting. You have hard chairs, maybe a
13 table. Urn, but we used the one with the couches
14 and carpeting in.
15 Q And, again, this was a room that was capable of,
16 uh, supporting a videotaped, uh, statement; is
17 that right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Again, Brendan was told that the entire interview
20 was going to be videotaped; is that right?
21 A Yes, he was advised of that.
22 Q How many officers were involved in this, uh,
23 interview process?
24 A Uh, during the entire, uh, interview, it was just two
25 of us. Myself and Special Agent Fassbender were the
31
1 only two that were involved in it.
2 Q So the Court is clear, these were the same two
3 officers involved in the, um, February 27
4 interview; is that correct?
6 Q Brendan had known both of you. And do you
7 believe on the 27th of February you had gained
8 some familiarity with each other? Some, at
9 least, professional rapport with him?
10 A Yes. Um-hmm.
11 Q The beginning of the interview with Brendan on
12 the 1st of March, was Brendan reminded of the
13 importance to tell the truth?
14 A Yes, he was reminded of that several times.
15 Q Was that a common, uh, strategy? Or at least is
16 that a, uh, common part of, uh, all of your
17 interviews, whether witnesses or suspects?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Seems kind of obvious. Is that the, uh, obvious
20 statement that you give? In other words, you•re
21 not hoping that you're going to be lied to; is
22 that right?
23 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Objection.
24 Argumentative.
25 THE COURT: Well, I don•t know that it's --
32
1 I don't know that it's argumentative. I don't know
2 that it's relevant either. Uh, but objection's
3 sustained.
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's fine.
5 Q (By Attorney Kratz) What was the length of the
6 interview with Brendan?
7 A Urn, on the 1st, um, the length of the interview, I
8 believe -- The interview portion, itself, where we
9 were actually interviewing, not including the breaks,
10 would have been approximately 2 hours and 52 minutes.
11 Somewhere in there. Just short of three hours.
12 Q All right. You had mentioned breaks. Were
13 breaks, uh, offered to Brendan during the course
14 of this interview process?
15 A Yes, urn, he was provided with, um, bottled water. At
16 one point he was provided with a soda. At one point,
17 um, he was offered to use the bathroom. Um, he even
18 had a sandwich at one point.
19 Q So, refreshments were not only offered but
20 received by Brendan during this interview; is
21 that right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And, then, there were also breaks. In other
24 words, it wasn•t a -- a continuous questioning
25 session; is that
33
1 A No.
2 Q -- right?
3 A No.
4 Q I think we mentioned -- at least we touched on it
5 briefly that, uh, during the initial portions_

6 of the interview, Brendan was reminded of his
7 Miranda warnings, reminded of his opportunity to
8 have an attorney present; is that right?
9 A Yes. Uh, when we first got into the interview room
10 at the sheriff's office, um, I did remind him of his
11 Miranda warnings and he agreed at that point to
12 continue talking with us.
13 Q Now, at some point during this interview process,
14 Brendan was also offered an opportunity to speak
15 with his mother; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And, in fact, that occurred during this
18 interview; didn't it?
19 A Yes, his brother -- his his mother, um, Barb, did,
20 uh, present herself at the sheriff's department, was
21 allowed to speak with Brendan.
22 Q At anytime during the course of this, uh, 2-hour
23 and 52-minute, uh, interview, were there any
24 instances of violence? In other words, was
25 Brendan ever, um, struck, or, uh, any violence
34
1 that came to Brendan during that time?
2 A No.
3 Q Any threats of violence by either you or
4 Investigator Fassbender?
5 A No.
6 Q Were there any threats at all? In other words,
7 was Brendan ever told that if you refuse to talk
8 to us, or if you don 1 t tell us what we want to
9 hear, or anything to that effect, that something
10 bad would happen to him?
11 A No.
12 Q Any forms of, uh, intimidation used with Brendan?
13 In other words, did you or Agent Fassbender ever
14 raise up out of your chair or become physically
15 intimidating towards him?
16 A No, there was nothing like that that occurred. Urn,
17 commonly in interviews you'll see the good cop/bad
18 cop roles used. And that wasn't used either. There
19 was none of that.
20 Q Good cops; right?
21 A Both good cops.
22 Q No raised voices at all? At least as far as you
23 can recall?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, obviously, those of us that, uh, have
35
1 reviewed these, um, tapes -- and -- and,
2 specifically, now, we're talking about March 1,
3 uh, videotapes, since that's the, um, interview
4 that the State's offering in the case, uh, there
5 were points when Mr. Dassey, urn, provided you
6 with information that you believed was either not

7 truthful or wasn't the whole truth. Is that a
8 fair statement?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Investigator Wiegert, I'm going to ask you to
11 draw a little bit on your experience. Especially
12 your experience in serious felony investigations.
13 Is it unusual for suspects in serious felony
14 investigations to, perhaps, minimize their
15 involvement or not tell you the complete, um,
16 story or the complete truthful story the first
17 time that you go through that version?
18 A No. Pardon me. No. It's -- it's common. And the
19 more serious -- In my experience, the more serious
20 the crime, uh, the more that it takes for them to
21 tell you that. And, um, they'll give you a lot of
22 untruths, initially. And, usually, the more serious
23 the crime, the more of that you have.
24 Q So, interviewing suspects, at least on serious
25 cases, is, uh -- it's a process. It takes a
36
1 while; is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You had talked about the more serious the crime,
4 the more reluctant suspects may be to, what 1 s
5 called, inculpate themselves. What that means is
6 that they're more reluctant to, um, confess or to
7 tell you that they were involved; is that right?
9 Q The subject matter of this interview included
10 homicide; is that right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q It included rape?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Included, uh, some very serious in fact,
15 perhaps, the most serious charges we have in the
16 state of Wisconsin; is that right?
17 A Yes, I would say so.
18 Q Investigator Wiegert, during the course -- or
19 prior to Mr. Dassey's, um, explanation to you
20 about his involvement in these crimes, his
21 involvement, uh, in the homicide and related
22 cases, were there any specific promises made to
23. him to encourage his cooperation?
24 A No, he was never promised anything.
25 Q Any promises of leniency?
37
1 A No.
2 Q Any promises of specific charges he'd be facing
3 if he made statements to you?

4 A No.
5 Q Any promises of specific sentencing
6 recommendations that the D.A.'s office might make
7 at ·the conclusion of the case?
8 A No.
9 Q You did suggest, uh, Investigator Wiegert, at one

10 point, that he'd feel better once he, uh, in
11 essence, got this story off his chest; is that
12 is that fair?
13 A That's correct. Yes.
14 Q You believe that to be a true statement?
15 A Yes.
16 Q One of the, uh, specific statements, and I know
17 that Mr. Kachinsky included this in his motion,
18 uh, was that investigators had agreed, uh, if

19 Brendan was honest, if he was cooperative and
20 truthful with you, that, uh, investigators would,
21 uh, I think,_ the term was, go to bat for him, uh,
22 during this, uh, process; is that right?
23 A Yes, we -- we did say that.
24 Q Was that a truthful statement as well?
25 A Yes, it was.
38
1 Q Were you willing to do that at the time?
2 A We were and we did.
3 Q And, in fact, just so the Court understands,
4 after Brendan, uh, indicated his involvement in
5 these cases, you and Investigator Fassbender met
6 with me; is that right?
7 A We did, yes.
8 Q To share the details of Brendan's cooperation,
9 with me?
10 A We did.
11 Q Did you advance your opinion to me that Brendan
12 should be provided with some credit, at least, as
13 compared to, perhaps, other actors in this case
14 that haven't taken as much responsibility, that
15 he shouid be given some credit for his honesty
16 and his remorse?
17 A Yes, we did.
18 Q So, the statement that we'll go to bat for you,
19 uh, not only was a true statement before the, uh,
20 statement was given but, in fact, was fulfilled-
21 or followed through by investigators; is that
22 right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Investigator Wiegert, prior to the March 1
25 interview process, uh, you had, I think,
39
1 previously mentioned that some, um, physical
2 evidence had been examined and some findings had
3 been made by some experts in the case; is that
4 right?
6 Q Had you determined, or did you have a reasonable
7 idea, of who was involved in the homicide and
8 surrounding crimes regarding Teresa Halbach?
9 A Well, based on the evidence that we had collected and
10 the evidence that we had examined, and in speaking
11 with the experts who were involved with examining
12 that evidence, we kind of had a good idea who was
13 involved and a basic idea of what had occurred, um,
14 on October 31, yes.
15 Q And just so this Court is, uh is aware, and
16 those that might be listening to it, much of the
17 physical evidence that you had obtained at that
18 point had not at that point been made public; is
19 that right?
21 Q And
22 A And some of it still hasn't been made public.
23 Q In fact, much of it hasn't yet been made public;
24 is that correct?
25 A That 1 s correct. Yes.
40
1 Q Were you aware at that time, or at least were
2 told by experts as to their opinion, as to the
3 method of homicide? That is, how -- or at least
4 partially -- how, uh, Teresa Halbach was killed?
5 A Yes. At least one of the methods, correct. Yes.
6 Q And, again, that hadn't been made public at that
7 time?
8 A No.
9 Q Were you familiar, and were you told by experts,
10 as to the place of the homicide? That is, the --
11 uh, where some specific evidence was found that
12 suggested that this crime may have been committed
13 in that location
14 A Urn, based --
15 Q -- or locations?
16 A Yes. Yes.
17 Q One of the charges that, uh, Mr. Avery faced at
18 that point included a crime that's called

19 "mutilation of a corpse." Has to do with the
20 disposal, uh, of, uh, a body after a homicide,
21 uh, and the hiding of it for purposes of

22 investigations. Were you given specific
23 information by expert witnesses, uh, as to that

24 particular crime and as to how those things may
25 have occurred?
41
1 A Yes, we were.
2 Q Now, other than the, urn, specific physical
3 evidence that you had received, were you also in
4 a position to draw inferences, not just as an
5 investigator but with the assistance of lots of
6 experts that you spoke with, uh, as to, uh, what,
7 perhaps, motivated this homicide?
8 A Uh, yes, we were.
9 Q And we know now, and I'm going to ask you, on the
10 1st of March, uh, was it an inference and a
11 theory by investigators that this was a, urn,
12 sexually-motivated homicide?
13 A Ab sol utel y ,- yes •
14 Q Consistent with that, Investigator, uh, did you
15 believe that there may be, uh, related charges or
16 related crimes that occurred, including sexual
17 assault, uh, or, uh, being, uh, held against her
18 will or other kinds of related matters?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And those were inferences. Again, not just
21 speculation by you, but consistent with the
22 physical evidence and with what you knew at the
23 time on March 1; is that right?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Finally, Investigator, did you believe that it
42
1 was possible, or even likely, that Brendan Dassey
2 had seen more than he had previously told you or
3 may, in fact, have been involved at least at some
4 portion of these particular crimes?
5 A Based on the interviews that we have done, based on
6 the, um, evidence which was collected, yes, we did
7 believe that.
8 Q I ask you these questions because during the
9 course of this interview, um, you tell Brendan,
10 or you suggest to Brendan, that, uh, we already
11 know what happened. Uh, was that an expression
12 of not only the physical evidence that you knew
13 at the time, but also these inferences,
14 connecting the dots, if you will, uh, from what,
15 uh, you'd already learned?
16 A Yes, both of those. Um, um, after reviewing and
17 the evidence which we had collected, and, again,
18 after speaking with the experts about the evidence
19 that was collected, and after they had a chance to
20 examine that evidence, along with the interviews, uh,
21 we had come up with a theory on what had taken place
22 there.
23 Q During the interview of Brendan, or if you
24 believed that Mr. Dassey was not being totally
25 honest with you, were -- was he reminded to,
43
1 uh -- to remain honest during the -- the
2 interview?
3 A Yeah, he was reminded of that several times.
4 Q Now, there were some details that Mr. Dassey
5 provided you that you didn't know. Or, I mean,
6 in all candor, as you sit here, came to somewhat
7 of a surprise to you; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Fair to say that that's purpose of interviews?

10 That is, to find stuff out that you don't know
11 yet?
12 A Absolutely. That's why we interview people.
13 Q Now, Investigator Wiegert, to ensure the ·accuracy
14 or truthfulness of information you're receiving
15 sometimes from either witnesses or suspects,
16 there's a tactic or a strategy which includes
17 providing deliberately false information. That
18 is, providing information about the case that you
19 very well know never happened. That it didn't
20 happen. Are you familiar with that strategy or
21 tactic?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Was that employed in this case?
24 A Yes, it was.
25 Q And, uh, could you describe for the Court why
44
1 that was used and, uh, what, uh, results you got
2 therefrom?
3 A Well, the reason you do things like that is to, um,
4 see if the witness is going to go along with the
5 false statements or if he's going to stop you and
6 correct you. Um, and when we did that with
7 Mr. Dassey, when we gave him false information, he
8 would deny it, stop us, and he would correct that
9 information. And that the purpose is to make sure
10 that he's not just going along with everything we're
11 saying and to see that he is telling us the truth.
12 And we did that.
13 Q So that would -- could be more specific. And at
14 least what this Court has to determine what's
15 called, uh, demonstrating a free and
16 unconstrained will. If it's -- if you tell
17 somebody something that you know didn't happen in
18 this case
19 A Uh-hum.
20 Q -- just so the Court understands, and if there's
21 anything secret about this, you had told Brendan
22 that you believed Teresa had a tattoo on her
23 stomach. Remember telling him that?
24 A We did tell him that.
25 Q You knew that not to be true; isn't that right?
45
1 A We knew that not to be true, correct.
2 Q Rather than just go along with that or just say,
3 oh, yeah, I remember that, or that happened,
4 Brendan told you, I don 1 t remember seeing that
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- isn 1 t that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q That when provided with, on a couple of
9 occasions, false statements or things that you
10 knew didn't happen, Brendan was able to resist
11 those suggestions or to resist your, um, attempts
12 to just get him to go along with stuff; is that
13 right?
14 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Objection. Leading
15 question.
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I 1 m not sure how else to
17 ask it, Judge.
18 THE COURT: Yeah. The objection is
19 sustained. Uh, it it -- it 1 s a leading question.
20 Can you reframe it in a nonleading way?
21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I can certainly try,
22 Judge.
23 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Was Mr. Dassey able, or did
24 he demonstrate the ability to resist these
25 suggestions?
46
1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q At one point you had suggested to Brendan that,
3 we know that, uh, the gun that was used in this
4 case was in your hands. Do you remember
5 suggesting that to him?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q Was he able to resist that suggestion?
8 A Yes, he did. He indicated to us that the gun was
9 never in his hand.
10 Q So, any suggestions, then, that he just-went
11 along with whatever it was you were trying to
12 tell him, or that you were putting these words in
13 his mouth, you believe that to be false; is
14 that --
15 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Objection.
16 Argumentative. Asks the witness to invade the
17 province of the Court.
18 THE COURT: Well, the questioner is, in
19 effect, testifying here. The objection is
20 sustained. Can we ~ove -- I think I see where
21 you've gone and where you're going. Can we move on?
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ: We certainly can,
23 Judge. I'd be happy to.
24 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Finally, uh, Investigator
25 Wiegert, at anytime during this interview
47
1 process, uh, did you, uh, employ overly leading
2 questions? That is, did you suggest answers
3 within your questions to Brendan?
4 A No.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: For purposes of this
6 hearing, Judge, that 1 s all the questions I have of

7 Investigator Wiegert.
8 THE COURT: All right. Cross?
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY ATTORNEY KACHINSKY:
11 Q Investigator Wiegert, uh, you're aware, as a
12 result of your professional experience, that

13. there was a decision by the Wisconsin Supreme
14 Court in July of last year that required that
15 suspect interviews of, uh, juveniles be recorded
16 electronically; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And is it correct that, uh, after that decision
19 came down, that, uh, you complied with the
20 decision and you electronically record, uh,
21 questioning of suspects when they're juveniles;
22 correct?
23 A Yes, we do.
24 Q Uh, juvenile is defined, for purposes of that
25 particular, uh, decision, as being those, uh,
48
1 under the age of 18; is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And I think -- and -- and Mr. Dassey was a -- a
4 little bit over the age of 16 at the time of the
s interviews of-February 27 and March 1, 2006; is
6 that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, it's also not required, however, that
9 interviews of juveniles, where the juvenile is
10 simply a witness to someone else committing a
11 crime, uh, be recorded; is that correct?
13 Q Uh, and, in fact, uh, if an interview of a
14 juvenile occurs, ·for example, near a crime scene,
15 or in their home, or something like that, uh, and
16 they're not, uh, a suspect in an offense, uh,
17 those typically are still not recorded; is that
18 correct?
19 A I wouldn't say typically, no. Urn, we record a lot of
20 interviews whether they're interrogations or not, um,
21 with juveniles now.
22 Q And that's just to be cautious so that in case an
23 interview changes its character that, uh, you're
24 protected and in compliance with that court
25 decision; is that right?
49
2 Q Now, you've indicated that, uh, between the time
3 of Mr. Dassey's, uh, first interview with law

4 enforcement regarding this case in November of
5 2005, and, uh, February of 2006, uh, that he was,

6 uh, someone that you thought, uh, would be of
7 interest and might provide more information than
8 he had originally provided; is that right?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And, in fact, uh, shortly before the February 27,
11 2006, interview, you had some information that
12 Mr. Dassey may have revealed some details
13 involving the offense to a relative of his; is
14 that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Urn, and it was within a day or two of that that
17 you arranged this, uh, February 27 interview; is
18 that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Urn, now, the information that you had
21 specifically from a relative of, uh,
22 Mr. Dassey's, was that, uh, he had seen, uh, body
23 parts in a bonfire near his, uh, residence; is
24 that correct?
25 A Um, along with that he ·had been losing weight and
50
1 crying a lot.
2 Q Sure. He was emotionally upset, disturbed,

3 something to that effect?
4 A My understanding.
5 Q Urn, now, knowing that there is some information
6 that Mr. Dassey, uh, was aware of the, urn,
7 destruction of a a human corpse by fire, uh,
8 led you to at least suspect that he might have
9 been involved, uh, in the, uh, disposal of that
10 corpse, uh, by -- in conjunction with Mr. Avery;
11 is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And, in fact, that's the reason why you decided
14 from the beginning of the February 27, uh,
15 interview to, uh, audiotape it; correct?
16 A Uh, no, I would disagree with that. It was, urn, to
17 protect him, to protect us, um, because of the -- the
18 enormity of the case, urn, we did not want to make any
19 mistakes in the case. And that was _the primary
20 reason that we decided to do that.
21 Q Urn, now, during the course of the, uh,
22 February 27, 2006, interview, then, at Mishicot
23 High School, Mr. Dassey, uh, gave information
24 regarding some observations he'd made of, uh,
25 human body parts in a bonfire at or near his,
51
1 uh -- his residence, uh, on Avery Road; is that
2 correct?
3 A Near his residence, yes.
4 Q And when Mr. Dassey, uh, told you that during the
5 interview at, uh, Mishicot High School, uh, that
6 led you to believe that he, at a minimum, might
7 have been involved in, uh, helping Mr. Avery in
8 some way dispose of the corpse of Mr. -- of, uh,
9 Teresa Halbach; is that right?
10 A Well, led µs to believe that he observed, you know,
11 her body in the fire. Um, we didn 1 t know at that
12 point whether he had anything to do with helping get
13 the body in the fire.
14 Q But you knew, as a result of your experience,
15 that frequently witnesses, um, to events like
16 that might initially not tell you all the
17 information they knew, and there might be more
18 that, uh, Mr. Dassey knew about the disposal of,
19 uh, body parts than what he had initially
20 provided at the high school; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that's the reason why -- one of the reasons
23 why, when you got over to the, uh, Two Rivers
24 Police Department, you read him his Miranda
25 rights; is that correct?
52
1 A Urn, again, because of the enormity of the case is the
2 reason that we read him his .Miranda rights and to
3 protect him as well.
4 Q Urn, now, the Miranda rights that you read to
5 Mr. Dassey, uh, did not include any reference as
6 to what offenses, if any, you suspected him of,
7 did -- did they?
8 A No.
9 Q And, in fact, the standard Miranda warnings don't
10 contain any sort of, uh, warning to a suspect of
11 the offense that you, uh, believe someone may
12 have committed before you do the interview; is
13 that correct?
15 Q Now, after the -- When you did the videotape
16 interview at the Two Rivers, uh, Police
17 Department, um, Mr. Dassey basically told you
18 the -- the same information he'd told you over at
19 the, uh, high school earlier that day; is that
20 correct?
21 A Uh, essentially the same, yes.
22 Q Now, you've indicated today that the -- the
23 reason you set up the, urn, motel room at the, uh,
24 Mishicot hills resort was because you wanted to
25 protect the integrity of the, uh, investigation;
53
'., 1 is that right?
2 A As I had started, um, explaining earlier, there were
3 two reasons. That was one of them, yes.
4 Q Okay. And there's second reason were you
5 concerned about Brendan possibly harming himself?

6 A Uh, not harming himself as much as maybe somebody,
7 um, on the Avery property harming him after finding
8 out that he had told us information.
9 Q Had you told, uh, Barb Janda, uh, though, that
10 you were concerned about Brendan possibly harming
11 himself?
12 A Oh, I'm sure, yes. I mean, that was, um, an issue,
13 but the -- the bigger issue is we were worried that
14 somebody else would harm him.

15 Q Now, going to the, uh -- the March 21 -- or,
16 excuse me -- the March 1 interview, part of the
17 interview process, uh, both on March 1 and on
18 February 27, was a period of time at the
19 beginning of the interview when you and
20 Mr. Fassbender, uh, made statements to, uh,
21 Mr. Dassey regarding, uh, the purpose of the
22 interview and stressing the needs why, uh, he
23 should cooperate with you and Mr. Fassbender; is
24 that correct?
25 A Yes.
54
1 Q As a standard technique during questioning to
2 have kind of an initial pep talk with a -- a
3 subject of an interview before going into greater
4 detail as to the events you're interviewing him
5 about; is that correct?
6 A I don't know that I would call it a pep talk, but we
7 do, urn, talk to them initially to tell them why we
8 are talking with them and the importance, um, of them
9 being truthful to us.
10 Q And one of the techniques that's, uh, used with
11 suspects of all ages to try to persuade them to,
12 uh, provide you information is to minimize the
13 seriousness of the offenses that you, uh, suspect
14 them of; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And in this particular case, uh, one example of
17 that technique that was used was, uh,
18 Mr. Fassbender telling Brendan that he thought,
19 uh, Brendan was all right, did not have to worry
20 about things; is that correct?
21 A Um, I believe that statement was made, yes.
22 Q Uh, there was also a statement I believe you made
23 to Mr. Dassey that you could work through
24 whatever Brendan did; is that right?
25 A Yes. ~ -
55
1 Q You also told him that the honest person's the
2 one who get the better deal out of everything?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Um, these were all made on, uh, March l; is that
5 right?
6 A I believe so, yes.
7 Q And you had a chance to prepare for this hearing
8 today by reviewing the tapes and the transcripts
9 of the March 1 interview; is that correct?
10 A I have.
11 Q Um -- And there was another statement made to
12 Brendan to the effect, urn -- and made by you --
13 that honesty was the only thing that could set
14 him free; is that correct?
15 A Yes, and -- and by that I meant his -- his feelings,
16 um -- He had indicated to us he could not sleep. Um,
17 we had information he had been losing weight. Um, by
18 free, getting the weight off his shoulders. We
19 commonly say that type of thing. We knew he wasn't
20 going to be able to get through this until he
21 admitted it to somebody. It was bothering him,
22 obviously.
23 Q You don't know from your own knowledge, uh, what
24 it -- how it was that Brendan perceived that
25 particular statement, do you?
56
1 A No.
2 Q Now, after that, um, statement about honesty,
3 concept of the free, Brendan then told you about
4 seeing Mr. Avery and Miss Halbach talking on the
5 porch; uh, is that correct?

6 A Urn, it was some time after that. Correct.
7 Q Uh, and you had other information that led you to
8 believe that, um, Mr. Dassey could not have seen
9 Steve Avery and Teresa Halbach talking on the
10 porch, correct?
11 A Uh, based on the other witness' statements, um,
12 people who were there around that time, yes, that•s
13 correct.
14 Q Um, and, initially, back in November of 2005,
15 Brendan had made the statement about seeing, uh,
16 Steve Avery and Teresa Halbach talking on the
17 porch; correct?
18 A I really can't answer that question. I'm not sure
19 exactly what was all said during that interview.
20 Q Uh, at some point early in -- in the
21 investigation you'd received information from a
22 person that was claimed to be Brendan Dassey's,
23 uh, bus driver from school who also claimed to
24 have seen, uh, Steve Avery and Teresa Halbach,
25 uh, talking on the porch at the time that, uh,
57
1 Mr. Dassey was let out of the school bus; is that
2 correct?
3 A I don't recall the, uh, bus driver saying that. I

4 recall the bus driver telling us how she came down
5 and dropped the kids off and saw several vehicles. I
6 don't recall her saying anything about seeing Steve
7 and Teresa talking.
8 Q Now, at another point during the March 1
9 interview, uh, there was a discussion about how
10 Teresa Halbach got in the back of the jeep that
11 was, uh, on Steve Avery's property; is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And, uh, during the discussion of that, is it,
15 uh, correct that you told Mr. Dassey that if you
16 helped him, referring to Steve Avery, that it was
17 okay because, uh, he, referring to Steve Avery,
18 was telling you to do it?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You also made, uh, assurances to Mt. Dassey that,
21 uh, referring to him as a buddy; is that correct?
22 A Uh, yes.
23 Q Now, before Brendan Dassey told you that he had
24 sex with Teresa Halbach, uh, you made a statement
25 to Mr. Dassey, quote, what happens next? Do you
58
1 remember? We already know, but we need to hear
2 it from you. It 1 s okay. It's not your fault.
3 What happens next? Is that -- Did you say
4 something to that effect before Mr. Dassey
5 admitted having sex with, uh, Teresa Halbach?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Um, and -- but, as a matter of fact, is it, uh,
8 correct that you really, uh, had nothing at that
9 point, other than a theory, that, uh, Mr. Dassey
10 had, uh, been involved in a sexual assault?
11 A In regards to the sexual assault portion, yes, that's
12 correct.
13 Q Now, the videotaped interview of March 1, uh,
14 2006, you say it took place in what's called a
15 soft-type, uh, interview room at the Manitowoc
16 County Sheriff's Departmen-t; is that correct?
17 A That 1 s correct.
18 Q Um, even though it's a so-called soft, uh,
19 interview room, it 1 s still, essentially, a closed
20 off small area; is that correct?
21 A It's a smaller room, yes.
22 Q Uh, during the interview, the door was closed; is
23 that right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q During the interview, there were, uh, three of
59
1 you in the room; you, Mr. Fassbender, and
2 Mr. Dassey; is that right?
4 Q Uh, during your interviews of, uh, Mr. -- Mr.

5 Dassey, uh, did you ever discuss with him how
6 well he was doing in school?
7 A Um, we -- we discussed school a lot. I don 1 t know
8 that we specifically asked him how well he was doing
9 in school. I -- I don 1 t recall that.
10 Q Uh, did you also check records that were
11 available to you as a law enforcement, uh, person
12 to determine whether or not Mr. Dassey had any
13 prior involvement, uh, with the criminal justice
14 system?
15 A Uh, we did, yes.
16 Q And is it correct that, uh, you -- From those law
17 enforcement records, you discovered that Mr.
18 Dassey had never been, uh, arrested or titled for
19 any sort of, uh, offense?
20 A He was, uh, labeled as a suspect in one offense.
21 However, from reviewing that report, does not appear
22 that he was ever interviewed on that.
23 Q You've indicated that during the interview, um,
24 of March 1, Brendan was allowed to speak to his
25 mother; is that correct?
60
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, the point in time during the interview when
3 that occurred was after Brendan had already made
4 statements implicating himself in the homicide,
5 mutilation of a corpse, and sexual assault; is
6 that right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And would it be fair to characterize that portion
9 of the interview where Barbara Janda was there as
10 a -- basically a a mother saying -- having her
11 last words with her son before he was going to be
12 put into custody?
13 A It was near the end of the interview.
14 Q You've indicated that a couple times during the
15 interview you deliberately provided false
16 information to Mr. Dassey to determine whether or
17 not he was simply, uh, saying things that you
18 expected him or wanted him to say; is that
19 correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And one example you've got -- you gave was
22 whether or not, uh, Teresa Halbach had a tattoo;
23 is that correct?
25 Q And the other one was whether or not Mr. Dassey
61
1 had ever handled a firearm during the offense; is
2 that right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Were there any other examples, other than that,
5 where you provided, uh, in-correct information to

6 Mr. Dassey to determine whether or not, uh, he
7 was, um, responding to a suggestion or giving you
8 his honest recollections?
9 A Um, those would be the two instances that I can think

10 of. Urn, but we would say certain things, he would
11 say, no, that didn't happen, or, yes, that did
12 happen.
13 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: That's all the
14 questions I have, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Any redirect?
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Just a few questions.
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 Q Did Brendan ever ask for an attorney?
20 A He did not.
21 Q Brendan ever ask to speak with his mother? Or
22 was he ever denied the chance to speak with his
23 mother?
24 A He was not.
25 THE COURT: That really was two questions;
62
1 Did he ever ask to speak with his mother and --
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Sorry, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Why don't you just ask him
4 as two simple questions.
5 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Did he ever ask to speak to
6 the mother?
7 A No.
8 Q Was he ever denied access to his mother?
9 A He was not.
10 Q Finally, the detail of the version of events, who
11 did the detail come from?
12 A Uh, the detail came from Brendan.
13 Q That detail include his involvement in the
14 homicide?
15 A It did, yes.
16 Q Did it include his involvement in the surrounding
17 crimes as well?
18 A It did, yes.
19 Q Did the detail also involve his Uncle Steven
20 Avery's involvement?
21 A Yes.
22 Q These weren't suggestions by you where he just
23 had to say the word ~yes," right?
24 A No, it was not.
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: All right. That's all for
63
1 this hearing, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Any recross?
3 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, no, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: You may step down. Do you have
5 any further witnesses?
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Uh, not -- not for, uh,
7 our case in chief, Judge, no.
8 THE COURT: I think we'll take about a
9 ten-minute break at this time. We'll be back ten
10 minutes from now. Then we can proceed with the
11 defendant.
12 {Recess had at 10:20 a.m.)
13 {Reconvened at 10:36 a.m.)
14 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz, you have no further
15 witnesses?
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I don't, Judge.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Kachinsky.
18 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, we'd call to
19 the stand, Barbara Janda.
20 THE CLERK: Would you raise your right
21 hand?
22 BARBARA JANDA,
64
2 THE WITNESS: Barb Janda, J-a-n-d-a.
5 Q Okay. Barb, are you related to the person
6 that's, uh -- uh, has a hearing here today?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q Uh, and, uh, what's your relationship to, uh,
9 Brendan Dassey?
10 A He's my son.
11 Q When was, uh, Brendan Dassey born?
12 A October 19 of '89.
13 Q Uh, as of February 27 and March 1 of 2006, how
14 old was Brendan?
15 A Sixteen.
16 Q Urn, what school does Brendan attend?
17 A Mishicot High School.
18 Q How long had Brendan been attending school as of,
19 uh, February and March of this year?
20 A In Mishicot?
21 Q Right.
22 A Urn, I moved out there in 2001. So, it would be 2001.
23 Q Uh, now, as, uh Have you always had, uh,
24 physical placement of, uh, Brendan Dassey?
25 A Yes.
65
1 Q Uh, uh, were you married at some point to Brendan
2 Dassey' s father?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Uh, did that marriage terminate?

5 A Yes.
6 Q Uh, when did that marriage terminate?
7 A Ninety-two.
8 Q Now, um, as -- as Brendan 1 s, uh, parent, have you
9 been apprised from time to time as to his
10 progress in school?
11 A Brendan's a very slow learner. I mean, his grades
12 are really, really bad.
13 Q Uh, has Brendan been subject to, uh,
14 psychological testing in school?

15 A Um, he had some testing done.
16 Q Uh, is is Brendan in regular classes in
17 school?
18 A Um, some, I think, and some he's in special ed.
19 Q Um, now, in connection with, uh, the motion that
20 we're bringing in this particular case regarding
21 Brendan Dassen's -- Dassey's statements to, uh,
22 uh, law enforcement officials, uh, are you aware
23 that the issue of·his school performance was
24 going to be part of the motion?
25 A Yes.
66
1 Q In connection with that, did you receive a form
2 for transmittal to the, uh, Mishicot School
3 District, uh, permitting release of information
4 regarding Brendan 1 s, uh, behavioral and, uh,
5 other records from the Mishicot School District?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did that, uh, authorization for release of
8 information include, uh, release of information
9 not only to me but also to the Court?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And, uh, do you reaffirm, uh, your willingness to
12 permit that information to be released so that
13 this, uh, motion can be fairly decided by the
14 Court?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Um, uh, your observations of Brendan's
17 personality, uh, have you been able to, uh, make
18 any observation regarding whether or not, uh,
19 he's someone that responds readily to suggestions
20 from others?
21 A Usually he does. Um, he's a very shy boy. Um, he
22 doesn't say too much.
23 Q Um, have you been able to make any observations
24 regarding Brendan's, uh, level, of, uh,
25 self-esteem or assertiveness?
67
1 A Not really.
3 questions I have.
4 THE COURT: Cross, if any?
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
7 Q Barb, you remember that, um, since this case
8 began, that Brendan has been subjected to some
9 questioning by police officers; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q In fact -- You have to speak up just a little bit
12 if you can, please. In fact, uh, your whole
13 family, you, your other sons, um, other members
14 of, uh -- of your family have also been
15 questioned; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that questioning has occurred, really, since
18 the time that, uh, search warrants were starting
1·9 to be executed sometime after the 5th of
20 November. Does that sound about right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And that's really continued through -- well,
23 March 1 when -- when Brendan was interviewed by
24 these officers, uh, but it's maybe even continued
25 after that. You 1 ve talked to police after that
68
1 as well; is that right?
2 A Um, I think once.
3 Q When officers had sought to interview Brendan or
4 your other son, Blain, as an example, would you

s provide them with permission? Allow them to
6 interview your sons?
7 A Um, my two older ones, they're old enough to do what
8 they want. Um, Blain, they talked to, but I usually
9 went along, and, with Brendan, they more or less
10 didn't want me in there.
11 Q My question, though -- My question to you, Barb,
12 is you had, at least up until March 1, attempted
13 to be cooperative with law enforcement efforts to
14 interview not only yourself but other family
15 members; is that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, until March 1, were there any questions of
18 threats or promises or intimidation either to
19 yourself or to your sons that you knew about that

20 made you want to stop, uh, cooperating or stop
21 the interviews with your family?
22 A No.
23 Q So, as far as you knew, officers were respectful.
24 I know -- I know the questions were hard and
25 the -- and the topic was difficult to talk about,
69
1 uh, but you understood that they were doing their
2 job and they were trying to be respectful to you
3 and your family. Is that -- is that a fair
4 statement?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. And prior to March 1, did Brendan ever
7 complain to you how he was treated by any police
8 officers? Prior to March 1.
9 A Not really, no.
10 Q On March 1, then, that's the subject of -- of --
11 of this hearing, officers asked you for
12 permission to interview Brendan at the sheriff's
13 department in Manitowoc. Do you remember that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you gave them permission to transport him
16 from the school to the police station; is that
17 right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Officers invite you to come along? Did they
20 invite you to the police station as well?
21 A No.
22 Q During the interview, itself, were you invited to
23 come to the police station?
24 A The Manitowoc one or the Two Rivers one?
25 Q The Manitowoc one.
70
1 A No.
2 Q Well, you were there, weren't you?.
3 A I was there, yes, but that was after it was all done
4 and over with.
5 Q Okay. How did you get there?
6 A I walked over there.
7 Q Who
8 A The the day that they took him to Manitowoc, I was
9 at the courthouse because I was getting a divorce
10 that day.
11 Q Okay. So, rather than being invited, you just
12 happened to show up at the station; is that
13 right?
14 A I had called them to see if they were done with
15 Brendan or if they had brung him back to school or
16 not and that 1 s when they told me that they had
17 arrested him.
18 Q And at that point you were invited to the
19 station?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You were allowed to meet with Brendan at the
22 station; is that right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And were you informed at the station, uh, what
25 Brendan had told them? That is, his involvement
. 71
1 in these crimes?
2 A More or less, yes.
3 Q And that Brendan had also implicated his Uncle
4 Steve in this murder as well; is that right?
5 Were you told that then?
6 A I don't remember.
7 Q Okay. But you knew that Brendan told the
8 officers that he was involved; right?
9 A. That 1 s what they had told me, that he was involved.
10 Q All right. After the interview is over and, in
11 fact, several times since this interview,
12 officers have invited you to watch the tape,
13 haven't they?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And have you done that?
16 A No.
17 Q Barb, the, um, police describe some concerns that
18 they had after Brendan had implicated Steven in

19 this homicide. Concerns about, um, attempts that
20 some family members might make to get Brendan to
21 change his story or to not talk. Do you remember
22 hearing Investigator Wiegert say that today?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you recall having that conversation with
25 Investigator Wiegert that you also were concerned
72
1 about what might happen to Brendan if he went
2 back home to the Avery compound?
3 A On the first?
4 Q Before the first.
5 A I mean
6 Q The 27th.
7 A -- the 27th?
8 Q Uh-huh.
9 A Um, I had told them that I didn't have to go home. I
10 had other places that I could go.
11 Q My question --
12 A They suggested that I go to Fox Hills.
13 Q My question is: Did you also share with them
14 your concern about what might happen to Brendan
15 if he went back home?
17 Q You told investigators that day, on the first,
18 and you've told them after that, that Brendan 1 s a
19 honest kid, that he 1 s a truthful kid. Do you
20 remember telling them that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q In fact, I think you used the words, he doesn't
23 lie. Remember saying that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And you believed, at least up until March 1, that
73
1 Brendan was truthful and honest, didn't you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And that when he told people something, when he
4 told authority figures something, he should be
5 believed. You thought that, didn't you?
6 A Yes.
7 THE COURT: Counsel, I'm going to stop you
8 there. Uh, I understand the purposes of your
9 question, but this is a hearing on voluntariness.
10 We're -- we're not the -- the -- the truth -- the
11 factual truth of -- of what was -- what was or
12 wasn't uttered there is not the subject of this
13 hearing, so, where are we going with this line of
14 questioning?
15 ATTONREY KRATZ: Well, Judge, the
16 suggestion will be that he was threatened, or
17 coerced, or promised to say something, uh, that, uh,
18 he either didn't, urn, want to say or that there were
19 problems within that. The fact that Brendan was
20 truthful and honest, didn 1 t complain about any
21 coercion, or threats, or the like, I think, is
22 relevant. It isn't for the truth of the -- the
23 underlying statement, Judge.
24 THE COURT: Well, insofar as it goes to
25 the -- the voluntariness, you can ask a couple of
74
1 more questions, but --
2 ATTONREY KRATZ: That's all I was going to

3 ask --
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: as -- as to that,
6 Judge. I appreciate that.

7 Q (By Attorney Kratz) You talked about Brendan's,
8 uh, school, and we 1 ll hear from, I think, members
9 of the, uh -- the school hereafter, but,
10 basically, Brendan was in regular classes. You
11 were aware of that, weren't you?
12 A Some of them, yes.

···-···-+.
' 13 Q Brendan was in the process of getting his
14 driver's license, wasn't he?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You have to answer a little louder, please.
17 A Yes.
18 Q And to get your driver's license, you have to
19 take some tests; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you, I think, if I remember correctly, have
22 to have a parent sign for you that, uh, indicates

23 that this is a person that is smart enough to get
24 their driver's license and makes good enough
25 decisions to get their license. Did you have to
75
1 sign something like that?
2 A At -- at the motor vehicle, yes.
3 Q All right. And you, in fact, thought at that
4 time, back, uh, in the fall, that Brendan was
5 mature enough to drive an automobile, didn't you?
6 A Yes.
7 Q You thought he was bright enough, that he was
8 smart enough to understand what went with driving
9 an automobile, didn't you?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Was Brendan on any kind of medications at the
12 time?
13 A No.
14 Q To your knowledge, was Brendan intoxicated or
15 otherwise impaired when he spoke with, uh, law
16 enforcement officers?
17 A No.
18 Q You have a computer at your home; is that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Brendan have access to that computer?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Brendan was able to use that computer, to use the
23 internet and, uh, otherwise operate that piece of

24 machinery; is that right?
25 A Yes.
76
1 Q Do you know if Brendan had any e-mail accounts?
2 If he would e -- use the e-mail?
3 A I couldn 1 t tell you.
4 Q Send messages, or instant messages, or anything
5 like that? Did you know --
6 A MSN.
7 Q -- if he did that or not?
8 A That's about it. MSN.
9 Q And send instant messages?
10 A Yeah, I think that 1 s what it's called, yeah.
11 Q And that's communicating to other people? That•s
12 actually typing or writing answers to questions
13 and communicating?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You're aware of that, aren't you?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And Brendan's able to do that; isn't he?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You believe Brendan's able to remember things
20 that happened and tell you what happened? Like
21 when you'd ask what happened at school today,
22 would he answer those questions for you?
23 A Yes.
24 Q He was able to observe things, to process them,
25 to understand them, and then to tell you at least
77
1 about what happened? That 1 s all true, isn't it?
2 A Yeah. It takes him a while, though.
3 Q Okay. Well, he's not, urn, ever been diagnosed as
4 being incompetent or not understanding what 1 s
5 going on in his surroundings, has-he?
6 A No.
7 Q You're aware that Brendan also gave a written
8 statement to the police about, urn, some of his
9 involvement? Some of the things that he had seen
10 in this case?
11 A I guess so.
12 Q You don't know?
13 A Not really. I don't know too much.
14 Q All right. At school, would Brendan have to
15 write things out, whether it was homework, or
16 some papers, or theme papers? Or, at least, um,
17 homework was in a written form for Brendan; isn 1 t
18 that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q He was able to do that?
21 A Honestly, I couldn't really tell you because he never
22 brung any homework home.
23 Q Finally, Miss Janda, urn, March 1, after the
24 interview, was it your expectation that Brendan
25 would be coming home with you? In other words,
78
1 um, did the officers believe that after that
2 statement was given, you'd be able to take him
3 home with you?
4 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Objection. That asks,
5 uh, something that this witness would have no
6 knowledge as to what the officers believed. She
7 might know what the officers told her.
8 ATTONREY KRATZ: I can rephrase that,
9 Judge.
10 THE COURT: Please do.
11 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Did the officers tell you
12 that after the interview that Brendan would be
13 going home with you?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did they then also tell you that it was because
16 of his admissions, because the details that he
17 gave that day, that he couldn't go home? That
18 they weren't going to allow him to go home?
19 A Yes.
20 ATTONREY KRATZ: Thank you, ma'am. That's
21 all I have, Judge.

23 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes.

79
1 Q On March 1, had the officers contacted you before
2 they removed Brendan from Mishicot High School to
3 take him over to the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
4 Department for an interview?
5 A Yes, they did.

6 Q And was that the time when the officers told you
7 that they expected that Brendan was going to be
8 coming home after the interview?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And, then, later on, when they contacted you
11 after Brendan had made some admissions regarding
12 involvement in the death of Teresa Halbach, is
13 that when they made the contrary statement that
14 they were going to arrest him and he would not be
15 coming home?
16 A Yes.
17 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: That's all I have,
18 Your Honor.
19 ATTONREY KRATZ: I have nothing further.
20 Thank you, Judge.
21 THE COURT: You may step down.
22 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, we call, uh, Kris
23 Schoen -- Schoenenberger-Gross.
- 24 THE CLERK: If you would raise your right
25 hand.
80
1 KlUS SCHOENENBERGER-GROSS,


6 THE WITNESS: Kris Schoenenberger-Gross,
7 S-c-h-o-e-n-e-n-b-e-r-g-e-r hypen G-r-o-s-s.
10 Q Uh, Kris, by whom are you employed?
11 A Mishicot School District.
12 Q What is the nature of your employment there?
13 A I'm the school psychologist and the coordinator of
14 alternative services.
15 Q How long have you worked for the Mishicot School
16 District?
17 A Eight years.
18 Q Um, have you prepared a resume of your, uh,
19 educational background and, uh, uh, professional
20 positions?
21 A Yes.
22 (Exhibit No. 3 marked for identification.)
23 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: May I approach, Your
24 Honor?
25 THE COURT: You may.
Bl
1 Q (By Attorney Kachinsky) I'll show you here
2 what's, uh, been marked as Exhibit No. 3. Is
3 that a copy of your, uh your resume?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And was that prepared for purposes of this
6 hearing today?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, in the course of your professional duties as
9 a school psychologist for the, uh, Mishicot
10 School district, um, have you had occasion to
11 deal with, uh, evaluations and, uh, concerns
12 regarding the person that's the defendant in this
13 case, Brendan Dassey?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Um, are you also -- Are you the custodian of his,
16 uh, records in the Mishicot School District?
17 A Yes, I am.
18 Q What kind of records does, uh, the Mishicot
19 School District, uh, maintain on Brendan Dassey?
20 A We have special education records, cumulative
21 records, um, behavioral records.
22 Q Uh, has Brendan Dassey•s, uh, mother, Barbara
23 Janda, signed a release permitting those records
24 to be released and information regarding those
25 records to be released for purposes of this court
82
1 hearing?
2 A Yes, she has.
3 Q Um, uh, now, did you have occasion, uh,
4 personally, to conduct an evaluation of
5 Mr. Dassey for purposes of his, uh, educational,
6 uh, placement and progress?
7 A Yes, in October of 2002.
8 Q Uh, before you I believe is an exhibit, uh,
9 Exhibit No. 4, uh~ is that a copy of the report
10 that you prepared as a result of that, uh,
11 evaluation?
12 A Yes, it is.
13 Q Uh, and is everything contained in that report,
14 uh, true and correct to the best of your
15 knowledge and belief?
16 A It is with one exception. There was one word omitted
17 in the final typed version. In the observation
18 section on page 2, the word "eye" was omitted. It
19 should read "direct eye contact."
20 Q Uh, now, in preparing this, uh, report, uh, was
21 this -- how did you, uh, go about doing that in
22 terms of obtaining the information regarding
23 Brendan Dassey?
24 A Um, through the evaluation processes? Is -- is that
25 your question?
83
1 Q Right.
2 A Okay. Um, it was a reevaluation. So, we reviewed
3 the school records to determine what type of testing
4 was needed, and, um, intelligence testing was one
5 area that we decided we wanted to look at as far as
6 his overall intellectual ability and how he processes
7 information.
8 Q According to the records that, uh, were available
9 to you in preparing that evaluation, was -- when
10 was the first time that Brendan Dassey was
11 evaluated for purposes of a school district?
12 A Um, his initial evaluation, first time, was in 1996.
13 September of 19~6.
14 Q What sort of tests, uh, were used in evaluating,
15 uh, Mr. Dassey's, um, potential performance in
16 school?
17 A Um, and my personal evaluation was done in October of
18 2002. The 1996 and 1999 evaluations were done by
19 other psychologists in the Reedsville School
20 District. Um, but we did do intelligence testing.
21 Ninety-six and '99 they used the Wechsler
22 Intelligence Scale for Children.
23 THE REPORTER: Could you slow down,
24 please?
25 THE COURT: Could you --
84
1 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Oops, slow down.
2 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
3 Q (By Attorney Kachinsky) Okay. Sure. What
4 what what was what was the test that was
5 used by the, uh, uh -- by the, uh, Reedsville
6 School District?
7 A The Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children, Third
8 Edition.
9 Q What does that test, in particular, measure?
10 A It's an intelligence test that measures a student's
11 thinking ability, their ability to problem solve, and
12 reason.
13 Q Uh, what were the res -- Is there a -- a measure
14 of someone's, uh, intelligence and performance
15 known has IQ?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And what does IQ stand for?
18 A Intelligence quotients.
19 Q What does that, uh, mean?
20 A Again, it it looks at the student's overall, um,
21 intellectual ability, their ability to think, problem
22 solve, reason, ability to learn.
23 Q Uh, does that particular measure, uh, compare a
24 given -- child of a given age against, uh, his or
25 her peers?
85
1 A Right. It is is based on age. Urn-hrrun.
2 Q Um, if you were an average -- had average ability
3 in school, what would your, uh, IQ score be?
4 A Anywhere from a 90 to a 109 is an average range.
5 Q Uh, when the tests were conducted of, uh, Brendan
6 in the Reedsville School District in, uh, 1996,
7 uh, what -- what did it indicate in terms of
8 Mr. Dassey's, uh, IQ, uh, verbal performance, and
9 full scale?
10 A May I please ref er --
11 Q Sure.
12 A -- to the record? In 1996, Brendan's full scale, his

.. .\ 13 overall IQ was a 74, his verbal IQ was a 65, and his
14 performance IQ was an 87.
15 Q What do those particular measures of Mr. Dassey's
16 IQ indicate in terms of his ability to
17 communicate and to, uh, understand, uh,
18 information?
19 A Um, the -- the overall score is a little less
20 meaningful, because there is such a big split between
21 his verbal and his performance IQ's. The verbal is
22 looking at his ability to think with words and to use
23 his words and verbal skills and problem solving, and
24 that was a well below average, urn, score.
25 His perf orrnance IQ of an 87 is looking
86
1 more at visual kinds of tasks, um, and visual
2 reasoning types of things. And that was in a
3 below average to average range.
4 Q Uh, was another evaluation performed on

5 Mr. Dassey in November, 1999, that you were aware
6 of?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And by whom was that evaluation conducted?
9 A Urn, that was done by another psychologist in the
10 Reedsville School District.
11 Q Uh, what were the, uh, scores that were noted
12 during the 1999 evaluation?
13 A Uh, the full scale IQ score was a 73, the verbal IQ
14 was a 69, the performance IQ was an 82.
15 Q Uh, was there any significant- change, uh, between
16 1996 and 1999?
17 A No. The results are consistent. He shows stronger
18 nonverbal or visual reasoning abilities than his
19 verbal abilities.
20 Q Um, is it, uh, normal for these particular scores
21 to remain fairly consistent over -- over time
22 with, uh, someone who's a student?
23 A Typically, yes. There -- there can be variability
24 but, in general, they tend to stay fairly consistent.
25 Q Uh, now, did you conduct your own evaluation of
87
1 Mr. Dassey in, uh, October of 2002?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q What test did you use to, uh, evaluate Mr. Dassey
4 at that.time?
5 A I used a test called the Woodcock-Johnson, Third
6 Edition, tests of cognitive abilities.
7 Q And what, uh, specifically does that test, uh,
8 measure?
9 A It measures his overall intelligence as well.
10 Q Uh, what were the, uh, scores that were obtained
11 in that particular test?
12 A He obtained a general intellectual ability score of
13 78, a verbal ability score of 81, a thinking ability
14 score of 93, and a cognitive efficiency score of 73.
15 Q Now, what does the, uh -- Uh, was there a
16 percentile ranking for those particular, uh, test
17 results?
18 A Yes --
19 Q What is a percentile ranking?
20 A Um, for example, his general intellectual ability
21 percentile rank was a seven. That means that Brendan
22 scored as well as or better than seven out of one
23 hundred students his age.

24 Q Um, so he was in could be characterized as
25 being in the top 93 percent of his class?
88
1 A No. No. Um, showing that he has, urn, some delays.
2 That he's, urn, on the lower end.
3 Q Um, were the results that you obtained from the

4 Woodstock-Johnson (sic) test that you conducted
5 in October of 2002, urn, significantly different
6 in any way than the two previous tests that you

7 testified about from the Reedsville School
8 District?
9 A No. Generally, results are consistent.
10 Q Uh, is, uh, there any reason to believe that, uh,
11 there would be significant changes in
12 Mr. Dassey's, uh, intellectual abilities between
13 October, 2002 and February or March of 2006?
14 A No.
15 Q Urn, from your review of Mr. Dassey's, uh, records
16 from the Mishicot School District, uh, and your
17 own evaluation, do you have, uh, any opinion as
18 to what Mr. Dassey's overall cognitive ability
19 is?
20 A Urn, Brendan has an -- overall, some delays. Again,
21 it 1 s within a borderline to below average range,
22 intellectually, overall. He does struggle more with
23 the verbal abilities, urn, as well as memory. He
24 struggles with short-term memory kinds of tasks.
25 Working memory.
89
1 He has strengths in the area of visual
2 spacial problem solving. For example, solving
3 puzzles. Um, he had below average to average
4 score in that range, which is thinking ability.
5 And he does better there.
6 There is a range of intelligence with a
7 cognitive disability being the lowest range, and
8 that was formally known as mental retardation.
9 Brendan's scores do not fall within that range.

10 He is not that low.
11 He has been identified with a specific
12 learning disability and, as a result, has needs,
13 um, and delays in the area of reading, written
14 expression, and spelling skills related to his

15 cognitive levels. Um, math is an area of
16 strength for Brendan.
17 Q Based on those scores and your observations of
18 Brendan, does he have a -- how would you describe
19 the difficulty he has, if any, in, uh,
20 communicating information, uh, to others?
21 A Brendan has also been identified with a speech and
22 language impairment, particularly in the area of
23 language. He has difficulties expressing himself,
24 verbally, using his words, as well as understanding
25 some aspects of language. For example, in the school
90
";' 1 setting, um, understanding some directions, um,
2 without assistance.
3 Um, he also has difficulties in the area
4 of the social aspects of communication, and that

5 would be such as, um, understanding and using
6 nonverbal cues, facial expressions, eye contact,
7 body language, tone of voice.
8 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Um, I have no further
9 questions. We'd move Exhibits, uh, 3 and 4 into

10 evidence.
11 THE COURT: Any objection to Exhibits 3 and
12 4?
13 ATTONREY KRATZ: No. That's fine, Judge.
14 THE COURT: Offered and received. May I

15 have those, please? Thank you. Cross.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
18 Q Miss Schoenenberger-Gross, can you describe how
19 children within your school district are
20 identified as qualifying for special ed services?
21 A Um, initially a referral would need to be made by a
22 parent or a teacher if there are concerns that there
23 might be delays, and then we would go through an
24 evaluation process, which includes interviews, review
25 of school records, um, formal testing, observations,
91
1 and then we meet as an IEP team to determine whether
2 or not the student meets the eligibility criteria
3 that's been set by the state to --
4 THE REPORTER: You're going to have to
5 slow down.
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Slow down.
7 THE WITNESS: Where should I -- Where
8 should I back up?
9 THE REPORTER: Uh, "student meets the
10 eligibility --
11 THE WITNESS: We determine, as a team,
12 if, urn, the student meets the state eligibility
13 criteria for disability, and whether or not the
14 student has a need for special education
15 services.
16 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Okay. As I understand,
17 Brendan was identified, prior to coming to
18 Mishicot High School, as qualifying for special
19 ed services; is that right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, special ed services, um, is not just you get
22 them or you don't. It's a whole continuum or a
23 range of services that can be offered to
24 students; is that right?
25 A Correct.
92
1 Q Some students have such disabilities or deficits
2 that they can't be in regular classes; is that
3 true?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Was Brendan one of those kids?
6 A No, he was not.
7 Q Some students have such emotional problems that
8 they are in what's called a self-contained
9 setting. Can you tell us what that is?
10 A Um, that would be if the student is, um, completely
11 in a special education classroom and does not go into
12 the regular education classroom at all.
13 Um, you were referring to some students

'i
14 with behavior problems and -- and those would be
15 because of social and emotional behavioral
16 difficulties
17 THE COURT: Again, you're going to have --
18 you're going to have to slow up.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 Q (By Attorney Kratz) You said that those would be
21 some emotional or behavioral problems, uh, in
22 addition to some special ed problems that would
23 require them to be what's called self-contained;
24 is that correct?
25 A Correct.
93
1 Q Was Brendan one of those kids?
2 A No, he was not.
3 Q Brendan was in regular classes; is that right?
4 A He had a combination. He was primarily in regular
5 education classes with, um, a couple of classes that
6 were in the special education classroom.
7 Q Is Brendan at all incompetent?
8 A No.
9 Q Is Brendan mentally retarded?
10 A No, he's not.
11 Q Is Brendan, to your knowledge, psychotic?
12 A Not to my knowledge.
13 Q Does Brendan suffer from ADD or ADHD to your
14 knowledge?
16 Q Does Brendan have such deficits that he needs to
17 be medicated to your knowledge?
19 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether Brendan can
20 understand right from wrong?
21 A In the school setting, urn, Brendan is a student who
22 typically follows the school rules. He does not tend
23 to get in trouble. Urn, so, to me that demonstrates
24 that he does understand right from wrong.
25 Q All right. So, in review of your school records
94
1 he was able to, if he chose to, follow a code of
2 conduct; is that right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether Brendan has
5 the ability to observe, and process, and recall,
6 and later describe events?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Yes, he -- you have an --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- opinion or, yes, he does.
11 A Oh, yes. Yes, I -- Yes, I believe that he can.
12 Q Okay.
13 A He does.
14 Q So, there's nothing about Brendan's deficits or
15 lower than average abilities that affect his
16 ability to tell somebody what happened yesterday;
17 is that right?
18 A Right. Correct.
19 Q You said that Brendan's test scores, at least
20 some of them, fall within simply the below
21 average range. Is there a, urn -- I think you
22 mentioned the continuum of average and below
23 average, but what comes after that?
24 A As far as with intellectual ability
25 Q Yes.
95
1 A -- for example?
2 Q Um-hmm.
3 A Urn, there's an average range. Then there would be a
4 below average range. A borderline range. And well
5 below average. Well below average being the area of
6 cognitive disability.
7 Q Okay. Is there 'something below that?
8 A No.
9 Q Well below average is as low as -- as you go in
10 cognitive ability?
11 A Um-hmm. Lower extreme, well below average. Um-hmm.
12 Q As I understand, Brendan was making progress
13 through high school in some of these areas.
14 Specifically, urn, um, socially. His, uh, social
15 skills were improving; is that right?
16 A Um-hmm. He -- as far as he was able to participate
17 in primarily regular education classes throughout the
18 day with his same-aged peers, and that -- in that
19 way, I would say, yes, that he 1 d made progress. Yes,
20 sir.
21 Q And -- and -- and, importantly, what I'm -- I
22 need to ask you, Miss Miss
23 Schoenenberger-Gross, is that he was placed with
24 his peers, with other kids. He was integrated
25 with the rest of these kids at school; is that
96
1 correct?
2 A Correct. Um-hmm.
3 Q Not every high school student is average; is
4 is that true?
5 A That is true.
6 Q There 1 s some above average and some below
7 average; is that right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And although Brendan, um, may have been in the
10 below average range, uh, you're not suggesting
11 that he didn't understand things, or his
12 surroundings, or wasn't able to, uh, be
13 responsive; is that fair?
14 A Yes. Can I clarify something
15 Q Please do.
16 A -- from a previous question?
17 Q Sure. Uh-huh.
18 A You had asked about, um, whether or not he'd be able
19 to tell you, for example, about his day. Urn, to
20 be -- to be clear, yes, he is able to do that. But
21 he does have those corrununication needs which, urn, in
22 the school setting, um, he might not look at you.
23 Those social communications just -- you know, aspects
24 would come into play, urn, as far as, you know, when
25 talking with him. But he is capable of remembering
97
1 what happened and telling you about those things.
2 Q My question is, if he chose to communicate

3 something to you about what had happened before,
4 uh, he would have the ability to do that
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, you haven't watched this videotape? You
9 haven't watched the detail in which he provided
10 to law enforcement about, uh, things that he was
11 involved in, were you?
12 A No.
13 Q And there were no behavior intervention plans
14 with Brendan that were necessary at school, were
15 there?
16 A No.
17 Q This may be something you can or can't answer.
18 And if not, just let me know. But as you or
19 another teacher would see Brendan interacting at
20 school or functioning at school, would he
21 function just like a normal high school kid?
22 A Um, yes. Um, aside from some of the communication
23 differences that you might see. Um, the -- the
24 diminished eye contact, for example, where other kids
25 are typically making eye contact more frequently.
98
1 But, otherwise, yes.
2 Q Otherwise looks pretty normal --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- is that right? Okay.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That 1 s all I have for
6 this witness, Judge. Thank you.
8 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Um, yes.
9 REDIRECT EXAMINA1rION
11 Q You testified that, uh, Mr. Dassey had problems
12 affecting his short-term memory. How would that
13 affect him in -- in everyday life in terms of his
14 ability to receive events or to communicate
15 regarding them?
16 A Urn, specifically, you know, looking at the short-term
17 memory, urn, you know, I can speak to it in the school
18 setting as to how that can impact his ability to, urn,
19 learn to read and remember, um, and identify letters
20 .and and the sounds that go with those letters,
21 and and words, and as far as getting that
22 information into short-term memory. um, in everyday

23 life, um, perhaps -- I I guess -- I -- I don't
24 want to speak to that. I can't -- I don't feel
25 comfortable being able to answer that.
99
1 'Q And you said that Mr. Dassey had difficulties,
2 uh, in picking up nonverbal cues. If, uh, he's
3 involved in a conversation with a couple of,
4 uh -- of adults in some sort of setting, uh, how
5 would that problem affect his ability to

6 communicate either in terms of, uh, understanding
7 information or being able to provide it to
8 others?
9 A Um, to some of -- I think it's getting beyond my
10 scope, because I'm not a speech and language

1·1 pathologist who is the person that would specifically
12 be working with Brendan on those aspects.

~
14 questions I have.
15 THE COURT: All right. Any, uh -- any
16 recross?
17 ATTONREY KRATZ: No, Judge. Although, uh,
18 I know that Ms. Schoenenberger-Gross had brought,

19 uh, a volume of records with -- with her. I didn't
20 know if Mr., um, Kachinsky intended to complete the
21 record by having those introduced, and I don't have
22 any -- any objection if he's going to do that.
23 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, I don't intend to
24 introduce them, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Uh, you may step down.
100
1 You want to give her those records back?
2 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Right.
3 THE COURT: Yeah, why don't you come back
4 here and pick up the records. Do you have any
5 further witnesses, Mr. Kachinsky?
7 THE COURT: Uh, gentlemen, I have
8 received -- Go ahead.
~ ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, the -- at any
10 hearing, especially at a, um, uh, hearing to
11 suppress statements, there would be the
12 opportunity to call the defendant, Brendan, as a
13 witness. It appears that Mr. Kachinsky is
14 choosing, uh, by a trial strategy or other
15 reason, not to do that. I'd ask the Court to
16 engage in a brief colloquy with Counsel, and,
17 perhaps, even Mr. Dassey as to their choice not
18 to do that. I think we have to complete the
19 record.
20 THE COURT: All right. Uh, Mr. Kachinsky,
21 you heard what Mr. Kratz said; correct?
22 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes, I have, Your
23 Honor.
24 THE COURT: Yeah. And you know you have
25 the opportunity to call your client at this point
101
1 should you choose?
2 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, I do, and,
3 uh, Mr. Dassey and I have discussed that.
4 THE COURT: You have had ample opportunity
5 to discuss it with him?
6 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes, I have.
7 THE COURT: He understands that he could

8 of fer testimonial inf orrnation today in this court
9 proceeding?
10 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes, he does.
11 THE COURT: And, uh, I don't want to invade
12 the lawyer/client relationship, but, presumably, for
13 one reason or another, you are choosing, and he is
14 choosing, not to do that.
15 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Correct, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. I -- I'm not going
17 to make an inquiry of the defendant.
18 ATTONREY KRATZ: That 1 s fine, Judge.
19 THE COURT: Urn, either of you have anything
20 else -- Both of you have submitted a number of,
21 uh -- or submitted in written argument form the
22 various, uh, cases and points of law that you think
23 the Court ought to be relying on here. I certainly
24 never would try to stop lawyers from arguing at the
25 close of any kind of hearing, but, uh, don't feel
102
1 compelled to. Um, Mr. Kratz?
2 ATTONREY KRATZ: Judge, I do have a brief
3 argument if the Court would -- uh, would entertain
4 that at this time. I'm certainly prepared if -- if,
5 um -- if the Court prefers
6 THE COURT: Sure.
7 ATTORNEY KRATZ: that we not do that,
8 -I can --
9 THE COURT: Well, that's fine, but
10 before before you argue, uh, for the record, I'm
11 going to, uh, number as Exhibit No. 5, I think, in
12 this case, we've got four exhibits here, the, uh
13 the items that we had stipulated to, or that you had
14 stipulated to at the, uh -- at the beginning of this
15 hearing, specifically, Exhibit 5, will consist of
16 the following:
17 A cover letter from Mr. Kratz dated, uh,
18 April 7, 2006.
19 And a cover letter, uh, will be used as
20 an inventory for a number of electronic
21 recordings that accompanied that letter.
22 Uh, additionally, a transcript of
23 excuse me -- the March 1, 2006, hearing, or -- or
24 interview, rather, with, uh, uh, that transcript,
25 consisted of pages 525 to 677.
103
1 Uh, Exhibit 5 will be closed out with a
2 cover letter from Attorney Kachinsky dated, uh,
3 April 28, 2006, with the transcript of the, uh,
4 March -- or of the February 27, 2006, interview
5 bearing pages numbered 439 to 512. Anything
6 else?
7 ATTONREY KRATZ: No.
8 THE COURT: Go ahead.
9 ATTONREY KRATZ: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 This is a a case that includes a very detailed
11 admission by a young man, uh, inculpating himself in
12 some very serious criminal conduct.
..
• 13 When this Court considers the
!
14 voluntariness of those statements, uh, the
15 Wisconsin and U.S., uh, courts that are based,
16 uh, in Wisconsin law, uh, suggest that the Court
17 need first find some improper police conduct, uh,
18 before the Court even does a balancing of the
19 defendant's personal characteristics.
20 And that becomes, uh, uh, important in
21 this case because the State argues there's
22 absolutely no improper police conduct that has
23 been suggested. Nothing by Mr. Kachinsky in his,
24 brief, uh, or his, uh, response memorandum, nor
25 anything elicited today that would rise to the
104
1 level of improper police conduct.
2 The interview on March 1 was clearly a
3 witness interview, not a suspect interview. And
4 it wasn't until, as this Court's reviewed that

5 interview, about halfway through, when Mr.
6 Dassey, himself, starts providing some very, uh,

7 disturbing details about, uh, his involvement and
8 Mr. Avery's involvement, uh, that more questions
9 were asked, uh, about that.
10 Some cases involve confessions and
11 admissions, and especially serious cases, even
12 homicide cases, uh, I don't think it's a stretch
13 to say there isn't any real criminal justice
14 advantage or justification, uh, in making those,
15 uh, confessions. And so when the Court wonders
16 why, or considers why, an individual, uh,
17 inculpates themselves, or confesses, or, uh,
18 tells the police that they were involved in real
19 serious behavior, the motive for those
20 confessions become im -- uh, important to
21 understand.
22 There can, of course, be emotional
23 reasons why people confess. I feel guilty, or
24 I'm going to feel better if I'm truthful and I'm
25 confessing about this. A demonstration of
105
1 remorse.
2 There can be a spiritual or moral reason
3 to confess. The confession being good for the
4 soul type of thing, or, uh, in a very base sense,
5 the practical reason to confess. If a person
6 thinks that the police are going to find out
7 anyway, or they already know what happened, they
8 hope to obtain some practical benefit in
9 cooperation or honesty.
10 But that, uh, number of reasons, or
11 combination of reasons, usually is why we're in
12 these circumstances., uh, in deciding, uh, why an
13 individual confesses. But, again, it's only if
14 those confessions or admissions are the product
15 of improper police pressures, or improper
16 strategies, uh, does the Court need to consider
17 whether that statement should be suppressed as
18 being involuntary.
19 The success in law enforcement's efforts
20 in obtaining truthful versions of events or, in
21 this case, obtaining confessions is what law
22 enforcement does. They try to get to the bottom,
23 uh, of what happened.
24 And, therefore, appellate courts, and
25 circuit courts before them, recognize and that
106
1 society benefits from sanctioning permissible
2 police strategies when encouraging a suspect to
3 take responsibility, or to allow accountability
4 for, uh -- for these acts.
5 When we compare what happened in the
6 Dassey case to other cases in Wisconsin, other
7 cases that have been sanctioned when deceit has
8 been used in those other cases, when suspects
9 have been lied to, when we've got the good cop,
10 bad cop, uh, strategy, when suspect 1 s been
11 confronted with physical evidence, even when it
12 doesn't exist, or when trickery, uh, occurs when,
13 uh, we invite suspects down to the police
14 station, all of those have been deemed to be
15 permissible. We don't have anything that even
16 approaches those tactics here.
17 When we consider and compare, uh,
18 permissible strategies to what was used here,
19 this is prac -- _practically a -- a warm and fuzzy
20 meeting with, uh -- with Mr. Dassey. And I don't
21 mean at all to diminish the seriousness of -- of
22 what happened, but I'm arguing, Judge, it isn't
23 even close. It's not even a close call.
24 There were no threats. There were no
25 violence. There were no specific promises. No
107
1 promises of leniency. And when Mr. Dassey's
2 expected and told by the officers that he's
3 expected to tell the truth, I think that's just
4 a -- a common statement of what these officers
5 believed would occur.
6 Under all of those circumstances, Judge,

7 when the Court does apply the totality of the
8 circumstances test, again, I believe there isn't
9 any improper police conduct. But should the
10 Court find that there were some subtle pressures
11 used when compared to Mr. Dassey, when compared
12 to his personal characteristics of being almost
13 17, which I would note for the Court in this case
14 includes original adult court jurisdiction, when
15 we consider his education level, his intelligence
16 as being just below average, and, certainly,
17 functioning adequately within a school setting,
18 his physical and emotional condition is not such
19 that, uh, it made anything involuntary.
20 And when he has prior police contacts,
21 when he demonstrates the ability to resist
22 suggestion, when he demonstrates a free and
23 unconstrained will, this Court should and must
24 allow these statements to be admitted. I'm
25 asking the Court deny Mr. Kachinsky's motion to
108
1 suppress these statements. Thank you, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Any response, Mr. Kachinsky?
3 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Um, yes, Your Honor.
4 In determining whether or not Mr. Dassey's statement
5 was voluntary, uh, the Court, as, uh, repeatedly,
6 uh, argued, has to consider the totality of the
7 circumstances and not look at the tactics that were
8 used, uh, in isolation in and of themselves.
9 Uh, certainly under the facts of this
10 case, if the person that was the subject of the
11 interrogation was 43-year-old 43 years old
12 instead of, uh, 16 years old, if he had
13 substantial criminal justice, uh, experience
14 instead of having none, uh, if he had average or
15 above average cognitive abilities, uh, instead
16 of, um, below average as documented by school
17 records from Mishicot and the testimony of
18 psychologists, uh, clearly the State would be,
19 uh -- be correct.
20 Of course, the person to meet those
21 opposite characteristics of Mr. Dassey is his
22 uncle, uh, Mr. Avery, but it's not Mr. Avery that
23 was the subject of his interrogation. The
24 subject of the interrogation and the questioning
25 was Brendan Dassey, and the fact that, uh,
109
1 Detective Wiegert chooses to characterize this as
2 a witness versus a suspect interview is not at
3 all determinative as to whether or not it was,
4 uh, voluntary or not.
5 Certainly, the Court's, uh, seen the
6 tapes, reviewed the transcripts, knows from its
7 own observations this was not the classic third
8 degree sort of, uh, interview that you'd see on,
9 uh -- on TV shows where someone is isolated in a
10 room with a couple of detectives, where there's
11 spotlights and suggestive questioning, and
12 things, uh, of that nature. But this is,
13 instead, uh, much subtler, uh, and, uh, from the
14 results, uh, much more effective means, of
15 interrogation of someone.
16 Uh, and I think it's important to listen
17 to specific wording, and the Court has, uh -- has
18 the benefit of the videotape, and I'm sure has
19 reviewed it and can see the context into which
20 those statements were made to Mr. Dassey on a
21 continuum starting with the 27th of -- of
22 February.
23 I think it's clear that when the police
24 decide to interview, uh, Mr. Dassey on the 27th
25 of February they certainly strongly had at least
110
1 a theory that he might have been involved in some
2 respects, and, to some extent, Mr. Dassey
3 confirmed that on the 27th when he indicated his
4 observations of seeing body parts in a, uh,

5 bonfire, which would have, at a minimum, perhaps,
6 implicated him in the participation in the
7 burning of a -- burning of a corpse, which is one
8 of the three charges that he's now, uh -- now
9 facing.
10 He was -- Uh, the police, both on
11 February 27, and, to an even greater extent on
12 March 1, uh, minimized the seriousness of the
13 trouble that Mr. Dassey, uh, was in, and not

\
14 having had any criminal justice experience
15 Mr. Dassey, uh, didn't have any reason to, uh,
16 not -- not believe them. They had -- they said
17 they would be an advocate for him, um, uh, go to
18 bat for him. Well, what, exactly, did that mean?
19 And what expectations did that create in Mr.
20 Dassey as to whether or not he'd be facing the
21 sort of trouble that he's facing, uh, at this
22 time?
23 And the Court, then, makes -- or, excuse
24 me, not the Court. But they make the statement
25 to Mr. Dassey, well, honesty will set you free.
111
1 The Court has seen the tape, seen the context
2 into which, uh, that particular statement was
3 made, uh, and it's not at all clear that that 1 s
4 a -- a reference to some sort of psychological

5 or, uh, spiritual freedom as opposed to the
6 physical freedom of not being surrounded by
7 police officers even in a soft, uh, interview
8 room and being subjected to questioning about
9 some of the most serious charges that anybody can
10 face, uh, in state of Wisconsin.
11 Um, so we ask the Court to look at all
12 the circumstances of this. Both Brendan's
13 characteristics in terms of his age, uh, his lack

'· ••\
14 of experience with the criminal justice system,
15 uh, and, urn, intellectual abilities, as well as
16 the unrealistic, uh, impressions that were
17 fostered upon him by continuous, uh, statements
18 made by both detectives and find that, under
19 those circumstances dealing with the suspect of
20 Brendan's characteristics, that those were, uh,
21 improper by giving him far greater expectations
22 of le_niency and favorable treatment than he was
23 entitled to receive, find that those statements
24 were involuntary and should not be admissible at
25 the trial in this case.
112
1 THE COURT: Any response?
2 ATTONREY KRATZ: No, Judge, nothing. Thank
3 you.
4 THE COURT: All right. Uh, the Court will
5 render a decision on this motion on May 12 at
6 9:00 a.m. At that time, or shortly after that, uh,
7 you have another motion filed here, Mr. Kachinsky,
8 relating to the property bond, we'll take that up as
9 well.
10 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Okay.
11 THE COURT: Uh, any further proceedings
12 today, gentlemen?
13 ATTONREY-KRATZ: Not for today, Judge.
14 Thank you.
16 THE COURT: All right. We're adjourned.
18
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25
113
)SS.


15 Dated this 29th day of August, 2006.
16
17
18
19 Je ffi K. Hau, RPR

20
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25
114
BRANCH 3
2
3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
4
PLAINTIFF, DECISION
5
6
BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
7
DEFENDANT.
8
10 DATE: MAY 12, 2006

Circuit Court Judge
12
APPEARANCES:
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
15
16 Attorney at Law
17
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
18 Defendant
Appeared in person.
19
20 * * * * * * * *

24
25
1
COPY·
1 THE COURT: Morning, counsel, morning
2 ladies and gentlemen. This is 06 CF 88. State of
3 Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey. Appearances,
4 please.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The State of Wisconsin
6 appears by Ken Kratz, Calumet County D.A.,
7 appearing as special prosecutor.
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The defendant appears
9 personally and with Attorney Len Kachinsky.
10 THE COURT: All right. Urn, we are here
11 today for a decision on a motion to suppress. Uh,
12 the defendant, Brendan Dassey, has brought this
13 motion requesting that the Court suppress statements
14 he made to Investigator Mark Wiegert with the
15 Calumet County Sheriff's Department and Agent Thomas
16 Fassbender of the Wisconsin Department of Justice.
17 The motion brought contends that the
18 statements made by Brendan Dassey were obtained
19 from him involuntarily and should, under the
20 applicable law, be suppressed. The motion was
21 heard in this courtroom last Thursday, May 4.
22 Court heard testimony from Investigator
23 Wiegert. It heard testimony from the defendant 1 s
24 mother, Barb Janda, and Kris
25 Schoenenberger-Gross, a school psychologist for
2
1 the Mishicot School District. The Court also
2 received, five exhibits during the course of the
3 hearing.
4 In addition, the Court has read the
5 relevant case law cited by the parties in their
6 briefs as well as a number of other pertinent
7 cases.
8 The Court has also reviewed the DVDs of
9 the interviews, read the transcripts and listened
10 to the audiotapes. The audiotape in the form of
11 a CD. Now, these electronic recordings are all
12 part of Exhibit 5. Based on those exhibits, that
13 testimony, the briefs, and arguments of Counsel,
14 the Court makes the following findings of fact:
15 Number one. The defendant, Brendan
16 Dassey, was born October 19, 1989, and was, at
17 the time of the police interviews in February and
18 March of 2006, 16 years of age.
19 Number two. At the time of the police
20 interviews, he was a student at Mishicot High
21 School enrolled in mostly regular classes, but
22 also in some special education classes. Testing,
23 it disclosed, an IQ level in the low average to
24 borderline range. There is no evidence that he
25 suffered from any emotional disorder which made
3
1 him unusually susceptible or vulnerable to police
2 pressures.
3 Three. Prior to his interviews which

4 are the subject of this motion, his only known
5 police contacts were on November 6 and
6 November 10, 2005, when he was questioned in

7 Marinette County about Teresa Halbach.
8 Number four. The parties have
9 stipulated to the noncustodial nature of the
10 police interviews with Brendan Dassey on
11 February 27, 2006, and March 1, 2006.
12 Hearing Exhibit No. 1 is a .Miranda
13 warning and waiver signed and initialed by
14 Brendan Dassey on February, uh, 27, 2006, at
15 3:21 p.m. And Exhibit 2 is a Miranda warning and
16 waiver signed and initialed by Brendan Dassey on

17 March 1, 2006, at 10:10 a.m.
18 Number five. Investigator Wiegert and
19 Agent Fassbender met with Brendan Dassey on
20 February 27, 2006, at Mishicot High School at
21 approximately 12:30 p.m. He was told by them
22 that he didn't have to answer any questions and
23 he was free to go whenever he wanted. Exhibit 5,
24 transcript page 440.
25 He was questioned for approximately an
4
1 hour and was again told he could stop answering
2 questions and could, quote, walk out anytime, end
3 quote. Exhibit five, transcript page 467.
4 At the close of that interview, he gave
5 the investigators a written statement. The
6 investigators both complimented him for giving
7 them a voluntary statement telling him they knew
8 how difficult it was to tell -- tell them the
9 details he divulged. The interview ended at
10 2:14 p.m. He returned to his eighth hour class
11 at Mishicot High School.
12 Number six. At approximately 3:00 p.rn.
13 on February 27, 2006, the same day of the earlier
14 interview, Brendan Dassey and his mother, Barb
15 Janda, met with the investigators at Mishicot
16 High School and agreed that Brendan Dassey could
17 do a videotape interview with the Two Rivers
18 Police Department.
19 Ms. Janda was asked if she wanted to be
20 present during the interview. She said it was
21 not necessary. And Brendan Dassey said he did
22 not care if his mother was present or not.
23 After he signed and initialed Exhibit 1,
24 the Miranda warnings and waiver, the
25 investigators interview Brendan Dassey about
5
1 certain events which he claimed occurred on the
2 night of October 31, 2005.
3 The interview lasted approximately 41
4 minutes and was conducted entirely in a
5 conversational tone of voice by the interviewers.
6 At no time during the interview did Brendan

7 Dassey appear visibly stressed or pressured by
8 the questions or conducts -- conduct of the
9 interviewers.
10 Number seven. On March 1, 2006,
11 Investigators Wiegert and Agent Fassbender sought
12 and received permission from Brendan Dassey's
13 mother, Barb Janda, to speak with Brendan. She
14 was to pick him up at the conclusion of the

15 interview. Following her grant of permission,
16 Investigators Wiegert and Fassbender picked up

17 Brendan Dassey at Mishicot High School at
18 approximately 10:05 a.m. and transported him to
19 the Manitowoc County Sheriff's office, stopping
20 on the way at Brendan Dassey's residence so he
21 could retrieve a pair of blue jeans that the
22 investigators wanted for evidentiary purposes.
23 Number eight. The conversation in the
24 car on the way to the sheriff's office was
25 electronically recorded except for the time spent
6
1 in Brendan Dassey's residence. The three arrived
2 at the sheriff's office at approximately 10:43
3 a.m. and went to a carpeted interview room
4 equipped with videotaping equipment.
5 Shortly after arriving in the interview
6 room and while the videotape equipment had been
7 activated, Brendan Dassey was asked by
8 Investigator Wiegert whether he remembered his
9 Miranda rights that had been read to him and
10 whether he still wanted to talk to the
11 investigators.
12 He responded in the affirmative to both
13 questions by saying, quote, yeah, unquote, and
14 nodding his head.
15 Uh, number nine. The interview between
16 Brendan Dassey and the two investigators lasted
17 approximately three hours during the course of
18 which Brendan Dassey made a number of inculpatory
19 admissions. At no time during the interview was
20 Brendan Dassey handcuffed or otherwise physically
21 restrained.
22 On several occasions during the course
23 of the interview the investigators offered soda,
24 water, or food to Brendan Dassey and asked him if
25 he wanted to use the bathroom. Throughout the
7
1 interview, Brendan Dassey was seated on an
2 upholstered loveseat.
3 Number 10. At various times during the
4 interview the investigators encouraged Brendan
5 Dassey to provide details to them by appealing to
6 his sense of honesty. Quote, honesty here is the
7 thing that's going to help you, end quote.
8 Exhibit 5, transcript page 541.
9 Quote, honesty is the only thing that
10 will set you free, uh, end quote. Exhibit 5, uh,
11 transcript 5 page 541.
12 Quote, come on Brendan, be honest. I
13 told you before that's the only thing that 1 s
14 going to help ya here, end quote. Exhibit 5,
15 transcript page 547.
16 Quote, we just need you to be honest
17 with us. Exhibit 5, transcript page 584.
18 These are but a few example of
19 admonitions to be honest made to Brendan Dassey
20 by the investigators. The entire interview,
21 including the admonitions, was done by both
22 investigators in a normal speaking tone with no
23 raised voices, no hectoring, or threats of any
24 kind.
25 Nothing on the videotape visually
8
1 depicts Brendan Dassey as being agitated, upset,
2 frightened, or intimidated by the questions of
3 either investigator. His demeanor was steady
4 throughout the actual questioning.
5 He displayed no difficulty in
6 understanding the questions asked of him. At no
7 time did he ask to stop the interview or request
8 that his mother or a lawyer be present. Instead,
9 he answered the questions put to him.
10 Sometimes he revised his answers after
11 being prodded to be truthful or being told by his
12 questioners that they knew his answer was either
13 incomplete or untrue and he should be honest.

14 These appeals to honesty made by the
15 interviewers were nothing more than a reminder to
16 Brendan Dassey that he had a moral duty to tell
17 the truth.
18 Number 11. On occasion, the

19 interviewers purported to know details which, in
20 fact, were not true or which represented
21 uncorroborated theories of the crime in which

22 they presented to Brendan Dassey as factually
23 accurate in order to draw information from him.
24 In the context of this interview, the Court finds
25 that this tactic of misleading Brendan Dassey by
9
1 the interviewers occasionally pretending to know
2 more than they did was neither improper nor
3 coercive because it did not interfere with
4 Brendan Dassey's power to make rational choices.
5 Number 12. No frank promises of
6 leniency were made by the interviews to
7 interviewers to Brendan Dassey. He was told,
8 quote, we can't make any promises, but we'll
9 stand behind you no matter what you did, end
10 quote. Exhibit 5, transcript page 541.
11 Quote, I want to assure you that Mark
12 and I are both in your corner. We're on your
13 side, end quote. Exhibit 5, uh, transcript page
14 540.
15 Quote, we don't get honesty here. I'm
16 your friend right now, but I gotta -- I gotta
17 believe in you, and if I don't believe in you, I
18 can't go to bat for you, end quote. Exhibit 5,
19 page 547.
20 Quote, we're in your corner, end quote.
21 Exhibit 5, page 547.
22 These and similar statements made by the
23 interviewers were an attempt to achieve a rapport
24 with Brendan Dassey and convince him that a
25 truthful account of events would be in his best
10
1 interest.
2 Based on those findings of fact, based
3 on the record, the exhibits in this matter, the
4 Court concludes, as a matter of law, the
5 following:
6 Under a totality of the circumstances
7 test, which I'm using here, given Brendan
8 Dassey's relevant personal characteristics as set
9 forth in the previous findings and on the record
10 in this case, the State has met its burden by
11 showing by a preponderance of the evidence that
12 the statements made by Brendan Dassey to
13 Investigators Wiegert and Fassbender, and which
14 are the subject of this motion, were the product
15 of Brendan Dassey's free and unconstrained will
16 reflecting deliberateness of choice. In short,
17 they were voluntary statements.
18 Accordingly, the defendant's motion to
19 suppress these statements is denied. And, I
20 might add as a -- as a footnote or, perhaps, more
21 than a footnote here, the parties stipulated to
22 the fact that this was not -- either of these
23 interviews, the 27th of February, March 1 of
24 2006, were noncustodial interviews.
25 Uh, the Court, after reviewing the
11
1 record, has determined that even had they been
2 custodial interviews, that the appropriate
3 Miranda warnings were given, were understood by
4 this defendant, and, thus, had they been

5 custodial -- had they been custodial interviews,
6 uh, the result, uh, that the statements were
7 voluntary would remain unchanged.
8 Now, uh, Exhibit 5, which I've alluded
9 to in the preface of of the findings, as well

10 as during the course of the findings, is, as I
11 noted at the last hearing, uh, an in camera, that
12 means in chambers, uh, exhibit. The Court is

13 going to seal that exhibit, uh, and it will
14 remain sealed until the trial.

15 The Court believes, given the continuing
16 media scrutiny in this matter, that the
17 dissemination of Exhibit 5, uh, would have,
18 conceivably, a tendency to taint a jury pool.
19 It's my understanding -- And, gentlemen, correct
20 me if I'm wrong. First you, Mr. Kratz, you have
21 no objection to proceeding in that fashion?
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's correct, Judge.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Kachinsky?
24 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: I don't object either,
25 Your Honor.
12
1 THE COURT: All right. Anything else on
2 this before we move on to -- And I'm going to ask
3 you, Mr. Kratz, to draft the order.
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I will -- I will do that,
5 Judge. Uh, Your Honor, I I know that the Court
6 was reading from a -- a a prepared statement. Is
7 it possible that I can get a copy of that to, uh,
8 amend or attach that to the order, or would the
9 Court just prefer I indicate in the order, for
10 reasons stated on the record.
11 THE COURT: Urn, why don't you put, for
12 reasons stated on the record. Or, I suppose, in the
13 alternative, you can ask the already overworked
14 court reporter to to type a transcript here.
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I won't do that, Judge.
16 I'll just, uh, draft a generic order. That's
17 fine. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: All right. Urn, the next item,
19 I believe, Mr. Kachinsky, is yours. It's -- it's a
20 motion. Do you want to be heard on your motion to,
21 uh, revise the terms of of the bail?
22 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Urn, yes, Your Honor.
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, before we get into
24 the -- to the merits of that, I --I wonder if I
25 could be heard just -- just briefly on, uh on
13
1 that, uh -- on that procedure. Um, because the,
2 um -- one of the factors on any motion to modify
3 bond, uh, directs the Court to consider the, uh,
4 strength of the State's case. Because of, uh, this
5 morning's rulings, uh, it is the State's position
6 that the strength of the State's case has become,
7 uh, significantly, uh, solidified.
8 Uh, let me also tell the Court that, um,
9 and Mr., uh, Kachinsky, uh, is to be, uh, made
10 aware of this, that additional, uh, forensic
11 conclusions were received. Additional reports
12 were received two days ago in our office which,
13 again, need to be revealed to this Court under
14 seal.
15 Lastly, Judge, the Manitowoc County, uh,
16 Corporation Counsel in a similar request made by
17 Mr. Avery, uh, made their position known, and I
18 don't know in this case if they've been invited
19 to do so.
20 With all of those factors, Judge, and
21 with the, uh, bond modification on the State's
22 part being at least an option, uh, I'm wondering
23 whether the Court would grant the State, uh, an
24 opportunity, perhaps five to seven days, to, uh,
25 file those matters with the Court to include, in
14
1 camera, uh, the additional information that, uh,
2 we have received, uh, and if the Court would be
3 willing, uh, to allow a, uh, more inclusive bail
4 modification hearing again in the next five to
5 seven days.
6 That seems to, uh, address those matters
7 that I cannot relay to the Court in open court
8 today, uh, and would provide this Court an
9 opportunity to reflect upon, or at least
10 consider, the relative, uh, strength of the
11 State's case in the bail modification motion.
12 THE COURT: When were the the -- When
13 was the forensic evidence of -- of which you make
14 mention received?
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The 10th. Two days
16 ago, Judge.
17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kachinsky?
18 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Well, Your Honor, this
19 motion was filed, I believe, on the 24th or 25th
20 of -- of April, 2006. Uh, State's aware, from
21 having prosecuted the Avery case as well, at least
22 as to, uh, the values of the property that's
23 that's involved, uh, and, uh, other factors relating
24 to bond other than the recent forensics evidence,
25 uh, as to whether or not the motion would be granted
15
1 or not. Um, I don't know if the State's forensic
2 evidence would add that much more to what the
3 Court's already ruled today in terms of the
4 admissibility of Mr. Dassey's statements.
5 So, it would be our -- our preference
6 that the Court, uh, proceed with the motion
7 and -- and make a ruling today.
8 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you,
9 Mr. Kratz, is it your intention to, in effect,
10 request that -- that, uh, bail be revoked here and
11 no bail be allowed at all?
12 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No, Judge. But I am going
13 to be asking that bail be increased, uh, having the
14 Court now consider the relative strength of the
15 State's case. That's in -- that's information I
16 didn't have until three minutes ago.
17 THE COURT: All right. Uh, the -- the
18 Court the Court is inclined, uh -- Since the
19 State says it -- it -- it has received some
20 additional information that that have -- may have
21 a bearing on the, uh, uh -- on the outcome of the
22 motion, the Court is inclined to -- to, uh to
23 adjourn this particular motion today, Mr. Kachinsky,
24 and -- and set, uh, uh -- set a near date for -- for
25 hearing on it.
16
1 Uh, I don't have my calendar with me.
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I can file my motion by
3 Wednesday, if that's okay, Judge.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: If the Court can give me
6 five days to do that, I -- I can certainly have that
7 to the Court and Mr. Kachinsky.
8 THE COURT: So that would be, uh, Wednesday
9 the 17th. Um, all right. Could, um -- Well, I
10 think what we'll -- we'll -- we'll do, uh,
11 following -- uh, following business in this court
12 today is -- is, uh, discuss a motion date in
13 chambers. I have to, uh -- I have to take a look at
14 the calendar and you, gentlemen, probably do have to
15 look at yours as well, and there's some other
16 matters we should be discussing.
17 So, I am going to, uh, grant the the
18 State's motion to adjourn, order that, uh
19 order that the revised motion or information be
20 filed by Wednesday, May 17. Um, any other
21 matters to come before the Court today?
22 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Your Honor, perhaps,
23 just to avoid unnecessarily calling, a -- a witness,
24 I don't know if the State disputes at all the value
25 of the property that's involved, I could submit to
17
1 the Court, uh, extra copy of the appraisals that
2 were made and, I believe, perhaps, submitted in the
3 Avery case.
4 If that's not the issue, if the issue is
5 this additional evidence regarding the State's
6 case, if that -- at least that portion of the,
7 uh, motion was taken care of, uh, that would,
8 perhaps, facilitate some of the inconvenience
9 that this delay is going to cause us.
10 ATTORNEY KRATZ: How about if we do this,
11 Judge, I'm willing to share with Mr. Kachinsky my,
12 uh -- my feelings on that after going through the
13 documents and at least alert him whether or not
14 we'll need a witness at that next hearing.
15 THE COURT: Well, I -- I noticed in his
16 motion -- in Mr. Kachinsky's motion -- he said that
17 he had sent you some documentary, uh, proof as to
18 values that he was claiming in motion.
19 ATTORNEY KRATZ: He -- he brought some with
20 him today as well.
21 THE COURT: Yeah. Well, is there any
22 reason we can't just have those marked and be part
23 of the record?
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No. That's fine.
25 THE COURT: Yeah. Let's do that. And the
18
1 bailiff was kind enough to bring a calendar here so
2 let's take a look. How about Friday? The
3 afternoon? Friday, May 26?
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State's available, Judge.
5 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: The only thing -- Uh,
6 I've got something in Chilton, but, perhaps, that
7 can be, uh, taken care of, Your Honor.
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I'll see what I can do,
9 Judge, to --
10 THE COURT: How about 1:15?
11 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Sure.
12 THE COURT: Anything else, gentlemen?
13 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I have to, uh,
14 place on the record, and receive the Court's
15 acquiescence, as the information that I intend to
16 provide certainly has not been publicly disclosed
17 and would, uh, I believe, be the kind of information
18 that the Court, uh, likely would not want disclosed.
19 May I file my motion to amend under seal as well?
20 THE COURT: All right. It it will be
21 received as -- as an in camera motion, or at least
22 the exhibits to the motion, and -- and anything in
23 the motion that, uh, would be revelatory will be
24 received as an -- an -- as an in camera motion.
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's fine, Judge.
19
1 THE COURT: Anything further?
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No.
3 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: And, Your Honor, the,
4 uh, appraisal's been marked. I don't know if we're
5 going to -- I didn't see what letter you --
6 THE CLERK: One.
7 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: As Exhibit 1.
8 THE COURT: Okay. The appraisal will be,
9 uh, Exhibit 1 and it will be part of the -- the
10 motion, uh, and, uh, Mr. Kratz, do you have any
11 objection to the appraisal?
13 THE COURT: I mean, you're not
14 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Not to not to its
15 receipt for this hearing, Judge.
16 THE COURT: All right. All right.
17 Anything else?
18 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No. Thank you, Judge.
19 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: No.
20 THE COURT: Could I see you both in about
21 ten minutes in chambers, please?
23 THE COURT: Thanks. We're adjourned.
25
20
)SS.


15 Dated this 29th day of August, 2006.
16
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21
BRANCH 3
2
3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
4
5
VS. Case No. 06 CF 88
6
BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
7
DEFENDANT.
8
10 DATE: MAY 26, 2006

Circuit Court Judge
12
APPEARANCES:
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
15
16 Attorney at Law
17
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
18 Defendant
Appeared in person.
19
20 * * * * * * * *
24
25
1
COPY
1 THE COURT: Afternoon, Counsel. Afternoon,
2 ladies and gentlemen. This is the matter of State
3 of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey. It's 06 CF 88.
4 We were last in court on May 12, 2006. Court ruled
5 on a motion brought by the defense to suppress a
6 number of statements. After the Court's ruling, we
7 started to discuss another motion that the defense
8 had brought relating to, uh, surety for bail. Uh,
9 the district attorney at that time, or the special
10 prosecutor, I should say, uh, requested time to file
11 his own motion, and I'll -- I'll get into that in --
12 in -- in just a minute.
13 I've had a chance to -- to talk to

14 counsel in chambers prior to coming on the bench,
15 and before we start with this hearing, r•m going
16 to address myself to the defendant. Mr. Dassey,
17 would you pull that microphone close, please?
18 Uh, Mr. Dassey, counsel and I -- and I'm
19 ref erring here in -- in this case both to defense

20 counsel and to the special prosecutor -- talked,
21 as I mentioned a moment ago, in chambers before
22 we came here, and I'm going to ask you a question
23 and I want you to answer it for me, okay?
24 THE DEFENDANT: Um-hmm.
25 THE COURT: You have to answer out loud.
2
2 THE COURT: Are you requesting that your
3 current counsel be replaced by someone else?
5 THE COURT: And you 1 ve made that request of
6 him, have you?
8 THE COURT: You understand that in the
9 event he is replaced by someone else, you can't
10 simply go on requesting that new counsel be
11 appointed for you?
13 THE COURT: That, essentially, you may, and
14 I'm not saying you will, you may get only one shot
15 at this
17 THE COURT: you understand that?
18 Mr. Kachinsky, uh, have you -- And I'm not asking
19 you to reveal anything here that would violate any
20 lawyer-client relationship. But, uh, you are, I
21 take it, aware that there is -- that -- that -- that
22 uh, uh, Mr. Dassey had raised some questions; is
23 that right?
24 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Um, yes, Your Honor at
25 the end of a discussion we had earlier this week.
3
1 THE COURT: Do you believe that, based
2 on -- And, again, I'm not asking you to -- to -- to
3 reveal anything that would violate the rule of
4 confidentiality. But do you believe that this
5 request is his free and unfettered choice?
6 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Um, I'm not sure about

7 that, Your Honor. I have, uh, received information
8 that there has been an ongoing campaign by
9 Mr. Dassey's co-defendant to, uh, encourage him to,
10 um, obtain new counsel, that, uh, might be more to
11 his co-defendant 1 s, uh, liking.
12 THE COURT: So, you are, without saying so
13 directly, suggesting that others may be, uh, trying
14 to control the -- the determination of who
15 represents whom here?
16 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: I -- I believe there's
17 at least a reasonable possibility of that, Your
18 Honor, because my interactions with Mr. Dassey have

19 been quite pleasant. We haven 1 t had any, um,
20 substantial arguments or anything of that nature.
21 THE COURT: All right. I 1 rn going to turn
22 to the special prosecutor. Do you wish to be heard,
23 Mr. Kratz?
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Well, Judge, eventually I
25 do. If, in fact, there's going to be a request of
4
1 the Court for substitution of counsel, and if, uh,
2 Mr. Kachinsky, uh, is indicating to the Court, which
3 I believe he is, that there 1 s a possibility of some
4 unexpected influence on Mr. Dassey or on this
5 decision for the appointment, uh, of counsel that

6 comes from somebody other than Mr. Dassey, that is
7 certainly something that the State has an interest,
8 uh, in being heard on.
9 Uh, if, uh, the Court agrees that this
10 is something that is appropriate for an
11 evidentiary hearing, I'm going to ask the Court
12 to direct Mr. Kachinsky to submit, on
13 Mr. Dassey's behalf, a written request for
14 substitution of counsel giving the State an

15 opportunity, uh, not only to investigate, but to
16 be heard, and that in a very, uh, short time
17 frame the Court does schedule an evidentiary
18 hearing to decide on that request.
19 THE COURT: All right. The Court is is

20 reluctant at this point to -- to proceed even on
21 this motion when we have the expression of the
22 defendant that -- that he, uh, wishes replacement
23 counsel. Whether this is really his expression or
24 whether it is -- it is something that is coming from
25 elsewhere, I don't know. But before, Mr. Kachinsky,
5
1 I think you -- you can or should be replaced, uh, I
2 think we ought to have some sort of evidentiary
3 hearing.
4 I would request that you submit, then,
5 in in writing, uh, a request for -- for
6 substitution. And -- and, again, this is a
7 request for substitution. Uh, this isn 1 t
8 necessarily guaranteed to be granted. But the
9 Court, uh, in the past, uh, has -- has given
10 great leeway to that. On the other hand,
11 there -- there may be some other issues here that
12 should be explored before there is any successor
13 counsel appointed if, indeed, there is.
14 Uh, with that said, uh, I -- I 1 m
15 unwilling to proceed today on -- on this motion.
16 Uh, I'm the -- as I pointed out to you, I think
17 once the -- the defendant says that, uh, he
18 wishes someone else for ill or good reason, uh, I
19 don't believe that, uh, this Court ought to be
20 proceeding. Anything else, gentlemen?
21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No, Judge, just the
22 scheduling of that hearing.
23 THE COURT: How about Friday, June 2, the
24 afternoon?
25 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: I've got a couple of,
6
1 uh -- I've got a felony sentencing in Oshkosh. I
2 could ask the judge to, uh, move it if the Court
3 wants me to.
4 THE COURT: Would you do that, please?
5 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Okay.
6 THE COURT: How about you, Mr. Kratz?
7 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Uh, I think that, uh
8 I think that would be available. Certainly
9 Wednesday or Thursday I know it, uh, would be
10 easier but I can -- I can make it work, Judge, on
11 the 2nd.
12 THE COURT: Yeah. I have trials scheduled
13 all day on Wednesday and Thursday. Otherwise, I 1 d
14 certainly try to accommodate the both of you, but,
15 uh, I would propose 1:30, Friday afternoon, June 2?
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That will be fine, Judge.
17 THE COURT: Uh, in the event the defendant,
18 uh, is no longer of the position that he enunciated
19 here today, we'll simply proceed with the -- the
20 motions on bail at that time. All right? Anything
21 else?
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I don 1 t believe so, Judge.
23 Thank you.
7
l STATE OF WISCONSIN )
)SS.
15 Dated this / t'f'f.. day of ~Llec41nh..Lu, 2007.
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BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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PLAINTIFF, DECISION & MOTION
5 HEARING
8 DEFENDANT.
9
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DA"rE: JUNE 2, 2006
11
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ
SPECIAL PROSECUTOR
16 LEONARD D. KACHINSKY
Attorney at Law
Defendant
20 * * * * * * * *
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1
COPY
1 THE COURT: This is the State of Wisconsin
2 vs. Brendan R. Dassey, 06 CF 88. Appearances,
3 please, counsel?
5 Calumet County District Attorney Ken Kratz,
6 appearing as special prosecutor in the case.
7 Joining me this afternoon is Torn Fallon from the
8 Department of Justice.
9 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: The defendant

10 appears personally with Attorney Len Kachinsky.
11 THE COURT: All right, uh, we last were in

12 this courtroom Friday, May 26, last week. Uh, at
13 that time we had scheduled here a motion on bail.
14 Actually, two competing motions on bail. One from
15 the defense asking that property be posted -- be
16 allowed to be posted as a surety for bail in this
17 instance, and the other from the prosecution asking
18 that, actually, bail be increased. At the -- at the
19 commencement of that proceeding, uh, I asked, uh,
20 Mr. Dassey whether or not -- because it had been
21 discussed in chambers prior to coming in here, uh,
22 whether or not he desired new counsel.
23 Uh, in response to that inquiry he told
24 me he did. Uh, at that point I adjourned the
25 hearing to come back here today to flush out the
2
1 record, specifically, by finding out from
2 Mr. Dassey, uh, what his objections to court
3 counsel were, if any, and, uh, whether or not
4 those objections rose to the level that
5 substitute counsel could be appointed.
6 Uh, does that comport with your
7 understanding, gentlemen? First, you,
8 Mr. Kachinsky?
9 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, Your Honor,
10 it does.
11 THE COURT: Special prosecutor?

13 THE COURT: Mr. Dassey, would you pull that
14 microphone a little closer to you, please? Remember
15 at the -- the last time you were in court I asked
16 you whether or not you wanted someone to replace
17 Mr. Kachinsky?
19 THE COURT: And you responded at that time
20 that you did?
22 THE COURT: Is that your answer today? If
23 I were to ask you the same question, do you want

24 someone to replace Mr. Kachinsky, what would your
25 answer be?
3
2 THE COURT: How do you Basically, how do
3 you get along with Mr. Kachinsky?
4 THE DEFENDANT: Not bad.
5 THE COURT: Does "not bad" mean good or
6 what?
8 THE COURT: You guys fight when you're
9 together?
11 THE COURT: You argue?
13 THE COURT: Can you talk with him?
15 THE COURT: Does he listen to you when you
16 talk?
18 THE COURT: Does he explain things to you?
20 THE COURT: Does he explain things to you
21 in a way that you understand them?
22 (No verbal response.)
23 THE COURT: Are you still talking to him?

25 THE COURT: Do you think he's doing what he
4
1 believes to be in your best interest?
2 THE DEFENDANT: Sort of.
3 THE COURT: And "sort of" mean yes, no, or
4 a little of each?
5 THE DEFENDANT: Little of each.
6 THE COURT: You think he understands your
7 case?
9 THE COURT: Is there any way in which the

10 two of you are -- are in any serious conflict? Any
11 serious difference of opinion?
12 THE DEFENDANT: Not that I know of.
13 THE COURT: Tell me why you want to change
14 lawyers at this point.
15 THE DEFENDANT: Because I think he -- that
16 he -- I think he -- he -- that I think he thinks I 1 rn
17 guilty.
18 THE COURT: And that's the reason that
19 you -- you want to get a different lawyer?
21 THE COURT: Did someone else bring this up
22 to you? The -- the notion that you should have a
23 new lawyer?
24 THE DEFENDANT: Just my mom.
25 THE COURT: And -- and she urged you to
5
1 find different counsel?
3 THE COURT: Is there any other reason,
4 other than the one that you -- you have given me,
5 that you you think Mr. Kachinsky should be
6 replaced by someone else?
8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kachinsky, you
9 have, uh, filed an affidavit, uh, to which you've
10 attached -- or I shouldn't say attached but
11 you've also filed at the same time a -- a short
12 memorandum of law. I'm going to just touch upon a
13 couple of the -- the items that are in your
14 affidavit, although we all understand that since the
15 affidavit's been filed it is a matter of record.
16 You note in the affidavit that you are

17 approximately one of four lawyers in Wisconsin
18 certified as a criminal trial specialist by the
19 National Board of Trial Advocacy; is that

20 correct?
21 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: What is the National Board of
23 Trial Advocacy?
24 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, the National Board
25 of Trial Advocacy is an ABA certified organization
6
1 that tests, uh, attorneys that wish to apply for
2 certification so they can place it in advertisement
3 and other purposes, uh, in their state, uh -- under
4 state codes. Uh, they have to be qualified as a
5 criminal trial specialist. There's requirements for
6 a certain amount of jury trial experience. There 1 s
7 also educational requirements in terms of continuing
8 education, uh, requirements for references, and,
9 also, a -- a check with the reputation among the
10 local judges. Uh, based on that, uh, then
11 they'll -- they'll certify you. They also have
12 certifications for other types of specialties, uh,

13 such as civil trial specialties and family and
14 probate law.
15 THE COURT: Just for the record, ABA means
16 American Bar Association; does it not?
18 THE COURT: Uh, in your opinion, is this an

19 honor to be certified by the National Board of Trial
20 Advocacy?
21 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, it's not so
22 much an honor as it is just a recognition of, uh,
23 considerable experience and, uh, certain level of
24 talent in the area.
25 THE COURT: According to your affidavit, as
7
1 of May 26, 2006, you had spent over 140 hours
2 representing Mr. Dassey; is that correct?
4 THE COURT: You've hired an investigator to
5 assist you in the preparation of this case; have you
6 not?
7 THE DEFENDANT: I have, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: You note, in the course of the
9 affidavit on page two, that there has not, at least
10 in your opinion, been a breakdown of the attorney-
11 client relationship.
12 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, correct, Your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: This was -- I think this
15 affidavit is dated, uh, May 30. That isn't -- isn't
1u long ago. Has there been any change in that?
17 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, I talked to
18 Mr. Dassey, uh, earlier this week. The tone of our
19 discussion was the same as it was before, and pretty
20 much as he just described it to the Court.
21 THE COURT: All right. Uh, you say, as
22 well, that -- that Mr. Dassey appears to understand
23 the -- the issues in this case on an intellectual
24 level; is that correct?
25 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Yes, Your Honor.
8
1 THE COURT: And that your -- your
2 interaction with him, the tone of your
3 conversations, has generally been casual and
4 relaxed?
5 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, Your

6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: Uh, has there been any
8 irreconcilable differences between the two of you?
9 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Not at this point.
10 THE COURT: Have you received any notice of
11 retention of private counsel for Mr. Dassey?

12 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: I have not, Your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: Uh, are you, uh, in the event
15 Mr. Dassey so desires, prepared to try this case on
16 his behalf?
17 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Um, yes, Your Honor, I
18 would be.
19 THE COURT: Uh, all right. That ends the
20 Court's, uh -- Court's inquiry. And -- and I'm now
21 going -- I'm now going to rule.
22 Um, Mr. Dassey has requested that he
23 have substitute counsel appointed for -- for
24 Mr. Kachinsky. In order for that to occur in
25 Wisconsin, the defendant in this case,
9
1 Mr. Dassey, Dassey must show that there exists a
2 factual basis for appointing a successor counsel.
3 In fact, the defendant, who has appointed
4 counsel, which is what Mr. -- which -- which is
5 what Mr. Kachinsky is, must show that there is,
6 quote, good cause, end quote, uh, to warrant
7 substitution of his current lawyer. And and,
8 uh, that -- that's set forth in a number of
9 Wisconsin cases. I -- I'm taking it, for for
10 this hearing, from a case called State v. Haynes
11 at 118 Wis. 2d page 21 at page 27.
12 Uh, another case, uh, sets forth a
13 number of examples of good cause, and that case
14 is State v. Wanta, and that's 224 Wis. 2d 679 at
15 703.
16 Now, I'm not suggesting that these are
17 exclusive examples or illustrations of good
18 cause, but, frankly -- and I think I've read
19 almost all of this -- all the cases that touch on
20 this -- uh, I haven't really seen any cases that
21 embodied other than these factors or these
22 examples I'm about to -- to run through.
23 One of them is attorney -- attorney
24 incompetency. Another is conflict of interest
25 between the lawyer and client. Another is an
10
1 irreconcilable conflict or difference. And
2 that -- and another is the complete breakdown in
3 communications between the lawyer and his client.
4 Additionally, uh, the ca -- case sounds
5 a cautionary note by pointing out that, uh,

6 exchanging or substituting counsel can't be
7 manipulated in such a way as to interfere with
8 the administration of justice.
9 So, where does it get us based on --

10 based on these facts and using the -- the legal
11 standard that I said applies here?

12 Now, let's look at attorney
13 incompetency. Here, we have a lawyer in
14 Mr. Kachinsky who is one of a handful of

15 Wisconsin attorneys who is certified as a, uh,
16 criminal trial specialist by a -- a acknowledged

17 national board, namely, the National Board of
18 Trial Advocacy.
19 He spent over 140 hours since his
20 appointment on this matter in March in early
21 March of 2006 preparing the case.
22 I've had an opportunity to evaluate not
23 only his court appearance, uh, but his written
24 product, uh, brief, uh, motions, pleadings, and I
25 don't think, uh, anyone would even remotely
11
1 suggest that there's any showing here of
2 incompetency.
3 Uh, conflict of interest between lawyer
4 and client. I don 1 t think that exists. Uh,
5 there's not even a threshold question. By way of
6 illustration, uh, Mr. Dassey originally had an
7 attorney who, uh, determined at one point or
8 another that he was related to, uh, some members
9 of the -- the victim's family in this case. And
10 that's a conflict of interest. Obviously, he
11 requested that he be removed. That was good
12 cause on his part to be removed, and he was
13 removed and replaced by Mr. Kachinsky.
14 The next one is irreconcilable conflict
15 or difference. Urn, I don't see or hear anything
16 that tells me that there is an irreconcilable
17 conflict or difference. Uh, Mr. Dassey says he
18 has, uh he has some reservations about counsel
19 because of Mr. Dassey's perception of -- of what
20 counsel may or may not think about his guilt.
21 Well, that, in and of itself, and there
22 is case law on this, does not constitute good
23 cause. It also, uh, is part, I would, uh -- I
24 would suggest of a substantial number, if not a
25 majority of -- of criminal law cases, so, I don't
12
1 think that -- I don't think that there is any
2 irreconcilable conflict or difference.
3 Uh, lastly, for purposes of this
4 discussion, I'm going to use the -- the factor
5 the complete breakdown in conununication. There
6 didn't seem to be much, if any, breakdown. There
7 may be a difference of opinion about one thing or
8 another.
9 But, here, uh, Mr. Dassey was -- was

10 very candid, uh, said he could talk to him, he
11 said, uh, Mr. Kachinsky -- Mr. Kachinsky
12 explained things to him. Um, that appeared that

13 Mr. Kachinsky's take on it is that the
14 relationship is pretty cordial. Mr. Dassey did
15 nothing to gainsay that. Uh, so, there certainly
16 isn't, I don't believe, any breakdown, complete
17 or otherwise, in communication.
18 With that said, uh, the Court is -- is
19 going to find here that there has not been good
20 cause shown for substitution of -- of this
21 attorney. Uh, accordingly, I'm going to treat
22 this request as a motion. Accordingly, I'm going
23 to, uh, deny Mr. Dassey's motion to substitute
24 someone for, uh, Mr. Kachinsky as his counsel.
25 Now, we started out on May 12 discussing
13
1 a couple -- or discussing one bail motion. Uh,
2 the matter was set for a hearing. The defense
3 was prepared to proceed. The defense actually
4 started to proceed. I think we, uh, marked an
5 Exhibit, Exhibit No. 1.
6 Uh, during the course -- or, actually,

7 at the very beginning of the process, special
8 prosecutor raised an objection to proceeding and

9 said that, uh, prosecution wanted to file a
10 motion asking that bail be increased in this
11 instance.
12 Uh, the defense motion was to use
13 property owned in Marinette County by the
14 grandparents of this defendant as a property bond
15 surety for the defendant's two hundred fifty
16 thousand dollar bail.
17 The property, according to Exhibit 1,
18 had been appraised, uh, with a fair market value
19 of three hundred fifty-two thousand, six hundred

20 dollars. The, uh, local tax authorities had
21 valued it at, three hundred thirty-two thousand,
22 uh, six hundred dollars. It -- it -- it's owned
23 by Allen -- Allen and Delores Avery.
24 Um, the special prosecutor, uh, after
25 the hearing, filed, on May 17, uh, a motion
14
1 requesting that bail be raised from two hundred
2 fifty thousand to five hundred thousand. The
3 motion was received under seal. After reviewing

4 the motion, this Court sees no reason why the
5 motion should remain under seal. The Court is,
6 uh, going to lift that portion of its order that
7 placed the, uh -- placed the motion under seal.
8 I'm also going to request that Counsel,
9 when he -- he talks about this motion, uh,

10 discusses the factual basis for -- for the
11 items -- or for the, uh, material found in it.
12 Uh, I should note as well that Manitowoc
13 County, through its corporation counsel, Steven

14 Rollins, has written a letter that is a matter of
15 record in this court, uh, requesting that the
16 Court not grant the motion of the defendant.

17 Specifically, uh, the defendant's motion
18 envisions Manitowoc County as being the mortgagee
19 for any mortgage that would be, uh, taken against
20 the property in Marinette County.
21 Gentlemen, have I accurately, uh,
22 summarized -- ! 1 11 start with you, Mr. Kratz
23 summarized the issue that's here before the Court
24 today?
15
3 THE COURT: All right. What I'm going to
4 suggest we do is, Mr. Kachinsky, you can, uh, should
5 you wish, make whatever argument you want on your
6 motion. Uh, Mr. Kratz, you can respond. And at,
7 uh -- following your own response, uh, make an
8 argument on your motion and you can reply to his
9 response. Go ahead.
10 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Well, Your Honor,
11 we've asked the Court to permit, uh, Mr. Dassey to
12 be released on a property bond, and we certainly
13 acknowledge, uh, the concerns expressed by, uh,
14 Corporation Counsel Rollins about a property bond
15 not being as easily, uh, uh, dealt with, uh, in the
16 event that there's a violation and they wish to fork
17 out the forfeiture of the bond because it is real
18 property and not, uh -- not cash, uh, that can
19 simply be moved from one account, uh, into another.
20 Um, and that because of those logistical
21 problems that would exist in terms of ever
22 forfeiting the bond, should there be a -- a
23 violation or desire by the State, uh, to do so,
24 is why we suggested that the amount of the lien
25 be three hundred thousand dollars rather than two
• 16
1 hundred fifty thousand dollars to compensate for
2 possible attorney's fees and other costs that
3 Manitowoc County might have in the event that
4 Manitowoc that the State had to foreclose the
5 bond because of a violation.
6 I think in terms, though, of -- of
7 securing, uh, Mr. Dassey's, uh, presence in
8 further proceedings and compliance with the
9 conditions of bond that, uh, basically tying up
10 his grandparents' property in, uh -- in
11 Marinette, uh, is just as effective as, uh, tying
12 up two hundred fifty thousand dollars in a trust
13 account that's managed by the clerk of courts,
14 uh, of Manitowoc County.
15 Uh, the property involved, unlike the,
16 uh, property in this county, which is a salvage
17 yard, um, doesn't have nearly the environmental
18 concerns that, uh, would exist when, uh, Steve
19 Avery made a similar motion, uh, in his case,
20 which the Court, uh, is well aware of.
21 And, in fact, the paperwork we submitted
22 to the Court regarding the form of the mortgage,
23 etc., was taken from that case. It provided, uh,
24 to us, with the assistance of, uh, Steve Avery's,
25 uh, attorneys, uh, I believe by increasing the
17
1 amount of the bond and tying up that significant
2 amount of property, which had been valued higher

3 than the present bond, that, uh, it's quite, uh,
4 realistic to believe that that would serve as a
5 significant incentive for Mr. Dassey, uh, to, uh,
6 comply with the law, show up in court, and not,
7 uh, violate other terms of bail, uh, should the
8 Court, uh -- Court grant that.
9 Uh, he's a he's a a 16-year-old

10 with, uh, com1nunity plenty of community ties
11 and someone who feels a great deal of affection
12 toward his, uh, grandparents and wouldn't, uh,
13 uh, I think, with any malice or forethought, do

14 anything that would cause them to forfeit, uh,
15 property worth over quarter of a million dollars
16 up in Marinette County.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz?
18 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. Some of
19 the factors that argue against a, uh, property bond,
20 uh, also argue for the increase in the cash bond. I
21 will defer to Mr. Rollins, as he's much more
22 familiar with the, uh, process by which a property
23 bond is, uh, converted, uh, to cash. Uh, since the
24 value of the property remains an open question, uh,
25 Mr. Rollins 1 , uh, opinion, I think, should be given,
18
1 uh, a lot of, uh -- a lot of deference.
2 The, uh, primary factor, however, is
3 that the State believes that property, rather
4 than cash, would be insufficient to secure
5 Mr. Dassey's appearance at, uh, future court
6 appearances. And, therefore, cash should be
7 required.
8 The grandparents, if they're so

9 inclined, had the ability to go to a bank, and if
10 the property is really worth what it's worth,
11 they can convert that property, uh, by way of
12 mortgage to cash and, uh, have that posted, but,
13 the property, uh, not belonging to Mr. Dassey
14 himself, the State believes is, uh, insufficient

15 to secure his appearance at future court
16 appearances.
17 That, of course, is the primary purpose
18 of bond under Chapter 969. That is to secure,
19 uh, future court appearances, uh, and because of
20 the nature of the offense, because of the risks
21 that I'll talk about, uh, in just a moment, uh,
22 the State agrees with the corporation counsel for
23 Manitowoc that the property bond is, uh,
24 insufficient and the Court should require that it
25 remain a cash bond.
19
1 Cash bail, however, uh, sometimes is
2 necessary to secure appearances. That has been
3 already determined by this Court. The factors
4 that the Court considers when determining the
5 amount of the cash bail includes the gravity of
6 the offense and the penalties the defendant
7 faces, uh, if, in fact, he 1 s convicted. Uh,
8 those, by the way, haven't changed since our last
9 time, uh, here in court.
10 Uh, but the Court should also consider
11 the degree of violence involved, the character
12 and strength of evidence. This Court, as I
13 heard, uh, this afternoon, uh, has, uh, ordered
14 the State, uh, to, uh, release the information by
15 way of factual basis that we've included in -- in
16 our, uh, motion, uh, and I will, uh, do that at
17 this time because the the new information
18 that's been developed does go not only to the
19 degree of violence that's involved in this case
20 but also to the character and strength of
21 evidence.
22 First of all, this Court ruled, on the
23 1st of, uh, March, that the statements given by,
24 uh, Brendan Dassey, or I should say the
25 statements that he made on the 1st of March, are,
20
1 in fact, admissible. As I argued, uh,
2 previously, that solidifies, uh, the relative,
3 uh, uh, strength and, uh, position of the case as
4 far as proceeding.
5 However, I've also included for the

6 Court by way of -- of, uh, specific information
7 in my motion that there have been new forensic
8 findings, uh, specifically in a report received
9 by the, uh, D.A.'s office. Uh, the report is
10 dated the May 8 has been shared with, uh, Mr.,
11 uh, Kachinsky, and, also, uh, Counsel in, uh, the
12 co-defendant's case.
13 Uh, this Court is now aware that on the
14 2nd of March a bullet fragment was recovered from

15 the garage of the property belonging to Steven
16 Avery. This Court may recall that in
17 Mr. Dassey's statement, Mr. Dassey's admission,
18 uh, he indicated that Mr. Avery, as part of the
19 taking the life of Teresa Halbach, uh, used a

20 firearm, uh, in the, uh, garage area.
21 With that statement having been given,
22 uh, this Court is aware that a search warrant was
23 sought, was obtained, and was executed on the 1st

24 and 2nd of March at the Avery, uh, property.
25 And, in the Avery garage, as I mentioned, a
21
1 bullet fragment, uh, was recovered. That bullet
2 fragment was submitted to the Wisconsin Crime
3 Laboratory for DNA analysis. And, in fact, a DNA

4 profile was recovered from that bullet fragment.
5 We now know that Teresa Halbach's DNA, uh, was
6 found on that bullet fragment taken from the
7 Avery garage.
8 That, of course, is significant
9 evidence, significantly corroborates Mr. Dassey's

10 statement, uh, as to, uh, the, uh, manner, uh, of
11 homicide, uh, and it does go directly to the
12 strength and character of the evidence.

13 Mr. Dassey also mentioned during his
14 admission on, uh, the 1st of March, that, uh,
15 Mr. Avery, uh, opened the hood of, uh, Teresa

16 Halbach's SUV. Thereafter, law enforcement
17 officials processed the hood latch of the SUV.
18 Again, a DNA profile was developed from the hood
19 latch and was found to be a positive match for
20 that of Steven Avery.
21 Once again, Judge, these are new
22 forensic findings that, uh, corroborate not only
23 Mr. Dassey 1 s statements, but go to the strength

24 of the evidence, uh, that is available to the
25 State.
22
1 Lastly, Judge, there was a new statement
2 provided by Brendan Dassey to law enforcement
3 officials on the 13th of May. After this Court
4 ruled on the 12th of May the admissibility of

s Mr. Dassey's statements, Mr. Dassey, uh, while
6 inviting law enforcement to meet with him,
7 provided new and important details, uh, as to the
8 homicide and surrounding circumstances.
9 Mr. Dassey himself, on the 13th, indicated that
10 he and co-defendant, Steven Avery, planned the
11 homicide of Teresa Halbach. That is, that they
12 targeted Teresa Halbach several days prior to
13 October 31.
14 He and Mr. Avery met, discussed not only
15 the, urn, manner in which the homicide would
16 occur, but who the victim would be. They
17 targeted Teresa Halbach, and, in fact, uh, as
18 Mr. Avery 1 s initial statement Excuse me. As
19 Mr. Dassey's initial statement, uh, may have, uh,
20 suggested, that he simply walked into, uh, a
21 circumstance on the 31st, out of Mr. Dassey's own
22 mouth on the 13th of May, we now know that that
23 wasn't true. This was a premeditated act.
24 Didn't just happen across this, uh, crime being,
25 uh, committed.
23
1 Mr. Dassey, on the 13th also, uh,
2 indicates that the location of the homicide, uh,

3 was the garage rather than the, urn, bedroom,
4 which again provides in more detail as to
5 mechanism and location of death. And, finally,
6 more details were provided as to mutilation, uh,
7 of the, uh, victim's corpse.
8 This Court has to consider, when

9 deciding what the appropriate amount of cash bail
10 to be, uh, risks. Uh, there is a risk of flight
11 that the State argues has increased. There's a

12 risk of harm not only to Mr. Dassey himself by
13 himself, but from others not wishing Mr. Dassey
14 to be available to testify, if necessary, in

15 future court proceedings, not just his own, but
16 in other matters that he may be required to
17 testify in. Risk of manipulation from external
18 sources. Tampering with the attorney-client
19 relationship. Decisions that are helpful to
20 persons other than Brendan Dassey, I think
21 Mr. Kachinsky's already alleged, and is a risk,
22 that this Court can and, I think, should
23 consider, lastly, the risk to the general public
24 is something the Court can and should consider.
25 Given now, Mr. Dassey's statement that
24
1 this was a premeditated crime, that it was
2 planned, that they targeted the victim, the
3 violence and the cruelty exhibited, uh, in this
4 series of events, the State believes now requires
5 or justifies the Court increasing cash bail from
6 two hundred fifty thousand dollars to five
7 hundred. The state believes that amount

8 necessary to secure Mr. Dassey for future court
9 appearances.
10 That's all the State has, Judge. Thank
11 you.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Kachinsky.
13 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Your Honor, in terms
14 of whether or not the present amount of bail is, uh,
15 sufficient or not to assure Mr. Dassey's presence at
16 trial, or to ensure compliance with the issues of
17 bond, the Court needs to compare the circumstances
18 that existed at the time it was originally set when
19 he was arraigned or March 3 of, uh, this year, uh,
20 to the present, and to see what the new evidence as
21 been cited by Mr. Kratz really adds in terms of the
22 likelihood, of, uh, conviction and eventual
23 sentence, uh, based on -- uh, to Mr. Dassey.
24 When Mr. Dassey first appeared before a
25 court and bond was, uh, scheduled at two hundred
25
1 fifty thousand dollars, uh, the Court was aware,
2 uh, and it was contained in the Criminal
3 Complaint, that there was a videotaped, uh,
4 confession that, uh, was sufficient to support
5 the three charges that were, uh -- were in the
6 Complaint.
7 Confession, of course, uh, if it's, uh,
8 valid and jury believes it, and doesn't believe
9 that it was, uh, coerced or the result of some
10 type of coaching by -- by law enforcement
11 officials, this is probably about the strongest
12 type of evidence, uh, you could ever have, uh, in
13 a criminal case.
14 There were, of course, at that time
15 other circumstances that would tend to, perhaps,
16 show that Mr. Dassey was the perpetrator of these
17 offenses in terms of his, uh, location at his
18 residence, uh, his presence in the area around
19 the time of the, uh, offense, uh, and so forth.
20 The question is, does this new evidence,
21 cited by the State, really add very much to that?
22 It doesn't really change, uh, any evidence that
23 didn't already exist; that Mr. Dassey lived in
24 the vicinity of Mr. Avery, knew Mr. Avery, or
25 that, uh, Mr. Dassey had made statements on
26
1 videotape, uh, claiming to have been involved in
2 the offenses that, uh, Mr. Avery, uh, had
3 previously been, uh, charged with.
4 Uh, his character, uh, before the bond
5 was originally set, was someone who never had any
6 contact with law enforcement other than previous,
7 um, meetings with law enforcement officials in
8 connection with this, uh, investigation. The
9 Court saw those later on when the motion to
10 suppress was -- was litigated and it really
11 doesn't add very much, uh, to that as well.
12 Uh, whatever degree of -- of planning
13 may have existed, uh, it's still rather clear
14 that the, uh, impetus behind this was that it did

15 occur, that Steven Avery and not, uh, Brendan
16 Dassey. The relative ages of the individuals are
17 known by the Court. The Court has seen
18 Mr. Dassey's, uh, interaction with others in
19 those videotapes, which the Court reviewed in the
20 motion to suppress, uh, to see that Mr. Dassey is
21 not someone who's a leader or aggressor in terms
22 of violence against, uh, other individuals.
23 I don't believe that the, uh, State's
24 additional evidence has added much to beyond what
25 already existed at the time bond was originally
27
1 set. So we'd ask that the bond amount, uh,
2 remain where it is.
3 THE COURT: All right. Uh, the Court has
4 before it two motions, and -- and I'll treat them as
5 they came in.
6 First is the motion on the part of the
7 defendant to be permitted to use as surety for
8 two hundred fifty thousand dollar bail property
9 in Marinette County that has been, uh, valued at
10 I think it was between three hundred thirty and
11 three hundred fifty thousand dollars. The
12 defendant proposes executing a mortgage in favor
13 of Manitowoc County in the sum of three hundred
14 thousand dollars to, uh, secure Mr. Dassey's two
15 hundred fifty thousand dollar bail.

16 Uh, as both counsel have noted, uh, bail
17 is a -- a bail setting is something of a
18 balancing act under Wisconsin law. Specifically,

19 under Chapter 969, uh, our statutes. The Court
20 in setting bail here has taken a look at the
21 nature, number, and gravity of the offenses, the
22 potential penalty the defendant faces and, uh,
23 the violence of the acts involved, and came up,
24 as a result of that, with two hundred -- with
25 bail of two hundred fifty thousand dollars.
28
1 Uh, the statutes permit under certain
2 circumstances that property be posted in lieu of
3 cash. Uh, and that is precisely what, uh, the
4 defendant is proposing to do in this case. It's
5 not the defendant's property, it's his
6 grandparents' property. Uh, and that becomes
7 part of the -- the calculus in here but, uh, not,
8 uh, from my perspective a great part of the
9 calculus.
10 Uh, I believe that under the -- the case
11 of State v, Gassen at -- at 143 Wis. 2d 761,
12 specifically, at page 763, uh, the Court is
13 permitted to reject the use of a surety bond in
14 lieu of cash, and the Court can base that
15 rejection, and I'm going to do so, on the

16 seriousness of the offenses, the severe possible
17 penalties, and under those circumstances I think
18 that, uh -- I think that in this instance cash
19 is -- is going to have to be necessary.
20 Therefore, I deny the motion to -- to lower bail.
21 Now, Mr. Kachinsky -- Excuse me.
22 Mr. Kratz has filed a motion and he has asked
23 for, uh, an increase in bail from two hundred
24 fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars.
25 Uh, 969.08 of the statutes the -- the --
29
1 the title of it says, grant reduction increase or
2 revocation conditions of release. Uh, subsection
3 two talks about violations of the conditions of
4 release or the bail bond constitutes the grounds

5 for the court to increase the amount of bail or
6 otherwise alter the conditions of -- of -- of
7 release.
8 Now, I -- I'm not suggesting that that's

9 the only time, obviously, that -- that one can do
10 this because, uh, uh, there are other instances.
11 However, I think there has to be some

12 some significant change, uh, at least arguably
13 significant change, in -- in in the -- uh, in
14 the matter before I am going to be granting an

15 increase in the bail.
16 In this case, uh, the special prosecutor
17 has told us that the -- the -- they have since,
18 uh, discovered forensic evidence that, uh, tends
19 to support, I suggest, uh, some of the admissions
20 made by this defendant, and also tie together a
21 little bit more completely the case and, as well,
22 this defendant apparently has -- has made some
23 other -- other admissions.
24 While this is true, and from the
25 standpoint of the texture of the case it -- it
30
1 changes, uh, I don't think qualitatively the case
2 changes. The same -- same crimes are being
3 charged. Same penalties are -- are -- are uh,
4 the defendant's going be subject to the -- the
5 same penalties. I don't think, in short, that
6 the grounds offered here today by the special
7 prosecutor, uh, constitute sufficient grounds to
8 increase the bail, and accordingly, I'm
9 denying -- denying the special prosecutor's
10 motion as well.
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, should the, uh,
12 defendant be in a position, whether himself or,
13 more, uh, typically, uh, by a -- a family member,
14 uh, wish to, uh, post cash bail, uh, is the Court,
15 uh, going to, uh, fashion, uh, some nonmonetary
16 conditions of bond that might be appropriate.
17 Because of the -- the threats that I

18 mentioned about, uh, manipulation, uh, and, uh,
19 other, uh, factors, uh, the State believes things
20 like, uh, place of, uh, residence, uh, other
21 conditions of release all become important, and
22 should that eventuality occur, uh, I would simply
23 ask that the State be given an opportunity to be
24 heard by the Court in fashioning a nonmonetary
25 condition.
31
1 THE COURT: And that may well be the case
2 and you'll certainly have a chance to -- to make
3 that motion. Anything else from you, Mr. Kachinsky,
4 today?
5 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: No. I would agree
6 with Mr. Kratz that if the bond is, uh -- if posted,
7 there should, perhaps, be a held -- hearing held
8 very promptly to determine if there's any additional
9 nonrnonetary conditions that ought to be set.
10 THE COURT: All right. Um, each of you
11 can draft the -- the order denying the other's
12 motion. Anything else today, gentlBrnen?
13 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Nothing, Judge. Thank
14 you.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
32
)SS.
15 Dated this ici_ day of l\eum~..t.J, 2007.

16
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20
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33
BRANCH 3
2
3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
4
5
6
BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
7
DEFENDANT.
8
10 DATE: AUGUST 25, 2006

Circuit Court Judge
12
APPEARANCES:
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
On behalf of the State of Wisconsin~
15
16 Attorney at Law
17
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
18 Defendant
Appeared in person.
19
20 * * * * * * * *
24
25-
1
COPY
2 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey. It 1 s Case
3 No. 06 CF 88. Appearances, please?
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The State of Wisconsin
5 appears by Calumet County District Attorney Ken
6 Kratz. I'm appearing as special prosecutor.
7 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Defendant appears
8 personally with Attorney Len Kachinsky.
9 THE COURT: All right. Originally, this
10 date and time was set as a scheduling conference.
11 New issues have arisen since we set this date. The
12 Court intends to treat all the matters it believes
13 it has before it now.
14 Um, on August 14, 2006, Attorney
15 Kachinsky filed with the Manitowoc County Clerk
16 of Courts 1 s office a demand for speedy trial.
17 Under Wisconsin Section 971.10 {2), the trial of
18 a defendant shall commence within 90 days from
19 the date the defendant demands in writing his
20 trial. That demand was filed, as I said, on
21 August 14, 2006. Therefore, I'm setting the
22 trial in this matter to -- for November 1 through
23 the 17, 2006.
24 Prior to this demand for speedy trial,
25 the Court had set February 5, 2007, as the
2
1 beginning date for the trial. In light of Judge
2 Willis 1 decision to try State v. Avery, a case
3 filed approximately four-and-a-half months before

4 this case, uh, commencing on February 5, that
5 time period is no longer available. While I have
6 set November 1, 2006 as the start date for this
7 case, that trial time may be subject to a motion
8 for continuance, or continuances, depending on
9 circumstances.
10 There's also a motion for change of
11 venue under 971.22 filed by the defendant on
12 March 17, 2006. That motion was supported by
13 Mr. Kachinsky's affidavit detailing why he didn't
14 think the defendant could get a fair trial in
15 Manitowoc. Essentially, the affidavit said he
16 couldn 1 t get a fair trial because of the nature
17 and extent of the pretrial publicity not only
18 associated with this case but with the case of
19 State v. Steven Avery.
20 The Court sets, uh, September 14, 2006
21 at 8:30 a.m. as the date and time for hearing
22 that motion. Again, understanding that, uh --
23 depending on circumstances, that time may have to
24 be changed.
25 On August 15, 2006 the Court received
3
1 appropriate for us to appoint you to these types
2 of case. Judge Fox will be provided with a copy
3 of this letter. You have the right to appeal
4 this decision pursuant to Administrative Code PD
5 1.06(2). A written notice of appeal must be
6 received by me within 30 days.
7 That letter is actually signed by the
8 State Public Defender Nicholas Chiarkas.
9 Uh, I received it, uh, in conjunction
10 with a letter sent to me. And I 1 ll read that
11 letter:
12 Dear Judge Fox: Please find enclosed a
13 copy of a letter sent to Mr. Kachinsky advising
14 him that we have removed him from our Class A
15 felony certification list. We have taken this

16 unusual action based on his actions in the
17 Brendan Dassey case. We no longer feel it is
18 appropriate for him to provide representation in
19 these types of cases to public defender clients.
20 If you have any questions about our action,
21 please contact me.
22 And that is signed, uh, Deborah Smith,
23 who is the Director of the Assigned Counsel
24 Division of the State Office of Public Defender.
25 In response to that, Attorney Kachinsky
5
1 has filed a motion to withdraw as counsel. That
2 motion which is part of the record in this matter

3 notes -- And I'm not going to go through the
4 entirety of the motion but I'm going to note a
5 few things. Uh, among the factors the
6 undersigned attorney believes the Court should
7 consider are the following:
8 One, alleged inadequate performance of
9 existing counsel.
10 Two, whether or not the alleged
11 inadequate performance of counsel had an adverse
12 impact upon the defendant.
13 Three, the history of outside forces
14 seeking to secure withdrawal of existing counsel.
15 Four, the wishes of the defendant and
16 his mother that existing counsel continue to
17 represent the defendant.
18 Five, the impact of new counsel upon the
19 defendant's demand for a speedy trial.
20 And, six, public confidence in the
21 administration of justice.
22 Mr. Kachinsky supported that motion with
23 what I'll describe as a very thorough affidavit.
24 In that affidavit -- And, again, I'm not going to
25 read the affidavit word for word. I 1 m going to
6
1 summarize it. And when I'm done summarizing it,
2 I'm going to ask Mr. Kachinsky if I fairly
3 characterized it and ask him if he has anything

4 further to add.
5 What he discusses in the affidavit is as
6 follows:
7 Number one, his background as a defense
8 lawyer, much of which was placed on the record at
9 a hearing held on June 2, 2006 when Brendan
10 Dassey, uh, said he sought to replace Mr.
11 Kachinsky as his court appointed counsel.
12 Two, his belief that others have been
13 seeking to replace him as counsel. He
14 specifically -- specifically mentions one of
15 Steven Avery's attorneys as one who suggested to
16 the defendant's mother that Attorney Kachinsky
17 should be replaced.
18 Three, he mentions the services that he
19 has provided the defendant as well as the
20 interaction with the defendant.
21 Four, he sets forth his rationale for
22 permitting the defendant to be interviewed on
23 May 13, 2006 in his absence. Specifically, he
24 says that his investigator interview -- excuse
25 me -- that his investigator interviewed .the
7
1 defendant on May 12, 2006 and obtained, quote,
2 new information, end quote, from the defendant,
3 some of which related to physical evidence which

4 might be destroyed if other parties became aware
5 of it.
6 Attorney Kachinsky had a scheduled army
7 reserve drill that weekend so he gave the
8 defendant the option to speak with authorities
9 either on May 13, 2006, the date of his reserve
10 drill and for which he was unavailable, or May
11 17, 2006, the first day he was available.
12 The defendant chose to have the
13 interview on May 13, 2006. Attorney Kachinsky
14 made arrangements to have his investigator
15 present at the interview. The interview was
16 limited to clarifications -- and, again, this is
17 from Mr. Kachinsky's affidavit -- clarifications
18 of Mr. Dassey 1 s March 1, 2006 interview, and
19 Attorney Kachinsky would be available by cell
20 phone to answer any questions.
21 Subsequent to the interview,
22 Mr. Kachinsky reviewed the tapes and a
23 transcript. He found the investigators had
24 complied with the agreed upon conditions.
25 The affidavit then alludes to the letter
8
1 from the public defender's office, uh, suggesting
2 the public defender may have learned of the May
3 13, 2006 interview from counsel for Steven Avery.
4 Attorney Kachinsky also opines that the

5 public defender's letter of B -- of August 14,
6 2006 may have been written to, in his words, and
7 I 1 m quoting, maximize negative publicity, end
8 quote.
9 He points out that the decertification
10 is prospective, that means forward, and,
11 therefore, does not apply to this case. He
12 questions the state public defender's conclusion
13 that his nonappearance at the May 13, 2006
14 interview was, quote, indefensible, end quote.
15 Uh, he does this by citing to federal court
16 practices where in some instances counsel need
17 not be present during certain meetings and
18 debriefings of their client.

19 Finally, he notes that both the
20 defendant and his mother have requested that he
21 remain on the case as defendant's attorney.
22 Before I talk to Mr. Kachinsky, uh, I
23 would like to point to, uh, one thing. I would
24 like to correct his assertion on page three of
25 the affidavit where he says, referring to the
9
1 May 13 interview, quote, however, the information
2 provided did not appreciably increase the
3 strength of the State•s case against Dassey. The

4 Court made such a finding on June 2, 2006 when it
5 denied the State's motion to increase the amount
6 of the bond, end quote.
7 The Court made no such finding on, uh,
8 June 2, 2006. What the Court found -- And the
9 Court has not seen the interview nor read a
10 transcript of it. But what the Court found was
11 that the interview may have changed the texture
12 of the case. I think it was the -- the special
13 prosecutor's point that the interview as well as
14 some additional evidence that had been educed,
15 uh, since March 1 had, in effect, and he didn't
16 say this but I will, made a good case better.
17 Uh, I believe I said, and I reviewed the
18 transcript, that the -- I thought that the -- the
19 interview of May 13, based on what I saw in the
20 special prosecutor's petition supporting his
21 motion to -- to increase bail, may have changed
22 the texture of the case but the case
23 qualitatively remained the same. The same crimes
24 were charged and the same penalties applied to
25 the crimes that were charged.
10
1 I should point out that Mr. Kachinsky,
2 uh, supplemented his affidavit with a curriculum
3 vitae of his investigator. Additionally, he
4 supplemented that with an affidavit from the
5 investigator which I received by fax yesterday.
6 Now, I'm going to ask you,
7 Mr. Kachinsky, have I accurately summarized your
8 motion and affidavit?
10 you have.
11 THE COURT: Is there anything -- Uh, you
12 better turn your mike on. I
14 the Court --
15 THE COURT: Hit the button.
16 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: There we go.
17 THE COURT: Yeah.
18 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, the Court's --
19 uh, Court's summarization, uh, is accurate, yes.
20 THE COURT: Is there anything that you wish
21 to add today?
22 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, yes, Your Honor, I
23 would. Um, and in particular, uh, regarding item
24 number ten on page five, wishes of -- of the
25 defendant and his mother, uh, at the time that this
11
1 was composed and written, I had spoken to Mr. Dassey
2 last Friday and also last -- and also to his -- him
3 and his mother, uh, Sunday, uh, at that time that
4 was their wishes that I remain on the case.
5 Uh, subsequently, uh, yesterday morning
6 approximately 11:00 or so I received a call from
7 TV-11 indicating that there had been a phone call
8 they had received from Barbara Janda indicating
9 that they had changed -- or at least that Barbara
10 Janda had changed her mind as to what, uh,
11 Brendan wished to do regarding my continued, uh,
12 representation. Uh, they came to my office to
13 play the tape and, indeed, uh, according to the
14 Barbara Janda tape I listened to, uh, she no
15 longer believed -- or at least stated the same
16 thoughts on that issue as she did on the evening
17 of, uh, Sunday.
18 So, that -- that appears to have
19 changed. I briefly spoke to Barb Janda, uh, just
20 before court and she conf irrned nothing had
21 changed since yesterday. I've not, uh -- And
22 I -- excuse me -- just spoke, to, uh, Brendan a
23 couple minutes ago and he also indicated that
24 he'd changed his mind since, uh, we spoke on
25 Friday and Sunday of last week. So that has
12
1 changed.
2 Um, as a result of that, Your Honor, um,

3 as to what my personal wishes are in the case,
4 uh, frankly, I was willing to continue on with
5 this case, and without a lot of vehement, uh,
6 objection, uh, prior to that incident, uh, if

7 Brendan Dassey had confidence in me, uh, as his
8 attorney, I was more than willing to continue in
9 spite of all the, uh, hubbub, um, in the media
10 and with the State Public Defender 1 s Office and,
11 uh, everything else.
12 However, in light of Mr. Dassey 1 s wish,
13 uh, to get a new attorney, uh, that changes my
14 position. I think in a case, uh, as serious as

15 this, that, um, Mr. Dassey should, uh, have an
16 attorney that he has, uh -- has confidence in.
17 In addition, it's unreasonably dis --
18 difficult from my standpoint to, um, effectively

19 represent a client whose mind on various issue
20 changes, um, as often as Mr. Dassey's, uh, does,
21 and I believe it would probably, in light of
22 that, be in his best interests now, uh, to, uh,
23 get a new attorney even though I feel my
24 representation has been, uh, certainly adequate
25 in a constitutional sense and, uh, up to and
13
1 including more recent, uh, motions that have been
2 filed that he asked me to.
3 But because, uh, he now wishes me to
4 withdraw and because, whatever the cause might
5 be, it might be loss of confidence caused by the,
6 uh, State Public Defender letter or whatever,
7 that I think it would best that he start over
8 with a new attorney. The Court, of course,
9 decides contrary, uh, that's -- that's the
10 Court's prerogative. But that's my personal
11 desire.
12 THE COURT: All right. Would you give
13 Mr. Dassey the microphone, please? Mr. Dassey, you
14 were here on May 26, 2006 and June 2, uh, 2006, and
15 each of those times I asked you if you wished to
16 have new counsel appointed for you. On each of
17 those occasions you said, yes. Do you remember
18 that?
20 THE COURT: Uh, Mr. Kachinsky, in his
21 affidavit, says at the time at least that the
22 affidavit was constructed that you wished him to
23 remain on the case. Was that true?
25 THE COURT: Uh, he also says that you may
14
1 have changed your mind. So, I'm going to ask you,
2 what is your wish as of today?
3 THE DEFENDANT: That I want him off the
4 case.
5 THE COURT: You remember you and I had a
6 discussion of that on June 2? I asked you a number
7 of questions? You recall that?
9 THE COURT: Is there any particular reason
10 that you want him off the case?
11 THE DEFENDANT: That I think he's not
12 helping me very much.
13 THE COURT: Are you telling me that you
14 don't think he is rendering you the assistance you
15 think you ought to be getting?
17 THE COURT: Do the two of you still get
18 along?
2·0 THE COURT: Any arguing? Fighting?
22 THE COURT: Does he listen to you when you
23 tell him something?
25 THE COURT: Was there anything about the
15
1 letter from the public defender -- Did you see that
2 letter incidentally?
4 THE COURT: And someone talked to you about
5 it? Was there anything about that that upset you?
7 THE COURT: That that wasn't a -- a
8 cause for upset, huh?
10 THE COURT: Basically, you think that he
11 isn't acting in your best interest? And I don't
12 want to put words in your mouth. But is Uh, let
13 me rephrase that. Do you think he's acting in your
14 best interests?
15 THE DEFENDANT: I don't get what you're
16 saying.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Do you think he's on
18 your side?
19 THE DEFENDANT: Not really.
20 THE COURT: And that's because he doesn't
21 listen to you?
22 THE DEFENDANT: Well, he listens to me
23 but --
24 THE COURT: Doesn't do what you want him to
25 do?
16
2 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kratz, at this
3 stage is there anything that you wish to add to the

4 record?
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Your Honor, as I
6 previously, uh, noted to the Court, I think the
7 record, uh, needs to, uh, include the fact that, uh,
8 decertification by the public defender's, uh,
9 office, if, in fact, uh, that occurs, that, of

10 course, can be withdrawn. But, if, in fact, that is
11 the result, uh, does not amount to any, urn,
12 ineffective assistance, at least from a -- a
13 constitutional, urn, basis, we'd certainly need to
14 have an outcome before that could ever be
15 determined.
16 This Court also is aware that, uh,
17 regarding the appearance of propriety, that is,
18 if the Court, uh, decided to act under its
19 supervisory authority, uh, that the State, uh,
20 was requesting, uh, an evidentiary hearing, not
21 only as to the circumstances surrounding the
22 taking of the, uh, May 3, uh, statement, urn, but
23 what investigation, if any, the State Public
24 Defender, uh, performed in corning to their, uh,
25 indefensible representation conclusion.
17
1 Uh, also that, uh, this Court
2 understands the State's concern as to
3 Mr. Kachinsky 1 s performance, or the appearance of
4 his performance, having an implication on the
s admissibility of that, uh, May 13 statement, this
6 Court understands that we will need a hearing,
7 urn, regardless, on, uh on that particular
8 issue.
9 And so, um, I now hear Mr., um, Dassey,
10 uh, although not citing any specifics as to what
11 Mr. Kachinsky won't do for him, uh, hear his, um,
12 stated belief that Mr. Kachinsky is not on his
13 side. It is the defendant's, uh, Sixth Amendment
14 right, after all, and obviously if this Court is,
15 uh, persuaded that Mr. Dassey 1 s making this
16 decision, uh, of his own free will, that it's
17 freely, voluntarily, without, uh, coercion or,
18 um, anything along those lines from family
19 members or outside influences, then the Court
20 certainly is free to grant, uh, Mr. Dassey's
21 request and, in turn, Mr. Kachinsky's, uh, motion
22 to withdraw. Other than that, Judge, the State
23 has no further position. Thank you.
24 THE COURT: All right. I -- I believe I
25 understands -- understand the State's position. I'm
18
1 not necessarily sure -- In fact, I don't agree with
2 it. I don't agree with the position the State has
3 with respect the evidentiary hearings on this
4 matter. Uh, I do understand that, uh, most, if not
5 all, ineffective assistance of counsel motions
6 are -- are held after the matter is over so there is

7 a result that one looks at. But I think we have
8 something a little bit different here.
9 Uh, Counsel is, of course, correct. The
10 Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as well
11 as Article I, Section VII of the Wisconsin -- the
12 Wisconsin Constitution guarantee a defendant,
13 such as Mr. Dassey, in criminal cases the right
14 to counsel.
15 Uh, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a case
16 called Jfheat v. The United States, at 486 U.S.
17 153, specifically at page 159, said, while the
18 right to select and be represented by one's
19 pref erred attorney is comprehended by the Sixth
20 Amendment, the essential aim of the amendment is
21 to guarantee an effective advocate for each
22 criminal defendant rather than to ensure that a
23 defendant will be inexorably represented by the
24 lawyer whom he prefers. End of the quote.
25 Now, ffheat was a case involving a court
19
1 overriding a defendant•s desire for a specific
2 person as counsel. Incidentally, a privately
3 paid, uh, attorney. It has a different factual
4 context than the case that is before us today.
5 Nonetheless, I believe in the body of
6 the case it identifies a number of the courts'
7 and this Court's institutional concerns.
8 Concerns which I believe are applic -- applicable
9 here despite the factual differences in the

10 cases. Uh, those concerns are -- are synthesized
11 or brought together in a Wisconsin case called
12 State v. Love at 227 Wis. 60 at, uh, page 81 and,
13 uh, it says as follows:
14 First, the court's institutional
15 interest is in ensuring that criminal trials are
16 conducted within the ethical standards of the
17 profession.
18 Second, the court's institutional

19 interest is in ensuring that legal proceedings
20 appear fair to all who observe them.
21 Third, a court's institutional interest
22 is that the court's judgments remain intact on
23 appeal and be free from future attacks over the
24 adequacy of the waiver or fairness of the
25 proceedings.
20
1 This Court has previously denied this
2 defendant's request to replace Attorney Kachinsky
3 because the Court did not believe good cause had
4 been shown as required by law.
5 Uh, if we remember back to the June 2
6 hearing, I alluded to a case called State v.
7 Wanta at 224 Wis. 679, specifically at, uh, page
8 703, which enumerated some examples of good cause
9 that would permit the -- permit the substitution
10 of counsel. Attorney incompetency, conflict of
11 interest, irreconcilable differences, complete
12 breakdown in communication.
13 Now, these are just illustrations.
14 These are not an exhaustive list of what
15 constitutes good cause. But it has to be said
16 that the same showing of good cause is required
17 if the client is seeking to replace appointed
18 counsel or appointed counsel is asking to
19 withdraw from the case.
20 Appointed counsel in cases such as this,
21 and, uh, I'm sure Attorney Kachinsky is well
22 aware of that, can only be relieved of his
23 obligation to def end this defendant if good cause
24 is shown.
25 Here, we have appointed counsel who has
21
1 lost his public defender certification to accept
2 appointments in Class A through D felonies.
3 Categories in which two of the charges against
4 this defendant fall.
5 Admittedly, this is a prospective
6 decertification, not applicable to this case and
7 subject to Mr. Kachinsky 1 s right to appeal.
8 Nonetheless, and I think this is this is the
9 overarching point, it is for actions that took
10 place in this case. He allowed his 16-year-old
11 client, who previous testimony has disclosed to
12 have cognitive ability within borderline to below
13 average rain -- range to be interviewed by law
14 enforcement officials without his attorney
15 present.
16 While Mr. Kachinsky sent his
17 investigator with Mr. Dassey on May 13, 2006 to
18 the interview and made himself available by cell
19 phone, that is not in this Court's opinion
20 enough. He is the lawyer for Mr. Dassey. This
21 is a major case. His client is a young man with
22 intellectual deficits. Attorney Kachinsky should
23 have in the course of his representation of
24 Mr. Dassey been there with his client.
25 The Court believes that Attorney
22
1 Kachinsky's failure to be present while his
2 client gave a statement to investigators, a
3 statement which, according to the special
4 prosecutor's petition filed May 17 supporting his
5 motion to increase bail, provided new information
6 to authorities on the crimes charged here, I

7 believe that constituted deficient performance on
8 Attorney Kachinsky's part. This performance,
9 coupled with the subsequent State Public Defender
10 certification, raises at the least a threshold
11 question of confidence and puts any further by
12 representation by Attorney Kachinsky of
13 Mr. Dassey under a cloud of uncertainty. This is
14 not the kind of assistance of counsel a defendant
15 should have.
16 I believe the reasons he gave for not
17 being at the interview are insufficient to excuse
18 his presence. His duty in this case in these
19 circumstances was to his client and is to his
20 client.
21 Moreover, whether or not his failure to
22 appear was reported to the State Public Defender
23 by some other attorney inv -- involved in a
24 companion case is neither here nor there. It is
25 his actions about which we are concerned, not who
23
1 reported them.
2 The Court believes that this episode
3 constitutes good cause for withdrawal and,
4 accordingly, I will grant his motion to withdraw.
5 Additionally, the Court believes
6 Attorney Kachinsky -- Kachinsky's withdrawal is
7 necessary to assure the entire proceeding be
8 viewed as fair and trying to ensure that we can
9 maintain public confidence in the administration
10 of justice and the fair administration of
11 justice.
12 Let me go back again to -- to one of the
13 institutional concerns I mentioned in conjunction
14 with Wheat v. The United States:
15 That is the third concern. A court's
16 institutional interest that the court's judgments
17 remain intact on appeal and be free from future
18 attacks over the adequacy or fairness of the
19 proceedings.
20 If this case has to be tried, I want to
21 do my level best to make sure that it is tried
22 only once. The prosecution, the defense, the
23 families involved, the system deserve no less.
24 Accordingly, I -- as I have said, I'm going to
25 grant Mr. Kachinsky's motion to withdraw. The
24
1 Court proposes to prepare the order and I'll have
2 staff notify the State Public Defender's Office.
3 Anything further for this afternoon, gentlemen?
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Just how that may
5 implicate the, uh -- the trial and change of venue
6 dates, Judge. I don't know, um, how the State, uh,
7 may particularly may be, urn, included in the, um,
8 decision to, uh, appoint new counsel or how this
9 Court, uh, will be informed of that. I assume we
10 will need some kind of a scheduling, uh, conference,
11 uh, very soon thereafter.
13 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Uh, Your Honor, one
14 problem that always seems -- occurs in, uh,
15 withdrawal of counsel from cases is getting the
16 file to successor attorney. Uh, if Mr. Dassey
17 would, uh, consent on the record, I can just do
18 that and not have to require the new attorney to
19 go through the paperwork shuffle that --
20 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dassey, do you
21 understand what Counsel has said?
23 THE COURT: Uh, he has accumulated what I
24 would guess to be a substantial file at this point.
25 Uh, do you have any objection to having that file
25
1 passed onto successor counsel as soon as that person
2 is appointed?

4 THE COURT: All right. Uh, I'll include
5 that -- I'll include that in the order. And,
6 Mr. Kratz, getting back to you just for a moment,
7 uh, rest assured we'll have a scheduling conference
8 the -- the -- the moment, uh, I 1 m alerted to whoever
9 it is that 1 s been appointed as successor counsel.
10 Anything else, gentlemen?
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Nothing, Judge. Thank
12 you.
15 ATTORNEY KACHINSKY: Thank you.

16 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED.}
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15 Dated this 6th day of September, 2006.
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1 STATE OF WISCONSIN }
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15 Dated this 6th day of September, 2006.
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BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
7
DEFENDANT.
8
10 DATE: DECEMBER 15, 2006

Circuit Court Judge
12
APPEARANCES:
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
14 SPECIAL PROSECUTOR
15
MARK R. FREMGEN
16 Attorney at Law
17
RAYMOND L. EDELSTEIN
18 Attorney at Law
19
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
20 Defendant
Appeared in person.
21
22 * * * * * * * *
1
COPY
'
2 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey, Case No.
3 06 CF 88. Appearances, please.
6 appearing as special prosecutor in this case.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Brendan Dassey
8 appears in person by Attorneys Mark Fremgen and
9 also Raymond Edelstein.
10 THE COURT: All right. Uh, we're here
11 today to discuss a number of motions. I'm going to
12 start with motions that were filed by counsel for
13 the defense on November 10, 2006 and, specifically,
14 I'm going to start with a motion that's captioned,
15 motion to suppress statements, motion to reopen
16 hearing to suppress statement, motion to continue.
17 Uh, in this motion, the defendant
18 acknowledges that a hearing has already been held
19 to suppress statements given by this defendant to
20 authorities on February 27 and March 1 of 2006.
21 But the defendant says that the previous motion
22 failed to specifically assert that the
23 defendant's statements were the product of undue
24 suggestion. The defendant would like to have the
25 hearing reopened or continued so he can present,
2
'
1 uh, psychological testimony from an expert
2 witness relating to the suggestibility of the
3 defendant.
4 Uh, defense counsel, Mr. Fremgen, have I
5 fairly stated the motion?
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's correct, Judge.
7 THE COURT: Do you wish to be heard on it?
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, briefly.
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I don't want to add
11 any more to the motion. I won't repeat what's in
12 the motion itself . . However, Your Honor, what
13 we're asking is, essentially -- what we're
14 asking, essentially, is to allow us to supplement
15 what has already occurred.
16 Granted, we understand the Court has
17 already ruled previously on a motion brought
18 before by his previous attorney essentially
19 making the argument that the motion should be
20 suppressed since the -- or excuse me, the
21 statement should be suppressed since the
22 statement wasn't a voluntary statement.
23 And within the general or the larger
24 text of voluntariness is the issue of
25 suggestibility. I believe previous counsel
3
1 alluded to that in the motion, or in his
2 arguments, and by presenting the, uh, school
3 counselor who addressed the issue of maturity
4 level and intelligence quotient, as well as the
5 mother to essentially provide similar type of
6 of, uh, layperson testimony about my client's
7 maturity level, I think that is what counsel was
8 attempting to do.
9 We feel, after having reviewed the
10 transcript of the motion hearing, reviewed the
11 tapes, uh, and hired a psychologist from
12 Janesville to go through that, uh, who's offered
13 us a tentative opinion that he believes that the
14 statements could potentially be unreliable based
15 upon undue suggestibility, we would like to
16 reopen that motion hearing, bring forth that
17 additional evidence to support what I think has
18 been tacitly attempted, but this would
19 completely, uh -- or would complete that
20 argument, uh, based on that statement.
21 We understand that reliability can still
22 be addressed at trial, but we're asking to deal
23 with this essentially on a -- a pretrial basis to
24 avoid having to, uh, unduly prolong the
25 proceedings at trial to raise the issue and have
4
1 the doctor testify at that time on the issue of
2 reliability in front of the jury. Thank you.
3 THE COURT: Response, Mr. Kratz?
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: As to Mr. Fremgen's last

5 statement, his, um, claim that this can obviously be
6 addressed at trial, or a claim of it being a false
7 confession can obviously be raised, uh, is not
8 necessarily an accurate statement. There will have
9 to be a showing, uh, made at a pretrial motion to
10 allow such a -- a course to occur.
11 That having been said, Judge, this Court
12 did make, uh, independent analysis and review of
13 the statement itself. It was from the
14 defendant's own words, from the defendant's own
15 statement that this Court made specific rulings
16 as to suggestibility, as to undue or improper
17 influence by law enforcement, and as this Court
18 is aware, uh, made a detailed set of findings
19 that, in fact, uh, Mr. Dassey's statement was a
20 product of his own free will and not, uh,
21 improper suggestibility which is, of course, the
22 legal standard.
23 Uh, to allow at this time, uh, review or
24 a revisiting of that motion, uh, is something not
25 supported by Mr. Fremgen's motion. The issue of
5
1 voluntariness was fully litigated in a previous
2 hearing. I'd urge the Court then deny the
3 motion.
4 THE COURT: Any reply?
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I -- I would -- Well, I
6 agree with, uh, Counsel in regards to there would
7 have to be some sort of pretrial motion in regards
8 to the issue of trial testimony. But as far as
9 having fully, uh, uh, addressed the issue at motion
10 hearing, that is essentially what we're arguing,
11 that we don't believe it has been fully addressed.
12 There wasn't a -- for instance, somebody who can
13 offer expert testimony as to the issue of
14 suggestibility, uh, who has actually met with
15 Brendan and -- and reviewed the tapes, versus just
16 the counselor that would simply say -- that simply
17 said at the motion hearing, he had an IQ between 74
18 and 78, depending upon the year.
19 THE COURT: All right. Uh, as the parties
20 have acknowledged, there was a hearing already held
21 on the statements, the statements of February 27 and
22 March 1. That hearing was held on May 4.
23 Uh, many of the -- the objections that
24 prompted that hearing were the same ones being
25 raised currently by Counsel. Counsel here takes
6
1 a -- a slightly different tact by suggesting
2 that, uh -- in fact, that this defendant was
3 suggestible, that apparently was being led by,
4 uh, the interviewers to simply answer what they
5 wanted him to answer in a way that they wanted
6 him to -- to answer it.
7 Um, the transcript shows -- and I've
8 reviewed the transcript -- shows that we had
9 three witnesses. We had, uh, the defendant's
10 mother testify, as well as, uh, Investigator
11 Wiegert, who was one of the interviewers, and we
12 had a school psychologist from the Mishicot
13 School District, Kris Schoenenberger-Gross, who
14 offered some testimony on the defendant's
15 intellectual, uh, capabilities.
16 Uh, the issue of suggestibility appeared
17 to have been raised very directly into the course
18 of the hearing and I'm -- I'm going to advert
19 here, very briefly, to the transcript, and
20 specifically page 44, and this is, uh, Mr. Kratz,
21 asking a question:
22 Question: Now, Investigator Wiegert, to
23 ensure the accur -- accuracy or truthfulness of
24 information you're receiving sometimes from
25 either witnesses or suspect, there's a tech
7
1 tactic or a strategy which includes deliberately
2 providing false information. That is, providing
3 information about the case that you very well
4 know never happened. That it didn't happen. Are
5 you familiar with that strategy or tactic?
6 Answer: Yes.
7 Was that
8 Question: Was that employed in this
9 case?
10 Answer: Yes, it was.
11 Questions: And, uh, could you describe
12 for the Court why that was used and, uh, what,
13 uh, results you got therefrom?
14 Answer: Well, the reason you do things
15 like that is to, um, see if the witness is going
16 to go along with the false statements or if he's
17 going to stop you and correct you. Um, and when
18 we did that with Mr. Dassey, when we gave him
19 false information, he would deny it, stop us, and
20 he would correct the information. And that the
21 purpose is to make sure that he's not just going
22 along with everything we're saying and to see
23 that he is telling us the truth. And we did
24 that.
25 That's the end of the quote from -- from
8
1 the transcript. And that last portion came from
2 page 45.
3 Investigator Wiegert went on to testify
4 to a couple of specific instances where false
5 information was given to Mr. Dassey and
6 Mr. Dassey rejected it as being part of anything
7 that he knew about.
8 Uh, the Court has viewed those tapes as
9 well as and knows that there were other instances
10 in which false information was given to
11 Mr. Dassey and he rejected -- he rejected the
12 content and context of the information.
13 I think the -- the question you raise
14 has already been considered. We spent a fair
15 amount of time at that hearing. Uh, I see no
16 reason to -- to go back to either continue it or
17 to try to supplement that record. I thought the
18 findings of fact made at that hearing considered
19 all of the relevant personal characteristics of
20 this defendant, and based on those relevant
21 personal characteristics, as well as the
22 interview that was had of him on those two days,
23 February 27 and March 1, I concluded that the
24 statement should not be suppressed because it was
25 a product of his free and unconstrained will.
9
1 Uh, I see no reason to either change
2 that conclusion or go back and reconsider it.
3 Accordingly, I'm going to deny your motion.
4 Specifically, I'm going to deny the three --
5 three avenues, or -- or the three, um, items of
6 relief that you're asking for on page two of the
7 motion; a continuance of the motion hearing to a
8 later date to accommodate the completion of the
9 psychological testimony and anticip --
10 anticipated testimony, uh, B, the right to pursue
11 this motion as to the suppression of the February
12 27 and March 1, 2006 statements as having been
13 involuntary, unknowing and unintelligent in light
14 of the overly suggestive nature of the
15 questioning.
16 Seeing in the event the Court finds that
17 the issue has been previously tried, the right to
18 reopen the hearing in light of the newly
19 discovered evidence in the form of expert
20 testimony as to suggestibility, Court denies all
21 the requested, uh, items of -- of relief.
22 Court then moves onto the second motion
23 we are going to consider here, specifically the
24 motion to reopen the preliminary hearing because
25 of ineffective assistance of counsel.
10
1 Uh, the preliminary hearing is an early
2 stage in a prosecution at which the State has to
3 show evidence that probable cause exists to
4 believe that a felony has been committed and that
5 the defendant has committed a felony.
6 In this instance, the counsel at that
7 time representing this defendant waived the right
8 to a preliminary examination. Uh, Counsel now
9 wishes us to go back to that stage. He says that
10 the preliminary examination should not have been
11 waived, or suggested shouldn't have been waived,
12 at least under the circumstances that it was
13 waived. Counsel says in his petition supporting
14 his motion that the then counsel -- appointed
15 counsel -- representing this defendant did not,
16 uh, discuss with any specificity the allegations
17 in the Criminal Complaint. He didn't adequately
18 discuss the purpose of the preliminary hearing,
19 the special procedures and circumstances, and,
20 further, that, uh, then that time appointed
21 counsel may not have understood the distinction
22 between two different kinds of preliminary
23 hearings; one found at 970.03 and one found at
24 970.032. Um, is that, uh, a reasonably accurate
25 summary of your motion, Mr. Fremgen?
11
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Correct, Judge.
2 THE COURT: Do you wish to be heard on it?
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, if the Court
4 would, uh, allow, I wish to be heard essentially on
5 both at the same time. My arguments for both kind
6 of overlap.
7 THE COURT: That's fair. Let me then
8 just touch upon the third motion. Both of these
9 motions, uh, the second and third motions here,
10 are based on what this counsel says is
11 ineffective assistance of the counsel
12 representing Mr. Dassey at the time of the events
13 mentioned in these separate motions, uh, were
14 made, uh, that fact that each particular
15 counsel -- And there are two different
16 appointment of counsels here. There was an -- an
17 initial of counsel representing him at the
18 preliminary hearing stage and then another
19 counsel representing him at a stage when he
20 apparently gave a separate statement to law
21 enforcement authorities on May 13, 2006 in the
22 absence of his lawyer but with, apparently, the
23 assistance of a private investigator who was
24 employed by that lawyer.
25 The grounds for both these motions are
12
1 ineffective assistance of counsel. Uh, why don't
2 you address both them, then, Mr. Fremgem.
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, if the Court
4 recalls at a -- a later, uh -- or, excuse me -- at
5 an earlier status conference, the Court and State
6 requested some additional authority from defense to
7 support our purpose or the basis for our argument.
8 Uh, we -- I can't say I've conducted exhaustive
9 research, but certainly hours of research into the
10 issue of ineffective assistance of counsel. And
11 other than the case that we cite essentially for
12 the -- for the dicta in that case, I don't believe
13 there are any other cases on point on this issue in
14 Wisconsin.
15 Now, I think that -- it doesn't
16 necessarily preclude us from bringing the motion.
17 I think it just, uh, raises more of a unique
18 situation for the trial Court versus a precedent
19 it must follow from previous case law. So,
20 essentially, there's two reasons why we believe
21 that an evidentiary hearing into this issue, uh,
22 is appropriate and we would be asking for that.
23 First, is, uh, despite the, uh, case law
24 that seems to overwhelmingly suggest that
25 ineffective assistance of counsel is reserved for
13
1 post-conviction proceedings, there's no case that
2 expressly rejects the proposition that the issue
3 can be or should be addressed at the trial level
4 before it actually gets to the point of a
5 potential post-conviction, uh, matter.
6 State vs. Armstead is the case that I
7 cited in my -- my motion, uh, and it's the dicta
8 that's within that case and, uh, granted, it is
9 essentially a paragraph or even less, but the
10 Armstead case implies that a trial court may
11 entertain an ineffective assistance motion prior
12 to the conclusion of the case if the defendant
13 can show that the alleged conduct is not a
14 hypothetical deficiency or it's premised on
15 the -- or -- and that's not premised on the
16 possible existence of future ineffective conduct.
17 I -- I think what Armstead -- in the
18 Armstead case there was an interlocutory appeal
19 that came from a a -- a preliminary -- waiver
20 of a preliminary hearing similar, somewhat
21 factually, to the case here.
22 Uh, and in that case, the defendant was
23 arguing essentially on interlocutory appeal that
24 his trial attorney didn't know what he was doing
25 and wasn't offering, uh, good advice in regards
14
1 to the preliminary hearing and potentially other
2 advice at other critical stages of the
3 proceedings.
4 Um, in this case we feel we have a
5 different factual situation. It's not a
6 hypothetical and it's not future conduct, the --
7 the -- the crux of the the Complaint.
8 Essentially, it's the, uh what the two prior
9 attorneys have, uh, already, uh, done and, that
10 is, they've inadequately, uh, provided
11 representation to Mr. Dassey in -- in the advice
12 of waiving the preliminary hearing despite the
13 fact that, uh, the attorney at the time,
14 Mr. Sczygelski, had only met with Mr. Dassey for
15 less than a half hour and that Mr. Dassey, from
16 the suppression motion, Court is aware, has a
17 rather irrunature individual with an IQ of --
18 registered IQ of somewhere between 74 and 78.
19 Um, and coupled with the fact that from
20 a prop -- a -- a subsequent e-mail from that
21 attorney to Mr. Kachinsky, indicated that he
22 wasn't aware of 970.032, which is the issue of
23 original jurisdiction by this Court, and the
24 issue of whether or not, uh, an individual who
25 comes before the Court on original jurisdiction
15
1 for a 940.01 allegation should be sent back to
2 the juvenile authorities.
3 Second, I think that the pleadings
4 adequately also establish that Well, I
5 shouldn't say adequately. But I think there
6 would be a need for an evidentiary hearing to
7 establish whether or not there was a strategic
8 reason for making these decision to have
9 Mr. Dassey meet with, uh, law enforcement, makes
10 additional statements after he's already made two
11 videotape statements, um, without counsel being
12 present, and whether or not there was any
13 strategic reason to waive the preliminary hearing
14 30 minutes after meeting with the defendant at
15 the initial appearance without any offer of
16 settlement or even a possible negoti
17 negotiation being addressed with the the
18 State.
19 Um, I -- I think that we would certainly
20 need to have that additional information. No
21 different than a post-conviction Machner type of
22 hearing. And, so, that's what we're essentially
23 requesting then on this case prior to its
24 conclusion.
25 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz.
16
1 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. It is
2 noteworthy that this Court directed Mr. Fremgen to
3 provide the Court with any legal authority that
4 would authorize the relief, uh, that Mr. Fremgen's
5 requesting. Court directed Mr. Fremgen to provide
6 any kind of case law, any kind of authority, didn't
7 even have to be Wisconsin case law, on a ineffective
8 assistance claim that at this stage of the
9 proceedings, that is pre trial, that authorized the
10 relief that he suggested.
11 Mr. Fremgen has told this Court now that
12 he's unable to do so. Why? Because there is no
13 such law. Because this is a premature motion.
14 Because the Hachner-type hearings, the
15 ineffective assistance of counsel, whether we're
16 talking about, uh, federal cases, Strick1and v.
17 Washington, or even the Wisconsin cases that
18 Mr. Fremgen cites. Uh, the, uh, the Azmstead
19 case or the Pitsch case, P-i-t-s-c-h, is how
20 that's spelled, talks about the prejudice prong
21 being that the defendant was deprived of a fair
22 trial. We aren't at the trial stage and so
23 there's absolutely no way for this Court to make
24 a finding as to whether or not Mr. Dassey's trial
25 is going to be fair.
17
1 Mr. Fremgen claims that Mr. Kachinsky's
2 decisions in his, uh, attempts to gain a, uh -- a
3 favorable disposition for his client, uh, was,
4 uh, in fact, ineffective. Mr. Kachinsky has
5 given this Court in prior pleadings, uh, a number
6 of reasons -- strategic reasons -- why he was
7 attempting to, uh, act in the best interests of
8 his client.
9 Mr. Fremgen also claims that
10 Mr. Sczygelski, the first attorney in this case,
11 was deficient when he waived the preliminary
12 hearing.
13 But when you have a four-hour videotaped
14 confession, and when the State's responsibility,
15 uh, almost literally at that preliminary hearing
16 would be to walk into court and to press the
17 "play" button on the confession, uh, even
18 Mr. Fremgen would have to admit that, uh, the
19 defendant would be bound over for trial.
20 Uh, the strategic decision, then, to
21 waive that prelim, the decision for, uh,
22 Mr. Sczygelski and his client, Mr. Dassey, at
23 that time did not have that four-hour confession
24 played publicly, uh, was, in fact, I think, a
25 wise decision. But it isn't something, even,
18
1 that this Court need reach because the prejudice
2 prong, as I've mentioned, cannot be, urn,
3 addressed by Mr. Fremgen.
4 Let me note that it is the defense's
5 burden to overcome the strong presumption that
6 counsel acted reasonably in all of these matters.
7 And the fact that we are pre trial, the fact that
8 Mr. Fremgen cannot guess what's going to happen
9 at the -- the trial, if we have a trial in this
10 case, is the very reason that these matters are
11 not brought pre trial.
12 And, therefore, Judge, because this
13 motion is brought prematurely, because there is
14 no law that I'm aware of, or Mr. Fremgen, uh,
15 that authorizes this remedy at this time in the
16 proceedings, I'm urging the Court once again deny
17 both of these motions. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Reply?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Just briefly. Until
20 Gideon argued for court appointed counsel, there's
21 no precedent that said a court must provide defense
22 counsel to the indigent. Until In re Gault
23 (phonetic) argued the same, there's no precedent
24 that said the Court had to provide counsel for
25 juveniles. And until Brandar (phonetic) argued that
19
1 his rights were violated by the fact that the police
2 didn't inform him of his due process rights, no
3 precedent provi -- provided that protection to
4 defendants.
5 Just because it hasn't been done before,
6 doesn't mean the Court can't do it. That's what
7 we're asking the Court to do.
8 THE COURT: I'm not so sure that last
9 statement, just because it hasn't been done before
10 means this Court can't do it, is -- is factually
11 correct. But the Court, uh, has considered both
12 these motions.
13 The first of the -- the -- the two
14 relates to a claim of ineffective assistance of
15 counsel, uh, at the preliminary hearing stage,
16 because defense counsel at that time waived the
17 right to the preliminary hearing.
18 Uh, the second of the motions relates to
19 an ineffective assistance of counsel claim that
20 concerns an interview given on May 13, 2006 by
21 this defendant to law enforcement agencies, or
22 law enforcement agents, at which the defendant's
23 counsel was not present and it was given with the
24 permission of that counsel.
25 Ineffective -- And I did a fair amount
20
1 of research on this myself. Not necessarily on
2 Wisconsin law because, uh, that was reasonably
3 easy to research, but I -- I researched some
4 hours of federal case law to try to find some
5 case that said an ineffective assistance of
6 counsel claim could be raised in a pretrial
7 setting. I couldn't find anything. Uh, all of
8 it relates -- and I'm not saying there doesn't
9 exist a case or cases out there -- but if they
10 are, they're few and far between, and they're
11 certainly ones I didn't see.
12 Ineffective assistance of counsel is a
13 motion that is raised exclusively as a post-trial
14 motion in Wisconsin. It then gives rise to what
15 is called a Machner hearing. We've heard that
16 term discussed. And that is, uh derives from
17 a case called State v . .Machner.
18 There is a two-prong test for
19 ineffective assistance of counsel. The first
20 prong is that the performance of the lawyer must
21 be deficient. Must not have met standards that
22 would typically be met by lawyers practicing in a
23 reasonable manner in that area of law.
24 The second prong -- prong, uh, says that
25 the person bringing the motion must affirmatively
21
1 show the reasonable probability but for counsel's
2 unprofessional errors a result or proceeding
3 would have been different. And I'm -- I'm citing
4 here from a Wisconsin case call State vs. Hicks
5 at 195 Wis. 2d, uh, 620, uh, specifically at page
6 632.
7 Uh, Counsel, in support of his motion
8 cites a case called State v. Az:mstead,
9 220 Wis. 2d 626 at page 636, and he said, what he
10 refers to as dicta here, and I think he's
11 probably correct, dicta means the Court is simply
12 saying this, it may not have the -- the full
13 force of law, but the Court considers the
14 question of ineffective assistance of counsel in
15 the context of a pretrial motion.
16 I'm going to read from that case, and
17 it's a -- it's a short paragraph, and that's all
18 that's here. The court says as follows:
19 Quote, Azmstead appears to claim that
20 her trial counsel either has been or currently is
21 providing her with ineffective assistance because
22 her counsel, who is unable to determine the
23 meaning of Section 983.183 and 970.032 of the
24 statutes does not know whether to advise her to
25 plead guilty or go to trial.
22
1 In order to prove ineffective assistance
2 of counsel, a defendant must show both deficient
3 performance and resulting prejudice. At this
4 point Armstead has not pleaded guilty to or been
5 convicted of any crime. Even if her counsel had
6 been or currently is providing Armstead with
7 ineffective assistance, the possibility that
8 Armstead will actually be prejudiced by that
9 alleged ineffective assistance, amounts to a
10 hypothetical and future fact. I've omitted some
11 citations from the -- the -- the quote.
12 That's precisely where we're at here.
13 Whether or not ~here has been ineffective
14 assistance of counsel is exclusively a post-trial
15 motion and we will not know until something has
16 happened, a trial has happened, a conviction has
17 been had or not had, whether or not counsel has
18 been ineffective and whether or not that
19 ineffectiveness has prejudiced the result of --
20 of -- of the -- of the trial, the result of the
21 case.
22 Um, under those circumstances, really,
23 the Court has -- has no other alternative,
24 Counsel, but to deny both your motions ..
25 All right. Um, predecessor counsel
23
1 filed on March 17 a motion for change of venue.
2 Uh, current counsel has supplemented that motion
3 with additional materials that have been supplied
4 to the Court on December 6, 2006. The materials
5 are on the -- the clerk's desk, they're in boxes
6 and in folders, and I'll allude to those in a
7 minute.
8 Under Wisconsin law, specifically
9 Section 971.19, venue, which simply means the
10 place of trial, is supposed to be in the county
11 where the alleged act or crime was committed.
12 971.22 of the statutes permits the Court to move
13 the place of trial to another county if the
14 defendant shows to the satisfaction of the Court
15 that there is a reasonable likelihood that an
16 impartial jury cannot be impaneled in the county
17 in which the trial should be held.
18 If the defendant makes such a showing,
19 the Court can move the entire trial to a
20 different county or, under certain circumstances,
21 choose the jury in a different county outside the
22 area, in this case the media area, of -- of the
23 county in which the crime is committed, and try
24 the case in the county in which the -- the crime
25 was committed.
24
1 To support his motion, the defendant has
2 filed with the Court the following:
3 An index of TV coverage from the four
4 major network stations in Green Bay. Those show
5 the dates and titles of the television
6 transcripts used by each station in its coverage
7 of Teresa Halbach's disappearance and events
8 associated with the investigation of her death
9 and the prosecution of the persons charged in
10 that death.
11 Uh, the defendant has also filed two
12 boxes and those are the ones on the clerk's
13 table that have been marked as exhibits -- two
14 boxes, an expandable file and CD-ROM of
15 television news scripts relating to the
16 disappearance of Ms. Halbach, the subsequent
17 subsequent investigation, the arrest and
18 prosecution of Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey
19 for her death and a wrongful death suit.
20 There is, as well, a CD-ROM of newspaper
21 articles appearing in the Manitowoc Herald Times
22 that has been filed as part of the defendant's
23 submission. And, lastly, the defendant has filed
24 a brief supporting his argument to change venue
25 in this particular case.
25
1 Counsel, do you wish to be heard on this
2 motion?
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Again, Judge, I'll try
4 to be brief. Rather than point to particular dates,
5 what we had prep -- had attempted to do is provide a
6 list for both the State as well as the Court of the
7 dates in which there was television coverage of
8 of the -- just the Halbach disappearance and arrests
9 of the two individuals involved in -- in in -- in
10 the, uh, disappearance, and now the charges of first
11 degree intentional homicide.
12 It's impossible to actually, in our
13 opinion, to remove one from the other.
14 Oftentimes, in many of these, uh, reports,
15 especially after, uh, March 1, whenever Mr. Avery
16 was in court or there was a a television
17 update on the case would refer to Mr. Dassey as
18 well.
19 There were times within many of the, uh,
20 television reports and, uh, the -- and the print
21 reports that some of the details of the, um,
22 allegations were released. At times there were
23 comments attributed to law enforcement. There
24 was a press conference with the State and law
25 enforcement. Um, there was comments in regards
26
1 to the statements, the videotape statements. And
2 there was also, in various broadcasts, such
3 terminology as "gruesome'' and "torture."
4 The -- And -- and -- and one other
5 matter, I know we're not looking into the future,
6 but I will assume that come February 5 when
7 Mr. Avery's trial starts, this will all start up
8 again as far as the publicity. And I will also
9 assume that since it's been that way since
10 Mr. Avery's, uh -- or since Mr. Dassey's, uh,
11 charge, that every time they bring up one name,
12 they always bring up the other. That
13 Mr. Dassey's name will be brought up as the other
14 person charged, the nephew, etc.
15 Now, I believe that the transcripts --
16 there's approximately 150 transcripts from Fox 11
17 that are relevant transcripts and, oftentimes,
18 there would be broadcasts at five, six, noon,
19 five in the afternoon, six again, and then ten
20 o'clock. And, so, when on the index when I
21 indicate one day, it could be, at times, six or
22 seven different broadcasts in that day. Not
23 always, but often that was the case as well.
24 There were about 110 telecasts of WBAY,
25 50 telecasts of WGBA, NBC, about 120 telecasts of
27
1 WFRV, as well as the, uh, Times Herald (sic}
2 articles, between 25 and 30.
3 I think it would be fair to state, that
4 I don't believe the State would -- would even
5 disagree that this case has drawn some extensive
6 regional coverage. There have been, as I noted,
7 many articles and reports about Mr. Dassey,
8 Mr. Avery, and there have been, uh, comments from

9 the families. Both sides. From the -- from the
10 Avery family as well as from the Halbach Family.
11 And and, as I pointed out, I'm
12 expecting that will probably increase two-fold
13 when the Avery trial starts in February.
14 But, because of the graphic nature of
15 many of the -- the alleg -- of the allegations
16 that are -- been publicized, and the press
17 conferences, and the law enforcement comments,
18 the severity of the offense and the notoriety
19 this case has gained, I think that, due to the
20 saturated news coverage, and the dissemination of
21 these graphic details, and reactions from family
22 members, that the local jury pool is -- is all
23 too aware of this case, and would be very
24 difficult to, uh, pick a unbiased or uneducated
25 jury in regards to the publicity which would
28
1 result in -- what we believe, unfortunately, in
2 an unfair trial for Mr. Dassey.
3 And for that reason, we believe that,
4 uh, change in the venue -- And we're only asking
5 for a jury from another, uh, county. We do
6 believe that that would be an undue hardship on
7 both families, Mr. Dassey's family as well as the
8 Halbach family, to have to up -- uproot and move
9 to another county for the trial. We don't
10 certainly think that's appropriate. But we do
11 believe that bringing a jury from a different
12 county would be.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz.
15 Mr. Fremgen -- and, once again, I'm going to start
16 at the end of his argument rather than at the
17 beginning -- claims that, uh, the Court is to strive
18 to find some uneducated -- and that's the word he
19 used -- some uneducated jury. I suspect that he's
20 talking about, uh, some jurors who don't know
21 anything about the case. And that, of course, is
22 not the, uh, jury pool, uh, that, uh, trials are
23 made up of.
24 Uh, we expect our jurors to be educated.
25 We expect our jurors to watch the news and to
29
1 know something about the case as, uh, publicly
2 discussed as this one. The prohibition, of
3 course, is if a juror has, uh, made up his or her
4 mind about the guilt or innocence of a, uh,
5 defendant based upon what they have read or what
6 they have seen, not based upon the coverage
7 itself.
8 And, so, it's impossible at this time to
9 determine whether or not such a jury pool exists.
10 That is, whether or not we would be able to find
11 12 jurors who have, uh, not either made up their
12 mind or are willing to set aside what they've
13 already heard to decide the case.
14 I think it's important to note that, uh,
15 Judge Willis, in a companion case, in State v.
16 Avery, uh, is allowing the jury to be selected
17 from this very county, uh, from Manitowoc County.
18 And so I think whether or not a jury pool is
19 available, uh, has already been decided.
20 But this is a different case and I will,
21 uh, concede that with Mr. Dassey's case happening
22 second, there is the possibility of additional
23 pretrial publicity. I'm going to urge the Court
24 to not rule on the motion to, uh, change venue at
25 this time but to wait to see what kind of
30
1 coverage, what kind of, um, uh, events occur
2 between now and Mr. Dassey's trial.
3 Mr. Fremgen did not talk about the eight
4 factors that Wisconsin, uh, considers. Uh, and,
5 uh, I just need to mention those briefly, Judge,
6 just because we have to make a record as to those
7 factors for -- for change of venue.
8 The, uh, Fonte case, F-o-n-t-e, suggests
9 that this Court consider:
10 Number one, the inflammatory nature of
11 any publicity.
12 Nwnber two, the timing and specificity
13 of the publicity.
14 Nwnber three, the difficulty that there
15 may be in selecting a jury.
16 Number four, the extent to which jurors
17 are familiar with the publicity.
18 Nwnber five, the defendant's use of
19 peremptory challenges.
20 Nwnber six, our, that is the State's,
21 participation in any adverse publicity.
22 Nwnber seven, the severity of the
23 offense.
24 And, nwnber eight, the nature of the
25 verdict.
31
1 Well, the Court can see that several of
2 those factors can't be addressed until the time
3 of the attempt to select a jury. And so, again,
4 my suggestion is, um, to wait.
5 However, if the Court is to rule today,
6 there are, uh, some, uh, points that I feel I
7 need to raise with the Court.
8 As to the nature of the publicity, the
9 States argues, as it did in the Avery case, that
10 the coverage has been factual, has been
11 noneditorial to the most part, and not
12 prejudicial. When we look at the manner in which
13 the, uh, publicity has been presented, it may
14 inform jurors. As I've argued, that's not a bad
15 thing, uh, but certainly is not, uh, intended to
16 sway jurors.
17 This is, in fact, uh, a highly covered
18 case, but it should be. The facts of the case
19 itself lend to intense, uh, media attention. Let
20 me also state, though, Judge, that that raises
21 the second factor, and that is the timing of the
22 publicity. Most of the publicity on these two
23 cases, and I guess I should, uh, distinguish
24 Mr. Dassey's from Mr. Avery's coverage, although
25 Mr. Fremgen lumps them together, I'm not sure if
32
1 he believes the Court to do that, but most of the
2 publicity has been in the early stages, uh, of
3 this case. Almost, uh, and, in fact, more than a
4 year before, uh, the trial.
5 I will note that the last public
6 statement by, I think, any of the lawyers in the
7 case, uh, in the Avery case was, uh, November 11
8 of '05, and in the Dassey case was March 2 of
9 '06. That's going to be over a year before the
10 trial in this case.
11 I've argued, and I think that the Avery
12 Judge, uh, adopted the conclusion, that the
13 State's complied with rule 3.6. That is, the
14 statements that have been made in both of these

15 cases have been in full compliance with the rules
16 established by the Office of Lawyer Regulation.
17 Again, Judge, we don't know whether
18 we're going to have difficulty in selecting a
19 jury. We don't know how familiar the jurors are
20 going to be with the publicity. We don't know
21 Mr. Fremgen's use of peremptory challenges,
22 although he will certainly have those.
23 And, then, when the Court considers the
24 last primary factor, that is something you can
25 consider before trial, that is the severity of
33
1 the offense, homicide in these related charges
2 are, in fact, the most serious, uh, and would
3 expect intense media scrutiny.
4 This Court has a responsibility to
5 balance the public's right to information. Uh,
6 that is the, uh, right to know what's going on
7 from the danger of, uh, potential prejudicial
8 information being disseminated. Once, again,
9 because I think the information has been straight
10 forward, because of the timing, because it's been
11 so long before, uh, the trial in Mr. Dassey's
12 case, I'm going to urge the Court at this time to
13 find that there has been, uh, no proof brought by
14 Mr. Fremgen to establish those seven factors.
15 Let me also indicate, quite candidly,
16 however, that Mr. Fremgen, I believe, uh, may be
17 in a position after the Avery trial, uh, after
18 the middle of March, let's say, uh, to, uh,
19 submit additional facts to this Court, uh, at
20 which time, as we're closer to Mr. Dassey's
21 trial, at which time he may, in fact, be able to
22 establish those, uh -- those factors.
23 But because we're using a Manitowoc jury
24 in the Avery case, uh, I would ask the Court to
25 be cautious, uh, in making, uh, too many findings
34
1 of fact at this time that it cannot be possible
2 to select a fair jury from Manitowoc because that
3 is, in fact, what we intend to do, uh, in a
4 related case.
5 I hope as I say that, this Court is
6 sensitive to, um, my attempts to make the record
7 in both cases, because I have to. Because I have
8 to urge this Court, uh, to, uh -- to not, um,
9 make a specific findings of fact here that may
10 have some collateral impact on another case, uh,
11 that we are establishing.
12 I thank Mr. Fremgen for his concession
13 that if we are going to, uh, have a a change
14 of venue, that we bring in a jury from another
15 county. Certainly the victim's family has to be
16 considered. Uh, if, in fact, the Court is, uh,
17 leaning that way, shall we say, uh, then, uh, it
18 is the State's preference, obviously, that we try
19 the case hear in Manitowoc County using a jury
20 from a remote county. Thank you very much.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen.
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you. I agree with
23 Mr. Kratz as to the -- the need to review the
24 factors. In my brief in support with the
25 additional, uh, supplemental information cites a
35
1 Court of Appeals case, and I refer to what I believe
2 are the four major factors, and I agree with
3 Mr. Kratz that there are seven, but those aren't
4 exclusive factors as well.
5 I think the Court needs to also be
6 cognizant of the fact that there might be a need
7 for a number of "for cause", uh, challenges as
8 well, not just the peremptory challenges, which I
9 think is implied in that factor. This would
10 require a larger than normal jury pool to be
11 brought in. Could potentially require, uh,
12 almost a size of two jury pools in order to be
13 able to accommodate the potential "for cause"
14 challenges.
15 Absent the change of venue, there's a
16 likely -- there would likely be a need to conduct
17 individual voir dire in order to avoid tainting
18 the existing jury pool. And I think the whole
19 point of change of venue, based upon the case
20 -law, is that the trial court has to anticipate.
21 I agree with Mr. Kratz. I don't know
22 where the publicity is going to, uh, how it's
23 going to actually affect the jury, but we have
24 to -- and actually trial Court has to --
25 anticipate the difficulties in selecting a jury
36
1 based upon the coverage. It does not,
2 necessarily, limit it to inflarrunatory nature of

3 the publicity. That there's that separate
4 factor, the extent to which potential jury pool
5 was aware of the publicity.
6 I think that the -- the record reflects,
7 with the nwnber of exhibits, that there certainly
8 has been an extensive coverage of this matter,
9 whether you wish to with -- withdraw Mr. Dassey
10 or lump them into the Avery, slash, Dassey
11 coverage. I think certainly the main focus, or
12 the main point of the reason for change of venue
13 has to be the extent to which the jury is aware
14 of -- of the publicity.
15 THE COURT: All right. Uh, Court has heard
16 the arguments on the motion for change of venue.
17 We've discussed, briefly, some of the factors that
18 the Court is to use in evaluating these motions.
19 Uh, they're -- they're set forth in a number of
20 Wisconsin cases and -- and Mr. Kratz is -- is
21 correct. Many of these cases are cases that have
22 already been tried and they are brought as
23 post-judgment motions.
24 Uh, this is a prejudgment motion and, as
25 I noted before, the defendant has a right under
37
1 Wisconsin law to be tried by an impartial jury in
2 the county in where the crime was committed.
3 Actually, this is, uh, also a constitutional
4 right as -- as well as -- as simply a statutory
5 right.
6 Before a motion for change of venue can
7 be granted, the Court must find that there exists
8 a reasonable probability or likelihood that a
9 trial with an impartial jury cannot be had in
10 Manitowoc County. In other words, that, uh, it
11 will be difficult, if not, impossible to impanel,
12 uh, a -- an impartial jury for this case and
13 and this case I am, as defense counsel does,
14 lumping together with -- with Avery.
15 Um, among the factors that the Court
16 takes into consideration are some mention by,
17 uh by Mr. Kratz; the timing, the specificity
18 of the publicity, the inflammatory nature of the
19 publicity, the nature and severity of the
20 offenses involved, and the permeation of the
21 publicity. And I -- I take it permeation of
22 publicity means not only permeation of so-called
23 adverse publicity, but permeation of any
24 publicity touching upon the alleged events.
25 The Court has reviewed some, though
38
1 certainly not all, of the materials submitted by
2 the defendant in support of its motion. As a
3 preliminary matter, the Court notes that I have
4 seen no case in my 30-plus years in Manitowoc
5 County that has received anywhere near this
6 amount of -- the amount of news coverage that
7 this case has received in television, print and
8 voice media, internet activity. All have been
9 extensive and intensive.
10 I -- I also will note in response to
11 something that, uh, Mr. Kratz said, the motion
12 for change of venue is exclusively the
13 defendant's motion. It is not the Court's
14 motion, it is not the prosecutor's motion. And
15 the -- in the Avery case apparently a motion had
16 been made and withdrawn. Uh, this motion is not
17 withdrawn. It's been supplemented and it's
18 active and we're ruling on it today.
19 The defendant's brief notes, uh, that
20 in his appendices index, over 300 separate TV
21 news reports relating to some aspect of the Avery
22 or Dassey cases, and many of these reports ran
23 several or more times a day as he noted in his
24 argument.
25 Standing alone, the -- the sheer volume
39
1 of the -- the publicity, uh, might satisfy the
2 the factor of permeation of publicity, and I'm
3 not even speaking here of the -- the additional
4 newspaper, voice media and and other media
5 publicity. But that alone would not, uh, suggest
6 or conclusively tell us that -- that this is
7 prejudicial to the extent that the -- the Court
8 is fearful that an impartial jury might not be
9 able to be impaneled.
10 The details of, uh, Mr. Dassey's alleged
11 admissions, which form the basis of the State's
12 complaint against him, were disseminated in the
13 Complaint itself and in a televised press
14 conference, I believe, on March 2, 2007, which
15 was -- the conference itself was apparently
16 preceded by a warning to children under 15
17 because of the nature of the Complaint's details
18 not to, uh, not to watch the conference.
19 From that date on, uh, some or many of
20 these same details were repeated in many news
21 stories, often in connection with words like
22 "gruesome", "graphic", "very disturbing",
23 "troubling", "torture." And these are all words
24 that -- that should be in quotation marks because
25 those were the actual words used as -- as, uh,
40
"
1 describing the events and -- and this defendant's
2 participation in those events.
3 The defendant's brief notes that some
4 news stories quoted an investigator, presumably
5 anonymous, saying that this defendant was, quote,
6 a willing participant in murder, end quote.
7 Uh, the Court also is sensitive to the
8 argument raised by both sides that this trial
9 follows the Avery trial. And while I think the
10 special prosecutor makes a point saying, well, we
11 could -- we could simply wait until the Avery
12 trial and see what sort of publicity is generated
13 by that, what sort of result, and then -- then
14 make a determination. My feeling is that the --
15 the -- this trial is scheduled so closely on the
16 tail of the Avery trial that, uh, there would not
17 be time to -- to seriously consider and rule on
18 any additional motion.
19 In sum, I believe that the -- the nature
20 and magnitude of the publicity, the fact that it
21 has been consistent and ongoing, as well as
22 permeating this area, that it involves major
23 crimes of a horrific nature, that these factors
24 all combine to lead me to conclude that there is
25 a reasonable likelihood that it would be
41
1 impossible to impanel an -- an impartial jury for
2 this trial.
3 Accordingly, I'm going to grant the
4 defendant's motion. I am, uh, going to avail,
5 uh -- or as part of that granting, use Section
6 971.225, which, uh, permits the importation of a
7 jury from some other area of the State rather
8 than, uh, moving the trial elsewhere out of this
9 area.
10 I think the -- the standard for having a
11 jury come in here is that it would be too costly
12 to, uh, move, that it would be more expensive to
13 move the trial to another locale. I think that
14 is probably true, although I certainly haven't,
15 uh, gotten an accounting on that, but what
16 primarily motivates me is the fact that there are
17 people here on both representing both the
18 the victim and the defendant who, obviously, are
19 going to be at that trial, and it would simply
20 work another unfairness to to make them, uh,
21 go to a trial at some distant venue and spend
22 substantial amounts of money to stay there. So,
23 that motion will be granted.
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if -- if I may, is
25 the Court willing to include in its findings
42
1 specifically that, uh -- about the inability to
2 select an impartial jury from Manitowoc County, uh,
3 that that would be as of April of 2007? In other
4 words, uh, you're not commenting on whether or not
5 we're going to be able to do that in February in --
6 in a different trial.
7 THE COURT: I -- I am not ruling on
8 anything in the Avery case. I am ruling on a case
9 that is going to be held in April of 2006 after a
10 trial that begins in February of 2006.
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Certainly. Yes. Thank
12 you.
13 THE COURT: Gentlemen, any objection to
14 that?
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No.
16 THE COURT: All right. Uh, with respect to
17 the motions that were denied, uh, Mr. Kratz, would
18 you please draft an order? With respect to this
19 motion, uh, would you draft an order, Mr. Fremgen?
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge.
21 THE COURT: Anything else today?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Two things. In regards
23 to the change of venue motion, will this be then
24 left to the clerk of court to coordinate a jury? Do
25 you wish to have some input from counsel?
43
1 THE COURT: Um, certainly always happy to
2 hear from counsel. But, typically, what happens is
3 it's the -- the, uh -- it's the judicial assistant
4 and clerk of court working through the district
5 court administrator that -- that, uh, arrives at,
6 uh, a a place for jury selection.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine.
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The one issue that I had,
9 Judge, and it's unrelated to any of of -- of
10 these motions, it's more logistical in nature, um,
11 this is the first, uh, hearing at which Mr. Dassey
12 appears after having attained the age of majority,
13 uh, and I didn't know if the Court was going to
14 revisit his placement. He's in a secure juvenile
15 facility at this point.
16 Now that he is an adult, and the reason
17 that the Court set forth in its, uh, previous
18 placement of Mr. Dassey was because he hadn't
19 attained the age of majority for adult, uh,
20 jurisdiction yet, uh, if that is going to be
21 revisited, or if the Court wants a formal motion,
22 that's fine. Because this is more of a
23 housekeeping or logistical issue, I raise it now
24 as to how the Court wishes to proceed.
25 THE COURT: Any comment from defense on
44
1 that?
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I wouldn't
3 request or require a formal motion, but certainly
4 it's not something I discussed with Mr. Dassey. If
5 I could have time to talk to him --
6 THE COURT: Sure.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- about that issue.
8 THE COURT: Sure.
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Do you wish to put, uh,
10 motion in limine schedules -- Want to just do that
11 by phone conference?
12 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I think a scheduling
13 conference with the Court, even after this, uh,
14 hearing, if the Court's willing, might be
15 THE COURT: Yeah, we'll -- we'll meet for
16 a -- a brief scheduling conference for another
17 interim scheduling order to -- to discuss any
18 additional motions.
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: If -- if we have any
20 objection to what Mr. Kratz has requested, um, we'll
21 bring that to the Court and the State's attention.
22 Otherwise we can maybe enter a stipulation to that.
23 THE COURT: With respect to the change of
24 placement?
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Correct.
45
1 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. All right. Nothing
2 further? We're adjourned.
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)SS.
15 Dated this JI~ day of ...~he Ji 1, 2007.
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19 J nil K. Hau, RPR

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BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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VS. Case No. 06 CF 88
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BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
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DEFENDANT.
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10 DATE: MARCH 26, 2007
11 BEFORE: HON. JEROME L. FOX

Circuit Court Judge
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APPEARANCES:
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KENNETH R. KRATZ
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THOMAS J. FALLON
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NORMAN A. GAHN
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MARK R. FREMGEN
20 Attorney at Law
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22 Attorney at Law
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BRENDAN R. DASSEY
24 Defendant
Appeared in person.
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COPY
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1 IN 0 EX
2 WITNESSES PAGE
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DR. ROBERT GORDON
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Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 49-51
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1 THE COURT: This is the matter of the State
2 of Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey, Case No. 06 CF 88.
3 Appearances, please.
6 Assistant Attorney General Tom Fallon, Assistant
7 District Attorney Norm Gahn, all appearing as
8 special prosecutors.
9 THE COURT: We are here this afternoon on a
10 motion in limine --
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, uh, Attorneys
12 Mark Fremgen
13 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry.
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine. We're very
15 forgettable. Attorneys Mark Fremgen and Raymond
16 Edelstein on behalf of Brendan Dassey, who also
17 appears in person.
18 THE COURT: You're not forgettable, you
19 just have to be faster.
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'll remember that.
21 THE COURT: All right. We're here this
22 afternoon on a -- a motion in limine, uh, brought
23 by the defense seeking to ultimately have
24 admitted, uh, expert testimony on the statements
25 made by the defendant, Brendan Dassey, and
4
1 previously found by this Court to be voluntary.
2 Specifically, the defendant seeks to
3 call a clinical psychologist, Dr. Robert Gordon,
4 to off er an opinion on the psychological
5 characteristics of the defendant as well as his
6 age and intellectual development and whether
7 these factors put him in an increased risk to
8 potentially make a false confession.
9 The defendant has asked the Court to
10 permit this testimony. He has done this by
11 making an offer of proof. In this case, because
12 of the limited availability of the special
13 prosecutor, who was trying the Avery matter, and
14 Dr. Gordon, who will be out of the state for
15 several weeks, the defense provided the Court and
16 the special prosecutor with a five-page written
17 report and an approximate three-hour direct
18 examination of Dr. Gordon on DVD in which
19 Dr. Gordon discusses the methods he used and the
20 findings he made in this case.
21 Today, the special prosecutor has an
22 opportunity to examine Dr. Gordon. The Court
23 will determine whether Dr. Gordon's
24 qualifications in conjunction with his proposed
25 testimony, will assist the jury in trying this
5
1 condensed to more of a computer generi
2 generated exhibit and Mr. -- uh, Dr. Gordon will
3 be testifying as to those, if Mr. Kratz has
4 questions of those. And he'll bring to those to
5 the stand as well, and I suppose we'll mark those
6 as exhibits if need be.
7 THE COURT: It -- the DVDs will be marked
8 for purposes of this hearing as Exhibits 1 and 2.
9 I'd ask you, Mr. Kratz I -- I can't tell you,
10 obviously to -- to, uh with any great
11 specificity -- to limit your examination, but I
12 would hope you could do it within an hour. You may
13 proceed.
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, we're the
15 moving party. I suppose we'll be -- I ' l l move
16 that Dr. Gordon testify at this time and, then,
17 we'll waive any further direct at this point.
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Dr. Gordon?
20 THE COURT: Come up here, Doctor, to be
21 sworn, please.
22 THE CLERK: Please raise your right
23 hand.
24 DR. ROBER'!' GORDON,
7
4 THE WITNESS: Please bear with me just a
5 minute, please. My name is Robert H. Gordon,
6 G-o-r-d-o-n.
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 Q Dr. Gordon, good afternoon. My name is Ken
10 Kratz. I'm special prosecutor in this case. I
11 had the pleasure of watching your direct
12 examination on DVD which, as I understand was,
13 uh, taken sometime in March. I think it was
14 March 12. Is that your recollection?
15 A I recall it was close in time to that. I don't have
16 the exact date, Mr. Kratz. I could look on my, uh,
17 palm pilot if you like
18 Q That's fine. I --
19 A to verify.
20 Q I -- I've seen the direct. The first series
21 of questions I have of you, Doctor, is your
22 experience in this particular area. That is,
23 providing testimony regarding suggestibility or
24 vulnerability to suggestibility. Let me ask you,
25 in the state of Wisconsin, on how many occasions
8
1 have you testified in a trial setting that is
2 before either a judge or a jury in a trial, uh,
3 as to this particular issue? That is,
4 vulnerability to suggestibility?
5 A In a trial or an offer of proof as well?
6 Q I think Was my question not clear?
7 A No.
8 Q I asked in in a trial, how many times have you
9 testified?
10 A One time. Well, I -- one time to be exact. There
11 may be more. I -- I don't keep record of that. I
12 I should.
13 Q Well, if it was more than one, would that be
14 something that you'd remember?
15 A Probably not, considering the number of cases I see
16 in given year. And I've been doing this since 1976.
17 Q You've been testifying about suggestibility since
18 1976?
19 A No, that -- I cannot say. Probably, uh, since 1985,
20 1995. I really can't say, Counsel, with any --
21 Q So sometime within that ten-year period, you've
22 been testifying about suggestibility. Is that
23 your testimony?
24 A I -- sometime within that period of time I have
25 testified once in a trial. I have conducted
9
1 evaluations and also attended and -- presentations
2 and given presentations regarding this. That's very
3 much true.
4 Q Okay. Uh, do you remember in which county that
5 testimony occurred in?
6 A I -- I don't know the name of the county. I know the
7 city was Wausau. I -- I think that's Marathon
8 County, if I'm not mistaken.
9 Q It is. Are you aware, Dr. Gordon, of, um -- And
10 I think in your direct you talked about the, uh,
11 limitations on your opinions that -- that you
12 offer. Um, that wasn't, uh, very artfully asked.
13 Let me try again.
14 Uh, let's start with what you are not
15 offering opinions on. As I understand, that you
16 are unable or unwilling to off er an opinion as to
17 whether any statement, uh, in this case the
18 statement by Mr. Dassey, was true or whether it
19 was not true; is that correct?
20 A That's very correct. It would be unethical for me to
21 do that and I would seriously doubt whether the Judge
22 would even let me do that even if I so chose to do
23 that.
24 Q Do you know the reason for that? I mean, I
25 understand that you have a forensic background,
10
1 meaning the intersection of the, uh, field of,
2 uh, psychology with that of law. Uh, do you know
3 why you aren't allowed to testify or comment on
4 the credibility of any other witness?
5 A I'm not a human lie detector, and I don't invade the
6 province of the trier of fact when they need to
7 consider very weighty questions regardless of whether
8 it's this matter or a fitness trial or NG! or
9 whatever the case may be.
10 Q All right. You indicated in your direct
11 examination that you performed a battery of
12 tests, uh, pointing you to the ultimate
13 conclusion that Mr. Dassey, uh, was, uh,
14 substantially more vulnerable to suggestibility.
15 Um, do I understand your opinion to -- that that
16 was your opinion?
17 A That was one of my opinions, yes.
18 Q The other opinion had to do with the, um -- or
19 taking the next step or the next leap, if you
20 will, uh, that that somehow, necessarily, means
21 that Mr. Dassey, uh, is also more prone or more
22 apt to give a false confession rather than just a
23 confession. Was that also your opinion?
24 A He's more apt to give a confession. If one's more
25 apt to give a confession, it's, therefore, more
11
1 likely to give true confessions as well as false
2 confessions.
3 Q And that brings me to the point of why you might
4 be asked to testify and what the jury might gain
5 from your testimony. You understand that you'll
6 only be allowed in this case to testify if you
7 actually add something to the equation? That is,
8 if you assist the trier of fact. You understand
9 that?
10 A I -- my -- my role would be to make a confusing
11 matter less confusing. And if I'm not able to do
12 that, then my role is not in this chair.
13 Q All right. And, so, if your opinion -- And let
14 me just ask you. Is your opinion that Brendan
15 was more susceptible or more vulnerable to making
16 a -- any kind of confession in this case given
17 the constellation of not only his IQ but his
18 personality traits?
19 A Not to quibble, Mr. Kratz, but I think I said he is
20 very suggestible to do that. I used the word,
21 "very." That's the modifier.
22 Q I'm talking about confessions. Are you
23 suggesting that Brendan is more suggestible, uh,
24 or more vulnerable -- you also use the word
25 "vulnerable" -- to providing any confession to a
12
1 law enforcement official?
2 A True.
3 Q And whether that confession is a true confession
4 or whether that confession is a false confession,
5 I believe you've already conceded, uh, is best
6 decided -- in fact, legally, decided by the trier
7 of fact. By the jury.
8 A I need to correct your que -- your -- your statement.
9 I didn't concede anything. I'm not here to concede.
10 I'm not here to advocate. I'm here to tell what I
11 believe to be the truth based on my evaluation and
12 training. so, maybe --
13 Q Okay. What --
14 A -- if you could restate --
15 THE COURT: Here. One at a time.
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I'd ask that he answer
17 the question, Judge. If there's a problem with
18 that, we can
19 THE COURT: Doctor Gordon, you're starting
20 to get somewhat argumentative in that answer.
21 Just -- just answer the question that -- that is
22 asked of you.
23 THE WITNESS: May I have the question
24 read back, please?
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Sure.
13
1 (Question read back by the reporter.)
2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, there -- I
3 don't hear the question --
4 Q (By Attorney Kratz) I'll ask it one more time.
5 Is it your opinion that Brendan Dassey, uh, was
6 more vulnerable than the average person to
7 providing a, um, confession to law enforcement
8 officials?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Before performing your -- Or at least before --
11 I -- I understand that the -- the Gudjonsson, um,
12 Suggestibility Scale was the last, uh, test that
13 you spoke of, but, um, before administration of
14 that test of Brendan, were you able to predict
15 those results? That is, by knowing Brendan's IQ
16 and, uh, personality characteristics, were the
17 results of that test predictive for you?
18 A There's a correlation with those other factors. So
19 if I was asked to speculate about what his scores on
20 the Gudjonsson Scale would be, I could speculate but,
21 uh -- because there's a correlation. But, uh,
22 there's a -- it's not a one-to-one correlation, so
23 that everyone that has a low IQ, everyone that has
24 certain personality characteristics automatically
25 scores certain way on the Gudjonsson Scale, that's
14
1 not true, and so -- but I -- I can -- I would have
2 some hypotheses.
3 Q Okay. We'll get to Gudjonsson in
4 just a minute. But let's talk about a person's
5 actual ability to resist suggestion. Um, would
6 you agree, Doctor, that, um, an individual's, um,
7 observed ability to resist, um, suggestion would
8 be a better measuring tool or better measuring
9 stick, uh, than Gudjonsson or any of your other,
10 urn, psychological testing you use in this case?
11 A Well, I'm not in a position to say what is
12 necessarily better. There are just different tools
13 and different -- it's important to rely on data from
14 a variety of sources. And -- and objective testing
15 is helpful because there are objective norms and
16 standards that you can compare a person to.
17 But it's important, also, to obtain
18 observed data, interview data, collateral data.
19 Um, so I could compare it to going fishing. I
20 mean, you could -- it's good to take live bait,
21 it's good to take artificial lures, and, uh --
22 and not just rely on one or the other because you
23 never know about the day.
24 Q Well, the problem with the fishing analogy in
25 this case is the jury's going to see Brendan's
15
1 actual interaction with the police; isn't that
2 true?
3 A That's -- that's -- I don't know what's -- That's my
4 understanding would be the case.
5 Q Correct. That's something that you looked at.
6 That was one of the factors that you considered
7 in forming your ultimate opinion; is that true?
8 A That's true.
9 Q Are you aware, Doctor, that, in this case, not
10 from some test results, but in this case, on a
11 number of occasions, Brendan was able, uh, to
12 resist suggestions by law enforcement officers
13 when involved in, uh, his interrogation?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Is it your opinion that you considered those, um,
16 instances of, um, where Brendan resisted those
17 efforts by law enforcement?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Another factor that you considered -- or at least
20 in your direct examination you indicated that you
21 considered -- was Brendan's recantation. That
22 ·is, that sometime after his, uh, admission, or
23 his statement of culpability, uh, he recanted
24 that statement. Is that a fair characterization
25 of your testimony?
16
1 A I believe so, yes.
2 Q Could you explain why it is that a recantation or
3 a retraction of a confession is an important
4 consideration for you?
5 A It's an important consideration in that there's a
6 correlation between coerced confessions and the
7 length of time that the recantation took place. The
8 sooner the recantation, the -- it's correlated
9 with -- the research shows it's correlated with more
10 likelihood that there is -- there was a -- a coerced
11 confession.
12 Q Right. And that's where we need to go back to
13 your opinion. Are you now offering an opinion
14 that this was a coerced confession? You've used
15 that term.
16 A No, that's not for me to decide. Urn, I'm talking
17 about the defendant's psychological vulnerability
18 and -- and the likelihood that he was suggestible and
19 offered such a statement. So, it's a factor that I
20 considered.
21 Q Well, it's -- it -- it's a -- it's a factor if we
22 assume or if we presuppose that this was a
23 coerced confession. If it wasn't a coerced
24 confession, recantation really doesn't factor in;
25 isn't that true?
17
1 A True.
2 Q So assuming Or if we can get the Judge or a
3 jury to assume that this was a coerced
4 confession, then your placing weight on the
5 recantation would have some meaning; is that

6 right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q All right.
9 A I'm sorry. I didn't -- I thought you were done with
10 the question.
11 Q Are you -- No, I was. Thank you. Are you aware
12 of the circumstances under which Brendan
13 retracted or recanted his admission or
14 confession?
15 A If I -- I don't recall at the present time.
16 Q Do you even know if that was his idea or if it
17 was the idea of another family member that he
18 change his story or change it back to his
19 original statement?
20 A I would be speculating. Although I -- about the
21 dynamics that led to his recantation. If that was
22 what -- I mean, he recanted it, and whether it was
23 false or true, um -- and I know that there was family
24 influence.
25 Q Well, would that be an important consideration?
18
1 Would it be important for you to know if it was
2 somebody else's idea or if the genesis of that
3 retraction or recantation was from somebody other
4 than the subject who was involved in the
5 interrogation?
6 A Well, it would be important to know because then I
7 would know I would have a better idea of whether
8 it was the the person -- the defendant making the
9 recantation. But it also would be important because
10 then it would further provide support to the
11 conclusion that he would be suggestible to other
12 people's influence as well.
13 Q I see. So either way it really supports your --
14 A It -- it's a --
15 Q your opinion then; right?
16 A It's a wash either way.
17 Q I see. Are you offering an opinion on the -- And
18 we may be quibbling about terms here. But I need
19 to know if this is your opinion on the what's
20 called the reliability of, um, Brendan's
21 statements to law enforcement officials?
22 A No, I -- I'm not offering an opinion about that.
23 Q Are you offering an opinion on whether Brendan's
24 statements ought to be believed by anybody,
25 whether it's the Judge or a jury?
19
1 A Absolutely not. And that -- that's even contained in
2 the first page of my report to Mr. Fremgen dated
3 November 15, 2006.
4 Q I'm -- I didn't see the words "ought to be
5 believed."
6 A Oh, I -- Okay. It's -- it's implied then. Sorry.
7 It just clarifies my role.
8 Q Let me just read you, then, Mr. Fremgen's -- And
9 so you don't feel like you're being tricked or
10 set up, I'm going to quote from Mr. Fremgen's
11 offer to this Court.
12 Doctor Gordon is expected to testify
13 that based upon the evaluation of the defendant,
14 the evaluator's specialized knowledge in the area
15 of psychology of confessions, and his review of
16 relevant research in this regard, that Brendan's
17 Dassey's statements to law enforcement are,
18 quote, not reliable and that they are the product
19 of significant suggestibility.
20 A They might not
21 Q Just so we're sure
22 A They might --
23 Q -- you've indicated that is not your opinion; is
24 that correct?
25 A That's not exactly my opinion.
20
1 Q The decision or the -- the differences between
2 admissibility of a statement, that is, whether
3 they should be considered by a jury, you
4 understand is a function of the Court. That is,
5 the Court gets to decide whether or not a
6 statement is, in fact, admissible?
7 A That's why we're having this hearing. And he will
8 make the decision, yes.
9 Q Well, the decision on admissibility has already
10 been made. Did you know that?
11 A I did. The suppression hearing took place, and there
12 was a motion to have another suppression, and that
13 was denied.
14 Q Okay. So what makes you think that this hearing
15 is about whether this statement is admissible or
16 not?
17 A That was my error. I beg your pardon.
18 Q All right. So you understand now that that's
19 already been decided?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And usually the issues of coercion or
22 suggestibility or improper influence or
23 vulnerability go to the issues of whether a jury
24 should hear the statement in the first instance.
25 That is, it goes to the issues of admissibility,
21
1 not the weight or the trustworthiness of the
2 statements?
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I object. I
4 don't think that's necessarily accurate based upon
5 Jury Instruction 180, which deals with the jury's
6 right to decide whether to believe a statement in
7 whole or in part. And how they come about and get
8 to that point I think is up to the jury.
9 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the
10 objection. Also, that it seems to me there's a
11 foundational objection, too. That was a compound,
12 beyond compound, question. I -- we're talking about
13 coercion and vulnerability and too many things. So
14 the objection's sustained.
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: All right. I can -- I can
16 certainly, uh, break that into separate components.
17 Q (By Attorney Kratz) The decision of whether a
18 statement is coercive to the point of being
19 unlawfully so is a decision for the Court. You
20 understand that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And the trustworthiness, or the reliability, or
23 whether a statement ought to be believed, do you
24 agree is a function for the jury to consider?
25 A It's the function of the -- of the judge at the time
22
1 of a motion to suppress and -- and at the time of a
2 trial it's the decision of the jury.
3 Q All right. Then, I guess, we've come full
4 circle, Doctor, understanding that reliability is
5 a decision for the jury and something that you're
6 not willing to offer an opinion. on. And
7 understanding that, uh, admissibility is a
8 decision for the Court, how is it that you
9 believe that you can assist this jury in the
10 consideration of a fact at issue? That is, how
11 are you going to help this jury yourself?
12 A Well, the way it was stated by Mr. Fremgen, when
13 you've talked about reliability, painted it in a very
14 black and white terms, I am here to talk about
15 scientific ways to evaluate a person's psychological
16 vulnerability to respond to leading questions or
17 respond to external pressure.
18 Uh, I am not an expert regarding police
19 interrogation. That would be a Dr. Richard Leo,
20 attorney, social psychologist and -- and
21 sociologist at the University of California in
22 San Francisco. He would be much more in a
23 position to talk about external factors.
24 I'm talk -- I'm here to talk to you, or
25 to the Court, or whoever might want to listen,
23
1 uh, about what psychological tests, what history,
2 what research, what a person's social history has
3 to do with the likelihood that they will be
4 suggestible.
5 Q I appreciate your answer. The question, though,
6 was how is that going to help the jury? How does
7 that help them decide part of this case? What
8 are you helping them decide?
9 A I would help them decide how much weight to place on
10 Brendan Dassey's confession. Uh, they might decide
11 if I -- they find me an incredible witness, to place
12 a hundred percent weight on his confession. Or, if
13 they think that information I provide is proba -- is
14 probative, not prejudicial, assist them, then they
15 might decide to be more cautious in ace -- totally
16 or partially accepting his testimony. That's their
17 job.
18 Q If allowed to testify in this trial, Doctor, we
19 will undoubtedly go through the Wechsler -- the
20 16, uh, PF and, um, in great extent, the MMPI.
21 But for today, I'm going to limit my questions to
22 the -- the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale, um,
23 as that appears to be what you called the, uh --
24 the best measure or best objective test on the
25 issue of suggestibility. You still hold that
24
1 opinion, I assume?
2 A As long as it's understood that it's one component of
3 a comprehensive, uh, evaluation.
4 Q I do. And -- and I'll concede in in your
5 direct examination you talked about IQ and
6 personality characteristics as -- as well. And I
7 think
8 A Those are very crucial as well.
9 Q And Mr. Gudjonsson, I think, uh, suggests or
10 mandates the same as well. The, um,
11 administration of the, uh, Gudjonsson Scale, the
12 GSS we'll -- we'll call it for, uh -- for short,
13 as I understand, is intended to mimmick, uh, a
14 police interrogation. Is that -- is that fair?
15 A That's barely fair. It's making -- it's a very
16 simplifying it very much --
17 Q All right.
18 A -- but, uh
19 Q I'm sure you're going to --
20 A -- so we can facilitate the discussion and have it
21 flow, I'll say, yes.
22 Q Why don't you, uh why don't you explain, as
23 best you can, how this particular test is
24 designed to replicate or to mimmick a, uh -- a
25 police interrogation?
25
1 A I'll be glad to do that. An individual is presented
2 a battery of tests so they don't realize that their
3 suggestibility is being tested at that particular
4 point in time. The test is presented as a memory
5 test, and they're told that I'm going to read you a
6 story. This is paraphrasing. I -- I could pull out
7 the manual and give you the exact instructions,
8 but
9 Q Would you -- would you mind, terribly, if I-
10 interrupted you as -- as -- as we go along? Is
11 there anything about a police interrogation where
12 a -- a subject is told this is a memory test and
13 not not an interrogation?
14 A Uh, I don't believe that -- they -- they might be
15 told different things, but I don't think they're told
16 that.
17 Q All right. I -- I'm trying to see the
18 similarities, but -- but maybe you can point
19 to -- to those things that are meant to be --
20 A Well --
21 Q -- similar to an interrogation. I know how the
22 test works. I've seen your direct. You don't
23 need to go through all that
24 A Okay.
25 Q -- just how is it similar to an interrogation?
26
1 A It's similar in that a person is told a criminal act
2 that allegedly has taken place, and the outcome, and
3 details, and -- and then they are asked to first
4 report their recollection of what they've been read.
5 Q Let me stop you there. In your direct
6 examination you omitted that part of the results.
7 That is, that is the, um -- the recitation or
8 the, um, uh, the memory part of it. Tell me
9 how -- all you can remember, I think, are is
10 probably what Gudjonsson suggests you ask about
11 the story. Uh, how did Brendan do on that part
12 of the test since we never heard about that on
13 direct examination?
14 A I did not score that. I -- I recorded his responses
15 to -- in order to administer the test in a way that
16 was in a standardized administration. But those
17 scores are not used. The reporting is not used to
18 obtain quantifiable information designed to assess
19 for the suggestibility part.
20 Q So the ability to accurately recount, urn, the
21 story or specific facts of the story, really
22 isn't something that is scored. At least, it
23 isn't scored on a where there's norms or where
24 you're able to to assign some percentiles; is
25 that correct?
27
1 A True.
2 Q Okay. As I understand, then, after, uh, that
3 occurs, the first, um, series of Well, I
4 apologize. Let me go back. The the kind of
5 memory, and I assume that you know about memory,
6 and -- and how it works, and -- and different
7 kinds of memory, do you know what kind of memory
8 it's called where you, uh, parrot back or, um,
9 recall a story that's been read to you?
10 A Well, one that comes immediately to mind, there may
11 be others, is recall, or short -- very -- short-term
12 memory.
13 Q Have you ever heard of the term "semantic
14 memory?"
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know the differences between semantic
17 memory and autobiographical or event kinds of
18 memory?
19 A No.
20 Q Let me ask you, Dr., uh, Gordon, um, if a person
21 is asked to remember or recall or describe
22 something that's read to them, do they remember
23 that differently than an event which they
24 actually lived through?
25 A Yes.
28
1 Q Do you know individuals with Brendan's particular
2 intellectual difficulties, whether they are
3 better able -- significantly better able to
4 recall events that they've actually lived through
5 rather than something that's read to them or book
6 kind of learning?
7 A All of us would be able to better remember, unless
8 we're severely traumatized, events that we've been
9 through, uh, but especially a person who, uh, has
10 limited intellectual functioning, then they might be
11 able to better concentrate -- better remember things
12 they experienced in a multi-sensual -- very senses
13 way than if they simply heard something read to them.
14 Q Well, let -- let me just ask you if you're aware
15 of studies that suggest that, especially
16 individuals with intellectual difficulties, that
17 they are much, much better at event kinds of
18 memory? That is, they have higher accuracy, less
19 tendency to acquiesce, uh, than, um, the semantic
20 or this, urn, other kind of memory that you've
21 described after hearing a story. Understand my
22 question?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Are you aware of those studies?
25 A I'm not aware of the studies, but, uh, based on my
29
1 knowledge of the area, that would not surprise me.
2 Q Makes sense?
3 A Sure.
4 Q And, so, the -- the replication or mimicking an
5 interrogation, would you, um, agree that,
6 especially in an individual with intellectual
7 difficulties, urn, that they might be expected to,
8 um, recall in more detail, to be more accurate
9 and, in fact, less susceptible to suggestibility
10 with something that they've lived through rather
11 than a story that's read to them?
12 A If you only consider that factor and not their
13 limited intellectual functioning and limited memory,
14 then the answer would be, yes.
15 Q All right. By the way, the, um -- the raw scores
16 and everything that you've, uh, testified to, um,
17 or about here today, uh, had you heard of or did
18 you, um, comply with, the State's demand or
19 request for that raw data with the information?
20 A I was made aware of that request this morning.
21 Q Okay. Is that something you can comply with
22 before trial?
23 A Before trial, but under limited conditions. I've
24 purchased those instruments with written agreements
25 that I would not disseminate those -- that
30
1 information to anyone other than psychologists or to
2 psychiatrists for the Gudjonsson Inventory that don't
3 have the training in the eyes of the publisher or the
4 developer to have an adequate understanding of the
5 ways to interpret those results. And so I could
6 not -- I would be violating what I signed and
7 violating my ethics as a psychologist to reveal the
8 raw data to you.
9 If, on the other hand, and this is how
10 I've handled this before and on many occasions,
11 if you had a psychologist retained by you, I
12 could send that psychologist my entire file
13 without exception.
14 Q That information is just inappropriate or too
15 dangerous in my hands? Is that what you're --
16 what you're saying?
17 A I don't like to say too dangerous. It just might be
18 misused -~ misunderstood. Not -- not doubt -- due to
19 any, uh, intention on your part.
20 Q I -- I would ask you questions based upon your
21 raw data. You understand that; right?
22 A I understand.
23 Q I would ask you questions based upon the notes
24 that you took. You understand that?
25 A You can -- Let me clarify. My notes are -- are yours
31
1 to have.
2 Q All right.
3 A But I'm talking about the test reports. I mean,
4 excuse me. The test answer sheets. The test
5 questions. That is what I cannot share with you. I
6 can share everything else with you, but not that.
7 Q That brings me to another, uh -- another
8 question. Did you, um, videotape the
9 administration of the Gudjonsson Suggestibility
10 Scale?
11 A No.
12 Q Can you tell us why?
13 A Well, I've testified probably -- I don't know. You
14 can -- Please don't impeach me if I get the wrong
15 number from any direct. I've probably testified a
16 thousand times or so, and -- and I've done thousands
17 of evaluations of different sorts. And it's not
18 common practice at all to videotape those
19 evaluations.
20 And, actually, it would be a deviation
21 from standardized practice to do so. And I
22 operate according to a certain protocol and
23 and try to -- my best to have an objective
24 evaluation that is fair, straight forward,
25 honest, and the results are based on objective
32
1 ways of conducting the evaluation.
2 Arn I distorted if that recording was --
3 I've -- if it was going? I've had attorneys ask
4 to sit in. I say, if you need to sit in, then I
5 won't do the evaluation. I can respect your need
6 to do that, but that's not how it's done.
7 Q In this case, you got a chance to watch the
8 investigators ask, um, coercive or interrogation
9 kind of questions; isn't that right?
10 A I had a chance to --
11 Q That's -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.
12 A I had a chance to watch them interrogate, uh, Brendan
13 Dassey.
14 Q Right.
15 A It's -- whether they were coercive, uh, depends on
16 the particular question.
17 Q You understand that the reasons, at least in
18 Wisconsin, that, um, courts and, in fact, the
19 legislature has mandated or required police
20 officers to videotape those kinds of, uh,
21 interrogations and so it removes any question
22 about, uh, how those questions might have been
23 asked or, uh, um, what influences might have been
24 placed upon the -- the subject of that. You
25 understand that?
33
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I'd object to
2 that question. I don't know if there's been any
3 foundation that this witness knows that that's
4 the law in Wisconsin and whether this witness is
5 aware of the Young case. And I'm not even sure
6 it's necessarily relevant for the purposes of
7 this issue about the admissibility or the offer
8 of proof to allow for this person to testify at
9 trial.
10 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the
11 objection. There -- there really hasn't been a
12 foundation laid for it. I do have some relevance
13 concerns. If you want to try to lay a foundation
14 and ask if Okay.
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I can certainly wait for
16 trial to -- to do that, Judge.
17 Q (By Attorney Kratz) I think, uh, uh, you expect
18 us to believe you as to what the answers were.
19 That's the bottom line; isn't it?
20 A Your job is to question me. Uh, my job is to try to,
21 uh, be as objective, as fair as possible. But
22 whether you believe me, that Your job is not to
23 believe me. Your job is to question me. Your job is
24 to cross-examine me.
25 Q You'd like this Court to believe that those were
34
1 the answers that Brendan gave; is that right?
2 A My --
3 Q Without the benefit of -- of either -- either the
4 raw results or a videotape or something else?
5 A My hope is that my testimony would help the trier of
6 fact make appropriate decisions and -- and render
7 justice in this case.
8 Q Okay. Let's go to the second part of the GSS
9 where the subject is provided with, uh, many
10 times, leading questions. In fact, most of the
11 25 questions, as I understand, are leading
12 questions; is that true?
13 A That's not true. There are 20 questions total.
14 Q Twenty. You said 25 in the direct. I'm sorry.
15 There's 20 total?
16 A All right. I beg your pardon. Well, there are 20
17 total. My error.
18 Q Okay. And of the 20 questions, most of them are
19 leading; is that right?
20 A Three-fourths, yes.
21 Q And they're meant to gauge whether or not a
22 subject is willing to acquiesce or to yield to a
23 particular alternative or to a particular
24 question; is that true?
25 A Yes. They measure the extent which an individual
35
1 yields to leading questions.
2 Q Importantly, Doctor, in -- within this test, um,
3 some of -- and perhaps you can correct me -- most
4 of the questions that are presented are, uh, what
5 are called, uh, false alternative leading
6 questions; is that true?
7 A I believe -- There are false alternative leading
8 questions, but they're not the majority. I -- I
9 could come up with a number, if you'd like.
10 Q Well, no, if we -- We're going to probably get a
11 more detailed summary at some point. But this
12 methodology mandates that the questions don't
13 really have a true answer. In other words, it's
14 a question like, did the lady have a red hat or a
15 blue hat when she may not have had a hat at all.
16 Isn't that fair?
17 A That's fair. That's one type of question on there,
18 that's true.
19 Q All right. How -- how is this test, then,
20 similar, or that part of the test, how is it
21 similar or how does it replicate or how does it
22 mirnrnick a police interrogation?
23 A It would mirnrnick a police interrogation if a -- if
24 leading questions were asked.
25 Q Leading false questions; right?
36
1 A Leading
2 Q Leading false alternative questions.
3 A L~ading false questions or leading true questions or
4 leading false alternative questions.
5 Q Really. So, if a subject answers correctly when
6 a true answer is provided, do they get a point
7 for yielding?
8 A I want to make sure I have the -- your question.
9 Q If a leading question is provided to a subject in
10 the GSS, and if one of the answers is a correct
11 or a true answer, and the individual correctly
12 answers that leading question, are they provided
13 a point for yielding?
14 A That wouldn't be a leading question if they're asked
15 an accurate question.
16 Q Really?
17 A There are 5 of 20 questions that are not yielding.
18 Q That are not leading?
19 A I mean not leading.
20 Q If I ask you, urn, my shirt's blue, isn't it?

21 That's a leading question, isn't it?
22 A It is.
23 Q And it contains a true statement. In other
24 words, if you answered, yes, you'd be answering
25 my leading question; isn't that --
37
1 A True.
2 Q -- true?
3 A True.
4 Q If Brendan, or anybody else who takes this test,
5 answers a leading question that has the correct
6 answer in it truthfully or correctly, do they get
7 a point for yielding?
8 A No.
9 Q When a police officer, then, asks an individual,
10 asks a suspect, whether or not they did a certain
11 act or whether or not they, um, involved
12 themselves in a crime, even if it was in a
13 leading way, how does that then replicate or
14 rnimmick the GSS?
15 A It would be similar to your blue shirt, and they
16 would not get a point. It would not -- it would be
17 not leading, according to Gudjonsson's definition,
18 but I could see why you're calling it leading. And
19 they would not get a point on the Gudjonsson test and
20 they would not, uh, be seen as trying to influence
21 the subject.
22 Q Which brings me to my point, then. The import of
23 the Gudjonsson leading questions are that they
24 contain false answers or false alternatives.
25 That's true; isn't it?
38
1 A That's true.
2 Q All right. And, so, the assumption that has to
3 be made, at least the assumption if this is to be
4 given any validity, is that the police officers
5 in an interrogation that this was meant to
6 mimmick, also have to have provided false
7 alternatives or false suggestions; isn't that
8 true?
9 A That's why when you said, does it mimmick, I said
10 that's simplifying it. So, um, that's true. I mean,
11 what you said is true. It -- it -- it -- it
12 doesn't -- it's not -- doesn't totally mimmick a
13 police interrogation.
14 Q By the way -- I -- I'm jumping ahead, but -- but
15 I'm doing it for a point. The, um, results or
16 the opinions that are able to be drawn from the
17 GSS scores include whether an individual is
18 vulnerable to making a false confession; is that
19 true?
20 A That's true.
21 Q Okay. Doctor, are you aware of any problems with
22 the, um -- the methodology of suggesting the very
23 result within a question and then that leading to
24 an ultimate conclusion? Do you understand my
25 question?
39
1 A It's confirmatory bias.
2 Q Right. And, in fact, the GSS, you're providing a
3 subject with a false statement that, if they
4 adopt, you're then able to opine that the person
5 is vulnerable to making false statements or false
6 confessions; isn't that true?
7 A Compared to the norms on which the test is based,
8 yes.
9 Q And are you aware of whether the GSS has been
10 criticized for that very methodology?
11 A No.
12 Q The next part of the test that again, correct
13 me if I'm wrong -- is meant to mirnmick or
14 replicate an interrogation is use of mild
15 coercion. In fact, it's a, uh, statement of
16 disappointment or a statement of, um,
17 condemnation as to previous answers that were
18 given; is that true?
19 A Everything but the word "condemnation.'' I think that
20 might too strong.
21 Q All right. Something akin to folding your arms,
22 telling Brendan, or whoever the subject is, that
23 I'm disappointed in your answers, I think you can
24 do better, um, and suggest that they try harder
25 this time, and then they're asked the same series
40
1 of questions. Is that basically it?
2 A You're -- you're -- Yes, you've made a number of
3 errors. It is, therefore, necessary to go through
4 the questions once more, and this time try have
5 you try more accurate -- to be more accurate. So
6 it's -- it's not as harsh as -- as you state. But
7 it -- but it does, nonetheless, uh, express the
8 belief that they could do better the next time.
9 Q All right. And this, um, series of observations
10 that you make, then, if, in fact, the subject
11 follows your suggestion and then changes their
12 answer, which is really what it is, is then
13 counted as what's called a shift; is that right?
14 A True.
15 Q This shift norm, or the normal score, or the
16 score of that population which was administered
17 this test, as I understand, is two or something
18 just above two; is that right?
19 A That is correct for adult populations. And Brendan
20 is being -- he's still a adolescent, but he's --
21 we're talking about adult court, so it could --
22 different norms could be used -- could be debated
23 that adolescent norms might be more appropriate.
24 Q And that population against which Brendan was
25 compared, that norm, if you would, do you know,
41
1 um, what the backgrounds of those individuals
2 were or generally what kind of, um, people were
3 used to establish these norms?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Were any of them incarcerated for first degree
6 murder? In other words, was this test
7 administered to anybody while in jail for first
8 degree intentional homicide?
9 A I don't know. I'd have to check the manual.
10 Q Let me ask you, Dr., uh, Gordon, before
11 administering this test to Brendan, did you tell
12 him that you were working on his behalf? That
13 is, that you were a defense expert?
14 A No.
15 Q Did he know who you were before you sat down and
16 spoke with him?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How did he know that?
19 A Oh, did he know in advance?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I don't know. Sometime -- In this particular case.
22 Sometimes attorneys tell their client that I'll be
23 coming and sometimes they don't tell them. Or maybe
24 even -- even if they're told, they don't remember.
25 So, I don't know.
42
1 Q I -- I guess what I'm getting at is, how did you
2 introduce yourself and how did Brendan know why
3 you were there to speak with him that day?
4 A I told him that I was there at the request of his
5 attorney to do a psychological evaluation, that --
6 and with without specific regard to suggestibility
7 was not mentioned.
8 Q I understand that. My point is, you had
9 identified yourself with being aligned with the
10 defense team? There on behalf of his defense
11 attorney?
12 A No. If you'd let me finish, I -- I could clarify
13 that.
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I'd object
15 anyways. I don't know if it's, again, relevant for
16 purposes of today's hearing to determine the
17 admissibility or the use of an expert at test -- to
18 testify in -- in this particular area. I understand
19 that it might go to weight and how the weight would
20 be, uh -- how the testimony would be considered by
21 the trier of fact. But that's not the issue. The
22 issue is whether the trier of fact should even be
23 allowed to hear that. Weigh this up to the trier of
24 fact. We should leave that up to them.
25 THE COURT: Yeah. I -- I'll overrule that
43
1 objection. I think this -- this threshold question
2 can be asked. Beyond this, no. Go ahead, you may
3 answer if you remember the question.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't, Your Honor. I'm
5 sorry.
6 THE COURT: Can you reask that,
7 Mr. Kratz --
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Sure.
9 THE COURT: -- please?
10 Q (By Attorney Kratz) I think you were, um,
11 explaining how you identified yourself and why it
12 was that you were there to see Brendan.
13 A I explained my purpose of being there with Brendan as
14 no different than I do any, other time. I explain who
15 requested that I do the evaluation. That I'm there
16 to do an evaluation. Sometimes, if it's for fitness
17 or some specific reason, then I might tell them, but
18 in regards to suggestibility, that I don't tell them
19 specifically.
20 I tell them that I'm going to do an
21 overall evaluation at the request of their
22 attorney. That they don't have to answer
23 questions if they don't choose to. That I do a
24 fair and objective evaluation to the best of my
25 ability. I cannot guarantee the results. If the
44
1 results are not pleasing or consistent with their
2 case in the eyes of their attorney, they don't
3 have to be used.
4 And I then talk to them to try to see if
5 they understand my explanation. If they don't,
6 then I try to explain some more. I tell them
7 that I'm -- might be retained by their attorney.
8 I might be paid by their attorney. But I'm there
9 to do an objective, fair, straight forward
10 assessment. And my assessment might be a waste
11 of their money.
12 Q All right. As I understand it, the subject who's
13 the -- or the subject of the -- of the test
14 changes their answer, they're given a -- a point,
15 if you will, for a shift for -- for changing that
16 answer; is that right?
17 A True.
18 Q What if they change their answer to what would
19 otherwise be the correct answer? That is, uh, if
20 they, uh, said, uh, at first that the lady had a
21 red hat on, and then later, as I gave in my
22 previous example, tells you the lady didn't have
23 any hat on, does he still get a -- a point for
24 shifting?
25 A In -- regardless if he shifts from correct to false
45
1 or false to correct, he gets the point for shifting.
2 Q All right. -Now, in real life, which is really
3 why we're here, what is that trying to mimmick?
4 In other words, shifting from an incorrect answer
5 and then giving a correct answer? Why would that
6 be considered something of a negative or sug
7 going to suggestibility or, uh, getting a shift
8 score?
9 A Because I'm not here to evaluate whether a person's
10 telling the truth or not. I'm evaluating whether
11 they were susceptible to suggestibility. That is
12 also measured by yielding and shifting their
13 responses.
14 Q In the real world, if a subject of a
15 interrogation -- of an interrogation -- denies a
16 fact or denies an involvement, and let's assume
17 for this question that, um -- that they did that,
18 that that's a true thing that they've been asked
19 about, and they said, no, I didn't do that,
20 officer asks them again or maybe even, um,
21 provides them with some, um, evidence that they
22 were involved in that, and the person shifts to
23 the correct answer or admits that they did it,
24 would that be an example, at least with the GSS,
25 of being a shift?
46
1 A It would.
2 Q Being suggestible?
3 A It could. It depends on, also, whether the
4 information supplied by the police officer to the
5 individual is -- is accurate and -- and is known.
6 Q Right. I've -- I've asked you to assume that.
7 But that would still be a shift; wouldn't it --
8 A It would.
9 Q in the GSS?
10 A It would. Sorry.
11 Q All right. So, the ability to measure somebody's
12 vulnerability to suggestibility, at least by this
13 instrument, is not, urn, any comment upon the, uh,
14 truthfulness or, um, falsehood of that statement;
15 is that correct?
16 A That's true.
17 Q We've come full circle again. How, then, does
18 this instrument allow you or anybody else to
19 indicate that a person is more vulnerable to
20 giving a false confession rather than any kind of
21 confession?
22 A They're more vulnerable to giving a confession,
23 including a false confession. Also, a true
24 confession, if they have increased scores on the
25 Gudjonsson. Your point's well taken.
47
1 THE COURT: Any additional questions,
2 Counsel?
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Just -- just one, uh --
4 one area, Judge.
5 Q {By Attorney Kratz) Uh, Dr. Gordon, um, your
6 experience with the administration of the GSS,
7 uh, does it include individuals, or has it ever
8 included individuals, who have been charged with
9 first degree intentional homicide?
10 A No.
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: For purposes, then,
12 Judge, of the offer of proof and, um, for
13 purposes that, uh, we will be including in our
14 memorandum of law to the Court, that's all the
15 questions I have of this doctor. Thank you.
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I'd like to
18 redirect on a few, if the Court will allow me.
19 THE COURT: We had the DVD of
20 approximately three hours plus. All right.
21 Limited amount of redirect.
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Just limited. I'll
23 limit to six questions, Judge.
24 THE COURT: I'm going to hold you to that.
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine. I accept
48
1 that.
3 BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
4 Q Doctor, you were asked a number of questions
5 about the Gudjonsson Scale of Suggestibility;
6 correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Is that the only tool that you would employ in
9 order to get an accurate assessment of a subject
10 for purposes of suggestibility?
11 A Absolutely not.
12 Q The other tests, themselves, that you conducted,
13 were those conducted in -- in -- in an effort to
14 obtain a more comprehensive assessment?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And is there a purpose to take -- to, uh -- to,
17 uh, conducting more than one test in order to,
18 uh, assess a person's vulnerability to
19 suggestion?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What -- what is that purpose?
22 A Well, the different tests that I administered measure
23 different psychological factors in terms of a
24 person's intellectual and emotional functioning.
25 And, so, if I just relied on one test, then I might
49
1 not be measuring their intellectual functioning, or
2 if I just focused on a couple of tests, I might just
3 focus on their intellectual functioning and not their
4 personality characteristics or their suggestibility
5 on a suggestibility scale.
6 Q So, hypothetically, if one were, um -- had scores
7 that were high scores on GSS, but yet had, um,
8 test results that indicated that they are
9 socially ept and have high IQ, maybe high
10 A So
11 Q functioning, would -- would that, then, lead
12 you to a different conclusion using the GSS?
13 A It very well would lead me to a different conclusion.
14 That's hard to -- that's a hypothetical. I -- I
15 would still need to consider the entire evaluation.
16 I can tell you there's a correlation
17 between the GSS, the personality scores that
18 the personality scores from tests I used, as well
19 as IQ scores, as well as criminal behavior, as
20 well as age, etc. So there's a correlation, but
21 it doesn't -- the correlation, again, like I said
22 on direct to Mr. Kratz, is not one-to-one. So
23 there -- there could be exceptions to that rule.
24 THE WITNESS: That's a long answer. I'm
25 sorry, Judge.
50
1 Q (By Attorney Fremgen} My last question, then, to
2 kind of wrap this up. So, essentially you're
3 attempting to obtain, uh, sufficient data to
4 assess all of the psychological factors in the
5 psychological environment that affects a
6 subject's potential vulnerability to suggest
7 to suggestibility?
8 A Within a limited amount of time and limited
9 resources, I mean, uh -- Yes.
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. Thank you, very
11 much.
12 THE COURT: All right. Uh, you may step
13 down.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Before Dr., uh, Gordon
16 leaves, Judge, I am going to renew my demand for
17 Dr. Gordon's file despite, uh, Dr. Gordon's, uh,
18 apprehension regarding release of that
19 information.
21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Um, if, uh, in fact,
22 the Court does allow Dr. Gordon to testify, the
23 State certainly is entitled to, uh, discovery,
24 which includes the file, those raw materials,
25 notes, and whatever other information may be
51
1 contained in that file. I appreciate
2 Dr. Gordon's (inaudible) assure that I will be
3 sharing it with somebody other than myself.
4 Again, this is only if the Court allows that, and
5 perhaps the Court can issue a ruling at a later
6 time. But, uh, at the very least would ask the
7 Court order Dr~, uh, Gordon not to destroy or,
8 um, uh, discard anything that may currently be in
9 his file so that, if, in fact, the Court, uh,
10 provides a favorable ruling to the State, uh, at
11 some point, we are able to get all that raw
12 material.
13 THE COURT: The Court will so order.
14 Dr. Gordon, you heard that, did you not? You are
15 not to destroy any of the notes or materials that
16 comprise this file. By this file, I mean the
17 file -- the complete file on the, uh, interview and
18 testing of this defendant.
19 THE WITNESS: I would never do that,
20 Your Honor, in any case, unless it was over seven
21 years old or whatever the statutory requirements
22 permits.
23 THE COURT: All right. Um, the Court has
24 scheduled April 5 at 9:00 a.m. as a time to hear the
25 remaining motions. Uh, the -- counsel are aware
52
1 that they have until April 2, to -- if they intend
2 to have briefs -- brief their positions -- get that
3 brief into the Court. Uh, I ask each of them to
4 prepare a proposed order reflecting their position
5 based on the testimony here, as well as the DVDs,
6 and the, uh -- the applicable case law.
7 Uh, at that time the Court -- on
8 April 5, the Court, in considering the other
9 motions, will announce a decision on this one as
10 well. Anything else, gentlemen?
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Not for today. Thank you,
12 Judge.
13 THE COURT: All right. Can I see you --
14 Oop.
15 THE CLERK: Exhibits 1 and 2. Do you have
16 those?
17 THE COURT: I do.
18 THE CLERK: Are -- are they received, then?
19 THE COURT: They are received. Uh, with
20 the -- with the caveat, Exhibit 2, the second
21 DVD, appears not to work all the way through.
22 Uh, I trust Counsel has no objection to me
23 substituting a workable one?
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine. If, uh,
25 Mr. Kratz has no objection, I'll send you my
53
1 second
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Mr. Edelstein has a copy
4 already.
5 THE COURT: Very good. Uh, see counsel in
6 chambers for a brief meeting?
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thanks.
9 THE COURT: We're adjourned.
10 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED.}
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l STATE OF WISCONSIN )
)SS.
15 Dated this 3rd day of April, 2007.
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BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
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BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
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DEFENDANT.
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10 DATE: APRIL 5, 2007
11 BEFORE: HON. JEROME L. FOX

Circuit Court Judge
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APPEARANCES:
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KENNETH R. KRATZ
14 District Attorney
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THOMAS J. FALLON
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NORMAN A. GAHN
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MARK R. FREMGEN
20 Attorney at Law
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22 Attorney at Law
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BRENDAN R. DASSEY
24 Defendant
'~,.
li ,,, Appeared in person.
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COPY
1 'l'RANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
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1 THE COURT: This is the matter of the State
2 of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey, 06 CF 88.
5 Calumet County District Attorney, Ken Kratz,
6 Assistant Attorney General, Tom Fallon, Assistant
7 D.A., Norm Gahn, all appearing as special
8 prosecutors.
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Mark
10 Fremgen, Attorney Raymond Edelstein appear on
11 behalf and with Brendan Dassey.
12 THE COURT: All right. Today we're here
13 for a number of matters. Among them is a decision
14 on a request by the defense to, uh, have expert
15 testimony from a so-called false confession expert.
16 Uh, we have a number of motions that the
17 Court is going to consider today. Motions filed
18 both by the defense and by the prosecution. And
19 it's my understanding, gentlemen, just as a a
20 preliminary matter -- excuse me -- that you've
21 entered into a number of stipulations that will
22 be placed upon the record be -- before the -- the
23 end of court today; is that correct?
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, uh, we do have, uh,
25 the completed, uh, stipulations. There are, uh, 21
3
1 stipulations that have been entered into. This is a
2 document that is signed by myself and, uh,
3 Mr. Fremgen, both as lead counsel, and also by, uh,
4 Mr. Dassey. I would just ask the Court just take a
5 very brief moment to, uh, enter into a colloquy with
6 Mr. Dassey to ensure that, uh, these decisions, that
7 is, the decisions to agree to, uh, these facts and,
8 uh, admissibility of evidence as set forth in this
9 document, does, in fact, bear his signature and is a
10 free and voluntary choice.
11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dassey, you've
12 heard Mr. Kratz; haven't you?
14 THE COURT: Could you move the microphone
15 over there, please, Mr. Edelstein?
17 THE COURT: And did you understand him?
19 THE COURT: Uh, have you had a chance to
20 go through this document? I'm -- I'm holding
21 something up called ''trial stipulation." Your
22 counsel's showing you a copy of it.
24 THE COURT: And did you and your lawyers go
25 through it and were they read to you or did you read
4
1 them?
2 THE DEFENDANT: They read it to me.
3 THE COURT: Did they? And you understood
4 them?
6 THE COURT: You understood these to be
7 agreements that your counsel and the prosecution and
8 you were entering into?
10 THE COURT: And that these agreements
11 would, in some senses, uh, permit the, uh, admission
12 of certain facts without underlying testimony?
14 THE COURT: And you agree to that?
16 THE COURT: You understand you didn't have
17 to agree to that?
19 THE COURT: You understand that?
21 THE COURT: All right. And this is your
22 signature? And I'm you maybe can't see it from
23 here, but is that your signature on the final page?
25 THE COURT: All right. Anything else on
5
1 that?
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Not on the stipulation,
3 Judge. Thank you.
4 THE COURT: From -- from defense?
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I would just, for the
6 record, Judge, I did read the stipulations to
7 Mr. Dassey. He did not read them himself.
8 THE COURT: Correct.
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Um, he also -- when he
10 signed the stipulations, we discussed why we're
11 doing this, and I explained it would basically
12 streamline the trial somewhat, eliminate witnesses
13 that weren't necessarily that significant for either
14 the defense or, for the most part, for the State,
15 and I believe he understands that as well.
16 THE COURT: Uh, is it your belief that he
17 freely and voluntarily signed that, uh, set of
18 stipulations?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I believe so.
20 THE COURT: And that was after you had
21 read the matter to him and explained it; is that
22 correct?
24 THE COURT: All right. Uh, the first
25 matter I'd like to take up today is the offer of
6
1 proof made by the defense. Uh, the defense is
2 seeking to have admitted testimony from Dr. Robert
3 Gordon on the suggestibility of witnesses that could
4 or may or, uh, might lead to what he terms a false
5 confession.
6 Uh, the Court has reviewed the DVDs that
7 the defense had supplied, uh, providing, in
8 effect, a -- a direct examination of Dr. Gordon
9 on his background, on his education, on his
10 professional qualifications.
11 Uh, additionally, uh, Special Prosecutor
12 Kratz had an opportunity to cross-examine, uh,
13 Dr. Gordon last week at a -- at a hearing in this

;
i
14 courtroom. Uh, and the Court has reviewed its
15 notes on that cross-examination as well.
16 I've had an opportunity to read, uh,
17 briefs submitted by both parties. I read a
18 number of cases. Uh, Wisconsin has yet to have a
19 published case -- or I should say a reported
20 case -- on whether or not false confessions or
21 suggestibility in the context of false
22 confessions are admissible in in court at
23 trial.
24 Um, defense has provided me with some
25 information. I found some, as well, myself on
7
1 cases in other jurisdictions. State has provided
2 information on cases in which this kind of
3 testimony was not permitted. Uh, I think there's
4 a -- a an article at 82 ALR 5th, concerning
5 expert testimony on the reliability of -- of, uh,
6 confessions. I've had a chance to review that.
7 Uh, based on my review, based on, uh, my
8 opportunity to take a look at, uh, uh, the
9 testimony of Dr. Gordon, uh, this is what my
10 ruling is:
11 On February 27, 2006 and March 1, 2006,
12 Brendan Dassey was interviewed by police
13 authorities concerning the disappearance and
14 murder of Teresa Halbach. The statements he made
15 during those interviews were the subject of the
16 suppression hearing for -- before this Court on
17 May 4, 2006.
18 On May of 12, 2006, the Court announced
19 that, based on the totality of the circumstances,
20 it found Mr. Dassey's statements to be voluntary
21 and, thus, admissible in the trial of this
22 matter.
23 Subsequent to this -- to that ruling,
24 Mr. Dassey apparently gave an additional
25 statement to the police. I say, "appareJ?tly,"
8
1 because I have not yet seen, read or ruled on the
2 admissibility of that statement.
3 On June 30, 2006, uh, the Court received
4 an undated letter, purportedly from Mr. Dassey,
5 retracting any admissions he made in his prior
6 statements, which conceded his involvement in the
7 crimes with which he had been charged.
8 The defendant has retained, as an expert
9 witness, a clinical psychologist, Dr. Robert
10 Gordon, who is prepared to offer -- offer
11 testimony on the defendant's behalf on the
12 subject of suggestibility or, more appropriately,
13 witness suggestibility as it relates to false
14 confessions.
15 To that end, his counsel have brought a
16 motion seeking to permit Dr. Gordon to testify at
17 trial. As an offer of proof, Mr. Dassey's
18 counsel have submitted DVDs, to the Court and the
19 special prosecutor, of Dr. Gordon testifying on
20 direct examination and discussing his
21 credentials, his interviews of Brendan Dassey and
22 the battery of tests given to him and the
23 scientific basis for the theory of suggestibility
24 about which he wishes to testify.
25 Additionally, the defense has submitted
9
1 a five-page written report by Dr. Gordon of his
2 findings. At a hearing on March 26, 2007, the
3 special prosecutor had an opportunity to
4 cross-examine Dr. Gordon.
5 Since then, the parties have each
6 submitted briefs on their respective positions.
7 Under Wisconsin law, expert testimony is
8 generally admissible if it is relevant, the
9 testimony will assist the trier of fact, in this
10 case the jury, the expert witness is qualified to
11 provide the scientific, technical or other
12 specialized knowledge, and the expert's testimony
13 is not superfluous or a waste of time. State v.
14 Walstad, 119 Wis. 2d 483 at 515 and 516.
15 Even if the proposed testimony could not
16 cross the evidentiary threshold of Walstad in the
17 Wisconsin Rules of Evidence, it may qualify as
18 admissible if the Court find its -- if the Court
19 finds its exclusion would impermissibly infringe
20 on the defendant's right to present a defense. A
21 right guaranteed under the Sixth Amendment of the
22 United States Constitution and Article 1 Section
23 7 of the Wisconsin Constitution. State v.
24 St. George, 252 Wis. 2d 499.
25 To be admitted under what I'll call the
10
1 Doctrine of Constitutional Necessity, the
2 defendant must show the testimony met the
3 statutory standard governing expert testimony.
4 Uh, and this is from Section 9-0-7-0-2 of the
5 Wisconsin Statutes.
6 The testimony is clearly relevant to a
7 material issue in the case.
8 The testimony is necessary to the
9 defendant's case.
10 Its probative value outweighs any
11 prejudicial effect.
12 If these four factors are satisfied, the
······.~
13 evidence can be admitted so long as the
14 defendant's right to present the evidence is not
15 outweighed by a compelling state interest.
16 Let me apply what I believe to be the
17 appropriate test.
18 First, is the prop -- is the proposed
19 witness possessed of specialized knowledge, skill
20 or expertise?
21 Uh, Robert Gordon has a Ph.D. in
22 clinical psychology from Washington University,
23 St. Louis. He has been licensed as a clinical
24 psychologist in Wisconsin since 1977, and, I
25 believe, in Illinois since 1980 or '82.
11
1 His Curriculum Vitae lists ten
2 publications in which he has an authorship
3 interest. He has lectured or spoken on a large
4 number of occasions on psychology or psychology
5 and the law-related subjects.
6 Currently, the majority of his practice
7 is as a consulting and forentincs -- forensic
8 psychologist.
9 He says he has testified in 750 to a
10 thousand legal cases, but admits to recalling
11 only one case in which he gave in-court testimony
12 on witness suggestibility in making a confession.
13 In his clinical and forensic practice,
14 Dr. Gordon has made extensive use of the battery
15 of tests which he administered to the defendant;
16 The Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test, the MMPI, I
17 think, uh, Edition 2, the 16 PF, and the
18 straight -- or the State-Trait Anger Expression
19 Inventory, among the tests.
20 He also gave the defendant tests known
21 as the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scales, which
22 are designed to evaluate a subject's propensity
23 to yield or shift answers when confronted with
24 negative feedback or interpersonal pressure.
25 From the results of these types of
12
1 intelligence tests, these types of personality
2 trait tests, and the Gudjonsson Suggestibility
3 Scales, as well as interviews with a test
4 subject, a trained examiner can opine on how
5 susceptible a subject would be to suggestible in
6 a police interview.
7 Based on his education, his clinical
8 evaluative and forensic experience, this Court
9 believes Dr. Gordon, a clinical psychologist, has
10 sufficient expertise to of fer opinions on how
11 suggestible Brendan Dassey would be when
12 subjected to a police interrogation.
13 The Court understands Dr. Gordon has
14 limited experience in providing this testimony at
15 trial. That fact goes to the weight the jury
16 affords the testimony, not its admissibility.
17 Secondly, is the testimony relevant?
18 Section 9-0-4-0-1 of the Wisconsin
19 Statutes divines defines relevant evidence as
20 evidence having any tendency to make the
21 existence of any fact that is of consequence to
22 the determination of the action more probable or
23 less probable than it would be without the
24 evidence.
25 As an expert in clinical psychology,
13
1 Dr. Gordon is qualified to interpret the test
2 scores, assess the personality traits of the
3 defendant as real -- uh, as revealed in his
4 interviews, and offer an opinion as to how the
5 defendant would react in a police interview.
6 The issue is the defendant's statement
7 to the police or statements to the police.
8 Dr. Gordon's testimony will, presumably, give a
9 profile of the defendant who, because of his age,
10 lower cognitive functioning and personality
11 traits, presents as a person more likely to be
12 suggestible during police questioning.
13 I believe that this proposed testimony
14 is directly relevant to the material issue of the
15 statements given to the police in this case.
16 Third, will the testimony assist the
17 trier of fact?
18 Dr. Gordon's testimony would be helpful
19 to the jury by showing that an individual with a
20 certain psychological profile may be more
21 susceptible than other members of the population
22 in making a false confession.
23 Will also allow the jury to see that
24 false confessions can occur, and the testimony
25 will aid them in deciding whether the facts of
14
1 this case fall wholly or partially within the
2 category of a false confession.
3 Ultimately, this Court believes that
4 Dr. Gordon's testimony could assist the jury in
5 evaluating the evidence.
6 Fourth, is the testimony superfluous or
7 a waste of time?
8 Court believes that the testimony to be
9 neither superfluous nor a waste of time. In
10 fact, the testimony goes to the heart of the
11 theory of the defense. That is, that the
12 defendant gave, in whole or material part, a
·;
13 false confession because he was vulnerable to
i
14 police suggestion because of his age, limited
15 cognitive functioning and certain personality
16 traits.
17 In short, uh, the Court finds that the
18 testimony of Dr. Robert Gordon meets the
19 applicable Wisconsin standards set forth in
20 Wa1stad. Specifically, that he qualified as an
21 expert who possesses specialized knowledge that
22 is relevant because it will assist the trier of
23 fact to understand the evidence and determine a
24 fact in issue. Accordingly, his testimony is
25 admissible.
15
1 Because I do find the testimony
2 admissible under the relevancy test, I need not
3 consider whether the constitutional right to
4 pres -- prevent -- or present a defense here is
5 implicated.
6 One further word. Dr. Gordon will not
7 and cannot off er an opinion on whether the
8 defendant's statement or statements or any part
9 of them are true or false. That is the sole
10 province of the jury. It, alone, will make that
11 determination.
12 Also, as he noted in his direct
13 examination testimony, Dr. Gordon is not a social
14 scientist, and, therefore, is not an expert on
15 police interrogation techniques or coercive
16 questioning. On those matters he cannot offer
17 expert opinions. Therefore, he will not be
18 permitted to offer any expert opinions on whether
19 or not he believes the questioning of the
20 defendant was coercive.
21 The Court notes, as it did at the
22 beginning of this decision, that on May 12, 2006,
23 it decided that the defendant's statements given
24 to police on February 27, 2006 and March 1, 2006,
25 were as measured by the totality of the
16
1 circumstances, voluntary admissions.
2 Involuntary admissions are, by
3 definition, the product of, quote, coercive or
4 improper police conduct, end quote. This is
5 State vs. Hoppe, 261 Wis. 2d 294 at page 309.
6 Since the Court has already made the
7 finding of voluntariness, Dr. Gordon is not
8 allowed to refer to statements made by the
9 defendant as coerced.
10 Lastly, as part of this order,
11 Dr. Gordon, or his counsel, shall turn over to
12 the special prosecutor as soon as practicable,
13 and in no event later than April 10, 2007, all
14 materials he relied on, including, but not
15 limited to, test scores, notes, statements of the
16 defendant and anything else in formulating his
17 opinion.
18 All right. That's, uh, my ruling on the
19 admissibility of Dr. Gordon's testimony.
20 Mr. Fremgen, I ask that you draft an order
21 embracing that.
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: If I can get a copy of
23 the transcript as well, that might assist me in
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: In regards to the
17
1 discovery, or the, uh, research and test results,
2 could we ask that the Court, uh, place some sort of
3 a condition on that? Since it is -- one item in
4 particular, the MMPI results, are proprietary,
5 that -- and I'm not -- I'm assuming the State's not
6 going to share this with the world, but if,
7 basically, uh, State agrees that whatever research
8 results in information they receive, that's
9 proprietary in nature be, uh, not shared with any
10 other parties?
11 THE COURT: You're asking for a protective
12 order --
·.. :,\ 13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Correct.
14 THE COURT: -- doing that? Any objection?
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Other than an expert.
16 If they have experts, they can share with that.
17 THE COURT: Yeah. Yeah. That's
18 understood.
19 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Yeah. I probably wouldn't
20 be sharing with anybody anyway other than for court
21 purposes, Judge. The MMPI is in the public domain.
22 I don't believe that's proprietary. But,
23 nonetheless, for purposes of this trial, as long as
24 we get to use it at trial, and we get to show it to
25 our experts, um, that -- that's fine.
18
1 THE COURT: All right. Uh, let's move on
2 to the -- the motions that we have to be heard
3 today. Uh, the -- the first is a set of motions
4 that was filed by the defense. It's my
5 understanding that some of these may already have
6 been stipulated to between the parties, or that
7 there is -- certainly that there's no disagreement
8 about them.
9 I'm turning here to what is called the
10 second motion in limine, pretrial procedure
11 motions.
12 Um, the first motion there is a
13 sequestration motion, which is standard in any of

;
14 these cases. I suspect there's no objection to
15 that. Is that correct, Mr. Kratz?
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's right, Judge.
17 THE COURT: The second is a -- a motion
18 prohibiting the introduction of evidence on, uh,
19 prior crimes or wrongdoings. So-called other acts
20 evidence of this defendant.
21 Uh, Mr. Kratz, is -- is that the -- the
22 subject of any contention at this point?
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ: It is not, Judge. Should
24 we seek to introduce any, uh, other acts evidence or
25 evidence under 9-0-4-0-4 (2), we will seek advance
19
1 ruling of the Court prior to, uh, engaging in that
2 kind of question.
3 THE COURT: All right. Uh, the third
4 motion talks about the individual voir dire of, uh,
5 prospective jury members. Uh, counsel and I will be
6 taking that, among other jury issues, up later --
7 later today. I've already told counsel it is my
8 present intention not to, uh, conduct a voir dire
9 that consists entirely of individual voir dire but,
10 rather, to do a -- a more standard voir dire with,
11 uh, occasional individual voir dire, depending upon
12 the, uh, responses of prospective jurors.
13 Uh, the next one is, uh, a request that
14 the court reporter take -- be requested to take
15 notes of the voir dire examination, opening
16 statements and all bench conferences. Uh, that
17 is pretty much standard practice with the
18 exception of the bench conference, um, request
19 here. And that is just simply a matter of the
20 the geography of this courtroom and this bench.
21 Um, you want to be heard on that?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: What I would simply ask
23 for is that at breaks we could go on the record and
24 somehow memorialize what may have gone on in a bench
25 conference.
20
r 1 THE COURT: That's fine. You have no
2 objection to that?
4 THE COURT: The next requested order is an
5 order limiting the State 1 s use of photographs of the
6 deceased when alive, uh, on grounds of relevancy.
7 Uh, gentlemen, have you discussed that?
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: We have. And I think
9 we've reached an agreement, Judge, as to all
10 photographs to be used, uh, in this case. I don't
11 want speak for Mr. Fremgen, but if that's not the
12 case, I think that he needs to alert the Court of
13 that. Otherwise, what we've shared with
14 Mr. Fremgen, I believe, he does not have an
15 objection to.
16 THE COURT: Is that correct?
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I've received, uh, two
18 CDs of photographs and we have no objection to
19 what's within those two CDs.
20 THE COURT: All right. Uh, motion 7 and 8
21 go to the defendant's clothing during the course of
22 the trial and the non-use of -- of shackles. Uh,
23 uh, motion 8 requests the street clothing, and the
24 Court has already said it 1 s going to grant that. In
25 fact, I think I granted it a long time ago. And
21
1 during the, uh -- during the course of the trial
2 when the defendant is in the observation of the
3 jury, he will not be shackled.
4 The last motion in that set of motions,
5 uh, request that the prosecutor re -- refrain
6 from stating his personal opinion of the
7 witnesses' credibility, the defendant's guilt or
8 innocence, the justness. And -- and it goes on
9 to quote a portion of the, uh, State Bar Code
10 of -- it's called the Lawyers Rules of
11 Professional Responsibility these days, uh,
12 20:3.4. Uh, preswnably, Mr. Kratz, you're going
13 to live within that rule?
14 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Myself and, uh,
15 co-counsel, Judge, uh, although when -- we will
16 surely be commenting on the evidence. I'm sure we
17 will not state a personal belief.
18 THE COURT: All right. That's the -- those
19 are the initial set of motions that we are
20 considering.
21 The second motion is a motion submitted
22 by the State, uh, indicating the State's, uh --
23 the --
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I'm sorry. If
25 you go
22
1 THE COURT: I -- Did I miss one?
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: You skipped one.
3 Number -- On your sheet it's number seven. Oh, that
4 was addressed?
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: He addressed them
6 together.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Oh, I'm sorry.
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: We reached an
9 agreement.
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. That's fine. I
11 think that may have been the one you mentioned you
12 were following Judge Willis' previous ruling or --
,j
13 on the display of memorials, etc.
14 THE COURT: Right.
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay.
16 THE COURT: Right. Right. Yeah, and --
17 and I had talked about -- you're right, I didn't
18 talk about that specifically here today, but we
19 had talked about that previously.
20 Uh, the State's motion in limine
21 relating to the admissibility of DNA evidence.
22 Is there an agreement on that?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, the defense is
24 not objecting to the State's use of -- we're not
25 going to, uh, contest the foundation. Um,
23
1 essentially, I -- I -- my understanding the State's
2 obviously going to still produce witnesses to
3 testify about the proc -- the process, the protocol,
4 the procedure, but we're not raising any objections
5 to those.
6 THE COURT: All right. I take it that's
7 satisfactory, Mr. Kratz?
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: If I could just have one
9 moment, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: We just wanted to make
12 sure, Judge, that the defense is not challenging the
.. ~ 13 admissibility of the evidence since this is an
14 admissibility issue. If, in fact
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Nope.
16 ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- that is, uh --
17 THE COURT: My understanding is,
18 Mr. Fremgen, that you are not challenging the
19 admissibility of it.
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, Judge.
21 THE COURT: No means we are not challenging
22 it?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We're not -- we're not
24 challenging the admissibility of the DNA evidence.
25 THE COURT: All right. Next set of motions
24
1 are -- are called the State's Motion in Limine,
2 Series 1.
3 Uh, the first of them is a motion to
4 preclude third party liability evidence. Um,
5 gentlemen, have you discussed this motion? And
6 this motion relates to, uh, if the defense
7 intends to introduce evidence that other uh,
8 that someone other than Steven A. Avery
9 participated in these offenses, uh, the uh,
10 which Mr. Dassey is now charged, the State
11 requests an offer of proof. Uh, is the defense
12 intending to produce any such evidence?

;
14 THE COURT: The next is the motion to
15 exclude evidence that the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
16 Department or any other law enforcement agency
17 planted evidence to frame Steven Avery. The -- the
18 motion goes on to spell out with some specificity
19 what particular evidence the maker of the motion
20 refers to.
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I'm sorry.
22 I -- I I believe I spoke to Attorney Fallon
23 yesterday in regards to this motion. Uh, our
24 intent is not to raise questions as to whether
25 evidence was planted. Obviously, we would
25
1 reserve any right to cross-examine officers and
2 that cross-examination may be -- we're not going
3 to cross-examine on planting, but we're not going
4 to simply -- we put it bluntly, I guess we can be
5 vigorous or our cross-examination, though we're
6 not going to raise the issue of planting. Is
7 that fair?
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Um, I guess I need a
9 little -- Uh, no.
10 THE COURT: Yeah, it's fair, but it doesn't
11 really say much other than you're going to be
12 vigorous on your cross-examination. And I assume
13 you will be.
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well, our intent is
15 not -- that's not our defense. Our defense is not
16 that evidence was planted. I don't want this
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: Does that -- does
18 that --
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- to be an issue.
20 What's that?
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: I was going to say,
22 when you say it's not going to be planted,
23 there's no evidence that it planted to frame
24 your client or dealing with a -- frame-up
25 evidence that was alleged in the Avery case?
26
1 Just so we are --
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well, I
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- clear on it --
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We are
5 ATTORNEY FALLON: that there's no --
6 THE COURT: One at a time here.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'm sorry. We're not
8 raising any frame-up theory of defense for either.
9 I just -- I -- I don't want the motion to make it
10 sound as if we're simply going to let the witnesses
11 speak to whatever they want to speak to without
12 having some sort of cross-examination, though. So,
13 as long as you're aware that we're going to still
14 ask questions.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: About --
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Not about planting.
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: And not about framing.
19 THE COURT: All right. It's understood
20 that there'll be no questions about planting of
21 evidence of State's witness or framing anyone; is
22 that correct?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's correct.
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay.
25 THE COURT: The third of the State's set of
27
1 motions is a motion to preclude evidence of police
2 or investigative bias against Steven Avery. And
3 that motion goes on to name some persons who I
4 suspect were witnesses in the previous trial. Uh,
5 Mr. Fremgen?
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We have no objection
7 with that.
8 THE COURT: All right. So any evidence or
9 any attempt to introduce evidence that there was a
10 police or investigative bias against Steven Avery
11 will not be permitted.
12 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Against Steven Avery,
13 correct.
14 THE COURT: Correct. The last, and this
15 set of motions, is a motion to preclude evidence of
16 any lawsuit filed by Steven Avery against Manitowoc
17 County.
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We don't believe that's
19 relevant in our case. We're not going to bring it
20 up.
21 THE COURT: Nor do I, as a matter of fact.
22 The next motion is a motion to allow, as testimony,
23 admission of a party opponent and, specifically,
24 what's sought to be admitted here, and this is the
25 defense motion, is remarks allegedly made, or a
28
1 remark allegedly made, in the rebuttal portion of
2 closing argument of Steven Avery's trial by Special
3 Prosecutor Kratz, in which he said, quote,
4 everything in this case pointed to one person,
5 towards one defendant, dot, dot, dot, follow the
6 Court's instruction and follow the evidence in this
7 case and return verdicts of guilty. End quote.
8 The motion goes on to set forth a basis
9 for its admission, although, I think,
10 Mr. Fremgen, you're citing here 9-0-8-0-1 (3). I
11 think you really mean 9-0-8-0-1 (4b1), uh, as
12 the -- the, uh, party opponent, uh, exception to
13 the hearsay rule.

'
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'm -- I'm, uh --
15 THE COURT: Looking at page two, number
16 five.
18 THE COURT: And you also cite a number of
19 cases. Three federal cases. I think United States
20 v. MclCeon is the first of them. United States v.
21 Sa1erno and, then, United States v. DeLoach. I'm
22 not going to give the citations at this, uh -- at
23 this point. They're all found in the -- or the
24 reporter citations. They're all found in your --
25 your argument.
29
1 And you also cite a Wisconsin case which
2 essentially adopts the holding in those three
3 cases, and that Wisconsin case is called State
4 Cardenas-Hernandez State v. excuse me -- of
5 Cardenas-Hernandez at 219 Wis. 2d, uh,
6 specifically at page -- well, it's at 531, but,
7 specifically, at page 532. You want to be heard
8 on this, Mr. Fremgen?
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I guess I would
10 just rely upon the arguments in the -- the motion.
11 I don't have, yet, a transcript. I asked for one.
12 I understand it's taking some time for the court
'
13 reporter .. There's -- she has requests from a number
14 of transcripts from that trial. Um, I have nothing
15 else to add.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz, do you wish to be
17 heard?
18 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I do, Judge. Um, as the
19 Court, uh, knows from its reading of the
20 Cardenas-Hernandez case, use of prior statements of
21 attorneys, uh, which include, uh, prosecutors, uh,
22 is, um, dicey, to use a -- a non-legal term. It's
23 admitted very rarely. In fact, was not, in the, uh,
24 Car -- uh, Cardenas-Hernandez case.
25 The reasons for that that appear to be
30
1 obvious, first of all, the dangers, uh, that an
2 attorney will become a witness are very real. I
3 don't know if Mr., uh, Fremgen is inviting me to
4 testify in this case, since he is asking that
5 this be allowed as testimony. I see many dangers
6 in, uh, that particular, um, procedure.
7 But, uh, it is usually not relevant as
8 using an argument from one proceeding, uh, most
9 necessarily, will lead a jury to draw an unfair
10 inference -- inference, especially, in this case,
11 when considering that, um, Mr. Avery was a
12 different case than Mr. Dassey's case. Uh,
.. ····~ 13 different evidence was allowed. Um,

\
14 specifically, no, um, confession or admission of
15 Mr. Dassey, uh, was allowed, and the jury wasn't
16 asked to consider, uh, whether Mr. Dassey was
17 guilty, uh, or not guilty.
18 And so, uh, the final, uh, subject that
19 this Court should consider is whether there is an
20 explanation for the inconsistency, or perceived
21 inconsistently, and and there surely, uh, is
22 when the State invited the jury in the Avery
23 case, uh, to reject the planting theory as the
24 evidence pointed to one individual, uh, that was
25 because that was the Avery case. That the
31
1 evidence in that case, uh, pointed to Mr. Avery.
2 We fully intend to present evidence that
3 points to Mr. Dassey, uh, in this prosecution
4 since this is a separate prosecution. Frankly,
5 if they were the same case, they would have been
6 joined for trial. Because they are not, and
7 because evidence, in fact, legally, in one case,
8 could not be admitted in the other case, uh,
9 that, uh, should provide the Court all the
10 explanation, uh, it needs.
11 For all of those reasons, Judge, uh, I
12 would ask the Court adopt the, uh, generally
13 held, urn, provision that these kinds of arguments
14 are not to be considered testimony in a
15 subsequent, especially a different case, and deny
16 the request for, uh, admission of this argument.
17 That's all. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Frerngen, any
19 response?
21 THE COURT: Uh, the Court has considered
22 the materials submitted by Mr. Frerngen. I've also,
23 uh, read the -- the federal cases, the three of
24 them, urn, I think it's, uh, Mc.Keon, Sa1ez:no and
25 DeLoach.
32
1 I -- I'm note -- I'll quote here just
2 from Sa1erno, which -- which picks up what was
3 originally decided in United States v. McKean.
4 Uh, it says that, uh, the court must be satisfied
5 that a prior argument involves an assertion of
6 fact inconsistent with similar assertions in a
7 subsequent trial.
8 Uh, second, the court must determine
9 that the statements of counsel were such as to be
10 the equivalent of testimonial statements made by
11 the client. And I'm quoting here from U.S. v.
12 Sa1erno at, uh, 937 F. 2d, uh, 797.
13 Specifically, from page 811. Uh, the -- the
14 holding of that -- there's a -- there's a third
15 part -- third prong, to that test as well. Uh,
16 the holding of that has been -- been picked up
17 by, uh -- as I noted before -- by State v.
18 Cardenas, uh, State, uh -- State v.
19 Cardenas-Hernandez. Here we have a statement,
20 everything in this case pointed to one person
21 towards one defendant. Follow the court's
22 instruction and follow the evidence in this case
23 and return verdicts of guilty.
24 Well, it's true. The case did point
25 to -- to one person. That was the only person
33
1 being tried at the case. Uh, the evidence
2 pointed that person because the -- the admissions
3 that are the -- part of the subject of this case
4 were were not used as part of that case.
5 At best -- at very best, this is -- this
6 is an equivocal remark by the special prosecutor.
7 I haven't seen the context. Even if I did see
8 the context, I doubt that my mind would -- would
9 change. I think it was entirely permissible.
10 I don't think it becomes, under the
11 the test spelled out in these federal cases, in
12 State v. Cardenas-Hernandez, uh, an admission by
13 a party opponent. Not by a long shot.
14 Uh, excuse me. Therefore, I'm going to
15 respectfully deny your motion, Mr. Fremgen.
16 The next sets of motions are the State's
17 Motions in Limine, Series 2, and they fall into
18 two general categories.
19 The first of them I will characterize,
20 simply, um, by the the title, Statements of
21 Brendan Dassey, and they amount to, uh, some
22 statements allegedly given to -- to investigative
23 agents, uh, in November of 2005. Uh, apparently
24 a -- a statement allegedly made to, uh, Cassie
25 Fiala. Uh, then, statements made to Detective
34
1 Wiegert and Special Agent Fassbender.
2 I think all of those have basically been
3 admitted. Uh, those are statements on -- made
4 February 27 and March 1. And then there are a
5 series of telephone -- recorded telephone calls
6 from the defendant to, uh, his mother, from the
7 defendant to his mother and another, then there's
8 also the May of 13, 2006 statement to Special
9 Agent Fassbender and Detective Wiegert at the
10 Sheboygan County Sheriff's Department.
11 And, lastly, uh -- well, I shouldn't say
12 lastly. Uh, second lastly, is a letter from the
13 defendant to me, the Court.
14 And, lastly, is other recorded
15 statements made by Brendan Dassey to, uh, his
16 mother, Barb Janda.
17 Generally speaking, with respect to the
18 phone conferences made by the defendant, um,
19 while he was incarcerated, uh, it's my
20 understanding that under -- under -- under, 968,
21 uh, 31, (2b) and 968.28 (2b), uh, that as long as
22 there's one party consent, and as long as the
23 party who consented is available to authenticate,
24 or someone else is available to authenticate,
25 the -- the phone calls, that they are -- uh, they
35
1 are going to be admitted.
2 Uh, the defendant will -- and this is
3 assuming that the the appropriate, uh, uh,
4 language is found at the beginning of the phone
5 call advising the defendant that these are going
6 to be recorded and that, uh -- that that
7 recordation, uh, is going to occur. That has
8 been deemed in -- in case law to be an implied
9 consent.
10 Now, any admission is -- is, of course,
11 subject to relevancy considerations but, to -- to
12 sort of speed this up, uh, Mr. Fremgen, is that
13 your understanding of the law?
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Edelstein's
15 going to argue that motion.
16 THE COURT: Attorney Edelstein.
17 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, despite,
18 uh, not necessarily agreeing with the ruling that,
19 uh, indicates that it's an implied consent, because,
20 obviously, our client was not in a position to make
21 a choice, there were no other options available, urn,
22 I think that is a correct statement of the law under
23 ti1~.
24 So, to the extent the Court is
25 addressing the telephone calls, um, from the
36
1 defendant, um, based upon that ruling, uh,
2 understanding the admissibility, we would only
3 ask the Court require the State to provide to us,
4 with some specificity, those particular calls
5 they intend to use and making specific reference
6 to the tracks on the CDs that we've been
7 supplied.
8 We have a multitude of CDs. A lot of
9 phone calls. And while the CDs indicate a date
10 range, there was no way to reference them
11 individually, um, simply by looking at that. And
12 it's purely speculation on our part. I think
13 we're certainly entitled to more specific notice.
14 I think the State has that capability, obviously,
15 um, and we would ask the Court require that as a
16 condition of that portion of their motion that
17 the Court has ruled on relative to the phone
18 calls.
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, I ' l l be
21 handling this, uh, motion
22 THE COURT: Oh.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- for the State.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Thank you. Um, first
37
1 and foremost, I think the -- the Ri1ey case is
2 dispositive, and absent other relevant
3 evidentiary objections, I think the calls are
4 admissible.
5 Urn, secondly, with respect to, uh,
6 adequate notice, with all deference to Counsel, I
7 must disagree. It seems to me that is exactly
8 why we're here today. That is the point of the
9 notice of intent and motion to possibly admit
10 these statements.
11 I can't tell you right now whether, uh,
12 all of these statements will be utilized by the
13 State's -- in its case in chief. Urn, however,
14 the point of the motion hearing today was to
15 determine whether or not any there was any
16 contest or other legal bases to deny
17 consideration of those.
18 Most notably, the voluntariness that --
19 of any of these statements, or the Miranda, or,
20 uh, as we've just discussed, viz-a-viz the
21 telephone calls, whether there's adequate, uh,
22 notice, uh, to, uh, come with under -- come
23 within the umbrella of implied consent. And I
24 think we've met that. Um, we've specifically
25 indicated the day the call and to whom the call,
38
1 uh, or who the participants in the call was. I
2 don't think we need more, uh, for adequate
3 notice.
4 And, third, um, a lot of what could be
5 used in this case depends in large part what
6 evidence the defense will introduce in their case
7 in chief. Many of -- of our calls here, um, are
8 being, urn, we're seeking an advance ruling, may
9 very well be rebuttal or reply evidence, to which
10 we really technically don't have to give notice
11 yet as of this time, but we sought to put it all
12 in there just to deal with it now rather than
13 having to deal with it in mid-trial or before the
14 case start -- before the State starts its
15 rebuttal case.
16 But I think the fact that we've given
17 him notice of the date, uh, and the participants
18 of the call and a -- and a copy of the call is --
19 is more than, uh, sufficient notice.
20 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, if I
21 might respond very briefly.
22 THE COURT: GO ahead.
23 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: In the motion,
24 letter N makes reference to any other recorded
25 statements. Now, I will concede that to the best
39
1 of our knowledge the State has provided us any
2 telephone calls made by our client to his mother,
3 Barb Janda. But, again, that is so wide open and
4 there are so many that it's virtually impossible
5 to know with any specificity what that relates
6 to.
7 Additionally, as to J, the May 13
8 telephone call, the Court has, to my
9 understanding, not specifically ruled as to what
10 we'll call the May 13 statement to the police.
11 The telephone call, which is the subject
12 of J is intricately tied to that and there's a
13 significant issue as to the, um, I think
14 admissibility based upon a voluntary issue given
15 the nature of the exchange between the defendant
16 and the police officers, uh, toward the end of
17 that particular interview.
18 It was -- and -- precisely, what I'm
19 referencing, Your Honor, is the police officers
20 made it quite clear that he had to call his
21 mother, and he had to call his mother that day
22 once they were done with that interview. They
23 made it quite clear that they were going to talk
24 to her if he did not. He needed to do it before
25 they did. They're clearly in a position where
40
1 they understand that any phone calls he makes are
2 going to be recorded.
3 So, in effect, they're posturing
4 themselves to create, uh, what they hope and
5 arguably might be based upon the State's desire
6 to use that particular phone call, an
7 incriminatory statement. So that one, I think,
8 has to be dealt with quite separately, perhaps,
9 from some of the others.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon?
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, I have several
12 thoughts on that. Uh, the letters I and J in the
··~
13 motion on page two, whether you deal with them
14 individually or jointly, the question still comes
15 down to this:
16 Is there an objection, and that's the
17 point of the motion, as to the voluntariness of
18 tho -- of that statement. And if Counsel wants
19 to tie J to I, then fine, we'll do that. Let's
20 take up I. The question is this:
21 Was Mr. Dassey adequately Mirandized.
22 Question number one.
23 Question number two, was, uh, the
24 balance of the statement, and in the totality of
25 the circumstances, was the statement voluntarily
41
1 obtained?
2 Those are the questions.
3 Third, if you want to tie the subsequent
4 telephone call, let us not lose sight of the fact
5 that whether the officers suggested, told,
6 demanded or asked Mr. Dassey to talk this matter
7 over with his mother, does it really matter?
8 The fact is, Mr. Dassey chose to make
9 the call and, like anyone else, chose to seek
10 counsel from his mother.
11 What makes that statement presumably
12 involuntary is beyond me. It's a choice to make.
13 A discussion was held. The parties are aware the
14 matter is being recorded. Those are the
15 preliminary issues that we must deal with to
16 determine the admissibility.
17 If the defense wants to make use of
18 those statements in some other capacity,
19 viz-a-viz this whole false confession scenario,
20 then that is, of course, their choice to do in
21 their case in chief either with or without
22 assistance of Dr. Gordon.
23 So, again, the question for today is is
24 there a challenge to the voluntariness to the
25 Miranda of the statement, uh, referred to in
42
1 letter I? And, if not, then I don't see how what
2 occurred in the subsequent telephone call, uh,
3 several hours later, or an hour later, I -- my
4 escapes me as to how much time passed -- I don't
5 see how that makes that statement inadmissible.
6 THE COURT: Well, here, Mr. Edelstein,
7 are -- are you objecting on voluntariness grounds to
8 I and J? And, if so, are you requesting that the
9 Court, uh, view whatever I -- I assume I is a -- is
10 a DVD or is on DVD -- and listen to J?
11 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: We are not objecting
12 to I on the basis of voluntariness. That particular
13 statement, however, I believe is still subject to
14 the defense motion, which this Court has yet to rule
15 upon based upon ineffective assistance.
16 That's a little different than the
17 February 27 and the March 1 statements where
18 prior counsel had conducted a hearing and we
19 attempted to re-litigate that issue and the Court
20 found that that was a, um, post-judgment issue.
21 So that's the only basis of an objection as to
22 the May 13 statement by the defendant.
23 I think the issue on J, while it is not
24 a statement to a police officer, it was promoted,
25 encouraged and almost insisted that he make that
43
1 phone call. These are police officers. This is
2 a very vulnerable individual. That is tantamount
3 to the creation, the coercive creation, of
4 evidence. It 1 s different than when you start.
5 He may have made a voluntary statement, but
6 that's a totally different issue. That is the
7 creation by experienced police officers of what
8 they know and reasonably believe to be admissible
9 against him.
10 When a -- an individual like that, in
11 that circumstance, is encouraged to make that
12 type of call, the officers knowing full well that
13 this is a -- something that may be used against

)
14 him, I think that that has to be looked at
15 separately from that portion -- from the rest of
16 the statement itself. Uh, taking the position
17 that that, in and of itself, because of the
18 conduct, uh, was, in fact, the creation of
19 involuntarily produced evidence.
20 And I think the Court, from a review of
21 that particular portion of the, uh, DVD, would be
22 in a best position to determine whether or not
23 that's the case. If necessary, uh, one of the
24 officers could be called and examined to
25 determine, uh, what their purpose in doing that
44
1 was. There can be no other logical conclusion
2 other than it was their intent, knowing full well
3 that these are being recorded, to create that
4 type of evidence against the defendant.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes, two points. One,
7 with respect to, um, the law enforcement, uh,
8 interrogation on May 13, item I, the -- I take it,
9 then, that there's no objection to Miranda or
10 voluntariness. And if that's the case, then the
11 only matter of issue or consequence to the defense
12 appears to be the ineffective assistance of counsel
13 claim.
. '
14 Well, then, I have two comments to make
15 viz-a-viz that. First, it's not ripe at this
16 time and, quite frankly, it may never be ripe,
17 um, for a determination of, one, deficient
18 performance; and, two, prejudice. Because any
19 constitutional claim, there's no violation until
20 the statement is actually admitted. And, then,
21 you have to evaluate it in the general context of
22 all the other factors.
23 Um, so if the statement is never
24 admitted by a party, particularly the State, it's
25 not an issue. If the statement is utilized by
45
1 the defense, then they can't claim that issue.
2 Now, with respect to the, urn, telephone
3 call, it matters not. It is the matter -- The
4 only issue is, who initiated the call? And so
5 un -- under these circumstances, there's no
6 question as to the voluntariness of the call. It
7 was a choice of Mr. Dassey, the defendant, to
8 call and seek counsel of his mother. Whether he
9 was -- again, whether he was suggested, told to,
10 or whatever, time passed, he was alone, he had
11 time to think, he made a call. I don't see how
12 that's involuntary. I'll await the Court's
13 ruling.
14 THE COURT: Yeah. All right. Uh,
15 Mr. Edelstein, your -- your last shot here.
16 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Interrogations have
17 the ebb and flow. We've all seen that. There are
18 times when people assert their rights and police
19 officers say things to persuade them to come off of
20 that. That very last portion of this interrogation,
21 if you will, that really had nothing to do with any
22 questions to Brendan, other than, for example, when
23 will you call her, which is not intended to gather
24 any statement of him eliciting an inculpatory
25 response, but is, in fact, intended to create a
46
1 separate evidentiary item which these officers knew,
2 had to know, was going to be preserved, that they
3 could use against him later, seeking to have him
4 make inculpatory statements to a third person.
5 At that point, I think, the issue of
6 voluntariness does, again, become an issue.
7 Now, am I saying it required a separate
8 warning? No, I'm not. But if we evaluate this
9 on the totality of the circumstances, I believe
10 the Court is in the best position upon a review
11 of that portion. This wasn't just a simple
12 request. Brendan, you should talk to your mom
.
.·.)
.
13 about what we talked about here today. It was
14 very specific, um, and tantamount to coercion.
15 Therefore, it's not voluntary. I don't think
16 that that statement -- that phone call, uh,
17 should be admitted.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, then, maybe we need
19 to have a hearing and Mr.
20 THE COURT: I ask
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: Dassey will need to
22 take the stand.
23 THE COURT: Well, here's what we're going
24 to do. I -- I hear I'm hearing about what was
25 said and -- and how it was said, but I've never seen
47
1 it nor have I heard it. Uh, so I've got to take a
2 look at it. Uh, I'll reserve ruling on I and J.
3 What I would like to do, because we
4 don't have a whole lot of time here, is, uh, take
5 a look -- if I can get a copy of the DVD, as well
6 as this particular phone message, I'll listen to
7 them over the weekend and, uh, if time permits,
8 and I think it does for me on Monday, we can come
9 back and we can -- we can talk about this again.
10 I'll rule on it.
11 Uh, as to your argument about
12 ineffective assistance of counsel, uh, I -- I
.· ::· ·' 13 understand certainly the substance of the
14 argument, but, uh, the Court, uh, in ruling the
15 last time, it was raised in a slightly different
16 context, said that until the case is over, that
17 is not ripe for a decision or even discussion.
18 All right.
19 Uh, with respect to the rest of them,
20 the rest of the requests here, and maybe I'll
21 just -- I'll just go from -- from A to N, uh, any
22 objection, defense, to A?
23 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: No.
24 THE COURT: And those are statements, or
25 that is a statement that -- that -- uh, how about B?
48
2 THE COURT: C?
3 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, we do
4 object to that. We do not believe that it 1 s
5 relevant and it's highly prejudicial.
6 THE COURT: Well, subject to -- subject to
7 and -- and relevancy is always a consideration, but
8 subject to a relevancy objection, and, again, I
9 don't know what's on that tape, but subject to a
10 relevancy objection? This is -- if -- if it's a
11 statement by Brendan Dassey, it's probably a
12 9-0-8-0-1-4-b-l statement, depending upon what it
. ~ .... 13 says. You agree?
14 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I agree, Your Honor.
15 But, again, I think once that, um -- Perhaps that's
16 something we could have the Court rule on in advance
17 if the parties agree to allow the Court to review
18 that particular statement. It's our position that,
19 um, the prejudicial value heavily outweighs any
20 relevancy.
21 THE COURT: All right. I'll do that. Uh,
22 D? Do you have any objection to D? I think it's
23 already been admitted.
25 THE COURT: E? F? G?
49
1 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: No, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: H? It's a recorded phone
3 conversation of March 7 from the defendant to his
4 mother.
6 THE COURT: K? Statements in a recorded
7 phone call from the Sheboygan County Jail from the
8 defendant to his mother?
10 THE COURT: L? The May 18, 2006 statements
11 in a recorded telephone call of Brendan Dassey to
12 Barb Janda and Candy Avery, including, but not
13 limited, going over to the Steve Avery bonfire about
14 7:00 p.m. on October 31 and being in the garage and
15 cleaning up some reddish brown stuff on the garage
16 floor?
18 THE COURT: M? The June 30, 2006 letter
19 from the defendant to the Honorable Jerome Fox,
20 Circuit Court Judge, Manitowoc County Circuit Court?
21 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: No objection.
22 THE COURT: And, N, any other recorded
23 statements made by Brendan Dassey to his mother,
24 Barb Janda?
25 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, again
50
1 that's
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: Let me -- let me help you
3 out on that one. If -- if -- if -- we put that in
4 just in case we missed something, and, uh -- but it
5 would be within that category or context. And let
6 me just say this, if we do identify another
7 statement that was somehow overlooked, we'll provide
8 notice immediately and then we can briefly discuss
9 whether it's of issue or not.
11 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: That's fine, Your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: With that consideration? All
14 right. Now, the second part of the motion deals
15 with statements by Steven Avery and Barb Janda. Uh,
16 and the justification or the basis for the motion is
17 that the statements are in furtherance of the
18 conspiracy to cover up the crimes of first degree
19 murder and constitute attempts to intimidate a
20 witness under Section 940.43 (4), and which may
21 include an attempt to suborn perjury.
22 Uh, second, all of this behavior on
23 behalf of Steven Avery and Barb Janda constitute
24 other acts of both Janda and Avery which fully
25 explain the defendant's recantation and which
51
1 refute the defense of false confession.
2 Third, such statements are offered for
3 the subsequent effect of them on the listener,
4 Brendan Dassey.
5 Lastly, these statements constitute
6 information utilized and relied upon by the
7 expert witnesses in this case.
8 And we start off with, A, an October 31,
9 2005, 5:36 p.m. statement in a recorded cone --
10 phone call from Jodi Stachowski to Steven Avery.
11 I don't know how I can be ruling on
12 these at this time. Certainly -- oops.
13 Certainly not on that one. I have no idea what
14 it is. What relevancy it may or may not have.
15 Uh, the conspiracy theory? What? Is this,
16 again, we're at 9-0-8-0-4-1?
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: There are several
18 possible theories regarding the admissibility of
19 these statements and there's also determinate
20 there also is a conceivable ruling or understanding
21 of the evidence that it may not be admissible.
22 We're in a bit of a difficult spot
23 because we don't know -- we the Court has just
24 ruled now, for instance, as to the admissibility
25 of Dr. Gordon's opinion. And, as such, uh, what
52
1 effect any of this additional information may
2 have in any cross-examination of Dr. Gordon.
3 That's clearly one issue here. Because he's
4 going to be taking into consideration, if he's
5 making opinions regarding, uh, suggestibility,
6 although, I realize the Court has somewhat
7 circumscribed the scope of his opinion-giving
8 testimony.
9 Um, secondly, again, a lot may very well
10 depend on how the defense presents their case,
11 uh, as to whether this statement or several of
12 the succeeding statements are, in fact,
.· -.·~
13 admissible.
I
14 I just wanted to bring it to everybody's
15 attention that these statements are out there.
16 It may require further hearing down the road, or
17 we may forgo any attempt to introduce it at all.
18 We're kind of in a situation of trying to respond
19 and guess what -- what the defense -- the
20 the the actual focus of the defense will be on
21 this.
22 So it's there. Out there. I mean,
23 Counsel rightly anticipated this as an issue in
24 his motion. He filed his motion, I guess, an
25 hour or two before we, uh, filed ours. So, um,
53
1 it's clearly an issue that's subject for
2 discussion. But, you're right, I'm not sure we
3 can rule on all of this today.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen or Mr. Edelstein?
5 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, I guess
6 the -- I I would concur with, uh, Counsel's last
7 statement. That is, it is going to be difficult to
8 determine this with any precision today.
9 We have a general objection because,
10 first of all, uh, the assertion in their motion
11 that the statements, uh, were utilized and relied
12 upon our expert, um, I do not believe is correct.
13 But even further than that, we don't have any
14 type of, uh, conspiracy charged here. We have
15 statements from, um, an individual and
16 individuals who are not those of our client.
17 We have no idea what portion or all of
18 these statements the State deems to be relevant.
19 Uh, I think it is an issue that is probably left
20 open at this point. Uh, we do object to that.
21 Again, though, on the basis that we do not have
22 even a threshold, um, under the case law.
23 And in that regard, I direct the Court's
24 attention to, uh, State v. -- and I'll spell
25 it -- S-a-v-a-n-h, that's at, um,
54
1 287 Wis. 2d 876. The analysis under there is
2 such that I don't believe that the statements
3 from Steven Avery or phone calls from Steven
4 Avery, um, to Barb Janda or, for that matter,
5 anyone else would be admissible.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, let me offer this
7 observation, uh, and reply to the last comment.
8 Counsel is correct that as we referenced a number of
9 these phone conversations, I think it's fair to say
10 that of a 15-minute conversation that we've
11 identified, there may be a minute or two that is,
12 arguably, relevant, depending on the context in
13 which the State may choose to use it.
14 So, I -- I would concede with Counsel,
15 that's true and that's what makes this difficult
16 because we're not really sure where they're going
17 and how they're going to present their defense.
18 So it would require a a little more pinpoint
19 accuracy with respect to the particular
20 statements. So I'm prepared to accept that as a
21 proposition and that's one of the reasons why I
22 say I don't -- we're not seeking a ruling of
23 admissibility today. This is more in the context
24 of a notice that there may be an issue down the
25 road.
55
1 With respect to the conspirs
2 conspirator issue, let me offer, um, some insight
3 from Professor Blinka in his book. And this is
4 in Section 801.505, um, page 567, I think, in his
5 most recent, um, treatise.
6 It said, statements by coconspirators
7 relating to escape, coverups or intimidating
8 witnesses are not admissible under this rule
9 unless it can be shown that a coverup was part of
10 the original plan, or unless the evidence
11 demonstrates that a second conspiracy was formed
12 to conceal the misdeeds of the first.
13 So as -- as -- that may be a viable
14 theory for some of these statements, we're
15 certainly not offering that for all of the
16 statements. A -- again, um, there -- depending
17 upon the statement and.the manner in which we
18 choose to use it to respond to what we think has
19 been offered by the defense, will -- the -- the
20 theory of admissibility will change depending on
21 the statement and the context.
22 And -- and that's why I say it's not
23 I don't think it's ripe for a decision today
24 because we may choose to use none of them. We
25 may use just two of them. And I would
56
1 acknowledge to Counsel that we'd have to sharpen
2 the focus and -- and present, briefly, uh, to you
3 exactly what the statement is and what our theory
4 of admissibility is based on the context of the
5 evidence at the trial at the time.
6 And, again, this comes in in our
7 rebuttal case, not in our case in chief. So
8 there will be time to deal with it and address
9 it. We wanted to give the parties and the Court
10 fair notice that this is an issue that is looming
11 out there but may never need to be addressed.
12 THE COURT: All right. Uh, I had a chance
13 to -- to go through these, and these are -- are
14 alphabetized here has A through K, uh, various
15 statements made and phone conversations in which
16 Steven Avery was involved, and I -- I could, I
17 suppose, conceivably see that some of these might be
18 admissible under some theory, some, uh, you're going
19 to have to do a lot of talking and theorizing to
20 convince me that they -- they have any validity as
21 part of this trial.
22 But, whatever the case may be, I'm --
23 I'm going to withhold, uh, ruling. I'm in no
24 I haven't heard any of them. Uh, there's no
25 context here at this point in which to -- in
57
1 which to intelligently determine what it is these
2 statements -- first, what parts are going to be
3 used. Secondly, what it is they're going to be
4 used for. So I think at this point it would be
5 premature to to make a ruling on any of these
6 statements. And, uh, as I said, I'm withholding
7 it.
8 Just -- just for the reporter's record,
9 the -- the Ri1ey case, that Mr. Edelstein
10 referred to, was State v. Ri1ey at
11 287 Wis. 2d 244.
12 Now, is there anything else, uh, to come
13 before on motions?
14 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, there were two, uh,
15 issues that, uh, previous counsel had addressed.
16 One was a filing a notice of alibi, the other was
17 filing a notice of presentation of learned treatise.
18 I understand from, uh, preliminary discussions with
19 Mr. Fremgen, that the defense intends to withdraw
20 those. And that should be done on the record.
21 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fremgen, you
22 heard what Mr. Kratz said, did you not?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge. We, uh --
24 those were filed by previous counsel. We don't, uh,
25 intend to use learned treatise, and I believe prior
58
1 counsel intended to use that in lieu of an expert.
2 Um, I think we're beyond that point.
3 And, second, as to alibi, I wasn't
4 entirely sure as to the context of that motion,
5 but we would withdraw it in any regard.
6 Uh, and last, I would just note for the
7 record that I -- the defense will provide to the
8 State, some time after the hearing today, our
9 witness list as well.
10 THE COURT: All right. Now, I -- I said
11 that I wanted to, with respect to items, uh -- I
12 think they were J and K?
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Right.
14 THE COURT: That I wanted to set --
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: I and J.
16 THE COURT: I and J.
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: And we'll also get you a
18 copy of the uh, uh, report dealing with item C.
19 THE COURT: Okay. I'm -- I'm just going to
20 have to get the -- the Court's schedule here and
21 we'll set something. Okay.
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: Judge, may I make a
23 suggestion with counsels', urn, input? I don't think
24 it would be -- it would take that much time. Is
25 there any chance that we could maybe take a half an
59
1 hour Thursday morning at, say, 8:30, before we start
2 the jury process at 9, and just finish up on that,
3 just to give your opinion and ruling, as opposed to
4 coming back on Monday? What to you think?
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That -- that --
6 that --
7 THE COURT: That's fine. We would be -- we
8 would be doing this in Madison then?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yeah.
10 THE COURT: Sure.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: If that's all right.
12 THE COURT: It's fine with me.
''
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh, that would save time
·)
14 and -- your time and ours.
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I think they probably
16 have to use the video -- the -- the movie they watch
17 before the jury selection. So while they're
18 watching that, we could do
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: We could finish up on
20 this.
21 THE COURT: Sure. Sure. Let's do it --
22 we'll do it then that way.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: That would be great.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: No.
60
1 THE COURT: If not, we're adjourned.
2 Counsel, I'll see you in chambers.
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)SS.
15 Dated this 10th day of April, 2007.
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BRANCH 3
2
3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
4
PLAINTIFF, JURY TRIAL
5 VOIR DIRE - DAY 1
8 DEFENDANT.
10
DATE: APRIL 12, 2007
11
BEFORE: HON . JEROME L. FOX
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
16 THOMAS FALLON
Special Prosecutor
18 NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
20 MARK R. FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
21 On behalf of the defendant.
22 RAYMOND L. EDELSTEIN
Attorney at Law
23 On behalf of the defendant .
Defendant
25 Appeared in person .
1
COPY
1 * * * * * * * *
3 Reported by Jennifer K. Hau , RPR
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
1 INDEX
2 JURORS PAGE
3
MARA MCDONALD
4
Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 31-35
5
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 36-37
6
7 THOMAS OAKES
8 Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 38- 41
9 Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 42
10 Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 42-43
11
GREGORY HEINTZ
12
13
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 48-51
14
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 51 - 57
15
16 GORDANA MILETIC
17 Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 59-63
18 Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 63-64
19
TIMOTHY HUGHES
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 INDEX CONTINUED
2
JURORS PAGE
3
4 HEATHER RASMUSSEN
7
RACHEL TEDDER
8
Voir Examination by THE COURT 81-85
9
10
11 LEAH SHEA
12 Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 90 - 94
13 Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 94
14
LAYNE CLOSE
15
Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 95 - 103
16 109-110
18
RYAN JOHNSON
19
Voir Di re Examina t ion by THE COURT 1 11 -11 5
20
21
22 KRISTEN DURST
25
4
1 INDEX CONTINUED
2 JURORS PAGE
3
RICHARD WILLIAMS
4
Voir Dire Examinat ion by THE COURT 123 - 126
5
6
7 THOMAS HEINZEL
8 Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 130- 134
10
BECKY FOSS
11
12
13
Voir Dire Exami nation by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 139-1 40
14
15 LINDA HARRIS
16 Voir Dire Examinat i on by THE COURT 141-144
17
BRENDA GARSKE
18
Vo i r Dire Examinati on by THE COURT 146- 1 49
19
Voir Dire Exami nation by ATTORNEY FALLON 149- 150
20
21 RONALD PALTZ
22 Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 151-1 54

158
23
24
Voir Dire Exami nation by ATTORNEY FALLON 158-159
25
5
1 INDEX CONTINUED
2 JURORS PAGE
3
BEVERLY BLANKENSHIP
4
Voir Di re Exami nation by THE COURT 160-163
5
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 163
6
7 ROBERT COVINGTON

254 -255
9
Voir Dire Exami nation by ATTORNEY FALLON 168-171
10
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 171
11
12 CYNTHIA EDGE
14
LARRY THORNTON
15
16
17
18
19 HEIDI ANDERSON
21
NICHOLAS DREWSEN
22
23
24 RENEE SCHMITT
6
1 I N D E X C 0 N T I N U E D
2 JURORS PAGE
3
MICHELLE HAYMAN WARE
4
Voir Di re Examination by THE COURT 194-197
5
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 197- 199
6
7 JANEEN RUNNING
9
JUDY ORTH
10
11
12 210 -211
14
JANE McGUIRE
15
Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 211-2 15
16 217-218
18
TAMARA LOWERY
19
Voir Dire Examination by THE COURT 221 - 226
20 228-229
230-231
21
Voir Dire Examinatin by ATTORNEY FALLON 226-227
22 229-230
231
23
24
25
7
1 INDEX C 0 N T I N U E D
2 J URORS PAGE
3
PETER NEHRBASS
4
Voir Dire Examinat i on by THE COURT 232 - 23 7
5
Voi r Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 237 - 241
6
7 ASHLEY SHIPPY
10 Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 252 - 253
11
ROBERT RICE
12
13
14 265-266
15 Voir Di re Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 263 - 265
16
DIANE AUSTIN
17
18
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 2 7 0 - 273
19
20
21 LONNA SCHWIRTZ
22 Voir Dire Exami nat i on by THE COURT 278 - 28 2
24
25
8
1 I N D E X C 0 N T I N U E D
2 JURORS PAGE
3 DAVID MORTIMER

6
DIANE BLYTHE
7
8
9 296-297
11
KATHLEEN PIERONI
12
13
Voir Dire Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 299 -300
14
15 PAUL STEICHEN

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9
1 THE COURT : Counsel , are we ready to
2 proceed? Cou rt is going to call the case of State
3 of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey , 06 CF 88 .
4 Appearances , please.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ : The State appears by
6 Calumet County Distri ct Attorney Ken Kratz . Also
7 appearing is Assistant Attorney General Tom
8 Fallon, Assistant District Attorney Norm Gahn ,
9 all appearing as special prosecutors .
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Mark Fremgen
11 appears wit h Attor ney Ray Edelstein . Brendan
12 Dassey appears in person .
13 THE COURT : Yeah. Could you move the
14 microphone closer? We ' re having a little trouble
15 hearing .
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Attorney Mark Fremgen
17 appears with Attorney Ray Edelstein . Brendan
18 Dassey , defendant , appears in person .
19 THE COURT : All right. This matter is set
20 today for a jury pick . Before we get to that, there
21 are a couple of , uh, issues that the Court has to
22 complete . The first of those is that on Apr i l 5 ,
23 2007 , at a motion hearing in , uh , Branch 3 of the
24 Manitowoc County Courthouse , uh , the Court made a
25 number of rulings on a number of different motions .
10
1 One of the motions, and I ' m referring
2 here to a Motion in Limine , Series II, Roman
3 Numeral II, filed by the State, con t ained at
4 i n the first part of that motion a reques t to
5 admit a number of telephone conversations and
6 interviews between the defendant and law
7 enforcement officers .
8 Uh, the one item, as I understand it , at
9 issue today is Item J on that list, which was a
10 May 13 , 2006 , phone call that this defendant made
11 from the Sheboygan County Jail to his mother.
12 Uh, that item was preceded by Item I, which is a
13 May 13, 2006, statement given by the defendant in
14 an interview to law enforcement authorities.
15 It's my understanding -- and he re I 'm
16 addressing you, Mr. Edelstein - - it's my
17 understanding that you have no current objection
18 to the admission of that statement . At least no
19 objection based on voluntariness. That, in fact ,
20 uh, you believe that this goes to an issue called
21 " ineffective ass istance of counsel " which I have
22 said on previous motion rulings that , uh, would
23 be heard after the -- the resolution of trial in
24 this case. Is that an accurate summary?
25 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: It is, Your Honor.
11
1 THE COURT : But you still object to , uh , J;
2 is that correct?
3 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Yes, Your Honor .
4 THE COURT : Could you bring your microphone
5 over , please? Uh , J is a telephone conference, as I
6 noted before , betwee n the defendant and his mother ,

7 which occurred on May 13, t he same date that the
8 defendant gave a statement to, uh , law enforcement
9 authorities . Uh , the motion was argued at the
10 April 5 , 2007 , motion hearing.
11 Since that time , I have received a copy
12 of the DVDs of the May 13 interview, as well as a
13 copy -- a CD containing the phone conversation
14 between the defendant and his mother .
15 Uh , does either party wish to be heard
16 any more on this today? I think , Mr . Fallon, you
17 were the proponent of the - - of the motion
18 admitting this as evidence , and and
19 Mr . Edelstein was objecting to it . Oh , I heard ,
20 and I ' ve since reviewed the trans cript . But far
21 be it from me if you have something else to say
22 today?
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: Just t wo points. One ,
24 I think the Court was correct in that insofar as
25 the Riley case is really dispositive of that
12
1 issue .
2 And , secondly , even if there was not an
3 implied consent t heory , there still is, uh , under
4 our , uh , electronic surve il lance law, the -- the

5 tape is , nonetheless , admissible , um, u nder
6 s tatutory interpretation as well .

7 So under either theory, I think the
8 conversation is admissible evi dence .
9 THE COURT: All r ight . Mr . Edelstein ,

10 anything further?
11 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Your Honor , as to

12 the State ' s authority to record those calls , we
13 certainly don ' t ta ke any issue with that . Our

14 point simply wa s that we believe that that
15 statement , um, that was created on t he 13th by
16 that t elephone call , was as a result of the

17 improper inducements and coercion against t he
18 defendant brought about during t he course of the

19 5/13 interview between our c lient , Special Agent
20 Fassbende r and Detective Wiegert .
21 And I believe the Court has had a n

22 opportunity to review that . There we r e mul t iple
23 references to , uh , the concept that our client

24 needed to make t hi s phone call , and that was
25 repeated several t imes .
13
1 Beyond that , we have no other argument ,
2 Your Honor.
3 THE COURT : All right . Uh , at the April 5 ,
4 2007 , motion hearing in Manitowoc , as I noted, the
5 defendant objected to the admission of the May 13 ,
6 2006 , phone conversation between him and his mother ,
7 Barb Janda .
8 According to defenda nt's counsel , the
9 phone conversation closely followed an interview
10 session between the defendant and Investigator
11 Mark Wiegert and Department of Justice Agent Tom
12 Fassbender. Defendant -- uh , defense counsel
13 contend that the defendant was so strongly urged
14 by one or both of them to make the call home to
15 his mother that the resulting call was
16 involuntary .
17 The d efense objection went to the
18 substance of the defendant's conversation with
19 his mother as being the product of someone who is
20 harassed by police into making admissions against
21 his own interest by relaying to her some of the,
22 arguably , inculpatory informat ion he supplied
23 Wiegert and Fassbender .
24 Defense counsel said the police conduct ,
25 in urging t he defendant to call home, was , in
14
1 effect, an effort to get him to repeat what he
2 told the police in a recorded telephone call to
3 his mother; thus, establishing additional
4 evidence to be used him .
5 In Counsel's words, quote, this is
6 tantamount to the creation, the coercive
7 creation, of evidence. And this comes from page
8 44, li nes 2 to 5 of the hearing transcript.
9 Because Counse l believes it to be coercive ,
10 Counsel argues that it was not voluntary and ,
11 therefore, not admissible.
12 I have reviewed the three-plus hours of
13 the May 13 interview and find at least four
14 instances where one of the officers , usually
15 Investigator Wiegert, suggested to the
16 defender -- de fendant that he should call his
17 mother .
18 In the first of these, the defendant is
19 told that it - - it would be a good idea to call
20 his mother and tell her what he told the police .
21 She has the right to know, or words to that
22 effect, are used, and she should hea r it from you
23 rather than me. That was said by Investigator
24 Wiegert. He closed out that portion by saying ,
25 it ' s up to you. Your decision. Just a
15
1 suggestion .
2 Later, he said, I hope you call your mom
3 before I do . And toward the end of the
4 interview , the defendant, again , is urged to call
5 his mother, then asked what he plans to do. Or
6 asked when he plans to do so. He replies,
7 tonight.
8 A few minutes later, he is admonished to
9 be honest with your mom. The only way she can
10 help you is if she knows the truth, end o f quote .
11 The police advice to the defendant ,
12 while arguably emphat ic in at least one instance,
13 occupied no more than a few minutes of the
14 interview at best . The defendant was under no
15 obligation to make a call . He was not forced to
16 use the telephone .
17 The subsequent cone -- phone call from
18 the defendant to his mother was made from the
19 Sheboygan County Jail , and t he conversational
20 portion was preceded by a warning that it was
21 being monitored and recorded . It fully complied
22 with the one party implied consent dictate of
23 Section 968.29 (3b) as ex -- as explicated in
24 State v. Riley, 2 87 Wis. 2 d 2 44, at 2 48.
25 The defendant was fu l ly aware that the
16
1 contents of his conversation were being r ecorded.
2 He was not compelled in any way to make an ad --
3 to make admissions against his interest to h i s
4 mother . What he said was his choice and his
5 alone .
6 The Court finds that neither the
7 quantity nor the quality of the police
8 solicitations constitute coercive behavior on
9 their part such that the defendant was deprived
10 of his ability to make a free and unconstrained
11 choice .
12 To suggest that because a police officer
13 says that he may call the defendant ' s mother to
14 talk to her if the defendant does not do so is
15 somehow tantamount to coercion , ignores a couple
16 of critical factors .
17 First, the call made by the defendant
18 was outside the physical presence of the
19 officers .
20 Secondly , the defendant chose what to
21 say without prompting by any member of t he police
22 or any law enforcement authority .
23 And, thirdly , he was under no compu l sion
24 to make that call or any call .
25 Lastly , the Court is unaware of any
17
1 case , or line of cases , that would coun tenance,
2 under these circumstances , the finding of
3 involuntary -- involuntariness for inculpatory
4 statements made by a defendant to a third party.
5 Uh , with that said , the the State ' s
6 motion in limine , regarding this particular item,
7 uh, is granted.
8 There is one other issue that has arisen
9 since that time , but grows out of t he April 5
10 hearing, and that is , uh, at the April 5 hearing ,
11 the Court ordered that the defense turn over to
12 the prosecution, uh, t he raw material , the notes ,
13 the factual bases on which Dr . Robert Gordon made
14 his evaluation of this defendant.
15 I received on -- on April 10 -- And
16 and it was to be turned over by April 10 . I
17 received , on April 10, from the special
18 prosecutor , uh, the fax indicating that it had
19 not yet been turned over and he had no i dea at
20 that point when i t was going to be turned over .
21 Uh , Mr. Kratz , do you now have that information?
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ : No .
23 THE COURT : Mr. Fremgen?

24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge , my office
25 spoke with Dr. Gordon. He was in L.A . yesterday
18
1 morning . Flew in yesterday night at 10 p . m. He
2 ind icat ed he woul d h and-deliver that document
3 today to t he hotel . Uh, I gave him the address
4 of the hotel .
5 THE COURT : All right. Uh , Mr . Kratz, do
6 you contend at this point that you are , uh , going to
7 be ne gative l y affect ed by the procedure that
8 Mr . Fremgen proposes?
9 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Well , I - - I certainly
10 have been , uh , affected by it , Judge , in that I 'm
11 less able to prepare for , um , the doctor ' s , um ,
12 cross- exami na tio n or t he p r epa ration of our , u h,
13 own expert . Uh , I ' m going to cont i nue to ask the
14 Court to withhold ruling on any , uh , possible
15 sanctions until I look over the materials . I ' ve
16 mad e arr angements to deliver them forthwith to
17 my , um , expert.
18 Frankl y , Judge , the , um , remedies
19 available , whether it ' s exclusion of Dr . Gordon ,
20 uh , or a continuance of the trial , both are , uh ,
21 unt enable . Uh, the former for the many impolitic
22 issues h ave b een -- t hey ma y raise , especially
23 the Court ' s r uling as to this being the heart of
24 the defense and t he Sixth Amendment , uh , issues ,
25 uh , that may be involved , and the logistics of ,
19
1 uh , continuing or , uh , moving this trial is , I
2 believe , als o unreasonable .
3 So a t this time , Your Honor , I'm s i mply
4 alerting the Court that I don' t have the
5 materials yet . I would ask for, u h , the ability
6 to , um, revisit this issue shoul d that become
7 necessary .
8 Uh , that a l l having been said , however ,
9 uh , per t he Court ' s urging , uh , I have made , uh ,
10 other arrangements to speed up the process of the
11 r eview and the t ransport of that information .
12 And, so , uh, fra n kl y , I thi n k I ' m going to be
13 able to get that done and I won't be asking
14 further , but I would respectfully ask the Court
15 to at least withhold a ruling .
16 THE COURT : All right. The record
17 should r e flect that - - that Counsel a nd here
18 I ' m referring to , uh , Mr . Kratz and and
19 Mr . Fremgen -- and I had a -- a phone conference ,
20 uh , discussing this matter , uh , shortly after I
21 received t he fax on on April 10 .
22 Uh , Mr . Kratz said at that time , as he
23 is saying today , that , uh, while there certainly
24 are powers granted to the Court under 971.23,
25 specifically (7m) , which allows the Court to
20
1 impose sanctions , there didn ' t appear at this
2 stage to be , one , uh , this wouldn ' t be the time
3 to impose sanctions , and , two , the the

4 remedies sanctions would be pretty or at least
5 sanctions under seven -- (7ma) would be pretty
6 draconian .
7 Uh , the Court said that it -- it - -
8 based on the fact that Mr . Kratz had already
9 received , uh , probably over two hours worth of

10 direct examination testimony by DVD , and also had
11 a chance to -- I should say direct examination
12 testimony of Dr . Gordon and had also had an
13 opportunity to examine Dr . Gordon , that the Court
14 thought that Mr . Kratz had a fairly substantial
15 bank of information on which to draw , that the
16 Court would , uh, withhold making any ruling .

17 Uh , I'm going to adopt Mr . Kratz ' s
18 suggestion here and I won ' t make any ruling on it
19 at , uh -- at this point.
20 Anything else before we proceed to voir

21 dire , gentlemen?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I just
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Is -- Go ahead .

24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I -- I just have two
25 issues, Judge . Um , I provided to the State
21
1 earlier , and I ' ll provide copy to the Court , I
2 amended our witness lis t to add one additional
3 witness. It would be about a five , ten-minute
4 witness. But I intended to withdraw Barb Tadych ,
5 Barb Janda , um, from the list .
6 The State had i ndicated that because we
7 h ad her on our list , they didn't subpoena her .
8 We've agreed that we'll continue to keep her as a
9 witness, but the parties are agreeing to exclude
10 her from the sequestration order so she can
11 appear in t he courtroom, except if there's an
12 issue that comes up with a witness in regards t o
13 those phone calls from the jail to to -- to
14 the wi tness , then she would be asked to leave the
15 courtroom for that testimony . I think the State
16 agrees to that .
17 THE COURT: Would that , then, be any phone
18 call in which she's involved in or what?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I -- I think that
20 we'll get a heads-up, is my understanding , from
21 the State as to if we if they intend to call
22 this particular witness that may be discuss ing
23 this phone call. Uh , it won't be in the middle
24 of testimony, but we ' ll give her the notice that
25 she should leave the courtroom at that point.
22
1 THE COURT : Mr . Kratz , is that an accurate
2 summary of t he agreement?
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: It i s , Judge , I had
4 gotten Mr . Fremgen ' s , uh , amended , uh , witness
5 list , uh , adding , uh , one short witness,
6 removing , uh , Ms . Tadych . And I understand that

7 the State has agreed to allow her to participate
8 and be in the trial unless , uh , we alert , uh , the
9 Court and Counsel that there is a problem .

10 The State also informed the defens e
11 that , uh , there is a possible witness , a
12 Detective Todd Baldwin f r om t he Mari nette
13 Sheriff ' s Department , uh , who accompanied , uh ,
14 another officer during an interview. Detective
15 Baldwin may or may not be called . Mr . Fremgen
16 was aware of , Detecti ve, uh , Bal dwin , and I

17 bel i eve , uh , s houl d he be called t hat he has no
18 objection to that amendment as well .
19 Lastly , the Court has asked that the ,
20 uh , State , uh , prepare a subset of witnesses who
21 may have ties to the , uh , Madison or Dane County

22 area . We have , uh , done that and we are
23 prepared , once the jury selection process begins ,

24 to identify those at the Court ' s urging .
25 THE COURT : All right . Anything more ,
23
1 Mr. Fremgen?
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : There is one other,
3 and that 's on the Motion in Limine, Series II, by
4 the State. Uh , we just want a clarification . I
5 believe that Mr. Fallon had indicated at the
6 motion hearing on April 5 , under Section (ln), if

7 there were additional calls, they would provide
8 notice ahead of time . So I don't think there's
9 been a ruling that that ' s a blanket ruling to

10 a l low admissibil i ty of any other additional
11 calls , but the State would provide us not i ce and
12 that issue would be re - litigated .
13 THE COURT : Mr. Fallon , that was my
14 understanding.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: That is correct.
16 THE COURT : All right .

17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And I don 't believe
18 the Court ruled on Series II , sub-2, the phone
19 calls from the Avery phone calls?
20 THE COURT : No. As I recall, I withheld
21 making a ruling on that . I said that the context
22 was everything and before I heard how -- if and how
23 they were intended to be used, I couldn't make a

24 ruling.
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine .
24
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: And that ' s re -- t hat
3 was our request as well , because t here are
4 multiple t heories of admissibility and -- and
5 t here are theories in which they would not be
6 admiss i ble . It depends on t h e context in which
7 t he issue comes up .
8 THE COURT: All right . Uh , Mr . Kr atz , I
9 th i nk I had asked you at the prior - - or prosecution
10 to draft an order , uh , on t he - - the Series II
11 Mot i ons in Limi ne . I f I didn ' t -- I didn ' t?
12 ATTORNEY KRATZ : You didn ' t , but we
13 wil l , Judge.
14 THE COURT : All right . All right . You --
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: You had -- Judge , you
16 ordered that the -- the defense provide one in
17 regards to Dr . Gordon ' s order?
18 THE COURT : Right .
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I did get the
20 transcript from t he court reporter today a nd I ' ll
21 have t hat .
22 THE COURT : Which one -- which one of
23 you wants to provide an order , uh, discuss ing
24 t his agreement about witnesses ?
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I ' ll -- I ' ll provide
25
1 that.
2 THE COURT: All right. Anything else,
3 then , be fore we move to voir dire?
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ : No.
5 THE COURT: All right . We're -- we're
6 going to be adjourned for a few moments. The jurors

7 are -- are going to be brought up here. I expected
8 there -- we're going to call 55 of them, so I expect
9 they ' re going to be filling most of these seats , so
10 we'll see .
11 And I'm just going to remind everybody
12 that during the -- during the voir dire, t here'l l
13 be no electronic recording of any of the
14 proceeding , uh , nor will there be any mention in
15 any reporting or reportage of any names of any
16 jurors. All right . We 're adjourned .
17 (Recess had at 9:10 a .m. )
18 (Reconvened at 9:21 a . m.)
19 THE COURT: Good morning , ladies and
20 gentlemen. I'm Jerome Fox . I preside over the
21 thi rd b ranch of the Manitowoc County Circuit Court.
22 We are here today to choose a sequestered jury for a
23 case entitled State of Wisconsin vs . Brendan Dassey.
24 It is a criminal case , and in a moment I'm going to
25 read to you from the charging document which is
26
1 called the Information. Before I do that , I wa nt
2 you to understand the follow i ng :
3 That the Information is, as I told you ,
4 a charging document and is nothing more than a
5 written form of the accusation or accusations
6 against the defendant charging him with the
7 commission of one or mor e criminal acts .
8 You are not to consider it as evidence
9 against the defendant in any way. It does not
10 raise any inference of guilt on the part of the
11 defendant .
12 In this case , t h e Information charges as
13 follows:
14 That Brendan Dassey , on or about Monday,
15 October 31, 2005 , in the town of Gibson ,
16 Manitowoc County , Wisconsi n, as a party to a
17 cri me , did cau se the death of Teresa Halbach with
18 intent to kill that person contrary to Wiscons in
19 Statutes 90 -- 940 . 01 (l)(a) , 939.50 (3)(a) , and
20 939.05 .
21 Count 2 , that Brendan Dassey, on or
22 about Monday , October 31 , 2005 , in the town of
23 Gibson , Manitowoc County , Wisconsin , as a party
24 to a crime , did mutilate , disfigure or dismember
25 a corpse with intent to conceal the crime,
27
1 contrary to Section 940 . 11 (1) , 939.50 (3) (f) ,
2 and 939 . 05 .
3 Count 3, t hat Brenda n Oassey , on or
4 about Monday , October 31 , 2005 , in the town of
5 Gibson , Manitowoc County , Wisconsin , as a party
6 to a crime , did have sexual intercourse with

7 Te re sa Halb ach without that person ' s consent by
8 use of a dangerous weapon, contrary to Section
9 940 . 225 (1) (b) , 939 . 50 (3) (b) , and 939 . 05 ,

10 Wisconsin Statutes.
11 To each of these charges that I ' ve read ,
12 the defendant ente r ed a plea of not guilty, which
13 means a denial of each and every material
14 allegation in the charge .
15 Ladies and gentlemen, the law presumes
16 that each pe r son charged with an offense is

17 innocent . The pres umption of i nnocence stays
18 with the defendant throughout the trial and
19 prevails at the conclusion of the trial un l ess it
20 is overcome by evidence that satisfies the jury

21 that the defe ndant is proved guilty beyond a
22 reas onable doubt .
23 The defendant does not have to prove his

24 innocence . The burden of proving the defendant
25 guilty of every element of the crime charged is
28
1 upon t he State , and before a jury can return a
2 verd ict of guilty, the State must prove to the
3 satisfaction of that jury beyond a reasonable
4 doubt that the defendant is guilty .
5 At this time , I ' m going to introduce to
6 you counsel t hat will be participating in this
7 case . First of all, representing the State is
8 Attorney Ken Kratz . Mr . Kratz?
9 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Good morning .
10 THE COURT : Attorney Tom Fallon.
11 Mr. Fallon?
12 ATTORNEY FALLON : Morning .
13 THE COURT: Attorney Norman Gahn . Mr.
14 Gahn.
15 ATTORNEY GAHN : Morning .
16 THE COURT : Uh , the defense is represented
17 by Attorney Mark Fremgen. Mr . Fremgen?
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Good morning.
19 THE COURT: And Attorney Ray Ede lstein .
20 With them at the counsel table is the defendant,
21 Brendan Dassey . Why don't you stand up, Mr . Dassey .
22 All right. Be seated.
23 Ladies and gent l emen , would you please
24 stand. The clerk is going to administer the
25 oath .
29
1 THE CLERK: Would you all raise your
2 right hands, please?
3 (Jurors sworn)
4 THE COURT : Be seated. Uh , ladies and
5 gentlemen , we are now going to conduct a process
6 known as voir dire . Voir dire , in French , means to
7 speak the truth , and it involves asking prospective
8 jurors questions so we can determine that we have a
9 fair and impartial jury to hear th is case .
10 We're going to start by doing something
11 called i ndividual voir dire . That is , a juror
12 will be called by name a nd will be escorted by
13 the jury clerk to a separate room where he' ll --
14 he or she wil l b e asked several question s after
15 which, and depending on the answers to the
16 question, the juror'll juror will be escorted
17 to the j ury box , which is over here to the le ft ,
18 or -- and be seated or will be excused. Then
19 another juror will be called , uh , and so on .
20 This is -- this i s individual voir dire.
21 We will go through t hat same process until we
22 have seated 30 jurors in thi s jury box . At that
23 point , I will conduct what is known as g eneral
24 voir dire . In doing that , I 'm not trying to pry
25 i nto anyone's background. The whole point is to
30
1 assure that the people chosen as jurors represent
2 a fair a n d i mpartial jury .
3 Afte r I ' m done q uestioning at t h e
4 general voir dire , each s i de , the prosecution and
5 the defense will have an opportunity to ask some
6 q uestions. We will ultimately be selecting 16
7 jurors . Twelve j uro rs will comprise the final
8 pan e l wi t h the remaining four acting as
9 alternates .
10 The determination of who will be
11 alternat es , however , will not be made until the
12 close of the case . That i s , aft e r the case h as
13 been entirely put b efore t he jury .
14 Uh, Madam Clerk, would you give us a
15 couple of min utes so we can set up in the , uh ,
16 next room, and then bring the -- the first j u ror
17 in.
18 I direct that t h e rest of you remain in
19 this cou rtroom . You may visit and talk among
20 you -- among each other , but please , remember ,
21 d on ' t tal k a nything about t his case . All ri g h t .
22 (Reces s had at 9 : 25 a . m. )
23 (Reconvened at 9 : 32 a .m.)
24 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
25 BY THE COURT :
31
1 Q Good morning, Ms. McDonal d .
2 A Hello.
3 Q As I told you, we were going to do what is called
4 i ndividual voir dire in this case , and I'm going
5 to start with the following question :
6 This is the State of Wisconsin vs .

7 Brendan Dassey and it 's received a lot of
8 publicity . Have you hea rd anything about this
9 case or read anything about it?

10 A Yes, I have.
11 Q Uh, from what source did you l earn whatever
12 information that you got?
13 A I think the Wisconsin State Journal.

14 Q Based on the information that you got from the
15 Wisconsin State Journal, have you formed any
16 opinion with respect to gui l t or innocence in

17 this matter?
18 A I don ' t know. I do know that I -- I read an early
19 article, uh, that made me lean towards f eel ing t hat
20 there was guilt, but, uh, at this point, um,

21 depending on what the defense presents will
22 determine
23 Q Would you
24 A -- my final judgment.
25 Q Sorry. Uh, would you be abl e to set as ide any
32
1 opinion -- and it sounds like this is a
2 provisional sort of opinion -- any opinion you
3 may have formed , set it aside and judge the case

4 only on the evidence that's presented in the
5 courtroom?
6 A I believe so.
7 Q Have you discussed this case with others?
8 A No.
9 Q Have you had a family member or a friend who was

10 killed either accidentally or otherwi se?
11 A Oh, I -- Do you mean by another person?
12 Q Yes .
13 A No.
14 Q If you were called to serve as a juror in this
15 case , can you disregard a nything you may have
16 read or heard in the media, or from any source,
17 and decide this case based solely on the evidence

18 produced in the in the courtroom and on the
19 instructions given you by a Judge?
20 A I believe I can.
21 Q Have you, or a close friend, or relative , ever
22 been the victim of or a witness to any kind of
23 crime , whether it was reported to law enforcement

24 authorities or not?
25 A I was mugged once in, uh, Madison about ten years ago
33
1 but
2 Q Was that reported?
3 A Yes, it was.
4 Q Does that affect your feelings toward the police
5 one way or another?
6 A No . I tend to regard the police with, uh , respect.

7 Q Have you or a close friend ever been the vict im
8 of a sexual assault?
9 A No .
10 Q Have you , a close fri end, or family member , e v er
11 been charged with a crime?
12 A No .
13 Q If selected as a juror in this case , you will be
14 instructed that Brendan Dassey is presumed
15 innocent and that he cannot be found guilty of
16 any offense, un less and unti l the State has

17 proven each element of each offense beyond a
18 reasonable doubt. If you were selected as a
19 juror in this case , would you be able to follow
20 t hat instruction in reaching a verdict?
21 A I believe so .
22 Q If selected as a juror in this case , you will
23 also be instructed that Brendan Dassey has a

24 constitutional right not to testify, and that if
25 he decides not to testify in the case , you cannot
34
1 hold that against him. Rather , you must base
2 your decision sole ly on the e vidence introduced
3 at his -- at trial. If you were selected as a
4 j u ror in this case , would you be able t o fo l low
5 tha t instruct i on?
6 A Yes .
7 Q All righ t . That, uh, concludes the individual
8 voir dire -- voi r dire q u estions I have. Um --
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: I have none.
10 THE COURT: Well, uh , my unde rstandi ng of
11 the process was that I was goi ng to con duct i t and ,
12 uh , whatever q uestions you may have had , assuming
13 that , uh, the juror is seated , you -- you may d o
14 tha t on general voir dire .
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Actually, J u dge , I
16 thought we would have moderate followup is what
17 the Court instructed us i n chambers.
18 THE COURT : Did I say that?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Moderate f ollowup , I
20 think was the q u ote.
21 THE COURT: Is that on the record
22 somewhere?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Not on the record , I
24 don ' t think.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON : You did allow us a
35
1 few follow-up --
2 THE COURT: All r i ght .
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- questions depending
4 on the ans wers , a nd I have none for the record .
5 THE COURT : All r ight . Go ahead .
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I just have a few .
7 THE COURT : For moderat e followup .
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I will be very
9 moderate .
11 BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN :
12 Q Um, you'd indicated , um, when aske d the question
13 about whether you formed an opini on , you said
14 you -- it was to -- leaning towards guilt is what
15 you said . Okay . But you also kind of --
16 depending upon what the d e fense presents.
17 A Uh-huh .
18 Q Do you believe that we nee d to prove innocence in
19 order to change your opinion?
20 A No . I - - it just depends on the , uh -- I h ad read a
21 s tor y earl y on. Uh , I formed a partia l opinion, or
22 an opinion, based on t hat story . I ' v e come to , uh ,
23 realize there may b e an alternate expl a na tio n for
24 t hat .
25 Q You don ' t - - you understand , as the Jud ge said ,
36
1 one of the instructions will be that the
2 defendant doesn' t have to prove i nnocence?
3 A I understand that.
4 Q And doesn ' t even have to test ify?
5 A I understand that .
6 Q Okay . One last question. Judge had asked you
7 whether your, uh, unfortunate incident of being
8 mugg ed in Madison impacted your feeling towards
9 police . Does i t impact your feeling towards
10 p ersons charged with crimes?
11 A Person was never caught.
12 Q Okay .
13 A You know, so , uh, no , my -- No .
14 Q Okay . Thank you.
15 THE COURT : All right . Um , why don' t we do
16 this: Wou l d you just, uh -- wel l, we' re going to
17 ester -- escort her to the jury box. Al l right .
18 Thank you.
19 JUROR McDONALD : Thank you .
20 (Wherein juror is escorted out . )
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge , in regards to
22 the procedure t h en , if we have a c ha lleng e for
23 cause , should we do it now?
24 THE COURT : Ye ah .
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I don ' t have a
37
1 challenge for cause , but if -- if we did.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: My t hought was , and
3 Mr . Kratz and I were j ust commenting , we should

4 probably have them wait in this antechamber here ,
5 have a quick discussion whether we think we need
6 another question or a for cause

7 THE COURT : Right. And that ' s what I was
8 going to suggest with this one , but it didn ' t appear
9 as though anyone had --

10 ATTORNEY FALLON : This one was fine ,
11 so --
12 THE COURT : Yeah. Okay . But we 'l l do
13 that . We'll just have, uh, the clerk or the
14 judicial assistant have her right in the antechamber

15 and then make a decision, yea or nay.
16 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is Juror No .
17 8 , Thomas Oakes .
18 THE COURT : Be seated , Mr. Oakes . Good
19 morning, again .
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q Uh, this is the -- the case here is , as you know ,
23 the State vs . Brendan Dassey and it ' s received a

24 lot of publicity . Have you heard anything about
25 the case?
38
1 A Um, I have.
2 Q Uh, from what source did you learn whatever it is
3 you heard?
4 A Um, mostly local news and some newspape r accounts .
5 Q Are you talking about Dane County accounts of
6 some sort?
7 A Yeah . State, uh -- State Journal .
8 Q Based on -- on what you have heard , have you
9 formed any opin ion of guilt or innoce nce in the
10 matter?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you dis cussed this case with anyone?
13 A I have not. I mean , not more than just briefly
14 before I got - - found out that I was pic ked for the
15 jury pool.
16 Q Was this some sor t of in-depth discussion --
17 A No.
18 Q -- or just simpl y in pass i ng?
19 A Just in passing .
20 Q Uh, did, during the course of that dis c ussion ,
21 you express an opinion to whom whoever it was
22 you talke d about as to t he il t or gen - - or t he
23 guilt or innocence of this defendant?

24 A Did I ?
25 Q Yeah.
39
1 A No.
2 Q Have you had a family member or friend who was
3 ki ll ed accidentally or otherwise?
4 A Um, yes . A cousin died in a car cash .
5 Q All right . Is there some -- any -- any c r i mi nal

6 prosecution
7 A No.
8 Q -- as a resul t of that?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you , or a family member , or close f ri e nd ,
11 ever killed anyone?
12 A No.
13 Q Uh, if you were called upon to serve as a juror
14 in this case , can you disregard anyth i ng you may

15 hav e he ard or read in the media , or f r om a ny
16 source , and decide t he case solely based on the

17 evidence that's presented i n court?
18 A I believe so .
19 Q Have you , o r a clos e f ri e nd, or r el ative , e ve r
20 been the victim of or a wi tness to any kind of

21 crime , whe ther i t was r e ported to law e nforcement
22 a utho rities or not ?
23 A No.
24 Q All ri ght. Ever h a d a f r iend , or -- or a
25 re l ative , c l ose f ri e nd , who ' s been a v ict i m of a
40
1 sexual assault?
2 A No.
3 Q Have you , a close friend , or a family member,
4 ever been charged with a crime?
5 A No.
6 Q If you would be selected as a juror in this case ,
7 you would be instructed that Brendan Dassey is
8 presumed innocent and that he cannot be fo und
9 guilty of any offense , unless and until the State
10 has proven each element of each offense beyond a
12 juror, would you be able to follow that
13 instruction?
14 A I beli e ve so .
15 Q If you were selected as a j uror, you wi ll also be
16 instructed tha t Mr . Dassey has a constitutional
17 right not to te stify in this case , and t hat if he
18 d ecides not to testify, you cannot ho ld it
19 against him. Rather , you must base your decision
20 solely on the evidence introduced at trial. If
21 you were selected as a juror , would you b e able
22 to follow that instruction?
23 A I belie ve so.
24 THE COURT: All right . Counsel?
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: One clarification .
41
2 BY ATTORNEY FALLON :
3 Q I believe , sir, you indi cated you were somewhat
4 familiar wi th the case from reading the paper?
5 A A little bit , yeah.
6 Q Just so t hat we' re clear , is it the case
7 involving Steven Avery tha t you're most famil iar
8 with or the case -- or this case involving
9 Brenda n Dassey?
10 A Mostly the Avery part . But they -- this was also
11 me ntioned in those accounts , I guess , so a little
12 b i t.
13 Q All right . In terms of i f -- if i t's po ssible
14 for you to somehow divide the two in your mind ,
15 wha t you attribute to knowing about this case ,
16 are you a b le to set that aside and decide this
17 case solely on wha t you hear presented in tri al?
18 A Uh , yes , I believe so .
19 Q All right .
20 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen?
22 BY ATTORNEY FREMGE N :
23 Q I wish to follow up on one que stion , Mr. Oakes .
24 I n your questionnaire , you ' ve indicated you have
25 bee n the victim of a hit and run?
42
1 A Well , yeah . I didn ' t know if t hat necessarily
2 count e d a s -- a s a -- Yeah . I mean , yes , I -- I was.
3 I di dn ' t know if t ha t -- if t h a t' s what he meant
4 by --
5 Q And -- and I think you mentioned that once in
6 case , um , the person might have been , uh , charged
7 with an OW I?
8 A Right . Yeah . Yep.
9 Q Did -- did that have any impact on -- I mean, did
10 it upset you that your car was totaled by this
11 guy?
12 A Urn , yeah . But , you know , I can ' t say that I didn ' t .
13 Q Wou ld that impact on you r feelings towards people
14 charged with crimes?
15 A I don ' t think so . I got over it pretty qui c k , so ...
16 Q Than k you .
17 THE COURT: Any other questions?
18 ATTORNEY FALLON : No .
19 THE COURT : All right. Um , why don ' t you
20 just take him into the antechamber for a moment so
21 the l awyers can talk to -- Thank you , Mr . Oakes.
23 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon?
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: No motion.
43
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No motion.
2 THE COURT : All right. He will then be
3 seated . Now , who's going to notify the -- Ah, good .
4 Thank you . This is Juror He intz?
5 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: This is Juror No .
6 3, Gregory Heintz.
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q Morning, Mr. Heintz .
10 A Morning.
11 Q Uh, I ' m going to ask you, uh, some questions,
12 and -- and counsel may have a follow-up question
13 or two. This, as you know , is the case entitled
14 the State vs. Brendan Dassey, and it's received a
15 lot of publicity.
16 A Uh- huh .
17 Q Have you heard anything about the case before you
18 got here to court today?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Uh, from what source did you hear whatever it is
21 that you heard?
22 A News . Uh , local news , internet .
23 Q Have you formed any opinions as a result of what
24 you heard about either the guilt or the innocence
25 of this defendant?
44
1 A Not a definite opinion but maybe some biases based on
2 what I 've read and heard .
3 Q Well, let me as k you t his, would you be able to
4 set , uh, those opin ion s , or as you refer to t h em ,
5 those biases, aside and judge t his case only on
6 t he e vidence presented i n court?
7 A I ' d like to think I could. Yes . It's in t he back of
8 your mind what you know, so I don't know how that
9 would affect --
10 Q Have you discussed the case with anyone?
11 A Nothing more t han I kne w what case it was .
12 Q No in- depth discussion?
13 A No .
14 Q Just in passing if at all?
15 A Yeah , about . I would call i t in passing .
16 Q Have you had a -- a family member or a friend who
17 was killed accidentally or otherwise?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you , a family member , or a c lose frie nd,
20 ever ki lled a nyone?
21 A No .
22 Q Have you ever , uh , been the victim of a crime?
23 A Personally, n o .
24 Q Uh , famil y member a v ictim of a crime?
25 A Um , parents . Uh, I had a credit card stolen , had
45
1 some com -- computer show up on their doorstep. So
2 fra ud, I guess.
3 Q Uh, was i t reported to l aw enforcement?
4 A Yes .
5 Q And was the -- was t he matter resolved one way or
6 another?
7 A Um, not hing more happened.
8 Q Did whatever didn' t happen o r did happen , does it
9 affect your view of l aw enforcement in any way?
10 A No .
11 Q Uh, have you ever had a close friend or relative
12 who's been the vict im of a sexual assau l t? I
13 think I noted on your your -- your
14 questionnaire that you may have had an
15 ex-brother-in-law?
16 A Yeah , ex-brother-in-law, daughter , not with my
17 sister, but with his first wife, who I ' ve met, but
18 just briefly . So maybe a short answer is no ,
19 although an acquaintance maybe .
20 Q Uh -- I just -- Has that left , in any way, a ny
21 las t ing i mpression in your mind?
22 A Nothing. No . Nothing too detailed or in depth .
23 Q All right . Uh, have you , a close fr i end , or a
24 family member , ever been charged with a crime?
25 A No.
46
1 Q If you ' re selected as a juror in this case , you
2 will be instructed that Brendan Dassey is
3 presumed innocent and that he cannot be found
4 guilty of any offense, unless and until the State
6 reasonable doubt . If you were selected as a
7 juror , would you be able to fo ll ow that
8 instruction in reaching a verdict?
9 A I believe so . Um, as I mentioned in the one in
10 the questionnaire , having heard a little bit about
11 the trial , in the back of my mind, but I can follow
12 instructions and I believe I could .
13 Q Well, you're going to -- whatever you -- you
14 heard or you saw , or , uh , from the newspapers or
15 over the air , you ' re going to have to set aside ;
16 do you understand that?
17 A I understand that , and I can say that I ' m able to do
18 that , but that ' s in the back of my mind, so I ' m -- I
19 don ' t know how much I can separate the two , I guess.
20 Q If you're selected as a juror , you will also be
21 instructed t hat Brendan Dassey has a
22 constitut i onal right not to testify in this
23 case --
24 A Um-hmm.
25 Q - - and that if he decides not to testify, you
47
1 cannot hold that against him. Rather, you mus t
2 .Qase
..
,•
your decision solely on the evidence
3 irtt roduced as trial?

"
4 A Right. ·'
5 Q If you were selected as a juror , would you be
6 able to fo l low that instruction?
7 A Similar answer. I -- I believe I c ould fol low that
8 instruction. I think it wil l be hard to disassociate
9 what I -- what I do know already though .
10 Q All right .
11 A And if t hat comes out in the trial, I guess it ' s a
12 non non- is sue; right? What I answered in my
13 questionnaire?
14 Q Hmm .
15 ATTORNEY FALLON : Uh, Mr . Fallon?
16 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes . Thank you .
19 Q Um, good morning , Mr . He i ntz.
20 A Morning .
21 Q Um, just so that we're clear , uh , the Court --
22 I -- I thi n k in response to the ques -- first
23 question, and it kind of dovetails into your last
24 two responses , you say you were fami l iar with the
25 case from the news. I ' m assuming you -- you are
48
1 familiar with the case involving this man,
2 Brendan Das sey - -
3 A Um-hmm.
4 Q -- as opposed to the other gen tleman , uh,
5 Mr. Avery?
6 A Um-hmm .
7 Q All right . So you have a clear
8 THE COURT : Excuse me, just a second.
9 When you answer , could you --
10 JUROR HEINTZ: Yes.
11 THE COURT : could you say yes or no?
12 JUROR HEINTZ : Sorry .
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 Q (By Attorney Fallon) So in your mind, you -- you
15 can de l ineate the two? Differentiate the two?
16 A The two i ndividuals?
17 Q Yes .
18 A Yes .
19 Q Okay . Good . Now, here's my question, you said
20 you didn't really have any opinions, but you had
21 some biases maybe in the back of your head . You
22 keep referring to something in the back of your
23 head that is giving you some concern . Can you
24 tell us -- can you articulate what that is?
25 A Um , can I ask a question? I ' ll --
49
1 Q Sure .
2 A With t he questionnaires I filled out , has everybody
3 read those or --
4 Q Yes .
5 A Okay. I guess the the bias I have is that I
6 believe I read , or as I remember , it's been a
7 while ago now , t ha t there was a confession that was
8 rendered at one point and then withdrawn . I guess
9 that's the main thing that I' m referring to .
10 Q All right. Um , yes , you're likely to hear some,
11 uh , evidence regardin g a confession . Now, you
12 said if the re's a -- What is the -- the part of
13 that confession , and then the supposed
14 recantation of that , what is it about that that
15 causes you some concern as being a -- from being
16 a juror in the case?
17 A Well, if -- if that confessi on comes out, or that a
18 confession was made comes out in the trial, I have
19 less concern because it becomes part of the evidence ,
20 I guess . If that does n' t come out, and I know of
21 that, that I don't want that to influence my decision
22 based on the evidencB that is presented .
23 Q All right . That's
24 A That make sense?
25 Q Yes . That ' s exactly what we're concerned about .
50
1 So the - - the question the Judge has -- and that
2 goes back - - And -- And assuming , for the sake of
3 argument , the confession did not come in, would
4 you be able to , like a ny other information you
5 hear in the media , any other news coverage, would
6 you do your bes t to set that aside a nd listen
7 solel y to t he evidence which i s presented in the
8 trial?
9 A I can listen solely to the evidence that's presented .
10 Q All right . And make your dec ision accordingly?
11 A I believe so.
12 Q Good enough . Thank you .
13 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen, anything?
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Please. Thank you .
17 Q Mr . - - uh , Mr . Heintz , one of the ques t ions the
18 Judge was asking you essentially implies can you
19 fairly and impartially make a decis ion about
20 Mr . Dassey , and you said yes?
21 A Um- hmm .
22 Q So that ' d b e correct?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Okay . Uh , Mr. Fallon was asking you about
25 you r -- the bias , something in the back of your
51
1 mind that you're -- might be hard to forget , and
2 what you've mentioned was this confession and
3 recantation?
4 A Yes .
5 Q And you said, wel l , if the confession comes out,
6 that really won't be a big deal as far as your
7 opinion then?
8 A Because everybody then knows that.
9 Q So if the confession were -- if you knew right
10 now that the confession was going to be told to
11 you, what is your opinion then as to guil t or
12 innocence of Mr. Dassey?
13 ATTORNEY FALLON : I would object t o
14 that --
15 THE COURT: Uh --
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: in the context in
17 which it's asked .
18 THE COURT : He -- that's -- that's, I
19 t hink, Counsel , unnecessarily confusing . Are --
20 are -- are you saying if only the confession appears
21 as evidence, what would you do?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'm just asking
23 Mr. Heintz -- He mentioned that the confession
24 would solidify h is opinion . I'd like to know
25 what the opinion is. That's all .
52
1 THE COURT : I -- I -- I don ' t know that I
2 hea rd that - -
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No .
4 THE COURT : - - term " solidify " opinion .
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well , Judge , I - - I'm
6 not saying that that ' s what Mr . Heintz said , but
7 I certa i n l y b elieve t he State was asking
8 Mr . Heintz abou t what it was that was , uh , the
9 bias in the back of his mind , and he indicated it
10 was this confession , and t he comment , I believe ,
11 was if the confession comes out , um , that
12 wou ld - -
13 THE COURT : And I'm not --
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : -- that would --
15 THE COURT : -- sure what you meant --
16 Sorry , I don' t mean t o be talk -- I ' m n ot sure
17 what you mean by " t h e confession comes out ." Do
18 you mean it comes out of the case or it 's
19 introduced as part of the evidence?
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge , I'm referring
21 to what Mr . Heintz said .
22 THE COURT: I -- I
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : If you want, I ' ll ask
24 h i m more questions, but --
25 THE COURT : Why don ' t you just recast
53
1 your last question and --
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine.
3 THE COURT: -- see how it comes out.

4 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Uh, Mr. Heintz, I'm sorry.
5 When you mean, "the confession comes out ," if you
6 were told in trial by some witness or some
7 testimony about the confession, that's what you
8 mean by, "if it comes out?"
9 A Right.
10 Q So if testimony in trial were about this
11 confession you ' ve read about, that would have an
12 impact on your opinion? Is that what you're
13 saying?
14 A Yes. I -- if it's presented in the trial , I don ' t

15 know how -- that's something that has to be
16 considered.
17 Q That's true. And I'm not saying you shouldn't
18 consider anything at trial, but your opi nion now
19 is the -- the issue?
20 A Um-hmm.
21 Q You indicated you have bias somewhere in the back
22 of your mind that you're not -- you don't know if
23 you're able to separate that opinion from what

24 the Judge had explained to you? That - - I think
25 it ' s paraphrasing what you had - - how you
54
1 answered the Judge's question. And my question
2 is , what is that opinion that you can't separate?
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, again, I
4 don't mean to be obstructious (phonetic), but
5 maybe I'm wrong here, and you guys can tell me if
6 I 'm wrong, but I got the impression that he was
7 troubled by information which was released in the
8 media, which may not be introduced in evidence,
9 and -- and whether he wou ld be able to set i t
10 aside. That seemed to be what the -- Mr., um,
11 Heintz was struggling with.
12 So -- and I think he answered that. At
13 least that 's why -- how I understood the -- the
14 bias, the back of the mind, is what 's out t h ere
15 in the public doma i n that may not be in the
16 evidence that would be problematic.
17 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Heintz, is is t hat
18 an accurate characterization of how you feel?
19 JUROR HEINTZ: I agree with wha t that
20 gentleman just said. It -- it's hard to ignore
21 something you know already.
22 THE COURT: All right. With -- with --
23 with that said , Mr. Fremgen.
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Thank you.
25 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) So you were -- yo u could
55
1 be able to , knowing al l that -- what you already
2 know from the publicity, you can ind i cat e now
3 that Mr . Dassey i s innocen t?
4 A I don't know that. And tha t ' s why we're here , is it
5 not?
6 Q Well, one of the instructions the Judge wil l
7 explain to all jurors, no t -- not just you ,
8 Mr. Heintz, but --
9 A Um-hmm .
10 Q -- to all jurors , is that you must presume
11 Mr. Dassey is innocent. The Judge was describing
12 a summary of that just a couple minutes ago t hat
13 you must presume Mr. Dassey innocent --
14 A Um-hmm . I --
15 Q at all times
16 A understand that.
17 Q during t he trial. And that's my ques t ion .
18 Despite what you have heard, despite what is i n
19 the recesses of your mind, you can presume
20 Mr. Dassey innocent right now?
21 A That -- No t sure how to answer that. Tha t -- that
22 I understand t hat is how you have to approach a
23 trial . That it ' s
24 Q Can you
25 A Yeah . I ' m struggling with how to a n swer that .
56
1 Q Sure .
2 A Can you rephrase the question?

3 Q I'll I'l l try. Um, despite what you mi ght
4 have read in the Sta te Journal , or on the
5 internet, or other g lobal news --
6 A Um-hmm.
7 Q -- and what
8 A Yes.
9 Q you've heard , and you mentioned t hat part of

10 it was the topic of con fessions and recant i ng
11 confessions
12 A Um-hmm.
13 Q -- despi te all of that, righ t this minute , and
14 you ' ll be i nstructed throughout the tr i al you
15 must presume Mr. Dassey is i nnocent , can you
16 reconci le those two? Ca n you do t hat knowing
17 what you know?
18 A I would have difficulty doing that at thi s moment .
19 Q Okay. Than k you. There are no right or wrong
20 answers, just true answers. Thank you .
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Not hing else, Judge .
22 THE COURT: All right . Uh , you,
23 Mr . Heintz , may accompany the judi cial assis ta nt .

24 Thank you.
57
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge, I would ask
3 that this juror be struck for cau se , um , just --
4 just based on his que - - answer to the question
5 that he ' d have a d ifficult time presuming
6 Mr . Dassey innocent .
7 THE COURT : Any response , Mr . , uh , Fallon?
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: It ' s a diff icult
9 response b ecause I ' m not a hundred percent
10 convinced he needs to be e xcused for cau se .
11 It - - it -- he would -- uh, admittedly, he was
12 equivocal, uh , but in answer to , uh , the last t wo
13 quest ions, you talked about the presumption of
14 innocence and, um, he -- he said, yeah , I believe
15 I can , and h is whol e concern was what ' s in t h e
16 publ ic domain that may not be introduced in
17 evidence , and if - - and if the e vidence comes in,
18 t he n he's -- he ' s more relaxed in cons ideration
19 of the evidence , and I think that has to be t he
20 context in which you e valuate those responses .
21 I'm -- I ' m not convinced that he must be
22 excu sed , um, because he can 't presume , um, the
23 the -- the presump -- can ' t fo llow the
24 presumption of i nnocence i nstruction .
25 THE COURT : I think t he -- I think t h e
58
1 inability to -- to attach the preswnption of
2 innocence at this point to the defendant is -- is
3 fatal to this, uh, gentleman's service on the jury.
4 Thus, I'm going to grant the, uh, for cause motion,
5 the strike motion for cause.
6 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: This is Juror No.
7 31, Gordana Miletic.
8 THE COURT: Is it pronounced Miletic?
9 JUROR MILET IC : Yes. We ll, it's
10 Miletic.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 JUROR MILETIC: But we do pronounce it
13 Miletic
15 JUROR MILETIC: -- h ere .
16 THE COURT: All right. If you'd be
17 seated there, ma'am.
19 BY THE COURT :
20 Q Uh, this , as I me ntioned in the courtroom, is
21 cal led individual voir dire, and I 'm goi ng to ask
22 you some questions . There ma y b e some moderate
23 followup from the the attorneys .
24 Thi s , as you know, is the case vs. , u h,
25 Brenda n Dass e y , a nd it has received an a wful lot
59
1 of publicity. Uh, have you heard anything about
2 this case in the media?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q From what source did you learn whatever it is
5 that you've heard?
6 A Well, first started with my son . Uh , a few years

7 ago, um, just before April, he was released . My son
8 volunteered for the, uh, Innocence Project , so I
9 became aware of the problem. And soon after in April
10 he was released, so I really got interested in the
11 case. So I have been following i t -- following it
12 through Wisconsin State Journal and the local
13 television.
14 Q Have you, as a result of what you heard, formed
15 any opinions about the guilt or innocence of
16 Brendan Dassey?
17 A Not about him.
18 Q All right. Not about Brendan Dassey?
19 A No.
20 Q You're making a distinction here, and -- and you
21 haven't said this , but I'm going to surmise,
22 between Steven Avery and --
23 A You' re right.
24 Q -- and Brendan Dassey? But you formed no opinion
25 one way or the another, guilt or innocence --
60
1 A No .
2 Q -- about Mr. Dassey? Have you discussed this
3 particular case with anyone else?
4 A No.
6 killed by acci -- by accident or otherwise?
7 A No.
8 Q Have you, a family member, or a close friend ,
9 ever killed anyone accidentally or otherwise?
10 A No.
11 Q Have you -- if you are called to serve as a juror
12 in this case , can you disregard anything you may
13 have heard or read in the media , or from any
14 source, and decide this case based only on the
15 e vidence presented in court?
16 A Um, I have a little bit of a concern . I have Ph . D.
17 in child development , and I ' m just wondering if some
18 of my previous knowledge might affect my decision in
19 thinking -- making of this case .
20 I have also worked with visually
21 impaired for number of years , and they always
22 have , uh, other impairment , and we -- we have
23 discussed that .
24 Q Well , every juror brings to the jury box his or
25 her own -- his or her own personal knowledge .
61
1 What -- what I want to know is , uh , if you can
2 disregard a n ything that you may have read or
3 heard about t his case in the medi a, or from any
4 other source , and decide the case based only on
5 the evidence produced in court?
6 A I believe so .
7 Q Have you, or a ny close friend , or relative , ever
8 been the vict i m of a crime, or witness to a
10 or not?
11 A No.
12 Q How about , uh -- I ' ll -- I' ll be more specific .
13 How about a sexual assault? Have you , or a
14 friend , or a family member --
15 A No.
17 will be instructed that Mr . Dassey is presumed
19 any o ff ense , unless and until the State has
23 this instruction in reaching a verdict?

24 A I believe so .
25 Q I f you were selected as a juror , you will also be
62
1 instructed t hat Mr. Dassey has a constitutional
2 r ight not to testify in the case. And that if he
3 decides not to tes tify , you cannot hold that

4 against him . Rather , you must base your decision
5 sole ly on the evidence introduced at trial. If
6 you were selected as a juror , could you follo w

7 that instruction?
8 A Yes, I can.
9 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon , any questions?

10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Just , uh , one .
12 BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
13 Q Um , good morning.
14 A Good morning .
15 Q Becau se your son volunteered for the Innocence
16 Project
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- um , and based on the information that you
19 learned about , um, these cases from the media
20 and , perhaps , your son , I mean , did you have any
21 opinions on Mr. Avery t hat might a ff ect your
22 evaluation of the evidence in this case?
23 A We ll, um, I actually , um -- Mr . Avery said tha t he

24 was set up , and it was very hard for me to believe
25 that , uh, given the crime that was committed , I j u st
63
1 cannot imagine that anyone would want to hurt a
2 person so badly to get back at somebody else . So
3 when he was found guilty , it was not hard for me to
4 accept t hat .
5 Q All right . So then we're clear then, so
6 you 1 re reasonably sure you won 1 t let those
7 feelings or thoughts affect your deliberations on
8 the evidence that we introduce i n this case?
9 A I believe so .
10 Q Okay. Thanks .
11 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, anything?
12 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No . Thank you.
13 THE COURT : All r ight . Thanks much . You
14 may step down . You can wait in the anteroom for
15 just a second --
16 JUROR MILETIC : Okay.
17 THE COURT: wi t h the -- the -- the ,
18 uh, legal assistant .
19 (Wherein juror is escorted out.)
20 THE COURT: Mr . Fallon?
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: No motion .
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No motion .
23 THE COURT : Court has no motion.
24 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror No. 33 ,
25 Timothy Hughes.
64
1 THE COURT : Hi , Mr . Hughes. Be seated .
2 J UROR HUGHES: Hi.
3 THE COURT : Good morning, again, to you.
4 JUROR HUGHES: Morning .
6 BY THE COURT :
7 Q This is, I mentioned in the courtroom, would be
8 call ed individual voir dire, and I'm going to ask
9 you a series of questions . Counsel may have some

10 brief follow-up questions for you .
11 Uh , you ' re aware this is the case of
12 State vs . Brendan Dassey , and i t's received a

13 s ubstantial amount of publicity. Have you heard
14 anything about the case?

15 A Yes .
17 you heard?
18 A Te levis ion .
19 Q As a result of what you heard , have you formed

20 any opin ions regarding t he guilt or innocence of
21 this defendant?
22 A Not much of a one .
23 Q Wel l , does not muc h of a --

24 A I --
25 Q -- one -- much o f a one mean no or --
65
1 A I don ' t really know much about it , uh, to be h onest .
2 Um , I know it 's connected with the Steven Avery and
3 uh , uh, t h ing there , a n d I know more about that.
4 Q You understand , though, t h at this is a separate
5 case?
6 A Yes. Yeah . Uh --
7 Q Based o n that fact , have you -- Based on the f act
8 that this is separate , you've heard something
9 about it , have you formed an opinion --
10 A No.
11 Q -- with respect to this --
12 A No .
13 Q You ' re going to have to -- she takes all of what
14 we --
15 A No.
16 Q -- say down . All right . Have you dis cussed this
17 case with anyone?
18 A Yes .
19 Q Uh , with whom?
20 A With my wife and my employer.
21 Q Uh, has - - has or have those discussions resulted
22 in you forming an opinion about this case?
23 A No.
24 Q Have you had a family member or friend who was
25 killed acciden tally or otherwise?
66
1 A Yes . My brother was killed accidentally.
2 Q How long ago was that?
3 A 1980.
4 Q Uh, there was -- was there a criminal prosecution
5 as --
6 A No.
7 Q -- a result?
8 A No. It was an accident .
9 Q All right . What kind of accident?
10 A Uh, he was a garbage truck, um , driver, and he got
11 out of his truck, and it ran him over and crushed
12 him.
13 Q All right . Has that in any way, positive or
14 negative, affected your attitude toward law
15 enforcement authorities?
16 A No.
17 Q We -- we talked a little bit before about forming
18 opinions. Um , would you be able to set aside
19 anything that you -- you've heard or read about
20 this case and judge the case solely bas e d on the
21 evidence presented in court?
22 A I believe I can.
23 Q Have you , or any close friend or relative, ever
24 been the victim of or witness to any kind of
25 crime , whether i t was reported to law e n forcemen t
67
1 or not?
2 A No.
3 Q Specifi cally, have you or a close friend or
4 relative been t h e victim of a sexual assault?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you, a close friend , or family member , ever
7 been charged wi t h a crime?
8 A I was arrested, uh , a month ago for s lapping my
9 daughter , and , uh , the c h arges were dropped .
10 Q All right. Other than that?
11 A That was it.
12 Q If you're selected as a juror in the case, i n
13 this case , you wil l be instructed that Brendan
14 Oassey is presumed innocent and that he cannot be
15 found guilty of any offense , unless and until the
16 State has proven each element of each offense
17 beyond a reasonable doubt. If you were selected
18 as a juror in t his case , would you be able to
19 follow that instruction?
20 A Yes.
21 Q There also will be , uh , another instruction that
22 say s Mr . Dassey has a constitutiona l right not to
23 testify in this case , and that if he decides n ot
24 to testify , you cannot hold that against him.
25 Rather , you must bas e your decision solel y on t he
68
1 evidence introduced at trial. If you were
2 selected as a juror in t h is case , would you be
3 able to follow that instruction --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- in reaching a verdict?
6 THE COURT : Al l right . Mr . Fallon, any
7 questions?
8 ATTORNEY FALLON : Uh , just two .
9 VOIR DI RE EXAMINATION
11 Q Um , sir , you i ndicated you had some discussion
12 with your employer? Is that regarding , uh , your
13 ability to , um , maintain income if you were
14 selected as a juror in this case?
15 A Yes , we talked about
16 Q All right . And wil l you suffer any financial
17 hardships , sir , if , in fact , yo u are selected and
18 are off of work for two weeks?
19 A No . The postal service will pay my , uh , salary and
20 I ' d be reimbursed .
21 Q All right . So there ' s not a concern in that
22 regard?
23 A No .
24 Q Great. All right . Urn , now , you said you were ,
25 urn, unfortunately, arrested a month ago for
69
1 sla pping your daughter? Uh, how old was your
2 daughter?
3 A She 's 17 now. She was almost 16 a nd --
4 Q Almost 16 --
5 A Uh , it happened in February . Uh , February 24 she
6 turned , uh -- so it's been a litt le bit more than a
7 month. Uh , I I remember , uh , t hree days after I
8 g ot out of jail - - I was in jail for 1 2 hour s , and,
9 uh, three or fo ur days afte r I got out she turned 17 .
10 Q Okay . Now, um, I would imagine that wasn't
11 exactly, um, much fun at all?
12 A No .
13 Q And, um , do you fee l that the, uh, case was
14 adequately , uh , investigated before your arrest?
15 A Yes . I admitted doing it , a nd they said it was
16 automatic, you can' t strike a child, and I understand
17 tha t .
18 Q Okay . Um, so you think that you were , um ,
19 handled , um, uh, appropriately and professionally
20 by t he law enforcement officers?
21 A Yes. The pol i ce officers were nice , and the -- I
22 came to the county jail h ere, and , uh , I was with ,
23 u h , seven other inmates in a holding cel l, and it was
24 a little shocking , and , um , I ' ll n ever hit her again .
25 It -- it -- it deterred me t hat much , but ...
70
1 Q Right . Okay . So , then, I guess my last
2 questi on, s ir , is there anyth ing about that
3 experi ence o f -- of having b e en a r re s ted and
4 spending a a short stay in the jail here , urn ,
5 is there anything about that that really makes
6 you wonder as to whether you can fairly evaluate
7 t he testimony of -- o f t he offi ce rs invol ved in
8 th i s case or even be a juror in this case?
9 A I don ' t think so. I -- I don ' t think it -- it would
10 affect , um, being impartial.
11 Q Okay . Thank you .
12 THE COURT : Mr. Fremgen , any questions?
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Just a few .
16 Q Mr . Hughes , in regards to t he i ncident with your
17 daughter , did you have to hire an attorney?
18 A No .
19 Q When you say it was dropped , did you have to meet
20 with the prosecutor ' s office?
21 A No . They just came to the jail cell , and they said ,
22 you ' re free to go , and I called , uh , the dist ri ct
23 attorney , and they said , uh , the charges were
24 dropped .
25 Q You ' d indicated t hat , um, you don ' t - - you
71
1 haven't formed an opinion in regards to
2 Mr. Dassey; correct?
3 A Yeah . I said not much of a one . I -- I don't know
4 that much about it.
5 Q But you ' d indicated t hat you have discuss e d this
6 case with your wife?
7 A Yes, I did .
8 Q Uh, did you guys discuss whether you fel t he was
9 guilty or innocent?
10 A Not really . We were just , you know -- Di d you hear
11 anything? Did you hear anything about the tria l or
12 anything? And there hasn 't been much on , really ,
13 about it , so we didn ' t d i scuss much about it , no .
14 Q Was that more so after you received your summons
15 that you might h ave
16 A Yeah. When we
17 Q to
18 A when I got the summons , we talked about it , and ,
19 uh , I didn't even realize , uh, who Brendan was at
20 first. And then later on in the questionnaire it
21 dawned on me , you know , and then I did hear something
22 about i t on TV , but not too much . Uh , just that the
23 trial was going be taking place and -- and they were
24 going to use , uh, people from Dane County.
25 Q I appreciate that . Thank you.
72
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No thing else.
2 THE COURT: All right. Thanks much . You

3 may step down . You can wait for just a moment in
4 the anteroom . The antechamber .

7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No objection.
8 THE COURT: All right . Uh, he can be
9 escorted to the jury box. Bring the next one in,
10 please .
11 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is number 35,
12 Heather Rasmussen.
13 THE COURT : Morning , again, Ms . Rasmuss en .
15 BY THE COURT :
16 Q Uh , as I mentioned, this is individual voir dire.
17 I ' m going t o ask you some questions. Counsel may
18 have some brief follow-up questions for you .
19 A All right.
20 Q Uh, this is a case entitled State vs. Brendan
21 Dassey , and it has rece -- received , uh, a fair
22 amount of publicity . Ha ve you heard anything
23 about this case?
24 A I don ' t watch the lo -- local news . I've heard
25 nothing.
73
1 Q So you know nothi ng about this case or the issues
2 in this case?
3 A Only what was told to me i n the, uh, questionna ire I
4 filled out .
5 Q Beyond that , nothing?
6 A Nothing.
7 Q So, then, if I were to ask you if you formed an
8 opinion as to his guilt or innocence, your answer
9 would be --
10 A No .
12 killed accidental l y or otherwise?
13 A Yes. My , uh , younger brother was killed in a car
14 accident in November of 2005 .
15 Q All right. I think you said in your
16 q uestionnaire there wa s , uh -- or you implied
17 there was a charge for negligent homicide in
18 there; is that right?
19 A Yes , that's correct.
20 Q And at -- at this point the -- t he defendant has
21 not yet come up for trial; is that right?
22 A Uh, the pretrial was done in December , but she ha s
23 not been up for trial yet.
24 Q Does that affect in any way, either positively or
25 negatively , the way, n umber one, you fee l about
74
1 law enforcement?
2 A Not at all.
3 Q Uh, about defendants, genera lly? Does that
4 predispose you one way or another?
5 A I don't feel so . No. I -- I really haven't had much
6 interaction with it . I've been kind of out of
7 contact with my family since then.
9 ever killed anyone accidenta lly or otherwise?
10 A No.
11 Q If you're selected as a -- a juror in t hi s case ,
12 you will be instructed that Brendan Dassey is
15 has proved each element of each offense b e y ond a
17 juror in this case, would you be able to follow
18 that instruction?
19 A Yes, I would.
20 Q Uh, likewi se , if you were selected as a juror,
21 you're going to be instructed that Mr . Dassey has
22 a constitutional right not to te s tify, and that
23 if he does not testify at a trial, you cannot
24 hold that against him. But , rather , you ' re going
25 to h a v e to base your decision solely on the
75
1 evidence t ha t you hear at the trial . Could you
2 follow that instruction?
3 A Yes, I could.
5 ATTORNEY FALLON: No questions.
8 Q Ms . Rasmussen, if I may, I just want to follow up
9 a little bit about the answer to your -- to the

10 question about your brother having been killed?
11 A Go ahead .
12 Q Are you -- were you close to your brother?

13 A Um, I was away at college, and I hadn't been close to
14 him growing up . We had just started spending a
15 little more time together , so we were getting closer ,
16 but I wouldn ' t say I was horribly close to him.

17 Q Now, I would imagine this is -- was somewhat of a
18 horrific news to hear that your brother
19 A It was not pleasant news to hear, no.
20 Q And I 'm also going to imagine -- I hope I -- I
21 ass ume correctly, that you -- you certainly don ' t
22 have any strong , positive feelings for the pe rson
23 that did this , either , to your brother?

24 A I know it was an accident , so I -- I -- I don ' t hold
25 it against her .
76
1 Q Would sitting in t h e trial whe re there is going
2 to be, obvious ly , test imony about a death,
3 homicide, um, would that trigger any of the
4 memories of your losing your brother?
5 A I've thought abou t that a lot leading up to this , and
6 I do n't think that it wou ld affect my ability to
7 serve as a juror.
8 THE COURT : Any f u rther quest ions,
9 Mr. Fremgen?
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , Judge . Thank
11 you, very much.
12 THE COURT : All right. You may step down .
13 Thank you , very much .
14 (Wherein j uror is escorted out . )
15 THE COURT : Mr. Fallon, any motion?
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: None .
17 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen , any motion?
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, Judge .
19 THE COURT : All right . She will then be
20 seated in the box. Om, we ' l l try one more witness
21 b efore we - - or one more juror before we break .
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: This will be the only
23 one that -- righ t now, but there will be oth er
24 ones who make comments that -- like , for
25 instance ...
77
1 (Wherein juror is brought in . )
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I don ' t want to do it
3 in front of jur or , that --
4 THE COURT : I understand . Is your comment
5 applicable to this --
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Yes , this is --
7 THE COURT : Al l r i ght . Uh , you're going to
8 be seated and you ' re going to arise . We're going
9 to -- why don ' t - - Would you take this juror,
10 please , to the anteroom?
11 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Sure .
12 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen wants to make
13 a -- some discuss -- or have some discussion
14 outside the -- the presence .
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : The reas
17 THE COURT : Mr . Fr emgen .
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : The reason I wanted
19 to bring this up, Judge , we -- we spoke in front
20 of , uh, Juror No . 30 , Mr . Heintz , and I don ' t
21 t hin k that was appropriate to be , basical ly ,
22 argu ing a b o u t , fi r st , the witnes s in front of
23 or the juror in front of us , and this witness
24 or -- excuse me -- juror , I believe , is going to
25 be kind of similar .
78
1 She made commen ts in her , uh , juror
2 questionnai r e that , uh -- may think he ' s already
3 gui l ty , um , worr i some , and I cer ta inl y want to
4 delve into some of that . And rather than --
5 if -- if we ' re going to have any d iscussions
6 about the questions being inappropriate , I would
7 prefer we don ' t have t hat discussion in front of
8 the juror while we ' re sitti ng here questioning
9 the juror at the same time.
10 THE COURT : Well , uh , this process is
11 cumbersome at best . Uh , it could go on forever .
12 Obviously , if ther e -- if I thought there were
13 something that wou ld have any kind of serious impact
14 on the -- on the juror , uh , in -- in the form of a
15 question or an objection or anything else , I
16 woul d I woul d excu se the juror to the ante r oom .
17 But I with Mr . Hei ntz , I didn ' t feel that what
18 was said there was other than appropriate . I --
19 Mr . Fallon? Uh --
20 ATTORNEY FALLON : No . I -- I thought
21 I thought i t went all right . I -- I -- I -- I
22 didn't see -- from our perspective , everything
23 was okay , I think . But , I mean , looking at it
24 from another -- I was wat c hing the juror as we
25 were having our discussion --
79
1 THE COURT: Right.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: amongst the three
3 of us, and it didn't seem to cause him a n y , uh,
4 uncomfort or unrest . And that ' s my number one
5 consideration is that we don ' t somehow
6 contaminate him or make that juror uncomfortable ,

7 and I -- I -- I was comfortable with what
8 happened.
9 THE COURT: We ll, what it was, Mr. Fremgen ,

10 and -- a nd perhaps I'm wrong about this -- really,
11 it went to the form of the question . Uh, I thought
12 at one point the the question was confusing or
13 compound , and -- and I -- I don ' t know that it it
14 -- it we nt to, uh -- to his answers .
15 So, obviously , if we -- we have
16 something t hat -- that is going to be
17 discomforting to -- to a juror, we're -- we 're
18 going to -- going to move i t out . But , uh , voir
19 dire is -- is an effort to find out attitudes ,
20 and you have an opportunity , as does the State .
21 So --
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I - - I understand
23 that. I don ' t have a problem with that. I don't

24 think that voir dire is the appropriate place for
25 the juror to see the attitudes of the couns e l and
80
1 the Court, how they interact , though ,
2 n ecessarily .
3 THE COURT : I 'll keep that in mind . All
4 right . Uh , next j uror.
5 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror No. 4 3 ,
6 Rachel Tedder .
7 THE COURT : Good morning , again ,
8 Ms . Tedder. Why don ' t you be seated there?
10 BY THE COURT :
11 Q This is -- I mentioned to you, as wel l as the
12 others in the courtroom, is individual voir dire .
13 I'm going to be asking you a series of questions .
14 Counsel may have some follow-up questions.
15 Uh, this is , of course, the S tate vs.
16 Brendan Dassey . It ' s received a fair amount of
17 publicity. Have you heard anything about this
18 case?
19 A I have . Yes .
20 Q From what source did you learn whatever it is you
21 h eard?
22 A Um , the te l e vision when - - when it first happened .
23 And , um , I ' m on the interne t e very day, so I do, you
24 know, read the n e ws. I h ave h eard about the case.
25 Q All righ t . Um , based on what you ' ve - - you've
81
1 heard, have you formed any opinions about the
3 A Yes, I feel like I have to a certain degree . Om
4 Q We'll get to -- we'll get to that a little bit
5 more in a moment, but would you be able to set
6 those opinions aside if you were on the jury and
7 judge this case solely on the e vidence as it 's
8 presented in court?
9 A Yes .
10 Q All right. Have you discussed this case with
11 anyone?
12 A Yes. I mean, just whatever's on TV and reading about
13 it at the time, yes, I've discussed it with others.
14 Q Are these discussions in passing or are they
15 in-depth discussions?
16 A Not in depth. In passing.
17 Q Based on those discussions, did you form an
18 opinion regarding the guilt or innocence of the
19 defendant?
20 A Um, not completely, no.
21 Q Well, whatever -- whatever opinion you had --
22 Well, and I -- and I'll ask you, what -- do you
23 have some provisional, some preliminary opinion
24 that you've formed?
25 A Um, yes. I feel -- I feel in my h eart that maybe I
82
1 have . I -- you know , I have given i t some thought ,
2 and whatever I 've learned about it , I guess I believe
3 I have a, you know -- a feeling about it .
4 Q And that feeling is?
5 A Guilty .
6 Q That that he may be guilty?
7 A Yes .
8 Q And you've described it as a feeling. I ' ve
9 described it as an opinion . Would you be able to
10 set that aside -- again , I 'm going to ask you
11 this -- and judge the case solely on the evidence
12 that ' s presented in the . court and the
13 instructions the Court gives you?
14 A Yes .
16 killed accidentally or otherwise?
17 A No.
18 Q Have you -- have you , a family member , or a close
19 friend , ever killed anyone accidentally or
20 otherwi se?
21 A No .
22 Q If you ' re called upon to serve as a juror , can
23 you disregard anything that you've heard, or read
24 in t h e media , or on the internet , or from any
25 other source , and decide the case solely based on
83
1 the evidence?
2 A I can certainly try, yes, abso lutely .
3 Q Well , try is one thi ng . Can you do it? Do you
4 believe in your heart
5 A Yes, I believe
6 Q you can?
7 A in my heart I can .
8 Q Have you , or any close friend, or relative, ever
9 been the victim of , a witness to , any kind of
11 or not?
12 A No .
13 Q Specifically, have you or a close friend ever
14 been a victim of a sexual assault?
15 A No .
16 Q If you were selected as a juror in this case, you
17 would be instructed that Brendan Dassey is
22 juror , would you be able to follow that
23 instruction?
24 A Yes .
25 Q Uh , l ikewise , if you were selected as a juror,
84
1 you would be instructed that Brendan Dassey has a
2 constitut ion al righ t not to tes t ify in this case ,
3 and that if he decides not to testify , you can ' t
5 your decision solely on the evidence that 1 s
6 presented in court . Could you follow that
7 instruction as well?
8 A Yes.
9 THE COURT : Counsel?
10 ATTORNEY FALLON : Uh
11 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon ?
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: At this poi nt I do
13 not . I will wait for Counsel . Uh , I don't have
14 any questions right now. I ' m accepting the
15 Court ' s colloquy .
16 THE COURT : We 're doing rebuttal here?
17 ATTORNEY FALLON : I 1 m - - I 'm
18 anticipating an argument , so ...
19 THE COURT: Go ahead. Mr . Fremgen .
22 Q Ms ., uh, Tedder is it?
23 A Um-hmm .
24 Q You ' d indicated t hat in your heart you feel that
25 he is guilty, but you can set that aside if
85
1 that ' s the instruction of the Court ; correct?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Do you believe Mr . Dassey , r i ght now, to be
4 innocent?
5 A It hasn ' t been proven . No. No , it - - I have -- the
6 evidence hasn ' t been presented to me . Yet, if it

7 were presented , I'd try to make a decision from the
8 evidence .
9 Q Do you believe that it would be necessary to
10 prove he ' s innocent or just prove that he's
11 guilty?
12 A That he ' s innocent?
13 Q Now , one of the instructions the Judge will give
14 to all of the jurors was - - I think summarizing
15 here, was that presumption of innocence and
16 burden of proof mean that he doesn ' t have to
17 prove he ' s i nnocent . Do you understand that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q But as a juror you think that that should be --
20 that he should have to prove that?
21 A Um, I ' m sorry , my mind is get jumbled . Um --
22 Q I can rephrase.
23 A Yes , would you rephrase the question?
24 Q Let me ask you it a different way . Maybe
25 A Okay .
86
1 Q -- it will be a little easier . You indicated
2 that you can follow the instruction of the Court ,
3 and one of the instructions is you have to
4 presume that Brendan is innocent?
5 A Um-hmm.
6 Q Another instruction later would be that the
7 State, the prosecutors , are the only ones that
8 have to prove anything . They have to prove
9 they would have to prove guilt beyond a
10 reasonable doubt. That ' s the instruction .
11 A Um-hmm.
12 Q There's no instruction that says the defendant
13 has to prove he ' s innocent . Is that okay with
14 you? Can you --
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. You can set aside your feelings in your
17 heart that he ' s guilty and and follow those
18 instructions?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Um, and -- and may -- I might have missed
21 your answer . The Judge had asked about trying to
22 set aside the publicity, the things you've read
23 already? You said you would try?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. And -- and you may have clarified that --
87
1 that you will do t hat? You 're not going to just
2 try? You will?
3 A Yes .
4 Q I'm sorry.
5 A That's okay .
6 Q I might have mi ssed your answer on that. One
7 last question, and kind of i nvolves, again, the
8 issue about presumpt ion of innocence. Do you
9 feel that , for you as a juror , it would be
10 necessary for Brendan to testify and say he
11 didn' t do it?
12 A Um, no.
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have nothing else .
14 THE COURT : All right . Uh , you may take
15 her to the anteroom.
16 (Wherein j uro r is escorted out.)
17 THE COURT: Any motions , gent lemen?
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: There's no motion from
19 the State.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen?
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I - - Judge , I - - I
22 think it's a real close call, but I still would
23 ask that the Court consider striking her for
24 cause for the concerns that she has, or - - or her
25 comments of bei ng -- feeling in her -- her heart
88
1 that the defendant is guilty , uh , despite the
2 comment to the Court that she could set aside her
3 feelings a nd follow the law as instructed by the
4 Court .
5 I still think that it draws upon the
6 issue, uh, tha t the defendant is entitled to an
7 impartial juror who's unequivoca l in their
8 ability to be fair , and I think t hat implies that
9 the y're unequivocal in their ability to set
10 aside , or not to have preconceived feelings . And
11 she ' s saying , I have this feeling in my heart
12 that he's guilty , yet I ' l l set it aside. I'm not
13 so sure I 'm convinced that she can do so .
14 THE COURT : Wel l , people come wi th
15 opinions . We attempt to find a jury that ,
16 ult imately , is impartial . I take this juror at her
17 word that she could set aside whatever it i s that
18 she may have felt. Thus , I 'll deny your mo tion and
19 she can be seated in the box . We'll wa it -- we ' ll
20 take about a ten-minute recess .
21 (Recess had at 10:39 a.m.)
22 (Reconvened at 10:55 a . m.)
23 THE COURT : All right . We'll go back on
24 the record . Bring the next juror in , please?
25 J UDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is Juror No .
89
1 44, Leah Shea .
2 THE COURT : Hi , Ms . Shea . Be seated .
4 BY THE COURT:
5 Q As you may recall my telling you a few moments
6 ago, this is called individual voir dire. I'm
7 going to ask you a couple of questions and then
8 counsel may or may not have some follow-up
9 questions to ask you .
10 This case, as you're aware, is State vs .
11 Brendan Dassey. It's received a substantial
12 amount of publicity . Have you heard or read
13 anything about this case before coming here
14 today?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And from what source did you learn whatever it is
17 you learned?
18 A Um, I've read it in the newspaper, mostly the
19 Wisconsin State Journal, and I've seen i t on TV.

20 Q All right. Based on what you've read and you've
21 heard , have you formed any opinion as to this
22 defendant's guilt or innocence?
23 A No .
24 Q Have you discussed this case with anyone els e ?
25 A Um, not since getting my letter, but before that ,
90
1 with my family, I guess.
2 Q All r igh t . We re these lengthy discussions, in
3 depth
4 A No .
5 Q -- or just --
6 A No .
7 Q -- j us t in passing?
8 A Just in passing.
9 Q Oh , our court reporter is taking down what you

10 and I say , so
11 A Okay.
12 Q -- j ust don't try to anticipate the endi ng, just
13 wait until I do , okay?
14 A Okay .
15 Q Have you ever had a family member or a friend who
17 A No .
18 Q Have you , a fa mily member, or a close friend ,
20 A No.
21 Q If you're cal led upon to serve as a juror in this
22 case, can you disregard anyt hi ng you may have
23 read in the media or heard in t h e media about
24 this , from any source , and decide the case based
25 solely on the evide n ce in court?
91
1 A Yes .
2 Q Have you, or any close frie nd, or relative, ever
4 crime, whether it was reported to the police or
5 not?
6 A I had one friend who was sexually assaulted .
7 Q All right. That would have been my next
8 question.
9 A Oh.
10 Q You had a --
11 A Sorry .
12 Q -- friend who was sexually assaulted?
13 A Om-hmm.
14 Q Yes?
15 A Yes .
16 Q We have to say , yes, rather than um-hmm or

17 uh-huh.
18 A Okay.
19 Q All right. How long ago did this occur?
20 A A year.
21 Q Does that have any impact on the way you think
22 about the police?
23 A No .
24 Q Oh , does it have any -- any impact on anything?
25 A No. I just heard about it through another friend. I
92
1 wasn't with her at the time and she didn't really
2 discuss it with me.
3 Q So -- so as for details, you know very few , if
4 any?
5 A Very few.
6 Q All right. Have you , a close friend, or a family
7 member, ever been charged with a crime?
8 A No .
9 Q If you're selected as a juror in this case , you
10 will be instructed that Mr. Dassey's p r esumed
11 innocen t and that he cannot be found guilty of
12 any offense, unless and until the State has
14 reasonable doubt. Could you follow that
15 instruction?
16 A Yes .
17 Q Uh, li kewise , you'll be inst ru cted that under the
18 U. S . Constitution Mr. Dassey has a right not to
19 testify in this case, and that if he decides not
20 to testify , you can't hold that against him .
21 But, rather, you're going to have to find, based
22 only on the evidence that's presented in the
23 case , whether or not -- or what your verdict is.
24 Can you follow that instruction?
25 A Yes .
93
1 THE COURT : Mr. Fallon?
2 ATTORNEY FALLON : No questions.
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I just had one
5 question.
8 Q You ' re a student at the UW-Madison ?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Are you -- this going to be a problem for your
11 classes and tests if you're away from your
12 classes for two weeks? Upwards of two weeks or
13 more?
14 A Um , I spoke to all my professors, and they're wi l ling
15 to work with me , but I guess I would preferably
16 rather not miss it.
17 Q What -- what -- when are your fi nals ?
18 A They ' re May 13.
19 Q Okay.
20 A That -- that week .
21 Q Okay .
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I have nothing else .
23 THE COURT : All right . You may step down.
24 Thank you.
25 JUROR SHEA: Okay .
94
1 THE COURT: You're going to wa it for just a
2 moment in the antechamber here
3 JUROR SHEA: Okay.

4 THE COURT: -- with the -- with the
5 judicial ass is tant .

7 THE COURT: Motions from either s i de?
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: None.
10 THE COURT: All right . She will be seated
11 in the jury box. The next juror, please?
12 JUDICIAL ASS ISTANT: Juror No. 47 , La yne
13 Close.
14 THE COURT: Hi, Mr. Close . Would you be
15 seated t here , please?
16 JUROR CLOSE : Thank you .
18 BY THE COURT :
19 Q Uh , Mr. Close , as you heard me say , this was --
20 this is cal led indiv idual voir dire. I 'm going
21 to ask you some questions. After I ' m done ,
22 Counsel may or may not have a fe w brief questions
23 to fo llow up on what I ask you .
24 Uh, this is the case , as you know , State
25 vs . Brendan Dassey , a nd it ' s received a
95
1 substantial amount of publicity . Have you heard
2 anythi ng about this case?
3 A I've read multiple things i n the newspaper and seen
4 things on television about the case as it was
5 breaking , so to speak.
6 Q All right . Based on what you -- you ' ve heard or
7 read or seen , have you formed any opinions about
8 the guilt or innocence of Mr. Dassey?
9 A Um, initially, I had because one of the first t hings
10 that had come out within it was that there was a
11 confession involved , and at that point, obviously,
12 you allow that to set in your mind as a point of --
13 of -- of ending , so to speak , because it ' s a
14 confession .
15 Um, I had not at any point heard, um ,
16 about any, um, thing being rescinded, although I
17 had later, on television , heard that that had
18 been taken place . So then that changes your
19 whole perspective of the things , and then how do
20 you think about that in your own mind, not
21 knowing that you ' re ever going to be involved in
22 this , but simply as an interested person hearing
23 a news report.
24 Q Let me ask you this: Would you be able to set
25 aside any opin ion you might have, a nd, if you
96
1 were a juror , judge this case based only on the
2 evidence presented in court?
3 A That ' s something , s ince I got the information from
4 your office , I ' ve been wrestling with . Because you
5 make these decisions , uh, having heard things
6 earlier , and then can you go back objectively in your

7 own mind and remove what you previously t hought , urn,
8 and set yourse l f up , basical ly , as a blank slate .
9 And I think that I would be intelligent enough to be

10 able to do that, but I'm not sure that I have totally
11 able to erase a nythi ng from my mi nd that I may have
12 previously set up as something I ' v e heard .
13 So to answer your question , I guess I' m
14 not really sure. Urn, I'd like to think I could,

15 but I don ' t know .
16 Q Have you discussed thi s case with ot hers?

17 A Urn, init ially, yes . Um, when I was, uh, you know,
18 simply a person reading the news in the newspapers
19 and seen things , obviously , it -- it come -- becomes
20 a point of conversation wi th co-workers, with family
21 members.
22 Urn, since I got , uh , the information
23 that I would possibly be a juror involved in this

24 case, I have not said anything.
25 In fact, urn, in trying to inf orm my
97
1 employer of the fact that I may be gone for
2 awhile , having been called for jur y duty ,
3 obviously, they want to know , well , do you know
4 what you ' re involved with, and I have told them I
5 can't -- have been informed that, no , I can ' t
6 discuss even what case it is . So, uh , no , since
7 that point I have n ot discussed it with anyone ,
8 but prior to t h at I did , yes .
9 Q Based on those prior discussions, did you form
10 any opinion relating to the guilt or innocence of
11 this defenda n t?
12 A Initially , I did , because , obviously , I ' d heard that
13 there was going to be a -- testimony g i ven in the
14 previous trial regarding, um , information from that
15 confession , which is what we had heard , initially, in
16 new - - i n n e ws reports . So at t ha t point , yeah , I
17 had made it -- a -- an opinion about that .
18 Urn , and beyond that point, you know ,
19 then you you hear reports about, okay , there ' s
20 been a -- a recanting of that , and then you have
21 to rethink , now, how do I feel about that? And,
22 generally, you don ' t think very deeply about it ,
23 because you you don ' t think you ' re going to be
24 involved in it.
25 Um , at the point you find that you ' re
98
1 going to be involved in it , then you have to go
2 back and revisit everything. Okay, now, how do I
3 feel about that now? And , um , again, it's been
4 somewhat emotional to try and think , okay , can I
5 be objective about this? Can I n ot b e? I 've
6 already hea rd things , and you really wrestl e
7 with, okay, how objective am I , really?
8 And, um , I think t hat -- like I say, I
9 think that I -- I'd like to think that I ' m a bl e
10 to , but in the back of your mind , you still got
11 those -- thos e things that, okay, I made a
12 decision based on information previously . Ca n I
13 throw all t h at out? And can I do t hat? And,
14 again , I 'd like to t hink I can , but I could not
15 tell you, sitting here now, absolutely , that I am
16 absolutely positive, one hundred percent, t hat I
17 can say I can completely ignore everything
18 previous ly, and simply base th i ngs on what I'm
19 going to h ear now as a bl a nk slate .
20 Q Just a point of clarification . You mentioned
21 prior tri - - trial . You 're talking about State
22 vs. Steven Avery?
23 A Correct .
24 Q All ri ght. Have y ou had a family member or
25 frie nd who was ki lled accidentally or otherwi se?
99
1 A No .
2 Q Have you, a family member, or close friend, ever
3 killed anyone accidentally or other wise?
4 A Not that I ' m aware of.
5 Q Uh , I ' ll ask you , uh, sort of a followup to
6 something we did earlier , something we tal ked
7 about earlier, if you're called to serve as a
8 juror in this case , can you dis regard anything
9 you may have read or h eard in t h e media from any
10 source and dec ide this case based solely on the
11 evidence t hat is presented in the court and the
12 instructions that the Judge gives you regarding
13 the law?
14 A I would li ke to think I can .
15 Q All right . Uh, have you , or any close friend , or
16 relative, ever been the victim of or witness to
17 any kind o f crime, whether it was reported to law
18 enforcement authorities or not?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Uh , specifically?
21 A Um, some of the things I ' ve put in the questionnaire ,
22 my wi fe was , uh , raped as a as a , uh , young woman
23 working in a work environme nt . My sister , uh , was
24 raped when she was in grade school . Um, I guess --
25 well , it was - - it was sexual contact , but it was,
100
1 uh, unwanted . None of t hose were reported .
2 Um, I think those are the major ones
3 that might relate to t his.
4 Q But these were not reported a nd p rosecuted?
5 A No.
6 Q I -- does that -- do -- do these incidents that
7 you've just descri bed affect, in any way, your
8 at t itude toward allegations of sexual crimes?
9 A I don't think so.
10 Q You would treat them based on evidence that you
11 saw in a particular case ?
12 A Yeah . I mean, each cas e is an individual sit -- set
13 of situation. It shouldn't , uh -- you can 't make
14 inferences abou t one person ' s behavior based on
15 another one ' s .
16 Q Have you, a -- a c lose friend , or a family
17 member , ever been charged wi t h a crime?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And that is?
20 A Um, a number of years ago I , uh, pleaded no contest
21 to shoplifting.
22 Q Beyond that? I -- I --
23 A Felony-type charges you're referring to?
24 Q Well, you ' re -- what you' re talking abou t is
25 retail theft . I ' m not sure whether it was
101
1 charged as a municipal ordinance or under a --
2 A It was .
3 Q Okay . So that really isn ' t a crime .
4 A Okay .
5 Q Uh , anything other than that?
6 A Not that I'm aware of , no .
13 juror in this case , would you be abl e to follow
15 A Yes . I think so .
16 Q Likewise , if you were selected as a juror , you
17 understand that Mr . Dassey has a - - a right under
18 the United States Constitution not to testify if
19 he so chooses , and that if he decides not to
20 testify , you cannot hold that against him?
21 Rather , you must base your decision solely on the
22 evidence introduced at trial? If you were
23 selected as a juror , would you be able to follow
24 that instruction in reaching a verdict?
25 A I think so.
102
1 Q All right.
2 THE COURT: Uh, Mr. Fallon?
3 ATTORNEY FALLON : No ques tions.
4 THE COURT : Mr. Frerngen?
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Just a few , Judge .
7 BY MR. FREMGEN:
8 Q Uh , Mr. -- Mr. Close, uh -- and it may be just
9 more semantics -- when asked whether you could
10 follow the instructions about presumption of
11 innocence, and , uh , the fact that the defendant
12 need not testify, you said , you think so. Is
13 there something that you think , possibly, I may
14 not be able to fol l ow that instruction?
15 A Um, to the best of -- of my ability , I would like to
16 think that I can be objective about given the
17 situation and the criteria in which we are to judge
18 this. Urn, until you're in that situation, though ,
19 you don't know how you will react exactly.
20 So I 'm allowing that bit of wiggle-room,
21 so to speak, to say that I cannot predict exactly
22 how I will react to that, but I'd like to think
23 that I 'm obj -- objective enough to be able to
24 follow the criteria given as far as judgment on
25 the evidence presented.
103
1 Q So right now you can say Mr. Dassey ' s not --
2 Mr . Dassey is innocent?
3 A That is t he basis of our whole legal system .
4 Q Okay . And -- and you're okay with that?
5 A I'm okay with that .
6 Q When you were asked whether you could set aside
7 some of t he prior opinions that you formulated
8 due to , in part , the publicity that you've heard
9 or read , you said , I think I can , I ' m not sure?
10 A Um-hmm.
11 Q Is -- is there something about the -- the extent
12 of the publicity or - - or what the publicity was
13 that indicates to you that maybe you can ' t put
14 this aside? I I want to just find out some
15 more about that in your mind?
16 A Again , it ' s - - you - - you form opinions when you read
17 anything i n t he newspaper , see news reports about it ,
18 ass uming that what you are seeing is objectively
19 reported news .
20 Um , obviously , you don ' t think you ' re
21 go i ng to be involved with it . You ' re just an

22 outside observer , and , t hus , you're seeing these
23 things come into your mind . You form opinions on
24 anything and everything. Um , and whether I can

25 take and remove al l of those previous thoughts
104
1 that I've had about the opi n ions that I ' ve made,
2 t hrow them aside, and -- and look at things
3 objectively, total ly , I' d like -- like I say , I

4 think that I can do tha t, but I can't say
5 absolutely for certain , when I 'm in a situati on
6 such as this , that I can totally eliminate

7 everything that I've previous ly had as an
8 experience . Um
9 Q I don ' t -- I don ' t want you to t otally ignore
10 your prior experiences , because that you -- all
11 jurors should bring their prior experiences . But
12 in --
13 A Yes .
14 Q regards to th i s particular person, Mr . Dassey,
15 or the publicity that you indicated , can you set
16 that aside? Or are you still concerned t hat i t
17 may still be a p robl em to set that aside?
18 A Trying to be as truthful as possi ble , I think that
19 I ' m able to do that . I ' d like t o think I'm object i ve
20 enough to do that . But I ' m not going to e l iminat e
21 the fact that it has colored my opinion earlier , you
22 know, in in the -- in the publicity and the
23 coverage .
24 And that -- to say that that's not going
25 to be a factor involved in how I have fel t about
105
1 it in the past, and is that going to bleed into
2 what I am seeing, I'd like to think not. But I'm
3 not going to throw that out as saying, absolutely
4 positive, there's no way that this is ever going
5 to affect what I think and how I feel about it ,
6 um, because it's a part of the experience that

7 you know, that I've had prior to having -- to
8 know that I'm going to be invo lved in -- in doing
9 this sort of thi ng.
10 So it ' s , basically, just my way of

11 saying , you know, I -- I'm not going to
12 absolutely one hundred percent say that that's,
13 you know, how I can react, and that I 've

14 absolutely heard nothing about this , and it ' s not
15 going to color what I see , hear, and feel ,
16 because it -- it -- it very well may. It's just
17 life experiences.
18 But, again, to ramble around the

19 question , which is what I'm doing here, um, I 'd
20 like to think that I am objective enough that

21 I -- to be able to look at something and say ,
22 okay, this is the criteria you need to judge this
23 by, that's what's going to be involved, and I 'd
24 like to think that I can do that, yes.
25 Q One of the reasons we're doing this process is so
106
1 that some of the , uh, discussion that might be
2 considered embarrassing , won ' t be done in open
3 wi th all the ot her jurors , and I just want to ask
4 you a couple questions about what I -- I'm I
5 guess I ' m going to assume were not, obviously,
6 very positive experiences . You i ndicated you
7 pled no contest once to retail theft? Um
8 A True .
9 Q Did you when you ple d -- I ' m going to ask you
10 this : You pled no contest because you felt you
11 were guilty or just -- you were offered something
12 you just couldn ' t refuse?
13 A No , I knew I was gu ilty.
14 Q If if you had
15 A It was --
16 Q I ' m sorry .
17 A I ' m sorry. No . Go ahead .
18 Q If you hadn ' t been guilty , would you have pled
19 not guilty?
20 A Oh, definitely . If I felt that I was -- you know, if
21 I knew that I hadn ' t done it , certainl y .
22 Q The experience with -- you said your wife had
23 been sexual assau lted?
24 A Correct .
25 Q Was that something that you have talked to her
107
1 about in the past or is this something you know
2 about but you just don ' t have a lot of detail?
3 You bot h kept it ...
4 A Oh , no , it ' s been discussed in great detail . Urn, we
5 have very few things that we keep from each other as
6 far as secrets .
7 Q Now , this -- Obviously , you' ve heard the
8 instructions from the Judge ear lier . He read the
9 Information which indicated that Mr . Dassey ' s

10 charged with - - one of the three counts is , uh , a
11 sexual assault. And do you feel that having this
12 life experience , urn, involved with a person
13 that ' s very close to you, your wife , that you ' ll
14 be able to set that aside to some extent while

15 you ' re hearing ev -- evidence or testimony about
16 the sexual assault?

17 A Yes , because I think t hat t he -- you know , you -- you
18 can ' t infer one person ' s behavior upon another
19 person, even though the actions may be of similar
20 nature . The one thing that I think it will do is it

21 does present you with some amount of empathy for the
22 person involved in t he attack .
23 Um, does it give me empathy for the

24 person that ' s accused of b e ing the attacker?
25 Maybe , because you ' re more -- you -- you have
108
1 some personal knowledge and contact with an event
2 such as this, that someone who has absolutely no
3 knowledge or personal, um, re -- uh, experience
4 with -- may have had.
5 Q Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon, anything?
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Nothing fur ther .
9 THE COURT: Uh, one last question.
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q Uh, on your questionnaire, you noted there may be
13 some employment concerns?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Have those been resolved?
16 A Um, well, wi t hout violating, uh, HIPPA laws, um, but
17 to provide you with enough i nformation so that you
18 know what I'm talking about, um, I'm the surgical
19 services coordinator , and I have a manager, and we
20 co-run the department. Um, so, generally, as far as
21 administrative duties, if one of us is not there , the
22 other one can do it. My co-leader has undergone
23 treatment, and is now undergoing treatment for
24 cancer, and will be doing chemotherapy at a point
25 where she may be gone for a number of days each week
109
1 during that t reatment. She started her first ones
2 yesterday.
3 Um, it , uh -- obviously, my, uh -- my
4 boss above her was not happy about the fact that
5 she may be gone and I may be gone , which may put
6 our department at a - - an extremely short-handed

7 point even without anybody call ing in sick or
8 being on vacation . So tha t, um, obviously, is
9 something which does present a hardship to our
10 department , um , but not something that couldn ' t

11 be , in the best of circumstances , probably worked
12 through.
13 Q All right. Okay . That -- that answers the
14 question . Uh , you may step down , and thank you.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon, any motion?

17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I 'd ask the
18 court consider moving or striking this juror for

19 cause. Uh, simply on the answers to the
20 questions about his -- the one, can he feel he's

21 an objective person a nd can set aside his prior
22 opinions, indi cated he may not be able to do so,
23 or , I ' m not sure, and then this question --

24 answer to your question about presumption of
25 innocence was , I think so. I think t hose are t he
110
1 t wo equivocal, uh, of answers to, I think, some
2 pretty important questions.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: We're not real l y going

4 to object . Um, my concern is also the -- the job
5 situation as well. So given -- you know, in t he
6 best of worlds I probably would -- I would oppose

7 the motion, but I think j ust on balance, I just
8 have a sense that we should probably excuse t his
9 juror.
10 THE COURT : All right. The Court is going
11 to treat that as a - - a stipulated, for cause ,

12 dismissal, but I woul d have - - I would have granted
13 it in any event for -- for those reasons. Uh, it
14 was too close to the line, and the -- the work

15 situation appears to be a little dicey. All right .
16 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: Juror No. 48, Ryan
17 Johnson.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Johnson, be seated. Good
19 morning again .
20 JUROR JOHNSON: Good morning.

22 BY THE COURT :
23 Q Uh, as I mentioned in the courtroom before, we
24 were go i ng to be doing individual voir dire, and
25 that ' s what this i s . I ' m going to ask you a fe w
111
1 questions. Counsel may or may not have some
2 follow-up questions of you.
3 This is, as you know, the -- the case is
4 the State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey . It's
5 received a substantial amount of publicity. Have
6 you heard anything about the case?

7 A Not really much at all.
8 Q Uh --
9 A Like maybe here and there .

10 Q Nothing that sticks in your mind?
11 A Ugh-ugh.
12 Q You're going to have to say yes or no.
13 A I'm sorry . No .
14 Q So have you formed any opinion with respect to

15 the guilt or innocence of this defendant?
16 A No.
17 Q Have you at any -- at any juncture discussed this

18 case with anyone else?
19 A No.

22 A No .
23 Q Have you, a family member, or close friend , ever

24 killed anyone accidentally or otherwi se?
25 A No.
112
1 Q Have you , or has any close friend , or relat i ve of
2 yours , ever been the victim of or a witness to
3 a ny kind o f crime , whe t he r it was repo r ted to law
4 enfor cement or not?
5 A Yes .
6 Q And t hat is?

7 A My wife .
8 Q Specifically ?
9 A Uh , she was raped .
10 Q How long ago did this occur?
11 A Three years .
12 Q Was she your wife at t he time or did i t pre - -
13 A Fi ance at the time .
14 Q All right . Was the perpetrator caught?
15 A Yes .
16 Q Prosecuted?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Did you fee l that law enforcement authorities
19 handled it appropriately?
20 A Yes .
21 Q Uh , do you bring away from this experience
22 anyth ing negative or posit i ve?
23 A No .
24 Q Have you , a close friend, or family member , ever
25 been charged with a crime?
113
1 A Uh, yes . Not me . My brother.
2 Q He was charged with?

3 A Uh, drug possession .
4 Q And convicted?
5 A Urn
6 Q If you know?
7 A Yes and no. He was put on proba t ion for a l ittle
8 while, and then the c harges were dropped , or -- yeah .
9 And then the charges were dropped after he fulfil l ed

10 that .
11 Q All right . What -- what sort of possession are
12 we ta lking about here?
13 A Urn, I think it was crystal rnetharnphetamine.

14 Q Does -- does the fact that he was involved in
15 this way affect your attitude toward law
16 enforcement?
17 A No .
18 Q Do you believe hi s case was fairly handled?
19 A I really didn ' t follow it . He lived 200 mi l es from
20 me. He's nine years younger . So I -- sure . Yes .

21 Q Okay .
22 A I guess.
23 Q If you were selected as a -- a juror in this

24 case , you would be instructed - - you wi ll be
25 instructed that Mr . Dassey is presumed innocent
114
1 and he cannot be found guilty of any offense ,
2 unless and until t he State has proven each
3 element of e ach o ffe n se beyond a reasona b le
4 doubt . Could you follow that instruction?
5 A Absolutely. Yes.
6 Q Uh , likewise , there would be another instruction
7 that would relate to Mr . Das s ey ' s testifying or
8 not testifying . You u nd ersta nd under t he Wis --
9 un -- under the constitution he has a right not
10 to testify in this case , and that if he decided
11 not to testify , that you could not hold that
12 against him . Rather , you would have to base your
13 dec i sion solely on the evidence i n troduced at
14 trial?
15 A Yes .
16 Q Could you fol l ow that instruction?
17 A Yes , sir.
18 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON : Uh , no questions.
20 Thank you .
21 THE COURT : Mr. FREMGEN .
22 VOIR DIRE EXAMI NATION
24 Q My -- my only ques t ion , Mr. Johnson , and , uh --
25 a nd -- a nd -- and agai n , we want to deal with
115
1 these issues here rather t han proposed -- tha t
2 potentially place you in a --
3 A Abs olut ely.
4 Q -- position of embarrassment -- about , uh, your
5 wife having been a victim of a sexual as sault .
6 A Um-hmm .
7 Q Ob -- obviously, t hat had -- at t he time , I ' m
8 going to assume , had a pretty significant impact
9 on you as well as your wife?
10 A Yeah . At the time it did , yes.
11 Q Um, have you talked about it over the las t t hree
12 years?
13 A Absolutely. That's how -- that's how we got through
14 it . Kind of made us stronger , so ...
15 Q Now , sett ing aside the person wh o d i d it ,
16 obvious l y
17 A Um-hmm .
18 Q - - does that impact your opinion of other pe rs ons
19 who are c harged wi t h sexual assault?
20 A No .
21 Q You don ' t feel that just because of that
22 inciden t , that anyone charged with a sexua l
23 assaul t , for instance, is guilty automatica ll y?

24 A No, b ecause there ' s -- I I -- there ' s p len ty of
25 people that can just say it to get somebody in
11 6
1 trouble , you know , so . ..
2 THE COURT : Any further questions?
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No . No , Judge .
4 THE COURT : You may step down . Thank yo u .
5 JUROR JOHNSON: All right . Thank you .
6 THE COURT : You ' re going to wai t out in the
7 ante r oom for just a moment .
8 (Wherein juror is escor ted out . )
9 ATTORNEY FALLON : No motion .
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: None .
11 THE COURT : All right . He wi ll be seated
12 in the jury box . Um, next juror .
13 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This i s J uror No.
14 49, Kris ten Durst .
15 THE COURT: You ' re Ms. Durst?
16 JUROR DURST: Yes .
18 BY THE COURT :
19 Q This is indi vidua l voir di re . I talked about i t
20 a bit whe n you were in the courtroom . I ' m going
21 to ask you some questions . Counsel may have
22 follow-up questions or may not . Uh , you're a ware
23 this is the State -- State of Wisconsin vs.
24 Brendan Dassey. The case has received a
25 substanti al a mount of publicity . What , if
117
1 anything , have you heard about the case?
2 A Um, I have heard what probably a lot of people in the
3 state have heard . I ' ve r ead some news articles in

4 the local paper , but not a whole lot more t han that .
5 Q Based on what you've read, have you formed any
6 opinions about the guilt or innocence of this

7 defendant?
8 A No .
9 Q Have you discussed this case with anyone?

10 A Um, no. I think probably at work prior to, um,
11 receiving notification , there ' s been some general
12 discussion. I haven ' t really been invo lved in that
13 but .. .
14 Q This is not in-depth discussion?

15 A Not in depth, no.
16 Q Just --
17 A I'm not
18 Q -- in passing?
19 A Right .
20 Q All right . Have you had a family member or a

21 frie nd who was killed accidentally or otherwise?
22 A No .
23 Q Have you , a family member, or a close friend ,

25 A No.
118
1 Q If you were called to serve on this jury, could
2 you disregard anything you may have heard or read
3 i n t he medi a, o r fr om any source , and decide t he

4 case solely based on the evidence produced in
5 court?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Have you, a close f r iend , or a family membe r ,
9 A No .
10 Q Specifically, have you ever had a close friend or
11 family member that was , uh, involved in a sexual

12 assault?
13 A No .
14 Q If you ' re selected as a juror in t his case , you
15 wil l be instructed that Mr. Dassey is presumed
16 innocent and that he can cannot be found guilty
17 of any offense , unless and un t il t he State has

19 reasonable doubt. If you were selected, uh,
20 could you follow this instruction?

21 A Ye s .
22 Q Likewi se , uh , Mr . Dassey has a right under the
23 constitution to testify i n court or not as he

24 sees fit. If he decid es not to testify, uh , you
25 cannot hold t hat against him . Rather , you must
119
1 base your -- base your verdict on the evidence
2 that ' s received in court. Can you follow that
3 instruction a s we l l ?
4 A Yes .
5 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon , any questions?
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : Urn, just one .

9 Q Urn , is there anything about your background in

10 journalism or that experience of having worked i n
11 that field that makes you wonder as to whe t her
12 you could fairly and impartial l y decide this case
13 based on, for instance , pretrial p ublicity and
14 whatever other experience you had as a

15 journalist?
16 A I don ' t believe that that would , uh , hinder things i n

17 any way . I haven ' t worked , urn , i n that capacity in a
18 few years , urn, nor in the state of Wisconsin .
19 Q When you worked in the field, did you cover the
20 court system and handle any type of , urn -- or

21 cover any murder trials or anything like that?
22 A Um, not specificall y cover . I was a news announcer ,
23 so I did read stories on , you know

24 Q Oh , I see .
25 A -- daily ne ws , yes.
120
1 Q Okay. Al l right. Thank you .
2 THE COURT : Anything , Mr . Fremgen?
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , Judge .
5 JUROR DURST : Okay .
6 THE COURT : You can wait in the anteroom
7 with , uh , the -- the judicial assistant for a
8 moment.
9 (Whe rein juror is escorted out . )
10 THE COURT : Any mot ion , Mr . Fallon?
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No .
14 THE COURT : All right . Uh, before we call
15 the - - the next j u r or , uh, I was discussing with one
16 of the bailiffs , uh , the -- the lunch . I propose we
17 take 45 minu tes at one time or another . Trying to
18 find out when the cafeteria is going to be leas t
19 busy so the jurors and -- and we can circulate
20 through it . Is that 45 minutes , is t hat eithe r too
21 long or too short for any of you?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fi ne .
23 (Discussion off the record . )
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, Counsel just
25 raised an i nteresting question. Is there anyone
121
1 you want to send down now? I mean , f ' gure we ' ve
2 got I mean , we could probably do three or four
3 before noon , a nd you could --
4 THE COURT : That's probably -- it ' s a good
5 idea.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: You know, send a bunch
7 of them down now and we can have them come back
8 by 12 : 30 , quarte r to l?
9 BAILIFF: Yeah . We were just going to
10 suggest maybe --
11 COURT REPORTER: Is this on the record?
12 Do we nee d this on the record?
13 THE COURT : Sure. Nah , you don't need
14 it on.
15 (Discussion off the record.)
16 (Nine jurors previou sly seated in jury
17 box are brought into the courtroom . )
18 THE COURT: Just -- we ' re sending you fo lks
19 down for lunch now . Uh, prior to going, I just want
20 to admonish you, again, ins truct you that -- oops--
21 BAILIFF : We have one more .
22 THE COURT : All right . Uh , I -- I just
23 want to instruct you , again, not to say anything
24 about this case to anyone . That includes
25 yourselves. You can talk about anything else you
122
1 want to, but anything that has to do with this case
2 is -- is out of bounds . Uh , so you're going to take
3 them downstairs to the cafeteria or just simply send
4 them down?
5 BAILIFF: We 'l l just -- we' ll just turn
6 them loose.
7 THE COURT: All right. We'll see you a
8 little later.
9 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: Thi s is Mr.
10 Williams , No. 50.
12 BY THE COURT :
13 Q Mr. Williams , this is individua l voir dire . I 'm
14 going to ask you a few quest i ons. Counsel may or
15 may not have some follow-up questions to -- to
16 ask you.
17 Uh, this, as you know, is the case of

18 the State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey. It ' s
19 received a fair amount of -- of publicity. Have
20 you -- have you heard anything about this case?
21 A Yes, I have.
22 Q Uh , from what source did you learn whatever i t is
23 you ' ve heard?
24 A Um, mostly just newspaper accounts and maybe a blurb
25 on the , uh, radio or TV, but -- but since I was given
123
1 the questionnaire , I steered clear of it , so ...
2 Q All right. Based on the information that -- tha t
3 you had received, have you formed an opinion, uh ,
4 of whether or not , uh, Mr. Dassey is innocent or
5 guilty?
6 A No , sir .
7 Q Have you discussed this case with any other
8 persons?
9 A No, sir .
10 Q Have you had a f amil y member or a friend who was
11 killed accidentally or othe rwise?
12 A Uh, when I was 22 years old , my grandfat her was --
13 was murdered in California.
14 Q All ri ght . I'm not asking your age at t hi s
15 point , but I pres ume that was some time ago ?
16 A Yes, sir . I'm 37 .
17 Q All right . So was the -- was t he pe rson who
18 committ ed t his, uh, mur der p rosecuted?
19 A No , sir .
20 Q There ' s been no prosecution ?
21 A Still an ope n case.
22 Q Has that affected i n a ny way t h e -- t he manner in
23 which you view law enforcement?
24 A No , sir .
25 Q Uh , h a v e you , a family member , or a close frie nd ,
12 4
1 ever killed anyone accidental ly or otherwise?
2 A No , sir .
3 Q Uh, you discussed your grandfather and the fac t

4 t hat he wa s the -- the victim of -- of murder .
5 Uh, any other friend , or relative , or famil y
6 member , that -- that was the victim of a crime?

7 A No, s ir.
8 Q Uh, specifically, a sexual assault? Any close
9 frie nds or fami ly member?

10 A No, s ir.
11 Q Can you set asid e whatever you may have heard or

12 read a bout this case i n t he media , or any other
13 source , and decide t his case based solely on t he
14 evidence produced i n court?

15 A Absolutely .
16 Q If you were selected as a juror , you wi ll be

17 instructed that, uh , Mr. Dassey is presumed
18 innocent and that he cannot be fo und guilty of
19 any offense , unless and until the State has
20 proven each element of each offense b eyond a

21 reasonable doubt . If you were a juror , could you
22 follow that instructi on?
23 A Yes , sir .
24 Q Uh, likewise , uh, if you were a juror , you would
25 be instructe d that Mr. Dassey has a
125
1 constitutional right not to testify in this case,
2 and that if he decides not to testify, you cannot
3 hold that against him. Rather, you must base
4 your decision solely on the evidence introduced
5 at trial. If you were a juror , could you follow
6 that instruction?
7 A I could, sir.
8 THE COURT : Mr. Fall on?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: No questions .
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, uh, just a
12 few.
15 Q Mr. Wilson -- or Willi ams , excuse me, the Judge
16 asked you about, um, the incident, or your
17 experience with your grandfather having been
18 murdered, and asked about the impact -- whether
19 it has impacted on you, your feelings about law
20 enforcement. Does it have any impact or that had
21 an impact on your feelings about persons charged
22 wi th crimes?
23 A No. Uh, I think the only way it's impacted me was

24 loss of a -- of a grandparent and how that made me
25 feel at the time. But my opinion of law enforcement
126
1 or - - or perpetrators of crime , I - - i t didn ' t
2 have that didn't have a ny bearing on it . It was
3 more of the loss of my grandf ather that was very

4 troubling.
5 Q And I would assume , I mean, obviously, you would
6 have empathy then with persons who've lost loved

7 ones just like yourself?
8 A Although I -- I -- I wouldn't know -- I 've never
9 discussed it wi t h other people who have, uh , lost

10 loved ones in the same situation , so I -- I don ' t
11 know. I -- I mean , I only know how I felt .
12 Q That ' s fin e. Would this be a hardship being away
13 from your family and unable t o - - I understa nd
14 from your questionnaire, you're -- you're the

15 stay-at-home dad and your wife wor ks --
17 Q f ull- time.
18 A My profes sion -- I 'm a history teacher , a nd, um, my
19 wife and I always like to kid that I lost the coin
20 toss. So I stayed home this year with our three

21 children. One of them - - two of them are at -- they
22 go to school part uh, a nd one of t hem is a n
23 infant . Would it be troubling is what you're asking?

24 I think it would be troubling to stay away from my
25 family in any circumstance , um , so , of course .
127
1 Q Well -- uh , and -- and, uh , maybe I didn't phrase
2 it correctl y. Uh, do you have appropriate , um,
3 caret akers t hat you -- you It won't be a
4 p rob lem for you as t he, uh the full-time
5 caretaker to not be there for t wo weeks?
6 A It -- it -- it - - it won't be a problem as far as

7 fiscally , financially, no. And my -- and we do have,
8 um -- we've already set up as -- by the questionnaire
9 and the summons that I would receive from Manitowoc

10 County Court here , Your Honor, uh , I ' ve already made
11 those arrangements .
12 So in that s ense , arrangements have
13 already been made, um, but , again, if you' re
14 asking me, is it goi ng to be difficult to stay

15 away from my three chi l dren and my wife for two
16 weeks or longer , um, I wouldn ' t be honest to tell
17 you t hat that wouldn' t be hard, but ...
18 Q No. And and I 'm ass uming all juror s would
19 have the
20 A Right.
21 Q -- same opinion you do. I -- because you ' re in a
22 mo re unique situat i on , having been the -- t he
23 f ull -time s t ay-at-home dad --
24 A Right.
25 Q -- that it ' s --
128
1 A And -- and having taught civics to my students i n the
2 past , you know, preaching t he fact t hat th i s is an
3 important p rocess in the l egal system, and that
4 people are entitled to have a juror of their peers , I
5 find it very difficult, a nd maybe even hypocritical,
6 for me to make arrange -- uh, to create an

7 arrangement that I woul dn 't be able to - - to arrange
8 strictly upon need .
9 So , fina ncially , it's not a problem.
10 Um, but , again, if you ' re asking me , you know, is
11 it going to be painful to some extent to be away
12 f rom my children? Absolutely . But arrangements
13 have been made . My wife is very - - You know,
14 we ' re partners in t his who le thing together . She
15 has simi lar feeli ngs about t he judicial system as
16 I , and t hat's -- I ' ve made arrangements .
17 Q I appreciate that. Thank you .
18 THE COURT: Any further qu est ions?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Just -- Judge, um,
20 could we
21 THE COURT: Go a head .
22 Q (By Attor ne y Frerngen) There wa s one other
23 question on -- on the questionnaire . You
24 indicated your wi fe is a physician?
25 A Yes , sir .
129
1 Q Does she have a specialty?
2 A She's an internist .
3 Q Okay. Tha nk you.

4 THE COURT : You may step down . Thank you.
5 You're going to accompany the judicial assistant
6 into the anteroom there .
7 (Wherei n juror is escorted out.)
8 THE COURT : Motions , Mr . Fallon?
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No .
12 THE COURT: All right . Uh, Mr. Williams
13 will be seated . Does anyone suggest I admonish this
14 juror again?
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: No .
16 THE COURT: He can go.
17 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is J uror No .
18 54, Thomas Heinzel.
19 THE COURT: Hi, Mr. Heinzel . Be seated .
21 BY THE COURT :
22 Q Uh , before , I told you we were d oi ng i ndividua l
23 voir dire and here you are at individual voir
24 dire. I ' m going to ask you some questions.
25 A Okay .
130
1 Q Uh, after I ' m done , counsel may or may not have
2 some fo l low-up ques t ions .
3 A Okay .
4 Q You're aware that this is the case of t he State
5 vs . Brendan Dassey . It has received a
6 substantial amount of publicity. Have you heard

7 anything about this case?
8 A No.
9 Q Nothing?
10 A There was , um -- on the TV at one point in time there
11 was mention of that . I I don ' t remember enough
12 details to say , oh , yes , I remember anything , but,
13 um, I do remember something about the - - the case .
14 Q So if I ask it this way, have you heard anything

15 substantive that you remember about this case?
16 A Not at all .
17 Q Uh , have you formed any opinion as to his guilt
18 or innocence?
19 A No .
20 Q Have you had a family membe r or a friend who was

22 A Yes .
23 Q And that would be?

24 A Um, my brother .
25 Q What - - what were the circumstances?
131
1 A He was in an auto accident .
2 Q How long ago was this?
3 A Urn , it would have been March 31 this pas t year .
4 Q Of 2 006?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Has that had any impact on the way that you think
7 about law enforce ment?
8 A No.
9 Q Neither positive or n egative?
10 A No.
11 Q Have you , a fami l y member, or a close friend ,
13 A No, I haven't. When my brother was killed , it was ,
14 um -- he was in an automobile with that -- with his
15 wife , and , uh, h is brother- i n- law was d ri ving the
16 vehicle s o ...
17 Q I see . I see . And we re there other fatalities
18 in that accident --
19 A No.
20 Q - - besides your brother?
21 A No .
22 Q If you were called to serve as a juror in t hi s
23 case , can you disregard t h at whi ch you may have
24 heard in the media and decide t he case solely
25 based on the facts that are presented in court?
132
1 A Yes .
2 Q Uh , have you, or any c lose frie nd, or relative ,

3 ever been the victim of or a witness to any kind
4 of crime , whether it was reported to law
5 e nforcement or not?
6 A No.
7 Q How about , uh -- I'll -- I ' ll b e a li ttle more
8 specific. Have any close fr iend or relative of
9 yours ever been t he victim of a sexual assault?

10 A No .
11 Q If you're selected as a juror in t hi s case, you
12 will be instruct e d t hat Brendan Dassey i s
13 p resumed innocent and that he canno t be found


17 j uror, could you follow that instruction?
18 A Definitely .
19 Q Uh , likewise , if you were selected as a juror ,
20 you would be instructed that Mr . Dassey has a

21 constitutional right not to testify in this case ,
22 and that if he decides not to testify , you cannot
23 hold that agai nst h im . Rather , you must base

24 your decision sole ly on the evidence introduced
25 at trial . Could you, as a juror, fo l low t hat
133
1 instructi on?
2 A Yes .
3 THE COURT : Mr . Fal lon , a ny questions?
4 ATTORNEY FALLON : None.
5 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen , any questions?
8 Q Uh , Mr . Heinzel?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Was your brother-in- law charged with a crime
11 in -- related to t hat car accident?
12 A I be lieve in the state of Las Vegas they have to
13 file , um, a charge. I don ' t know , specifically, what
14 it was . I know he had to go to court there, but, um,
15 he was basically dismissed . Uh , I believe t he, uh
16 the judge said, we put you through enough, they 're
17 not goi ng to do a nything to them .
18 Q Do you thi n k that was fair?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Okay . Nothing else .
21 THE COURT: All right . You may step down .
22 The j ud ici al ass is tant will take you to the, um,
23 anteroom, a nd you ' ll be free to go down and -- and
24 have lunch if you wish .
25 JUROR HEINZEL : Okay . Thank you .
134
1 (Wh erein juror is escorted out . )
2 THE COURT : No mot i ons?
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , Judge .
5 THE COURT: All right . He will be seated .
6 JUD I CIAL ASSISTANT: Juror No . 63 , Becky
7 Fo ss.
8 THE COURT : Hi, Ms . Foss . Wh y don 't --
9 JUROR FOSS : Hel l o .
10 THE COURT : -- you just be seated there .
12 BY THE COURT :
13 Q This is , as I n o ted b e fore i n the other
14 courtroom, individua l voir dire . I ' m going to
15 ask you some questions . Counse l may or may not
16 h ave some follo w-up questions to you .
17 A Okay .
18 Q Uh, t h is is the State -- the c a se here is the
19 State of Wiscons i n vs . Brendan Dassey . It's
20 received a s ubstant ial amount of pub licity . Have
21 y o u heard a n yth ing about t h is case?
22 A Not thi s one in particular , no .
23 ATTORNEY FALLON : I ' m sorry , I coul dn't
24 hear that response .
25 JUROR FOSS : No .
135
1 THE COURT: Uh, she said not this one in
2 particular.
3 Q (By the Court) By that, have you heard something
4 about a different case? The Avery case?
5 A Yes.
6 Q All right. But you've heard nothing about this
7 particul ar case?
8 A No.
9 Q Based on anything you've heard about any case ,
10 uh, have you formed any opinions about the guilt
11 or the innocence of Mr. Dassey?
12 A No.
14 A No.
17 A No.
18 Q Have you, a family member , or -- or close friend ,
20 A No.
21 Q Um, have you, a close friend, or a family member ,
22 ever been arrested?
23 A Um, my ex-boyfriend was about three years ago .
24 Q And he was arrested for what?
25 A Um, selling marijuana.
136
1 Q Was he convicted?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Does the fact that he was arr ested and convicted
4 affect your attitude in any way , positive or
5 negative , toward law enforcement authorities?
6 A No.
7 Q Uh , h ave you , a close friend , or relative, ever
8 been the victim or wi tness to a crime , a n y kind
9 of crime , whether it was reported to law
10 enforcement or not?
11 A Um, yeah, my sister was mugged maybe a year ago i n
12 Waukesha .
13 Q Al l right . Anything else? Was it reported to
14 law enforcement?
15 A Yeah . Yes .
16 Q Did they -- d i d they , uh, catch the - -
17 A Yes , they did .
18 Q -- perpetrator? Does that experience , in your
19 own mind , affect the way you think about law
20 enforcement?
21 A No .
22 Q Uh , h ave you, or a c l ose friend , or relative ,
23 ever been the victim of a sexual assault?
24 A No .
25 Q Have you, a c l ose friend , or a relative , ever
137
1 been charged with a crime? Other than the --
2 A Other than tha t one ?
3 Q Yeah.
4 A No.
5 Q If you're selected as a juror , you'll be
7 and t hat he cannot be fou nd guilty of any
8 offense , u nl ess and unti l the State has proven
9 each element of each offense beyond a reasonable
10 doubt. If you were selected as a juror in this
11 case, could you follow that instruction?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Likewise, you would be instructed that Mr . Dassey
14 has a right not to testify in this case , and that
15 if he decides not to testify, you cannot hold
16 that against him. Rather, you must base you r
17 decision solely on the evidence introduced at
18 trial . Could you follow that instruction as
19 well?
20 A Yes.
21 THE COURT: All right . Mr. Fallon, any
22 questions?
23 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes. Thank you .
138
1 Q Urn, Ms . Foss , you indi cated you -- you had some
2 familiarity or some op inions , I guess, with
3 respect to the other case involving Mr. Avery .
4 What opinions did you have relative to that case?
5 A Oh , um , I didn ' t have any opinion , but I just
6 happened to see one news article about it .
7 THE COURT : Sh - - sh -- she did not say she
8 had any opinions , but she said she was aware .
9 ATTORNEY FALLON : Oh , I see . I ' m sorry .
10 Q (By Attorney Fallon) Um , perhaps I ' m just
11 misreading this , but you seemed a little pensive
12 in -- in one of your responses regarding , uh,
13 discussions or , uh , the fact that , um, your
14 ex-boyfriend was arrested . Is is there
15 anything about that experience at all that
16 that causes you some question or concern whether
17 you think yo u could , urn, fairly evaluate the
18 evidence in this case?
19 A I don ' t think so. No.
20 Q Okay. Um -- That ' s all I have. Thank you.
21 THE COURT : Any questions , Mr . Fremgen?
24 Q Ms. Foss, when the Judge was asking you about the
25 incident that occur red with your sister in
139
1 Waukesha , whether it impacted on your opinion or
2 fee lings towards l aw enforcement
3 A Um-hmm.
4 Q -- uh, did that have any impact on your feeli ng s
5 towards persons who are charged with crimes?
6 A No.
7 Q What about the experience that you had when your
8 ex-boyfriend was charged with -- with a drug
9 offense? You you - - you indicated he's an
10 ex-boyfriend?
11 A Right.
12 Q And from your questionnaire, you were somewhat
13 disturbed by how the search took place in your
14 home?
15 A Um-hmm.
16 Q Did that leave you with any strong feeli ngs or an
17 impact about, um, persons who are charged with
18 crimes , such as i n this -- that case , I suppose,
19 a drug offense?
20 A No.
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I have nothing else.
22 THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
23 Uh , you can also go to lunch. Accompany the
24 judicial assistant. You're going to wait in the
25 anteroom for just a moment.
140
2 THE COURT: Mr . Fallon , a n y mot i on?
6 THE COURT : She will be seated . Next .
7 J UDICIAL ASS I STANT : No . 65 , Linda
8 Harris .
9 THE COURT : Hi , Ms . Harris . Be seated
10 there if you would , please .
12 BY THE COURT :
13 Q Uh , I mentioned t h at we were d oing indivi dual
14 voir dire . You ' re now here for individual vo i r
15 dire. I'm going to ask you a few questions , and
16 the n counsel may h ave some follow - up questions,
17 or no t, as t h ey choose .
18 A All right .
19 Q Uh , you ' re aware this is the State of Wisconsin
20 vs . Brendan Dassey . It , uh -- The case is. It ' s
21 received a substantial amount of publicity . Have
22 you heard anythi n g about t his case?
23 A Um, you know , just that it was going to occur .
24 Q All right . I ' m trying to ques
25 A I mean --
141
1 Q - - trying to get at -- I 'm sorry. Go on .
2 A Yeah . Just that it was going to occur , you know , and
3 I had read , you know, about Steven Avery.
4 Q All right . So you -- you had heard something
5 abo ut the Steven Avery case; is t hat correct?
6 A Correct .
7 Q You have heard that this case , State vs . Dassey ,
8 is going to occur; is that correct?
9 A Correct .
10 Q Where did you learn about the Dassey case?
11 A On TV. Channel --
12 Q Any - -
13 A -- 3 .
14 Q All right. Any other source that you can recall?
15 A Um, no .
16 Q Has anything that you - - you heard about this ,
17 uh -- based o n anything you heard, have you --
18 have you formed any opinions as to the gui l t or
19 innocence of Mr . Dassey?
20 A No .
21 Q Have you d iscussed t h is case with anyone?
22 A No.
23 Q Have you had a famil y member or a friend who was
25 A No .
14 2
1 Q Uh , have you , a family member, or a close friend ,
2 ever killed anyone?
3 A No .
4 Q Have you , a close friend, or a relative , ever
5 been the victim of a crime , whether it's reported
6 or not?
7 A I was a victim of a c rime.
8 Q And what crime was that?
9 A Um, a hous e invasion while I was home.
11 A Over 30 years ago .
12 Q All right . I - - Did this l eave any lasting
13 effect or any effect whatsoever on your
14 impression , positive or negative , of law
15 enforcement agencies?
16 A No .
17 Q Was whoever did the home i nvasion caught?
18 A No .
19 Q Uh, have you , or a close friend , or relative ,
21 A No .
22 Q Have you , a close frie nd , or family member, ever
23 been arrested?
24 A No .
25 Q Charged with a crime?
143
1 A No .
2 Q If you were selected as a juror in this case , you
3 would be instructed t hat Mr . Dassey is presumed

7 reasonable doubt . Cou l d you follow that
8 instruction ?
9 A I could .
10 Q Likewise , you would be instructed that Mr. Dassey
11 has a constitutional right not to testify in
12 in this case , and t hat if he decides not to
13 testify, you could not hold that agai n st him .
14 Rather , you must base your decision solely on the
15 evidence introduced at trial . As a juror , could
16 you follow that instruction as well?

17 A Yes , I could .
18 THE COURT : All right . Mr . Fallon , any
19 questions?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No , Judge .
23 THE COURT : All right . Uh , you may step
24 down .
25 JUROR HARRIS : Okay.
144
1 THE COURT: You can go to lunch. Uh ,
2 you 're going to wait in the anteroom for just a
3 moment with the judicial assistant .
4 (Wherein juror is escorted out .)
5 THE COURT: Any motions from either
6 counsel?
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No, Judge .
9 THE COURT: She ' ll be seated . Was that the
10 last juror? Did we
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : There ' s one more .
12 THE COURT: One more? Okay . Then, uh,
13 Counsel, let me just ask you before we bring the
14 next j uro r in , uh , how big a lunch break do you
15 want?
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: Forty-five is fine.
17 THE COURT : Forty-five. Okay.
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : That ' s fine , Judge.
19 THE COURT : All right. Next juror , please.
20 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is No . 67,
21 Brenda Garske.
22 THE COURT: Hi , Ms. Garske .
23 JUROR GARSKE : Hi .
24 THE COURT : Just take that chair if you
25 would , please.
145
2 BY THE COURT :
3 Q Ms. Garske , this i s individual voir dire . Uh,
4 I 'm going to ask you some questions, after which
5 counsel may have some questions to ask you as
6 well.
7 A Okay.
8 Q Uh , you ' re aware this is the State of Wisconsin
9 vs. Brendan Dassey . It's a case which has
10 received a substantial amount of publicity . Have

11 you heard anything about this case?
12 A No .
13 Q Nothing?
14 A I haven't been listening. No .

15 Q All right. Uh , you haven't read anything about
16 it either?
17 A No.
18 Q So as we sit here today, do you have any
19 preconceived notion , uh , opinion about the guilt
20 or innocence of this defendant?
21 A No .
23 killed accidental ly or otherwise?

24 A No.
25 Q Have you, a family member, or a close friend,
146
2 A No.
3 Q Have you, or has any c l ose friend, or relative,
4 ever been the victim of or a witness to any kind
5 of crime , whether it was reported to t he pol ice
6 or not?
7 A Not that I recall.
8 Q All right . Uh , spec ifica l ly, have you , a family
9 member , or a friend , ever been the victim of a
10 sexual assault?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you , a close friend, or family member , ever
13 been arrested?
14 A No. Well , I guess my -- I don't know if my
15 brother-in-law was.
16 Q All right. Your -- your -- your brother- in- law
17 was involved in -- in something with --
18 A Yeah .
19 Q -- the law?
20 ·A But I don't know all the details .
21 Q Do you know any of the details?
22 A Just that it was a sexual thing.
23 Q Oh. He may have been involve d in a sexual
24 assault?
25 A Um-hmm.
147
1 Q Uh, you' re going to have to say, yes or no --
2 A Yes.
3 Q - - for the benefit of the court r eporter . Was he

4 prosecuted if you know?
5 A I don' t know .
6 Q Al l you know is that he was involved; is that

7 correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Uh , does his involvement in -- in any wa y ,
10 positively or -- or negatively , affect your view
11 of law enfor cement?
12 A No.
13 Q Um, of sexual assaults?

14 A No .
15 Q If you were selected as a juror , you would be
16 inst ructed that Brendan Dassey is presumed

17 innocent and that he cannot be found gui l ty of
18 a ny offense, unless and until the State has

21 juror in this case, would you be able to fo llow

22 that ins t ruction ?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Like wise, if you were selected as a juror , you ' d
25 also be i nstructed that , uh , Mr. Dassey had a
148
1 constitutional right not to testify i f he so
2 chose, and that if he decided not to testify , you
3 could not hold that against him. Rather, you
4 would have to determine the case based on the
5 evidence that was before you. Could you follow
6 that instruction as well?
7 A Yes.
8 THE COURT : Mr . Fa llon, any questions?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh, two .
12 Q Um , so all that you know is i t's your brother --
13 uh , brother-in-law is a sex offender in Alabama?
14 A That ' s all I know , yes .
15 Q It -- so with that label , does that mean he has
16 to register as an offender down there or
17 A That I don't know.
18 Q How -- how -- how do you know that he's a sex
19 off ender?
20 A My mother- in- law, um, at Christmastime a few years
21 b ack , um, said that he was in some sort of trouble.
22 Q Oh. Okay. So you -- All right. And so you
23 don't really know if he's actually been convicted
24 or registered or anything like that?
25 A No .
149
1 Q Okay . Um, the only other question that I have,
2 then, I see from the questionnaire that your
3 husband is schedu led for some surgery the -- the
4 first full week of May?
5 A Yes, that's correct .
6 Q Um, I mean, we 're -- expect the trial to be done ,
7 perhaps, a f ull week before that, but are there
8 any, um, uh, pre-surgical preparations t hat you
9 mi ght have to be home to assist your husband, and
10 get ready for, and things of that sort?
11 A No. Nothing again until after the 7th.
12 Q All right. So even though you - - if you were
13 selected, you could be gone for two weeks. That
14 woul dn't create any , um, hardship or concerns in
15 terms of caring for your husband in the meantime?
16 A No.
17 Q That's all I have .
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , sir.
20 THE COURT: You may step down. Uh , just
21 accompany the judicial assistant into the anteroom,
22 a nd then feel free to go to lunch.
24 THE COURT : Motions, gentlemen ?
150
2 THE COURT : All right. She ' ll be sea t ed .
3 Uh, we are temporarily out of jurors, so why don 't
4 we break for 45 mi nutes for lunch.
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That ' s fine .
7 (Recess had at 12:10 p.m.)
8 (Reconvened at 1:06 p.m.)
9 JUDICIAL AS SISTANT : This is Juror No .
10 72 , Ronald Paltz .
11 THE COURT : Mr . Paltz , why don ' t you take a
12 chair t h ere if you would, please .
13 JUROR PALTZ : Thank you .
15 BY THE COURT :
16 Q This is the i ndividual voir dire part of voir
17 dire. I talked a little bi t about i t in the
18 court earlier this morning . I ' m going to be
19 asking you a number of questions , and then
20 counsel may or may not have follo w- up questions .
21 A Okay . Great .
22 Q Uh, the cases we' r e here on , as you know, is
23 State vs . Brendan Dassey , and it's received a
24 substantial amount of publicity . What, if
25 anything , have you heard about it?
151
1 A Um, I've seen it in, uh , the newspaper , um, on TV,
2 and some on the radio.
3 Q Based on what you have heard and seen, have you
4 formed any opinions about the guilt or innocence
5 of the defendant , Brendan Dassey?
6 A No .
7 Q Have you discussed this case with others?
8 A Um, be fore -- I should say, no . Not thi s particular
9 case .
10 Q All right . Mi ght you have discussed --
11 A The -- the Avery case .
12 Q All right . Uh, you understand t hi s is a separate
13 case?
14 A Yes , I do .
15 Q And whatever happened in Avery , happened in
16 Avery. You can consider this case on its own
17 merits?
18 A Yes, I can.
19 Q You had a family member or a friend who was
21 A No .
22 Q Have you, a family member , or a close friend,
24 A Nope .
25 Q If you're called upon to serve as a juror in this
15 2
1 case , can you disregard anything you may have
2 read or heard in the media , or from any other
3 source , about this case , and decide the case
4 based solely on the evidence that you hear?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Have you , or has any close friend , or relative ,
7 ever been the victim of the witness -- uh ,
8 witness to any kind of crime , whether it's
9 reported to law enforcement or not?
10 A No.
11 Q Uh , specifically, have you , or a close friend , or
12 relative , been the victim of a sexual assault?
13 A No .
14 Q Have you, or a close friend , or a family member ,
16 A No .
17 Q If selected as a juror in this case, you will be
18 instructed that Mr. Dassey is presumed innocent
19 and that he cannot be found guilty of any
20 offense, unless and until the State has proven
22 doubt . If you were selected as a juror , could
23 you follow this instruction?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Likewise , you would be instructed that Mr. Dassey
153
1 has a constitutional right not to testify, and
2 that if he decides not to testify, you cannot
5 at trial . Could you follow that instruction?
6 A Yes.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON : No questions.
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Just , uh, one
11 followup .
14 Q From your questionnaire, you indicated you are --
15 have some relation to a Winnebago County
16 Sheriff's Officer?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Is that a close relation or cousin?
19 A It 's a good friend.
20 Q Oh, good frie nd?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay . When you say that you had discussed, uh,
23 the Avery case with others, did that include this
24 officer friend from Winnebago?
25 A No, it did not.
154
1 Q Okay. So it wasn't anyone that was actually
2 closer to the action , so to speak?
3 A No .
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Nothing else.
5 THE COURT : All right. Thank you. You may
6 step down , and go with t he --
7 JUROR PALTZ : I -- I was just going to
8 say o ne thi ng on a hardship. I don't know if I
9 can say a nything. I guess --
11 JUROR PALTZ: I mean, the only thing I
12 ask is I ' m currently in the process of building a
13 family-owned business . Um, I'm the general
14 contractor on the business. The business has to
15 be open doesn ' t have to be open -- but our
16 goal is we're going to have it open by June 1 .
17 Um, and I'm , general ly -- like I said, the
18 general contractor, so I have con --
19 subcontractors calling me constantly on this
20 business .
21 Um, I just wanted to voice that , um, any
22 other time, the timing would be great. This
23 timing is terrible for me . I just wanted to
24 voice that, to be honest .
25 THE COURT : All right. Thank you .
155
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, can I follow
2 up on that question
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: if I might?
5 Q (By Mr. Fremgen) Uh, is that going to be
6 weighing on your mind while this case is going
7 on? Le t's say, if you were, uh, picked as a
8 juror, and -- and asked, uh, uh -- try to, uh,
9 have one hundred percent of your attention
10 focused on the trial , will the fact that you have
11 this business, and you ' re not going to be able to
12 respond to a number of questions, as you point
13 out, with the other contractors, uh, is that
14 going to be weighing on your mind, taking your
15 attention away from the evidence , testimony?
16 A Um, I will be thinking of it. I'll say that much.
17 Um, and I put that in my questionnaire, too , as --
18 as, uh it was in there. Um --
19 Q Sure.
20 A -- I -- and I just wanted to be honest with t hat.
21 Because, I mean, it's -- it's a big project. It ' s ,
22 um -- I'm totally going to be self-employed after
23 this project's done. So, I mean , everything is
24 hinging off this project, um, for us to do this . So ,
25 uh, I just wanted to be honest with it and up front .
156
1 Q And -- and , again, in that regard, let -- let's
2 say, for instance, you 're in deliberations , um,
3 be -- you would be able to, again , put that off
4 and not let that be a focus of trying to get
5 quicker through the deliberation process versus
6 taking your time, and listening to the evidence ,
7 and lis tening to all t he jurors, or doing
8 whatever you do as a j uror in that -- d eciding
9 what the verdict should be? We don't want you to
10 rush to judgment
11 A Right.
12 Q -- because you have this other --
13 A I understand.
14 Q -- obligation?
15 A I understand that . Um, I guess it's kind of hard for
16 me to say. But I - - I -- I just say this much, it's
17 on my mi nd. I mean, even now on my break , I'm making
18 phone calls, um , setting up subcontractors, to deal
19 with subcontractors , material handling, people that
20 are dealing stuff with us. I mean, it 's -- right now
21 it is between -- besides my full-time job, this is
22 it's -- a hundred percent of my time is devoted to
23 the -- to my full-time job plus this other project
24 that's going on .
25 Q I appreciate that. Thank you .
157
2 BY THE COURT :
3 Q One last question, and I'm sorry to interrupt
4 you, but , uh, woul d this , as you describe it ,
5 pose a significant economic hardship for you?
6 A Um , what it would -- what it is, it ' s a dog kennel
7 training facility . Majority of your business for dog
8 kennels is June, July and Au gust . That's why we ' re
9 trying to be open in June , to get the full amount of
10 reven -- or revenue for this kennel. That's --
11 that ' s the main reason we're trying to be open by
12 June 1 .
16 Q Does it provide any solace at all that there's a
17 very good chance this case will be completed by
18 April 30? In other words, you still have a full
19 month before your -- your target opening?
20 A The only problem's the building right now is just
21 structure of the building is just up right now .
22 There's no -- they're jus t s heeting the building as
23 we speak, so we've got subcontractors from heating
24 and cooling and all that process going through . And
25 I just wa nted to be totally honest wi th it .
158
1 Q Sure . Okay .
2 THE COURT : Well , we appreciate that .
3 Than k you. You may step down .
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : My immediate thought
7 on that was let ' s just put him on reserve. In
8 oth er words , we might get to 30 , but let ' s take a
9 few extras , like maybe 32 , 35, and then we can
10 kick him later? Or unless you want to just kick
11 him now.
12 THE COURT : Yeah . I -- I ' m not incl ined to
13 be taking any extras . Uh , Mr . Fremgen?
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge , I can ' t point
15 to any bias, but I would certainly think that
16 this would -- significant inconvenience , and I
17 respect the fact that we ' re -- we're bringing
18 t h is jury from another county , and I -- I -- I
19 don ' t know if it ' s necessarily an economic
20 hardship either , but I -- I think , from a
21 convenience standpoint , it would be fair to let
22 this jur o r, uh , be excu sed .
23 THE COURT : Well , the Court has some
24 reservations about how devoted , given what he
25 described his project as , his -- his, uh ,
159
1 participation in t he matter could be, and i t wil l
2 excuse him for cause . Next juror .

4 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: This is Juror 75,
5 Beverly Blankenshi p .
6 THE COURT : Be seated, Ms. Blankenshi p .

7 Good afternoon.
8 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: Good afternoon.
10 BY THE COURT :
11 Q All right. This is individual voir dire. I

12 described it a bit this morni ng in my , uh ,
13 remarks to the jury. Uh, I'm go ing to ask you
14 some questions, and then counsel may or may not
15 have some fol l ow-up questions.
16 This case, State vs. Brendan Dassey, has

17 received a substantial amount of publ icity . Have
18 you heard anything about this case?

19 A Minimal.

21 you heard?
22 A I -- I don't -- I don't know any of details of it . I
23 didn't read it in the paper. I didn't see it on TV.
24 Um
25 Q So there
160
1 A It would have been word of mouth.
2 Q So there ' s nothing substantial that sticks in
3 your mind about the case other than the name ,
4 perhaps?
5 A Not even the name, other than from what I had
6 received from you.
7 Q All right . So have you formed any opinion as to
8 this defendant 's guilt or i nnocence?
9 A I have not.
11 A No.
14 A No .
17 A No.
18 Q Have you, or has any close friend , or relative ,
19 ever been the victim of or witness to any kind of
21 or not?
22 A No .
23 Q Uh , specificall y, I'll narrow it to sexual
24 assaults . Uh , have you or a close relat ive ever
25 been the victim of a sexual assault?
161
1 A No .
2 Q Have you ever been arrested or charged with a
3 crime?
4 A No.
5 Q Has any close friend or relative ever been
6 arrested or charged with a crime of which you're

7 aware?
8 A No .
9 Q If you ' re selected as a juror in this matter, you
10 will be instructed that Brendan Dassey i s
13 had proven each element of each offense beyond a
14 reasonable doubt. If you were selected and that
15 instruction were given you, could you follow it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Likewise, another instruction, if you were
18 selected at a -- as a juror , would relate to his
23 at trial . If you were selected as a juror in
24 this case, could you follow that instruction?
25 A Yes.
162
1 Q All right .
7 Q The only question I have , uh, Ms. Blan kenship,
8 you mention in your questionna ire that you had
9 some concerns about family obligations with your
10 children?
11 A Well, I just have t hree children who are very active ,
12 and my husband travels periodically .
13 Q Do you -- would you be able to obtain , or have
14 you been able to obtain , some sort of, um
15 A I have family and -- I - - I mean , I have a network
16 underneath me that could certainly --
17 Q So tha t
18 A fi ll those obligat i ons.
19 Q That won't take away your attention d uring t he
20 trial knowing that you won't be able to be there
21 to offer whatever help and support of your kids?
22 A No , because I know t hat there's a network underneath
23 me that would be able to do that.
24 Q That's fine . Thank you .
25 THE COURT : Al l right . Thank you. You may
163
1 step down . Uh, just join t he judicial assistant ,
2 wait in the anteroom for just a second .
3 (Wherein j u ror is escorted out . )
4 THE COURT: Any mot ions?
7 THE COURT: She will be seated . Next
8 j uror , please .
9 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is Robert
10 Covington , number 77 .
11 THE COURT: Uh , good afternoon ,
12 Mr . Covington .
13 J UROR COVINGTON : Good afternoon , sir.
15 BY THE COURT :
16 Q I talked a bit this morning about something
17 called indivi dual voir dire . This is individual
18 voir di r e . I ' m go i ng to ask y ou s ome questions ,
19 and after I ' m done asking you those questions ,
20 the counsel out here may or may not have some
21 follow-up questions . You understand?
22 A Ye s , sir .
23 Q Have you been able to hear me rig ht now?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Have you had any problem at all?
164
1 A Urn , not you, but I do have a problem with hearing.
2 Q That' s why I'm asking . In your questionnaire,
3 you you talk about hearing loss, and -- and
4 I'm wondering, uh, if you have a problem hearing
5 me this afternoon?
6 A No, I don ' t have no problem.
7 Q Did you have any problem in the courtroom this
8 morning hearing -- hearing me?
9 A No, I didn't have no problem hearing you in the
10 courtroom, but I have a problem hearing her . She got
11 a -- a low tone voice. Right .
12 Q Okay. Okay. All right. Um, this case , the
13 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey, has
14 rece i ved a lot of publicity. Have you heard
15 anything about it?
16 A Well, uh , I heard a little about the , uh -- his
17 uncle, and then they had it in the paper yesterday .
18 Q All right. So I -- We'll do this in -- in -- in
19 two questions. You've heard about his uncle,
20 Steven Avery?
21 A Right.
22 Q Have you hear d anything about Brendan Dassey?
23 A Not until yesterday. I was reading the paper
24 yesterday and it was in the paper.
25 Q You saw something in the paper yesterday?
165
1 A Yes.
2 Q Based on what you saw in the paper, have you
3 formed any opinion as to wit wi t -- as to
4 whether Mr. Dassey is guilty or innocent?
5 A No, sir.
7 A No.
9 killed or -- uh , either accide ntally or
10 otherwise?
11 A No.
14 A No.
15 Q Uh, if you're called upon to serve as a juror in
16 this matter, can you disregard anyth i ng you may
17 have heard, uh, or read in the media, or from any
18 source , and decide t he case based only on the
19 evidence that is before you?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Have you, or any close rel -- friend, or
22 relat ive , ever been the victim of, a witness to ,
23 any kind of crime, whether it was reported to the
24 law enforcement or not?
25 A No.
166
1 Q Uh, specifically, have you, or a close friend , or
2 relative, been the victim of a sexual assault?
3 A No .
4 Q Have you , a close friend, or family member, ever
5 been arrested?
6 A No.
7 Q Uh , ever charged wi th a crime?
8 A No .
9 Q If you're selected as a -- a juror , you will be
14 reasonable doubt . Could you follow that
15 instruction?
16 A Yes.
17 Q There will be an additional instruction that will
18 say that Mr . Dassey has a constitutional right
19 not to testify in this case , and that if he
20 decides not to testify , you cannot hold that

21 against him . Rather, you must base your decision
22 solely on the evi dence introduced at trial.
23 Could you fol low that instruction?
24 A Yes.
167
1 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes, thank you. Um,
2 couple of questions.
5 Q Uh, good afternoon, Mr. Covington . Um , I see
6 from the questionnaire you've had an opportun ity
7 to serve our country in Vietnam?
8 A Uh , could you speak louder, please? I can ' t
9 Q All right . You're having a little hard time
10 heari ng me?
11 THE COURT : That mike doesn ' t seem to be
12 coming through the - -
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Really?
14 THE COURT : -- speaker system all that
15 well .
16 Q (By Attorney Fallon) I see from the
17 questionnaire you had an opportunity to serve in
18 Vietnam?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Is there anything about your service , uh , in
21 Vietnam, um, that makes you wonder whether you
22 would be able to , uh , fairly and impartially be a
23 juror in th is case?
24 A No .
25 Q Okay. Did you see any action in Vietnam?
168
1 A Yes. I was regular infantry soldier , and I was right
2 out in the woods.
3 Q Al l right. Um, is that where you may have
4 sustained some hearing loss?
5 A I don ' t know where I lost it at . Uh , in 1976 it
6 started to showing up that I had a hearing loss and
7 it was (unintelligible), you know , and it start to
8 getting a little worse and worse down the line .
9 Q Okay. And you estimate a -- a 20 percent loss at
10 this time?
11 A Uh , something like 20 percent, uh, 30 percent right
12 now. I just went to the VA Hospital and had it done
13 and i t 's right around, uh, 30 percent. But when I
14 got it done , it was around 20 percent. So it
15 deteriorated just a small amount now.
16 Q It - - it went from 30 to 20 percent or from 20 to
17 30?
18 A It went from -- I was about 20 when I got out of the
19 military, then it went to about 30 percent .
20 Q Okay . Um - - All right . Now, um, I -- I'm a
21 little confused by your answer to one question.
22 The Court asked you if you've ever been accused
23 or arrested for a crime, um, but you have been
24 arrested for a drunk driving; is that correct?
25 A I wasn't -- wasn't arrested, but I got a drunk
169
1 driving. Yes.
2 Q Okay. And, um, was that on two occasions or just
3 one?
4 A Say again, pleas e?
5 Q Was t hat on t wo occasions or just one occasion?
6 A On two occasions . Uh - -
7 Q Okay.
8 A Le t me explain how it happened now . One occasion, I
9 left wor k in the morning. I went to sleep by
10 relative's house, and they called the police, and we
11 got in a big confrontation right there . And I went
12 down, but I didn't blow positive, bu t I still got a
13 DUI.
14 The other case, a guy asked me to drink
15 some alcoh ol with him, a nd when I got in my car
16 to leave, he called the police on me . When I got
17 to work, (unintelligible) parking lot, the police
18 was sitting there waiting on me to c ome in there.
19 So , uh, well , i f you have a couple of b eers right
20 now you're going -- you' re going to blow
21 pos i tive . So, uh .. .
22 Q Okay. On -- on that second offense, did you have
23 to serve time in -- in the county jail?
24 A Say it aga in?
25 Q On -- on that second offense, did you have -- did
170
1 you have to serve time in the county jail ?
2 A I didn't go to jail.
5 THE COURT : Mr. Fremge n , anyth i ng?
8 Q Maybe just follow up on one question, Mr .
9 Covington?
10 A Sure .
11 Q If you were having any trouble hearing wi t ness e s,
12 or the attorneys, or even the Judge i n the tria l ,
13 would you have any problem stepping up or raisi ng
14 your hand indicating that you can ' t hear what ' s
15 going on?
16 A Uh , not where I work at is one t h i ng , but , uh, when I
17 was in mi litar y, I was going to school and I di d have
18 some problems with some of the instructors that was
19 going on and it ' s mostly females wit h a ve ry keen
20 voice . I can ' t pick it up that well.
21 Q So if that happens i n the trial , you ' re wi l ling
22 to te l l us that you can't hear?
23 A Well , it -- it all depends on who is giving out the
24 instructions .
25 Q Sure . Great . Thank you .
171
1 THE COURT : Just as a matter of course , we
2 have assisted devices for people who are
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Oh.
4 THE COURT : -- hearing impaired .
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay.
6 THE COURT : So , uh, they have them in here
7 and we -- we have them as well .
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: All right .
10 ATTORNEY FALLON : No.
11 THE COURT : You may step down . Thank you .
12 Just go with that lady over t he re , please.
13 (Whe re in juror is escorted out . )
14 THE COURT : Motions, if any?
15 ATTORNEY FALLON : Well, once again , I find
16 myself in a no-win situation . Um , in answer to
17 question 40 on the questionnaire , have you ever been
18 a suspect i n, arrested , or charged with a criminal
19 offense , admittedly , that's somewhat problematic .
20 He answered, no . He answered no to your question .
21 But according to t he information I have on a Robert
22 E . Covington, uh , born 7/22/42 , thi s gentleman has
23 been convicted of, uh, two d runk drivings. One in
24 ' 97 and one in ' 98 .
25 Urn, and I -- I ' m trying to sit here
17 2
1 thinking of a situation in which a second offense
2 would not be a crime and which not -- wh ich wou ld
3 not result in time in j ai l , and I can ' t thi nk of
4 it.
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Well, I can think of
6 one. I 'm sorry .
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: Go ahead .
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well , because I 've
9 act ual ly represented people in tha t situation where
10 the prosecuting office didn't know about the prior ,
11 and charged him with a first , and D. O. T . stil l lists
12 it as a second . I mea n , t hat could be the answer ,
13 but I don 't know that without Mr . Covington
14 answering any more quest ions.
15 THE COURT: And I can' t remember when the
16 mand atory time in jail became part of second offense
17 OW!.
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Oh , i t was well be fore

19 that .
20 THE COURT : Was it?
21 ATTORNEY FALLON : It was well before ' 97 .

22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Yeah .
23 THE COURT: All right. Well , based on
24 that , uh , Mr. Fallon, are you -- you moving what?
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: I - - I -- I ' m going to
173
1 move that he be struck for cause . And I -- I'm --
2 because I 'm also concerned about the hearing thing .
3 I understand you want -- you have devices, but I
4 didn't t hink that I was bei ng that soft in my
5 follow-up questions, and he was clearly having a
6 difficult time hearing me, and I am concerned about
7 the honesty of the answer.
8 I mean, the - - the whole point of this
9 questionnaire is to , um, uh -- to elicit honest
10 responses , and -- and have this, uh -- an honest
11 dialogue, especially in a , uh, more c lose setting
12 like this . How can we trust the rest of the
13 answers on the questionnaire?
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge , uh , well, I -- I
16 would object. Essential l y, I -- I don't think that
17 there is any of the norma lly , uh , recognized biases,
18 number one .
19 Uh , number two, I unders tand
20 Mr . Fallon's concern , but I don't think that ,
21 necessarily, this juror has answered any
22 questions falsely . When asked about being
23 arrested , he said he wasn't arrested .
24 Now, I -- maybe there should have been
25 further followup with what it is he con siders to
174
1 be arrested . You know, being pul l ed over versus
2 going to the jai l and being booked, uh , gett ing a
3 ticket versus the -- the f orma l process of - - of ,
4 a -- o f a normal arrest .
5 And the other , I -- I think the
6 Americans with Disabilities Act would certainly
7 not appreciat e us str iking someone simply for
8 having a 30 percent hearing l oss, and I -- and
9 I -- since the Court does have , uh , e quipment
10 that can dea l with t hat , I don't think that ,
11 necessarily , should be a reason .
12 ATTORNEY FALLON : I would note there is a
13 yea r- and-a-half between offense s. So it's -- I --
14 I -- I'm troubled by --
15 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : It may have been
16 the first one was set aside . (I naudible . )
17 THE COURT: Yeah. Well , he re , I - - I 've --
18 I've heard the discussion of counsel. I'm not goi ng
19 to excuse this
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: All right .
21 THE COURT : -- juror for cause . Uh ,
22 the, uh , expl anations he offered, uh , d on't
23 suggest to me any b i as. He may have been
24 mistaken , uh, inadvertently, advertently. But
25 nonetheless , I don't think it rises to the l evel
175
1 that he should be dismissed for cause and I won ' t
2 do it. Next juror .
3 ATTORNEY FALLON : Just for the record, we
4 will , uh , investigate further . We may renew that
5 motion later on .
6 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: Juror No . 80 ,
7 Cynthia Edge.
8 THE COURT : Good afternoon .
9 JUROR EDGE: Good afternoon .
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q Uh , I'm going to ask you a few questions as part
13 of this individual voir dire , and counsel may
14 have some follow-up questions . This case , the
15 State vs . Brendan Dassey , has received a lot of
16 publicity . Have you heard anything about it?
17 A Yeah .
18 Q From what sources have you heard things about it?
19 A Um, newspaper articles .
20 Q Anything on TV or the internet?
21 A Not really . No , not on the internet.
22 Q Just newspaper articles?
23 A Yeah .
24 Q Based on what you have read in newspaper
25 articles , have you formed any opinions about the
176
1 guilt or i nnocence of this defendant?
2 A No.
3 Q Have you discussed this case wi t h othe r s?
4 A No .
5 Q Have you had a family member o r a fr i e nd who was
7 A No.
8 Q Uh, have you, a family member, or a close frie nd,
9 ever ki lled anyone acc identall y or otherwise ?
10 A No .
11 Q If if you ' re called upon to serve as a juror
12 in this case , can you disregard anything that you
13 may have read or heard in the media, from any
14 source , and decide the case sol el y bas e d on the
15 evid ence that ' s before you ?
16 A Yes, I c an.
17 Q Have you, or any close friend , or relative , ever
18 been the vict i m of or a witness to any ki nd of
19 crime, whether it was reported to law enforcement
20 or not?
21 A No .
22 Q Speci ficall y, urn, sexual assault, have you, or a
23 rela t ive , or close frie nd, ever been victimi zed ,
24 uh --
25 A No.
177
1 Q -- as a sexual assault? Have you , a close
2 friend , or family member , ever been arrested?
3 A No .
4 Q If you're selected as a juror, you will be
7 any offense, u nless and until the State has
8 proved each element of every of tense beyond a
9 reasonable doubt. Could you fo l low this
10 instruction?
11 A Yes , I can.
12 Q There will be another instruction, if you ' re
13 selected as a juror, that Mr. Dassey has a
15 h e decides not to testify , you cannot hold that
16 him. Rather , you must base your decision solely
17 on the evidence offered at trial. Can you foll ow
19 A Yes , I can .
21 ATTORNEY FALLON : No questions .
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No questions .
24 THE COURT : Thank you. You may step down.
178
1 THE COURT : Any motions?
2 ATTORNEY FALLON : None .
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : None .
4 THE COURT : She will be seated . Next
5 person .
6 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror No. 83, Larry
7 Thornton .
8 THE COURT : Hi , Mr . Thorn ton, have a seat
9 if you would , please .
10 JUROR THORNTON: Thank you, Your Honor.
12 BY THE COURT :
13 Q I talked a little b i t about indivi dual voir dire
14 this morning in some general remarks to the jur y .
15 That ' s what this is now . I ' m going to ask you
16 some questions and cou nsel at counsel tab le may
17 have some follow- up questions of you.
18 This case , State vs . Brendan Dassey , has
19 received a significant amount of publicity . Have
20 you heard anything about it?
21 A Yes .
22 Q From what source did y o u hear?
23 A Well , television , newspapers .
24 Q Both those sources?
25 A Yes .
179
1 Q Based on what you have hea rd , have you formed any
2 opinion of guilt or innocence with respect to
3 Mr . Dassey?
4 A Not really .
5 Q Does "not really" mean no?
6 A No.
7 Q All right. Have you discussed this case with
8 anyone?
9 A No.

12 A No.
15 A No.
17 case, can you disregard anything you may have
18 heard or read in the me dia, or from any other
19 source, and decide the case based solely on the
20 evidence produced in court?
21 A Sure .
22 Q Have you, or has any close frie nd, or relative,
24 crime , whether it was r eported to the law
180
1 A No .
2 Q Specifically, have you had a close friend or
3 r elative , uh, who has been a victim of a sexual
4 assaul t?
5 A No .
6 Q Have you , or a close friend , or family member,
8 A My son was arrested once .
9 Q How long ago?
10 ATTORNEY FALLON : Sorry , I could not -- I
11 could not hear that answer .
13 JUROR THORNTON: I said my son was
14 arrested once for DWI.
15 Q (By the Court) For driving while under the
16 influence?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Uh, has that affected your , uh -- your attitude
19 toward law enforcement agencies either positively
20 or negatively?
21 A No .
22 Q If you are selected as a juror in this case , you
181
3 instruction?
4 A Yes .
5 Q Uh, likewise , you would be ins t ructed that
6 Mr. Dassey has a constitutional right not to

7 testify in thi s case, and that if he decides not
8 to testify , you cannot hold that against him .
9 Rather , you must bas e your decis i on solely on the
10 evidence i ntroduced at trial . Could you follow

11 t hat instruction as well?
12 A Yes , sir .
13 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon .

14 ATTORNEY FALLON : Just o ne moment , Judge .
15 I have just have one , um, ques tion .
17 BY MR. FALLON :
18 Q Mr. Thornton , you indicated one of your hobbies

19 is to, uh , go up north. Are you a hunter?
20 A No .
21 Q Um , where up north do you , uh , vacation?
22 A Post Lake . Elcho. Pickerel.
23 Q I' m sorry?
24 A Post Lake. Pickerel .
25 Q Post Lake. Is that Ant igo County? Uh , I mean ,
182
1 uh , Langlade Count y?
2 A Yes .
3 Q All rig h t . That' s all I have . Thanks .
4 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen , anything?
7 Q Uh , Mr. Thornton , you indicated your son had been
8 arres t ed for OWI once?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Was he convicted of that crime also?
11 A Well , he -- Yes .
12 THE COURT : Well , I -- I don't know that it
13 wa s --
14 JUROR THORNTON : It wasn ' t a crime .
15 THE COURT : Yeah . It wasn ' t a cri -- I
16 don ' t know that it ' s a crime .
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I -- I said the
18 offense .
19 THE COURT : You said " crime" .
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Oh , did I? I'm
21 sorry .
22 Q (By Attor ney Fremgen) I meant offense .
23 A Okay .
24 Q Uh , do you think that that was an appropriate
25 conviction based upon what you know or what he
183
1 might have shared with you?
2 A No . It was appropriate. I didn 1 t have any problem
3 with it.
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Nothing else.
5 THE COURT: Thanks, Mr . Thornton. You may
6 step down and go with the judicial assistant ,
7 please.
9 THE COURT : Any motions , gentlemen?
12 THE COURT : Al l right. He' ll be seated.
13 Uh, next juror .
14 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : This is Juror 85 ,
15 Heidi Anderson.
16 THE COURT : Hi , Ms. Anderson, have a chair .
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you .
19 BY THE COURT:
20 Q Uh , this is individual voir dire . I talked a
21 little bit about it this morning .
22 A Um-hmm.
23 Q I'm going to ask you some que stions. When I'm
24 done ask -- asking you questions , counsel may or
25 may not have some follow -up questions, okay?
184
1 A Okay.
2 Q This case, State vs. Brendan Dassey , has received
3 a lot of publicity. Have you heard anything
4 about it?
5 A Honestly, no, not really .
6 Q All right . You rea l ly know nothing about it?
7 A I leave for work at 6 : 30 in the morning. I work a
8 second job, so I usually don't get home until 9 : 30 at
9 night, and then I go straight to bed . I live alone,
10 so I don't get a newspaper because it ' s n ot worth it
11 because I 'm not home . So the little news I get is on
12 the r adio and that's usua lly puff pieces.
13 Q And so you -- and you haven't heard anything on
14 the radio about this?
15 A No.
16 Q All right. You've never discussed this case with
17 anyone , have you?
18 A No, I have not.
19 Q Have you had a fami l y member or a friend who was
21 A I had a cousin, before I was born, who was murdered,
22 but, like , I never knew him and I have no idea of
23 what the proceedings were done - -
24 Q Was --
25 A -- with him .
185
1 Q I ' m sorry. Go on .
2 A He was 1 7 years older than me . So he was running
3 away f rom h ome, and I don't know what happened . The
4 exact story. I j ust heard in the past .
5 Q So are you aware if someone was charged with a
6 crime or not?
7 A Honestly , I'm not aware. No.
8 Q Have you, a fami l y member, or a close frie nd,
10 A No.
11 Q Have you , a family member, close friend , or
12 relative , ever been the victim of or a witness to
13 any kind of crime, and I'm exc luding here the --
14 the one that you've already mentioned, whether it
15 was reported to law e nforcement or not?
16 A Other than, like, traffic crimes , you know , like car
17 accidents , no.
18 Q Were some of you victims of, uh , car accidents?
19 A I was hit once in my car on my way to college , um,
20 and then another time I was walki ng a nd I was hit by
21 a car . Neither case went to court . You know , I we nt
22 to the hospital , got my injuries taken care of, and
23 that was that .
24 Q Ha s that experience , or those experiences , have
25 any effect on your attitude toward law
186
1 enforcement, positive or negative?
2 A Real l y, no. I mean, I felt they did their job quite
3 adequately and everything got handled so ...
4 Q Uh , have you, or a close friend, or re l ative ,
5 ever been the victim of a sexual assau l t?
6 A No.
7 Q Have you, a close friend, or family member, ever
8 been arrested?
9 A Not that I'm aware of. No.
10 Q If you were selected as a juror in this case ,
11 you -- you would be instructed that Mr . Dassey i s
13 guilty of a ny offense, un less and until the State
15 reasonable doubt. As a juror, could you f o l low
16 those instructions?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Likewise, uh, if you were selected as a juror,
19 you would be instructed that Mr. Dassey has a
20 constitutional r i ght not to testify in this case ,
24 at trial . Could you follow that instruction as
25 well?
187
1 A Of course .
2 Q All right.
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No questions.
7 THE COURT: You may step down . Thank you.
8 JUROR ANDERSON : Thank you.
9 (Wherein j uror is escorted out .)
10 THE COURT: Motions, if any?
13 THE COURT: All right. She will be seated.
14 Ne xt juror.
15 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: Juror No. 86,
16 Nicholas Dre ws en.
17 THE COURT : Good afternoon, Mr. Drews en .
19 BY THE COURT :
20 Q This is individual voir dire. You heard me talk
21 a little bit about it this morning in the
22 courtroom. I 'm going to ask you a few questions,
23 and then counsel may or may not h ave fol --
24 f ollowup to -- to those questions. Excuse me .
25 Uh, this case , State vs. Brendan Dassey,
188
1 has received a lot of publicity. Have you heard
3 A Yes.
4 Q From what source did you learn whatever it is
5 that you've heard?
6 A Newspapers and , uh, TV.

7 Q Based on what you've read and what you've heard,
8 have you formed any opinions about the guilt or
9 innocence of Mr . Dassey?
10 A No.
11 Q Have you discussed this case wi t h other people?

12 A No.
13 Q If you are called to serve as a juror in this

15 read or hea rd in the media , or from any other
16 source, and decide this case based only on t he

18 A I be lieve so .
19 Q Uh, have you had a family member or a friend who
20 was kill e d accidentally or otherwise?

21 A No.
22 Q Uh, have you, a f amily member , or a clos e fri end,
23 ever ki lled anyone accidentall y or othe r wi se?

24 A No.
25 Q Ha ve you, or close friend, or relative, ever been
189
1 the victim of or a witness to any kind of crime ,
2 whether it was reported to law enforcement or
3 no t?
4 A No .
5 Q Specifically, uh , have -- do you have any close
6 friends or relatives who ' s been the victim of
7 sexual assault?
8 A No .
9 Q Have you , a close family member , or friend , uh ,
11 A No .
13 wi ll be instru cted t ha t the defendant , Brendan
14 Dassey , is presumed innocent and that he cannot
15 be found guilty of any offense , unl ess and until
16 the State has proved each element of each offense
17 beyond a reasonable doubt . Could you follow that
18 instruction?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Uh, you will also be inst ructed that Brendan
21 Dassey has a constitutional right not to testify
22 in this case , a nd that if he decides not to
23 testify, you cannot hold that against him . But ,
24 rath e r , you have to base your decision solely on
25 the e vide nce introduced at trial. Can you follow
190
2 A Yes .
3 THE COURT: Mr . Fallon ?
4 ATTORNEY FALLON: I have no questions .
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Uh , no questions .

7 THE COURT : Thank you . You may step down .
8 (Whe r e i n juror is escorted out . )
9 THE COURT : Any motions , gent l emen ?
12 THE COURT : All r ight . Mr . Drewsen may be
13 seated . Uh , next juror.
14 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror 112 , Renee
15 Schmi t t.
16 THE COURT : Good afternoon, Ms. Schmitt .
17 Be seated if you would , please .
19 BY THE COURT :
20 Q Uh, t his i s individual voir dire . You heard me
21 talk about it a little bit this morning . I'm
22 goi ng to ask you some quest ion s. Counsel may or
23 may not have followup to thos e ques t ions .

24 In this case , the State vs . Brendan
25 Dassey, has generated a substantial amount o f
191
1 publicity. What , if anything , have you heard
2 about it ?
3 A I haven't heard anything. I never even heard the

4 first -- his name before I got the juror
5 questionnaire.
6 Q So up until that time you were entirely

7 unfamiliar with it?
8 A Completely unfamiliar.
9 Q All right. So is it fair to say -- Well , have
10 you formed any opinions about his guilt or
11 innocence?
12 A No , I -- I -- no idea about anything.
14 was kil led accidentally or otherwise?

15 A No .
16 Q Uh, have you , a family member, or a close friend,

17 ever kil l ed anyone accidentally or otherwise?
18 A No .
19 Q Have you, or a close friend, relat ive , or family
20 member, ever been the victim of or a witness to

21 any kind of crime , whether it was reported to law
23 A No.
24 Q Specifically, have you, close frie nd, or
25 relative , ever been sexually assaulted?
192
1 A No.
2 Q Have you, close family member, or friend , ever
3 been arrested?
4 A No.
5 Q Charged with any crime?
6 A No.
8 will be instructed that Brendan Dassey's presumed
10 any offense , un l ess and until the State has
11 proved each element of each offense be yond a

12 reasonable doubt . If you're selected as a juror,
13 can you follow that instruction?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Uh, there will be an additi onal instruction wh ich
16 will tell you that Mr. Dassey has a

17 constitutional right not to t estify in this case,
18 and if he decides not to testify, you cannot hol d

19 that against him. Rather, you must base your
20 decis i on solely on the evidence introduced at

21 tria l. Can you follow that instruction?
22 A Yes, I can.
23 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon, any questions?

193
3 Go wi th the judicial assistant .
5 THE COURT : Motions , if any?
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No.
7 THE COURT: She wi ll b e seated . Next
8 juror.
9 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror 120 . J u ror
10 Michelle Hayman Ware .
11 THE COURT : Hi .
12 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: Hi.
13 THE COURT : Are you Do yo u want to keep
14 your jacket on or take it off?
15 JUROR HEIMEN WARE : Keep i t on .
16 THE COURT : All right.
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q Oh, this is individual voir dire. I tal ked a
20 little bit about it this morning. I ' m going to
21 ask you some questions. Counsel may or may not
22 hav e some f ollow-up q u estions.
23 Uh, this case , the State vs . Brendan
24 Dassey , has received a lot of publici t y. What ,
25 if anything , have you heard about it?
194
1 A Um, I ' ve seen a couple newscasts on it, and I -- I
2 don ' t think I read very much in the newspaper , but
3 I 've seen it on the news .

4 Q Based on what you ' ve seen on the news , have you
5 formed any opinions about the guilt or innocence
6 of Mr . Dassey?
7 A Um, no.
8 Q Have you discussed the case with anyone e l se?
9 A No .

12 A No .
13 Q Uh , have you , a family member , or a close friend ,

15 A No .
16 Q If you're called upon to serve on this jury, can

17 you disregard anything you may have heard or read
18 in the media, or from any other source , and
19 decide the case based solely on the evidence that
20 you hear in court?

21 A Yes .
22 Q Have you , or any close friend , or re l ative , been
23 the victim of or witness to any kind of cri me ,

24 whether it was reported to law enforcement
195
1 A No.
2 Q Uh , specifically , have you , or any good friend ,
3 or a r elati v e , b een the v ictim of a sexua l
4 assaul t ?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you , a - - a close friend , or family member ,
7 ever been c h arged with a crime?
8 A No .
9 Q Arrested for anything ?
10 A No .
11 Q If you ' re selected as a juror in this case ,
12 you ' ll be instructed that Mr . Dass e y is presumed
13 i n nocen t a n d t h a t h e c a nnot be f ound guil t y o f
14 any offense , un less and until the State has
15 proven every element of each offense beyond a
17 j u ror in this case , would you be able to follow
18 that instruction ?
19 A Yes .
20 Q There will be an additional instruction t hat will
21 tell you that Mr . Dassey has a const itutiona l
22 right not t o testify in t h is case , and that if h e
24 against him . Rath e r , you must base your decision
25 so l el y on the e vidence introduced a t tri a l . As a
196
1 juror , could you follow that instruction?
2 A Yes .
3 THE COURT: Mr. Fal l on , any q uestions?
5 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen.
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Just a few.
9 Q Um , I'm sorry , do you go by Hayman Ware, or Ware?
10 A Either one is fine .
11 Q Okay. Miss -- Mrs . Ware , you ' re -- you noted in
12 your questionnaire that your husband's car has
13 been broken into before?
14 A Um, yeah . I'm trying to think . Yes . Yes.
15 Q And wa s something taken from that vehicle?
16 A Yes . That was prior to me knowing him.
17 Q Oh. Okay . So it wasn't anything that happened
18 during y our relationship?
19 A No .
20 Q Now, were you aware of the Avery case? In your
21 questionnaire , you indicated you were a ware of
22 the verdict?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Were you a ware of any of the details in that
25 case?
197
1 A Um, not -- No, not really. Just what I saw on the
2 news.
3 Q Did you - - Okay. Did you ever discuss that case

4 with your husband who happens to be a police
5 officer?
6 A No.
7 Q You indicated in your ques t ionnaire that you work
8 closely with the District Attorney's Office?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you fee l that that relationship -- Obviously,

11 you don't work with Mr. Fallon or Mr.
12 A Right.
13 Q -- Kratz . Do you feel that that relationship
14 with prosecutors would, uh , impact on your

15 ability to be fair to both sides?
16 A No.
17 Q What -- what kind of work, uh, as -- You're a
18 social worker ; correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q What' s the i nteraction between the D.A. ' s Office

21 that you ' re usually involve d in?
22 A Um, I do child welfare, so, um, my off ice , the Dane
23 County Department of Human Services petitions, um,
24 the c ourt for involvement, and that petition goes
25 through the District Attorne y's Office . So when
198
1 we're in court , um , we're often aligned with t he
2 District Attorney ' s Office i n that situation , but at
3 the same time, I also work with clients who are being
4 defended . Um, so I'm kind of on both sides of
5 things .
6 Q You -- you don't then work wi th , for instance ,
7 juvenile delinquencies?
8 A Um , no. Actually, I -- I work with child welfar e
9 stric strictly right now.
10 Q Thank you .
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Nothing else .
14 THE COURT : Thank you . You may step down .
15 (Wherei n juror is escorted out.)
16 THE COURT : Mot ions , gentlemen, if any?
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: None.
19 THE COURT : She will be seated. Um , next
20 juror , please.
22 Janeen Running.
23 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Ms. Running .
24 JUROR RUNNING : Good afternoon.
199
1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q Uh , t h is is individual voir dire . I talked a
3 little b i t about i t thi s morning in -- in the

4 other courtroom . I ' m goi ng to ask you a few
5 questions . Counsel may or may not have fol low-up
6 questions to ask you .
7 This case , State of Wiscons i n vs .
8 Brendan Das s ey , has r eceived a subs t antial amount
9 of publ icity . What , if anythi ng , have you heard
10 about the case?
11 A I haven ' t -- All I ' ve heard is recently on t he news
12 saying that t he jurors were being picked and , um, you
13 know, this happeni ng i n Dane County , that type of
14 th i ng .
15 Q And that ' s really it?
16 A The more that I had heard on the news , you know, was
17 the earlier t rial that took place . I really haven't
18 heard any , uh , information on this one .
19 Q And by " earlier trial '' you're referring to the
20 trial of Steven Avery?
21 A Right .
22 Q Uh , b ased on what you, uh , have heard and ,
23 apparently, that ' s not very much , have you formed
24 any opinions about the guilt or innocence of
25 Brendan Da ssey?
200
1 A No.
2 Q Have you had any family member or friend who was
4 A No.
5 Q Have you, a fami ly member, or a close friend ,

7 A No.

10 heard, uh, or read in the media, or from a ny
11 other source, and decide this case based solely

12 on the evidence that ' s produced in court?
13 A Yes.

15 been arrested?
16 A No.
17 Q Anybody charged with a crime? Close friend,
18 fami ly member?
19 A No.
20 Q Uh, have you, or a close friend , or a relative ,

22 A (No verbal response.)

23 Q Is that no?
24 A No.
201
7 that instruction?
8 A Yes.
9 Q There would be another instruction , and that
10 would tell you that Mr. Dassey has the
14 your decision solely on the evidence produced at
15 trial. As a juror, would you b e able to follow
17 A Yes.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon , any questions?
22 THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: I 'll make a copy of
25 t h is later , Judge , a nd --
202
1 THE COURT : Sure.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON : give the originals
3 back.
4 THE COURT : I thought we actually had an
5 extra copy , but we'll talk about that
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : All right. I -- I --
7 I think it was left in Mr . Kratz's office, and a
8 portion of the papers are in the room here , and
9 that's why I didn't get a copy .
10 THE COURT : Any motions, gentlemen?
13 THE COURT: Next juror, please.
14 ATTORNEY FALLON: When are we planning
15 on the afternoon break, Judge?
16 THE COURT: Uh, three o ' clock?
17 ATTORNEY FALLON : Good.
18 THE COURT: I If someone, for one
19 reason or another, has an earlier suggestion,
20 I -- Court would certainly be happy to
21 accommodate .
22 ATTORNEY FALLON : So far , the cold seems
23 to be in - - in abeyance.
24 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: Juror No . 125, Judy
25 Orth .
203
1 THE COURT : Good afternoon, Ms. Orth .
2 JUROR ORTH : He llo .
4 BY THE COURT :
5 Q This is individual voir dire . I tal ked a litt l e
6 bi t about it this morning. I'm going to ask you
7 some questions . Counsel a t counsel table may or
8 may not have some follow-up questions t o ask of
9 you.
10 A Okay .
11 Q This case , State of Wiscon sin v s . Brendan Dassey,
12 has r eceived a substantial amount of publicity.
13 Ha ve you heard anything about it?
14 A Just some on the news news and the ne wspapers .
15 Q No substantial amount
16 A No .
17 Q -- of things?
18 A No . No.
19 Q Based on what you have heard, have you formed any
20 opinions abou t the guilt or innocence of this
21 defendant?
22 A No.
23 Q Have you d i scussed this case with anyone?
24 A No.
25 Q Have you h ad a family member or a frie nd who was
204
2 A Not a direct family member , no.
3 Q Di rect close friend?

4 A No , not -- not close .
5 Q All right . Have , uh, you, a family member, or a
6 close frie nd, ev.e r killed anyone accidentally or

7 otherwise?
8 A No.
10 been the victim of or wi tness to any kind of
11 crime , whether it was reported to law e nforcement

12 or not? No?
13 A No .
14 Q Specifically, have you, or a close friend , or

15 relative , been the victim of a sexual assault?
16 A A --
17 Q Sexual assault?
18 A A friend or a family?
19 Q Yes .
20 A Yes .
21 Q And t hat would be a friend or whi ch?
22 A Family .
23 Q Family member?
24 A Um-hmm.
25 Q Close famil y member?
205
1 A Yes.
2 Q Uh, was the person who perpetrated the assault
3 prosecuted?
4 A No.
5 Q Was the event ever reported to the l aw
6 enforcement authorities?
7 A It was reported because it -- it ended up going to ,
8 um, therapy, and t he therapist had t o report it to
9 the authorities .
10 Q Based on what occurred, did that affect, in
11 either a positive or negative way, your attitude
12 toward law enforcement?
13 A No .
14 Q Does it give you any special ki nd of feeling
15 about sexual assaults in general?
16 A No.
18 been charged with a cri me?
19 A No.
21 will be instructed that Mr. Dassey is presumed
22 innocent and he cannot be found guilty of any
23 offense, unless and until the State has proven
25 doubt. Could you follow that instruction?
206
1 A Um-hmm.
2 Q Yes?
3 A Yes.
4 Q We can' t nod or say --
5 A Oh .
6 Q -- um-hmm, because she ' s --
7 A All right.
8 Q -- ta k i n g all of this down .
9 A Sorry .
10 Q If you ' re selected as a juror , you also would be
11 instructed that, uh, Mr . Dassey has a
12 cons t i t utional r i ght not to testify , and that if
13 he decides not to testify , you c a n ' t h old t h at
14 against him. Instead, you ' re going to have to
15 base your decision solely on the evidence
16 introduced at trial . Could you do that?
17 A Yes .
18 THE COURT : Mr . Fallon , any q uest i ons?
19 ATTORNEY FALLON : Um, just , um ,
20 followup.
23 Q On the assaul t issue , I b elieve I thi nk you
24 indicated in your questionnaire that yo u r
25 daughter was the victim?
207
1 A Yes.
2 Q And -- and it was a -- a nephew of yours?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Was that , um, a famil y decision, then, not to
5 report it and just seek intervention through
6 counseling?
7 A It was just -- it came up through , um -- my daughter
8 actually went to my sister, who told her about it,
9 and then my sister told me about what happened
10 Q Right .
11 A -- and I felt that it was important that my daughter
12 see a therapist just to, you know, make sure nothing
13 was going on. I wanted to make sure she had the
14 openness to talk to somebody, and when I went to the
15 therapist, that's when it was reported .
16 Q Right. Because they had a legal obligation to
17 repo r t ?
18 A Correct.
19 Q All right. Did -- did you feel somehow, urn --
20 did you or your family -- did you feel somehow ,
21 uh , let down by the system?
22 A No.
23 Q In other words, if you wanted it reported, you
24 could have reported it yourselves but ...
25 A Right . No, we weren't let down at all .
208
1 Q Okay .
2 A I thought she did a very good job.
3 Q All right. And, apparent ly , there was no, um,
4 follow- up intervention by social services or --
5 or l a w enforcement after it was reported?
6 A Um, we had some deputies come to the hou se and just
7 ta lk to my daughter a litt le bit to get more
8 information as to how severe it was.
9 Q Right .
10 A But that was it .
11 Q Okay. And do you feel that situation was handled
12 professionally?
13 A Yes.
14 Q All right. And it left y ou and your fa mily with
15 no ill fee l ings t o law enforcement for making
16 this intrusion into your family?
17 A No. No. I understood why they did it.
18 Q Okay. Oh, um -- That's it. Thanks.
19 THE COURT : Mr. Fremgen, anythi ng ?
22 Q Um, Mrs . Orth, one of the questions that the
23 Judge asked you about that incident was whether
24 it had an impact , negatively, uh, i n regards to

25 your perspec -- u h , perception of law
209
1 enforcement . Did it have any impact on your ,
2 um -- your feelings towards people t hat commit
3 crimes?
4 A No. No .
5 Q Did you have -- And you said that you thought i t
6 was pretty -- ha ndled fa irly and professionally?
7 A Yes .
8 Q What about -- This was your nephew that was t he
9 sus -- you know, the person who did this?
10 A Cor rect.
11 Q Did, uh Do you h a v e any hard feelings about
12 your about your nephew?
13 A Uh, at first, yeah . Probably for the first mont h or
14 so because it -- it , you know, put a dent in the
15 family for a l i ttle bit, but after that it -- things
16 got wo rked out. Things were fine .
17 Q So you, togethe r as a family , worke d through a ll
18 that?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Nothing else.
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: May I fol low up that?
24 Q How old was your nephew when this happened?
25 A My nephew was 14.
210
1 Q And your daughter was how o l d?
2 A She was six .
3 Q Okay. Thanks.
4 THE COURT: All right. You may step dow n .
5 Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Motions, if any?
10 THE COURT : She will be seated . Next
11 juror.
13 Jane McGuire.
14 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Ms . McGuire.
15 JUROR McGUIRE: Good afternoon.
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q This is individual voir dire. I talked a little
19 bit about it this morning. I 'm going to ask you
20 some questions. Counsel may or may not have some
21 fol low-up questions based on your answers.
22 Um, this case, State vs. Brendan Dassey,
23 has received a substantial amount of publicity.
24 Have you heard anything about it?
25 A Yes.
211
1 Q Uh, from what source did you learn whatever it is
2 you heard?
3 A Uh, newspaper and TV news .

4 Q Based on what you have heard , have you formed any
5 opinions about this defendant's guilt or
6 innocence.
7 A Urn, I am aware that there was a confession and then a
8 recant .
9 Q All right . Based on the fact that you're aware
10 that there was a confession and a recantation,
11 have you formed any opinions about his guilt or
12 innocence?
13 A I don ' t know.
14 Q All right . Have you discussed this case with
15 others?
16 A Um, only in the realm of -- of, you know, when it's
17 appeared in the news, you know, before, and then just
18 the fact I had to let my employer know that I had to
19 be gone for, you know , jury duty.
20 Q So there's no in-depth discussion with anyone
21 else?
22 A Even before I was called for jury duty , you know , in
23 passing , we had talked about the previous case . I

24 mean, that's just nature because it was a high
25 profile case.
212
1 Q Uh , previous case you're refe rring to State vs.
2 Steven Avery?
3 A Yes .
4 Q Uh, if you had formed any opinions about the
5 guilt or innocence of the de fenda nt, could you
6 set those opinions aside and judge this case

7 solely on the evidence that's presented in court?
8 A I thi nk so.
9 Q You believe you could do that?
10 A I think so. Yes .
11 Q You -- you unde rstand , we're -- we 're looking for

12 fair and impartial jurors?
13 A Um-hmm .
14 Q You will be instructed on t he -- the l aw by the
15 Court , but you wil l be the judge of the facts as
16 a juror, you understand that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Would you be able to render any decision as a
19 juror based on the facts that you see in court
20 and the law as t he Court instructs you?
21 A Yes. I believe so .
24 A No.
25 Q Uh, h ave you , a famil y member , or a close friend ,
213
1 ever killed anyone accidentally --
2 A No.
3 Q - - or otherwi s e? Have you , or has a ny close

4 friend of you rs , ever been the victim of or a
5 witness to any kind of crime , whether it was
6 reported to law enforcement authorities or not?

7 A Yes.
8 Q And who was that?
9 A My parents recently had their , um , vehicle stolen
10 from t heir garage while they we re home.
11 Q All right. Your parents had a car taken

12 A Um- hmm .
13 Q -- from them ; i s t hat cor rect?
14 A Theft . Um-hmm .
15 Q Uh , did the police do a follow-up investigation
16 of that theft?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Anyt hi ng the police do , uh , affect your attitude
19 toward them , positively, negatively?
20 A No. They did their job appropriately.

21 Q They did . All right . Have you, or a close
22 friend , or relative , ever been the victim of a
23 sexual assault?
24 A No . Not to my knowledge.
214
1 ever b een arrested?
2 A No.
3 Q Charged with a crime?
4 A No.
5 Q If you're selected as a juror in this case, you
6 will be instructed that Brendan Dassey i s
9 has proved each element of each offense beyond a
11 instruction?
12 A Yes .
13 Q You would also be instructed that Mr . Dassey has
14 a constitutional right not to testify if he so
15 chooses, and if he does not testify at the trial ,
16 that you cannot hold that against him. Rather,
17 you would have to base your decision solely on
18 the evidence that's introduced at at trial.
19 Could you follow that instruction as well?
20 A Yes.
215
1 Q Mrs. McGuire, when we're talking about an
2 opinion , obviously , understand we're asking you
3 if you have an opinion as to Brendan's guilt or

4 innocence now?
5 A Um-hmm .
6 Q Correct? Correct?
7 THE COURT: You have to say yes --
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Sorry .
9 THE COURT: or no.
10 A Do I have a n opinion of his guilt or innocence
11 presently? Or is that the --

12 Q (By Attorney Frerngen) Yes .
13 A -- question? I guess I would have to say , yes, I do
14 have an opinion on that.

15 Q Okay . Wha t ' s that opinion?
16 A Urn, because of what I have read regarding the
17 confession and -- and the recant , I -- I would say
18 I -- I formed somewhat of an opinion towards guilt .
19 Q And -- and a lot of it you j ust mentioned because
20 of what you ' ve read?

21 A Correct .
22 Q Obviously, you haven 't seen a ny evidence yet;
23 correct?
24 A Correct .
25 Q You didn ' t go watch any of the Steven Avery
216
1 trial, for instance?
2 A I ' ve seen things in the paper , but I -- you know, I
3 didn't seek it out. I was just, you know, thr ough
4 the normal news watching and readi ng the paper daily .
5 Q Sure . You weren't in attendance , though , is what
6 I'm
7 A No. No. No.
8 Q And, obviously , because we're here picking a
9 jury, there hasn't been a trial yet for Brendan ;
10 correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q So , um, I I -- I think one of the questions
13 the J udge is asking about, whether you can set
14 aside the opinion and consider the evidence , is
15 you can , despite your opinion , honestly say , I
16 can presume Brendan is innocent right now and
17 I'll wait to hear what actually is introduced in
18 trial? You can do that?
19 A I don ' t know that I can honestly answer that I could.
20 Q So your honest answer woul d be you don't know?
21 A I don ' t know .
22 Q Okay . I have nothing else .
24 BY THE COURT :
25 Q Let me j us t follo w up the ir followup .
217
1 A Um-hmm.
2 Q You 've heard some things about this case and,
3 apparently, the case of Mr . Avery; correct?
4 A Correct .
5 Q What I'll ask you , and I'm -- I certainly touched
6 upon this before, is can you set aside what you
7 have heard and j udge this case as a juror solely
8 on the evidence that is presented in court?
9 A Yes , I believe I could .
10 THE COURT: All right . I have nothing
11 further . You may step down . Thank you .
12 (Wherein j uror is escorted out.)
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I 'd, uh, ask the
16 Court to move to strike for cause. Uh, again , the
17 issue is whether she can, uh -- whether t his juror
18 is unequivocally impartial . That, essentially, goes
19 to whether they can say to this Court, I am able to
20 be fair , and despite the last question by the Court ,
21 I don ' t -- I think there was certainly equivocation ,
22 especially even on the first set of the questions by
23 the Court, her answers to the question of whether
24 she had an opinion as , I don't know, and whe ther she
25 can set aside the opinion as , I think so , there
218
1 isn ' t a defini te that , I absolutely can.
2 And as to my questions trying to get
3 more into what is t he opinion , where ' d she obtain

4 that opinion , and can you absol utely set that
5 aside, her answer to me was , I honestly don't
6 know, and -- and -- and again, I unders tand what

7 the Court was attempting to do and rehabilitate
8 the -- the juror with the last question , it
9 doesn't rehabilitate the issue of i s she
10 unequivocal willing to be fair .
11 I -- I -- I shouldn't say it that way . I

12 think they're all willing to be fair . I think ,
13 based upon her answers, c l early, there's
14 equivocation on that issue, and I would ask the
15 Court to strike that juror.
16 ATTORNEY FALLON : We would oppose,
17 Judge. Um , I'm not sure if Counsel is accurately
18 stating the , uh , guiding principle here ,
19 because -- because I ' m not sure you can have
20 anyone who's totally , absolutely, unequivocal
21 about their responses once they've actually been
22 exposed to some information, uh, in the publ i c
23 domain , and , again , I come back to tha t - - the
24 comments I made earlier on, it ' s -- it ' s will you
25 decide the case on t h e evidence which is
219
1 presented.
2 I 'm not concerned so much that t hey have
3 an opinion. I mean , most p e ople who are informed
4 about news events have opinions on it . We all
5 have opinion s . We have opinions on the war. We
6 have t he opinions on -- on health . We have
7 opinions on the economy . But not -- none of us
8 are fully i nformed on all of those , but we're
9 open to an argument and a reason and a
10 presentation of argument , and I -- I think that's
11 all we can ask .
12 THE COURT : I -- I understand . Here ,
13 Mr. Fremgen, I don't think t h ere is a test of
14 unequivocal impartiality that -- that need be made
15 here. I think State vs. Erickson at 227 Wi s . 2d 758
16 says exactly that , uh , and I don't believe , based on
17 what I saw here or heard here today , that I could
18 find any subject i ve bias ei t her .
19 Uh, I -- the -- the objective bias would
20 go to how ingrained the opinion was. The
21 subjective bias would go to t h e willingn ess of
22 the prospective juror to , uh, react to testimon y .
23 I listened to this prospective juror , and , uh ,
24 wh ile s he may have heard and read , uh, matters,
25 she is -- is willing to set aside or , as she
22 0
1 said , try to set aside , and in a -- in a manner
2 that -- that I find entire ly compatible with what
3 I understand to be the, uh, qualification
4 standards here .
5 Thus, I ' m going to deny your motion.
6 We'll seat her. Next juror .
7 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror No. 128 ,
8 Tamara Lowery .
9 THE COURT: Good afternoon , Ms. Lowery .
10 JUROR LOWERY : Hello.
11 THE COURT: Feel free to take your coat
12 off and put it on the desk or keep it on .
13 However you choose .
15 BY THE COURT :
16 Q This is individual voir dire. I 'm going to ask
17 you a few questions, and based on those questions
18 you may or may not have some follow-up questions
19 from counse l at , uh, those -- those tables .
20 A Okay.
21 Q Uh, this is the State of Wi sconsin vs. Bre nda n
22 Dassey, a nd its received a substantial a mount of
24 A Ye s .
25 Q Uh , from what sourc e did you - -
2 21
1 A Um
2 Q get t his information?
3 A TV .
4 Q Television?
5 A Um- hmm. Yes .
6 Q Uh, newspapers?
7 A TV.
8 Q Just TV . Based on what you have heard , have you
9 formed any opinions about t h e guilt or innocence
10 of Mr. Dassey?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you discussed this case wi th anyone?
13 A No.
14 Q Have y ou h ad a fami ly memb er or a friend who was
15 killed acciden tally or otherwi se?
16 A No.
17 Q Have you , a family membe r, o r a close friend ,
18 ever kill e d anyone acciden tall y or otherwi se?
19 A No.
21 matter , could you disregard a n ything that
22 you've - - you've, uh, heard or read i n the media ,
23 or from any other source , and decide the case
24 solely base d on the evidence that you hear in
25 court?
222
1 A Yes.
2 Q Have you, or has any close friend, or rela -- or
3 relative, ever been the victim of or a witness to
4 any kind of crime, whether it was reported to law
6 A Yes.
7 Q Who would that be, ma'am?
8 A Um, couple family members. Uh, like car accidents,
9 things like that maybe .
10 Q All right. Specifically, I 'm -- I 'm thin king
11 here of crimes, and car accidents may, in some
12 instances , be crimes. But, crimes? Anybody?
13 A Can you repeat that question one more time?
14 Q Sure. Have you, or any close friend, or
15 relative , ever been the victim of or a --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- witness wi tness to any kind of crime?
18 A Um-hmm. Yes.
19 Q You have. And who is that and what kind of
20 crime?
21 A Um, I had a battery, urn, with a former - - former
22 spouse kind of thing. Yeah . Like a domestic --
23 Q And --
24 A - - victim of a domestic. Me. Myself.
25 Q You were the victim of domestic --
223
1 A Um-hmm.
2 Q And t h is was an ex-husband?
3 A Ye ah .
4 Q Was h e arrested ?
5 A Yes .
6 Q Charged?
7 A I ' m not sure a bout that , but -- I don't know .
8 Q Was he punished?
9 A Uh , I ' m not reall y sure because he was already on
10 probation so I ' m not really sure .
11 Q Okay. He ' d been in the system?

12 A Yes .
13 Q Wa s the re a nyt h ing about tha t t hat changed
14 your -- or or affected your attitude , either
15 positively or negatively , uh , toward the , uh,
16 police authorities?
17 A No .
18 Q Uh , towa r d t h e l egal system, itself?
19 A No .
20 Q Any other -- any other matters that -- that ,
21 uh - - I - - I see on here you say, theft , did not
22 find pe r son?
23 A Oh , yeah . That was in , um , Chicago . Somebody

24 s mashed my car window and took some things from me .
25 Q Okay.
224
1 A Um-hmm.
2 Q Sort of a grab and run?
3 A Yep.
4 Q Other than your former spouse, have any family
5 members , or anyone close to you , ever been a
6 suspect in , or arrested in , or c harged with a
7 crime?
8 A No, not besides that one .
9 Q Say it again?
10 A Not not besides the one I - -
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- just mentioned, yeah.
13 Q All right . Did you believe t hat the battery that
14 was committed on you by the f orme r spouse was
15 handled appropriately by the police authorities?
16 A Yes .
20 guilty of any of fe nse , unless and until the State
21 has proven each element of e ach offense beyond a
22 reaso n able doubt. Could you follo w that
23 instruction?
24 A Yes .
25 Q You would also be instructed that Bre ndan Dassey
225
1 has a constitutional right not to testify if he
2 so chooses at a trial, and in the event he elects
3 to not testify , you cannot hold that against him .
4 Instead , you must base your decision solely on
5 the evidence introduced at trial. Cou ld you
6 follow that instruction as well?
7 A Yes .
8 Q Thank you.
9 THE COURT : Uh, Mr. Fallon ?
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes . Thank you.
13 Q Um, congratul ations on your marriage, by the way .
14 A Thank you .
15 Q Um, and I guess that ' s my -- my one concern . You
16 have, um, qui te a few children still at home?
17 A Yes.
18 Q If -- i f you ' re , uh, selected as a juror , and you
19 got to, urn, spend couple weeks in Manitowoc away
20 from your family and your kids , is that going to
21 present any type of hardship in terms of caring
22 for your kids and making sure they get of f to
23 school and whatever else they have to do?
24 A No. My husband's actually at home wi th the kids .
25 Q He'll be able to do t hat?
226
1 A Yes.
2 Q Is h e employed?
3 A No.
4 Q That 's all I have .
5 THE COURT : Mr. Fremg en , anythi ng?
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , Judge . Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Thank you . You may step down.
8 JUROR LOWERY: Okay.
13 THE COURT: All right. She will be seated.
14 Uh , next juror.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON : Hold it , Your Honor.
16 Can we go back to that last one a moment? I want
17 to ask her to come back in because it looks like
18 she has had - - You asked her if she ever h ad a n y
19 arrests , and unless we have the wrong person , we
20 think she may have had several arrests.
21 THE COURT : All rig ht. Let ' s , uh - -
22 ATTORNEY FALLON : Unl ess I got the wrong
23 p erson . Well, we have -- Yeah . We have, uh ,
24 several three arrests for this -- f or the same
25 woman with the same date of birth, so ...
227
1 THE COURT : All right . Yeah , bring her
2 back in . We ' ll just follow that up .
3 ATTORNEY FALLON : I think it was the way
4 we asked the question .
5 THE COURT : I That may well be .
6 (Juror Lowery is brought back in . )

7 THE COURT : Why don ' t you be seated again.
8 I -- I -- We want to follow up . Do you want to do
9 it , Mr. Fallon , or do you want me to ?
10 ATTORNEY FALLON : Doesn't matter to me.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY THE COURT :
14 Q Uh, and I may have mis-asked a question of you,
15 but at one poi nt I said, uh, have you, any family
16 members , or anyone close to you, ever been a
17 suspect and arrested for or charged with a
18 criminal o ffense ? I I thi nk the - - t he
19 information is that you may have been arrested at
20 one time?
21 A Oh, yeah .
22 Q Yeah .
23 A I'm -- I ' m sorry, Your Honor . Yeah , that's correct .
24 Q Well , this is not the most happily worded
25 question . Uh , were you -- what were you arrested
228
1 for?
2 A Urn, the same person we both got arrested for
3 the -- a disorderly
4 Q Disorderly conduct ?
5 A Some disorderly domestic battery I think it was. It
6 wa s dismissed , urn --
7 Q Was that as a result of the battery that we
8 talked about with your ex-spouse?
9 A Um-hmm. Yes .
10 Q Yes? Were you, to the best of your recollection ,
11 arrested any other times?
12 A No . No.
14 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes .
17 Q Wa s there any , uh any other , um , side charges
18 like bail jumping or a nything like --
19 A For me?
20 Q Yes .
21 A Yes . But I was only arrested once .
22 Q Oh . But f or three offenses?
23 A I was onl y arrested one time . I we nt to jail once
24 and that was it.
25 Q Um --
229
1 A Well, back that up to -- to -- I guess, now as I ' m
2 recalling, it was probably li ke ten years ago . They
3 booked me from -- I -- I came into the courthouse for
4 a hearing, they took my fingerprints and let me go .
5 Q All right.
6 A And they -- after that I was arrested once, and

7 t hat's where the bail jumping came in . It was the
8 same person that we had the disorder ly conduct -- I
9 had a disorderly against.

10 Q But t he bail jumping, were you arrested, then,
11 for violating some court order?

12 A Um, from the -- from the time that they took my
13 fingerprints .
14 Q Okay. But -- so what did they say you did wrong

15 that resulted in you being arrested?
16 A We got into another fight .

17 Q And this is with your
18 A The same per -- yes. Same
19 Q -- with your ex-husband?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right.
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q And there was a no contact order or something
25 in --
230
1 A We ll, we live -- No , it wasn't a no contact. I think
2 it was a -- just not like one of those things not
3 to get in trouble again or something like that.
4 Q No assaultive contact?
5 A Or something like that.
6 Q All right.
9 Q And this was about eight , nine years ago?
10 A Yes. We both actually got a rres ted at that time and
11 my charges were dismissed.
12 THE COURT : Anything f ur t her?
13 ATTORNEY FALLON : No. That clears that up .
14 Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks.
16 (Where in juror is escorted out.)
17 ATTORNEY FALLON : There's no motion from
18 us.
20 THE COURT: Okay. In the box.
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, can I ask a - - a
22 favor, if after this juror we could take our break
23 early? I just need to --
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: This is Juror No.
231
1 140 , Peter Nehrbass .
2 THE COURT : Good afternoon .
3 JUROR NEHRBASS: Good afternoon .
5 BY THE COURT :
6 Q Uh, this is individual vo ir dire. I ta l ked a

7 little bit about it this morning in the
8 courtroom. I' m going to ask you a few questions.
9 Counsel may or may not have some follow - up
10 questions.
11 Uh , this case , the State vs. Brendan
12 Dassey, has received a lot of publicity. Have
13 you heard anything about it?
14 A Yeah. Heard some stuff .
15 Q From what source did you hear it?
16 A Uh, just like the news and stuff.
17 Q Based on what you've heard , have you formed any
18 opinion relative to Mr. Dassey's guilt or
19 innocence?
20 A Not -- not really . I don't know that much . Just the
21 basic stuf f .
22 Q Are you te l ling me you have a very sketchy amount
23 of information?
24 A I know , like, basic -- I don ' t know .
25 Q Okay . Well, back -- back to the --
232
1 ATTORNEY FALLON : I ' m sorry , Judge , we
2 couldn' t hear that answer .
3 Q (By the Cou rt) Yeah . These c hairs don ' t move .
4 The chairs are fixed . So you have to take that
5 microphone and get as close to it as you can .
6 Uh, based on what you ' ve heard , and I understand

7 it isn ' t , uh , uh -- or at least you ' re suggesting
8 that it i sn ' t a substantial amount of
9 information , have you formed an opinion at t hi s
10 time as to the guilt or innocence of Mr . Dassey?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you d iscus sed this cas e wi th a nyo ne else?
13 A No . I mean, jus t watching the news and stuff , like ,
14 when I wasn ' t a -- a juror, I guess , you know , like
15 with my mom and stu ff .
16 Q Anyone other than your mom that you can t h i nk of?
17 A No.
18 Q And were these d i scussions just sort of things i n
19 passing or were t hey pretty substantial ?
20 A Just like -- No. Not substantial . Just comments .
21 Q All righ t . Have you had a family member or
22 friend who was ki lled accidenta ll y or otherwise?
23 A My father die d, but it was of a heart attack .
24 Q All right. Bu t there -- there -- t he heart
25 attac k was not brought on by a ny trauma such as
233
1 a --
2 A No . He was playing sports .
3 Q Have you, a family member, or a close frie nd ,

5 A No.
6 Q If you were called upon to serve as a juror in

7 thi s case , can you disregard anything you may
8 have read or heard in the media, or from any
9 source , and decide the case solely on the
10 evidence that is received and produced in court?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Have you, or any close friend , or rel -- or
13 relative, ever been the victim of or a witness to
14 any kind of crime , whether it was reported to l aw
15 enforcement authori ties or not?
16 A No .
17 Q Uh , have
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, if he could
19 just answer . I know he's shaking his head but --
20 JUROR NEHRBASS: No . Sorry .
21 THE COURT : No. He -- he ' s answering ,
22 but it's very low.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay .

24 Q (By the Court) Uh, specifically, have any close
25 friends or relatives of yours been the vi ctim of
234
1 sexual assaults?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay.
4 A No.
5 Q Do try to talk a little louder . Uh, have you, a
6 close friend , or family member, ever been
7 arrested?
8 A I've had close friends arrested, yeah.
9 Q For what sorts of things?
10 A Uh, drug possess i on, stuff like that.
11 Q All right . Have you ever been arrested for drug
12 possession?
13 A No.
14 Q The fact that you may have had some close friends
15 arrested for drug possession, does that affect
16 your attitude toward police authorities?
17 A A little bit . I mean, not too much though.
18 Q All right . By "a little bit" are we talking a
19 negative or
20 A Yeah . I ' ve had some bad experiences .
21 Q Again , can you get -- raise your voice
22 A Yeah.
23 Q -- please?
24 A Sorry. Yes, sir.
25 Q You said you had -- you've had some bad
235
1 experiences?
2 A Yeah .
3 Q What -- what - - what sorts of bad experiences?
4 A Uh , just like, I think , being treated unfair and
5 stuff .
6 Q You think you ' ve been treated un

7 A No , not me, just like the people that were arrested.
8 Q Okay. You're -- you're --
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: You're making us work
10 hard here.
11 Q (By the Court) Yeah. Um, can you take that --
12 does t hat wand and microphone come down a little
13 farther?
14 A Yeah .
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: The whole -- the who l e
16 thing will move, I think.
17 BAILIFF : Just slide it toward you.
18 THE COURT : Oh , yeah .
19 JUROR NEHRBASS: Okay .
20 THE COURT: Oh , eureka.
21 Q (By the Court) Um, so what you ' re talking about
22 is that you think your -- some of your friends
23 may have been dealt with unfairly by police?
24 A Yes .
25 Q Personally, do you think you have?
236
1 A No .
2 Q Does the fact that some of your friends may have
3 been dealt unfairly with by police , uh, affect
4 your attitude toward law enforcement?
5 A No . No .
12 instruction?
13 A Yes .
14 Q Uh , Mr . Dassey has a constitutional right not to
15 testify if he so chooses. If he elected not to
16 testify , uh , you would be instructed that you
17 could not hold that against him . Rather, you
18 must base your decision solely on the evidence
19 introduced at trial . As a juror, could you
20 follow that inst r uction?
21 A Yes .
22 THE COURT: Mr . Fallon?
23 ATTORNEY FALLON : Thank you .
237
1 Q Um, Mr. Nehrbass, um, what was it about the
2 experiences that your friends had , um, that may
3 af -- affect your viewpoint or attitude as to how
4 the police do their job? What -- what was it
5 that struck you the wrong way?
6 A Just like unnecessary violence and stuff like that.
7 Q Unnecessary -- Did you witness it?
8 A Yeah.
9 Q You were present upon their arrest?
10 A On one occasion, yeah .

11 Q And what did you see that upset you?
12 A I just didn't think they had to be that physical .
13 Q Okay . How physical were they? Tell me what they
14 did.
15 A I just -- Like threw him to the ground and stuff like
16 that . I mean , I guess I could see like the situation
17 because there ' s a bunch of us , but, so . ..
18 Q What -- They threw him to the ground, they rolled
19 him over , and they cuffed him?
20 A Yeah .
21 Q Anything else?
22 A No .
23 Q They didn't pu nch him?
24 A No .
25 Q They didn't hit them with a stick or anything?
238
1 A No. No.
2 Q Okay. Now, you said there was one other
3 occ asion , um, t hat you may or may not have been
4 pre sent?
5 A No, it was just one .
6 Q Just one occasion? So there ' s just one arrest?

7 A Yeah. Whi ch I was present.
8 Q In which you were present ? Well , are you aware
9 of other incidents?
10 A Of
11 Q Okay . I -- I -- Let me start over . You said
12 you 've had friends , so I assume that 's more than
13 one, arrested for d rugs , and some of the
14 experiences left you with a -- a -- a bad
15 attitude or affects your attitude --
16 A Whi ch is No . No, j us t one experience there .
17 Q It's just one --
18 A Yeah .
19 Q - - time
20 A Yeah .
21 Q - - and involving one friend?
22 A Correct .
23 Q Okay . But there was a bunch of you that were
24 present?
25 A Yes .
239
1 Q How many of you were there?
2 A Like four or five, I think.
3 Q Okay.
4 A It was a l ot of us there.
5 Q Okay. Om, where did it happen?
6 A It was at a friend 's house. I'm not sure whe r e .
7 Q At a friend's house? How -- how Is there a
8 reason why the police were called?
9 A He was leaving the -- the -- We were inside the house
10 and he was outside , so ...
11 Q Okay. But do you have any idea why the police
12 would be standing outside this house when you
13 were --
14 A I 'm sure they got called because of the noise and
15 stuff .
16 Q All right. So you don't know -- Would it be fair
17 to say you don't know what happened between your
18 friend and the police before you walked out of
19 the house?
20 A Yeah. Yes.
21 Q Okay. So i n terms of having a rough experience,
22 um, is it possible that your friend may have said
23 or done something that caused the police to
24 respond roughly in your way of thinking?
25 A Yes.
240
1 Q Okay . Now, there will be a fair amount of police
2 testimony in our case coming up as you might
3 imagine , uh , was there - - is there anything about
4 the exper iences that you and your friends had
5 with the police that says , you know , that I don 't
6 think I can give the cops a fair shake here . I
7 just may not find their testimony believable
8 because of these experiences I ' ve had with my
9 friends?
10 A No .
11 Q You're confident about that?
12 A Yes .
13 Q Okay. That's all I have . Thanks .

14 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen , anything?
16 THE COURT : You may step down . Thank you .
17 (Wherein juror is e s corted out . )
18 THE COURT : Any motions , gentlemen?


21 THE COURT: Mr . Nehrbass will be seated .
22 We ' ll wait a moment t o bring in the next juror.
23 We ' ll take -- You wanted a break now?

24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : If I could , please .
241
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: If that ' s all right ,
2 Judge.
3 THE COURT: We'll do that instead of
4 3 :00.
5 ATTORNEY FALLON : Fifteen minutes?
6 THE COURT : Yep.
7 (Recess had at 2 : 45 p.m.)
9 J UD ICIAL ASSISTANT: No. 147, Ashley
10 Shippy .
11 THE COURT : Good afternoon, Ms . Shippy .
12 JUROR SHIPPY : Hello.
13 THE COURT : Pull up a chair .
15 BY THE COURT :
16 Q This is individual voir dire . I'm going to ask
17 you some questions, and if counsel have follow-up
18 questions, t h ey will ask follow - up questions.
19 Uh , this case , State vs. Brendan Dassey ,
20 has received a lot of publicity. Have you heard
22 A Very small.
23 Q Very little?
24 A Very li tt le.
25 Q Anything substantial at all or just sort of the
242
1 name?
2 A Pretty much the name.
3 Q Based on what you have heard , have you formed any
4 opinions regarding the guilt or innocence of
5 Mr . Dassey?
6 A No.
7 Q Have you talked about this case with anyone?
8 A Um, kind of. Not like -- not with details or
9 anything but, like, that I was going to it .
10 Q Just in passing?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q You -- you didn ' t -- uh , i f I understand you
13 correctly , you didn't discuss any deta ils of the
14 case
15 A No.
16 Q -- is that right? Yes?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Have you had any family member or friend who was
20 A Um, I'm sorry. What?
21 Q Have you had any family member or a friend who
23 A So like how close of friend? Any friend?
24 Q Is there someone who was killed that you knew?
25 A Yeah .
243
1 Q A friend?
2 A Yea h.
3 Q Or at least an acquaintance?
4 A Um-hmm .
5 Q Yes?
6 A Yes .
7 Q We have to say - - we have to answer yes or no.
8 Shaking heads or nodding - -
9 A Yes , sorry .
10 Q Um , how did -- how did it occur?
11 A Um , I don ' t know . Like , murder , I guess.
12 Q So --
13 A I just don ' t know if the - - the trial ' s done with .
14 You know what I mean?
15 Q So you had a friend that was murdered?
16 A Right .
17 Q How long a go?
18 A Um, July of last year .
19 Q July of 2006?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Was someone charged with the murder?
22 A Um-hmm .
23 Q Yes?
24 A Yes . Sorry .
25 Q Has -- has that person been tried yet?
244
1 A I don't know , like, too much about it. I just know
2 that there's a guy -- a suspect, you know .
3 Q Does the fact that you had a friend that was
4 murdered and someone's charged with it affect
5 your attitude toward law enforcement at all?
6 A Not sure I understand the question .
7 Q All right. You -- you've told us that you've had
8 a friend that was, uh - - was murdered and someone
9 was charged with it ; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Uh , are you satisfied with the way that the
12 police have handled this so far?
13 A No.
14 Q Why not?
15 A Uh, there hasn ' t been a conclusion yet . I'd want ,
16 like , justice .
17 Q You think it should have gone faster?
18 A Yeah. I didn't -- I don 't know what -- exactly,
19 like, where the process is in the trial. Like , you
20 know what I mean? Like, I don' t know. He has hasn ' t
21 been convicted yet , but there's a guy i n jail waiting
22 to be convicted. I don't rea l ly know.
23 Q Well, let me ask you this: The -- the fact that
24 you had a frie nd murdered and, uh , that there's
25 someone awaiting to be tried on that case, does
245
1 that , in any way, affect the way you look at this
2 case?
3 A No.
4 Q Uh, you could separate your friend 's case from
5 this?
6 A Yes . Yes.
7 Q Have you, a family member, or close friend, ever
8 killed anyone accidentally or otherwise?
9 A No.
11 case , could you disregard anything you may have
12 heard or read in the media, or from any other
13 source , and decide this case based only on the
15 A Um, I think so. I ' m not too pos itive .
16 Q Well, you told me before that you had formed no
17 opinions with respect to the guilt or
18 innocence
19 A Right.
20 Q -- is that correct?
21 A Right . I -- I - - to be honest I don't -- I don't
22 know. I'm not sure I can, like - - I don't feel
23 comfortable, like, handling a bigger decision like
24 this. You know what I mean?
25 Q All right . We ' ll get to that in in
246
1 A Sure .
2 Q -- in just a minute - -
3 A Sure.
4 Q -- but what I 'm asking you here is can you set
5 aside anything that you may have heard about this
6 in the media, and -- and, if you ' re a juror,
7 concentrate only on what comes in front of the
8 Court?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Uh, have you , or any close friend , or relative ,
11 ever b een the victim of or a witness to any kind
12 of crime, whether it was reported to law
14 A No.
15 Q Uh , specifically, have you , or any close friend ,
16 or relatives , been the victims of sexual assault?

17 A No.
18 Q Have you , a close friend , or a family member,
19 e ver been arrested?
20 A Ugh-ugh .
21 Q No?
22 A No.

25 innocent and that he cannot b e found guilty of
247
2 proven each e lement of each offense beyond a
5 that instruction?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Uh, likewise, uh, if you were selected as a
8 juror, you would be instructed that Mr . Dassey
9 has a constitutional right not to testify, and
10 that if he decides not to testify, you cannot
11 hold that against h im . You must base your
12 decis ion solely on the evidence introduced at the
13 trial. Could you follow that --
14 A Yes .
15 Q instruction? All right .
21 Q I just want to follow up on a couple of, uh,
22 answers , i f I could, Ms . Ms. Shippy . You
23 indicated that this friend of yours isn't a very
24 close friend that was murdered?
25 A Um, he was at one point, but then it kind of was,
248
1 l i ke , we l os t touc h. You know what I mean? He was ,
2 l i ke , in my life , but t hen he kind of wasn ' t for
3 awhile . You know?
4 Q So at the t ime whe n he was murdered, it - - he wa s
5 kind of out of your li f e at that point?
6 A Ki nd of . Yeah.
7 Q You're aware s ome one ' s in jail, you s aid --
8 A Yes.
9 Q - - a waiti ng a t rial?
10 A Yeah. I ' m -- I ' m guessing . I don ' t I honest l y
11 don ' t know . It was in my home town , so I don ' t know .
12 Q Okay. But t h at ' s no t l ocal? Not he r e ?
13 A No .
14 Q Um , let me ask you about t hat . If this person i s
15 i n - - in j a il a waiting trial , is t hat pers on
16 do you believ e he ' s gui lty of what happene d?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Because it ' s a fr i end of yours?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Now, you don ' t know Mr . Das s ey ; corre ct?
21 A No , I don ' t .
22 Q And h e' s fa cing the same t ype of charge , a - -
23 A Um-hmm .
24 Q - - mu rde r charge - -
25 A Right .
249
1 Q -- essentially , and the law requires everyone,
2 including your friend ' s
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- the person who killed your friend , the
5 presumption of innocence . Are you able to I
6 guess -- I -- I guess ignore your experience
7 with --
8 A Yeah .
9 Q -- the friend who's been murdered --
10 A Um-hmm.
11 Q -- and you can presume --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- Mr. Dassey ' s --
14 THE COURT: You're going to have to wait
15 until he finishes the question.
16 JUROR SHIPPY . Sorry.
17 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) You mentioned that you ' re
18 not sure if you could decide -- that means, I
19 guess , I 'm assume to be -- you're not sure you
20 could make a decision of guilt or innocence in a
21 case like this, and I think you mentioned because
22 it's a big decision? Okay .
23 A Yes .
24 Q Can you explain what you mean by that?
25 A Um , I guess, like , because I wasn't there , I don ' t
250
1 want to -- like -- like deciding some one's future,
2 kind of. Like, I don't know the -- like, I don't
3 know the truth, like -- You know what I mean?
4 Q Are you afraid of being wrong?
5 A Um, yes.
6 Q Would it be different if it were just, let's say ,

7 a simple theft case? Or is it the type of case,
8 too, that --
9 A It's the --
10 Q concerns you?
11 A type of case , yes.
12 Q If the Judge And I -- and I -- I'm not saying
13 that because of this that you certainly can ' t be

14 a juror, but if the Judge were to instruct you
15 that if chosen as a juror, you should do your
16 best to -- to be fair and impartial, and give

17 each side equal opportunity to present their
18 case, you'd be able to do that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Despite it being a very s i gnificant case?

21 A Ye ah.
22 Q Okay. I have nothing e l se.

24 ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh , if I might f o l low
25 up.
251
3 Q Um , I want to tal k about your fear of decision --

4 A Yeah .
5 Q -- so to speak . Um, would it matter to you , and
6 make you more comfortable , knowi ng that if you' re

7 one of the 12 people making the decision , you
8 will have a ll o f the information t hat is brought
9 to the jurors in the courtroom . In other words ,
10 if there ' s a decision to be made , and the jurors
11 are making it , you ' ll be one of the people who
12 has all of the information , not -- not just what
13 you see or don ' t see on televi s i on , or r ead in
14 the newspapers , you ' ll actually see the evidence ,
15 hear the testimony firsthand?
16 A Would I feel better?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes .
19 Q Okay . And so that i t ' s not the same as t rying to
20 determine guilt or innocence from what you read
21 in the newspaper, or hear on television , or
22 a nything e lse . Do you understand the difference?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Okay. And so do you think you woul d be able to
25 do the job if you ' re one of the jurors and you
252
1 have all of the evidence presented to you in the
2 courtroom?
3 A Yes .
4 Q Okay.
5 THE COURT: All right. Uh, thank you. You
6 may step down .
7 (Whe rein juror i s escorted out .)
8 THE COURT: Any mot ions?
11 THE COURT : Um, you want to do t he next
12 juror now or wou l d y ou like to have , uh - - You ' re
13 suggesting Mr. Covington should come back here and ,
14 in effect , uh, explain --
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, I mean , I'll tell
16 you the reason for my concern is that I had a CCAP
17 record run. It shows that he was convicted of an
18 OWI second offen se and says eight days loca l jail ,
19 and he - - specifically, he was asked d i d -- did you
20 serve time? Did you go to jail for that? And he
21 said , no . So ...
22 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, anything ?
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: I think h e should b e
24 struc k for cau se .
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge , I ' d like to hear
253
1 his explanation. He -- you know , you you said
2 that he heard the the question and he how he
3 answered it . Uh , it ' s -- I -- I don ' t want to put
4 words in Mr . Covington's mouth either . Maybe he
5 didn ' t hear the question accurately. Maybe he
6 misinterpreted the question. I suppose t hat he
7 needs to - - there should be at least some followup
8 and ma ybe re - - rehabilitative
9 THE COURT : Well , let ' s - - let ' s get him
10 back in here for -- for for that . Uh,
11 Mr. Fallon , you may ask him that question.
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure . I hate to say
13 thi s , but I -- normally , I wouldn ' t s h y away from
14 this , but I ' d almost prefer you ask it , because if
15 it turns out there is an explanation --
16 THE COURT : All right. I'll ask i t.
17 ATTORNEY FALLON : -- then I'm on the
18 unenviable task .
19 (Wherein Juror Covington is brought in . )
20 THE COURT : Mr. Covington, you're back
21 again.
22 JUROR COVINGTON: Yes .
24 BY THE COURT:
25 Q Perhaps you can clarify something for us.
254
1 A Uh-huh.
2 Q When we last talked with you , I believe you were
3 asked whe ther or not you had served any jail
4 time ; is that correct?
5 A Yes .
6 Q And you said you had not?
7 A Oh, I -- I misunderstood the question .
8 Q Okay.
9 A Yes -- we did -- I had to do , uh , five days in jail .
10 Q As a result of the second OWI?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Uh, the the sheet that I have in front of me
13 says e i ght days in jail? Might it have been
14 eight rather than five?
15 A Uh , they said eight, but you do five .
16 Q Oh. Okay . Okay . So you misunderstood the
17 question the first time?
18 A Yes .
19 THE COURT : Any followup?
20 ATTORNEY FALLON : No.
21 THE COURT: You're off again .
22 JUROR COVINGTON: All right.
23 THE COURT : Thank you.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON : Can we have about 30
255
1 seconds just to chat amongst us?
2 THE COURT : Go ahead.
3 (Dis cussion off the record.)
4 THE COURT: On the record. Mr. Fallon,
5 have you had a chance to consult?
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : We -- we talke d i t over
7 and I -- I -- I'm still renewing my motion to strike
8 for cause.
9 THE COURT : Motion denied. Next juror.
10 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror 151, Robert
11 Rice.
12 THE COURT: Hi, Mr. Rice. Would you sit
13 down, please? Thank you.
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q This is the individual voir dire of which I spoke
17 abou t this morning. I'm going to ask you some
18 questions. Counsel may have followup or may not.
19 Uh , this case, uh , State of Wisconsin
20 vs. Brendan Dassey , has received a lot of
21 publicity. Have you heard anything about it?
22 A Just what's been on the news and in the newspapers.
23 Q Would you say that that was a substantial amount
24 or not so?
25 A I would say not. I -- You know, I never went out of
256
1 my way to check on it or anything like that .
2 Q Based on -- on what you've heard vr what you've
3 seen, uh, have you formed any opinion abuu~ the
5 A Um , no, not really .
6 .Q · Okay; Does "no, not really " mee:u1 no'?
7 A I mean, no. No, I --
8 Q Okay.
9 A - - have not.
. .... : ,':_ ' ! ::. · 10 Q Have you talke d ~bout this case with anyone?
11 A No.
14 A Well, I 've had friends that have died since high
15 school , but ...
16 Q Well, I'm not talking about died so much as
17 killed?
18 A No.
21 A No.
22 Q Have you, a close friend, or a relative , been the
23 victim of or a witness to any kind of crime,
24 whether it was reported or not to law
25 enforcement?
257
l · .· · A I had -- had my car b~ ~ ke into .
2 Q Was the person who broke into yo11r car eve ntually
3 apprehended?
4 A No . It ' s never been solved as far as I kn ow .
5 Q How long ago did that occur?
6· A Oh , probably about six yea r s a go.
7 Q Um , if you were called to serve as a juror in
8 this case, could you disregard anything you may
9 have heard or read in the media , or from any
10 source , and decide this case based solely on the
12 A I think I could . Yes .
13 Q Al l right . Um, h ave you ever had a close f r iend
14 or relative who ' s been the victim of a sexual
15 assault?
16 A No .
17 Q Have you had a close friend or family member
18 who's been arrested?
19 A No. I ' ve been arrested for , um , OWI .
20 Q For operating while under the influence?
22 Q Yes?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Uh , a single time?
25 A Twice.
258
1 Q ·Uh , whe·r, ·were those two . occasions?
2 A One was like '8 0 -- ' 81 , I would say , and the other
3 was '86.
4 Q Sc there ' s at least 20 years between the las t one
5 and now; is th~ t co rrect?
6 A Um-hrrun.
7 Q Yes?
8 A Yes.
9 Q She can't take down the --
10 A Yes .
11 Q We say t hat . Okay. Uh , the fact t ha t - - that
12 you -- Were you convicted on each occasion?
13 A Yes .
14 Q Does this affect the way you look at law
15 enforcement? The fact that you were arrested and
16 c onvicted of operating whil e under the influence?
17 A Well, it kind of makes me think t hat I have a
18 te ndency to have to lean t hat you have to prove
19 yourse lf innocent instead of prove yourself --
20 Q Well - -
21 A guilty.
22 Q did you think the police handled your case
23 fairly?
24 A I think it was handl e d fairly , yes .
25 Q Al l right . Do you feel t hat you, as a result of
259
1 that , developed some sort of prejudice aga inst
2 police authori ties?
3 A No .
4 Q Um, if you ' re selected as a juror in t his case ,
5 you will be instructed that Mr . Dassey is
6 presumed innoceht and th~t he cannot be found
8 has proved each element of each offense beyond a
9 reasonable doubt. Coul d you follow that
10 instruction as a j uro r?
11 A I th i nk I could . Yes .
12 Q Likewise , t here wou ld be an instruct i on that
13 would te ll you that he has a constitutional r ight
14 not to testify i n the case , and tha t i f he
15 d ecides not to testify , you cou ld not hold that
16 against him . Instead , you must base your
17 d ecis i o n solely on the evi dence introduced at
18 t r ial . Could you fo l low that a s we ll ?
19 A Yes .
21 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes , thank you .
24 Q Not withstandi ng the , uh , Court's last , uh ,
25 couple of questions with you , um, in the
260
1 questionnaire , Mr . Rice, um, you indicated t here
2 may be some effect on your ability, because of

3 the verdicts reached in the case regarding
4 Mr . Avery, the fact that there is a refuted
5 confession , although recanted by t h is .man, are
6 you sure that you'll be able to set those aside?

7 A Well , I'm not sure on that . I -- Like I said , I read
8 what I read in the paper that he confessed, and then
9 it's kind of hard to , like, jus t block it out of your
10 mind.
11 Q Al l right. Um, would it -- would it matter to

12 you if the confession and the statements that
13 he's allegedly made are introduced into evidence?
14 Does that change whether or not you' d be able to
15 decide this case solely on t he evidence?
16 A You mean, li ke , t hey never even got it entered into
17 evidence? Is that what you -- like like -- You
18 mean, like, it never even got it ever entered --

19 Q No. Just --
20 A -- into evidence?
21 Q Let's assume fo r the sa ke of argument that it was
22 another piece of the evidence that was
23 introduced. Woul d you be able to dec i de this

24 case solel y on the evidence without consideration
25 of the verdict in the Steven Avery case?
261
1 A I ' m not sure . I -- Yes . I ' ll say yes .
2 Q Okay . You ' re you ' re hesitating a little bit ,
3 so ...
4 A Like I said, i t ' s h a rd to block it out of your mind ,
5 you know .
6 Q Okay . Well , let's articulate that now , and maybe
7 we should separate t h e two concepts . You said
8 it ' s ha r d to bl ock it out of your mi n d?
9 A Yeah . What wha t I ' ve read a bout i t. Like , it's
10 hard for me to go in and say t h at I don ' t know . I ' ve
11 never heard about it .
12 Q Okay. Um , let ' s iden tify the " it " . Um , is
13 A The - -
14 Q Is it t he - - Le t me a s k the question . Is it the
15 verdict in Mr. Avery ' s case or is there something
16 that ' s allegedly relevant to this case that ' s
17 causing you concern?
18 A No . The verdict in t he Avery case doesn ' t have a - -
19 any effect on t h e opinion on t his case .
20 Q It -- it has no effect?
21 A Ugh-ugh .
22 Q Okay . Relative to t h is case , will you be able to
23 follow Judge Fox's instruction and decide this
24 case based on the evidence which is presented ,
25 not what may be floating out in the media reports
262
1 or accounts of what is supposedly happening or
2 didn't happen?
3 A Yes .
4 Q Okay. Um, with respect to your own experience,
5 um, from 20 years ago , uh, there anything about
6 those encounters with the police that , uh, makes

7 you wonder whether you'll be able to fair ly
8 evaluate, um, their testimony in this particular
9 case? We have lots of police testimony coming
10 up. Do you think you'll be able to give them a
11 fair shake like any other witness?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you believe that your cases were fairly
14 handled years ago?

15 A Yeah. I believe it is. Yes.
16 Q Okay. Um, and do -- did you deserve the

17 punishment you received?
18 A Um-hmm. Yes.
19 Q Okay. That's al l I have.
20 THE COURT: Anything, Mr. Fremgen?

23 Q Mr. Rice, uh, in your questionnaire you
24 indicated, and actually just said it a few

25 minutes ago , that you feel that there's a need
263
1 for someone to prove their innocence; is that
2 correct?
3 A I don't think it's - - You know, I think i t 's like
4 human nature. Once somebody is accused of something
5 that -- like, you have to prove yourself innocent
6 instead of them proving you guilty.
7 Q That that ' s your feeling?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you understand the law is different than
10 that?
11 A Um-hmm.
12 THE COURT: Is that
13 JUROR RICE: Yes.
14 THE COURT: -- a yes?
15 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) And he - - and the Judge
16 already went through that with you that you have
17 to presume that Brendan Dassey , right now, as he
18 sits here, is innocent; right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you can do that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q But you would still feel that he should have to
23 prove he 's innocent at some point?
24 A I think that ' s just human nature.
25 Q But could you , yourself, feel that that's
264
1 something that he should have to do?
2 A No. He's supposed -- supposed to prove him guil t y .
3 Q Okay. So if we get through the middl e of the
4 trial , and you're a juror, you can still sit --
5 sit there and say he 's innocent , because we're
6 not done with the trial yet?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. In regards to the, uh -- You indicated you
9 had the conviction for OWI. Did you have a trial
10 or were you actu - - did you plead guilty to t he
11 OW!?
12 A Just pled guilty.
13 Q Did you plead guilty because you felt you were
14 guilty or you had no other choice?
15 A Well, I was guilty and I didn't really have much of a
16 choice. I just wanted to be get it put b e hind me .
17 Q Okay. Had you felt you were not guilty, would
18 you have had a trial?
19 A If I felt I was not guilty I would have. Sure.
20 Q Okay. Thank you, very much. Nothing else .
21 THE COURT: Followup?
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Briefly.
265
1 Q Just because somebody pleads not guilty, does
2 that mean they are not guilty? Or does that mean
3 they just as -- you -- asserting their
4 constitutional right to have a trial?
5 A I think there's certain constitutional rights to have
6 a trial.
7 Q So you understand that just because you plead not
8 guilty, doesn't necessarily mean you're not
9 guilty?
10 A Om-hmm. Yes.
11 Q Okay. That ' s fine. Nothing else .
12 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
17 THE COURT: Okay. He's seated . Next
18 juror .
19 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: This is Juror 154 ,
20 Diane Austin.
21 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Ms. Austin.
22 J UROR AUSTIN : Good afternoon.
24 BY THE COURT:
25 Q Uh, this is individual voir dire. I'm going to
266
1 ask you a few questions. After I'm done asking
2 questions, counse l may or may not have some
3 questions to suppl ement those that I had asked .
4 Uh , this case, State vs. Brendan Dassey,
5 has received a significant amount of publicity.
6 Have you heard anything about the case?

7 A I have read about it in the newspapers.
8 Q Is that your major source of information?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Based on what you have heard , or what you've read
11 in this case, have you formed any op i nions

12 relative to the guilt or innocence of this
13 defendant?
14 A Uh, I have read an article. I think maybe my opinion
15 is based more on previous, um, incidents that have
16 happened. Um, a ruling that was last week with his
17 uncle. Um, I don't know that I've completely formed
18 an opinion about this person.
19 Q You -- you're referring When you say , "his
20 uncle" you're referring to Steven Avery?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You unders t and this is a separate case?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q And I'll I'll ask you again, with respect
25 to -- to this case, the case of Brendan Dassey,
267
1 have you formed an opinion
2 A I think I have. Yes .
3 Q Uh, you - - you're going to have to --
4 A Sorry.
5 Q -- wait until I finish the question. Have you
6 formed an opinion as to whether he is guilty or
7 innocent?
8 A Yes, I have .
9 Q And that opinion is?
10 A Guilty .
11 Q Um, if you were instructed to set aside any
12 opinions that you had formed and base an opinion
13 solely on the evidence that is presented at a
14 trial , could you do that?
15 A Yes , I could .
17 killed accidentally or otherwi se?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you , a family member, or a c l ose friend ,
21 A No.
22 Q Have you, or any close friend, or relative, ever
23 been the victim o f or witness to any c rime -- any
24 kind of crime , whether it was reported or not?
25 A No .
268
1 Q Uh, specifically, have you , or a close friend, or
2 relative, ever been the victim of a sexual
3 assault?
4 A No.
5 Q Have you, a close friend , or a family member,
7 A No .
8 Q Charged with any kind of crime?
9 A Any kind of crime?
10 Q Sure .
11 A Uh, DUI . Family member.
12 Q Someone in your family was arrested for operating
13 while under --
14 A Yes .
15 Q - - the influence?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Were t hey convicted?
18 A Yes .
20 A A year-and-a-hal f ago .
21 Q Has this affected, in any way, the fact that the
22 family member was arrested and convicted, your
23 attitude toward law enforcement?
24 A No.
25 Q If you were selected as a juror , you would be
269
3 offense, unless a nd until the State has proven
4 each element of that offense beyond a reasonable
5 doubt . Could you follow that instruction?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Likewise , you would be instructed that Mr . Dassey
8 has a constitutional right not to testify in this
9 case , but that if he decides to testify - - if he
10 decides not to testify, you cannot hold that
11 decision against him. Rather, you must base your
12 decision solel y on the evidence that appears at
13 the trial . Could you follow that instruction as
14 well?
15 A Yes.
17 ATTORNEY FALLON : Thank you.
18 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATI ON
20 Q Ms. Austin, you indicated you did form an
21 opinion , and that your opinion -- opinion now is
22 t hat he is guilty?
23 A (No verbal response . )
24 Q That's a yes?
25 A Yes .
270
1 Q Okay. Um, is that a - - a strong opinion? Or is
2 that a leaning? Or is that just what you think
3 now? Or - -
4 A It's a n opinion I formed after reading one newspaper
5 article.
6 Q After one newspaper article . All right. Now,
7 um, would it cause you concern if you were the
8 one standing trial and possible jurors had
9 preliminary opini ons or had op in ions of guilt
10 without hearing any of the evidence?
11 A Yes .
12 Q All right. And so you realize in this particular
13 case that in our country guilt or innocence can
14 only be determined based upon the evidence which
15 is presented at trial?
16 A Right . Yes .
17 Q All right . And as such, would you ac knowledge or
18 would it be fa ir for you to say that -- that your
19 op - - an opinion -- your opinion is an unin formed
20 opinion?
21 A Yes .
22 Q Okay. And, as such, do you think you'll be able
23 to set that aside a nd decide this case based on
24 what you hear as evidence?
25 A Yes , I would be able to.
271
1 Q And you realize that what you hear as evidence in
2 a court may be di f ferent and may be more complete
3 than what are in news accounts?
4 A Right. Yes.
5 Q All right. And, as such, are you prepared to set
6 aside your -- these -- these preliminary opinions
7 and decide this case strictly on the evidence
8 that is introduced?
9 A Yes, I would.
10 Q Um, the only other question I have is , um, the
11 family member who was arrested, is that a -- a
12 nephew? Son? Husband?
13 A Husband.
14 Q Okay. Um, is that a local, Dane County
15 situation?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Um, I assume you and your husband talked
18 about that occurrence?
19 A Oh, yes.
20 Q And, uh, as such , um --
21 A Actually, I take it back. It wasn' t Dane County , it
22 was Iowa County.
23 Q Iowa. All right. Uh, in any event, um, setting
24 aside the emotional , uh, aspects of it, when the
25 facts were discussed, and the result , um, finding
272
1 of guilt , do you think that was a just result --
2 A Yes .
3 Q - - based on everything that occurred?
4 A Yes.
5 Q All right. And in terms of you and your
6 husband's experience , do you th i nk, over al l , a t
7 least from your perspective as the outside
8 looking in somewhat, that he was treated fairly?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Okay .
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: That ' s all I have ,

12 Your Honor .
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Sure .

17 Q Uh, Mrs. Austin, you, obviously, know yourself
18 better than we do?

19 A Um- hmm.
20 Q You did fill out the questionnaire , and whe n you

21 first filled out the questionnaire, your answe r
22 was, I honestly think he's guilty?
23 A Um-hmm.
24 Q And you used the word, "honestly"; correct?
273
1 Q Yes?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Okay . Sorry . That' s fine . Now , you ' ve heard

4 some other questions , a nd the Judge has given you
5 some of the instructions . I ' m going to ask you ,
6 can you do you honestly believe you can set
7 aside that opinion at this point?
8 A Yes , I do . Um, just t o kind of e l aborate a li t t l e
9 bit on that , um , fill i ng that form out sitting at
10 home , as I said , having , you know, read a newspaper
11 article , that kind of thing , I think it changes a lot
12 when you come here and then you ' re really put in a
13 s ituation of this is how t he sys tem works , it real l y
14 makes you , I guess , in my opinion , real ize that
15 probably having answered that ques t ion that way was
16 not a fair answer .
17 Q And -- and now that - - that you ' ve been through a
18 t r ial or watched a trial - -
19 A Yes . I was on a jury once before .
20 Q You were . Okay .
21 A Um-hmm .
22 Q Uh, so you understand that the prosecution goes
23 first , and then we have a chance to , if we wish
24 to , put on any part of our case after that?
25 A Actually, it was -- been so long ago I ' v e pretty much
274
1 forgotten
2 Q Okay.
3 A -- about
4 Q That's okay .
5 A -- the whole thing .
6 Q So, now, since you said you can hone stly set
7 aside your initial reaction of -- of -- that
8 that Brenda n was guilty , you can now say that you
9 can presume him innocent right now?
10 A Yes, I could.
11 Q And because the prosecution gets to go first , you
12 get to hear all of what they have to present to
13 you , and when they ' re done , you can't -- Well ,
14 strike that . When they ' re done with their case,
15 would you be able to honestly say , I can still
16 presume Mr . Dassey innocent until it ' s my time to
17 go in the back room and make a decision?
18 A Yes. Knowing that - - what the next step is , what the
19 next process would be .
20 Q So you can listen to everything
21 A Everything .
22 Q -- not just what the prosecution puts on first ,
23 which may be damaging or damn ing-type of
24 testimony?
25 A Yes .
275
1 Q Okay. Uh , Mr. Fa l lon asked you a question, and I
2 would just want to follow up on it.
3 A Uh-hmm.
4 Q I think it was more of a hypothetical if you were
5 on trial and you -- this -- you were the type of
6 juror with the question of -- where -- where the
7 juror said , I think he 1 s guilty, now, based upon
8 everything now that you 1 ve heard, do you think
9 think you would be a fair jury uh, juror if
10 you were -- the situation were switched?
11 A I do. I think that taking a step back and looking at
12 how I answe red it and then how I feel today, I think
13 I would be a fair juror.
14 Q Okay . Thank you. That's it .
15 THE COURT: Any followup?
18 (Wherein juror is escorted out .)
19 THE COURT: Any motions?
22 THE COURT: All right. So that was Juror
23 No. 30 . We 1 re going to do four more. Then, uh,
24 we'll do the general voir dire. At that time , I
25 would like to release most of the other --
276
1 ATTORNEY FALLON : The balance of the panel.
2 THE COURT: Well , the balance of t he
3 panel -- panel, maybe save a couple. I ' m willing to
4 be convinced if -- if , uh, uh, this has been a
5 pre t ty thorough betting process, I can ' t imagine
6 that there are going to be a significant number
7 of -- of excuses for cause , but I -- I -- I'm not a
8 prophet either.
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: I wouldn't think so
10 either , but I - - let me just toss out a number and

11 see if that goes with your -- We'll have four extra
12 that we've been through individual voir d i re . Maybe
13 save another f i ve or six?
14 THE COURT : Five would have been my -- my

15 thought. Yeah .
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: And then , um, let the

17 rest of t hem -- send them home and we'll, you know ,
18 have them stand by t he phone , and we may -- we may
19 not need them . I -- I I hate to just let them go
20 entirely , but I - - I -- I don ' t foresee having them

21 sit around all day .
22 THE COURT: No. No . No.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: That's fine.
24 THE COURT : Mr . Fremgen, that sounds okay
25 to you as well?
277
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : That ' s fine .
2 THE COURT: And I'm hoping we can complete
3 the entire process then , this day.
4 ATTORNEY FALLON : How late do you want to
5 go , Judge?
6 THE COURT: We 'l l see . Uh , next j uror .
7 ATTORNEY FALLON : Should we have t he
8 bailiffs clear out one- half t he row over t here for
9 these remaining four or five , or doesn ' t it matter?
10 THE COURT : Um -- uh Good afternoon .
11 JUROR SCHWIRTZ : Hello .
12 THE COURT : Uh , you're Ms. Schwirtz?
13 JUROR SCHWIRTZ: Yes, sir .
14 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Number 156, Lonna
15 Schwirtz .
16 THE COURT: All right .
18 BY THE COURT :
19 Q This is -- this is individual voir dire . I 'm
20 going to ask you a couple of quest ions . After
21 that, uh, counsel may follow up with some
22 add itional questions.
23 All right . This is , uh -- case , State
24 vs . Brendan Dassey, has received a lot of
278
1 A Um, on the radio. I ' ve seen a little bit on the
2 internet. Um, a l ittl e bit in the paper , but not a

3 lot in the paper.
4 Q So you -- you -- you ' ve gotten some information
5 from the radio , from the internet, and from the
6 newspaper?
7 A Um-hmm.
8 Q Yes?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Okay . Is that a significant amount of
11 information or is it just in passing?
12 A Just in passing.
13 Q Based on that information, have you formed any
14 opinions about the guilt or innocence of this
15 defendant?
16 A I don ' t have enough information. No.

17 Q So - -
18 A No.
19 Q No , you haven ' t?
20 A No .
21 Q Okay. Um , have you had a family member or a
22 frie nd who was killed accid e ntal ly or otherwise?
23 A No .
24 Q Uh, have you , a family member , or a close friend ,
279
1 A No.
2 Q If you're called upon to serve as a juror, can
3 you disregard anything that you may have read,
4 have heard, have seen, and base your decision
5 solely on the evidence that comes in at trial?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Have you, or any close friend , or relative, ever
11 A Can you repeat the question?
12 Q Sure. Have you, or any close frien d, or
13 relative, ever been t he victim of a crime,
14 whether or not it was reported to law enforcement
15 authorities? I think in -- in your questionnaire
16 you say theft you resolved in small claims court?
17 A Oh, yes. Yes .
18 Q Anything beyond that?
19 A No .
20 Q The fact that you were a victim of -- of a theft ,
21 uh, does that affect, in any way, your attitude
22 toward law enforcement?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you think -- think your case was --.was
25 handled appropriately?
280
1 A Yes.
2 Q Have you, or a close friend, or relative , been
3 the victim of a sexual assault?
4 A No.
5 Q Have you , a close friend , or family member, ever
6 been arrested?
7 A No.
8 Q Charged with any crime?
9 A No.

16 juror in this case, would you be able to follow
18 A Yes.
19 Q Uh, likewise , there would be another instruction
20 that would tell you that Mr. Dassey has a
22 he decides not to testify, you cannot hold that
23 against him . But, rather, you would have to base
24 your decision on the evidence that was presented
25 in the case . Can you follow that one as well?
281
1 A Yes .

5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I just have one , and
6 maybe I missed the question.
9 Q Have you d i scussed this case with any friends ,
10 neighbors , or family?
11 A No. My husband ' s aware
12 Q After you got
13 A of the
14 Q the summons?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Nothing else.
17 THE COURT: All right. Thanks. You may
18 step down.
20 THE COURT : Oh, uh, any motions on t his?
23 THE COURT: Okay. Uh, she ' s to be seated .
24 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Juror No. 161,
25 David Mortimer.
282
1 THE COURT : Hi , Mr . Mortimer . Take a seat .
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q Mr. Mortimer, this is individual voir dire. I'm
5 going to ask you some questions. Counsel may
6 have some follow-up questions.
7 This case, State vs. Brendan Dassey, has
8 received a lot of publicity. Have you heard
10 A Um, a little bit. Not -- I don't really don't watch
11 the news too much so I 've heard a little b it . That 's
12 it.
13 Q What is the source of whatever information it is
14 that you have?
15 A I just heard that , uh, he was involved with -- wi th
16 the murder case , and t hat was it pretty much.
17 Q Based on what you heard, have you formed any
18 opinion as to h i s guilt or innocence?
19 A None.
21 A No.
22 Q Have you had any family member or a friend who
23 was killed accidentally or othe rwise?
24 A No .
283
2 A No .
3 Q Have you, or any close friend, or relative , ever
6 or not?
7 A No.
8 Q Uh , if you were called to serve in this j ury,
9 could you disregard anything that you had -- had
10 read or heard in the media , or from any source ,
11 and decide this case based solely on the evidence
12 produced through court?
13 A Yes .
14 Q Uh, have -- have , uh -- have you had any close
15 friend or relative who's been the victim of a
16 sexua l assault?
17 A No.
18 Q Have you , a close f ri end, or a family member,
20 A My son was.
21 Q And he was arrested for what?
22 A Theft .
23 Q Was he charged with theft?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was he convicted?
284
1 A Um , probation. That's it. And some fines.
2 Q How long ago did t his occur?
3 A Um , this was when he was like 17 -- 16 or 17 . Right
4 around that age .
5 Q And he ' s how old now?
6 A Nineteen.
7 Q So this this happened a couple of years ago?
8 A Yeah .
9 Q Was he charged as -- as a juvenile or was he
10 charged in adult court?
11 A Juvenile.
12 Q So this is a juvenile delinquency?
13 A Yes .
14 Q Did you believe that his case was f airly handled
15 by the law enforcement authorities?
16 A Yes.
17 Q That the - - the resolution of it was appropriate?
18 A Yes .
20 would be instruc t ed that Brendan Dassey is
25 instruction as a juror?
285
1 A Yes .
2 Q Uh , if you were selected as a juror , you wou l d
3 also be instructed that Mr . Dassey has a

4 constitutional right not to testify in the case .
5 If he chose to exercise t hat right , you could not
6 hold that against him. Rather , you would have to

7 bas e your decision solely on t he evide nce that
8 came in to the case i tself. Could you follow
9 that instruction?
10 A Yes .
15 Q Um , just so I ' m c lear, and I may have not heard
16 the answer, but , um, other than your son , no one
17 else was arrested for any type of an offense?

18 A No .
19 Q Um, what ' s your date of birth, sir?
20 A 3/12 / 66 .
21 Q Thank you . Anyone in your family ever been
22 arreste d f or is suing a worthless check?
23 A Um, my wife was.

24 Q Okay. And how -- how was that resolved?
25 A Uh , she spent -- she spent, like , 12 days in jail and
286
1 had to pay a fine of $2 , 800 .
2 Q Okay. So , um - - so there were other -- other
3 than your son, there were other family or other
4 friends who were arrested and convicted of an
5 offense?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Okay. Um, any other, um, arrests or anything
8 like that you can think of?
9 A No, not right offhand. No .
10 Q Uh, anyone suspected of any type of, um, uh,
11 serious offenses?
12 A No.
13 Q Okay. Um, that 's all I have. Thanks.
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I have nothing.
16 THE COURT : Thank you . You may step down.
18 THE COURT: Motions, if any? Understanding
19 this is one of the -- the extras .
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right . There seems to be
21 a fair amount of forgetfulness . Um, it -- it ' s the
22 same concern I have with respect to Mr . Covington .
23 I mean, they say, no , in their questionnaires , with
24 the exception of the one identified. They say, no,
25 to the Court, and t hen when confronted with, um,
287
1 information that other family members, or t hey ,
2 themselves, have been arrested, it's, like, o h,
3 well, yeah . Um, so, I mean, to be fair and
4 consistent I'm going to move to strike for cause.
5 I thi nk there ' s reason to doubt some of
6 the answers based on -- I don't see how you
7 forget that stuff. It's just -- I -- I don't see
8 how Mr . Covington can forget doing five days in
9 jail, and I don't see how this gentleman can
10 forget his wife was arrested , had to pay twelve
11 hundred bucks . Which, from based on what t his
12 guy does for a living, that ' s -- that's a -- a
13 tidy bit of coin . So I think it's a question
14 for - - strike for cause.
15 THE COURT: He said twenty-eight hundre d
16 dollars .
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: Twenty-eight hundred.
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Well, I mean , if that's
20 the whole issue , that he forget about the wife he ' s
21 separated from, I -- and, again, I don't know - -
22 ATTORNEY FALLON : It -- it --
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Jurors
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: I'm sorry. I cut you
25 off.
288
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That 's okay . But --
2 THE COURT : Yeah . Uh , in Mr. Covington ' s
3 case , I -- I found the -- the explanation somewhat
4 more plausible . In this particular instance, I -- I
5 find it hard to believe that , uh , he could -- this
6 gentleman, and maybe I'm underestimating him, but

7 that he could forget that someone who had been
8 convicted , served some jail t i me , and paid a fairly
9 significant fine.
10 Uh , I -- I'm going to grant the motion
11 on this one for cause. Next person .
13 Diane Blythe .
14 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Ms. Blythe .
15 JUROR BLYTHE : Hi .
16 THE COURT: You can toss that down on
17 that other table if you wish.
19 BY THE COURT:
20 Q This is the individual voir dire of which I
21 talked about earlier today . I 'm going to ask you
22 a few questions. Counsel may or may not have
23 follow- up questions of you .
24 Uh , this case , the State vs . Brendan
25 Dassey, has received a lot of publicity. Have
289
1 you heard anything about the case?
2 A Yes.
3 Q From what source did you get that information?
4 A Um , newspapers , and the radio , and TV .
5 Q Based on the information, have you formed any
6 opinions about the guilt or innocence of

7 Mr. Dassey?
8 A Um, well, not really . No.
9 Q The answer is no?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay . Have you discussed the case with others?

12 A Yes.
13 Q Uh, substantial discussions or simply in passing?

14 A Just in passing .
15 Q Based on any of the discussions that you may have
16 had, did that give rise to any opinions as to

17 this defendant's guilt or innocence?
18 A No.
19 Q You had a family member or a friend who was

21 A No.
22 Q Uh, have you, a family member, or a close friend,

24 A No.
290
1 case , could you disregard anything that you had
2 read or heard in t he media, or any other source ,
3 and base your decision solely on the e vidence

4 that comes before the Court?
5 A Yes .

7 been t he victim of or a witness to any kind of
8 crime, whether it was reported to law enforcement
9 or not?
10 A No.
11 Q Ever have a -- a friend or anyone in your family

12 that, uh, was the victim of a -- a sexual
13 assault?
14 A No.
15 Q Uh, have you, a close friend , or a family member,

17 A No.
18 Q Anybody charged with a crime?
19 A No .
20 Q I see in your questionnaire that your husband is

21 employed at the Department of Justice; is that
22 correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Uh, would that -- would the fact that he was
25 employed at the Department of Justice move you in
291
1 one way or another in considering this case?
2 A No.
3 Q Uh, Mr. Fallon, who's seated at counsel table
4 over there, is also employed at the co un sel --
5 uh, or is also employed by the Department of
6 Justice . You understand that?
7 A Yes .
8 Q Do you know him?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you ever heard your husband talk about him?
11 A No.
12 Q The fact that both your husband and Mr. Fallon
13 are employed -- I think your husband's a lawyer
14 as well?
15 A Correct .
16 Q As attorneys at the Department of Justice, uh ,
17 does that give you any feeling that you might
18 favor the side that the DOJ person is on?
19 A No .
20 Q If you were selected as a juror, you will be
292
1 instruction?
2 A Yes.
3 Q If you were selected as a juror in t h is case , you
4 would also be instructed that Mr . Dassey has a
5 constitutional r i ght not to testify , and that if
6 he decides to testify, uh , that cannot be held
7 against him . Rather , the decision that you make
8 would have to be based solely on the evidence
9 introduced at trial . Could you follow that
10 instruction?
11 A Yes .
12 Q You noted , I think , also , i n you r questionnaire
13 that the -- at least as you understood it , the
14 events of -- of the allegations in here may be
15 difficult for you to either contemplate or v i ew;
16 is that correct?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Do you think as -- as par t of the jury , you could
19 get through that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right .
22 THE COURT : Mr . Fal l o n?
293
1 Q Just so that we ' re clear , um, Ms. Blythe , your
2 husband works in what particular unit for the
3 Department of Justice?
4 A Um, I think he works in the SPAR Unit .
5 Q All right. State Programs -- And that ' s an
6 acronym for , uh , State Programs , Agencies and
7 Revenue; correct?
8 A Um, I don't know .
9 Q Okay. Fair enough . Um, he does not practice any
10 criminal law; correct?
11 A Correct .
12 Q That 's all I have.
13 THE COURT: Mr . Fremgen , anything?
16 Q Uh , how long has your husband been at the
18 A You know , I thought you were going to ask me that
19 question . I think about two years .
20 Q Okay. Have you ever discussed with your husband
21 this case at all?
22 A Well, yes.
23 Q Okay. Since your summons , you discussed it ,
24 obviously
25 A No .
294
1 Q Oh.
2 A No. Um, um - - Well , I knew that I -- I mean, I got a
3 summons to appear . Then I read in the newspaper that
4 realized at that point that I woul d -- could be a
5 potential juror for this case , and so I just said at
6 that point the -- the case that I could be on woul d

7 be the this case. That's all .
8 Q Okay. In - - in the past when you ' ve discussed - -
9 or did you -- well
10 A But once I got the questionnaire, then I did
11 not
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- discuss it .
14 Q But prior to that?
15 A Right. Just when I knew -- realized from the
16 newspaper, when they reported that this was going to
17 be -- the jurors were going to be picked on April 12,
18 then I realized that was when I was corning in.
19 Q Uh, prior to today , prior to the Judge asking
20 questions, did you know that, uh , another
21 attorney from t he same Department was involved in
22 the prosecution o f t his case?
23 A Well -- Yes, I did.

24 Q From talking to your husband?
25 A Yes . Because he said -- he said the likelihood of
295
1 you being picked is not very high because I work for
2 the Depart ment of Justice .
3 Q The Judge had asked you if you felt because of
4 that , uh, employment and the relationship, I
5 suppose , t hat you would feel more inclined to
6 side with the State . Let me ask it this way :
7 Would you feel -- If you were not to find
8 Mr. Dassey guilty, woul d you find it to be
9 a wkward to talk to your husband about it?
10 A No .
11 Q Do you think there would be any awkward feelings
12 at all?
13 A No.
14 Q I have nothing else .
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: One -- one followup , I 'm
16 afraid .
19 Q What -- what type of l aw did your husband
20 practice before he came to the Department of
21 Justice?
22 A Um, well, he was in private practice at Lawton and
23 Cates , and he worked with, um, like Oscar Mayer
24 Un ion, um , that -- t hat kind of work .
25 Q Business, corporate , labor?
296
1 A Labor. Yes .
2 Q That's all I have .
3 THE COURT : Thank you . You may step down.
5 THE COURT: Any motions?
8 THE COURT : All right . Next juror .
9 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT: Juror 187, Kathleen
10 Pieroni.
11 THE COURT: Good afternoon, Ms . Pieroni .
12 JUROR PIERONI : Good afternoon.
13 VOIR DIRE EXAMI NATION
14 BY THE COURT :
15 Q This is individual voir dire. I'm going t o be
16 asking you a few questions . Counsel may have
17 some follow-up questions .
18 A Okay.
19 Q Uh, this case , State vs . Brendan Dassey, has
20 received a lot of publicity. Have you heard
21 anything about this case?
22 A No , I haven ' t .
23 Q So this -- your involvement in this process is
24 the first t ime that you've heard anything --
25 A Right.
297
1 Q - - about it?
2 A Right.
3 Q Have you formed any opinions relati ng to t he --
4 the guilt or innocence of Mr. Dassey?
5 A No, I have not .
6 Q Have you had fami l y members or -- or - - or a
7 friend who was killed accidentally or otherwise?
8 A No .
9 Q Uh, have you, a family member , or a close friend ,
11 A No .
12 Q Have you , or has any clos e friend, or relative ,
14 crime, whether it was reporte d to law enforcement
15 or not?
16 A No.
17 Q Uh , have you, or a close friend, or relative ,
18 been the victim of a sexual assault?
19 A No.
20 Q Have you , a close friend, or family member , e v er
21 been arrested?
22 A No .
23 Q Anybody charged with a crime?

24 A No .
25 Q If selected as a j uror in this case, you wi ll be
298
1 instructed that Mr. Dassey is presumed innocent
3 offense , unless and until the State h as proven
5 doubt. Could you follow that instruction?
6 A Yes, I could .
7 Q Likewise , there wi ll be an instruction that will
8 tel l you that Mr. Dassey has a constitutional
9 right not to testify in this case , and that if he
11 against him . Instead , you must base your
12 decision solely on the evidence introduced at
13 tri al . Can you follow that instruction?
14 A Yes , I can.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon , any questions?
16 ATTORNEY FALLON : Um, just one.
19 Q I see from the questionnaire your, uh , son-in-law
20 is a public defender in Brainerd, Minnesota?
21 A Yes , he is.
22 Q Al l right . Do you talk shop with him at all?
23 A No , I don ' t.
24 Q All right . Um, ever kick around any cases that
25 he may work on?
299
1 A No , not really. Um, I usually go up there just for
2 the grandkids. I don ' t care what he's doi ng .
3 Q God bless you. That sounds ve r y familiar to
4 somebody I know. That's all I have . Thank you.
5 A Okay .
6 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen , anything?

7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , Judge.
8 THE COURT: Thanks .
9 JUROR PIERONI : Okay .
10 THE COURT : You may step down.
15 THE COURT : All right. We 'll do the next
16 one.
17 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : J uror 200, Paul
18 Steichen .
19 THE COURT: Hi, Mr . Steichen. You can put
20 your jacket down on the -- the desk or any place
21 you -- you please.
22 JUROR STEICHEN: Thanks.
24 BY THE COURT :
25 Q This is the individual voir dire of which I spoke
300
1 earlier today. I ' m going to ask you a few
2 questions. Counsel may have some follow-up
3 questions for you .
4 Uh, the first of those questions is
5 this: This is -- this case, the State vs.
6 Brendan Dassey, has received a substantial amount
7 of publicity. Uh, have you heard anything about
8 this case?
9 A Just -- Nothing recently. I haven't followed it or
10 anything, specifically.
11 Q Could I ask you to -- to take that mike and push
12 it just a litt l e clos
13 A Oh .
14 Q - - closer to you? Um , it sounds as though at one
15 point or another you did hear something about it?
16 A Right. Yes.
17 Q What was the source of what you heard?
18 Newspaper? TV?
19 A Uh, newspaper. Or , I mean, TV and a little bit of
20 newspaper.
21 Q Based on what you heard, have you formed any
22 opinions about the guilt or innocence of
23 Mr. Dassey?
24 A No.
25 Q Have you discussed this case with other people?
301
1 A No.
2 Q Have you had family - - a family member or a
3 friend who was killed accidentally or otherwise?
4 A No .
5 Q Uh , have you , a family member , or close friend ,
7 A No.
8 Q If you were called upon to serve as a juror in
9 this case , could you disregard anything you may
10 have read or heard in the media , or from any
11 source , and decide this case based solely on the
13 A I could.
14 Q Have you , or any close friend , or relative , ever
15 been the victim of or witness to any kind of
18 A Uh , I 've had a friend who's been a victim.
19 Q What sort of crime was he a victim of?
20 A Um, it was assault . A stabbing.
21 Q Uh, according to your questionnaire you don ' t
22 think anyone was - - was caught or charged; is
23 that correct ?
24 A Uh, not that I ' m aware of .
25 Q We re you satisfied, uh , in the manner in which
302
1 the police handled it?
2 A Um, it -- it happened to him in the, uh, Virgin
3 Islands.
4 Q Oh . Okay.
5 A So it wasn't
6 Q We're not talking about , uh, authorities here in
7 the United --
8 A Oh .
9 Q -- States?
10 A No, not here.
11 Q Okay . Any anyone else that you can -- can
12 think of? Friend that's been, um, victimized?
13 A No, not that I can think of .
14 Q Uh, have any close friends or relatives of yours
15 ever been the victims of sexual assaults?
16 A No.
17 Q Have you, a close friend , or family member, ever
18 been arrested?
19 A No .
21 would be instructed that -- that Brendan Dassey
22 is presumed innocent and that he cannot be found
303
1 instruction?
2 A Yes.
4 would also be instructed that Mr. Dassey has a
6 he decides not to testify, you cannot hold that
7 against him. Rather, you must base your decision
8 solely on the evidence introduced at trial . Can
9 you follow that instruction as well?
10 A I could.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Fallon, any questions?
16 JUROR STEICHEN: Thanks.
17 (Wherein j uror is escorted out.)
18 THE COURT: That, uh, is the 34th, at least
19 by my count , person to be seated. Um - - I 'm sorry .
20 Was there a motion on this one? I 'm assuming
21 there -- uh
23 THE COURT: - - we've not heard one --
25 THE COURT: - - that there 's no
304
1 objection. Um, based on our last discussion, I'm
2 going to excuse a l l but five of the, uh -- five
3 of the panel members or the pool members. We'll

4 keep five in reserve next to the four. Uh, it's
5 an excessive caution, but given the track record
6 in the last case, uh, I 'd rather be excessive on
7 the cautionary side than not. Uh, does anyone
8 object to that procedure?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: Um, no, Judge.

11 THE COURT: We then wil l take a break
12 and - - uh, okay. We'll take a break. You're going
13 to have to set up in the other -- in the other

14 courtroom. Let 's take, uh, about, uh -- Go ahead.
15 BAILIFF: What -- what is the procedure
16 we're going to do? Because I -- he had some

17 questions. I think we have some questions about
18 how we're going to move him with people in the
19 courtroom and stuff like that .
20 THE COURT: Okay. What what we're going

21 to do is is as follows: We wi ll excuse all
22 juror or all pool members who are out there now
23 except five, who are sort of backups to the extra

24 four that we've chosen. We have 34 seated. Okay?
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: The next five we're going
305
1 to keep and then everyone else can be excused.
2 THE COURT: You understand that; right?
3 BAILIFF : I understand.
4 THE COURT: Okay .
5 BAILIFF : So we'll have nine all
6 together i n reserve.
7 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Nine extra.
8 THE COURT : Nine extra . Uh , yeah . And ,
9 uh, the -- the other folks are excused. They s hould
10 call in just - -
11 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : We ' ll give t hem a
12 sheet .
13 THE COURT : Okay . Okay . Okay .
14 JUDICIAL ASSISTANT : Want me to do that
15 now?
16 THE COURT: Sure . Do it now. Uh , we ' ll
17 take about , uh , five or te n minutes here so -- one
18 second -- so , um , Jenny can set up in t he other
19 courtroom. Ques t ion?
20 BAI LIFF : So they ' ll call in tomorrow to
21 make sure that we don ' t need them? Is that what
22 you ' re saying?
23 THE COURT : I will - - that's -- that's a
24 good question.
25 BAILIFF: Right .
306
1 THE COURT: And I think t hat ' s fair .
2 BAILIFF : Okay . And then the next
3 question is , t he jurors that are up there, and

4 the extra jurors , are we going to kick them al l
5 out of the courtroom and then move Mr . Dassey
6 over, or are we going to wait unt il you a ll go
7 over t ogether at one time when we ' re done with
8 the break so
9 THE COURT : We --
10 BAILIFF : I don't know how you guys
11 are --
12 THE COURT : Yeah.
13 BAILIFF : -- try to run things so -- so
14 things aren ' t - -
15 ATTORNEY FALLON : I - - I -- I would
16 I - - I would recommend excusing them for ten
17 minutes , te ll them to go out and s tret ch their
18 legs . We may go another t wo hours . And, um - - I
19 mean , if you want to get done tonight, but - - and
20 do strikes tonight, it ' s -- its not --
21 THE COURT : All r ight . That ' s
22 that's - - that' s a f air suggestion .
23 ATTORNEY FALLON : And then you guys can
24 set up a room --
25 THE COURT: Let's go off the record .
307
1 (Discussion off t he record . )
2 (Recess taken a t 4:21 p.m. to move to
3 the other courtroom.)
4 (Reconvened at 4:38 p.m . )
5 THE COURT : Let's go back on the record.
6 Uh, l adies and gentlemen, I told you at the ou tset

7 of this proceeding that after we completed
8 individual voir dire we wou l d do something called
9 general voir d ire .
10 Uh , it has taken a substantial amount of
11 time today to complete the individual voir dire .
12 The general voir dire, which I expect will
13 certainly not las t as long, will, however ,
14 probably ta ke some time .
15 Accordingly , counsel , uh, have , uh,
16 requested, and I 've g ranted the request, that we
17 ad journ for the da y, and t hat we take this up
18 again tomorrow at 8:30.
19 Um, I 'm going to remind you of the
20 admonishment not to speak to anyone about a ny
21 aspect of t hi s case , not to look at any news
22 report , listen to any news report . Uh , you are ,
23 as part of this jury panel , ordered not to do

24 t hat .
25 Uh, Mr. Kratz , this is the - - anything
308
1 further to add?
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No , Judge . I think

3 that - - that states it correctly .
4 THE COURT: Mr . Fremgen?

5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, Judge . Thank
6 you .
7 THE COURT : So tomorrow we wi ll see you
8 here at 8 : 30 , and by " you" I mean the 30 people that
9 are in the box , the additional four people, and we
10 have an additional five beyond t hat; correct?
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Thirty-nine . Yes,
12 Judge .
13 THE COURT : Thirt y-nine . All right . We 're
14 adjourned .
15 (Court stands adjourned at 4 : 42 p . m. )
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309
)SS .
4 I , Jennifer K. Hau , Official Court
6 of Wisconsin , do hereby certify that I reported
10 in machine shorthand , and by computer-assisted
14 knowledge and ability .
15 Dated this 11'1 day of , l).gurntuv , 200 7.
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310
BRANCH 3
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STATE OF WISCONSIN,
4
5 VOIR DIRE - DAY 2
8 DEFENDANT.
10
11
BEFORE:- HON. JEROME L. FOX
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
16 THOMAS FALLON
Special Prosecutor
18 NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
20 MARK R. FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
Attorney at Law
Defendant
1
COPY
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2 !mANSCRIP'l' OF PROCEEDINGS

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2
1 (Reconvened at 8:39 a.m.; Jurors present.)
2 THE COURT: Looks as though everyone's
3 here. I'll call the, uh -- We'll go on the record.
4 This is the matter of the State of Wisconsin vs.
5 Brendan Dassey. It's a Manitowoc County case,
6 06 CF 88. Appearances.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Good morning,
8 Your Honor. The State appears by Assistant
9 Attorney General Tom Fallon, District Attorney
10 Ken Kratz, and Assistant District Attorney Norm
11 Gahn as special prosecutors for Manitowoc County.
12 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, Attorney Mark
13 Fremgen appears in person with Attorney Ray
14 Edelstein. Brendan Dassey appears, also, in
15 person.
16 THE COURT: Thank you, gentlemen. Uh,
17 members of the jury panel, yesterday I told you at
18 the close of individual voir dire we would do
19 something called, uh, general voir dire. Again, uh,
20 the purpose of general voir dire is not to invade
21 anyone's privacy, but, rather, to get sufficient
22 information to assure everyone involved in this case
23 that the final jury will be fair and impartial.
24 I'm going to ask a number of questions.
25 If your answer to any of these questions is
3
1 yes -- yes, I ask that you please raise your
2 hand. I ask that those panel members who are not
3 in the jury box listen to -- carefully to all the
4 questions that I'm asking. If one or more of the
5 jurors in the jury box are excused, one of you
6 will be called from the panel to replace them.
7 If that occurs, I will ask a few general
8 questions covering all the previous questions and
9 ask for your response.
10 Once I have completed my general voir
11 dire, each side, beginning with the prosecution,
12 will be permitted to ask questions. After they
13 have completed their questions, each side will be
14 permitted to strike a number of names from the
15 panel until we have a final jury.
16 As I told you yesterday, the final panel
17 will consist of 16 persons. So I'm going to
18 start with the questions.
19 Is there anyone of you that is related
20 by blood, marriage, or adoption, or acquainted
21 with the defendant, Brendan Dassey, who is seated
22 at the defense table?
23 Do any of you know any member of the
24 defendant's family or relations?
25 Do any of you know the defendant's
4
1 attorneys, Mark Fremgen or Ray Edelstein, both of
2 whom practice in Oshkosh?
3 I'm going to ask one of these
4 attorneys We're going to have a number of
5 witnesses during the course of this case. Uh,
6 most of the witnesses have no connection with,
7 uh, the Dane County area, but I'll ask one of the
8 defense attorneys to identify any witness or
9 witnesses that they may have who have connections
10 with the Dane County area.
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: There's a -- One
12 witness will be Mike Riddle. Works at the, uh,
13 Crime Lab here in Madison. I imagine also lives
14 in Madison.
15 THE COURT: All right. Is anyone
16 acquainted with Mike Riddle?
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: The other is a
18 Dr. Robert Gordon. He's a forensic psychologist
19 from Janesville.
20 THE COURT: Anyone acquainted with
21 Dr. Robert Gordon? All right. Thank you.
22 Are any of you acquainted with the
23 prosecutors; Attorney Ken Kratz, Tom Fallon, or
24 Norm Gahn? Mr. Kratz is the district attorney of
25 Calumet County, Mr. Fallon, to give this a little
5
1 context, is with the Department of Justice, and
2 Mr. Gahn is an assistant district attorney in
3 Milwaukee County. Anyone acquainted
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge --
5 THE COURT: -- with them? There may be
6 a number of witnesses from the Dane County area
7 that testify for the prosecution. I ask one of
8 the prosecutors to identify those witnesses.
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: Thank you, Judge. Uh,
10 morning. The first four names are, um, special
11 agents for the Wisconsin Department of Justice.
12 They're not based in Madison, but they come to
13 Madison frequently. They are Tom Fassbender, Kim
14 Skorlinski, Torn Sturdivant, Ron Pevytoe.
15 Uh, other witnesses with Madison
16 connections and are Sherry Culhane from the
17 Wisconsin Crime Lab, a DNA analyst; Uh,
18 Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, a forensic anthropologist,
19 uh, who also works for our State Historical
20 Society; uh, Dr. John Ertl from the Crime Lab;
21 Bill Newhouse from the Crime Lab here; Kenneth
22 Olson from the Crime Lab; Dr. Don Simley, a
23 forensic dentist based here in Madison; Mr. Nick
24 Stahlke, also of the Crime Lab; and I believe
25 Counsel may have already mentioned, uh, Mike

1 Riddle, a fingerprint analyst from the Crime Lab.
2 THE COURT: Thank you. Are any of you
3 acquainted with any of these persons?
4 Have any of you any interest in this
5 case or its outcome?
6 Is there -- Are there any among you who
7 is a member of any police department, sheriff's
8 department, or other law enforcement agency?
9 Is there any member of your immediate
10 family or relation who's employed in a law
11 enforcement-related capacity?
12 All right. I'm going to start over
13 over here with Ms. Hayman Ware. If I recall
14 correctly, your husband is a police officer?
15 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Uh, and I think we touched upon
17 this in individual voir dire yesterday. Does --
18 does that, in your own mind, mean that you would
19 favor the -- the side that, uh, reflected law
20 enforcement values?
21 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: No.
22 THE COURT: That you would be able to --
23 to -- to hear the evidence and decide fairly and
24 impartially based on what you heard in court?
7
1 THE COURT: There was another hand that
2 went up. Uh, you are Ms. Garske?
3 JUROR GARSKE: Correct.
4 THE COURT: And who is in law enforcement?
5 JUROR GARSKE: My brother.
6 THE COURT: Uh, is he a local law
7 enforcement agent?
8 JUROR GARSKE: No.
9 THE COURT: Where is he located?
10 JUROR GARSKE: Arkansas.
11 THE COURT: Does the fact that you have a
12 family member or a brother involved in law
13 enforcement affect the way you look at this case?
14 JUROR GARSKE: No.
15 THE COURT: Maybe -- You believe that you
16 can decide this case fairly and impartially based on
17 the evidence that is brought to court?
18 JUROR GARSKE: Yes.
19 THE COURT: All right. Was there -- Oop,
20 we have more hands up here. I'll -- I'll go and --
21 Mr. Drewsen?
22 JUROR DREWSEN: Yeah. I have an uncle
23 who's a, uh, Chief of Police in Woodruff,
24 Wisconsin.
25 THE COURT: Your uncle is the Chief of
8
1 Police in -- of Woodruff; is that correct?
2 JUROR DREWSEN: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Does that fact affect the
4 way you look at the -- this case?
5 JUROR DREWSEN: No.
6 THE COURT: Uh, can you consider the
7 evidence and decide fairly and impartially based on
8 that evidence?
9 JUROR DREWSEN: Yes.
10 THE COURT: All right. I think there was
11 an additional hand? Uh, Ms. Foss?
12 JUROR FOSS: My cousin is a police
13 officer in Lake City, Minnesota.
14 THE COURT: The fact that you have a -- a
15 family member or relative involved in police work,
16 does that affect the way you look at a case like
17 this?
18 JUROR FOSS: No.
19 THE COURT: Can you consider -- Can you
20 base any decision you make on the evidence and only
21 on the evidence that you see in court?
22 JUROR FOSS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Anyone else? Ah. Uh, Ms.
24 Blankenship?
25 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: My father was a
9
1 police officer.
2 THE COURT: And where was he a police
3 officer?
4 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: In Dane County.
5 THE COURT: Does that affect the way you
6 look at this case?
7 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: No.
8 THE COURT: Can you base any decision you
9 make on the evidence that is brought to court?
10 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
11 THE COURT: And render a fair and impartial
12 judgment?
13 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Anyone else? I'm going to
15 address the court reporter. Are you hearing the
16 answers?
17 COURT REPORTER: Yeah.
18 THE COURT: Okay. There's a mike,
19 apparently, that can be used to be passed --
20 COURT REPORTER: I've been able to so
21 far, so
22 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
23 COURT REPORTER: I can -- So far I've
24 been able to hear them okay.
25
10
1 THE COURT: Okay. There's a mike that
2 can be used to be passed around to jury members,
3 and if someone's having difficulty hearing --
4 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right. I was going to
5 suggest maybe that should be made available,
6 because I'm certainly going to invite the jurors
7 to talk during the voir dire, and I'm pretty sure
8 counsel is likewise, so if the jurors want to
9 hear each other's responses, maybe it would be
10 good to
11 THE COURT: Okay. Who's in charge of that?
12 While we're getting the mike, I'll ask the, uh
. .. 13 I'll ask the next question .

'
14 Is there any among you who believes that
15 a person is likely to be guilty simply because
16 that person has been charged with a crime?
17 Under our laws, the State has the burden
18 of proving guilt in a criminal proceeding. No
19 defendant is required to prove his or her
20 innocence. A defendant may testify in a criminal
21 trial, but our al -- our laws also provide that a
22 defendant need not testify. Is there anyone
23 among you who cannot or will not accept these
24 requirements of our legal system?
25 Is there anyone among you who would
11
1 impute guilt to this defendant simply because he
2 did not take the witness stand and testify?
3 Would the types of crimes in these
4 charges prevent any of you from serving on this
5 jury fairly and impartially?
6 Is there any among you who cannot or
7 will not try this case fairly and impartially on
8 the evidence that is given here in court, and
9 under the instructions of the Court, and render a
10 just and true verdict?
11 Is there anyone among you who, for any
12 reason that I have not yet touched on, cannot
. •\ 13 serve on this jury?
14 All right. Mr. Fallon? Oh, one moment
15 here. Uh, Ms. Shea?
16 JUROR SHEA: Yes. Can I just say for
17 being on the jury, I just want to reiterate that
18 I'm a student, and I'm kind of getting really
19 nervous about having to take, like, five exams
20 when I come back and missing my finals. I know
21 it's not a legal system but it's --
22 THE COURT: You're a full-time student at
23 the University?
24 JUROR SHEA: Yeah. I just feel like
25 maybe my concentration won't be all there because
12
1 I'll be thinking about everything.
2 THE COURT: I -- Have you made arrangements
3 with your --
4 JUROR SHEA: Yeah --
5 THE COURT: -- teachers?
6 JUROR SHEA: Yeah. I talked to all my
7 professors.
8 THE COURT: Counsel?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: I -- All I can say is
10 we'll definitely keep that in consideration.
12 JUROR SHEA: Okay. Thank you.
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: On behalf of the
14 prosecution team, welcome. Um, I know that, uh,
15 I'll be asking some general questions here, and
16 my, uh, colleague, urn, from Oshkosh, uh,
17 Mr. Frern~en, will also be asking some questions,
18 and we did want to make one point with you as we
19 begin, and that's simply this:
20 There are two points in the trial in
21 which you, as jurors, if you're selected as
22 jurors, have a chance to talk with each other and
23 interface, and, obviously, one is deliberations,
24 but the other one is right now. And the only
25 other time, in fact, the only time, you actually
13
1 get to engage in a dialogue with the attorneys,
2 is now. And so this is your opportunity, and we
3 invite you to participate in the discussion here
4 to help us in -- in selecting 16 of you, and,
5 ultimately, 12, to be the jurors in this case.
6 So we -- we do appreciate your, uh, willingness
7 to be here and we do appreciate any participation
8 in in this regard.
9 Um, in terms of, uh, how we're going to
10 begin, there's about just four or five topic
11 areas that I want to, uh, discuss with you, and,
12 hopefully, elicit some comments from you. Urn,
13 there'll be more discussion, I think, as we get
14 into the issues, and I have some preliminary
15 questions that I'm going to begin with, uh, and
16 that's how I'd like to start.
17 Urn, so the first kind of general area
18 are some safety issue discussions, and my first
19 question of anyone on the panel:
20 Has anyone ever been in charge of
21 writing any kind of safety guidelines or
22 enforcing any safety standards in any employment
23 situation that you may have or any others?
24 Okay. Great. Um, let's do this: We'll
25 start, and we'll go back. Uh, none in the first
14
1 row. And in the second row, we'll start with the
2 hands in the second row. Oh, are -- Okay. Um,
3 Ms. Hayman Ware?
4 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: Yes. Um, I work for
5 Child Welfare, so I often have to come up with
6 safety plans for the children I'm working with
7 and put those in place.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. And, urn, have
9 you been called upon to actually enforce any
10 safety standards in some regards?
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh, tell us about

. : :·.
) 13 that .
14 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: If the safety plans
15 aren't followed by the family, there are times
16 when I've had to remove children from their
17 parents' homes because, um, a safety plan wasn't
18 being followed or children weren 1 t safe even with
19 the safety plan in place.
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. So, in
21 other words, if the plans aren't followed, then
22 there are consequences for not following those
23 plans?
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um, I think
15
1 there was -- Right here? That would be, um
2 JUROR ANDERSON: Anderson, Heidi.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: Ms. Anderson?
4 JUROR ANDERSON: Um, I work for a day
5 care. I watch 12 four- and five-year-olds, and
6 I'm responsible for their safety, and if I feel
7 that the parents or a teacher is negligent, I
8 then have to go through the measures to make sure
9 that the child will stay safe.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. And what kind
11 of measures, um --
12 JUROR ANDERSON: Um, a lot of times it's
13 talking with the parents. Sometimes we have to
14 call authorities, you know, whether it's social
15 workers or the police, to make sure that the
16 child's safety is seen to. A lot of times it's
17 smaller things like making sure the child,
18 itself, doesn't hurt themselves.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. So in terms of
20 your specific role, do you actually en -- enforce
21 any consequences, or do you call upon others to
22 en -- enforce consequences for not following
23 these safety behaviors?
24 JUROR ANDERSON: Legally, I'm not
25 allowed to enforce. I have to go through either
16
1 my director or call an outside individual.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Great. Um,
3 anyone else in row two? All right. Let's jump
4 to row three. Urn, yes, sir. Mr~ Williams?
5 JUROR HEINZEL: Heinzel.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Oh, Heinzel. Excuse
7 me.
8 JUROR HEINZEL: Yes. I worked in, uh,
9 plant operations for about 18 years. Not the
10 past two years, but prior to that 18 years in
11 plant operations in a plant. We had to enforce
12 safety, uh, rules for the plant. If an employee
13 violated a lock-out, tag-out, or wasn't following

l
14 the plant rules, I had to enforce that.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. And, uh,
16 occasionally what were some of the consequences?
17 JUROR HEINZEL: Urn, we would have a
18 discipline program, and maybe a written writeup,
19 a verbal warning, could lead to suspension, those
20 types of things.
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: Very good. Urn, anyone
22 else in row three? All right. How about the
23 back row? Urn, on the far end there?
24 Mr. Johnson?
25 JUROR JOHNSON: Yep. Urn, the -- the
17
1 company that I work for, we're in a warehouse
2 setting, and I'm a manager there, and we have a
3 strict set of guidelines as far as our safety
4 policies and procedures, and, uh, if a associate
5 fails to follow those, um, it's gone anywhere
6 from a written warning to termination.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. And, um,
8 are you one who writes the guidelines, or do you
9 enforce, them or both?
10 JUROR JOHNSON: Enforce them.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: You do. All right.
12 JUROR JOHNSON: Yeah. We -- we have to
13 do a followup and write kind of new guidelines
14 for our store if an accident does happen.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Have you been called
16 upon to enforce those regularly, or is it just
17 something that's an occasional issue?
18 JUROR JOHNSON: Um, it -- it's pretty
19 occasional. I guess I -- I would say we have
20 really good associates.
21 ATTORNEY JOHNSON: Anyone else in the
2.2 back row? Yes. On the far end? Ms. McDonald?
23 JUROR McDONALD: Um, I run a volunteer
24 bird vending, uh, station up at the University of
25 Wisconsin campus natural areas, and I am required
18
1 by the animal welfare, uh, folks on campus to
2 abide by the certain safety guideline.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. And, um,
4 do you write the guideline, or do you enforce, or
5 little of both?
6 JUROR McDONALD: Uh, I am supposed to
7 make sure that the volunteers follow, uh, animal,
8 uh, handling practices, and also safety
9 practices, and we do have certain, uh, rules for
10 health safety reasons.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Are there, uh,
12 consequences? Uh, what kind of -- What are the
13 range of consequences if some of the folks don't
14 follow the rules or the guidelines that are set
15 forth?
16 JUROR McDONALD: Uh, they can make me
17 angry. Uh, I can ask them to not volunteer with
18 our projects.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: That's a polite way of
20 showing them the door?
21 JUROR McDONALD: Yes. Outside, yes.
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Anyone
23 else in the back row? Uh, yes, sir.
24 JUROR: Um, I'm not sure if this is in
25 the same guideline, but I literally do show --
19
1 I -- I literally do show people -- I work at a
2 bar, um, as a doorman --
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right.
4 JUROR: -- is one of my jobs
5 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure.
6 JUROR: -- and so I do -- you know,
7 literally do show people the door occasionally.
8 I don't write -- there 1 s no hard, fast
9 guidelines, but it's just, you know -- I
10 there's no, like, set guidelines for it, but
11 occasionally I do have to evict people from the
12 tavern where I work.
. ' 13 ATTORNEY FALLON: But there is a -- a
14 code of appropriate conduct for a tavern?
15 JUROR: There's an unwritten code.
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Right.
17 JUROR: So -- Yeah.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: I'm just curious,
19 what -- what -- what tavern do you work? I want
20 to make sure where I go.
21 JUROR: Yeah. The Crystal Corner Bar
22 here in Madison.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: Crystal Corner Bar.
24 Okay. Very good. Urn, anyone else? Okay.
25 Great. Urn, next question:
20
1 How many on the panel, um, own a firearm
2 of some sort? Whether it's a -- a hunting rifle,
3 or a -- a handgun, or anything like that? Uh,
4 Mr. Johnson.
5 JUROR JOHNSON: Yes.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh, what -- what do
7 you own?
8 JUROR JOHNSON: Uh, I own two 12 gauge
9 shotguns, and then a 12 gauge deer hunting rifle.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Are -- are those all
11 for hunting purposes?
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um, yes, sir?
14 JUROR: I also own, um, two shotguns and
15 a 30.06 rifle. All --
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: That's Mr. --
17 JUROR: -- for hunting.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: That's Mr. Drewsen.
19 Okay. Uh, were -- were you able to hear that
20 answer, Mr. Covington?
21 JUROR COVINGTON: No, I didn 1 t.
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um
23 JUROR DREWSEN: Sure. Uh, I own two
24 shotguns and a 30.06, all for hunting purposes.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um, anyone
21
1 else? Anyone else own any firearms of any kind?
2 Okay. Great.
3 Um, the next is, uh, let's deal with a
4 little bit about, uh, science and fiction. They
5 don't quite go together the way you might
6 imagine.
7 Um, how many watch television shows
8 like, um, Bones, CSI: Las Vegas, CSI: New York,
9 CSI: Miami? It's going to be CS!: Madison
10 pretty soon. I 1 m not sure. Um, how many watch
11 shows like that?
12 Okay. Very good. We've got lots of
13 hands. All right.
14 Urn, how many would say, in your opinion,
15 based on your general knowledge, and the world,
16 and your own life experiences, that those shows
17 have realistic portrayals of what the science of
18 forensic law enforcement can do? How many say
19 they're very realistic? You don•t believe in
20 flashbacks? Solving crimes?
21 All right. How about, um, somewhat
22 realistic? We got one hand in the back, two,
23 couple?
24 How many think not realistic at all?
25 Okay. Let's -- let's start there in the
22
1 first row. Uh, Ms. Austin, you'd say not
2 realistic at all. So you're a doubter?
3 JUROR AUSTIN: It just seems like -- I'm
4 sorry. Um, I just don't think they're realistic
5 in how, um -- I mean, by chance they come across
6 evidence, or by chance they come across, you
7 know, something that it just is so far out there.
9 JUROR AUSTIN: Just doesn't seem real.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Any particular example
11 jump in your head at all?
12 JUROR AUSTIN: Well, I think one thing
13 that kind of comes to my mind is, um, about -- I
14 don't know how many years ago when ER first came
15 out, my sister is a nurse, and one of her first
16 comments was, you know, shows like that are so
17 unrealistic. So that always sticks in my head
18 when I see these types of TV shows.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Um, anyone else in the
20 first row think that they're
21 JUROR: Do you mean unrealistic if you
22 don't watch them or unrealistic if you do watch
23 it?
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: No. I mean, if you
25 watch them --
23
1 JUROR: I don't watch them.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- do you believe
3 what -- if you -- what you see is a realistic
4 portrayal of how crime is solved?
5 JUROR: Okay.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: That --
7 JUROR: I don't watch it.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: That's the point.
9 Okay. You don't watch them. Um -- All right.
10 How about in the second row? How many think it's
11 just not very realistic at all? Uh, we'll start
12 at the end. Go ahead, Ms. Hayman Ware.
13 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: It doesn't seem like
14 a crime can be solved in that short amount of
15 time, and then they always find someone to
16 confess, and, um, their DNA evidence comes back
17 really quickly. And, um, back to my husband,
18 who's a cop, he sits there and tells me every
19 part of it is unrealistic so ...
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Well, so
21 you get first-hand coaching. Um, and, uh, Ms.
22 Edge?
23 JUROR EDGE: Yeah. First of all, it's a
24 TV show, so I have to assume that it's
25 entertainment. Second of all, I have nothing to
24
1 base it on, so I have no reason to believe any of
2 it is accurate, and it just seems in some cases
3 to be very far-fetched.
4 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. If you
5 have· no basis to, uh -- to to believe it,
6 are -- are you one who's, um, maybe from Missouri
7 and you want to be shown some -- something first
8 or --
9 JUROR EDGE: Excuse me.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, you're a --
11 you're a doubter?
12 JUROR EDGE: That was almost offensive.
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Oh
14 JUROR EDGE: No, I'm not from Missouri,
15 and, uh, it's entertainment. I --
17 JUROR EDGE: -- just don't put more --
18 any more thought to it other than what it is.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Urn, any
20 anyone else in the second row? Mr. Drewsen?
21 Yeah. I think I take it for entertainment value
22 too. I think you see a lot of situations where
23 they're the ones doing it first with their guns
24 drawn. It doesn't really seem realistic.
25 COURT REPORTER: Maybe slow it down a
25
1 little. I 1 m -- I'm not understanding
2 JUROR DREWSEN: Okay.
3 COURT REPORTER: what you're saying.
4 JUROR DREWSEN: Urn, I kind of mumble.
5 Urn, I said I take it for entertainment value. I
6 think a lot of times you see situations in these
7 TV shows that you can say that wouldn't happen in
8 real life.
9 For example, when the CSI are the first
10 on the scene with their guns drawn, to me that
11 doesn't seem realistic.
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Um, row
13 three? Yes. Urn, Ms. Garske?
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, not ver -- not
16 very realistic? Why?
17 JUROR GARSKE: I just don't see it being
18 solved that quickly.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: So time is clearly
20 a -- an issue?
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: What about the manner,
23 uh -- what about the science? Uh, do you think
24 the science is actually capable of doing some of
25 the things that are depicted in the show?
26
1 JUROR GARSKE: I really -- I don't study
2 science so I don't --
4 JUROR GARSKE: pay attention to that
5 part of it.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Um, anyone
7 else in row three, uh, have a perspective? Yes,
8 sir. Mr. Williams?
9 JUROR WILLIAMS: I think it 1 s just the
10 speed of how they solve the crime. That's
11 clearly unrealistic. Um, the best -- Miami has a
12 lot of murders every year. Apparently, this one
13 CS! group can solve them all with -- in 35
14 minutes.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um, how about,
16 uh, in the, uh the last row? Anyone have a--
17 any particular reason why it's not very
18 realistic?
19 All right. Having heard that, we did
20 have some that thought it was somewhat realistic.
21 So for those who did -- who did think it was
22 somewhat realistic, how about a reason why?
23 Who -- How many thinks it might be somewhat
24 realistic? In the back. Sure. Ms. McDonald?
25 JUROR McDONALD: I have a little
27
1 experience in genetics and, uh, other than
2 finding it unrealistic that they have all the
3 state of the art equipment, uh, for doing the
4 forensics, it seems that some of the techniques
5 that they're using are real.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Fair
7 enough. Um, did I see someone shaking their head
8 there? Mr. --
9 JUROR HUGHES: I agree with that.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Mr. Hughes?
11 JUROR HUGHES: Yeah.
' ~.
i
13 else have a comment? Right here in, uh, row --
14 Ms. McGuire.
15 JUROR McGUIRE: I'm a nurse by
16 background so the science makes sense to me.
18 COURT REPORTER: Mr. Fallon, could you
19 identify her again, please?
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yeah, that's, uh, Ms.
21 McGuire.
22 JUROR McGUIRE: I'm a nurse by
23 background so I agree that the -- the science
24 makes sense. The -- the ability to have all the
25 high state-of-the-art equipment is not as
28
1 reasonable, but some of the science is actually
2 there, present to the --
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Uh, and that
4 leads me to my next question. Um, in -- in your
5 background, um, with science, have you had some
6 experience, for instance, with DNA technology?
7 JUROR McGUIRE: Not personally, no,
8 but --
10 JUROR McGUIRE: -- you know, obviously
11 you get science and DNA background in your
12 schooling.
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Um, and -- and
14 so you -- you studied a little bit of it when you
15 were in -- getting your nursing degree?
16 JUROR McGUIRE: Yeah. Back 20 years ago
17 DNA isn't what it is now, but what it was.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: You don't have to say
19 20 years ago. Urn, I'm going to jump right up to
20 Ms. McDonald again. Uh, you said you had some
21 experience in genetics? Could you tell me a
22 little bit about that?
23 JUROR McDONALD: Uh, I -- I've studied,
24 uh, evolutionary systematics in which we used,
25 uh, some DNA technology to look at relationships
29
1 on species, and I work in the genetics
2 department, so I, urn, as a -- administrator, but
3 I interact with some {inaudible).
4 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. You
5 interact with --
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Some geneticists
7 there. Urn, the genetics that you work with, is
8 it all in the animal kingdom, or do you work with
9 human genetics as well?
10 JUROR McDONALD: Only in the sense that,
11 uh -- Well, I've never worked with human
12 genetics.
;~
14 JUROR McDONALD: We are interested in
15 how organisms are related to humans, and so
16 there -- there is information out there that
17 we've used but ...
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Very good.
19 Anyone else have any particular experience in,
20 um, uh, either DNA technology or anything a --
21 along those lines? Genetics? Um, Ms., uh Shea?
22 Pass that down to her.
23 JUROR SHEA: I've had several classes
24 that involve DNA, and DNA sequencing, and things
25 like that.
30
1 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. And, um, is
2 there a particular field that you're studying at
3 school right now? I mean, are you in science per
4 se or --
5 JUROR SHEA: I'm going into nursing.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Uh, how many
7 courses in, um, the DNA technology --
8 JUROR SHEA: Well, it 1 s not totally in
9 DNA, but within classes like zoology, which is
10 animal bacteria, or animal biology and
11 bacteriology. We 1 ve had units all about just --
12 just DNA.
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um, well, how
14 many courses have you had in which there's been a
15 fair amount of discussion, uh, training on DNA
16 issues?
17 JUROR SHEA: At least two or three.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Fair enough.
19 Are you junior? Senior?
20 JUROR SHEA: I'm a sophomore.
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sophomore. All right.
22 Um, anyone else with any particular training in
23 science? We have here in the front row -- could
24 you pass the mike? Oh, wait, we got one in the
25 back row, so might as well start up there. Uh,
31
1 Mr. Oakes?
2 JUROR OAKES: Um, well, my undergraduate
3 degree is in molecular biology from the UW here.
5 JUROR OAKES: So
7 JUROR OAKES: That was also, like, 20
8 years ago.
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: Um, did you, um,
10 practice in the field at all
11 JUROR OAKES: Um
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: were you
13 employed
14 JUROR OAKES: bre
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: in that area?
16 JUROR OAKES: briefly. I worked for
17 Becton Dickinson Microbiology Systems here town.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. What -- what
19 kind of work -- I'm not familiar with that
20 outfit?
21 JUROR OAKES: They -- they make auger
22 for plating out bacteria and other, um -- um,
23 stuff for testing for like, uh, venereal
24 diseases, um, infections, that sort of stuff.
32
1 JUROR OAKES: Urn, so that was about all
2 I know also.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: Very good. Um, I
4 think we had, Ms. um, Lowery here in the front
5 row. We'll get you a mike.
6 JUROR LOWERY: I have very minimal
7 experience, um, in school, and I worked for
8 Becton Dickinson for, like, a week maybe.
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: So
10 JUROR LOWERY: So very minimal, but a
11 little bit.
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. So you
13 just had a -- a smattering of it?
14 JUROR LOWERY: Um-hmm.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Very good. Uh,
16 and in row three? Uh, is that Ms. Harris?
17 JUROR HARRIS: I'm also a nurse, so
19 JUROR HARRIS: I 1 ve had limited
20 experience --
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: So you
22 JUROR HARRIS: yeah. Yeah. And now
23 I work for -- well, with children with, um,
24 profound (inaudible).
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Ah.
33
1 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I didn 1 t
2 understand.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: You'll have to repeat.
4 She couldn't hear your last response.
5 JUROR HARRIS: I am -- I now work with
6 children that are profoundly retarded. That's in
7 the Wisconsin Center.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, so your
9 familiarity with DNA comes more from your formal
10 training as opposed to on-the-job stuff you're
11 doing now?
12 JUROR HARRIS: Correct.
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Great. Okay.
14 Did we get everyone there? All right. I'm going
15 to change gears. And -- and one question here we
16 have, um, in anyone's work, whether it's, urn,
17 nursing, or what have you, do you have occasion
18 to use industrial solvents or cleaning product
19 urn, products, such as paint thinner or bleach, on
20 a regular basis to clean things? Does anyone
21 have a fair amount of experience in that? Yes,
22 sir. Um, we'll start in the back row.
23 Mr. Hughes?
24 JUROR HUGHES: I'm a mechanic at the
25 post office. We have to clean up, uh, equipment
34
1 before we relubricate it, so we're always using
2 solvents and --
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: And do you -- Um, what
4 are some of the solvents that you use?
5 JUROR HUGHES: Mostly it's a
6 degreaser-type of thing, and then we take off
7 the -- the grease from the machinery and that
8 type of thing.
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: These degreasers, do
10 they -- they don't -- do they include bleach and
11 paint thinner, or they use a particular -- some
12 other type of product to degrease or pick up
., 13 that, uh
14 JUROR HUGHES: We -- we do use bleach at
15 times, uh, for spills and things, and we're on
16 the spill team as well, and so to clean up blood
17 and -- and that type of thing, you have to use a
18 ten percent bleach product, and, um, we don't use
19 too much on the machinery, no, uh
21 JUROR HUGHES: the bleach, but ...
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Great.
23 Um, let's start and come -- come back this way.
24 Row three. Yes, sir? Mr. Williams? Or, uh,
25 excuse me, Mr. Heinzel?
35
1 JUROR HEINZEL: Right. Urn, I worked in
2 a number of food plants, and for food safety we
3 would use sanitizers. Urn, we also have
4 blood-borne pathogen training, so if somebody was
5 cut or hurt, we 1 d have to use bleach to -- to
6 clean up that area as well.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Urn, yes?
8 Uh, Ms. Harris?
9 JUROR HARRIS: We use, uh -- it's Quan
10 (phonetic) . You know. I don't know. It's a
11 combination of bleach with -- for all the
12 bacteria purposes, so -- but I'm not sure what it
13 consists of. You know, it's all set up for us
14 because of the problems with germs.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Sure. Urn
16 All right. Row two? Yes. Ms. Anderson.
17 JUROR ANDERSON: As I said, I work in a
18 day care, and one of the safe ways to clean
19 everything is bleach water, so with every room
20 has it locked up in a case, and that's what we
21 use at the end of the days to clean everything,
22 to sanitize --
24 JUROR ANDERSON: -- before the next day.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Very good. And, uh,
36
1 right on the end? Mr. Covington?
2 JUROR COVINGTON: I work at, uh, Oscar
3 Mayer's Food Corporation and Kraft, and we use
4 a -- a lots of type of bleach. One of them, we
5 use, uh, B-K. It's a bleach, but it's stronger
6 than bleach (unintelligible). And it involves,
7 uh, cleaning of steel. We use, uh, AC 300
8 (unintelligible). And it's very strong
9 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, AC
10 JUROR COVINGTON: And then we use a
11 sanitizer --
12 COURT REPORTER: Wait. Sir? Sir?
·. 13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Oop, oop, oop. She's

'
14 having a little hard time. Now, just slow down
15 for her. She's -- can't keep up with you.
16 COURT REPORTER: I just don't
17 understand. I don't understand what he's saying.
18 JUROR COVINGTON: When we sanitizing
19 something, we use, uh, Swisher (phonetic), and we
20 just spray it on there and that kill all the
21 bacteria.
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: ·All right. Okay.
23 JUROR COVINGTON: And we use Enforce.
24 We can't mix B-K --
25 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry --
37
1 JUROR COVINGTON: -- with Enforce
2 COURT REPORTER: I don't --
3 JUROR COVINGTON: that rs for sure.
4 THE COURT: We're we're not -- we're not
5 hearing it here. Just a moment, please. Uh, he had
£ said AC 300 at one point and that was one of the
7 things I think you missed, but the -- the last thing
8 you didn't hear.
9 COURT REPORTER: No.
10 THE COURT: So could we go over that,
11 please, so we can get a record?
12 JUROR COVINGTON: Uh, sure. We use AC
13 300. That's a acid. And it cleans steel.
15 JUROR COVINGTON: You want to clean some
16 steel from corrosive. If something was on it,
17 just cut it out.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right.
19 JUROR COVINGTON: And --
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: What was the other
21 product you used?
22 JUROR COVINGTON: We use, uh, Swisher to
23 sanitize and kill all the bacteria.
24 COURT REPORTER: What was --
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: And that product was?
38
1 JUROR COVINGTON: Uh, it's Swisher. Uh,
2 it kills the bacteria.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Right
4 here. Okay. Ms. McGuire.
5 JUROR McGUIRE: When I was doing
6 hands-on nursing, uh, again, for blood spills and
7 blood-borne pathogens, we used a bleach solution
8 that usually includes some other solvent,
9 fifteen, twenty years ago, that now is most of
10 the time, but mainly bleach.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Yes, ma'am?
12 JUROR: Same thing as Ms. McGuire for,
13 um, blood spills for patients, or any type of
14 thing that we think we might need bleach for --
15 for a patient, but they kind of are moving away
16 to other things like Hepacide-Quat and things
17 like that right now.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. That was Ms.
19 Lowery. Very good. Let -- There's just two,
20 uh -- couple of areas left that I wanted to talk
21 about, and, um, I'm going to begin with this, uh,
22 general statement, which I'm sure that almost
23 everyone here has heard at one point in their

24 life, and probably many times, and let me ask it
25 this way:
39
1 Generally speaking, is there anyone who
2 disagrees with this statement, "where there is
3 smoke, there is fire"? How many have actually
4 heard that phrase? How many have used that
5 phrase? Okay.
6 Um, as a general rule, how many think
7 that's true? That where there's smoke, there's
8 probably a fire? And we've used it
9 metaphorically, but how many would agree with
10 that?
11 Um, let's do that in reverse then. How
12 many don't think it's a truism? All right.
13 Good. Let 1 s -- let's -- let's start with the
14 naysayers. Uh, we'll, uh, begin with
15 Mr. Williams.
16 JUROR WILLIAMS: It's a Cliche, and I --
17 most cliches, life is more complicated than that.
18 There aren't absolutes so ...
20 JUROR WILLIAMS: I mean, it's
21 obviously -- We've all used "where there's smoke
22 there•s fire" but, I mean, has that determined,
23 you know, to look at something differently
24 because of the cliche? I mean, I just think life
25 is more complicated than, "where there's smoke,
40
1 there's fire." I've used it, obviously, but ...
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: Do you think there's
3 some truth in a phrase or is it
4 JUROR WILLIAMS: Well, like all cliches,
5 there's some truth. There wouldn't be cliches if
6 they weren't somewhat truthful.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right. All right.
8 Um, right here. Um, Ms. um, Anderson?
9 JUROR ANDERSON: Um, I don't believe it
10 because there's too many variables in this day
11 and age. I mean, yes, when there's a fire,
12 there's smoke, but there's so many other things
13 that could cause you to believe there's a fire,
14 and then you get there and there isn't one.
16 JUROR ANDERSON: So I'm just -- have a
17 feeling that you need more than one thing to
18 point you to say that, oh, yeah, there's a fire.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. So that
20 you think the cliche has, um, spent its time?
21 JUROR ANDERSON: I agree that when you
22 see smoke, there's a fire, because a fire causes
23 smoke, but I'm not going to say every time I see
24 smoke, I'm going to yell, fire, fire.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Fair enough. Um, yes.
41
1 Back row, Ms. Miletic?
2 JUROR MILETIC: I would treat it as a
3 hypothesis. So, basically, it's a hypothesis.
4 There is a -- there is a smoke, there must be a
5 fire, so now you have to go prove and
6 (uninteiligible).
7 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, could you
8 repeat that last part?
9 JUROR MILETIC: I said I would treat it
10 as a hypothesis, so, then, um, let's go and prove
11 or disprove it.
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Urn, at the
.•. 13 end? Mr., uh, Johnson?
14 JUROR JOHNSON: Urn, as -- as part of the
15 management team for my company, uh, we get a lot
16 of he said-she saids, uh, from employees that may
17 have a gripe against each other, and I'm -- I'm
18 one of the people that has to go kind of
19 investigate that to see what the truth is, and I
20 would say 99 percent of the time, 95 percent of
21 the time, it's just trying to get somebody else
22 in trouble in the -- in the job. You know.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. So for
24 you -- your experience, it's an overused cliche?
25 JUROR JOHNSON: Absolutely.
42
1 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Fair
2 enough. Uh, yes?
3 JUROR: I'm going to come at this from a
4 more literal standpoint. As a Boy Scout, tried
5 to light a lot of fires. On more than one
6 occasion there was smoke and no fire.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. I use that
8 as introduction to this -- to this concept,
9 because this, as you may have, um, surmised, is
10 likely to be somewhat of an issue in the case, so
11 let's talk a little bit about this. I'm sure
12 Counsel will agree.
......... 13 Um, has anyone read, seen or heard

;
14 anything in the media about people who claim they
15 falsely confessed to a crime? How many have
16 heard something or -- about that? Very good.
17 Hands up. All right. Um, let's see. Let's
18 start -- We'll go in the back row and we'll work
19 our way forward again. Uh, let's start with Ms.
20 McDonald. I believe she had her hand up first.
21 JUROR McDONALD: What do you want me to
22 say? I mean --
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: What
24 JUROR McDONALD: -- do you
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: What
43
1 JUROR McDONALD: -- want me to respond
2 to?
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: What have you read,
4 seen or heard about that?
5 JUROR McDONALD: I've been reading
6 stories about, uh, torture, uh, in which, uh,
7 people are, uh -- the only way they can get away
8 from torture is just to confess, and then when
9 they're released, they, um -- they tell their
10 true story.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Urn, have you
12 heard about it in any other context other than in
.. 13 a -- a torture scenario?
~
14 JUROR McDONALD: Um, in some -- I think
15 in in -- in a couple of cases where there were
16 long-term police questioning of particular
17 suspects, they just gave up. The suspect gave up
18 and -- and said what the police wanted them to
19 say.
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Urn, very
21 good. Uh, someone else in the back row? Yes,
22 sir. Mr., uh, Oakes?
23 JUROR OAKES: Nothing very specific but,
24 I mean, through the years you hear about, um, you
25 know, convicts have been in jail for 20 years and
44
1 then recant -- you know, what -- they take back
2 what they said 20 years earlier, or, you know, if
3 there's a famous case, uh, you hear about people
4 writing letters to the police and confessing
5 when, obviously, they're, you know -- they
6 couldn't have done it. So just, in general,
7 there are people who say they've done one thing
8 and it turns out not to be true for one reason or
9 another.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Like the JonBenet
11 Ramsey case for one?
12 JUROR OAKES: Sure. Exactly.
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Yes, sir?
14 JUROR: Yes, I agree with what he just
15 said.
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. That would be
17 Mr., uh, Hughes? All right. Urn, yes, Ms. Shea?
18 JUROR SHEA: Well, I agreed with him
19 also, that you hear about it in the media and
20 people take back their stories.
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, how about, uh, uh,
22 Ms., uh Durst?
23 JUROR DURST: I would agree with what
24 previous jurors have said.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: But you've heard some
45
1 things about it?
2 JUROR DURST: I don 1 t have anything
3 specific.
5 have a specific recollection or circumstance of
6 a -- of a -- of a case of interest to them?
7 Let's go -- this end here with, uh, Ms.
8 Blankenship?
9 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: I just was briefly
10 listening to the radio and they kept referencing
11 those three lacrosse players from the
12 university --
. ... 13 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right .
14 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: And that story
15 apparently fell through and they've all been
16 acquitted now.
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right. Um, but there
18 wasn't a -- attribution to them that they
19 actually admitted any involvement in the offense,
20 was there?
21 JUROR BLANKENSHIP: I didn't follow it
22 that closely. It just seemed like that is
23 sensitized to that.
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Um, yes, right
25 here. Uh, Ms. McGuire?
46
1 JUROR McGUIRE: In addition to some of
2 the cases brought forward, one of the ones
3 recently here would have been more of somebody
4 accusing of a crime that didn't occur, and she
5 confessed that it was fake. The Audrey Sealer
6 case.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Audrey
8 Sealer. Sure. All right. All right. Right
9 next door here, to, uh, Ms. Lowery?
10 JUROR LOWERY: Urn, the one that I
11 remember, urn -- and I'm not really even sure of
12 all the details was all of those people in
13 Illinois they were letting go, a couple years ago
14 even maybe. I don't know even how long ago.
15 They were letting go because they said they were
16 having false confessions, and now they're doing
17 something down there to, I guess, maybe taping or
18 videotaping confessions now.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: Um-hmm.
20 JUROR LOWERY: But I'm not even sure
21 what --
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: The circumstances?
23 JUROR LOWERY: Yeah.
25 JUROR LOWERY: I just kind of heard
47
1 about it.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Okay. Well,
3 let's, um -- let's go to the next question that
4 that would logically bring, and that is, um
5 Well, how likely is it Let's use that as a
6 phrase. How likely is it that a person would
7 claim they had an active role in the commission
8 of a crime and later claimed they did not? I
9 mean, is that, in your experience, a common
10 occurrence or an uncommon occurrence?
11 Let 1 s -- How many think that would be
12 a -- a common occurrence? Anybody?
13 How about uncommon? Okay. Fair enough.
14 What would some of the reasons be in your mind
1.5 for someone to at first claim involvement in the
16 commission of a serious crime and then later say,
17 no, no, that wasn't right, I -- I didn't mean to
18 say that?
19 What would -- What are some of the
20 reasons you think that would motivate somebody to
21 do that? Let's start with Mr., um, uh, Hughes in
22 the back there?
23 JUROR HUGHES: I think attention.
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: Wait for your
25 microphone there.
48
1 JUROR HUGHES: They want some attention
2 or some public some attention.
3 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. All right. Ms.
4 Miletic?
5 JUROR MILETIC: Fear.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Fear? Let's talk a
7 little bit about that. Why?
8 JUROR MILETIC: Because of fear,
9 consequences. If you, uh, don't see something,
10 you might get in trouble, so you say it, and at
11 that moment it probably -- maybe it's, uh you
12 think it's better for you to confess than than
, 13 not to confess, or to tell the truth. I don't
14 know.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, what would be a
16 greater fear in your thinking, then, in the
17 hypothesis you've given me --
18 JUROR MILETIC: Um-hmm.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- what would be the
20 greater fear, uh, of not confessing to a very
21 serious crime? What would be worse than
22 confessing to a very serious crime, and being
23 subject to prosecution and ridicule, and -- What
24 would be worse? What would be a greater fear?
25 JUROR MILETIC: It depends. I mean, we
49
1 have all heard of, um, women that have been
2 abused by their husband and husbands don't end up
3 in jail and the women end up with husbands at
4 home.
5 Or in this particular situation -- I
6 don't know if I can specifically talk about this
7 case, I can see how fear would motivate a person
8 to confess.

10 JUROR MILETIC: Like, for example, the
11 uncle did -- was re -- re -- released once from

12 jail, so the question could be, well, if he get
13 away with this crime, if I, um, cause, anyhow,
14 fear.
16 JUROR MILETIC: Yeah.
18 else have an explanation of why someone might do

19 that? Yes. Ms. Harris?
20 JUROR HARRIS: I think sometimes people
21 get so anxious when they're in a certain setting

22 that they'll say things that, urn -- just to try
23 to get out of the situation.

25 JUROR HARRIS: So lot of it's anxiety?
50
1 ATTORNEY FALLON: What would be some of
2 the manifestations of anxiety do you think?
3 JUROR HARRIS: I think having people
4 around that are, um, you know, asking you a lot
5 of questions, and feeling that they're a lot more
6 powerful than you are --
8 JUROR HARRIS: so you become anxious.
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: What kind of physical
10 manifestations do you think the person would have
11 under those circumstances if they were going to
12 confess to committing a serious matter or offense
13 when -- when they really didn't? If they were --
14 If -- You're saying that they're being questioned
15 and asked a lot of questions by authority figures
1·6 or power figures, would -- would we see some
17 manifestations of this anxiety on the person do
18 you think?
19 JUROR HARRIS: Yeah. I -- I think, you
20 know, you'd have your head down and, um, you
21 wouldn 1 t want to elaborate on a lot of things,
22 but when someone's asking you questions, you go
23 ahead and you try to answer the questions what I
24 think what they would want to hear.
51
1 else? Um, we'll go back to the back row. Ms.
2 McDonald?
3 JUROR McDONALD: This -- this has to do
4 with the psychology experiment that was done
5 decads ago, uh, in terms of social pressures to,
6 uh, respond to a situation, uh, the length of
7 a -- a stick, and most people succumb to the
8 social pressure of, uh, calling the stick longer
9 or shorter than it actually was, and they
10 actually reviewed it or viewed it as themself
11 from their own perspectives.
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: Now, was that study
13 not going in group dynamics as opposed to an
14 individual, one-on-one; if I'm correct?
15 JUROR McDONALD: Uh, it -- it was in a
16 group, yes.
18 JUROR McDONALD: Um, and one person
19 was --
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: And eight people say
21 this is, uh --
2.2 JUROR McDONALD: Hmm.

23 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- really green and
24 the oth -- and
25 JUROR McDONALD: Yes.
52
1 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- and -- and the one
2 person thinks it's blue?
3 JUROR McDONALD: Um-hmm.
4 ATTORNEY FALLON: But --
5 JUROR McDONALD: And -- and most of the
6 people responded that it was green, even though
7 they thought it was blue.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: It was blue.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Right. But that
11 also -- but that was a group dynamic. Uh --
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- that's several
14 people involved as --
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: opposed to a
17 one-on-one or two-on-one
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- discussion
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- right?
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Let's see. We
24 did have some hands -- Yes, sir. In the front
25 row. Mr. Nehrbass?
53
1 JUROR NEHRBASS: If you're, like, trying
2 to protect somebody. Like, you could admit
3 something if you're trying to protect somebody,
4 like, your kid or something, like, say their
5 parent.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: So if you're trying
7 to -- Yeah. If you're trying to protect someone
8 else, you might say you did something. In other
9 words, take th€ rap for
10 JUROR NEHRBASS: Right.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- somebody else --
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: -- or, perhaps,
14 dissuade, urn, somebody from looking -- or
15 accusing a loved one of something?
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Good. Um,
18 anyone else have a reason why someone might do
19 that? Yes. Uh, ma'am -- Ms., uh, Schmitt?
20 JUROR SCHMITT: Yes. Okay. Um, the
21 only other thing, like, in general, that I could
22 think of is if someone was coercing you to give a
23 confession.
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. And what would
25 be some of the indicators in your mind of -- of a
54
1 coercing to getting a confession?
2 JUROR SCHMITT: Um, indicators as far
3 as, like, how you would be able to tell if that
4 person was being coerced?
6 JUROR SCHMITT: Gosh, I don't know. I
7 was just thinking in general terms, but ...
9 JUROR SCHMITT: That•s all I can come up
10 with.
12 else? Yes. Um, Ms., uh, Anderson?
13 JUROR ANDERSON: I go back to the
14 almighty buck. A lot of people do things they
15 normally wouldn't do for money.
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Does anyone
17 think the age of a person might be a factor?
18 Yes? No? Sure.
19 Anyone think that age would not be a
20 factor?
21 How about intelligence? Yes? That's
22 a -- a factor? Sure.
23 Does anyone believe that simply age or
24 intelligence alone is certainly reason enough for
25 someone to say they did something when, in fact,
55
1 they didn't? All right. No thoughts on that.
2 Very good.
3 All right. r 1 m going to go into one

4 more area, and then r 1 m going to pass the
5 questioning to my colleague.
6 Um, a little discussion on distinction
7 between guilt and punishment. That's the
8 context. All right? So let's begin with a
9 couple of easier questions.
10 How many of you have been or are parents
11 of teenagers who were of below average, uh,
12 intelligence or gifts? We got, uh, two?
13 Um, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Hughes. Very
14 good.
15 Let's -- let's start with you two guys.
16 Let's start with Mr. Hughes first. When --
17 when -- Was it a son or a daughter?
18 JUROR HUGHES: Son.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: Son? All right. When
20 your son misbehaved, did you hold him responsible
21 for his behavior?
22 JUROR HUGHES: Up to a point.
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. Let's talk
24 about that. How -- how did you manage the
25 challenge?
56
1 JUROR HUGHES: All right. He was tested
2 by a neuropsychologist and, uh, he was found to
3 have Central Integrative Disorder, and, uh, it's
4 something in his neurological makeup that, um, he
5 really wasn't aware of what he was doing. He was
6 kind of in his own world and, um, they cautioned
7 us to over-discipline him.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: To not
9 over-discipline?
10 JUROR HUGHES: Not to over-discipline.
12 JUROR HUGHES: That, uh, he wasn't

. '\
13 really aware of some of the things he was doing,
14 so ...
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. So how --
16 in in -- in walking that line, how were you
17 able to determine or, um, to discipline when he
18 needed to be disciplined?
19 JUROR HUGHES: Really, I didn't know if
20 I'd made a mistake sometimes, and, um, it was
21 hard. You know, it was hard to determine that
22 with him. If -- if I had known that -- if he was
23 laughing about it, and he was, uh, kind of making
24 fun of the situation, then I would, uh, tend to
25 discipline. If, uh, he showed no signs of humor
57
1 whatsoever, and, uh, if he was doing something
2 inappropriate, then I would have had to sit him
3 down and really talk to him.
4 ATTORNEY FALLON: So if it looked like
5 to you he really didn't appreciate at all the
6 significance of the behavior he was engaged in,
7 you'd go light on him and just kind of sit him
8 down and
9 JUROR HUGHES: Yes. I'd, uh, try to
10 talk with him, reason with him, and, uh, that was
11 his problem. He -- he -- he had some
12 reasoning he doesn't have the deductive
13 reasoning where he can put his ducks in a row and
14 make sense out of things.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Did he know
16 right from wrong?
17 JUROR HUGHES: Somewhat. You know, he
18 didn't know that he was in -- inappropriate at
19 times.
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: Sure. Fair enough.
21 Mr. Johnson?
22 ATTORNEY JOHNSON: I have a 15-year-old
23 son with kind of a more advanced case of ADHD,
24 uh, than you typically see, urn, which leaves --
25 leaves him susceptible to just kind of do things
58
1 on a whim because he thinks they're fun, or it
2 could be fun, without thinking consequences
3 through the end. Um, we do hold him accountable
4 for all those.
6 JUROR JOHNSON: Unfortunately, he thinks
7 of the consequences after he's already done
8 whatever he does, so ...
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: Little impulse issues?
10 JUROR JOHNSON: Absolutely.
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Um, but you do
12 hold him accountable for his behavior?
14 ATTORNEY FALLON: He -- he knows right
15 from wrong?
17 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. He just
18 sometimes forgets to think about that?
19 JUROR JOHNSON: Right. He forgets to
20 think about this could be wrong and -- before he
21 does it.
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Anyone else?
23 All right. Um, how many would agree with this
24 statement; that, um, 16-year-olds are not or
25 should not be held as responsible for their
59
1 behaviors as 18-, 19-, or 20-year-olds as a
2 general rule? Does anyone adhere to that?
3 All right. Let's start in the back row
4 with Ms. Miletic.
5 JUROR MILETIC: Um, I think, um,
6 mentally, um, we don't develop at age 16.
7 Physically, our bodies are more developed than
8 our, um, mental abilities, and, especially,
9 thinking does not develop fully at age 16.
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Um, by age 16, would
11 you agree with the proposition that a 16-year-old
12 knows right from wrong?
13 JUROR MILETIC: Yes, but that doesn't
14 mean that a person cannot do wrong.
15 ATTORNEY FALLON: Cannot what?
16 JUROR MILETIC: I think person knows
17 right from wrong, but a a person can still do
18 wrong.
20 JUROR MILETIC: Uh-hmm.
21 ATTORNEY FALLON: But should they be
22 held accountable for that? Should there be
23 consequences for doing wrong?
24 JUROR MILETIC: I think it's all
25 situational. It depends on the situation. I
60
1 definitely think to a certain degree they have
2 to, but, um, it all depend -- depends on the
3 circumstances.
5 else have a comment on that?
6 Anyone else thinks 16-year-olds should
7 be not -- held not as accountable? Yes, sir.
8 Mr., um, Williams?
9 JUROR WILLIAMS: When you say "not as
10 accountable" are you saying not as accountable as
11 an adult as someone --

... ... I
13 JUROR WILLIAMS: -- that's of 18 or
14 older?
16 JUROR WILLIAMS: Well, I would agree
17 that the the psychological makeup of a
18 16-year-old -- and as a history teacher and
19 working with teenage boys and girls -- to to
20 hold them to the same standards as you or I I
21 mean, I just -- I totally -- I think we all go
22 through our lives and think to ourselves that we
23 did things when we were 16 we wouldn't do when we
24 were 24 and 25.
25 That said, should there be consequences
61
1 for actions that one take -- that person knows
2 that they 1 re doing right or wrong? Absolutely.
3 But you're asking me, shouldn't be held to the
4 same standard as me? I mean, I would find that
5 to be somewhat foolish.
6 I have more life experience, as you have
7 more life experience as I do. It should be held
8 to at least some mitigating circumstances from
9 our own experiences.
11 disagree with that?
12 How many Would everyone agree with
13 that? Yes? No? Okay. Very good.
14 Do you see a distinction between holding
15 someone accountable for their behavior and then
16 determining a punishment for that behavior? Is
17 there a distinction?
18 How many think there's a distinction
19 there between, say, a -- a finding of guilt, for
20 instance, and a --
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, could we have
22 a sidebar on that question, please?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. I have
62
1 just one -- one other circumstance that I wanted
2 to talk with you about.
3 Before I do, could we have a -- a
4 Let's have a little discussion. I want to talk
5 with Counsel about something first.
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, after a
8 discussion with Court and Counsel, I'm going to
9 stop here. My colleague, uh, Mr. Fremgen, is
10 going to pick up and cover some of the things
11 that I was going to cover in any event. So I'm
12 going to pass the, uh, questioning to, uh -- to
13 Mr. Fremgen, and -- and thank you very much for
14 your time.
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you. Good
16 morning again. What's, uh, nice about going
17 second, despite the introduction, I don't have to
18 ask a lot of questions. Mr. Fallon kind of
19 covers most of it.
20 I've been through the jury process
21 before as well. We -- Not as long as you folks.
22 Four hours seemed to be a lot to me, so I'm going
23 to try to keep it as as simple and as short as
24 possible.
25 The, uh, jury process, and this process
63
1 of selecting a jury, yesterday, I believe the
2 Judge explained to you that we're trying to pick
3 a fair and impartial juror, and a lot of the
4 questions that we asked you, and the reason why
5 you're here, is because you answered questions
6 that indicated that you can set aside opinions,
7 you can listen to the evidence, and you can
B follow the instructions.
9 But I -- In regards to jury selection, I
10 think it's just as important for you 30
11 individuals to make a decision within yourself to
12 decide if you're a good juror. Do you think that

.·) 13 you can actually be a juror in this case more so
14 than, maybe, whether Mr. Fallon and I believe
15 that? Besides, part of the process and part of
16 why Mr. Fallon asked you to raise your hands and
17 interact and -- and talk, uh, because that's the
18 process for you as well, to be able to say, can I
19 be a fair and impartial juror? So please feel
20 free to interrupt me. Raise your hands.
21 You, uh -- Fortunately, the jury
22 selection process is somewhat shorter than normal
23 because you were, uh, kind enough to fill out
24 65-question questionnaire, and, uh, it -- it
25 allows us to eliminate a lot of the questions
64
1 that we would normally ask in this process, or,
2 as of yesterday, the individual voir dire.
3 I -- I think it's only fair that -- that
4 we have to proc do the process somewhat as
5 well. I mean, you are we are -- been
6 introduced to you, and I want to introduce myself
7 to you as well in this process, and as the Judge
8 pointed out, I'm an attorney in Oshkosh. I don't
9 think any of you know me. I've only been to
10 Madison once for court, so I never been in
11 this -- this building more than the last two
12 days.
···1
13 And, uh, I also have children as well,
14 and my hobbies are similar to a lot of your
15 hobbies. I like to golf and be involved in youth
16 hockey, urn, and I like to watch CSI as well. So
17 you're no different than the rest of us.
18 One of the questions that, again, you
19 all answered appropriately yesterday, was you
20 could set aside any opinions and you can presume
21 Mr. Dassey innocent.
22 What I want to ask you in that regard
23 is, what if Mr. Dassey chose not to testify?
24 Would that affect your opinion of his innocence
25 right now?
65
1 Would anyone feel differently about him
2 being presumed innocent if he decided I'm not
3 going to talk to you folks when it comes time for
4 the jury? For the trial?
5 Would it change your opinions?
6 Does anyone here feel that you want to
7 hear from both sides at any trial? You think
8 it's important to hear from both sides? You
9 agree with that? Just about everyone? Okay.
10 Now, if Mr. Dassey were to testify,
11 would you agree that he, along -- as well as all
12 other witnesses, that you will consider all the

":·)
13 testimony the same way?
14 Now, let me ask -- preface it this way:
15 You decide who you want to believe, and you
16 decide what weight you want to give any witness.
17 That's entirely up to you. But as you sit there
18 listening to it, you would listen to him no
19 different than, let's say, a police officer.
20 Ms. Ware, would that be okay? You would
21 be willing to listen to Mr. Dassey and give him
22 the same consideration as if a police officer
23 testified?
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: The reason I asked
66
1 you, is you have a police officer for a husband,
2 and I thought that would -- made a nice segue.
3 Does that -- Your relationship, uh, with your
4 husband -- Let me ask you a couple questions
5 about that. Do you feel that police officers,
6 themselves, are more truthful than other
7 witnesses?
8 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: Not necessarily. I
9 think there's all kinds of police officers just
10 like there's all kinds of lawyers or all kinds of
11 social workers.
12 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Touche. So if I can
13 just follow up a little bit, so you would agree
14 that -- that there are times that witnesses --
15 Well, let -- let's not say witnesses. There are
16 times people lie; correct?
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And that would be no
19 different than a police officer?
20 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: Correct.
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Or a lawyer?
22 JUROR HAYMAN WARE: Correct.
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Not today though.
24 Now, there -- In that regard -- In regards to
25 sometimes people lie, would it also be correct
67
1 would anyone -- I guess would you agree that
2 there are times when people just are mistaken?
3 Anyone agree with that?
4 Let me ask, uh, someone who hasn 1 t had
5 their hand up, much. Um, Ms. Rasmussen, you
6 raised your hand?
7 JUROR RASMUSSEN: Well, it's fairly
8 common if you have 12 people seeing something,
9 you're going to get 12 different stories, because
10 no one can see the same thing the same way. We
11 all have different experiences, different filters
12 to how we experience everything by what we've

. '
13 seen in our past.
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: So if you saw
15 something one way, and another person saw it a
16 different way, you're not necessarily lying?
17 JUROR RASMUSSEN: Right.
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Neither is the other
19 person?
20 JUROR RASMUSSEN: Right. It just means
21 then that we were focusing on different things
22 and maybe didn't remember the part that the other
23 person was talking about.
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I saw a couple other
25 hands. Right next to Ms., uh, Tedder?
68
1 JUROR: I think sometimes people just
2 maybe mis -- misspeak and just made an error, but
3 not necessarily mean to lie, but ...
4 JUROR FREMGEN: Besides not -- different
5 perceptions as Ms. Rasmussen pointed out,
6 sometimes you just misspeak?
7 JUROR: Correct.
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And that 1 s -- would
9 you say that's common?
10 JUROR: Um, maybe for some people.
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. When you hear
12 about -- When you watch TV -- A lot of you
13 yesterday would answer the questions that you
14 you watch TV or listen to the radio. Uh, when
15 you hear, for instance, on TV, uh, a news report
16 that somebody was arrested for a crime, those
17 reports happen rather routinely in the news, do
18 you think it's a common reaction or do you have
19 this reaction that, well, you must have done it?
20 Is that a knee-jerk reaction? A normal
21 knee-jerk reaction? Does anyone agree that that
22 can be a knee-jerk reaction at times?
23 Mr. Hughes, you had your hand up?
24 JUROR HUGHES: I think it can. I -- I
25 believe it can be.
69
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. And let me ask
2 you this, and picking on you, Mr. Hughes, just
3 now because you raised your hand. Sorry.
4 JUROR HUGHES:
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Oh, and all you've
6 heard is the two-minute, maybe 30-second news
7 bit?
8 JUROR HUGHES: Yes.

9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Did you have nothing
10 else to go on as to -- far -- as far as whether
11 the person may or may not have done it; correct?
12 JUROR HUGHES: No.
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: So it -- you might be
14 wrong; correct?
15 JUROR HUGHES: Yes.
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: But it's just common
17 nat -- it's human nature; right?
18 JUROR HUGHES: Yeah.
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Ms., uh, Miletic?
20 Miletic?
21 JUROR MILETIC: I didn't raise my hand.
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: You were -- you were
23 shaking your head. I saw you shaking your head.
24 Sorry.
25 JUROR MILETIC: Well, it's true. I
70
1 mean, I live in this society where people are not
2 arrested. I have never witnessed anyone being
3 arrested. So if my neighbor 1 s arrested, I would
4 think like, my gosh, what happened? I wouldn't
5 necessarily think he's guilty, but I would say
6 like, wow, what did he do? I would, um, still
7 wait to see the verdict, but it would be a
8 surprise to me.
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: So you would -- the
10 better process would be, let's see what the
11 actual
12 JUROR MILETIC: Oh, definitely, but I
13 would definitely, like, peek through the window
14 and see what's going on and -- because that
15 doesn't happen. Not in my life.
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. There was
17 another hand. Uh, Ms. McDonald. Sarne answers
18 though?
19 JUROR McDONALD: I think sometimes a
20 knee-jerk reaction is to think, well, this person
21 may be guilty for this reason, uh, but I think
22 that subsequent information may change one's
23 mind.
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: So if you receive
25 more information --
71
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: But in the newscasts,
3 you don't usually get the one and never --
4 JUROR McDONALD: No --
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- see it again?
6 JUROR McDONALD: -- and it's usually on
7 petty crimes that, uh, sort of go by the wayside.
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. Oh, I'm sorry.
9 No. 7? Ms. Shea. You had your hand up, too.
10 I'm sorry.
11 JUROR SHEA: I guess when I see it on
12 TV, I kind of assume that police had some reason

·.,
i 13 for arresting that person, that they must be
14 and don't mean, I guess, that I just assume
15 guilt, but they must have had a reason for it, so
16 I'm trusting that that's why they arrested them.
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. Would you
18 agree, though, there are times when people are
19 arrested and --
20 JUROR SHEA: Yeah, and it was --
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- was wrong?
22 JUROR SHEA: Yes.
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. One of the
24 instructions the Judge will give you eventually
25 within this trial, is that at the end when it's
72
1 your time to get together and decide guilt or
2 innocence, that you have to do it -- it's called
3 beyond a reasonable doubt, and that burden is
4 actually on the prosecutor only. That's where
5 yesterday we talked a lot about presumption of
6 innocence. Do you need us to prove something to

7 you? Well, it's the prosecutor that actually has
8 to prove each and every element of the offense.
9 Now, if, for instance, the State were
10 able to convince you, two out of three of the
11 elements absolutely perfect, evidence clearly
12 establishes that, but doesn't establish the
13 third, under that instruction you 1 d have to say,
14 not guilty. Does anyone feel that's just unfair
15 that if the State's able to truly convince you
16 with on two elements, but not on the third,
17 that, well, close enough. Do you think that
18 that's just not -- Ms. Rasmussen?
19 JUROR RASMUSSEN: Uh, if by elements are
20 you speaking two or three charges or two or three
21 elements of a specific charge?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Good question. As a
23 lawyer, we -- we tend to think everyone
24 understands what we're talking about. Each
25 charge -- The Judge will instruct you each charge
73
1 has separate elements to the charge. Um, and an
2 element just simply means it 1 s something that the
3 State would have to prove.
4 And my question is, essentially, if the
5 State convinces you beyond a reasonable doubt to
6 all but one element, are you willing to find the
7 defendant not guilty because the instruction is
B you must find him guilty on all the elements
9 beyond a reasonable doubt? Is that a fair burden
10 on the State? Even though they came pretty darn
11 close, you think that's pretty fair?
12 JUROR RASMUSSEN: I think that's fair.

.. ~
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. Any -- anyone
14 else -- anyone think it's not fair? It's just
15 not a fair burden on the prosecutor to come so
16 close, but not to be able to prove it in my
17 hypothetical? Not fair?
1·8 Okay. Mr. Fallon stole my thunder with
19 the JonBenet Ramsey case. That was a great
20 example. But let me ask you about -- follow up
21 on Mr. Fallon's questions about false
22 confessions.
23 He asked you about certain factors,
24 whether or not you thought that would play a part
25 in whether a person's, uh, confession was true or
74
1 false.
2 Let me ask you, does anyone feel that a
3 maturity level of a person is a factor that you
4 should consider in that same question? That same
5 set of questions Mr. Fallon asked? Mr., uh,
6 Johnson, you're rais -- you're shaking your --
7 I'm sorry. Mr. Williams. Sorry. You're shaking
8 your head?
9 JUROR WILLIAMS: Obviously, maturity has
10 something to do with it. I mean, I had a
11 six-year-old, and, you know, did you hit your
12 brother? You're going to get a different answer
' 13 if I asked her if she was 15 so ...
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Not necessarily.
15 Because I know.
16 JUROR WILLIAMS: Hopefully.
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. All right.
18 Anyone else, uh, agree? Ms., uh
19 JUROR LOWERY: Lowery.
20 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- Lowery.
21 JUROR LOWERY: Um, I kind of agree with
22 him, because my two-year-old, if you asked her
23 who did it, she always says, Jenaya, Jenaya,
24 Jenaya. And Jenaya is gone for eight hours out
25 of the d~y. And she's usually the only one at
75
1 home, so she 1 s the only one, that -- you know,
2 that could possibly do it. So, I mean, a
3 two-year-old versus, you know --
4 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Sure.
5 JUROR LOWERY: another age where you
6 can probably understand a little better and get a
7 correct answer.
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Jenaya is not that
9 naughty of a girl?
10 JUROR LOWERY: Oh, yeah. Jenaya is the
11 naughtiest.
12 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: She's a good fall

.. .
13 guy, huh?
14 JUROR LOWERY: Yeah.
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Anyone else agree
16 that that's -- Just generally agree?
17 JUROR: Sure.
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Another factor I
19 wanted to ask you if you agree might have an
20 impact on this topic of false confessions, and
21 that is, whether it's coming from authority.
22 Does anyone agree that parents or principals at
23 schools, police, might have more of an impact in
24 questioning a person than, say, if it's a friend?
25 All right. Ms. -- Ms. Tedder? Is that -- You
76
r 1 were shaking your head yes?
2 JUROR TEDDER: Yes.
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Do you agree that
4 that's -- that can also be a factor?
5 JUROR TEDDER: Yes. I think it can be
6 intimidating, so, yes.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: So intimidation can
8 sometimes be a factor in that?
9 JUROR TEDDER: Yes.
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Is that fairly
11 agreeable by the group? Everyone's shake I'm
12 not going to call on all of you, we'll be here
13 all day. But that that's a common theme among
14 Okay.
15 I just have one last question, and it's
16 a question I've asked just about every time since
17 a case I had seven years ago. I won't go into
18 that case. Does anyone here have any strong
19 dislike for attorneys that you just simply cannot
20 sit on a jury? It came up, and I just want to
21 make sure that -- Okay. Well, I appreciate your
22 answers. Thank you, very much.
23 THE COURT: All right. That -- that
24 concludes the individual voir dire -- or, excuse me,
25 the general voir dire done by the prosecutor and the
77
1 defense. We now are going to have what are called
2 peremptory challenges. That is the, uh -- the
3 lawyers are --
4 ATTORNEY FALLON: I -- I was just -- I
5 would like to take about a five-minute break.
6 THE COURT: All right. Okay. We'll
7 have the Well, let's do this, urn -- It's
8 10:05. Uh, 10:15?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON: That would be great.
11 (Recess had at 10:05 a.m.)
12 (Reconvened at 10:25 a.m.)

..•. ,
> 13 THE COURT: Back on the record. Ladies and
14 gentlemen, you're discovering how ten minutes of
15 court time rapidly turns into fifteen to twenty
16 minutes real time, but we're back, and we're going
17 to do the peremptory challenges at this point. Uh,
18 preemptory challenges are an opportunity for each
19 side to strike a certain number of jurors so that we
20 finally reach the final panel -- panel number,
21 which, in this case, is 16. So let's -- let us
22 begin.
23 (Peremptory Challenges.)
24 THE COURT: I'll ask the clerk to read the
25 names of those who have been selected for the final
78
1 jury. If your name is called, please stand.
2 THE CLERK: Thomas Oakes, Timothy Hughes,
3 Heather Rasmussen, Rachel Tedder, Leah Shea, Kristen
4 Durst, Thomas Heinzel, Becky Foss, Robert Covington,
5 Cynthia Edge, Renee Schmitt, Janeen Running, Judy
6 Orth, Jane McGuire, Tamara Lowery, and Ashley
7 Shippy.
8 THE COURT: All right. Would the persons
9 whose names weren't called rise, please, and -- and
10 we'll do the -- clear the courtroom.
11 (Wherein jurors not selected are
12 escorted out of the courtroom.)
13 I'm going to ask, uh, the jury clerk
14 to -- to seat the people so we can get a seating
15 chart. She's going to seat you in a -- in a
16 manner so we have a chart for Monday.
17 I'm just going to talk to you very, very
18 briefly. You're going to get some additional
19 instructions at the back of the room. You've
20 been selected this, a sequestered jury. You
21 won't officially become sequestered until Monday
22 morning when you're sworn in in the -- in the
23 Manitowoc County Courthouse, but I want to
24 reiterate to you that it is absolutely essential
25 that you not read, listen to, or watch any news
79
1 accounts of this case, whether on radio,
2 television, newspapers or the internet, and that
3 you do not discuss this with anyone, any matter
4 involving this case or your involvement in it.
5 That is, uh -- that is, actually, a court order.
6 I ask that you be diligent in following it.
7 Now, I'm going to ask that you exit the
8 jury box. Go to the back. One second.
9 THE CLERK: Would you wait one second? I
10 just want to make sure I have --
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Judge, before you
12 excuse them, could, uh, counsel and I, uh --
13 THE COURT: Sure.
14 ATTORNEY FALLON: remind you about a
15 previous discussion we had?
16 THE COURT: Oh.
17 {Discussion off the record.)
18 THE COURT: One more thing. Counsel have
19 suggested that I remind you that there may be
20 matters on television that your family sees and they
21 may want to talk to you about it. Uh, don 1 t --
22 don1 t engage in any of that discussion. Don•t watch
23 it. Don't talk to them. You might advise family
24 members if -- if there are matters that they run
25 into either on the internet or television that, uh,
80
1 it -- it's out of bounds for you and you can't talk
2 about it. Does everybody understand that
3 instruction? Thank you. All right. Uh, have you
4 got the -- the list?
5 THE CLERK: Yeah, that's fine.
7 THE CLERK: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: We'll see you Monday.
9 {Court stands adjourned at 10:50 a.m.)
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Bl
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15 Dated this f [# day of 1.0.t..utnku.A_.1 , 2007.
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82
1 STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUI T COURT MANITOWOC COUNTY
BRANCH 3
2
3
STATE OF WISCONSIN ,
4
PLAINTIFF , JURY TRIAL
5 TRIAL DAY 1
vs . Case No. 06 CF 88
6
BRENDAN R. DASSEY ,
7
DEFENDANT .
8
10 DATE: APRIL 16 , 2007
11 BEFORE: HON . JEROME L. FOX

Circuit Court Judge
12
APPEARANCES :
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
15
THOMAS J. FALLON
17
NORMAN A. GAHN
19
MARK R. FREMGEN
20 Attorney at Law
On behalf of the defendant .
21
RAYMOND L. EDELSTE I N
22 Attorney at Law
23
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
24 Defendant
Appeared in pe rson .
25
1
OPY
1 * * * * * * * *
2 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDI NGS
3 Repo rted by J ennifer K. Hau, RPR

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2
1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 PRELIMINARY JURY INSTRUCTIONS 5-20
4 OPENING STATEMENTS
5 BY ATTORNEY KRATZ 21-82
6 BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN 82 - 97
7 WITNESSES
8 KAREN HALBACH
9 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 102 -122
10 Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 122
11
KATIE HALBACH
12
13
14 THOMAS FASSBENDER
15 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 133-196
16 Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 196-2 23
17 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 223 - 224

19 1-10 120 122
20 11 132 132
21 12 132 132
22 13 132 161 & 162
23 14 132 132
24 15-77 196 196
25 78 192 196 196
3
2 THE COURT: Court will call the case of
3 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey, 06 CF 88.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ : The State appears by
6 Calumet County District Attorney Ken Kratz, also
7 appearing is Tom Fallon from the Department of
8 Justice, Norm Gahn from the Milwaukee County
9 D.A.'s Office, all appearing as special
10 prosecutors.
12 and Attorney Raymond Edelstein appear with
13 Brendan Dassey.
14 THE COURT : At this point I ' d ask the clerk
15 to swear the jury in, please.
16 THE CLERK: Would the jurors please rise?
17 Please raise your right hands.
18 (Jurors sworn.)
19 THE COURT : Counsel, I'm going to give some
20 preliminary instructions for the record. We have
21 previously discussed these and, uh , both sides agree
22 to the instructions to be given today; is that
23 correct , Mr. Kratz?
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Yes.
4
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge .
2 THE COORT : All right . Before the tr i al
3 begins, there are certain instructions you should
4 better have to understand your funct i ons as a j uror
5 and how you should conduct yourself during the
6 trial. Your duty is to decide t he case based onl y
7 on the evidence presented and the law g i ven to you
8 by the Court. Do not let any personal feel ings of
9 bias or prejudice against a ny such thi ng s as race ,
10 religion , national origin, sex or age af f ect your
11 deliberations.
12 Do not begin your deliberations and
13 discussion of the case unti l all the evidence is
14 presented and I have instructed you on . the law .
15 Do not discuss this case among yourselves or with
16 anyone else until your final delibera t ions in the
17 jury room.
18 We will stop or recess from time to time
19 during the trial . You may be excused from the
20 courtroom when it is necessary for me to he ar
21 legal arguments from the l awyers. If you c ome i n
22 contact with the parties, lawyers, or witnesses,
23 do not speak with them . For their part, the
24 parties, lawyers, and witnesses will not contact
25 or speak with the jurors .
5
1 Should you be exposed to any reports or
2 communications from any source concerning the
3 case dur ing the trial, you should report that
4 informati on t o the jury bailiff . The Court is
5 aware that many of you've been exposed to
6 publici ty concerning thi s case before you were

7 selected to serve as a juror . Each of you has
8 committed to ba se your verdict only on t he
9 evidence introduced during the t r ial . It i s of
10 v ital importance to t he parties and the sanctity
11 of the court process that you remain true to this
12 commitment .
13 Anyth ing you may see or hear outside the
14 courtroom is not evidence . You are to d ecide the
15 case solely on the evidence offered and r eceived
16 at trial .
17 Evidence i s, first , the sworn test i mony

18 of wi tnesses, both on direct and
19 cross-examination, regardless of who called the
20 witness.
21 Second, t he exhibits t he Court has
22 received .
23 And , th ird, any facts t o wh ich the

24 lawyers have agreed, or stipulated, or which the
25 Court has directed you to fi nd .
6
1 Attorneys for each site -- side have the
2 right and the duty to object to what they
3 consider are improper questions asked of
4 witnesses and to the admission of other evidence
5 which they believe is not properly admissible .
6 You should not draw any conclusions from
7 the fact that an objection was made. By allowing
8 testimony or other evidence to be received over
9 the objection of counsel , the Court is not
10 indicating any opinion about the evidence . You
11 jurors are the judges of the credibility of the
12 witnesses and the weight of the evidence .
13 You are not required to, but you may
14 take notes during the trial except during the
15 opening statements and closing arguments. The
16 Court will provide you with materials. In taking
17 notes, you must be careful that it does not
18 distract you from carefully listening to and
19 observing the witnesses.
20 You may rely on your notes to refresh
21 your memory during deliberations. Otherwise,
22 keep them confidential. Your notes will be
23 collected by the jury bailiff after each day's
24 session and kept in a secure place until the next
25 day of trial . After the trial , the notes wi ll be
7
1 collected and destroyed.
2 You wi ll not have a copy of the written
3 transcript of the trial testimony available for
4 us e during your deliberations. You may ask to
5 have specific portions of the testimony read to
6 you. You should pay careful attention to all the
7 testimony, because you must re ly primarily on
8 your memory of the evidence and testimony
9 introduced during the trial.
10 To assist you in evaluating the
11 evidence , I will now read to you portions of t he
12 specific jury instructions for the offenses with
13 which the defendant is charged. I wil l read them
14 to you in their entirety at the close of the
15 eviden ce .
16 Count 1. Count 1 of the Information
17 charges the defendant with first degree
18 intentional homicide, as party to a crime to
19 the crime. Section 939.05 of the Wisconsin
20 Criminal Code provide that whoever's concerned in
21 the commission of a crime is a p arty to t hat
22 crime and may be convicted of that crime a l though
23 that person did not directly commit it.
24 The State contends that the defendant
25 wa s concerned in the commission of the crime of
8
1 first degree intentional homicide by either
2 directly committing it or by intentionally aiding
3 and abetting the person who directly committed
4 it.
5 If a person intentionally aids and abets
6 the commission of a crime, then tha t person is

7 guilty of the crime as well as the person who
8 directly committed it . A person intentionally
9 aids and abets the commission of a crime when
10 acting with knowledge or belief that another
11 person is committing or intends to commit a
12 crime, he knowingly either assists t he person who
13 commits the crime, or is ready and will ing to
14 assist , and the person who commits the crime
15 knows of the willingness to assist.
16 To intentionally aid and abet the crime
17 of first degree intentional homicide, the
18 defendant must know that anothe r pe rson is
19 committing or intends to commit the crime of
20 first degree intentional homicide and have the
21 person -- and have t he purpose to assist the
22 commission of that crime .
23 Before you may fi nd the defendant guilty
24 of first degree intentional homicide as a party
25 to the crime, the State must prove by evidence
9
1 which satisfies you beyond a reasonable doubt
2 that the defendant directly committed the crime
3 of first degree intentional homicide or
4 intentionally aided and abetted the commission of
5 that crime .
6 All 12 jurors do not have to agree on
7 whether the defendant directly committed the
8 crime of first degree intentional homi cide or
9 aided and abetted the commission of the crime .
10 However, each juror must be convinced beyond a
11 reasonable doubt that the defendant was concerned
12 in the commission of the crime in one of those
13 ways.
14 First degree intentional homicide, as
15 defined in 940.01 of the Criminal Code of
16 Wisconsin, is committed by one who causes the
17 death of another human being with the -- the
18 intent to kill that person or another .
19 Before you may find the person - - the
20 defendant guilty of first degree intentional
21 homicide, the State must prove by evidence which
22 satisfies you beyond a reasonable doubt that the
23 following two elements were present:
24 Number one, Brendan Dassey caused the --
25 the death of Teresa Halbach, or aided and abetted
10
1 another in causing the direct -- the death of
2 Teresa Halbach .
3 " Cau se " means that the defendant's acts
4 were a substantial factor in producing the death .
5 Number two, Brendan Dassey acted with
6 the intent to kill Teresa Halbach , whether he did
7 so directly or aided and abetted another.
8 " Intent to kill" means that the
9 defendant had the mental p urpose to take t he life
10 of another human being , or was aware that his
11 conduct was practic -- practically certain to
12 cause the death o f another human being .
13 Wh ile the law requires that the
14 defendant acted with intent to kill , it does not
15 require that intent exists for any particular
16 length of time before the act is committed . The
17 act need not be brooded over , considered , or
18 reflected upon for a week, a day, an hour , or
19 even a minute . There need not be any appreciable
20 time between the formation of the intent and the
21 act .
22 The intent to ki ll may be formed at
23 a nytime before t he act, includi ng the instant
24 before the act , and must continue to exist at the
25 time of the act .
11
1 You cannot look into a person's mind to
2 find intent. Intent to kill must be found , if
3 found at all, from the defendant's acts, words

4 and statements, if any, and from all the facts
5 and circumstances in this case bearing upon
6 intent. Intent should not be confused with

7 motive. While proof of intent is necessary to a
8 conviction, proof of mot i ve is not.
9 Motive refers to a person's reason for
10 doing something. While motive may be shown as a
11 circumstance to aid in establishing the guilt of

12 a defendant, the State is not required to prove
13 motive on the part of the defendant in order to
14 convict.
15 Evidence of motive does not , by itself,
16 establish guilt. You should give it the weight

17 you believe it deserves under all of the
18 circumstances.
19 You're satisfied beyond a reasonable
20 doubt at the conclusion of the trial that the

21 defendant directly committed both elements of
22 first degree intentional homicide, or that the
23 defendant intentionally aided and abetted the
24 commission of that crime, you should find the
25 defendant guilty. If you are not so satisfied,
12
1 you must find the defendant not guil t y .
2 Count 2 charges the defendant with
3 muti l ating a corpse , a l so as a party to a
4 crime -- to the crime . Section 939 . 05 of the
5 Criminal Code of Wisconsin, provide that whoever
6 is concerned in the commission of a crime is a
7 party to that crime and may be convicted of that
8 crime although tha t person did not directly
9 commit it.
11 was concerned in the commission of the crime of
12 mutilating a corpse by either directly committing
13 it or by intentionally aiding and abetting the
14 person who directly committed i t.
15 If a person intentionally aids and abets
16 the commission of a crime, then that person is
17 guilty of the crime as well as the person who
18 directly committed it . Person intentionally aids
19 and abet the com -- abets the commission of a
20 crime when acting with knowledge or belief t hat
21 another person is committing or intends to commit
22 a c r ime, he either knowingly assists the person
23 who commits the crime , or is ready and willing t o
24 assist , and the person who commits the crime
25 knows of the willingness to assist.
13
1 To intentionally aid and abet the crime
2 of mutilating a corpse , the defendant must know
3 that another person is committing or intends to

4 commit the crime of mutilating a corpse and have
5 the purpose to assist the commission of that
6 crime .
7 Before you may find the defendant guilty
8 of mutilating a corpse as a party to the crime,
9 the State must prove by evidence which satisfies
10 you beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant
11 directly committed the crime of mutilating a
12 corpse or intentionally aided and abetted the
13 commission of that crime .
14 All 12 jurors do not have to agree
16 crime of first degree, uh -- or uh, mutilating a
17 corpse or aided and abetted the commission of the
18 crime . However, each juror must be convinced
19 beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was
20 concerned in the commission of the crime in one

21 of those ways.
22 Mutilating a corpse , as defined in
23 Section 940 .1 1 (1) of the Criminal Code of

24 Wisconsin, is violated by one who mutilates a
25 corpse with intent to conceal a crime , or avoid
14
1 apprehension, prosecution , or conviction for a
2 crime.
3 Before you may fi nd the defendant guilty
4 of this offense , the State must prove by evi dence
6 that the following two elements were present:
7 Number one , Brendan Dassey mutilated t he
8 corpse of Teresa Halbach, or aided and abetted
9 another in muti l ating the corpse of Teresa
10 Halbach.
11 Number two, in mutilating the corpse of
12 Teresa Halbach , or in aiding and abetting another
13 i n mutilating her corpse, Brendan Dassey acted
14 with the intent to conceal the crime. This
15 requires that the defendant acted with the
16 purpose to conceal a crime.
17 You cannot look into a pers on's mi nd to
18 find out about int ent . Intent must be found , if

19 found at all, from t he defendant's acts , words
20 and statements , if a ny, and from all the facts
21 and circumstances in the case bea ring upon
22 intent.
23 If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable
24 doubt at the conclusion of the trial that Brendan
25 Dassey directly committed both elements of this
15
1 offense, or that Brendan Dassey directly aided
2 and another -- aided and abetted another in the
3 commission of the crime, you should fi nd the

4 defendant guilty. If you are not so satisfied,
5 you must find the defendant not guilty.
6 Count 3 charges the defendant with first

7 degree sexual assault by use or threat of a
8 dangerous weapon, also as a party to a crime.
9 Section 939.05 of the Criminal Code of Wisconsin
10 provides that whoever is concerned in the
11 commission of a crime is a party to that crime
12 and may be convicted of that crime although the
13 person did not directly commit it.

15 was concerned in t he commission of the crime of
16 first degree sexual assault by either directly
17 committing it or by intentionally aiding and
18 ab -- and abetti ng the person who directly
19 committed it. The person intentionally aids and
20 abets the commission of a crime, then that person

21 is guilty of a crime as well as the person who
22 directly committed it.
23 Person intentiona lly aids and abets the

24 commission of a crime when acting with knowledge
25 and belief that another person is committi ng or
16
1 intends to commi t a crime , he knowing ly either
2 assists t he person who commits t he crime or is
3 ready and wi ll ing to assist, and the person who

4 commits the crime knows of the willi ngness to
5 as -- to assist .
6 To intent iona lly aid and abet the crime

7 of firs t degree sexual assau l t, the defendant
8 must know that anot her person is commi tting or
9 intends t o commit the crime of f irst degree
10 sexual assault and have t he pers have the
11 purpose to assist the commission of t hat crime .

12 Before you may find the defendant guilty
13 of first degree sexual assaul t as a pa r ty to a

14 crime , t he Stat e must p rove by evidence which
15 satisfies you beyond a reasonable doubt that the
16 de fendant dire ctly committed the crime of firs t
17 degree sexual assaul t or i nt ent i onal ly aided and
18 abetted the commission of that crime .
19 All 12 jurors do not have to agree

21 crime of first degree sexual assault or aided
22 and - - and abetted t he commission of that crime .
23 However , each juror must con -- be convinced
24 beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was
25 concerned in t he commission of t he crime i n one
17
1 of those ways.
2 First degree sexual assault, as defined
3 in Section 940 . 225 (1) (b) of the Criminal Code of

4 Wisconsin, is committed by one who has sexual
5 intercourse with another person without consent
6 and by use or threat of a dangerous weapon .

7 Before you find the defendant guilty of
8 this offense, the State must prove by evidence
10 that the following three elements were present:

11 Number one, the defendant had sexual
12 intercour -- course with Teresa Halbach .
13 Number two, Teresa Halbach did not

14 consent to the sexual intercourse .
15 Number three, the defendant had sexual
16 intercourse with Teresa Halbach by use or threat
17 of a dangerous weapon. This requires that the
18 defendant actually used or threatened to use the

19 dangerous weapon to compel Teresa Halbach to
20 submit to sexual intercourse.

21 If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable
22 doubt that all three elements of first degree
23 sexual assault have been proven, you should find

24 the defendant guilty . If you are not so
25 satisfied, you must find the defendant not
18
1 guilty .
2 In r eaching your verdict , examine the
3 evidence wit h care and caution. Act with
4 judgment, reason and prudence.
5 Defendants are not required to prove
6 their innocence. The law presumes every person
7 charged with the commission of an offense to be
8 innocent. This presumption requires a finding of
9 not guilty unless in your deliberations you find
10 it is overcome by evidence which satisfies you
11 beyond a reasonable doubt t hat the defendant is
12 guilty .
13 The burden of establishing every fact
14 necessary to constitute guilt is upon the State.
15 Before you can return a verdict of guilty, t he
16 evidence was -- must satisfy the -- you beyond a
17 reasonable doubt that the defendant is guil ty .
18 If you can reconcile the evidence upon
19 any reasonable hypothesis consistent with the
20 defendant's innocence, you should do so and
21 return a verdict of not guilty.
22 The term "reasonable doubt " means a
23 doubt based upon reason and common sense. It is
24 a doubt for which a person can be given uh,
25 for whi ch a reason can be given arising from a
19
1 fair and rational consideration of the evidence
2 or lack of evidence. It means such a doubt as
3 would cause a person of ordinary prudence to
4 pause or hesitate when called upon to act in the
5 most important affairs of life .
6 A reasonable doubt is not a doubt which
7 is based on mere guesswork or speculation. A
8 doubt which arises merely from sympathy or from
9 fear to return a verdict of guilt is not a
10 reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt is not a
11 doubt such as may be used to escape the
12 responsibility of a decision.
13 While it is your duty to give the
14 defendant the benefit of every reasonable doubt,
15 you are not to search for doubt, you are to
16 search for the truth .
17 The lawyers will now make opening
18 statements. The purpose of an opening statement
19 is to give the lawyers an opportunity to tell you
20 what they expect the evidence will show so that
21 you can better understand the evidence as it is
22 introduced during the trial. I must caution you,
23 however, that the opening statements are not

24 evidence. Mr. Kratz? Juror Covington, were you
25 able to hear me when I gave these instructions?
20
1 JUROR COVINGTON: Yes .
2 THE COURT: All right. Let ' s proceed.
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Can everybody hear me
4 okay? As our tech guy comes up here, I wanted to
5 say good morning. Thank you for the service that
6 you have offered in this case. Uh, you are from
7 Dane County. You ' re not a Manitowoc County jury,
8 and so it's a great i nconvenience, I know, for
9 all of you to sit and listen to this very
10 important case. But let me assure you that t his
11 process, the process that you've been going to in
12 the next couple of weeks , um , may include one of
13 the most important decisions, uh , that you're
14 ever going to have to make .
15 Uh , it is a , uh - - a daunting task for
16 citizens to go through , uh, but it is , uh ,
17 obviously important not just to Mr. Dassey, but
18 to the , uh , Halbach family, to the friends of the
19 family , uh, of Teresa Halbach, to the citizens of
20 Manitowoc County, uh , where we c urrently , uh, are
21 holding this trial.
22 Uh , the trial , i t self , or my opening
23 statement , itself , uh , is not intended to be
24 evidence . The Judge already told you that. Um,
25 but it will be a little bit l e ngthy , uh , in that
21
1 we have to take what, uh, may be six or seven
2 weeks of testimony into a trial , uh , and at least
3 in this case fit it into about three days, uh ,
4 worth of testimony . And much of the evidence in
5 this case is not contested, uh, will be
6 stipulated to , meaning agreed to, uh, and so you,

7 the jurors, since you don't have the same basis
8 of knowledge that the lawyers do, uh, you have to
9 be told the background and a lot of those facts ,
10 and so I ' ll be doing that in my opening statement
11 as well as having some witnesses testify, uh,
12 about that, uh -- about that as well.
13 Uh , you will notice around the courtroom
14 are, um, screens, uh, which, um, do , in most
15 regards, um , have the, uh, text or photos or the
16 videotapes that you'll be watching. Uh, they are
17 meant to assist you and give you different places
18 to, uh -- to see those things, and so I wanted to
19 encourage you to do that as well.
20 Let me also remind you that this is not,
21 um, a closed system in that you can't, uh,
22 participate. Uh, the one way that you can
23 participate, uh, is if one of you needs a break

24 for some reason . Uh, I need to let you know that
25 if you need a break, uh, either , if you're , um ,
22
1 not concentrating well enough, or you just need
2 a -- a regular, uh , kind of other kind of break,
3 just raise your hand, all right? Get my
4 attention or the Judge's attention, and we'll
5 take a break.
6 And , certainly, during this opening

7 statement, you'll get at least one, and perhaps
8 two, breaks, uh, so that you're able to remain
9 fresh , you're able to , um , listen to the very
10 important statements that myself and the defense
11 will be giving in this opening statement. All
12 right?
13 First thing I want to talk about is an
14 introduction of the prosecution team . That is ,
15 the people that are sitting at or near this
16 table . My name's Ken Kratz . It's the first
17 chance I've had to address each of you . Uh, I am
18 a district attorney . I'm the D. A. of Calumet
19 County, which is the county just east, uh, of
20 Manitowoc , of, uh -- excuse me, just west of
21 Manitowoc , uh, where we are, uh, right now.
22 Uh, and I am the lead counsel . Nothing
23 special about that term . It just means that, uh,
24 I have, uh, coordinated the, uh, investigation
25 and prosecution of this case, uh, and will be
23
1 assisting in the presentation of the case as
2 well.
3 Um, Mr . Fallon , who you already heard
4 from , is an assistant, uh , di strict attorney.
5 Um, Mr. Fallon , uh , works for the Department of
6 Justice in Madison . Uh , he ' s the gentleman in
7 the middle , and , uh, will be another prosecutor
8 in this case .
9 And , finally , Mr . Gahn is a Milwaukee
10 County Assistant District Attorney . Oh , Mr. Gahn
11 will be presenting the parts of the case , you'll
12 notice, where Mr . Gahn has expertise . Uh , that
13 is in DNA evidence , uh , and in the sciences and
14 some of the other places . So I at least wanted
15 to let you know why we ' re involved.
16 We , by the way , are helping , we ' re doing
17 a favor , if you will, for Manitowoc County. Uh,
18 the three prosecutors that have been assigned
19 responsibility for this , uh, important case and
20 the case involving Steven Avery , uh , which were
21 the same prosecutors , the same prosecution team,
22 uh, assisted Man itowoc in, um - - in the efforts
23 of the prosecution .
24 Two lead investigators were involved in
25 this case . Uh, they are, um , Mr. Mark Wiegert,
24
1 who is the gentleman in the glasses. Mr . Wiegert
2 is an investigator with the Calumet County
3 Sheriff's Department. And Mr. Tom Fassbender,
4 who is seated next to him, works, again, for the
5 Department of Justice, Division of Criminal
6 Investigation.
7 You're going to learn in this case that
8 several hundred law enforcement officers were
9 involved . Um, that the personnel and the search
10 efforts in this case were, uh, overwhelming. In
11 fact, you ' re probably going to learn that this
12 was one of the largest , if not, the larges t , at
13 least by resources, investigation, criminal
14 investigation, homicide investigation in
15 Wiscons i n history. And because of the scope of
16 this case , because of the size of this case, it
17 required investigators to coordinate or to make
18 sure that everything was done, uh, not only
19 properly, but leadership, uh, and direction was,
20 uh -- was certainly required in this case .
21 If I could have, uh, just a minute .
22 We're going to try to fix at least these two
23 screens so that all of the, uh, text shows, but

24 that doesn't mean I 'm going to stop. I 'm a
25 lawyer so I can -- I can just keep , uh -- keep
25
1 talking.
2 Opening statements, as the Judge told
3 you, are an opportunity to tell you what we think

4 the evidence is going to show . But more than
5 that , it's a, uh -- i t's a roadmap. It's an
6 overview. Since evidence comes in in b i ts and

7 pieces, some people describe, uh , trials as, um,
8 puzzles , jigsaw puzzles, if you will , and how
9 evidence may fit into there.

10 You need to know how each little piece
11 of evidence in this two-week trial is going to
12 fit into the big picture. Is going to fit into
13 whether or not Brendan Dassey is guilty of the
14 three offenses for , uh, which he has been
15 charged.
16 Uh, I've told you, and you know, and

17 most of you, in fact, I think all of you, uh,
18 have indicated in your questionnaires that you
19 were at least somewhat familiar with the Steven
20 Avery, uh, case. But you didn't hear the
21 evidence in that case. Urn, and some of that

22 evidence, as I mentioned, may or may not be
23 contested, but because of the importance of this

24 case, it's still necessary to tell you the whole
25 story. It's necessary to explain all of the
26
1 physical evidence , as well as the evidence tha t
2 may be directed towards , uh, Brendan Dassey, and
3 some of that evidence, again, will be physical
4 evidence and some is going to be statements. Uh,
5 and so we intend, uh, to tell you about all of
6 that, certainly, during this opening statement
7 and, uh -- and during this process.
8 The Judge told you that Mr. Dassey's
9 been charged with three separate offenses; first
10 degree intentional homicide, mutilating a corpse
11 and first degree sexual assault . He told you the
12 elements. That is, what it is the State has to
13 prove. And we certainly intend to do that.
14 All right. The first legal concept that
15 I want to talk about is party to the crime . The
16 Judge has instructed you that party to the crime
17 is a, uh -- a concept, a -- a form of criminal
18 liability, that, uh, is committed either when
19 somebody commits a crime, themselves, or when
20 they aid and abet the commission of the crime .
21 Now, this is the law. Judge Fox wi ll
22 tell you what the law is. So whether you thi nk
23 this is a good idea or a bad idea, it's the law
24 and you have to follow this law. And so the
25 description or the explanation of, as an example ,
27
1 what aiding and abetting means , is important for
2 you to know .
3 The Judge has told you that a defendant
4 can aid and abet the commission o f crime , um , if
5 he assists somebody who corrunits it or ,
6 importantly, and what you might hear in this

7 case , as t he evidence may show in this case , u h,
8 quite a bit , is that the individual , i n this
9 case , Brendan Dassey , stood ready and willing to
10 assist , and that the actor, in this case , Steven
11 Avery, uh , was an individual who knew of
12 Brendan ' s willingness to aid and abet . Al l
13 right?
14 Now, I ' m telling you that this e arly in
15 the case because this is an important concept.
16 It ' s important for you to understand what the
17 criminal liability i s , and, again , whether you
18 agree with or don ' t agree with that concept , with
19 the concept of party to the crime , it ' s something
20 the Judge tells you you have to accept and you

21 have to a dopt .
22 I ' m going to introduce you to a lovely
23 young woman . This is Teresa Halbach. Ms .
24 Halbach was 25 years old on Halloween of 2005 .
25 You ' re going to hear evidence in this case that
28
1 Ms. Halbach was single . That Ms. Halbach was a
2 college graduate. Ms. Halbach was a freelance
3 photographer. She was a daughter. She was a
4 sister. She was a friend. And she had her whole
5 life ahead of her.
6 You're also going to hear evidence that
7 all of that came to an end on Halloween of 2005.
8 This story, this case, beg ins at about 8:12 a.m.
9 on Halloween Day of 2005 when the plan was set
10 into motion to take this young woman's life. The
11 plan was set into motion to rape , and to kill ,
12 and to mutilate this 25-year-old innocen t , young
13 woman.
14 The investigation of this case begins
15 when we learn that Ms. Halbach was reported
16 missing on Thursday, the 3rd of November, 2005 .
17 She was a photographer. One of her contracts,
18 one of the reasons, uh, that she was a
19 photographer was she worked for a magazine. She
20 worked for something called AutoTrader Magazine,
21 which was a magazine that sells cars. It -- it ,
22 uh, put ads in the cars, and it requires
23 photographers to go around and take pictures, uh,
24 of those cars .
25 Uh, and so learning about Ms. Halbach,
29
1 or learning how she worked for AutoTrader
2 Magazine, is important for you to understand
3 about the investigation, because you will learn
4 that the investigation, or at least the missing
5 persons investigation , determined that t he last
6 place that Ms . Halbach was on the 31st was a
7 place called the Avery Salvage Yard.
8 Uh, this is a place located here in
9 Manitowoc in a place called the town of Gibson .
10 It ' s rural Manitowoc. It ' s kind of the northern
11 edge, uh, of Manitowoc, uh , but it ' s a -- a
12 junkyard, a -- a salvage business that has junked
13 cars. Uh, and the, uh, other determination early
14 on in this case was that a man by the name of
15 Steven Avery made an appointment at 8:12 that
16 morning to have Ms. Halbach come to that
17 residence, or to come to tha t property, which was
18 the Avery salvage property.
19 I ' ve alluded a little bit earlier about
20 the case against Steven Avery, and you first need
21 to know about the case against Steven Avery, t h e
22 investigation, uh, that pointed towards Steven
23 Avery being involved in this case.
24 You may already know, and many of your
25 jury questionnaires told us that you knew , at
30
1 least some things about this man, about Steven
2 Avery, that he had achieved some degree of
3 notoriety in 2003 when he was exonerated , when he
4 was released from prison for a 1985 sexual
5 assault.
6 You may know that Mr. Avery, or you'l l
7 hear in this case , that Mr. Avery was exonerated
8 or set free because of something called DNA
9 evidence. Because there was some DNA evidence
10 from the ' 85 case that didn't match, uh, in that
11 case, and that an analyst from the State Crime
12 Lab, one particular analyst, found DNA on one
13 piece of evidence, on a hair that was collected
14 from the 1985 case , that didn 't match. That
15 didn ' t match Steven Avery. And so Mr. Avery was
16 released. He was released from prison.
17 Ironically, you will hear, that that ,
18 um, analyst from the Crime Lab, the DNA, um,
19 specialist who exonerated Steven Avery , was a
20 woman named Sherry Culhane . You're going to hear
21 her name later on in this case, because Ms.
22 Culhane, as evidence is developed in this case,
23 happens to be the very same analyst that does the

24 DNA, um, workup. That does all of the testing of
25 the DNA case.
31
1 All right . I ' m going to -- Because the
2 side screens are not quite as large , the bottom ' s
3 cut off or the top is cut off, you're going to
4 have to look behind me at least until we take our
5 break when we fix , uh , these side screens.
6 But this is the very first time, and the
7 very first important photo that I want you all to
8 look at. This is the Avery sa lvage property.
9 The Avery Salvage Yard . It consists of about 40
10 acres of junked cars . It consists of four
11 different residences . Four trailers on this
12 peep - - piece of property.
13 The Steven Avery tra iler , wh ich is
14 located in the bottom left-hand corner of the
15 screen , or which would be the northwest corner of
16 the property. Right next to Mr. Avery ' s trailer
17 is his sister's, uh, property . Her name at that
18 time was Barb Janda. Also living with Barb at
19 the time were her sons , four sons , all with the
20 name of Dassey . Uh , they included, uh , the
21 defendant, Brendan Dassey , uh , his brothers , uh ,
22 Blaine and Bobby and Bryan. They all lived on
23 that property as well.
24 Another trailer that ' s located on this
25 property was the Allen and Delores Avery trailer.
32
1 These were the grandparents of Brendan, or the
2 mom and dad, if you will, of, uh, Steven and , uh ,
3 his sister, Barb.
4 And also on the property was the -- his
5 brother, Chuck's, trailer. So there's four
6 residences . You can see of the buildings that
7 are on this massive, um , um, property for them
8 are businesses. You'll also notice on these, um,
9 aeria l photographs that there's lots of
10 buildings. There's outbuilding, there ' s business
11 buildings, there's, uh, a lot of sheds and those
12 kind of things that, uh, you need to be familiar
13 with as you hear about some of the searches and
14 where some of the evidence, uh, is -- is found.
15 All right?
16 Well, the investigation takes a dramatic
17 turn on the morning of, uh, Saturday, November 5,
18 when, uh, two citizen searchers, uh, uh, Nikole
19 and Pam Sturm, uh, when given permission to
20 search the Avery salvage property, these 40
21 acres, uh, happened to find the picture that
22 you've seen here. They happened to find Teresa
23 Halbach's SUV.
24 Uh, you'll notice, uh, Teresa Halbach's
25 SUV is covered . It is concealed. Uh, there 'll
33
1 be testimony that it was intentionally concealed ,
2 uh, with branches of debris and this very large ,
3 um, hood for a vehicle. A -- a -- a large, uh,
4 either car or truck hood is -- is leaned up
5 against it.
6 Suffice it to say, though , that at 10:30
7 in the morning on the 5th of November , this case
8 takes a very dramatic t urn. You'll hear that the
9 VIN number, that is the Vehicle Identification
10 Number, when they ' re looking for Teresa , whe n the
11 citizens are searching for Teresa, actually
12 matches, uh, and so they know at that time that
13 the, uh, vehicle is, in fact, the vehicle in
14 question.
15 Importantly, you'll hear evidence about
16 where the vehicle was found. Ms. Halbach ' s
17 vehicle was found in the opposite corner of both
18 the Avery and Dassey, uh, trailer. Uh, and,
19 again, it's behind kind of a pond, but it's
20 immediately adjacent to or close to a car
21 crusher.
22 Uh, that , uh, car crusher is equipment,
23 you will hear in this case, evidence will show,
24 uh, is the kind of equipment designed to crush
25 cars. It kind of makes sense. It ' s -- it ' s
34
1 called a -- a car crusher. But to make vehicles ,
2 um, very , very small , almost unidentifiable, and
3 easily removed, uh, from the property. And

4 you ' ll see why, and you'll hear why, uh , Teresa
5 Halbach ' s vehicle is placed, uh , in that
6 location. That is, that proximity to the car

7 crusher.
8 You'll also hear l a ter on that night,
9 after search warrants are obtained -- You'll hear
10 what search warrants are . Search warrants are
11 judicial authorization . Uh , that is , a judge
12 tells law enforcement that you can go ahead and
13 search a property for , um, evidence of a crime.
14 Uh , and after those search warrants were
15 obtained, you ' re going to hear that first evening
16 that , uh , some K-9 units, what are called cadaver
17 dogs, at least insentence -- insensitively called
18 cadaver dogs, uh , dogs that are trained to find
19 and detect human remains , um, they , in fact , uh ,
20 hit on , uh , the , um, vehicle of, uh , uh, Teresa
21 Halbach, uh , alerting , indicating that there was
22 either a deceased individual in the back of that
23 car , or tha t there 's human blood, uh, in the back

24 of the car .
25 You ' re going to hear evidence that this
35
1 vehicle was loaded onto an enclosed trailer. It
2 wasn't processed there at the scene . It was
3 actually driven to Madison, to the Madison Crime

4 Lab, for processing at that time . All right?
5 Now , let me just tell you, again, this
6 is a lot of information . This is , uh, days and

7 days and days worth of, uh , testimony that,
8 again , we're going to try to , uh, kind of fit
9 into a short period of time because, uh, it ' s
10 important to get to the crux of this case, uh,

11 what we'll be able to show a little bit later .
12 But on Saturday, residences and places
13 are starting to be searched. All right? The
14 first place, or at least one of the first places
15 to be searched , is the trailer of, uh , Steven
16 Avery.
17 You'll hear from Agent Fassbender , and
18 others that are involved in this search effort,
19 that they want to find Teresa. Their first
20 efforts -- And early on in this case, uh , even

21 though they found her vehicle , Teresa hasn't been
22 found yet . And so they're desperately looking
23 for Teresa Halbach, hopefully, alive . They're
24 hoping to find her on this prope rt y alive .
25 And so you ' re going to hear of the law
36
1 enforcement effort to search all of these
2 residences, again, which include the trailer,
3 which include the garage of Steven Avery, and
4 other residences , including Brendan Dassey's , uh ,
5 home, uh , business, uh , properties , uh , on the
6 property, uh, and also other , um, vehicles . In

7 fact, all of the junked cars. Uh , you ' ll see
8 photos of 4 , 000 junked cars .
9 I hope at the end of this case you ' ll be
10 able to appreciate just how many cars that is to
11 search , each and every one of those cars, on at
12 least two or three different occasions, by not
13 only law enforcement , but volunteer firefighters
14 and other, uh , citizen searchers . All right?
15 Um , also , on , uh , the next day, that is
16 on the 6th, that Sunday , the 6th of November,
17 you ' re going to hear that every one of those
18 junked cars is opened, is searched . Again ,
19 they're looking for Teresa Halbach ' s body.
20 You ' re going to hear that a rifle , one
21 of the two rifles that was in Steven Avery ' s
22 residence was seized that Sunday . Uh, this rifle
23 is a .22 caliber Marlin Glenfield semi-automatic ,

24 uh , rifle. You'll hear about the significance of
25 this rifle, but you ' ll hear that it was actually
37
1 hanging on the wall at least when officers
2 found it -- hanging on a gun rack right on the
3 wal l in the bedroom of Steven Avery.

4 You're going to hear about , uh , a phone
5 message, uh, that was, uh, recovered. Uh , this
6 phone message was recovered from Brendan
7 Dassey's, uh, home . Uh, you're going to hear in
8 this case - - and I know that I 've advanced a
9 little bit quickly for you, but when Steven Avery
10 made the appointment to lure Teresa Halbach to
11 the property, evidence will show that he used the

12 name, B. Janda. His sister ' s name is Barb Janda.
13 So using his sister's name, using his

14 sister's phone number , or the call back number ,
15 uh, you ' re going to hear , uh , this or expect
16 you ' ll hear this, uh , tape , this , um, uh , voice

17 recording of Teresa , indicating that she got the
18 message , uh, that , uh, the t ime that , uh, she
19 would be able to come and t ake photographs of a
20 van that was for sale was sometime after 2 :00,

21 uh, on that day . But , again , it was recovered
22 and you 'll be able too hear, um, that evidence .
23 On Monday, uh, the 7th, the Crime Lab --

24 uh, and , again , it ' s a little bit better if you
25 look at -- at this -- um , they make a startling
38
1 discovery . Remember the SUV o f Tere sa was taken
2 to the , um -- the Crime Lab for processing? They
3 found ma l e blood in s ix different locations in
4 the SUV and they found a great deal of female
5 blood i n the back , or what's called t he ca r go
6 area , of Teresa's, uh, SUV . These were the f irs t
7 results, uh, they had gotten . They didn ' t get
8 any D re DNA results back yet, but they coul d
9 tell it was male blood, and they could tell t hat
10 it was both , uh , female blood .
11 You ' ll hear from investigators , from
12 Mr . Fassbender, and even from some of the Crime
13 Lab people, t h at when you find ma le blood and you
14 find t hat amount of female blood , uh, in the bac k
15 or in the cargo area of an SUV , it became very
16 obvious on Monday, the 7th, just a coupl e of days
17 into this investigation, that something terrible
18 had happened . That a crime had happened.
19 Criminal behavior, uh , was afoot , and that, uh,
20 the search then began for what person or persons
21 were involved in committing these crimes .
22 Also, on Monday, you' re g oing to hear
23 about a b urn barre l t h at was recovered from just
24 outside of Steven Avery ' s , uh , residence . Uh,
25 the Steven Avery and the Brendan Dassey, u h ,
39
1 residences , again, are next to each other, kind
2 of between them, closer to Mr. Avery's house, is
3 an Avery, um, burn barrel.
4 Uh, t his is another photograph to kind
5 of give you a -- an idea of how close not only
6 the burn barrel is t o the Steven Avery trailer ,
7 but also, and more importantly, how c lose this
8 burn barrel is to the van. This is the maroon
9 van that Teresa Hal bach, t he evidence wil l show,
10 was asked to come and take pictures of on
11 Halloween Day on 2005 , and so you ' ll hear about,
12 uh - - about all of t hose things.
13 The next day, Tuesday, uh, the 8th ,
14 you're going to hear that a thorough search was,
15 um, performed of Steven Avery's trailer . Uh , and
16 found in Steven Avery's bedroom was a key. This
17 was a Toyota key. You will hear evidence that
18 later this Toyota key matches the key of Teresa
19 Halbach 's SUV. It starts the ignition. It
20 turns, uh, um, the ignition .
21 The second important fi ndi ng on the 8th
22 was Teresa's license plates. These are found in
23 a junked vehicle, uh, kind of on the path on the
24 way to Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey ' s , uh ,
25 residence.
40
1 And the third, and most chilling,
2 discovery, uh, on the 8th, the evidence will
3 show, is , uh, this burn area .
4 Now, to give you an idea or an overview,
5 again , of this corner, this quadrant, of the
6 Avery property, again, the , uh, Dassey and Janda
7 trailer, Steven Avery trailer, the van that was
8 for sale, you'll be able to see that, uh, this
9 burn area , uh, was found j ust a a few feet
10 behind the garage of Steven Avery .
11 You ' re going to hear evidence that
12 within this burn area, um, obvious human bone
13 fragments were found . You ' re going to hear that
14 the Crime Lab came to process this scene, that
15 arson investigators came to process the scene .
16 They recovered , uh, at least on that first day,
17 that is , Tuesday, the 8th, as many of the bones
18 that they could recover from this obvious, um,
19 uh, destructive, uh, area, t his burn area, and
20 the evidence will, uh, show that, um, uh -- how
21 the bones were, uh -- were recovered and
22 transported for identification and examination .
23 You ' re going to hear that officers
24 Remember, this is Tuesday . They had gotten there
25 Saturday already. That officers weren't able to,
41
1 um, recover or to even examine this area. Uh,
2 either police officers, themselves, humans, or
3 with the assistance of K-9s, cadaver dogs, or
4 bloodhounds, or any kind of search dogs, were not
5 able to , uh, inspect this particular area, um,
6 because of a German Shepherd that was, uh,

7 vicious and that was guarding that particular,
8 uh, area. That particular burn area.
9 This is a photo that just assists you
10 and explains why it took until Tuesday to find
11 these, um, human remains in that area. All

12 right?
13 We 1 ll move a little bit more quickly

14 into the following -- or into the balance of that
15 week. Uh, the recovery of those bones, you will
16 hear, were in very, very, uh, small, um, size.

17 They were also very, um, degraded. They were
18 charred. Um, but they were all examined, um, by
19 a forensic anthropologist. We 1 ll talk about that
20 a little bit, uh, later in the case. But wha t

21 you need to know on Wednesday is that they were
22 able to say that they're human bones and that
23 they're from an adult female.
24 Uh, officers, obviously, at this point
25 believe t hat this is the site of the mutilation
42
1 and the disposa l of Teresa Halbach .
2 Later, on the next day , on Thursday , uh ,
3 this burn area -- this is a little
4 computer-generated image of the burn area , uh ,
5 officers , um, are able to f urther excavate and ,
6 um, recover all the rest of t h e bones t hat, uh ,
7 are found i n that area.
8 And let me just ta ke a - - a moment , uh ,
9 to tell you about these computer-generated
10 images , uh, that you're going to see . There's a
11 gentleman by the name of Tim Austin. He is a ,
12 um, employee with the Wisconsin State Patrol .
13 Uh, Tim Austin was at the scene for, uh , at least
14 seven of the days, uh, that led up to or incl uded
15 the processing of the scene , and Mr . Austin --
16 you' re going to hear evidence he took at least
17 4 ,100 measurements and later created, uh , not
18 only still images , uh, of the exterior of the
19 property , exterior of Mr. Avery ' s , uh, garage ,
20 and trai ler, and the burn area , and, uh , the
21 Janda and Dassey areas, um, but also some of the
22 interiors .
23 Because you're not going to be able to
24 go out there , because you ' re not going to be able
25 to do a -- a scene visit, um, Mr . Austin created
43
1 for you, uh, kind of a tour. Um, many of you
2 might be familiar with at least with some kind of
3 computers, virtual tours, that you're able to
4 kind of tour the area and -- and get kind of a
5 a -- a lay of the land, if you will, and you'll
6 hear how accurate , uh, the depictions are.

7 You're going to see it. You're going to see the
8 virtual tour so that you get a better flavor or
9 feel for where one item might be in relation to
10 another. All right? So , uh, we also have for
11 you these computer-generated images, um, t hat
12 you'll see.
13 Now , you heard about Sherry Culhane.
14 You heard about her doing some DNA work in this
15 case. Now, you ' re going to hear that Ms. Culhane
16 received from law enforcement 180 items -- 180
17 items of evidence, uh, where officers asked that
18 a DNA profile be developed. Uh, you're going to
19 hear that that is the largest submission of
20 evidence, ever, at the Wisconsin State Crime Lab,
21 uh, and that the amount of DNA work in this case,
22 uh, was absolutely overwhelming.
23 Ms. Culhane, and although not as
24 important, uh, in, uh, this case, uh, will still
25 tell you about all of the profiles that she was
44
1 able to develop. She'll tell you what DNA is ,
2 and it's a genetic fingerprint, and how you can
3 make matches and all those kind of things. All
4 right?
5 With that having been said, though ,
6 you're going to hear that one of the bones that
7 was recovered, one of the bones that was
8 recovered in the pit, still had some tissue on
9 it . So it had some muscle tissue on the bone .
10 It wasn't completely burned. It wasn't
11 completely degraded. This allowed Ms. Culhane,
12 uh, to develop a DNA profile, uh , and, in fact,
13 positively match this leg bone, uh, to the
14 sample , to the exemplar, to the standard of
15 Teresa Halbach.
16 So after that, um, bone is examined, and
17 after a DNA profile is established, there isn't
18 any more question as to who this female skeleton
19 is, this mutilated, um, fragmentary skeleton
20 belongs to , and that is, with 100 percent
21 certainty, Teresa Halbach.
22 So the investigative timeline , that is ,
23 the first, um, eight or ten days of this case ,
24 um, includes -- These aren't going to help you
25 because we have stuff on the bottom. So you're
45
1 going to have to look forward. Again, I
2 apologize for that. That will be fixed at, uh --
3 at the break.
4 But on the 31st of October, um, Teresa
5 Halbach is killed. You're going to hear about
6 the timeline of October 31. You're going to hear

7 t hat at 8:12 in the morning on the 31st, Steven
8 Avery lures or calls, um, AutoTrader Magazine,
9 and Teresa Halbach is asked to come out to the

10 scene. You're also going to hear she'd been
11 there five times before, um, but always with the

12 name of, uh, Steven Avery. Uh, at least I thin k
13 that's what the evidence is going to show. But
14 Mr. Avery used a different name, uh, that is, B.

15 Janda, to get her to come out on that afternoon .
16 You're going to hear at 11:43 that

17 morning, so sometime just before noon, Teresa
18 Halbach makes that call, that's recorded, to
19 Brendan Dassey and Barb Janda's answering machine
20 saying , I can come out. Uh, I'll be out there

21 sometime after 2:00, uh, today.
22 You're going to hear about the two stops
23 she made before Steven Avery's and Brendan

24 Dassey's residence . That is , at the Steven
25 Schmitz residence about 1 : 30 , and sometime
46
1 between 2 and 2 : 30 at a woman by the name of
2 JoEl l e n Zipperer's . Uh, the similar kind of
3 stops. She stops, she t akes p ictures of the
4 cars , she gives them an Au toTrader Magazine , a
5 bi l l of sale , she compl etes the transaction
6 before taking the photo for Auto Trader, and then
7 she goes on to her next stop that day .
8 Well, her next stop that day, uh, was
9 that of , um -- at the Steven Avery salvage
10 property . You're going to hear at 2 : 27 p . m. a
11 woman from AutoTrader, Dawn Pliszka , talks to ,
12 uh, Teresa Halba c h. You're going to hear that
13 during that conversation, um, Ms . Ha lbach says ,
14 I ' m on my way . I 'm on my way to the Steven Avery
15 property. So when we talk about a timel ine , when
16 was she there? About when does s he get there?
17 You're going to hear that the Zipperer
18 residence is less t han ten minutes from the Avery
19 property . And if at 2 : 27 she says , I 'm on my
20 way , it can be no longer or later than 3 : 27 or
21 about 3 : 40. Excus e me, 2:27 or about 2 :4 0 in t he
22 afternoon, 20 t o 3, that Teresa Halbach gets to
23 Steven Avery's property where t he photos are
24 taken .
25 You wil l hear evidence that s h e
47
1 completes the transaction. She takes the photos
2 of the van just like she's been asked to do. Uh,
3 you will then hear, uh, in, unfortunately,
4 graphic detail, what happens at Teresa Halbach
5 after 2:40 in the afternoon .
6 Let ' s go back to the investigation for
7 just a minute, though. Teresa doesn't show up
8 for work on the 1st or 2nd of, um, November. On
9 the 3rd , the Halbach family and friends become
10 understandably concerned, and they begin to
11 retrace Teresa's steps. Where is Teresa? How
12 can we find her?
13 On the 4th, both the citizen efforts and
14 the law enforcement efforts to find Teresa are
15 kind of ramped up. Um, they do aerial searches ,
16 uh, they look at financial transactions, they
17 check out her cell phone records, and which
18 towers that her cell phone kind of ping off of,
19 or bounce off of, and also you'll hear about the
20 distribution of missing person posters at that
21 time by citizens.
22 You'll hear that on the morning of the
23 5th her vehicle is found at 10:30 in the morning
24 by the Sturms. At about 2:00, investigators , uh,
25 become actively involved in searching, or at
48
1 least in obtaining search warrants , and then, uh ,
2 searching the property, and you'll then hear
3 about the searches continuing.

4 Uh, very quickly, on Sunday, the, urn,
5 firearms and garage is searched, and you'll hear
6 about the evidence, uh, that is obtained.

7 On the 7th, it becomes more full scale.
8 Lots and lots, in fact, hundreds of law
9 enforcement officers and vol unteers and citizens

10 become involved in the search of this massive
11 40-acre property. Uh , at that time all the

12 junked vehicles, uh, are searched, and you'll
13 hear about the discovery of the burn barrel.
14 On the 8th, those three critical
15 discoveries that we talked about , uh, that is,
16 the Toyota key being found in Steven Avery's

17 bedroom, uh, SUV plates are found at that time ,
18 and the burn area i s discovered, which -- excuse
19 me -- contains, uh, those human remains.
20 The 9th becomes an important day.

21 Steven Avery's arrested. Steven Avery's arrested
22 for a weapons charge. On the 9th, he's
23 interviewed. But what you'll also hear about the

24 Steven Avery contact on the 9th, uh, is that
25 officers take some photographs. They do a , uh,
49
1 physical examination of Steven Avery, and they
2 find a cut that you'll see in just a few minutes .
3 On the 10th, the burn area is further ,
4 um, examined. On the key, itself , on the key
5 that was found in Steven ' s bedroom, they find his
6 DNA . We'll talk about that a -- a -- a little
7 bit, uh -- a little bit further.
8 On the 11th, um, the victim's blood,
9 that is the female blood, from within the SUV
10 Remember the big pool? Or the big , uh , stains in
11 the cargo area in Teresa's, uh, SUV? Uh, those
12 now match, uh , a soda can that Teresa had up in
13 the front of the vehicle. It 's then presumed ,
14 uh, to be that of Teresa Halbach's.
15 So those are the first , uh, eight days
16 or so of the investigation and what you need to
17 know. Again, that's probably, you know,
18 two-and-a-half or three weeks, or could be, of
19 testimony that, in this case , we're going to try
20 to fit into a layer of evidence , try to fit into
21 about two days, maybe two-and-a-half days. So
22 it 's going to go quickly, but it 's meant to give
23 you a flavor of the size of this case , the scope
24 of this case , uh, and also , to the credit not
25 only of the Halbach family and to the memory of
50
1 Teresa, but you need to hear it. You need to
2 hear the who le story, uh, of the investigation.
3 We t alked about those DNA matches that,
4 uh, Ms. Culhane developed at the , uh , Crime Lab.
5 You're going to hear that Teresa ' s, um , b lood ,
6 uh, is, in fact , later positively identified,
7 positively matched, to a standard in the cargo
8 and -- and panel, uh, area.
9 The back cargo door . You're going to
10 hear about, uh, blood having been actual l y flung ,
11 uh, onto that door. You're going to hear from a
12 person by the name of Nick Stahlke, a blood
13 spatter expert, as to how those kind of blood
14 spatters , uh, can be left in a very violent , uh,
15 kinds of -- uh , of episodes .
16 You're going to hear her b lood was found
17 on the rear tail gate , uh, the door handle, and ,
18 again, on the -- on the soda can.
19 Uh, Steven Avery's blood, uh , is found ,
20 like I told you, in six different places in the
21 vehicle. Positive matches , uh, for Steven Avery,
22 on the, uh, rear passenger door, near the
23 ignition area, um, where Steven Avery's actively
24 bleeding finger actually leaves some DNA, uh, in
25 the ignition area . Also, in the front , that is
51
1 t he front passenger part, of the SUV, that is on
2 the , uh, CD case and , uh, on both of the fro n t
3 seats .
4 I told you before about the cut, t he
5 a ct ive ly bleeding cut , on Steven Avery , uh, on
6 the 9th. We wil l show you pictu res , uh, of t h e
7 remnants of that cut . I t was healing , uh, but
8 just how deep t hat c u t was . And you can draw the
9 conclusions , and , in fact , u h , it may or ma y not
10 even be contested that his finger was actively
11 bleeding on the 31st when he struggled wi th
12 Teresa , uh , and when he , uh, loaded h er in the
13 back of, uh, uh , the vehi cle , uh, and helped and
14 dispose of the vehi c le to, uh, conceal that
15 particular crime .
16 And , finally , you ' re going to hear
17 evidence of the DNA of Steven Avery being fo u nd
18 on Teresa Halbach ' s key . You're goi ng to hear
19 abou t how DNA is the same whether it 's in your
20 blood, wheth er it ' s in other bodily fl u ids, um,
21 perspiration, skin cells , semen , uh, other kinds
22 of places . It ' s the same genetic code. It ' s the
23 same DNA that 's found . And when Steven was
24 handling, uh, that , uh, key , uh, he left his
25 perspiration , h e left h is sweat on that key , and
52
1 Ms. Culhane , excuse me, was able to develop a
2 fu l l p ro file. All right?
3 Everybody take a deep breath, because

4 we're now going to start talking about the reas on
5 that you're here . That was all of Steven Av ery 's
6 case where the evidence that poi nted -- excuse
7 me - - t o Steven Avery.
8 Uh, this is going to be a time when the
9 Judge is going to allow you to take a few minute
10 brea k, your morning break . Excuse me . After you

11 return , we will then tell you about what evidence
12 it is that the State intends to show, uh , and why
13 it is, uh , that the State intends to prove beyond

14 a reasonable doubt that that man , uh , that
15 Brendan Dassey -- excus e me -- committed the
16 crimes of first degree intentional homicide ,

17 mutilation, and sexual assault.
18 So if we may, Judge, a -- a 10- or
19 15-minute --
20 THE COURT : Certainly .

21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: - - break at this t i me ,
22 and when you come back, uh , I will conclude my
23 opening statement. Thank you, very much.

24 THE COURT: We' ll recess for 15 minutes .
25 (Recess had at 10 :1 3 a.m .)
53
1 (Reconvened at 10 : 32 a .m.)
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The screens have been
3 fixed. The reason we're here is for Brendan
4 Dassey. For the jury to consider Brendan
5 Dassey's behavior. Uh, t hat is whether he
6 participated in criminal b e havior.
7 The Judge instructed you that you' re
8 going to be able to take notes during the
9 testimony in this case , during the presentation
10 of -- of the evidence. Um, and as you ta ke
11 notes , um , it oftentimes is a sugges t ion from the
12 lawyers , Mr., um, Fremge n or -- or Edelstein,
13 whoever is giving their opening statement, may
14 have suggestions , uh, for you as we ll .
15 But in note taking, in ta king detailed
16 notes, which you ' re going to be able to use
17 during your d eliberations, the two questions at
18 least that the State is going to ask, or present
19 evidence, that's going to ask you to answer are
20 these: Number one , was h e t h ere? And, number
21 two, did he h elp? Was h e there? And did he
22 help?
23 On November 6, Brendan Dassey, right
24 after this case began, right after the
25 investigation began in this case , denied any
54
1 knowledge of Teresa Halbach's death. Uh ,
2 indicated some version that he had seen h is Uncle
3 Steve talking wi th , uh, Teresa, but the
4 investigators pretty much discarded that, because
5 it wasn't consistent , it didn ' t fit wi t h the
6 timeline . Didn't fit with the evidence .
7 Remember, Teresa got there about 2:40.
8 You're going to hear evidence that Brendan didn't
9 get off the bus from school until 3 : 45 , a full
10 hour after that meeting, after Teresa would have
11 been talking out on a porch with, uh, Mr . Avery .
12 And so Brendan was nowhere on the radar screen.
13 He was nowhere, uh, a suspect. He was a -- a
14 witness, like any other witness, who might have
15 been on the property.
16 That tends to change on February 27 when
17 Brendan starts giving new details. He's
18 reinterviewed, uh, based upon some , uh , other
19 information that was obtained by Mr. Fassbender
20 and Mr. Wiegert, and he then becomes a much more
21 important witness . He ' s a witness at this point.
22 He says he sees Steve standing near the
23 fire . He sees body parts of Teresa Halbach in
24 the fire. He helps put fuel on the fire to help
25 kind of stoke up the fire, if you will. And
55
1 Uncle Steve makes some admissions that , uh, Uncle
2 Steve stabbed Teresa Halbach , but that also that
3 Mr . Dassey saw some c l othing. And ,
4 interestingly, he said he saw Teresa's clothing
5 in a bag and he saw them in a bag in the garage.
6 Well, as officers , you wil l learn, kind

7 of reconstructed that February 27 statement .
8 They started saying , as investigators do , well ,
9 wait a second , that can't happen that way . How
10 can he describe Teresa Halbach's clothing if
11 they ' re i n a bag?
12 Forensic interviews , you will hear - -
13 you ' 11 hear t estimony from , uh , Investigator Mark
14 Wiegert -- uh, are designed for wi tnesses.
15 Witnesses give interviews, and fore nsic
16 interviewing, uh, you will hear, urn, some version
17 of what's called the funnel technique . And I ' m
18 not going to bore you right now, because I 'll let
19 Mr . Wiegert bore you , uh, later with , uh -- with
20 what the funnel technique is.
21 The theory , though , is that witnesses
22 when you ' re trying to get details , the evidence
23 will show , is that you start with a free
24 narrative . A narrative . Tell me everything you
25 know about what happened in the case . And then
56
1 it becomes more and more directed. Uh , you can
2 ask direct questions, or more focused questions ,
3 or even, in the rare case, you can ask leading
4 questions, to try to draw out of witnesses what
5 they know about the case. That makes sense. It
6 makes sense that you want them to tell you

7 everything , but you ' re going to have to follow up
8 with, um with questions.
9 You 're also going to hear , though, that
10 there ' s a difference between interviews and
11 interrogations . Interrogations are designed for
12 suspects. They're not designed for witness es .
13 And you're going to hear in this case -- in fact ,
14 you ' re going to hear a lot in this case -- about
15 interrogations , about the i nterrogativ e process,
16 about the process of asking questions, and the
17 process of obtaining truthful information from
18 suspects.
19 You ' re going to hear that confessing to
20 a crime, and, in fact , the most serious crime is
21 murder, but confessing to any crime is an
22 unnatural act. I t goes against a human's, um,
23 feeling of self-preservation. Okay? That should
24 make sense to -- to everybody , and the evidence
25 is going to show that. That it is dif ficult to
57
1 have somebody admit to a very , very serious, um,
2 crime .
3 And so ther e are techniques that are
4 developed to encourage suspects . Again , these
5 are interrogations , these aren ' t interviews . But
6 to encourage suspects to provide truthful

7 information . You ' re going to hear about those
8 techniques , that t hose techniques incl ude some
9 kind of an accusation that the person ' s not
10 telling the truth . And in every confession ,
11 every admission that Mr . Wiege rt , and perhaps
12 other witnesses , will tell you about , they always
13 start with a denial . I wasn 't i nvolved in the
14 case.
15 You will then hear how confessions or
16 admissions move from denials to admissions. It ' s
17 called shifting from denials to admissions.
18 You're going to hear about the stages where a n
19 individual will become in a very passive mode ,
20 will allow the investigator to do most of the
21 talking. In fact , you ' ll hear about body
22 language , a nd looking d own, and -- and, uh ,
23 really kind of, uh , allowing the investigator to
24 give their version about wha t happened.
25 And you will see a point -- They ' ll
58
1 describe a point that is, investigators will
2 describe a point i n every i n terrogation where
3 this happens , bu t in Mr . Das sey ' s cas e , you wi l l
4 see a point where t hat fi rst a dmi ssion occurs .
5 The first acceptance of some responsibility for
6 being involved in the case . All right? Then the
7 rest of the interrogation is drawing out as many
8 detai l s as you possibly can .
9 Now, I told you t hat , urn , moving from
10 denia l s to admissions are unnatural . It's a
11 difficult kind of thing to do , and there ' s two
12 techniques in this case , and you ' ll see evidence
13 i n this cas e , um, t hat you' ll he ar a lot .
14 The first technique , uh , is something
15 called expressing superior knowledge .
16 Investigators oftentimes -- and if you think
17 about it they have to -- t hey oftentimes express
18 that t h ey know more than they do . Uh , that they
19 have more information than they really have .
20 You ' re going to hear evidence , you ' re
21 going to hear testimony, when officers say things
22 like , i t ' s all right , we al r eady know what
23 happened, or words to that effect , in this case ,
24 you ' re going to hear that over and over and over
25 again , it ' s all right , we already know what
59
1 happened , understand that the officers will
2 explain that that is a techni que . It is a
3 techn i que to enc oura ge t ha t unnatu ral act . To

4 e nc ourage the act of goi ng from a denial , uh , to ,
5 uh , an admission .
6 You ' ll also hear testimony about how

7 guilty people , that is , people who reall y do
8 corrunit crimes , how they hear tha t very phrase ,
9 it ' s all right , we already know what happened ,
10 how they hear that differently than somebody
11 who ' s innocent, or somebody who may not have

12 corrunitted a crime . All right?
13 So you can kind of fig ure it out
14 yourselves . I mean , jurors, you ' ll be able to

15 figure this out , and the evidence will help you
16 with that , but guilty people, when they hear we

17 already know what happened , will tend to make
18 admissions . Innocent peopl e , who weren ' t

19 involved at all , who hear we already know what
20 happene d , wil l think , good, then you ' re going t o

21 know I wasn ' t involved , and so how it plays on ,
22 and you ' ll need to kind of understand that
23 difference in the dynamic .

24 The last , um, concept that you'll hear
25 about , that I wa nt to talk about in opening
60
1 statement , is giving a suspect a reason to admit.
2 We talked about t hat before. Uh, is a suggestion
3 that they will feel better. That they will have
4 some moral acceptance. All right? Some real or
5 perceived better feelings about themselves if
6 they get it off their chest . So whether you'll

7 sleep better, or you'll feel better, or you 'l l
8 get it off your chest, or words to that effect ,
9 when you hear that in this case, know, and you'll
10 hear evidence about , that this is a technique
11 an interrogation technique -- and you'll hear a

12 lot about t hat.
13 Well, there's safeguards, too, that
14 you're going to hear about. We don't just, uh,
15 base your case on admissions or confessions of
16 peopl e , but you have to try to verify what it is
17 that somebody says. And this screen explains
18 some of those t hings that the testimony wi ll show
19 in this case .
20 Can that person's statement be verified,
21 or what's called "corroborated ", through physical
22 evidence or other known facts? Right? That
23 makes sense.
24 Number two , were the details not yet
25 known to the public, and , more importantly, I 'm
61
1 going to throw in here, were they not yet even
2 known to the law enforcement officers who were
3 asking the question?
4 And , number three , the ability of the
5 suspect to resist false suggestions . Not to
6 resist suggestions, but to resist false

7 suggestions.
8 We'll talk about t hat when we talk about
9 t hese March 1 statements .
10 Now, you're going to hear in this case
11 that there was nothing unique about the March 1
12 interrogation of Brendan Dassey other than it
13 started off as a witness' statement . Remember,
14 on March 1 Brendan Dassey was still a witness.

15 He was not a suspect at all . He wasn't on , uh,
16 the radar screen. All Brendan did at that point,
17 or a ll the police knew at that point, is that he
18 may have seen some things in a fire of his Uncle
19 Steve, Steven , um, uh, Avery. And you' re going
20 to see that entire March 1 statement given by

21 Brendan Dassey.
22 Now, some of it i s going to be difficult
23 to watch for a couple of reasons.

24 Number, one , some of it ' s really boring,
25 um, but we're going to show you start to fini s h
62
1 the e n tire admission . I think it ' s about fo ur
2 hours long. So as you thi n k later in t his wee k,
3 um, just prepare yourselves, you're going to have
4 four h ours of sitting and watching , um, a lot of
5 times , not very interesting , um -- interesting
6 questions .
7 But let me also warn you, because it's
8 fair for me to do this, that some of the details
9 may be dis t urbing . Uh, they are statements made
10 by a young man who involved hims e l f in some very ,
11 v ery serious b e h a v ior , some v ery serious c ho ices .
12 And you're going to hear how h e made those
13 choices, and the kinds of things that he and his
14 uncle did to this 25- year-old girl . All right?
15 Now, we have to give you t h ose details.
16 We have to play the e ntire, um, statement for
17 you . You ' re the jury in this case . You have to
18 determine whether or not this makes sense , the
19 degree of detail that Brendan gives , the words
20 that Brendan u ses , wheth er or not they ought to
21 be believed . That ' s y o u r job. Your job at the
22 end of this case will decide whether that
23 statement ought to be believed.
24 I ' m going to br i efly go through what
25 Brendan Dass e y say s on March 1 , the v e rsion --
63
1 Brendan ' s version of what happened to Teresa
2 Halbach.
3 Bre ndan Dassey , i n , aga in , sometimes
4 graphic detail, will talk about approaching Uncle
5 Steve's trailer , and before he even knocks on the
6 door , he hears screaming . He hears screaming
7 from inside of the trailer , and he knocks on the
8 door .
9 Now, remember what I told you before
10 about , um , Brendan ' s statements and should they
11 be believed , and the things that , uh, was he
12 there , uh , and did he help?
13 Uh, remembe r, a l so - - And at the end of
14 my opening , we're going to talk about some
15 choices and the evidence of some choices that
16 Brendan makes . But the choice to knock on the
17 door , even t hough you hear screaming from a young
18 woman ins i de, uh, is the first choice that
19 Brendan makes .
20 You ' re going to hear that Steven Avery
21 answers the door. You ' re going to he ar that he's
22 sweaty , and that he tells Brendan Dassey that he
23 has raped thi s woman that he has in the back of

24 his bedroom . The se are diffi cult , hard images to
25 kind of wrap your mind around. But this is the
64
1 version that Brend an Dassey gave on the 3 1 st of
2 October.
3 Brendan actually sees Teresa t ied up.
4 He sees her shackled with handcuffs and leg irons
5 to the back bed -- in t h e back bedroom . And,
6 here, whe n we talk about decisions, Mr . Avery ,
7 himself, asks Brendan if he wants to have sex
8 with the woman t hat's been restrained i n the
9 bedroom now.
10 Some of the language is very graphic ,
11 urn, he the y don' t use the word, do you want to
12 have sex . All right? They use some v ery , v ery
13 c r ude, degrading language t owards any woman , but
14 certainly towards a young woman , uh, who is i n
15 this trailer already .
16 When we talk about those decis ions that
17 Brendan gets to ma ke at this point, Brendan says,
18 yes, I want to d o that .
19 You're going to hear that Brendan Das sey
20 rapes Teresa Halbach. You hear that he walks
21 into t h e b e droom wh ile Teresa 's restrained on the
22 bed , and by force , and by violence , a nd wi t h the
23 us e and threat of a weapon, he h as sexu al
24 intercourse wi th this woman without her consent .
25 You ' re going to hear a lot more details
65
1 that I 'm not going to share with you at this t ime
2 about that particular moment , that particular ,
3 um, event. I want you to listen to that young
4 man's description of what Teresa Halbach says to
5 him as he's doing that to her .
6 After the rape , Steven Avery praises his
7 nephew , and says, that's how you do it . These
8 are explanations, again, from Brendan. The
9 repulsive expression , lack of empathy, lack of
10 any kind of moral fiber , any kind of moral
11 compass at all , for an uncle to tell a nephew,
12 that's how you do it.
13 Then Steven and Brendan discuss if t hey
14 should , and how they should, kill Teresa Halbach .
15 Again , the decision tree. What does Brendan
16 decide to do? Steve says, will you help me?
17 Brendan says, yes. You'll hear testimony about
18 Steven and Brendan going into the bedroom .
19 Steven Avery stabs the victim . Brendan Dassey,
20 handed the knife by Uncle Steve, cuts Teresa
21 Halbach's throat.
22 You ' re going to h ear that they take, um,
23 this 25 - year-old woman, unclothed, to the garage.
24 They place h er on the floor. Dassey waits with
25 Teresa Halbach , who is not yet dead, laying on
66
1 the floor , as Mr . Avery retrieves his .22 caliber
2 Marlin Gl enfield semi-automatic rifl e , and
3 Brendan says Uncle Steve shoots her t en times , at
4 lea st twice in the head , including on t he left
5 side of her head .
6 The statement goes on that Avery and

7 Dassey load Ms. Halbach , who ' s now been killed ,
8 thankful l y , into the back of her -- cargo area of
9 her SUV, and they decide how to dispose of her
10 body.
11 Mr . Avery dis -- d i scusses and decides
12 that , uh , we shoul d burn the body . Should
13 mutilate the body so t hat it can conceal the
14 crime. Mr . Dassey will tell investigators that
15 he helped. That he helped carry this unclothed
16 young woman to this large bonfire in the back of
17 Steven ' s garage and throws this young girl on t he
18 fire .
19 You ' re going to hear that , um,
20 Mr. Dassey describes burning , mutilating the body
21 to conceal the murder , and taking this very large
22 car seat remember , you saw that in earlier
23 pictures and the two of them threw this car
24 seat onto the fire .
25 By the way, let me just stop here , and,
67
1 as you take notes , as you take notes during this
2 trial , please remember to jot down the kinds of
3 things that require two people . Please remember

4 to jot down where it's a two- man job rather than
5 a one-man job, to help you decide , was he t here ?
6 This is one of those places that

7 requires a two-man job. This large, um, car seat
8 that you'll see, this large metal frame, that's
9 thrown on top of this young woman whose body's
10 being mutilated.
11 You're going to hear Brendan tell the
12 officers that the vehicle was driven down to that
13 pit area that we, uh, talked about, that it was
14 concealed with branches and a car hood, and the
15 license plates were removed, and Steven Avery ,
16 for some reason , went underneath the hood of , uh,
17 Teresa's vehicle.
18 Brendan Dassey will tell you that the
19 garage that , thereafter, when they walked back,
20 that the garage was cleaned with bleach , was

21 cleaned with gas , was c leaned with paint thi nner,
22 that Mr. Avery took the Toyota key , put it into
23 his bedroom, that Teresa's clothes were thrown

24 onto the fire .
25 They're statements from Brendan.
68
1 Remember this . Brendan ' s telling you that her
2 clothes were thrown on the fire , that Avery ' s
3 finger was cut and actively bleeding at the time ,

4 that Teresa's cell phone and camera were burned
5 in the burn barrel earlier that day , and t hat
6 Steven ' s girlfriend , Jodi , Jodi Stachowski , had
7 called Steven Avery's house at least twice while
8 Brendan was at the house .
9 Those are the statements of an
10 individual. The details of an individual who's
11 committed rape and murder and mutil ation . It ' s
12 your dec i sion, the jury ' s decision alone , whether
13 or not he was there and whether or not he helped .
14 And when you evaluate Brendan ' s testimony , you're
15 going to have to come up with , um , those
16 decisions . I can ' t tell you. There ' s no expert
17 witness, the Judge , uh , nobody can tell you, but
18 the jury, collectively, will decide whether to
19 believe Brendan or not .
20 Now , the police officers will provide
21 you wi th some help to corroborate , to explain the
22 confession , t he evidence in this case . Uh,
23 you'l l have to ask yourself whether the police

24 already know . Even though Mr . Wi egert keeps
25 saying , it ' s all right , Brendan , we already know ,
69
1 you're going to find out they didn't already
2 know, uh, what -- and were very, very surprised
3 of, uh, what Brendan, uh, was telling them detail
4 after detail after detail.
5 What did they suspect? Um , and what
6 could the police verify? What later could they
7 find, by physical evidence, to support or to
8 corroborate what it was that Brendan was saying?
9 Later that same day , on March 1, you're
10 going to hear that the officers -- they got a
11 search warrant. They said , well, if Brendan says
12 that Teresa was shot in the garage , we better go
13 take a look in t hat garage. We better take a
14 better look than we took last time.
15 The evidence that will be presented to
16 you that will verify Brendan Dassey ' s statements,
17 the State believes, will be compelling, the State
18 will -- believes will corroborate or verify what
19 Brendan says. Again , we're not going to ask you
20 take Brendan's word for it , all of these things ,
21 but all of these questions that I'm going to ask
22 you now, and this is the last portion of my
23 opening statement, uh, is meant to, um, explain
24 to you the physical evidence that answers a l l of
25 these questions .
70
1 When Brendan says tha t Tere sa was i n t he
2 trailer on 31st, do we believe t hat or not?
3 Wel l, you ' re going to see evidence that, uh, an
4 AutoTrader Magazine and the bi l l of sale, t he
5 complet i on of the transaction, the c ompletion of
6 the photography , and her business wi th Steve n a r e

7 found in the trailer . Found inside t he traile r
8 verifying what Brendan said .
9 Was Teresa restrained that day as
10 Brendan says? You're going to hear that both
11 handcuffs and l eg irons we re found in Steven
12 Avery ' s bedroom during the search of his bedroom.
13 The most important question, perhaps, is
14 was she shot in the garage? And that's where the
15 March 1 search warrant becomes so critically
16 important . You're going to see the snow, and the
17 snow is kind of your cue t hat this is in March,
18 rather than , uh , the November, uh , before .
19 Uh , this is Steven Avery ' s garage whe r e
20 they do a much more thorough search , uh, o f , uh
21 -- of the garage.
22 There are two -- These are called
23 evidence tents, by the way , and No . 9 and No . 23,
24 which is back here , which I'll show you in just a
25 minute, are the important ones . Officers do , i n
71
1 fact , find two bullets . Reme mber? He said that
2 she was shot in t h e garage .
3 The pol i ce , on March 1, as a result of
4 Steve of , u h , Brendan Dassey ' s statements ,
5 after getting the search war rant , find t wo
6 bullets in the garage . One where Tent No . 9 wa s
7 shown , it ' s closer to the fro n t of t he garage,
8 and one behi nd a compressor , where Tent No . 23 ,
9 uh , is located . This i s a better view for you of
10 where , uh , tho se two bul lets are f ound in the
11 garage , but the most i mportant finding is No. 23 .
12 Bullet No . 23 isn ' t just a bullet the y find , but
13 Sherry Cul hane finds Teresa Halbach' s DNA on t h at
14 bullet .
15 This e v idence , this bul let , is proof
16 positive , 100 percent , something the police
17 d idn ' t know , that Teresa was , in fact, shot in
18 t h e garage , just l i ke Brendan Dassey told the
19 police.
20 Was s h e shot te n times? You' re going to
21 h ear , on t h e 6th when t h e y revi e wed and they
22 examined and collected evidence , the re were 11
23 separate . 2 2 caliber shell casings that we re
24 recovered . Very consistent. Was she s ho t with
25 this v ery . 22 caliber rifl e? Again , of al l t h e
72
1 rifles in the world, Brendan said it was Uncle
2 Steve's that was hanging on the wall that was
3 us e d to shoot Teresa.
4 You're going to hear evidence from a man
5 by the name of Bill Newhouse from the Crime Lab .
6 Mr . Newhouse wi ll take that . 22 caliber rifle ,

7 you will hear, do some test firings, and will
8 match the . 22 calibe r bul let that was recove r ed
9 in this case , as well as a l l of the shell casings
10 that were recovered , and will tell you that this
11 bullet and these shell casings came from this gun
12 to t he exclusion of all other guns on earth .
13 This gun . Not just consistent with. They come
14 from this gun.
15 Was Te resa shot in her head as Brendan
16 will tell you? You 'll hear from our
17 anthropol ogist , Dr. Leslie Eisenberg , who, uh , is
18 the bone expert , who will find a p i ece of bone
19 that she will describe as a piece of Teresa
20 Halbach ' s cranium, that is , a skull bone piece ,
21 and you ' ll hear and you ' ll see that beveling ,
22 that curve mark the r e , is actually an entrance
23 wound.
24 They even take , uh , x - rays of that
25 particular cranial piece, and Ken Olson from t he
73
1 Crime Lab will tell you that -- and perhaps you
2 can see those little white dots , uh, that are
3 right next to, uh, the entrance wound -- those

4 little white dots, when they're x-rayed, are
5 lead. That's lead from a bullet . All right?
6 So these are bul let entrance wounds to

7 Teresa 's head, just like Brendan Dassey told you
8 happened in the garage .
9 Both Dr. Eisenberg and our pathologist ,
10 Dr. Jentzen , will render the opinion that there
11 are at least two gunshot wounds to the head found

12 from these cranial remains . One on the left side
13 of the head, just like Brendan says, and one to
14 the back of the head of Teresa Halbach .
15 Do we believe that , um, Teresa 1 s body
16 was loaded in the rear of the SUV, as Brendan
17 says? Well, you'll see and you 1 ll hear from a
18 blood spatter expert who will talk about the, uh,
19 large stains , the blood stains , that are left
20 from Teresa Halbach. That's her blood, by the
21 way, and we 'll show you some close-ups ,
22 unfortunately, uh, of that particular area of the
23 cargo area of Teresa ' s car where , just like

24 Brendan tells you , she ' s loaded in the back of
25 the cargo area of t h e SUV.
74
1 Was her body burnt and mut ilated like
2 Brendan tells you? Lots and lots and lots of
3 evi dence about this .
4 Fi rst of all , the , um, burn area in the
5 burn pit , itself -- You'll also, by the way , hear
6 from some witnes ses . Um , Brendan's now
7 stepfather, Scott Tadych, will actually be called
8 to testify. I'm sure he won ' t want to , uh, but
9 he will say on the 31st , t hat night, uh , between
10 7 : 30 and 7 : 45 in the evening , he saw Brendan and
11 Steven tending that fire, and we ' ll tal k about
12 the flames be i ng so high behind that garage .
13 He not only sees the fire , he sees
14 Brendan and Steven Avery . So an eyewitness will
15 put Brendan there , just li ke he said he was, back
16 tending that fire .
17 You ' l l hear about the bones being
18 r ecovered and be i ng charred, and we've already
19 talked about t h is particular , uh , bone , but
20 Dr. Eisenberg will also identify every bone that
21 is found . Uh, these , uh , anthropologists are
22 able to look at a little fragmen t of bone and
23 tell you that i t comes from this part of the leg,
24 or that part of the arm , or that part of the
25 spine. And she ' ll tes t ify , and she'll tell you
75
1 that every bone of Teresa Halbach is represented
2 in that burn pit in the back.
3 You'll even hear from a dentist, the
4 forensic dentist, Dr. Donald Simley, uh, who
5 f ound a particul ar tooth, Tooth No. 31, on Teresa
6 Halbac h. On the left is Teresa ' s x-ray, whe n she
7 was alive , of that particular tooth, and on the
8 right is what's found in t he burn pit . In the
9 burn a rea. You'll be able to match them up for
10 yours e lf, that Teresa 's Tooth No. 31, urn , one of
11 the back teeth on the left side of her jaw , was
12 recovered from the burn area .
13 Brendan says that a car seat was thrown
14 in the fire. Do we have evidence of that? Can
15 we prove t hat? Can we corroborate that e vide nce?
16 Absolute ly. We will show you , and , in fact ,
17 we'll bring into this courtroom, the remains of
18 that burned car seat . Two-man job, ladies a nd
19 gentlemen . Two people require d to throw that car
20 seat, to carry t ha t part i c ular me t a l grave car
21 seat .
22 Brendan says t he SUV was driven to the
23 pit area . Uh, you 'l l find not only where the,
24 uh, SUV was found , where t he , um , crus hed -- or
25 car crusher is , you'll also see some diagrams
76
1 that Brendan actual ly places where Uncle Steve
2 and I dropped off and hid that vehicle to conceal
3 this crime.
4 Brendan said it was concealed with
5 branches and a car hood. Did that happen?
6 Absolutely. Branches and a car hood, exactly as
7 Brendan described, will be found conceali ng that
8 car.
9 Members of the jury, two-man job . We'l l
10 probably bring in t hat large p iece of heavy car
11 hood to show you, um, that Brendan and Uncle
12 Steve leaned that and concealed that car .
13 Were Teresa's license plates removed as,
14 uh, Brendan said? Absolutely. We f i nd the
15 license plates in a junked vehi cle.
16 Was Teresa's car hood opened up by Uncle
17 Steve as Brendan says? Well , on April 3 , again ,
18 as a result of Brendan's statements , law
19 enforcement s wabs -- they take a Q-tip and - - and
20 they swab the hood latch, reaching up underneath
21 the hood , just to see if we can get a a DNA
22 profile . Sherry Culhane does. She gets a full
23 profile that 's Steven Ave ry ' s s weat. Steven
24 Avery ' s sweat is found on the hood latch , just
25 like should happen if Brendan is to believed that
77
1 Uncle Steve went under the hood .
2 Again , facts not known by law
3 enforcement at the t ime Brendan made these
4 statements .
5 Brendan says that the garage floor was
6 cleaned wi t h paint thinner . You're going to hear

7 from a man by the name of John Ertl, from the
8 Cri me Lab , who wi ll talk about a three- or
9 four-foot circle, just to the l eft and behind the
10 riding tractor , uh, whi c h is a big bleach sta in .
11 Uh, Mr . Ert l will talk about that b leach stain .
12 You ' ll see that bleach and paint thi nner are
13 recovered . Uh, but perhaps most important ly ,
14 Brendan, himself, hands over to Investigator
15 Fassbender his j eans . He says , these were the
16 pants I was wearing t hat night, and these pants
17 are splashed wi th bleach from cleaning Uncle

18 Steve's garage.
19 Brendan said that, uh, Teresa ' s
20 Halbach's, uh , key was put i nto t h e bedroom. You

21 already know that the key was found in Uncle
22 Steve ' s bedroom.
23 Interestingly , Brendan says that the

24 clothes of Teresa Halbach, after they cleaned up,
25 were burned . The y were thrown on to the burn
78
1 pile. Little bit harder to prove that her
2 clothes are actually burned . But we did it .
3 You 're going to hear from a young lady today, uh,

4 by the name of , uh , Katie Halbach. Katie's
5 actually sitting in the front row. Teresa 's
6 sister.
7 She knows about Teresa's clothes, and
8 Teresa owned a pair of what's called Daisy
9 Fuentes jeans . They're jeans, you're going t o
10 hear , that are sold at a Kohl ' s Department Store.
11 She kidded he r sister. Katie kidded Teresa, as
12 sis ters sometimes do, about having those kind of
13 jean s . Um, but you 're going to hear that after
14 Teresa's death, t hose jeans were missing . Those
15 jean s were gone. Teresa was wearing those jeans
16 on the 31st of October .
17 Jeans have little r ivets on them, and
18 those of you that are wearing j eans can kind of ,
19 uh, take a look at this a little bit later, but
20 Daisy Fuentes has six different rivets that

21 actually say the words ''Daisy Fuentes" on them.
22 You ' re going to hear that the five of
23 those six rivets were recovered f rom the burn

24 area right behind Steven ' s, um, garage. Also a
25 zipper was fo und and some other clothing items
79
1 were found. So as Brendan Dassey , that nobody
2 else knew about the burning of the clothes,
3 Brendan Dassey, when he says that we burned her

4 clothes , were able to verify that .
5 Was Avery's finger cut and actively
6 bleeding? Of course , it was. We have a photo of

7 it and we have Avery ' s blood , which Mr . Stahlke,
8 the , uh, blood spatter expert , will tell you how
9 all of those are left .
10 Brendan says that Teresa's cell phone

11 and camera were burned in Avery ' s burn barrel.
12 Burn barrel was outside the car. You're going to
13 hear and read a report from a gentleman by the
14 name of Curtis Thomas . Mr. Thomas works at the
15 FBI in Virginia. Mr. Thomas got to see all these
16 electronics which were recovered from Mr. Avery's

17 burn barrel. And guess what was in the re ?
18 Teresa Halbach's Motorola V3 RAZR ce ll phone ,
19 Teresa Halbach's PowerShot A310 digital camera
20 are found, just like Brendan said they woul d be .

21 Last ly , did Avery's girlfriend call
22 twice on October 31? Phone records will indicate
23 that a woman by the name of Jodi Stachowski , the
24 girlfriend of Steven Avery , called twice on the

25 31st, just like Brendan said.
80
1 The evidence in t hi s case , members of
2 the jury, isn't just goi ng be based on the
3 stateme nts of a young man, aren't jus t going to
4 be the f ancifu l , um, expressions or , um,
5 imagination of somebody. We ' re going to be ab l e
6 to prove to you in this case that things the

7 publ ic didn ' t know, thi ngs the police didn't
8 know , were provided by a young man who was at t he
9 scene . Was he there? Absolutely . Did he help?
10 Absolutely .
11 And so the jury ' s role, then , will be to
12 decide these facts . Your r o l e as a jury will be
13 to decide whether Brendan's ad.missions of
14 i nvolvement i n this case , knowing things that
15 nobody else knows , that only the murderer and the
16 murderer ' s accomplice could know in this case ,
17 and you are to search fo r the truth.
18 The evidence, members of the jury, a t
19 the con clus ion of this case is not goi ng to show
20 that Brendan Dassey was at t he wrong place at the
21 wrong time. The evidence is going to show that
22 Brendan Dassey was at the right place at the
23 right time .
24 Te resa Ha lbach got lucky . She got lucky
25 t hat there was a young man who showed up. She
81
1 got lucky that there was one person that could
2 save her life. But the choices that Brendan
3 Dassey made, the choices that he made with his
4 uncle, insured that instead of leaving, instead
5 of just saying , no , instead of talking Uncle
6 Steve ou of it, which were all choices that he

7 had, instead of cal ling 911, instead of calling
8 his mother or a family member, or i nstead of
9 actively rescuing this girl, Brendan Dassey chose
10 to rape this young girl, to involve himself in
11 her murder , and to help dispose of and mutilate
12 this 25-year-old body.
13 Choices require consequences and
14 accountability, and at the conclusion of this
15 case we're asking that you find the defendant
16 gui lty . Thank you, Judge.
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you. I don ' t ,
19 uh, have any audio visuals, so I'll apologize
20 ahead of time. You have to listen to me instead .
21 On October 31 of 20 05, Brendan Dassey
22 came home about 3:45 from school, from high
23 school , with his brother, Blaine. Not unusual
24 for Brendan to come home with Blaine. Everyday
25 they came home the same way. Dropped off at the
82
1 end of the street. The access road, the Avery
2 Road accesses to his house , and began to walk
3 down the road . It takes about five minutes to
4 get to the house from the - - from the mailboxes .
5 And as they're walking, they start to tal k about
6 who gets to use the phone first to call a friend

7 to go trick or treating. They race home, and
8 Blaine wins the race , so he gets the phone first .
9 Blaine calls his friend , Jason . They
10 set up a time to meet to go trick or treating,
11 and Brendan plays some video games. He watches a

12 little bit of TV, and about 5 : 00 his mom comes
13 home and makes supper for Blaine and - - and
14 Brendan .
15 About 20 after 5 , maybe 5:30, Blaine
16 leaves to meet Jason, his friend, to go trick or
17 treating , and Bar b Tadych, now Tadyc h, was Janda,
18 meets her boyfriend, fiance at t he time, at about
19 5:30 to go up to Green Bay to visit with his
20 mother who ' s i n the hospital.
21 She leaves , and Brendan is still at home
22 watching TV, playing some video games, and at
23 about 5:45 Blaine ' s boss, his name is Mike

24 Kornely, Brendan used to work for Mike as well ,
25 call s to talk to Blaine. Talks for about five
83
1 minutes and Brendan takes a message for Blaine
2 that -- that Mike called .
3 Shortly after that time, Steven Avery
4 calls. Steven Avery, obviously, as you know , is
5 Brendan ' s uncle . Lives about a couple hundred
6 yards from - - couple hundred feet from the house.
7 Calls and asks if he wants to come over to watch
8 a bonfire that that Steve has se t . Brendan
9 says, yes .
10 About 15 minutes later , Steve calls
11 again , asks Brendan , what's taking you so long?
12 Brendan's kind of putzy , he 's going to he's
13 changing his pants, putting on a sweatshirt , it's
14 a little bit chilly for an October night , and he
15 goes over to the bonfire .
16 And when he gets there, i t's a little
17 bit dark now, about seven-ish. He drives around
18 with his Uncle Steven. Steven has his mother's
19 golf cart , and they ' re traveling around the yard
20 picking up debris. Wood , an old cabinet, some
21 tires, and a van seat. And as they col lect the
22 items, they begin to pile them up next to -- or
23 just to the side of this litt le area behind
24 Steven ' s garage whe re he ' s got the bonfire going.
25 They throw some items onto the bonfire ,
84
1 put some other items off to the side, and they do
2 that for about four or five trips arou nd the
3 yard, collect i ng debri s, collecting garbage , and
4 they begin to toss the garbage onto t he fire
5 throughout the night .
6 After they ' re done cleaning up the yard,
7 Steven asks Brendan if he wants to help clean up
8 a mess in his garage . Brendan says, yes .
9 They go into the garage , and there ' s a
10 small area behind the lawnmower as if something
11 had spilled . Steven takes some gasoline and
12 pours it onto t his little area , and they use some
13 c l ot hing , o ld rags , t hat sop up the mess, and as
14 they begin to clean it up with these old clothes
15 and old rags , they throw them onto t he fire, and
16 they do that for about a half hour . Steven tr ies
17 some gasoline and paint - - paint thinner t o help
18 clean up the area , and some bleach as well .
19 After about a half hour , they go back
20 out by the bonfire and Steven gets a call on his
21 cell phone . It ' s from Brendan's mom, Barb . She
22 ca ll s over to - - to see if Brendan i s over by
23 Stev en by the bonfi re. He says he is . Remi nds
24 Steven t o tell Brendan that he needs to be home
25 bef ore ten and asks that he has a sweatshirt or a
85
1 coat on b ecause , again , it ' s kind of a chilly
2 night.
3 Brendan never talks to his mom, but he
4 knows he now has to be home by ten. They watch
5 t he fire for awhile and then tossed t he van seat
6 onto t he bac k of t he fir e . About 9:30 , quarter
7 to 10, Brendan goes home . Gets home , watches
8 some TV, and goes to bed.
9 Now -- Now , what I 've j us t done is
10 explain to you what we believe t he evide nce will
11 show tha t happe ned on October 31 . As Mr. Kratz
12 has pointed out, that's called the opening
13 statement. I t hink it's more like a story. I t 's
14 li ke reading a nove l . A tri al i s kind of a
15 novel. Novels have characters , and yo u'l l see
16 witnesses. Novels have a plot or some sort of a
17 theme. Each side, the prosecutor and the
18 defense, we each have a theme we want to present
19 to you. And t hen there ' s always a conclusion.
20 Now, di ffere nce between a trial and a
21 novel is that t h e conclus i on hasn't been written .
22 That's your job. At the end of th i s case, after
23 each attorney has had an opportunit y to present
24 witnesses and evidence for you, had an
25 opportunity to g i ve what' s calle d a c losing
86
1 argument, after the Judge instructs you on the
2 law, it's up to you, and you alone, to finish t he
3 story, to decide what actually happened.
4 Now, not unlike a story or a novel ,
5 there can be turns and twists. Mr. Kratz pointed
6 out in their theme there are turns and twists ,
7 and we'll do the same. There may be similarities
8 between novels and trials, but t here are some
9 differences as well.
10 For instance, when I read a story,
11 sometimes I get a little anxious and I want to
12 find out, what -- what happened. Who did it . So
13 I tight -- tend to want to skip some of the
14 pages, pass up on a chapter , maybe even take a
15 peek at the very end. But you can 't do that .
16 Part of t hat, and the obvious reason, is that the
17 Court controls the tempo and flow of information
18 here . We can't just start now and we ' ll skip to
19 the end to the closing arguments . You need to
20 hear the evidence.
21 And when we talk in jury selection about
22 burden of proof and presumption of innocence , one
23 of the questions I had for you, and I believe
24 most of you raised your hands or at least nodded
25 affirmative ly, that you want to hear from both
87
1 sides , and you can't do that if you skip to the
2 end. You can't do that if you hear j ust one
3 side.
4 As Mr. Kratz pointed out, they get to go
5 first. They'll present you with number of
6 witnesses, days and days of -- of evidence,

7 exhibits, photographs, testimony. And when
8 they 're done, we get an opportunity to provide
9 you with the same .
10 But if you don't presume Brendan
11 innocent, even after they're done with their part
12 of the case, after t hey rest and allow us an
13 opportunity to present witnesses for you, then
14 you've already skipped to the end of the book .
15 You ' ve passed a number of chapters and -- and
16 you've denied the presumption of innocence .
17 And what I was, uh , most impressed by on
18 Jury selection is I believe every person here
19 agreed , raised their hand that, yes, we need to
20 presume Brendan innocent at all times unt il i t ' s
21 time for you to -- to deliberate, your final time
22 to go from here into the backroom to make your
23 decision .
24 It is important to remember who is on
25 trial. This is not the Steven Avery trial . And
88
1 it seems so simple to say that, but it ' s very
2 difficul t to do.
3 In February, late or early March, when

4 the Steven Avery trial was was , uh , going on,
5 I would often go to court , different count y, and
6 attorneys , and even a judge , would ask me ,

7 shouldn't you be over in Calumet? Isn ' t that
8 where the Avery trial's goi ng on? Yep , that ' s
9 true .
10 My in-laws , my , uh -- my neighbor , even

11 my pastor said the same thing to me , and I 'd have
12 to politely tell them that each time, wel l,
13 that 's a different t rial. I repre sent Brendan
14 Dassey, the nephew , and it ' s a different case

15 entirely .
16 And I believe that ' s what the State

17 wants to present to you as well. They need to
18 present evidence about the Steven Avery
19 involvement , but I think they want to focus on
20 Brendan as well , and to that I agree. This is

21 not Steven Avery.
22 You'll hear days and days of evidence
23 about Steven Avery , his DNA, his blood found in

24 the SUV, about the bone fragments behind his
25 house in a burn pit, about the bul let fragment
89
1 found in his garage. You ' ll hear about the
2 ignition key found in his bedroom.
3 But I don't believe you'll hear evidence
4 about Brendan Dassey ' s DNA . You won ' t hear the
5 same evidence involving Brendan Dassey . There
6 won't be any DNA , no blood, no saliva , no sweat ,
7 no hair , nothing . No fingerprints. No science
8 that ' s going to point you to Brendan Dassey . Not
9 the science that points to Steven Avery.
10 But , again , this is Brendan Dassey ' s
11 trial, not Steven ' s trial. It ' s about a
12 16-year-old boy at the time. It 's about a
13 16-year-old high school student with below
14 average cognit ive abilities. A fourth-grade
15 reading level , a low IQ . It ' s about a shy
16 introvert , socially inept , suggestible child .
17 That's what this trial is about .
18 You ' ll learn that th is shy, socially
19 inept, suggestible individual will meet two
20 highly trained , intelligent , adult police
21 officers . DCI Agent Torn Fassbender and
22 Investigator Mark Wiegert. They're trained as
23 adult law enforcement officers , trained to obtain
24 confessions , and trained on Brendan Dassey .
25 Alone with these two officers , Brendan makes
90
1 several statements , as Mr. Kratz has already
2 alluded to in his PowerPoint presentation , i n his
3 opening statement.
4 It starts off in a progress ion whe re
5 Brendan says Steven Avery killed Teresa Ha l bach ,
6 and it progresses to the point where he indicates

7 he participated . And the State will argue to you
8 later, and offer evidence throughout the trial,
9 t hrough the officers , t hat they believe that this
10 p rogression of audio taped statements from -- at
11 the school , the videotaped statements at the , uh,
12 police station, and then the final May 13
13 videotaped statement as a progression to the
14 fina l truth.
15 What we want you to consider , three
16 things, while you ' re wa tching these videotapes ,
17 and we agree, very powerful videotapes , very
18 important videotapes, but like i n a story, two
19 di fferent stories, there's a dif ferent
20 perspective, a d ifferent t heme . We want you to
21 look at t hree things . Corroboration . Simi l ar to

22 what the State offered. They want you to look at
23 wha t it corroborated .
24 We want you to also focus on what is not
25 corroborated . There are doz ens of details that
91
1 go uncorroborated in these statements.
2 Corroboration simply means that there's something
3 independent that can prove the statements are
4 true . Some other independent source that
5 suggests that what you heard is accurate . But
6 there are dozens of instances where their detai l s
7 are uncorroborated.
8 The second to consider is the
9 inconsistencies . There are a number of
10 inconsistencies throughout this progression of
11 statements. When you watch these statements ,
12 take note of the di fferent changes from one
13 statement to the next. Simple. Details that
14 seem to be mundane, unnecessary change from
15 statement to statement.
16 And though the State will try to pro --
17 to suggest that it's an escalating progression
18 from the first time they met with Brendan Dassey
19 to the last time he talked to them , it 's really a
20 rollercoaster ride of the truth. Up and down.
21 One statement says one thing, t h e next says the
22 other, and it just goes that way throughout this
23 progression .
24 Some of the changes are not logical.
25 Oftentimes, detached from the purpose of t he
92
1 investigation. Sometimes it's the product of the
2 interviewer . Watch for that as well when you're
3 watching these videos . Oftentimes, you'll hear
4 the investigators asking Brendan to simply change
5 what he said. They ask him to change what he
6 said to meet their theme, to meet the story t hat
7 they want to present.
8 And last, we want to ask you to watch
9 the video for , lack of a better term, the appeals
10 to emotions the officers make throughout the
11 different statements to Brendan. This
12 16-year-old low-educated -- or excuse me -- l ow
13 intellectual ability, low cognitive ability , shy
14 introvert, they're asking him, and they ' re --
15 they ' re appealing to emotion .
16 Watch how he answers the quest i ons.
17 Watch how the questions are asked. At times it
18 differs. Times they cozy up to Brendan to get
19 the answe r they want. At times they pull back
20 from Brendan when he's not giving them t he answe r
21 they they -- they -- they want and they
22 expect. It's like the new puppy dog. When he
23 does what he's supposed to do he gets a pat on
24 the head and a treat. Good job, Brendan. Good
25 job. Good boy. But when it's not what they
93
1 want , we're leaving Brendan, until you te ll us
2 what we want to hear.
3 I believe these statements are very
4 powerful , and I agree with t he State that you
5 need to take considerable effort to watch them .
6 Take notes. I encourage you , take notes . We've
7 seen these videos a number of times. You may
8 only get to see this one time . And I woul d
9 encourage you to take notes throughout . But not
10 just to what is said , take notes on how it's
11 said . How the questions are asked. How it goes
12 from , I didn ' t say that, or I don ' t know, to the
13 answer the police got that they wanted.
14 The facial expressions, the distance
15 between the interviewer , or the interrogato r, and
16 Brendan, the interaction, physically, between the
17 two. I believe that the -- when you watch the
18 videos carefully, they'll be exposed for what
19 they are , and I think they're just garbage. And
20 just like that, you can discard it .
21 You're -- be instructed by the Judge
22 later that you decide what and how much you want
23 to believe. It's entirely up to you.
24 Now, I think these three focal points of
25 the statements are important to note because the
94
1 State won ' t explain to you why there are
2 uncorroborated details , why there are so many
3 inconsistencies , but we will. We'll provide
4 testimony that shows , from his school , describes
5 him as having low cognitive functioning , memory
6 problems , um, fourth-grade reading level . Fails
7 to make eye contact with peers and adults, and
8 avoids part i cipation.
9 A forensic psychologist will also
10 testify, and testify as to tests that he
11 performed on Brendan that indicate that he's a
12 socially inept child , substantially impaired
13 cognitively. He has passive tendencies and
14 vulnerable to suggestion . Coupled wi th this
15 testimony and the videos, I believe we ' ll show
16 you how easily Brendan is manipulated and was
17 manipulated. Manipulated by the more
18 i ntelligent , readily trained, authoritative
19 figures, the two police officers, who presses me
20 when he says good things , things they want to
21 hear, and pull away and sternly isolate him when
22 he says things that they don't want to hear.
23 Despite these statements , the l ack of
24 scientific evidence to connect Brendan to Teresa
25 Halbach's murder, the volume of uncorroborated
95
1 details , the rollercoaster of changes in his
2 statements from one to another , the psychological
3 results in his psychological makeup, his
4 suggestible nature, will all be enough , we
5 believe , for you to find reasonable doubt.
6 And that ' s what this is about. As t he
7 Judge instructed you, you have to decide this
8 case based on what is reasonable doubt. And the
9 Judge will give you another instruction at the
10 end as well, not just before, but also before you
11 retire to make your final decision .
12 If , at the end, you walk into the jury
13 room and you considered all the evidence from all
14 the parties, give them whatever weight the
15 credibility of each witness , whatever weight you
16 wish to give, and you ' re able to say , well , the
17 State's case does make sense as well as the
18 defense, their case does make sense, you would
19 then have a reasonable doubt, and that's all
20 we're asking you to consider, and you must stop .
21 It ' s not a contest. This isn ' t a
22 competition. It's not a basketball game where
23 somebody has to show up and win at the end. You
24 don't have to reconcile the State's case with the
25 defense case . In fact, you shouldn ' t. That's
96
1 not your role. Your role isn't to decide i n --
2 in that situation who wins. You don't have to
3 reconcile doubt.
4 As the State attempts to prove beyond a
5 reasonable doubt the allegations against Brendan,
6 consider the number of times that we feel Brendan
7 was manipulated during his interrogation, and
8 we'll discuss that with the witnesses, and we'll
9 make further our observations at the e nd .
10 Consider all of the inconsistencies of
11 the various statements as they go from one to the
12 other. Consider the lies the police told Brendan
13 during his statements .
14 We believe, after careful considerat ion
15 of all this , in the end , there would be onl y one
16 conclusion you could write for this chapter in
17 this story, and tha t would be not guilty. Thank
18 you, very much .
20 ATTORNEY KRATZ: If we could approach
21 jus t briefly, Judge?
23 THE COURT: Al l right, uh -- All right.
24 We're going to adjourn and ta ke a lunch break.
25 We'll be b ack here at one o'clock. I ' ll remind the
97
1 jury, there 's no discussion of this case at this
2 time amongst -- amongst you. Uh, a ll right . One
3 o'clock.
4 (Jurors out at 11:40 a . m. )
5 THE COURT: All right. One o'clock.
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Will this courtroom
7 be locked during the lunch break?
8 THE COURT: Sure . I believe it is .
9 Yeah. Okay . It will be.
10 (Recess had at 11 :40 a.m.)
11 (Reconvened at 1:00 p.m.; jurors not
12 present.)
13 THE COURT: Counsel, I 'm informed that , uh,
14 one or both of you have something to put on the
15 record at this point?
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh, yes . Good
17 afternoon, Your Honor . The, uh, State would like
18 to take up one evidentiary matter as i t may
19 pertain to anticipated cross-examination on a
20 rule of evidence before the jury arrives. I'm
21 not sure if opposing counsel has anything they
22 wish to discuss .
23 THE COURT: Hearing none?
24 ATTORNEY FALLON : Hearing none, um, uh,
25 we noticed during the , um, opening statement, uh,
98
1 of the defense that there was reference to the,
2 uh, May 13 , uh , interview of, uh, the defendant ,
3 Mr. Dassey. Uh, we wanted to, uh, take time to

4 point out that , um, first of all, the State was
5 contemplating, if at all , use of that information
6 as part of its rebuttal case and , i n all

7 likelihood, would not be i ntroducing t hat
8 evidence in its case in chief.
9 Uh, as such, um, the law is quite c l ear
10 that those statements of the de fendant can onl y

11 be offered by the prosecution because then they
12 would be offered by a party opponent, and , uh ,
13 uh, as fur ther evidence in support of that

14 proposition, I would cite State v. Pepin,
15 110 Wis. 2d 431, and State v. Johnson,
16 181 Wis. 2d 470, for the proposition that t he

17 de fense would not be entitled to elicit that
18 information on cross-examination of an officer

19 unless and until the State introduces that
20 evidence first.
21 So we just wanted to make sure that
22 we're clear on the rules of evidence , because if
23 it were to be elicited by the defense, then it

24 would not be a statement of a party opponent , i t
25 would be elicited by the same party.
99
1 THE COURT : Mr. Fremgen or Mr . Edelstein ,
2 any response?
3 ATTORNEY EDELSTE IN : Your Honor , at this

4 time , uh , having heard the argument of Counsel , I
5 would ask the Court reserve any ruling on t hat
6 matter and allow us an opportunity to review the

7 authority cited by Counsel. Um, we did discuss
8 it very briefl y before court convened, uh , after
9 noon h ere .
10 We have not had the chance to review
11 that matter and , of course , the bas is of , uh ,
12 some of the State 's evidence , which they clearly
13 indicated they intend to introduce, i ncluding , in
14 their case in chief, not the l east of whi ch is
15 the May 13 telephone call so intricately tied to
16 that statement of May 13 , um , I think this needs
17 further e xamination before we can appropriately

18 respond to the State's , uh, anticipatory
19 objection .
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, uh , just two

21 minor points. Uh, we never mentioned anything
22 about any May 13 statement i n the opening
23 remarks, and, uh , number t wo, just so t he record

24 is clear, um, the objection right now, the
25 appropriate objection, to attempt at cross on
100
1 that would be a hearsay objection . So if the
2 Court chooses to defer rul ing until later, that's
3 fine, but we do have an officer taking the stand
4 later this afternoon so ...
5 THE COURT: Yeah. I -- I - - I wi ll defer
6 ruling, but it's my understanding, Mr. Edel stei n,

7 that the proposed -- or I shouldn't say the
8 proposed -- the statements of -- of the -- from t he
9 May 13 interview would be admissions by a party
10 opponents under 9-0-8 - 0-1 (4) (bl ), and, uh, it seems

11 to me, uh, you are precluded at this stage, at
12 least, from asking about them. Uh, again, we'l l
13 we'll flush this out a little later on but, uh, uh ,
14 if that's what you're asking

15 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, it
16 may -- it -- it -- I think it's going to depend

17 upon precisely what the officer testifies to . If
18 he goes anywhere near any statements that he
19 participated in , be they con -- characterized as
20 statements or confessions that involved our
21 client, I think irregardless of the date, t here

22 are certain areas that we have, particularly on
23 cross, urn, leeway to get into .

24 I don't know if that ' s the purpose of
25 any of his testimony here this afternoon, but if
101
1 he does go there, I would, uh , ask that -- that
2 we be notified in advance, or at least certainly
3 be given an opportunity prior to any cross, to
4 have this matter addressed by the Court,
5 including an opportunity to review the case as
6 cited by the State.
7 THE COURT: All right. Let 's proceed.
8 Mr. Kratz? We'll get the jury in here and we'll
9 get your witness.
10 (Jurors in at 1 :07 p.m.)
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State would call, uh,
12 Karen Halbach.
13 KAREN HALBACH,
15 sworn, was examined and testified as follows :
18 THE WITNESS: Karen Halbach, H-a-1 -b-a-c-h.
21 Q Good afternoon, Mrs . Halbach. Could you te l l
22 the -- the jury, please, uh, whether or not you
23 knew a young lady by the name of Teresa Halbach?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 Q You have to pull the microphone down nice and
102
1 close for us, please. Who was Teresa?
2 A She was my daughter. The second oldest in my family
3 of five children. Um, she's a very caring and very
4 loving young woman. She was very dedicated to her
5 family and friends . She was a hard worker. Um, she
6 had a great sense of humor. Uh, she was also the
7 life of the party.
8 Um, she, um -- She had an ability --
9 ability to make people smile , and I think that ' s
10 why she enjoyed photography, because kids r e ally
11 responded to her.
12 Q All right. You told me that, uh, there were
13 other, uh -- other children, um, in your family
14 as well. Could you identify them?
15 A Tim is the oldest, and then there ' s Teresa , and then
16 Mike, and then I have two younger girls, Katie and
17 Kelly.
18 Q Could you tell the jury, please, where Teresa
19 lived?
20 A She lived next door to -- to us. About a quarter
21 mile wes t of us. My husband and I own the farmhouse
22 and she lived there about a year before she died.
23 Q Going to hand you what's been marked for
24 identification as Exhibit No., um No. 1.
25 Could you tell the jury what that is, please?
103
1 A It's a picture of Teresa.
2 Q We ' ll be showing the jury , uh , photographs as
3 well . When you say that Teresa lived next door

4 to you , can you describe that a little further ,
5 please?
6 A Well, she lived a quarter mile west from us in a
7 farmhouse that we own . She her - - her rent was
8 going to go up. She wanted to live someplace cheaper
9 so I said , why don't you move closer to home, so we'd
10 really give you a deal on rent. So she took us up on
11 it and, you know , we enjoyed having her there.
12 Q All right . I know you mentioned briefly about
13 Teresa ' s background, but did she have , um , um,
14 post high school education?
15 A She went four years to UW-GB. She graduated in '02
16 Suma Cum Laude.
17 Q And GB , that's Green Bay?
18 A Right.
19 Q After that , I think you've already mentioned
20 briefly, of the kind of work that Teresa we nt
21 into, but can you describe that a little more
22 fully? What , uh - - what type of employment did
23 she have?
24 A In her final semester at GB , she , uh , started an
25 internship with Tom Pearce Photography in Green Bay,
104
1 and then after she graduated, she continued working
2 with him, and then she realized she wanted to own her
3 own business, so she decided -- she started
4 Photography by Teresa, and, uh, she also worked
5 part-time for AutoTrader Magazine.
6 Q All right. This , uh, photography studio, did she
7 have any areas of, uh, expertise wi t hin tha t
8 studio?
9 A Urn --
10 Q Any kind of, uh, portraits that she enjoyed more
11 than others taking pictures of?
12 A Well, she especially liked taking picture of kids.
13 She was good with kids. But she also did weddings,
14 graduation photos. Urn, if you had an event that you
15 wanted pictures taken, she would gladly do it for
16 you.
17 Q Mr. Wiegert's going to hand you what's now been
18 marked as Exhibit No. 2, if I'm able to do this .
19 Tell us what that is , please?
20 A It's, um , a picture of Teresa .
21 Q All right. Now, Teresa's photography business,
22 you said, also included working, uh, at least
23 part-time for AutoTrader Magazine. Um , what were
24 you aware of her duties with that magazine?
25 A It -- Just know people would call AutoTrader to have
105
1 pictures of their vehicles taken. And a photographer
2 would have a certain area. And then Teresa would
3 go -- When somebody in her area would want a picture
4 taken , she would set up a -- an appointment with them
5 and then go take the picture of the vehicle for them .
6 Q Would Teresa ever discuss or describe with you,
7 uh, where some of her clients were that she took
8 pictures of?
9 A Once in a while she would, yeah . If she was over and
10 talking about -- talking with us.
11 Q All right . Had you ever heard -- At least before
12 the 31st of October of '05, had you ever heard
13 the name Steven Avery?
14 A Yes , I did.
15 Q And Teresa, uh, did she ever mention being at
16 Mr. Avery's property before?
17 A Two times she had told me she had taken pictures at
18 the Avery Salvage Yard .
19 Q All right. Mrs. Halbach , were you familiar with
20 the kind of vehicle that , uh, Teresa drove?
21 A Yes, I was.
22 Q Could you describe t hat for the jury, please?
23 A It 's a Toyota RAV 4.
24 Q I 'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit No.
25 3. Can you tell us what that is , please?
106
1 A It's a picture of Teresa in front of her vehicle.
2 Q Before, um, moving into the investigation, um,

3 itself, you, I think, had mentioned that Teresa
4 had some younger sisters. Uh, could you tell me
5 their names, please?
6 A Katie and Kelly.

7 Q I'm sorry?
8 A Katie and Kelly.
9 Q How much younger were Katie and Kelly than she?

10 A Um, I think there ' s 11 years difference between Katie
11 and Teresa, and then Kelly's two years younger than
12 Katie.
13 Q And could you describe the kind of relationship
14 that Teresa had with her younger sisters?

15 A Um, they were very close . Teresa always wanted a
16 sister. And they spent a lot of time together

17 shopping or watching movies or ...
18 Q All right. Did Teresa spend, uh, time with her
19 sisters, um, at your home ever?
20 A Yeah, they did, and, um, Teresa would come over

21 Sunday nights a lot, because their three favorite
22 shows were on, so they'd watch it altogether and goof
23 off and ...

24 Q Al l right . Were Sunday nights kind of a , um --
25 a -- a family night or regular time for all of
107
1 you to get t oge t her?
2 A Right. The kids would always stop in on a Sunday
3 sometime during the day.
4 Q Karen, I ' m going to direct your attent ion to
5 Sunday, October 30 of 2005. Do you remembe r that
6 day?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Could you tel l the jury what you remember about
9 Sunday, the 30th of October?
10 A Um, my dad's birthday is October 31, Halloween, so
11 the day before, my whole family got together at his
12 house and we just celebrated his birthday during the
13 day.
14 Q Was Teresa in attendance at that party?
15 A Yes, s he was.
16 Q Were the rest of, uh, the siblings the r e as well?
18 Q What happened that night i f you recall?
19 A That night, um, we mi lked cows, and then Teresa came
20 home from -- about seve n, because Extreme Make over
21 Home Edition was coming on and she wanted to watch it
22 with the girls .
23 Q She was at your house?

24 A Right. At our hous e .
25 Q All right . Do you know a bout what time Teresa
108
1 left your home on the 30th?
2 A I would say it was after ten .
3 Q Um, did you know what Te r esa's, um, work schedule
4 was the next day? That is , t he 31st?
5 A No, I did not .
6 Q How often during the week would you speak with

7 your daughter, Teresa?
8 A She might stop in once or twice, or c a l l, depends on
9 how busy she was, or if we were busy on the farm, you

10 know.
11 Q On the 31st of October, 20 05 how old was Teresa?
12 A Twenty-five.
13 Q Had Teresa ever been married?
14 A No .
15 Q And at that time, t hat is , on the 31st of
16 October, 2005 was Teresa involved in a
17 relationship? Did she have a boyfriend or
18 anything?
19 A No.
20 Q Mrs. Halbach, when was the first time that you

21 had heard that Teresa was mis sing?
22 A On Thursday, November 3, about one o'clock, Tom
23 Pearce called me and he was concerned about Te resa

24 because s he hadn't showed up at t he studio Tuesday or
25 Wednesday, and -- because she always stopped in at
10 9
1 least once a day, even if she wasn't really busy that
2 day. But he said what what -- what real ly worried
3 him was that her cell phone, her voice mail, was
4 full . He got a message saying that, and that was
5 very unusual for Teresa becaus e that was her business
6 phone als -- also, and for her not to return

7 somebody's message was a very odd -- so that worried
8 me too.
9 Q Do you know what kind of, uh, cell phone Teresa

10 had?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q Tell the jury , please?
13 A She had a Motorola RAZR V3 or something like that .
14 Q I 'm going to hand you what has been marked for

15 identification as Exhibit No. 8. Tell the jury
16 what that is, please?

17 A It's a receipt for her cell phone.
18 Q And do you know if that receipt has a date on it?
19 That is, when she purchased her Motorola RAZR
20 cell phone?
21 A Yes. It says August 30, 2005.

22 Q I'm going to show you, also, what's been marked
23 as Exhibit No. 9. I'm going to have you turn to

24 the las t page of that exhibit and ask if you, urn ,
25 can identify this as the cell phone, urn, provider
11 0
1 contract with a Cingular phone?
2 A Yes, it is.
3 Q Does that incl ude And, by the way, is that the
4 same date of October 30 , 2005?
5 A Yes , it is.
6 Q And does it include the make and model of her

7 phone towards the bottom? That is , a, uh,
8 Motorola V3 --
9 A Yes , it does.
10 Q -- phone? Mrs. Halbach , on the 3rd of November,

11 after being informed by Teresa's business partner
12 that, uh, she was missing, could you tell the
13 j ury what, uh, you, uh, and other family members
14 did?
15 A Um, I called Teresa's two brothers , Tim and Mike, to
16 ask if they had heard from her. They said, no. And
17 I told them about Tom Pearce calling me, so they got
18 worried, too . And then, um, they started call i ng
19 people around . And in the meantime , my husband was
20 out plowing in a field , I went and brought him home
21 and I said, we need to look for Teresa to f i nd out
22 where she is. And then, um, he went and -- Teresa
23 had a roommate . He went and talked to the roommate,

24 asked if he saw -- if he had seen her in the last
25 three days. And while he did that , I called
111
1 AutoTrader Magazine to see if -- when the last time
2 they had heard from her, and I didn't get an answer
3 right away , so then I called the Calumet Count y
4 Sheriff's Department .
5 Q Were there other citizens -- not only family
6 members but other citizens -- uh, even on that
7 first day , even on the 3rd, that were trying to
8 help locate Teresa?
9 A Right . We called Teresa ' s friends, or Tim and Mike
10 started , and they, in turn, called other people . We
11 had a lot of people looking for her by phone.
12 Q Were you able, even on t hat first day, even on
13 the 3rd of , uh, November , to try to retrace her
14 steps from when she was last seen? That is, on
15 the 31st of October?
16 A Yes . Mike -- my son, Mike, was able to get into
17 Teresa ' s cell phone records, and he knew that she
18 I'm not sure how to say it or - -
19 Q Just go ahead.
20 A He knew that she hadn ' t looked at her messages or
21 where her -- when she -- when her last call was, and
22 that wa s on Monday, so he knew that was odd . So we
23 knew something was up so we kept looking for her .
24 Q All right . The fact that Teresa hadn't retrieved
25 her voice mail messages since the 31st, um,
112
1 obviously that worried you?
2 A Right.
3 Q Were you able, or were you , with the assistance
4 of your sons , able to determine the last stops or
5 the last places that Teresa was on the 31st?
6 A Um , I know the boys knew where her last stops were on

7 the 31st , but I ' m not sure how they found that out .
8 Q Okay . Do you know if they were u sing cell phone
9 records to try to retrace her steps on the
10 31st?
11 A They were doing that , yes .
12 Q Were you to l d and did you have any discussions
13 with them that , uh , her last appointment that
14 afternoon, that is the 31st , was with , um, Steven
15 Avery, or at least with that property?
16 A Yes, I was.
17 Q Mrs. Halbach , between the 3rd of November and the
18 4th of November , did you work with any outside
19 agencies in trying to search for Teresa? In
20 other words , did you work to develop any missing

21 person posters?
22 A Yes , we did .
23 Q Can you describe that process for us, please?
24 A On Thursday night Jay Breyer called us . He works
25 with Y.E.S ., Youth Educated in Safety. And helped us
113
1 put together a missing person poster for Teresa .
2 Q Have you look at t he back of that exhibit that
3 I 1 ve given you . Wha t number is t hat?
4 A Fi ve.
5 Q Exhibit No. 5 , can you tell us what that is ,
6 please?
7 A This is Te r esa ' s missing person poster .
8 Q All right . On the 3rd, and especially on the
9 4th , of November , do you recall citizens, um ,
10 distributing thousands of these posters
11 throughout Northeast Wisconsin?
12 A Right . Yes , we did . That was mainly what we did on
13 Friday , was distribute posters .
14 Q Do you remember what other efforts citizens, that
15 is, f amily members and other citizens, engaged
16 in, uh , t hat Friday? We ' re talking Friday, the
17 4th?
18 A Urn, my understanding -- I stayed home with our two
19 younger daughters , but they would hand out posters ,
20 but they ' d also keep their eyes open alongside of the
21 road, you know , in case she had an accident or, um
22 I believe they - - if - - they thought she went to
23 Green Bay and back and had an accident, they fo llowed
24 them roads , looked in the ditches.
25 Q All right. Were you aware that law enforcement,
114
1 that is, the police departments, um, were also
2 performing aerial, that is, uh, airplane
3 searches?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Um, was, uh, Teresa or her vehicle found either
6 that Thursday or that Friday?
7 A No.
8 Q Tell us, then , what the, urn , family and friends
9 of Teresa planned for Saturday, the 5th of
10 November?
11 A Teresa had a good friend, urn, Ryan Hillegas, and he
12 got a group of people together at Teresa's house, and
13 they organized searches in the area in Manitowoc
14 County where she was last seen, or her last three
15 appointments on Monday, so they wanted to search them
16 areas for sure , and they searched all along roadways,
17 under bridges. You know, our main thought was she
18 had -- had a car accident , and, um, I think that's
19 what they focused on.
20 Q You had mentioned that, uh , your, um, husband and

21 you had, um, milked cows at least during one of
22 the -- the days . Could you describe whether or
23 not that's the family business? That's what you

24 guys do?
25 A That's what we do, yeah. We ' re dairy farmers.
115
1 Q On Saturday, the 5th of November , um, were you
2 aware of a young, uh, woman, um -- actually two
3 women, um, Pam and Nikole Sturm being involved in
4 the search efforts?
5 A Yes, I was .
6 Q Could you tell the jury who is Pam Sturm?

7 A Pam Sturm is my husband ' s first cousin .
8 Q All right . And do you know where Ms . Sturm and
9 her daughter , Nikole, were searching?
10 A Um, they had asked Ryan Hillegas if, um , anybody was
11 searching the Avery Salvage Yard. He didn't think so

12 though . So she said her and her daughter were going
13 to go search the junkyard .
14 Q All right . I know this is difficult, Ms., uh --

15 Ms. Halbach, but later that day did you receive
16 any news?
17 A Pam and Nikole stopped at our house later in the day
18 and told us that they had found Teresa's vehicle.
19 Q Were you asked at all to either identify , um, the
20 vehicle or, uh, to further assist in law

21 enforcement efforts that day? That is , Saturday?
22 A Yes, I was.
23 Q And what did you do Saturday, if you remember?

24 A Um, I think Investigator Wiegert -- Wiegert called me
25 after he was in contact with Pam Sturm and he asked
116
1 me if Teresa ' s RAV 4 had a Lem - - LeMieux Toyota
2 sticker on it.
3 Q If her what? I'm sorry.
4 A If her RAV 4 had a LeMieux Toyota sticker on it.
5 Q Her vehicle?
6 A Yeah .
7 Q All right. What is a LeMieux Toyota sticker?
8 A That's where she bought it. In Green Bay.
9 Q All right. Do you know if you were able to
10 assist them in that?
11 A I didn't know for sure, but I knew Mike did , so I
12 called Mike and asked him , and Mike called me back
13 or -- or he said, yes, it did, and then I told
14 Mr. Wiegert it did.
15 Q All right . What's the next you heard from law
16 enforcement?
17 A I ~- I draw a blank. I can't think.
18 Q Okay. Urn, how often was it that law enforcement
19 was contacting you or keeping you informed about
20 the investigation?
21 A Very often. They kept us well-informed.
22 Q Let me just ask you, Mrs. Halbach, uh, we'll get
23 into some other, um, easier areas, but, uh,

24 within the next day or two, uh, were you informed
25 that human, uh, remains were found that they
117
1 believed to be your daughter Teresa?
2 A Right . Yeah.
3 Q Do you remember when you were tol d t hat?

4 A I think we knew human remains were found Tuesday , but
5 I think on Wednesday , the 9th , we were told that they
6 were identified as Teresa ' s .

7 Q All right . Mr s . Halbach , were you aware of a ,
8 um -- a camera, a digital camera , that your
9 daughter had provided to her by AutoTrader
10 Magazine to take pictures of her cars at least

11 for that part of her job?
12 A Yes .
13 Q I'm going to show you what ' s been marked as
14 Exhibit No . 6, ask if you can tell the jury what
15 that is , please?
16 A It ' s the box for the digital camera .
17 Q Now , Exhibi t No . 6 ind icates a, um, PowerShot
18 A3 10 by Canon . Do you know, um, where this box
19 was loca ted?
20 A In Teresa's house .
21 Q Teresa tend to keep boxes and receipts and things

22 like t hat?
23 A Yep , she did that .

24 Q Kind of a pack rat?
25 A Well , I -- I call it organized.
118
1 Q Okay . Were you aware of a , urn -- a personal , urn,
2 data assistance , something called a PDA, that,
3 uh, Teresa also owned?
4 A Yes, she had one of them .
5 Q I show you what 1 s been marked, uh, for
6 identification as Exhibit No . 7. Tell us what
7 that is, please?
8 A It's the box for her PDA.
9 Q And as long as Mr. Wiegert's up, I'm going to

10 also give you Exhibit No. 10. Tell us what that
11 is , please?
12 A It's a receipt for PDA that she bought a t Target
13 November 15, 2004 .
14 Q Now , PDA , at least the most common version is , or

15 sometimes it's called a Palm Pilot , do you know
16 what these things do?
17 A I think you can put your appointments in it, your
18 schedules , that type of thing.

19 Q All right. And the Palm Zire 31 brand, uh, the
20 box that we're looking at, um, uh, in the Exhibit

21 that you've just identified, um, was that, again,
22 found in Teresa's apartment?
23 A Yes , it was.
24 Q Just a couple more questions , Mrs. Halbach. The
25 investigation, urn, into Teresa's disappearance
119
1 and her death, uh, required DNA samples being
2 provided. Were you asked for one of t ho se?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And do you know, um - - Do you know about when you
5 had to give a DNA sample to compare with some of
6 the , um, materials that were
7 A I would -- I think it was in the spring.
8 Q All right. But you did provide a -- a -- a
9 sample of I think it was your saliva; is that
10 right?
11 A Right.
12 Q The last ques tion -- last, uh , difficult question
13 I have for you, Mrs. Halbach, is at anytime a fte r
14 the 30th of October, that evening after 10 :0 0 on
15 the 30th of October, 2005 , uh, had you ever seen
16 or heard from your daughter, Teresa Halbach?
17 A No, I did not.
18 ATTORNEY KRATZ: At this time , Judge , I
19 would move the admissions of Exhibit 1 through 10 .
20 THE COURT : Any objection?
21 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: What was 8 and 9?
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ: The two receipts and the
23 contract.
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No objection .
25 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz, did you -- did you
120
1 introduce an Exhibit 4?
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That was, uh --
3 Q (By Attorney Kra tz ) I did show you . That was
4 the, uh - - it was a photo of your family. Do you
5 still have it up there?
6 A No, I gave it back.
7 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Oh . Mr. Wiegert, let 's
8 put it up there.
9 Q (By Attorney Kratz) We were talking about your
10 family, and I'll show you Exhibit No. 4.
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I apologize, Your
12 Honor .
13 Q (By Attorney Kratz) I'm showing you Exhibit No.
14 4. Tell us what this is, please?
15 A It's a family picture that our daughter, Teresa, set
16 up. She didn't take the picture, because she was --
17 she's in it, but she set it up.
18 Q Uh, timers --
19 A Uh, no. Mike's girlfriend took the picture. She
20 snapped it .
21 Q She just set it up. Can you identify just , uh,
22 briefly for us the people in this picture?
23 A Um, from left to right in the back row is my husband
24 Tom, and then there ' s Katie and Ke lly, and in the
25 fro n t row is Tim, and then mys elf , and Mike holding
121
1 our dog , and Teresa's on the end on the right .
2 Q Al l right.
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: With that, and with
4 that offer, J udge , that 's al l the questions I
5 have of this witness . Thank you.
6 THE COURT: Any ob jection ?
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, J udge.
8 THE COURT: All right. They're received.
9 Cross?
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I just have a fe w
11 questions.
14 Q Prior to November 5 , 2005 , have you ever heard of
15 t h e name Brendan Dassey?
16 A No , I don't think I did.
17 Q Had Teresa Ha lbach ever mentioned -- Teresa, your
18 daughter, obvious l y -- ever mentioned anything
19 about a Brendan Dassey? You mentioned she had
20 mentioned Steven Avery's name before ; correct?
21 A Right.
22 Q Had Brenda n's name ever been ment ioned by her?
23 A No.
24 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay . Nothing else .
122
1 ATTORNEY KRATZ: No. Thank you , Judge.
2 THE COURT: You ma y step down.
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State will call Katie
4 Halbach to the stand .
5 THE CLERK : Please raise your right
6 hand.
7 KATIE HALBACH,
9 sworn , was examined and t estified as f ollows:
10 THE CLERK : Please be seated . Please state
11 your name and spell your last name for t he reco rd .
12 THE WITNESS: Katie Halbach,
13 H-a-1-b-a-c-h .
15 BY ATTORNEY KRATZ :
16 Q Hi, Katie. How old are you?
17 A I 'm 1 5 .
18 Q Could you tell u s , please, who Teresa Halbach
19 was?
20 A She is my sister .
21 Q And was Teresa o lder or younger than you?
22 A She was older than me.
23 Q How much older?
24 A Eleven years .
25 Q Now, some sisters are closer than others . Could
123
1 you describe how close you were to Teresa and
2 what kinds of things you used to do together?
3 A Um, we were pretty close. We would -- Well , me and
4 my little sister would go over to Teresa's house,
5 sleep ove r, or we would go shopping , or things like
6 that.
7 Q All right. What kind of things would you shop
8 for?
9 A Um, clothes , mostly.
10 Q Do you know where Teresa did, uh, most of her
11 shopping? Or was it all over?
12 A Um, it was all over pretty much.
13 Q Teresa ever shop at a department store called
14 Kohl's?
15 A Yes , she did.
16 Q Katie , were you the closest in age, at l east, uh ,
17 female sibling, the closest to Teresa?
18 A I am .
19 Q And your other sister is younger; is that
20 correct?
21 A Yep .
22 Q By the way, would you, um, do other recreational
23 kinds of things with Teresa?

24 A Um, I guess like we would She would take us t o
25 parks and we would go for wa l ks and things like that .
124
1 Q Was Teresa involved in coaching any sports?
2 A Yes. She coached my little sister's volleyball team.
3 Q Okay. And would you ever go watch those games or
4 anything?
5 A I did.
6 Q I'm going to show you what has been marked as
7 Exhibit No. 11. Can you tell us wha t that is ,
8 please?
9 A This is a picture of the volleyball team that she
10 coached.
11 Q And who is she?
12 A My sister, Teresa.
13 Q Is she in that picture?
14 A Yep. She is in the back row, first person on the
15 l eft.
16 Q All right. I think you had mentioned, Katie,
17 that, um, after shopping with, uh, your sister,
18 um, it wasn't unusual f or you guys to buy some
19 clothes together; is that right?
20 A Yep.
21 Q Had you ever purchased or gone with Teresa, uh,
22 and purchased any specific articles of clothing
23 like jeans or anything like that?
24 A We would.
25 Q As her closest sister, at least closest in age ,
125
1 uh, I know we talked about clothes, generally,
2 but you were you aware of the jeans that she
3 owned?
4 A I know most of them.
5 Q Do you know and can you tell the jury, please,
6 what kind of jeans your sister owned?

7 A I know of a pair of Daisy Fuentes jeans she had.
8 Q Okay. Let's j us t start with those. What are
9 Daisy Fuentes jeans?
10 A Um, it 's a brand name of jeans that is normally found
11 at Kohl ' s .
12 Q Okay. How is it that you remember the Daisy
13 Fuentes jeans?
14 A Um, one day I noticed that she was wea ring them and I
15 told her that Daisy Fuentes was an old person so she
16 was wearing old people ' s jeans.
17 Q Okay. At some point , Katie, had you, um, been
18 told that your sister, Teresa , had been killed?
19 A Yes.
20 Q After, um, Teresa 's death, were you asked to go
21 to her , um, apartment , her residence, and look
22 through some of her clothing?
23 A Yes.
24 Q When you looked through your sister's clothing ,
25 were you able to find those Daisy Fuentes jeans
126
1 that you teased her about?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q Mr. Wiegert's handed you a pair of, uh of
4 jeans with an exhibit sticker on them. I think
5 it's a gray or a blue sticker. Can you tell me
6 what exhibit number that is?
7 A Exhibit 13 .
8 Q And have you ever seen those jeans before?
9 A Yes , I have .
10 Q What is Exhibit No . 13?
11 A Um, it's a pair of jeans that I picked out at Kohl's

12 one time that I thought were similar to the jeans
13 that Teresa owned.
14 Q Did a law enforcement officer or officers take
15 you on a -- a shopping trip and have you f i nd the
16 jeans that your sister used to own?
17 A Yes . I went with Mr. Fassbender .
18 Q Okay . If you can hold up Exhibit No. 13 and show
19 the jury, please , um, what kind of jeans are
20 those?
21 A They are Daisy Fuentes jeans.
22 Q And are those jeans , uh , at least to the best
23 that you were able to determine , uh, the same or
24 similar jeans that your s is ter had owned prior to
25 her death on the 31st of October?
127
1 A They are.
2 Q You know what a rivet is on a jean?
3 A Um, I believe it is one of these little buttons that
4 holds the jeans together.
5 Q Okay. And those rivets on those jeans , do they
6 say anything on them?
7 A They say "Daisy Fuentes".
8 Q I 'm going to have you give those jeans back to
9 Mr. Wiegert at this time . I'm going to have
10 Mr. Wiegert take them over to the ELMO machine
11 and see if we can show the jury what we're
12 talking about . Just as he's doing that, those
13 little brass buttons, or those, um, little
14 things , are those the rivets that you were
15 talking about?
16 A Yes.
17 Q When Mr . Wiegert zooms in, it looks like that ' s
18 as far as it zooms in , the little black lettering
19 that goes around the rivet, um, since you've seen
20 it, and we have a hard time seeing it, t hat says
21 "Daisy Fuentes"; is that right?
22 A Yes .
23 Q Katie, do you know what a lanyard is?
24 A I believe it ' s one of those key chain things you p ut
25 with your keys that you can wear around your n e ck .
128
1 Q Okay. And do you know if you ever gave your
2 sister, Teresa , a , uh, key chain thing, a
3 lanyard, for around her neck?
4 A I did .
5 Q Mr. Wiegert is going to have another exhibit
6 marked for you, and we're going to show you, I'm
7 sure, what will be Exhibit No . 14.
8 Q Tell the jury what that is, please?
9 A It is a blue lanyard that says "Air National Gu ard".
10 Q Do you recognize Exhibit No. 14?
11 A Yes . It is the lanyard that I gave Teresa.
12 Q And do you remember where you got that and where
13 you when you gave it to Teresa?
14 A It was two summers ago. I was at the EAA Convention,
15 and there was a booth, and they were g i ving away free
16 lanyards.
17 Q Now, that particular lanyard, if you can hold it
18 up for the jury so that they can see what you're
19 talking about , it's got a plastic thing on the
20 end of it. Can you show them that? That p l astic
21 end to the lanyard, do you know what that goes
22 into?
23 A Um, a fob .
24 Q All right. And can you tell the jury what a fob
25 is , if you know?
129
1 A Um, it's another piece of cloth , the same color , and
2 then it's connected to a key chain.
3 Q To help the jury, I'm going to show you Exhibit
4 No. 12 , which is a photograph. Ask if you have
5 seen that before?
6 A Yes , it's the same lanyard .
7 Q And does Exhibit No. 12, that is, the photograph,
8 include the key part of it, that is , the fob that
9 clicks in or goes into that particular key cha in?
10 A It does .
11 Q Does that key chain and that fob depicted in
12 Exhibit No. 12 look the same or similar as the
13 key chain and, uh , fob, or l anyard and fob, that
14 you gave to your sister a couple of summers ago?
15 A I t does .
16 Q Do you know whether or not your sister ever used
17 that key chain and -- and, uh, um, that lanya rd
18 and fob?
19 A She did.
20 Q How do you know that?
21 A Because before I gave her the lanyard she had a
22 different one and then I remember her switching them.
23 Q Okay. Katie, on Sunday nights did your sister,
24 Teresa , and you make a habit of watching some
25 television shows together?
130
1 A We did.
2 Q Where would you guys usually watch those shows
3 together?
4 A Either at our house or hers.
5 Q All right. Do you remember the day before she
6 was killed, that is , on the 30th of October, if

7 you and Teresa and your other sister spent that
8 night together and watched those shows together?
9 A Um, I believe we were at my grandpa's house for his
10 birthday .
11 Q All right. You remember that birthday party that
12 night?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q Or t h at day at least?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q And the same question that I asked of your mom,

17 after the 30th of October, had you ever seen or
18 heard from your sister, Teresa?
19 A I did not .
20 Q Last question for you. Um, do you know what kind
21 of soda that , uh , your sister , Teresa, used to
22 drink? Did she have a brand of soda she liked?
23 A Um, she likes cherry sodas a lot.

24 Q Do you know if she liked Wild Cherry Pepsi brand
25 soda?
131
1 A She did.
2 Q That 's all I 've got, Katie. Thank you.
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge , I wou ld move the
4 admission o f -- Uh , Berta , I 'm sorry .
5 THE CLERK : Um --
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Elev en through fourteen?
7 THE CLERK : Eleven, twelve and thirteen.
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ: And 14 .
9 THE COURT: And 14 .
10 THE CLERK: And 14.
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Eleven through fourteen,
12 J udge.
13 THE COURT: Any objection, Counsel?
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I would like to be heard
15 on 13 .
16 THE COURT: Uh --
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No objection to 11 ,
18 12 and 14.
19 THE COURT : Okay. Eleven, t welve a nd
20 fourteen are received . You want to be heard outside
21 the presence of the j u ry or here?
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Uh, at a break we can
23 ta ke that up.
24 THE COURT : Okay . Cross?
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, sir. Thank you .
132
1 THE COURT: All right. You may step down .
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: May we just have a brief
3 sidebar, Judge?
4 THE COURT : Su re .
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State would call Tom
7 Fassbender to the stand.
8 THOMAS FASSBENDER,
9 called as a witness herein , having been first duly
10 sworn, was examined and testified as follo ws:
12 your name and spell your last name for t he record .
13 THE WITNESS : Thomas J. Fassbender,
14 F-a-s-s-b-e-n-d-e-r.
17 Q Mr . Fassbende r, could you tell us how you ' re
18 employed, please?
19 A Yes . I ' m a special agent with the Wisconsin
20 Department of Justice , Division of Criminal
21 Investigation, DCI .
22 Q What are your duties with DCI?
23 A Uh, currently I investigate , uh , crimes, such as
24 homicide, uh , or crimes that are statewide importance
25 in nature, and I 'm a part of what we call a General
133
1 Investigations Bureau.
2 Q Could you speak up just a little bit? I 'd
3 appreciate it. Were you employed in that

4 capacity on November 5 of 2005?
5 A Yes, I was.
6 Q And on November 5 of 2005 , uh, were you called to

7 a location which has been come to known as the
8 Avery salvage property?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q How is it that you got called to that location?
11 A I was called by my supervisor , who, uh, informed me
12 that the Calumet County Sheriff had asked for DCI's
13 assistance at that location, and it had to do with,
14 uh, an investigation into a missing person, which was

15 Teresa Halbach.
16 Q Tell the jury, if you would, please, about what

17 time, um, you got to that location?
18 A I arrived at, uh , that location, which was the Avery
19 Salvage Yard, just a little after 2 p.m. that
20 afternoon.
21 Q Tell the jury, please, what, if anything , you
22 observed upon your arrival at that salvage yard?
23 A When I arrived at the salvage yard , um -- salvage

24 yard is located at the end of a road named Avery
25 Road , and at the end of that road, uh, there was a --
134
1 a law enforcement presence set up there. Kind of
2 like I guess what you would called a command post,
3 and met with, um, members of law enforcement there,
4 uh , to include the sheriff of Calumet County.
5 Uh, received a -- a real brief , uh,
6 briefing at that time, and , uh , subsequently went

7 down into an area known as the -- the salvage
8 yard where the -- the salvaged vehicles were
9 maintained, and there was another, uh, law
10 enforcement presence down there, uh, so to speak,
11 like a checkpoint, um, and -- and it was from
12 t hat location that I was shown where a vehicle
13 Teresa's vehicle, had been located.
14 Q I don't know if you told us, but, uh, who also
15 was there when you got there?
16 A Well, for certain, uh, the Calumet County Sheriff
17 Jerry Pagel was there , and other law enforcement
18 officers, to include officers from, uh , the Mani towoc
19 County Sheriff ' s Department and Calumet County
20 Sheriff's Department.
21 Q After your arrival , uh, was there any discussion
22 regarding what role, if any , the Wisconsin
23 Department of Justice would take in the
24 investigation?
25 A Yes . Uh, as I mentioned, Sheriff Pagel had r e quested
135
1 DCI ' s assistance. Urn, wit h that being said , I
2 lea rned t hat, urn, the Ma nitowoc County Sheriff's

3 Depart ment had requested the Calumet County
4 Sheriff -- Sheriff ' s Department to take the lead role
5 in the investigation, and , uh , with that, they
6 Sheriff Pagel requested DCI ' s assistance . So , in

7 essence , we were there, uh, to assist in the
8 investigation, and , ultimate l y , I was asked, uh, to
9 join Investigator Mark Wiegert as a lead investigator

10 in the investigation .
11 Q Is it unusual, Agent Fassbender , for DCI to
12 become involved in major crime investigations ?
13 A No , that's not unusual.
14 Q After your arrival at the , um, scene , urn, were

15 you able to survey , if you will , the , uh -- the
16 property , itself?
17 A Yes .
18 Q And I ' ve handed you or had handed to you an
19 exhibi t . Can you tell us -- I think it ' s Exhibit
20 No . 15 . Tell us what that is , please?

21 A This is Exhibi t 15 , and this is an aerial photograph
22 overview of , uh, the Avery Sal vage Yard, inc luding
23 res i dences , um, on or around that property .

24 Q I ' ve had Mr . Wiegert ha nd you a laser pointer.
25 And , actually , we ' ll be using the large screen to
136
1 my right , although I'm sure the jurors can see
2 with the smaller screens as well .
3 Uh , if you'd be so kind as t o refer to
4 Exhibit No . 15 and show the -- and describe for
5 the , uh , jurors the major landmarks of the Avery
6 salvage property.
7 A As I mentioned bef ore, uh, this road right here
8 r unning north and south is Avery Road . As you come
9 south on Avery Road to this intersection right here ,
10 to the west , or to your right if you ' re going south,
11 is a driveway, essentially , that goes all the way
12 down to two residences . There ' s a trailer at the end
13 right down here. That i s , uh, the residence or the
14 trailer where Steven Avery resided . Uh, t here's a,
15 um, unattache d garage there also.
16 The residence just to the east of Steven
17 Avery ' s r esidence , uh , is the residence of
18 Barbara Tadych . Uh , at that time it's Barbara
19 Janda . And that , uh , is the residence that, um,
20 Mr. Das -- Dassey, uh , resided in . Brendan
21 Dassey .
22 Uh , there ' s an abandoned trailer right
23 there along this driveway . Going back to the
24 intersection at the end of Avery Road, uh , is
25 where the auto salvage business is essentially
137
1 located, as well as several other -- or two other
2 residences.
3 Uh, this building right here, this large
4 building, is where the au -- auto salvage office
5 and , uh, workshop was located. There's an
6 impound area right in here that has three
7 buildings associated with it. That 's an old
8 office, I believe, and shop area.
9 And right here's the residence of , uh,
10 Al and Delores Avery, or Mr . and Mrs. Avery ,
11 Steven Avery's father.
12 Uh, if you go -- continue south when you
13 get to this intersection -- And, by the way, this
14 is where that conunand post would have been set
15 up, that law enforcement presence that I was
16 talking about.
17 If you continue south, there's another
18 residence located right i n this area, which is
19 Chuck Avery's residence , which would be Steven
20 Avery's brother.
21 And then cont inuing south , you go down
22 into what was conunonly referred to as the, uh ,
23 salvage yard, or the pit, and that was, uh,
24 called that , I believe, because it used to be an
25 old quarry, uh, area, similar to the quarries
138
1 that are located around the salvage yard . So you
2 go down -- uh , descent into this area where all
3 the v eh icles are located, uh, into t he, uh,

4 salvage yard area .
5 Q So that the jury has a , um a better
6 understanding of , uh, some of the , um - - the

7 areas, I 'm goi ng to show you , first , what has
8 b een marked as Exhibit No . 16. Tell us what this
9 is , please?
10 A That would be t he northwest corner of the salvage
11 yard . And I had mentioned , uh, Steve Avery ' s and
12 Brendan Dassey 's residences. Righ t here is the
13 tra i ler that Steven Avery resided i n and his
14 unattached garage.
15 Uh , that ' s that driveway I was talki ng
16 about coming to that location, and this is the,

17 uh - - right here I ' m pointing at the northwest
18 corner of the entire, um, Avery properties.

19 Next , or just to the east , of Steven
20 Avery ' s residence is Brendan Dassey ' s , uh,

21 residence, or where he resided, his unatta ched
22 garage, a l so, which woul d make up, a nd t hen the
23 surrounding, uh , curtilage or yards of both , uh,

24 residences .
25 Q One of the other corners of the property I ' m now
139
1 showing you as Exhibit No. 17, tell us what that
2 is, please?
3 A This would be the southeast corner of the, uh, Avery
4 Salvage Yard. Urn, you can see that berms, or
5 possibly see that berms, are built up around these
6 areas . Uh, to the south of t hat is -- is a -- a
7 quarry, a privately owned quarry, Radandt Quar ry , and
8 to the east of that is a field field area.
9 Uh , so -- And you can see the salvaged
10 vehicles here, some salvage vehicles lined up
11 along there , a retention pond there, and also a
12 automobile crusher located right there, which is,
13 again, in this photo , whi ch would be the lower
14 right-hand area of the photo.
15 Q Now, this particular corner of the salvage
16 property , I think you mentioned whe n you first
17 arrived, uh, on the property you had concentrated
18 on this area; is that -- is that a correct
19 statement?
20 A That ' s correct.
21 Q Can you tell the jury why? What you saw?
22 A I was sent down to this area , and there was a staging
23 right -- oh, somewhere right in this area, uh, law
24 enforcement vehicles, uh, like I said, what could be
25 considered a checkpoint. Um, beyond t ha t is where I
140
1 was told that , um, Teresa ' s RAV 4 vehicle had been
2 found , a nd I was pointed to an area right there.
3 There ' s a -- a r ed vehicl e right there t ha t' s offset
4 from the other line of vehicles , and the RAV 4 was
5 located right in that area , and in this photograph it
6 is not there . I t had been removed already.

7 Q The last exhi bit, um, I think that I've given you
8 so far , is Exhibi t No. 18 , a nd you talked about a
9 command post. I show you Exhibit No. 18 , and

10 tell the jury wha we ' re looking at , please?
11 A This is Avery Road that I ' m pointing to right now
12 starting in the , uh , lower right- hand corner on this
13 photograph . And as you reach where the command post
14 was, which was right there , and right here there's
15 some command post vehicles, is the northeast corner
16 of the Avery Salvage Yard. Um , I mentioned some of
17 the the, uh, buildings here . This is the office
18 and shop area to the Avery Salvage Yard . This big ,
19 red bui lding is another work
20 Q I can zoom out a little bit. I ' m sorry.

21 A -- work area, I think , associated with the , um,
22 impound area . The old shop and service area, I
23 believe , and then right in here is, uh, Al and

24 Delores' hous e , a nd I can ' t quite see it in here,
25 but , uh, Chuck Avery ' s house is right in there .
141
1 Q Now, I know that you, uh, at least briefly ,
2 talked about a command center or a command post .
3 Um, let me just skip ahead so t hat the j ury knows

4 whe re we're go i ng. How long was it that law
5 e nforcement had control of this 40-acre property?
6 A Well , beginning on -- on , uh, November 5 at

7 approximately 11 a.m., uh, law enforcement offer
8 or arrived on t ha t p roperty, uh, in response to a
9 call t hat Teresa Halbach 's vehicle may have been
10 found there, and from that point on, through
11 approximately 11 : 30 on Saturday, November 12 , uh, we
12 mai ntained a presence and held that property .
13 Q So a full week?
14 A Yes .
15 Q With i n the , um, pit area , I guess , the -- what
16 would be to the, um, south and wes t of t he
17 command cent er , um , you may not ice some vehicles .
18 Can you describe those vehicles for us, please?
19 And , by the way, what exhibit is it that you're
20 looking at?
21 A I 'm currently l oo king at Exhibit 19.
22 Q And is what's up on the screen a , uh, depiction
23 of Exhibit 19?
24 A Yes , it is .
25 Q Tell us what that is , please?
142
1 A Basically, we -- uh , we're looki ng toward the
2 southwest, urn, from the, um, north side of the
3 property . And as I mentioned, uh, the salvage area,

4 or the -- the junkyard area, goes down into a pit, so
5 we ' re standing up on the elevation part , I believe ,
6 to the rear of and I ' m not positive -- but to the

7 rear of, or the south of, uh, the Dassey residence,
8 or , uh , Steve Avery's residence , loo king out over the
9 salvage yard, and the -- and the vehicles you see in

10 the picture are , essentially, um, many o f t he, uh ,
11 salvaged vehicles in that pit area .

12 Q Through your seven days of , um , contact with that
13 residence , uh, did you come to determine how many
14 junked vehicles were on that property?

15 A Yes . There were approximatel y 4,000 vehicles on tha t
16 property or on that salvage yard.

17 Q All right. You said that, um -- that t his
18 particular p roperty, and -- and I don't expect
19 any of these , uh, out-of- town jurors to know
20 this, but , uh, the entry to t his prope rty is on a
21 county road , a Highway 147; is that right?
22 A A state highway . Highway 147 . Yes .
23 Q I'm showing you now what's been mar ked as Exhibit

24 No. 20. Can you tell us what that is, please?
25 A That's a sign f or the Avery Auto Salvage a nd Towing ,
143
1 and that is located at t he , uh , north end of Avery
2 Road where it intersects with, uh, State Highway 14 7.
3 Q Exhibit 20 is really just the business sign t hat
4 direct s patrons into that salvage area; is that
5 right?
6 A That 's correct .
7 Q Now, Agent Fassbender, your origi nal, um, contact
8 with that location you s aid was at the, uh,
9 request of , um, Sheriff Pagel, the sheriff from
10 Calumet County; is that right?
11 A Yes, that ' s right.
12 Q At about what time -- Um, perhaps you answered
13 this, but at about what time did you arrive at
14 that scene?
15 A Short ly after 2 p.m .
16 Q And about that t i me, or shortly therea f te r, did
17 you agree to become one of t he lead inves t i ga t ors
18 in th is ca se?
19 A Yes .
20 Q And, again , shortly after 2 p .m., did you and
21 other law e nforcement officers b ecome act i vely
22 involved in securing or app l ying f or what's known
23 as a search warrant?
24 A Yes .
25 Q Tell the jury what a search warrant is , pl ease?
144
1 A Essentially, a search warrant is an order , uh, signed
2 by a judge , based on probable cause that directs law

3 enforcement to search a person, object, uh, place,
4 uh, and to seize, uh, property or items of property .
5 It 1 s based on probable cause that a
6 crime may have been committed. Uh, along with

7 that , uh, the date that it 1 s issued to the date
8 that it's, uh, executed, uh, you have five days
9 to do that, and you have 48 hours to return the

10 search warrant. Basically, that ' s returning it
11 to the Clerk of Courts, or t he Court, with a
12 an inventory of what was seized if anything.
13 Q The judicial authorization, that is, the , urn
14 the fact that a judge authorizes you to search ,

15 uh, either a place , uh, or buildings , or
16 residences , or even persons, urn, did you believe

17 that that was required or necessary before, uh ,
18 you folks went any further that day? That is, on
19 the 5th?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You said that upon your arrival , urn, you had
22 observed some items or some property that had
23 been previously discovered by some citizen

24 searchers ; is that right?
145
1 Q Describe that for the jury, please?
2 A The item was a -- a 1999, uh, RAV 4 . I t was
3 bluish/green in color , and, um, the c i ti zen searchers

4 had located it on the Avery property, and had
5 contacted law enforcement, uh , reporting that t he y
6 may have located, uh , Teresa Halbach's vehicle.

7 Q I ' m going to show you t hree exhibi ts . Firs t , uh,
8 Exhibit No. 21 , larger picture of that , can you
9 tell us what we' re looking at , please?
10 A That is the, uh , rear of that vehicle I just
11 described, a Toyota RAV 4, 1999, bluish/green in
12 color , and that is the condition that that vehicl e ,
13 or the rear of t he v ehicle, the condition of t hat
14 vehicle , uh, as it was found .

15 Q And does that loo k the same or s imilar as when
16 you saw it shortly after 2 p . m. on the 5th of
17 Novembe r?
18 A Yes .
19 Q And, by the way , just so t his jury is aware , uh,
20 had that vehicle been secured? That is , did law

21 enforcement officers, who arrived on t he scene
22 prior to your arrival, make sure that nobody had
23 entered or tampered with that vehicle?

24 A Yes .
25 Q The vehicle, at least Exhibit No ., uh, 23, as we
146
1 see it -- excuse me, 21, as we see i t , appears to
2 be obscured by, um - - at least at the back of
3 it -- by some branches . Uh, could you describe
4 that further? Did it appear to be intentionally
5 concealed in your opinion?
6 A Absolutely. Uh, tree branches, posts , fence posts ,
7 boxes, plywood, auto parts.
8 Q All ri ght . Let's move on, then, to Exhi b it No .
9 22 , the side of t he v ehicle . Tell us what we' re
10 looking at here , please?
11 A This is t he passenger side of that vehicle. Uh , uh,
12 you can s ee to the - - t h e r ear o f t h e vehicle is t hat
13 red vehicle I was talking about that the RAV 4 was,
14 uh, positioned next to. Um, as you ca n see , it ' s got
15 tinted windows in t h e back . Uh, there ' s a vehicle
16 hood leaned up against, uh, the RAV 4 .
17 You can see branches . Even in the , uh,
18 lower right-hand corner is a piece of the, u h,
19 particle board or plywood I was talking about .
20 Uh, and on top of the v e hi cle you can see that
21 branches, uh, were placed on the top of t h e
22 vehicle also .
23 Q And, finally, I 'm going to show you Exhibit No.
24 23 . Tell us what we ' re looking at here , please?
25 A That ' s a photograph of the same vehicle. The RAV 4.
147
1 Uh, the passenger side front corner facing that
2 direction . Again, uh, it 's a good picture to show ,
3 uh, t he object s th at were used to -- i n an attempt to
4 con ceal t h e vehicle. Uh, brush, branches, u h , posts
5 fencing , plywood. There ' s actually a -- a box on the
6 hood some where in there, too . Um, and the -- and
7 the, uh -- toward t he rear of the passenger side you
8 can see the vehi c le hood , uh, leaning up against
9 the t h e RAV 4 .
10 Q If you would be so ki nd as to take the laser

11 pointer , the larger image , show that vehicle hood
12 that we're ta lking about?
13 A On t he left side of the photograph h ere , urn, that I'm
14 pointing to right now , is that vehicle hood lean --
15 lea ning up against the , uh , passe nge r rear quart e r
16 panel area of the RAV 4.
17 Q Do you know what that vehicle hood 's made out of?
18 A Me tal . Steel .
19 Q All right . Have I had other exhibits provided to
20 you? Ar e there other exhibi ts that we r e
21 p r ovided?
22 A Yes .
23 Q Could you tell me what they are , please?
24 Twenty- four?
25 A What's b een ma rke d a s Exhibi t 2 4 is a , uh -- a nother
148
1 photograph of , uh , the 1999 Toyota RAV 4 . Uh , it ' s
2 more at or around dusk. Getting dark out. Again, it
3 still has the, um, debris, um, that was put on and
4 stacked up by the , uh, RAV 4, and, also, there was
5 or shows , uh, some individuals in the scene, some law
6 enforcement officers in the scene.
7 Q All right. In this picture, as well, is the
8 steel, um, vehicle hood, uh, in front of a
9 gentleman I think that t he jury will learn is
10 John Ertl . Can you first point to Mr. Ertl from
11 the Crime Lab, and then , again , describe that
12 vehicle hood?
13 A Uh, Mr. Ertl's standing right there in the , uh,
14 coveralls. Uh, he's from Wisconsin State Crime Lab.
15 They h ad been called to the scene to assist in
16 processing, uh , or seizing evidence, and that the
17 vehicle hood is is to his left and in front of him
18 right there leaning up, again -- against the Toyota
19 RAV 4 .
20 Q Before we go any further, uh, Agent Fassbender,
21 we've brought into the court , uh, what's been
22 marked as Exhibit No. 26 . Can you tell us what
23 that is , please?
24 A Exhibit 26 is that vehicle hood that I 've pointed out
25 in the photographs, uh, leaning up against the , uh,
149
1 rear qua rter pane l -- passenger rear quarter panel of
2 the RAV 4.
3 Q Have you picked up, or with the assistance of
4 others, attempte d to manipulate that particular
5 piece of steel?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Uh, in your opinion, um , would that ta ke more
8 t han one individual to , u h , at least
9 appropriately, move it from one area to anoth er?
10 A Yes .
11 Q I ' m showi ng you, also , what ' s b een marked as
12 Exhibit No. 25 . Tell us what that is , please?
13 A Exhibit 25 is another photograph of, uh, t h e RAV 4
14 and its location. Where it was found . This
15 photograph is taken l ooking , uh , at the rear
16 passenger corner of the vehicle. Clearly, again,
17 showing, and I ' ll point out, the vehi cle hood, uh,
18 what a ppea rs to be a fe nce post next to the vehicle
19 hood, and branches , uh , concealing the vehicle .
20 Q If I can go back just a a moment , please , to
21 Exhibit No . 24 , uh , we see Mr . Ertl , yourself ,
22 coupl e of oth er i ndividuals in that -- in that
23 d epiction , um, and yo u mention this was right
24 around dusk ; is that righ t?
25 A Yes .
150
1 Q What's the significance, if any , of Exhibit No .
2 24? In other words , what is happening just prior
3 to and just after thi s photograph was taken? I 'm

4 going to ask it a -- a -- different way because
5 that -- I know that that was a bad question. I'm

6 sorry . Uh , was this vehicle , um, completely
7 processed at the scene or was a decision made to
8 remove the vehicle from this location?
9 A The decision was made in conjunction with, uh , the

10 forensic scientists from the Crime Laboratory that we
11 would move the vehicle from the scene . Um, one,
12 uh -- Some factors that entered into that decision,
13 obviously , was , uh , darkness , uh , coming upon the
14 scene, and inclement weather also having already

15 happened, and, uh, more inclement weather being
16 predicted , so the vehicle was , uh , removed from the

17 scene and - - and transported to the Crime Laboratory
18 in Madison.
19 Q Could you tell the jury, please, how the vehicle
20 was removed from the scene?

21 A Well, first , the Crime Lab personnel that were at the
22 scene , uh , processed and e xamined the items that , uh ,
23 were used to conceal the vehicle, um, to determine

24 whether they felt it had any e v identiary value.
25 Certain items were seize d and
151
1 transport ed with the vehicle, such as the vehicle
2 hood there. Urn, at that time a wrecker service
3 was contacted, as well as a transport service,
4 Rabas, uh -- Rabas, R-a-b-a-s, I believe, came
5 and, uh -- with t heir wreckers, and they removed
6 the vehicle from its location and brought it out

7 by where we had seen the vehicle crusher. At
8 that location Pethan, uh, Transport was located
9 with an enclosed trailer and the RAV 4 was backe d

10 into that enclosed trailer and sealed, and then ,
11 urn, transported to the Wisconsin State Crime
12 Laboratory in Madison, Wisconsin along with or
13 in the accompaniment of the two forensic
14 scientists that were on the scene.
15 Q Just prior to the removal of the ve hicle , uh,
16 were there any other resources that were called
17 in, uh, to search, uh, at least around that
18 particular RAV 4?
19 A Yes , there was.
20 Q Describe that for us, please?

21 A Um, we utilized, uh, Great Lakes Search and Rescue,
22 which is , uh, basically, uh, search dogs , and t hey
23 came to the scene. And one dog, in particular , was
24 utilized, uh, in that area, that south , uh , east area
25 of the yard, salvage yard, uh , commencing at around
152
1 the crusher area.
2 The dog was used to, um, see if it would
3 alert on the crusher. You know, this dog I'm
4 tal king about is a dog that would alert. They
5 called them cadaver dogs , and t h e y will alert on,
6 uh , uh , deceased human bodies as we ll as human
7 blood. And, uh, that dog was utilized to search
8 that area to the south and then along that south
9 line to the -- or past the Toyota RAV 4.
10 Q I ' m showing you Exhibit No. 27. Thi s is a woman
11 named Julie Cramer and a dog name d Brutus . Do
12 you recognize them?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Tell us, who are Julie and Brutus?
15 A The y're members of the Great Lur -- Great Lakes
16 Search and Rescue, and, uh, Julie is the handler of
17 Brutus . Brutus is one of those dogs I j ust
18 mentioned. And the y are the two that searched the
19 area I just talked about .
20 Q Now, were you presen t when the K- 9 handler, tha t
21 is, t he human remains handle r, Julie Cramer and
22 Brutus searche d the area of Teresa Halbach ' s RAV
23 4?
24 A Yes , I was .
25 Q Describe your observations for the jury, please?
153
1 A Well, as we were going down that line of cars on the ,
2 uh, south berm of that property that I had pointed
3 out, um -- Actual ly, prior to that, Julie had
4 explained what would happen if Brutus alerted on, uh,
5 an area that may contain human remains or blood, and
6 as they were going down that area or that, uh, line,
7 and when they reached the RAV 4, Brutus clearly, at
8 least to my observations, alerted on that -- that
9 vehicle.
10 Q And just so the jury's clear, uh, after Brutus,

11 the human remains dog, alerted on the RAV 4, uh,
12 it was at that time that the Crime Lab removed
13 the vehicle? In other words, that it was secured
14 and removed from that location; is that right?
15 A The vehicle was -- was in a secured state to begin
16 with and maintained. It was maintained in that
17 state. Um, the Crime Lab arrived just after Brutus
18 alerted on that vehicle, and the vehicle was
19 maintained there for probably another two hours, uh,
20 until we could get the resources at the scene to
21 remove the vehicle. So it was about two hours and
22 then it was removed, yes.
23 Q All right. Do you know if the vehicle was locked

24 at the scene?
25 A Yes. It was.
154
1 Q Are there any other exhibits up there t hat you
2 haven't identified yet?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q I just need to ask that every once in a while.
5 Mr. Fassbender, we're showing you what's been
6 marked for identification as Exhibit No. 28.

7 Could you tell us what that is, p lease?
8 A This is a photograph of the southeast portion of the
9 Avery Salvage Yard, and I think , more particularly ,

10 depicting the automobile crusher, and I'll use the
11 pointer on the big screen.
12 Um, I'm pointing at that right now.
13 Large, uh, orange-ish/yellow piece of machinery .
14 Uh, you'll notice right near there is another
15 piece of machinery moving what appears to be a
16 crushed vehicle. Um, that happened when all
17 those crushed vehicles to t he south of that
18 crusher were examined and moved to the north side
19 of the crusher.
20 Q If you just point to Exhibit 28 again and show us
21 where the crushed vehicles, that is, after the
22 vehicles were put in the crusher, where were they
23 stored or kept, at least temporarily, on the

24 Avery property?
25 A Pointing at the crusher right now, the -- the, uh,
155
1 orange-ish/yellow piece of machinery, just to t he
2 right of that on the photograph, or to the south of
3 that, is where approximately 50-plus crushed vehicles
4 were located.
5 Q And if you could show the jury, please, where

6 Teresa Halbach's vehicle was discovered in
7 relation to that car crusher?
8 A Teresa 's vehicle would have been up i n this area on
9 the south edge of the salvage yard, on the other side
10 of the retention pond , and I 'm pointing to an area
11 toward the middle right of the photograph.
12 Q Now , do you know about how far that, uh , vehicle

13 was -- that is, Teresa's vehicle -- was from the
14 car crusher?
15 A It was about 350 feet.
16 Q And at least from the intact vehicles, that is,

17 the noncrushed vehicles, was Teresa Halbach's
18 vehicle in a row or in a line of vehicles closest
19 to the car crusher? Does that question make
20 sense?
21 A Uh, Teresa Halbach ' s vehicle was in a line of
22 v e hicles , that it was very near the car crusher and
23 it had access to the car crusher .

24 Q All right. Let's talk about the crusher , itself ,
25 Exhibit No. 29 . Tell us what that is, please?
156
1 A That ' s a photograph of the car crusher that we just
2 saw, which is located in that southeast, uh , corner
3 of the Avery Salvage Yard. To the, uh , left of the
4 car crusher , which I 'm pointing out right now, to the
5 left of that car crusher, or the north , is, um , the
6 crushed cars. Originally, they were to the south,
7 but when we examined each and every car, crushed car,
8 they were then placed, uh, in this area to the north
9 of the car crusher.
10 Q Before we move forward , tell the jury why it was
11 that you examined and looked in, in those first
12 two days of the search, why you examined every
13 one of those crushed cars?
14 A We were looking for Teresa.
15 Q And at that point , at least on Saturday , Sunday,
16 a nd Monday, uh , you hadn't found her body yet; is
17 that correct?
18 A That's correct .
19 Q Before we move too far, I'm showing you Exhibit
20 32 . Might give us a better perspective. Can you
21 tell us what that is, please?
22 A Again, 32 is a -- an aerial photograph, uh, showing
23 the southeast corner of the, um, Avery Salvage Yard.
24 Uh, and on the screen there ' s a big box in the lower
25 right-hand corner that's titled, " vehicle crusher ".
157
1 That's where the vehicle crusher was located. And
2 then approximately 350, 60 feet to the southwest is a
3 smaller box, where I'm pointing right now, that has a

4 title "RAV 4 location", and that's where Teresa's
5 vehicle was located.

6 Q Can you point to that line of cars? You talked
7 about a line of cars that looked like it was
8 close to or waiting to be crushed? Is that a
9 fair characterization?
10 A Along the left side of the photograph, I'm pointing
11 to a line of cars , which is basically the south edge
12 of the Avery Salvage Yard, and that is right there,

13 and Teresa's vehicle was located in amongst that line
14 of cars .
15 Q You said after the crusher crushed the cars , they
16 were in a -- a crushed state. Um, I'm going to

17 show you what's been marked as Exhibit No . 30 .
18 Tell us what that is , please?
19 A That is that, uh, crushed state that, uh, you just

20 mentioned. Often, uh, the way my understanding --
21 and I'm not an expert on this - - when they crush the
22 cars , uh, they would place more than one vehicle in
23 that crusher. The y crushed three , four vehicles at a

24 time and ma ke somewhat of a sandwich of, uh, several
25 vehicles . So what you' re looking at there is , uh,
158
1 several vehicles crushed into one, um, item,
2 essentially.
3 Q All right. I'm going to ask you a bit of a
4 hypothetical, and if you don't feel that you can
5 comment or express an opinion about this , um ,
6 then please tell us that, but if Teresa Halbach's
7 vehicle would have ended up in the middle of one
8 of these sandwiches, uh, would it have been
9 easily identified or located?
10 A Well, it would have been very difficult to locate.
11 Q I showed you a couple of other aerial
12 photographs , and I ~ant to show you Exhibit No.
13 33 before going too far. It's going to give the
14 jury a little better understanding or overview of
15 the area. Can you tell us what we're looking at,
16 please?
17 A This is an aerial photograph from more of a distance.
18 Uh , right in the center of the photograph,
19 essentially , is the Avery Salvage Yard that we've
20 been talking about and showing previously.
21 Uh, to the left side of the photograph,
22 or the upper left corner , is a highway. That ' s
23 Highway 147. And then Avery Road right here, uh,
24 on the left side of the photograph, and going
25 toward the right , or toward the south, that ' s
159
1 Avery Road, and into the auto salvage yard .
2 To the south, or the lower side portion
3 of the au -- salvage yard, is a quarry, gravel
4 pit quarry, uh, owned by Radandt. To the south
5 of the Avery Salvage Yard that I 'm pointing to
6 right now, or to the right of the Avery Salvage
7 Yard, is also a quarry owned by Radandt.
8 To the east of the salvage yard is open
9 field . To the northeast of the salvage yard is
10 another quarry owned by Michels, and to the north
11 of the Avery Salvage Yard, again, is is, uh,
12 open field and farm field.
13 ATTORNEY KRATZ: If I may, Your Honor , I
14 am about to shift topics into more specific
15 searches . I ' m going to suggest this might be a
16 good time for our afternoon break.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Uh, we'll take a
18 15-minute break, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, just so
19 the jury knows, today we'll go until 5 : 00 . Usual l y,
20 it ' s 4:30. There's some give and take in that
21 depending upon where the lawyers are with the
22 various witnesses. All right.
23 (Jurors out at 2:37 p.m.)
24 THE COURT : Mr. Fremgen, do you still want
25 to be heard on that obj e ction?
160
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge , my -- my
2 objection was simply
3 THE COURT: Why -- why don't you get to
4 the microphone , please . Thank you.
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: On, uh, No. 13, my
6 objection was simply -- I -- I -- I don ' t have an
7 objection with it being used as a demonstrative aid .
8 I just don't think it should be received as evidence
9 since there was something similar to , purchased
10 later with , uh, the detective or the agent
11 afterwards to find something that looked like the
12 jeans . I -- No problem with the State ' s use of it
13 as a demonstrative aid . But , again , I just don' t
14 think it should be received as evidence in this
15 case .
16 THE COURT : Well, my understanding is it's
17 principally being used to link up the rivets from ,
18 uh - - from what was found to -- what was known to be
19 owned by the -- by the victim; is that correct?
20 ATTORNEY KRATZ : There's been no claim
21 that those are Teresa Halbach's jeans .
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ: In fact , just the
24 opposite. They ' re demonstrative, Judge .
25 THE COURT : Uh, uh, for that limited
161
1 purpose, it's going to be admitted . All right.
2 (Recess had at 2 :40 p.m . )
3 (Reconvened at 3 : 04 p.m .)
4 THE COURT: Mr. Kratz, you may proceed.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you.

6 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Agent Fassbender, let 's move
7 on, then, to responsibilities on the 5th of
8 November . You had mentioned earlier that a
9 search warrant was obtained and you had spoken ,
10 at least to this jury, about the, urn, process ing,
11 recovery , and seizure of the SUV. Could you
12 descr i be for the jurors, please, urn, what was the
13 search plan, uh, later? That is, that first day
14 on the 5th of November?
15 A Essentially, what happened after we got the search
16 warrant is we did an initial search, which sometimes
17 it's described as a, uh, protective sweep. Law
18 enforcement , when they execute a search warrant, wi ll
19 do a sweep of the area or buildings that they are
20 going to search to see if there ' s any people , or

21 dangers to , uh, law enforcement or anyone else at
22 t hat time.
23 In this instance , we did do that . We

24 sent out teams to do protective sweeps and to do
25 an initial search immediately , uh , to see if we
162
1 could find Teresa. Hopeful l y, find her alive .
2 So we had that initial search that was
3 followed up with dog teams. Primary purpose of
4 the dogs was to go through the salvage yard and
5 through the rows of vehicles to see if they
6 alerted on anything , but the dogs were also
7 utilized, uh , in, uh, many of the residences
8 and -- and buildings to see if t h ey wou ld alert
9 there .
10 After those searches were done, um, we
11 go back to the command post, and we debrief, and,
12 uh, a search -- or evidence search team was put
13 together. Uh , due to resou rces and personnel , we
14 had one evidence search team that we ut ilized ,
15 uh, t hat evening , and that search team started
16 to -- out by searching, uh, Steven Avery's
17 trailer that evening.
18 Q I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit No.
19 34. Tell us what we 're looking at, please?
20 A That is a photograph of Steven Avery's trailer , and
21 to the left of the trailer is his unattached garage.
22 Q In the foreground, and to the right , uh , do you
23 see a burn barrel?
24 A Yes , I do. There's a burn barrel , uh, with some
25 yellow, um, police tape around it .
163
1 Q We ' re going to hear from , uh , Special Agent
2 He ime rl, I think i t 's t omorrow, but, uh , sometime
3 on Tue s -- excuse me , on , um, Monday , t he 7th ,
4 were you a ware that that search or -- excuse me ,
5 that that , uh , burn barrel was recovered , uh,
6 processed , and found some electronic equipment
7 ins ide?
8 A Yes , it wa s, on Monday , the 7th . November 7 .
9 Q Tell us what, uh , Exhibit No . 35 is , please?
10 A It ' s another photograph of the front of Steven
11 Avery ' s residence , trai l er , and then , uh , Steven
12 Avery' s unat tached garage . You can see t he LP tan k
13 in the backgr ound between the garage and trai ler , and
14 a, uh, pickup truck in front of the garage.
15 Q Now , this , uh , trailer of Mr . Avery had , uh , two
16 entrance doors . Is that your understanding?
17 A That Two primary entrance doors , yes . There was
18 also a , uh , patio door i n the back .
19 Q Or the front or what would be to the front of the
20 trailer entrance doors , are those depicted in
21 Exhibit No . 36?
22 A Yes , they are .
23 Q And is that being depicted on the large screen as
24 well?
25 A Yes .
164
1 Q You had mentioned the back of the trailer, um,
2 had a sliding door, or an e ntry , uh, location.
3 Exhibit No. 37, does that show tha t part of the
4 trailer as well?
5 A Yes , it does.
6 Q Now, Agent Fassbender, the, um, search of the
7 residence, itself, uh, how was that performed and
8 who was that performed by? In other words, how
9 were teams developed to do the searching , uh,
10 during this, um, process?
11 A When we're searching, uh, for evidence, uh , on
12 Saturday evening, a, uh, team was put together, and
13 this team may be a little different than the initial
14 search teams , because, uh, they ' re searching for
15 evidence, and if they find evidence , uh, we want them
16 to be able to process, collect, uh, prepare for
17 transport of that evidence.
18 So when we put that particular team
19 together , we're looking for officers that have
20 been trained and have experience in evidence

21 processing and collection, and that's how that
22 team ul timately got put together .
23 Q You talked about a search of the, urn, and a sweep

24 of the trailer and the garage. I'm showing you
25 Exhibit 38. What is that?
165
1 A That's, again, a -- a viewpoint of Steven Avery's
2 trailer in the background, his unattached garage in
3 the foreground with, uh, his black truck, and we
4 would be facing west taking that picture.
5 Q Just so the jury can see , I 'm going to zoom in a

6 little bit closer, urn, there's a -- a dog , uh , to
7 the left of the, um, exhibit. Do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Were you aware of that dog and were you aware of
10 the demeanor of that dog?

11 A Yes , I was.
12 Q Describe that for the jury, please?
13 A The -- The occasions I had to be around that dog,
14 that dog appeared to be very ag-- aggressive.
15 Pulling on its chain, leaping against the chain ,
16 barking and snarling. I -- I kept my distance.

17 Q Were you made aware -- and -- and I think we've
18 heard, um, or will hear some more about this, but
19 did that dog prevent a search area of the back of
20 Steven Avery's garage at least for a couple of
21 days of your processing?

22 A Yes , it certainly did when we had the dogs there,
23 because the dogs didn ' t weren't going to go near

24 that dog because of the aggressive nature, and as
25 well as, uh, searchers going through that area,
16 6
1 steering clear of that area .
2 Q What i s Exhibit No . 39 ?
3 A Thirty- nine is a photog raph of t h e fron t of Steven
4 Avery ' s unattached garage with his pickup truck
5 parked in front of that .
6 Q And , again , this garage was not only swept on the

7 5th b ut was l ater , uh, searched on Sunday , the
8 6th ; is that correct?
9 A That ' s correct .
10 Q Were you familiar , uh , Agent Fassbender , with the

11 van that Teresa Halbach took photos of on the
12 31st?
13 A Yes .
14 Q I ' m showing you what ' s been marked as Exhibit No .
15 40 so that we can talk about that just , uh ,
16 briefly . Tell us what we ' re looking at , please?
17 A That i s t he van , maroon v an . I bel i eve a Plymouth
18 VQyager that , uh, Barb Tadych had for sale that
19 Steven had arranged for Teresa to come out and take a
20 photograph of .
21 Q And t hat vehicle is what would be directly in
22 front of , or, perhaps , bette r stated, between the
23 Avery and the Janda, slash , Dassey residence; is

24 that correct?
167
1 Q In fact, as we look at Exhibit No. 41, gets a
2 better perception or perspective, at least , as
3 far as Barb's trailer; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q The red trailer that we had talked about, were
6 you abl e to determine who that trailer had
7 belonged to?
8 A Yes .
9 Q Who is that?
10 A Who lived there or who it was owned by?
11 Q Who lived there?
12 A Uh, Steven Avery.
13 Q All right . And so the jury can , uh , see photos
14 of him, Exhibit 43 , is that a picture of his
15 driver ' s license photograph?
16 A Yes, it is.
17 Q And, I'm sorry, that was 42 . And Exhibit No. 43,
18 on the 9th , after he was booked in this case, is
19 that a picture o f his booking photo?
20 A Yes , it is .
21 Q On Steven Avery's property , uh, that is, uh, to
22 the rear of his garage area, uh , were you aware
23 of any tire s, uh, that were located that, uh, you
24 determined were later used to fuel , uh, a large
25 fire behi nd Steven ' s garage?
168
1 A Yes, there was a, uh, pile of tires .
2 Q I'm showing you Exhibit No. 31. Is t hat a
3 photograph of those tires?
4 A Yes . And that was located on the southwest corner
5 of, urn, the yard, um, associated with the residence
6 that Steven lived in.
7 Q Agent Fassbender, the, um, search -- that is, the
8 week-long search -- of the p roperty , um, items
9 were located. That that 's fair, isn 't it?
10 A That's fair.
11 Q Were you aware of Teresa Halbach's license plates
12 being found that week?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you remember where those were found?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Tell us where that was, please?
17 A That was on Tuesday, um, November 8, and they were
18 found in a salvaged vehicle that was located along
19 the driveway, just to the south of the driveway,
20 going down to Mr. Dassey, Mr. Avery's residences
21 along a fence line there.
22 Q Tell us who those, uh, plates were located by?
23 A Uh, they were located by William Brandes, who was a
24 volunteer firefighter , who had been teamed up in
25 search teams with law enforcement officers, uh ,
169
1 looking for evidentiary items such as those license
2 p l ates .
3 Q Let me show you Exhibit No. 44 , ask us if you
4 can tell us what that i s , please?
5 A That ' s a photograph , uh , of the vehicle -- station
6 wagon there , t hat the license plates were found in .
7 Q The licens e plate s, themselves, were they
8 p hotographed inside of this vehicle?
9 A Uh , yes , they were .
10 Q Who were they photographed by?
11 A Uh , Trooper Cindy Paine.
12 Q So Wi scons in St at e Troope r ?
13 A Uh , Wisconsin State Patrol Trooper , yes .
14 Q Exhibit No . 45 , tell us what that is , please?
15 A That ' s the photograph of the license plates placed
16 inside that vehicle , uh , taken by Trooper Pai ne . Um,
17 t he p l ates had b een removed because they were folded
18 in on themselves . They had to be unfolded to
19 determine what the number of the license was, and
20 then they were just placed back in there and a
21 photograph was taken.
22 Q Al l right . And , final l y , Exhibit No . 46 , tel l us
23 what this depicts , please?
24 A Forty-six is basically a relation in ship picture.
25 Uh , on the left side of the photograph shows Steven
170
1 Avery's residence. Next to that, to the r ight , is
2 the Janda/Dassey residence , and , then , a little

3 further to the right , or to the wes t, is an arrow
4 pointing at the vehicle that the license plates were
5 found in.
6 Q So if you're looking at this particular access
7 road , could you show us , uh , how you would walk
8 or drive down t h is road to get towards the
9 either the Avery residence or the Dassey

10 residence?
11 A Well , on the picture to the r ight here, that is
12 the - - or to the top of the pic ture - - is the
13 driveway or access road going down to , uh , the

14 Janda/Dassey residence and Steven Avery residence.
15 If you keep going to the right , wh ich would be to t he
16 east, you would run into Avery Road and the entrance
17 to the salvage yard, and t hen Avery road to the north
18 out to State Highway 147.
19 Q I've handed you what ' s been marke d as Exhibit No.

20 47. Could you tell us what that is, please?
21 A That ' s a photograph of the front , or the north side
22 of , um , Mr. Dassey's residence.
23 Q And can you tell us what ' s in front of -- of

24 that, um, residence?
25 A Right in front of that residence , where I ' m pointing
171
1 right now , about in the middle of the photograph is a
2 golf cart .
3 Q I ' m also goi ng to show you Exhibi t No . 51 . Tell
4 us what 51 is , please?
5 A That photograph depicts that same golf cart. It ' s
6 blue in color with a white seat on it .
7 Q Agent Fassbender , have you ever had occasion to
8 be inside of that residence?
9 A Yes .
10 Q I ' m going to direct your attention, and I know
11 I ' m skipping ahead just - - just briefly, but on
12 the 1st of March , um, we heard , at least in our
13 opening remarks , about a statement that was given
14 you by the defendant , Brendan Dassey? You and
15 Investigator Wiegert? Is that correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q Later, on the 1st of March , were you given
18 permission and , in fact, did you enter the
19 residence of Barb Janda and Brendan Dassey?
20 A Yes .
21 Q And in the J anda and Dassey residence , uh, did
22 you find any , uh , items , speci fically , in the
23 bedroom of Barb Janda?

24 A Yes .
25 Q I ' m going to first show you what ' s been marked
172
1 Exhibit No . 49. It ' s shown on t he large screen .
2 Tell us what we're looking at, please ?
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge , could I have a
4 sidebar , p lease?
5 THE COURT : Sure.
7 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Exhibit No. 49, and what are
8 we looking at?
9 A That is the bedroom of , um, Barb Tadych, um, in her
10 residence , and showing some closet space or storage
11 space there , and on , um, the handles of some of
12 those, um , closets or storage space we found
13 located, uh , some - - what you would call leg irons
14 and handcuffs .
15 Q I ' m going to show you what has been marked as
16 Exhibit 48. These are closeups. Do you
17 recognize Exhibit 48?
18 A Yes, I do . It's a pair of the handcuffs that were,
19 uh , taken out of, um, that bedroom .
20 Q And Exhibit No. 50 . Tell us what that is?
21 A That's a pair of what we'd call leg irons , also taken
22 out of that bedroom.
23 Q Now, also on the 1st, did Mr. Dassey identify for
24 you any clothing items? Specifically, items that
25 he had worn on the 31st of October?
173
1 A Yes.
2 Q I show you Exhibit No. 52 . Tell us what that is,

3 p lease?
4 A That's a jacket that we located in Mr . Dassey's
5 residence. Um, I believe it had the name of Friar
6 Tuck on it or Friar Tuck's, someth ing like that .
7 Q And what did he tell you about this jacket?
8 A That he believed that, uh, was a jacket that he had
9 worn, uh, the night of October 31 , 2005 .
10 Q Exhibit 53. Tell us what that is , please?
11 A That's a pair of, uh, tennis shoes or sneakers , also
12 taken out of, uh, Mr. Dassey's residence, and, again,
13 it -- they fit the description of sneakers he said he
14 was wearing that evening .
15 Q And, finally, Exhibit No. 54 . Tell us what that
16 is , please?
17 A It's a pair of blue jeans that, uh, Mr. Dassey,
18 himself, um, located, or took me to in his residence,
19 um, indicating that those are the pants that he wore
20 that evening.
21 Q On the photograph, uh, appears to depict some
22 stains on them. Do you see that? And can you
23 show us that on -- on the screen?
24 A Yes. Um, white stains on the lower right-hand pocket
25 area of the blue jeans, and also on the upper, uh,
174
1 left-hand pocket area of the blue jeans there ' s some
2 whi te staining.
3 Q Some stains around the, uh, bottom portions or
4 around the knees as well?
5 A Yes . Spots and stains that are white .

6 Q Now, we'll get into the statements of Mr. Dassey ,
7 uh, much more detail lat er this week, but did
8 Mr. Dassey describe for you what those s tains
9 were ?
10 A Yes .
11 Q What did h e te ll you?
12 A He said they were bleach stai ns .
13 Q Did he say how those bleach stains got on h is
14 jeans?
15 A Yes .
16 Q How?
17 A He said that he got them on when he was helping clean
18 up the garage floor in Steven Avery's garage, and
19 that -- because t hey use -- utilized some bleach to
20 clean that area.

21 Q Now, t he j eans , themse l ves , uh, has Mr. Wiegert
22 provided you wi t h, uh -- with those?
23 A Yes .
24 Q What is that exhibit number?
25 A Exhibit 58 .
175
1 Q Tell us what Exhibit 58 is, please?
2 A Exhibit 58 is the pair of jeans that, uh, Brendan
3 Dassey, um, took us to in his residence on

4 February 27, 2006 and consented to us taking them .
5 Q And do those jeans still appear , as you see them

6 today here in the courtroom, to have bleach
7 stains on them?
8 A Yes, they do.
9 ATTORNEY KRATZ: What are those

10 exhibits , Mr. Wiegert, 59 and 60?
11 Q (By Attorney Kratz) We're going to show you
12 Exhibits 59 and 60. Tell us what those are,
13 please?
14 A Two sets of , um, handcuffs.
15 Q Do you know where those were retrieved from or
16 where you retrieved them from?
17 A One set of the handcuffs was retrieved from
18 Mr. Dassey and, uh, Mrs. Tadych's residence, and I
19 believe another set was, um, seized from Steven
20 Avery's residence.
21 Q Exhibit No. 61 and 62 are being handed to you
22 now. What are those?
23 A Uh, two -- two sets of, um, fur lined leg irons .
24 Q Where were those seized from?
25 A I know we took two sets of leg irons out of
176
1 Mr. Dassey and Mrs. Tadych's residence, and we also
2 took one set of leg irons out of Steven Avery's
3 residence.
4 Q All right. Agent Fassbender, this has been, uh,
5 agreed to by the , uh -- by the defense, but, um,
6 were you able to retrace the steps of Teresa
7 Halbach? That is, uh, where she had been prior
8 to arriving at Mr., uh, Avery's property on the
9 31st of October, and approximately when? Do you
10 recall?
11 A Yes, we were able to retrace. And I didn't
12 understand or hear the rest of the question.
13 Q If you were able to tell us, first of all, the
14 two residences that afternoon , the afternoon of
15 the 31st , that Ms. Halbach had been?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Who is that?
18 A Uh, Steven Schmitz residence and a JoEllen Zipperer
19 residence.
20 Q And at the JoEllen Zipperer residence, um, d i d
21 law enforcement officials receive from Mrs.
22 Zipperer, specifically, that packet of, uh,
23 information, the AutoTrader information, given to
24 her by Ms. Halbach?
25 A Yes.
177
1 Q I show you what's been marked as Exhibit 55.
2 Tell us what that is, please?
3 A That's a n AutoTrader bill of sale and Auto -- a
4 current AutoTrader Magazine, and a, uh, " For Sale"
5 sign .
6 Q Is it your understanding that after a transaction
7 was completed between Ms., uh, Halbach and
8 whatever customer for AutoTrader, that she would
9 give them a bill of sale as well as the most
10 current magazine?
11 A Yes . Sarne thing happened with Mr. Schmitz .
12 Q Al l right . And the defense has also been kind
13 enough to stipulate , which means agree , to some
14 business records . I ' m showing you Exhibit 56 .
15 Ask if you can tell us what those business
16 records are, please?
17 A Exhibit 6 -- 56 is a copy of Ci ngular , um, toll
18 records , billing, uh, for, uh, the cell phone of
19 Teresa Halbach.
20 Q Okay . And are 57 the cell phone records for
21 Cellcom? That is , for Mr. Avery's cell phone on
22 the 31st of October?
23 A I believe so , but let me confirm. Yes.
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: And , Judge , although ,
25 uh, this is , perhaps , the first time this week
178
1 that this kind of statement , uh, wil l be made,
2 but , uh , I would ask that , uh, uh, defense
3 counsel , um, agree , and indi cate to the Court ,
4 their acceptance and approval that the, uh ,
5 business records , in this case of Cingular and
6 Cellcom, be admitted without the necessity of
7 calling a custodian of the records and without
8 objection of the defense .
9 THE COURT: Mr . Fremgen?
10 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I believe we've

11 stipulated to that already.
12 THE COURT : That's part of the stipulation .
13 All right .
14 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Thank you.
15 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Agent Fassbender, the
16 balance of the week, that is , after the 5th of
17 November , could you describe for the jury,
18 please, the , um , uh , search efforts of this
19 property? I don't mean , specifically, what days
20 and what was searched, but , uh, just give the
21 jury, if you will , since they ' re not going to
22 hear day by day , um, what was searched for , uh ,
23 in the Avery property and the surrounding, uh ,
24 property as well?
25 A As I said before, there's approximately 15 buildings
179
1 on the property . All the buildings were searched by
2 search teams . Um, also on the property, each and
3 every, uh , uh , vehicle of t he approximate four sev
4 four thousand vehicles were searched .
5 Uh , addi tional personnel were brought in

6 to assist in those searches , to include, uh ,
7 Wisconsin St ate Patrol . Uh , o n two separate days
8 60 - plus troopers were brought in just for search
9 efforts .
10 Um, anywhere from 45 to 60 , uh ,

11 volunteer firefighters were brought in on , uh ,
12 two or three days.

13 Uh , law enforcement personnel from
14 several counties were brought in , or asked to
15 come in and help. Several police departments
16 were asked to come in and help .
17 Citi zen sea rches were done in , uh,
18 adjacent properties , not on the Avery Salvage

19 Yard .
20 Um , Winnebago County , for example ,

21 brought their dive teams in , and, uh, they were
22 utilized i n pond s . They were l ocated in adjace nt
23 properties , quarries . Some ponds were pumped

24 out , uh , to look through those , uh , for either
25 Teresa or evidentiary items .
180
1 Q The next area of inquiry I have, uh -- I'm sorry .
2 The next area I have for you, Agent Fassbender,
3 are the creation of, um, computer-generated
4 images on and around this property . First of
5 all, are you familiar with how these images were
6 created?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And could you start by generally describing for
9 the, uh, jury, uh, wha t these images are and what
10 they're meant to depict?
11 A These images were prepared by Tim Austin of the
12 Wiscons in State Patrol, who was asked to come
13 right -- to the scene right away on November 5 . Uh,
14 he uses what's called a "total station, uh,
15 measuring" or "forensic mapping" uh, piece of
16 equipment. And with that, he's able to, uh, map or
17 measure a scene, uh, to scale , uh, so you have
18 accurate measurements of, uh, any particular scene.
19 In this case, a -- a large scene or a crime scene.
20 Um, they are meant to depict, uh,
21 measurements of items at the scene, uh,
22 relationships of items at the scene and -- and
23 the measurements between them.
24 Uh , he's also able to depict those or

1 uh , models in three dimensional, adding height
2 a height to that, uh, sketch or t ha t model, and

3 he's also abl e to, uh, rende r, um -- the word
4 escapes me now -- render , um, animation scenes
5 that ' s what I ' m t hinking of -- of that same scene
6 or certain areas of that scene . And a n a nimation

7 would be a -- a virtual tour or walk-through a
8 certain area on t hat scene.
9 Q Since the jury, uh, would not be and will not be

10 in this case , visiting this scene , a nd since
11 t hese images show angles or depictions that t he
12 naked eye cannot , do you believe that these
13 images will assist the jury in understanding
14 relationships? That is , between relationships

15 of , uh, evidence that was not only seized but
16 also re l ationships of evidence, uh, to fixed

17 point s within the property?
18 A Yes . Definitely .
19 Q All right . Let ' s show the jury -- By the way, do
20 you know about how many measurements were taken

21 by Mr . Aust in ?
22 A Over 4,100 meas urements both manually and
23 electronically.
24 Q You talked about them being , urn , accurate . Do
25 you know just how accurate these are?
182
1 A Well, I -- I think the greatest distance measurement
2 he had was 1,200 feet, and at that distance the
3 maximum amount of error would be less than one-half
4 inch.
5 Q Exhibit No. 63 . We're going to go through these
6 very quickly. Can you tell us what we're looking
7 at , please?
8 A Sixty-three is a three-dimensional, uh, depiction of
9 the Janda/Dassey residence and the Steven Avery
10 residence in the northwest corner of the Avery
11 properties.
12 Q And if you could just take your laser pointer ,
13 just show the jury, uh, what we're talking about
14 here?
15 A Again, the, um, Janda /Dassey residence, unattached
16 garage to it, the Steven Avery residence and
17 unat tached garage, and the surrounding yards, and
18 that right there is the, uh, van that was for sale.
19 Q Okay. Exhibit No. 64?
20 A Um, again, 3-D rendition of essentially the same
21 section of land but from a different angle coming
22 from the north , and the, uh, Janda/Dass e y residence ,
23 garage , Steven Avery residence, garage, the vehicle

24 that was for sale .
25 Q Once again , these are views that are unattainable
183
1 by t h e human eye; is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Exhibi t No. 65, please?
4 A It ' s a 3-D rendition of, uh, the Janda/Dassey
5 residence from the front, uh , looking south , and the
6 una ttached garage , and the golf cart is righ t there .
7 Q These are not photographs, the se are actual
8 computer- generated images ; i s that correct?
9 A Correct .
10 Q Exhibi t No . 66?
11 A Another view of t he Janda/Dassey residence a n d garage
12 from the b ack yard looking north now, from the south
13 looking north , um , four burn barrels in the bac k of
14 the, um, residence area.
15 Q Exhibit 67?
16 A Uh, another depiction of Steve Avery ' s residence ,
17 Steven Avery's ga rage, the van that was for sale , and
18 then to the r ight side of the picture you can see
19 Steven Avery's burn barrel depicted .
20 Q Sixty-eight?
21 A A, uh, more close-up version o f the depiction o f
22 Stev e n Avery 's res idence , the fro n t of the r es idenc e ,
23 the deck , the , uh, entrance door to t he north, and
24 the n the rear e ntrance door to the sout h.
25 Q Exhibi t 70?
184
1 A Uh , another 3-D rendition of the rear area , or to t he
2 south, of Steven Avery's garage. Steven Avery's
3 ga r age right there, Steven Avery's residence ri ght

4 there, and then a , uh, mound, built up mound , of dirt
5 and stone , and also a dug out portion of that mound
6 to the south of the mound, which is what we c alled
7 the bur n area, doghouse, and the dog chain .
8 Q I 'm sorry, Agent Fassbender, I misspoke. This
9 was Exhibit 69 ; is that correct?

10 A Exhibit 69 , that 's correct .
11 Q I 'm sorry. And this also shows t he burned out
12 van or vehicle seat in it; i sn't that right?
13 A Correct. Right to the right of the darkened area,
14 which is the burn area , uh, j ust outside of that and

15 on t he edge of t he elevated dirt area is that burned ,
16 uh , car seat .
17 Q All r ight . Now we're moving to Exhibit No . 70 .
18 What is this?
19 A A different angle depicting the , uh -- t he mound and
20 the burn area . The, uh, car seat , Steven Avery's

21 garage, Steven Avery's house.
22 Q Exhibit 71?
23 A 3-D, uh, rendition of, uh, the Janda/Dassey

24 residence . You would be looking from above and to
25 the east , looking west. The vehicle that was for
185
1 sale, I believe it was a Plymouth. Uh, the garage,
2 Steven Avery's house, and the burn area behind the

3 garage. Steven Avery's garage.
4 Q Now, Trooper Austin was also able to do interior
5 scene modeling. In other words , uh, um, rip off
6 the roof, if you will, of buildings and show you,

7 uh, a birdseye view of the inside of -- of, uh,
8 buildings; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q I show you Exhibit No. 72. Tell us what we're
11 looking at here, please?
12 A This is where , uh, Trooper Austin made the roof, uh,
13 disappear on Steven Avery's residence, looking
14 straight down, or almost straight down, into the
15 residence to depict what the inside of t he residence ,
16 uh, looked like or had in it.

17 Q These included all of the rooms of the trai ler?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And even to the exterior , both exterior main
20 doors, as well as the, uh, sliding glass door

21 towards the back; is that right?
22 A That ' s -- That ' s correct .
23 Q Now, some closeups, uh, as to some of those

24 rooms . Uh, one of the bedroom clos e ups, which
25 includes some firearms , that ' s Exhibit 73 . Te l l
186
1 u s what we' re looking at ?
2 A This bedroom is the bedroom l oc ated to the r ear of
3 Steven Avery's residence, or to the far south. This
4 was Steven Avery's bedroom. Um, and the firearms ,
5 um, mentioned are in a gun rack on the wall, or the
6 nort hern wall , of that bedroom.
7 Q So that the jury understands these, um,
8 depictions , even the interior depictions, were
9 taken by de tailed measurements by Trooper Austin
10 as well; is t ha t right?
12 Q A different view of t hat bedroom would be Exhibit
13 No. 74. Tell us what we 're looking at, please?
14 A Same bedroom . Steven Avery's bedroom. Just a
15 different angle . Here you can see a desk in the
16 corner with a chair, and, uh, uh, a bookcase, album
17 holder, is how i t 's been described, along that , uh ,
18 east wall of the bedroom .
19 Q And later this week we're going to hea r about how
20 close Steven Avery's bedroom door is to the exit
21 door. That i s , t he door that goes towards the
22 garage . But could you just show us that with
23 your laser pointer?
24 A Steven Avery ' s - - Entrance to his bedroom right here ,
25 the rear exit door/entrance door to his trail er right
187
1 there . Just a couple steps .
2 Q Mr. Tyson, a deputy with the Sheriff 's, uh,
3 Dep artment, tomorrow, will talk about bleach
4 being found . But can you tell u s what Exhibit
5 No. 75 is?
6 A Exhibit 75 depicts t h e bathroom in Steven Avery ' s
7 trailer, which i s located right next to , or to the
8 north, of his bedroom. In that bathroom area there's
9 a , uh, laundry area right up in here where this box
10 is , and a shelf . There was empty beach -- bleach
11 bottle seized off of that s helf .
12 Q The last two images, t hen, uh, include , uh,
13 garage images. This is Exhibit No. , urn , 76 . Can
14 you tell us what t hat is , please?
15 A This is Steven Avery's garage with , urn, the roof , uh,
16 disappearing and allowing us to see the inside of the
17 garag e . I might add that t his is more of a cleaned
18 up version of the inside of that garage . Lot of the
19 clutter There was much more clutter . A lot of the
20 clutter is is not in t h ere.
21 Q And, finally, Exhibit No . 77 . Tell us what that
22 is , please?
23 A Steven Avery ' s garage . Different angle. The roof
24 has been removed. The garage door is open , or
25 removed , and , urn , again , t h e clutter not include d,
188
1 but it is accurat e, uh, rendition of the inside of
2 that garage.
3 Q Now, Evidence Tents No. 9 and 23, do you know
4 what those depict?
5 A Yes. Evidence Tent No. 9 toward the front of the
6 garage depicts where a bullet fragment , a . 22 caliber
7 bullet fragment, was located in the crack in the
8 cement of the, uh -- the floor of the garage. And
9 then back here , the other evidence tent, uh, is
10 where -- 23-A is where a bullet fragment was also
11 discovered, uh, underneath a air compression in the
12 back -- air compressor in the back of that garage.
13 Q These were searches on March 1 and 2 after
14 Mr. Dass e y's statement? Is that your
15 understanding?
17 Q Agent Fassbender, you talked about an animation,
18 or that it was possible to, um, depi ct , or have
19 Trooper Austin depict, through animation , uh,
20 what it is that , uh, he had, um, shown in a 3-D
21 version . Have you been able to, um, view t hat
22 a n i mation?
23 A Yes.
24 Q I show that to the jury at this time. Oop. I 'm
25 sorry. That's the wrong animation. If you'd be
189
1 so kind as this plays, uh, Agent Fassben der,
2 since the jury will not get a virtual tour , or
3 will not get a tour, of the property, um, explain
4 for the jury, if you will, what they are
5 observing?
6 A Well, this would be, essentially, the aerial view of
7 Steven Avery's garage and residence. You're looking
8 west to the east, and just at the bottom of the
9 screen would be the roof to the Janda , uh, Dassey
10 residence .
11 And we're moving toward the north and
12 reducing altitude, coming around the front of the
13 Janda/Dassey residence and showing the front of
14 Steven Avery's trailer. To the right yo u can see
15 t he van, where it was parked, uh, t h e van that
16 was for sale.
17 Q Use your laser pointer if you feel it's
18 necessary .
19 A The van right there . Continuing , and he -- he points
20 out the van . The front of Steven Avery's trailer.
21 To left is the garage .
22 Now, we ' re approaching Steven Avery's
23 trailer coming from the east headed west. You
24 can see a wraparound deck. There's also a pool
25 in t h e back. And that ' s the ma in entrance door
190
1 coming up over Steven Avery's trailer to the top
2 and looking down upon his residence.
3 The roo f is gone, and now we're looking
4 into the living room of Steven Avery ' s trai l er .
5 In the corner t he re' s a computer desk, TV, spare
6 bedroom, b a throom, and Steven Avery's bedroom .
7 And that would be working, uh, north to south in
8 his trai l er. Again, just different angles of
9 Steven Avery ' s bedroom.
10 Agai n, from an e l evation looking down,
11 Steven Avery's garage , and, a gain, the inte rior
12 of the garage. There ' s a Suzuki Samurai parked
13 in there, and a snowmobile also placed i n the
14 garage.
15 Coming around to the rear , or to the
16 south, of, uh, Steven Avery's garage is that
17 mound , buil t up mound, of di r t and stone I talked
18 about . The doghouse , t he chain, and the dog , and
19 this dug out portion of that mound area , which
20 was the burn area, s t eel b elts right t here, the
21 car seat, burned out car seat, a nd a t ire , which
22 were all located at the scene .
23 Just pulling a wa y from t h at , toward the ,
24 uh , southeast , more of a d istance vie w of Steve ' s
25 garage and res ide nce . We would be , esse nt iall y,
191
1 in the backyard of the, um, Janda/Dassey
2 residence right now. The four burn barrels I
3 talked about earlier, and the Janda/Dassey
4 residence. Or the Tadych, now, residence.
5 Associated with that residence were
6 these four burn barrels. You can see the
7 relationship between Steven Avery's property and
8 Mr. Dassey's property.
9 Front, or the north, of Steven
10 Avery's -- to the north of Steven Avery's trailer
11 and garage. In the forefront of the, uh ,
12 rendition here is Steven Avery's burn barrel.
13 Again, the relationship between all three items,
14 the garage, the residence , and the burn barrel.
15 Q Again, those that was an animation , uh,
16 created from those still photographs by
17 Mr . Austin? Is that your understanding?
19 (Exhibit No. 78 marked for identification.)
20 Q The last, uh --
21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: By the way, Judge , I
22 should have the record reflect that the, uh,
23 animation that has just been shown, uh, I am
24 having marked as -- at least for
25 identification -- as Exhibit No. 78.
192
1 THE COURT : Okay.
2 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Um, we'll be tendering
3 that as well.
4 Q (By Attorney Kratz) The last , uh , area of
5 inquiry I have for you , um, Agent Fassbender, uh ,
6 is a statement from Mr. Dassey. Uh, although
7 we're not going to be discussing the, uh, March 1
8 or earlier statements in November , um, I
9 understand that you , individually , that is, you
. 10 alone , spoke to Mr . Dassey on February 27 ; is
11 t hat right?
12 A Myself and another DC! agen t , uh , spoke wi th him, uh,
13 his mother, and his b rother, who also present at that
14 time .
15 Q Where did that take place?
16 A At the , uh, resort motel in Mishicot, uh , later in
17 the eveni ng. I think it was, uh , after 1 0:00 p.m.
18 Q All right . On the 27th of February -- By the
19 way, this was 2006 ; is that right?
21 Q This was before the March 1 admissions were
22 obtained from Mr. Dassey; i s that right?
23 A It was on the evening of February 27 .
24 Q Would you agree that this was characterized as a
25 witness interview?
193
1 A Yes .
2 Q And at that t ime wa s t he topi c of any bl each or
3 bleach stai ns brought up?
4 A Yes , it was .
5 Q Describe for the jury how that came up, please?
6 A Well , I recei ved information about Mr . Dassey having

7 some bleach stains on some jeans , and that being a
8 resul t of , uh , cleaning Steven Avery's garage floor .
9 Acting on that information , I went to the motel where
10 Mr . Dassey ' s mother and his brother were located, and
11 I i nquired about that , and Mr . Dassey advised that ,
12 uh , ye s , he had some j eans that he was wearing that
13 evening , October 31 , 2005 , uh, when he was assisting
14 Steve Avery in cleaning up a garage Steve Avery's
15 garage floor , because it had some stains on it.
16 Uh , when asked what he thought he was
17 clea ning up, uh , a nd t he colo r of t hose stai ns ,
18 he described them initia lly as dark red , uh , but
19 he believed, urn , that they were oil stains, uh ,
20 from some vehicles or such .
21 Uh , upon fur t her spea king with him , uh ,
22 he des c ribed the s t ains as red i n color , because
23 the rags or the cloth s they were using to c l ean

24 up the stains appeared red on the cloths .
25 When asked wh at he used to c l ean up the
194
1 stains , he advised t hat the y init ial ly t ried
2 gasoline. Um, that worked a little , and then
3 they used paint thinner, uh , and that may have
4 worked a little more he thought, and, then,
5 ultimately, they used bleach on the garage floor,
6 uh, to finish the cleanup.
7 He said that the rags they used to clean
8 up the substance Steven threw in the, uh, fire
9 that was going, um , behind -- in a burn area
10 behind Steven Avery's garage .
11 And, again, when asked, um, about what
12 he thought the substance was, if he thought it
13 could have been b lood, and he said, yeah , he
14 tho ught it could have been blood , and said, when
15 asked what do you think to this date, which woul d
16 have been February 2 7, he believed it to be
17 blood.
18 Q And so the jury understands, and I know that
19 later in the week we'll hear of this, but t hat
20 Mar -- that, uh , February 27 statement, then,
21 caused you and Investigator Wiegert to
22 re-interview Mr . Dassey two days later on the 1st
23 of March; is that correct?
24 A That was one of the things .
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: At this time, Judge, I
195
1 will move the admission of Exhibits 15 through
2 7 8 , and have no f u rther questions of this witness
3 at this time . Than k you.
4 THE COURT : Any objection , Counsel?
5 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I think jus t as to 78,
6 t h ere might be a second item on that that hasn ' t
7 been - - j u st that fi r st overview t h at we saw?
8 ATTORNEY KRATZ : The re is a second , uh,
9 animation , Judge, and if that is p layed , uh , that
10 will , uh , be identified and , uh , descri b e d through
11 our anthropologist , Dr. Eisenberg, later this wee k .
12 But I'm not offering it at this time.
13 THE COURT : You - - You ' re offeri n g t he part
14 of 78 that we ' ve seen , which is the virtual tou r?
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Just the scene mode l , yes ,
16 Judge .
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : With that , no objection .
18 THE COURT: Al l right . The y ' re received .
19 They'll be received then . Cross?
20 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Thank you, Your
21 Honor .
22 CROSS- EXAMINATION
23 BY ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN :
24 Q Agent Fassbender, uh , h o w l o ng have you been
25 e mployed wi t h DCI ?
1 96
1 A Twenty-two years about.
2 Q And prior to that , you were also a state
3 employee, uh, as - - as a trooper ; is that
4 correct?
5 A For five years , yes.
6 Q Or state patrol? However you want to
7 characterize it?
8 A Correct .
9 Q Okay . Now, is it fa ir to say that from t he
10 perspective of who's in charge of this overall
11 investigat i on, that became yourself as well as
12 Wiegert from Calumet County ; correct?
14 Q Prior to getting the phone call , as you indicated
15 in your direct , from your superior , you really
16 didn't have much information about t h is incident;
17 is that r ight?
18 A That ' s correct . Just from the media .
19 Q Now, early on , you testified that by the time you
20 arrived at the Avery property, quote , law
21 enforcement had c ontrol of the property . Is that
22 your understanding ?
23 A Yes .
24 Q And what time did you get there?
25 A Sh - - shortly after 2 p .m.
197
1 Q And on what day?
2 A Saturday, November 5, 2005.
3 Q Now, prior to that, law enforcement didn't
4 necessarily have control of the property;
5 correct?

7 Q In fact, there were individuals , who were
8 citizens , who were kind of traipsing around
9 there?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. And they were looking for any signs
12 connected to Teresa? Is that a fair statement?
13 A To my knowledge , yes, two -- two citizens went to
14 that salvage yard to obtain permission to look
15 through it . Yes .
16 Q Okay. And, in fact, they got permission from
17 members of the Avery family; correct?
18 A Yes. Earl Avery.
19 Q Who asked you to become , as you testi f ied , t he
20 lead investigator?
21 A I believe Sheriff Jerry Page l. Calumet County
22 Sheriff .
23 Q As you understood it , when you arrived and made
24 your way down there by the RAV 4, whi ch I believe
25 was depicted in Exhibit No. 23 , uh, no one had
198
1 been inside of the vehicle ; correct?
2 A No. The vehic le was found in a locked condition .
3 Q So someb ody tried to get in?
4 A I don' t understand that . Not to my knowledge no one
5 tried to get in .
6 Q How do you know it was locked? Somebody would
7 have to check a doo r , would the y not, to see if
8 it was locked? You testified it ' s locked . How
9 do you know that?
10 A Uh, one of the Sturms , with one of the citizens, that
11 went on the property t o look , um , used a tissue to
12 try the door handles, yes .
13 Q Okay . So somebody did try to get in?
14 A Yes. I -- I took it to mean an apparent effort to --
15 that was physically visible . I'm sorry. I
16 misunderstood the question.
17 Q And we've seen the photographs of what the RAV 4
18 looked l ike when it was found . Urn, who, if you
19 know, was there guarding or securing t he RAV 4
20 whe n you showed up around two o 'clock?
21 A I ' m not sure who was g uardi ng the RAV 4 at that time .
22 To my knowledge --
23 Q You indicated -- Go ahead.
24 THE COURT : Well , let him finish .
25 A My knowledge was that Calumet Cou - - or , uh ,
199
1 Mani towoc County Deputies initiall y did that , and
2 then when Calumet County personnel got there, uh,
3 they took over. But I 'm no t sure of the exact time
4 that the Calumet County Deputy took over. I b e lieve
5 it was somewhere around -- between t wo and three ,
6 three -thirty.
7 Q (By Attorney Ede l stein) But you don't have a
8 specific recollection of whe t her it wa s Calumet,
9 or Manitowoc, or who was standing there when you
10 got there ; is that what you're telling us?
12 Q All right. Now, you indicated that prior to
13 anything happening with the RAV 4, t h e lab
14 people -- And we 're talking about your folks from
15 your agency from Madison were called; right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And they showed up; correct ?
18 A Correct .
19 Q And I believe you testified that t h e items around
20 t h e RAV 4, whi ch you described as h avi n g been
21 used to concea l it , were processe d; correct?
22 A Exami n e d might be a b etter term . Processed .
23 Q Well , let -- let ' s -- Was it a visual examination
24 only, to your knowledge?
200
1 Q So there were no forensic tests made at that time
2 at that location?
3 A Not to my knowledge .
4 Q Were you present from the time t hat you got t here
5 and saw what was the secured, or should have been
6 the secured, RAV 4, until the t i me the vehicle
7 was physically loaded up into the encl osed
8 trailer?
9 A I was not present at the RAV 4, no. I was on scene,
10 but I was not present at the RAV 4.
11 Q All right . So if the if the lab personnel did
12 anything beyond a visual inspection , you weren't
13 there to see it?
15 Q But as lead investigator, you keep up with the
16 things that t he lab people do in the course of
17 the inves tigation?
18 A I try to, yes.
19 Q Well, that ' s kind of important, isn't it?
20 A Yes.
21 Q In fact, a lot of times you have the -- in
22 con junction with others involved, the authority
23 to make specific requests of the lab for
24 processing for evidentiary items?
25 A Correct.
201
1 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Your Honor , may I
2 approach?
3 (No verbal response.)
4 Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Agent , with respect to
5 Exhibit No. 26 , you saw it paraded in here
6 earlier by t wo different law enforcement
7 officers ; right?
8 A Ye s.
9 Q And this is what you describe as the hood that
10 was laying up against the RAV 4?
11 A Yes .
12 Q And I believe you testified in response to
13 Mr . Kratz 's inquiry t hat it was pretty heavy?
14 A Yes .
15 Q And would -- you -- in you r opinion , you thought
16 it would take two peop l e to move i t?
17 A Two people to easily manage it I think is how h e ' d
18 as ked the quest ion . Not just move it, but how to
19 properly or easily manage it .
20 Q Okay . So you ' re not suggesting to th i s jury that
21 one person would be unable to move this about?
22 A No , I 'm n ot .
23 Q Have you ever picked it up?
24 A Couple days ago . Last wee k, I believe, I tried to
25 pick it up and I can lift it .
202
1 Q Okay. Would it surprise you if I said I could
2 li ft it?
3 A If you can get your arms around it, no, it wouldn' t .
4 Q Okay. You got a little bigger wing
5 A Yes .
6 Q -- span than I do?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. So you - - to t he extent that one
9 individual in otherwise relatively good health
10 could move it , you wouldn ' t take argument wi t h
11 that , would you?
12 A No .
13 Q Okay. You never weighed that, did you?
14 A No, I haven ' t.
15 Q Never asked the lab to weigh it , did you?
16 A I didn't ask them to weigh i t. I don ' t know if t h ey
17 did .
18 Q Did you ask them? I 'm sorry .
19 A I did not ask them to weigh it .
20 Q But it was taken to the lab?
21 A They took it wi t h the RAV 4 . Yes .
22 Q And do you know, as part of your investigation in
23 this case , being the lead investigator, there are
24 no fi ngerprints on that that match Brendan
25 Dassey ; correct?
203
1 A Correct.
2 Q You also know that there ' s no fluids of any type ,
3 no tissue of a ny type , no fibers of any type ,
4 that are connected to Brendan Dassey ; right?
5 A Related to that hood?
6 Q Yes, sir.
7 A Correct .
8 Q Let's go back fo r a second here to the RAV 4 .
9 When you first got there , um, it ' s your
10 understanding the vehicle was locked; right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And the purpose of having all these -- these
13 people ther e involved in this And you
14 described this as -- as starting off as a , uh,
15 missing persons type case; correct?
16 A Yes .
17 Q Was there a reason why the RAV 4 was not opened
18 at that point if you ' re looking for someone who
19 you're hoping is still alive?
20 A Because , uh , law enforcement officers loo ked in the
21 windows of the RAV 4 and did not see Teresa in the
22 vehicle .
23 Q Now , during the course of your direct exam, you
24 described from the aeria l photographs a line of
25 vehicles, and you testified that thos e were ,
204
1 quote, cars waiting to be crushed ; right? You
2 remember that?
3 A I remember that question being asked. I didn't

4 necessarily agree that they were waiting to be
5 crushed , but there's a line of vehicles along the
6 back of the property.

7 Q All right. So you don't have an opinion as to
8 what the status of any of the particular vehicles
9 of the 4,000 found on the property may have been
10 on any given date during that seven-day period of
11 time that police controlled the property?

12 A With the exception of maybe some vehicles that were
13 being prepared to be crushed, uh, like in t he shop,
14 or around the shop where they're getting items
15 removed so they can be crushed , like gas tanks, or
16 whatever it has to be removed from a vehicle .
17 Q Okay. And -- and you are aware that in this type
18 of business certain items do have to be removed
19 before they would properly be placed into the
20 crusher , including things that hold fluids? For

21 example , gasoline tanks?
22 A Properly , yes.
23 Q Now, you testified, and correct me if I 'm wrong,

24 in response to Mr. Kratz ' s hypothetical , that if
25 Teresa ' s vehicle had e nded up , shall we say, as a
205
1 sandwich in between other vehicles that the --
2 t hat had been processed throu g h t h e crusher , that
3 i t would h a ve b een di ffic ult to loca te the
4 vehicle . Do you remember testify i n g to t hat?
5 A Yes , I do.
6 Q Now, you ' ve been an officer, what , 27 years or
7 so?
8 A Correc t .
9 Q Okay . And when you showed us the pictures of the
10 vehicles that had , i n fact , been crushed, it ' s
11 fair to say t h at i t would be relatively easy to
12 identify the color of the vehicle , would it not?
13 A Potenti ally , yes .
14 Q And you testi -- Well , what -- what do you mean ,
15 " potentially" ?
16 A When I looked at t h at , some vehicles you cou l d
17 clearly see the colo r and others ma ybe you couldn ' t .
18 I mean --
19 Q Well , you tes
20 A -- depends on the manner that it was crushed.
21 Q Well , you testified that with the state troopers
22 and the other volunteers , be they firemen or
23 whoever , every single vehic le , including the
24 squashed or crushed vehicles , had bee n e xamined?
25 A Yes . The y too k them apart , they uncrushed them, each
206
1 vehicle, and looked at them.
2 Q Well, did they uncrush them or did they simply
3 separate them?
4 A Separated them
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- and opened them up . If you want to call it

7 uncrushed, if you want to say separated or opened up.
8 Q Okay . So, obviously, somebody had some equipment
9 which was capable of -- let -- let ' s say that
10 the -- the roof had been flattened on a vehicle .
11 Somebody had equipment to either enlarge it or
12 remove it so as to be able to have a peek inside?
13 A Equipment was brought in. I know they were using the
14 Jaws of Life on occasion to do some of that work.

15 Q Okay. In addition to , uh -- And the purpose , of
16 course , of looking inside , would be to see if
17 there 's any sign of human remains ; cor rect?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Okay. But to the extent that you tes t ifie d it ' d
20 be difficult to locate , assuming you were able to
21 determine a particular color, there are other

22 methods by which to determine the ex- -- the
23 precise existence of a given vehicle besides the

24 color; correct?
25 A Well, certainly.
207
1 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I 'm sorry. May I
2 interpose an objection? Is he t alking about a l aw
3 enforcement officer with Jaws of Life or some

4 citizen searcher? If he could be more specific with
5 his questions?
6 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I -- I have - - I

7 can do, that, Judge.
8 THE COURT: Okay . Go ahead.
9 Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Officers have access , if
10 you wil l , to information to determine the, urn,
11 identity of vehicles that the general public does

12 not ; correct or incorrect?
13 A Well , with the internet nowadays I don ' t know if
14 that's necessarily t rue, but to -- to run i dentifying
15 numbers --
16 Q Correct .
17 A -- through 0.0.T . , yes , we can do that .
18 Q Okay . There ' s areas , be it on the frame , it

19 might be different locations, t hat are basically
20 hidden intentionally by the manufact urer to

21 assist in vehicle indication ; right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. So given that, that you have the ability

24 to identify the hidden VINs , and , uh, looking at
25 colors , and do you still stand by your assertion
208
1 that had this vehicle been in the middle of a --
2 a crushed sandwich, so to speak , that it would
3 have been diff i cult to locate?
4 A My response was just a vis u al observation. If
5 someone was walking by or looking at t hose piles of
6 cars, it would be diff icult to locate. That was not
7 with the understanding that I'm going to go and
8 un-sandwich the vehicles , tear them apart and dig
9 through them .
10 Q Okay. So if it was just kind of a -- Correct me
11 if I 'm wr ong . As I understand your testimony ,
12 you ' re saying if somebody simply does sort of a
13 c u rsory walk- through , yo u mi ght miss it? It
14 might be difficult to locate ?
15 A I believe it wo uld , yes.
16 Q Okay. But if somebody takes the time to actually
17 look careful l y at each of the vehicles , including
18 those that mig ht be sandwiched, um, knowing
19 things like color and age of the vehi cle , it
20 probably wouldn ' t have been that hard?
21 A It depe nds on the amount of work you put in. We
22 brought a lot of equipment in and - - and tore the
23 vehicles open and apart to do that. It took almost a
24 whol e day.
25 Q No w, you testified abo ut creating these teams ,
209
1 uh , to do things on the 5th, uh , following the --
2 the search warrant for a protective sweep ;
3 correct?
4 A Yes .
5 Q Did you decide who would be on these teams?
6 A I don't believe I was involved in t he teams that went
7 out and did the -- the sweeps and the search for
8 Teresa . The ini tial s earch .
9 Q Whe re were you when that occurred?
10 A I was with the dog and the handler down by the RAV 4 ,
11 and then we continued searching along that line of
12 cars , and into an area in the Radandt pit to t h e
13 south of the Avery property.
14 Q Going back to , I t h ink it ' s 88 , the hood over
15 here , did you make any observations in the
16 immedia t e area of the RAV 4 to determine whe t her
17 or not that hood came from anywhere close to that
18 location?
19 A I did not.
20 Q To your knowledge , did anyone else?
21 A I don ' t know.
22 Q So you cannot tell us where , if at al l, that may
23 have come from before it was propped up against
24 the RAV 4?
210
1 Q And so I ta ke it , the n, you have no i nformation
2 relative to the, uh -- whet her or not the r e were
3 any footprints in the mud leading up to the RAV 4
4 that would have shown a path from the RAV 4 to a
5 location whe re the hood came from?
6 A That ' s assuming t here's mud and , um
7 Q Well, on -- on the day that you were there, what
8 was the condition of the ground?
9 A It was dry , a t least most of t he day, until the
10 torrential rains started and wiped everythi ng out .
11 Q Is it fair to say that during the course of your
12 i nvolvement in t he investigation, nobody produ ced
13 any type o f footprints in the junkyard area t ha t
14 connected to t he shoe prints developed off the
15 pattern of Brendan Dassey' s t ennis shoes?
16 A There were no footwear impressions obtained .
17 Q So t he answer to my question would be?
18 A No .
19 Q Thank you .
20 THE COURT : Counsel , before you go on , just
21 to correct the r e cord, I th i nk you iden t ified the
22 hood a s Exhibit 88? And it's really Exhibit 26.
23 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I ' m sorry.
24 THE COURT : It ' s okay .
25 Q (By Attorne y Ed elstein) I believe you said ,
211
1 Mr. Fassbender , that the RAV 4 was 350 feet from
2 the crushing device?
3 A About 350. I think it was a little more than that,
4 360, 367, something like that .
5 Q Is t hat a number that you personally arrived at
6 or is that a number you obtained from someone

7 else ?
8 A I believe that's a number obtained from Trooper
9 Austin ' s measurements.
10 Q Okay. Do you know, did he base that measurement
11 as the crow flies , or based upon the distance one
12 might have to travel from where it was, getting
13 around a little watery depression area over by
14 the, uh, crusher?
15 A My understand as the crow flies. My understanding is
16 as the crow flies.
17 Q Okay. Well , realistically, nobody's going to go
18 in a straight line from where the RAV 4 was over
19 to that crusher in 350 feet, would they?
20 A Correct.
21 Q So you when we talk proximity , then, and
22 you ' re tal king about closeness to the - - to the
23 crusher, it really was more than the 350 feet you
24 testified to? As as a practical matter?
25 A If I were to walk it or drive it, it would be more
212
1 than that.
2 Q Okay. Agent Fassbender, you testified about
3 Exhibit 60 and 59 ; right? You iden --
4 A Yes.
5 Q You identified them as handcuffs?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Where did 60 come from?
8 A If t hose were the two that were presented to me a t
9 the same time , I was unsure. I said that one pair of
10 handcuffs came out of the Da Dassey/Janda
11 residence and one came out of Steven Avery residence,
12 I believe.
13 Q All right . It is true, however, that neither one
14 of t he exhibits , be it 59 or 60 , came f rom the
15 bedr oom area where Brendan Dassey lived or slept;
16 correct?
17 A That's true .
18 Q All right. It didn't -- Neither one of them came
19 from an area that you would characterize as his
20 area? His room?
21 A Correct.
22 Q In fact , it's more accurate to say that both of
23 them came from areas that were probably
24 controlled, or appeared to be controlled , one by
25 Steve Avery, one by his mother?
213
1 A Yes.
2 Q When I speak of the mother, I'm talking about
3 Brendan's mother; right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And that's how you understood the question?
7 Q We're not talking about Steve Avery's mother?
8 A No. I understood it to b e Barb Tadych.
9 Q Okay . Again, 59 and 60 , whichever one came out
10 of the Avery place, whichever one came from
11 Barb's bedroom, they went to the lab; right?
12 A The ones out of , uh, the Janda/Dassey residence I
13 don't believe went to the lab. I 'm --
14 Q Well --
15 A -- not positive without seeing the paperwork or
16 records.
17 Q The ones from the Avery property, they obviously
18 went to the lab?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Not one shred of physical evidence on the
21 handcuffs from the Steve Avery propert y
22 connecting Brendan Dassey to those handcuffs;
23 correct or incorrect?
24 A Correct.
25 Q No f inge rprints?
214
1 A No .
2 Q No DNA?
3 A There was DNA found on one of the sets of handcuffs
4 that was male DNA, and it excluded Teresa Halbach b ut
5 didn't exclude Stev en Avery.
6 Q Did not , i n any way, shape , or form include
7 Brendan Dassey ; correct?
8 A To my knowledge, no, without looking at t he -- t he
9 lab report .
10 Q Okay. I realize there were a lot of evidence in
11 this case , and I 'm not trying to put you on the
12 spot , but we all know it ' s very important a n d t he
13 jury 's entitled to know; right?
14 A Correct .
15 Q Okay . If , during the course of my exam , if
16 there 's something you're not sure about , you need
17 to l ook at your notes , by all means let us know
18 and we 'l l take a break and we ' ll take a look at
19 them. Let's talk about Exhibit 61 and 62 .
20 Again , where did these come from?
21 A Are there three sets of those , uh , behind that hood?
22 Q No , sir .
23 A Just two sets of leg ir -- leg irons?
24 Q Yes , sir.
25 A Those would have come out of , uh , Ms. Tadych' s
215
1 bedroom.
2 Q Both sets?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I had testified that one set came out of Steven
6 Avery's house, because I thought -- as they were

7 being brought up, I thought I had seen three sets.
8 Q Okay . So being l ike any other human, any other
9 o f f i cer, you make mistake; right?

10 A Wel l, there was a pair of l eg irons ta ken out of
11 Steven's house, and just the way they were b rought
12 up, I thought I had seen -- because I saw one pair,
13 and then two were brought up later, so I thought I

14 had seen three sets of leg i rons.
15 Q I understand. But -- So you're attempting ,
16 simply, to correct what you told Mr. Kratz on
17 direct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Which you acknowledge to this jury was an error?
20 A Yes .
21 Q All right. And that happens because you're a
22 human; right?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Ne i ther one of these, that being Exhibits 61 or
25 62, has any fingerprints on it that be l onged to
216
1 Brendan Dassey ; correct?
2 A Correct .
3 Q Neither one of them has any DNA evidence
4 connecting either one of these items to Brendan
5 Dassey; correct?
6 A Correct . With the caution t hat I 'm not positive they
7 were processed. I'd have to look at the Crime Lab
8 reports to make sure.
9 Q Okay. Well, if we take a break, you'd certainly
10 do that for us , wouldn't you? And we'll revisi t
11 that when we get a chance?
12 A Certainly, if you'd like.
13 Q I believe you testified about, and I can't recall
14 the, uh -- t he exhibit number , but it was one of
15 the Austin depictions with the Avery garage roof
16 removed. Remember that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And I believe you testified about two pieces or
19 two fragments of bullets that you believe were
20 located within that garage ; right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Would you agree with me that the Austin depiction
23 of that particular garage, to the extent that i t
24 does not include a great many items that were
25 actually physically present at the time when you
217
1 first got t here , um, that the Aus tin exhibit
2 doesn't necessarily show reality?
4 Q In fact , I t hi nk you called it a cleaned-up
5 version?
6 A Yes . There ' s a lot of debris t hat was not included
7 in that depiction.
8 Q Well , wasn't just debris, t he r e we re a lot of
9 items that were not included?
10 A By debris, items. I mean, I 'm
11 Q I -- I thi nk of --
12 A I agree --
13 Q debris as something you might throw a way?
14 THE COURT : One at a time . Go a head.
15 A Items are incl ude d in my definition of debris , so ,
16 yes, items, debris , pieces of machinery, property .
17 Q Exhibit 58 , these are t he jeans t hat you got from
18 Brendan after he basically showed them to you;
19 right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay . You testified they appear to have bleach
22 on them; right?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Okay . These went to the lab, did they not?
25 A I believe so , yes .
218
1 Q No human blood on there, is there?
2 A No.
3 Q No blood of any kind on there, is there ?
4 A I was advised that they had been cleaned.
5 Q Pardon me?
6 A I was advised that they had been washed.
7 Q All right.
8 A But, no, there was no b l ood of any kind on there.
9 Q Twenty-seven years in the business, yo u work
10 closely with the lab, are you telling me that the
11 fact that those jeans may have been laundered
12 once, or even twice, say, between October 31 --
13 and I think you picked him up on -- What day?
14 The 1st?
15 A March 1 --
16 Q 0 kay.
17 A -- '06.
18 Q Let's say they'd been laundered in bet ween, are
19 you telling me that the lab would be incapable of
20 determining the presence of blood on those jeans?
21 A Greatly reduced, if at all possible.
22 Q I understand you ' re not an expert, but you've had
23 occasion to have items examined by the l ab that
24 have, in fact, been laundered, haven't you?
25 A I may have. I don't have, uh, independent knowledge
219
1 right now, and in my instances they have not found
2 blood on those items if -- if it's occurred. I -- I
3 don't recollect ever having that happen.
4 Q Now, you talked briefly about some conversation
5 you had with Brendan , and this was up at , uh, Fox
6 Hills Resort ; right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q He stayed there and his brother stayed there, I
9 think , on the 27th?
10 A Yes . And his mother.
11 Q Okay. And who picked up the tab for that stay?
12 A That may have been, uh, the county. I 'm not sure.
13 Q It was arranged, and you were well aware that it
14 was arranged , that they would be staying there ,
15 and could stay there , and it wouldn't cost them
16 anything; right?
17 A Certainly.
18 Q Okay. Be it the State, Calumet County , Manitowoc
19 County , you knew the government picked up the
20 bil l ?
21 A Government picked - - Yes.
22 Q All right. In fact , when you went up there , it
23 was about 11:50 at night; right? I'm talking
24 about --
25 A I ' m not sure .
220
1 Q -- Fox Hills.
2 A 10:50 or 11:50. I -- I --
3 Q Did I say --
4 A Yeah .
5 Q 11 : 50?
6 COURT REPORTER: One at a time ,
7 please
8 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I 'm sorry .
9 COURT REPORTER : if possible.
10 Q (By Attorney Edelstein) 10: 5 0 sound better?
11 A That sounds better.
12 Q And du ring the course of that conversation you
13 had with Brendan, um, you're talking to him about
14 an incident where he had, um, some bleach stains
15 on his pants ; right?
16 A Correct.
17 Q And you got around to talki ng to him about what
18 he was doing in t he garage , and you ta lked about
19 cleaning up some red stuff?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay . And the truth of the matter is,
22 Mr. Fassbender , t hat during the course of that
23 conversation with Brendan, the first person to
24 use the word -- or to suggest that it was blood
25 on the floor wa s , in fact , yourself. Does that
221
1 sound right?
2 A That's -- Yes, t hat sounds right .
3 Q All right. It wasn't Brendan who said, I thought
4 I was cleaning up blood . Right?
6 Q You asked him, could it have been blood? And he

7 simply said, could have been . Right?
8 A After he described the color , yes.
9 Q Okay. So you asked him i f it could have been
10 blood, and he said , yes, it could have been .
11 Right?
12 A Something to that effect, yes.
13 Q And then you asked him -- and we're talking about
14 February 27 , '06, you gave him a question to the
15 effect that , well, what do you think it was now?
16 And we're talking about that present time.
17 February 26; right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. Um, and he said, could have been blood .
20 A He said he believed it was blood.
21 Q Okay. And those responses came after you
22 indicated that it could have been blood or you
23 thought it was blood; correct?
24 A After my question.
25 Q All right .
222
1 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: That's all .
2 THE COURT: Any redirect , Counsel?
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Couple of questions,
4 just so that we're clear.
7 Q Investigator Fassbender, are you -- or do you now
8 have an independent memory of how many sets of
9 leg irons and how many sets of handcuffs came
10 from the bedroom of Barb Janda on the 1st of
11 March?
12 A To the best of my memory, two sets of l eg irons and
13 two sets of handcuffs.
14 Q If, uh, we would show you the evidence bags, that
15 is, the the actual containers in which the
16 handcuffs, uh, were placed i n on the 1st of
17 March, would that tend to refresh your
18 recollection of that?
19 A Yes, it would.
20 Q I'm going to have, uh, Mr. Fallon here bring you
21 Evidence Tag 8266 and 8267 . Have you take a look
22 at those and tell me if that refreshes your
23 memory?
24 A The bag , uh, with Evidence Tag No. 8266 contained one
25 pair of silver handcuffs, uh , taken from the bedroom
223
1 of Barb Janda at the time , Barb Tadych , now . And
2 Evidence Tag 8267 contai n e d one pair of silver
3 handcu ff s also taken from t hat same bedroom . Uh,
4 Barb Janda's b edroom .
5 Q So how many pairs of handcu ffs did Barb have in
6 h er bedroom?
7 A So two pair of h a ndcuffs in her bedroom .
8 Q So the jury unde r stands, and they' ll hear from
9 Deputy Kucharski tomorrow, but there were
10 handcuffs and leg irons also recovered from the
11 bedroom of Steven Avery ; is that right?
12 A Yes .
13 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I t hink that 's it from
14 t h is witness , Judge . Thank you
15 THE COURT : All right . Uh , the witness may
16 step down . Any f urther witnesses?
17 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Uh , I would prefer to
18 start at , uh - - tomorrow morning , Judge , with our
19 other law enforcement , uh, witnesses , if that would
20 be okay wi th the Cou rt?
21 THE COURT : All right . Tomor row
22 morning , 8:30?
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Sounds good .
24 THE COURT : Uh, jurors , we ' re going to
25 adjourn for t h e day . I ' m going to remind you again ,
224
1 I 'm sure this is going to get tedious listening to
2 me saying -- say this, but you can't talk about this
3 case with anybody, including fellow jurors. We'll
4 see you tomorrow morning at 8 : 30 .
6 THE COURT: Anything further on the
7 record this afternoon, gentlemen?
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No, Judge.
10 (Court stands adjourned at 4:38 p.m .)
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225
)SS.
4 I , Jennifer K. Hau , Official Court
5 Reporter for Circuit Court Branch 3 and the Stat e
8 transcript has been carefully prepa red by me with
11 transcription thereafter transcribed , and that it
15 Dated this / 11.fj. day of D.tc1mWL 1 2007 .
16
17
18
19 J n i f K . Hali,RPR
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226
I lstl8] 48/8 172112 172/1 7173/23 195/22 4,100 (2] 43/ 17 182122
219/14 223/ 10 223/ 16 40 [3) 32/9 33/20 167/ 15
'02 [11 104/15 40-acre (2] 49/11 142/5
'OS [I) 106/ 12 2 41 {1] 168/1
'06 [2) 219/1 7 222/ 14 20 (51 3/3 47/22 83/15 143/24 144/3 4211] 168/17
'85 [1) 31 / 10 2003 [11 31/3 4312] 168/14 168/17
'85 case Ill 31/10 2004 (ll 119/13 431 fl] 99/15
. 2005 [18) 28/24 29/7 29/9 29/16 40/ l I 82/21 44 (1) 17013
108/5 109/11 109/16 110/21 11114 120/15 45 [2) 170/14 180/10
.22 [7) 37/23 67/l 72/23 72/25 7316 73/8 122114 134/4 134/6 174/9 194/ 13 198/2 46 (l) 170/22
189/6 200612] 176/4 193/ 19 47111 171/20
.22 caliber 141 72123 72125 73/6 189/6 2007 (2] 1/10 226/ 15 470 [l) 99/16
21121 146/8 147/1 48 (3] 145/9 173/16 173/17
0 21-82 [I) 3/5 49 [2] 173/ 1 17317
06 121 1/5 4/3 22 (1] 147/9 4:30 [1] 160/20
223 (1] 3/16 4:37 p.m [1) 225/5
1 223-224 [lJ 3/17 4:38 (1 I 225/ l o
1,200 [1) 183/2 22411) 3/ 17 4th 141 48/13 11 3/18114/9114/1 7
1-10 [1] 3/19 23 (8) 71/23 7218 72/ l l 72112 146/25 147/24
10 [SI 3/19 53/18 8617 119/10 120/19 189/3 198/25 5
100 percent 121 45/20 72116 23-A fl] 189110 5-20 111 3/3
102-122 [1) 3/9 24 [3J 148/25 150/21 151/2 50 (1 J 173120
10:00 on [1) 120/14 25 [3J 28/24 150112 150/13 50-plus (I I 156/3
10:00 p.m [t) 193/17 25-year-old [4) 29/ 12 63/14 66/23 82/12 51 12] 172/3 l 7214
10:13 (1] 53/25 26 (51 149/22 149/24 20215 211/22 222/17 52 [1] 174/2
10:30 121 34/6 48/23 27110] 55/ 16 5617153/10 176/4 193/ 10 53 [1] 174/ IO
10:32 [11 54/1 193/23 195/16 195/20 206/6 222/14 54 (l ) 174/ 15
10:50 (2] 221/2 22\ /10 27th [21 193/18 220/9 55 [1) 178/ 1
10th [II 50/3 28 [2) 155/6 155/20 56[2] 178/ 14178/ 17
11 [6( 3/20 72122 107/ 10 12517 132/ 17 14217 29 [IJ 156/25 57 (I I l 78120
110 [II 99/ 15 2:00 (3) 38/20 46/21 48/24 58[41175/25176/1176/22 18117
11:30111 142111 2:2712) 47/19 47121 59 [5] 176/10 176/12 213/3 213114 214/9
11:40 Ill 98/10 2:27 p.m [1) 47/10 5:00 (11 160/19
11 :40 a.m 111 98/4 2:30 (1] 47/ l 5:00 his (1) 83/12
11:43 [11 46/16 2:37 p.m (1] 160123 5:30 [II 83/ 15
11:50 (2) 22112 221/5 2:4014) 47/21 48/5 5517 162/2 5:30 to [11 83/19
11:50 at (1] 220/23 2d [21 99/15 99/1 6 5:45 Blaine's [11 83/23
11th (1] 50/8 2nd fll 48/8 5th 1111 3417 48/23 115/9 116/l 145/ 19
12 (9] 3/21 10/6 14/1 4 17/19 130/4 13017 146/ 16 16217 162/14 16717 179116 210/1
130/12 132/18 142111 3
120 (1) 3/19 3-D 15( 183/20 184/4 18511 185/23 189/20 6
122 [31 3/9 3/ 10 3/ 19 30 (4) 108/5110/21 lll/4158/ 17 60 18) 158/2 176/10 176/12 180/10 213/3
123-132 (II 3/12 30th [6) 108/910911120/14120/ 15 131/6 21317 2 13/14 214/9
13 (l2) 3/22 91/ 12 99/2 100/1 5 100/1 6 131117 60-plus [l) 180/8
100/22 101/9 12717127/1 0 127/18132/15 31112] 46/6 76/5 76/ 10 80/22 82121 86/J I 61 (31 176/21215/19216124
161/5 108/10 119/19169/2 174/9 194/ 13 219/12 62 (3) 176/2 1 215/19216/25
132 [81 3/12 3/20 3/20 3/21 3/2 1 3/22 3/23 31st [25] 30/6 46/4 4617 52/1 1 65/ 1 7112 63 [JI 183/5
3/23 75/9 79/16 80125 106/12 109/4 109111 64 (1 I 183119
133-196 [1) 3/15 109/15 112/1 5 112/25 113/5 11317 113/10 65 [l] 184/3
14 (7) 3/23 12917 129/10 132/8 132/9 132/10 113/ 14 127/25 167/1 2 173125 177/91 77/15 6611] 184/10
132118 178/22 67 [11 184/1 5
147 (5) 143/21143/22 144/2 159123 171/18 32 [2] 157/20 157/22 69 [2) 185/9 185/10
15 (9) 53/24 84/10 119113 123/ 17 136/20 33 (11 159/13 6th 141 37/ 16 37/ 16 72/21 167/8
136/2 1 137/4 179/25 l 96/ l 34 (1] 163/ 19
15-77 (11 3/24 35 111 164/9
7
IS-minute [21 53/ 19 160/18 350 (41 156/15 158/2 212/1 21213 70 [21 184/25 185/17
16 (2) l/10 139/8 350 feet [2] 21 2/19 212/23 71 [1 J l 85122
16-year-old [3) 90/1 2 90/ 13 93/12 36111 164/21 72 [1) 186110
161 111 3/22 360 (11 21214 73 [1) 186/25
162 (1) 3/22 367111 21 2/4 74 [II 187/ 13
17 (1/ 140/ 1 37 [lJ 165/3 75 [2) 188/5 188/6
18 [2] 141/8 141/9 38 [l) 165/25 76(11 188/13
180 [2] 44/16 44/1 6 39 (11 167/2 77 [2 I 3/24 188/21
181 [lj 99/ 16 3:04 [ll 162/3 78161 3/25 192119 192125 196/2 196/5
19121 142/21 142123 3:27 (1) 47/20 196/ 14
192111 3/25 3:40 [1) 47/21 7:30 and (I) 75/1 0
196 [SJ 3/15 3/24 3/24 3/25 3/25 3:45 (1] 55/9 7:45 in [lj 75/ 10
196-223 (11 3/16 3:45 from [1] 82/22 7th f51 38/23 39116 4917 164/3 164/8
1985 [21 3114 31 /14 3rd (7] 29/ 16 48/9111110 11217 112/13
1999 (31 14612 146/11 14911 113/17 114/8
8
1:00 [1] 98/11 82 (1] 3/5
1:07 [1] 102110 4 82-97 [ll 3/6
1:30111 46125 4,000 (31 37/8 143/15 205/9 8266 121 223/2 1 223/24
214/7 215/16 215/19 217/13 217/18 220/4 197/25 218/18 222/8 222121 222/24
8 220/23 220/24 221/13 221/17 221/18 222113 afternoon 113) 46/15 47/22 48/5 98/17 10114
8267 (2] 223/21 224/2 222/16 225/2 101/25 102/21 113114134/20160/16 177/14
88 (4) 1/5 4/3 210/14 211/22 above [l) 185/24 177/14 225/7
8:12 [1) 30/15 absolutely (7] 44122 76/16 77/6 77/14 8119 afterwards Ill 161/11
8:12 a.m [I) 29/8 81110 147/6 ag (1) 166/14
8:12 in (l] 46/7 accept Ill 28/20 again (57) 25/4 27/3 28/17 34/19 3615 36/8
8:30 [2] 224/22 225/4 acceptance (3J 59/5 61/4 179/4 37/2 37/18 3812138/2440/\ 41/5 41/6 4611
8th 151 40/13 40/2141/2 41/17 49/14 access (5] 83/1156/23 171/6 171/13 208/9 50/17 51/18 58/4 59/25 64/3 66/8 66115
accesses [I J 83/2 70/19 72/25 77/17 78/2 84/11 86/1 90/10
9 accident[3J 114/21114/23115/18 101/12 119/21 140/13 144120 148/2 149/2
9-0-8-0-1 [l) tol/10 accompaniment [1) 152/13 149/11149/18 150/16 155120 157/22 16011 1
911 [1) 82/7 accomplice (1) 81/16 161/13 166/l 167/6174/12 183/15 183/20
939.05 (3) 8/19 13/4 16/9 accountability (l] 82/14 183/25 188/25 191/8191/10 191111 192113
940.01 llJ 10/15 accurate [7) 44/692/5 181/ 18 182/24182125 192/15 195/11214/9 215/20 224/25
940.11 [lj 14/23 189/l 213/22 against (14] 5/9 30/20 30121 34/5 57/22 97/5
940.225 (1] 18/3 accusation [1] 58/9 147/16148/8 148/15 149/18 149/25 166/15
97 Ill 3/6 achieved (1) 31/2 202/\0 210/23
9:07 [1) 4/1 acknowledge [1) 216/19 age [4] 5/1 0 124/16 125/25 209/19
9:30 [1) 86/6 acre (2) 49/11 14215 agencies [1] 113/19
9s [1) 42/3 acres [21 32/10 33/21 agency [l) 200/15
9th 161 49/20 49/22 49/24 52/6 118/5 168/18 act[ll) ll/16 ll/1711/21 11/23 Il/24 agent [24] 36/17 90/21 133/19 136/11 144/7
11/25 19/3 20/4 57122 60/3 60/4 149/20 161/10 162/6 164/I 165/6 167/IO
A acted 141 11/5 11/14 15/13 15/15 16917 172/7 177/4 179/15 18112185/8
a.m [7) 4/1 29/8 53/25 54/1 98/4 98/IO 142/7 acting [4) 9/10 13120 16/24194/9 189/ 17 190/1 193/5193/12 196124202/4
A310 [2] 80119 118/18 actively [8) 48/25 51/23 52/5 52/10 69/3 213/2
ab Ill 16/18 80/5 82/9 144/21 aggressive [2) 166/14166/24
abandoned [1) 137/22 actor Ill 28/10 ago [3) 129/14 130114 202/24
abet [7] 9/16 13/1914/117/6 27/20 28/4 acts (3] 11/3 1213 15/19 agree (16) 412110/614/1417/1928/18
28112 actual (2] 184/7 223/15 28/18 89/20 91/17 94/4 144/17 178/13 179/3
abets [61 9/5 919 13115 13/19 16/20 16/23 actually (20] 18/18 34/11 36/3 37/25 51110 193/24 205/4 217/22 218/12
abetted 111) 10/4 10/9 10/25 1117 12/23 51124 6513 73/22 75/7 77/J 79/2 79/5 79121 agreed 1416/2422/688/19177/5
14112 14/1715/8 16/2 17/18 17/22 87/3 11612 136/25 148/5 154/3 209/16 ahead [9] 29/5 35112 82120 112/19 142/3
abetting (5) 9/3 13/13 15/12 16/18 28/1 217125 172/11 199/23 208/8 218/14
abilities [l) 90/14 add 111 188117 aid (9] 9/16 12111 14/l 17/6 27120 28/4
ability [7] 62/4 93/13 931\3 103/8 103/9 adding Ill 18211 28/12 16117 161/13
208123 226/14 addition [1] 207/15 aided [12] 10/4 I0/9 10/25 11/7 12/23 14/12
able [46] 20/25 23/8 23/9 36/1137/1038/19 additional (lj 180/5 14/17 15/8 16/ l 1612 17/17 17/21
38/22 41/8 41125 42/5 42/22 43/5 43/23 address Ill 23/17 aiding [5) 9/2 13113 15/12 16/17 2811
43/24 44/3 45/1 53/1 54/8 54/16 60/14 75/22 addressed [1) 10214 aids 16] 915 919 13/15 13/ 18 16/19 16/23
76/9 80/4 81/5 96/16 105/18 112/12112/16 adjacent (3) 34120 180/18 180/22 air [3] 129/9 189/11 189/12
113/3 113/4 11 7/9 126/25 127/23 136/15 adjourn [2] 97/24 224/25 airplane [I) 115/2
165/16168/6 177/6177/11 177113 181116 adjourned (I] 225/10 Al 12] 138/10 141/23
181/24 182/3186/4189/21207112207120 admissible [JI 7/5 album (1] 187116
about [205] 7/10 15/18 22/3 22/12 22/12 admission (7) 7/4 58/11 59/4 6015 6311 alert [4) 153/3 153/4 153/5 163/8
23113 23/23 27/5 27/15 29/8 29125 30/3 132/4 196/l alerted (5] 154/4 154/8 154/11 154/18 163/6
30/1930/2131/131/132/933/13 34115 admissions [11) 56/l 58/J 6 58/16 58/17 alerting [l) 35121
37/24 38/4 39/23 40/11 40112 42/19 43/9 59/10 60/18 61/15 81/13 101/9 120/19 alive IS] 36123 36/24 76/7 163/1 204/19
44113 44/14 44/25 46/5 46122 46/25 47/15 193/21 all (169] 4/9 5/2 5113 8/6 10/6 12/3 12/4
47/16 47/21 47/21 48/19 48/24 49/3 49/6 admit 12) 58/1 61/1 12117 14/14 15119 15120 17/19 18/22 21/2
49113 49/15 49/23 50/6 50/2151/351/10 admitted (3) 3/18 162/l 179/6 21/9 23/3 23/11 25/23 26/17 26125 27/5
52/4 52119 53/4 53/11 5517 56/25 57/5 57/14 adopt 111 28/21 27/14 28/12 29/7 31/24 32/1 32/7 32/19
57/15 57/16 58/7 58/12 58118 58/21 58/24 ads [l) 29/22 32/22 33/15 36/4 36/13 37/1 3717 37/14
59/17 60/6 60/25 60/25 61/2 61/5 61110 adult [3) 42/23 90/20 90/23 40/12 42/11 42/18 43/6 44/10 44/25 45/3
61112 61/14 62/8 62/8 62111 63/1 64/4 64/10 adults (1) 95/7 45/3 49/11 53/2 53/5 5916 59122 59125 60/9
64/14 65/6 65116 66/2 66/17 68113 74118 advance (1) 10212 60/12 60119 61/4 62/15 62/16 62/17 63/14
75/3 75/ 11 75/ 17 75/19 78/8 78/ I l 7917 advanced (1) 38/8 65112 66/11 69/25 70/20 70/21 70/24 72/25
79112 80/2 82122 83/3 83/5 83/12 83/15 advised [4) 194/l l 195/1219/4219/6 73/9 73112 74/5 75/4 80/9 80/15 82/6 82/17
83/18 83/23 83/25 84/5 84/10 84/17 85/2 aerial (9] 33/9 48/15 115/2 136/21 157/22 88/20 96/4 96/13 96113 96119 97110 97/15
85/16 85/19 8616 87/21 89/18 89/23 89/24 159/11159/17190/6204/24 97/23 97/23 98/2 98/5 99/4 99/5 9916 102/7
89125 90/190/490/1190/1290/15 90/17 affairs [I) 20/5 103/12 104/12 105/6 105121 106/11 106119
9616 100/22 101/12 103120 103/22 104/12 affect [1) 5/10 107/18 l 07/24 107/25 I08/25 112/24 114/8
106/I 0 108/8 l08/20 I08/25 109/22 I09/23 affirmatively (l] 87125 114125 115/16 116/8 116/ 14 116119 ll 717
11 1/17 117/19 120/4 12 119 122/19 126/l afoot (1] 39/19 117/9117/15118/7119119120/8 122/2
127/1 128/12 128/15 129/19 134/16 138/16 after 163] 7123 7125 35/9 35/14 38/20 45/16 12214 122/8 124/7 124/11 124/12 125/16
139/16 141/8 142/2 144/12 144113 144/16 45/17 46/21 48/5 53/10 54/24 54/24 55110 129/24 131/5 131111 132/2 133/l 137/11
147/13 147/19148/12 153/4 153119 154/21 55/10 66/6 70/4 70/4 72/5 78/24 79/13 83/15 139/2 143117 147/8 148/19 149/7 154/23
156/12 156/15 156/24 15817 159/5 159/20 84/3 85/6 85/19 86/22 87/1 88/11 88/12 155/16 156124 159/3 160/22 161/22 162/1
160/14 162/10 165/23 166/18 167115 168/5 97/14100/8104/19105/1109/2111/11 168/13 170/22177/4 177/13 178/12 179113
172/1172/13 174/7 182/20 182124183/ 13 116/25120/13 120114125/17126120131117 180/1181/5 182/19 185/17 186117 191/22
187/19188/3 189/17 191/18 192/3 194/6 134/19 135/21 136114 144/15 144/20 146/16 192/13 193/18 196/18 200/12 201/11 203/8
194111 195/11 197/1 197/16 200/14 202121 151/3 154/10 154/17155/21 158/15 162/15 204112 205/7 210/22 213/13 213118 215/12
208/2 209/25 212/3 212122 2 13/2 214/2 163/10 168/18178/6 179116189/13 193/17 215/ 17 216/2121917219/2 1220122222/3
210/15 211/3 2 11/13 215/6 216/8 216/8 185/13 185/14 185/ 15 185/20 186/2 188/8
A 216/25 217/3 219/3 219/8 223/2 224/16 188/9191/19191/20193/4 195/9210/ 12
all.•. [4) 222/25 223/l 224/ 15 224/21 anybody [2) 116/10 225/3 210/16 211/ 13 212113 213/ 15 213/ 19 213/20
allegations fl] 97/5 anyone [3J 5/16 162121 210/20 areas flOJ 43/21 101/22 10517 115/16
Allen fl) 32/25 anything [15) 6/13 98/21 100/21 109/ 18 117/23 13917 140/6 182/6 208/18 2 13/23
allow [4] 53/9 58/20 88/ 12 10016 122118 125/4 125/23 128/6 134/21 145/12 aren't (3) 45/24 5815 81/3
allowed [I) 45/ 11 163/6 200113 201/12 220/ 16 225/6 argue fl ] 91/7
allowing (31 7/7 58/23 188/16 anytime 12) 11123 120/13 argument [3) 87/1 100/4 203/10
alluded (2] 30/19 91/2 anywhere [31 101118 180110 210/17 arguments (31 5/21 7/15 87/ 19
almost (3] 35/2 186/14 209/23 apart (3) 206/25 209/8 209123 arises (l] 20/8
alone (4] 69/12 87/2 90/25 193/ 10 apartment (2] 119/22 126121 arising [lJ 19/25
along (12) 115/16 137/23 140/11 145/6 apologize (31 46/2 82119 121/ 11 arm Ill 75/24
152112153/8158/10 169/18 169/2 1187/ 17 apparent (l] 199/14 arms (lJ 203/3
205/5 210/11 appealing (I] 93/ 15 around (32] 22113 29/23 64/25 84/ 17 84/ 19
alongside (l ) 114/20 appeals (1) 93/9 85/2 111119 128/ 19 128/25 129/3 136/23
already [21) 21/24 24/3 30/24 41/25 59122 appear (4) 4/12 147/4 176/5 218/21 139/ 1 140/5 149/2 150/24 152117 152/25
59/25 6019 60117 60119 65115 69/24 69/25 APPEARANCES (2) 1/12 4/4 163/25 166113 175/3 175/4181 /4190/12
70/175/1 878/2188/ 1491 /1 104/ 19141/6 appeared (41 1/24 166/ 14 194/24 213/24 191115 198/8 199/20 200/S 200/ 19 203/3
151/14179/11 appearing (2) 417 4/9 205/14 212/13 221/17
als fl] 110/6 appears (5] 4/5 147/ 1150/ 18 155/15 174/21 arranged [3J 167/ 19 220/13 220/14
also (76) 4/6 13/3 16/8 22120 29/6 32/18 33/4 applying Ill 144122 arrested (2) 49/2 1 49121
33/8 35/8 37/6 37/15 39/22 4017 42117 43/21 appointment (4] 30/ 15 38/ 10 106/4 113/13 arrival [5] 134/22 135/21 136/14 145/2 1
44/ IO 46/10 48/ 19 49/23 50/24 51125 56/2 appointments (2] 115/1 5 119/ 17 146/22
57/9 6016 6317 64113 7515 75/20 76/25 79124 appreciable (l] 11/ 19 arrive fl[ 144113
91/24 95/9 96110 103/6 105/4 105/13 105/22 appreciate [21 37/10 134/3 arrived [9) 134/18 134/23 140117 142/8
110/6 110/22 114/20 115/ 1 119/3 119/ 10 apprehension f1] I SI I 146/2 1 I 54117 197/20 198/23 212/S
135/14 137/15 139/22 140/ 11 147122 149/4 approach f2) 97/20 202/2 arrives IJ] 98/20
15011 1 15 1/14160/7 163/6 164/ 18 172/3 approaching [2) 64/4 190/22 arriving (1] 177/8
173/2 1173123 174/11174/25 177/1 178/ 12 appropriate [l) 100125 arrow [II 171 /3
180/2181/24 182/3 182/16185/5 185/ll appropriately (21 100/17 150/9 arson [l) 41 / 15
186/4 189/10 190/24 191113 193/13 197/2 approval (1) 179/4 articles [11 125/22
204/2 224/3 224/10 approximate (1) 180/3 as [231]
although f7] 8/22 13/8 16/ 12 44/23 137/1 appr oximately [7] 142/7 142/ 11 143/15 ask [28) 4/ 14 8/4 54/1 8 54/ 19 57/2 57/3
178/24 193/6 156/3 158/2 177/9179/25 69/23 70/19 70/2 1 89/6 9315 93/8 100/5
altitude [11 190/12 APRIL[2) 1/1077/17 102/1110/24111/1611 7/22118/ 14130/4
altogether [1] 107/22 Apri13 [1) 77117 151/4 155/4 159/3 170/3 178/ 15179/2
always (6) 46/1158/1286/19 107115 108/2 are (148) 5/3 6/14 7/3 7/11 7/1312/25 15/23 203/16 203/18 203/19
109/25 16/4 18/21 18/24 19/5 20115 20/15 20/23 asked [31) 7/340/ 10 44/ 1746/948/293/17
am (5] 23/17 23/22 124/18 160/14 192/23 21/6 21120 22/14 22/16 23/ 15 23/21 24/ 16 94/ 11 111/24 116/ 10 116/ 19 116/25 117/12
among [J] 5/15 24/25 26/3 32/2 33/7 33/8 34/ 11 35/9 35/1 0 120/2 126/20 131/16 134/12 136/8 180/ 14
amongst (3] 98/2 98/2 158/ 13 35/ 10 35/16 35/18 36/13 36/18 40/1 40/22 180/ 1618 1/ 12 194/16194/25 195/11195/15
amount (4) 39/14 44/2 1 183/3 209/21 43/5 4317 44/6 47/23 48/14 49/12 49/17 198/19 202/ 18 203/15 205/3 222/6 222/9
analyst [4] 311113 1/ 1231/18 31/23 50115 54/ 19 56/14 57/11 58/3 58/3 58/5 222113
angle [4) 183121 185/19 187/ 15 188/23 59/10 63/9 64/24 66/8 6919 7116 71122 71/22 asking (8) 57116 62/3 82/ 15 93/4 93/ 14
angles [2] 18211 1 191/8 71125 72110 74/2 74/4 74/6 74/ 11 74/19 96/20 101/12 101/ 14
animation [9] 182/4 18216 189/ 17 189/ 19 75/2 1 78/12 78/ 17 79/2 79/10 79/18 80/9 asks [5) 65/7 84/7 84/11 85/7 85/25
189122 189/25 192/ I 5 l 92123 196/9 80120 81/ 17 87/6 87/8 9 1/25 9213 92/6 9217 assault [12] 1617 16/ 16 1717 17/ 10 17/ 13
another [40] 9/10 9/ 18 10/ 17 10/ 18 ll/l 9219 92124 93/17 94/3 94/ 11 94/19 94/25 17/17 17/2 118/2 18/23 27/1 1 31/5 53/17
11/7 11/10 11/12 13121 14/3 15/9 15/ 12 16/2 95/1 95/2 101/11 101/22 123/16 123/25 assertion Ill 208/25
16/2 16125 17/8 18/5 24/7 32124 40/4 44/10 126/8 127/19 127/21 127/22 128/1 128/14 assigned (1) 24/18
96/2 96/9129/5 130/1135/9138/17 141/ 19 132120 133/22 133/24 139/1 139/3 140/5 assist (19] 8/ 10 9/14 9/ 15 9/2 l 13/24 13/25
148/25 150/9 150/ 13 154/ 19 155/14 160/ 10 143/ 10 148/20 148/23 153/ 14 153/18 15511 14/5 17/317/5 17/11 22/1728/10116/20
164/10 176/19 184/1 1 184/16 185/1 193/12 160121 161121 162119 164/20 164/22 173/7 11 7/1 0 136/7 149/15 180/6 182113 208/2 1
answer [6) 54/19 93/ 19 93/20 94/ 13 11212 173/ 16174/19 175/5 176/9 176112 176/2 1 assistance [7] 42/3 113/3 119/2 134/13 136/1
211/17 176/22 178/ 16 178/20 181 /3 181/5 181/9 136/6 150/3
answered (1) 144/12 181 /20 182/25 I 83/25 183/25 184/7 184/7 assistant (2] 24/4 24/10
answering [I] 46/1 9 187/5 190/4 203/23 204/4 205/17 207/2 1 assisted 12] 24/22 226/10
answers [3) 64/2170/2493/16 208/ 19 215/21218115218/ 17 219/10 2 19/1 8 assisting (2) 24/ 1 194/13
anthropologist (3] 42119 73117 196/ 11 223/7 assists [5] 911 2 13/22 17/2 28/5 42/9
anthropologists Ill 75/21 area [109) 39/6 39/15 41 /3 41/9 41 / 12 41/19 associated [4) 138/7 141/2 1 16915 192/5
anticipated 111 98/19 41/ 19 42/1 42/5 42/8 42/8 42111 43/3 43/4 assuming (2) 207/20 211/6
anticipatory fl] I00/18 43/7 43/20 44/4 49/18 50/3 50/11 51/8 51/23 assure [l) 21/1 0
anxious [1) 87/11 51/25 67/8 68/13 74/22 74/23 74/25 75/4 attempt [2] 100/25 148/3
any [76] 5/8 519 611 612 6/23 7/6 7/10 11/15 76/9 76/12 76/23 79/24 84/23 85/1 0 85/ 12 attempted (1) 150/4
11/ 19 12/4 15/20 19/19 39/8 4214 45/18 85/ 18 106/2 106/3 115/13 13517 138/6 138/8 attempting [11 216/ 15
54/25 55/14 57/2 165/1366/ 10 66110 82/19 138/ 18 138/25 139/2 139/4 140/8 140/14 attempts [J] 97/4
9016 100/2 100/5 100/22 10 1/ 18 101/25 140/ 18 140/22 140/23 141/2 141/5 141 / 18 attendance [l) 108/ 14
10213 105/7 105/10 113/1 2 113/18 113/20 141/2 1141/22 14 1/22 142/15 143/3 143/4 attention [5) 8/6 23/4 23/4 108/4 172/ IO
11 6/16 120/20 12216 122/25 125/1 125/22 143/11 144/4 148/161 50/9152/24 152/24 attorney (741 1/20 1/22 3/5 3/6 319 3/10 3/12
132113 135/2 1135/22 143/19 145/1 8 149/20 153/ l 153/8 153/191 53/22 154/5 154/6 3/15 3116 3/17 4/5 4/6 4/114/ 11 4/124/24
151/ l 151/24152/16155/ 1162/20 168/23 156/8 156/10 157/8 159/15 162/19 166/19 511 21/3 23/18 24/4 24/10 53/21 54/2 82/1 8
172/22 173/24 181/ 18 194/2 196/4 198/11 166/25 167/1 168/22 174/25175/11 75/20 86/23 97/20 98/6 98/ 16 98/24 I 00/3 100/20
204/2 204/3 204/3 205/8 20511 0 207/17 181/ 1 181 /2 182/8 184/ 14 185/ l 185/7 101/15 10211 1 120/21120/24 121/2 12 1/3
awhile Ill 86/5 because (44] 817 25/ 15 25/16 26/23 28/15
A 3013 31/831/931121 3211 36/9 4216 43/23
attorney•.• [37) 121/9 121/ 1I 121/ 13 12213 B 43/24 45/25 5313 5514 56118 63n 8611 94125
122110123/3 13213 13218 132117 13311 6 bl 111 101/10 99/ 11 99/22 103/ 10 107/21 108120 109124
160113 161/20 161123 16215 16216 I 7317 back (52) 35/22 35123 38/14 39/5 3918 39114 109125 110/5 121/16 130/21 138/24 151/4
176/9 176/11 178/24 179/ 10 179/15 192121 4816 5119 52/13 53/22 64/23 6515 6515 6118 165/14166/23 166/24 170/17 175/19 194/15
193/2 193/4 195/25 196/20 20017 202/1 67/16 68/19 7 J/24 74/14 74/24 75/15 76/2 194/22 204120 216/6 216/12 216/21
20214 208/6 208/9 211/25 221/8 221/10 76/ 1I 85/ 19 8616 93/19 97/25 11412 114/23 become [81 48/9 48/25 49/ 10 58/19 136/ 12
223/3 223/6 224/ 13 117/ 12 121/612 1/23 125/ 14 128/8 137123 144/ 17 144/21 198/19
attorneys (2) 7/ 1 89/6 147/2 147/ 15 150/20 163/ 1 l 164/18 165/ 1 becomes [SJ 4917 49/20 55/20 57/ 1 71/J 5
au 121 138/4 160/3 166119 170/20 184112 184/ 13 186/21 189/9 bed (3) 65/5 65122 86/8
audio (2) 82119 91/10 189/12 189/ 12 190/25 204/8 205/6 210/ 14 bedroom (44] 38/3 40/ 16 49/17 50/5 64/24
August (1] 11 0/2 1 backed (1) 152/9 6515 6519 65/2 166/1868123 71/ 12 71/ 12
August30[1) 110/2 1 background (4) 2219 104/ 13 164/ 13 166/2 78/20 78/22 90/2 172/23 173/9 173/ 19
Austin (14) 43/ 1143/1343/15 43/25 18111 1 backroom (1) 88122 173122 186/24 187/2 187/2 187/4 187/6
182121 18614 186112 187/9 189/ 19 192117 backyard [l) 19211 187/ 12 187/ 14 187/ 14 187/18 187120 187124
217/ 15 217/22 218/1 bad 121 27123 151/5 188/8 191/6 191/6 191/9 213/ 15 214/1 l
Austin's (1) 21219 bag 141 56/5 5615 56/11 223/24 216/l 223/ 10 223/25 224/3 224/4 224/6
authoritative (1) 95/18 bags Ill 223/14 224/7 224/ I I
authority (2) 10017 201/22 bailiff (2) 6/4 7123 been [1021 6/5 18123 21/1124/1826/ 14 27/9
authorization (2) 35/11 145/ 13 balance (21 42114 179/16 36/21 45/546110 48/2 51/10 54/2 55/ 11
authorizes Ill 145/ 14 Barb 1171 32118 32118 33/3 38/ 12 46/19 55115 6518 6717 86121 102114 103123 105/ 17
auto [61 137125 138/4 143/25 14717 160/ 1 83/17 85/2 1 167/18 172119 172123 173/9 106/24109/ 13 11 0/14110/22 118/13 119/5
178/3 214/8 223/ 10 224/l 224/1 224/4224/5 122/22 123/8 125/6 126/17 126118 133/9
automatic (2] 37/23 67/2 Barb's [2) 168/3 214/ 11 134/7 135/13 138/14139/8 141/1 141/6
automobile 12) 140/12 155/ 10 Barbara [21 137/18 137/ 18 14219 143123 145/6 145/23 146120 148/25
AutoTrader [16) 29/20 30/ 1 46/8 47/4 47/6 barking (1) 166116 149/15 149121 150/1 1 15515 156/8 158/17
47/ 11 71/4 105/5 105/23 105/25 11211 I 18/9 barrel (151 39123 40/3 40/6 40/8 49/13 6915 15918 159/10 159/20 161/20 163/ 18 165120
177/23 178/3 178/4 178/8 80/11 80/12 80/ 17 163/23 163/24 164/5 167/ 14 169/24 170/17 171/ 19172/25 173115
available (l] 8/3 184/ 19 192/12 192114 177/4177/7 177/15 178/1 178/12 187/17
average (11 90/14 barrels (3) 184/13 192/2 19216 188/24 189/21 192123 195/13 195/14 195/16
Avery (129) 24/20 26/20 28/11 3017 30/15 base (31 6/8 61/1 5 212/10 19617 196/24 199/1 200/20 201/5 205/9
30/ 18 30/20 30/2 I 30/23 31/2 31/6 3117 based (9) 5/6 19/23 2017 55/ 18 81/2 9618 206/2 206/3 206/6 206/10 206124 207/10
31/15 31/ 15 31/ 19 3218 3219 32113 32125 145/2 14515 212111 209/ 1 209/3 209120 219/4 219/6 219/11
33/20 34/ 18 36/16 37/3 38/3 38/9 39125 40/3 basically 171 143/ 1 145110 152122 158/ 11 219/ 18 219/24 220/12 22216 22217 22219
4016 40124 41/6 4117 4 1/ 10 46/8 46/12 46/14 170/24 208/19 218/ 18 222/10 222/19 222122 226/8
47/9 47/14 47/ 18 49/24 5011 51/21 5215 basis [2] 2217 100/ 11 before (49) 1/1 1 5/2 616 9123 10/ 19 l l/16
52117 5317 55/1 1 62/19 64/20 6516 6616 basketball fl) 96/22 11/23 11/24 1417 15/3 17/12 1817 19/15
66/ 19 67/167/667/ 11 68/15 68/22 75/ 14 bathroom (3] 18816 188/8 191/6 461114611746/23 47/6 5214 61/2 6415 6419
80124 83/ l 84/3 84/4 88125 89/4 89/8 89/18 Bay [SJ 83/ 19 104/ 17 104/25 114123 117/8 71/ 18 85/25 96/10 96/10 98120 100/8 100/ 17
89/2 1 89/23 90/9 91/5 106113 106/ 18 113/ 15 be (198] 4/22 5/19 6/1 7/8 7/17 7/22 7/25 103/22 106111 106/16 107/2 108/11 122120
116/ 11 134/8 134/18 134/24 136/22 137/5 8/22 10/10 11/ 17 11/ 19 11/22 12/2 1216 127/8 130/5 130/211 3115 13717 145/17
137/8 137/9 137/14 137/24 138/10 138/ 10 12/ 10 13/7 14/ 18 15/18 16/12 17/23 19/7 149/20 157/10 157/19 159113 179/25 193/21
139/13 139/ 18 140/3 141/11 141/16 141/ 18 19/24 19/25 20/11 21/2321/25 22/l 2215 205/ 19 2 10123 211/20
143/25 144/ 1 146/4 155/9 155/24 157/3 2219 22110 22116 23/ 11 23/252417 24/ 11 began 14) 39120 54/24 54125 83/2
157123 158/12 159/ 19 159123 160/1 160/5 26/22 27/2 27/3 27/4 31123 32115 33/ 12 34/ 1 begin [6) 5/ 12 48/ 10 84122 85/4 85/14
160/6 160/ 11 164/ 15 167123 168/12 171/9 36/1I36/1336/ 15 37/9 38/ 19 38122 41/8 154/15
171/ 14171/16 171/ 17179/23 180/18 183/9 43/23 43/24 44/2 44/9 44/18 4612 46/20 beginning (1) 142/6
183/10 183/16 183/23 194114 197/20 198/17 47/20 50/14 50118 51/ 14 52110 53/8 54/8 begins 131 5/3 29/8 29/14
198/ 18 210/ 13 213/11 213/25214/10 214/17 54116 60/14 61/20 62/22 63/9 63/21 63/23 behalf [SJ 1/1 4 1/16 1/18 1/20 1/22
214/2 1215/5217/15 224/ 11 64/ 1170/ 15 70/17 7517 7619 7717 80/20 81/2 behavior 141 39/ 19 54/5 54/6 63/ I I
Avery's [90) 32116 37/21 39/24 40/2 40/ 15 81/4 81/5 81/ 1181/ 1285/24 8614 87/5 8717 behind (15) 321434/1941/10721875/ 12
40/ 16 43/19 46/23 47/23 49/ 16 49/21 49121 8917 9016 92114 94/ 18 9412196/497/15 78/9 79/24 84/23 85/ 10 89/24 168125 18612
51/19 51/23 53/5 69/2 6917 71/12 71/19 97/ 17 97125 9817 98/9 9917 99/11 99/ 12 19519 195/10 215/2 1
77123 77/24 8015 8017 80/ 11 80116 80/2 1 99/17 99/23 99124 99/25 101/ 1 101/9 101/1 9 being [311 10117 11/ 10 11/12 30/23 49/16
106/16122/20137/17138/ 11 138/19138/20 102/2 10213 102/ 16104/2 118/ 1123/10 52117 59/6 68/10 75/ 12 75/17 75/ 18 106/15
139/11 13912014 1/25 143/8 163/ 16 163/20 12917 132114 132120 133/ 11 136/25 137/3 I I 1/ 11 116/3 12011 136/1 151/ 15 16117
164/11 164/ 12 16611 166/20 167/4 168121 138/19138/24 139/ 10 140/3 140/ 13 140/24 161/ 17164123 169/12 176/2 1182124188/4
169/20171/1 175/ 18 176/20 177/2 177/8 142116 147/2 147/4 148/10 150/ 18 155/15 19417 203/23 205/3 205113 21617 216/8
178/21184/ 16 184/17 184/ 19 184/22 185/2 158/8 160/ 15 160/25 16118 161/ 141 61/ 18 216/24
185/2 185/3 185/20 185/21 186/2 186/3 162/l 164/ 19 165/13 165/16 166/4 166113 belief(3) 9/10 13/20 16/25
186/13 187/3 187/4 187/ 14 187/20 187/24 166/14 167/21 170/18 171/ 15 172/8 179/l believe (52) 7/5 12/ 17 42/25 69/19 7112
188/6 188/ 15 188/23 19017 190/14 190/20 179/6 I 8217 18219 18219 183/3 185/24 74/ 15 86/10 87/23 88/18 89/ 16 90/3 9119
190122 191/ 1 191/4 191/6 191/9 191/ 1I 181112 189125 19016 19019 191n 191125 94/3 94/17 94/23 95/ 15 9615 97/ 14 98/8
191/ 1619217 192110 192110 192112194/8 193/2 193/7195/ 16 196/6196110 196/ 19 114/2212813128/24 131/9 138/8138124
194/14195/10214/7216/6 200/22 202121 205/ 1205/4205/13 205/15 141123 143/5 145/1615214 167/17 174/5
avoid Ill 14/25 205/16 205/18 205/19 206/1I 206/22 207/12 176/19 178/23 179/10 182112 186/1 198/2 1
avoids (1) 95/8 207/ 16 207/20 208/4 208118 208/19 209/6 198/24 200/4 200/ 19 202/12 202/24 209/15
aware (17] 6/5 11/ 10 105/24 114/25 116/2 209/14 209/ 18 210/5 211/ 17 212/25 213/ 14 210/6 211125 21218 213/ 12 214/13 217/13
I 1817I19/1 126/2 146/19 164/4 16619 16619 213/24 2 I4/8 219/19 220/14 220118 224/20 217/ 18 217/ 19 218125
166/ 17 168122 169/ 1I205/ 17220/ 13 beach (1 ) 188/ 10 believed (91 63/21 63123 64/ 11 77/25 118/1
away [6) 95/2 1 11213 129/15 181/13 191123 bearing (2) 1215 15/21 I 74/8 194/19 195/ 16 222120
218/13 became (21 39/15 197/ 11 believes (2) 70/17 70/ 18
booked 111 168/18 Brutus (9) 153/ ll 153/ 14 153/ 17 153/17
B booking (1) 168119 153/22 154/4 154/7 154/10 154/ 17
belonged (2) 168/7216125 booth (1) 129/15 Bryan 111 32122
belongs (1) 45120 bore 12) 56/18 56/19 building 131 138/3 138/4 141/19
below (1) 90/13 boring (l ] 62124 buildings (12] 33/6 33/ 10 33/11 138/7
belts (11 191120 boss 111 83123 141/ 17145/ 15 162/19 163/8 179/25 180/1
benefit Ill 20/14 both (17J 4121 6/18 12121 15125 34/17 39/10 186/6 186/8
berm [II 154/2 48113 52/2 71/ 10 74/9 87/25 98/14 139/23 built 13] 140/5 185/4 191117
berms [21 140/4 140/5 182/22 186/ 19 213/22 216/2 bullet 112) 72/12 72112 72/14 72/15 73/8
Berta 11] 132/4 bottle 111 188/11 73/11 74/5 74/6 89/25 189/6 18917 189/ 10
besides (I) 207123 bottom (5) 3211445/25 11 1/7 175/3 190/8 bullets (4) 721172/672/10217/19
best (3) 127122 223/12 226/13 bottom's [l) 3212 burde n (2) 19113 87122
better 121) 5/4 201213812444/8 6113 61/5 bought121 117/8 119/ 12 Bureau 111 134/1
6117 6117 70/12 70113 70/14 7219 93/9 139/5 bounce [11 48/19 burn (44) 39/23 40/3 40/6 40/8 41/3 41/9
157/20 159/14 167/22 168/2 200/22 221110 box (8] 118/16 118/18 119/8 11 9/20 148/5 41112 41119 42/8 43/3 43/4 43/20 49113
221111 157/24 158/3 188/9 49/ 18 50/3 67/12 69/5 75/4 75/5 7612 76/8
between [22) 11120 40/2 47/1 57/10 75/9 boxes (2] 118/21 147/7 7619 76/12 78/25 79/23 80/1180/ 1280/17
86120 87/8 94/15 94/16 107/ 10 113/17 boy (2) 90/ 12 93/25 89125 163123 163/24 164/5 184/13 184/19
164/ 13 167122 178/7 181123 182114 19217 boyfriend (2] 83/ 18 109/17 18517 185114 185/20 18612 191 /20 192/2
192/13 200/5 206/1 219/ 12 219/ 18 boys Ill 11 3/6 19216 192112 192114 19519
beveling (1) 73121 BRANCH (2) 1/1 226/5 burned [10) 45/ 10 69/4 76118 78125 79/2
beyond (18] 10/1 10/10 10/22 12/19 14/ 10 branches [10] 34/2 68/ 14 77/5 77/6 14713 80/3 80/11 185/1 1 185/15 191121
14/19 1515 15123 17/ 15 17/24 18/9 18/2 1 147/6147/17 147/211 48/4 150/19 burning 121 67/20 8012
19/1119/16 53113 97/4140/25 201112 brand (4] 119/19126/10 131/22 131/24 burnt [1) 7511
bias (1) 5/9 Brandes (11 169123 bus [1] 55/9
big 171 26/12 50/10 50/10 78/10 141118 brass Ill 128/13 business [16) 30/12 33110 37/5 71/6 105/3
155/ 11 157124 break (16) 22123 22125 23/2 23/5 32/5 46/3 105/21 110/5 111/1 1 115/23 137/25 144/3
bigger [1] 203/4 53110 53/ 10 53/2197/2498/7 132122 160/16 178/14 178/15 179/5 205118 219/9
bill [6) 47/5 71/4 73/5 17813 178/9 220120 160/ 18 215/18 217/9 businesses (11 33/8
billing [l J 178/18 breaks Ill 23/8 busy 131 109/9 109/9 11011
birdseye [lJ 18617 breath (1) 53/3 buttons [2) 128/3 128/13
birthday 141 108/10 108/12 131/10 131111 BRENDAN (162) 1/6 1123 4/3 4/13 10/24 buv Ill 125/18
bit (19) 21/25 28/8 30/19 36/11 38/9 38124
42113 42120 50/7 50/7 79/179/1983/ 12
1115 1517 15/13 15/24 16/126/1327/2 28/9
32121 33/1 37/4 38/6 39/25 40124 46119 c
84/14 84/17 13412 141/20 159/3 16616 46123 53/ 15 54/3 54/4 54/23 55/8 55/12 cabinet [1J 84/20
bits (11 26/6 55/17 62112 62114 62116 6212163/ 1963/20 cadaver (4) 35/ 16 35118 4213 153/5
black (21 128/ 18 166/3 63125 64/3 64/ 16 64/19 64122 651165136517 caliber (71 37123 67/1 72123 72125 73/6 73/8
Blaine 191 32122 82123 82124 83/8 83/9 83113 65117 65/17 65/ 19 66/8 66/ 13 66/15 66/ 17 189/6
83/15 83125 84/1 66/18 66119 67/3 68/11 68/1868/25 6918 call (20] 4/2 38/14 46/18 80/21 83/6 85/20
Blaine's Ill 83/23 6911 9 69125 70/3 70/8 70/ 11 70116 70/ 19 100/15 I 02111 105/25 109/8 11 2121 118/25
blank [l] 117/ 17 711171/87111072/47211873/1 73/157417 123/3 133/6 133/25 14219173/13 173/2 1
bleach 1181 68/20 78/ 10 78/11 7811278/17 74/13 74/16 74/24 75/2 75/ 10 75114 75/15 197/ 14 207/6
85/18175/ 12175/ 13 175/19 176/6 188/3 76/13 76122 77/1 77/4 77/7 77/ 11 77/ 14 called (501 6/ 19 20/4 29120 3017 30/9 31/8
188/10 194/2194/3 194/7 195/5 218/2 1 77/ 17 77125 7813 78/5 78/14 78/ 19 78123 35113511635/ 17 39/5 56/ 17 58/17 59/ 15
221/14 80/ 1 80/3 80110 80120 80125 81120 81122 6112169/77 1122 75/7 79/8 80124 8412 86/12
bleeding 151 51/24 5215 52111 69/3 80/6 8212 8219 8212 1 82124 83/ 1183/ 1483121 86/25102114 !09/23111/1511 1/251 12/3
blood (41 ) 35/23 39/3 3915 3919 39/10 39/13 83124 84/1 84/8 84/ 11 85/7 8518 85/22 85/24 11219112110113/24 11 6124117/12117/ 12
39/14 50/8 5019 51/5 51/10 51/ 12 51/ 13 86/3 86/7 88/10 88120 89/ 13 89/20 9014 9015 11 9/2 119/15 123/8 124/ 13 133/9 134/6
51116 51/19 52/20 74/ 18 74/19 74/20 8017 9018 90/10 90/24 90/25 91/5 92/J 8 93/4 134/10 134/ 11 135/2 138/24 149/15 152/16
80/8 89123 9016 15317 154/5 195/ 13 195/ 14 93/11 93/ 18 93120 93/24 94/ 194/169511 1 153/5 181/1 4 185/6 200/ 15 2 18/4
195/ 17 219/1 219/3 219/8 219/20 220/2 95116 95/24 9715 97/6 97/12 122/15 1221 19 calling 151 8217 8217111/17 111/ 18 17917
22 1124 222/4 22216 222/10 222/19 222120 137/20 139/12 139120 172114 172119 17612 calls 171 46/8 83/9 83125 84/4 84/7 84/ 10
222122 222123 203/24 204/4 211115 213/ 15 214/22 215/7 85122
bloodhounds (1) 42/4 217/ 121 7/4 218118 220/5 221/ 13 221/23 Calumet (18) 4/6 23/ 18 25/2 89/7 11213
blue [61 127/5 129/9 172/6 174/ 17 174/25 22213 134/ 12 135/4 135/ 16 135/ 19 136/3 144/10
175/ 1 Brendan's [14) 28/12 64/16411069/1 69/14 197/12 198/21 199125200/2200/4200/8
bluish 121 146/3 146/ 11 70/20 75/6 77/ 18 81/13 84/5 84/12 85/21 220/ 18
bluish/green (21 146/3 146/11 122/22 214/3 came 1221 2917 41/ 14 41115 73/1 1 82122
board [lJ 147/19 Breyer 11 I 11 3/24 82125 108/ 1915214 152123 194/5 210/ 17
Bobby (11 32122 bridges (lJ 11 5/ 17 211/5 213/ 10 213/ 11 213/ 14 213/ 18 213123
bodies Ill 153/6 brief(2) 13312 135/5 214/9 214/ 10 216/5 222121 223/9
bodily (1) 52120 briefing (1) 135/6 camera (61 69/4 80/11 80/ 19 118/8 118/8
body 1111 37/19 55123 58/2167/1067/12 briefly (IOI 63/24 9712 1 100/8 104/ 12 118/ 16
67/13 67/20 74/15 75/ l 82112 157/16 104120 121/22 142/l 167/16 172/1 1 220/4 can 1100) 19/15 1911819/2419125 20/21
body's fl) 68/9 bring (3] 76/17 77/10 223/20 21/3 22/22 25/25 25/25 28/4 33/6 35/12 45/2
bone (12) 41/12 45/9 45/1 3 45/16 73/18 brooded (1) 11/ 17 46120 47/20 48/12 50/12 51/14 51/18 52/8
73/18 73120 75/19 75/20 75/22 76/l 89124 brother (6) 33/5 82123 138120 193/13 56110 5711 57/3 59/8 60113 61/20 67/13
bones (8) 41/ 17 41/21 42/ 15 42122 43/6 45/6 194/ 10 220/8 69/17 74/2 76/14 76/15 7712 1 79/18 87/5
45/7 75/17 brothers (21 32121 ll l/15 92/3 94/20 99/ 10 100/ 17 104/4 104/21
bonfire (71 67/ 16 84/8 84/ 15 84/24 84/25 broughtll4} 111120 14912 1 152/6 180/5 106/25 110125 113123 114/5 118/14 119/ 17
85120 85/23 18018 180/ 11 180/ 14 180/21 194/3 207/ 13 121/21 125/7 126/5 127/5 127/ 18 12811 1
book (1 ) 88/14 209122 216/7 216/ 11 216/ 13 128/25 129/ 17 129/ 18 129/20 129/24 132122
bookcase 11) 187/ 16 brush Ill 148/4 136/19 137/1 140/4 140/9 140/21 141/20
certify (1) 226/6 closer (5] 4012 7217 104/9 123/25 166/6
c CF (2) 1/5 4/3 closest 15) 124/ 16124/ 17 125125 125125
can... (36) 142/18 143/24 146/8 147/ 12 chain (11] 128/24 129/2 130/2 130/9 130/11 156118
147/14 147117 147/20 148/8 149/10 149/22 130/13 130/17 166/ 15 166/15 18517 191118 closet (I) 173/lO
150/20 157/20 158/6159/4 159/ 15 164/12 chair (1) 187/ 16 closets [1] 173/12
166/5 167/1 5 168/13 170/4 171/23 174/22 chance[3J 23/17100/10217/11 closeups 131 173/16 186/23 186/24
178/15 183/6184/18 187/ 15 188/4 188113 change (4) 55/16 92/14 93/4 93/5 closing [3) 7/15 86/25 87/ 19
190/14 190/24 192/6 202/25 203/3 205/15 changes [3] 92/12 92/24 96/1 cloth (I ] 130/1
20817 208/17 changing [IJ 84113 clothes (11] 68/23 69/2 78/24 79/2 7917 80/2
can't [ll] 22/21 5619 69116 87/15 87/18 8811 chapter (2) 87/14 97/ 16 80/4 85/14 124/9 125/19 126/ 1
88/2 117/17 141/24 217/ 13 225/2 chapters [II 88/15 clothing (9) 56/3 56/4 56/10 79/25 85/13
cannot (4) 12/1 15/17182/12 210/22 characterization [1) 158/9 125/22 126/22 126/24 173/24
Canon [I) 118/ 18 characterize (2) 19717 213/19 cloths (2) 194/23 194/24
capable (1) 207/9 characterized (2] I 01/19 193/24 clutter (4) 188/ 19 188119 188/20 188/25
capacity 11) 134/4 characters [1) 86/ 15 coached [2] 125/2 125/ 10
car (40) 34/4 34/20 34/22 35/ l 35/6 35/23 charge 121 49/22 197110 coaching (1] 125/1
35/24 67/22 67/23 6817 68114 74/23 76113 charged (4] 8/13 1917 26/15 27/9 coat [I] 86/ 1
76/18 76/19 76/20 76/25 77/5 77/6 77/8 charges (3] 8/17 13/2 16/6 code (7] 8/20 10/ 15 13/5 14/23 16/9 18/3
77/lO 77/12 77/16 80/12 115/18 15617 charred (2) 42/18 75/ 18 52/22
156/14 156/19 156/22 156/23 157/ J 157/4 cheaper [I) 104/8 cognitive (3) 90/14 93/ 13 95/5
157/515717 157/7157/91 85/ 16185/20 check [2] 48/17 19917 cognitively [II 95/13
191/21 191/21 checkpoint [21 135/ 11 140/25 collect [2) 84/2 1 165/16
care [1] 19/3 cherry 121 131/23 131/24 collected (4) 7/23 811 31/ 13 72/22
careful 131 7/17 8/6 97114 chest [2] 61/6 61/8 collecting [2] 85/3 85/3
carefully (4) 7/18 94/18 209/ 17 226/8 chief [2] 99/8 100/14 collection [1] 165/21
cargo (8) 39/5 39/15 50111 51/7 5119 67/8 child (2] 90/16 95/12 collectively [l] 69/18
74/23 74/25 children (2) 103/3 103/13 college [1] 29/2
caring (1 ) 103/3 chilling [1] 41/l color [12) 13011 146/3 146/12172/6194/17
carry (2) 67/15 76/20 chilly (2) 84/1 4 86/J 194/22 206/12 206117 207/21207/24209/19
cars [25] 29/21 29/22 29/24 30113 32/10 choice [2] 64/16 64/18 222/8
34/25 3717 37/8 37/10 37/11 37/ 18 47/4 choices [8) 63/11 63/13 64/ 15 64115 82/2 colors [J) 208/25
118/10 154/1 157/6 157/ 13 158/6 15817 82/3 82/6 82/13 com (l] 13/ 19
L58/11 158/14 158/15 158/22 205/l 209/6 chooses [1) 10112 come [25] 5/2130/1630/17 38/19 40/10 46/9
210/12 chose [l) 82/9 46/15 46/20 53/22 69115 73/ 13 82/24 8417
cart[4) 84/19 17212 172/5 184/6 Chuck [2] 138/19 141/25 107/2013417137/8 143/ 13 167/19 180/15
case (116) 1/5 4/2 516 5/13 5/ 15 6/3 6/6 6115 Chuck's [1) 33/5 180/ 16 181/12 210/23 21317 215/20 215/25
12/5 15/2 1 21/6 21/ I 0 22/3 22/5 23/25 24/l Cindy (1) 170/11 comes (41 21/4 26/6 75/23 83112
24/8 24/ 11 24/19 24/20 24/25 2517 25/10 Cingular (31 111/1 178/17 179/5 coming (8) 108/2 1 139/1615 1113 183/21
25/16 25/16 25/20 26/20 26/2126/242817 circle (11 78/9 190/ 12 190/23 191/1191/15
2817 28/9 28/10 28/15 28/25 29/8 29/14 CIRCUIT (3] 1/1 I /I I 226/5 command (91 135/2 138/14 141/9 141/13
30/14 30/20 30/21 30/23 3117 31/10 31/11 circumstance [1) 12/11 141/15 14212 142/2 142/ 17 163/1 1
31/14 31/2131/2231/253417 34123 36110 circumstances (3] 12/5 12/18 15/21 commencing (1] 152/25
36/20 37/9 38/8 42/20 44/ 15 44/21 44/24 cite (1) 99/14 comment (1) 159/5
45/23 50/19 50/23 50/24 5212 53/6 54/9 cited (2] 10017 102/6 commission (291 8/21 8/25 916 919 9122 I 0/4
54/24 54/25 56125 57/3 57/5 57/13 57/14 citizen (7] 33/18 37/14 48113 145/23 146/3 J0/9 10/12 12/24 13/613/11 13/16 13/ 19
58/14 59/3 5916 59112 59113 59/23 61/9 180/17 208/4 14/5 14/13 14/1 7 14/20 16/3 16/ 1 I 16/ 15
61/15 61119 62/10 63/17 63/22 69122 73/9 citizens(13) 21/1621/1934/1148/2149/9 16/20 16/24 17/1 1 17/ 18 1712217/25 1917
81/l 8116 81/14 81/16 81119 82/15 86/22 112/5 112/6 114/9 114/ 14 114/15 198/8 27/20 28/4
88/ 12 89114 96/8 96117 96/18 96/24 96125 198/ 13 199/10 commit [JO] 8/23 9/11 9/ 1913/913/2 1 14/4
98/1 99/6 9918 I00/14 102/5 114/2 1 144/18 claim [11 161/20 16/13 17/l 17/9 60/8
161/15 168118179/5 181/ 19182/10203/23 clean [8] 85/7 85/14 85/ 18 175/17 175/20 commitment [1) 6/12
204/15 2 15/11 225/3 194/23 194/25 19517 commits [8] 9/13 9/14 13/23 13/24 17/2 17/4
casings 13] 72123 73/9 73/11 cleaned (8) 68/20 68/21 68/21 78/6 78/24 27/19 28/5
cause (SJ 11/3 11/12 20/3 145/2 14515 188/ 17 218/4 219/4 committed [23] 6/8 9/3 9/8 10/210/7 10/ 16
caused (2) 10/24 195/21 cleaned-up (1] 218/4 11/16 12/2113/ 14 13/18 14/1114/1515/25
causes (1) I0/16 cleaning (7) 78/17 85/6 194/8 194/ 14194/17 16/19 16/22 17/16 17/20 18/4 27/18 53115
causing [l) 11/J 221 / 19 222/4 60/12 69/11 145/6
caution (3] 19/3 20/22 217/6 cleanup (1] 195/6 committing [10) 9/2 9111 9119 13/12 13/21
CD [1] 52/2 clear [6) 99/9 99/22 100/24 154/10 167/1 14/3 16/17 16/25 17/8 39/2 1
celebrated (11 108/ 12 223/4 common [2] 19/23 119/ 14
cell (16) 48/17 48/1 8 69/4 80/ 10 80/18 85/21 clearly [4) 100/12 150/16 154/7 206/ 17 commonly (l] 138/22
110/31 10/91 10/17110/201 10/25 112/17 clerk (4] 4/14 123/5 132/7 145/1 I communications (1] 6/2
113/8 178/ 18 178120 178121 clicks (1) 130/9 compare (l] 120/5
Cellcom (2) 178/21 179/6 client (1] 101121 compass [IJ 66111
cells (11 52/21 clients (I] 106/7 compel (lJ 18/19
cement [11 189/8 close (13] 8/14 34/20 40/5 4017 74/21 10311 compelling [I] 70/ 17
center [3] 14212 142/17 159/ 18 107/ 15 124/l 124/3 158/8 184/2 1 187/20 competition [I] 96/22
certain [9) 5/3 11/11 101/22 106/2 135/16 210/ 17 completed [l) 178/7
151125 182/6182/8 205/ 18 close-up [JJ 184/2 1 completely [31 45/10 45/11 151/6
certainly [121 23/6 25/20 27/6 27113 53/20 close-ups [11 74/21 completes [21 47/5 48/1
65/ 14 102/2 166/22 207/25 217/9 217/12 closed (1] 22/21 completion [2] 71/5 71/5
220/17 closely [1] 219/10 compression (I] 189/ 11
certainty (J I 45/21 closeness 11) 2 12122 compressor (2] 72/8 189112
convicted 131 8/22 1317 16/ 12 cows [2] 108/ 19 115/21
c conviction 121 1218 1511 cozy [l] 93/18
computer 171 43/4 43/9 44/ 11 181/3 184/8 convinced (3) 10110 14/ 18 17123 crack [l) 18917
191/5 226/10 coordinate [1] 25/ 17 Cramer [2] 153/ ll 153/21
computer-assist.ed (1) 226/10 coordinated (1) 23/24 cranial (21 73/25 74/12
computer-generated (SJ 43/4 43/9 44/11 copy (2] 812 178/17 cranium [1) 73/20
181/3 184/8 corner [21) 32/14 32115 34/17 4115 139/10 created 14) 43/17 43/25 181/6 192/ 16
computerized [l] 226/9 139/18 140/3 140/15 141/ 12 141/15 147/18 creating (1) 209/25
computers [I) 44/3 148/ 1150/16 157/2 157/23 157/25 159/22 creation [l] 181/3
con [2] 17123 101/19 169/4 183/10 187/16 191/5 credibility [2] 7/ 11 96/15
conceal [10] 14/25 15/ 14 15/ 16 52114 67/13 corners (I] 139/25 credit Ill 50/24
6712177/2148/4 151/23 200121 corpse (14) 13/3 13/ 12 1412 14/4 14/8 14/ 12 crime (108] 8118 8119 812 181228122 8125
concealed 161 33/25 34/ 1 68114 77/4 77/ 12 14/17 14/2214125 15/8 15/915/ 11 15/ 13 916 917 919 9112 9/ 13 9/14 9/16 9/19 9122
147/5 27/ 10 9125 10/2 10/5 1018 1019 10/ 12 12124 13/4
concealing (2] 7717 150/19 correct (82) 4/23 122/20 124/20 140/18 13/4 13/6 1317 13/8 13/1 1 13/16 13/17 13/20
concentrated [I J 140/17 140/20 144/6 145/25 157/17 157/18 161/19 13/22 13/23 13/24 14/ l 14/4 14/6 14/8 14/1 1
concentrating (1) 23/1 167/8167/9167/24 167/25 172/ 15 172116 14/13 14/16 14/18 14/20 14/25 15/2 15/14
concept (6) 27/14 27/17 28115 28/18 28/19 184/1 184/8 184/9 185/9 185/10 185/13 15/ 16 16/3 16/8 16/11 16/11 16/12 16/ 15
60/24 186/8 186/9 186122 187/ 11 189/ 16 192/ 18 16/20 1612 1 16/24 17/ 1 17/2 17/4 17/6 17/9
concerned (ll] 81208125 JO/ II 13/613/ 11 193120 195123 197/4 197/8197/ 12197/ 13 17/ 11 17/ 14 17/ 16 17/ 18 17/2117122 17125
14/20 16/10 16/15 17/25 48/ JO 109123 197/ 18 19815 198/6 198/ 17 199/ 1 200/ 11 27/ 15 27/ 16 27/ 19 27/20 2814 28/ 19 31/ 11
concerning (2) 612 616 200/ 17 200/ 18 200/21200/25201114 201/25 31/18 35113 36/3 38123 39/2 39/ 12 39/ 18
conclude (1) 53/22 203/25 204/1 20417 204/ I5 205/23 206/8 41/14 44/20 51/4 52115 57/20 57/20 57/21
conclusion [7] 12120 15/24 81/19 82/14 207/17 207/ 18 207/24 208/12 208/16 209/JO 58/2 60/12 67/14 73/5 74/1 77/3 78/8 136/12
86/19 86/21 97/16 210/3 210/25 211/21 212120 213/16 213/21 145/6 149/ 11 149/14 15 1/10 151117 151121
conclusions (21 7/6 5219 214/6 214/23 214/24 215/7 215/14 216/ 16 15211 1 154/12 154/ 17 181/19 21717
condition [41 146112 146/ 13 19912 211/8 216/23 217/ 1217/2217/5 217/6 218/3 crimes [SJ 39/21 53/16 60/8 133123 133/24
conduct (2] 5/5 11111 218/23 22017 221/16 22215 222123 226/ 12 criminal (13) 8120 10/ 15 13/5 14123 1619
confessing (2) 57/ 19 57/21 corroborate [4] 69/21 70/8 70/ 18 76/ 15 18/3 25/5 25/ 13 27/17 28/ 17 39/ 19 5416
confession (2) 58110 69122 corroborated (3) 61/21 91123 9 1/25 133/20
confessions (4) 58/ 15 61115 90/24 101/20 Corroboration (2] 91121 92/2 critical [I) 49/14
confidential (1) 7/22 cost 11 J 220/15 critically [11 71/15
confirm fl) 178/23 Cou Ill 199/25 cross 113) 3/10 3/16 6/19 981 19 99/18 100/25
confused Ill 1216 could !SS] 25/21 39/8 39/9 41/18 50/18 70/6 101/23 10213 12219 122/12 132124 196/ 19
conjunction [2] 15119 201/22 70/681116821197/ 1697/20102121103/ 14 196/22
connect fl] 95/24 103/18 103125 106/22 107/4 107/13 10818 cross-examination (7J 3/ 10 3/ 16 6119 98119
connected (4] 130/2 198/ 12 204/4 211/ 14 11 1/12 115/22 116/6 123/ 18 123/25 133/17 99/ 18 122112 196/22
connecting (21 214/22 217/4 134/2 140124 147/3 148123 151/ 19 154/20 crow 131 21211121211521 2116
consent [3] 18/5 18/ 14 65/24 15517 15615 162111 163/ 1 171/7 171/20 crude [l] 65/ 13
consented (1) 176/4 173/3 179/17181/8 183/12 187/22195/13 crush 121 34/24 158121
consequences [1] 82113 195/14 203/1 203/10206/16 208/4 220/15 crushed (221 76/24 155/16 155/ 17 155/21
consider [8] 7/3 54/4 91/ 15 92/8 96/20 97/6 22216 222/7 222/9 2221 I0 222/ 19 222122 156/3 15716 15717 157/13 158/8158/ 15
97/ 10 97/ 12 couldn't ]1) 206/ 17 158/ 16 158/ 19 158123 159/ I 205/ 1 205/5
considerable fl ) 94/5 counsel (12) 4/ 19 7/9 23122 98113 98121 205/13 205115 206/ 10 206/20 206124 209/2
consideration 121 20/1 97/ 14 100/4 100/7 132113 179/3 196/4 211/20 crusher (33) 34/2 134/2235/ 135/7 76125
considered (3) 11/ 17 96/ 13 140/25 223/2 140/ 12 15217 153/ 11 53/3155/10 155/ 18
consistent [4) 19/19 5515 72124 73/ 13 Count (4) 8/ 16 8/ 16 13/2 16/6 155/ 19 155/22 155/2515617 156/ 14 156/19
consists (2] 3219 32110 counties [I] 180/14 156/22 156/23 156/24 157/1 157/4 157/5
constitute [l] 19/14 county (33] 1/1 4/6 4/8 2117 21/7 21120 157/9 157/25 158/1 158/15 158123 205/20
contact [7] 5/22 5/24 49/24 95/7 116/25 23/ 19 23/19 24/10 24/ 17 25/2 89/5 11213 206/2 212114 212119 212123
143/ 12 14417 11 5114134/ 12 135/4135116 135/ 19 135/ 19 crushing [I) 21212
contacted 121 146/5 15213 13612 136/3 143121144/ 10 180/20 197/ 12 crux Ill 36/10
contacting [I) 117/ 19 198121 200/ 1 20012200/4 220/12 220/ 18 cue fl) 71/ 17
contain [l ] 154/5 220/ 19 226/2 Culhane (10) 31/20 31/22 44/13 44/ 15 44/23
contained (2) 223/24 224/2 couple 113) 21/12 39/ 16 62123 84/5 84/6 45/ 11 51/4 53/1 72113 77/22
containers fl] 223/15 119/24 130/14 150/22 159/1 1 166/20 188/ 1 Cum Ill 104116
contains [lJ 49/19 202124 223/3 current (21 178/4 178/10
contemplating (1) 99/5 Coupled fl) 95/14 currently 131 21/20 133/23 142/2 1
contends 131 8/24 13/ 10 16/ 14 course !JO) 18/12 80/6 100/ 11 201116 cursory (I) 209/ 13
contest [l) 96121 204123 207/16 211111215/ 15221112 221/22 curtilage (1) 139123
contested (3) 2215 26123 52110 court [36) 1/ 1 1/ 112/44/2 518 614 6/11 612 1 Curtis (If 80/14
continue (3) 11/24 138112 138/ 17 6125119 7/16 87117 89/5 9818 100/5 100/8 curve (1) 73/22
continued (2) 105/ 1 210/ 11 101/2 10214 10217 132113 132/16 145/ 11 custodian [l) 17917
continuing (3) 49/3 138/21 190/ 19 149/21 161/3161/22179/3 193/1 221/6 customer fl) 178/8
contract (2] 111/1 120/23 221/9 224/20 224/2 1 225/6 225/l 0 226/4 cut (9] 3213 3213 50/2 52/4 52/5 5217 52/8
contracts [I] 29/17 226/5 226/19 6913 80/5
control (3) 14215 197/21 198/4 courtroom (6] 5120 6/14 22113 76/17 98/6 cuts 111 66/20
controlled 131 205/ 1121 3/24213/24 176/6
controls fl] 87/ 17 Courts Ill 145/11
D
convened ft ) 100/8 cousin (11 116/7 D.A fl) 23/ 18
Convention (IJ 129/ 14 coveralls Ill 149/ 14 D.A.'s 11) 4/9
conversation 141 47/13 220/4 221/12 221/23 covered (1) 33/25 D.O.T [lJ 208/ 17
convict fl) 12114 Covington [2) 20/24 2111 Da fl) 213/10
decisions (4) 21/13 6516 65116 69116 Despite [ l) 95/23
D deck [2] 184/23 190/24 destroyed (I] 8/1
dad [1] 33/2 dedicated (1) 103/4 destructive Il l 4 1/ 19
dad's (I) 108/10 deep (21 5218 5313 detached 11 1 92125
dairy Ill 115125 defendant (54) In 1/20 1122 1/24 8/ 13 8/17 detail 171 48/4 63/19 64/4 70/3 70/4 70/4
Daisy (111 79/8 79/20 79/21 12617 126/9 8/24 9/18 9123 10/2 1017 10/11 10/20 11/9 175/7
126/12 126/15 126/25 12 7/2 1 12817 128/21 11/14 12/12 12113 1212 1 12/23 12125 13/1 detailed 12) 54/15 187/9
Dane (1) 2 1/7 13/2 13/10 14/2 14/7 14/10 14115 14/ 1915/3 details [ 131 55/17 56/22 59/8 61124 63/8
dangerous (4) 16/8 18/6 18/ 17 18/19 15115 1614 16/5 16/6 16/14 11n 11112 11116 63/ 15 65125 69/10 9 1/25 9216 92113 9512
da ngers (lj 16212 1 11120 111241sn181111 8115 18118 18124 96/ 1
dark (3) 84/17 149/2194/ 18 18/25 19/11 19/17 20/14 28/3 32121 82115 detect (1) 35/19
darkened (1) 185/13 9912 99110 172114 detective [l] 161/ 10
darkness (1) 1511 13 defendant's (4) 11/3 1213 15/19 19/20 d etermination [1] 30/13
Das (1) 137/20 Defenda nts [1) 19/5 determine [11) 63/18 113/4 127/23 143/ 13
DASSEY [99) 1/6 1/23 4/3 4/13 10/24 11/5 defense [11) 23/10 86/18 96/ 18 96/25 99/ 1 151/23 168/ 6 170/19 207/2 1 207/22208/10
15n 15113 15125 16/1 2111126113 2112 2819 99117 99123 177/5 178/ 12 179/2 179/8 210/ 16
32120 3212 1 34/18 39/25 4116 43/21 46/19 defer (2) 10112 10 1/5 determined (21 30/5 168/24
53/1 5 54/4 54123 56/3 62/12 62/14 62121 defined [3] 10/15 14/22 18/2 determining (1) 219/20
63/25 64/3 64/22 6511 65119 661 19 66/24 Definitely (1) 182/18 develop [4J 45/1 45/12 53/ 1 113/20
6717 67/14 67/20 68/18 72/18 74/7 80/1 80/3 definition (1) 2 18/15 developed (6) 31122 44/ 18 51/4 58/4 165/9
81120 81/22 8213 8219 8212 1 89/14 9015 9018 degraded (2) 42117 45/ 11 2 11114
90124 92118 99/3 122115 122119 137/20 degrading (I] 65/ 13 device (1) 2 1212
137/21 143/7 167123 169120 171/2 171/9 degree (25) 8/17 9/1 9/17 9/20 9/24 I 0/3 diagrams (1) 76/25
171114 172/ 14 172/19 172/21 173123 174/ 17 10/8 10/1 4 10/20 12/22 14/ 16 1617 16/16 did (105) 8/23 11/6 13/8 16/13 18113 54/21
175/6 175/8 176/3 176/18 177/ 1 183/9 1717 17/9 17/13 17/17 17/2 1 18/2 18/22 54/2162/1663/14 64/12 70/5 77/5 79/2
183/ 15 183/22 184/4 184/ 11185/23 190/9 27/1027/1131/253/ 1663/19 80/218 1/987/ 12100/7 102124104/13
190/ 13 19211 192/3 193/6 193/ 10 193122 deliberate (1] 88121 104/22 105/6 105/ 13 106/14 106/15 107/ 18
194/6 194/11 195/22 203/25 204/4 213/ 10 deliberations (7] 5111 5/ 12 5/ 16 7/21 8/4 107/20 109/3 109/5 109/ 17 111/ 14 111/25
2 13115 2 14/ 12 214/22 21517 2 17/ 1 2 17/5 1919 54/ 17 113/ 12 113/ 18 113120 113/22 11 4/12 114/12
Dassey's [20] 27/8 37/4 38/7 40/24 46/24 Delores (2) 32125 138110 116/15 116123 117/ 11 117/ 13 117/ 14118123
5415 5913 70/16 72/4 90/4 90/ 10 139/12 Delores' [I) 141/24 120/8 120/17 120/25 120/25 12113 122/ 16
139/20 171122174/4 174/12 189/ 14 19218 demeanor [11 166/10 124/ 10 124/15 125/5 127/2 127/14 129/4
194/ 10 211/15 demonstrative (31 161/7 161/13 161/24 130/19130/23 131/1131/ 19131/22 13211
Dassey/Janda (1) 213/ 10 denial (2) 58/ 13 60/4 143113 144/13 144/ 16 144/20 145/16 146120
data Ill 11912 denials (3) 58/ 16 58/17 59/10 147/4 162116162123 166/ 19166122172118
date (8) 1/10 10 1121 110/18 111/4 14517 denied [2J 54/25 88/16 172/2 1 173123 174/717517 175/11175/ 13
145/7 195/ 15 205/10 dentist (2) 76/3 76/4 177/20 193/15 197/24 199113 200/1 201/ 11
Dated (11 226/ 15 department (14) 417 24/5 25/3 2515 79/ 10 203/ 13 203/ 15 203/17 203/18 203/ 19 204/2 1
daughter [101 2913 103/2 10917 116/9 11214 124/13 133/20 135/ 19135/20 135123 207/2 207/2 210/5 2 10/7 2 10/ 15 2 10/ 19
116/12 118/ I 118/9 120/ 16 121/ 15 122118 136/3 136/4 18813 210/20 212110 21317 215/6 215120 218124
daughters (l] 11411 9 departments [2] 11 5/1 180/15 22113 224/5
daunting (I) 21/15 depend (1) 10 111 6 didn't[25) 26/20311103 1/1 431/153917
Dawn (1) 47/1 1 depend ing [I) 160/2 1 5515 5516 5518 70/1 721178 117 8117 94/ 12
day (441 115 7/25 11/ 18 29/9 37/15 38/21 depends (3] 109/8 206/20 209/21 11212 11 6/11 117/ 11 121/16 166/23 177/1 1
4011 1 40113 41116 43/2 47/7 47/8 49/20 6915 depict (8) 174/2 1 181110 181/20 18 1/24 197/ 16 19813 203/ 16 20513 213/ 18 215/5
7019 7119 10813 108/6 108/ 11 108/ 13 109/4 186/15 189/4 189/18 189/ 19 died (1 ) 103/22
110/ I 110/2 11217 112112 116/ 15 116/17 depicted [5] 130111 164120 164/23 184/19 difference 141 57/ 10 60/23 86120 107/ 10
116/2 1117/24 126/ 14131/5 131/ 14145/18 198/25 differences (1) 87/9
162/13 179/22 179/22 198/1 205/ I 0 209/24 depicting (2] 155/10 185/19 different (261 22/17 321 11 37/12 39/3 46/14
2 1117 21 119 2 19/13 224/25 226/ 15 depiction [7] 142/22 150/23 183/8 184/16 51/20 79/20 89/5 89/ 13 89/14 91/ 19 91/ 19
day's (1) 7/23 184/21217/222 1817 91/20 92112 93/1 1 130122 151/4 165/ 13
days (25) 2213 36/6 36/7 36/7 39/16 43/ 14 depictions (SJ 44/6 182111 187/8 187/8 183/21 185119 187112 187/15 188123 19118
45123 50/ 15 50/21 50121 88/6 88/6 89/22 2 17/ 15 20216 208/ 19
89122 111/25 115/22143/ 12 145/8 157/ 12 depicts (4] 170123 17215 188/6 189/6 differently (1) 60/ 10
16612 1 179119180/7 180/12 195/22 202124 depression (1) 2 12/13 d iffer s (1) 93/18
OCI (6J 90/21 133/2 1 133/22 136/11 193/ 12 Deputies (1) 200/1 difficult (13] 57/25 59/ 11 62122 64/24 89/2
196/25 deputy [3] 18812 200/4 224/9 11 6/ 14 120/ 12 159/10 206/3 207/20 20913
OCl's (3) 134/12 136/ 1 136/6 descent (1 ) 139/2 209/6 209/ 14
dead (1) 66/25 describe (26] 2617 56/ 10 59/ l 5912 73/ 19 dig [1) 209/8
deal (2) 39/4 104/ 10 104/4 104/21 106/6 106/22 107/ 13 11 3/23 digital [3] 80/19 118/8 118/ 16
death [JOJ 10/1710/251 1/ l ll /4 11 / 1255/ l 11 5/22124/1 137/4 142/18146/ I 147/3 dimensional (3) 18 1/25 182/1 183/8
79/14 120/1 126/20 127/25 149/11 152120 153/25 162112 166/12 175/8 direct [14] 3/9 3/12 3/15 6/ 18 11/1 57/2
debrief(l) 163/1 1 179117 194/5 20219 102119 108/ 4 123/ 14133/ 15 172110 197/15
debris (10) 34/2 84/20 85/3 14913 218/6 described [111 7717 146/1 1 162117 187/ 17 204/23 216/17
218/8 218/ 10 2 18/13 218/15 2 18/16 194/ 18 194/22 196/ 10 200/20 204/14 204/24 directed (3 ) 6/25 27/2 57/ 1
deceased (2) 35/22 153/6 22218 direction (2) 25119 148/2
decide [141 5/6 6114 63/22 66/16 67/9 6815 describes (2) 67120 9514 directly 123( 8/23 912 913 918 10/2 1017 11/7
69/18 81/12 81/ 13 87/3 94/22 96/7 97/l describing (1) 181/8 1212 11 3/813/12 13/14 13/1814/ll 14/15
2 10/5 description 13] 27/25 66/4 174/ 13 15/25 16/ 1 16/13 16/16 16/18 16/22 17/ 16
decided (1) 105/3 deserves (1) 12117 17/20 167/21
decides (l] 67/11 designed 14) 34/24 56/ 14 57111 57/ 12 directs 12) 144/4 145/2
decision (9] 20/12 66/ 15 69/12 69/12 88/23 desk 121 187/15 19115 dirt [3) 185/4 185/15 191117
96/1 1 151/7 15 1/9 151112 desperately (1) 36/22 dis [II 67/11
don't [32) 2217 28/18 61/14 65/11 82/18 EDELSTEIN (17] 1/213/ 164/ 12 54/12
D 88/10 90/3 94112 95/22 96/24 97/2 101/24 100/ l 100/3 101 /6 101/15 196/20 20017
disappear [I ) 186/ 13 104/9 122/16 135/14 143/18 159/4 161/3 202/1 202/4 208/6 208/9 211125 221/8
disappearance (11 119/25 161/6161 /8 161/13 179/19199/4 200/7 221/10
disappearing [1) 188/ 16 203/ 16 205/7 208/13 2 10/6 210/21 214/ 13 edge (4) 30/11 156/9158/11 185/ 15
discard [l) 94/20 219/25 220/3 Edition [l) 108/21
discarded [1) 55/4 Donald [1) 76/4 educated [2) 93/12 113/25
discovered [4) 49/ 18 145/23 156/6 189/ 11 done 171 25/ 18 85/6 86/9 88/8 88/11 163/ 10 education Ill 104/ 14
discoveries [I) 49115 180/ 17 effect [4) 59/23 61 /8 222/ 12 222/15
discovery [3] 39/ l 41/2 49113 door (24) 51/9 51/11 51/17 51/22 64/6 64/8 effort [4) 36/ 18 37/ 194/5 199/ 14
discuss 161 5/ 15 66113 97/8 98/22 10017 64/ 17 64/21103/20104/3 164/18 165/2 efforts 1101 24/22 25/ 10 36/20 48/13 48/ 14
106/6 184/23 184/24186/20 187/20 187/21187/2 1 114/14 116/4 116/21 179/ 18 180/9
discussed [l) 4/21 187125 187/25 188/24 190/25 19917 199/12 eight (3] 45/23 50/I 5 I 84/20
discusses [II 67/ 11 door/entrance (1) 187/25 Eisenberg 141 73/ 17 74/9 75/20 196/11
discussing [l) 193/7 doors [4) 164/16 164/17164/20 186/20 either (19) 9/ 1 9/ 12 l3/J213/22 16/161711
discussion [61 5/ 13 97/22 9811 133/5 135/21 dots 12] 74/2 74/4 22/25 27/ 18 34/4 35/22 42/2 115/5 116/ 19
173/6 doubt (32] 10/ 1 10/11 10/22 12/20 14/10 131/4145/15171/9180/24207/11217/4
discussions (1) 113/ 12 14/ 19 15/5 15/24 17/ 15 17/24 18/9 18/22 electronic [1) 164/6
disposal [l) 43/1 19/11 19/17 19/22 19/23 19/24 20/2 20/6 electronically [l) 182/23
dispose 131 52/14 67/9 82/1 1 20/6 20/8 20/10 20/10 20/ 11 20/14 20115 electronics (1) 80/ 16
distance 17] 94/ 14 159/ 17 166/16183/1 53/ 14 96/5 96/8 96/19 97/3 97/5 elements (7) 10123 12/21 15/615/25 18/ 10
183/2 191/24 212/11 down 129] 58/22 68/2 68/4 68112 83/3 92/20 18/22 27/ 12
distract [I) 7/18 102/25 123/2 133/l 13517 135/10 137/12 elevated [1) 185/15
distribute [I) 114/ 13 137/13 138/21139/2 140/22 143/415411 elevation (2] 143/5 191/10
distributing [l) 114/10 154/6169/20 171 /8171/13 1&6/14186/14 Eleven [SJ 123/24 132/6132/7 132/11
distribution fl) 48/20 191/2 191/l 0 198/24 21Oil0 224/16 132/19
district [4) 4/6 23/18 24/4 24/ 10 dozens [2) 91125 9216 elicit I1 J 99117
disturbing (1] 63/9 Dr. (6] 73/ 17 74/9 74/ J0 75/20 76/4 196/ 11 elicited [2] 99/23 99125
ditches (11 114/24 Dr. Donald [1) 76/4 ELMO (1) 128/ 10
dive Ill 180/21 Dr. Eisenberg (3) 74/9 75/20 196/l I else (7] 5/ 16 &012 81/15 122/24 162/21
Division [21 25/5 133/20 Dr. Jentzen [l] 74/ 10 210/20 21 2/7
DNA [31] 24/13 31/8 311931/12 31/ 18 31/24 Dr. Leslie [1] 73/ 17 emotion (l] 93/15
31125 39/8 44/14 44118 44/21 45/145/12 dramatic (2] 33/ 16 34/8 emotions (l] 93/ 10
45/ 17 50/6 51 /3 51 /24 52/ 17 52/19 52/23 draw [41 7/6 5218 57/4 117/ 17 empathy 11 I 66/9
72113 77/2 1 89/23 90/4 9016 120/ 1 120/5 drawing (1] 59/7 employed (3J 133/18134/3 196/25
215/2 215/3 215/4 217/3 drink [11 131/22 employee (2] 43/ 12 197/3
do (130] 5/8 5/12 5/ 15 5/23 10/6 14/1417/ 19 drive [21 171/8 212/25 employment (J I 104/22
19/20 22/8 22/1 4 22/19 27/ 13 43/25 48/2 driven [3] 36/3 68/12 76/22 empty [1] 188/10
48/15 49/25 56/8 58/20 59/1 l 59/18 6017 driver's [I] 168/15 enclosed 141 36/ J 152/9 152/10 201/7
63/8 65/1165/186617 66112 66116 71/2 drives [l] 84/ 17 encourage 171 22/19 58/4 5816 6013 6014
71 /20 71125 73/7 74/ 15 76/ 14 79/12 85/ l driveway [6] 137/ 11 137123 139/15 169/ 19 9416 9419
85/16 8717 87/15 88/l 88/2 89/2 93/23 101/3 169/19 171/13 end [23] 29/7 37/9 63/22 64/13 83/1 86122
105/ 15 105/18 108/5 108/25 110/9 11011 I dropped (2) 77/2 82125 &7/15 87/ 19 88/2 88/ 14 96/10 96/ 12 96/23
110/ 18 113/8 114/9 114/ 14 115/24 115/25 drove [11 106/20 97/9 97/ 15 122/1 129/20 129/2 1 134/24
116/8116/23117/9118/3118/18119/ l 5 dry [I) 211 /9 134/25 137/ 12 137/24 144/1
119/16 120/4 120/4 12114 124/2 124/10 due (1) 163113 ended 121 159/7 205/25
124/22 126/5 128/5 128/23 129/1129/10 dug [21 185/5 191119 enforcement [40) 25/8 35/ 12 37/ l 37/ 13
129/12 129/21 130/ 16 130/20 131/5 131/20 duly 13] 102/14 123/8 133/9 44/16 48/14 49/9 6212 77/19 78/3 90/23
131/24 134/ 13 145/9 148/17 153/1 I 154123 during [34) 5/5 5119 613 619 7/ 14 7/14 7/21 I !4/25 116/21 117/16 117/18 !27/14 135/1
156/12 160/24162119162/23162/24 162/24 8/4 8/9 20122 23/627/6 27/7 47/13 54/8 54/9 135/3 135/ 10 135/ 17 138/15 140124 142/5
163/22 163/24 165/9 16617 169/ 14 169/ 15 54/17 68/1 71/ 12 9717 97/13 98/7 98/25 142/7 144/21 145/3 146/5 !46/21 149/6
173116 173/18174/22 176/5 176/& 176/ 15 I 08/3 I08/12 l 09/6 115/21 165/ 10 204/23 162/18 162/21169/25177/21180/ 13197/21
177/9182112 182/ 19182/24186/4189/3 205/10 211/112 15/ 15221/12 221 /22 198/3 202/6 204120 208/3 224/ 19
195/ 15 199/6 199/9 201116 203/6 203/22 dusk [2) 149/2 150/24 engaged [1 ) 114/15
205/18 206/4 206/5 206/ 14 207/14 208/7 duties [2] l 05/24 133/22 enjoyed [3) 103/ 10 I 04/1 1 I 05/1 0
208/17 20&/25 209/23 2 10/ 121 2/10217/ 10 duty 13) 5/6 7/2 20/ 13 enlarge Ill 207/1 I
222/15 223/7 226/6 dvnamic 11 1 60/23 enough (3) 23/ l 96/4 178/13
does (27] 7/17 11/14 12/ 15 31/23 31124 enter [1] 172/18
47/16 66/ 15 77/22 93/23 96/ 17 96/ 18 102/1 E entered (2) 146/23 151/12
111 /3111/61 11 /9130/7 130/ 10130/11 EAA [1) 129/14 entire 14] 62/20 63/ 1 63/ 16 139/18
130/15 146/ 15 156/19 165/3 165/5 208/ l l each (19) 6/7 7/1 7/23 10/ 10 14/ 18 17/23 entirely 121 &9/15 94/23
209112 217/24 221/25 23/17 26/10 37/1140/l 86117 86/18 &6/23 entirety (l] 8114
doesn't [3) 25/24 48/7 218/2 89/12 96115 157/7 180/2 206/25 209/17 entitled [2J 99/ 17215/ 13
dog [20) 93/22 122/1 152/23 153/2 153/3 Earl [l] 198/18 entrance [12) 73/22 74/3 74/6 164/16 164/ 17
153/4 153/7 153/ 11 154/11 163/3 166/6 earlier [7) 30/ 19 67/22 6915 16218 192/3 164/20 171/ 16 184/23 184/24 187/24 187/25
166/9166110 166/ 13 166/14 166/ 19 166/24 193/8 202/6 190/25
185/7 191/18 210/ 10 early (5) 28/14 30/ 13 36/20 89/3 197/ 19 entry (2) 143/20 165/2
doghouse 121 18517 191/18 earth (1) 73/12 episodes [1 ) 51 / 15
dogs [12] 35/ 17 35/ 18 35/18 42/3 42/4 easier [I) 117/23 equipment [8) 34/22 34/24 164/6181 / 16
152/22 153/5 153/ 17 163/4163/6166122 easily (51 35/3 95/16 15919 202/17 202/19 207/8 207/ 11 207/13 209/22
166/23 east (11) 23/ 19 137/16 139/19 140/8 152/24 error (2) 183/3 216/19
doing [8) 12/ 10 22/ 10 24/16 44/ 14 66/5 160/8 171/16 185/25 1&7/ 18 190/8 190/23 Ertl IS) 78/7 78/ 11 149110 149/ 10 150/21
113/11128/ 12221/18 easy (1] 206/11 Ertl's (1) 149/ 13
excuse [111 23/20 47/21 49/18 53/1 5316 fair (9] 20/1 63/8 !58/9 169/9 169/ 10 197/9
E 53/10 53/15 93/12 147/1 164/3 164/4 198/12 206/11 21 1/11
escalating [I) 92/17 excused [1) 5/19 FALLON (81 1115 417 24/3 24/5 98/16 98/24
escape (I) 20/11 execute fl) 162/18 l 00/20 223/20
escapes (1) 182/4 executed [1) 145/8 false (2] 62/5 62/6
especially (2] 105/12 114/8 exemplar [I) 45/14 familiar (6) 26/19 33/ 12 44/2 106/ 19 167/IO
essence (1] 136/7 exhibit (122) 103/24 105/18 106/24 I I0/15 181/5
essentially (101 137/11 137/25 143/10 145/ I 110/23 110/24114/2114/5118/14 118117 family (19) 21 /18 21/19 48/9 50125 82/8
159/2 159/19162115 183/20 190/6 191125 119/6 ll9/ IO 11 9/20 120/19 121/1 121/ 10 10312 103/5 103/13 107/25 108/1 1 l l l/13
establish (I) 12/16 121113 12517 127/4 127/6 127/7 127110 11215 114115 115/8 115/23 121 /4121/IO
established [II 45/17 127/18 129/5 12917129/10130/3 13017 121 / 15 198/ 17
establishing 121 12/l l 19/13 130/12 136/19 136/19 136/21 137/4 139/8 fanciful ll] 8114
evaluate (I) 69/14 140/1141/7141/8141/9142/19142/21 far (71 128/ 1814 1/8 156/12 157/19 159113
evaluating [I) 8/ 10 142/23 143/23 144/3 146/8 146/25 147/8 168/3 187/3
even (26] 11119 36/20 39112 42/l 52/10 57/3 147/23148/25 149/22 149/24150/12150/13 farm 121 109/9 160112
621164/5 64/17 69/24 73/24 76/3 87/14 150/21 151/1153/10 155/6 155/20 156/25 farmers (1] 115/25
88/11 89/6 89/10 11 Oil 112/6 11217 112112 157/ 19158/17 159/ 12163/18 164/9 164/21 farmhouse [21 103/2 1 104/7
112112145/16 147/17186/19 187/8 2 19/12 165/3 165/25 16617 167/2 167/14 168/ l FASSBENDER (33] 3/14 25/3 36/ 17 39/12
evening [11) 35/15 75/10 120/14 163/15 168/ 14 168/17 169/2 170/3 170/14 170/22 55/1978/15 90/21127/17133/7 133/8
163/17 165/1 2 174/14174/20 193/17193/23 1711191 7213 173/l 17317173/ 16173/17 133113133/17136/111 44/7 149/20 155/5
194/ 13 173/20 174/2 I74/ I 0 174115 175/24 175/25 16216 165/6 167/10 169/7172/7 177/4
event [2) 66/3 105/14 176/l 176/2 176/2 1 178/I 178/14 178/17 179/15 181/2 185/8 189/17190/1 193/5
ever [23) 21/14 44/20 106/6 106/ l l 106/12 183/5 183/191 84/3184/ 10184/15 184/25 196/24 21211 213/2 221/22 22317
106/15 107/19 109113 120/15 122114 122117 185/9185/10185117185/22186/10186125 father (1) 138/11
122118 122/22 124/13 125/3 125/21 127/8 187/12188/4 188/6 188/13 188/21 192/19 favor [I I 24/17
129/1130/1 6131/ 1717217 202/23 220/3 192/25 198/25 202/5 21 1/22 211 /22 213/3 favorite (1) 107/21
every [16) 19/619113 20/1 4 37/l I 37/ 17 215119 217/14 218/1 218/17 FBI[l] 80/15
58/ lO 58/11 59/275/20 76/l 88/18 155/4 exhibits (12) 3/18 6/21 8817 146/7 148/19 fear 11 J 20/9
15717 157112 180/3 206123 148/20 155/ 1 176/10 176/12 196/1 213/14 February (11] 55/16 5617 8913 176/4 193/10
everybody [31 21/3 53/3 57/24 216/24 193118193123 195/ 16 195/20222114222/17
Everyday (1] 82/24 exist( l] 11/24 February 26 (l) 222117
everything 14) 25/18 56/24 5717 211110 existence 111 207123 February 27 (8) 55/16 5617 176/4 193/10
evidence [137] 5/7 5113 619 6/ 14 6/15 6/17 exists [11 11/15 193/23 195/16 195/20 222114
714 7/8 7/10 7/12 8/8 8/118/159/25 10/21 exit [2) 187/20 187/25 feel [6] 44/9 61/3 61/7 97/6 159/4 190/17
12/15 14/9 15/4 17/14 18/8 19/3 19/IO 19/16 exonerated (3] 31/3 31/7 31/19 feeling [l] 57/23
19/18 20/1 2012 20/20 20/21 20/24 21/24 expect (4] 20/20 38/15 93/22 143/18 feelings 121 5/8 6115
22/4 24113 26/4 2616 2619 26/11 26/21 26/22 experience [l) 165120 feet [8] 41/9 84/6 156/15 158/2 183/2 2 1211
27/1 27/1 27/3 27/4 28/7 28/25 29/6 31/9 expert (7) 51/13 69/16 73/18 74/18 80/8 212/19 212/23
31/9 31113 31/22 33/1 4 34/15 34/23 35/13 158/21 219/22 fellow (l] 225/3
35/25 38/1138/22 40/940/17 41/24 1/ 11 expertise 121 24/12 105/7 felt 111 151/24
41120 43/16 44/17 44/20 46/13 47/25 4916 explain (7] 26/25 60/2 69121 70/23 86110 female (7) 39/4 39/IO 39/14 42123 45/18
50/20 52117 53/6 53/ 11 54/10 54/19 5516 95/1 190/3 5019 124/17
5518 56/22 57/24 59/12 59120 60/15 61/10 explained [l] 154/4 fence [31 147/6 150/ 18 169/21
61/22 64/15 69/22 70/7 70/15 70/24 71/3 explains (2] 42110 61/17 fencing (1) 148/5
71123 72115 72122 73/4 75/3 76/14 76/15 explanation (1) 27/25 few (4) 41/9 5012 5319 122/10
81 /1 81/18 81121 86/ 10 86/24 87/20 88/6 explanations 11] 66/8 fiance (J] 83/18
89/18 89/22 90/3 9015 91/8 95/24 96/13 exposed [3) 6/1 615 94/18 fiber [1 ) 66110
98/20 9918 99113 99/20 99/22 100112 149/16 express [2] 59117159/5 fibers [l) 204/3
16118 161114 163/12 163/14 165/11 165/1 5 expressing [I] 59/15 field [6] I 11/20 140/8 140/8 160/9 160/12
165/15 165/17165/20 182115 182116189/3 expression [1] 66/9 160/12
189/5 189/9 214/20 215/IO 217 /3 223/14 expressions [2) 81/4 94/14 figure 121 60113 60/15
223/2 1 223/24 224/2 extent [3] 203/8 207/19 217/23 figures (l] 95/19
evidentiary (5] 98/18 151/24 170/1 180/25 exterior (41 43/18 43/19 186/19 186/19 final (6] 5116 88/2 1 9 1/ 1291/1496/11
201124 Extreme fl] 108/20 104/24
ex [I) 207/22 eye (3] 95/7 182/12 184/l finally (6] 24/9 52116 147/23 170/22 174/15
exact [I) 200/3 eyes fl ) 114/20 188/21
exactly [l) 7716 evewitness Ill 75/14 financial 11 J 48/16
exam [2] 204/23 215/15 find (47) 6125 9/23 10/19 12/2 12/24 13/1
examination [19) 3/9 3/10 3/12 3/15 3/16 F 1417 15/3 15/18 16/3 1615 17/12 18/7 18/23
3/17 6/19 41/22 50/198/ 1999118 100/17 F-a-s-s-b-e-n-d-e-r [1) 133/ I4 18/25 19/9 33/2133/2235/18 36/ 19 36/24
102119 122/12 123/14 133115 196/22 200123 facial 111 94/ 14 39/13 39/14 42/10 48/12 48/14 5012 5015
223/5 facing [2] 148/1 166/4 70/1 7017 7211 72/5 72/ 12 73/18 76123 77/14
exam ine [21 19/2 42/1 fact (33) 717 19/13 25/1126/17 34/13 35/19 82/15 87/12 96/5 11 1/21 126125 127/15
examined (15] 42/18 45/16 50/4 72/22 37/7 45/12 49/8 51/6 52/9 57/13 57/20 58121 161/ 11 163/1 163/1 165/15 172122
102/15 123/9133/10 151/22 155/ 18 157/7 72/172/1776/16 96125 112/24 145/ 14 finding (3) 19/8 40/21 72/11
157/11 157 /12 200/22 206/24 219/23 161123 168/ 1172/1819817198/16 201/21 finds (1) 72113
example [31 27/25 180/20 205/2 1 206/IO 213/22 2 18/4 219/11 219/24 220/22 fine [I) 101/3
excavate [1] 43/5 221125 finger (4] 51/24 52110 69/3 80/5
except (1) 7/14 factor [11 11/4 fingerprint (1) 45/2
exception (J ) 205/12 factors Ill 151/12 fingerprints [4) 9017 203/24 214/25 216125
exclude [11 215/5 facts (7) 6/23 1214 15/20 22/9 61122 78/2 finish [4} 62/25 87/2 195/6 199124
excluded (1} 215/4 81/12 fire f191 55/23 55124 55/24 55/25 62/18
exclusion [I ) 73/ 12 Fails 11] 95/6 67/ 18 67/2468/24 69/2 7511 17511375116
four 1161 32110 32/11 32119 33/5 63/1 63/4 46/ 15 47/16 55/9 56/22 6 1/6 61/8 77/2 1 83/4
F 78/9 85/2 104/ 15 148/24 158/23 180/3 180/4 87/ 11 88/4 88/8 93/ 18 94/8 101/23 10218
fire... [7] 76114 85/4 85115 86/5 8616 168/25 184/ 13 19212 19216 10219 10811 11212 112116 117/22 138/13
195/8 four-foot [l] 7819 154/20 16113 171/8 175/6 190/2 190/3
firearms (3) 49/5 186/25 187/4 fourteen 13) 13216 132/11 132/20 197/24 199/3 199/5 199113 203/3 217/ 11
firefighter [IJ 169/24 fourth (2) 90/ 14 95/6 225/ 1
firefighters 121 37/13 180/ 11 fo urth-grade [2] 90/14 95/6 gets [10) 47/22 65/17 77/22 83/6 83/8 84/16
firemen (l] 206/22 FOX 141 1111 27/2 1 220/522111 85/20 86/7 93/23 168/l
firings (I I 73/7 fragment (5] 75/22 89/25 189/6 189/7 getting [SJ 7215 149/2 197/ 14 205/ 14 212112
first (72} 6117 8/17 9/ 1 9/ 17 9/20 9/24 10/3 189/1 0 Gibson 11 ) 30/9
10/8 10/14 10/20 12122 14/ 16 16/6 16/16 fragmentary (l] 45/ 19 girl (4J 63/ 14 67117 8219 82110
1717 17/917/ 13 17/1617/2118/2 18/22 fragme nts (3) 41/13 89/24 21 7119 girlfriend 141 69/6 80/21 80/24 121119
23/13 23/ 16 27/9 27/11 27/14 30/20 3216 frame (2) 68/8 208/18 girls 121 103/16 108/22
3217 35/15 36/ 14 36/14 36/19 39/6 41116 free 13) 31/8 56123 129/ 15 give (241 4/ 19 12116 20/13 20/19 22117 40/5
45123 50115 53/ 16 59/4 5915 59/ 14 64/ 18 freelance (1) 29/2 4114 50/22 56115 58/24 63/ 15 86/25 9619
75/4 83/6 83/8 88/5 92118 99/4 99120 102114 FREMGEN (18) 1/ 19 3/6 3/ 10 4/11 4/ 11 96/ 14 96/ 16 104110 119/ 10 120/5 128/8
109/20 11217 112112 11 6/7 123/8 125/ 14 4/25 5/1S4/ 1282118 98/6 100/l 120/21 157/20 1S9/l3 160/20 178/9 179120
133/9 139/7 140/16 146/7 149/10 151121 120/24 .1 22/10132117 160124 179/9 179/10 given (15] 4/22 S/7 19/24 l 9/2S 33/19 62120
1S7/l I 162113 172/2S 177113 178/2S 18114 fresh (11 23/9 102/3 11 4/3 141/7 1721 13 172/ 17 177/23
196/7 204/9 218/ 1 22 1123 Friar (2) 174/5 174/6 20S/ 10 207123 208/23
fit (10) 2213 2619 26/12 26112 3618 50120 Friday (41 114113 114/ 16 114/ 16 11 5/6 gives (21 47/4 63119
S0/20 SS/S 5S/6 174/13 friend (5) 29/4 83/6 83/9 83/ 16 l lS/ 11 giving (61 23/ 11 S4/13 S5/17 61/1 93120
five 110) 46/ 11 79/22 83/3 83/25 85/2 103/3 friends (SJ 21/ 18 48/9 103/S 11219 11 5/8 129/ 15
109/12 114/4 145/8 197/5 front 128) S0/13 5 1/25 52/l S212 7217 79/5 gladly (I) !OS/ IS
fix (2) 2S/22 32IS 107/1 121/2S 148/ 1149/8 149/ 17164/10 glass [I) 186/20
fixed (3) 46/2 5413 182/ 16 164/14 164/ 19 164/19 167/3 167/5 167/22 glasses (I) 2S/ 1
flames (J] 75/ 12 171/21 171/23 171/25 184/5 184/22 189/5 Glenfield (2) 37123 67/2
flattened (1) 207/ 10 190112 190/ 13 190/20 19219 go [47} 21/16 29123 35/ 12 43/24 4816 S0/22
flavor 121 44/8 50123 fuel 121 55/24 168/24 63/24 70/12 83/7 83/10 83/ 16 83/ 19 85/9
flies (3) 212/11212115212116 Fuentes [HJ 79/9 79/20 79/21 126/7 126/9 85/ 19 88/4 88/22 89/5 9211 9711 1 102/l
floor (9) 66/24 67/178/5175118 189/8 194/8 126/13 126/ 15 126/2S 127/21 128/7 128/2 1 104/8 106/3 106/5 112/19 116/ 13 124/4
194/IS 195/5 221/25 full (6) 49/7 53/2 5519 77/22 110/4 142113 124/5 124/25 125/3 126120 138/12 138/21
flow (1) 87117 fully [1] 104/22 139/2 149/20 150/20 160/ 19 163/4 163/ 11
fluids (3) 52120 204/2 205/20 fu nctioning (1) 95/5 166123 183/5 199123 204/8 208/8 209/7
flung (1) 5 I/I0 fu nctions [I) 5/4 2 11 /20 212/ 17 218/ 14
flush (1) 101/13 funnel (2) 56/ 17 56/20 goes [15) 4717 57/22 67/6 84/ 15 86/7 86/8
fob [7] 129/23 129/24 130/8 130/1 1 130113 fur [1] 176/23 92122 94/ 11 101/18 128119 129/21 130/9
130/13 130/18 further [16} 43/5 50/3 5017 97/9 99/13 137/ 11 143/4 187/21
focal (I] 94/24 100/17 104/4 116/20 145/ 18 147/4 149/20 going (185) 4/ 19 21/1 1 21/ 1425/7 25/ 11
focus (2) 89/ 19 9 1/24 171/3 194/21 19612 224/ 16 22S/6 25/22 25/24 26/4 26/11 26112 27/4 28/22
focused (2) 57/2 115/ 19 28125 29/6 31/20 3211 32/3 35115 35125 36/8
folded Ill 110111 G 36/25 37/17 37/20 38/4 38/7 38/15 39/22
folks (2] 145/18 200/14 GAHN [5] 1/17 4/8 24/9 24/10 24/ 12 40/ 14 41/ 1141/ 1341/23 43/10 43/ 16 43/23
follow (2) 27/24 57/7 game [I) 96/22 43/24 44/7 44/7 44/15 44/ 18 45/6 45/24 46/1
fo llowed [2) 114123 163/3 games (3) 83/ 11 83/22 125/3 4615 46/6 46/10 46/ 13 46116 46122 47/ 10
following (5) 10123 15/6 18/10 42114 210/1 garage 186) 37/3 41/ 10 43/19 49/5 5615 47/ 12 47/17 50/ 19 50/22 51/5 5119 51/ 11
fo llows (3) 102115 123/9 133/ 10 66/23 67/ 17 68/19 68/20 70/12 70/ 13 71/14 51/ 16 52116 S2/ 18 53/4 53/8 5319 54/8 54/ 16
foot (1) 78/9 71/19 7 1/21 7212 7216 72/7 72/11 72/1874/8 54/18 54/ 19 55/8 56118 5717 57/9 57/13
footprints [2) 2 11/3 21111 3 75/12 78/5 78/ 18 79/24 84/24 85/8 85/9 90/l S7/14 57/ 19 57/25 5817 58/1 8 S9/20 59/2 1
footwear [1) 2 11/ 16 137/ 15 139/ 14 139/22 163/21 164/ 12 164/ 13 59/24 60/4 60/20 61/14 6211 62110 62/19
force [I) 65/22 164/ 14 165/24 166/2 166/20 167/4 167/6 62122 62125 63/3 63/ 12 63/24 64/ 14 64120
forefront (1) 19211 1 168/22 168125 175/ 18 175/ 18 183/ 16 183/17 64/2 165/ 1965125 66116611866122 67/ 19
foregoing (2) 22617 226/7 183123 183123 184/6 184/ 11 184/ 17 185/2 68/ 1169/ 1570/170/1070/ 19 70/2 1 7 1/3
foreground (2) 163/22 166/3 18S/3 185/21 186/1 186/3 18613 187/22 7111 0 71/ 16 72/20 73/4 78/6 79/3 79/9 79/13
forensic (9) 42/19 56/12 561 15 76/4 9519 188/13 188/ 15 188/17 188/ 18188/23 188/24 79/22 80/12 81/2 8113 8115 81/19 81/21
151/ 10 152113 181115 201/1 189/2 189/6189/8 189/12 190/7 190/2 1 84/ 12 84/24 89/4 89/8 90/8 97/24 101116
form (2) 27/ 17 215/6 191/ 11 191/12 191/ 14 191/16 191/25 192111 103123 104/8 105/ 17 10814 110/ 14 11 0/22
formation (1) 11/20 192114 194/8 194/ 14 194/15 195/5 195/ 10 110123 116112 118113 119/9 125/6 128/8
formed (1) 11/22 217/15 217/20 217123 221118 128/9 129/5 129/6 130/3 137/ 10 137/23
Forty (1) 170/24 garbage [3) 85/3 85/4 94/19 139/7 14214 146/7 147/23 151/4 154/ 1 IS4/6
Forty-six (1) 170/24 gas (2) 68/21 205/15 158/ 16 159/3 159/ 13 159/ 13 IS9/24 160/15
forward (2) 46/1 157/ 10 gasoline (4) 85/11 85/17 195/2 205/21 1621 I 162120 164/ I 16615 166123 166/25
found (70) 1212 1213 15/ 1815/ 193 1/ 12 gave (91 20125 6511 121/6 12911 129/ 11 169/20 17 1/ 13 171/ 15 17213 172110 172125
33/ 14 34/ 16 34/ 17 36121 36122 38/2 39/3 129/ 13 130/ 14 130/21 222114 113115 176111 179121 183/5 181119 193n
39/4 40/16 40/22 41/9 41/ 13 43/7 48123 GB 13) 104/ 15 104/ 17 104/24 195/9 209/7 210/14 212117 223/20 224/24
49/16 49/17 50/5 51/ 16 51119 52117 52/23 general [2) 133/25 208/ 11 224/25 225/1
71/771/771/ 11 72/1074/1175/2 176/576/8 generally l2) 126/ 11 8 1/8 golf (41 84119 17212 172/5 184/6
76/24 7717 77/24 78/21 79/25 80/ 1 80/20 generated 15) 43/443/9 44/ 111 81/3 184/8 gone (3) 79/15 125/21 191/3
89123 90/ 190/2 11 3/7 11 5/5 116/18 117/25 genetic (2) 45/2 52122 good 115) 21/5 27/23 60/20 93/24 93124
118/4 119/22 126/10 141/2 142/10 146/14 gentleman [5] 24/6 25/ 1 43/ 11 80/ 13 149/9 93125 95120 98/ 16 102121 105/ 13 115/11
150/ 14 157/ 16 161 / 18 164/6 169/ 12 169/14 gentlemen (3) 76/ 19 160/18 225/7 148/2 160/ 16 203/9 224123
169/ 18 170/6 171/5 173/ 12 188/4 19912 German (1) 42/6 goofll) 107/22
199/ 18 205/9 2 15/3 220/1 get [40) 23/3 23/7 36/10 39/7 44/4 44/8 got (33) 38117 55/7 70/ 10 80/15 81/24 81/24
21/18 21/19 28/23 28/24 29/1 29/1 29/2 208/23 209/3 209/20 210/23 21111 211/4
G 29/15 29/25 30/6 30/16 35/21 36/23 38/10 212112 215/25 217/7218/21 21911 1 2L9/23
got .. [27] 8211 84/24 94/13 108/11 110/4 4019 43/145/1545/2146/54619 46118 47/12 219/24 219/25 219/25 220/I 220/12 222/6
111/17115/12 129/12129/19132/2 134/10 47/13 47/22 48/4 48/9 50125 55/23 56/2 64/2 222/7 222/9 222/10 222/19 222122 223/8
134/17 135/15 147/14 162/15 165/22 175113 65120 66/4 66/14 66/25 6717 74/14 74/20 223/20 223/21 224/5
175/17 198/16 200/2 200/10 201/4 203/4 76/176/678/24 79/4 81/24 91/5 102112 haven't (3) 155/2 203/14 219/24
204/9 21 8/l 218/17 221117 102/13 102118 102/21 102123 106/19109/20 having [161 22111 45/5 51110 79/12 9515
gotten (2) 39/7 41/24 111 /10 113/ l 7 116/15 117/22 118/7 119/24 10014 102114 104/11123/8 133/9151/14
government (2) 220/19 220/21 120113 120/16 122/17 123/4 123/7 123/12 192124 194/6 200/20 204/12 220/3
grade (2) 90/14 95/6 123/1 8134/15 167/11 177/7 177/1 5 177/24 be (168) 9/12 11/6 13/22 17/1 26/14 27/11
graduate (1) 29/2 178/7 178/19 215/4 28/5 31/2 31/3 31/3 31/16 38/11 43/1 1 43/16
graduated (2) 104/15 105/l Halbach's [26] 33123 33/24 34/16 35/5 52/1 1 52112 52/24 52125 5415 54/20 54/21
graduation (1] 105/14 37/19 40/19 50/14 52118 55/l 56/10 66/21 54/21 54/21 55/2 55113 55/13 55/20 55/22
grandpa's (I] 131/9 72113 73/20 78120 80/18 80/19 95/25 14219 55122 55/23 55/24 5614 5614 5615 56/10
grandparents Ill 33/1 146/6153/22 156/6156/17 156/2 1 159/6 62115 62115 62/17 63/12 63/13 64/5 64/6
graphic (3] 48/4 64/4 65110 161121 169/11 64/6 64/7 64/11 64/ 12 64/22 64/22 64/23
grave (1] 76/20 half[5] 50118 5012185/16 85/ 19 183/3 6514 6517 65/1 1 65/20 65/23 67/15 67/15
gravel {l] 160/3 Halloween [S] 28/24 2917 29/9 4011 1 108110 68/5 69/13 69/13 7211 75/8 7519 75/10 75/13
gray [I) 127/5 band (IS] 23/3 32114 88/1 9 103/23 105/17 75/13 75/15 75/15 78/15 80/3 8119 81 /9 82/3
great[7] 21/839/4103/6152121 153/1 5 110/14 114/1 9123/6 136/24 140/ 14 141/12 8216 83/8 83/11 84/7 84/1 4 84/ 16 84/17 85/7
153/15 217124 147/18157/25 174/24175/1 85/23 85/23 85/24 85/25 86/3 86/4 91/6 91/7
greatest [lj 183/1 handcuffs (19] 65/4 71111173/14173/18 92119 93/5 93/5 93/16 93122 93/23 95/10
Greatly (1) 219121 176/14176117 213/5 213/10 214/21 214/22 95113 95/20 95/22 10111 8 101/ 18 10211
green (71 83/19 I04117 104/25 114/23 117/8 215/3 223/9 223/13 223/16 223/25 224/3 109/23110/2110/4 11 1/22111/2311 1/24
146/3 146/1 1 224/5 224/7 224/10 111/24 11 1/25 112/17 112/20 11 2/22 113/24
ground [1] 211/8 handed [6} 66/20 127/3 136/1 8 136/18 115/11 116/1 1 116/25 116/25 117/13 139/21
group [1] 115112 171/19176/21 168/18 173/25 17417174/8 174/8 174/13
Guard [lJ 129/9 handle Ill 51117 174/13 174/19175/11175/12 175/13 175/17
guarding (3) 4217 199/19 199/2 1 bandier [4] 153/16153/20 153/21210/10 175/ 17 175/17 181/14 18312 189/20 190/19
guess [41 80/1 7 124/24 135/2 142115 band ies (2] 173111 199/12 190/ 19 194112 194/12 194/13 194/16 194/16
guesswork (1) 20/7 handling (1] 52/24 194/18 194/19 194/22 194/25 195/1 195/4
guilt (4] 12111 12/16 19/14 20/9 hands (31 4/17 78114 87/24 195/7 195/12 195/12 195/13 195/13 195/16
guilty (25) 917 9/23 l 0/20 12/25 13/I 13/17 hanging [3] 38/1 38/2 73/2 208/2 208/4 212110 218/18 220/8 221114
1417 15/3 1614 1615 16/21 17/12 18/718/24 happen [5] 56/9 77/5 77/25 154/4 220/3 221/18 222/6 22218 222110 222/19 222/20
19/1 19/9 19/12 19/15 19/1719/2126113 happened [21) 33/2133/2239/1839/18 222/20
6017 60116 82116 97117 56125 58/24 59/23 60/1 6019 60/l 7 60120 he'd [1] 202117
gun [5] 38/2 73/11 73/13 73/14 187/5 64/174/886/1187/387/12 108118 151/15 he's 117] 24/6 49/22 55/17 55/2 1 64/21 6615
guns (l] 73/12 155/16162/15178/11 84/12 84/12 84/24 93120 93123 95111 128/12
gunshot [l] 74111 happen ing(2] 151/2200/ 13 149/14 181/16 181/24 182/3
guy (1) 21/4 happens [4) 31/23 48/4 59/3 216121 head [8] 67/4 67/5 73/15 74/7 74/11 74113
l!:UVS f31 115/24 125/18 131/2 bard [4) 64/24 103/5 128/20 209/20 74/14 93/24
harder [l ] 79/l headed (lj 190/23
H has (43( 617 6/2 1 6/25 18/4 24/12 26/14 healing [t ) 5217
H-a-1-b-a-c-h {2] 102118 123113 27/12 27/16 28/3 30/12 64/23 64/23 65/23 health 11) 203/9
habit (l] 130/24 79/20 84/8 84/ 18 85/25 86/4 86/1 2 86/23 hear [142) 5/20 6113 20125 21 /3 26/20 28/6
bad [142) 11/9 18/11 18/15 23/17 29/4 31/2 911195/1396/23 98/2 1110/14 110/18125/6 28/25 29/6 31/7 31117 31/20 33/13 34/8
3917 39/18 39/18 41/24 45/8 45/9 50/12 134/7 138/6 139/5 139/7 149/3 158/3 173/15 34/15 34/23 35/4 35/8 35/9 35/15 35/25
53/25 55/2 6916 82/7 85/ 11 86/23 86/24 175/21 177/4 178/12188/24 192/23 205/16 36117 36/25 37/17 37/20 37/24 37/25 38/4
87/23 98/10 100/10 103/6 !03/8 105/14 216/25 217/3 226/8 3817 38115 38/16 38/22 39/1 1 39/22 40/11
106/11 106/12106117106/17107/3107/4 hasn't (31 36/21 86/2 1 196/6 40/ 14 40117 41/1141/1341/23 42/16 43116
107/14109/13109/21llO/IO110/13 11 1/16 Hau (3] 2/3 226/4 226/19 44/6 44/15 44/19 45/6 46/5 4616 46110 46116
111123 111124 112/2 11 2/1 1 114/21 114/23 have [172] 4/20 5/4 5/14 6/24 7/ 1 8/2 815 46/22 47/10 47/ 12 47/ 17 47/25 48/3 48/19
115/11 115/\8115/18 115/20 11 5/21 116/10 9/20 9/2110/6 14/4 14/1417/10 17/1017/19 48122 49/2 49/5 49/ 13 49/23 51/1 5112 5115
116/18 117/ 1 117/4 118/9 119/4 120/5 18/23 21/6 21/14 22/122/72218 22115 23/24 51/IO 51/1151/1652/16 52118 5518 56112
120/15 122117 122/19 122/22 125/16 125/2 1 24/18 25/21 26/18 27/24 28/20 28/2130/16 56/ 13 56/16 57/9 57/13 57/14 57/19 58/7
12617 126/17 126/18 127/24 130/2 1 13 1/17 32/4 44/10 45/25 46/1 54/2 54/14 55110 58/ I5 58/18 58/21 59/13 59/20 59/21 59/24
134/12 134/13135/13 135/25 136/3 136/18 55/14 5717 581159/1759/19 59/19 60/11 60/6 60/8 60/10 60/16 60/19 60/24 61/9
136/24 139/ll 140/ 17 141/l 141/6142/5 61/3 61/16 62/1 8 63/3 63/15 63/16 63/ 17 61/10 6111161 / 14 62/1 0 63/12 64/ 17 64/20
145121 145/22 146/4 146/4 146/20 146/22 6517 65/12 69/15 69/23 76/ 14 79117 80/6 6412 1 65/19 65/20 65125 66/17 66/22 67/19
148/19 149/15 151/24 152/7 154/2 154/3 80/7 82119 82/20 86/15 86/16 86/18 89/11 6811 1 70/1071/1072/2173/4731773/16
156123 16212162/8162/9 163/2 163/14 9617 96/19 96/24 97/2 98/14 100/10 101/3 73/2 1 74/ 17 75/5 75/17 76/3 7816 79/3 79/10
164/15 16511165/2 166/13 166/22167/18 101/22 102/4 102/25 103/16 104/13 104/23 79/13 79/22 80/13 87/20 87/25 88/2 89/22
167119168/5 168/6 169/24 170/17 170/18 10517 105/25 10612 109/ 17 11 0/23 11 3/12 90/190/390/4 93/3 9412 95121 95/22 164/1
inn 173/25 174/5 174/8 17717 111115 114/2 120/13 121/5 12215 122110 122/14 166/18 177/12179/22 187/19195/19224/8
183/2 186/16 189/20 194/12 194/15 197/21 127/8 127/9 127/15 128/8 128/9 128/20 beard [19] 24/3 44/13 44/14 9215 100/4
198/25 205/25 206/2 206/10 206/24 207/8 129/5 130/4131122 133/2 138/1414219 106/11106/12109/21111/16112/2117/15
207/10 207/11 209/1216/521617 216/12 145/6 145/8 145/9 146/6 148/19 150/3 156/8 120/16 122114 131/18132114 132/20 160/25
216/1 4 21 9/4 219/6 219/22 220/5 221/13 15917 159/8 159/10 161/6 165/ 19 165/20 166/18 172/12
221/14 226/ 13 17217173/3 176/6181/1 181/2 181117 Hearing {2) 98/23 98/24
hadn't 141 109124 112120 112/24 157/16 189/18 189/21 192122 193/5 195/3 195/13 hears {2J 64/6 6416
hair 121 31/13 9017 195/14 195/1 6196/2196/24 197/16198/4 hearsay [I I 101/l
HAL BACH [83] 3/8 3/11 10/25 11/2 11 /6 199/7 200/7 20115 201/2 1 202/23 20517 heavy [2) 77/10 202/13
15/815/10 15/12 18112 18/13 18/1618/19 20519 205/1 8 206/3 207/12 208/6 208/9 height 121 182/1 182/2
home [19J 37/S 38/7 82122 82/24 82/25 83/7 220/25 221/8 223/20 224/25 225/ 1
H 83/13 83/21 85/24 86/4 86/7 86/7 104/9 I've (121 23/17 26/16 30/19 38/8 86/9 114/3
Heimerl (1] 164/2 107/19108/20 108/21 109/1111/20114/18 132/2 136/18136/24 141/7149/24 171/19
held [ll 142/12 homicide [141 8/18 9/1 9/17 9/20 9/24 10/3 idea [41 27123 27/23 40/S 41/4
help (17) 45/24 54/21 54/22 55/24 60/1 S 10/810/1410/2112122 25/14 27/10 53/16 iden (1) 213/3
64/12 66/16 68/S 69/2181/9 821ll 85/7 133/24 identification I.SJ 34/9 41/22 l 03/24 110/15
85/17 11218 130/3 180/l S 180/16 HON (1) I/I I 119/6155/6 192/19192125
helped (SJ 52/13 67115 67/15 69/13 113/25 Honor [7) 98/17100/3 IOI/IS 121112 identified (8) 51/6118/6119/21155/2159/9
helping (2) 24/16 175/17 160/ 13 196/21 202/1 196/10 211/21 213/S
helps [1) 55/24 hood (31] 34/3 34/4 68/14 68/16 77/S 77/6 identify (8] 75/20 103/14 110125 116/19
her (1041 I 5/13 29/4 29/S 29/17 31/21 32117 77/11 77/16 77/20 77/21 77/24 78/l 147116 121/21 173/23 206/12 208/24
32/19 36/21 36/24 44/14 46/15 4717 47/8 148/6148/8 148/11 148/14149/8149/12 identifying [1J 208/ l 4
48/12 48117 48/18 48/23 51/16 52/12 65/4 149/17 149/24 150/17 150/19 15212 20219 identity [11 208/11
65/24 66/5 66/24 67/3 67/S 67/8 67/9 67/9 20415 210/14 210/17 211/S 211122 215/21 ignition [SJ 40/19 40120 S1/23 51125 9012
6911711673115 74/20 75/1 76/11 79/I 79/11 hood's Ill 148/17 image (21 43/4 148/11
80/3 82/2 82111 83/18 103/4 103/ 11 104/7 hope [1] 37/9 images [13) 43/10 43/1 8 44/11 64/24 181/4
104/7 104/1 1 104/24 105/2 105124 106/3 hopefully [21 36123 163/1 181/S 181/9 181/l l 182/11 182/13 184/8
106/7 107/l 107/14 107/18 110/3 110/3 hoping [2] 36/24 204/19 188/12 188/13
110/5 110/6 110/ 17 110/19 11116 111/16 hospital (1) 83/20 imagination [1] 81/5
111/24 112/2 112111 112113 112/20 112/21 hour [41 11/18 55/10 85/16 85/19 immediate (IJ 210/16
11 2/21 112123 112125 113/6 113/9 113/13 hours [SJ 63/2 63/4 145/9 154/ 19 I 54/21 immediately (2] 34/20 162/25
115/5 115/14 116/9 116/12 ll6/12 117/3 house [221 40/2 69/7 69/8 83/2 83/4 84/6 impaired [1) 95/12
117/4117/51 18/9118/10118/11 119/8 89/25 108/12108/23 108124 115/12 116/17 importance (3] 6/10 26/23 133/24
120/1 122122 124/10 125/25 126/15 126/21 118/20124/41311413 1/9 141/24141125 important 1251 20/S 2 I /10 21 /13 21/17
126/21 126/22 127/1 127/25 129/3 130/21 185/21186/22 16/6216/11 23/10 24/19 28/128/1528116 30/2 32/7
130/22157/16163/1 173/9 177/24 224/6 how [721 5/5 26/8 26110 30/1 37/10 40/5 36/10 40/2144/2449120 55/21 71/13 71/16
224/7 4017 41120 44/6 45/2 48/11 51/13 52/8 52119 71125 72/11 88/24 91/18 94/25 201/19
here (46] 21/4 30/8 33/22 53/5 54/3 62/l 5619 58/15 6016 60/8 60/10 60/2163/1266/7 215/12
6516 67/25 71/24 87/1 8 88/ 18 88/22 97/25 66/12 66/14 67/9 80/8 93/16 93/17 94110 importantly 151 28/6 34/15 40/7 61125 78/13
100/9 101/25 102/8 132/21 13717 137/9 94/11 94/1194/2295/16 107/9 109/6 109/9 impound 121 138/6 141122
137/13 138/3 138/6139/12 139/ 17 140/10 109/11112/1 8 113/7 117/18 123/ 16 123/23 impressed [1) 88/17
141/14 141/17 141/23 141/24 147/10 147/24 124/1 126/12 130120 133/ 17 134/ JO 14214 impressions [1] 211116
148/13 159/23171/11176/6183/14 186/ll 143113 151/19 156/121 65/7 165/8 165121 improper 111 7/3
187/15187/24 188/9189/9192/12202/5 171/7 175/13 175/16 181/S 182120182/25 in-laws (1) 89/10
204/8 210/15 223/20 187/17 187/19 194/S 196/24 199/6 199/8 incapable [IJ 219/19
here's (1] 138/9 202/17 202/18 214/S 223/8 223/9 224/5 inch [11 183/4
hereby (JJ 226/6 however [6) 10/10 14/18 17123 20/23 197/6 incident (2) 197/16 221/14
herein [3) 102/14 123/8 133/9 213/13 inclement 121 151114 151/15
hers [1) 13114 human [21 1 10117 11/10 l l/12 35/19 35/23 include (13] 21/12 37/2 37/3 58/8 111/3
hesitate (1) 20/4 41/12 42/ll 42122 49/19 I 17/25 118/4 153/6 111/6130/8135/4 135/18 180/6188/12
Hi (lJ 123/ 16 153/6 153/2 1 154/S 154/11 184/1 207/17 215/6 217/24
hid 111 77/2 216/8 216/22 219/l included [8] 32/20 43/14 105/22 186/ 17
hidden (2) 208/20 208124 human's [ll 57/22 188/25 218/6 218/9 218/15
high (4] 75/12 82/22 90/13 104/14 humans (1] 42/2 includes 121 45/24 186/25
highly [I] 90/20 humor (1) 103/6 including (10) 11/23 37/4 67/4 100/13 102/5
highway [7] 143/21 143/22 143/22 144/2 hundred [3] 25/8 84/S 84/6 136/22 205/20 206/23 209/17 225/3
159122 159/23 171/18 hundreds [l J 49/8 inconsistencies (4] 92/9 92/10 95/3 97/JO
Hillegas(2J 115/11116/10 husband (4] 103/21 111119 115/20 12L/23 inconvenience (1] 21/8
Hills [21 220/6 22111 husband's Ill 11617 incorrect [21 208/12 214/23
him [221 25/4 66/S 93/5 93/14 95/5 95121 hypothesis (1) 19/19 independent [4J 92/3 92/4 219/25 223/8
IOS/2 110/3 111/20 I I 7/12 149/ 17 168/ 14 hvnothetical 121 159/4 205/24 indicate 13J 80/22 95/11 179/3
193/12 194/21199/24219/13 221/13 221/17 indicated (7) 26/18 5512 100/ 13 197/14
22216 222/9 222113 222/14 I 199/23 200/12 222122
himself ISi 63/ 10 65/7 78/14 82110 174/18 I'd (4] 4/14 89/11134/2 21717 indicates (2] 91/6 118/17
his 1s1 J 11110 32117 32121 3313 33/4 38/ 12 I'll [9) 22110 46/20 56/18 71/24 82/ 19 97/25 indicating [4) 7/10 35/21 38/17 174/ 19
38/13 38113 50/5 52110 52/24 52/25 55/2 121/10 150/17155/ 10 indication [I) 208/21
62/18 63/13 64/24 6616 67/1 68/23 71/12 I'm [109) 4/19 23/18 25124 25/24 28/14 individual [91 28/8 2811l3512258/19 69/10
78115 82/3 82/8 82123 83/2 83/9 83/1 2 83/ 16 28/22 321147/1447/14 47/19 56/17 61/25 69/10 90119 150/8 203/9
83/19 83/23 84/13 84/ 18 84118 85/8 85/20 63/24 66/1 70/21 75/8 98113 98/20 105118 individually [1) 193/9
86/3 89/23 89/23 89/24 90/1 90/2 9112 9112 106/24 10717 108/4 110/14110/22J 10/23 individuals (31 149/5 150/22 198/7
95/4961196/3 96/3 9717 97/13 101/25 112/18113/7 117/3 118/13 119/9121/13 inept [3] 90/16 90/19 95/12
108111108/12131/9139/13139/21149/17 123/1 7125/6 128/8 128/9129/6 130/3 132/4 information (171 6/4 8/16 36/6 55/19 57/17
163/21 166/2 166/3 l67/4 168/14 168/19 133/19 133/25 137/1 139/7 139/17 139/25 5817 59/19 87117 99/5 99/18 177/23 177/23
168/22 174/18175113 176/3 187/24 187125 141/11 141/20 142/21143/6143/23146/7 194/6 194/9 197/ 16 208/10 21111
188/8 191/2 19118 193/13 193/13 194/ 10 147/23 148/13150/l1 15113 151/5 15313 informed (6) 98/13 lll/11117/ 19117/2 1
208/5 213119 213/20 213125 220/8 220/10 153/10155112 156/10 157/4157/19158/3 117/24 134/11
221/15 158/10 158/16 158/21 159/3 160/5 160/15 initial (SJ 162/16 162/25 163/2 165/ 13 210/8
history (IJ 25/15 163/18 165/24 166/5 167/14168117 169/2 initially (3) 194/18 195/1 200/1
hit [I I 35/20 17112517213 172110172/ 11172/25 173/15 innocence [4) 19/6 19120 87/22 88/16
hold (3] 127/18129/17205/20 178/14181/118215 185/8 185/ 11 189/24 innocent [6] 19/8 29/12 60/11 60/18 88/I I
holder (I) 187/1 7 196/12 199/15 199/21 200/3 202/22 203/18 88/20
holding [2) 21/21 121/25 205/23 208/l 209/7 209/11 211/23 214/2 inquired (1) 194/11
holds [l] 128/4 214113 215/1l217/6218/10 220/12 220/23 inquiry 131 181/1 193/5 202/13
78/14 90/22 116/24 136/9 136/9 172115 jean (I] 128/2
I 195/21 198/20 201/15 203123 223/7 jeans [44] 78/15 79/9 79/9 79/13 79/14 79/ 15
insensitively Ill 35117 investigators (12) 24/24 25/17 39/11 41 / 15 79/ 15 79/17 79/18 125/23 12612 126/6 126/7
insentence (1) 35/ 17 48/24 5514 5618 59/1 59/16 67/ 14 93/4 126/9 126/10 126/ 13 126/ 16126/25 127/4
inside (15) 64/7 64/18 71/7 164/7 170/8 144/ 17 127/8 127/1 I 127/12 127/16127/19127/2 1
170/ 16 172/8 186/7 186/ 15 188/ 16 188/1 8 involve [1) 82110 127/22 127/24 128/4 128/5 128/8 161/ 12
189/ l 199/ l 207/12 207116 involved (22] 24/15 24/24 25/9 30/23 36/18 161/21174/17174/25175/l 175/14 175/21
inspect [1) 42/5 39/2 1 48/25 49/10 58/13 59/6 60/19 60/21 176/2 176/5 19417 194/ 12 218/17 2 19/11
inspection [1] 201/12 63/10 101/20 109/ I 6 I 16/3 125/1 136/12 219/20
instance (2) 87/10 162/23 144/22 201122 204/13 210/6 Jennifer (31 2/3 226/4 226/1 9
instances (21 92/6 220/1 involvement (3] 81/ 14 89/19 21 1/12 Jentzen [l) 74/10
instant (1] 11123 involving [2) 24/20 90/5 JEROME Ill 1/11
instead (7) 8214 82/4 8215 8217 82/7 82/8 IQ [1) 90/ 15 Jerry (2] 135/ 17 198/21
82120 ir [1) 215/23 jigsaw (I I 26/8
instructed (51 5/14 27/16 5417 94/21 9617 Ironically (1) 31/17 job [11) 63/21 63/2 1 68/468/5 6817 76/ 18
instruction [l) 96/9 irons [13) 65/4 71/11173/13 173/21 176/23 7719 86/22 93/24 93125 118/ 11
instructions (6] 3/3 4/20 4/22 5/3 8/ 12 20/25 176/25 177/2 215/23 216/10 21 6/ 14 223/9 Jodi (3] 69/6 6916 80/23
instructs [1 J 87/1 223/ 12 224/ 10 JoEllen (3) 47/2 177/18 177/20
insured (1) 82/4 irregardless ( l J 101/21 John (2] 7817 149/10
intact (II 156/16 is (529) Johnson (1) 99/15
intellectual [I] 93/13 ish [3) 84/ 17 155/13 156/1 join (1) 136/9
intelligent [2 J 90/20 95/1 8 isn't [9] 45/ 17 72/1 2 81/2 8917 96/2 1 97/I jot (2] 68/2 68/4
intend (3) 27/5 27/13 100/ 13 169/9 185/12 201119 judge (43) 1/1 1 5/1 21 /24 26/2 27/8 27/ 16
intended (11 21/23 isolate (1) 95/21 27/2 1 28/3 28/20 35/11 53/9 53/18 5417
intends(8) 9/ll9/1913/2114/3 17/117/9 issued (1 ) 145/7 69/17 8211 6 87/189/694/2196179619 97/21
53/12 53/ 13 it (334] 120/18 122/4 12217 123/1 13213 132/ 12
intent [17] 10/1 8 11/6 11 /8 11/ 14 11115 it'd [lJ 207/19 133/3 145/2 145/ 14 16111 161/24173/3
11/20 11/22 12/2 12/2 12/6 1216 1217 14/25 it's [112) 21/8 23/16 26/5 26/5 26/5 26/24 178/24 192/2 1 195/25 196/9 196116 208/1
15/ 14 15/18 15/18 15/22 26/25 27/23 28/16 28/19 30/10 30/10 30/l l 20817 224/14 224/18 225/9
intentional (12) 8/ 18 9/1 9/ 17 9/20 9/24 10/3 34/ 19 34/19 34/25 34/25 36/9 38/24 45/2 Judge's (l] 23/4
10/8 10/14 10/20 12/22 27/10 53116 50/13 50/22 50122 52/19 52/20 52/22 52/22 judges (1) 7/11
intentionally (19) 9/2 915 918 9/ 16 I0/4 58/16 59110 59/22 59/25 6019 62124 63/ 1 judgment (l] 19/4
12123 13/13 13/15 13/18 14/l 14/12 16/17 6317 68/4 69/11 69/25 7217 84/13 84/1 6 judicial [2) 35/ 11 145/13
16/1916123 17/61 7/ 1734/1147/4208/20 85/21 86/1 86/13 86113 87/2 88/20 89/1 Julie (SJ 153/111 53114153/161 53/21 154/3
interaction (1) 94/16 89/14 90/1190/12 90/15 92/17 92119 93/ l junked [91 30/ 12 32110 3717 37/8 37/ 18
intercour (1) 18/12 93/22 93/25 94/10 94/23 96121 96/22 101/6 40/23 49/12 77115 143/14
intercourse [SJ 18/5 18/14 18/ 1618/20 101/ 16 104/1 105/20 106/23 107/1 110/17 junkyard 141 30/12 11 6/13 143/4 21 1113
65/24 118/ 16 119/8 119/ 12 119/1 5 121115 126/10 juror [7] 5/4 617 10/ 10 14/18 17/23 20/24
interesting (2] 63/5 63/5 127/5 127/ 11 128124 129/ 19 130/l 130/2 2 1/ l
interestingly [2) 56/4 78/23 130/6 136/19 137/18 145/5 145/71 45/8 jurors [20) 4/16 4/18 5/25 7/ 11 1016 14/14
interior [3] 186/4 187/8 191/ 11 147/14 148/2 149/l 159/13 160/20 161/16 17/19 2217 60/14 98/4 98/1 1 102110 137/J
interiors [l) 43/22 162/1 162/1 7 16412 164/ 10 172/5 173/1 137/5 143/19 160123 162112 224/24 225/3
internet (1) 208/13 173/ 18 174117 184/4 187/17 190/ 17 199/8 22515
internship Ill 104/25 204/9 206/10 210/14 211/22 2 11/24 2 13/22 jury (77] 1/4 3/3 4/15 5/17 6/4 7/23 8/ 12
interpose 111 208/2 215/12 220/2 21/7 30/25 54/4 63/17 69/ 18 77/9 8 1/2 81/ 12
interrogation (5) 59/2 5917 61 /1162/1297/7 item (4) 44/9 146/2 159/ 1 196/6 81118 87/2 18811896/12 98/ I 98/20 102/8
interrogations [4J 57/ 11 57/1 1 57/15 58/5 items [31) 44/16 44/ 17 79/25 84/22 84/25 102122 103/18 I 03125 104/2 I 06/22 I 08/8
interrogative 111 57/ 15 85/ l 145/4 145/22 151122 151/25 169/8 110/ 12 110/15 111/13 11 6/6 118/ 14 126/5
interrogator (1) 94/ 15 170/ 1172122 173/24 173/24 180/25 181/2 1 127/ 19 128/ 11 129/8 129/18 129/24 130/3
intersection [3) 137/9 137/24 138/13 181/22 192113 200/19 201/24 205/ 14 205/18 132121 134/ 16 134/21 139/5 140/2 1 141110
intersects [1] 144/2 2 17/4 217/24 2 18/9 2 18/10 218/15 2 18/16 14213 144/25 14611 146/ 19149/9 151/19
interview [4] 99/2 101/9 193/25 195/22 2 19/23 220/2 153/25 156/5 157/10 159/14160/19162/10
interviewed [1] 49/23 its [SJ 99/6 9918 150114 15216 166/15 166/5 166/12 168/13 179/17179/21 181/9
interviewer 121 93/2 94/15 itself [9] 12/15 21/22 21/23 50/4 7515 107/3 182/9 182/ 13 182119 183/13 187/7 189/24
interviewing 111 56/16 136/16 156/24 165/7 190/2190/4 194/5195/ 18 202120216/19
interviews (4) 56/12 56115 57/10 58/5 224/8
intricately (1) 100/15 J j ury's [4) 69/12 81/ 11 154/10 2 15/13
introduce [3) 28/22 100/13 12 111 J. [l) 133/13 just (120) 21/17 23/1 23/3 23/ 19 23/20 23123
introduced [3) 6/9 8/9 20/22 J. Fassbender (1) 133/13 25/2 1 25/25 36/5 37/ 10 39/16 39/23 41/9
introduces Ill 99/19 jacket (3) 174/4 174/7 174/8 42/9 43/8 46/17 48/2 48/7 50/2 52/8 61114
introducing (1] 99/7 Janda [28) 32/18 38/ 12 38/12 41/6 43121 63/3 67/25 71/24 72112 72/ 18 73/13 74/7
introduction [l] 23/ 14 46115 83/17 137/19167/23 17 1/2 171/14 74/ 13 74/23 75/15 77/21 77/24 78/9 80/20
introvert [2] 90/16 93/14 172/19 172/21 172123 183/9 183/ 15 183/22 80/25 8 1/2 8 1/3 82/5 84/23 86/9 87/1 8 8812
inventory [1) 145/12 184/4 184/11 185/23 190/9 190/ 13 19211 92122 94/10 94/19 94/20 96/10 97/21 99/2 1
investigate (1) 133/23 192/3 213/10 2 14/12 223/10 224/l 100/20 100123 105/25 108/12 112/ 19117122
investigation [30] 23/24 25/6 25/13 25/14 Janda's [2] 46/19 224/4 119/211 19/24 121/21 12 1/2 1122/10 126/8
25/14 29/l 4 30/3 30/4 30/5 30/22 33/16 Janda/Dassey (12] 17112 171/ 14183/9 128/ 12 133/2 134/2 134/ 19 137/16 139/19
39/17 48/6 50/16 5112 54/25 93/l 107/2 183/ 15 183/22 184/4 184/11 185123 190/13 14213 144/3 146/10 146/19 150120 15 1/2
117/201 19/25 133/21134/ 14135/24 136/5 192/ 1 192/3 2 14/ 12 151/3 152/15 153/17 153/19 154/10 154/17
136/8 136/10 197/l l 201/17 203/22 211/12 Jason [2) 83/9 83/16 155/4155/20 156/ l 157/1 158/19 160/18
investigations [21 134/l 136/12 jaw [I] 76/11 161/8 161113 161/23 166/5 167/15 169/ 19
investigative I1) 45/22 Jaws (2) 207/14 208/3 170/20 172/11 172111 179/20 180/8 182125
investigator (151 25/2 56/13 58/20 58/23 Jay[l) 113/24 183/12 183/13 185/ 14 187/14187/22 188/1
201/3 210/20 215/8 219/25 226/14 22/8 54/12 160/21
J known (8] 61/22 61/25 62/2 78/2 134/7 lay (1] 44/5
just... [161 190/8 191/8191/23 192/23 196/5 13517 144/22 161/18 layer (1 ) 50/20
196/7 196/15 197/18 202118 209/4 209/10 knows [8) 9/15 13/25 17/4 79/7 81/15 86/4 laying [21 66/25 202110
211120 215/23 216/11218/8223/4 142/3 160/19 lead (101 23/22 24/24 74/5 74/5 136/4 13619
Justice 151 4/8 24/6 25/5 133/20 135/23 Kohl's 141 79/10 124/14 126/11 127/11 144/17 198/20 201/15 203123
Kornely [11 83/24 leadership (11 25/19
K KRATZ (53) 1113 3/5 3/9 3/12 3/15 3/17 4/5 leading [2] 57/3 211/3
K-912) 35/16 153/20 416 4123 4/24 20/24 21/3 23/16 53/21 54/2 lean [1) 148114
K-9s Ill 42/3 86/11 87/588/491/197/1997/20102/8 leaned (3] 34/4 77/12 147/16
KAREN (5] 3/8 102/12 102/13 102/18 108/4 102/11 120/25 121/2 121/3 121/9121111 leaning [4) 148/8148/ 15 149/18 149/25
KATIE (20] 3/1179/479/11 103/16 107/6 121/13 12213 123/3 132/3 132/8 133/16 leaping [I) 166/15
107/8 107/9 107/10 107112 121/24 123/3 160/13 161/20 161123 162/4 162/5 162/6 learn (7] 2517 25/11 29/15 30/3 56/6 90/18
123/7 123112123/16124/16 125/16 126/17 173/7176/9 176/11 178/24179115 192/21 149/9
128/23 130/23 132/2 193/2 193/4 195/25 216/16 223/3 223/6 learned (1) 136/2
Katie's (1] 79/4 224/13 learning (21 29/25 30/1
keep {7] 7/22 25/25 25/25 114/20 118/21 Kratz's [2} 202/13 205/24 least (53} 22/2 23/7 24/14 25/13 25/22 26/19
171/15 201/15 Kucharski Ill 224/9 30/4 311132/435/17 36/14 37/12 38/1 41/16
keeping (1] 117/19 43113 43/16 44/2 46112 49/1 54/18 67/4 6917
keeps (I] 69/24 L 74/1 1 87/24 100/14 101/12 10212 105/22
Kelly (SI 103/17 107/6107/8107/9 121/24 lab [32] 31/12 31/18 36/4 38/23 39/2 39/13 106/11 110/1113/15 115/21 118/10 119/14
Kelly's (IJ 107/11 41/14 44/20 51/4 7315 74/I 78/8 149111 124/16 125/25 127/22 131114142/1 146/25
Ken [3) 4/6 23116 73/25 149/1 4 151121 154112 154/1 7 200113 201/11 147/2 150/8 152/1 7 154/8 155123 156/16
KENNETH [1) 1/13 201/16 201/23 203115 203/20 214/1 1 214/13 157/15162110166/20 16812 172112 192/24
kept (51 7/24112/23 117/21 155/23 166/16 214/18 215/9 21717 218/24 219/10 219/19 21 1/9
key (22] 40/16 40/17 40/18 40/1 8 49/ 16 50/4 219/23 leaves [3) 51/24 83/ 16 83/21
5014 52/18 52/24 52125 68/22 78/20 78/21 Laboratory (3) 151/ 10 15 1/17 152/12 leaving [2 1 82/4 94/1
9012 128/24 129/2 130/2 130/8 130/9 130/11 lack (5) 20/2 6619 6619 93/9 95/23 led (1) 43/14
130/13 130/l 7 ladies (2] 76/18 160/18 leeway (I] 101/23
keys (1 ) 128/25 lady [2) 79/3 102/23 left [27] 32/14 51/14 52/24 52/25 67/4 74112
kidded [2] 79/ l l 79/11 Lakes (2] 152/21 153/15 74/19 76/6 76/11 78/9 80/9 109/l J21/23
kids (4] 103/10 105/12 105/13 108/2 land (2) 44/5 183/21 125115 148/13 149117 157/3 157/5 158110
kill 18] 10/181 1/611/8 11/14 11/22 12/2 landmarks (1) 137/5 159/21 159/22 159/24 163/21 166/7 170/25
29/11 66114 language (3} 58/22 65110 65/13 175/ l 190/21
killed [51 46/5 6717 9115 126/18 131/6 lanyard [10) 128/23 129/3 129/9 129/1 l left-hand [21 32/14 175/1
kind [59) 23/2 23/2 30110 33/12 34/19 34/24 129/17 129/21130/6130/13 130/1 7 130/21 leg (16) 45/13 65/4 71/1175/23173/13
34/25 36/8 40/1 40/4 40/23 42/4 44/1 44/2 lanyards (1) 129/16 173121 176/23 176/25177/2 215/23 215/23
44/4 44/4 45/3 47/2 48/154811851/13 55/25 large (16] 3212 34/2 34/3 67/16 67/21 6817 216/10 216/1 4 223/9 223/12 224/10
5616 58/9 58/23 59/11 60/13 60/22 64/25 68/8 74/19 77/10 136/25 138/3 155113 legal (2] 5/21 27/14
66110 661 10 71/17 79/12 79/18 84/12 86/1 164/23 168/24173/1 181119 Lem [l] 117/l
86/14 104/20 105/10 106/20 107/13 107/24 larger [2] 146/8 148/11 LeMieux [31 117/1 117/4 11717
110/9 118/24 12417 126/6 127/19 131/20 largest [3} 25/12 25/12 44/19 length (I] 11116
135/1 137/3 148/10 178/12 179/l 190/1 laser (5] 136/24 148/10 183/12 187/23 lengthy Ill 21 /25
198/8 201/19 209/10 219/3 219/8 190/17 Leslie [IJ 73/17
kinds (6] 51/15 52/21 63113 68/2 124/2 last 1281 30/5 60/24 70/14 70/22 92/19 93/8 less (2] 47/1 8 183/3
124123 102/ 17 110/24 111 /24 112/l 112/14 112/21 let [18} 5/8 21/10 22/20 22/24 24115 36/5
knees fl I 175/4 11 3/4 113/5 113/6 113/13 115/14 115/14 43/8 56/18 6317 67/25 117/22 142/3 170/3
knew (13] 28/1 1 30/25 62/17 80/2 102/23 120/12120/12123/11131/20133/12 141/7 178/23 199/24 200123 207/9 215117
112/17 112/20 112/22 112123 113/6 117/11 188/12 192120 193/4 202/24 let's [14] 2112 48/6 10217 12117 126/8 147/8
118/4 220/19 Lastly (1) 80121 156/24 162/6 182/19 200123 204/8 207/9
knife fl] 66/20 latch [2) 77/20 77124 215/19 219/18
knock [II 64/16 late f1) 89/3 lettering (1 ] 128/1 8
knocks [2} 64/5 64/7 later [341 31/21 35/8 36/11 40118 42/20 43/2 level (2] 90115 9516
know (100] 9/ 18 14/2 17/8 21/8 22124 24/15 43/17 47/20 51/6 56119 63/2 70/6 70/9 79/19 liability l2J 27/18 28/17
26/10 26/16 28/2 30/21 30/24 31/6 34/12 84/10 91/8 94/22 10112 101/4 101/13 116/15 license [12} 40/22 68/15 77/13 77/15 168115
3818 42/2150/1 750/ 17 56/25 57/5 59/1 8 116/17 161/10 162/13 16717 168124172/17 169/11 170/1 170/6 170/7 I 70/15 170/19
59122 59125 6019 60/17 60/19 60/2 1 61/9 17517 187/19193/16 195/19195/22 196/11 171/4
69/24 69/25 70/2 72/17 78/2181/781/8 216/13 lies (1] 97/12
81116 84/4 94112 101/24 104/1 1 104/12 Laude (1] 104/16 life [8] 11/9 20/5 2915 29/10 82/2 103/7
105/25 108/25109/3 109/ 10I 10/9 110/18 laundered (3] 21911 121 9/18219/24 207/14 208/3
113/6 113/8 114/21 115/17 116/8 116/14 laundry (1) 188/9 lift (2] 202125 203/2
117/9117/11 118/1 8 119/15 120/4 120/4 law (52] 1/20 1/22 5/7 5114 11113 19/6 25/8 like [42] 48/2 51/20 55/14 59/22 72118 74/7
124/10 126/1 126/4 126/5 126/7 128/2 27/21 27/22 27/23 27/24 35/12 36/25 37/13 74113 74/23 75/ I 75/15 77/25 80/20 80/25
128/23 129/1 129/21 129/25 130/16 130/20 44116 48/14 49/8 62/2 77/18 78/2 87/2 90123 86113 86/14 91/18 93122 94/2098/17110113
131120131/24135/14 142/1 143/19148/1 7 99/9114/25I16/20 117/15 117/18 127/14 118/22 124/5 124/24 124/25 125/23 125/23
151/5 153/3 154/23 156112 17211 0 176115 135/1 135/3 135/9135/17 138/15 140123 128/l 7 132/14 135/2 135/11 140/24 158/7
176125182/20182125 189/3 195/18 199/6 142/4 142/7 144121 145/2 146/5 146/20 161111 174/6 186/16199/18 205/ 13 205/15
199/9 199/19 203/16 203/22 204/2 207/13 149/5 162/17 162/21 169/25 177/21 180/13 209119 21214 216/8 217/12
208/13 210/21212/10 215/12 215113 215117 197/20 198/3 20216 204/20 208/2 224/19 liked (3] 105/12 131/22 131/24
knowing (2] 8 l/14 209/18 lawnmower (I] 85/10 likelihood [1) 99/7
knowingly (3] 9/12 13/22 17/1 Jaws 11} 89/10 likes [1] 131/23
knowledge /16) 9/ 10 I 3/20 16/24 2218 55/I lawyer [1] 25125 limited [I] 161/25
59/15 198113 199/4 199/22 199/25 200/24 lawyers 19] 5/21 5/22 5/24 6/24 20/17 20/l 9 line (15] 141/4153/9 154/1 154/6 156/18
Lur (1) 153/15 22 1/2 1 226/7 226/13
L lure [lJ 38/10 maximum [lJ 183/3
line... [IOJ 156/21 158/6 158n 158111 lures 111 46/8 may [62) 5/ 19 6113 7113 7/20 814 8/22 9/23
158113 16912 1 204124205/5 210/ 11 212/18 10/ 19 11122 12/10 13/7 14/7 15/3 16/ 12
lined [2) 140/ 10 176123 M 17/ 12 20/ 11 21/ 1222/126/926122 26122
link [1[ 161/ 17 machine [3) 46/ 19 128/ 10226/ 10 27/2 28/7 30/24 31/6 52/9 5219 53/ 18 54113
listen [4[ 21/9 23/9 66/3 82/20 machinery (4) 155/13 155/15 156/ 1 218/ 16 6011 1 62118 63/9 8717 91/12 94/7 98/18 9912
listening [2) 7/18 225/ l made (17[ 717 30/15 38110 46/23 63/9 63/ 12 100115 100/16 100/2210119 101/16 123/2
little (44) 21/25 26/10 30/19 36/11 38/9 78/3 82/3 82/3 148/17 15117 15119 166/17 133/1 133/2 142/9 142/17 145/6146/6 154/5
38/24 42/ 13 42/20 43/3 50/6 5017 74/2 74/4 179/1 186/12 198/23 20 1/ 1 160/ 13 162/4 165113 195/3 202/1 205/9
75122 79/179/1779/19 83/ 12 84/ 14 84/ 16 Madison [6] 24/6 36/3 36/3 15 1/ 18 152/12 208/ l 210122 219/ 11 219/25220/12 224/15
84123 85/ 12 87/ 11 101/ 13 104/4 104/21 200115 May 13 [4[ 91/ 12 99/2 100/22 101/9
124/4 12512 12813 128/ 13 128113 128118 magazine [14) 2911929/20 29121 3012 46/8 maybe [SJ 50121 83/ 1587114 205/ 12 206/ 17
13412 134/19 141120 159114 165/ 13 166/6 47/4 7114 105/5 105/23 105/24 112/1 118/ 10 me [60) 5120 20/25 21/3 21/10 22120 23120
17112 195/2 195/4 203/4 212/3 212113 178/4 178/10 3214 3615 43/8 47/2149/ 1953/1 53/7 53/10
live [1 J I04/8 mail (2) 110/3 11 2125 53115 56124 63/7 63/8 66/16 67/25 82120
lived [IOI 32/22 103/ 19 103/20 103/22 104/3 mailboxes [1) 83/4 89/6 8911 19311295119 101111 103/12
104/6 1681 10168/ 11169/6213/ 15 main [3) 115/ 17 186/19 190/25 106/1 71 07/4109/23110/8 111/ 17116/24
Lives [1) 84/5 mainly [11 114/ 12 11 7/1 117/ 12 117122 123/22 124/3 127/5
living [2] 32/18 191/4 maintained [5] 135/9 142/12 154/ 16 154/16 134/11 142/3 147/ 1 148/23 164/3 164/4
load (1) 6717 154/ 19 17013 174/1 8 178/23 182/4 205123 209/ 10
loaded [SJ 3611 52/12 74/ 16 74/24 20117 major (2) 136/12 137/5 213/8 217/22 219/5 219/10 219/ 19 223/22
locate (7) 11218 159/ 10 206/3 207/20 209/3 make [28) 20/17 21/14 25/ 17 35/1 38/25 225/2 226/8 226/9
20916 209/ 14 45/3 57/24 60/ 17 65/ 17 88122 93110 9517 mean (71 25/24 60/14 179/19 199/ 14 206/ 14
located (40) 30/8 32/14 32/24 7219 118/19 96/11 96/17 96/18 97/9 99/21 103/9 111/6 206/ 18 218/10
134/24 135/13 138/1 138/5 138118 13911 130/24 139/22 146/22 156/19 158/24 201123 meaning Ill 22/6
139/3 140/ 12 14115 144/ 1 146/4 146/6 15218 210/15 216/9 217/8 means [91 1113 11/8 19/22 20/2 23123 28/ l
156/4 157/2 15811 158/5 158/ 13 159/9 Makeover (1) 108120 92/2 178113 215/ 17
168/23 169/4 169/9 169/ 18 169122 169123 makes (11) 34125 46/18 56/ 1 57/5 57/6 6 1123 meant [SJ 22/17 50/22 70123 181/ 10 181/20
173/13 174/4174/ 18180/22 187/2 18817 63/ 18 64/ 16 64/ 19 83/ 13 90/25 meantime (1) 111/ 19
189/7 191122 194110 217/20 makeup (1) 96/3 measure (1) 181117
location (19) 35/6 13417 134/10 134/13 male (4) 39/3 39/9 39/13 215/4 measurement [2) 183/1 212/10
134/17 134/18 135/12 139/16 144/8 150/14 man (14) 30/14 31/1 53/14 63/10 68/4 68/5 measurements (8) 43/17 181/ 18 181/21
151/8 15216 15218 154/ 14 158/4 165/2 201/2 68/7 73/4 76/18 77/9 7817 8113 8118 81125 181/23 182120 182/22187/92 1219
210/18 211/5 man's (1) 66/4 measuring [l) 181/ 15
locations [2] 39/3 208119 manage (2) 202117 202/19 media (I) 197/ 18
locked [7] 98n 154123 199/2 199/6 199/8 manipulate (1) 150/4 meet [SJ 83/ 10 83/ 16 90119 93/6 9316
199/8 204/10 manipulated [4) 95/ 16 95/ 17 95/17 9717 meeting [I J 55/ 10
logical [t) 92/24 MANITOWOC [17) Ill 2117 21/20 23/20 meets (1( 83/ 18
long (6) 63/2 84/1 1 119/9 14214 169/8 23/2 1 24/1724/2230/930/ 10 30/11115/13 member (11 82/8
196/24 135/18 136/2 200/1 200/9 220/18 226/2 members [9] 77/9 81/ 1 81/18 111/ 13 112/6
longer (1) 47/20 manner [ l[ 206/20 114115 135/3 153/15 198117
look [27) 1211 15/ 17 32/4 3218 38/25 46/ 1 manually [1) 182/22 memory [7] 7121 8/8 50125 9515 223/8
48/ 16 70/13 70/14 75122 79/ 19 91/2 1 91/22 manufacturer (1) 208120 223/12 223123
11 1/21 114/2 126121 130/12 146/15 16811 many [IS) 6/5 30/24 37/ 10 41/ 1744/ 1 5917 mental [I) 1119
180124 198/14 199/ 11209/ 17215/17 215/ 18 95/2143/ 10 143/ 13 16317 182/202 17124 mention [2] 106/ 15 150/23
21717 223/21 223/8 223/9 224/5 mentioned (23) 26122 100/21 104/12 104/ 19
looked (ll) 112/20 114/24 126/24 157/11 map (l] 181/ 16 107/3 115/20 122/17122/18 122/19 122/20
15817 161/1 1 186/16 199/18 204/20 206/16 mapping 1.11 181115 122/22 125/ 16 135/25 137/7 139/11 140/16
207/1 Mar (1) 195/20 141/1 6 143/3 153/18 158/20 162/8 165/ l
looking [46) 34/10 36/22 37/19 58/22 112/11 March [19) 6219 62/11 62/14 62120 63/25 187/5
112/23 119120 141110142/20142/21143/ l 70/9 71/15 71/17 72/3 89/3 172/12 172/17 mere (1) 2017
143/8 146/9 147/ 10 147/24 150/ 15 157/ 14 189/ 13 193/7 193/21 195123 219/ 15 223/ l l merely (1) 20/8
158/25 159/15 163/ 19 165/19 167/ 16 170/ 1 223/ 17 mess [2[ 85/8 85/13
17116 173/2 173/8 183/6 184/5 184/ 12 March 1 [12[ 6219 62111 62/1462120 63/25 message [6[ 38/5 38/6 38/18 84/ l 110/4
184/13 185124 185/25 186/11 186/13 187/ l 70/9 71/ 15 72/3 189/ 13 193/7 193/2 1 219/ 15 110/7
187/ 13 190/7 19 1/2 19113 191/ 10 198/11 mark [7) 1/19 4/11 24/25 56/13 73/22 90/22 messages (2] 112/20 11 2/25
204118 207/16 208/24 209/5 215/8 136/9 met [2] 92118 135/3
looks 111 128/ 17 marked (2S] 3/18 103/23 105/ 18 106/24 metal [31 68/8 76120 148/ 18
lot (191 22/9 33/ 11 36/6 57/14 59/ 13 61112 110/ 14 110/22 118/ 13 119/5 125/6 129/6 methods [I) 207/22
63/465/25 107/ 16107/2 111 2/11 131/23 139/8 143/23 148/25 149/22 150/11 155/6 Michels (I) 160/ 10
188118 188119 201/21 209/222 15/10 218/6 158117 163/ 18167/ 14171/ 19 172125 173/ 15 microphone (2] 102125 161/4
21818 178/ 1 192/19 192124 middle [SJ 24/7 156/ 11 159/7 172/1 209/1
lots (61 33/9 49/8 49/8 75/2 75/2 75/2 Marlin 121 37/23 67/2 might [1 61 28/6 44/2 44/9 55/14 109/8
lovely (1) 28/22 maroon (2) 40/8 167/17 157/20 160115 188/ 17 196/6 200/22 208/ 19
loving (1) 103/4 married [ll 109/13 209/ 13 209/14 209118 212/12 218/ 13
low [SI 90/15 93112 93/ 12 93/ 13 9515 massive [2) 3317 49/ 10 Mike (12) 83/23 83/24 84/2 103/ 16 11111 5
low-educated (1) 93112 match [81 31110 31/14 31115 45/ 13 50/ 12 11219 11 2/16 11 2/16 11 7/11 11 7/ 12 117/ 12
lower [6[ 140/ 13 141/12 147/ 18 157124 73/8 76/9 203124 121125
160/2 174/24 matched (1) 51/7 Mike's (1) 121/ 19
LP (1) 164/ 12 matches (5] 34/ 12 40/ 18 45/3 51/3 51/21 mile [2] 103/21 104/6
lucky [3] 8 1/24 81/24 82/1 materials [2] 7/16 120/6 milked (2) 108/ 19 115/2 1
lunch [2) 97/24 98/7 matter (8) 98/1 8 100/6 100/1 1 10214 212/24 Milwaukee 121 4/8 24/9
Mr. Austin (4) 43/15 43/25 182/21 192/17 161116166/16 198/13 19914 199122 199/25
M Mr . Avery (10] 3116 3 In 31115 46114 55/11 20113 209/4 211/17 212/ 15 212115 215/8
mind [3} 1211 15/ 17 64125 6516 67I I 67/11 68/22 164/15 215115 218/15 220/ I 222124 223/12 226/9
minor (1) 100/21 Mr. Avery's (7] 32116 40/2 43119 80/ 16 226/13
minute (7] 11/19 25/21 48/7 53/9 53/19 I06116 169/20 178/2 1 mvself 131 23/ 10 121/25 193/12
71 /25 160/18 Mr. Oas (1) 137/20
minutes [6) 47/18 5012 53/24 83/3 84/ 1 Mr. Dassey (181 21/ 17 56/3 67/ 14 67/20
N
84/10 99/3 169/20 173/23 174/17 175/6 175/8 naked [11 182112
Mishicot (1) 193/ 16 176/18 177/ 1 193/6 193/ 10 193/22 194/6 name [31) 30/ 14 31/21 3211732120 38/12
miss (1) 209/ 13 194/ 11 195/22 38/12 38/13 43/1146/ 1246/14 47/1 51/12
missing (11) 29/16 30/4 48/20 79114 109/21 Mr. Dassey's [7J 27/8 59/3 171/22 174/4 73/5 78/7 79/4 80/14 80123 83123 102117
111/12 113120 114/ 1 114/7 134/14 204/15 189/14 19218 194/ 10 10211 7 102/23 106/13 122/15 122/20 122/22
misspoke [II 185/8 Mr. Edelstein (2) JOO/ I 10116 123/1I 123/11 126/10 133/12 133/12 174/5
mistake (1) 216/9 Mr. Ertl [31 781 11 149/ 10 150121 name's (1) 23/16
misunderstood (l ] 199/16 Mr. Ertl's (1) 149/13 named [41 31/20 134/24153/ 11 153/ 11
mode [I} 58/ 19 Mr. Fallon (3) 24/3 24/5 223/20 names (l ] 107/5
model (3) 11116 18212 196/ 15 Mr. Fassbender (7) 39/ 12 55/ 19 127/ 17 narrative (2) 56/24 56/24
modeling (1) 186/5 133/17155/5 212/1221122 national (2] 5/10 129/9
models (11 182/l Mr. Fremgen (31 4/25 100/ 1 160/24 nature (31 96/4 133/25 166/24
mom (5) 33/283/ 1285/2186/313 1/ 16 Mr. Gahn (3) 24/9 24/ 10 24/12 near 171 23115 51122 55/22101118 155/14
moment (3] 43/8 6612 150120 Mr. Kratz (11) 4/23 20/24 86/11 87/5 88/4 156/22 166123
Monday (8] 38/23 39/16 39122 112122 911197/1910218 120/25 162/4 216/16 necessarily (41 198/4 205/4 208/14 218/2
115/ 15 157/16 164/3 164/8 Mr. Kratz's (21 2021 13 205/24 necessary (7) 5/20 1217 19/14 26124 26/25
moral [3J 61/4 66110 66/10 Mr. Mark [l] 24/25 145/17 190/18
more (38] 26/4 40n 42/ 13 45/ 18 4917 55120 Mr. Newhouse [l ] 73/6 necessity [1 1 179/6
57/1 57/1 5712 59/18 59119 61125 65125 Mr. Schmitz (1) 178/11 neck 121 128125 129/3
71/20 86/13 95/ 17 104121 105/ 10 119/24 Mr. Stahlke [l ] son need [201 11117 11/19 22124 22125 23/1
14912 15on 151115 t55/9 158/22 159111 Mr. Tom (1) 25/3 26/ 10 30/20 33/ 12 42121 50/16 51/1 51/1
160/14166/18 175/7 184/2 1 188/ 17 188/ 19 Mr. Tyson (1) 188/2 60122 87/ 19 88/ 19 89/ 17 94/5 111/21 155/4
191/24 195/4 208/4 212/3 212123 212125 Mr. Wiegert [14) 25/1 55/20 56/19 58111 215/16
213/22 69124 111114 121n 12819 128110 128111 needs [3] 22/23 85/24 100/16
morning [12) 21/5 30/16 33/17 3417 46n 129/5 136/24 175/21 176/10 neighbor (l] 89/ 10
46117 48/22 48/23 53/ 10 224/ 18 224/22 Mr. Wiegert's (3) 105/ 17 119/9 127/3 neither [4) 213/13 213/ 18 216124 217/3
225/4 Mrs (2] 138/10 177121 nephew (3] 66n 6611 1 89114
most (17) 20/5 21113 22/14 26/17 41/ 1 57/20 Mrs. (11] 102121 106/19 109120 111/ 10 never 14) 86/3 100/21 203/ 13 203/ 15
58/20 71113 72/ 11 78/13 87/24 88117 119114 11 3/17 117/22 118/7 119/24 120/ 13 176/18 new (2) 55117 93/22
124/10126/4 178/9 21119 177/1 Newhouse (2) 73/5 73/6
mostly (1) 124/9 Mrs. Halbach (91 102121 106/19 109/20 news [I) 11 6/16
motel (2) 193/ 16 194/9 111110113111111122 118n 119124 120113 next 1261 7/24 21/ 12 25/4 32116 37/ 15 40/1
mother [9] 821883/20 193/ 13 194/ 10213/25 Mrs. Tadych's (2) 176/ 18 177/ 1 40/ 13 43/2 47/7 47/8 74/3 84122 92113 92121
21412 21413 214n 220110 Ms (17) 28/23 29/1 2911291229/15 30/16 103/20 104/3 109/4 117/15 117/24 139/19
mother's (1) 84/ 18 31/2 1 34/16 45/ 11 47/13 53/1 11 6/8 11 6/ 14 147/ 14 150118 171/1181/1 181/2 18817
motion (2) 29/10 29/ 11 116/ 15 177/ 15178/7 215/25 nice [l) 102/25
motive [6] 1217 12/8 12/9 12/ 10 12/13 12/15 Ms. 17] 29/25 30/6 44/ 15 44/23 51/4 6717 Nick [ll 51/ 12
Motorola (4) 80/18 110113 110/ 19 111/8 177124 night 1141 35/8 75/9 78/16 84/14 8515 8612
mound (8] 185/4 18514 18515 18516 185/ 19 Ms. Culhane (3) 44/15 44/23 51/4 107/25 108/18108/19 11 3/24 13118 131112
191117 191/17 191119 Ms. Halbach [4) 29/25 30/6 67/7 177/24 174/9 220/23
move (16) 42113 58116 104/9120119132/3 much (131 2214 53123 55/4 55120 71120 nights (31 107/2 1 107/24 130123
147/8150/9151/1 1 157/10 157/ 19162/6 94/22 97/18 107/9 123123 124/ 12 175/7 Nikole [4] 33/18116/3 116/9 11 6/17
19611202/16202/ 18 202/21 203/ 10 188/ 19 197/ 16 nine (1) 167/3
moved (2) 3/18 155/18 mud 121 211/3 21116 no 11501 115 47/20 69116 71/23 71123 7216
movies [l] 107117 mundane (1] 92114 7218 72111 72112 76/5 76/10 8215 9016 9016
moving (5) 59/9107/2 155/ 15 185/ 17 190/ ll murder [SJ 57/21 6712 1 69/11 82/11 95/25 9016 9on 9017 90119811 103124 103124
Mr (61 54/12 80/14 80/15 174/12 177/8 murderer [1) 81/ 15 105/ 18 106/24 I09/5 109/14 I09/19 110/15
179/9 murderer 's (1) 81/16 11 0/23 111/1 6 114/5 11 517 118/14 11 8/17
Mr. (106) 4/23 4/25 20/24 21/17 24/3 24/5 muscle Il l 45/9 11 916 11 9110 120/ 17 120/24 121/6 121/10
24/9 24/10 24112 24/25 25/1 25/3 27/8 3116 must[23] 7/17 8/7 9/ 18 9/25 10/ 10 1012 1 121/13 121/19 122/7 122116 122123 123/ 1
31n 31115 32116 39112 4012 43/ 15 43119 11124 1212 1311 14/2 14/9 14/ 18 15/4 15/ 18 125n 12112 121110 121118 129n 129110
43/25 46/14 55/ 1155/ 1955120 56/3 56119 16/5 17/8 17/14 17/23 18/8 18/25 19/ 16 130/4 13017 130/ 12 132117 132125 136/13
58111 59/3 65/6 67/1 67111 67/14 67/20 20/22 96/20 136/20 137/4 139/8 140/1 141/8 141/9
68/22 69/24 73/6 78/1 1 8017 80/16 86/1 1 mutilate (31 29/12 67/13 8211 1 143/24 146/8 146/25 147/8 147/23 149/22
87/5 88/4 91/1 97/19 99/3 100/1 100/1 101/6 mutilated (4) 15/7 45/19 68/10 75/1 150/12 150121 151/1 153/10 155/3 155/6
10218105/17106/ 16 117/ 14 11 9/9 120/25 mutilates (1) 14/24 156/25 158117 159/12 161/5 161/12 161/20
121n 12113 121111128/9 128/10 128111 mutilating (131 13/3 13112 14/2 14/4 14/8 163118 164/9 164/2 1 165/3 167/2 167114
129/5 133/ 17 136124 137/20 138/10 149/ 10 14/ 11 14/ 16 14122 15/9 15111 15113 27/ 10 168/ 1 168117 16912 170/3 170/ 14 170/22
149/13 150/21 155/5 160/24 16214 164/ 15 67120 171/ 19172/3 173/ 11 73/7 173/20 17412
169120 169/20 171/22 173/23 174/4 174/17 mutilation (3) 42/25 53/17 69/1 1 174/15 17612 1 183/5 183/19 184/3 184110
175/6175/8 175/2 1 176/10 176/18 177/1 my 1561 21122 22110 23/3 2311 6 47/14 47/14 185/17 186/10 187/13 188/5 188/13 188/2 1
178/11178/2118212118812 189/14 19218 47/19 53/22 64/14 70122 89/ 10 89110 89/ 10 189/3 189/5 192/19 192/25 196/2 196117
192/17 193/6 193/10 193/22 194/6 194/10 89111 10116 103/2 103/2 103/21 108/ 10 198125 198/25 199/2 199/4 20111 201/9
194/ 11 195/22 202113 205/24 21211 216/16 108/ 11 111119 112116 114/ 18 116/7 121/23 20213 20215 202122 203/3 203/12 203/14
221122 223/20 123/20 124/4 125/2 125/ 12 131/9 134/1 1 203/24 204/2 204/3 204/3 211/1 211116
Mr. and (1) 138/10 137/1 154/8 158/20 161/1 161/1 161/5 211/18 214/8 214/25 215/1215/22 15/8
62110 62/22 63/15 64/9 6519 67/7 69/20 often (5] 89/5 109/6117/ 18 117/2 1 158/20
N 70/22 75/6 83/ 17 84/ 17 86/4 86/9 8619 86120 oftentimes (5) 54/11 59/ 16 59/17 92125 93/3
no... f9) 215/22 219/ 1219/2219/3 219/8 87/4 87/18 94124 100/24 105/ 17 105/21 oh 121 121n 140/23
219/8 223124 225/8 225/9 118117 119/ 14123/25 129/ 17139125 140/15 oil (1) 194/ 19
nobody f5) 69/ 17 80/181/ 15 146/22 211112 141111 14211 143/23 144n 148/ 14 153120 okay [60) 2114 57/23 9819 11 3/8 117/18
nobody's (l) 212/17 155/12 155/25 156/12157/4 158/3 16016 119/1 122124 125/3 126/8 126/12 126/17
nodded Ill 87/24 164/15 16516 17211 173/23 175/6 17512 I 127/18 128/5 129/1 130/23 132/19 132/24
noncrushed fl ) 156/ 17 176122 182/4184/ 12 185/17 186/4 186/23 160/ 17 178/20 183/ 19193/ 1 197/9 198/11
none (2) 98/23 98/24 189/3 190122 191/3 19212 192/4 197/9 198116 199/ 13 202120 203/1203/4203/ 13
noon (2) 46/17 100/9 197/ 19 198/3 200112 204/23 205/23 206/6 205/1 7 206/9 207/5 207/8 207/15 207/19
Norm (1) 4/8 209/25 220/ I 220/4 222115 223/7 224/1 20818 208/18 208/23 209/ 10 209/16211/24
normally [I) 126/10 nowadays fl) 208/13 212/10 212/17213/2 214/9 215/10 215/1 5
NORMAN (l) 1117 nowhere (2) 55/12 55/13 216/4 216/8 217/9 218/21 218/24 219/16
north (18] 137/8 143/2 144/ 1 155/ 18 157/5 number (30] 10124 11/5 15/7 15/ 11 18/ 11 220/ 11220/18221/2122219222119 22212 1
157/8 160/ 10 171/ 17 171/2 1183122 184/ 12 18113 18115 34/9 34/10 38/ 14 38114 54/20 224/20
184113 184/23 18818 190111 l 91n 19219 54120 61124 6214 62124 88/5 88115 9219 94n old (19) 28/24 29/ 12 63/14 66123 82112
192110 97/6 100123 114/3 127/6 170/19 175124 84/20 85/ 13 85/14 85/ 15 90/12 90113 93/12
northeast(3) 114/1 1 141115 16019 21215 21216 21218 217/1 4 109/11 123/16 126/15 126/16 13817 138/25
northern (2) 30/10 187/6 numbers 111 208/15 141/22
northwest (4) 32115 139/ 10 139117 183/ 10 older [31 123121 123/22 123/23
not (168] 5/8 5/ 12 5115 5/23 5/24 6/14 7/5 0 oldest 121 103/2 103/ 15
7/6 7/9 7113 7117 8/2 8/23 10/6 11/14 11/17 o'clock 15) 97/25 98/3 9815 109122 199120 Olson I I I 73125
11119 1216 1218 12112 12115 12125 13/ 1 13/8 object (2] 7/2 145/3 once [6] 106/9109/8 110/1 15514 183125
14/14 16/4 1615 16/13 17/ 19 18/13 18/24 objection (191 717 7/9 100/ 19 100/24 100/25 219/12
18/25 19/5 19/9 19/2 1 20/6 2019 20110 20/15 10111 120/20 120/24 12216 132/13 132/17 one fl02) 10/12 10/16 10/24 14/20 14/24
20/23 21/7 21117 21/23 2215 22120 23/ 1 160125 16112 16116 161/7 179/8 196/4 15/7 17/25 1814 18/1121/1222122 22123
25/ 12 25/18 26/ 13 26122 3212 37/12 40/5 196/17 208/2 2317 25/ 12 29/ 17 29/ 18 31/ 12 31112 36/14
4214 43/17 43/23 43124 44123 50/24 5219 objects [I) 148/3 37/ 11 37/1737/20 44/9 4516 4517 54/20
56118 57/12 5819 6011161/246211 6215 obscured (1) 147/2 62124 6815 6816 72/6 72/8 74/12 74/ 13 76/10
62/ 15 63/5 63/18 63/20 66116612569/13 observation (1) 209/4 8211 87/2288/2 92/12 92/2 1 9212 1 94/8 9612
69113 69/19 70/19 71/2 73113 75/13 76/23 observations [4) 97/9 153/25 154/8 210/15 97/ 1197/15 97/25 98/2 98/5 98/14 98/18
78/2 81/19 82123 87/4 88125 89/21 9018 observed 12) 134/22 145/22 109/22 115121 119/4 120/2 126/14127/ 12
90111 91124 92124 93/20 93125 9419 96110 observing [2] 7119 19015 128/3 128/24 130122 139125 144/ 17 150/8
961219612291119111198111 98121 99n obtain (2) 90123 198114 150/9 151/11 152123 153/17 157/ 13 158/22
99/17 99124 100/10 100/ 14 102122 109/5 obtained (9) 35/9 35/15 4916 55119 16219 159/ l 159/7 163/14 176/17 177/2 183/3
11016 11215 11 2118 113/7 115/23 120/ 17 193/22 211116 21216 21218 186/24 195/24 198/25 199/4 199/ 10 199/10
127/2130/16131119 136/13 14116 143/6 obtaining (2) 49/ 1 57/17 20212 1203/8 212/1 1 213/9213/1 1213/13
158/21 167/6 179121 180/18 18219 18219 obvious (4) 39/ 16 41/12 41/ 18 87/ 16 213/ 18 213124 213/25 214/9 214/10 214/20
182115 184/7 188/20 188/25 190/2 190/3 obviously [8] 21/ 17 42124 84/4 113/1 122118 215/3 216/5 216/12 216/24 21713 217/4
t93n 196/12 19914 199n 199121 20013 151/ 13 207/8 214/17 217/ 14 218/14 221/6 223/24 224/2
20113 20119 201/10 202/18 202120 202122 occasion (3) 17217207/142 19/23 one-half[I ) 183/3
203/19 204/ 17 204/21 206112 208/12 209/6 occasions (2) 37/12 166/ 13 one-ma n 11 I 68/5
210117 210119 211/2 214/7 214/15 214/20 occurred (2) 21019 220/2 ones [3) 71/25 214/12 214/17
21516 21 5/ 11215/ 162 17/6 217/24 218/6 occurs (1) 59/4 only [1 7] 5/6 618 25118 37/13 40/5 43/18
218/9 218/24 219/22 220/ 1 220/ 12 220/25 October (27] 46/4 4616 65/2 79/ 16 80/22 50/25 75/ 13 76/23 81/ 15 9418 97/ 15 99/10
note (3) 54115 92112 94/25 8212 184/ 1486/1 1 106112108/510819 11215 167/6 182115 200124
notes (16) 7114 7/17 7120 7122 7125 54/8 108110 109/11 109/ 16 11114 112115 120114 Oop [11 189124
54/1 154/1668/ 1 68/I 94/6 94/6 9419 94/ 10 120/ 15 127/25 131/6 13 1/ 17173/25 174/9 open [5) 114/20 160/8 160/12 188/24 209/23
215/17 226/9 177/9 178/22 194/1 3 219/12 opened (51 37/18 77/ 16 204/17 207/6 20717
nothing (4] 23/22 62/11 90/7 122124 October 30 [2) 108/5 111/4 opening [2 11 3/4 7/ 15 20/17 20/18 20/23
notice f6) 22113 24/12 33/8 33/24 142117 October 31 [7) 80/22 82121 86/11 108110 21122 22110 23/6 23111 2612 27/6 53123
155/14 174/9 194/13 219112 54/13 60/25 64/ 14 70/23 86/12 91/3 98/25
noticed [2) 98/25 126/ 14 odd 12) 11017 11 2122 100122 172113
notified [l) 10212 off (20) 32/3 3213 48/ 18 48119 5519 6116 6118 opinion (7) 7110 74/ 10 147/5 150/7 159/5
notoriety [l) 31/3 62/13 77/2 82125 85/1 91/4 97/22 107/23 202115 20517
novel (41 86/ 14 86/ 15 86/21 87/4 133/5 173/6 186/5 188/ 11 204/142 1111 4 opponent 121 99/12 99/24
novels (3) 86/ 15 86116 87/8 offense (4) 15/4 16/ 1 18/8 19/7 opponents [II 101110
November (30) 29/ 16 33/ 17 3417 3711 6 4818 offen ses (3) 8112 26/14 27/9 opportunity (91 20/ 19 26/3 86/23 86125 8818
54/23 7111810912211 1/ 10 112113 113/ 17 offer (3) 9118 12214 14217 88/13 I00/6 10213 10215
11 3118 114/9 11 5110 116/l 11 9/ 13 122114 offered (5] 6/15 21/6 91122 9911 1 99112 opposing [1) 98121
134/4 134/6 14216 142/11 146/ 17 162/8 offering (2) 196/12 196113 opposite 121 34/17 161124
162/14 164/8 169/17 179/17 18 1/ 13 193/8 office 141 4/9 138/4138/8 141/17 orange 12) 155/13 156/ 1
19812 officer (7) 99/ 18 10113 101/ 17 127114 206/6 orange-ish/yellow [2] 155113 156/1
November 12 Ill 142/11 208/3 216/9 order (2) 12113 145/ 1
November 15 (IJ 119/ 13 officers [35) 25/8 38/ 141123 41/25 4212 ordinary (1) 20/3
November 3 (l) 109/22 42124 43/5 44/17 49/9 49125 5616 59/21 6011 organized (2) 11 5/ 13 118125
November 5 (6) 122114 134/4 134/6 142/6 62/2 68/12 69/20 70/ 10 71125 90/2 1 90123 origin (1) 5/ 10
181113 198/2 90/25 91/9 93/IO 95119 127/14 135/18 original [11 144/7
November 6 [11 54123 135/ 18 144121 146/21 149/6 165/ 19 169125 Originally [I) 157/6
November 7 (1) 164/8 202/7 204/20 20819 other (59) 7/4 7/8 2312 24/14 30113 37/4
November 8 (1J 169/17 Official (3] 214 226/4 226119 37/6 37/14 40/ 1 521205212 1 55114 55/ 18
now [82) 8/ 11 20/ 1723121 27121 28/ 14 36/5 officials (1) 177121 58/ 12 61/22 62112 73/ 12 79125 85/ I 9214
41/4 44/13 44/15 50/12 53/4 56118 5919 offset (11 141/3 92/22 97/12 103113 103113 111/13 112/5
participated [3) 54/6 91/7 101/19 110/6110/9110/17 110/20 l I0/25111/1
0 participation [l) 95/8 111 /7 111/10 112111112/1 7113/8 178/ 18
other... (33] 11216 112/10 ll3/20 114/14 particle (l] 147/19 178/20 178121 197/14
114/15 117/23 124/19 124/22 131/7 135/17 particular (27) 11 /15 31/ 12 42/5 4217 42/8 photo (8) 3217 42/9 47/6 80/6 121 /4 140/ 13
138/1138/l 139/25 141/4144/21148/ 19 52115 66/2 66/2 73/25 74/22 75/19 76/5 76/7 140/14 168/19
148/20 150/22151/2 152116 154/ 13 155/ l 76/20 129/17 130/9 140/15 143/18 150/4 photograph [36] 40/4 130/4 130/7 136/21
15619 159/11 165/8 186/5 189/9 206/1 152/18152123 165/18 171/6181/18 205/8 141/5 141/13 147/25 148113 149/1 150/13
206/22 207/2 1216/8216/8 224/ 19 207/21217/23 150/ 15 151/3 155/8156/2156/11 157/1
others (6) 36/18 105/11123/25 150/4 201/22 particularly (2] 101/22 15519 157/22158/ 10159/17159/18159/21 159/24
206/17 parties [4] 5/22 5/24 6/10 96/14 163/20 164110 167/3 167/20 168/15 169/3
otherwise (2] 7/21 203/9 partner fl l 111/11 170/5 170/15 170/21170/25171 /21 172/1
ought [2j 63/20 63/23 parts [3) 24/ l l 55/23 14717 172/5 174/21
our (17] 2114 32/4 73/ 16 74/9 97/9 IOJ/20 party [19) 8/ 18 8/21 9/24 13/3 13/7 14/8 photographed [2} 170/8 170/10
108/24 114/18 115117 116/17 121115 12211 1618 16/11 17/13 27115 27/16 28/19 99112 photographer (4) 29/3 29/17 29/19 106/ l
13 l/4 160/16172/12 196/11 224/18 99/24 99125 101/9103/7 108/14131/l I photographers 111 29/23
out (63) 15/18 43/24 46/9 46115 46/20 46/20 pass Ill 87/ 14 photographs (11} 33/9 38/19 49/25 8817
48/17 55/1157/45917 60113 60115 70/ I 82/6 passed [1) 88/15 104/2 149/25 159/12 184/7 192116 199/ 17
85/20 86/12 87/6 87/1 2 88/4 98/4 99/4 passenger (8) 51/22 52/l 147/11 148/1 148/7 204/24
101/13 111/20 111/21 113/7 114/ 19 127/11 148/15150/1 150/16 photography [6) 71/6 !03/10 104/25 105/4
141/20 143/8 143/19 148/17 149/2 149/24 passive (2] 58/19 95/13 105/6 105/21
150/17152/6154/3 157/4160/23 162124 past (1] 153/9 photos [7) 22/15 37/8 47/23 48/1 105114
163/16167/19 171118 173/19 173/22 174/12 pastor Ill 89/11 167111 168/13
176/25 177/2180/24 185/5 185/11190/20 pat[l) 93/23 phrase [l) 60/8
191119191/21210/7211/10 213/10 213/11 path 121 40/23 211 /4 physical 171 27/1 27/3 50/1 61/21 7017 70124
214/9 214/12 215/25 216/5 216/10 225/5 pathologist [lj 74/9 214/20
out-of-town [1) 143/19 patio [l) 164/18 physically (41 94/16 199/15 201/7 217/25
outbuilding (11 33/10 patrol [SJ 43/12 170/13 18017181/ 12197/6 pick (11 202/25
outside (6) 6/1 3 39/24 80/ 12 113/ 18 132/20 patrons (1 ) 144/4 picked [7} 127/ 11 150/3 202/23 219113
185/14 pattern [l) 211 /15 220/ 11220119220/21
over (261 7/8 1\/17 59/24 59/24 59/24 78/14 pause Ill 20/4 picking (IJ 84/20
8417 84/15 85/22 85/22 89/7 106/9 107/20 pay [l] 8/6 pickup (2] 164/ 14 167/4
124/4 124/5 124/ 11 124/12 128/ 10 143/8 PDA [4) 119/2 119/8 119/12 119/14 picture [25] 26112 33/21 104/1 105/ 12
182/22 19111200/3200/4 210/14 212/13 Pearce 13] 104/25 109/23 lll/17 105/20 106/3 106/5 107/1 121/15 121/16
212/18 peek [2) 87/15 207/ 12 121/ 19 121/22 125/9 125/ 13 143/10 146/8
overall (I] 197/10 peep [l) 32/12 148/2 14917 166/4 168/14168/19 170/24
overcome [1) 19/10 peers [11 95/7 171111171/12 184/18
overview [5] 26/6 41/4 136/22 159/14 196/7 people [23( 23/15 26/7 39/13 60/7 6017 pictures [12] 29/23 40/ 10 47/3 52/6 67/23
overwhelming [21 25/10 44/22 60116 60/ 18 61/16 68/3 76/ 19 103/9 105/25 105/11 !05/15 106/1 106/8 106/17 118/ 10
own [5] 103/21104/7105/2 105/3 127/16 111119 112/10 112111 I 15/12 121/22 162/20 20619
owned [12) 79/8 119/3 126/3 126/6127/13 200/ 14 201 / 16 202/16 202117 204113 piece [15) 26/10 31/13 32/ 12 73/18 73/ 19
127/24140/7 160/416017160/10161/19 people's (lj 126/16 73/20 73/25 77/ 10 130/ 1147/ 18150/5
168/10 Pepin (1} 99/14 155113 155115 15611 181/ 15
p Pepsi [l] 131/24 pieces [3J 2617 217/ 18 218/16
perceived (JJ 61/5 pile [31 79/J 84/22 169/ l
p.m [14] 4711098/ 11102110134/19144/ 15 percent (2) 45/20 72/ 16 piles [IJ 209/5
144120 146/16 160123 162/2 162/3 193/17 perception (1) 168/2 Pilot (1] 119/15
197125 225/5 225/ 10 performed (4) 40/15 95/ l l 16517 165/8 ping [11 48/18
pack [11 I 18/24 performing [lJ 115/2 pit [13] 45/8 68/ 13 7515 76/2 76/8 76/23
packet (1) 177/22 perhaps [8] 23/7 58/11 71/13 74/1 78/13 89/25 138/23 142115 143/4 143/1 1 160/4
page (2] 3/2 110/24 144/12 167/22 178/25 210112
Pagel [5] 135/ 17 135/25 136/6 144/9 198/21 period [21 36/9 205/ 10 place (14) 7/24 30/6 30/7 30/8 30/9 36/14
pages (IJ 87/14 permission (4] 33/19172/18 198/ 14 198/16 66/24 81/20 81122 145/3 145115 158/22
Paine [2) 170/11 170/ 16 pers (1] 17/ 10 193/15 214/10
paint {6] 68/21 78/6 78/ 12 85117 85/17 195/3 person [52) 1/24 8/23 9/3 9/5 916 917 918 placed [81 35/5 147/21157/8170/ 15 170/20
pair (15) 79/8 126/7 127/3 127/11 173/18 9/ll 9/12 9/14 9/18 9/21 10/18 10/1913/8 191/13 205/19 223/ 16
173/21 174/11 174/ 17 176/2 213/9 216110 13/ 14 13/15 13/1613/1713/18 13/21 13/22 places J9) 22117 24/14 36/ 12 36114 51 /20
216/12 223/25 224/2 224/7 13/24 14/3 16/ 13 1611816/ 1916/20 16/21 52122 68/6 7711 113/5
pairs [1) 224/5 16/23 16/25 17/2 17/3 17/818/5 19/619/24 PLAINTIFF (1) 1/4
Palm (2) 119/15119/19 20/3 39/20 48/20 51112 82/188/18113/21 plan (3) 29/9 29/11 162/13
Pam [6] 33/19 116/3 116/6 11617 116/17 114/ I 114/7 125/14126/15 134/14 14513 planned [1) 115/9
116/25 202/21 221 /23 plastic [2] 129/19 129/20
panel [4] 51/8 148/16 150/1 150/ 1 person's 151 12/1 12/9 15/17 58/9 61/20 plates [13) 40122 49/17 68/ 15 77/13 77/15
pants (5] 78116 78/ 16 84/13 174/19 221/15 personal f2] 5/8 119/1 169/11 169122 170/2 170/6 17017 170/15
paperwork (1) 214/15 personally Ill 21215 170/ 17 17114
paraded (l} 20215 personnel [7] 25/9151/21 163/13 180/5 play (l] 63/ 16
Pardon [1] 219/5 180/13 200/2 201111 played Jll 196/9
parked (3) 167/5 190/ 15 191/ 12 persons [4] 30/5 39/20 145/16 204/ 15 playing Ill 83/22
parks (11 124/25 perspective (4) 91120 157/20 168/2 197/10 plays [3] 60/21 83111 19011
part (19] 5/23 12/13 52/l 75/23 75/24 75/24 perspiration (2) 52/2 l 52125 please (94) 4/4 4/l 5 4/16 4/17 68/2 68/3
87/16 88/11 9916 105/5 105/23 118/11 130/8 pertain (lJ 98/19 102/16 102/16 102/22 103/1 103118 103/25
133125 143/5 165/3 179112 196/13 203/22 Pethan [1] 152/8 104/5 105/ 19 106/22106/25 107/5 1I0/12
part-time (2] 105/5 I 05/23 phone [28] 38/4 38/6 38/ 14 48/17 48/18 69/4 110/ 16I13/23 114/6 118/15 119/7 119/11
participate (2) 22/22 22/23 80/ 10 80118 80/22 83/6 83/8 85/21 110/3 12 J/14 123/5 123110 123/ 10 123/18 125/8
p 142112 219/20 prosecutors (3) 4/1024/18 24/21
presentll9] 10/23 15/6 18/10 54/18 86/1 8 protective {31 162117 162/24 210/2
please... [64] 126/5 127/19 129/8 133/11 86/23 8815 88113 89/17 89/ 18 93/7 98112 prove [lS) 9/25 10/21 12/12 14/9 15/4 17/14
133/11 133/18 134/16 134/21 136/20 139/9 153/20 193/13 201/4 20119 201/10 217/25 18/8 19/5 27/13 53/13 76115 79/1 81/692/3
140/2141110 14211 8 142/25 143/24 144/25 222116 9714
146/1 146/9 147110 147/24 148/23 149/23 presentation 131 2411 54/9 9112 proven [l] 18/23
150/12 150120 151/19152120 153/25 155/7 presented [41 5/7 5/ 14 70/1 5 213/8 provide (8] 7/16 8/20 13/5 58/6 69/20 88/8
156/5 156/25 157/21 158/18 159/6 159/16 presenting [l) 24/1 1 95/3 120/8
161/4 162/12 163/19 164/9 166/12 167/16 preservation [1) 57/23 provided 16) 81/8 118/9120/2 148119
169/16170/4170/14 170123 171/20 172/4 presses [l) 95/19 148/21 175/22
173/2173/4 174/3 174/10 174/16176/1 presume [21 88/10 88/20 provider [I) 110/25
176113 178/2178116 179/18 183/7 184/3 presumed [1) 50/13 provides Ill 16/10
186/1 I 187113 188/14 188/22 194/5 221/7 presumes [1 ) 19/6 proximity 12] 35/6 212/21
Pliszka 111 47/1 l presumption [3) 19/8 87/22 88/16 prudence (2) 19/4 20/3
plot (lJ 86/16 pretty (41 55/4 124/3 124/12 202113 psychological (2) 96/2 96/3
plowing (1) 111120 prevent[l) 166/19 psychologist [l) 95/9
plus [2) 156/3 180/8 previously (3) 4/2 1 145/23 159/20 public [3] 61125 81/7208/ l1
Plymouth [2) 167/17186/1 primarily (1] 8/7 publicity (1] 6/6
plywood (3) 14717 147119 148/5 primary (2] 163/3 164/17 pull (3] 93/19 95/21 102125
pocket [21 174/24 175/l principally (1] 161/17 pulling 121 166/15 191123
point (22] 4/14 42124 55/21 58/25 59/1 59/2 prints (II 211/14 pumped (1] 180/23
5914 62116 62117 65/17 90/8 91/6 98/15 9914 prior (12) 10213 122114 127/24 146/22 151/2 puppy Ill 93122
126/17142110 149/10 150/17 155/20 157/15 152115154/3 17717197/2 197/14 198/3 purchased (4) 110119 125/2 1 125/22 16119
158/6 204/18 200/12 purpose (12) 9/21 11/9 14/5 15/16 17/11
pointed [8) 30/22 53/6 86/12 87/5 88/4 141/2 prison (2) 31/4 31/16 20/18 92/25 101/24 16211 163/3 204112
149/24 154/2 privately (l] 140/7 207/ 15
pointer (6] 136124 148/11 155/l l 183/1 2 pro (1) 92/16 put 119] 29/22 55/24 68/22 75/15 78/20 85/1
187/23 190/17 probable (2) 14512 145/5 98/1411411119/17121/8 128/24 149/3
pointing (12) 139/17 141/11148/1 4 155/12 probably [61 25/ 11 50/17 77/ I0 154/19 155/22 163/12 165/12 165/18 165122 209/21
155125156/10157/4158/3158/10160/5 209/20 213/23 215111
171/4 171 /25 problem (1] 161/12 putting (11 84/13
points (SJ 90/9 94/24 100/21 182117 190/19 problems (l] 95/6 putzy (1) 84/12
police [18) 42/2 62/ 17 69/20 69/23 70/6 72/3 proceed (3] 2112 10217 162/4 nuzzles 121 26/8 26/8
72116 72/19 81/7 90/20 91/12 94/13 95/19 proceedings [2] 212 226/13
97/12 115/1163/25 180/15 205/11 process [12) 6/1121/11 21/11 27/7 41/14 Q
politely (1) 89/12 41/15 57115 57/16 57/17 113/23 165/10 Q-tip (1] 77/ 19
pond [3] 34/19140/11156/10 165/16 quadrant (1] 41/5
ponds (2) 180/22 180/23 processed [8) 36/2 151/7 151/22 164/6 quarries (2) 138/25 180/23
pool [21 50/10 190/24 200121 200/22 206/2 21717 quarry [81 138125 140/7 140/7 140/7 160/3
porch (l] 55/11 processing (8] 36/4 39/2 43/15 149/16 160/4 160/7 160/10
portion [Sf 70/22 155/8 160/2 185/5 191 /19 162110 165/2 1 166/2 1 201/24 quarter (6] 86/6 103/20 104/6 148/ 15 150/l
portions (3) 8/5 8/11 175/3 produce [I) 181/25 150/1
portraits [l) 105/10 produced [1) 211/12 question (18) 34/14 45/18 62/3 71/13 120/ 12
positioned [11 147/14 producing 11( 11/4 120/12131/16131/20151/5 156/19177/12
positive (5] 51/2172/16 143/6 214/15 217/6 product (1] 93/ l 199/ 16 202118 205/3 211/17 214/5 222/14
positively (3) 45/13 51/6 51/7 profile [6] 44/18 45/ 12 45/17 53/2 77122 222124
possible (3) 189/18 219/21 221/9 77/23 questionnaires [2) 26/18 30/25
possibly [2) 59/8 140/5 profiles [1 ) 44/25 questions (20] 7/3 54/17 5712 57/2 57/4 57/8
post (9] 104/14135/2 138/14 141/9 141/13 progresses (1] 91/6 57/16 63/6 70/21 70/25 87/23 93/1 6 93/17
141/15 142/2 150/1 8 163/11 progression [6) 9114 91/10 91/13 92110 94/11 119/24 122/4122111 196/2 208/5
poster (2] 114/1 114/7 92117 92/23 223/3
posters (SJ 48/20113/21 114/10 114/ 13 proof[4) 1217 1218 72115 87122 quickly [SI 38/9 42113 49/4 50/22 183/6
114/19 properly [SI 7/5 25/19 202/19 205/19 205/22 quite [4) 28/8 3212 9919 141/24
posts (3] 147/6 147/6 148/4 properties [SJ 37/5 139/18 180/18 180/23 lnuote 121 197/20 205/l
potentially (2] 206/13 206/15 183/11
pours (l] 85/12 property (72] 30/17 30/18 32/8 32/12 32/16
R
powerful (2) 91/17 94/4 32/17 32/23 32/25 33/4 33/7 33/20 35/3 R-a-b-a-s Ill 152/4
PowerPoint [11 91/2 35113 36/2437/638/1141/643/1947/ 10 Rabas (2] 152/4 152/4
PowerShot[2) 80/ 19 118/17 47/15 47/19 47/23 49/2 49/11 55/15 I06/16 race [3] 5/9 83/7 83/8
practic (11 11/11 113/15 134/8 136/161 36/23 137/6 139/25 rack (2) 38/2 187/5
practical [I ) 212/24 140/16 140/ 17 142/5 142/8 142112 143/3 Radandt [4] 140/7 160/4 160/7 210/12
practically [1) 11/11 143/14 143116 143/18 143/20 145/4 145/4 radar [2) 55/12 62/16
praises [I) 66/6 145/22 146/4 154/2 155/24 168121 169/8 rags (4] 85/13 85/15 194/23 195/7
precise [1) 207/23 177/8 179/19 179/23 179/24 180/1 180/2 rains Ill 211/10
precisely (1] 101/17 181/4 182/ 17 190/3 192/7 19218 197/20 raise (3] 4/17 23/3 123/5
precluded (l] 101/11 197/21 198/4 199/11205/6205/9 205/11 raised (21 87/24 88/19
predicted [1) 151/ 16 210/13 214/17 214/2 1218/16 ramped (l] 48/15
prefer fl) 224/17 proposed [2] 101/7 101/8 rape [4) 29/11 66/6 69/11 82110
prejudice [l l 5/9 proposition (21 99/14 99/16 raped (1) 64/23
preliminary [21 3/3 4/20 propped (1) 210/23 rapes [1] 65/20
prepare [2] 63/3 165/16 prosecution (6] 15/1 23/14 23/25 24/21 rare 11] 5713
prepared (3( 181/1 1 205/13 226/8 24/23 99/11 rat{l) 118/24
presence 161 132/21 135/J 135/10138/15 prosecutor [S] 1/1 4 1/16 1/18 24/7 86/17 rather 121 68/4 71/18
red (8) 141/3 141119 147/13 168/5 194/ 18 16517 167123 169/5 171/1 17112171/9
R 194/22 194/24 221119 171/10 171/14 171/14 171/22 171/24 171/25
rational (1) 20/1 redirect (4) 3/17 122125 223/2 223/5 17218 172119 172121173110174/5 174/12
RAV (45) 106123 I 17/ l 117/4 141/114114 red uced (1) 21912 1 174/18 176/3 176/18 176120 177/I 177/3
146/2 146/11 147113 147/16 147/25 148/9 reducing (1) 190/12 177/18 177/19 177120 183/9 183/10 183/15
148/16 149/1 149/4 149/19 150/2 150/13 refer Ill 137/3 183/16 183/22 183123 184/5 184/11 184/14
15219 152118 153/9 153/22 154/7 154/11 reference (1) 99/1 18411 6 184/22 184/22 185/3 185/24 186/13
158/4 198/24199/17199/19199/2 1200/13 referred (1) 138122 186115 186115 187/3 190/7 190110 190/13
200120 201/6 20 1/9 201/10 202/10 203121 refers [I) 1219 19112 191125 19212 192/4 19214 19215
204/8 204/ 17 204121210/10210/16 210/24 reflect [l ) 192122 192114 213/11 213/11 214/12
211/3 211/4 212/1 212118 reflected (1) 11/18 residences 115] 32/1133/636/12 37/2 37/4
ray (1) 76/6 refresh (2] 7120 223/17 40/1 136/23 137/12 138/2 139/12 139/24
rayed [l) 74/4 refreshes (1) 223/22 145/ 16 163/7 169/20 177/ 14
RAYMOND (2] 1/21 4/ 12 regarding (1) 135122 resist (31 6215 6216 6216
rays (1J 73124 regardless (l ] 6/19 resort (2) 193/16 220/6
RAZR (3) 80/18 11 0/13 110/19 regards (1) 22115 resources (4) 25/ 13 152116 154120 163/13
re (2) 39/8 195/22 regular (2) 2312 107125 respect (1) 20214
re-interview 11) 195122 reinterviewed (1) 55/18 respond (l) 100/18
reach (1) 141/13 Related (1) 204/5 responded (l( 10311 1
reached (1) 15417 relation (31 44/9 156/7 170124 response (6) 100/2 14218 20213 202112
reaching (2) 1912 77120 relationship (4) 107/ 13 109/17 19217 192/13 205/24 209/4
read [5] 8/5 8/ 11 8/13 80/13 87110 relationships (4) 181/22 182114 182114 responses 11) 222121
readily (1) 95/18 182/16 responsibilities [l) 162/7
reading (3) 86114 90/15 9516 relative [1) 21 1/2 responsibility [3) 20/12 24/19 5915
ready (4) 9/13 13/23 17/3 28/9 relatively [2) 203/9 20611 1 rest (SJ 43/6 5917 88/12 108/16 177/12
real (21 61/4 135/5 released [3) 3114 31/16 31/16 restnined (3) 65/8 65/2 1 71/9
realistically (1) 212117 religion (1) 5/10 result (3) 7213 77/18 194/8
reality (1) 21812 rely [21 7/20 817 results 13) 3917 39/8 9613
realize Ill 215/10 remain (2) 6/11 23/8 retention (2) 140/11 156/10
realized [11 105/2 remains (11) 35/ 19 42/1149119 74/12 76/17 retire (1) 96/11
really (13] 58/23 59/19 60/7 62/24 92119 11 7125 118/4 153/21 154/5 154/11 207/17 retrace (5) 4811 1112113 113/9 177/6 177/1 1
103/ 10 104/10 11011 11 0/2 144/3 197/15 remarks (2) 100/23 172113 retrieved (4] 112/24 176/ 15 176116 176/17
211122 212123 remember (28] 39/141/2450/10 5517 62113 retrieves Il l 67/ 1
rear (19) 51117 51122 74/16 143/6 14317 6419 64113 67122 6812 6813 6911 7211 88/24 return (6) 19/15 1912 120/953/ 11 110/6
146/10 146113 147/12 148/7 148115 150/1 108/5 108/8 11 4/14116/23 11 8/3 126/12 14519
150/1 150/15 168/22 184/24 185/1 187/2 129/12 130/22 13115 131/ l I 169/14 205/2 returning (1) 145/10
187/25 191/15 205/3 206/4 217/16 review (3) 100/6 100/10 10215
reason [Ill 1219 19/4 19/23 19125 22124 remind (3) 22/20 97125 224/25 reviewed (1) 7212 1
53/4 54/3 61/168/1687/16 204/17 Reminds [l ) 85123 revisit (1 1 217110
reasonable [25) 10/110/ 11 10/22 12119 remnants (1) 5217 ride [1) 92120
14/10 14/19 1515 15/23 17/15 17/24 18/9 removal (1) 152115 r iding Ill 78/10
18121 19/111 9/17 19/ 19 19/2220/620/10 remove (3) 15118 154/21 207/12 r ifle (7) 37/20 37122 37/24 37/25 67/2 72125
20/10 20/14 53/14 96/5 96/8 96/1 9 97/5 removed (17] 35/3 68/15 77/13 141/6 151116 73/6
reasons (21 29/18 62123 151120 15215 154/ 12 154/14 154/22 170/ 17 rifles 12) 37121 73/1
rebuttal (1) 99/6 188124 188125 205/15 205/16 205/ 18 217116 r ight (233)
recall(4J 108/18 114/9 177/102 17/13 render (3) 74/10 18213 182/4 r ight-hand (5) 140/ 14 141/12 147/18 157/25
receipt [3) 110/17 110/18 119/12 rendition (6) 183/20 184/4 185/1 185/23 174/24
receipts (2) 11 8/2 1 120/22 189/1 192112 rip [t J 186/5
receive (2) 116/15 177/21 rent (2) 104/7 104/10 rise (1) 4/16
received (12) 6115 6/22 7/8 44/16 122/8 report [3] 6/3 80/13 215/9 rivet(21 128/2 128/19
132120 135/5 161/8 161/14 194/6 196/18 reported (3) 213 29/15 226/6 r ivets 161 79/17 79/20 79123 128/5 128/14
196/19 Reporter (5) 214 22 1/6 221/9 226/5 226/19 161/17
recess [5] 5/18 53124 53/25 98/10 16212 reporting (1) 146/5 road [21) 83/1 83/2 83/3 114/21 134124
recognize (3) 129/10 153/12 173/17 reports [2) 6/1 217/8 134/25 134125 13717 137/8 137/9 137/24
recollect [11 220/3 represent[l) 89/13 141/111 43/2 1 14412 159123 160/1 171/7
recollection (2) 200/8 223/18 represented (1] 76/1 171/8 171/13 171116 171/ 17
reconcile (3) 19/18 96/24 97/3 repulsive [1I 66/9 roadmap [11 26/5
reconstr ucted (1) 5617 request (1) 144/9 roads Il l 114124
Reconvened 14) 4/1 54/ l 98/ 11 16213 requested (3) 135125 136/3 136/6 roadways (1) 115116
record [12) 4/20 97/22 98/15 100123 102/17 requests (1) 201123 role (6) 81/11 81/12 97/1 97/1 135/22 136/4
123/1 1133/5 133/ 12 173/6 19212221 1121 require (3) 11/15 68/3 82/13 rollercoaster [2) 92/20 96/ I
225/7 required [8) 7/13 12/12 19/5 25/17 25120 roofl8) 186/6 186/12 188/ 15 188123 190/9
recorded (1) 46/18 76/19 12011 145/17 191/3 207/10 217/ 15
recording (1) 38/17 requires (61 11/13 15/15 18/ 17 19/8 29122 room (4) 5/17 96/13 191/4 213120
records [11) 48/17 80122 112/17 113/9 6817 roommate 121 11 1/23 11 1/23
178/1 4178/16 178/18 178/20 179/5 179/7 Rescue (2) 152121 153/16 rooms [2) 186/ 17 186/24
21 4/16 rescuing (1) 82/9 row (5) 79/5 121/23 121/25 125/14 156/18
recover (3) 41/18 4211 43/6 reserve (1) 100/5 rows Il l 163/5
recovered (18) 38/5 38/6 38/21 39/23 41/16 resided (4) 137/14 137120 139/ 13 139/21 RPR (2) 213 226/19
41/2 1 45/7 45/8 72124 73/8 73/10 75/18 residence (80) 30/17 37122 39/24 40/25 rule Il l 98120
76/12 78/13 79123 80/16 164/5 224/10 46/24 46125 47/18 126121 137/13 137/16 rules Il l 99/22
recovery (2) 42/15 16211 1 137/17 137117 137/19 138/9 138/18138/19 r uling (3) 100/5 101/2 101/6
recreational (1) 124/22 139/20 139/21 143/7 143/8 143113 164/11 run (2] 171/16 208/14
154/2418 1113 181 /1718 1/18 181/19181/19 seize Ill 145/4
R J81/21 181/22 18215 182/618218 182110 seized 17) 37/22 145/12 151/25 176/ 19
running (I] 137/8 186/5 191/22 196/15 201 /9 176/24 182115 188/l l
rural [l) 30/ 10 scenes [I) 18214 seizing [I) 149/16
Rvan f21 115/11 116/10 schedule (l] 109/3 seizure[l] 162111
s schedules (1) 119/ 18
Schmitz 13] 46/25 177/18 178/11
selected [11 617
selection [2} 87/21 88/18
safeguards [I] 61/13 school (7] 55/9 82122 82/23 90113 91/11 95/4 self[l] 57/23
Safety (1) 113/25 104/14 self-preservation (1 ) 57/23
said [46) 45/5 56/4 70111 71/8 7211 7311 science (2] 9017 9019 sells (I] 29/21
75/15 77/4 77/14 78/19 80/20 80125 89/11 sciences [IJ 24/13 semen (1 f 52/21
93/5 93/6 94/10 94/1 1 104/9 I 05/22 110/2 scientific (11 95124 semester (I ) 104/24
lll/16111/2111 6/12117/13136/ l l40/24 scientists (2) 151/10 152/14 semi (2) 37/23 67/2
143/17144/81451211 58/15 174/ 13175/1 2 scope (2) 25/15 50/23 semi-automatic [21 37/23 67/2
175/17 179/25 19517 195/13 195/14 203/J Scott (1) 7517 sense (11) 19123 34/25 57/5 57/6 57/24 61/23
211/25 213/9 22213 222/7 222/10 222/19 screaming (3) 64/6 64/6 64117 63/18 96/17 96118 103/6 156120
222/20 226/13 screen (12) 32115 55/12 61/17 62116 136125 sent 12) 140/22 162/24
sale(l3] 3812041/847/571/4167/18 178/3 142/22155/ 11 157/24 164/23 173/ l 174/23 separate {4] 27/9 72/23 18017 207/3
178/4 178/9 183/1 8 183/24184/17186/1 190/9 separated [2] 207/4 20717
190/16 screens [6) 22/14 25/23 32/2 32/5 54/2 13 7/2 serious [4] 57/20 58/1 63/11 63/11
saliva (2] 90/6 120/9 sealed (1] 152110 serve (1 J 617
salvage [51) 3017 30/12 30/18 3218 3219 search [65] 20/15 20/16 25/9 33120 35/9 service [4) 21/5 141122 15212 I 52/3
33/20 47/9 106/18 116/ll 134/8 134/19 35/10 35110 35113 35/14 36/18 37/1 37/11 session [I) 7/24
134/22134/23 134/23 135/7 136/22 137/6 39/20 40/14 42/4 49/1 49/10 70/11 71112 set (151 29/9 29/1131/883110 84/8 106/4
137/25 138/4 138/23 139/l l39/4 139/10 71115 71120 7215 81/17 113/19l1 5/15 116/4 121/15 121/17 121/21 135/1 138/14 176/ 17
140/4 140/10 140/15 141/16 141/18 143/3 116113 144/23 144/25 145/ 1 145/3 145/10 176/19177/2 216/5
143/9 143/ 16 143/25 144/4 152/25 15519 145/14 152/17 152/21 152/22 15317 153/16 sets (13] 176/14 176123 176/25 215/3 2 I 5/2 I
156/9 157/3 157/23 158/ 12 159/19 160/1 157/12 162/9162113 162/15 162/16162/18 215/23 216/2 216/7 216/14 223/8 223/9
160/3 160/5 160/6 160/8 160/9 160/ 11 163/4 162/20 162125 163/2 163/ 12 163/ 12 163/14 223/12 223/13
171117 180118 198114 163115 164/4 16516 165/14 165123 166/19 sev (1] 180/3
salvaged [4) 135/8 140/9 143/11 169/1 8 169/7 169/8 169/25 179/ 18 180/2 J80/8 seven (7] 22/l 43/14 84/17 108120 143/ 12
same [291 22/7 24/21 24/21 31/23 52/19 210/2 21017 210/8 205/10 219/9
52/22 52123 70/9 82125 87/7 88/9 89/11 90/5 searched (131 36/13 36/15 37/1 8 49/5 49/12 seven-day fl ] 205/10
99125 11114 127/23 130/l 130/6 130/12 11 5/16153/18 153/22 16717179/20 179/22 seven-ish (l ] 84/ I7
131/16146/ 15 147/25 17215 178/11 182/5 180/1 180/4 several (7) 25/8 9111138/l 158/24 15911
183/20 187/14 213/9 224/3 searcher [I) 208/4 180/1 4 18011 5
sample [3] 45/14 120/5 120/9 searchers (5) 33/18 37/14 145/24 146/3 sex 13) 5/10 6517 65/12
samples (1) 120/1 166/25 sexual [181 1617 16/1617/717/10 17/13
Samurai (1) 191/12 searches (101 33113 48/15 49/3 115/3 115/13 17117 17/21 18/2 18/4 18/11 18/14 18/15
sanctity [11 6/10 160115 163/10 180/6 180/17189/13 18/20 18/23 27/113114 53/17 65/23
sandwich (4] 158/24 206/ l 209/2 209/8 searching [10) 34/1148/2549/2 116/9 Sh [t) 197/25
sandwiched (1) 209/18 116/1 1 163/16 165/9 165/ll 165/ 14 210/11 shackled fl] 65/4
sandwiches (lj 159/8 seat 1151 67/22 67/24 6817 76/13 76118 76/20 sha II 11} 205/25
satisfied [6] 12/1912/25 15123 16/418/21 76/21 84/2 186/5172/61 85/12 185/ 16 shape [l[ 215/6
18/25 185/20 191/21 191/2 1 share [1) 66/1
satisfies 17] 10/1 10/22 14/915/5 17/1 5 18/9 seated (4) 25/4 102116 123/10133/J1 she (132) 29/3 29/3 29/4 29/4 29/17 29/18
19/10 seats fl] 52/3 29119 29119 30/ I 38/17 38/18 44/25 46/23
satisfy (1) 19116 second [SJ 6/21 40/21 56/9 92/8 103/2 196/6 47/3 47/3 47/4 47/5 4717 47/16 47/16 47/19
Saturday (11] 33/17 36/12 41/25 115/9 196/8 204/8 47/25 48/ l 71/14 72/2 72/20 72124 73/19
116/l 11 6121 \16/23 142/11 157/ 15 165/12 section 161 8/1913/4 14/23 16/9 18/3 183/2 1 76/6 77/22 79/7 79/ 11 81/24 81/25 83/2 1
198/2 secure (1) 7/24 85/2 1 103/2103/4 103/5 103/5 103/6 103/8
save [11 82/2 secured [SI 146120 154/13 154/ 15 201/5 103/8 103/10 103/20 103/22 103/22 104/6
saw 1131 56/3 56/4 5615 67/22 75110 111/24 201 16 104/7 104/8 104/10 104/13 104/15 104/15
140/21 146/16 157/2 196/7 201/5 202/5 securing LZJ 144/22 199/19 104123 104/24 105/1 105/1 105/2 105/2
216/12 see (69] 6/13 22/18 33/6 35/4 3717 41/8 105/3 105/3 105/4 105/6 105/10 105/12
say (271 21/5 34/6 42/22 59/21 75/9 79/21 43/10 44/7 44/7 44/ 12 50/2 58/25 5914 59/12 105/13 105/13 105115 106/4 106/7 106/9
89/194/12 96/1610117 104/3 109/21 12/18 62/20 68/8 71/3 71/16 73/21 74/2 74/17 106/9106/15106/17106/17107/9 108/15
128/6 128/7 175/13 197/9 205125 206/ll 76125 77/2178/1280/15 85/22 86/15 94/8 108/21 108/23 109/8 109/9 109/1 7 109/24
207/7 207/9 211 /11213/22219/12 219/18 112/1 128/11129/18 13711140/4 140/5 109/25 110/1 110113 110/19 11 1/12 I 11/22
221/3 225/2 140/9 141/24143/9147/1 14711147/12 11 2/14 112/17 112/20 112/21 114/2 1 114/22
saying [8) 46/20 56/8 69125 70/8 82/5 110/4 147/14 147/17 147/20 148/8150/21153/2 l15/14 115/17 116/ 12 117/8 118/23 119/4
209/12 22512 162/20 162125 163/5 163/8 163/23 164112 119/12 121116 121/16 121/17 121/1 9 121121
says (361 47/13 47/ 19 55/22 61/17 63/25 166/5 16617168/13 174/22 176/5 184/18 1221191 23/20 123/22 124/ 15 124/24 125/2
65/17 66/4 6617 66/16 66/17 67/3 70/11 187/ 15 188/16 190/14 190/24 192/6 19917 125/9 125/1 1 125/ 13 125/ 14 126/2 126/7
70/19 71/1 71110 74/13 74/17 76/13 76/22 201/13 204/21 206/J7 207/16 225/4 126114126115 130/I9130/21131/5131/22
77/17 78/5 78/ 15 78/23 80/3 80/ 10 84/9 85/8 seeing (2) 128/20 214/15 13 1122 131123 131/24 132/117717 178/8
85/23 91/5 92/21 92/2 19512095/22 110/2 1 seem Ill 92114 she'd [IJ 46/ JO
128/20 129/9 seems [2) 89/1 101/ 10 she'll [3) 45/1 75125 75/25
scale [l) 4917 181 / 17 seen (18) 33/22 55/2 62/18 9417 1I1 /24 she's [4] 48/2 74/24 103/3 121/17
scene [391 36/2 41/14 41/15 43/13 43/15 112/14 11 5/14 120/ 15 127/8 128/19130/5 sheds [1] 33/11
43/25 46/10 81/9 136/1 4 144/14 146/21 131/17 152/7 196/14 199/1721617 216/12 shelf(2] 188/10 188/1 1
14915 149/6 149/15 15 1/7 151/ 11 151/14 216/14 shell [3) 72123 73/9 73/l l
15 1/ 17 151/20 151/22 152/14 152/23 154/20 sees (6] 55/22 55/23 65/3 65/4 75/13 75/13 Shepherd (1] 4216
S 179121 l 8219 1821 I 0 l 90/2 69/21 731774/2 1 75/6 76/25 79/25 83/ 11
...,__ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __ ___, single (2) 29/ 1 206123 83/22 84/20 84/25 85/ 1 85/ 11 85/ 12 85/ 17
sheriff (lO] 134/ 12 135/4 135/ 16135/25 sir 171 132125 134/9155/3 204/6 215/22 85/ 18 8618 86116 87/8 87/ 13 9214 92124
13614 136/6 144/9144/9 198/21 198122 215/24 217/21 100/12 106/7 107/4117/23 120/5 123/25
Sheritrs (7) 25/3 112/4 135/ 19 135/20 136/2 sister [22) 29/4 33/3 79/6 79/ 11 107/16 125/ 18 126/17 126/22 130/24 139/6 140/10
136/4 188/2 123/20 124/4 124/19 125/ 12 125/ 17 125/25 141/ 15 141/ 16 142/ 17145/22 145/22 145/23
Sherry (4] 3 1/2044/ 13 72113 77122 12616 126118127/ 16 127/24 129/2 130/ 14 14713 149/5 149/5 151/1 2 160120 163/24
shift (1) 160/ 14 130116 130123 rnn 131/ 18 131/21 164/6 166/ 18 173/ 10 173/11 173/ 13 174/21
shifting (I] 58/ 17 sister's (6) 32/ 17 38/ 12 38113 38114 125/2 175/1 175/3 175/191 78/ 13 180/23 186/23
ship 111 110124 126/24 186123 186/25 194/7 I 94/7 194/12 194/15
shoe [II 211/14 sisters (5) 79/ 12 107/4107/ 14 107/ 19 123/25 194/20 205/ 12 206/ 16 207/8 207/ 14 208/3
shoes [21 174/ 11211/15 sit [1) 2 1/9 220/4 221/ 14 22 1/ 19
shoot (1) 73/3 site [2) 7/ 1 42125 somebody [16) 27/ 19 28/5 58/ 1 6011 0 60/ 11
shoots (lJ 67/3 sitting 13) 23/ 15 63/4 79/5 61/17 8115 96123 106/3 199/3 199/6 199/13
shop (7) 124/7124/ 13 138/8 141/ 18141/22 situation (1) 97/2 207/8 207/11 209/12 209/16
205113 205/ 14 six [6) 22/ 1 39/3 51/20 79/20 79/23 170/24 somebody's (1) 110/7
shopping (5) 107/ 17 124/5 124/ 11 125/ 17 Sixty (2) 183/8 184/20 someone 13) 204/ 18 209/5 21216
127/ 15 Sixty-eight [1) 184120 someplace [lJ 104/8
short [1) 36/9 Sixty-three Ill 183/8 something [20] 12/ 10 28/ 19 29/20 31/8
shorthand (1) 226110 s ize (3) 25/16 421 16 50/23 39/17 59/14 72116 85/10 9212 98/ 14 110/ 13
shortly 16) 84/3144/15144/16 144/20 skeleton [2) 45/ 1845/19 112/23 119/2 161/9 161/ 11 174/6 21214
146116 197125 sketch (1) 18212 2 15/16 218/ 13 222112
shot 171 70/12 71114 7212 72117 72120 72124 sketches (1) 181/25 sometime 16) 38/20 46/17 46/2146125 108/3
73/15 skin [l) 52121 164/2
should [231 5/3 515 611 6/3 7/6 8/6 1216 s kip [41 87/13 87/ 18 88/ l 142/3 sometimes (61 64/3 79/12 87/1 1 93/ I 11 9/ 15
12116 1212416/3 18/23 19/20 57/23 64110 skipped (1) 88/14 162116
66/ 14 66114 67/ 12 67/12 77/25 161/8 161/ 14 skipping [1] 172/11 somewhat (2) 26/ 19 158124
192122 201/5 skull [l] 73/20 somewhere (3) 140/23 148/6 200/5
shouldn't 131 89/7 96/25 101/7 slash (1) 167123 son (J j 112/ 16
show (67) 20/20 26/4 28/7 34/23 36/ 11 38/11 sleep [2] 6 1/7 124/5 sons (3) 32119 32/ 19 113/4
4019 41/3 41/20 46/ 13 48/7 5216 53/ 12 56/23 slept [l ) 213/ 15 sop [1) 85/ 13
57125 6 1118 62125 71/24 74/2 1 7611677/ 11 sliding (2) 165/2 186120 sorry (15) 10717 117/3 13214141/20151/6
81/ 19 81/21 86/119511596123 11 0/22 small [3] 35/2 42116 85/ 10 168/ 17 181/ 1 185/8 185/ 11 189/25 199/ 15
118/13 119/5 121/3 121/10 125/6 127/ 18 smaller [2] 137/2 158/3 203/18 208/1 211/23 221/8
128/ 11 129/6 129/20 130/3 137/4 139/7 smile [1) 103/9 sort (2) 86/ 16 209/ 12
141/9 14617 147/23 148/2 148/ 1 l 155/20 snapped (1) 12 1/20 sound [2) 221/ 10 22211
15615 158/17 159/ 12 165/3 170/3 171/7 snarling (l] 166116 sounds 13) 221/1 1 22212 224/23
17213 172125 173/ 15 174/2 174123 176/11 sneakers (2] 174/11 174/ 13 source [2) 612 92/4
178/ 1 182111 182/ 19183/13 186/6186/ 10 snow (2) 7 1/ 16 7 1/ 17 south (31) 137/8 137/9 137/ 10 138/12
187/22 189/24 218/2 223/14 snowmobile [11 191/13 138/ 17 138/21 140/6142/ 16143/7 152124
showed [7] 81/25 109/24 159/ 11 199/20 so (136] 11/7 12125 16/4 18/24 19/20 20/20 15318 153/8 154/2 155/17 156/2 156/9 157/6
200117 20619 218/ 18 2 1/8 2216 22110 22118 23/8 24/14 25123 158/ 11 159125 16012 160/4 169/ 19 184/5
showing (19) 104/2 106/24 121113 140/ 1 25/25 27/5 27/22 27/24 29/25 31/ 15 33/5 184/ 12 184/24 185/2 185/6 187/3 19 117
143/23 15011 1 150/17 153/10 155/5 157/19 34/12 36/22 36/25 38113 40/1 144/8 44/10 191116 2 10/13
157/22 159/20 163/ 18 165/24 167/ 14 169/2 45/9 45/16 45/22 45/25 46117 47/ 15 50115 southeast (5) 140/3 155/8 157/2 I 57123
173/ 10 178/ 14190/ 13 50116 5012 1 53/1855/ 12 58/3 60/ 13 60121 19 1/24
shown 171 12110 7217 135/ 12 173/ 1 189/20 6 1/6 63/2 67/ 13 71/ 15 74/6 75/ 12 75/ 14 8011 southwest 13) 143/2 158/2 169/4
192123211/4 81/ 11 8211983/884/ 11 87/ 1289/ 1 95/2 space 131 173/10 173/11 173/12
shows (91 25/23 95/4 107/22 130/25 13112 99/2 1100115 100/23 101/ 1 10 1/4104/9 span [1) 203/6
13118149/5170/25185/ ll 104/9104/ 10105/3107/22 108/ 10 110/7 spare (1) 191/5
shred [l] 214/20 111/17 11213 11 2122 112122 112123 115/ 15 spatter 131 5 1/ 13 74/1 8 80/8
shy [3) 90/ 15 90/ 18 93/13 11 611 1 11 6112 117/11 126/15 129/ 18 135/ 10 spatters Ill 51/14
sibling 111 124/ 17 136/6 137/3 139/ 1 139/5140/9 141/8 14213 speak (71 5123 5125 10916 13412 135/ 10
siblings (1) 108/ 16 142113 143/4 146/19 148/10 151/16 154/ 10 209/2 2 14/2
side [25) 71132123215 67/5 74/ 12 76/ 11 154/2 1 158125 160/ 18 163/2 165/ 18 166/5 speaking 11) 194/2 1
84123 85/ 186117 8813 143/2147/9147/ 11 167/ 15 168/13 170/ 12 171/6 178/23 181/ 17 special (7] 1/ 14 1/ 16 1/ 18 4/9 23123 133/ 19
148/l 14817 148/ 13 155/18 156/9 158/ 10 18717 19011 195/18 199/3 199/ 13 201/1 164/ 1
159/21 159/24160/2 170/25 171/21184/ 18 201/11202120203/8205/7205/ 15206/7 specialist [lJ 31119
sidebar 121 133/3 173/4 207/8 207/12 208/23 209/2 209/10 210/22 specific (71 8/5 8/12 125/22 160/14 200/8
sides (2) 4/21 88/ 1 21 1/ 1 2 11/ 17 212121 216/8 216/ 13 216/ 15 201123 208/4
sign [41 143/25 144/3 178/5 207/17 2 18/15 218/25 22219 223/4 224/5 224/7 s pecifically (4) 172122 173/24 177/22 179/ 19
signed 111 145/ 1 224/8 speculation [lJ 2017
significance (2) 37/24 151/1 socially [3) 90/16 90/18 95/12 spell (3) 102117 123/11 133/ 12
signs Ill 198/11 soda [5) 50/125 1/1813112 11 31/22 131/25 spend Ill 107118
silver [21 223/25 224/2 sodas (11 13 1123 spent (21 107/ 16131/7
similar [SJ 47/2 91/2 1 127112 127/24 130/12 sold (1) 79/ 10 s pilled [1] 85/ 11
138125 146/15 161/9 solely [l) 6/ 15 spine (1) 75/25
similarities (1) 8717 some (115) 4/ 19 2211 1 22/2424/ 14 26/7 splashed 11) 78/17
Simley (1) 76/4 26/2 1 27/327/4 31/13112 31 /9 33113 33/14 spoke [21 193/ 10 193/12
simple 121 89/1 92113 35/ 16 39/ 12 43/2144/244/14 45/8 4519 spoken Ill 16219
simply (81 9212 93/4 161/2 161/6 207/2 49/25 51124 5512 55118 5611 5613 56116 5818 sports [ l] 125/ 1
209112 2 16116 222/7 5915 6 114 6114 61118 62118 62/22 62124 6318 spot (1) 215/ 12
since [91 22/7 26/6 112/25 128/ 19 161/9 63/10 63/11 64/14 64/15 65/10 65/12 68/16 Spots Ill 175/5
s Steven [1471 24/20 26/19 28/10 30/15 30/20
30/213012231/131/15 31119 32/13 33/2
superior 121 59/ 15 197/ 15
supervisor [lJ 134/ 11
spring (1) 120/7 36/ 15 37/3 37/2138/3 38/9 39/24 39/25 40/6 supper (1) 83113
squashed fl ] 206/24 40/15 40/16 40/24 4117 41/IO 46/7 46/12 support (2] 7017 99/13
SS 11 ) 226/1 46/23 46/24 47/9 47/14 47/23 49/16 49/21 supposed (1) 93/23
stabbed (1) 56/2 49/21 4912450/ I 51119 51/21 51/23 5215 sure (211 25118 75/8 98/8 98121 99/21
stabs [II 66/19 52/17 52123 53/5 5317 62/ 19 64/20 6616 112/18 113/7 115116 117/11 129/7 133/4
Stachowski 12] 69/6 80/23 66/13 66/18 66119 68/15 69/7 71 /6 71/11 137/1146122 173/5 19912 1200/3 215/16
stacked [l) 149/4 71/19 75111 75/ 14 77123 77/23 80124 84/3 2 17/8 220/ 12 220/25 225/ 1
stage fl) 101/11 84/4 84/18 84/ 18 8517 85111 85116 85/20 surprise (11 203/1
stages fl) 58/18 85/23 85/24 88/25 89/4 89/ 18 89/2 1 89/23 surprised (I I 70/2
staging Ill 140/22 9019 9115 106/13 113/14 122120 137/14 surrounding 131 139/23 179/23 183/17
Stahlke [2] 51112 80/7 137/ 16138/ ll 138/19 139/13 139/19163/16 survey Ill 136/15
stain (2) 78/ 10 78/l 1 163/20164/10 164/11 166/1166/20167/3 suspect (5] 55!13 61 /1 62/5 62/15 70/5
staining (1) l 75/2 167/19168/ 12 168121 169/6 170/25 171 / 14 suspects (4) 57/12 57/18 58/4 5816
stains [20) 50/ 10 74119 74/19 174/22 174/24 175/18176/19177/2177/18 183/9 183/16 SUV [18) 33/23 33/25 39/1 39/4 39/6 39/15
175/3 175/5 175/8 175/12 175/ 13 17617 183/23 184/1 7 184/19 184/22 185/2 18512 40/19 49/ 17 50/9 50111 52/1 67!9 74/ 16
194/3 194/1194/15 194117 194/ 19 194/22 185/3 185/20 185/21 18612 186/3 186/13 74/25 76/22 76/24 89/24 162/11
194/24 195/l 221 / 14 187/3 187/4 187/14 187/20 187/24 188/6 Suzukj [I) 191112
stand (4] 101/3 123/4 133/7 208/25 188/15 188/23 190/7 190/14 190/20 190/22 swab (1] 77/20
standard 121 45/ 14 5117 191 /l 191/4 191/6 191/9 191/11 191/16 swabs [1) 77/19
standing 141 55/22 143/5 149/13 200/9 19217 19219 192/ 10 192112 194/8 195/8 swear fl] 4/15
stands [I] 225/l 0 195/10 213/11 215/5 216/5 224111 sweat [4] 52/25 77/23 77/24 9016
start (91 53/4 56/23 58113 62/25 83/5 87/ 18 Steven's (81 50!5 67/17 69/6 79/24 84/24 sweatshirt 121 84/13 85/25
126/8 18118 224/18 90/11 168/25 216/ 11 sweaty [1] 64/22
started (8) 5618 62/13 104/24105/3 111/18 sticker [SJ 117/2 117/4 Jl7/7 127/4 127/5 sweep (4) 162117 162/19 165/23 210/2
112110 163/ 15211/10 still 1131 26/24 43/18 44/24 45/8 62/14 83/2 1 sweeps (21 162/24 210/7
starting {3] 36/13 14 1/ 12 204/14 121/5149/3160/24176/5192/16204/19 swept (1) 167/6
startling [l] 38/25 208125 switching fl] 130/22
starts (3] 40/ 19 55117 91/4 stipulate (I] 178/13 sworn 15) 4/18 6/17 102/15 123/9 133/10
state 165) 1/1 113 1114 1/ 16 1118 4/3 4/5 8124 stipulated [3) 6/24 22/6 179/ll sympathy (1] 20/8
9125 10/2112/1213/10 14/9 15/4 16/ 14 stipu lation (1) 179/12 svstem 11 1 22121
17/14 18/8 19114 27/12 31/1143/12 44/20 stoke [I) 55/25
53/12 53!13 54/18 70/l 7 70/17 89/16 91/7 stone [2] 185/519 1/ 17
T
91/22 92116 9414 95/l 97/4 98/17 99/4 99/14 stood [l] 28/9 tab (1) 220/11
99115 99/19 10216 102/11 102116 123/3 stop 18) 5/18 25/24 4717 47/8 67/25 96/20 table 111 23/16
123/10 133/6 133/ 11 143/22 14412 149/14 108/2 109/8 Tadych 191 75/7 83/ 17 83/ 17 137/18 167/18
152111154/15 154/17158/16158119 170/12 stopped [2] 109/25 116/ 17 173/9 19214 214/8 224/1
170/13 17 1/1 8 18017 181112 197/2 197/6 stops [5) 46/22 47/3 47/3 113/4 113/6 Tadych's [3] 176/18 177/ 1215/25
206/2 1 220/1 8226/J 226/5 storage (21 173/ 10 173/12 Tag (3) 223/21 223/24 224/2
State's [5) 96/17 96/24 100/12 100/18 store (2] 79/10 124/13 tallgatefl J 51/17
161/12 stored (1] 155/23 take (58) 7/14 l l/9 22/123/529/10 29123
stated [1] 167/22 stories (1] 91/19 3214 38119 40/ 10 43/8 49125 53/3 53/9 5418
statement (35) 20118 21123 22110 23/7 23/ll story [10) 26/25 29/8 5112 86113 87/3 87/4 54/10 66/22 68/ 1 68/ l 70/13 70/13 70120
27/6 53/23 54/13 56/7 61 / 161 /2062/13 87/ 10 91 /1 8 93/6 97/17 73/6 73/24 77/19 79/ 19 87/14 92/12 94/5
62120 63/16 63/23 67/6 70/23 86/ 13 91/3 straightf3] 186/14186/14212/18 9416 9416 94/9 94/10 97/24 98/18 99/3 106/5
91/13 92113 92/ 15 92/15 9212198/2599/24 street (1) 83/1 118/10 121116 124/24 127/ 14 128/10 132/23
100/16 100/22140/19 172113 179/ l 189/ 14 struggled (1] 52111 135/23136/4 148/10 15017 160/17 160/20
193/6 195120 198/12 student [1) 90/13 167/19 183/12 193/15 202/16 203/10 21111
statements (3913/4 7/1512/41512020/18 studio (3) 105/6 105/8 109/24 215/ 18 215118 2 1719 223/2 1
20/23 23/10 26/2 27/4 6219 63/9 64110 68/25 stuff [21 45/25 221/19 taken (20] 39/147/24 105/15 106/1 106/4
6919 70116 7214 77/18 78/4 81 /3 91/l 91/10 Sturm (6) 33/19 116/3 116/6 11617 116/8 106/17 150/15 151/3 170/16 170/21 173/19
91/11 9211921392/11 92/l l 93/11 94/3 116/25 173/21 174/12182/20187/9 203/20 216/10
94/25 95/23 96/2 97/ 11 97113 99110 101/8 Sturms [21 48/24 199/10 223/25 224/3 226/9
101/18101/20175/6 193/8 submission [1) 44/19 takes 18] 33/16 34/8 47/3 48/1 83/3 84/1
statewide (1) 133/24 submit Ill 18/20 85/11 209/16
station 13) 91112170/5 181/14 subsequently Ill 135/6 taking [11) 7/16 47/6 54/15 54115 67/2 1
status (1] 205/8 substance 121 195/8 195/12 84/ 11 10113 105/11 105/12 166/4 176/4
stay (2) 220/11 220115 substantial [I] 1114 talk [25] 23113 27/ 15 42/19 47/15 50/6 60125
stayed (3) 114/18 220/8 220/8 substantially [I) 95/ 12 62/8 62/8 64/4 64/14 65/6 65/16 74/18 75/1 1
staying [l) 220/1 4 such (8] 5/9 20/2 20/11 9919 133/23 152/1 78/8 78111 83/5 83125 87/21 156/24 167/15
steel {4] 148/1 8149/8150/5 191/20 170/1 194/20 188/3 212121 21 5/19 225/2
steering Ill 16711 Suffice (lJ 34/6 talked (20) 49/ 15 5l/3 61 /2 68113 75/ 19
stenographic (1] 226/9 suggest [3] 92/17160115 221124 92/ 19 11 1/23 126/1 141/8 14212 153119
step [3) 123/2 133/I 224/16 suggestible [3] 90/16 90/ 19 96/4 158/6 165/23 168/5 182124 189/ 17 191(17
stepfather [1) 75/7 suggesting 11) 202120 192/3 220/4 221118
steps (5] 48/11 112114 113/9 177/6 188/l suggestion (3) 54/11 61/2 95/1 4 talking [31] 26/l 53/4 55/3 55/11 58/21 82/5
sternly (1) 95/21 suggestions [4} 54/1 4 62/5 6216 62/7 106/10 106/10 114/1612119 128/12 128115
Ste\'e (24) 55/3 55/22 56/1 5612 62119 66/16 suggests {l] 92/5 129/19138/ 16 139115147113 147/19 148/12
66120 67/3 72/4 77/l 77/12 77/17 78/1 82/6 Suma Il l 104116 153/4 159/20 183/13 200/14 20812 212/22
84/8 84/10 139/11 143/8 184/16 194/14 summers [2) 129/ 14 130/ 14 214/2 214/7 220/23 221/13 221/17 222113
194/14 213/25 214/7 21 4/2 1 Sunday 1111 37/ 16 37/2249/4107/21 107/24 222/16
Ste\'e's (5] 64/5 73/2 78/18 78/22 191/24 10812 108/5 108/9 130/23 157/15 167/7 talks (3) 47/1 1 83/25 86/3
T 109;23 11015 11019 1w211 111221 1218 165115 114122 11511111614 1161511611
- -- ----------1 112124 113/5113/ 19114/ 1115/5115/9 176/ 161 7819181123 182124 194/ 18203/16
tampered (1) 146123 115/ 11 11 811 11812 1 119/3 120/16 121/15 203/ 18 203/ 19 206125 206125 207/ 1 207/2
tank (11 164/ 12 122117 122117 123/ 18 12312 1 124/ 1 124/ 10 207/3 207/4 207/6 209/8 209/9 213/5 213/ 18
tanks (2) 205/ 15 205/21 124/13 124/17 124/23 125/1 125/ 12 125/2 1 213/23 215/19 217/3 218/18 218/22 220/ 15
ta pe (21 38/16 163/25 126/18 127113 12912 129/ 11 129/13 130/24 t heme 151 86/17 86/18 87/6 91/20 93/6
taped (11 91/ 10 131/7 13111813 1121 134/ 15 14219146/6 t hemselves 161 27/ 194212 6 115 170/7170/ 18
Target (1) 119/ 12 153/22 156/6156/17 156121 157/ 14159/6 175/21
task (t l 21/ 15 161/21163/1 167/1 1167/ 19169/11177/6 then [741 9/6 13/ 1616/203912047/64813
tea m (111 23/14 24/21 125/2 125/9 163/12 178/ 19 180/25 198/ 12 204/212 10/8215/4 49/149/250113 53/1155/2056/25 58/15
163/14 163/15 165/ 12 165/13 165/18 165/22 Teresa's (47) 39/6 40/22 48/ l I 50/11 51/5 5916 60120 66/ 13 81/ 11 86/5 86/19 88/ 13
tea med (I I 169/24 56/465121681176812369/474/774/ 15 91/1296/1999/ 1199123103/15103/15
teams [10) 162124 16313 165/9 165/ 14 74123 76/6 76/10 77/ 13 77/ 16 78/ 19 79/5 103/ 16 10511 10512 10612 106/5 107/ 11
169/25 180/2 180/2 1 209/25210/52 10/6 79/779/1480/ 10 104/13 105/21109/3 108/19111/18111/22 11 2/3 115/811 7/13
tear [l] 209/8 111/11 11 1115 11219 112117 114/7 115/ 12 121/24 121/25 130/2 130/22 138/2 1 139/22
teased 11) 127/1 11 6/ 18117/ 1 118/6118120119/22119/25 141123147/8149/11152110153/8 154/22
tech (1) 2 1/4 12211 124/4 126120 135/ 13 141/1 156/8 157/8 158/2 159/6 159123 16217 164/ 11
technique (7) 56/ 17 56120 59114 6012 6013 156113 158/4 158/ 13 205125 170/20 17 1/2 171117 184/18 184/24 185/4
61110 6 1/ 11 term (4) 19/22 23/23 93/9 200/22 188/1 2 189/9 195/2 195/4 195/20 196/ 19
techniques (4) 58/3 58/8 58/8 59/12 terrible (11 39/17 200/2 210/11 211/1 2 12/2 1 2 16/13 222113
tedious 111 225/ 1 tes (1) 206/19 theory (1 1 56/21
teeth[l] 76111 test[l] 7317 there(ISIJ 5/31 1/1926/931/93512 1 3612
telephone (1) 100/ 15 testi (1) 206/14 41/24 43/24 45/17 46/ 1146/2047/ 16 47/ 16
television (1) 130/25 testified (19) 102/ 15 123/9 133/10 197/ 19 54/20 54/2155/758/3 62/1 1 64/ 1268/5
tell (112) 20/19 26/3 26/24 27/5 27/22 36/5 198/19 199/8 200/19 202112 204/25 205/23 69/13 71/22 72/22 73/22 74/10 75/15 80/17
39/9 39/9 43/9 44125 45/ 1 53/ 11 56/24 57/6 206/21207/19209125 212124 213/2 2 16/5 8119 81125 8211 84/ 1687/5 87/6 87/7 87/8
58/ 12 66/ 11 67/ 1468/ 11 6811869/ 16 69/17 2 17/ 13 217/18 2 18121 90/5 91125 9216 9219 95/ 1 951297/ 15 99/ 1
73/ 10 73/ 16 74/ 175/2375125 80/8 85124 testifies (1) 101/17 101/21 102/ 1 103/ 12 103122 104/ 11 108/16
89/12 94/1 10212 1 103/18 103/25 105/19 testify (51 2211175/875/25 95/10 95/10 112/5 12 1/5 121/8 129/15 134/25 135/l
106/25 107/4 108/8 11 0/ 12 110/15 11 1/ 12 testifying (l] 206/4 135/3 135/9 135/10 135/15 135/ 15 135/17
114/5 11 5/8 116/6 118/ 14 119/6 119/ 10 testimony (23) 6/ 17 7/8 8/3 8/5 817 8/8 2212 135/21 13617 137/ 15 137123 140/ 11 140/ 11
121/ 14 123/18 125/7 126/5 127/5 129/8 2214 34/ 136/7 50/ 19 54/9 56/13 59/21 6016 140/12 140122 141/2 14 1/3 141/6 141/ 14
129/24 133/ 17 134/16 134/21 136/ 19 136/20 6 1/ 18 66/17 69/ 14 8817 95/4 95115 101/25 141/25 142/ 10 143/ 15 148/6 148/20 149/4
139/8 140/ l 140121 141/10 142125 143/24 209/11 149/13 149/18152/2 152/16 152119 154/19
144/25 146/9147/9147/24 148/23 149/22 testing [l ) 3 1/24 155/1 155/ l 155/ 141 58112 158/25 161/9
150/12 151/ 19 153/ 14 155/7 156/25 157/ 10 tests (21 95/ 10 201/1 163/9 164/ 17 166122 168110 168111 169/ 1
157/21 158118 159/6 159115 163/ 19 164/9 text (2) 22115 25123 169/21 170/6 170/20 173/11 183/ 18 184/6
167/ 16 169/16169/22 170/4 170/14 170/22 t han (24) 26/4 47/ 18 47120 59/ 18 59/ 19 185/3 185/4 188/ 1 188/ 10 188/ 19 188/20
171/20 17 1123 172/3 173/2 173/20 174/2 60110 62/ 12 68/4 70/14 7l/18 105/11 107/9 190/19 191/ 13 191/20 196/6 196/8 197/24
17417 174/10174/15 175/11 176/1 176/ 12 107/11 123/2 1123/22 123/25150/8158/22 198/7 198/9 198/24 199/ 19200/2200/9
177/ 13 178/2 178/ 15 183/6 186/10 186/25 165/ 13 18313 203/6 212/3 2 12123 213/ 1 200/ 10 201/1 201/4201/ 13 203/23 204/9
187/ 13 188/4 188114 188/2 1 210122223/22 Thank (16] 21/5 53123 82116 82118 97/ 17 204/13 204/ 17 207/21211/2211 /7 211/16
telling 171 28/14 58/ 10 69/170/3200/ 10 12215 123/l 13212132125 16 1/4 16215 215/3 215/10 215121216/ 10 218/1218/8
219/ 10 2 19/19 179/14 196/3 196/20 2 11/19 224/1 4 219/I 2 19/1 219/3 2 19/3 219/8 219/8 220/8
tells (51 28120 35/12 64122 74/24 75/2 thankfully 111 67/8 220/8 220/ 14 220/15 220/22 224/9
tempo 111 87/ 17 that (13191 there'll fl] 33/25
temporarily (1) 155123 that's (102] 32124 46/13 46/18 50/17 52123 t here's (47) 33/5 33/9 33/ 10 33/ 10 33/11
ten 171 45123 47/18 67/3 72120 85/25 86/4 54/ 19 6312 1 65/86617 66/ 12 68/8 71/ 14 74/5 35123 43/ 10 57/10 59/11 61/13 69/ 16 85/9
109/2 74/20 77123 86/12 86/22 89/8 89/13 89/16 86/19 9 111 9 92/2 98/l 103/15 107110 121/24
tend [4] 60/17 87/13 118/21 223/17 90/8 90/17 96/6 96119 96125 101/2 101/14 137/ 12 137/14 137122 138/5 138/ 17 141/3
tendencies (1] 95/ 13 101/24 103/9 104/ 17 115/ 18 115/23 11 5123 141/ 14 147/ 15 148/5 157124 160/20 161/20
tendering [l) 193/2 115/25 117/8 12214 128/ 17 13212 136/13 162120 163/24 166/6 175/ 1 179125 188/8
tending (2) 75/ 11 75/ 16 13817 139/15 140/20 141/3 143125 144/6 190/24 191/5 191/ 12 204/2 20515 207/17
tends [11 55/16 144/1 1 145/ 10 145/25 147/25 157/1 157/ 18 208/18 211/6 2 15/ 16 2 18/6
ten nis 121 174/ 11 2 11/ 15 157125 15811 158/4159/22 159/25 165121 thereafter [3] 68119 144/1 6 226/11
tent (4) 7216 7218 189/5 189/9 166/ 1 167/9 167125 169/9 169/ 10 170/5 these [74) 4/2120/2525/22 3215 33/ 1 33/8
tents (2] 71/23 189/3 170/ 15 171/21 173/21174/4 174/11 178/3 33/20 37/139/6 39/2140/22 4211143/9
Teresa 1167] 10/25 11/2 11/6 15/8 1519 179/12 18215 185/10 186/9 186/22 186/22 44/ 1145/2454/20 58/4 58/5 62/9 64/24 66/7
15/ 1218/1218/13 18/16 18/ 19 21/ 19 28/23 186125 187/ ll 189/16189/25 190/25 192118 70/20 70/2 170/25 71/22 73/1174/674/12
33/22 33/24 34/10 34/1 1 35/4 35/20 36/19 193120 197/13 197/ 18 198/6 200/ 11 200/25 75/21 78/3 78/ 15 78116 80/15 81/12 85/14
36121 36123 37/ 19 38/ 10 38117 39/ 1 40/9 201/ 14 201/ 19 208114 210/25 2 11/6 21218 90125 9 1/ 16 9211 9211193/3 94/3 94/7 94/24
40/18 43/1 45/ 15 45121 4614 4619 46/ 17 21311121415 214/6 218/3 22on 22212 22215 95123 114110 119116 128/3 140/5 143119
47/ 12 47/22 48/4 48/7 48/ 1148/ 1450/12 223/1 224/13 159/8 173/16 18115 181/9 181/11 182111
50/14 5111 5211252/18 55/1 5513 5517 55/10 their (21) 5/23 8/14 19/6 36/19 54/ 13 58/24 182112 182125 183/5 183/25 184/7 184/7
55/23 56/2 56/10 6411 6513 65120 6614 66/ 14 61/6 8716 88111 88/ 19 9216 9316 96/ 18 186/ 17 18717 189/13 19216 204/ 12 204/ 12
66120 66125 70/ 12 7 1/171/972113 72117 100/ 14 106/1 107/5 107/21 114/20 15215 209/25 2 10/5 2 15/20 216/24 217/4 218117
7313 73/15 73/ 19 74/ 14 74/20 76/ 1 76/5 179/4180/21 2 18124
78/24 79/8 79/11 79/15 80/18 80/19 81/24 them [70) 5123 7/22 8/13 3317 40/2 47/4 5615 t hey (228)
9115 95124 102123 103/ 1 103/ 15 103/18 57/6 67/23 70/3 76/9 79/17 79/2 1 84/22 t hey'd (3) 107/22114/20 219/18
104/ 1 104/3 104120 105/4 105/20 106/2 85/ 15 89/12 92119 93/20 94/5 96/14 101/ 12 t hey'll (SJ 58/25 88/5 94/18 196/ 19 224/8
106/6106/15106120 107/ 110713 107/ 11 103/ 14 106/4 10615 111/ 17113/ 13 114/24 t hey're (291 34/ 10 36/22 36123 37/19 42122
107/ 14107/ 15 107/ 18 107120 108/ 14 108/ 19 115/ 15117/ 10 11 9/4 126/4 126/14127/4 42123 56/ 1157/ 1268/25 74/4 79/9 83/5
108/25 109/7 109/1 1 109/13 109/16 109/21 128/6 128/ 10 129/20 130/22 153/5 153/ 12 84/19 85/6 88/8 88/ 11 90/2293/ 14 93/14
T 9419 114111 town (2) 30/9 143/19
1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - i t h r o w [SJ 62/1 7611984/25 85115 2 18/ 13 Toyota (12) 40/ 17 40/ 18 49/ 16 68/22 106123
they' re... (10) 93/ 15 94/19 12218 153/ 15 t hrown (SJ 6819 68123 6912 76113 78125 117/ 1 117/4 11 717 146111 149/ 1 149/ 18
161124 165/ 14 179/21 181/ 10 196/ 18 205/ 14 throws (1) 67/ 17 153/9
thing [8) 23/13 5911 1 89/ 11 92121 119/18 Thursday (SJ 29/ 16 43/2 109122 113/24 tractor [ll 78/10
129/2 129/ 19 178/11 115/6 trailer [SJ I 32/13 32/16 32124 32/25 33/5
things [3S) 5/9 22118 311133/1240/12 45/3 tied 121 65/3 100/15 34/18 36/1 36/1537/2 40/6 40/15 41/7 4 1/7
5912 161118 62118 63/1364/I1 68/3 70120 tight (1) 87/13 43/20 6415 6417 65/ 15 7 112 7117 7 117 137/ 12
81/6 8117 81/14 9 1/ 16 911219512095120 Tim (7] 43/ 11 43/ 13 103/15 11 1/ 15 11219 137/ 14 137122 139/13 15219152110 163/ 17
95122 118121 11 9116 124/2 124/5 12417 121/25 181/1 1 163120 163/21 164/ 11 164/13 164/ 15 164120
124123 124/25 128/14 128124 195/24 201/16 time (83) 5/ 18 5/18 11/161 1120 11/25 3216 165/1 165/4 165/24 166/2 168/3 168/5 168/6
205/20 209/19 2 10/l 32/18 32119 34/ 12 36/4 36/9 38/18 48/2 1 186117 187/25 188/7 190/1 4 190/20 190/23
think (SS) 26/3 26/17 27122 46/12 59/16 49/1149/1753/8 53/2 1 66/l 69/3 70/ 14 78/3 19 1/ 1 191/419118 1921 10 20118
60/20 63/163/286/13 89/ 19 94/19 94/24 8 1/21 81/23 82120 83/ 10 83/ 18 84/3 88/21 trailers [ 1) 32/ 11
100/ 16 101/ 16 101/2 1 103/9 104/ 19 107/3 8812 1 89/ 12 90/ 12 92118 92119 94/8 98/2 trained (7) 35118 90120 90122 90123 90124
107/10 115/18 11 611 1 116/24 11 7/ 17 118/4 99/3 100/4 105/5 105123 107/ 16 107/ 18 95/ 18 165120
11 8/5 119/ 1712017 120/9 122/ 16125/16 107/25 108125109/15 109120 11 2/ 1120/ 18 traipsing (1) 198/8
127/4 136/19 140/16 141/7141/2 1 149/9 127/ 12 128/9 128120 134/ 17135/6 137/18 tra nsaction (4) 47/5 48/ 1 7115 178/6
155/9 161/8 16 1/14164/2 166/17183/l 144/12 144/13 144/16 15212 154/12 158/24 transactions (1) 48/16
193/l 7 195/15 19615 2021172 10/14 2 11/21 160/ 16 162122 178125 189/24 193/ 14 19412 transcribed 11) 226/ 11
2 12/3 218/4 2 18/ 11 219/13220/9 222115 195125 19613 196/ 12 197/ 19 197/24 199/2 1 transcript (4) 212 813 226/8 226112
224/13 200/3 201/ 1201/4201/6 205/11 209/ 16 transcription (1] 226/l l
thinking (1) 18215 213/9 2 17/25 218/14 221/6 222116 224/ 1 transport (3) 15213 15218 165/17
thinner (SJ 68/21 78/6 78/ 12 85/17 195/3 timeline (4) 45/22 46/6 47115 5516 transported (4) 4 1/22 151/ 17 15211 152111
third (2) 6/23 4 1/ 1 timers fl) 121/ 18 travel (11 212112
thirteen [I) 13217 times (121 46/l 1 63/5 67/3 72120 88120 traveling (1) 84119
thirty (2) 167/3 200/6 93/ 17 93/ 18 93/ 19 9417 97/6 106/17 201/2 1 treat [l) 93124
Thirty-nine (1) 167/3 tinted (1) 147/ 15 treating (3] 8317 83/10 83/17
this(34SI tip[l) 77119 tree (21 66/ 15 147/6
THOMAS [7) 1/ 15 3/14 80/14 80/14 80115 tire (JI 191/21 trial (311 1/4 1/5 5/2 516 5119 6/3 619 6/16
133/8 133/13 tires [4) 84/2 1 168/23 169/l 169/3 7/ 14 7/25 7/25 8/3 8/9 12/20 15/24 20/22
thorough 12) 40/14 7 1/20 tissue (41 45/8 45/9 199/1 1 204/3 2 1121 211222212 26/ 11 681286/14 86120
those [99) 10/ 12 14/2 1 18/ 122/922118 29124 title (1) 158/4 88125 88125 89/4 89113 90/ 11 90/1 1 90/ 17
33/ 1135/ 1437/ 1137/ 1740/ 12 42115 45/3 titled (1) 157125 91/8
49/14 49/19 50/11 5011551/3 51/ 13 5817 today (SI 4/22 46/2179/3 160/19 176/6 trial's ( t J 89/8
58/8 61118 63/ 12 63/15 65/16 68/6 6919 together (16) 107/16 108/1 108/11 114/ 1 trials (2) 2617 87/8
69115 721 10 74/2 74/3 79/12 79/14 79/14 115/ 12 124/2125/ 19 128/4130/25 131/3 trick (3) 8317 83/10 83/16
79/15 79/18 79/23 80/9 99/10 120/2 125/3 131/8 131/8 163/13 165/12 165/ 19 165122 tried (4) 195/1 199/3 199/5 202/24
12618 126/25 127/8 127/20 127122 128/5 told (28) 2 1124 2219 26/2 26116 27/8 27/ 11 tries (II 85/ 16
128/5 128/8 128/ 12 128/13 128/ 14 128124 2813 30/25 51120 5214 5919 6419 72118 7417 trip [l] 127/15
13112 131/8 142118 153/17155/17 157/ l l 97/12 103/12 106/17 111/17 113/12 116/18 trips (1] 8512
157/13 16112 1 163/10 164/20 169/3 169/14 11 7/13 118/3 11 8/5 126/15 126/18 135/14 trooper (101 170/11 170/ 12 170113 170/ 16
169/22 170/1 173/12 174/19 175/8 175/ 13 141/l 216/16 186/4 186/12 187/9 189/19 197/3 21 218
175/22176/5 176/9176112 176/15 176/22 toll (11 178/17 troopers (2) 180/8 206/21
176/24 178/15 180/6180124 181/24 186/23 Tom (8) 417 25/3 90/21 104125 109122 truck (4) 34/4 164/ 14 16613 167/4
189/4 192115 192116 194/ 17 204125 209/5 111/ 17 12 1124 133/6 true (7] 6/ 11 89/9 9214 208/14 2 13/ 13
209/18 213/8 214/22 215/21215/252 19/ 11 tomorrow (6] 16412 188/3 224/9 224/ 18 213/17 226/ 12
219120 22012 22212 1 223/22 224/21 225/4 truth (6) 20/16 58/ 10 81/ 17 9 1/14 92/20
though (10) 34/6 3612145/548/7 5612 1 57/9 too (7) 38/22 61113 11 0/8 111/18 148/6 221/21
64/ 17 69124 92116 11 6/12 157/ 19 159/13 truthful [21 57/17 58/6
thought(lS) 114/22 115/17127/ 12194/ 16 tookll8) 4211043/ 166812270/ 14 104/ 10 try (12) 25122 36/8 50/ 19 50/20 57/4 61/ 16
195/4 195/ 12 195/ 12 195/ 14 202115 216/6 1061712 1/ 19 167/ 11 174/ 18 17613 176/25 92116 11 2113 113/9 199/12 199/ 13 20 1/ 18
21617 216112 216/13 22213 222123 177/2 199/ 14 200/3 200/4 203121 206/25 trying (41 56122 11217 113/19 215/ 11
thousand [11 180/4 209123 Tuck Ill 174/6
thousands (1) 114/10 tooth (4) 76/5 1615 7617 76/10 Tuck's (1) 174/6
threat (4) 1617 18/6 18/ 16 65/23 top (6) 3213 68/9 147/20 147/21 17 1/ 12 Tues [1) 164/3
threatened [l] 18/18 191/ 1 Tuesday [7] 40/13 41/ 17 41/24 42/10 109/24
three (3 1) 18/10 18/15 18122 22/3 24/ 18 topic (1) 194/2 118/4 169/17
26/ 14 27/9 37/ 12 49/ 14 50118 6214 78/8 topics (1) 160/ 14 turn [4] 33117 34/8ll0/23I 12110
9 1/ 1591/2194/24107/21111/25115/ 14 tore(ll 209/22 turns (3) 40/20 87/5 87/6
138/6 14617 158/23 180/ 12 18211 183/8 torrential [l( 2 11/ 10 TV [41 83/12 83/22 86/8 19 1/5
183/8 192/13 200/5 200/6 2 15/2 1 2 1617 toss (1) 85/4 twelve (2) 132/7 132119
216/ 14 tossed (1) 86/5 Twenty (4] 109/ 12 148/24 197/ 1 219/9
th ree-dimensional (1) 183/8 total (1) 181/ 14 Twenty-five {l) 109/ 12
three-thirty (11 200/6 tour 171 44/ l 44/4 44/8 18217 19012 190/3 Twenty-four [l) 148/24
threw (2) 67/23 195/8 196/14 Twenty-seven (l] 2 19/9
throat (1) 6612 1 tours (II 44/3 Twenty-two [l) 197/1
through (2SI 21/ 16 61/21 63/24 9 1/9 120/19 toward [8] 143/ 1 14817 156/111 59/25 twice [6) 67/4 6917 80/22 80/24 109/8 2 19/ 12
126/22 126124 132/6 132111142110 143/ 12 159/25 189/5 190/1119 1123 twists (2) 87/5 87/6
163/4 163/5 166125 180/24 18217 183/5 towards [8] 27/2 30122 65/13 65/14 11117 two (83 J I 0123 11/5 15/6 15111 18/ 13 23/8
189/ 19 19611196110198115 206/2 208/ 17 171/8186121 18712 1 24124 25122 26/ 1133/1837/12 37121 46/22
209/9 209113 towers (I) 48/ 18 50118 50121 5012154/1754/2 1 59/ 11 6 1/24
throughout [71 85/5 91/8 92110 92122 93/10 Towing (1) 143/25 67/23 68/3 68/4 68/7 71/22 72/1 72/5 72110
163/3 169/24 175/18 184/21 185/4 188/9 155/17 155/21 155/22 156/3 156/ 16 156/17
T 188118 191/ 1 191/ 17 194/3 194/5 194/ 14 156/ 18 156122158/23 158125 159/1 163/5
two... (55) 74/ 11 76/18 76/19 77/9 90/ 19 194/ 17 194124 194125 195/8 199/20 200/ 17 180/4 194/20 204125 20515 20518 205/ 12
90125 91/18 94/ 17 95/ 19 100/20 100123 201n 201115 202110 202123 202125 205125 206/ 1206110206/ 16 206/24 20811 1 209/8
103/ 16 106/ 17 107/ 11 11 1115 114/ 18 116/2 207/6 20717 210/23 21113 21617 216/12 209/17 209/23
117/24 120/22 129/14 137/12 138/ 1 152113 216/13 218/4 219/13 220/5 220/11 220/ 19 verbal (11 202/3
153/18154/19154/21 157/12 164/15 164/17 220/22 221/19 22214 verdict (SI 6/8 19/2 19/ 15 19/21 20/9
176/14176123 176123 176125 177/ 1418017 upon (16] 111181215 15/2 119/ 1419/ 18 verified (1) 61120
180/ 12 181125 188/12 195122 197/ 1 198113 19/23 20/4 55/ 18 101/ 17134/22 145/21 verify (SI 61116 70/6 70/16 70/ 18 80/4
198113 199120 200/5 20216 202116 202117 151/ 13 160/21 191/2 194/21 212111 verifying 111 71/8
213/8 215/23 216/ 13 217/ 18 217119 223/12 upper [21 159/22 174/25 version fill 55/2 56116 58124 63/25 64/J
223/13 22417 ups Ill 74/21 65/1 119114 184/2 1 188/18 189/21 218/5
two-and-a-half (21 50/18 50/21 us [90) 30/25 88/12 94/1 I00/6 103/1 103/20 very [Sl J 21/9 23/9 31/23 3216 3217 34/2
two-man (41 68/4 6817 76/ 18 77/9 103/2 1 104/6 104/ 10 105/ 19 106/10 106/25 34/8 35/2 35/2 39/ 15 42116 42116 42117 49/4
two-week (1) 26/l l 11 3123 113124 113125 114/5 115/8 11 6/ 18 51114 53123 58/ 1 5811 58119 6018 6315 63110
type [8] 104122 119/18 204/2 204/3 204/3 117121 119/6 119110 121114 121122 123/18 63/ 11 631116511065/ 12 65/ 12 67121 7012
204/15 205/ 17 211/13 124/24 12517 133/ 17 135/14 136/19 136/20 70/2 72124 72125 87/ 15 89/1 91117 91/17
Tvson Ill 188/2 139/8 140/1 142118 142125 143/24 146/9 94/3 97/18 100/8 103/3 103/3 103/4 107/15
11 0/5110171 17/21 156122159/10166/14
u 147/9 147/24 149/22 150/12 152120153/14
15517 155120 156/25 157/20 157/21 158/ 18 183/62 15/ 12
uh (902) 159/6 159/15 163/ 19 164/9 167/ 16 169/ 16 vicious (1) 4217
ultimately (3) 136/8 165/22 195/5 169122 170/3 170/4 170/14 170/22 17117 victim [21 66/ 19 161/ 19
um [341] 171/20 171/23 17214 173/2173/20 174/2 victim's [I) 5018
un Ill 209/8 174/10 174/ 15 174123 176/1176/3 176/4 video [31 8311 1 83/22 93/9
un-sandwich (1) 209/8 176/ 12 177/ 13 17812178/ 15 183/6186/ 10 videos [4] 93/3 9417 94/18 95/15
unable (I ) 202121 187/ 1 187/13 187/22188/4 188/ 14 188/ 16 videotaped (2) 91/ 11 91/ 13
unattached (10) 137/ 15 139/ 14 139/21 188121200/10206/9 210/22 215117 217/ 10 videotapes (4) 22116 91/16 91117 91/18
163/21 164/12 16612 167/4 183/ 15 183/ 17 use 117( 8/4 16/7 18/6 18116 18/ 18 54/16 view (7( 7219 184/11 18617 187/12 189121
184/6 65/11 65/1265123 83/6 85/ 12 9915 155110 19016 191/24
unattainable Ill 183125 161/ 12 175/19190/ 17 22 1/24 viewpoint Ill 166/ I
uncle [20) 55/2 5611 56/1 62/18 63/14 64/4 used (23] 18/18 20/11 38/1 146/1473/3 views (1) 183125
6611 1 66/20 67/3 73/ 1 77/l 77/ 11 77/ 16 78/ 1 83/24 124/2 127/ 16130/16 131/2 1 138/24 VIN Ill 34/9
78117 78121 8214 8215 8415 84/ 18 14813 151123 153/2 16117 161/ 17168124 VINs (11 208/24
unclothed 12) 66/23 67/ 15 194/25 195/3 19515 19517 199/ 11 200/21 violated (1) 14/24
uncorroborated 141 9211 9217 9512 95125 uses (2) 63/20 181/14 violence 111 65/22
uncrush (1) 20712 using 161 38113 38/ 13 113/8 136/25 194123 violent(J) 51114
uncrushed [2) 206/25 207/7 207/13 Virginia (11 80115
under (4] 12/ 17 78/I 101/ 10 115/ 17 usually [21 13 1/2 160/19 virtual (SJ 44/3 44/8 18217 190/2 196/14
underneath [31 68116 77120 189/1 1 utilized (7] 152121 152124 15317 16317 visible Ill 199/ 15
understand (13) 5/4 201212811630/2 60/ 1 163/ 14 175/ 19 180122 visit [2] 43/25 83/ 19
60122 177/ 12 193/9 199/4 209/11 212115 UW Ill 104/ 15 visiting [1] 182110
216/ 15 219/22 UW-GB Ill 104/ 15 visual (31 200/23 20 1/ 12 209/4
understandably (II 48/ 10
understanding [lS] 101/6 114/18 139/6 v visuals [l) 82/19
vital Ill 6/10
158/20 159/ 14 161/ 16 164/ 16 178/6 182113 V3 [31 80/18 110113 111/8 voice [3) 38/16 11 0/3 112125
189/ 15 192/17 197/22 204/ 10 209/7 212115 value [1) 151/24 volleyball (2) 125/2 125/9
understands (3) 187/7 195/ 18 224/8 van (171 38120 40/8 4019 4117 48/2 84/21 volume (1] 95/25
understood (3] 198123 214/5 214/8 8615 167/ 11 167/ 17 167/17183/18 184/ 17 volunteer (31 37/13 169/24 180/ 11
unfolded (1) 170/18 185/ 12 190/15 190/ 15 190/19 190/20 volunteers [2] 49/9 206/22
unfortunately [2) 48/3 74/22 various (21 97/1 1 160/22 Voyager [1] 167/18
unidentifiable [1] 35/2 vehicle (118] 34/3 34/9 34113 34/ 13 34116 vulnerable 111 95/ 14
unique [l) 62111 34/ 17 3515 35/20 36/ 1 36/21 40/23 48/23
units (1) 35/ 16 50/13 511215211352114 68/ 12 68/ 17 77/2 w
unless [2] 19/9 99119 77/15 106/5 106/20 10711 115/5 116/18 wagon 111 170/6
unlike (1) 87/4 11 6/20117/5 135/ 12 135/13 141/1 141/3 wait 11) 56/9
unnatural (3) 57/22 59/10 60/3 142/9 146/6 146/ 10 146/ 12 146/13 146/14 waiting (3) 158/8 205/I 205/4
unnecessary (lj 92114 146/20 146123 146/25 147/9 147/ 11 147/ 12 waits (1) 66/24
unsure (1) 213/9 147/ 13 147/ 15 147/20 147/22 147/25 14814 walk (6) 83/2 96/12 171/7 182/7 209/ 13
until (14] 5/13 5/ 16 7/24 3214 42110 5519 148/8 148/ ll 148/ 14 148117 149/8 149/ 12 212125
88120 94/l 99/ 19 101/2 154/20 160/19 20116 149/ 17 149/24 150/ 16 150117150/18 150/ 19 walk-through [21 18217 209/13
211/9 151/6 151/8 151 / 11 151/16151119151/23 walked (1) 68/19
unusual (5] 82123 11 0/5 125/18 136/1 l 152/1 15211 15216 15217 152115 154/9 walking (2) 83/5 20915
136/13 154/ 13 154115 154/ 18 154/18 154/21 154/23 walks (2) 65/20 124/25
up (103] 21/4 34/4 43/ 14 48n 48115 50/ 12 155/ 16156/6 156/8156/ 12 156/13 156/18 wall (6] 3811 38/3 73/2 187/5 187/6 187/18
55125 5717 6513 69115 76/9 77/ 16 77/20 156/21 157/25 15811 15815 158/ 13 158/22 want (36) 23/ 13 27/ 15 3217 36/19 57/6 60125
78/24 81125 83/ 10 83/ 19 84/20 84/22 8516 159/7 167/21 169/ 18 170/5 170/8 170/ 16 65/ 1165/18 66/3 75/8 86/18 87/ 11 87/13
85/7 85/13 85/14 85/18 87/2 87/14 92/20 171/4 180/3 183123 185/12 185/25 19911 87/25 89119 91/15 91/20 91/22 91/24 9317
93/18 94/23 96123 98/18 104/8 104/10 106/4 199/2 20116 204/10 204/22 205/16 205/25 93/8 93119 93/2 1 94/ 194/294/22 95/20
109/24 112123 I 19/9 121/5 121/8 121/ 16 206/4 206/ 12 206/23 207/ 1 207/ 10 207123 95/22 106/3 132120 159/ 12 160/24 165/15
121/17121/21 127/18129/ 18 132123 134/2 208/21 209/1 209/ 19 197/6 207/6 20717
135/1 138/ 15 139/22 140/5 140/ 10 142122 vehicles (43) 35/1 37/6 49/ 12 106/ 1 135/8 wanted (12) 21/4 22118 24/ 14 94/ 13 9913
143/5 147/ 16 148/8 148/ 15 149/4 149/ 18 139/3 140/10140/ 10 140/24141/4 141/ 15 99/2 1 104/8 105/2 105/ 15 107115 108/2 1
149/25 150/3 155/1 156/815917 161/ 17 142/17 142/18 143/9 143/11 143/ 14 143/15 115/15
84/11 86/25 103/23 105/17 106124 110/22
w wear 111 128/25
wearing (7] 78/16 79/15 79/ 18 126/14 117/15 118/13 11 9/5 142122 143/23 144/22
wants (4) 6517 84/7 8517 89/17 126/16 174/ 14 194/ 12 148125 149/21 150/11 151/1 15515 158/17
warn ( l) 63/7 weather 12) 151/14151/15 163/ 18 167/ 14171/ 19 171/23 172125 178/1
warrant[ll] 70/1171/157215 144/23 weddings [II 105/13 181/14
144125 145/ 1 145/ 10 16219 162116 162118 Wednesday (3) 42/21 109125 11 8/5 whatever 14) 96/14 96115 178/8 205/16
21012 week[l5] 11/1826/ 114211563/2 109/6 when 1104) 5/20 9/9 13/20 16/24 20/4 20/25
warrants (SJ 35/9 35/10 35110 35/1 4 49/ 1 142/13 169/8 169/12 17517 178/25 179/16 27/18 27/19 29/9 29/15 31/3 31/3 32/5 33/18
was (4411 187/19 195119 196/11 202/24 33/19 34/10 34/10 38/138/939/13 47/15
washed [11 219/6 week-long [I J 169/8 47/15 47/16 52111 52/ 12 52123 53/8 53/22
wasn't [ll) 36/2 45/ 10 45110 5515 58113 weeks (3) 21/12 2212 50/18 55116 56122 59121 60116 6119 6218 6516
6012 162115110/1 125/ 18 218/8 222/3 weigh (3) 203115 203/16 203/ 19 65116 68119 69114 71/1 72121 74/4 76/6 8013
watch (14) 62123 84/7 86/4 92111 93/2 93/8 weighed (l) 203/ 13 84/ 16 87/ 10 8712 1 88/7 89/3 92111 9312
93/16 93/17 9415 94/ 17 107/22 108/2 1 125/3 weight 14) 7/ 12 12116 96/ 14 96115 93/20 93/22 93/25 94/ 17 95/20 95/21 104/3
131/2 well [83) 917 13/ 17 16121 221112211222119 106/3 109/20 110/19 11211 112/14 11 2/21
watched 111 131/8 23/ 1 24/2 27/1 32/23 33/16 47/8 54/14 5616 11 212 1 118/3 120/4 126/24 128/17 129/13
watches 121 83/1 1 8617 5618 61/ 13 70/11711373/9 74/17 77/17 134/23 135/15 138/12 140116 146/15 153/20
watching (7] 22116 63/4 83/22 91/16 93/3 83/24 85/18 87/9 89/12 89/17 89/20 9312 15417 155116 157/7 158/21 162118 165/11
107/17 130/24 96/10 96/16 96/17 100/20 103/14 104/3 165/ 18 166122 175/ 17 177/9194113 194/16
watery (1) 212113 104/6105/ 12 108/16117/21118/25124/3 194125 195111 195114 198/23 199/ 18 199120
way 127) 22122 24/ 16 40/24 47/ 14 47/ 14 135/ 16 13712 138/ 1 1421614917151/21 20012 200/9 204/9 206/9 206116 210/9
47/20 5619 67/25 71123 74/2 1 75/5 82125 15213 153/6 154/ 1159/ 10 161/ 16164/24 21212 1214/2 217/ 11 217/25220122
92122 111/3 124/22 137/11 138/13 142119 165/4 166/25 171/11 175/4 178/9 179124 where [901 21120 23/2124/1233/ 14 34/16
146/19151/4 158/20 182119 192121 193/ 19 181125 183/1 186/20 187/ 10 190/6 193/3 4419 44/17 47/23 48/ 11 51/23 53/6 58/18
198/24 215/6 216/ 11 19416 197/ 11 199/24 200123 201/19 206/14 59/2 5914 6814 71/14 71/ 19 7216 72/8 72110
ways (3] 10/13 14/21 18/ 1 206/19 206/2 1 20712 207125 208/13 21117 74/23 76123 76/24 77/184/248918 9114 9116
we (163) 4/20 5/ 18 21/20 2211 23/2 1 24/ 16 212117 214/ 14 216/IO 217/9 218/8 220/ 13 9216 96/22 103/18 10617 111122 112121
2613 27/5 27/ 13 29/15 3214 3215 44/ 10 45/25 222115 113/6115/14116/8117/8 11 8/18124/ 10
47/15 48/ 12 49/ 15 51/3 5216 53/ 11 53/ 18 well-informed (1) 11 7/21 129/ 12 129/ 12 13112 135/8 135/12 137/14
59122 59125 6019 60116 60119 61 /2 61/ 14 went(20) 68/16 78/ 1104/ 15104/201 11120 137125 138/4 138/ 14 13912 139/21 140/25
62/8 63/15 63/ 16 6516 65116 67/12 68/13 111/22 111/23 114122127/ 17 135/6 145/ 18 141/ 13 14214 14412150/14 15217 155/21
69125 70/12 70/ 13 70/14 7112 74/15 76/14 19419 198/13 199/ 1121 0/62 14/11 214/13 155/22 156/3 15615 158/ I 158/3 158/4
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196/10 208/10 215125 217/22 219/19 220/14 223/14 223/17 49/23 5012 56113 58/21 59/12 59113 6016
William 111 169/23 223/19 224/17 224/19 60/14 60/22 60/24 61/6 6117 61/7 6119 61111
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your ... [40] 136/14 137/10 143/12 14417
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zipper fl] 79125
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zoom (2) 141/20 166/5
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BRANCH 3
2
3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
4
5 TRIAL DAY 2
6 vs. Case No . 06 CF 88
7 BRENDAN R. DAS SEY,
8 DEFENDANT .
10
11
BEFORE: HON. JEROME L. FOX
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
16 THOMAS J . FALLON
Special Prosecutor
17 On behalf of the State of Wisconsin .
18 NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Pros ecutor
20 MARK R. FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
Attorney at Law
Defendant
1
COPY
1 * * * * * * * *
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2
1 IN 0 EX
2 WITNESSES PAGE
3
SERGEANT WILLIAM TYSON
4
5
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 28 - 40
6
7 SPECIAL AGENT KEVIN HEIMERL
8 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 40 - 67
9 Cross-Examination by ATTORNE Y FREMGEN 68-87
10 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 87-88
11
DEPUTY DANIEL KUCHARSKI
12
13
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 109- 125
14
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 125-127
15
Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDE LSTE IN 128
16
Re-redirect Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ 128 - 129
17
18 JOHN ERTL
19 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 130 - 167
20 Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 167-181
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1 C 0 N T' D I N D E X
2 WITNESSES PAGE
3
WILLIAM NEWHOUSE
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Direct Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 181-211
5
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 211 - 217
6
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 217-218
7
Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 218
8
9 KENNETH OLSON
10 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 219-240
12 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 246-247
13
15 79-94 27 28
16 95-114 67 67
17 115 68 68
18 116- 131 108 109
19 132 154 167 167
20 133 240 249
21 134-135 211 249
22 136- 140 240 249
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4
1 (Reconvened at 8 : 34 a.m . )
2 THE COURT : Morning counsel.
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Mo r ning .
4 THE COURT : We're going to resume State vs.
5 Dassey, 06 CF 88. Uh, Mr . Kratz .
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge . The
7 State appears by Calumet County Distri ct Attorney
8 Ken Kratz. The, um , uh, St ate also appears by
9 Assistant District Attorney -- Excuse me.
10 Assistant, uh , Attorney General Tom Fal lon,
11 Assistant District Attorney Norm Gahn also
12 appearing as special prosecutors.
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Attorney Mark Frerngen
14 appears with Attorn ey Ray Edelstein, and the
15 defendant appears personally.
16 THE COURT : You may call your first
17 witness .
18 ATTORNEY KRAT Z: Thank you, Judge . The
19 State will call Bill Tyson to the s tand .
20 THE CLERK : Please raise your right hand.
21 WILLIAM TYSON ,
22 called as a witness herein, having been fir st duly
24 THE CLERK: Please be seated . Please state
25 your name and spell your last name for the record .
5
1 THE WITNESS : Wi lliam Tyson, T-y-s-o-n .
4 Q Mr . Tyson, please t e ll the jury how you're
5 employed?
6 A I am a patrol sergeant with the Calumet County
7 Sheriff 's Department .
8 Q If you'd speak up just a little bit , we'd
9 appreciate it . How long have you been employed
10 with the Calumet County Sheriff's Departmen t?
11 A I 've been employed wi t h the Sheriff's Department for
12 15 years approx imately.
13 Q And could you descri be , please, for t he jury your
14 general duties with the Sheriff's Department?
15 A Currently , like I said, I 'm a patrol sergeant , so I
16 supervise -- I'm the immediate s upervisor for the
17 patrol staff . Um , prior to that I wa s a road
18 officer .
19 Q Um
20 A My responsibilities as road officer were to respond
21 to call to service , things like that . I did have
22 specialized training as an evidence technician , um,
23 back in 1994 , whi c h I processed crime scenes, things
24 of that nature .
25 Q The specialized traini n g , and I assume your
6
1 experience in , um , b eing an evidence tech , urn ,
2 what more, specifically, does that entail, if you
3 could tell the jury?
4 A The specialized training, um, re -- respond to a
5 crime scene. You know, certain officers can do that
6 if they have this specialized training. You take --
7 you look for pieces of evidence . Urn, you can collect
8 the evidence, t ake it back, process the evidence
9 looking for fingerprints, DNA evidence, things of
10 that nature .
11 Q Were you employed in that capacity on the 5th of
12 November, 2005?
13 A Yes .
14 Q And on the 5th of November, 2005, were you asked
15 to , uh, respond to a scene known as the Avery
16 Salvage Yard?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Could you tell the jury, please, what were your
19 first duties upon your arrival at that scene?
20 COURT REPORTER : Mr . Kratz, one moment
21 please.
22 (Wherein break was taken to fix a
23 technical problem.)
24 COURT REPORTER: Let's try it again .
25 You can continue where you left off .
7
1 ATTORNEY KRATZ: If I can remember .
2 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Uh, your first duties on
3 your arrival at the scene, if you could describe

4 that for the jury?
5 A Sure . Um, upon arriving at the scene, I was directed
6 to the lower portion of the junkyard area where

7 Teresa 's vehicle was located. Uh , my
8 responsibilities were to maintain security around the
9 area where her vehicle was located .
10 Q Thereafter , um, Sergeant Tyson, because of your
11 evidence technician training , were you assigned
12 with other officers and put into what's called a
13 search team?
14 A Yes . Um, upon arriving at the command center, after
15 clearing from Teresa's vehicle, I was assigned with
16 three deputies from the Mani t owoc Count y Sheriff's
17 Department, um, Andrew Colborn, Detective Dave
18 Rerniker, and, uh, Investigator or Detective Jim Lenk.
19 Q And that first , uh , evening, that is, the 5th of
20 November, were you assigned to search a
21 particular building or residence upon that
22 property?
23 A We were instructed to execute the search warrant at
24 Steven Avery's tra iler.
25 Q And did you do so?
8
1 A Yes .
2 Q Now, t h e trailer, itself, uh , Sergeant Tyson ,
3 has, um, several rooms as I understand. Uh, if
4 you could just briefly d e scribe t he layou t of the
5 traile r for us, I ' d appreciate it?
6 A Urn , when you walk into t h e main entrance , you're
7 walking into the living room area . Um, directly off
8 of the liv ing room would be the kitchen . You go down
9 a hallway , uh, there 's a bedroom, and there's a
10 bathroom, and then there's the -- t h e final b edroom
11 at the end of the t r ailer .
12 Q Sergeant , I'm going to have you loo k at an
13 exhibit that's already been received. This is
14 Exhibit No. 72 in this case . Um, be so kind ,
15 please , as to take , uh , the laser pointer, which
16 has been provided, and a little bit more in
17 detail describe t he layo ut of Mr. Avery's
18 trailer?
19 A This area r ight here would be the ki tchen area . And
20 this area here was the living room area. And this
21 would be the hallway. We got the first bedroom here .
22 The bathroom would be right about here . And this
23 would be Steve's bed room back in the corner .
24 Q And on the 5th of November, were you asked to
25 complete a search of the e ntire residence?
9
1 A Yes .
2 Q Can you describe the , uh, thoroughness or the
3 scope of that particular s earch, if you can
4 recall?
5 A Um , the first search that was conducted was a quick
6 search o f the -- t he residence looking for anything
7 obvious . Any signs of Teresa, anything that would
8 lead us i n any direction, um, to go on . At t hat time
9 we were unsure of what we had exactly .
10 Q I'm going to hand you , uh, several photos t hat
11 will assist in describing your search efforts .
12 Um, we're going to start with the living room ,
13 uh, area of, um, Mr . Avery's residence . You 've
14 been handed Exhibit No. 79 . Can you tell us wha t
15 tha t is , please?
16 A This would be a photograph of the computer area i n
17 t h e corner of the living r oom .
18 Q And did you , with the assistance of other search
19 team members, um, search this particular area of
20 Mr . Avery's living room?
21 A Yes .
22 Q Have you look at the next Exhibit , please .
23 Exhibit No. 80 . Tell us what we're looking at
24 here?
25 A Be a photograph of the AutoTrader Magazine .
10
1 Q And , if you recall , cou ld you tell the jury where
2 this particular exhibit -- or this particular
3 item was f ound o n t hat computer de sk?
4 A This one , I believ e , De t e ctive Dave Remiker located
5 and it was sitt i ng on top of the desk . The computer
6 desk in the living room .
7 Q Exhibit No . 81 , also from AutoTrader, can you
8 tell us what that is , p l ease ?
9 A This would be a p hotograph of a b i ll of sal e through
10 AutoTrader Magazine .
11 Q And as we look at the large screen , in the lower
12 left-hand corner of this document , actually has
13 the Auto Tr ader Maga z i ne logo; i sn ' t that , uh ,
14 correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now, Sergeant Tyson , so that the jury has a
17 better understanding of the , urn , methodology, or
18 how law enforcement performs these searches , uh,
19 do different officers have different
20 responsibilities when , urn , a -- a search , not
21 only of a residence , but any kind of search is
22 undertaken?
23 A Yes . For example , o n this eveni ng my
24 responsibilities were to document what the officers
25 were doing . Urn, taki ng notes after the evidence was
11
1 collected, take custody of the evidence, and , you
2 know, secure it. So that was my responsibi lities .
3 The other officers were searching different areas .
4 You know, I was keeping a -- a watch on them to see
5 what they were finding , documenting the exact minute
6 when something was located, where it was located ,
7 things of that nature.
8 Q When these searches, uh, occur, because of the
9 possibility of DNA, or other kinds of trace
10 evidence, uh, do searching officers wear some
11 kind of protective items or gloves?
12 A Yes. All the officers that were in the trailer that
13 I was with had gloves on. Um, and they would change
14 the gloves routinely with, um, each new item that we
15 were looking at , or whatever, so nothing would be
16 contaminated .
17 Q If you could explain that? Just -- just take a
18 moment and explain that a little bit more . If
19 something is handled, you said that, uh, you
20 would then change into a different pair of
21 gloves . Um, why does that occur? Why are you
22 trained that that occurs?
23 A Well, for example, uh, you fi nd a piece of evidence,
24 you may not know exactly what's on it, be it any type
25 of DNA, blood, or anything like that, you pick i t up,
12
1 um, if you don ' t , you pick up something else , you're
2 going to transfer what you've just had on that item
3 onto a different piece of evidence, and it's
4 con taminated at that point, because now you can no
5 longer say that t h at -- did that item have the blood
6 on it already or did not? Um, and if you didn't
7 change your gloves , you can't say , um, because you've
8 now transferred i t and you contamina ted new evidence .
9 Q I don't know if I asked you , and perhaps it's
10 obvious by this particular p i cture, uh, but where
11 was this bill of sale found within the residence?
12 A Uh , this one, I believe , was found on the -- or in a
13 drawer on -- in the comput e r desk .
14 Q All right . In the same living room area near the
15 AutoTrader Magazine that we've, uh, previously

16 seen; is that right?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Let's move, i f we can, to the bedroom area . That
19 is , the master bedroom . Bedr oom of Steven Avery .
20 Could you describe , first , um, the size of that
21 bedroom? Then describe the search efforts that
22 occurred in t here?
23 A It's a rather smal l bedroom. Um, you got the queen
24 size bed, I believe , is in t he middle of the room .
25 Uh , he had a walkway just to walk around and get to
13
1 the other side . Then there was closets up against
2 the wall. So it was a smaller room .
3 Um, and when we entered that room, we
4 had , urn -- like Sergeant Col born , he concentrated
5 his efforts on one side, Detective Remiker and,
6 uh , Detective Lenk searched the other area, and I

7 stood pretty much in the doorway watching what
8 was going on, document ing, uh, what was located .
9 Q Now, this is the very first night of the search .
10 Uh, is it fair to say that , uh, you and other law
11 enforcement officers were unaware of what had
12 happened to Teresa Halbach at that time?
13 A That's correct . We didn't know exactly what we had
14 at that time .
15 Q Did you specifically know what you were looking
16 for?
17 A No . We were looking for anything that might lead us
18 in a direction , any clue, any type of evidence .
19 Q Al l right . I ' m showing you now what's been
20 marked as Exhibit No. 82 . Describe what that is
21 for the jury, please?

22 A This would be a photograph of, um, the headboard area
23 of Steven Avery ' s bed.
24 Q Now, a bed -- or on top of, or above, uh,
25 Mr. Avery's bed, uh, could you tell the jury what
14
1 you observed on the 5th of November?
2 A It's kind of cut off on the photo, but up on top
3 there is a -- right above the bed there was a gun
4 rack, um, which housed two firearms, and there were
5 two long, um, barreled firearms in the gun rack
6 directly above the bed.

7 Q All right. I think we have a better picture of
8 the gun rack, itself , which is Exhibit No. 83 .
9 We will move to that . Tell us what we're looking
10 at here?
11 A That is the photo of the gun rack that was, um,

12 directly above the bed.
13 Q All right. Now, at this early search, at this

14 early stage, were those firearms, um, confiscated
15 or seized by you and other officers?
16 A On the night of the 5th, those firearms wer e not
17 seized . We knew we had opportunity to come back . So

18 those firearms were not taken at that time.
19 Q All right. And that concept, the concept of
20 knowing that you were going to be able to come

21 back or that other law enforcement officers were
22 going to be able to come back, could you describe
23 that a little bit more for the jury?
24 A Well, the scene, itself, um, you know, the whole
25 area , the junkyard, we didn't know exactly where we
15
1 would be directing our resources. Um, so we knew we
2 had a lot of work to do. This is a very large area .
3 We could not humanly get t his done within one
4 evening . Urn, so we knew we were going to be there
5 how long, exactly , we d i d n 't know . But , urn, we -- we
6 knew we would be back the next day for sure .
7 Q It turned out to be almost eight days; is that
8 right?
9 A Correct.
10 Q On this particular gun rack, that is , the gun
11 rack in Mr. Avery ' s , uh, bedroom, how many long
12 guns , that is , how many rifles , were located on
13 that gun rack , if you recall?
14 A There were t wo .
15 Q The r i fle on top , uh -- I 'm going to show you a
16 photograph that is Exhibit No . 86. Do you
17 recognize that?
18 A Okay . It appears to be one of the firearms that was
19 located in the gun rack in the bedroom .
20 Q And just so this jury understands, and they'll
21 hear from another witness , but , uh , it wasn't
22 you, but a different officer, actually, on the
23 next day , that seized t h is weapon ; is that right?
25 Q The other , urn, weapon, uh, Exhibit No. 87? Tell
16
2 A Be a photograph of a muzzleloade r. I believe this
3 was the other firearm that was in the gun rack.
4 Q All right. Mr . Tyson, um, within the bedroom,
5 uh , itself, uh, did you, during the search, and
6 your fellow law enforcement officers , uh, locate
7 any items or obvious items that would be capable
8 of restraint? That is, uh, capable of
9 rest raining another person?
10 A Yes . Um, Sergeant Colborn located a set of handcuffs
11 and a set of leg irons.
12 Q I'm going to show you what's been , uh, marked as
13 Exhibit No . 84. Tell us what we 're looking at,
14 please?
15 A Be a photograph of the handcuffs that were found in
16 Steven Avery's bedroom.
17 Q Do you remember , and can you describe for t he
18 jury, from wha t location those handcuffs were
19 recovered?
20 A I have in my report that it was taken from a
21 nightstand , which was directly next to the desk . Uh,
22 that nightstand has now become known as the bookcase .
23 Um, Sergeant Colborn located the handcuffs and the
24 leg irons in that bookcase , which was right next to
25 the desk.
17
1 Q All right . You had mentioned some leg irons as
2 well. I ' ll have y ou look at Exhibi t No . 85 .
3 Tell us what, uh -- what this is , please?
4 A It' d be a photograph of those leg irons .
5 Q Do you know what , uh, the handcuffs and leg irons
6 fou nd in Mr . Avery ' s bedroom were made of?
7 A They're your standard , uh , steel , um , handcuffs and
8 leg irons.
9 Q I show you what's been, uh, marked as Exhibit No.
10 91 . The item, it sel f . Uh , t el l the jury wha t it
11 is we ' re looki n g at?
12 A It ' s a standard set of , um, t h e iron handcuffs .
13 Q And, u h , are those the handcuffs? And do they
14 look the same and similar today a s when they were
15 recovered and seized from Mr . Avery's bedroom on
16 the 5th of November?
17 A Yes .
18 Q I show you Exhibit No . 92 . Tell the jury what
19 those are, please?
20 A Set of , um , iron leg irons.
21 Q Once again , uh , Exh ibit No. 92, do those look the
22 same or similar, uh, as t h e day t hat they were
23 received and r ecovered from Mr . Avery's bedroom?
24 A Yes.
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you , Mr. Wiegert .
18
1 Q (By Attorney Kratz ) Now, Mr. Tyson, the, um,
2 search effort, you said , lasted several days?
3 Were you involved, uh , throughout the entire week
4 in these search efforts?
5 A For most of the days, I was on the property. Um, we
6 were searching other residences, uh , outbuildings,

7 um, areas of land , junked cars, automobiles that were
8 parked in certain areas. Urn, so my responsibilities
9 we r e with other officers throughout the week , but we
10 were doing searches of different residences and areas
11 on the property.
12 Q I'm going to show you -- I t hink in front of you ,
13 you have an exhibit, uh, Exhibit No. 88 . Could
14 you look at that, uh , exhibit , please, and tell
15 us what it is?
16 A Evidence photograph of a bleach bottle.
17 Q And do you recognize this particular piece of
18 evidence?
19 A Yes .
20 Q How is it that you recognize it?
21 A This evidence was collected, I believe , on March 1 .
22 Urn, we were executing another search warrant on the

23 property, and this bottle was taken out of the
24 bathroom/laundry area of Steven Avery's, uh,
25 residence.
19
1 Q I know that we're jumping ahead a little bit to
2 March 1. Do you understand that search warrant
3 to have been authorized by a judge, uh, after a
4 statement was given by this defendant, Brendan
5 Dassey?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Were you, specifically, looking for a bleach
8 bottle at t hat time?
9 A Yes . We were given numerous specific items to be
10 looking for . Um, we did the search warrant looking
11 for specifics this time , compared to the time prior .
12 Q Mr. Wiegert's going to hand you Exhibit No . 93 .
13 The -- Perhaps, uh, tell the jury what that is,
14 please?
15 A That would be the bleach bottle taken from the
16 bathroom/laundry area of Steven Avery's residence .
17 Q So it was within his trailer , that is, within his
18 bathroom, that this bleach bottle was found ; is
19 that right?
20 A That 's my understanding . Yes .
21 Q Do you recall, Sergeant Tyson , whether the bleach
22 bottle, uh, was full at the time that you
23 recovered it? Or i s or that it was recovered?
24 A Okay . Like I said, um, Deputy Riemer collected it .
25 My understanding was is that it was empty at the time
20
1 of collection.
2 Q Al l right. Just to go back for just a mome nt
3 about the concept of search teams on the 1st of

4 March, uh, that is, after, uh, Mr . Dassey's
5 statement was made, after a search warrant was
6 authorized , was a search team put together for
7 the trailer of Mr. Avery again?
8 A Yes . I was assigned with Deputy Ric k Riemer and

9 Investigator Wendy Baldwin . Uh , we were sent back
10 into the trailer to execute that warrant .

11 Q Al l right . Move ahead just a couple of days to
12 the , um, 9th -- Wednesday, the 9th of November,
13 um, you were employed on that day?
14 A Yes .
15 Q And could you tell the jury, please , what your
16 duties were on t he 9th of November? This is

17 2005 . I'm sorry.
18 A Okay . I'm trying to think back. Um --
19 Q If I ask you a more specific question, would
20 that
21 A Could you, please?
22 Q help you? Sure . Uh, were you involved at al l
23 in this case in, um, collecting what are called
24 exemplars or standards?
25 A Yes .
21
1 Q And could you tell us, uh, how you were involved
2 in that process?
3 A On the 9th, I was directed by, urn, Agent Fassbender

4 and Investigator Wiegert, was told my responsibility
5 would be to go to the Aurora Medical Clinic in Two
6 Rivers . Uh, I was informed that search warrants were

7 going to be executed on members of the Avery family ,
8 and that they'd be brought to the Aurora Clinic where
9 a physical examination would be done, DNA exemplars
10 would be taken, and my responsibility was to

11 document, photograph, and collect any of the
12 exemplars that were taken by the medical
13 professionals .
14 Q Were one of the individuals brought to the Aurora
15 medical facility, uh , Steven Avery?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did you have occasion to participate in and
18 document a physical examination of Mr . Avery on
20 A Yes.
21 Q And during that physical examination, did you
22 note any, urn, specific, uh , uh, uh, injury or the
23 remnants of any injury at that time?
24 A Yes. Um, his -- it was his middle finger on the

25 right hand . He had a deep laceration.
22
1 Q I'm showing you what's been, uh, marked as
2 Exhibit No. 89. Tell us what we're l ooking at,
3 please?
4 A Yeah. That would be the finger, uh, showing the --
5 the cut to the finger with a scale, uh, for
6 measurement purposes.
7 Q This was a photograph that you took?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Recognizing that you a r e not a, uh, uh -- a
10 medical professional -- I assume you're not
11 A Correct.
12 Q -- from what I know of you Sergeant Tyson, but
13 the, uh, observations that you made, uh, and the
14 photograph that is a depiction of that injury,
15 that appear to be a significant or a deep cut t o
16 you?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Later that week, in just general terms, could you
19 describe for the jury what your responsibi l iti es
20 were at the Avery salvage property?

21 A At the end of the week we were compl e t ing our
22 searches, and , um, my responsibilities were to assist
23 where needed . I was also requested to videotape the
24 entire property. Um, inside the residences, the
25 whole area, to show exactly how we were leaving the
23
1 property, and to give an idea of what this crime
2 scene all e ntailed.
3 Q The last series of inquiry I believe I have for
4 you, Sergeant Tyson, is after, um, a statement
5 was received by Mr . Dassey
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Objection, Judge . At
7 this point there's been no evidence of any
8 statement in the record.
9 THE COURT : Response?
10 ATTORNEY KRATZ: I could ask him if he
11 knows of the statement by Mr. Dassey. It i sn't
12 for -- isn't the statement, itself . It's just is
13 to establish what this , uh , writer did . It
14 certainly isn't hearsay , Judge.
15 THE COURT: Well, why don ' t you try to lay
16 a foundation , then , for the question.
17 ATTORNEY KRATZ: All right .
18 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Sergeant Tyson, have you
19 been involved in this investigation, that is , the
20 investigation which included Mr. Avery and
21 Mr. Dassey, throughout the entire process?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Uh , were you aware that Mr . Brendan Dassey
24 provided a statement to law enforcement
25 officials? Specifically, Investigator Wiegert
24
1 and Special Agent Fassbender?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you know the date on which that statement was
4 given?
5 A I know it was at the end of February. Maybe the
6 28th. March 1. In that area.
7 Q Thereafter -- Sometime thereafter, were you asked
8 to, um, attempt to obtain, uh, some evidence from
9 a area of, · uh, Teresa Halbach' s SUV?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Could you describe that process for the jury,
12 please?
13 A Sure . Deputy Jeremy Hawkins is also an evidence
14 technician within the Department . He assisted in the
15 processing of a lot of the evidence that we did
16 collect. On April 3 we were requested to go to where
17 we had stored Teresa's vehicle. Uh, Investigator
18 Wiegert and Agent Fassbender had requested that we do
19 DNA swabs of both door handles, interior and
20 exterior, as well as the hood latch to the vehicle,
21 and the battery cables, um, under the hood.
22 Q Directing your attention to the hood latch, and
23 now I'm going to have you look at, uh, Exhibit
24 No. 90, tell us what it is that we're looking at,
25 please?
25
1 A This would be a photograph of the hood latch to
2 Teresa's vehicle .
3 Q And so a jury, urn, member, or all jury members
4 understand, uh , what is a hood latch?
5 A It secures the hood to the vehicle. Locks it in .
6 Q All right . Um, on my vehicle, or at least on
7 most vehicles, there's a -- a release or a button
8 on the inside of the - - the vehicle. Are you
9 familiar with those?
10 A Yes .
11 Q But is there another safety feature or an
12 additional latch that's usually on a hood?
13 A Yes . And that would be the hood latch.
14 Q All right . Did you, again , personally swab, uh,
15 or, uh , collect possible DNA material from Teresa
16 Halbach's hood latch?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Would you describe for the jury that process
19 please? How was that done?
20 A Sure. When you swab for any type of DNA evidence ,
21 you have a cotton tip applicator, kind of like a big
22 Q-tip . Urn, you have dis tilled water. And the tip is
23 sterile as we ll . So you're taking it from a fresh
24 package .
25 Um, you take your distilled water, you
26
1 would -- not touching the cotton tip applicator ,
2 but you would drop two to t hree drops of this
3 water onto the cotton tip applicator . You then
4 take tha t appl icator and swab the area in which
5 you were interested in .
6 Q Could you point to the large screen , please , and
7 tell the jury where it was that you swabbed?
8 That is, what a rea of the hood latch was, um,
9 swabbed by this applicator?
10 A Sure . This area right in here.
11 Q I ' m going to have Mr. Wiegert show you , uh,
12 wha t 's been ma rked for identi fication as Exhibit
13 No . 94 . Because it contains biological material ,
14 I 'm not going to have you open it, but I would
15 ask you, if you're able to , identify Exhibit No .
16 94?
17 A Yes . It 's got , um, the evidence tag on that I
18 personally wrote out, and it states it contains the
19 swab containing possible DNA evidence .
20 Q From?
21 A From the hood latch of Teresa's vehicle .
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ : If I could have just a
23 moment , Judge ? Judge, I would move the admiss i on
24 of exhibits , I thi nk it's 79 through 94 , at this
25 time , and I have no further questions of Sergeant
27
1 Tyson . Than k you .
3 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: What was No . 90?

4 THE COURT: Numbe r 90 i s a photo of a hood
5 latch of the , uh , Hal bach veh icle.
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No objection .

7 THE COURT: All right . They ' re received .
8 Cross ?
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 Q Officer , you i ndicated that you are currently in

12 a position of -- like a s upervisory role with the
13 Sheriff's Department?
14 A That ' s corr ect .

15 Q And you indicated that you had been trained back
16 in 1984 as an evidence tech?

17 A Nineteen ninety-four . Correct .
18 Q Nineteen ninety-four?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Okay . Have you had any , uh , follo w-up training

21 or primers since 1994?
22 A Maybe in 1995 , ' 96 , ' 97 , in t he early stages , um,
23 some upd ates . Photography , t h ings like that . But ,
24 no, most of my training now would consist of
25 supervisory training .
28
1 Q Between 1994 and now, did the , uh -- was the
2 majority of your duties or your responsibilities
3 involving evidence tech, or evidence collecting,

4 or was it general police duties?
5 A The majority of my responsibilities are general
6 police duties. Uh, if we have a crime that occurred

7 in the county, um, I could be dispatched to that.
8 You know, there's five officers in our Department at
9 that time that were evidence technicians. If I was
10 on duty, or even if I was not on duty, I could get a
11 call at my house to come out to process that scene.

12 So if we had a crime, yeah, we would have to respond
13 to it.
14 Q Did this training consist of a couple of classes
15 at the Fox Valley Tech, or like a week-long
16 training somewhere?
17 A It was a week-long training class held by Mi ke
18 Campbell. He was an officer to the Milwaukee Police

19 Department . He put on the training. I think it was
20 at Lakeshore Technical College, and it was -- I
21 believe it was one full week.

22 Q So something locally?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, your first duty involved in this
25 investigation was, uh, my understanding, um , to
29
1 secure the RAV 4; is that correct?
2 A Correct .
3 Q Did you do any processing of any evidence at the
4 scene of the RAV 4?
5 A No, I did not.
6 Q I -- I don't want mini miz e your ro le , it ' s --
7 but , essentially , you just stood wa tch of the
8 vehicle?
9 A Correct . Initial ly , I was -- you know, make sure
10 nobody got near the vehicle , nobody touched the
11 vehicle. Uh, due to incl ement weather -- We had a
12 storm t hat was approach i ng . Um, Agent Fassbender wa s
13 on location with , I think, ot her DC I officers , and ,
14 you know, we were taki ng measures to make sure t hat
15 no evidence that was possibly on the e xterior of the
16 vehi cle would be des troyed with the incoming storm .
17 So they had , um, gone and gotten a tarp
18 and very carefu lly , uh, t ried to pro tect the
19 vehicle from the elements that were approaching
20 as there was a mist in the air, rain was coming .
21 Um, so they were doing that type of stuff .
22 Q Once your role as securit y or securing the , uh --
23 the vehicle was completed, were you i nvo lved in
24 process i ng any of that scene?
25 A With the RAV 4?
30
1 Q Correct.
2 A No, I was not.
3 Q So -- so the next role or duty within this
4 i nvestigation would have been when you were
5 a ssigned to a search team to search the trailer
6 of Steven Avery?
7 A There we re a few things I did prior to the execution
8 of the search warrant at Steve's trailer. Um, you
9 know, we had K-9s o n the property tha t were searching
10 the area. So when the K-9 handler showed up, I
11 directed officers to go with the K-9 officers that
12 were there with t hei r dogs, and, um, documented times
13 of arriving on scene, time they completed, who they
14 were with , what areas they searched, things like
15 that .
16 Q You didn't just sit around? You're doing work?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Okay . But your next specialized task would have
19 been to assist i n the search of the Steven Avery
20 trailer?
21 A That ' d be correct .
22 Q How many searches of that trailer were you
23 involved in?
24 A One search that night. I was sent back in , I
25 believe, on the 7th of Novemb er , um, to get a serial
31
1 number and a model number off of a computer .
2 Technically, that would be a search. So -- But that
3 was our only responsibili ties that day was to get the
4 serial number off the computer and the model number
5 for Investigator Wiegert .
6 Q Prior to entering the , uh, trailer when you did
7 the initial search, not -- not the second one
8 when you went through it to get some mode l
9 numbers, did you -- you indicated that your role
10 was essentially to oversee , wat c h, and take
11 notes?
12 A Yes .
13 Q Did you first go through , videotape o r photograph
14 the entire res i dence , to memorialize wha t it
15 loo ked like prior to the scene? To -- to the
16 search?
17 A Yes . Um, for example , um, Detective Remiker had a

18 digital camera and Sergeant Col born had a 35mm
19 evidence camera . Both of them, before we even
20 started anything , photographed t he entire interior of
21 the residence before any searching had begun .

22 Q Now, you indicated this i s kind of a small
23 trailer?
24 A Yes .
25 Q Would it be f air to say that it would be best in
32
1 the small setting to have as few people in there?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And and do you think that you had too many,
4 not enough, just e nough searchers of the
5 residence?
6 A I found it to be adequate. You know, it was hard in

7 certain areas because it was small and confined . Um,
8 but we were, you know , in hallways, in -- in rooms ,
9 and, um, it was adequate, I would say .
10 Q When they did the search, since your were ,
11 obviously, you indicated , trying to monitor or

12 take notes of each individual -- other three
13 i ndividuals searching, did they -- d id you
14 basically go through it methodically one room at

15 a time, or did everyone just go off on their own
16 and you'd tried to follow them around?
17 A Well, we started out in Steve's bedroom. Urn, after a

18 period of time, you know, like, Lieutenant Lenk had
19 told me, he said, I'm going to start just looking in
20 the bathroom for anything obvious. So I relocated my
21 position into the hallway . I could see , um ,
22 Investigator Lenk, I could see Sergeant Colborn, um,

23 on this side of the -- the bedroom. I would -- could
24 watch Lieutenant Lenk. He was in the bathroom. But
25 it was confined to that area . Nobody was allowed to
33
1 just wander about the residence, you know.
2 Q So there were times when they were in two
3 different rooms? A bathroom and a bedroom
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- for instance? You commented, um, t hat it 's
6 important to change the gloves as items are
7 handled?
8 A Yes .
9 Q Is it just any item or just items that have
10 evidentiary value?
11 A We look at it , you know, on scene. Um, we're looking
12 for major e vidence, things like that . We' re not
13 going to touch one thing and then change gloves every
14 single time we touch something. But if it's
15 evidentiary in nature, we suspect it might b e
16 evidentiary in nature , yes.
17 Q Is -- is it possible for DNA to be transferred,
18 though , from touching some items that might have
19 DNA that maybe you didn't find to have
20 evidentiary value, and then touching something
21 that you e nd up seizing?
22 A Sure .
23 Q And that could have happe ned? You don' t know
24 that?
25 A In something specific?
34
1 Q I'm just asking in general.
2 A Oh , sure.
3 Q If you're not changing your gloves every time you
4 touch something, t hat could happen?
5 A Right .
6 Q If --
7 A Right . It 's not something that you're looking at to
8 be evidentiary, you move onto the next item. Sure.
9 Q But each time you found a -- an important item,
10 you would change your gloves?
11 A The officers would , yeah . I wasn't specifically
12 handling the evide nce that night .
13 Q I'm sorry . I mean t -- I guess I meant
14 col loquially with you - -
15 A Yes .
16 Q -- all .
17 A Yes .
18 Q The other three?
19 A Sure.
20 Q Okay . Now -- And , again, you're testifying about

21 what some of the other officers found . One of
22 the officers found the handcuffs, and I'm -- I'm
23 going to imagine t h at -- maybe I'm - - didn't hear
24 you say it, and the leg irons together in the
25 bookshelf?
35
1 A Yes .
2 Q Okay. Were they just lyi ng on the bookshelf?
3 A I did not see the location inside the shelf . I was
4 standing to the side. He pulled them out and was
5 showing me what he was locating . I was documenting.
6 So where, exactly? Um, they were -- they were on top
7 of each other? Or right next to each other? That I
8 do not know .
9 Q Let me ask you this, if you know the answer, why
10 did you take the handcuffs and the leg irons?
11 A The deputies at that time thought it was potentially
12 something that could be evidentiary.
13 Q But you left the guns?
14 A The guns were left in the gun rack .
15 Q You didn't think that guns might be evidentiary?
16 A We figured they probably would, but looking at the
17 circumference of what we were supposed to do, um,
18 they left them.
19 Q When the bleach bottle was -- Now , this was in a
20 separate search; correct? When --
21 A Yes .
22 Q -- you found that bleach bottle?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Excuse me. Did you -- Again , your role at that
25 time was the same as before? To document and
36
1 monitor?
2 A That warrant I was more involved with the actual
3 searching. Investigator Baldwin was more the one
4 assigned to documenting and note taking.
5 Q So you would have been the one who actually
6 physically collected the bot -- bleac h bottle?
7 A I was not . Um , Officer Riemer was the one who
8 actually sei zed it.
9 Q And, again , you're wearing gloves --
10 A Yes .
11 Q -- at this time? Um , did you process that to
12 determine if there were any fingerprints on it?
13 Or is that somebody else's j ob?
14 A That was also my responsibility at a later time .
15 Deputy Hawkins and myself were assigned to the duties
16 of processing what we had collected from the scene .
17 So, yes, t hat bottle was processed.
18 Q Okay . So when you process it and try to extract
19 fingerprints , then is that sent off to the Crime
20 Lab for , uh , some sort o f , uh, review to
21 determine whether or not it matches anyone?
22 A Our focus for the bleach bottle was not so much
23 fingerprint s. Because it was i n , uh, Steve's
24 traile r, uh , we assumed his fingerprints would be on
25 it . We were looking more for any type of DNA
37
1 evidence, um, blood, or anything like that .
2 Q But you didn't check to see if someone else's
3 fingerprints were on it?
4 A We did not check it fo r fingerprints . We were
5 specifically looking for DNA .
6 Q When you were -- You were involved, you
7 indicated , with the second time the RAV 4 was
8 processed . And I guess I shouldn't say second.
9 It may have been processed a number of times . As
10 far as your involvement , you were involved the
11 first time with securing the RAV 4 --
12 A Yes .
13 Q -- correct? And the second time with obtaining
14 some, uh, uh, swabs of the hood latch?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Do you know how many times the vehicle had been
17 opened and closed in between those two times?
18 A It came from the Crime Lab . Um, it was secured in
19 the storage facility . I don't know exactly the
20 answer to that question, no .
21 Q So you don't know what the Crime Lab did to the
22 vehicle?
23 A I have no idea what the Crime Lab did to that
24 vehicle .
25 Q And when you swabbed the latch, the onl y -- you
38
1 indicated you swabbed the -- looks like it -- the
2 hood was down, the part that you would -- would
3 be facing towards the ground ; correct?
4 A Yeah . The part t hat you would commonly use your
5 fin ger to pull up on to unlatch the hood the hood.
6 Q Did you swab just above the -- the latch as well?
7 Or just that lower portion of the latch?
8 A I believe I did the lower part and I did all the way
9 around that . Just did the e n tire latch, itself .
10 Q Okay . So the entire latch?
11 A Yeah .
12 Q Did you, uh , swab the interior release? Hood
13 re l ease .
14 A No, I did not .
15 Q Was it because you weren ' t told to or didn't
16 think about doing it?
17 A Um, we weren ' t instructed to do that. I don't know
18 what was done before that . Urn , our focus was the
19 hood latch and othe r specific areas .
20 Q Was it just one swab that you
21 A Yes .
22 Q Okay. So you didn ' t have to change your gloves
23 then?
24 A I changed gloves from the time that I swabbed the
25 door handles to the time that I went and did the hood
39
1 latch.
2 Q When you opened the -- the hood latch, did you
3 change gloves before you swabbed or you used the
4 same gloves that you, uh, opened the hood l atch?
5 A I think it was one process. You know, I probably
6 released it , had the cotton applicator, and
7 immediately d id the swabbing of the hood latch .
8 Q Thank you.
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Nothing else, Judge .
10 THE COURT : Any redirect, Counsel?
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ : That's all for this
12 witness. Thank you .
13 THE COURT : You may step down.
14 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State would call Agent
15 Kevin Heimerl to the stand .
16 THE CLERK : Please raise your right hand .
17 KEVIN HEIMERL,

'
22 THE WITNESS: Kevin Heimerl, H-e -i-m-e -r-1.
25 Q Good morning, Mr. Heimerl. Could you tell the
40
1 jury, please , how you're employed?
2 A I'm employed with the Wisconsin Department of
3 Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation .
4 Q And what are your duties with the Department of
5 Justice?
6 A I'm assigned to the Arson Bureau . It's -- My primary
7 assignment is to investigate fires . Um, but my
8 duties also include assisting other bureaus within
9 our agency in o t her types of investigations .
10 Q In that second rega r d , that i s, assisting other
11 agencies , were you asked on , um , November 5 and ,
12 uh, times after November 5 , 2005 to assist in the
13 investigation surroun ding the death of Teresa
14 Halbach?
15 A Yes , I was .
16 Q Tell the jury, please , how you first became
17 involved in this investigation?
18 A On , uh , Sunday, I believe it was November 6 , I was
19 contacted at my residence , um, by Special Agent
20 Fassbender , I believe, and was asked to respond to
21 Manitowoc County to assist with the investigation,
22 which I did . And I arrived in the early morning
23 hours .
24 Q How was it that you first assisted in the
25 investigation?
41
1 A I responded to t he command post on Avery Road, uh,
2 and met with Special Agent Fassbender, and
3 Investigator Wiegert, and other investigators. Uh ,

4 received a briefing , um , as to what information had
5 been obta ined at that point, what some of the goals

6 of the investigation were, and some of the activities
7 that were taking place at the scene. I was then --
8 My initial assignment was to respond into t he city of
9 Manitowoc to conduct an interview with a citizen .
10 Q Agent Heimerl, of the seven or eight days of
11 that , officers were involved in the, uh, search

12 of -- at least the initial search of the Avery
13 salvage property, how many of those days were you
14 involved in those efforts?

15 A I was involved in the, uh, initial investigation at
16 the scene for approximately the first week. Um, the
17 majority of my time was spent conducting a

18 neighborhood canvass, uh, of the area .
19 Q What is a neighborhood canvass?
20 A A neighborhood canvass is simply, um, going out and

21 trying to make personal face to face contact with all
22 individuals that reside i n the immediate vicinity of
23 the crime, um, or people that may work at businesses
24 or locations in the immediate vicinity, um, and
25 interviewing them and asking them if they have made
42
1 any observations , seen or heard anything that they
2 feel, or that investigators feel , may be somehow
3 related to the i nvestigation .
4 Q Directing your attention , then , to , urn, the 7th,
5 that would be Monday, the 7th of November, were
6 you involved in, and did you participate in,
7 search efforts of the Avery salvage property?
8 A Yes . I was assigned to , um, assist with t he recovery
9 of some evidence .
10 Q Describe for the -- Well, I ' m going to have you
11 look at, uh , a photograph, Exhibit No . 95. Te ll
12 the jury what it is that Exhibit No . 95 is?
13 A It 's a photograph of a steel burn barrel. It was
14 found in the , uh , front yard area of Steven Avery's
15 residence.
16 Q And could you tell me where the burn barrel was
17 located , please?
18 A The gravel driveway that you , um, see in the
19 background behind the barrel , uh, is the access
20 roadway , or a driveway to provide access to Steven
21 Avery's trailer and his detached garage. This barrel
22 is north of that driveway , urn, and Steven Avery's
23 trailer and garage are south of the driveway and to
24 the right of the barrel as you're looking at the
25 photograph .
43
1 Q Before you 're completed , uh, Agent Heimerl, we'll
2 look at some, um, computer-generated images . But
3 as long as we're on, uh, this photo, uh, could
4 you tell us, uh, what it is that we're looking at
5 and what's located outside of, uh, this
6 particular barrel ? You might have a laser

7 pointer up there if that's going to help you .
8 A Is it most convenient if I use the pointer ?

9 Q I think -- Yeah.
10 A Uh, to the right of the barrel is, uh, a steel rim
11 from a motor vehicle tire or wheel.

12 Q Did you have occasion , after , um, this particular
13 burn barrel was turned over for your processing,
14 to view the interior of the barrel?

15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Okay . I'm going to show you what's been marked
17 as Exhibit No. 96 . Tell us what, uh, we're
18 looking at , please?
19 A I t's a photograph of the interior of the barrel, um,
20 obviously looking down through the open top of it,
21 um, and burned debris and so forth inside the barrel .
22 Q Now, when you looked into the interior of the
23 burn barrel , uh, just through your training and
24 experience as a law enforcement officer, and
25 especially with your arson , um, training and
44
1 experience , were you able to , uh , make any
2 conclusions or i denti fications at that time?
3 A When I looked int o t he barrel, um, and without
4 disturbing anythi ng , I -- it was a apparent that ,
5 um , all of t h e mate ri al in the barrel had been
6 involved in a fire . That a fired had occurred in the
7 barrel . Um , but I did recognize , um , non-combustible
8 items, metal obj ects , and what appeared to be
9 possibly glass objects insi de the barrel within this
10 debris .
11 In particular, um , I observed one item
12 that appeared to b e , um , a panel or a cover for a
13 Motorola electronic device .
14 Q After maki ng these observa t ions, uh , Agent
15 Heimerl , what did you do?
16 A I fully documented , uh, this scene through
17 photographs , um, and , ul timately , the barrel and its
18 contents were turn ed over to the custody of evidence
19 technicians that were assisting with the
20 investigation .
21 Q Um, sometime later , t hat is , uh , sometime after
22 the 7th of November , we re you involved in further
23 processing of this barrel? Or was , i n fact ,
24 that , um, assignment given to somebody else?
25 A Uh , that assignment was given to others, um, besides
45
1 myself. I was not involved in that process .
2 Q You are familiar , are you not, with the
3 processing of the barrel and what was found

4 inside of it?
5 A Yes, I am.
6 Q I'm going to have you look at Exhibit No. 97.

7 Show that to the jury. Tell us wha t it is that
8 we're looking at , please?
9 A This is a photograph of, uh , components for three
10 electronic devices that were ultimately recovered
11 from that burn barrel , um, either by, uh , Crime Lab
12 analysts with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab , or , um,
13 the Federal Bureau of Invest igation .
14 Q So these items were examined by, not onl y our
15 State Crime Lab, but also were sent to Virginia
16 to the FBI; is that right?
17 A That 's my understanding, yes .
18 Q And Exhibit No. 97 i s the totality, that is , all
19 of the, uh, electronics as laid out on a table
20 from your understanding; is that right?
22 Q I'm going to jump ahead , uh, just a minute a nd
23 hand you what's been marked as Exhibit No . 115 .
24 Tell us what Exhibit No. 115 is, please?
25 A This is a report , a two- page report, of examination
46
1 completed by, uh , Mr . Curtis Thomas of the Federal
2 Bureau of Investigation's laboratory. He is in a
3 unit assigned to the Cryptographic and Electronic
4 Analysis .
5 Q All right . Do you know what that means?
6 A Well, from the title , I, uh , can surmise that it

7 involves the analysis of electronic devices and, uh ,
8 other things .
9 Q All right .
10 A That's not my specialty.
11 Q In that regard, though , and, um, in, uh, your
12 review of Exhibit No. 115, the FBI report, was
13 Mr. Thomas able to positively identify these
14 electronic components that are, um, uh, shown in
15 the photograph in Exhibit No. 97?
16 A Yes, he was .
17 Q Uh, we'll talk about the individual, um, uh ,
18 findings through some other photos, but, uh, if
19 you could tell the jury, uh , what Mr . Thomas'
20 findings were?
21 A Mr. Thomas was able to conclude that the components,
22 um, depicted in the photograph, all came from the
23 three electronic devices, which he was able to
24 identify as a Canon A310 PowerShot digital camera, a
25 Motorola RAZR cellular telephone, and a Palm Zire 31
47
1 PDA .
2 Q Let's go through those, uh , one at a time then .
3 I'm going to show you Exhibit No . 98. Tell us
4 what we're looking at, please?
5 A This is a closer photograph of one of those
6 components, which happens to be the front cover plate
7 for a Motorola cellular telephone .
8 Q And just so the jury understands, t hese are
9 close-up photographs of the items that were
10 recovered , processed, and eventually identified
11 from that burn barrel outside of Mr. Avery's, uh,
12 trailer; is that correct?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q Uh, the FBI was able to compare some of these
15 components to what a new, or a, uh, identical
16 model Motorola V3 RAZR phone looked like? Is
17 that your understanding?
18 A Yes .
19 Q I show you what's been received -- excuse me
20 marked as Exhibit No . , um, 99. Tell us what that
21 is, please?
22 A This is a photograph of two components . The one on
23 the left being the same component we saw in the
24 previous exhibit , the front cover plate for that
25 Motorola RAZR cellular telephone, and it's next to an
48
1 exemplar telephone of the same, uh, brand and model .
2 Q All right . Basically, to s how the jury where
3 that component comes from on a, uh, a -- a
4 non-damaged or non-burned phone; is that right?
5 A Correct .
6 Q Exhibit 100?
7 A Again, this is another comparison photograph, um, of
8 the damaged component that was recovered from the
9 burn barrel next to an exemplar of the Motorola RAZR
10 phone .
11 Q These were -- To your understanding, they're
12 prepared by the FBI ; is that right?
13 A Correct .
14 Q And, finally , uh , Exhibit No . 101?
15 A Again, this is a demon -- a demonstration photo with
16 the , uh , component on the left being the fire
17 damaged , um, keypad plate, if you will, for the
18 corresponding, um, Motorola cellular phone . Again,
19 the object on the left was recovered from the burn
20 barrel .
21 Q This same process , that is, the identification
22 process , occurred with the , urn , camera that was
23 recovered from Mr . Avery's burn barrel? That is,
24 the Canon, uh , PowerShot A310? I think you
25 testified to that . But I'm going to show you
49
1 Exhibit No . 102. Tell us what we ' re looking at,
2 please?
3 A That is a photograph of one of the components for
4 that Canon A310 PowerShot digital camera, and, uh ,
5 the etched or, um, embossed wording, uh, is visible
6 and ides -- identifies it as a PowerShot A310.

7 Q As I zoom in, you probably don't have to be an
8 expert to do this , but you can see it says
9 PowerShot A310 ; is that right?
11 Q Agent Heimerl, t hroughout the, um, search of this
12 property, um, and throughout , uh , the
13 investigation , were you asked on occasion to
14 assist in post-recovery analysis? That is,
15 analysis of items that had been recovered from
16 the Avery property?
17 A Yes, I was .
18 Q Specifically, the - - what ' s been, um, referred to
19 as the burn area or the burn pit behind
20 Mr . Avery's garage, were you at some point asked
21 to assist in the sorting or sifting process, uh,

22 of those items?
23 A Yes, I was .
24 Q Could you describe that process for the jury,
25 please?
50
1 A During the initial week of the on-scene
2 investigation , other investigators recovered a large
3 amount of burned debris and material from locations
4 on the Avery property . Specifically, um, a large
5 burn pit or burn area directly behind Steven Avery's
6 residence, um, and, it's my understanding, as well as
7 other areas where burned debris had been found.
8 Um, in addition t o t hat, several burn
9 barrels , to include the one from the front yard
10 of Steven Avery's residence, were recovered from
11 the scene , and removed from the scene , and all of
12 this material was initially taken to the Calumet
13 County Sheriff's Department .
14 Subsequent to that , the burned debris
15 and material, um , underwent a very detailed
16 examination to attempt to recover any other
17 potential evidence from that material .
18 Q What kind of evidence was, uh, law enforcement
19 looking for at that time?
20 A We, myself and other investigators, were looking for ,
21 number one, any, um, items that we readily recognized
22 or believed could be human remains . Uh, other
23 materials that we felt may have , um , been related to
24 clothing or electronic devices . Um, we were looking
25 for potential weapons, um, bul let fragments , bul l et
51
1 casings, any items that we felt may be relevant to
2 the death of Teresa Halbach .
3 Q This process, this sifting and sorting process,
4 um, I'm just going to show you Exhibit, uh, No .
5 103. First of all , tell us what it is that we're
6 looking at?
7 A This is a photograph that was taken in the basement
8 of t he Wisconsin Stat e Crime Lab in Mad ison .
9 Q And what, uh -- what does i t depict? And if you
10 need to use the laser pointer, go ahead.
11 A This de -- depicts, um , basical l y, the process or the
12 system, um, that we implemented to begin examining
13 this debri s. And this examination occurred over the
14 course of f our days. The first two days in Madison
15 at this location , and the following two days in Apri l
16 of 2006 at the Sheriff ' s Department in Calumet
17 County .
18 And, uh, wha t we had, um -- The -- the
19 indivi duals in this photograph include
20 Investigator Wiegert, myself, Special Agent
21 Pevytoe, and , I believe, uh , the individual in
22 the back may be, uh, Special Agent Holmes or
23 Special Agent Sielehr with DC!, but on this
24 occasion in Madison what we did was we happened
25 to utilize, um , sections of scaffolding, that
52
1 happened to be in the basement, because of
2 certain rem remodeling that was occurring, and
3 they proved to be very suitable for our process.
4 We would raise the scaffold planking or
5 table, if you will, to approximately waist to
6 chet -- chest height, so it made it, uh, more
7 conducive to standing and working, um, in close
8 eyesight. They were covered with tarps. We had
9 supplemental lighting .
10 And the process included bringing a
11 small quantity of debris onto the table in front
12 of you, and utilizing a variety of tools or
13 instruments, such as wooden skewers, or wooden
14 picks, um, maybe putty knives or brushes. We
15 would very thinly and finely layer out the the
16 debris, and this debris includes soil, um, and
17 sand, and burned ash and non-burned, or, um,
18 burned non-combustible items .
19 We would layer it out and sift it, if --
20 if you will, but not with sifting screens, but,
21 visually, examine it very closely and pick out
22 items that we felt may be human remains, bone
23 material, uh, potentially denta l remains, and
24 other non-curnbustible items, metal items that
25 were left behind in attempt to determine what
53
1 they were, and if they were relevant to what we
2 were looking for .
3 Q Do you know an individual by the name of
4 Dr . Leslie Eisenberg?
5 A Yes, I do .
6 Q Who is that?
7 A Dr . Eisenberg is a forensic anthropologist with the
8 state of Wisconsin .
9 Q Is Dr. Eisenberg involved in this process?
10 A Yes, she was.
11 Q Could you describe -- and we'll hear from
12 Dr . Eisenberg later this week -- but can you
13 describe how she may have been involved in
14 overseeing this process with law en forcement?
15 A She was present with us on the first day in December
16 of 2005 in Madison at the Crime Laboratory, and was
17 involved in, uh, the planning, if you will, and the
18 im -- implement ation of this process and assisted
19 alongside of us in going through the same procedure.
20 Urn, and if an investigator were to

21 recover an item that t hey felt was potentially,
22 uh, bone fragments , she was there and available
23 to make a better determination if it was or if it
24 was not .
25 Q You talked about , uh, bone and other items of
54
1 evidentiary value. Did those include any metal
2 items?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And could you describe that for the jury , please?
5 A There were numerous metal items that were found among
6 this debris, and that included , uh, ammunition

7 casings, um, miscellaneous items of steel, um, steel
8 belt ing from tires. Um, in particular, I recall
9 there was a zipper pull recovered. There were
10 clothing rivets recovered. Batteries. Um, quite a
11 wide variety of materials.

12 Q The clothing rivets, uh, specifically -- I'm
13 going to show you Exhibit No. 104. Ask you to
14 tell the jury what it is that we're looking at?
15 A This is a close-up photograph of a clothing rivet,
16 which is identified, um, through stamping on the head
17 of the rivet with the name Daisy Fuentes .
18 Q Were you involved i n the recovery of any of these
19 Daisy Fuentes clothing rivets from , uh, this
20 sifting process?
21 A Yes, I was.
22 Q Are you aware of how many Daisy Fuentes rivets
23 were recovered throughout the entire process?
24 A There were five of these same rivets recovered .
25 Q I'm going to have Mr. Wiegert show you, uh, just
55
1 as an example , what's been marked as Exhibit No.
2 112 . Ask you to tell the jury what that is,
3 please?
4 A This is one of those rivets, as identified i n this
5 photograph, that was recovered from that burned
6 debris .
7 Q Repackage it . Thank you. Mr., uh -- Or Agent
8 Heimerl, on March 1 of 2006 , were you made aware
9 of the application and receipt of a search
10 warrant for not only the residence, but the
11 garage of Steven Avery?
12 A Yes, I was.
13 Q Tell the jury how, if at all, you were involved
14 in the execution of that search warrant?
15 A On the afternoon of March 1 , or in the morning hours,
16 I was contacted by Special Agent Fassbender, and
17 informed that additional information had been
18 gathered or gained through the ongoing i nvestigation,
19 uh, which included statements from Brendan Dassey,
20 and as a result of those statements, i nvestigators,
21 um, sought and received a search warrant to return to
22 Steven Avery's residence a nd garage to look for and
23 potentially collect any additional evidence that
24 investigators felt may be present as a result of this
25 new information .
56
1 Q Could you first describe for the jury an overview
2 of the garage? What was it that you saw upon
3 your arrival on the 1st of March? And, by t he,
4 way, thi s was, uh, later -- uh, l ate r on? Early
5 evening? That is, after Mr. Dassey made his
6 statement? Is that your understanding?
7 A That's correct . Uh, investigators arrived at the
8 property in the late afternoon hours . I believe
9 approximately 4 to 4:30 p.m . Um, the investigators
10 were divided into two separate teams, if you will.
11 Uh, one team was responsible for
12 conducting the search of Steven Avery's
13 residence. The second team, which I was a part
14 of, was assigned to conduct the search of the
15 detached garage .
16 When we arrived , um, initially, I
17 photographed the exterior of the garage. I noted
18 that the personnel door, um , the walk-through
19 door on the north side of the garage, was locked
20 with a padlock . We made arrangements to make
21 entry into the garage by cutting that padlock.
22 When that was completed, uh, the first
23 thing that was done was the interior of the
24 garage was videotaped . Um, on that day there
25 was, uh , snow on the ground . A relatively good
57
1 quantity of snow. The overhead garage door was
2 ultimately opened. Um, there was a passenger
3 vehicle that was found parked inside the garage.
4 And after the videotaping was completed,
5 I then , um, conducted photography of the entire
6 interior of the garage, uh, just documenting in
7 an overview fashion of the -- what the interior
8 of the ga r age looked like.
9 We then, basically, um -- four
10 investigators that were present, uh, which
11 included myself, Investigator John Dedering from
12 Calumet County, Inve stigator Gary Steier of
13 Calumet County, um, and, eventually, Detective
14 Dave Remiker of Manitowoc County , assumed, um,
15 general responsibilities as working as this as
16 this team, and came up with a -- a plan, if you
17 will, uh, or objectives as to how we were going
18 to go about searching the garage.
19 Q I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 105, and ask
20 you if you can describe what it is that we're
21 looking at here?
22 A This is a photograph of the interior of Steven
23 Avery's garage, obviously with the overhead garage
24 door open. Uh, as I took this photograph, I was
25 standing north of the front of the garage in front of
58
1 the overhead garage door. This was taken at a point
2 in the evening in which we had done a cursory search,
3 if you will, of the interior of the garage, looking
4 for any readily recognizable items of evidence that
5 we knew, based on Brendan Dassey's statements, that
6 we should be looking for.
7 Some of those had been ad -- identified.
8 Um, the vehicle has been removed at the, uh, time
9 of this photograph, and we have identified with
10 some of these yellow photographic markers,
11 numbered markers, um, the location of some items
12 of evidence t hat had been found to that point.
13 Q Had you been informed, and was one of the items
14 that you were looking for in this, uh, garage,
15 uh, a item of, uh, paint thinner?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Let me show you what ' s been marked as Exhibit No.
18 106. Ask you if you can tell me what we're
19 looking at here, please?
20 A This is a photograph of a plastic bottle or jug of
21 paint thinner that was found on the workbench at the
22 rear or south side of the garage in a central area of
23 the south wall.
24 Q Was another specific item that you were looking
25 for and, uh, included, um, in Mr. Dassey's
59
1 statement, something called a roller creeper?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And can you tell the jury, and those jurors that
4 may not know what that is , what is a roller
5 creeper?
6 A I don't have much experience in the automotive work,

7 but I understand a roller creeper is a piece of
8 equipment that, um, if you will, is a bench, a padded
9 bench often, um, that rests on wheels to allow a
10 person to lay on their back on this bench and roll
11 themse lves underneath a motor vehicle so they can
12 conduct work on the under -- underside of the
13 vehicle .
14 Q Were you abl e to locate a roller creeper within
15 Mr. Avery's garage?
16 A Yes, we did .
17 Q Let me show you what has been marked as Exhibit
18 No. 107. Tell us what we're looking at, please?
19 A That is a photograph of a roller creeper with the
20 name, uh, labeled on the face of it as a Black Jack
21 brand creeper. This was found in this location which
22 is, um, in the central area of the south wall,
23 basically in the middle of the garage, all the way at
24 the rear of the garage .
25 Q Just so that before I leave this photo, just to
60
1 the right of the roller creeper is a green object
2 that has some wheels on it. Do you know what
3 that is?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q What is that?
6 A The green cylindrical object, uh, behind and to the
7 right of t he creeper is an air compressor, and it has
8 numerous additional miscellaneous items stacked on
9 top of it .
10 Q Now, the -- I'm going to go back to Exhibit No .
11 105 . When we look at the stuff in that garage
12 during the 1st and 2nd of March, were each of
13 those items removed and thoroughly searched?
14 A Yes, but not - - I don't know if re - - removed is, um,
15 a term I would use . We did not physically remove
16 them from the garage . But
17 Q They -- They are moved?
18 A Yes . Our course of action, uh, beginning on March 1,
19 um, was to physically, visually examine virtually
20 every item wi thin that garage , um, looking for any
21 potential relevance to the investigation based on the
22 statements we had received from Brendan Dassey. Um,
23 examining these items to determine if we could see
24 any visible biological evidence or other f orrns of
25 trace evidence .
61
1 And in doing so, we began at the -- in
2 this photograph, the front left corner , which
3 would have been in the, uh, northeast corner of
4 the garage, and we proceeded sout h along the east
5 wall picking up and moving every object . And in
6 most cases, there were multiple objects stacked
7 on top of, say, a snowmobile or a shelf. Each
8 item was picked up, moved, turned over, examined,
9 and set aside. And we'd move onto the next
10 object.
11 We proceeded south along the east wall
12 to the corner, and then along the south wall, um,
13 from left to right in this photograph, and,
14 ultimately, finishing on t he following day,
15 March 2 , coming up along the west wall.
16 Q Agent Heimerl, once again, based upon statements
17 of Mr. Dassey, uh, were you looking for, and did
18 the search warrant authorize, a search for
19 bullets or bullet fragments?
20 A Yes, it did, and we were looking for those items .
21 Q I'm going to have you, before I leave t his, uh
22 this photograph, point out for the jury, uh,
23 what's called Evidence Tent No. 9 . Could you
24 tell the jury where that's located?
25 A No. 9 is located just behind -- The white is the
62
1 snowbank on the outside of the garage. And just
2 behind there, in the right half of the photograph, is
3 Marker No. 9.
4 Q I show you, now, what has been marked as Exhibit
5 No. 108 . Tell the jury what we're looking at,
6 please?
7 A This is a photograph, again, of, uh, evidence , or
8 Photo Identification Marker No . 9, taken from
9 standing above it . You can see a crack in the
10 concrete traveling right underneath the marker . Just
11 in front of that marke r edge , right where the cursor
12 is now, there 's a s mall, cylindrical , gray object
13 that was ultimately recovered and found to be a
14 bullet, or a portion of a bullet.
15 Q Mr. Wiegert just handed you, also, uh, what's now
16 been, uh, marked as Exhibit No. 114. It's a -- a
17 package, and although it, uh, contains, um , an
18 item of evidentiary value with a biological, or
19 potentially biological, material on it, and I'm
20 not going to ask you to open it, can you tell us
21 what Exhibit 114 is?
22 A This is identified as a bullet fragment, and the date
23 for the recovery is 3/1/06 .
24 Q Is this the bullet fragment t ha t is depicted in
25 Exhibit No . 108, uh, next to, uh, Exhibit -- Tent
63
1 No. 9?
2 A I believe it to be , yes.
3 Q Agent Heimerl, I 1 m now going to show you what has
4 been marked for identification as Exhibit No .
5 109 . Tell us what that is, please?
6 A This is a photograph that was taken on March 2, the

7 second day of our search. From the previous
8 photograph of the overview of the garage that we
9 looked at, um, directly at the back of the garage in
10 the central area of that south wall, we saw the Black
11 Jack creeper and the green air compressor.
12 In that previous photograph, the green
13 air compressor was directly adjacent to the left
14 side of a large rolling tool chest, which we see
15 in the upper right corner of this photograph.
16 The air compressor , and all of the materials were
17 stacked on top, have obviously been removed for
18 this photograph, and Marker No . 23 identifies a
19 bullet which was found under that air compressor
20 near that back wall in the garage.
21 Q I show you, now, Exhibit No . 110 . Tell us what
22 we're looking at here, please?
23 A This is a close-up photograph of that same Marker No.
24 23 . Also, in the photograph, is a -- a scale or a
25 ruler . Between the number four and number five on
64
1 the ruler, just above the edge of the ruler, is a
2 round object which is the bullet that was located
3 underneath the air compressor .
4 Q By the way, this b u llet , uh, that it was next to
5 Tent No. 23, and also the bullet next to Tent No.
6 9, uh, were those recovered by your, um, evidence
7 recovery team and, thereafter, sent to the
8 Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory for further
9 analysis?
10 A Yes, they were .
11 Q Just to complete the discussion of this
12 particular bullet, um, I'm going to show you
13 photograph 111, ask if you ' re able to identify
14 that? And Mr. Wiegert's going to also hand you
15 Exhibit No. 113 to assist you in describing
16 photograph 111 as well.
17 A The photograph is a -- a photograph of the same
18 object, evidence bag that I'm holding, uh, Evidence
19 Tag No . 8623, which i dentifies the contents as a
20 bullet fragment that was collected on March 2, 2006.
21 Q And so tha t the record is clear, the pho t o, uh,
22 of the bullet fragment , what the jury is looking
23 at on their screen , is , uh, Exhibit No. 1 11 . The
24 package, i tself, the bullet , itself, i f you will,
25 is Exhibit No. 113 . Is that your understanding?
65
1 A Yes .
2 Q I'm just going to take a moment to show you a
3 couple of exhibits . This is Exhibit 77 t hat has
4 already been received. I t's a computer-generated
5 image created by Tr ooper Tim Aus t in. Um, does
6 this exhibit assist you, or will it assist you ,

7 in describing for t he j ury where those two
8 bullets were foun d?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Why don't you take your laser pointer and tell
11 the jury?
12 A The first bullet t ha t I described, wh ich was in the
13 crack of the concrete, is in the area of the No . 9
14 marker in t he foreg round of t he garage. The second
15 bullet bul let t hat we just discussed, No. 23
16 marker , was found at the rear , or south side of the
17 garage , d irectly next to the tool chest . Um, I
18 believe the black rectangular object here is meant to
19 depict the location of the creeper . What is not
20 identified in that photograph is the location or the
21 presence of the green air compressor.
22 Q And the last , uh, exhibit that I want to show you
23 has been received as Exhibit No. 67 . Does this
24 contai n the , um, burn barrel , and will this
25 assist you in describing where that was recove red
66
1 and processed by you?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Would you just describe that for us, please?
4 A This is, uh, Steven Avery's trailer . His detached
5 garage. Here's the gravel roadway that I described
6 earlier. And this is the burn barrel that was
7 ultimately recovered that contained the burned
8 electronic components.
9 Q Contained the, um, Motorola, um, V3 RAZR phone,
10 the Canon PowerShot A310 camera , and the Palm
11 Zire 31 PDA . Is that your understanding?
12 A That 's correct.
13 Q And, again, that is ve rified and, um, positively
14 identified by FBI and also Mr . Thomas; is that
15 right?
16 A Correct .
17 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Wi th t hat, Judge, I 'm
18 going to move the admissions of Exhibits 95
19 through 11 4, and I have no further ques tions of
20 Agent Heimerl.
21 THE COURT : All right. Is there any
22 objection to these exhibits?
24 THE COURT : Since there are none, the
25 exhibits will be received. I think, uh, this is an
67
1 appropriate time to take a morning break. We'll
2 take a 15-minute recess .
3 (Recess had at 10:04 a.m . )
4 (Reconvened at 10 :29 a.m.)
5 THE COURT : I think we 've reached the point
6 where this witness is set for cross-examination .
7 Mr . Fremgen ?
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: J udge , I think the
9 State wanted to -- Did -- Di d n' t you want to
10 include 115 in that offer?
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ : We did .
12 THE COURT : Right. Uh , no objection to
13 115 ?
15 THE COURT : Received. Go ahead,
16 Mr . Fremgen .
20 Q Agent Heimerl ; correct?
21 A That ' s correct . Yes . Thank you.
22 Q Okay . You were testifying about the burn barrel
23 in your direct, and I have what's up Uh ,
24 well -- I have up on the screen , again , uh,
25 what ' s been marked as State ' s Exhibit No. 80
68
1 or 95? It 's a photograph of that burn barrel; is
2 that correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q You can see it from there?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Okay. Now this is the barrel you indicated that
7 you first did a visual observation without going
8 into the barrel, itself, and noted metal and
9 glass within the debris?
10 A Yes, I did .
11 Q And you -- I think you indicated you also ,
12 visually , identified the Motorola cell phone?
13 A I could see that component . That cover piece with
14 the very distinctive Motorola "M" on it. And that
15 was on top of the debris. I could see that .
16 Q Okay. Now, looking at that burn barrel, the
17 location is approximately in front of the Avery
18 trailer? Or, I guess, if you want to say , kind
19 of a triangul ar, uh, angle from the trailer and
20 the garage ; correct?
21 A That's correct. It's almost , urn, due north of t he
22 garage and northeast of the trailer.
23 Q So that would be that opening -- the gar -- the
24 actual main entrance of the garage?
25 A Correct .
69
1 Q On the barrel , did -- Can you see from where
2 you're at , or do you have the picture in front of
3 you ?
4 A Both . Correct .
5 Q Okay . Does it appear to have bullet holes in the
6 barrel? I know you're not an expert on -- I'm
7 not asking about your expertise in the area of
8 of, uh, firearms or ammunition, but you're a n
9 off you're an agen t; correct?
10 A Yes, I am .
11 Q You've fired a firearm?
12 A Yes , I have .
13 Q Familiar with what a bullet hole might look like?
14 A Yes .
15 Q Does it appear that -- like it has bullet holes
16 in the barrel?
17 A All I can say is t h at there are circular penetrations
18 in the barrel.
19 Q Okay . And I don't need you to go any further if
20 you don't have ability to tell whether or not
21 that's from a bullet or something else . It ' s
22 a -- but appears to have some sort of c i rcular
23 indentation in the side?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, in the burn area , you actually found shell
70
1 casings; correct?
2 A In the material that came from the burn pit to the
3 burn area, yes, there were ammunition --
4 Q Did you find -- I 'm sorry.
5 A There were am -- ammunition casings found .
6 Q Did you find the same in -- when you sifted
7 through the barrel?
8 A I did not, um, examine the debris from the barrel.
9 From this barrel.
10 Q So someone else sifted through the burn barrel?
12 Q Your observations were just visual?
13 A Of what?
14 Q The burn barrel.
16 Q When you sifted, did you -- through the burn
17 area, now. We ' re beyond the burn barrel. Did
18 you actually set up the procedure for sifting
19 through that burn area?
20 A I did not. It was, uh, um Special Agent Pevytoe
21 had an idea in his mind as to what procedure he
22 wanted to follow. He presented that to those of us
23 that were there, and we all agreed that that was a --
24 appeared to be a sound and good procedure to follow .
25 Q Now, you indicate that your primary expertise
71
1 with the -- with the DCI would be in arson
2 investigati ons?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q So you're familiar with going through, um,
5 charred remains like, for instance, buildings?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Urn, would a burn area like this be unusual for
8 you in your investigation experti -- or, uh,
9 experience?
10 A Uh, no, it wouldn't. In fact, I've participated in
11 examinations of, urn, burn areas or burn pit areas , if

12 you will, on at least one other occasion looking for ,
13 urn, similar types of evidence.
14 Q When you set up the investigation, or the actual
15 sifting, then , through this burn area, did you
16 set it up where you, uh , indicated some sort of
17 grid-like , um, procedure so you could identify
18 what location items had been taken out of, or
19 boxed, when you were digging out and putting it
20 into something to take back to the Crime Lab?
21 A You maybe misunderstood, only because it was not -- I
22 don't think I was asked earlier, but to clarify, when

23 the material, and burn debris, and soil, and materia l
24 was removed from the burn pit, and initial
25 examinations were conducted at the burn pit, I was
72
1 not present and involved in it. I was -- at that
2 time, during that first week, was involved in the
3 neighborhood canvass aspect.
4 Q Okay .
5 A The examination of the debris that I testified under
6 direct exam, um, was conducted after all of the

7 material had been removed from the Avery property in,
8 um, various containers and brought to the Crime
9 Laboratory. That's where that examination was
10 completed.
11 Q So your in -- sifting involvement would have been
12 at t he Crime Lab?
13 A At the Crime Lab and at Calumet County Sheriff's
14 Department . Yes.
15 Q In regards to your involvement with this
16 investigation, were you aware of what type of
17 sifting or -- or the procedure that went on
18 actually at the burn area?
19 A No, I was not.
20 Q When you went through the items that were taken
21 to the Crime Lab, were they in separate boxes?
22 Or how -- Actu How were they stored and -- and
23 transported to the Crime Lab?
24 A When we examined the debris at the Crime Lab, it was,
25 um -- on the first two dates, December 19 and 20 of
73
1 2005 , the majority of that material I -- I recall
2 came out of large tarps. Um, the material had been
3 placed on large tarps, and then secured or taped

4 closed. If you'd take, say, a bedsheet and bring the
5 corners up, twist it, and turn it, and secure it with
6 tape, that's how it was brought to the Crime Lab .

7 Um, on the second occasion, in April of
8 2006, the majori ty of the debris that we examined
9 on that occasion was in individual five-gallon
10 plastic buckets .
11 Q Okay . Were they labeled as to where they were

12 taken from the -- from the burn area or the burn
13 pit?
14 A I know that they were labeled. The - - the buckets,
15 in particular, and the tarps , for that matter, I
16 believe, were labeled as to where they were collected

17 from , but I was not involved in the actual collection
18 of that material.
19 Q Were you involved later in t he process of
20 organizing that in some sort of a -- a diagram of

21 where each items were found within the burn pit,
22 itself?
23 A No.
24 Q So you woul dn't have no idea where items might
25 have been located in t he burn pit?
74
1 A No.
2 Q Are you aware of whether every item that was in
3 that burn pit was b r ought to the Crime Lab and
4 and reviewed by you or your -- your crew of -- of
5 techs?
6 A I believe that -- It's my understanding that all of
7 the material that was removed, all burned and soil
8 material that was removed from the Avery property,
9 was examined by an investigator over the course of
10 those four days, as well as prior to that.
11 I believe , uh, Special Agent Pevytoe had
12 done some examinations with other agents. I say
13 that because I know that it was our goal to
14 visually examine and go through all of the debris
15 that came out of the burn pit, as well as other
16 areas, as I alluded to, stated was in the
17 buckets. And when that was finished, when we
18 went through all of that material, it was my
19 unders t anding everything had been done .
20 Q Did you receive, or do you recall, as one item
21 that was brought to the Crime Lab, uh, the, uh
22 a burned out van seat?
23 A I -- I was not involved in the examination of that.
24 Q Okay. So you didn't personally investigate or
25 review that, uh , van seat?
75
1 A No , I did not .
2 Q Do you recall , though , if it was actually at the
3 Crime Lab when your, um -- your team was
4 reviewing the -- goi n g thr ough the si ft -- or
5 sifting through the burn area buckets to
6 determine if t h ere were bones or, I think you
7 mentioned, metal objects?
8 A I don't know if it was t here or not.
9 Q When you were s ifting through -- You -- You
10 You indicated that at some times there were a
11 forensic anth ropologist there to assist in
12 determining whether something might be a suspect
13 bone fragment or or somet hing that she might
14 be i nterested i n looking at; correct?
15 A Correct .
16 Q As the, uh, Crime Lab technicians , including
17 yourself, went through and sifted , you're going
18 through d i r t ; correct?
19 A It's dirt and then ash .
20 Q Were you using anything like a brush or a water
21 bottle to clean off items that you thought were
22 suspected e v idence ?
23 A I'm sorry, you said a brush and a what?
24 Q A brush or some sort of a -- like a water, uh ,
25 jar, squeeze water - - to squee -- to clean the
76
1 item off?
2 A No, we did not use any water rinsing. Um, and,
3 basically, it came down to the preference of the
4 investigator as to if they preferred to use it
5 just -- uh, do this process just with their hands, or
6 if they preferred to use a -- a wooden skewer, or a

7 pick, um, or if they wished to use a brush, or a
8 putty knife. It's personal preference, but some of
9 those instruments were used.
10 Q Okay . No one -- You know, this may sound silly,
11 no one was told, go ahead, blow on it, get rid of
12 the the dust or the dirt?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay . That could potentially contaminate that
15 with that investigator's saliva; correct?
16 A I believe that 's a potential.
17 Q So you guys sat down and talked about what
18 procedures you're going to take in sifting
19 through these, um, buckets and -- and the bags of
20 debris taken from the area before you actually
21 s ta rted, uh -- the , uh, sifting?
22 A Correct.
23 Q You mentioned that you were involved on the team
24 on approximately March 1, or maybe it was on
25 March 1 , 2006, in the Avery garage?
77
1 A Yes, it was March 1 and 2 .
2 Q And 2nd. And I believe you indicated that you --
3 the search, itself , was somewhat methodical? One
4 person went in and videotaped the garage first?
5 A Correct .
6 Q Um, and then -- How many were on your team
7 searching?
8 A On March 1 it was, uh, four . Four individuals . And
9 on March 2 , uh, one additional, Agent Roswell, joined
10 us.
11 Q Did you videotape the actual search, itself?
12 A No.
13 Q Just the be fore and after?
14 A Correct.
15 Q When you went through the search, you indicated
16 that you started from one corner of the garage
17 and worked your way in a horseshoe around to the

18 other ; correct?
20 Q When you -- When you first went through the
21 garage
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And if I could ask

23 the State to put up -- I believe it's Exhibit
24 105 . The photo of t he garage .
25 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Do you have State's
78
1 Exhibit 105 before you?
2 A Yes, I do .
3 Q And, again, t hi s is , uh, Steven Avery's garage ;
4 correct? On March 1 , 2006?
5 A Correct .
6 Q And this a view after you have opened the garage
7 door? The -- the -- the main overhead door?
8 A Correct .
9 Q Was there a vehicle in the garage when you first
10 arrived there to search the garage?
11 A Yes , there was.
12 Q And you had to remove the -- the vehicle?
13 A Yes .
14 Q How did you get it -- Did you drive it? Push it

15 out?
16 A A tow truck .
17 Q Okay . When Was there someone in the garage
18 wa tching i n case car knocked over a shell casing
19 or moved some item of debris within the garage?
20 Just to make note of that?
21 A Yes . We were present in the garage as it was being
22 removed , but, um, vehicle was parked in the garage
23 similar to the way a n y of us p arked a vehicle in the
24 garage. It did not come into contact wi th anything
25 else as it 's being moved .
79
1 Q Okay.
2 A And removed from the garage . So I don't believe that
3 was a concern .
4 Q You -- You noticed on the picture -- Again,
5 it's -- I believe it's Exhibit is 1 -0 -- 105 .
6 You refer to them as tents or evidence tents?
7 Those are those little cones or numbered cones?
8 A They -- Various terms . They could be marking
9 evidence , or they could just be, uh , for -- for
10 photographic ref -- uh , reference .
11 Q Okay. Some of those don't -- Well, let me ask
12 you this : When the -- when the car was in the
13 garage, you can -- you can see in the picture
14 there seems to be a tire track?
15 A Yes , I see that.
16 Q Like a white tire track in the middle?
17 A Yes .
18 Q That ' s where the -- the -- that, uh, Suzuki was?
19 A I -- I don't know that because the vehicle that we
20 removed was not a Suzuki.
21 Q Oh . I'm sorry. Whatever the vehicl e was that
22 was in the garage , that's where that was?
23 A It was in that area . In the large open area . If you
24 see the -- if I can point to the --
25 Q Sure .
80
1 A -- black object right here, this is an engine hoist.
2 The vehicle was here to the left of it in the open
3 bay.
4 Q Okay . So there was some items that you located
5 and marked with those yellow tags that weren't
6 covered by the vehicle; correct?
7 A I don't know if I understand your question, sir .
8 Q They weren't concealed . The vehicle wasn't on
9 top of any -- some of the items that you -- you
10 note in this picture; correct?
11 A I I still don't know if I can answer that. And
12 I I
13 Q Let me ask it a third way. Maybe that will - -
14 I' 11 try a third way . Could you see some of the
15 items when you walked into the garage originally?
16 The videotape? The items I mean would be the
17 ones that you've marked with these yellow cones
18 or tents?
19 A Some of these yellow markers, specifically the ones
20 around the back of the garage, are next to circles
21 that are drawn on the concrete floor, and the reason
22 some of these, in particular No. 10, appears to be
23 where the car would have been, if I can explain how
24 this occurred, after we entered the garage and
25 videotaped the interior, did a cursory search, we had
81
1 identified the presence of the Black Jack creeper, we
2 had identified the presence of some paint thinner
3 jugs, and other things that we believed were items
4 that we were going to collect .
5 We also became aware of some of these
6 circles that were on the floor. It was my
7 understanding, I was informed, that those had
8 been placed on the floor by Crime Lab personnel
9 during a previous search, and identified areas
10 that may have, uh, luminesced from luminol.
11 So we identified those just for
12 identification purposes t hat they are here. At
13 that point, um, we then removed the vehicle, and
14 I felt as long as the vehicle was out of the way,
15 let ' s take a photograph of where our markers are.
16 And that's why some of these markers, in
17 particular, as I said, No. 10, is under the
18 vehicle.
19 Q Okay . Thank you. That clarifies that. So when
20 you did your search on March 1 and into March 2,
21 the only two items, I think -- well, that you
22 testified - - correct me if I 'm wrong -- that you
23 would have - - would have been new, would be No. 9
24 and No. 23 , the one underneath the compressor
25 that , as of yet, in this picture, isn ' t marked?
82
1 A I 'm sorry? That would have been new?
2 Q Would have been new items that came to your --
3 You know, you said -- you mentioned that someone
4 else came through and searched previously;
5 correct?
6 A In November of 2005 .
7 Q And they circled some areas on the ground and on
8 the pavement in the driveway -- in the garage ;
9 correct?
10 A Correct .
11 Q And you noted those circles; correct?
12 A Correct .
13 Q And you put the little marking next to those
14 little white circles?
15 A Correct .
16 Q That wasn't something that you just found;
17 correct? It was some -- some subject or some
18 item that previous search team thought was of
19 interest; correct?
20 A Well, to answer your question the way you -- you
21 stated it, it was something that, yes, I did just
22 find, because this is the first occasion I had been
23 in the garage. I saw t h at there were circles, and I
24 was inf orrned that those circles had been placed by
25 Crime Lab personnel to identify areas that had
83
1 reacted through luminol. So for the sake of
2 photographic documentation, we placed markers next to
3 those. That does not mean that we specifically
4 collected an item of evidence from, say, Marker No. 3
5 or Marker No. 4.
6 Q Which items did you actually, specifically,
7 remove an item of, uh, evidentiary value then?
8 A Well, this photograph was taken in the early evening
9 hours of March 1, and there was a great deal of
10 searching that took place after this photograph was
11 taken , and many items of evidence were collected
12 after this photograph was taken.
13 As each individual item of evidence was
14 found , or something was identified that we felt
15 was going to be a n item of evidence and we were
16 going to collect it, we would place an -- an
17 evidence photographic marker next to it,
18 photograph it, measure it, and collect it . So
19 there are many numbers that come after the
20 highest number in this photograph.
21 Q You mentioned there was a prior Crime Lab taper,
22 or Crime Lab technician, that came through, made
23 those circles, where you noted had been positive
24 for the luminol testing ; correct?
25 A That 's what I was told.
84
1 Q What you were told? So someone else went through
2 the garage before you'd gone through the garage
3 on March 1?
5 Q And No . 9 on the picture, uh , notes, appa rently,
6 a bullet fragment that you found ; correct?

7 A Correct.
8 Q And it's in a crack in the pavement of the -- the
9 garage floor?
10 A Correct .
11 Q Okay . So -- so I would assume, correct me if I'm
12 wrong, that someone miss ed that the first time?
13 A I don't know as if I -- I can assume that. All I can
14 say is that on March 1 I happened to be walking in
15 the garage, and I stopped, and I looked down, and I
16 saw the gray object that struck me as being similar
17 in color to the lead from a bullet, which -- which
18 caused me to examine it closer.
19 Q Just walking into the garage you saw it and made
20 note of it?
21 A Yes. In fact, several other investigators had
22 already been into the garage. I happened to be in

23 this front corner of the garage looking with a
24 flashlight at the floor in the early stage of the
25 search, and looked down , and, as I said, I saw a
85
1 light gray-colored object that -- I knew in my mind
2 that we need to be looking for bullets. That looks
3 to be the color of lead fr om a bullet.
4 Q Did you process And what I mean by that is ,
5 did you take uh, uh, swabs of -- of the bullet,
6 for instance, and the creeper, whi le you were in
7 the garage?
8 A No, we did not.
9 Q Di d So no one in your team actually swabbed
10 any of those items to determine if there was any
11 potential DNA evidence?
12 A Not on the items as stated , no .
13 Q I'm sorry . I didn't hear .
14 A Not on the items that you just stated, no .
15 Q Okay . Any item -- any items in the -- the garage
16 that you did that to?
17 A The swabs were collected on the 2nd, yes .
18 Q What were the swabs collected? What -- what
19 items were swabbed?
20 A The red tool chest at the back of the garage was
21 swabbed .
22 Q Any reason why you didn ' t swab the creeper?
23 A Uh, we -- we need to make a decision. Are we going
24 to try and collect any visible stains here in the
25 field? Or is it more practical to collect this
86
1 object in its entirety as a whole , if it is portable,
2 can we package it sufficiently and protect any
3 evidence that may be o n it, and transfer it to the
4 Crime Lab? And t h at 1 s what we chose to do .
5 Q So you actually did transport the entire creeper
6 to the Crime Lab?
7 A I did not. It was collected and packaged and removed
8 from the garage. And any further analysis or testing
9 at the Crime Lab became someone else's
10 responsibility .
11 Q Someone in your team packaged the creeper;
12 correct?
13 A Yes . It was removed from the garage, and it was
14 collected and packaged for transport away from there .
16 THE COURT: Redirect?
17 REDI RECT EXAMINATI ON
19 Q Mr. Fremgen suggests that law enforcement
20 officers may have miss ed something before March
21 1. Isn 1 t it true that it wasn ' t until March 1
22 that law enforcement was even told that Teresa
23 Halbach was shot in the garage --
25 Q -- that you (inaudible.)
87
2 Q And that was by the defendant, Mr. Dassey ; is
3 that right?
4 A Correct.
5 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's all I've got,
6 Judge. Thank you.
7 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Just --
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- one moment, Judge .
10 Nothing more, Judge. Thank you .
11 THE COURT: You may step down .
12 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State would call Dan
13 Kucharski to the stand, please.
14 THE CLERK: Please raise your rig ht
15 hand .
16 DANIEL KUCHARSKI,
21 THE WITNESS: Daniel J. Kucharski,
22 K-u-c-h-a - r-s-k-i.
25 Q Mr . Kucharski, how are you employed?
88
1 A I'm employed by the Calumet County Sheriff's Office.
2 Q How long have you been on the -- a police
3 officer?
4 A I've been with Calumet County for about four years,
5 and two years before that with another agency.
6 Q What are your current duties with Calumet County?

7 A I'm a patrol deputy with the additional duties as an
8 evidence tech and armor for the county.
9 Q Were you asked, Deputy Kucharski, to assist in,
10 uh, search and other investigative efforts
11 regarding the death of Teresa Halbach?

12 A Yes , I was.
13 Q I'm going to move, um, right ahead to your
14 specific areas of, uh, involvement, specifically,

15 to Sunday, the 6th of November. Were you asked
16 to proceed to what 's now known as the Avery

17 salvage property?
18 A Yes , I was.
19 Q What were your duties on the 6th of, uh,
20 November?
21 A I was assigned a -- a search team that included, uh,
22 Lieutenant Lenk, Sergeant Colborn, and Detective
23 Remiker. We were give~, uh, several areas on the
24 property to search different times of the day.
25 Q Speak up just a little bit. I'm sure we would
89
1 appreciate it . Uh , do you have, and did you
2 have, prior to the 6th of November, any specific
3 trai ning and experience as an evidence
4 techni cian?
5 A Yes . I went through the two-week evidence technician
6 school at Fox Valley Technical College.
7 Q On the 6th of November, uh, were you asked, and
8 did you, in fact, perform a search of the, uh,
9 detached garage of Steven Avery?
10 A Yes , I did .
11 Q Could you describe on that early stage, that is ,
12 just in the first full day of searching of that
13 property, describe what it was that you were
14 looking for in that garage?
15 A Basically, mysel f and my team were sent to the, uh,
16 garage for a general search . We were looking for
17 general, um, items that made a point as to a crime
18 that had been committed. Urn , nothing specific at
19 that time were we looking for .
20 Q And, in fact, on that, uh, early date, uh, did
21 you have, urn, a detailed or a solid understanding
22 what it was you were looking for?
23 A Not at all . There was very little guidance . Um, as
24 the facts would roll in , we would get, uh, more
25 specific things. As the days went past, we'd get
90
1 more specific things to search for and to collect.
2 Uh, that was my first day of actual evidence
3 collecting and searching, urn, very general.

4 Q All right. I've got some photographs that will
5 assist. I show you what's marked as Exhibit 116.
6 Tell the jury what this is, please?

7 A This is a photo of the inside of the garage that, uh,
8 we searched on that Sunday. So it would be towards

9 the, urn -- the front or overhead door looking back
10 towards the, um, southeast corner of the garage.
11 Q There are two large objects, two vehicles, if you

12 will, that are depicted in this particular
13 photograph. Could you describe those for the
14 jury, please?
15 A It's a Suzuki Samurai automobile and a, urn, Ski-doo
16 Mach 1, urn, snowmobile.
17 Q And is this photograph taken and does it

18 accurately depict how Mr. Avery's garage looked,
19 uh, on the 6th of November?
20 A Yes, it does.
21 Q The back of this photograph you see a , uh -- a

22 Black Jack creeper?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And I 've zoomed in a little bit, uh, to t hat .
25 You can see it on the -- the large screen. Urn,
91
1 on the 6th of November, did you have any
2 indication that that Black Jack creeper may, i n
3 fact , have any evidentiary value?
4 A No . Nothing stood out.
5 Q Did you have a genera l impression of t his garage
6 when you first walked into it? Can you give the ,
7 uh, jury kind of a flavor of it?
8 A I would say i t was a typical garage on the messy
9 side. Um, t he west side of the garage was piled up
10 with types of, um, uh, machinery, junk, urn, things
11 like that, several feet deep on that west side .
12 Urn, along the back of the garage, that
13 would be the south side of the garage , was
14 also had equi pment and junk on i t . Not quite as
15 deep as tha t -- that west side .
16 Then on the east side of the garage ,
17 into the garage , t here ' s also a pile of junk .
18 Um, the floor was a typical garage floor with,
19 uh, stains on it, dirt .
20 Q At some point was tha t snowmobile removed f rom
21 the garage?
22 A Yes . At one point , uh , towards the end of o ur
23 searching, we wanted to see -- look underneath the
24 snowmob ile , so we removed i t from the garage .
25 Q All right . And, again , since this was a -- a
92
1 relatively cursory search, did you believe that
2 you or other law enforcement officers would have
3 an opportunity to go back into this garage and

4 re-search it if you need -- needed today?
5 A Yes . As -- as more information came in, more
6 specific information came in , we would go back to

7 places that we had -- had already searched l ooki ng
8 for specific things .
9 Q I'm showing you Exhibit No. 117 now. It's on the
10 large screen . Is this a photograph after the
11 snowmobile's been removed?
12 A Yes .
13 Q Could you, uh, describe some -- And I think you
14 have a laser pointer up there. Describe some,

15 urn, landmarks or specific, uh, areas that you
16 observed on the 6th of November?
17 A Well , after we, um, removed the snowmobile, we coul d
18 see more clearly, um, the -- a crack running, uh --
19 be north and south, and one east and west. Uh, these
20 are the scratches made by the, uh , snowmobile pull ing

21 in and out of the, uh, um, um, garage . There were
22 scratches already on the floor before we pulled it
23 out, because they obviously had to get it in there
24 somehow. Um, that's what we saw when we pulled the

25 snowmobile out.
93
1 Q All right. There's a riding , uh , lawnmower?
2 Looks like a John Deere lawnmower to the right;
3 is that right?
4 A Towards t he back here in this area. Riding
5 lawnmower.
6 Q Large red tool chest? Show us that?
7 A Stand-up tool chest in the center area here towards
8 the back wall.
9 Q Next to that tool chest, on the 6th, I can see a,
10 uh -- a green air compressor . Do you see that in
11 the photograph?
12 A It's dark, but it's right here, the green air
13 compressor on the floor next to the tool chest .
14 Q Now, for the jury's benefit, were, um, many or,
15 in fact, any of t hose items removed? And did you
16 search behind or under them? Or was it that
17 thorough of a search on the 6th?
18 A I t was a general search. We -- You know, on the mos t
19 detailed search, we would have pulled everything out
20 of the garage. We, obviously, didn't do that. Um,
21 the only thing we pulled out was the -- the sled, um,
22 because we couldn't see underneath it, uh, readily,
23 and it was out in the open anyways. We didn't take
24 out any of the things along the back wall or the side
25 walls.
94
1 Q All right. The floor of this, uh, garage you had
2 described briefly, but I'm going to show you
3 Exhibit No. 118. Tell us what we're looking at

4 here, please?
5 A It's little bit closer view of the, uh, floor after
6 the snowmobile had been pulled out.

7 Q During your search of the garage, did you have
8 occasion to, uh, find any, um, what are referred
9 to as shell casings?
10 A Yes . We found, located and collected several . 22
11 caliber long rifle shell casings.

12 Q I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit No.
13 119 . Tell the jury what we're looking at here,
14 please?
15 A This i s one of the shell casings that we found in
16 place on the floor of the garage on the date we
17 searched it .
18 Q All right. Did you take a photograph o f more
19 than one shell casing?
20 A We photographed more than one shell casing. We t ook

21 a s many photographs of the shell casings tha t we
22 could. Some were behind things that we couldn't
23 readily photograph. We collected those and, uh, put
24 t hem altogether into a box .
25 Q I f you remember, Deputy Kucharski, on the 6th of
95
1 November, uh, can you remember, and can you tell
2 the jury, how many shell casings were recovered
3 from that garage?
4 A There were ei ther 10 or 11 shell casings recovered.
5 Q In fact, now I'm going to show you Exhibit No.
6 120 , I believe. Tell us what we're looking at
7 here, please?
8 A This is the pill box that I put the, um, shell
9 casings in, photographed, um, after it had been
10 entered into evidence.
11 Q And as you sit here, are you able to tell the
12 jury, and can you count, how many shell casings
13 are in that pill box?
14 A I count 10 -- uh, I count 11 in this photograph .
15 Q All right. And, again, those were recovered from
16 inside the garage on the garage floor; is that
17 right?
19 Q What exhibit, uh, was that that you were just
20 handed?
21 A (No verbal response .)
22 THE CLERK: One twenty-eight.
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ: One twenty-eight?
24 Q (By Attorney Kratz) I'm sorry. We've handed you
25 what's been marked as, uh, Exhibit 128. Tell us
96
1 what that is , please?
2 A It appears to be the -- the box with the .22 shell
3 casings .
4 Q All right . After you recovered t hose shell
5 casings, do you know what happened to them?
6 A After I sealed them in the package and put them into
7 the, uh, paper bag a n d enter those into evidence at
8 the Calumet County Sheriff's Department, and I left
9 it in the care and custody of the , uh, evidence
10 custodian.
11 Q Now, you didn't perform any analysis on those
12 shell casings? In other words, you aren't
13 qualified to compare, uh, shell casings to
14 specific firearms , are you?
15 A Correct . I just collected them. I didn't do any
16 analysis on them.
17 Q Is it fair to say that that is a -- a discipline
18 or a science that is left to somebody with
19 greater expertise than you have?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Deputy Kucharski, after the, uh, garage was
22 searched in relatively general fashion, do you
23 recall, um, what other searches were performed on
25 A Only the searches that my team did . Um, directly
97
1 after we finished up with the, uh , search of the
2 garage, I was cal l ed over to a area behind t he, uh,
3 Janda r esidence t o ta ke some burn barrels, um, that
4 were waiting t o be loaded up and taken -- en t ered
5 into evidence .
6 Um, after that , I was given the
7 assignment --
8 Q Let me just stop you there . I'm go ing to show
9 you what's been marked as Exhibit No. 121. Tell
10 us what we're looking at here , please?
11 A Those are the burn barrels that I tagged , and they
12 were lowered onto a trailer that you can see the ramp
13 on there, and t hey were taken.
14 Q After the search of t he , um, burn barrel s or --
15 excuse me the recovery of , uh , the Janda and,
16 uh -- That's Mr. Dassey's residence as we ll? Is
17 that your understanding?
18 A I -- I don't know .
19 Q Okay . You knew that it was Barb Janda's --
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- trailer?
22 A That's how it was referred to .
23 Q After the recovery of thos e burn barrels, urn,
24 what were you asked to do?
25 A We were sent to t he, uh, Janda residence to , um ,
98
1 search it.
2 Q And did you , in fact , search that residence?
3 A Yes, we did. Uh, again, this was a general search.
4 Um, not looking for anything in specific.
5 Q During the search of, uh, the Janda trailer, did
6 you have occasion to observe and recover a , um --
7 a phone message that was found on, um, the
8 answering machine of the Janda residence?
9 A Yes . One of the first things that we did when we
10 entered the residence is, uh, Detective Remiker
11 played the phone message whi le we were all standing
12 around. Uh, he recorded it . Um, and then we
13 commenced searching the rest of the, uh, residence .
14 Q Direct your attention to t h e photos in front of
15 you . Exhibit No. 123, and now being shown on the
16 large screen for the jurors, what are we looki ng
17 at?
18 A This is a photo of the phone and answering machine
19 that was in the, uh, Janda residence.
20 Q Did -- And you indicated that you had occasion to
21 listen to, uh, at least one of those phone
22 messages; is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did an individual on that phone message identify
25 herself?
99
1 A Yes. We listened to the message that, uh, the female
2 caller , uh, identified herself as Teresa.
3 ATTORNEY KRATZ: At this time, Judge,
4 assuming this works, I will ask the Court for
5 permi ssion to p l ay t h at particular phone message.
6 We do have the, uh , phone message , uh , reduced to
7 a -- an audio CD as well that I will then ask to
8 have marked, and t hen I'll place into evidence at
9 that t ime .
12 THE COURT : All right . Go ahead .
13 (Wherein attempt is made to play phone
14 message.)
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ : We should try this
16 maybe one more time. Apologize. Do it the old
17 fashioned way, Judge . See how this wo rks . Let ' s
18 try it again .
19 THE COURT : Couns el, do you have other
20 questions to ask of Mr. Kuchar -- Kucharski?
21 Maybe you'll want to --
22 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Thank you, Judge . We
23 will - -
24 THE COURT : give another shot at this
25 later on.
100
1 ATTORNEY KRATZ: We wi ll come back to
2 this a little bit later.
3 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Investigator Kucharski - -
4 or, excuse me -- Deputy Kucharski, after the, um,
5 phone call was, um, recovered from you, uh, what
6 were your other search efforts that day?
7 A After we finished with the, uh, Janda house, we were
8 also assigned to, uh, search, um, the shop buildings,
9 um, and then, ul timatel y, assigned to search the, um,
10 pickup truck that was parked outside of Steven
11 Avery's garage .
12 Q Deputy Kucharski, did you have occasion to, um,
13 recover any firearms that day?
14 A Yes. We were also sent to the, uh, Steven Avery
15 trailer to specifically pick up, um, firearms that
16 were in the trai l er, a, uh, vacuum cleaner that was
17 in the trailer, and bedding from a spare bedroom that
18 was in the trailer.
19 Q And could you tell the jury, please, uh, what
20 firearm , if any -- or firearms, if any, were
21 recovered from Mr. Avery's trailer?
22 A Inside of, uh, Steven Avery's bedroom, we found,
23 above the bed in a, um, gun rack, two rifles. One
24 was a Connecticut Valley Arms Hawkin-type .50 caliber
25 muzzleloader. Um, the other was a . 22 caliber
101
1 Glenfie l d Model 60 semi-automatic rifle.
2 Q I'm showing you a, uh, photo that has a l ready
3 been received, uh, into evidence in this case as
4 Exhibit No. 86. Do you recognize that
5 photograph?
6 A Yes . It's a photo of the rifle. The .22 caliber
7 semi-automatic rifle.
8 Q We're going to actually have marked, uh, Deputy
9 Kucharski , and show you -- It 's Exhibit -- I'm
10 showing you what's been marked as Exhibi t No.
11 129 . Tell the jury what that is , please?
12 A This is the rifle that, uh, I collected out of Steven
13 Avery's bedroom . The . 22 caliber semi-automatic
14 rifle .
15 Q Now, are you familiar with a firearm --
16 Specifically, do you have some working
17 familiarity with this particular firearm?
18 A I am the armor for the, uh, county, so I have b een to
19 several schools, uh , trained in maintenance and
20 identification of weapons. Yes, I know how this
21 rifle works.
22 Q All right. When you describe a rifle as a
23 semi-automatic rifle, and, specifically, Exhibit
24 No. 129, can you tell us what that means, please?
25 A A semi-automatic is referring to the act ion of the
102
1 rifle. This rifle is -- has a tubular magazine.
2 Below the magazine with the, uh -- the -- t he
3 ammunition for it. After it's loaded, every time you
4 pull the trigger, one round will be fired. The next
5 r ound will be automatically cycled into the chamber,
6 and then with every successing pull of the trigger
7 you get one round.
8 Q I don't know if you know this answer, uh, Deputy
9 Kucharski, but does this particular weapon, this
10 .22 caliber semi-automatic rifle, uh, contain
11 several, um, bullets within its, what's called ,
12 magazine?
13 A Inside the magazine to this particular model,
14 depending on when it was made, is somewhere between
15 14 and 17 rounds you can put in the tubular magazine.
16 Q All right. So before stopping to reload, an
17 individual could shoot, uh, 14 to 17 rounds of
18 ammunition through it? Is that what your
19 testimony is?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Where was that, uh, rifle seized from ,
22 specifically?
23 A This was in Steven Avery's bedroom inside the trailer
24 on the wall in a gun rack above his bed.
25 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Could you
103
1 Investigator Wiegert, thank you.
2 Q (By Attorney Kratz) Deputy Kucharski, upon a,
3 um, search of Mr. Avery's residence, do you have
4 occasion to, uh, seize or remove any cleaning,
5 uh, equipment?
6 A On the 6th, we were specifically sent in to, um, take

7 a vacuum, and, then, on the 8th, when we went back to
8 do a thorough search of the residence, we, um,
9 collected as evidence a Bissell carpet cleaner.
10 Q I'm going to show you a photograph, Exhibit No .
11 124 . It's on the large screen. Can you tell us
12 what that is, please?
13 A That is the Bissell carpet cleaner that we, um, took
14 into evidence on the 8th.
15 Q Do you remember where that was received from?
16 A I think it was in the hallway, urn, living room
17 portion.
18 Q Investigator Wiegert is actually going to show
19 you that item.
20 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Roberta, what number is
21 that?
22 THE CLERK: Exhibit 130.
23 Q (By Attorney Kratz) I'm showing you what's been
24 marked as Exhibit No. 130. Tell the jury what
25 that is, please?
104
1 A That is the Bissell carpet cleaner that, uh, we took
2 from the residence on the 8th.
3 Q All right. Thank you. If I can just go back.
4 Uh, I believe it was on t he 6t h you talked about,
5 a -- maybe it was the 7th -- a searching an
6 office area or another building within the, uh,
7 Avery compound; is that right?
8 A On the 6th and the 7th, um -- On the 6th was more
9 more of a general search of the office buildings , on
10 the, uh, property there . On the 7th, I also went
11 into some of the buildings to specifically take some
12 items .
13 Q I'm going to show you Exhibit No. 122. It's a
14 photograph . Can you tell us what we're looking
15 at, please?
16 A This is a photograph of -- on the inside of one of
17 the office buildings. That's kind of like a, uh -- a
18 customer counter, I believe. And t hat 's, uh, with a
19 endangered/missing poster for Teresa Halbach .
20 Q Directing your attention, now, to the 8th of
21 November, were you asked to perform a more
22 thorough search of the residence of Steven Avery?
23 A On the 8th, um, myself, Lieutenant Lenk, and Sergeant
24 Colborn were sent back to the Steven Avery residence
25 to, uh, specifically take several items, and then
105
1 complete a thorough search of the residence .
2 Q On the 8th, uh, did you have occasion to find any
3 ammunition? Specifically, any . 22 caliber l ong
4 rifle ammunition from the bedroom of Steven
5 Avery?
6 A Yes, we did. We located and collected . 22 caliber
7 long rifle ammunition from the bedroom.
8 Q An evidence photograph of that was taken. I'm
9 going to direct your attention to Exhibit 125 .
10 Could you tell us what that is, please?
11 A That is a photo of the . 22 caliber ammunition that
12 was taken from the bedroom.
13 Q Also, on the 8th, did you have occasion to find
14 and recover, uh , a key?
15 A Yes . On the 8th we recovered a Toyota key in the
16 bedroom of Steven Avery.
17 Q I show you what's been marked as Exhibit No. 127.
18 Excuse me, 126. Could you tell us what Exhibit
19 No. 126 is, please?
20 A It 's a photograph that I took of the key as it was
21 found in the bedroom .
22 Q Who collected this key?
23 A I d id.
24 Q And how was it collected, please?
25 A I collected the key by taking new gloves out of a
10 6
1 package that I brought into the residence to do the
2 searching with. Put the key into a new paper bag,
3 sealed the paper bag, and it was in my possession
4 until it left with Special Agent Joy to the Crime
5 Lab .
6 Q A photograph of that key was, uh, later take n by,
7 um, evidence technicians at the Sheriff's
8 Department. I'm showing you Exhibit No. 127.
9 Can you tell us what that is , please?
10 A That's another photograph of the key that we located
11 and took into evidence out of Steven's Avery's, uh,
12 bedroom.
13 Q Just so the jury's clear, this is what's commonly
14 referred to as a -- an evidence photo? That is,
15 after it's been collected; is that right?
17 Q And the last thing we're going to show you,
18 Exhi bit No. 131, and tell the jury what tha t is,
19 please?
20 A That is the key that we found in the -- Steven
21 Avery's bedroom.
22 Q Now, on the end of the key is a blue, um, what's
23 called a key fob. Something t hat would be
24 attached or go into a -- a lanyard. Is that your
25 understanding?
107
1 A Yes. A female end of the key fob is attached to the
2 key.
3 Q As depicted, that is, the key it, itself, with
4 the fob, um, and the key chain, i s that how it
5 was recovered? And does it look the same or
6 similar, uh, as Mr. Wiegert is holding it, as it
7 did when you recovered it on the 8th of November
8 from Mr. Avery's bedroom?
9 A Yes, it looks the same .
10 ATTORNEY KRATZ : With, uh, my
11 reservation, Judge, for, uh, replaying that
12 exhibit , once a -- and probably after lunch when
13 the, uh, technical, uh , problems are resolved --
14 and moving the admission of Exhibits 116 through
15 131 , I have no further questions of this witness .
16 Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Any objections to the exhibits,
18 Counsel?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: One thirty- one?
20 THE COURT : Yes.
21 ATTORNEY KRATZ: One thirty-one.
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: One thirty-one was --
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ : The key, itself.
24 THE COURT: The actual key.
25 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No. That's fine .
108
1 That's fine, Judge.
2 THE COURT : All right. They're received.
3 You may cross .
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN:
6 Q Deputy, good morning .
7 A Good morning.
8 Q I'm sorry. Is that better?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Okay. All right. So you -- you work for Cal
11 County? You've been over there four years;
12 right?
13 A Yes .
14 Q And where were you , specifically, before that?
15 A Oconto Police Department.
16 Q Okay. Do you have a , uh, four-year degree in
17 Police Science?
18 A I have a two-year degree in Police Science .
19 Q From?
20 A Urn, Green Bay . From, uh, uh, Northeast Wisconsin
21 Technical College.
22 Q Okay. Other than the training you described, uh,
23 the two-week training at Fox Valley, do you have
24 any other formal training, uh , through
25 educational entities for purposes of, uh, being
109
1 qualified on evidence collection?
2 A No.
3 Q Now, I noticed in response t o Mr . Kratz, when you
4 were questioned about firea rms collected, you
5 were very quick to state that you took that .22
6 out of Steven Avery's trailer ; correct?
7 A I took the .22 out of t he trailer, yes.
8 Q Okay . I think the question he asked you, though,
9 with your involvement, um, was a little broader
10 than that. And the truth of the matter is you
11 picked up a lot of firearms from the Avery
12 property; didn't you?
13 A Two firearms out of the Steven Avery trailer, and
14 many other firearms off the property.
15 Q Okay. So the two from the trailer certainly
16 weren't the only firearms that were picked up?
18 Q As a matter of fact, there was at least one other
19 .22; right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Any particular reason you can think of, when
22 Mr. Kratz asked you about firearms you picked up,
23 you didn't mention the others?
24 A We were speaking about the Steven Avery t railer. I
25 don't think we went into the searches, uh, on the
110
1 other pieces of property and weapons.
2 Q Deputy, I may have misunderstood Mr. Kratz's
3 question, but I understood him to ask you about
4 any firearms . But now that you've cleared that
5 up, you acknowledge that there -- there were
6 other firearms and there was at least one other
7 .22?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. The .22 Glenfield, you indicated that it
10 holds between 14 and 17 rounds; correct?
11 A I believe so, yes .
12 Q Well , upon what do you believe that?
13 A Urn, records, urn, from the Marlin Company. They
14 changed the, uh, configuration of the magazine at a
15 certain period during the manufacture. Orn, the only
16 real way to tell exactly how many it holds is to
17 actually load it . I don't know if it's been modified
18 or anything like that .
19 Q You didn't -- Well, you -- you looked at it I
20 assume?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You're fairly adept with firearms?
23 A I didn't examine it . I didn't take it apart at all .
24 Q Well, certainly by way of appearance, there
25 wasn't anything obvious that would indicate that
111
1 the magazine had been modified , was there?
2 A Nothing overly, no .
3 Q So your 14 to 17, this a guesstimate?
4 A Yes .
5 Q You never actual l y checked it?
6 A No .
7 Q Okay. In order to load that particular firearm ,
8 the i ndi v idual cartridges, the shells,
9 themselves, have to be individually handled;
10 correct?
11 A Yes .
12 Q Okay . And , basically, they slide down the tub e
13 and then it 's fed via a spring?
14 A Well, there is a -- there is a speed loading device
15 that they have on the market you can put into another
16 device , and then that fits into the tube, and then
17 they all drop in there , so I guess , individually, it
18 depends if you had that extra device or not .
19 Q Well , not to quibble with you, Deputy, but i n
20 order to load the s peed loader, you're going to
21 still have to handle each one of them separately,
22 aren't you?
23 A To put them into the speed loader , yes.
24 Q So whether you load the t hing directly, without
25 the benefit of a speed loader , or you utilize a
112
1 speed loader, someone is going to have to handle
2 each and every shell that ultimately ends up in
3 the tubular magazine of the rifle?

4 A Yes .
5 Q All right . Now, you recovered, I believe you
6 said, uh, 11 shell casings from the garage?

7 A Yes.
8 Q In various states of condition? Is that a fai r
9 statement?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay . Did you personally pick each and every one

12 of them up?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q So you can't tell us how they were handled prior
15 to you getting your hands on them, so to speak?
16 A Everyone was wearing gloves as we were searching .

17 Um, that's about the only t hing that I could tell you
18 about how they were handled .
19 Q But you didn't sit there and observe each and
20 every casing being picked up?
21 A Correct.
22 Q All right. So you don't know if they were picked
23 up using any type of device, or they were picked
24 up using, um, uh, hands or gloved hands, or
25 anything like that?
113
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Prior to the shell casings being removed f rom the
3 garage -- I assume you were in the garage, and,
4 essentially , everybody said, well, gee, I found
5 one, they bring them over to you. Is that what
6 happened?
7 A I found one, we'd, um, attempt to photograph it if i t
8 was out in the open. Circle it. Put a tent there.
9 Um, after, um, the point reached there where we
10 didn't find any more , okay, collect them all up.
11 Q At some point did you remove each and every item
12 from the garage?
14 Q Did you or anyone else document the precise
15 location within the garage of each of the shell
16 casings you did leave the garage with?
17 A Only the photographs .
18 Q Okay. So there were no measurements, for
19 example, that a shell casing was "X" distance
20 from the rear wall, or so many feet from another
21 wall?
23 Q Deputy, you tes t ified about, uh, finding what's
24 depicted in the photograph on display -- and for
25 the record it's the -- described as the CCI, uh,
114
1 .22s; correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q When you -- Are you the individual who located
4 that?
5 A Urn, that was located in in Steven Avery's bedroom.
6 Urn, Sergeant Colborn was searching that area of the ,
7 uh, bedroom . That would be the desk area .
8 Q So I guess the answer to my question is, no, you
9 were not the one who actually located it?
10 A Correct .
11 Q You took the picture?
12 A No.
13 Q Did you become, uh , t h e custodian of that box?
14 A Yes .
15 Q And that was on which day?
16 A The 8th .
17 Q Of November?
18 A Yes.
19 Q When it was -- Who -- Who gave it to you? Who
20 gave you the box?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q When it was given to you, was the top open or
23 closed?
24 A I don't remember -- If it was given to me, if it was
25 pointed out to me and I picked it up, I don't
115
1 remember if the box was open or closed.
2 Q Did you ever -- The -- the top of that will slide
3 in order to open; correct?
4 A Yes .
5 Q Did you at a nytime open it or close it to your
6 memory?
7 A No.
8 Q When you received it , how did -- if at all -- did
9 you package it?
10 A We took the ammunition out of that, um, bedroom and
11 placed it all into one bag. A grocery bag .
12 Q Okay. Are you telling us t hat you removed each
13 and every cartridge from that particular
14 container and put it in a grocery sack?
15 A No.
16 Q You left the thing in one piece with them in
17 place ; correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then put it in the sack?
20 A Yes .
21 Q All right. So you didn't handle, or t o your
22 knowledge nobody else handled, the individual
23 shells?
24 A Correct .
25 Q What about the outside? How was the outside of
116
1 that preserved for purposes of, urn, testing or
2 trying to lift any fingerprints off that?
3 A It wasn't preserved for fingerprint evidence .
4 Q You're a trained evidence technician, are you
5 not?
6 A Yes .
7 Q You've already seized a firearm, includi ng a . 22,
8 from that residence; correct?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Don't you think it would be important to try to
11 determine who , i f anybody, has handled t hat
12 particular box?
13 A Not at the time.
14 Q Didn't Agent Fassbender specifically tell you, go

15 back into Steven Avery's trailer and get that
16 . 22?
17 A Among other things, yes.
18 Q Well, now, as an officer , particularly one who's

19 trained in evidence collection, can you explain
20 to me why you did not think it was critical , in

21 light of the fact that Fassbender instructed you,
22 specifically, to go get that . 22 rifle, and
23 you've come across a box of . 22s, not to preserve
24 it in such a fash ion as would allow fo r
25 fi ngerprint processing?
117
1 A Out of all the items that, uh , myself and my team
2 collected, probably into the hundreds of items, I
3 only remember one item that we preserved for
4 fingerprint evidence .
5 Q That doesn't really answer my question. I didn't
6 ask you how many items you picked up. I just
7 want to know why you didn't think it was
8 important, particularly in light of the fact that
9 the lead investigator , Fassbender, tel l s you to
10 go get the .22 rifle , and you come across . 22
11 shells in a plastic case, that you didn't t hink
12 it was important to preserve it in a fashion
13 which would allow the processing for
14 fing erprints?
15 A I don't have an answer .
16 Q Did you not think that was important to be
17 preserved in such a fashion as to allow the
18 lifting of prints?
19 ATTORNEY KRATZ : Objection. Both
20 argumentative and irrelevant. If Mr. Edelstein
21 is saying somebody other than Steven Avery
22 handled this, it becomes relevant. Otherwise,
23 it's not relevant, Judge .
24 THE COURT : I agree . Move on,
25 Mr. Edelstein. And, for t he record, we're talking
118
1 here, I believe, about Exhibit 125 .
2 Q (By Attorney Edelstein) You didn't examine
3 Did you examine any of the individual cartridges
4 in there to determine what type of bullet was
5 contained in the box?
6 A No .
7 Q Did you, or any member of your search team , while
8 you were in the garage , or anytime after you
9 collected the 11 shell casings, um, per form any
10 swabbing on there so as to allow for the
11 processing of DNA evidence?
12 A On the shell casings?
13 Q Correct .
14 A No.
15 Q Do you know if that wa s ever done by anybody
16 involved in the investigation?
17 A I don't know .
18 Q Did you, or any member of your search team
19 assigned to perform the search in the garage,
20 following the receipt of the shell casings , do
21 anything in an attempt to, um, preserve them in
22 such a fashion as would allow the lifting of

23 fingerprin ts?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, you were there first in the garage on the
119
1 6th; is that right?
3 Q You didn't find any bullets in any cracks on that
4 day?
5 A No, I did not .
6 Q You didn't find any on the 8th; correct?
8 Q What about underneath the compressor? Did you
9 find any bullets or bullet fragments on the 6th
10 or the 8th?
12 Q You first testified that when you went in, when
13 you -- You characterize it as a general search
14 and that you weren't looking fo r anything
15 specific?
16 A Yes .
17 Q What are you searching for un -- under what you
18 describe as a general search?
19 A Anything that stood out . Um, any type of evidence
20 that stood out .
21 Q Prior to going in there on the 6t h , were you
22 advised by Fassbender or anyone else to look for
23 any spec -- particular items?
24 A Not that I recall, no.
25 Q Before you went in there with the search team,
120
1 uh, were you briefed by the agent in charge at
2 the command center?
3 A No. I was gett ing most of my orders from, uh,
4 Lieutenant Bowe or Lieutenant Sippel , and they were
5 getting it from the , uh, investigators in charge or
6 someone else .
7 Q So before you went in on the 6th, did you even go
8 down there? To t he command center?
9 A Yes . I would check in at the command center, um,
10 before each assignment to get the -- or after each
11 assignment and at the beginning of each day to get
12 the next assignment .
13 Q Now, the bedding that you picked up that you
14 testified about on direct, that was from Steve
15 Avery's trailer; correct?
16 A Yes .
17 Q Specifically , what did the bedding consist of?
18 Let - - Let me do it t his way . Was there a
19 pillowcase?
21 Q Was there a , um, quilt or any sort of blanket you
22 took?
23 A I took several sets of bedding off of the property
24 and I don't remember exactly what was in each set .
25 Q Do you recall , specifically , what you took off of
121
1 the bed at the time you were there?
2 A No. That's what I'm referring to.
3 Q Well, did all the bedding that you took come off
4 of the bed? Or did it come from -- for example,
5 from a closet or some sort of storage container?
6 A All of the bedding that I took came off of a bed .
7 Q Are you aware of any other bedding that was
8 removed that you did not take or tha t somebody
9 else took?
10 A I'm not aware of.
11 Q As to any of the bedding that you may have
12 taken -- Well, first of all, let's establish the
13 date . What date did you do that?
14 A I took bedding on the 6th of November . I took
15 bedding on the 8th of November.
16 Q From the same bed?
17 A No.
18 Q How many beds were in the trai ler?
19 A Two .
20 Q On the 6th, which bed did you take it from?
21 A On the 6th, I took the bedding from the spare bedroom
22 in Steven Avery's trailer.
23 Q I take it, then, on the 8th , you took it from the
24 bed in the -- what's been described as Steve's
25 bedroom?
122
1 A Yes .
2 Q And you don't have a specific recol l ection of the
3 individual items on either date?
4 A Correct .
5 Q Just generally described as bedding?
6 A Correct .
7 Q On the 8th, you too k t h e Bissell carpet cleaner?
8 A Yes .
9 Q On the 6th, you took the vacuum cleaner?
10 A Yes .
11 Q Did you take the vacuum, itself , or did you just
12 take the bag?
13 A The vacuum, itsel f .
14 Q And you understood that to be important because
15 of the potential for obtai n i ng evidentiary clues?
16 For example , hair?
17 A No. At that time I was instructed to pick it up .
18 Q Did you have an -- Again, you ' re try -- During
19 the cou r se of your training as an evidence tech ,
20 in addition to the techniques that you're taugh t
21 about preserving the integrity of the object , I
22 assume you learn a li tt le something about why the
23 object might have some r elevancy i n a criminal
24 investigation? Is that a fair statement?
25 A Yes .
123
1 Q And you're not going to argue with me if I say
2 taking the vacuum cleaner would be important,
3 because sometimes fiber evidence is contained in
4 those bags? You know t hat, don't you?
5 A Why it was taken you'd have to ask the person that
6 instructed me to ta ke it .
7 Q So you have no opinion as to why it would be
8 important to take it?
9 A My opinion would be , yes, prob ably for some type of ,
10 uh, um, trace evidence.
11 Q Okay . Did you -- Were you i nstructed to remove
12 any carpeting from Steve Avery's trailer?
13 A No, I wasn't.
14 Q Did you remove any ?
15 A No, I wasn't -- didn't.
16 Q Did you remove any carpet from any of the -- the
17 other locations you visited during the course of
18 your participation in the investigation?
19 A Not that I remember.
20 Q Well, that's something you would remember, isn ' t
21 that? If you cut out a piece of carpet and
22 turned it over to somebody for evidentiary
23 purposes , isn ' t it?
24 A I didn ' t cut out any carpet .
25 Q Well, you -- you just said you didn ' t remember .
124
1 But now you remember that you didn't; right?
2 A I remember I didn't cut out any carpet. Um, if I
3 picked up carpet, urn, slim possibility, but I - - I
4 don't remember it.
5 Q As to the items you did collect, did you
6 regularly turn them over to the same individual
7 from the lab?
8 A I never turned over any items to any lab personnel.
9 Q Did you turn over the items you did collect to
10 the same individual?
11 A Yes .
12 Q And who was that?
13 A Deputy Hawkins .
14 Q So everything you picked up, from bedding, the

15 shell casings , carpet stuff, the cleaner stuff,
16 the bullets, all of that went over to Hawkins?
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right. That's all. Thank you .
19 THE COURT: Any redirect, Counsel?
20 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Just, uh , one question.
23 Q Mr. Edelstein asked you what you knew, and who
24 told you, or why you might have, uh, searched the
25 garage. On the 6th , the day that you did search
125
1 the garage, the 6th of November, were you told
2 that anybody had yet made any statements about
3 Teresa Halbach being shot in that garage?
4 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : And I object. And
5 call for a hearsay answer.
6 THE COURT: I t hink it's a fair
7 question . Overruled.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I did not .
9 Q (By Attorney Kratz) If you would have been told
10 that Brendan Dassey, or Steven Avery, or somebody
11 else would have made a statement that Teresa
12 Halbach would have been shot in that garage,
13 would you have done a different kind of search on
14 the 6th?
15 A Absolutely. Uh , when information like that comes in,
16 that helps to direct your search .
17 ATTORNEY KRATZ: With the indulgence of
18 the Court, Judge, I'm going to try this again .
19 If it doesn't wo r k, we'll have to wait until
20 after lunch. I think Mr. Fremgen's helped me,
21 Judge .
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Can you say that for
23 the record?
24 (Wherein phone message is played . )
25 "Hello. This is Teresa with AutoTrader
126
1 Magazine. I ' m the photographer , and just giving
2 you a call to let you know that I could come out
3 there today , urn, in t he afternoon . It wou ld
4 will probably be around two o'clock or even a
5 little late r. But, urn , if you coul d please give
6 me a call back and let me know if that will work
7 for you, because I don't have your address or
8 anything, so I can't stop by wi thout gett i ng
9 the - - a call back from you . And my cell phone
10 is 737-4731 . Again, it's Teresa, 920 - 737-4731 .
11 Thank you."
12 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Once again , Judge , we
13 will have t hat marked a s an exhibi t. Uh, I wil l
14 offer that, uh , t o the Court.
15 Q (By Attorney Kratz) My last question, is that ,
16 in fact , uh , Deputy Kucharski, the mess age that
17 you heard from the Janda residence when you
18 searched it on t he 6th of November?
19 A Yes , it is.
20 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's all I've got ,
21 Judge. Thank you .
22 THE COURT : All right . Any cross related
23 to t hat?
24 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Uh , just very
25 briefly , Your Honor . Uh, this is not ,
127
1 necessarily, as to this last item that Mr. Kratz
2 just dealt wi th, but, uh, in response to his
3 other question.
4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
6 Q Officer, if you did not know that Brendan
7 Dassidly Dassey had allegedly given
8 information that Ms. Halbach had been shot in
9 that garage, can you explain to me why you took
10 the . 22 shells from the trailer , as we l l as the
11 . 22 rifl e?
12 A The .22 rifle was taken from the trailer on
13 instructions from supervisor . The ammunition was
14 taken from the trailer on a different date from
15 instructions by a supervisor .
16 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: That's all.
17 ATTORNEY KRATZ: One other question .
18 RE-REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 Q Steven Avery was a convicted felon at the time
21 a nd couldn't possess a weapon. That's t rue;
22 isn't it?
23 A Yes, it is .
24 Q And it's another reason to take the gun - - to
25 t ake the weapon that --
128
1 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor , I
2 object . It's leading . Suggestive .
3 THE COURT: It's l e ading. Suggestive .
4 ATTORNEY EDELSTE I N: It's irrelevant .
5 THE COURT: It's i t 's --
6 ATTORNEY KRATZ: It's not irrelevant at
7 all , Judge.
8 THE COURT : I -- Counsel?
9 ATTORNEY KRATZ : He said it was
10 irrelevant, Judge . It was cer -- certainly not .
11 THE COURT: I -- It was leading and
12 suggestive . It was not irrelevant .
13 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's a ll I have.
14 Thank you, Judge .
15 THE COURT: All right . You may step down .
16 We will adjourn for the lunch hour. Um, Mr. Kratz ,
17 you have more wi tnesses today? What time do you
18 expect your first witness to be here for this
19 afternoon?
20 ATTORNEY KRATZ : We can certainly begin,
21 uh, anytime after 1:00 if the Court wa n ts to .
22 THE COURT: How a bout 1 :00?
23 ATTORNEY KRATZ: That sounds perfect .
24 THE COURT : All right . We ' ll be back ,
25 then , at 1 :00. Again, I remind you , ladies and
129
1 gentlemen, not to speak about this case or anything
2 connected with it .
3 (Recess had at 11:54 a . m. )
4 (Reconvened at 1 : 01 p.m.)
5 THE COURT : Good afternoon . I think we're
6 ready to proceed. Mr . Kratz .
7 ATTORNEY FALLON : Good afternoon. Um,
8 I'll be handling this afternoon's witnesses.
9 State will commence , u h , testimony this afternoon
10 with, uh, Dr . John Ertl .
13 JOHN ERTL ,
15 sworn, was examined and tes ti fied as follows :
16 THE CLERK: Please be seated . Please state
18 THE WITNESS : My name is John Ertl,
19 J-o- h - n E-r-t-1.
22 Q How are you employed, sir?
23 A I work for the State Crime Laboratory in Madison .
24 Q And how long have you worked for the State Crime
25 Laboratory in Madison?
130
1 A Since January of 2000 .
2 Q What do you do for them?
3 A I am chiefly a DNA analyst in the DNA Analysis Unit .
4 I'm also involved with the Crime Scene Response Team .
5 Q What does the Crime , uh, Lab Response Team do?
6 A Uh, we offer assistance to, uh, law enforcement
7 agencies in the processing and collecting of evidence
8 at crime scenes. And, typically, it would -- it will
9 involve a homicide .
10 Q Typically, what does a team consist of? This
11 response team?
12 A Um, wel l , it can -- it can be as little as answering
13 a phone call and answering some questions that you
14 might have . Um, if -- if we actually respond to the
15 scene , we typically take two people . One person to
16 take notes and interact with the agency, the other
17 one is chiefly a photographer .
18 Q And do the, uh -- is this, uh, response team also
19 known as a Field Response Unit?
20 A Uh, that's what it says on the side of the van that
21 we drive around , yes.
22 Q All right . And, uh, typically, do some of these
23 response teams, uh -- do they include more than
24 two people on occasion?
25 A Uh, yes. Typically -- typically, the minimum would
131
1 be two . Uh , three is more usual . Um, for very
2 involved cases , sometimes wi ll take as many as four.
3 Q Now, you indicated your role, typically, when
4 you're not doing field response, is tha t as an
5 anal ys t?
6 A Right . In the DNA Unit .
7 Q And , uh, when t h ese field response teams are p u t
8 together, are there other , um , disciplines
9 refl ected in the makeup o f the team?
10 A Uh, yes. The -- the t eam isn ' t so much made up of
11 people from specific units f or specific tas ks at the
12 scene . Rather , it 's a volunteer unit that people
13 from the entire l ab feel t hat they can contribute to
14 it, and -- and then we go on the rotational basis
15 for -- to be on call . And I just happened to be on
16 call when this call came in .
17 Q How long have you been a member of the Field
18 Response Unit?
19 A Since 2002 .
20 Q Approximately how many crime scenes have you had
21 an opportunity to respond to as a member of the
22 Field Response Unit?
23 A I would -- It ' s a guess . I would guess, um, maybe 20
24 to 30 .
25 Q We ll , before we get into the particular, uh ,
132
1 details of your response in this case, let's find
2 out a little bit about yourself, Doctor . Would
3 you, first of all, tell us about your educational
4 background?
5 A First of all , I'm -- I ' m a mister . I'm not a doctor .
6 I have a Master ' s Degree in molecular biology, uh,
7 University of Wisconsin-Parkside . That's where my
8 Bachelor's Degree in chemistry was from as well .
9 Q Uh, and when did you receive t hat again?
10 A Um, Bachelor ' s Degree was in 1984 and Master's Degree
11 in 1992 .
12 Q And from which institution did you receive your
13 Master's Degree?
14 A The University of Wisconsin at Parkside .
15 Q And when did you receive that particular degree?
16 A In 1992.
17 Q After receiving that degree, what pursuit did
18 you, um, follow in terms of your education or job
19 training?
20 A I -- I obtained that degree while I was working at
21 the University as a research specialist in a plant in
22 molecular biology laboratory . Um, after I left the
23 University, I went and worked for Abbott Laboratories
24 in Waukegan, Illinois for awhile, where I worked on
25 diagnostic acetates using DNA techniques. Uh, from
133
1 there, I moved to the State Crime Laboratory in
2 Milwaukee where I was trained as a serologist and a
3 DNA analyst.
4 Q From -- from what time period did you work in
5 Milwaukee?
6 A From 1997, in March , until about November of 1998 .
7 Q And what occurred in November of '98? Where did
8 you move next?
9 A I moved down to Austin, Texas, and I worked for a
10 short time at the M. D. Anderson Cancer Research
11 Center In Smithville . And then I moved to the State
12 Crime Laboratory. It's called the Department of
13 Public Safety Crime Laboratory in Austin, Texas .
14 Q And how long did you work for the Texas State
15 Crime Lab?
16 A Until December of 1999 . And then I moved back to
17 Madison to work at the laboratory in Madison.
18 Q Very well . What are , um -- Again , returning to
19 your job experiences as a -- particularly as a
20 member of the Field Response Unit , what types of
21 cases does the Field Response Unit usually get
22 called in on?
23 A Usually, it's a homici de . Urn , missing persons are
24 also something we get involved in . Um, we get calls
25 anytime the agency has any question about anything .
134
1 How should they collect a certain item of evidence.
2 We do -- usually don ' t respond unless it's -- it's
3 bigger than that. Usually -- usually, we respond to
4 the smaller agencies . The Count y Sheriff's
5 Departments . Um, generally , we don't respond to the
6 larger cities because they have their own crime scene
7 response people .
8 Q All right . Let's direct your attention, then,
9 uh, to thi s particular case, Mr. Ertl . On
10 Saturday, November 5 , 2005, were you called to
11 assist in the investigation of the missing
12 person, Teresa Halbach?
13 A Yes, I was.
14 Q Tell us how you became involved?
15 A Well, it was around noon on Saturday, and I received
16 a call from the -- it's called the Time Control
17 System. They're the people who take the laboratory
18 phone calls while we ' re not actually at the
19 laboratory. And he directed me to call, um,
20 Manitowoc County and to ask for a Detective Dave
21 Remiker. And so I did that.
22 And he indicated that they were, um,
23 working on a missing persons case out of Calumet
24 County, and the vehicle from the missing person
25 had been located in a salvage yard in Manitowoc
135
1 County. And it looked as if it had been
2 concealed in some way . There were things around
3 it and they were - - were looking for assistance
4 in recovering the vehicle .
5 Q All right . What did you do?
6 A I talked with him about it. Um, he indicated that
7 the weather was threatening, and for a vehicle , if
8 if it ' s out in the weather , that could jeopardize
9 any , uh , fingerprint evidence , could jeopardize any
10 biological evidence that may be on the outside of the
11 vehicle. I suggested that they get it covered if
12 they could.
13 And I contacted , um, my di r ector, told
14 him about it , and he indicated to me that I
15 should go up and help out with that.
16 Q Did you , in fact, then , eventually leave Madison
17 to help out?
18 A Yes .
19 Q Approximately what time did you leave Madison?
20 A It was about 1:15 p . m. that same day .
21 Q Who, if anyone, accompa ni ed you on this response?
22 A Yes, um, Mr . Guang Zhang, Z- h - a-n- g.

23 Q All right .
24 A He was the photographer and I was the team leader.
25 Q Anyone else accompanied you for this initial
136
1 response?
2 A No, just the two of us .
3 Q What time did you arrive , um, at the salvage
4 yard?
5 A Bel -- I believe it was around 4 p.m.
6 Q What happened when you arrived? What did you do
7 first?
8 A Well, there were several road blocks that we had to
9 pass through. And we finally got to a checkpoint
10 where our names were taken, and then we were directed
11 up to a place where there was some firetrucks, and
12 some canopies laid out , or coming off the firetrucks ,
13 and told to look there for the people who were in
14 charge . And we found , um, Tom Fassbender and Mark
15 Wiegert. And they seemed to be the ones to talk to ,
16 and they filled us in on what they knew so far , and,
17 um, we were directed down to where the vehicle was .
18 Q All right. Let ' s start there , then, uh, your
19 first assignment, if you will. When you arrived
20 at the location where the vehicle was found ,
21 first of all , describe for us the general area
22 where the SUV was located?
23 A Well, it was -- it was a auto salvage yard, so there
24 were row after row after row of salvaged vehicles or
25 junked vehicles. Um, they directed us down to a flat
137
1 area where we drove the van to park and there was a
2 car crusher nea rby. There was also a -- a water
3 storm water retaining pond nearby, and there was a --
4 a little -- sort of a dirt roadway that went around
5 the pond, and the roadway was lined with vehicles,
6 a nd in the row o f vehicles there was the, uh,

7 bluish/green RAV 4 .
8 Q All right. Describe -- Describe the vehicle in
9 greater detail for us , would you please?
10 A Well, it was -- it was a newer looking vehicle. It
11 didn't have any license plates on it . And it was , as
12 was conveyed to me , that it -- it kind of l ooked like
13 it had been hidden i n some way . There was a a
14 Rambler hood leaning up against the back end of it .
15 Q Uh, and I 'm going to stop you right t he re and
16 direct your attention to Exhibit 26 , which

17 appears to be leaning up against the table . Does
18 that look like the hood?
19 A Yes, it does .
20 Q All right. Continue.
21 A Uh , there were tree b ranc hes and /or small trees piled
22 on and against i t , and there was a cardboard box on

23 t he hood. There was a piece of plywood up against
24 one of the front tires , a nd some fence posts with
25 fenc ing attach ed to them, some wire fencing, um,
138
1 leaned up against the vehicle as well.
2 Uh, the other vehicles in the area
3 looked older than this one. This one looked like
4 the newest of the bunch, and they didn't have
5 things leaned up against them . They had trees
6 and brush growing around t hem, but there was
7 nothing put around them.
8 Q Was there anything unusual about the trees or the
9 brush that you observed leaning against the SUV?
10 A Well, this was in November, so there weren't --
11 weren't any leaves or anything on it. But these
12 trees and brush didn't have any bark on them either .
13 And, urn, some of the trees had bits of the roots
14 still coming out of the base of them as if they'd
15 been pulled from the ground, rather than sawed off.
16 Q All right. Was t he roof of the, uh, vehicle
17 covered or obstructed with any items that you
18 recall?
19 A Uh, not that I recal l. No.
20 Q All right. Now, you described something about
21 the weather. Initially , upon your observation of

22 the -- of the vehicle, describe the weather
23 conditions at that point in time?
24 A It was overcast.
25 Q When you first approached, was it still daylight?
139
1 Dusk? Or dark?
2 A It was It was going on 4:30 in November, and it
3 wasn't quite dusk . I would think .
4 Q All right . Now, a t some point did the weather
5 change that evening?
6 A Um, yes. We didn't We left that evening around
7 quarter to ten, and at some point it did pour , and
8 there was quite a lightening storm.
9 Q All right. When you arrived, was the vehicle
10 covered in a tarp at that particular point?
11 A I never saw the vehicle covered in a tarp .
12 Q Okay . Approximately how long were you there
13 before the weather changed to the extent that it
14 began to rain?
15 A I believe within an hour of us arriving , it was sort
16 of on and off showers.
17 Q All right. What plans did you make to secure the
18 vehicle for its ultimate transport?
19 A Well, I asked that a trailer be secured to put the
20 vehicle in for transport back to the Madison
21 Laboratory .
22 Q Now, did that occur immediately or did that
23 involve the passage of some time before it could
24 be arranged to transport the vehicle?
25 A It -- It did take some time . Um, they also needed
140
1 to -- to bring a wrecker truck into the yard to -- to
2 move the vehicle from its, uh, position to a place
3 where they could load it onto the trailer.
4 And I believe those two things, the
5 wrecker and the trailer, arrived pretty much
6 simultaneously . Maybe an hour-and-a-half, two
7 hours . I'm not sure .
8 Q Your best estimate as to the time that the SUV
9 was loaded onto the , uh -- the -- the wrecker and
10 moved from the scene, about what time was that?
11 A I would guess 7:30 to 8 : 00.
12 Q All right . Could it have been later?
13 A Possibly .
14 Q All right . Could it have been as late as 8:30 or
15 9:00?
16 A Well, I checked the time when we left. I think it
17 was about quarter 'til ten, so that -- that is a
18 possibility, yes.
19 Q All right. Now, while you were awaiting for the
20 arrival of the equipment to secure the vehicle
21 and move it to Madison, did you have an
22 opportunity to examine , as i t were, the SUV more
23 closely?
24 A Yes , I did .
25 Q Can you tell us, um , a -- about the vehicle,
141
1 itself? For instance, um, you mentioned
2 something about the absence of license plates.
3 What else did you note about the vehicle?
4 A Um, it The doors were locked. We couldn't gain
5 access to it . And we looked through the glass with
6 flashlights to see what we could see inside and it

7 looked relatively clean inside.
8 Um, there was some minor damage to the

9 vehicle . I believe there was a dent located
10 behind the Rambler hood on the right rear quarter
11 panel. And I believe the left front signal lamp,
12 the plastic that covers that, was cracked and
13 broken.
14 Q How were you able to determine that the doors of

15 the vehicle were locked?
16 A We tried to get in - - inside the vehicle. So we
17 tried the doors.
18 Q While you were waiting for the, uh, wrecker and

19 other equipment, did you also have an opportunity
20 to examine the debris that surrounded the car for

21 the possibility of any trace or biological
22 evidence?
23 A Yes, I did .
24 Q Tell us about that, please?
25 A Well, the first thing I did, was I directed the
142
1 photographer to -- to photograph the vehicle as it
2 was when we arrived. Um, I then looked at the debris
3 and those items which I felt may hold a fingerprint,
4 that did have a certa in texture to t hem . Um, the
5 Rambler hood and the cardboard box were pulled away
6 from the vehicle, and we had transported those to the
7 Madison Lab, as well , along with the vehicle .
8 I examined all the brush and the plywood
9 and fence posts, etc . , looking for any signs of
10 biological materials or fibers that may have
11 caught on them, attached themselves to them . Um,
12 and I didn ' t notice anything that I could collect
13 from t hat.
14 Q So, in other words, you found no trace or
15 biological evidence on any of those items?
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q Okay . I ta ke it there was a decision made not to
18 process , or further examine might be the better
19 term, the SUV at t h e scene ; is that correct?
20 A Um, I don't believe it was much of a -- The -- the
21 decision, yes, that was made . But that -- I mean,
22 in in threa tening weather, the -- the first order
23 lS to to preserve and protect the evidence and not
24 to begin processing it .
25 Q All right .
143
1 A And out in the middle of a junkyard is not the ideal
2 situation to process a vehicle anyway . You can --
3 want to get it back to the laboratory where we have
4 the proper tools and lighti ng and control l ed
5 conditions where we can look at it properly.
6 Q Describe for us, if you would , um , how the
7 vehicle was actually transported to Madison?
8 A A -- a large wrecker truck was needed to get -- get
9 the vehicle out from behind the pond . Uh , it was a
10 four-wheel drive vehicle , and it was -- all the
11 wheels were locked , so they couldn't roll it out .
12 Um, so attempts were made to put it in neutral to see
13 if the parking brake was on or -- or not, and we
14 couldn't get inside .
15 The tow truck guy attempted to get under
16 the hood to get access to the transmission
17 linkage to disconnect that, and he couldn't get
18 the hood open. Uh , he ended up crawling
19 underneath and unbolting one of the driveshafts .
20 He then lifted the back end of the vehicle , which
21 still had the driveshaft attached , and rolled it
22 out on the front wheels into the clear area where
23 the car crusher was located.
24 He then used his truck to maneuver the
25 vehicle, the RAV 4 vehicle , into a large covered
144
1 tra iler, and it was secured into that with, I
2 believe, floor straps , and then the tra iler was
3 closed up.
4 And then Guang Zhang , my photogr apher ,
5 rode with the driver back to Madison . They
6 followed me, and I drove the -- my van back.
7 Q So once the vehicle was loaded on the trailer,
8 was it exposed at all to the elements?
9 A No , it wasn't .
10 Q However, prior to getting it onto the vehicle ,
11 had it been exposed to the rain?
12 A Yes , it did .
13 Q And it had been raining for awhi le before you
14 were able to finally secure it and get it onto
15 the, um -- the wrecker and the enclosed trailer?
16 A Yes, it had .
17 Q All right. Um, you indicated , uh, you r
18 colleague, Mr . Zhang , he rode with the driver,
19 did you say?
20 A Yes, he did .
21 Q All right. And what did you do at that time?
22 A I drove the Field Response Unit back to Madison .
23 Q Your best estimate as to your approximate arrival
24 time at the Crime Lab in Madison?
25 A I believe it was just after 1 a . m.
145
1 Q So that would have been Sunday morning, the 6th
2 of
3 A November.
4 Q -- November . All right . Did there come a time
5 where your services were requested again by Agent
6 Fassbender or others, uh, to return to the

7 salvage yard and assist in executing the search
8 warrant that was underway?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right. And, urn, in addition to the Saturday
11 work that you've just described, how many other
12 days did you participate in the search of the
13 salvage yard and other duties associated with
14 this case?
15 A We returned to the salvage yard on Sunday afternoon .
16 We worked through Sunday evening . We stayed over
17 Sunday night . We worked all day Monday. Stayed over
18 Monday night . Worked all day Tuesday . Stayed over
19 Tuesday night. And returned back to the lab on
20 Wednesday morning.
21 Q I'm going to direct your attention , if I may, to
22 your services on, um, Tuesday, November 8 . What
23 were the duties t hat you were particularly
24 assigned to do on Tuesday, November 8?
25 A Uh, we started in the morning at the Calumet County
146
1 Sheriff's Department Service Garage in Chilton. Om,
2 four -- Actually, five burn barrels from the salvage
3 yard had been taken there, and we had set up a

4 sifting station. We were sifting through the burned
5 debris of those burn barrels. On Tuesday morning, we
6 finished that up with, I believe, the fourth and

7 fifth barrels.
8 Q All right. Would it be fair to say you had
9 started that particular task the day before?
10 Monday?
11 A I believe we started it even before that, although it
12 got interrupted several times.
13 Q Because of other duties that you were assigned?

14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. So you finished up the processing of

16 the burn barrels?
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right. If you would, tell us about the

19 processing of the last barrel? Barrel No. 5?
20 Would you describe, um, that for us, please?

21 A All right. Um, Barrel No. 5, I believe, was, uh,
22 different than the other barrels in that the contents
23 were -- were mostly ash. The other barrels had a lot
24 of partially burned materials, lot of food-type items

25 wrapped in foil . You could recognize corn on the
147
1 cob , and potatoes , and fish , and chicken , and
2 whatnot.
3 This one was a li tt l e different than
4 t h at . It was -- had a lot of, uh , coiled wires
5 in it that we had seen, um , kind of reminiscent
6 of a burnt tire. Uh, t h ere was the rim of a
7 tire, or a wheel sitting on top of the ash. But
8 under that, everything else was pretty much as h .
9 And we sifted that and found things that
10 looked like they were electronic components . Um ,
11 some of them had, um, the Mot -- Motorola "M"
12 clea rly on t hem. Um, t h ings t h at looked like
13 sort of like burnt batteries. Things you could
14 identify as a battery . Um, that sort of thing.
15 Whereas, we hadn't found those sorts of things in
16 the other barrels.
17 Q All righ t . Approximately how deep was the ash in
18 Barrel No. 5 that you began to s ift and process?
19 A I would guess it -- it was a quarter to a third of
20 the barrel. And these were 55-gallon drums . They
21 stand about three-and-a-half feet tall . So there's
22 probably a foot -and-a-half of ash in it.
23 Q All right. And tell us how you went about
24 process i ng t h at barrel? In other words , how d id
25 you go about it? Did you shovel it out? Reach
148
1 in? Sift t h rough with your h ands? Tell us about
2 the process?
3 A Uh, wel l , we start by j ust p ic k i ng through with your
4 hands, and in placing handfuls or -- I thin k we had
5 s mall mason ' s trowels as well. Scoopfuls of the
6 material onto a tripod and screen setup that we have .
7 And you move t h e materi al around o n the screen . The
8 small particles fall out, and then you c a n examine
9 the l arger pieces of things . And t hat's how we
10 worked through the barrels .
11 Q All right . About what time did you finish that
12 task of processing , um, the b arrel?
13 A I believe we f inis hed, um, somewhere in the ten
14 o'clock hour .
15 Q All right . Now, was there anyone who assisted
16 you in this sifting process?
17 A Uh , yes. The photographer t h at I had taken on
18 Sunday , or on Saturday, the initial response , came
19 along with me, and we had a third person as well .
20 Q And who was your third person?
21 A It was Chuck Cates .
22 Q All r ight. And what does Mr . Cates, um -- What
23 was his role , if any , in the process on the
24 succeeding days? Particularly this day, Novembe r
25 8?
149
1 A Urn, he -- he was just there to help .
2 Q All right.
3 A He didn 1 t have any specific role .
4 Q Was there anyone from t he Calumet County
5 Sheriff's Department present?
6 A Urn, there was. I -- I believe there were different
7 people on and off, but the -- the main contact person
8 there was, uh, Jeremy Hawkins .
9 Q And, uh, to whom did you provide anything that
10 you deemed of evidentiary significance?
11 A Uh, we were collecting all the evidence as we went
12 along from the different locations where we were
13 searching .
14 Q Right .
15 A We packaged it, and we -- t hen we -- at some point we
16 turned it all over to the Calumet County Sheriff's
17 Department .
18 Q All right. With respect to the, uh, burn barrel
19 components, were they turned over to Officer
20 Hawkins?
21 A I don 1 t believe so .
22 Q All right. Do you recall wh ich one of the
23 officers?
24 A No. I don't recall whi ch one . There was two or
25 three of them --
150
1 Q All right.
2 A -- at one point, inventor ied all the materials we had
3 collected at that point, and we turned it over to
4 them.
5 Q Okay. Very good. After you completed
6 processing, um, the burn barrel, wha t was the
7 next assignment t hat you were given on that day?
8 A Uh, we returned to the salvage yard, and they had
9 just located the license plates from the RAV 4
10 vehicle . And so we went over and photographed that
11 area, photographed the vehicle that they had been
12 fo und in. And then we searched that area, and there
13 was a a camper -- a trailer camper nearby, and I
14 searched that.
15 Q All right . And, um, after you processed the
16 the location where the license plates were
17 found -- By the way, did you examine those
18 plates? Or did look at them, I should say?
19 A I was involved in -- in packaging them, yes .
20 Q All right. Tell us about that?
21 A Um, Chuck Cates was assigned to, uh, process the
22 vehicle for fingerprints. In -- in his former role
23 at the lab, he was a fingerprint analyst. Um, at

24 this time he was the field response coordinator .
25 That was his chief duty. So he was processing the
151
1 plates.
2 Uh, when the plates were found , they
3 were sort of rolled or crumpled up so you
4 couldn't read them . Uh, the person who had found
5 them , was reported, had opened them up enough to
6 be able to read them and know which ones they
7 were. That they had belonged to the RAV 4. Um,
8 he then reportedly p laced them back where he had
9 fo und them as best he could .
10 Q Right .
11 A Urn, Chuck, then, looked at them for any obvious
12 fingerprints on them .
13 Q Okay.
14 A I don't believe he processed them with powder or
15 anything . Just looked at them. We then placed them
16 into a pistol box and secured them with zip tags.
17 Q All right.
18 A And then secured the box .
19 Q And the box was given to whom? Do you recall?
20 A At that very moment it was placed in our field
21 response van .
22 Q Very good. What was the next assignment or --
23 uh , that you , urn, participated in?
24 A Around 3 p .m., uh, we were -- got a request to use
25 our sifting equipment . They had found an area, a --
152
1 a burn pit type area , behind the garage next to
2 Steven Avery's trailer. And they had been looking in
3 there and they wanted to use our s ifters . We had
4 previously loaned them out for another assignment in
5 the gravel yard, and so they had asked for them
6 again.
7 And at that moment we didn't have
8 anything else to do, so we went along with them
9 to help sift. And it was a -- maybe a
10 four-by-six foot area on the ground . A small
11 depression behind the garage. And it looked like
12 it had been -- uh, some fire going on there .
13 There looked like a lot of the remains of burnt
14 tires, there was the frame from some sort of car
15 seat, and some ash on t h e ground.
16 The ground below the ash looked like it
17 had the consistency of baked clay. Like a
18 ceramic. It was hard. It wasn ' t like -- like
19 you 'd expect the ground to be after thunder
20 storms a few days earlier . So it looked like a
21 burn area. And we sifted that, just as we had
22 been sifting the -- the burn barrel contents.
23 Q All right.
24 A Put it on the screen.
25 Q We'll get into a little more detail in just a
153
1 second here . We're going to have one, uh,
2 photograph, um, marked to assist you in talking
3 about thi s, um, ma tter.
4 (Exhi bi t No . 132 marked f or identification. )
5 Q Officer Wiegert is handing you a photograph .
6 Would you identify that for us, please? First ,

7 of all, tell us what the exhibit number is?
8 A Exhibit 132 .
9 Q Thank you. What is Exhibit 132?
10 A It's a photograph showing the -- the burn area behind
11 the garage. You can ' t see the garage in the photo,
12 but you can see the -- the frame from the -- the car
13 seat. There's one tire there, and some tools on the

14 ground, and some flags in t he ground.
15 Q All right. Um , we have it now projected on our

16 screen. Is , uh, what is projected, is that
17 Exhibit 132?
18 A Um, that one's cropped more than this one is, but,
19 otherwise, yes .
20 Q All right.
21 A The center area of this photo was on the screen .

22 Q How about the larger screen over here to your
23 left?
24 A Well, this one shows -- You can see it better .
25 There ' s a red building behind that tank. That
154
1 doesn't show up well here. You can see t he windows
2 on the photograph .
3 Q Very good. Is that the, uh -- How about, uh, a
4 zoomed out? Is that - -
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- more accurate?
7 A That looks like t he photograph.
8 Q All right. And who participated in the
9 processing of this, um, burn pit?
10 A Uh, t he three of us assisted, and , uh, the person in
11 charge with that area was Tom Sturdivant, Special
12 Agent , with the Division of Criminal Investigations .
13 Q All right . And, um, tell us how you proceeded
14 to, um, uh, proce ss that pit?
15 A Uh , there were also additional officers present who
16 assisted in the sifting process. Uh, I was the one
17 who shoveled the -- t he materials from t he -- the
18 ground up to the sifting platform, and then there
19 were probably four, five, or s ix of us standing
20 around the s ifter at a nytime , urn, collecting things
21 and placing them in boxes. We sifted through all the
22 ash and material that was in that area.

23 Q Now, if you would , um -- If you would, um,
24 describe for us exactly how the s hovel was used
25 to, uh, remove debris and other materials from
155
1 this pit, and, uh -- and brought to the sifter?
2 Tell us about how that was, uh, conducted?
3 A Okay. On the photograph there, we set the sifter up,
4 it would be just, um, past those red flags, and just
5 past the end of that , uh, um, frame from that car
6 seat. Um, the shovel we used was one that we carried
7 with us for this purpose. Um, the sifter we usually
8 use is for exhuming gravesites. So we'll shovel out
9 the material and sift through it looking for bones or
10 bullets or whatever from a gravesite .
11 Uh, in this case, we had, uh, very hard
12 ground on top of which was maybe from zero to six
13 inches of ashen material . It's a flat blade
14 shovel, sort of like a garden spade, and that was
15 used to -- sort of like a dustpan to scoop up the
16 ash, and then I stood up, turned around, and took
17 a step, and set it on the screen. And then
18 the -- the people around the screen would pick
19 through it. The smaller material would fall
20 through the screen onto a tarp, and the large r
21 materials they would collect and put in a box.
22 Q All right. What efforts did you undertake to
23 ensure that you wouldn't damage or create any
24 harm to any of the debris that was being
25 recovered from the pit?
156
1 A Well, it was done carefully. I -- I guess that's
2 what I can say . Um, we didn't look real hard at the
3 materials we were collecting. Um, my advice to the
4 people around -- around the, uh, sifter was, if
5 you're not sure, just put it in the box. Uh, someone
6 else will figure that out later what it is. Um, so
7 we didn't spend time picking at the things that we
8 were collecting .
9 Um, the shovel -- We had a hard surface.
10 It's just pick up the ash with it. I mean, it
11 wasn't like we had to dig and -- and put your
12 foot on it and push down and dig or anything. It
13 wasn't necessary. So it -- it was a pretty
14 gentle process.
15 Q Tell us about the sifting part of the process?
16 A Um, it's a -- sort of like hardware cloth, and we
17 carry it -- three different grades of it . I think
18 there 's a half-inch mesh, a quarter-inch mesh, and an
19 eighth-inch mesh, and we put this material through
20 the quarter-in -- quarter-inch mesh.
21 So one scoopful at a time is placed onto
22 the mesh, and the mesh is probably, uh,
23 three-foot by three-and-a-half - foot rectangular
24 area, and then the five people wou ld, with their
25 gloved hands, uh, I believe some of them had, uh,
157
1 a mason's trowel, it's about this big, triangular
2 metal-shaped object with a handle, to move the
3 the ash on the screen , spread it out, and then
4 you can sort of tap t he screen and it sort of
5 jiggles the materia l, and the -- the finer
6 particles fall through.
7 Q All right. Did you, or any of your team who
8 participated in this process , recognize any of
9 the debris as human remains?
10 A We recognized it as remains for sure. Uh, there were
11 things that looked like teeth . Things that looked
12 like bone. Urn, nothing bigger than the palm of my
13 hand, and -- but whether it was human remains or not,
14 we weren't sure.
15 Q Most of the items were very small?
17 Q All right. Approximately how long did this
18 process last?
19 A Well, they had asked for the sifter for about 3 p . m.,
20 and we worked until it got dark. It was just after
21 five . So about t wo hours.
22 Q All right. And what did you do at the scene as
23 you wrapped up this, um, processing for t hat
24 evening?
25 A Well, once we had sifted all the materials, then we
158
1 had what was co l lected in boxes. We packaged that
2 up. That was eventually turned over to Calumet
3 County . The -- the material that was fallen through
4 the screen onto the tarp was also saved, and Tom
5 Sturdivant took care of that . And we just cleaned up
6 the sifter and put it away, and then we proceeded
7 onto our next task.
8 Q How was the, um, material preserved that had
9 fallen through the screen?
10 A It was fallen through onto a tarp , and it's my
11 understanding that Tom Sturdivant was going to keep
12 that. How he did that, I -- I don't know.
13 Q All right. In other words, you, uh, left that
14 scene before the -- the complete wrap-up, as it
15 were, had undertaken?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Was undertaken? All right . What was the next
18 ass i gnment, then, that you performed, um, on this
19 day, Tuesday, November 8?
20 A Uh, we were then asked to -- to do some luminol
21 te sting on a couple of r e sidences. Uh, Ste v e n
22 Avery's residence, Chuck Avery's residence, and the
23 garage next to Steven Avery's residence.
24 Q All right. Let me stop you there. And if you
25 would be so kind as to explain to us, fir st o f
159
1 all, what luminol is, and then, uh -- Well, we'll
2 start with that. What is luminol?
3 A Okay. Uh, luminol's a chemical that, when it comes
4 in contact with blood, will glow . So we use it to
5 find traces of usually highly diluted blood or very
6 small blood amounts. Uh, if there's larger amounts
7 of blood, or whatever, they're usually pretty obvious
8 because blood has a a distinctive color.
9 Urn, we had already searched the Avery
10 residence for -- looking for a bloodstain pattern
11 and we hadn't found any. We had found blood
12 staining, but nothing -- nothing that wou ld
13 indicate a pattern. Um, there had been talk
14 about luminolling the, uh, residence earlier in
15 the week. I had recommended that that be your
16 last -- the last thing you do in attempt to find
17 blood .
18 Urn, this treatment with luminol will
19 leave a luminol residue, and then you don't
20 want -- really want to be, uh, going in there and
21 doing other things after you've luminolled. And
22 treatment with luminol should come after a
23 thorough visual search. It shouldn't be your
24 first attempt.
25 Q All right.
160
1 A So we went in and lurninolled the res idence . We
2 foun d, urn, just a couple of stains on the couch that
3 we had missed v i sually. Urn, we then lurninolled the
4 garage and we found a lot of lurninol reactive stains
5 in the garage that we couldn't confirm with another
6 test.
7 Q All right. Let me stop you there and ask : You
8 indi -- uh, you told us just a few moments ago
9 that luminol reacts to blood?
10 A Yes .
11 Q Let me ask this: Does lurninol chemically react
12 with substances other than blood?
13 A Yes, it does .
14 Q What substances will the luminol r eact to?
15 A It -- it reacts with, actually, quite a few di fferent
16 substances. Um, uh, one thing would be a shiny
17 penny , is what we quite often use as a positive to
18 make sure the lurninol's working okay. If the penny
19 g lows, the luminol's working . It's actually the iron
20 in the heat molecule in the blood that the luminol's
21 reacting with .
22 So pennies , copper, lead . Um, I've
23 never seen it with a -- with rusty iron-type
24 stains, but it's reported that it might. Um,
25 the -- the big thing that we see quite often is
161
1 cleaning reagents that have some sort of bleach
2 in them . It reacts quite vigorously with that.
3 Q Of all the substance -- Of all the substances
4 that you mentioned , uh, the blood, the, uh -- the
5 copper, iron, and bleach, which are the
6 substances which substances did the luminol

7 react most vigorously to?
8 A Well, with the bleach, but depending on the
9 concentrat i on o f of the bleach.
10 Q All right . Does it react with, um, gasoline or
11 paint thinner?
12 A No, it doesn't.
13 Q All right. Okay . Let's return, then, back to
14 the garage. You indicated there were several
15 spots where you had luminol reactions. Let's
16 pick it up there and have you tell us about it,
17 please?
18 A Most of the spots looked like -- sort of like a maybe
19 inch, inch-and-a-half diameter circle. Uh, when you
20 do this, the glowing that comes from the luminol
21 reaction is -- is very weak. So you always want to
22 do it in complete darkness if possible.
23 And what you do is use a spritz bottle .
24 You spray an area , and you have a piece of chalk
25 in your other hand, if anything glows, you circle
162
1 it. And you work through an area, and then you
2 go back and sample those areas you've circled
3 with chalk, and do another more specific test for
4 blood. It's cal l ed phenolphthalein . And if it
5 reacts with the phenolphthalein, that's an
6 i ndicat ion that there may be enough material
7 there to do DNA on, and then you would collect
8 that.
9 Uh, in the garage , uh, only one area,
10 was right behind the vehi c le that's on the screen
11 there, was confirmed with phenolphthalein.
12 Q You're referring to, uh, Exhibit 76 now, which
13 is, um, depicted on the screens?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. And, um, I believe there's a laser
16 pointer, uh, right there in front of you. Um,
17 first of all, let's start wi th the -- If you
18 could use that, um, computer animation, which is
19 refl ected in Exhibit 76, and , urn, probably easier
20 to point to the larger screen, point out the spot
21 where you did have one positive reaction to
22 phenolphthalein?
23 A You actually can' t -- I can't poi nt to it because
24 it -- it's right below the bump - - back bumper of
25 that vehicle --
163
1 Q All right.
2 A -- on the floor.
3 Q Okay .
4 A And there were other people there, and when we turned
5 the lights back on and started checking the stains
6 that we had circled in chalk, they said, yes, we --
7 we had found that earlier visually. We have
8 collected that one. So we didn't collect that.
9 Q All right. Because it had already been
10 processed --
11 A It had already
12 Q by others?
13 A been collected .
14 Q All right. Now, you indi cated that there were
15 several spots. Um, if you can recall, uh,
16 approximately -- Um, using this same diagram, if
17 you would just briefly point us -- point to
18 several of those spots where you did get luminol
19 reactions, um, which did not test positive for
20 phenolphthalein?
21 A I can't point to any specifically.
22 Q All right.
23 A There were just small spots here and there. Sort of
24 a random distribution. Not a lot by the door . Not a
25 lot by the -- the snowmobile . Uh , there was -- there
164
1 was one area that did stand out.
2 Q All right. What area was that?
3 A It was behind this tractor lawnmower here, and it --
4 it wasn't just a -- a small spot. It's a -- maybe
5 a -- a -- a three-by-three or three-by-four foot area
6 that was more of a smeary diffuse reaction with the
7 luminol. The light was coming from, seemingly,
8 everywhere, not just this little spot.
9 Q Would that be somet hing like a three-by- four foot
10 oval? Was it a circular shape? Square-shaped?
11 Or any particular
12 A Well --
13 Q irregular?
14 A It sort of went up into the debris here. So that
15 would have been the extent of it . And then coming
16 out sort of, um, maybe oval on the open side .
17 Q All right . When you made that observation , what
18 did you do?
19 A We marked off the area in chalk and we saw the - - the
20 luminescence. Then , later, we went back with the
21 and swabbed it , tried to confirm the presence of
22 blood with phenolphthalein, and we could not .
23 Q All right. Just one moment. After you made the
24 observation with respect to this larger area that
25 reacted to the luminol, what did you do?
165
1 A After I made the observation?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Well, upon seeing it , we marked off the perimeter
4 with chalk .
5 Q All right. And you tried the phenolphthalei n
6 test?
7 A Tried the phenolphthalein test.
8 Q Did you report your findings to any of the law
9 enforcement officers?
10 A Well, there were some in there with us.
11 Q Do you recall who , um, might have been with you
12 that night?
13 A I do not recall their names .
14 Q All right .
15 A They had been in there previously. They were the
16 ones who told us that the stain behind the -- the
17 vehicle had already been col l ected .
18 Q I se~ . All right . Your best estimate ,
19 approximately how many spots reacted to the
20 luminol in that garage area?
21 A I would guess, um, a dozen.
22 Q All right . Now, the -- You talked about the one
23 large spot . The remaining spots, can you give us
24 a range as to their varying size?
25 A I would say they were all inch-ish. Inch or
166
1 inch-and-a-half diameter . Smaller .
2 Q All right. All 11 were in that inch to
3 inch-and-a-half range?
4 A Yes .
5 Q All right.
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : I would move into
7 intro -- uh , evidence the one , uh , exhibit, 1
8 132, and , uh -- t he photograph, and tender the
9 witness f or cross - examination .
10 THE COURT : Any objection to reception of
11 132?
13 THE COURT : It is received. You may cross.
16 Q Uh, Mr . Ertl , were you referring to any notes
17 while you were testifying?
18 A Yes, I was.
19 Q I not ice you're looki ng down .
20 A Okay .
21 Q That -- that ' s all right. You needed to
22 refresh -- It's been several years since -- or
23 year-and-a-ha lf si nce
24 A Year- and-a-half . And h e 's asking for times so ...
25 Q Did you want to be accurate?
167
1 A Yes.
2 Q And these are the same notes you previously
3 provided to the State?
4 A The notes I'm staring at right here are not --
5 Q So these are
6 A notes
7 Q just some handwritten notes? Maybe summary of
8 the notes you previously provided to the --
9 A Yes .
10 Q -- State?
11 A Notes that I've been jotting down while I've been
12 waiting to come on .
13 Q That's fine . Okay. When you were called to the
14 scene, this would be the first time, November 5,
15 urn, essential ly your involvement on November 5
16 was to deal with the RAV 4 ; is that correct?
18 Q And you indicated that you attempted to enter
19 i nto the RAV 4, but unable to do so?
20 A Correct .
21 Q So there's no way you could have been able to
22 process anything within the vehicle?

23 A No . We wanted to just open the door and loo k inside .
24 Q Was your intent to process any of the vehicle,
25 itself, when you were called?
168
1 A No. Just to -- They had indicated it had been
2 obscured with things . So the intent was to check out
3 what those things were, look at them, and the n to
4 bring back to the lab anything that we -- we thought
5 was inform going to be useful.
6 Q Well, you noted that you were aware tha t the
7 weather was going to turn , and -- Well, it's
8 going to rain later?
9 A Yes .
10 Q And this was, uh, a -- probably a project you
11 needed to get done before the vehicle, i tself ,
12 got rained on?
13 A Ideally, yes.
14 Q Was -- And was there a tarp being utilized at
15 t hat point to hopefully keep the rain f rom the
16 vehicle?
17 A I was told that they had covered it with a tarp and
18 that they were removing it once they knew we would --
19 had arrived on t he scene.
20 Q Okay .
21 A And they also tol d me that there had bee n some debris
22 on the roof that got pulled off when they pulled the
23 tarp down.
24 Q Did you, uh a -- and, again , you -- you're
25 indicated that your intent wasn't necessarily to
169
1 process the vehicle, but noting that it was going
2 to rain, uh, did you consider maybe we should
3 process the out -- the exterior to some extent to
4 avoid lo s ing potential evidence?
5 A No. Uh, my hope was that we could get it inside of a
6 trailer before it rained.
7 Q Now, you did remove the -- some of the items that
8 were up against the vehicle; correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And you did that with some sort of methodology?
11 You didn't just -- Let 's rip them all away from
12 the car? One at a time you removed them?
13 A Correct.
14 Q In fact, you indicated you wanted to look at, uh,
15 further , the hood and -- a nd the cardboard box,
16 since there -- I'm going to assume -- may be some
17 sort of trace evidence on -- on those items?
18 A I thought that if any of the items wou ld hold a
19 fingerprint, those would be the ones.
20 Q Now, you had in -- indicated -- And I -- I -- And
21 I just want to cross -- Or maybe I didn't
22 understand you correctly . When, uh, Attorney
23 Fallon asked you if there was any trace ev
24 evidence that you were able to find, you
25 indicated, no?
170
1 A Correct .
2 Q But you hadn't yet processed the hood or the
3 cardboard box; correct?
4 A No. I was going to collect those items. Those would
5 be examined back at the lab .
6 Q So they may have had trace evidence? You had no
7 idea?
8 A Right .
9 Q That was sent back to the lab. Let the lab look
10 at those?
11 A Correct.
12 Q You were talking about some of the debris?
13 A Right.
14 Q The branches?
15 A Right .
16 Q Now, obviously, the vehicle didn't just come out
17 of the sky and drop right into that spot;
18 correct?
19 A Correct .
20 Q I think we can assume that, though no one saw
21 that? So it had to get there somehow?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Did you -- In processing the scene, you indicated
24 you were looking around for trace evidence
25 outside the vehicle? Did you try to make a
17 1
1 determination of how it got there?
2 A I did . I looked from where the tires were resting
3 towards the front . It didn't -- didn ' t seem t hat
4 t ha t would have been a possibili t y because there was
5 another vehicle in front of it.
6 Um , looki ng towards the back is probably
7 t he direction it came in from . I tried to look
8 for tread marks . Uh , it was a grassy area , and
9 below that was hard-packed gravel. And I wasn't
10 abl e to -- to even see t he t ire prints from the
11 vehicle , which, I would assume, had to have been
12 there .
13 Q Okay . Did you go a ny distance away from the
14 vehicle, um, to try to trace potent i ally some of
15 the path to see if t h ere might be additional
16 trace evidence you could find?
17 A I didn ' t get very far. It -- it seems pretty futile
18 in that I couldn't even see the -- any -- any
19 indication from beneath the tire. Uh, I did look
20 aro und. There were some areas were a little bit more
21 c l earer and , perhaps , a puddle had been there and it
22 was more of a -- a smoother surface .
23 Uh, I -- I didn't see a ny footwear
24 impressions . I didn' t see any t ire track
25 impressions that I could discern .
172
1 Q And -- and footwear impressions, you would
2 assume, again, because it didn't magically
3 appear, whoever brought the vehicle there would
4 have to have maybe left on foot?
5 A Correct.
6 Q But unable to find anything that wou l d ass i st you
7 in that?
8 A Correct. There were some footwear impressions on --
9 on top of the vehicle next to the -- the RAV 4. I
10 was I was tol d that those were from the officers
11 who had been removing the tarp.
12 Q So you -- you don't know if there were any, uh

13 Strike that. On November 8, you indicated you
14 were involved with two processes in -- of -- of
15 sifting debris, urn -- or sifting ash, excuse me .
16 One was in the barrels; correct?
17 A Correct .
18 Q And one was assisting with the, uh - - the burn
19 area or the burn pit; correct?

20 A That's' correct.
21 Q As to the burn barrels, um, you indicated t hat

22 the process was essentially going in there with
23 either handfuls or taking a
24 A Trowel .
25 Q A -- a -- What was it?
173
1 A Trowel.
2 Q A trowel? Okay. And that was consistent among
3 all of the individuals assisting in the -- the
4 burn barrel sifting?
5 A Yes .
6 Q Did each person have their own separate barrel?
7 Did you go barrel by barrel?
8 A We went barrel by barrel.
9 Q So you didn't have teams off on their own doing
10 it? That was together? You're doing it one
11 after the other?
12 A Right .
13 Q Is --
14 A There were three of us doing that .
15 Q Okay. All -- Was -- Wasn't you didn't have a l ot
16 o f people to help anyways?
17 A No.
18 Q And took -- You said it took you some time over
19 three days because you were called to other
20 spots?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, you indicated at times you would take some
23 of the larger items out by hand?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And then you would scoop out a -- a layer of ash?
174
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you try to take it by layers?
3 A Well, it's a barrel. You -- you pretty much have to
4 work down, so, yeah, we would go bit by bit.
5 Q Well , what I mean is, you know, it is -- like you
6 say , it's a barrel, and you could go with one
7 full layer, or you could just keep scooping down
8 in the middle and off to the sides? Ki nd of
9 haphazardly?
10 A No, we -- we'd try to work down. So then we --
11 Q You tried to do it somewhat organized? Logical?
12 A Well, I mean, what 1 s on top is -- is -- that 's what
13 you take. You know, try to dig to the bottom leaving
14 the top .
15 Q Well, now, you -- you said this was a pretty
16 full , or three-quarters , or two-thirds f ull
17 barrel?
18 A Well, the fifth barrel was a -- like, one-quarter to
19 one-third full .
20 Q Okay . And you don't know how many times these
21 barrels had been used over the last, let's say,
22 several months?
23 A No idea.
24 Q Could have been used 10, 15 times , potentially?
25 Or just once?
175
1 A I have no idea.
2 Q So you don't know when items were burned in the
3 barrel; right?
4 A No, I don't .
5 Q Could you tell by going down layer by layer
6 versus just scooping away through the barrel?
7 A If you assume that the person doing the burning never
8 mixes the contents, then I would -- I would guess,
9 yes, you could determine which was burned last . That
10 would be the closest to the top.
11 Q Was -- was that something you thought about that
12 maybe that would be important to note? Or felt
13 wasn't necessary?
14 A Um, at that point, no. We -- When we collected, we
15 collected everything from a given barrel together.
16 Q Okay. In regards to the license plate, you
17 indicated that you processed the license plate .
18 That's the term you used. Wha t do you mean by
19 processed the license plate?
20 A No. I would -- I said that the -- the fingerprint
21 analyst , who was wi th us , was given t he task to
22 process the vehicle . He examined the license plate,
23 but I don't believe he processed them at the scene.
24 Q So if I were to say, using it i n that context,
25 processing, you would assume processing would be
176
1 use the -- the powder to extract the potential
2 extract? The potential fingerprint; correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q But he didn ' t do that?
5 A He did that with the vehicle . He did not do that
6 with the license plate .
7 Q Okay. And do you know wha t happened to the
8 license plate?
9 A I packaged it in a pistol box, sealed it, and t urned
10 it over to Calumet County .
11 Q So you don't know if it made its way to the Crime
12 Lab, eventually?
13 A I don't know .
14 Q That's not your job?
15 A No .
16 Q In regards to t h e burn pit , were -- were you
17 keeping track of where you were scooping items of
18 ash from the pit as far as what point in the pit?
19 For instance, if you gridded out the pit?
20 A No. Om, the -- t he pi t was most accessible from the
21 position where we set up the tripod . It was level
22 with the -- the surrou ndi ngs there. Urn, it was sort
23 of a depression compared to the - - the other three
24 sites. So we began at the accessible area and worked
25 our way towards the inaccessible area .
177
1 Q So where an item was located wasn't as important
2 as whether there was potential evidential value
3 to anything that was found in that pit?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Did you -- When you indicate -- And, again, maybe
6 you didn't do this part. Uh , when you packaged
7 what was sifted from the burn pit, d id it go to
8 the Crime Lab from there?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q You weren't in that -- i nvolved in that process?
11 A No, I wasn't.
12 Q Were you involved in the process -- involved, uh,
13 in regards to the car seat that was found? Was
14 that taken to the Crime Lab as far as you know?
15 A I don 't believe so. I don' t know .
16 Q Okay . You testified i n regards to luminol. Now,
17 that can react with human or animal blood;
18 correct?
19 A Yes .
20 Q So, for instance, hypothetically, if someone were
21 skinning a deer in the garage, and cleaned up
22 afterwards, it might react to luminol?
23 A That's true.
24 Q You -- You commented that oftentimes it's a way
25 to detect diluted blood? Or -- Is that correct?
1 78
1 A Yes.
2 Q By that you mean if someone , for instance, had
3 washed, for instance , the gar -- the garage
4 floor, pos sib l y f i nd blood , that wouldn't be
5 readily, uh , uh , noticeable to the naked eye?
6 A That is correct .
7 Q And that could be with anything? Not just the --
8 a garage floor? You could do that with a table,
9 for ins tance?
10 A Yes .
11 Q Clothing?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay . Did you do the luminol spray on the entire
14 garage floor?
15 A No. Some of the garage floor wasn't accessible due
16 to the presence of a lot of stuff .
17 Q Okay. Anything that was exposed , though, you
18 were able to spray the luminol on?
19 A Yes . And we di d go underneath the vehicle there,
20 because we could spray under it and see what was
21 there -- going on in there . We did not go under the
22 snowmobile or the tractor .

23 Q Did -- You did indicate that it would also react
24 to lead?
25 A Yes .
179
1 Q Potentially?
2 A Potentially .
3 Q So, hypothetically, a lead bullet may end up
4 if -- might react to a luminol spray with that
5 glow?
6 A Yeah, it's possible.
7 Q In In the picture, urn, behind the lawnmower,
8 is where you indicated was that three-by-four
9 foot area that seemed to be entirely in the
10 glow
11 A Yes .
12 Q -- of luminol?
13 A Yes .
14 Q To the right of that seems to be lot of items .
15 Boxes , etc . ?
16 A Yes .
17 Q Did you spray luminol there as well, since it
18 was -- abutted that area you found?
19 A Maybe a foot , foot - and-a-half above the floor . But
20 we didn't -- We didn't You couldn't access that
21 area to move into it. It was packed full. We didn't
22 attempt to clear it , or to look behind it, or to
23 examine those items .
24 Q But the boxes, themselves, show that the items
25 that were stacked up there you were able to
180
1 spray?
2 A To some extent.
3 Q Were you able -- Did you receive any positive,
4 uh, um, results, uh , from any of those items that
5 you might have sprayed?
6 A I don't believe so .
7 Q Okay. Nothing f u rther . Thank you .
8 THE COURT : Any redirect , Counsel?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON : None . Thank you .
10 THE COURT : You may step down .
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Your
13 ATTORNEY FALLON: State
14 THE COURT : -- next --
15 ATTORNEY FALLON : State would call
16 William Newhous e .
17 THE CLERK : Please raise your righ t hand.
18 WILLIAM NEWHOUSE ,
19 called as a witness herein , having been f irs t dul y
20 sworn, was examined and testified as follo ws :
23 THE WITNESS : It 's Will iam L . Newhouse.
24 And then it ' s N-e-w-h-o-u- s - e .
181
2 Q How are you employed?
3 A I'm employed as a firearms and toolmark examiner in
4 the Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory in Madison,
5 Wisconsin .
6 Q What does a firearms and toolmarks examiner do?
7 A In general terms, uh, we're asked to examine physical
8 evidence that's been recovered in the course of some
9 kind of a criminal investigation, answer questions
10 about that evidence , whether or not it's pertinent to
11 the investigation, and then , of course , report about
12 those examinations in our findings .
13 A little more specifically, as a
14 firearms and toolrnark examiner, most of the
15 physical evidence that I examine is going to be
16 related to the firing of a gun. So I'm going to
17 be looking at guns, of course, I'll examine
18 bullets, cartridge casings . I do gunpowder
19 residue examinations and -- and studies, uh, just
20 trying to answer questions about how that
21 evidence relates to that particular criminal
22 investigation.
23 Q All right . How is that you are involved in this
24 case , Mr. Newhouse?
25 A Well, there were a -- a number of items of evidence
182
1 recovered in the course of -- of this homicide
2 investigation that were, uh, submitted to t he
3 laboratory for ana lys is . Uh , several of those were
4 firearms related .
5 Q All right . How many examinat ions , uh, i n total

6 did you do for the investigators in this case?
7 A There was a rifle that was submitted . Oh, there
8 were, I think, 11 cartridge casings -- fired
9 cartridge casings -- and two bullets that were al l
10 submitted for my examination .
11 Q All right. And, um, before we have you explain
12 your findings , let's , uh, find out a little bit
13 about yourself. I'm going to have, um,
14 Investigator Wiegert, uh, hand you Exhibit 133 .
15 And what is Exhibit 133, please?
16 A Exhibit 133 is a curriculum vitae. It 's a
17 description of my training , my background, my work
18 experience .
19 Q All right. And, um, I believe there is one , um,
20 typo that we may have to clarify regarding the
21 time spent at the , uh, California Department of

22 Justice in in terms of your years there --
23 A Um
24 Q versus Kansas City experience?
25 A There were a -- there were a couple of typos that --
183
1 that I had noted . Uh, in California, I was there, as
2 it indicates, from 1972, uh , to , actually, 1981 , and ,
3 um and then I went to Montana in 1981 . Was there
4 until 1 998 . And then in Kansas City from 1988 until
5 I came to, uh, Wisconsin in September of 2002 .
6 Q All right . Um , first of a ll, um , do you have an
7 undergraduate degree, sir?
8 A I do .
9 Q And, um, what is your degree i n?
10 A I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in physics .
11 Q Um, from what university?
12 A From Purdue Unive rs ity .
13 Q Um, did you purs ue, urn, graduate courses beyond
14 that?
15 A I took some graduate courses after I received my
16 Bachelor of Science Degree . Uh , some of those were
17 in physics .
18 Q All right. And, um, i n terms of, uh, your
19 experience as a firearms and toolmark examiner,
20 where did you begin your career?
21 A Um, I accepted a position with the California
22 Department of Justice i n t h e Sacramento Laboratory in
23 Augus t of 1972 . Didn 1 t really get acquainted with
24 firearms and toolmarks immediately . I was t rained i n
25 a couple of other areas of t h e laboratory, um , until
184
1 about 19 -- I think the fall of 1973, when I took
2 a -- a course, taught by one of the examiners there
3 in the laboratory, that dealt with kind of the
4 history of firearms and too lmark identification, and
5 how it related to criminal justice .
6 And then in the fall of -- of 1974, I
7 went through the training program that they had
8 in place in the Sacramento Laboratory at that
9 time for firearms and toolmar k examiners . I t was
10 a two-and-a-half or three-month program as I
11 recall . Um, I completed that successfully, and
12 in January of 1975 , was asked to take, um, a
13 course that dealt with the theory of
14 iden t ification, um, how is it we can look at a
15 bullet, or a cartridge casing, or any kind of
16 toolmark , and really answer questions about what
17 tool or what weapon caused the markings that we
18 observed on those items.
19 Uh, completed that course successfully.
20 I think the next week I was over in San Mateo
21 Crime -- Crime Laboratory on another three-day

22 course that dealt with ammunition problems and
23 automatic weapons.
24 And then having completed that series of
25 courses in May of 1975, I was assigned to the
185
1 firearms and toolmark section of the Sacramento
2 Laboratory . And until I left there, I was
3 responsible for most of the firearms and oth

4 and toolmark case work that left that laboratory.
5 There were other examiners that could do that

6 kind of work, and did. I worked in there full
7 time until I left there and went to, um, the
8 Montana State Crime Laboratory in -- I think it
9 was January, 1981 .
10 Q All right. In terms of , uh, your California
11 experience, in particular the Sacramento Lab, how
12 many other examiners did you work with in that

13 lab ?
14 A Um, there were probably, a nytime there, three or four

15 other examiners -- um, we called -- they're called
16 criminalists in California -- uh, who were trained
17 and capable of doing firearms cases.

18 Uh, most of them did not do those full
19 time . They did them as they encountered them in
20 their wo rk in other kinds of disciplines in the
21 laboratory . Uh, but I was the -- for that

22 period, the single examiner who worked full time
23 in the -- in the, uh, fi re -- firearms and
24 toolmark section.
25 Q All right . And , um, after you left California,
186
1 what was your, next , um, uh, experience?
2 A I went to the Montana State Crime Laboratory, uh,
3 that was in January of 1981 , and become -- became
4 that state's firearms and toolmark examiner .
5 Q All right. And t hen, um, you mentioned something
6 about , uh, Kansas City , Missouri? Tell us about
7 that?
8 A In November of 19 -- Is that right? Uh , November, I
9 thin k, of 1 988, um, I accept ed a position in t he --
10 the Kansas City Police Department Crime Laboratory in
11 Kansas City, Missouri , as one of four firearms
12 e xaminers in that laboratory .
13 Q And I believe you indicate d you , uh, came to
14 Wiscons in in September, 2000 ?
15 A Urn, I think it was 2002.
16 Q All right .
17 A Yes.
18 Q And , urn , you are based in the Madison off ice?
19 A Yes .
20 Q All right . And, urn , do you have any estimate for
21 us as to approximately how many times you've been
22 asked to come to a court of law and render expert
23 opinion regarding firearms identification?
24 A Um, I know it ' s been more than 300 times i n the
25 course of the 30-some years that I 've -- I ' ve been
187
1 doing the work.
2 Q All right. Um , are you a member of any
3 professional associations or affiliations that
4 you find, uh, useful and practical in the field
5 of, uh, firearms identification?
6 A Yes, I am.
7 Q Tell us about those, please?
8 A I'm a member of the Association of Firearms and
9 Toolmark Examiners . Urn, it is the -- the single
10 professional organization, international
11 organization, for a firearms and toolmark examiner ,
12 um, that is focused, specifically, on that area of
13 forensics.
14 Q All right. From time to time, have you taken any
15 courses to maintain, um, currency in the
16 literature and in the science of firearms
17 identification?
18 A Urn, there are couple of things that we can do. Uh,
19 in terms of formal courses, while I was in Montana,
20 um, I had the opportunity to go to the FBI Academy .
21 I took and completed a week- long course there that
22 dealt with specialized techniques in firearms

23 identification.
24 Urn, beyond that, a -- attending the --
25 the -- the AFTE, or the -- the Association of
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1 Firearms and Toolmark Examiners meetings. Uh,
2 those are training seminars. A lot of it, of
3 course -- Most of it is papers and research being
4 presented to those of us who attend. And I've
5 gotten to do that of and on over the years as
6 well .
7 Q All right. Very well. Let's begin, then. First
8 of all, tell us what firearms identification is
9 or i nvo l ves?
10 A Urn, well, as I said, I 'm examining evidence that's
11 been recovered in in -- in investigations or
12 crimes that involve the shooting of a firearm.
13 Clearly, I'm going to be involved with firearms, be
14 examining firearms. I'm test-firing them in the
15 laboratory, uh, determining whether they function or
16 don't function, or whether they've been altered.
17 Additionally, we recover bullets and
18 cartridge casings , um, from scenes, from
19 autopsies, and there is always the question, when
20 we have a gun recovered, of whether that bullet
21 or the cartridge casing, if it's recovered, have
22 been fired from the particular gun that was
23 recovered.
24 In those cases where we might not have a
25 gun recovered, I answer other questions. Was
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1 there only one gun involved in this shooting?
2 Was there more than one gun involved in this
3 shooting ? Those questions are a l l answered by
4 examinations of the bullets and cartridge
5 casings, and, where possible, the test-fi ring of
6 t he weapon in the laboratory.
7 Finally, t h e other area of -- of
8 firearms and toolmarks t ha t I 'm involved in, is
9 involved with gunpowder residues, answering
10 questions about distances, where I can, uh ,
11 between a victim and t h e muzzle of the weapon
12 when it was fired .
13 Q All right . Well , let's begin, I thi nk , by
14 defining some terms, um, for many of us who may
15 not be all that famili ar wi th firearms. Um,
16 first of all , tell us , what is a cartridge?
17 A Um, if you're going to fire a gun, you have to load
18 the cartri dge int o the weapon, and the cartridge is
19 designed for the particular weapon in wh ich it's
20 goi ng to be fired .
21 Usually a cartridge consists of, say ,
22 four components. One of them is going to be the
23 projecti le or the -- or the bullet. Um ,
24 sometimes i t's ca l led a slug.
25 Uh , one component wi l l be t he cartridge
190
1 casing , in which the bullet is mounted.
2 Another component is the g unpowder .
3 When the cartridge fires, it's the gunpowder
4 inside the cartridge that expl odes, and that's
5 what forces the bullet out of the barrel of the
6 weapon, and , of cours e , down range and in the
7 direction that the weapon is pointed.
8 The last component , the mos t modern
9 ammuniti on, is goi ng to be something called a
10 primer. And this is just a -- another compound,
11 not dissimilar to gunpowder, but chemically
12 different . That is , very shoc k sensitive . And
13 that when struck by a part of the gun designed t o
14 strike the cartridge , will cause the the
15 primer to explode , set the gunpowder on fire,
16 essentially cause that to explode , and then we
17 have a gun firing .
18 Q All right . How is a cartridge then fired from a
19 weapon?
20 A Well, you're going to -- going to have to load the
21 cartridge in one manner or a nother into the -- a
22 particular part of the weapon . Uh, you're going to
23 have to cock the weapon , or arm it , and this is all
24 defined by how that weapon i s des igned .
25 And then , to actuall y fire the
191
1 cartridge , assuming the gun's working properly,
2 you have to generally pull the trigger. And
3 pulling that trigger causes a part of the gun to
4 strike the cartridge and causes the cartridge,
5 then, to explode and the bullet to be fired .
6 Q All right. Where does the , um -- the firing
7 pin or how does that figure into the actual
8 firing of the cartridge?
9 A Well, that part of t he gun that actually strikes the
10 cartridge and causes it to fire is wha t we call a --
11 a firing pin. In certain weapons it might be called
12 a striker. Essentially, what it is, is a piece of
13 metal that, when the trigger is pulled, is released
14 and allowed to strike the cartridge .
15 Q What happens to a , uh the cartridge? Or, uh,
16 perhaps , a better way of asking it is what
17 happens to the bullet which is mounted in the ,
18 uh, casing or the cartridge once the weapon is
19 fired?
20 A Well, the bullet, which initially is mounted in the
21 cartridge, is propelled by the gases created by the
22 explosion of the gunpowder, is propelled down t he
23 barrel of the weapon, and, of course, whatever
24 direction the gun's pointed at is the direction that
25 the bullet is go ing to be projected.
192
1 Q All right. Generally, what happens to the
2 cartridge, itself, once the bullet is expelled?
3 A Once you fired your cartridge, you now have -- and

4 t he bullet's on its way -- you have l eft in t he gun
5 the cartridge casing. What happens to t he cartridge
6 casing after you fired the gun is -- is determined by
7 how that weapon is designed.
8 I n a semi-automatic weapon, whether a

9 handgun, or a ri f le, or a shotgun, that cartridge
10 casing is going to be extracted and ejected from
11 the weapon. Out of the weapon and onto the

12 ground .
13 Um, if i t's a revolver, certain other
14 kinds of handguns , the cartridge may stay --

15 cartridge casing may remain i n the weapon, and
16 then you may have to actually extract it from the
17 weapon manually .
18 Q Now, there's some other terms and phrases that I
19 thi nk are bandied about quite a bit in, um,
20 mainstream media and television . And these are
21 terms called lands and grooves . Do you recognize
22 those terms and, if so , tell us wha t they are?

23 A Yeah . Um , if you look down the barrel of -- of any
24 modern weapon , with the exception of a shotgun , uh ,
25 what you'll notice is that there are grooves in the
193
1 barrel. And we're talking about the inside of the
2 barrel, and the barrel of the weapon i s just a tube,
3 and inside that barrel, they -- they've -- in the
4 manufacture of the barrel, they've put these grooves
5 in there.
6 You probably a l so notice that they are
7 twisted as you look down there. We call those
8 grooves, of course, ''grooves". We call the areas
9 between the grooves in the barrel, lands. That's
10 1-a-n-d-s. I'm not sure where the term ever came
11 from and never heard a really good story for it.
12 When I'm looking at bullets, what I see
13 are land and groove impressions, but they're
14 created by contact between the bullet and the
15 inside of the barrel of that weapon.
16 Q Given that, what, um how a cartridge is
17 filed or -- or, excuse me, how a cartridge is
18 fired in a weapon, and these lands and grooves,
19 what is it that makes the actual identification,
20 for instance, of, uh -- of a bullet as having
21 been fired by a particular gun possible?
22 A Well, what makes it possible, ultimately, is the
23 manufacturing process used to create the -- the
24 barrel of the gun, um, in the case of a bullet, or
25 other parts of the weapon that come into contact with
194
1 the cartridge casing .
2 Uh, if I'm asked to determine whether a
3 bullet was fired from a particular gun, the way

4 I'm going to do t hat, eventually, is by putting a
5 test-fired bullet, one I fired in the laboratory

6 from that gun, and one that I know has been
7 marked only by the barrel of that gun, I 'm going
8 to put that bullet under the microscope, I'm
9 going to examine those test-fired bullets, and
10 what I'm going to look for are patterns of
11 scratches, or what we call in the -- in the field
12 are stria. These are engravings on the side of

13 the bullet that are created by microscopic
14 defects inside the barre l of the weapon .
15 When the bullet passes through that
16 barrel, it's coming into contact with those
17 defects and they're leaving patterns of scratches
18 or stria on the surface of the bullet . I have to

19 be able to determine or or do -- or con
20 conclude that, in fact , all the test-fired
21 bullets that I'm seeing from that gun are
22 creating the same pattern of markings .

23 Having done that, I then know what to
24 look for on the bullet that's been recovered in a
25 crime , and maybe a bullet that's been recovered
195
1 in a autopsy, or may have been taken out of a
2 tree in a shooting . But I ' m going to look at
3 that bullet. I'm going to look for t hose same
4 patterns of stria on the surf ace of that bullet,
5 and if I see those patterns, if I can be assured
6 with my examination the patterns I do see are the
7 kind of thing I expect to see on any bullet fired
8 from that specific gun, then I can conclude t hat
9 the bullet that was recovered in the shooting was
10 fire d from that particular gun. Until I see
11 these patterns, and I see them reproducing, I
12 can't come to any conclusion at all about t hat .
13 Q Very well. Let's talk about your findings in
14 this case. Um, first, I'm going to have
15 Investigator, uh, Wiegert, uh, show you, I
16 believe , what is marked for -- or had been
17 received i n to evidence as Exhibit No. 128 , and
18 ask if you, um, first of al l , can examine that
19 item and tell us if you recognize it?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q And what is Exhibit 12 8?
22 A Well, Exhibit 128 is, um, a paper bag, now opened,

23 that -- that contained , um, a box . Um, a ll of these
24 are marked in some way or another so that I coul d
25 recognize them later . Within the box are -- I
1 96
1 believe, is 11 fi red cartridge casings that were
2 submitted in the course of this investigation .
3 Q All right . Now, we're, uh, showing a projection
4 now of that item. Is that wh at you're examining?
5 I believe i t 's, uh, Exhibi t 120 is being depicted
6 on the screen?
7 A Yes, it is. At this point, when I concluded my
8 examinations, I put the cartridge casings in small
9 plas ti c bags . When that photograph was taken, they ,
10 obviously, were not in those plastic bags .
11 Q All right . And, um, as part of your first
12 examination in this case , um , were you also asked
13 to examine a .22 caliber rifle?
14 A Yes, I was.
15 Q All right. I' m going to have Investigator
16 Wiegert show you Exhibit 129. Do you recognize
17 Exhibit 129?
18 A I do .
19 Q What is 129?
20 A Urn , Exhibit 129 is a -- a .22 caliber rifle. It's
21 manufactured by Marlin Firearms Company. The model
22 of rifle is a -- a Glenfield Model 60. Uh, this
23 happens to be a semi-automatic rifle . I - - I can
24 recognize it because of the -- the sticker I placed
25 on it that -- with the appropriate information and by
197
1 the serial number on the weapon.
2 Q All right. And, um, just so that we're clear,
3 urn, what kind of examination did you do

4 reference, um, that rifle and the, um, uh,
5 cartridges which are, uh, contained in Exhibit
6 128?
7 A Um, well, t he first thing that I did with Exhibi t
8 129, um, because I knew I was going to test-fire the
9 weapon, was to -- to g i ve it an examina tion , uh,
10 checking the function of the weapon, checking t he
11 condition of the gun, uh, documenting and writing

12 down information about the weapon, the serial number ,
13 manufacturer, and so on.
14 Uh, and I wanted to ma ke sure that the

15 gun was working, first o f all , and , secondly, I
16 wanted to make sure that it wa s safe to -- to
17 fire the weapon, because I knew this was

18 something I wanted to do, and because I 'm going
19 to want bullets and cartridge casings that I know
20 have been fired in this gun.

21 So having completed that series of
22 examinations, t he next thing I did was to obtain
23 those test fires to determine what ammunition to
24 fire in the weapon, fire it in the laboratory,
25 and then recover the cartridge casings and
198
1 bullets.
2 Q All right. Tell us about the procedure you then
3 employed for test - firing. What did you do? What
4 was the first step?
5 A Uh, well, as I said, I -- I simply wrote down various
6 information about the weapon, marked the weapon for
7 later identification. Uh, one of the examinations
8 that's -- that's, of course, important to do, is just
9 to look down the barrel of the weapon, after, of
10 course, I 1 ve determined it 1 s not loaded, and to
11 determine -- make sure there's no obstruction in the
12 barrel. Occasionally, the bullets don't get out of
13 the barrels of weapons, and -- and, uh, t hat's no t
14 a -- a safe way to fire a weapon. So I did perform
15 tha t examination.
16 I , essentially, determined that this gun
17 was functioning, and at that point, as I expected
18 it to, and saw no problems with the weapon in
19 terms of -- of safety, um, I then would have
20 test-fired rounds, cartridges in the weapon, and,
21 in fact, test-fired three of them.
22 Q All right. How did you test-fire them?
23 A Um, this weapon loads cartridges -- or you load
24 cartridges in it, in a tube on the -- just a sec,
25 it's stuck on the bottom of the barrel . That's
199
1 this tube righ t here . Uh, you drop the cart ridges in
2 this slot here, and then put the tube back i n the --
3 in position.
4 And then to actually fire this weapon,
5 had it ammunition in it , I 'd pull this bac k.
6 This is called a bolt . Let it drop. That action
7 pushes the cartridge into this part of the
8 weapon, called the chamber . It also cocks the
9 weapon. That means if I pull the trigger now, it
10 would fire , assuming I had a cartridge in t here.
11 This , by the way, for those of you that
12 aren' t familiar with weapons, is the barrel of
13 the gun . I described to some in some detail
14 what that is. So to fire the weapon , I pull t he
15 trigger , that click you heard wa s the snap of
16 the -- the striker , or the firi ng pin in this
17 weapon, and had there been a cartridge in it , it
18 would have fired at that moment .
19 Q Uh, is there any way, from just looking at i t ,
20 to, um, tell what t h e magazine capacity is in
21 that weapon?
22 A Urn
23 Q Or do they vary?
24 A No . The o n ly way to do that , and I did n ot do that
25 with this gun, um, is to actually put a number of
2 00
1 cartridges in it, see how many it would hold . I
2 could have loo ked i t up i n some magaz ine or someth i n g
3 and de termined the same thing, but it would hold, I
4 would assume, anywhere from -- from 1 0 to 15
5 cartridges .
6 Q All right. Now, um , first quest i on, then , uh,
7 were you a b le to d e termine that that weapon , um,
8 fired and functioned properly?
9 A Yes , I was .
10 Q All right .
11 A And it does .
12 Q And , um, in order to fire it , I would imagine you
13 would have to have some ammunition?
14 A Yes .
15 Q And what ammunition did you select for your
16 test-fi re?
17 A We ll , the -- one of t he thi ngs that's important in my
18 examinati ons is t o make sure I 'm firing the same kind
19 of ammunition that was submitted . That was
20 recovered . I n other words , I examined t h e cartridge
21 casings in Exhibit 128 . I determined that t hos e
22 are -- are CCI manufactured cartridges, uh, . 22 l ong
23 rifle, and so that's what I fired in the rifle . I
24 obtai ned t hree of these cartridges from a collection
25 I have at the laboratory and fired those three
201
1 cartridges in this weapon.
2 Q All right. And what -- what are those fired into
3 so that you can , um, check both the cartridge and
4 the bu l lets?
5 A I have a -- a wa ter tank in the laboratory, about,
6 uh, nine feet long, probably three-and-a-half foot
7 deep , and a couple of feet wide . And I can fire
8 through a tube in that -- in that, um, essentia lly
9 big box of water. I can fire my weapons into that .
10 The water slows the bullets down. They simpl y drop
11 to the bottom . The cartridge casings are , in this
12 case , e j ected from the weapon and caught in a trap
13 that I have on the fro nt of the -- of the water tank .
14 Q All ri ght . Now, with respect to, um, your
15 examination , were you able to , um, determine
16 whether those cartridge casings , which were
17 submitted t o you, had actually been f i red from
18 that rifle that you now hol d in your hand?
19 Exhibit 1 , uh, 29?
20 A Yes , I was.
21 Q Um , and what opinion d id you reach , sir?
22 A I was able to determine that all 11 of t hese
23 cartridge casings in Exhibit 128 had been fi red in
24 t his rifle .
25 Q All right . And do you hold that opinion to a
202
1 reasonable degree of scientific certainty?
2 A I do .
3 Q Very well. Now, did there come a time where you
4 were asked to perform a second examination of
5 evidence involving that very same rifle? Exhibit
6 129?
7 A Yes.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Um, let me then ask,
9 um, i f I could have , uh, Investigator Wiegert ,
10 um, bring Exhibi ts 114 and 113 to your attention?
11 Q (By Attorney Fallon) Let's begin with Exhibit,
12 uh, 114 . I be lieve it's Item FK? Crime Lab
13 designation ; is that correct?
15 Q All right . Um, tel l us about Exhibit 114,
16 please?
17 A Um, well, Exhibit 114, uh, was a again, a paper
18 bag , inside of which was a -- is a bullet or bullet
19 fragment . Um, i t 's a bullet that -- that's in very
20 bad shape. Uh, some of it missing. Um, that was
21 what I wa s asked to examine . I was asked to ans wer
22 the -- the same question, really, I answered with the
23 cartridge casings, uh, and that was whether this
24 bullet was fired in this weapon or whether I can say
25 it was or not.
203
1 Q All right. Tell me about the condition of that
2 particular bullet? Uh, Item FK? Exhibit 114?
3 A Item Fk -- Um, the first thing I do with these items
4 is to examine them microscopically. Um, I want to
5 define and determine what I can about the kind of gun
6 that fired this, based on the characteristics of the
7 bullet that remained .
8 Uh , for example, I can look at a bullet
9 and determine the caliber of the bullet. Uh , in
10 this case, I can look at this bullet and tell you
11 that this is a . 22 caliber bullet. I know
12 because -- be -- because of my familiarity with
13 guns, that then it had to have been fired from a
14 gun t hat 1 s a . 22 caliber gun. And that means
15 that the -- the bore diameter of that barrel has
16 to be .22 inches, approximately .
17 There are other class characteristics or
18 other design features of the gun in which a
19 bullet is f i red that are transfe rred to that
20 bullet . And t he other one of those that I was
21 able to look at , and is present on -- on this
22 bullet, at least in part, were the land and
23 groove impressions. The bullet's in very bad
24 condi tion. I examined it. Uh , some of the land
25 and groove impressions on this had been
204
1 obliterated , um, by its contact with something
2 hard , or passage through something hard.
3 But, nonetheless, with Item FK, um, I
4 was able to determine that there are eight
5 remaining land and groove impressions on this
6 bullet in Exhibit 114 , and that they had what I
7 would call a right-hand twist . That is, the gun
8 from which they were fired, thos e -- those
9 grooves in that barrel were twisted clockwise
10 when they were created.
11 So after I 've examined this bul let , I
12 know it was fired from something manufactured
13 with in a . 22 caliber, and it was fired from a
14 gun whose barrel had 16 land and groove
15 impressions. There were 8 remaining. There were
16 16 originally . And I can determine that from the
17 8 that remained on t h at -- that bullet.
18 Q What did that bul let look like? I mean, did it
19 look like a bullet when it was submitted to you?
20 A Um, to me it looked like a b u l l et , but I'm used to
21 looking at bullets that have - - that have struck
22 things, that have been -- been broken up i n to pieces
23 or smashed up. Uh, it may not look like a bullet to
24 somebody who's not familiar with them. Oh, it does
25 have the characteristics of a bullet. It's lead.
205
1 That 's fairly easy to determine. And it's -- it's
2 coated with a copper coating, and that's what they do
3 with -- in particular, with .22 caliber bullets.
4 So I was satisfied, after my microscopic
5 examination, that that's exactly what I had, was
6 a .22 caliber bullet.
7 Q All right. But if one did not have, say, the,
8 uh, assistance of, uh, your training, and
9 experience, and a microscope, to the untrained
10 eye, wha t would -- what would wha t did it
11 possibly look like?
12 A It really look -- looks like a chunk of metal. Um,
13 it might not look like anything more than that to
14 somebody who isn't used to seeing these kinds of
15 thi ngs.
16 Q All right. Um, would the, uh -- the head of a
17 roofing nail be a fair description?
18 A Well, maybe in terms of size . Uh, again, it would
19 look different from that.
20 Q All right. What conclusions, if any, were you
21 able to reach with respect to, um, um, Item FK,
22 Exhibit 114, uh, relative to, uh, the firearm in
23 question here? Uh, Exhibit 129?
24 A Um, I was limited in my conclusions to what I could
25 tell based on the class characteristics that are
206
1 there . All I can say about, uh, this Item 114, is
2 that it's a .22 caliber bullet, that it was fired
3 from a gun manufactured with 16 lands and grooves,
4 and a right-hand twist in the barrel of the gun.
5 I cannot be specific of what -- about
6 what gun that was. For example, whether,
7 specifically, it was fired from this particular
8 rifle. Because of those microscopic markings
9 that I've described as having been scratched in
10 the surface of bullets by barrels , are not
11 present there anymore. They 've been obliterated
12 by its -- its contact , or passage through, with
13 whatever it struck.
14 Q So, in -- in effect , you're saying the re -- it
15 just lacks sufficient individual characteristics
16 beyond those general ones of the lands and
17 grooves and 8 out of the 16 twists? Other than
18 that, that's what you got?
19 A Exactly.
20 Q Al l right. Very good. Let's move on , then, to ,
21 um, Exhibit 113 , Item FL. Did you have an
22 opportunity to examine that particular item?
23 A I did.
24 Q Um, first of all, then, uh, for our benefit, uh,
25 what is I Item FL , Exhibit , uh, 113?
207
1 A Well, Exhibit 113 is a second bullet. Again, I went
2 through the same examination process. In this case ,
3 again, I'm able to determine that i t's a -- a
4 . 22 caliber bullet . Oh, in this case, I have 11 of
5 the 16 original l and and groove impress ions that were
6 transferred to this bullet when it was fire d from the
7 gun from whi ch it was fired .
8 Om, I also, uh -- didn't mention on the
9 other bullet -- but I also we i ghed the bullet,
10 which can be helpful in -- in determining the
11 caliber and so on.
12 Um , and, additionally, on this bullet ,
13 on Exh ibit 113 , I do have the microscopic detail,
14 the stria and scratches on the surface of t he
15 bullet , t ha t I can relate ba ck t o a particular
16 weapon. I can compare it to test fires from a
17 particu lar we apon .
18 Q All right. And, um, as such, were you able to
19 make any determination as to whether, um, Item
20 FL , uh, that 's the Crime Lab designation, a nd
21 Exhibit 113 , were , uh -- was fired from Exhibit
22 129, t h e Marlin Glenfield 60 .22 caliber rifle?
23 A Yes, I wa s.
24 Q And wha t , uh, conclusion did you reach, sir?
25 A I was able to d etermine that -- that this b ullet in
208
1 Exhibit 113 was fired from this particular Mar li n
2 rifle .
3 Q All right. Um, and do you hold that opinion to a
4 reasonable degree of scientific certainty?
5 A I do.
6 Q And how is that you're, uh -- Well, let's follow
7 that up with, is it to the exclusion of any other
8 rifle that that bullet was fired from?
9 A It is.
10 Q Why is that?
11 A Um, when I examined the test fires from this rifle ,
12 um, I'm sorry, Exhibit 129, um, when I looked at
13 those bullets under the microscope, I found that I
14 was seeing patterns of scratches or stria reproducing
15 on each of the test fires . There's always
16 differences, not all there on every bullet test-fired
17 from that rifle, but I was able to determine that I
18 could expect to see certain patterns of these
19 markings.
20 More importantly, when I put Exhibit 113
21 under the microscope and compared it directly to
22 my tes t fires, I was able to demonstrate that I
23 had the same patterns on the test fires that I
24 had on this bullet i n Exhibit 113.
25 And, in fact, it was enough markings
209
1 that I was able to determine that I had more
2 agreement in these kinds of stria , and these
3 patterns of stria, than I ever would expect to

4 see f rom two bullets that were not fired from the
5 same gun . We have to be able to satisfy that
6 kind of -- of correlation that we expect to see
7 in bullets not fired from guns, same gun .
8 The fact of the matter was, in this
9 case, the patterns, t he amount of agreement and
10 correlation that I see, and saw, on this bullet,
11 when I compared it to test fires, was enough for
12 me to be able to conclude that it had been fired
13 from this Marlin rifle, and could have been fired
14 in none other .
15 Q All right. I 'm having Investigator Wiegert, uh,
16 show you Exhibits 134, 135. Do you recognize
17 them?
18 A I do .
19 Q And what are Exhibit 134 a nd 135?
20 A Well, Exhibit 134 is a report that I wrote, uh,
21 describing the evidence I looked at and the findings
22 or conclusions to which I came. Uh, this report is
23 dated February 21 of 2006, and, in particular , it
24 descri bes the examination and comparison of the
25 cartridge casings that I looked at and related to or
210
1 determined were fired in that rifle in Exhibit 129 .
2 The other report , Exhibit 135, is dated
3 May 10 of 2006 . This is the description o f the
4 bullets that I loo ke d a t , uh , in Exhibits 11 3 and
5 114 , uh, and describes my findings with regard to
6 whether they were or were not fired from the
7 rifle in 129.
8 Q All right. And are those the official reports
9 that you filed in this particular case?
10 A Yes, they are .
11 ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, subject to
12 the receipt of those last t wo exhibits , 134 and
13 135, I would tender the witness for
14 cross - examination .
15 THE COURT : All right . Cross, Counsel?
18 Q Good afternoon , Mr . Newhouse . You ' ve been at it
19 for a g ood while, h a ven ' t y ou ?
20 A A little while .
21 Q Okay . Um, I'm not going to take issue with your
22 qualifications . I t h i n k it ' s pretty obvious that
23 you've had plen ty of e xperi ence i n the trai n ing .
24 I do want to as k you a lit t l e bit a b out the FBI
25 program . Um, I believe y ou said you spent about
211
1 a week out there?
2 A That's true . Yes.
3 Q Did you spend any time, in connection with your
4 visit to the firearm and toolmark section of the
5 FBI Lab, with the metallurgy section?
6 A No, I do not .
7 Q Do -- You know they have a metallurgy section?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Does Wisconsin have a metallurgy section?
10 A Um, no.
11 Q All right. Well, let me ask you this: Given the
12 fact that you received the empty cartridges , and
13 you were able to identify the manufacturer as
14 CCI, did you make any attempt beyond the
15 identification of the manufacturer to determine
16 which specie, if you will, of CCI . 22 caliber
17 cartridge, turned into, or was the origi nating
18 source, of your FK, um, and FL?
19 A Um, no, there was no other association that I
20 attempted to make between the cartridge casings and
21 the bullets .
22 Q Uh, CCI, just like a lot of manufacturers, they
23 make a multitude of .22 caliber bullets; right?
24 A They do.
25 Q Okay . They vary by weight ; correct?
212
1 A Yes .
2 Q They vary by, uh , size? And by that I mean long,
3 short; correct?
4 A Uh, essentially by weight, but -- and by length, yes .
5 Q Well , but that's related to the relative, um,
6 power, if you will , of any given cartridge,
7 because of the amount of powder?
8 A Uh, yes . Uh --
9 Q Okay . What - - what I ' m getting at, Mr . Newhouse,
10 just to get down to the point here, the
11 test-firings that you made in order to get a
12 clean bullet, to be able to do the microscopic
13 examination, the CCI bullets that you took from
14 your stock , you cannot tell us that they are , in
15 fact, the same CCI type which resulted in what
16 you've labeled FL and FK? Is that a fair
17 statement?
18 A Um, I -- That ' s all going to revolve around what you
19 mean by type . The - - the fact of the matter is they
20 are the same type . That doesn't mean there are not
21 difference s between what I test-fired and what we
22 have in 113 and 114.
23 Q Well, let's go backwards. Can you tell me
24 precisely what stock number, for example, CCI
25 test-fire bullets you used?
213
1 A No.
2 Q Can you tell me what Stock No. F-- assuming
3 they're CCI -- FK and FL were?
4 A No, I cannot.
5 Q All right. You undertook no efforts, and correct
6 me if I'm wrong, to have a ny comparison done
7 between FK and FL as they relate to one another
8 with respect to the metallurgy composition of
9 those shells; correct? Or those --
11 Q -- bullets? And , Mr. Newhouse, let me ask you
12 this: Wa -- was there submitted to you, for any ,
13 um, examination , a box of CCI, uh, .22s?
14 A None that I'm aware of, no . None that I examined,
15 certainly .
16 Q When things get submitted for you to examine ,
17 they get a number , and everything has one
18 particular number for -- for your file purposes ;
19 right?
21 Q Okay. And you've had a chance to look at your
22 records in anticipation of your testimony?

23 A Yes.
24 Q If a box of . 22 shells were submitted to you for
25 examination in connection with this case, it
214
1 would be reflected in those records ; right?
2 A If I examined it, yes .
3 Q Well
4 A My - -
5 Q Exam --
6 A -- point -- My point is that it's possible a box of
7 ammunition could have been submitted that I didn't
8 see .
9 Q Submitted to the l a b ?
10 A Yes .
11 Q Doesn't mean it made it to you?
12 A Correct.
13 Q But the bottom line, again , is nothing was
14 submitted to you?
16 Q Okay. So if there were some shells recovered
17 from a particular crime scene, um, you undertook
18 no efforts to compare your FK, your FL, to
19 anyt hing else t hat was submitted ; correct?
21 Q All right. I believe you testified that either
22 FK or FL, uh, had charasteris -- characteristics
23 of a coated bullet?
24 A Yes . They both di d.
25 Q They both did? Okay . Copper?
215
1 A I'm sorry, what?
2 Q Copper?
3 A Uh, I would presume of copper, copper ac -- copper
4 alloy, the more likely .
5 Q Okay . You didn't undertake any test to
6 determine?
7 A None.
8 Q All right.
9 A No .
10 Q So from your testimony, we know that FK was fired
11 in that particular rifle you've examined?
12 A It was the one t hat I designated FL.
13 Q Oh, I'm sorry, FL . Okay. FL being the one with
14 19.7 grains remai ning?
15 A Yes. I believe that's correct.
16 Q And when I say, remaining, you can't te l l t his
17 jury how many grains it may have originated with,
18 can you?
19 A Uh, no.
20 Q Al l right .
21 A I cannot .
22 Q And the same would be true on FK as far as

23 weight?
24 A I could only guess. I wouldn't be able to determine ,
25 specifically, no.
216
1 Q And that's because the manufacturers vary the
2 weights of the bullet ; right?
3 A Yep. That 's correct .
4 Q So FL, you're satisfied, came out of that gun?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q FK, we can 't really say? Can't say the same
7 thing , certainly?
9 Q Okay. And, certainly, you absolutely cannot say
10 what or who caused either FK, or FL for that
11 matter, arguing they both maybe came out o f
12 there , caused t hem to be p rojected through the
13 barrel of that rifle ?
14 A No, I cannot.
15 Q You have nothing by way of your exami n ation,
16 whatsoever, to suggest that it was fired at
17 anytime by this defendant; correct?
19 Q Okay. That's really out of your ba iliwick ;
20 right?
21 A Yes , it is .
22 Q All right. That's all . Thank you .
24 ATTORNEY FALLON: One clarification.
21 7
2 Q Um, I take it it is possible that Item FK,
3 Exhibit 114, was discharged by the weapon, 129?

4 At -- at least it 's the same general
5 characteristics?
6 A Yes, it is possible.
7 Q But beyond that, you cannot say for any degree of
8 certainty?
9 A That 's right .
10 Q Okay . That's fine . Thank you.
11 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Judge, just some
12 r eal quick follow-up .
15 Q When you say, it could be , isn't it just as
16 likely, Mr . Newhouse, that that one that , um,
17 Counsel just referred to, FK , could not have been

18 fired from that gun?
19 A I simply can't say . And tha t' s what that means .

20 Q Thank you. That's all .
21 THE COURT: All right. You may s tep down.
22 THE WITNESS : Thank you.

23 THE COURT : Uh, I think we'll t ake a re cess
24 now for about 15 minutes. Counsel , i f I could see
25 you for just a couple of minutes?
218
2 (Recess had at 2 : 57 p .m.)
4 THE COURT: Before, uh -- Before -- Oops.
5 Before proceeding, I'd like to remind the media that
6 the trial administration order says that during
7 recesses, the camera should not be operating, and in
8 this -- during this past recess, it was , so I'd
9 appreciate it if you could, uh , look a litt le b it
10 more closely at that . All right . Uh, gentlemen?
11 Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Fallon?
12 ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes . State would call
13 Kenneth Olson .
14 THE COURT: Is it your plan that Mr. Olson
15 will be your las t witness this afternoon?
16 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes.
17 THE CLERK : Raise your right hand, please .
18 KENNETH OLSON ,
19 called as a witness herei n, having been first duly
20 sworn , was examined and testified as follows:
21 THE CLERK : Be seated . State your name and
22 spell your last name for the record, please?
23 THE WITNESS: Kenneth B. Olson, 0-1 -s-o-n.
219
1 Q How are you employed?
2 A I'm a forensic scientist at the State Crime
3 Laboratory in Madison.
4 Q And how long, um, have you been employed in that
5 cap -- uh, in that capacity?
6 A Approximately 27 years.
7 Q What type of, uh , forensic science do you
8 practice at the Crime Lab?
9 A My main duties at the Crime Laboratory is in the area
10 of trace evidence examination . I examine a variety
11 of materials; paint , glass, fibers, plastics, metals,
12 um, anything that needs chemical identification or
13 comparison , urn , that doesn't fit into drugs,
14 toxicology , or DNA .
15 Q All right. And how long have you been actively
16 engaged in the trace evidence, uh , field?
17 A My -- The whole time that I've been employed at the
18 laboratory .
19 Q All right. Hav e you ever been a member of -- for
20 instance , of, uh, the Field Response Unit for the
21 Crime Lab?
22 A Yes . I was an active member of our field response
23 program for 24 years .
24 Q All right. Um, are you a current member?
25 A I kind of fill in as needed .
220
1 Q All right. How is it that you became involved in
2 this particular case?
3 A I was asked to examine, um, several items that were
4 recovered during the investigation of this case. Um,
5 items from a burning barrel, uh, and some, uh,
6 charred bones .
7 Q All right. Um, and, in particular, your reason
8 for being here today is to provide us the, uh,
9 results of your examinations?
11 Q Al l right. Um, before we do so, um, I'd like to
12 find out a little bit about your, um your
13 background. I 1 m going to have Exhibit, um, 136,
14 uh, given to you by Investigator Wiegert . Do you
15 recognize Exhibit 136?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q What i s Exhibit 136?
18 A Exhibit 136 is a statement of my qualifications.
19 Q And, uh, did you prepare that exhibit?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q All right. Well, first of all, let 1 s talk about
22 your, uh, educational, um, experience. First of
23 all, do you have an undergraduate degree?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q And from which institution?
221
1 A I have a Bachelor of Science Degree f rom the
2 University of Wisconsin at Superior with a major in
3 chemistry.
4 Q Al l right. Uh, have you received any, uh, post,
5 um, uh , graduate experience at al l i n -- or
6 courses of that ilk?
7 A I took a couple , um , um, Master's of Business
8 Administration courses.
9 Q Very good. And what particular, uh,
10 on-the-job-training have you received to assist
11 you in performing the tests that you, uh ,
12 currently perform for t h e Cri me Lab?
13 A Since being employed a t t he Crime Laboratory in the
14 area of trace evidence, I did a three- year
15 apprenticeship-type activity, learning the different
16 aspects of trace evidence . So I had extensive
17 on-the-job-training , a nd the laboratory sent me to
18 several schools over t hose t raining years in al l t he
19 different areas that I do ana l ysis, um, with the
20 different types of instruments that we use to the
21 different types of evidence that we handle .
22 Q All right. Um, are there any particul ar, um,
23 assoc i at ions or organizations that you belong to,
24 either for trai ning pur poses or f or professional
25 development?
222
1 A Yes. Relating to forensic science , I'm a member of
2 the Midwest Association of Forensic Scientists. I 'm
3 also a member of the Association for Crime Scene
4 Reconstruction, and a member of the International
5 Association of Blood Stain Pattern Analysts.
6 Q All right. And do you regularly a -- at t end
7 trainings in these areas of specialization to
8 maintain, uh, current familiarity with the
9 research and the literature and general crime
10 scene processing requirements?
11 A As often as -- as I can.
12 Q All right. Um, when did you first become
13 involved in this case? What was your first, um,
14 assigned task?
15 A The first evidence that I examined in this case, um,
16 I received some items from a burning barrel on
17 December 1, 2005.
18 Q What kind of items did you examine from a burn
19 barrel?
20 A The items were submitted in in I, um, put the
21 materials out on a -- an exam table, and I found, um,
22 items of -- of -- uh, from a cell phone . Um, it was
23 a Motorola -- Motorola cell phone. You could tell
24 that the -- um, just visually , the material -- it
25 was, um, consistent with, uh, a cell phone, flip
223
1 phone, and I found, um, charred remains of a -- a
2 Canon Sure Shot A310 camera, and then some other
3 electrical components and, uh, some batteries.
4 Q All right . Um, did you recommend any additional
5 or further forensic work on that material that
6 you, yourself, were unable to , um, uh -- to
7 conduct?
8 A I was asked if I could get any information from the
9 cell phone or the components of the camera. And I
10 informed the investigators that, um, our laboratory's
11 not equipped to do that type of analysis. Um, I'm
12 basically one that can examine things either visually
13 or microscopically, and give them investigative
14 leads. So if they needed a more in detailed
15 analysis, they would have to send that to, uh,
16 another laboratory or the FBI .
17 Q All right. After examining the contents of the,
18 uh -- the burn barrel, what was the next, um,
19 matter, uh, which concerned your, uh, expertise?
20 A In February of 2006, I was asked to examine some
21 skull fragments , some charred skull fragments from a

22 burning pit. Um, specifically, uh, they wanted me to
23 examine, uh, an entrance, uh, defect into that skull
24 fragment .
25 Q All right. And describe the skull fragment that
224
1 you were asked to examine?
2 A The skull fragment was, um, a small, um,
3 approximately two inches in -- in diameter, um, piece

4 of charred skull that had a hole in it, and that hole
5 had some beveling on the outer surface, and it -- and

6 it had some, um -- some beveling or concave
7 appearance on t he inside of the -- the bone fragment.
8 Q All right. I'm showing investigate -- uh, having
9 Investigator Wiegert show you a photograph. Um,
10 what exhibit number is that, please?

11 A Exhibit 140 is a photograph of that cranial skull
12 fragment that I examined that had the beveling, um,

13 and the -- can't think of the term the concave,
14 uh, nature of the -- of the bone .
15 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, at this point
16 I don't know if I necessarily have an objection,

17 but I -- I suppose I'd like some more foundation
18 from this witness. He's referring to it as a
19 cranial or a skull fragment. I don't think the
20 expert has -- Well, I don't think he has an
21 expertise to say what type of bone this is other
22 than, someone told me it might have been a

23 cranial bone.
24 I -- I know he mentioned charred bones
25 when he was talking about what he reviewed, and
225
1 now it's referred to as cranial bone. If there
2 could be some more foundation as to how he knows
3 what that is .
4 ATTORNEY FALLON : Tha t' s where I 'm going
5 next .
6 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay .
8 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Than k you.
9 Q (By Attorney Fremgen ) Um, from whom did you
10 receive these items fo r purposes of , uh,
11 analysis?
12 A These items were, uh, originated from, uh, Dr . Leslie
13 Eisenberg, um, an anthropologist with the State
14 Historical Society.
15 Q All righ t . And , um, did the -- t he items that
16 you examined , they did receive a Crime Lab
17 designation ; is t hat correct?
18 A Yes , they did.
19 Q All right. And, um, first of all , tell us about
20 the -- the items t hat were how they were
21 originally submitted to you in their packaging?
22 Would you describe t hat for us, please?
23 A Could I refer to my notes to that ?
24 Q Sure .
25 A This particular item in Exhibit 140 , uh, was received
22 6
1 in a box, um, from DCI, and Item EJ, which is that,
2 um, bone fragment there, um, was received in, uh,
3 three sealed plastic Ziplock bags. Uh, one was
4 labeled cranial refits with s uspected entrance
5 deficit. The second one was labeled cranial refits,
6 and the third one was labeled cranial refits . Um, I
7 was only interested in the suspected entrance defect
8 in that one, uh, uh, skull fragment.
9 Q All right. And, um, again, um, from whom were
10 those, um, uh, items received?
11 A EJ and EK were submitted by Special Agents -- Special
12 Agent James Holmes, uh , Division of Criminal
13 Investigation .
14 Q That's correct. Now, you mentioned something
15 about Dr. Eisenberg? Were there indications or
16 markings on the materials indicating that she had
17 previously examined those items?
18 A Yes. Those were, um, her markings , her initials.
19 Q All right. And her labeling?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right. Very well. With respect to, um -- Of
22 the items that you examined, you -- you indicated
23 you only examined one item?
24 A Of -- of the two that were submitted, Item EJ and
25 A -- uh, EK, I only examined the one, uh, fragment
227
1 from Item EK . Or EJ , excuse me.
2 Q All right. And the item -- and the other items
3 were -- how were they labeled?
4 A The other item was a sealed plastic bag with bone --
5 bone fragments labeled cranial, s lash, face, slash,
6 dental .
7 Q All right. And was there any indication of a
8 suspected entrance defect on Item EK?
9 A No, there was not.
10 Q All right. Let's begin, then, with, um, Item EJ.
11 Specifically, how did you begin your analysis of
12 that item?
13 A Um, first thing I did was just examine, um, that, uh,
14 skull fragment, uh, under my normal stereo mi croscope
15 to see what the surfaces looked like, to see if I
16 could see any, um, metallic metal present. Um, I
17 then , um, mounted the item on a -- a scanning
18 electron microscope that uses energy disbursed x-rays
19 to do elemental analysis on t he areas, and I was
20 specifically interested in the areas, um, around
21 the -- the entrance defect, both on the -- on the
22 inner surf ace and on the, um -- on the inward
23 beveling.
24 Q All right. And, um, what was the condition of
25 the fragment that you examined?
228
1 A It was heavily charred. Um, and it was -- and it was
2 brittle .
3 Q All right. And did you take any special
4 precautions in handling the matter, um, prior to
5 subjecting it to testing?
6 A Just, uh, handled with, uh, gloves and was gentle
7 with it .
8 Q All right. .And subsequent to your, um,
9 examination of that item, did you receive other
10 fragments from Dr. Eisenberg, uh, to examine?
11 A In November, um -- November 17, 2006 , um, I received ,
12 uh, two other, uh, charred cranial pieces from
13 Dr. Eisenberg.
14 Q All right. And what were those items designated?
15 A Those items were designated Item KQ and KR .
16 Q All right. And describe , um, if you would, uh,
17 Item KQ in a little more detail, would you,
18 please?
19 A Item KQ was a smaller bone fragment than Item EJ. It
20 also had an entrance defect present. And what, uh,
21 was interesting from Dr. Eisenberg's standpoint ,
22 and and my standpoint, was the x-rays of that item
23 showed some tiny little bright spots present in the
24 x-ray, which usually means there's some type of dense
25 metal there .
229
1 Q All right . I'm going to show you one more
2 photograph, 137. Do you recognize that?
3 A Yes . Exhibit 137 is the outer surface of Item KQ,
4 uh, showing the entrance defect with the beveled
5 edge .
6 Q All right. And, um, you mentioned something also
7 about , um, some x-rays. I'm going to have two
8 more exhibits, uh, provided to you, uh, 138 and
9 139 . Beginning with, uh, 138, do you recognize
10 138?
11 A Exhibit 138 appears to be a x-ray image of Item EJ,
12 the, um, first skull fragment that I examined .
13 Q All right. I'm showing the inner surface. All
14 right? And, uh, now, you mentioned, uh, before,
15 we -- Well, yeah. All right. Let's go to the
16 next one . Exhibit, uh, one thirty --
17 A Nine?
18 Q -- nine. And directing your attention to the
19 piece in the upper left-hand corner, uh, of that
20 exhibit, do you recognize that?
21 A Yes, I do .
22 Q All right. And is , um -- What is that?
23 A Uh, Exhibit 139, uh, is a x-ray image of eight, um,
24 bone fragments . And, specifically, the one in the
25 upper left-hand corner, which has an entrance defect,
230
1 shows some bright spots r ight on the edge of that
2 entrance defect , both on the beveled edge, uh , and
3 inside of the beveling.

4 Q All right . Now, that, um, looks di fferent than
5 Item 137 . Um, and if you can explain to us, um,
6 the apparent difference?
7 A One thirty-seven, um, shows this smaller bone
8 fragment with the entrance defect, um, attached to ,
9 uh, some more bone fragments . And that attachment
10 is, uh, done after these x-rays were taken, um, when
11 Dr . Eisenberg was putting together the pieces to try
12 to, um, put the bone fragments back together to what
13 they originally were .
14 Q Hence , the designation cranial refit?
15 A Correct .
16 Q All right . Well , um , let's start, then, with
17 the, um, exhibit, uh, with the, um -- the -- the
18 x-ray of the last one, 138?

19 A One thirty- nine?
20 Q Oh, 139, I 'm sorry . There we go . Al l right .
21 Now, directing your attention to the -- the
22 zoomed-in picture of 139, what are we -- If

23 you'd -- I believe there's a laser pointer to ,
24 uh -- right next to your material there . And you

25 can either use the large screen over here, or one
231
1 of those. It might be easier to use the large
2 screen. Um, what are we loo king at with the ,
3 um -- the area that seems to fluoresce the re?
4 A I was interested in these bright part i cles here , and
5 focused my scanning electron microscope on those
6 areas.
7 Q All right. And with respect to those areas, what
8 were you able to, um, determine?
9 A I was able to determine what element s were present,
10 um, on that -- on that area that I was examining .
11 Q All right. And, um, similarly, I 'm going to back
12 up to Exhibit 138 now, the, um, previous one, and
13 ask you, on this particular one, on a zoomed-in,
14 uh, picture of that, there appears to be,
15 likewise, some fluorescing material there?
16 A There is one bright particle there . Um , I did not
17 have access to this x-ray when I was doing my
18 analysis. So I focused my attention in this area
19 here and this area in here .
20 Q All right . And, um, were you able to, uh, make
21 any determination as to what these substances
22 were, uh, along that ridgeline that you've just
23 identified?
24 A Most of the the - - The strongest elements that I
25 found in these areas were calcium and phosphorus,
232
1 which are the elements of bone. Um, but in the upper
2 area, in this area, I did detect, uh, traces of
3 elemental lead.
4 Q All right. When we say "traces of elemental
5 lead", what do you mean?
6 A Like I mentioned, um, the strongest elements that
7 were present in that area were calcium and
8 phosphorus, and those are the -- the main elements of
9 bone. Um, and I would suspect to see them, since I'm
10 looking at a -- a -- a sample of -- of bone .
11 Um, but I was also interested in seeing
12 if I could detect any lead, um, because this
13 entrance defect interested me from a science
14 standpoint that that was, indeed, a bullet hole,
15 that I would be looking for any traces of lead
16 metal.
17 Q All right. And how many different locations
18 along that area did you examine?
19 A I examined three areas in here and found elemental
20 lead . And I examined four areas over here and I did
21 not detect any elemental lead .
22 Q All right. Did you examine any other, um,
23 aspects of this particular item to determine
24 whether there was any trace of elemental lead
25 elsewhere on the, um, exhibit?
233
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Tell us about that?
3 A I purposely went to an area away from t hat entrance
4 defect, uh, to get a background or a control sample
5 of what elements I would suspect or would think to
6 find in that area. And in that area, that control
7 area, a away from that entrance defect, I did not
8 detect any presence of elemental lead.
9 Q So in -- in terms -- As a scientist, having
10 looked at a control area , and now having that
11 knowledge, and comparing it with the area near
12 t he defect, what does that suggest to you or what
13 does that tell you?
14 A That te lls me that if I'm seeing l ead in that
15 entrance defect, that a source of that could be a
16 bullet .
17 Q All right. How many control areas did you
18 utilize?
19 A I believe I took four, uh, control areas away from
20 that entrance defect .
21 Q All right. Very good . In your experience , um --
22 Well, let me also ask , have you had any firearms
23 training as part of your, uh , Crime Lab traini ng?
24 A Yes, I - - I do.
25 Q And tell us about that?
234
1 A For about a year and two or three months in the year
2 2000, I did some cross-training in the Firearms Unit ,
3 um, examining guns, preparing guns for destruction,
4 um, test firing guns, recovering the bullets, doing
5 bullet comparisons , cartridge case comparisons.

6 Q All right . Very good . I want to, um, move onto
7 the, um -- Well, before I do, let me ask you this
8 question: With respect to Item EJ, based on your
9 findings of traces of elemental lead, uh, your,
10 uh, Crime Lab training, is -- is that defend
11 uh, defect that you observed on that item
12 consistent with having been caused by a

13 high-speed projectile?
14 A Yes, it is.
15 Q Um, and why is that? What is it about the defect
16 and your findings that , um, lead you to that
17 conclusion?
18 A From my experience in crime scenes and field

19 response, uh, pending autopsies, and giving training
20 to law enforcement , that when, um , something --
21 something is shot with a bullet in the skull, you get

22 this type of beveling on the surf ace from where the
23 bullet impacts, and then you have that concave
24 beveling on the i nside surface that , uh, is very, um,
25 characteristic of a high-speed projectile, including
235
1 bullets.
2 Q All right. Very good. Let 's, um, move onto, um,
3 the item, um, KQ, and I think we have that as
4 Exhibit 139?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q All right. Again, we're focusing in on the, um,
7 piece of the upper left-hand corner of this
8 exhibit . Tell us about your examination of this
9 particular fragment?
10 A I did have a photograph of this x-ray when I was
11 doing my analysis of this item, and I focused my
12 analysis in the area here. I took four samples. One
13 here, two, three and four. Urn - -
14 Q All right. And, um, with respect to those
15 particular four areas, what did you find?
16 A In areas one and two, the two strongest elements were
17 calcium and phosphorus. Uh, and then the third
18 strongest element in that area was was elemental
19 lead. Uh, Item -- areas three and four, the
20 strongest, urn, element present was lead on those two
21 areas .
22 Q All right. And, um, likewise , uh, comparatively
23 speaking, was there more or less lead assoc iated
24 with, um, Item KQ, Exhibit 139, than with Item
25 EJ, Exhibit 137?
236
1 A There was considerably more lead in this particular
2 bone fragment , KQ, than there was in Item EJ .
3 Q Um, likewise , with respect to this particular
4 item, did -- did you test other a reas of the
5 fragment? In other words, did you develop
6 control areas from which to make comparisons?
7 A Yes, I d id .
8 Q Tell us about that?
9 A Like in the previous i tem, I went to an area away
10 from the defect and , um, did not detect any lead
11 present in tho -- in those areas .
12 Q All right. And so what d id that tell you or
13 signify to you relative to your findings of, uh,
14 lead in in -- in and around the area perceived
15 to be the defect?
16 A That finding lead in the area of this entrance
17 defect, associated with bright spots that are
18 consistent with very dense metal that -- that
19 containing main ly lead, that it could have come from
20 a bullet .
21 Q All right . Is the, um -- on microscopic
22 examination , is t h at defect area, which you
23 identified as having traces of lead present,
24 or -- o r be more than traces of e l - - actua l
25 elemental lead present -- is that consistent
237
1 with, um, a -- a -- a defect caused by a
2 high-speed projectile?
3 A Yes, it is.
4 Q All right. And why is that?
5 A As I mentioned earlier, that type of defect, um,
6 striking hard bone, causes the beveling effects on
7 the out -- outside and on the inside surf aces that is
8 consistent with a high-speed projectile, such as a
9 bullet.
10 Q On this -- On this particular item, did you do
11 both the inside and t he outside?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q First of all, so we're all clear, wha t do you
14 mean inside and outside? Are we referring to the
15 defect beveled area? Or what are we referring
16 to?
17 A I'm referring to the in -- inner surface of the skull
18 versus the outer surface. What we're -- What we see
19 in this exhibit, this is the inner surface here. So
20 this is the inner beveling of that defect. And I did
21 look at the other side, the, um, outside surface.
22 Q All right. And with respect to the outer -- the
23 other outside area, what did you find relat ive to
24 the presence or absence of lead?
25 A In the area inside of that bevel, I was able to
238
1 detect elemental lead on the -- t he beveling on the
2 outside surface .
3 Q All right. Similarly, did you employ t hat same

4 control technique on this, um -- outside, as you
5 did on the inside area?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q All right. And what did that, if anything,
8 indicate to you?
9 A I did not defect any lead, uh , in my control area .
10 Q Is it fair to say, then, that the only traces, or
11 presence, actually, of lead were in and around
12 the area identified as this defect?

13 A From what I examined, yes.
14 Q All right . Al l right. Mr. Olson, the opinion
15 that, um, Item EJ, the first one we examined, had
16 traces of elemental lead, uh, associated with it,
17 do you hold that opinion to a reasonable degree
18 of scientific certainty?
19 A Yes, I do .
20 Q Um, with respect to the item given Crime Lab
21 designation KQ, uh, do you hold the opinion to a

22 reasonable degree of scientific certainty that
23 Item KQ, uh, contained elemental lead in and
24 around that defect area?

25 A Yes, I do .
239
1 ATTORNEY FALLON: Subject to t he receipt
2 of t he four e xhibits, one -- Or, excuse me , five.
3 The , uh, CV, 136 through 140 , we, uh, move t hos e
4 into evidence, and tender the witness for
5 cross-examinat i on.
6 THE COURT : Yeah. My sheet shows that , uh ,
7 132 through 135 had not yet been offered.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Oh . Well, t hen I
9 would make a motion that t hey be rece i ved as
10 well.
11 THE COURT : Any objection, gentlemen, to
12 either of those motions?
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, we reserve - -
14 Ask - - ask the Court to res erve ruling on those
15 at this time . I wish to be heard on a few of
16 those .
17 THE COURT : All ri ght. Cros s .
20 Q Doctor, I - - I noticed -- And you did ask, uh ,
21 Attorney Fallon if you could refer to your notes .
22 Um, I understand it's been about 12 or 15 months
23 since you evaluated these items? Comple ted --
24 A I --
25 Q - - your reports?
240
1 A I evaluated in December of '0 5 , February of '06,
2 April of '06, and November of ' 06 .
3 Q So it would be difficult for you, from the top of
4 your h ead , to know everything that you wrote i n
5 your reports, or reca ll everything you wrote in
6 your reports?
7 A Well, I tried to prepare today to be able to not
8 refer to them , but some of the specific ques t ions I
9 asked to review my notes.
10 Q And that ' s fine. You , um, had indicated -- And,
11 actually, I only have a few questions for you .
12 So, hopefully, we'll make it easier for you .
13 You'd indicated that when you revi ewed, uh --
14 when you tested the areas of on EJ, I think in
15 your notes you refer to them as there's one ,
16 two , three, and fo ur, five , six? That's the
17 outer edges of that bevel area?
19 Q That you noted the -- the presence of calcium and
20 phosphorus? Which you've testified is consistent
21 with bone?
22 A Correct .
23 Q And lead? Which wouldn't normally be -- be
24 consistent with a human bone?
25 A I'm not aware of finding that large a concentrations
241
1 in human bone .
2 Q There's small concentrations of lead in the human
3 body, but not in bone like that; correct?
4 A Not that I ' m able to detect .
5 Q Now -- And -- and your assumption is that it
6 might be from some sort of a lead projectile? In
7 fact, you said bullet?
8 A Yes .
9 Q Urn, are you aware of what items were in the fire
10 pit, or in this -- where -- where -- this burning
11 pit, that might have maybe contributed to the
12 lead presence?
13 A I knew there were tires . That's about the limit of
14 my knowledge .
15 Q Okay . Could could -- Well , it -- could have
16 something in the fire , had it been lead,
17 contributed to these deposits?
18 A It's possible, but it would have to be a relatively
19 pure sample .
20 Q Did you note any copper in any of these -- i n
21 your evaluation?
22 A No, I did not.
23 Q You did note other elements? Including zinc,
24 magnesium, aluminum?
242
1 Q So , uh, just to be correct , on -- on your direct ,
2 it wasn't just calcium, phosphorus , and lead , but
3 at least three or four more other elements?
5 Q And would that be norma l to find in the human
6 bone?
7 A I have limited , um, um , opportunities to examine bone
8 fragments , but on the samples that I did examine, I
9 was not surprised with t he e lements I was s eei ng
10 there .
11 Q When you also , uh , did your control samples,
12 similar type of e lements would show up?
13 A Yes .
14 Q And , ag ain , not a surprise to you?
16 Q Your control was only on one other area of the
17 bone fragments you provided to you?
18 A Every surface that I exami ned , um, like if it was the
19 inner surfa ce of one of t he bone s, I woul d do a
20 control on the inner surface. If I examined the
21 the entrance on t he outer surface , I would do a
22 control on that same outer surface .
23 Q And you did that for e ve ry fragment that you
24 received?
25 A Yes , I d id .
243
1 Q You also received a -- a headboard?
2 A Yes, I did .
3 Q And -- and you h ad an opportunity to examine it
4 to determine if there were an y rope fibers ;
5 correct?
6 A That's what I was requested to examine, to see if I
7 could find any rope fibers attached to the headboard .
8 Q So you're directed to look for this?
9 A That's co rre c t .
10 Q And you did, uh , an actual -- a visual
11 examination; correct?
12 A Visual with some microscopic exam .
13 Q So the first step wou ld be to visually observe
14 the item?
16 Q And when you visually observed the item, you
17 noted no rope fibers ; correct?
19 Q Uh , and then , of course , the microscopic
20 evaluation would be because our eyes aren't that
21 great; right?
22 A A magnification helps in the area of trace evidence .
23 Q And , obviously , that ' s your training? And you
24 know that the next step would be to try to take a
25 closer look; correct?
244
2 Q And in order to do so , you used some sort of an
3 adhesive tape to -- to pull up what might be on
4 the surface of that, uh , wooden spindle on the
5 headboard?
6 A Yes .
7 Q That's one -- one technique for looking for

8 fibers is by using a tape lift to take a, um
9 not too strong of a n adhesive , um, but just to
10 tape lift , like a lint remover type lift , and
11 then examine what fibers were recovered from

12 that? You don't want to pull off the surface ,
13 itself?
15 Q And so with that , you were able to then , uh,
16 place it onto some uh , some sort of a slide?

17 A Actually, I placed it on a plastic backing , and then
18 I can examine that under the microscope, and if I see
19 something of i n terest , I can put a little cut in that
20 plastic and , with a solvent , remove all the fibers
21 I'm interested in .
22 Q Did you note any fibers?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Were they rope fibers?
25 A Uh, they were not consistent with rope fibers .
245
1 Q You noted some cotton fibers?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Okay. I have nothing else . Thank you, Doctor .
4 THE COURT : Any redirect?
8 Q Was it, um -- Is it , uh, expected or unusual for
9 you not to find a ny rope fibers given t he - - the
10 material you examined?
11 A In my exper i ence, um, smooth surfaces, like spindles
12 on a headboard , are not your best surf ace for
13 snagging fibers . Um, if there was, uh, slivers , a
14 nail, or something that could s nag , uh, rope fibers ,
15 that would be a bet ter method for depositing fibers ,
16 um , on a surface .
17 Q All right. Now, did you find something --
18 anything else on that -- that headboa rd?
19 A Yes. On one of the sp ind les there was a thi n,
20 plastic film t h at I removed a nd analyzed, and
21 identified it as polypropylene .
22 Q What are some of t he uses of polypropylene is?
23 A Um, polypropylene , um, is used in garments, it ' s
24 used, um, uh, as p las tic con tainers, um, it - - it is
25 also used in rope manufacturing.
246
1 ATTORNEY FALLON : No further questions .
3 THE COURT : Al l right . You may s tep down .
4 THE WITNESS : Thank you, Your Honor .
5 THE COURT : You're welcome . Any further
6 witnesses this afternoon?
7 ATTORNEY FALLON : We do not have any
8 this a f t ernoon, Judge . We went a little more
9 quickly tha n anticipated .
10 THE COURT : All right . Uh, Mr . Fremg en ,
11 you want to be heard on some of these e xhibi t s?
12 I'l l excuse the jury for the afternoon and we can
13 t a l k about the exhi bits .
14 Ladies and gentlemen , you are done for
15 this afternoon . We'll see you tomorrow at 8 :3 0 .
16 Again, I remind you , don't talk about t hi s among
17 yourselves or a nyone e ls e . Have a good night .
19 THE COURT: All right . Be seated . At
20 i ssue are Exhibits 132 through, and including ,
21 1 40. You, Mr . Fremgen , or Mr . Ede lstein , have
22 have objections to one or the other of t hose?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge , I have no
24 objections to Exhibit 132, a nd 137 through 140 .
25 My objections are, specifically, to 133 and 136 .
247
1 They're curriculum vitae of the two witnesses. I
2 don't believe that that is evidence. I 'm not
3 entirely sure wh y they were even, urn, marked.
4 These witnesses were testifying already about
5 their expertise and their backgrounds. For
6 the -- for those two , that's the reason I have an
7 objection .
8 THE COURT: All right . You want to be
9 heard on that?
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: Just -- They're just
11 part of the record .
12 THE COURT : Uh, yeah. They can be
13 received . They're no t -- They 're not going to be
14 published to the jury or anything o f that sort,
15 so ...
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And if that's the
17 ruling of the Court, then I would have the same
18 as to 134 and 135, and -- and, simply, if it gets
19 to the point of what the jury wants to see, we
20 want to be heard on that , because, technically ,
21 those are reports . Technically, they ' re hearsay
22 reports . Um , the witnesses have already
23 testified . And it should be the reco llection of
24 the witnesses at the time of jury de liberations,
25 not what the reports say.
248
1 THE COURT : Yeah, I understand. I
2 I -- I will receive all of them subject to, uh,
3 the reservation of -- of hearing what gets
4 published or what goes back, if anything, to the
5 jury .
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : All right. That's
7 fine . That's -- that ' s all we would ask .
8 THE COURT : Okay. Uh, anything else?
10 THE COURT : All right. Uh, we'll meet in
11 my chambers in about ten minutes?
12 ATTORNEY FALLON : Sure.
13 THE COURT : We're adjourned until tomorrow
14 at 8 :3 0 then .
15 (Court stands adjourned at 4 : 01 p.m.)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
249
) SS .
4 I , Jennifer K. Hau, Official Court
11 transcription thereafter transcribed, and that i
13 proceedings had i n said matter to the best of my
15 Dated this //-J.i.. day of eti'lhh( L-' ' 2007.
16
17
18
19
,,
or.
j(
.,
Je~ni f~~ K. Hau, RPR
I t c/.
«L ' - - - - - -
!

20
21
22
23
24
25
250
I 126 [2] 106/18 106/19 21 (1] 210/23
127 [3] 3/14 106/17 107/8 211 [2] 4/4 4/21
'05 [1] 241/1 128 [8] 3/15 96/25 196/17 196/21 211 -217 [1] 4/5
'06 [3] 241/1 241/2 241/2 196/22 198/6 201 /21 202/23 217 [1] 4/5
'96 [1] 28/22 128-129 [1) 3/16 217-218 [1) 4/6
'97 [1] 28/22 129 [15] 3/16 102/11 102/24 197/16 218 [2) 4/6 417
'98 (1] 13417 197117 197/19 197/20 198/8 20316 219-240 11 J 4/10
'til r11 141117 206/23 208/22 209/12 21111 211/7 23 [5] 64/18 64/24 65/5 66/15 82/24
21813 24 [1] 220123
130 [2] 104/22 104/24 240 [3] 4/10 4/20 4/22
.22 (37] 95/10 97/2 101 /25 102/6 130-167 [1) 3/19 240-246 [1) 4/11
102/13 103/10 106/3 106/6 106/11 131 [3) 4/18 107/18 108/15 246 (1) 4/11
110/5 110/7 110/19 111 /7 111 /9 117/7 132 (1O] 4/19 154/4 154/8 154/9 154/17 246-247 [1] 4/12
117116 117/22 118/10 118/10 128110 167/8167/11240/7247/20 247/24 247 [1) 4/12
128/11 128/12 197/13 197/20 201/22 133 [5] 4/20 183/14 183/15 183/16 249 [3) 4/20 4/21 4/22
204/11 204/14 204116 205/13 20613 247/25 26 [1] 138/16
206/6 207/2 208/4 208/22 212116 134 [5) 210/16 210/19 210/20 211 /12 27 [2] 4/15 22016
212/23 214/24 248/18 28 [2) 3/4 4/15
.22 caliber [17] 101/25 102/6 102/13 134-135 [1] 4/21 28-40 [1] 3/5
103/10 106/3106/6106/11197/13 135[7] 4/21210/16210/19211/2 28th I1J 2516
197/20 204/11 204/14 205/13 206/3 211 /13 240/7 248/18 29 [1] 202/19
206/6 208/4 212/16 212123 136 [6] 221/13 221/15 221/17 221/18 2:57 (1 ] 219/2
.22s[3] 115/1117/23214/13 240/3 24 7/25 2nd r31 61/12 78/2 86/17
.50 [1] 101/24 136-140 [1 J 4/22
.50 caliber r11 101 /24 137 (5) 230/2 230/3 231/5 236/25
3
247124 3/1 /06 [1] 63/23
0 138 (6) 230/8 230/9 230/10 230/11 30 11 J 132124
06 131 1/6 5/5 63/23 231/18 232/12 30-some [1] 187/25
139 (6] 230/9 230/23 231 /20 231 /22 300 (1] 187/24
1 236/4 236124 31 [2] 47/2567/11
1-0 [1] 80/5 14 (4] 103/15 103/17 111/10 112/3 35mm [1} 32/18
10 [7] 81 /22 82/17 96/4 96/14 175/24 140 [6] 4/22 225/11 226/25 240/3 3:20 (1) 219/3
201/4211/3 247/21 247/24 3:59 11 1 247/18
100 [1] 49/6 15 [5] 6/12 175/24 201 /4 218/24 240/22
101 [1] 49/14 15-minute [1] 68/2
4
102 [1] 50/1 154 [1] 4/19 40 (1) 3/5
103 [1] 52/5 16 [5] 205/14 205/16 207 /3 207 /17 40-67 [1] 3/8
104 [1] 55/13 208/5 4731 [2] 127/10 127/10
105 [5) 58/1 9 61 /11 78/24 79/1 80/5 167 [3) 3/19 4/19 4/19 4:01 [1) 249/15
106 (1] 59/18 167-181 (1] 3/20 4:30 in [1] 140/2
107 [1] 60/18 17 [6] 1110 103/15 103/17 111/10 112/3 4:30 o.m r11 57/9
108 [4] 3/12 4/18 63/5 63/25 229/11
109 [2] 4/18 64/5 181 (1) 3/20
5
109-125 (1] 3113 181 -211 [1) 4/4 5-28 (1) 3/4
10:04 (1] 68/3 19 (3] 73/25 185/1 187/8 55-gallon [1] 148/20
10:29 [1] 68/4 19.7 (1) 216/14 5th [7] 7/11 7/14 8/19 9/24 15/1 15/16
11 (9] 96/4 96/14 113/6 119/9 167/2 1972 [2) 184/2 184/23 18/16
183/8 197/1 202/22 208/4 1973 [1) 185/1
110 [1] 64/21
6
1974 [1) 185/6
111 (3) 65/13 65/16 65/23 1975 [2] 185/12 185/25 60 [3] 102/1 197/22 208/22
112 [1] 56/2 1981 [4] 18412 184/3 186/9 187/3 67 [4] 3/8 4/16 4/16 66/23
113 [13] 65/15 65/25 203/10 207/21 1984 (2) 28/16 133/10 68 [2] 4/17 4/17
207125 208/1 208/13 208/21 209/1 1988 (2) 184/4 187/9 68-87 [1] 3/9
209/20 209/24 211 /4 213/22 1992 (2] 133111 133/16 6th [28] 89/15 89/19 90/2 90/7 91 /19
114 [15] 4/16 63/16 63/21 67/19 203/10 1994 [3] 6/23 28/21 29/1 92/1 93/16 94/9 94/17 95/25 97 /24
203/12 203/15 203/17 204/2 205/6 1995 [1] 28/22 104/6 105/4 105/8 105/8 120/1 120/9
206/22 207/1211/5213/22 218/3 1997 [1] 134/6 120/21 121/7 122/14 122/20 122/21
115 [6] 4/17 46/23 46/24 47/12 68/10 1998 [2] 134/6 184/4 123/9 125/25 126/1 126/14 127/18
68/13 1999 [1] 134/16 146/1
116 [2] 91/5 108114 1:00 [3] 129/21 129/22 129/25
116-131 [1) 4/18
7
1:01 [1) 130/4
117[1]93/9 1:15p.m[1] 136/20 72 [1) 9/14
118 [1] 95/3 1st 131 21/3 57/3 61/12 737-4731 [1] 127/10
119 [1] 95/13 76 [2] 163112 163/19
11 :54 [1] 130/3 2 77 [1] 66/3
12 [1] 240/22 20 {2] 73/25 132/23 79 (2) 10/14 27 /24
120 [2] 96/6 197/5 2000 (3] 131 /1 187/14 235/2 79-94 (1] 4115
121 [1] 98/9 2002 [3] 132/19 184/5 187/15 7:30 [1) 141/11
122 [1] 105/13 2005 [9] 7/12 7/14 21/17 41/12 54/16 7th [7] 31 /25 43/4 43/5 45/22 105/5
123 (1] 99/15 74/1 83/6 135/10 223/17 105/8 105/10
124[1] 104/11 2006 (10) 52/16 56/8 65/20 74/8 77125 8
125 [3] 3113 106/9 119/1 7914 210/23 21113 224/20 229/11
125-127 (1] 3/14 2007 (2] 1/10 250/15 80 (2) 10/23 68/25
adequate [2) 33/6 33/9 anyone (8) 37/21 114/14 120/22 136/21
8 adhesive [2] 245/3 245/9 136/25149/15150/4 247/17
81 [1] 11/7 adjacent[1] 64113 anytime [7] 116/5 119/8 129/21 134/25
82[1] 14/20 adjourn [1] 129/16 155/20 186/14 217/17
83 [1] 15/8 adjourned [2] 249/13 249/15 anyway [1] 144/2
84 [1] 17/13 administration [2] 219/6 222/8 anyways [2] 94/23 174/16
85 [1] 18/2 admission [2] 27/23 108/14 anywhere [1] 201/4
86 [2] 16/16 102/4 admissions [1] 67/18 apart [1] 111/23
8623 [1] 65/19 ADMITTED [1] 4/14 Apologize [1] 100/16
8 7 [2] 3/9 16/25 advice[1J 157/3 apparent [2) 45/4 231 /6
87-88 [1) 3/10 advised [1] 120/22 apparently [1] 85/5
88 [4) 1/6 3/10 5/5 19/13 affiliations [1 J 188/3 appear [4 J 23/15 70/5 70/15 173/3
88-108 [1] 3/12 AFTE [1] 188/25 appearance [2] 111/24 225/7
89 [1] 23/2 afternoon [14] 56/15 57/8 127/3129/19 APPEARANCES [1) 1/13
8:00[1] 141/11 130/5 130/7 130/9 146/15 211 /18 appeared [4) 1/25 45/8 45/12 71/24
8:30 [2] 247/15 249/14 219/15 247/6 247/8 247/12 247/15 appearing [1] 5/12
8:30 or (1] 141/14 afternoon's [1] 130/8 appears [11 J 5/7 5/8 5/14 5/15 16/1 8
8:34 [1] 5/1 afterwards [1] 178/22 70/22 81 /22 97/2 138/17 230/11 232/14
8th [15] 104/7 104/14 105/2 105/20 agencies [3] 41 /11 131 /7 135/4 application [1] 56/9
105/23 106/2 106/13 106/15 108/7 agency [4] 41/9 89/5 131/16 134/25 applicator [6) 26/21 27/1 27/3 27/4 2719
115/16 120/6 120/10 122/15 122/23 agent (31] 3/7 22/3 25/1 25/18 30/12 40/6
123/7 40/14 41119 42/2 42/10 44/1 45/14 appreciate (4) 6/9 9/5 90/1 219/9
50/11 52/20 52/22 52/23 56/7 56/16 apprenticeship {1] 222/15
9 62/16 64/3 67120 68/20 7019 71/20 apprenticeship-type [1 J 222/15
90 [3) 25/24 28/3 28/4 75/1178/9107/4 117/14 12 1/1 146/5 approached (1] 139/25
91 [1] 18/10 155/12 227/12 approaching [2] 30/12 30/19
92 [2J 18/18 18/21 agents [2] 75/12 227111 appropriate [2] 68/1 197/25
920-737-4731 [1] 127/10 agree [1 J 118/24 approximate [1] 145/23
93 [1] 20/12 agreement [2] 210/2 210/9 approximately [17) 6/12 42/16 53/5 57/9
94 [4] 4/15 27/13 27/16 27/24 a head [8) 20/1 21 /11 46/22 52/10 68/15 69/17 77/24 132/20 136/19 140/12
95 [4) 43/11 43/12 67118 69/1 77/11 89/13 100/12 148/17 158/17 164/16166/19187/21
95-114 (1] 4/16 air[10] 30/2061/764/1164/1364116 204/16 220/6 225/3
96 [1] 44/17 64/19 65/3 66/21 94/10 94/12 APRIL [5] 1/10 25/16 52/15 74/7 241 /2
97 [3] 46/6 46/18 47/15 allegedly [1) 128/7 April 3 [1) 25/16
98 [1] 48/3 allow [6] 60/9 117/24 118/13 118/17 aren't [4] 97/12 112/22 200/12 244/20
99 [1] 48/20 119/10 11 9/22 argue [1 J 124/1
9:00 [1) 141/15 allowed [2] 33/25 192/14 arguing [1] 217/11
9s [1] 31/9 alloy [1] 216/4 argumentative [1] 118/20
9th 151 21/12 2111 2 21/1 6 22/3 22/19 alluded [1] 75116 arm [1] 191/23
almost [2] 16/7 69/21 armor [2] 89/8 102/18
A along {1 2] 62/4 62/11 62/12 62/15 92/12 Arms [1] 101/24
a.m [5] 5/1 68/3 68/4 130/3 145/25 94/24 143n 149/19 150112 153/8 arranged [11 140/24
A310 (7] 47/24 49/24 50/4 50/6 50/9 232/22 233/18 arrangements [1] 57/20
67/10 224/2 alongside [1] 54/19 arrival [5] 7/19 8/3 57/3 141120 145/23
Abbott [1) 133/23 altered [1) 189/16 arrive [1] 137/3
above [1 OJ 14/24 15/3 15/6 15/12 39/6 altogether [1] 95/24 arrived (1 0] 41/22 57/7 57/16 79/10
63/9 65/1 101 /23 103/24 180/19 aluminum [1] 242/24 137/6137/19140/9141/5143/2 169/19
absence (2) 142/2 238/24 ammunition [20) 55/6 70/8 71/3 71/5 arriving [4] 8/5 8/14 31/13 140/15
abutted [1] 180/18 103/3 103/18 106/3 106/4 106/7 106/11 arson [3] 41 /6 44/25 72/1
ac [1] 216/3 116/10 128113 185/22 191 /9 198/23 ash [16] 53/17 76/19 147/23 148/7
Academy [1] 188/20 200/5 201/13 201/15 201/19 215/7 148/8 148117 148/22 153/15 153/16
accepted [2] 184/21 187/9 among [4] 55/5117/17174/2 247/16 155/22 156/16157/10 158/3173/15
access [6] 43/19 43/20 142/5 144/16 amount [3] 51/3 210/9 213/7 174/25 177/18
180/20 232/17 amounts [2] 160/6 160/6 ashen [1] 156/13
accessible [3) 177/20 177/24 179/15 analysis [19] 47/4 47/7 50/14 50/15 aside [1] 62/9
accompanied [2] 136/21 136/25 65/9 87/8 97/1197/16131/3 183/3 aspect [1] 73/3
accurately [1) 91 /18 222/19 224/11 224/15 226/11 228/1 1 aspects [2] 222/16 233/23
acetates (1 J 133/25 228/19 232/18 236/11 236/12 assigned [20) 8/118/158/20 21/8 31/5
acknowledge (1] 111 /5 analyst [5] 131/3132/5134/3 151/23 3714 37/15 41 /6 43/8 47/3 57/14 89/21
acquainted [1) 184/23 176/21 101/8 101/9 119/19 146/24 147/13
across [2) 117/23 11 8/10 analysts [2] 46/12 223/5 151/21 185/25 223/14
action [3] 61 /18 102/25 200/6 analyzed [1) 246/20 assignment[13] 41/7 42/8 45/24 45125
active (1) 220/22 and/or [1) 138/21 98/7 121/10 121/11121/12 137/19
actively [1) 220/15 Anderson [1] 134/1 O 151/7 152/22 153/4 159/18
activities (1] 42/6 Andrew [1) 8/17 assist [20) 10/11 23/22 31 /19 41 /12
activity (1] 222/15 angle [1 J 69119 41 /21 43/8 50/14 50/21 65/15 66/6 6616
Actu (1] 73122 animal [1] 178/17 66125 76/11 89/9 91 /5 135/11 146/7
ad [1] 59/7 animation [1] 163/18 154/2 173/6 222/10
additional [9] 26/12 56/17 56/23 61/8 anthropologist [3] 54/7 76/11 226/13 assistance [4] 10118131/6 136/3 206/8
78/9 89/7 155115 172/15 224/4 anticipated [1] 247/9 Assistant [3] 5/9 5/1 O 5/1 1
additionally [2) 189/17 208/12 anticipation [1] 214/22 assisted [7] 25/14 41/24 54/18 149/15
address [1] 12717 anybody [3] 117111 119/15 126/2 155/10 155/16 250/10
adept[1] 111/22 anymore (1) 207/11 assisting (5] 41 /8 41 /1 O 45/19 173/18
22/18 23/20 24/20 31/6 31 /1 9 42/1 bedding [13] 101/17121/13 121/17
A 42/12 43/7 50/16 51/4 56/1 1 69/17 73/7 121 /23 122/3 122/6 122/7 122/11
assisting ... [1] 174/3 75/8 77/25 89/16 90/9 101/14 105/7 122/14 122/15 122/21 123/5 125/14
associated [4] 146/13 236/23 237 /17 105/22 105/24 106/5 106/16 11 0/11 bedroom [36) 9/9 9/10 9/21 9/23 13/18
239/16 110/13 110/24 118/21 126/10 128/20 13/19 13/19 13/21 13/23 16/11 16/19
association [6] 188/8 188/25 212/19 160/9 17/4 17/16 18/6 18/15 18/23 33/17
223/2 223/3 223/5 Avery's [4 7] 8/24 9/17 10/13 10/20 33/23 34/3 101/17 101/22 102/13
associations [2] 188/3 222/23 14/23 14/25 16/11 17/16 18/6 18/15 103/23 106/4 106/7 106/12 106/16
assume [14] 6/25 23/10 85/11 85/13 18/23 19/24 20/16 43/14 43/21 43/22 106/21 107/12 107/21 108/8 115/5
111/20114/3123/22170/16171/20 48/11 49/23 50/20 51/5 51/10 56/22 115/7 116/10 122/21 122/25
172/11 173/2 176/7 176/25 201 /4 57/12 58/23 60/15 67/4 79/3 91/18 beds [1] 122/18
assumed [2] 37/24 58/14 101/11 101/21 101/22 102/13 103/23 bedsheet [1] 74/4
assuming [4) 100/4 192/1 200/10 214/2 104/3 107/11 107/21 108/8 11 0/6 115/5 begun [1) 32/21
assumption [1] 242/5 117/15 121 /15 122/22 124/12 153/2 behind [211 43/19 50/19 51/5 53/25 61/6
assured [1] 196/5 159/22 159/22 159/23 62/25 63/2 94/16 95/22 98/2 142/10
attached [7] 107/24 108/1 138/25 avoid [1) 170/4 144/9 153/1 153/11 154/10 154/25
143/11 144/21 231/8 244/7 awaiting [1) 141/19 163/10 165/3 166/16 180/7 180/22
attachment [1) 231/9 away [101 87/14143/5159/6170/11 Bel [1] 137/5
attempt [10) 25/8 51116 53/25 100/13 172/13 176/6 234/3 234/7 234/19 237/9 believed [2] 51/22 82/3
114/7 119/21 160/16 160/24 180/22 awhile r21 133/24 145/13 belting [1] 55/8
212/14 bench [3] 60/8 60/9 60/1O
attempted [3] 144/15 168/18 212/20 8 beneath [1) 172/19
attempts [1] 144/12 B. [1) 219/23 benefit [3] 94/14 112/25 207/24
attend [2] 189/4 223/6 B. Olson [1] 219/23 besides [1) 45/25
attending [1) 188/24 Bachelor [3] 184/10 184/16 222/1 best [7] 32/25 141 /8 145/23 152/9
attention [12] 25/22 43/4 99/14 105/20 Bachelor's [2] 133/8 133/10 166/18 246/12 250/13
106/9 135/8 138/16 146/21 203/10 background [5] 43/19 133/4 183/17 bevel [2] 238/25 241117
230118 231 /21 232/18 221 /13 234/4 beveled [3] 23014 231 /2 238115
Attorney [1 49] 1/20 1/22 3/4 315 318 3/9 backgrounds [1] 248/5 beveling [1 O] 225/5 225/6 225/12
3110 3/12 3/13 3/14 3/15 3/16 3/19 3/20 backing [1] 245/17 228/23 231/3 235/22 235/24 238/6
4/4 4/5 4/6 4/7 4/10 4/11 4/12 5/3 5/6 backwards [1] 213/23 238/20 239/1
5/7 5/9 5/10 5/11 5/13 5/13 5/14 5/18 bad [2] 203/20 204/23 big [4] 26/21 158/1 161/25 202/9
6/3 8/1 8/2 18/25 19/1 24/6 24/10 24/17 bag [10] 65/18 97/7107/2 107/3116/11 bigger [2] 135/3 158/12
24/18 27/22 28/3 28/6 28/10 40/9 40/11 116/11 123/12 196/22 203/18 228/4 bill [3] 5/19 11 /9 13/11
40/14 40/24 67/17 67/23 68/8 68111 bags [5] 77/19 124/4 197/9 197/10 biological [8) 27/13 61/24 63/18 63/19
68/14 68/17 68/19 78/22 78/25 87115 227/3 136/10 142/21 143/10 143/15
87118 88/5 88/7 88/9 88/12 88/24 96/23 bailiwick [1) 217/19 biology [2) 133/6 133/22
96/24 100/3 100/11 100/15 100/22 baked [1] 153/17 Bissell [4] 104/9 104/13 105/1 123/7
101 /1 101/3 103/25 104/2 104/20 Baldwin [2] 21/9 37/3 bit [18) 6/8 9/16 12/18 15/23 20/1 89/25
104/23 108/10 108/19 108/21 108/22 bandied [1 J 193/19 91/24 95/5101/2 133/2172/20 175/4
108/23 108/25 109/5 11 8/19 119/2 Barb (1] 98/19 175/4 183/12 193/19 211 /24 219/9
125/20 125/22 126/4 126/9 126/17 bark [1) 139/12 221/12
126/22 127/12 127/15 127/20 127/24 barrel [91] 43/13 43/16 43/19 43/21 bits [1 J 139/13
128/5 128/16 128/17 128/19 129/1 43/24 44/6 44/10 44/13 44/14 44/19 black [7) 60/20 64/1 o66/18 81 /1 82/1
129/4 129/6 129/9 129/13 129/20 44/21 44/23 45/3 45/5 45/7 45/9 45/17 91/22 92/2
129/23130/7130/21 167/6167/12 45/23 46/3 46/11 48/11 49/9 49/20 blade [1) 156/13
167/15 170/22 181/9 181/13 181/15 49/23 66/24 67/6 68/22 69/1 69/6 69/8 blanket [1] 121/21
182/1 203/8 203/11 211 /11 211 /17 69/16 70/1 7016 70/16 70/18 71 /7 71 /8 bleach [13] 19/16 20/7 20/15 20/18
217/24 218/1 218/11218/14219/1 71/9 71110 71/14 71/17 147/19 147/19 20/21 36/19 36/22 37/6 37/22 162/1
219/12 219/16 219/25 225/15 226/4 147/21 148/18 148/20 148/24 149/12 162/5 162/8 162/9
226/6 226/8 226/9 240/1 240/8 240/13 150/18151/6153/22 174/4174/6 174/7 blocks [1) 137/8
240/19 240/21 246/5 246/7 247/1 247/2 174/7 174/8174/8 175/3175/6175/17 blood [20] 12/25 13/5 38/1 160/4 160/5
247/7 247/23 248/10 248/16 249/6 175/18176/3 176/6176/15 191/5 160/6 160/7 160/8 160/11 160/17 161/9
249/9 249/12 192/23 193/23 194/1 194/2 194/2 194/3 161/12161/20162/4163/4 165/22
aud io [1] 100/7 194/4 194/9 194/15 194/24 195/7 178/17 178/25 179/4 223/5
August[1] 184/23 195/14 195/16 199/9 199/12 199/25 bloodstain [1] 160/10
Aurora [3] 22/5 22/8 22/14 200/12 204/15 205/9 205/14 207/4 blow [1] 77/11
Austin [3] 66/5 134/9 134/13 217/13 221 /5 223/16 223/19 224/18 blue (1) 107/22
authorize [1] 62/18 barreled [ 1] 15/5 bluish {1) 138/7
authorized (2) 20/3 21/6 barrels [18] 51/9 98/3 98/11 98/14 bluish/green [1] 138/7
auto [1] 137/23 98/23 147/2 147/5 147/7 147/16 147/22 body [1] 242/3
automatic [9] 102/1 102/7 102/13 147/23 148/16 149/10 173/16 173/21 bolt [1] 20016
102/23 102/25 103/10 185/23 193/8 175/21 199/13 207/10 bone [30] 53/22 54/22 54/25 76/13
197/23 basement [2] 52/7 53/1 158/12 225/7 225/14 225/21 225/23
automatically [1] 103/5 bathroom [8] 9/1 O9/22 19/24 20/16 226/1 227/2 228/4 228/5 229/19 230/24
automobile [1] 91/15 20/18 33/20 33/24 34/3 231/7 231/9 231/12 233/1 233/9 233/10
automobiles [1] 19/7 bathroom/laundry [2] 19/24 20/16 237/2 238/6 241121 241 /24 242/1 242/3
automotive [1] 60/6 batteries [3) 55/10 148/13 224/3 243/6 243/7 243/17
autopsies [2] 189/19 235/19 battery [2] 25/21 148/14 bones [5] 76/6 156/9 221/6 225/24
autopsy [1] 196/1 bay [2] 81 /3 109/20 243/19
AutoTrader[6] 10/2511/711/1011/13 bed [15] 13/24 14/23 14/24 14/25 15/3 bookcase [2] 17/22 17/24
13/15 126/25 15/6 15/12 101 /23 103/24 122/1 122/4 bookshelf [21 35/25 36/2
Avery [35) 7/15 13/19 21/7 22/7 22/15 122/6 122/16 122/20 122/24 bore [1 J 204/15
Bureau (3) 41/6 46/13 47/2 193/5 193/5 193/9 193/14 193/15
B bureaus [1] 41 /8 194/16 194/17 195/1 197/1 197/8
bot [1 ] 37/6 burn (64] 43/13 43/16 44/13 44/23 198/19 198/25 200/7 200/10 200/17
bottle (14] 19/16 19/23 20/8 20/15 20/18 46/11 48/11 49/9 49/19 49/23 50/19 201 /20 202/3 202/11 202/16 202/23
20/22 36/19 36/22 37/6 37/17 37/22 50/19 51/5 51/5 51/8 66/24 67/6 68/22 203/23 210/25 212/17 212/20 213/6
59/20 76/21 162/23 69/169/1670/25 71/2 71/3 71/10 71/14 235/5
bottom (4] 175/13 199/25 202/11 71/16 71/17 71/19 72/7 72111 72/11 cartridges [13) 112/8 119/3 198/5
215/13 72/15 72/23 72/24 72/25 73/18 74/12 199/20 199/23 199/24 200/1 201/1
Bowe (1] 121/4 74/12 74/21 74/25 75/3 75/15 76/5 98/3 201/5 201/22 201/24 202/1 212/12
box [27] 95/24 96/8 96/13 97/2 115/13 98/1198/1498/23 147/2 147/5 147/16 case [30] 1/6 9/14 21/23 79/18 102/3
115/20 116/1 117/12 117/23 119/5 150/18 151/6 153/1 153/21153/22 11 8/1 1 130/1 133/1 135/9 135/23
138/22 143/5 152/16 152/18 152/19 154/10 155/9173/18173/19173/21 146/14 156/11 182/24 183/6 186/4
156/21157/5170/15171/3177/9 174/4177/16178/7 223/18 224118 194/24 196/14 197/12 202/12 204/10
196/23 196/25 202/9 214/13 214/24 burned (16] 44/21 49/4 51/3 51/7 51/14 208/2 208/4 210/9 211/9 214/25 221 /2
215/6 227/1 53/17 53/17 53/18 56/5 67/7 7517 75/22 221 /4 223/13 223/15 235/5
boxed [1] 72/19 147/4147/24176/2 176/9 cases [5] 62/6 132/2 134/21 186/17
boxes (5] 73/21 155/21 159/1 180/15 burning (5] 176/7 221 /5 223/16 224/22 189/24
180/24 242/10 casing [14] 79/18 95/19 95/20 113/20
brake [1] 144/13 burnt [3] 148/6 148/13 153/13 11 4/19 185/15 189/21191/1 192/18
BRANCH [2] 1/1 250/5 Business [1] 222/7 193/5 193/6 193/10 193/1 5 195/1
branches [2] 138/21 171/1 4 businesses [1] 42/23 casings [39] 52/1 55/7 71/1 71/5 95/9
brand [2] 49/1 60/21 button r11 26/7 95/1 1 95/15 95/21 96/2 96/4 96/9 96/12
break [2] 7/22 68/1
BRENDAN [9] 1/7 1/24 20/4 24/23 c 97/3 97/5 97/12 97/13 113/6 114/2
114/16 119/9 119/12 119/20 125/15
56/19 59/5 61 /22 126/10 128/6 cables [1] 25/21 182/18 183/8 183/9 189/18 190/5 197/1
briefed [1] 12111 Cal [1] 109/10 197/8 198/19198/25 201/21 202/11
briefing [1] 42/4 calcium [5] 232/25 233/7 236/17 241 /19 202/16 202/23 203/23 210/25 212/20
bright [5] 229/23 231 /1 232/4 232/16 243/2 Cates (3] 149/21149/22151/21
237/17 caliber [23] 95/11 101 /24 101 /25 102/6 caught [2] 143/11 202/12
bringing [1 ] 53/10 102/13 103/10 106/3 106/6 106/11 caused (6] 85/18 185/17 217/10 217/12
brittle (1] 229/2 197/13 197/20 204/9 204/11 204/14 235/12 238/1
broader [1] 110/9 205/13 206/3 206/6 207/2 208/4 208/11 CCI (10] 114/25 201/22 212/14 212/16
broken [2] 142/13 205/22 208/22 212/16 212/23 212/22 213/13 213/15 213/24 214/3
brought [9] 22/8 22/14 73/8 74/6 75/3 California [6] 183/21 184/1 184/21 214/13
75/21 107/1 156/1 173/3 186/10 186/16 186/25 CD [1] 100/7
brush (8) 76/20 76/23 76/24 7717 139/6 caller (1] 10012 cell (6] 69/12 127/9 223/22 223/23
139/9 139/12 143/8 calls (2] 134/24 135/18 223/25 224/9
brushes (1] 53/14 Calumet [18] 5n 6/6 6/10 51/12 52/16 cellular (4] 47/25 48/7 48/25 49/18
buckets [5] 74/10 74/14 75/17 76/5 58/12 58/13 73/13 89/1 89/4 89/6 97/8 center {7] 8/14 94/7 121/2 12118 121/9
77/19 135/23 146/25 150/4 150/16 159/2 134/11 154/21
building [3] 8/21105/6154/25 177/10 central [3] 59/22 60/22 64/10
buildings [5] 72/5 101 /8 105/9 105/11 camera [9] 32/18 32/19 47/24 49/22 cer [1] 129/10
105/17 50/4 67/10 219/7 224/2 224/9 ceramic (1] 153/18
bullet (100] 51/25 51/25 62/19 63/14 Campbell [1] 29/18 certify [1] 250/6
63/14 63/22 63/24 64/19 65/2 65/4 65/5 camper [2] 151/13 151/13 CF (2] 1/6 5/5
65/12 65/20 65/22 65/24 66/12 66/15 Cancer (1) 134/1 O chain [1] 108/4
66/15 70/5 70/13 70/15 70/21 85/6 Canon (5] 47/24 49/24 50/4 67/10 224/2 chalk [5] 162/24 163/3 164/6 165/19
85/17 86/3 86/5 119/4 120/9 180/3 canopies [1] 137/12 166/4
185/15189/20190/23191/1191/5 canvass [4] 42/18 42/19 42/20 73/3 chamber [2] 103/5 200/8
192/5 192/17 192/20 192/25 193/2 cap (1) 220/5 chambers [1] 249/11
194/14 194/20 194/24 195/3 195/5 capable [3] 17/7 17/8 186/17 chance [1] 214/21
195/8 195/13 195/15 195/18 195/24 capacity (3] 7/11 200/20 220/5 changed [3] 39/24 111 /14 140/13
195/25 196/3 196/4 196/7 196/9 203/18 car [11] 79/18 80/12 81/23138/2 characteristic [1] 235/25
203/18 203/19 203/24 204/2 20417 142/20 144/23 153/14 154/12 156/5 characteristics [7] 204/6 204/1 7 205/25
204/8 204/9 204/10 204/11 204/19 170/12 178/13 206/25 207/15 215/22 218/5
204/20 204/22 205/6 205/11 205/17 cardboard [4] 138/22 143/5170/15 characterize [1] 120/13
205/18 205/19 205/20 205/23 205/25 171/3 charasteris 11 j 215/22
206/6 207/2 208/1 208/4 208/6 208/9 care [2] 97/9 159/5 charge [4] 121/1 121/5 137/14 155/11
208/9 208/12 208/15 208/25 209/8 career [ 1] 184/20 charred [8] 72/5 221/6 224/1 224/21
209/16 209/24 21 0/10 213/12 215/23 carefully [3] 30/18 157/1 250/8 225/4 225/24 229/1 229/12
217 /2 233/14 234/16 235/5 235/21 carpet [1 OJ 104/9 104/13 105/1 12317 check [5] 38/2 38/4 121/9 169/2 202/3
235/23 237/20 238/9 242/7 124/16 124/21 124/24 125/2 125/3 checked [2] 112/5 141 /16
bullet's [2] 193/4 204/23 125/15 checking [3) 164/5 198/10 198/10
bullets [34] 62/19 66/8 86/2 103/11 carpeting [1] 124/12 checkpoint [1] 137/9
120/3 120/9 125/16 156/10 182/18 carried [1] 156/6 chemical [2J 160/3 220/12
183/9 189/17 190/4 194/12 195/9 carry [1] 157/17 chemically [2] 161/11191/11
195/21 198/19 199/1 199/12 202/4 cars [1] 19/7 chemistry [2] 133/8 222/3
202/10 205/21 206/3 207/10 209/1 3 cartridge (55] 116/13 182/18 183/8 chest [8] 53/6 64/14 66/1 7 86/20 94/6
210/4 210/7 211/4 212/21 212/23 183/9 185/15 189/18 189/21 190/4 94/7 94/9 94/13
213/13 213/25 214/11 235/4 236/1 190/16 190/18 190/18 190/21190/25 chet [1] 53/6
bump [1] 163/24 191/3 191/4 191/14 191/18 191/21 chicken [1] 148/1
bumper [1) 163/24 192/1 192/4 192/4 192/8 192/10 192/14 chief[1] 151/25
bunch [1] 139/4 192/15 192/18 192/21 193/2 193/3 chiefly [2] 13113 131/17
confirmed (1] 163/11
c 150/11155/20 157/3157/8
collection (5) 21/1 74/17110/1117/19 confiscated [1 J 15/14
Chilton [1] 147/1 201/24 connected [1 J 130/2
chose [1] 87/4 College [3] 29/20 90/6 109/21 Connecticut [1) 101/24
Chuck (4) 149/21151/21152/11159/22 colloquially [1] 35/14 connection (2) 212/3 214/25
chunk [1) 206/12 color [3] 85/17 86/3 160/8 considerably (1] 237/1
circle [3) 114/8 162/19 162/25 colored [1] 86/1 consist (4) 28/24 29/14 121/17 131/10
circled (3) 83/7 163/2 164/6 combustible [2] 45n 53/18 consistency (1) 153/17
circles (7) 81 /20 82/6 83/11 83/14 83/23 coming (7) 30/20 62/15 137/12 139/14 consists (1 J 190/21
83/24 84/23 165n 165/15 195116 contact (9) 42/21 79/24 150/7 160/4
CIRCUIT (3) 1/1 1/12 250/5 command (5) 8/14 42/1 12112 121/8 194/14 194/25 195/16 205/1 207/1 2
circular (3) 70/17 70/22 165/10 121/9 contacted (3) 41 /19 56/16 136/13
circumference (1] 36/17 commence [1 J 130/9 contain (2] 66/24 103/10
cities (1) 135/6 commenced (1) 99/13 contained (7) 67n 67/9 119/5 124/3
citizen (1] 42/9 commented (2) 34/5 178/24 196/23 198/5 239/23
city (6) 42/8 183/24 184/4 187/6 187/1 O committed [1) 90/18 container (2] 116/14 122/5
187/11 commonly (2) 39/4 107/13 containers [2) 73/8 246/24
clarification (1] 217/24 Company(2] 111/13197/21 containing (2) 27/19 237/19
clarifies [1) 82/19 comparatively [1) 236/22 contains [3) 27/13 27/18 63/17
clarify [2) 72/22 183/20 compare [4] 48/14 97/13 208/16 215/18 contaminate (1) 77/14
class [3) 29/17 204/17 206/25 compared [4] 20/11 177/23 209/21 contaminated [3] 12116 13/4 13/8
classes [1) 29/14 210/11 contents [6] 45/18 65/19 147/22 153/22
clay [1 J 153/17 comparing [1) 234/11 176/8 224/17
clean (4) 76/21 76/25 142/7 213/12 comparison (4] 49/7 210/24 214/6 context [1] 176/24
cleaned [2) 159/5 178/21 220/13 continue [2] 7/25 138/20
cleaner [8) 101 /16 104/9 104/13 105/1 comparisons (3) 235/5 235/5 237/6 contribute [1] 132/13
123/7 123/9 124/2 125/15 complete (5) 9/25 65/11 106/1 159/14 contributed (2) 242/11 242/17
cleaning (2) 104/4 162/1 162/22 control (13] 135/16 234/4 234/6 234/10
clear [6] 65/21 107/13 144/22 180/22 completed (14] 30/23 31/13 44/1 47/1 234/17 234/19 237/6 239/4 239/9
198/2 238/13 57/22 58/4 73/10 151/5185/11 185/19 243/11 243/16 243/20 243/22
cleared [1) 111 /4 185/24 188/21 198/21 240/23 controlled [1] 144/4
clearer[1) 172/21 completing (1) 23/21 convenient [1] 44/8
clearing [1] 8/15 component (8] 48/23 49/3 49/8 49/16 conveyed (1] 138/12
clearly (3] 93/18 148/12 189/13 69/13 190/25191/2 19118 convicted [1] 128/20
CLERK (2) 88/14 104/22 components [13) 46/9 47/14 47/21 48/6 coordinator (1) 151/24
click [1] 200/15 48/15 48/22 50/3 67/8 148/10 150/19 copper (9] 161/22 162/5 206/2 215/25
Clinic (2) 22/5 22/8 190/22 224/3 224/9 216/2 216/3 216/3 216/3 242/20
clockwise (1) 205/9 composition (1) 214/8 com [1] 147/25
close (5) 48/9 53/7 55/15 64/23 116/5 compound [2] 105n 191/10 corner (13) 9/23 10/1 7 11 /1 2 6212 62/3
close-up [3] 48/9 55/15 64/23 compressor (11) 61 /7 64/11 64/13 64/16 62/12 64/15 78/16 85/23 91/10 230/19
closed (5) 38/17 74/4 115/23 116/1 64/19 65/3 66/21 82/24 94/10 94/13 230125 236n
145/3 120/8 corners [1) 74/5
closely [3] 53/21 141 /23 219/10 computer (1 OJ 10/16 11/3 11 /5 13/13 correctly [1] 170/22
closer [4] 48/5 85/18 95/5 244/25 32/1 32/4 44/2 66/4 163/18 250/10 correlation [2] 210/6 210/10
closest [1) 176/1 o computer-assisted [1] 250110 corresponding [1 J 49/18
closet[1) 122/5 computer-generated [2) 44/2 66/4 cotton [5) 26/21 27/1 27/3 40/6 246/1
closets [1) 14/1 computerized [1 ) 250/9 couch [1) 161/2
cloth [1) 157/16 con (1) 195/19 counsel (13) 5/2 28/2 40/10 100/10
clothing (6) 51 /24 55/10 55/12 55/15 concave (3) 225/6 225/13 235/23 100/19 108/18 125/19 129/8 181/8
55/19 179/11 concealed [2] 81 /8 136/2 211 /15 217/23 218/17 218/24
clue (1) 14/18 concentrated (1) 14/4 count (3) 96/12 96/14 96/14
clues [1) 123/15 concentration (1) 162/9 counter (1) 105/18
coated (2) 206/2 215/23 concentrations (2) 241/25 242/2 county [30) 1/1 5/7 6/6 6/10 8/16 29n
coating [1] 206/2 concept (3) 15/19 15/19 21 /3 41/2151/1352/17 58/12 58/13 58/14
cob (1] 148/1 concern (1) 80/3 73/13 89/1 89/4 89/6 89/8 97/8 102/18
cock [1) 191/23 concerned (1) 224/19 109/11 135/4 135/20 135/24 136/1
cocks (1) 200/8 conclude (4] 47/21 195/20 196/8 210/12 146/25 150/4 150/16 159/3 177/10
coiled (1) 148/4 concluded (1] 197/7 250/2
Colborn (9) 8/1714/4 17/10 17/23 32118 conclusions (4) 45/2 206/20 206/24 couple (11] 21 /1 1 29/14 66/3 159/21
33/22 89/22 105/24 115/6 210/22 15112 183/25 184/25 188/18 202n
colleague (1] 145/18 concrete [3] 63/10 66/13 81 /21 218/25 222n
collect [20] 7/7 22/11 25/16 26/15 56/23 condition (5) 113/8 198/11 204/1 204/24 course (23) 52/14 61 /18 75/9 123/19
82/4 84/16 84/18 86/24 86/25 91/1 228/24 124/17 182/8 182/11 182/17 183/1
114/10 125/5 125/9 135/1 143/12 conditions [2] 139/23 144/5 185/2 185/13 185/19 185/22 187/25
156/21 163/7 164/8 17114 conducive (1) 53/7 188/21 189/3 191/6192/23194/8 197/2
collected (33) 12/1 19/21 20/24 37/6 conduct [4] 42/9 57/14 60/12 224/7 199/8 199/10 244/19
37/16 65/20 74/16 84/4 84/11 86/17 conducted (5] 10/5 58/5 72/25 73/6 courses [7] 184/13 184/15 185/25
86/18 87/7 87/14 95/10 95/23 97/15 156/2 188/15 188/19 222/6 222/8
102/12 104/9 106/6 106/22 106/24 conducting (2) 42/17 57/12 cover (4) 45/12 48/6 48/24 69/13
106/25107/15110/4118/2119/9151/3 cones (3) 80/7 80/7 81 /17 covered (8) 53/8 81 /6 136/11 139/17
159/1 164/8 164/13 166/17 176/14 configuration [1) 111 /14 140/10 140/11 144/25 169/17
176/15 confined (2) 33/7 33/25 covers [1) 142/12
collecting (8) 21/23 29/3 91/3 131/7 confirm [2) 161/5 165/21 crack (4) 63/9 66/13 85/8 93/18
187/10
c darkness [1) 162/22
DASSEY [15] 1/7 1124 5/5 20/5 24/5 Departments (1] 135/5
cracked [1] 142/12 24/11 24/2124/2356/19 57/5 61/22 depending [2] 103/14 162/8
cracks [1] 120/3 62/17 88/2 126/10 128/7 depends [1] 112/18
cranial [1 OJ 225/11 225/19 225/23 226/1 Dassey's (4] 21/4 59/5 59/25 98/16 depict [3] 52/9 66/19 91/18
227/4 227/5 227/6 228/5 229/12 231/14 Dassidly [1] 128/7 depicted (7) 4 7/22 63/24 91 /12 108/3
crawling [1] 144/18 date [9] 111 O 25/3 63/22 90120 95/16 114/24 163/13 197/5
create [2] 156/23 194/23 122/13 122/13 123/3 128/14 depiction [1] 23/14
created (5] 66/5 192/21 194/14 195/13 dated (3] 210/23 211 /2 250/15 depicts [1] 52/11
205/10 dates [1] 73/25 depositing {1] 246/15
creating [1] 195/22 Dave [4] 8/17 11 /4 58/14 135/20 deposits [ 1) 242/17
creeper [17) 60/1 60/5 60/7 60/14 60/19 day [28) 1/5 16/6 16/23 18/22 21 /13 depression [2) 153/11 177/23
60/21 61/1 61/7 64/1 1 66/19 82/1 86/6 32/3 54/15 57/24 62/14 64/7 89/24 deputies [2] 8/16 36/11
86/22 87/5 87/11 91/22 92/2 90/12 9112 101/6101/13 115/15 120/4 deputy (20) 3/11 20/24 21 /8 25/13 37/15
crew [1 ] 75/4 121/11 125/25 136/20 146/17 146/18 89/7 89/9 95/25 97/21 101/4 101/12
crime [75) 6/23 7/5 24/1 29/6 29/12 147/9 149/24 151/7159/19185/21 102/8 103/8 104/2 109/6 111 /2 112/19
37/19 38/18 38/21 38/23 42/23 46/11 250/15 114/23 125/1 3 127/16
46/12 46/15 52/8 54/16 65/8 72/20 73/8 daylight [1 J 139/25 describe [38] 6/13 8/3 9/4 9/17 10/2
73/12 73/13 73/21 73/23 73/24 74/6 days [15] 16/719/2 19/5 21/11 42/10 13/20 13/21 14/20 15/22 17/17 23/19
75/3 75/21 76/3 76/16 82/8 83/25 84/21 42/13 52/14 52/14 52/15 75/10 90/25 2~1126/1843/1050n45M1154113
84/22 87/4 87/6 87/9 90/17 107/4 146/12 149/24 153/20 174/19 5514 57/158/206713 90/1190/1391/13
130/23 130/24 131/4 131/5 131/8 DCI [4) 30/13 52/23 72/1 227/1 93/13 93/14 102/22 120/18 137/21
132/20 134/1 134/12 134/13 134/15 de [1] 52/11 138/8 138/8 139/22 144/6 147/20
135/6 145/24 177/11 178/8 178/14 deal [2] 84/9 168/16 155/24 224/25 226/22 229/16
182/4 185/21 185/21 186/8 187/2 dea It [5] 128/2 185/3 185/13 185/22 described [11) 66/12 67/5 95/2 109/22
187/10 195/25 203/12 208/20 215/17 188/22 114/25 122/24 123/5 139/20 146/11
220/2 220/8 220/9 220/21 222/12 death [3] 41/13 52/2 89/11 200/13 207/9
222/13 223/3 223/9 226/16 234/23 debris (31] 44/2145/1051/3 51/7 51/14 describes (2) 210/24 211/5
235/10 235/1 8 239/20 52/13 53/11 53/16 53/16 55/6 56/6 69/9 describing [5] 10/11 65/15 6617 66125
crimes (1 ) 189/12 69/15 71/8 72/23 73/5 73/24 74/8 75/14 210/21
criminal [7] 41 /3 123/23 155/12 182/9 77120 79119 142/20 143/2 147/5 155/25 description [3] 183/17 206/17 211/3
182/21 185/5 227/12 156/24 158/9 165/14 169/21 171112 design [1] 204/18
criminalists [1] 186/16 173/15 designated (3] 216/12 229/14 229/15
critical [1] 117/20 December [5] 54/15 73/25 134/16 designation [5) 203/13 208/20 226/17
cropped [1) 154/18 223/17 241 /1 231/14 239/21
cross [24] 3/5 3/9 3/13 3/20 4/5 4/11 December 19 [1] 73/25 designed [4] 190/19191/13 191/24
28/8 28/9 68/6 68/18 109/3 109/4 decision [3] 86/23 143/17 143/21 193/7
127/22 167/9 167/13 167/14 170/21 Dedering [1] 58/11 desk [7] 11/3 11/5 11/6 13/13 17/21
211/14 211/15 21 1/16 235/2 240/5 deemed [1) 150/10 17/25115/7
240/17 240/18 deep (6] 22125 23/15 92/11 92/15 destroyed [1] 30/16
cross-examination [16] 3/5 3/9 3/13 148/17 202/7 destruction [1] 235/3
3120 4/5 4/11 28/9 68/6 68/18 109/4 deer [1] 178/21 detached [4) 43/21 57/15 67/4 90/9
167/9 167/14 211/14 211/16 240/5 Deere [1] 94/2 detail [6] 9/17 138/9 153/25 200/13
240/18 defect [28) 224/23 227/7 228/8 228/21 208/13 229/17
cross-training [1] 235/2 229/20 230/4 230/25 231 /2 231 /8 detailed [4) 51/1 5 90/21 94/19 224/14
crumpled [1) 152/3 233/13 234/4 234/7 234/12 234/15 details [1] 133/1
crusher [2] 138/2 144/23 234/20 235/11 235/15 237/10 237/15 detect (8] 178/25 233/2 233/12 233/21
Cryptographic [1) 47/3 237/1 7 237/22 238/1 238/5 238/15 234/8 237/10 239/1 242/4
cumbustible [1] 53/24 238/20 239/9 239/12 239/24 Detective (10) 8/17 8/18 11/4 14/5 14/6
currency [ 1] 188/15 defects [2] 195/14 195/17 32/17 58/13 89/22 99/10 135/20
current [3) 89/6 220/24 223/8 defend (1) 235/10 determination (4] 54/23 172/1 208/19
currently [3] 6/15 28/11 222/12 defendant [8] 1/8 1/21 1/23 1/24 5/15 232/21
curriculum [2] 183/16 248/1 20/4 88/2 217/17 determine [33] 37/12 37/21 53/25 61/23
cursor (1] 63/11 deficlt[1] 227/5 7616 86/10 117/11 119/4 142/14 176/9
cursory [3] 59/2 81 /25 93/1 define [1) 204/5 195/2 195/19 198/23 199/11 201 /7
Curtis [1] 47/1 defined [1] 191/24 202/15 202/22 204/5 204/9 205/4
custodian [2] 97/10 115/1 3 defining (1] 190/14 205/16 206/1 208/3 208/25 209/17
custody (3) 12/1 45/18 97/9 degree (21] 109/16 109/18 133/6 133/8 210/1 212/15 216/6 216/24 232/8 232/9
customer [1] 105/18 133/10 133/10 133/13 133/15 133/17 233/23 244/4
cut [7] 15/2 23/5 23/15 124/21 124/24 133/20 184/7 184/9 184/10 184/16 determined [6) 193/6 199/10 199/16
125/2 245/1 g 203/1 209/4 218/7 221 /23 222/1 239/17 201/3 201/21 21 1/1
cutting (1] 5 7/21 239/22 determining [3] 76/12 189/15 208/10
CV [1] 240/3 deliberations [1] 248/24 develop [1] 237/5
cycled [1 ] 103/5 demon (1) 49/15 development [1] 222125
cvlindrical r21 61/6 63/12 demonstrate [1] 209/22 device [5) 45/13 112/14 112/16 112/18
demonstration [1] 49/15 113/23
D dense [2] 229/24 237/18 devices [4] 46/10 47/7 47/23 51/24
Daisy (3) 55/17 55/19 55/22 dent (1 ) 142/9 diagnostic (1] 133/25
damage [2] 142/8 156/23 dental [2] 53/23 228/6 diagram [2] 74/20 164/16
damaged [3] 49/4 49/8 49/17 Department [24] 6/7 6/10 6/11 6/14 8/17 diameter [4) 162/19 167/1 204/15 225/3
Dan [1] 88/12 25/14 28/13 29/8 29/19 4112 41/4 51113 difference [1] 231 /6
DANIEL (3] 3/1188/1688/21 52/16 73/14 97/8 107/8 109/15 134/12 differences 12] 209/16 213/21
dark [3] 94/12 140/1 158/20 147/1 150/5 150/17 183/21 184/22 difficult [1] 241/3
drawn (1] 81/21 embossed [1] 50/5
D drive (3] 79/14 131/21 144/10 employ [1] 239/3
diffuse [1] 165/6 driver (2] 145/5 145/18 employed (17) 6/5 619 6/11 7/11 21/13
dig [3] 157/11157/12 175/13 driveshaft [1] 144/21 41/1 41/2 88/25 89/1 130/22 182/2
digging [1] 72/19 driveshafts [1) 144/19 182/3 199/3 220/1 220/4 220/17 222/13
digital [3] 32/18 47/24 50/4 driveway (5) 43/18 43/20 43/22 43/23 empty [2] 20/25 212/12
diluted [2] 160/5 178/25 83/8 enclosed [1] 145/15
direct [22] 3/4 3/8 3/12 3/19 4/4 4/1 O 612 drop (6] 27/2 112/17 171/17 200/1 encountered [1) 186/19
40/23 68/23 73/6 88/23 99/14 106/9 20016 202/10 end (11] 9/11 23/21 25/5 34/21 92/22
121/14126/16 130/20 135/8 138/16 drops (1) 27/2 107/22 108/1 138/14 144/20 156/5
146/21181/25 219/24 243/1 drove [3] 138/1 145/6 145/22 180/3
directed (9) 8/5 22/3 31 /11 135/19 drugs (1) 220/13 endangered [1] 105/19
137/10 137/17 137/25 142/25 244/8 drums [1] 148/20 endangered/missing [1] 105/19
directing [6] 16/1 25/22 43/4 105/20 due [3] 30/11 69/21 179/15 ended (1) 144/18
230/18 231/21 duly (6) 5/22 40/18 88/17 130/14 181 /19 ends (1) 113/2
direction (6) 10/8 14/18 172/7 191 /7 219/19 energy (1) 228/18
192/24 192/24 dusk [2] 140/1 140/3 enforcement (14] 11/18 14/11 15/21
directly [11) 9/715/615/1217/21 51/5 dust (1) 77/12 17/6 24/24 44/24 51/18 54/14 87/19
64/9 64/13 66/17 97/25 112/24 209/21 dustpan [1] 156/15 87/22 93/2 131/6 166/9 235/20
director [1] 136/13 duties [17] 6/14 7/19 8/2 21/16 29/2 engaged (1) 220/16
dirt [5] 76/18 76/19 77/12 92/19138/4 2914 2916 37 /15 41 /4 41 /8 89/6 89/7 engine (1] 81/1
disbursed [1] 228/18 89/19 146/13 146/23 147/13 220/9 engravings (1) 195/12
discern [1] 172/25 dutv f51 29/10 29/10 29/24 31 /3 151 /25 enough (6) 33/4 33/4 152/5 163/6
discharged (1] 218/3 209/25 210/11
discipline (1] 97/17 E ensure [1] 156/23
disciplines (2] 132/8 186/20 E-r-t-1 [1] 130/19 entail [1] 7/2
disconnect (1] 144/17 earlier [6] 67 /6 72/22 153/20 160/14 entailed (1] 24/2
discussed (1) 66/15 164/7 238/5 enter (2] 97/7 168/18
discussion [1] 65/11 early [9] 15/13 15/14 28/22 41 /22 57/4 entered [5] 14/3 81 /24 96/10 98/4 99/10
dispatched (1] 29/7 84/8 85/24 90/11 90/20 entering [1] 32/6
display [1] 114/24 easier [3] 163/19 232/1 241 /12 entire (13) 9/25 19/3 23/24 24/21 32/14
dissimilar (1] 191 /11 east[4] 62/4 62/11 92/16 93/19 32/20 39/9 39/10 55/23 58/5 87/5
distance [2] 114/19 172/13 easy (1] 206/1 132/13 179/13
distances [1] 190/10 EDELSTEIN [21) 1/22 3/13 3/15 4/5 4/7 entirely [2] 180/9 248/3
distilled (2) 26/22 26/25 5/14 109/5 118/20 118/25 119/2 125/23 entirety [1] 87 /1
distinctive [2] 69/14 160/8 126/4 127/24 128/5128/16 129/1 129/4 entities [1] 109/25
distribution [ 1] 164/24 211/17 218/11218/14247/21 entrance (19) 9/6 69/24 224/23 227/4
District [3) 5/7 519 5/11 edge (5] 63/11 65/1230/5231/1 231/2 227/7 228/8 228/21 229/20 230/4
disturbing [1] 45/4 edges [1] 241/17 230/25 231 /2 231 /8 233/13 234/3 234/7
divided [1] 57/10 education [1] 133/18 234/15 234/20 237/16 243/21
Division [3] 41 /3 155/12 227 /12 educational [3] 109/25 133/3 221 /22 entry (1) 57/21
DNA (21) 7/9 12/9 12/25 22/9 25/19 effect [1) 207/14 equipment [6] 60/8 92/14 104/5 141 /20
26/15 26/20 27/19 34/17 34/19 37 /25 effects [1) 238/6 142/19 152/25
38/5 86/11 119/11 131/3 131/3 132/6 effort [1] 19/2 equipped [1) 224/11
133/25 134/3 163/7 220/14 efforts (11] 10/1113/2114/519/4 42/14 ERTL [6] 3/18 130/10 130/13 130/18
doctor [4) 133/2 133/5 240/20 246/3 43/7 89/10 101/6156/22 214/5 215/18 135/9 167/16
document (6) 11 /12 11 /24 22/11 22/18 eight [6] 16/7 42/10 96122 96/23 205/4 especially (1 J 44/25
36/25 114/14 230/23 essentially [10) 30/732/10114/4168/15
documentation [1] 84/2 eighth (1] 157/19 173/22 191 /16 192/12 199/16 202/8
documented [2) 31/12 45/16 eighth-inch [1] 157/19 213/4
documenting [6) 12/5 14/8 36/5 37/4 Eisenberg [9] 54/4 54/7 54/9 54/12 establish [2] 24/13 122/12
58/6 198/11 226/13 227/15 229/10 229/13 231 /11 estimate (4] 141/8 145/23 166/18
dogs [1] 31/12 Eisenberg's [1] 229/21 187/20
doing (17] 11/2519/10 30/21 31/16 EJ [12] 227/1 227/11 227/24 228/1 etc [2] 143/9 180/15
39/16 62/1 132/4 160/21 174/9 174/10 228/10 229/19 230/11 235/8 236/25 etched [1] 50/5
174/14 176/7 186/17 188/1 232/17 237/2 239/15 241/14 ev (1] 170/23
235/4 236/11 ejected [2] 193/1 O 202/12 evaluated [2] 240/23 241/1
doo [1] 91/15 EK [4] 227/11 227/25 228/1 228/8 evaluation [2] 242/21 244/20
door (12) 25/19 39/25 57/18 57/19 58/1 el (1] 237/24 evening (1 OJ 8/19 11 /23 16/4 57 /5 59/2
58/24 59/1 79/7 7917 91 /9 164/24 electrical [1] 224/3 84/8 140/5 140/6 146/16 158/24
168/23 electron [2] 228/18 232/5 eventually [6] 48/10 58/13 136/16 159/2
doors [3] 142/4 142/14 142/17 electronic [9] 45/13 46/10 47/3 47/7 177/12 195/4
doorway [1] 14/7 47/14 47/23 51/24 67/8 148/10 everybody [1] 114/4
dozen [1] 166/21 electronics [1] 46/19 everyone [2] 33/15 113/16
Dr [3] 54/4 54/7 231/11 element [2] 236/18 236/20 everything [8] 75/19 94/19 125/14 148/8
Dr. [8] 54/9 54/12 130/10 226/12 227 /15 elemental (13] 228/19 233/3 233/4 176/15 214/17 241/4 241/5
229/10 229/13 229/21 233/19 233/21 233/24 234/8 235/9 everywhere [1] 165/8
Dr. Eisenberg [5] 54/9 54/12 227/15 236/18 237/25 239/1 239/16 239/23 evidence [118] 6/22 7/1 717 7/8 7/8 719
229/10 229/13 elements [13] 30/19 145/8 232/9 232/24 8/11 11 /25 12/1 12/10 12/23 13/3 13/8
Dr. Eisenberg's (1) 229/21 233/1 233/6 233/8 234/5 236/16 242/23 14/18 19/1619/18 19/21 24/7 25/8
Dr. John [1] 130/1 O 243/3 243/9 243/12 25/13 25/15 26/20 27/17 27/19 28/16
Dr. Leslie [1) 226/12 else's [3] 37/13 38/2 87/9 29/3 29/3 29/9 30/3 30/15 32/19 34/12
drawer [1] 13/13 elsewhere [1] 233/25 35/12 38/143/945/18 51/17 51/18
execution [2] 31/7 56/14 FALLON (36] 1/16 3/19 4/4 4/6 4/10
E exemplar [2] 49/1 49/9 4112 5110 13on 13012116116110123
evidence ... (80] 56/23 59/4 59/12 61/24 exemplars [3] 21/24 2219 22/12 181 /9 181 /13 181 /15 182/1 203/8
61125 62123 63n 65/6 65118 65/18 exhibit(158) 9/13 9/14 10/14 10/22 203/1 1 211/11 217/24 218/1 21911
72/13 76/22 80/6 80/9 84/4 84/11 84/13 10/23 11/2 11 /7 14/20 15/8 16/16 16/25 219/11 219/12 219/16 219/25 226/4
84/15 84/17 86/11 87/3 89/8 90/3 90/5 17/13 18/2 18/918/18 18/21 19/13 240/1 240/8 240/21 246/5 24617 247/1
91 /2 96/10 9717 97/9 98/5 100/8 102/3 19/13 19/14 20/12 23/2 25/23 27112 247/7 248/10 249/6 249/12
104/9 104/14 106/8 107/7 107/11 27 /15 43/11 43/12 44/17 46/6 46/18 family (1] 22/7
107114 110/1 117/3 117/4 117/19 118/4 46/23 46/24 47/12 47/15 48/3 48/20 far (6) 38/1 O 137116 172/17 177/1 8
119/11 120/19 123/19 124/3 124/10 48/24 49/6 49/14 50/1 52/4 55/13 56/1 178/14 216/22
131 /7 135/1 136/9 136/10 142/22 58/19 59/17 60/17 61/10 63/4 63/16 fashion [6] 58/7 97/22 117/24 118/12
143/15 143/23 150/11 167/7 170/4 63/21 63/25 63/25 64/4 64/21 65/15 118117 119/22
170/17170/24171/6171/24172/16 65/23 65/25 66/3 66/6 66/22 66/23 fashioned [1) 100/17
182/8 182/10 182/15 182/21 182/25 68/25 78/23 79/1 80/5 91 /5 93/9 95/3 Fassbender [13] 22/3 25/1 25/18 30/12
189/10 196/17 203/5 210/21 220/1 0 95/12 96/5 96/19 96/25 98/9 99/15 41120 42/2 56/16 117/14 117/21 118/9
220/16 222/14 222/16 222/21 223/15 102/4 102/9 102/1 0 102/23 104/10 120/22 137/14 146/6
240/4 244/22 248/2 104/22 104/24 105/13 106/9 106/17 FBI [9) 46/16 47/12 48/14 49/12 67/14
evidential [1) 178/2 106/18 107/8 107/18 108/12 11911 188/20 211 /24 212/5 224/16
evidentiary [14] 34/1 O 34/15 34/16 127/13 138/16 154/4 154/7 154/8 154/9 feature [1] 26/11
34/20 35/8 36/12 36/15 55/1 63/18 84/7 154/17 163/12 163/19167/7 183/14 features [ 1] 204/18
92/3 123/15 124/22 150/10 183/15 183/16 196/17 196/21 196/22 February [4) 25/5 210123 224/20 241/1
exact [1] 12/5 197/5 197/16 197/17 197/20 198/5 February 21 [1] 210/23
exactly [13] 10/9 12/24 14/13 15/25 198/7 201/21 202/19 202/23 203/5 fed [1] 112/13
16/5 23/25 36/6 38/19 111 /16 121 /24 203/11 203/15 203/17 204/2 205/6 Federa I [2) 46/13 4 7/1
155/24 206/5 207/19 206/22 206/23 207/21 207/25 208/1 feel [3) 43/2 43/2 132/13
exam [4) 73/6 215/5 223/21 244/12 208/13 208/21 208/21 209/1 209/12 feet [5] 92/11 114/20 148/21 202/6
examination (71] 3/4 3/5 3/8 3/9 3/10 209120 209/24 210/19 210/20 211/1 20217
3/12 3/13 3/14 3/15 3/16 3/19 3/20 4/4 211/2 218/3 221/13 221/15 221/17 fellow[1] 17/6
415 4/6 417 4/10 4/11 4/12 6/2 22/9 221 /18 221 /19 225/10 225/11 226/25 felon [1] 128/20
22/18 22/2128/940/23 46/25 51/16 230/3 230/11 230/16 230/20 230/23 felt [9) 51123 52/1 53/22 54/21 56/24
52/13 68/6 68/18 73/5 73/9 75/23 87/17 231 /17 232/12 233/25 236/4 236/8 82/14 84/14 143/3 176/12
88/23 109/4 125/21 128/4 128/18 236/24 236/25 238/19 24 7124 female [2] 100/1 108/1
130/20 167/9167/14181/25183/10 exhibits [17] 4/14 27/24 66/3 67/18 fence [2] 138/24 143/9
196/6 197/12 198/3 198/9 199/15 67122 67/25 108114 108/17 203/10 fencing [2) 138/25 138/25
202/15 203/4 206/5 208/2 210/24 210/16 211/4 211/12 230/8 240/2 few (7] 31/7 33/1 153/20 161/8 161/15
211 /14 211116 213/13 214/13 214/25 247/11247/13247/20 240/15 241/11
217/15 217/25 218/13 219/24 220/10 exhuming [1) 156/8 fiber [1) 124/3
22919 236/8 237/22 240/5 240/18 expect [6] 129/18 153/19 196/7 209/18 fibers [1 6) 143/10 220/11 244/4 244/7
244/11 246/6 210/3 210/6 244/17 245/8 245/11 245/20 245/22
examinations (12) 72/11 72/25 75/12 expected [2] 199/17 246/8 245/24 245/25 246/1 246/9 246/13
182/12 182119 183/5 190/4 197/8 expelled [1] 193/2 246/14 246/15
198/22 199/7 201/18 221/9 experience (18] 7/1 44/24 45/1 60/6 field [17] 86/25131/19132/4132/7
examine [41) 53/21 61/19 71/8 75/14 7219 90/3 183/18 183/24 184/19 186/11 132/17 132/22 134/20 134/21 145/22
85/18 11 1/23 119/2 119/3 141 /22 187/1 206/9 211/23 221/22 222/5 151 /24 152/20 188/4 195/1 1 220/16
142/20 143/18 149/8 151 /17 180/23 234/21 235/18 246/11 220/20 220/22 235/18
182/7 182/15 182/17 195/9 196/18 experiences [1 J 134/19 fifth 121 141n 175/18
197/13 203/21204/4207/22 214/16 expert [4] 50/8 7016 187/22 225/20 figure [2] 157/6 192/7
220/10 221/3 223/18 224/12 224/20 experti (1) 72/8 figured [11 36/16
224/23 225/1 228/13 229/10 233/18 expertise [6] 70/7 71 /25 97/19 224/19 file [1] 214/18
233/22 243/7 243/8 244/3 244/6 245/11 225/21 248/5 filed [2] 194/17 211 /9
245/18 explain [8] 1211712/18 81/23 117/19 fill [1J 220/25
examined (37] 5/23 40/19 46/14 62/8 128/9 159/25 183/11 231/5 filled [1] 137/16
73124 74/8 75/9 88/18 130/15 143/8 explode [3] 191/15 191/16 192/5 film (1) 246/20
171/5 176/22 181/20 201/20 204/24 explodes [1] 191/4 final [1 ] 9/10
205/11 209/11 214/14 215/2 216/11 explosion [1] 192/22 finally (4] 49/14 137/9 145/14190/7
219/20 223/15 225/12 226/16 227/17 exposed (3] 145/8 145/11 179/17 findings (11) 47/18 47/20 166/8 182/12
227/22 227/23 227/25 228/25 230/12 extensive [1] 222/16 183/12196/13 210/21211/5235/9
233/19 233/20 239/13 239/15 243/18 extent[4] 140/13 165/15 170/3 181/2 235/16 237/13
243/20 246/10 exterior [4] 25/20 30/15 57/17 170/3 fine (6) 108/25 109/1 168/13 218/10
examiner (7) 182/3 182/6 182/14 184/19 extra [1J 112/18 241/10 249/7
186/22 187/4188/11 extract [4] 37/18 177/1 177/2 193/16 finely [1] 53/15
examiners [8] 185/2 185/9 186/5 186/12 extracted [1) 193/10 finer [1] 158/5
186/15 187/12 188/9 189/1 eye [2] 179/5 206/10 finger (41 22/24 23/4 23/5 39/5
examining [8] 52/12 61/23 189/10 eyes [1] 244/20 fingerprint [9] 117/3 117/25 118/4 136/9
189/14 197/4 224/17 232/10 235/3 evesiaht 111 53/8 143/3 151/23170/19176/20 177/2
exception (1] 193/24 fingerp rints [12) 7/9 37/12 37/19 37/23
exclusion [1] 209/7
F 37/24 38/3 38/4 117/2 118/14 11 9/23
excuse [11] 5/9 36/24 48/19 98/15 face [4] 42/21 42/21 60/20 228/5 151/22152/12
101/4 106/18 173/15 194/17 228/1 facility (21 22115 38/19 finish [1] 149/11
240/2 247/12 facing [1] 39/3 finished [6] 75/17 98/1 101/7 147/6
execute (2) 8/23 21 /10 fairly [2] 111/22 206/1 147/1 5 149/13
executed [1] 22/7 fall (5] 149/8 156/19 158/6 185/1 185/6 finishing [1] 62/14
executing [2] 19/22 146/7 fallen (3] 159/3 159/9 159/10 fire [24J 45/6 49/16 153/12 186/23
followed [1] 145/6 functioned [1] 201/8
F following [3] 52/15 62/14 119/20 functioning [1] 199/17
fire ... [20] 190/17 191 /15 191 /25 192/10 follows [6] 5/23 40/19 88/18 130/15 further [13] 27/25 45/22 65/8 67/19
198/8 198/17 198/24 198/24 199/14 181/20 219/20 70/19 87 /8 108/15 143/18 170/15 181 /7
199/22 200/4 200/10 200/14 201 /12 food [1] 147/24 224/5 247/1 247/5
201 /16 202/7 202/9 213/25 242/9 food-type [1] 147/24 futile 111 172/17
242/16 foot [12] 148/22 153/10 157/12 157/23
firearm [10] 17/3 70/11101/20 102/15 157/23 165/5 165/9 173/4 180/9 180/19
G
10211111217 117n 189112 206122 180/19 202/6 GAHN [2] 1/18 5/11
212/4 foot-and-a-half [2] 148/22 180/19 gain [1] 142/4
firearms [49] 15/4 15/5 15114 15116 footwear [3] 172/23 17311 17318 gained [1] 56118
15118 16/18 7018 97114 101 /13 101 /15 forces [1] 191 /5 gallon [2) 74/9 148/20
101 /20 110/4 110111 110/13 110/14 foregoing [2] 250/7 250/7 gar [2] 69123 179/3
110/16110/22111/4111/6111/22 foreground [1] 66/14 garage (133] 43/21 43/23 50/20 56/11
182/3 182/6 182/14 183/4 184/19 forensic [7) 54/7 76/11 220/2 220/7 56/22 57/2 57/15 57/17 57/19 57/21
184/24 185/4 185/9 186/1 186/3 186/17 223/1 223/2 224/5 57/24 58/1 58/3 58/6 58/8 58/18 58/23
186/23 187/4187/11187/23188/5 forensics (1) 188/13 58/23 58/25 59/1 59/3 59/14 59/22
188/8 188/11 188/16 188/22 189/1 formal (2] 109/24 188/19 60/15 60/23 60/24 61/1161/1661/20
189/8 189/13 189/14 190/8 190/15 former (1] 151/22 62/4 63/1 64/8 64/9 64/20 66/14 66/17
197/21 234/22 235/2 forms [1) 61/24 67/5 69/20 69/22 69/24 77/25 78/4
fired (57] 45/6 70/11 103/4 183/8 forth (1] 44/21 78/16 78/21 78/24 79/3 79/6 79/9 79/10
189/22 190/12 190/20 191 /18 192/5 found (61] 1113 13/11 13/12 17/15 18/6 79/17 79/19 79/21 79/22 79/24 80/2
192/19 193/3 193/6 194/18 194/21 20/18 33/6 35/9 35/21 35/22 36/22 80/13 80/22 81 /15 81 /20 81 /24 83/8
195/3 195/5 195/5 195/9 195/20 196/7 43/14 46/3 51 /7 55/5 58/3 59/12 59/21 83/23 85/2 85/2 85/9 85/15 85/19 85/22
196/10 197/1 198/20 199/20 199/21 60/21 63/13 64/19 66/8 66/16 70/25 85/23 86/7 86/15 86120 8718 87/13
200/18 201/8 201/23 201/25 202/2 71/5 74/2183/1684/14 85/6 95/10 87/23 90/9 90/14 90/16 91/7 91/10
202/17 202/23 203/24 204/6 204/13 95/15 99/7 101/22 106/21 107/20 114/4 91/18 92/5 92/8 92/9 92/12 92/13 92/16
204/19 205/8 205/12 205/13 207 /2 114/7137/14137/20 143/14148/9 92/17 92/18 92/21 92/24 93/3 93/21
20717 208/6 208/7 208/21 209/1 209/8 148/15 151112 151 /17 152/2 152/4 94/20 95/1 95/7 95/16 96/3 96/16 96/16
209115 21014 21on 210112 210113 152/9 152/25 160/11 160/11 161 /2 97/21 98/2101/11113/6114/3114/3
211/1211/6213/21216/10217/16 161 /4 164/7 178/3 178/13 180/18 114/12 114/15 114/16 119/8 119/19
218/18 209/13 223/21 224/1 232/25 233/19 119/25 125/25 126/1 126/3 126/12
fires [9] 4117 191/3 198/23 208/16 foundation [3) 24/16 225/17 226/2 128/9 147/1 153/1 153/11 154/11
209/11 209/15 209/22 209/23 210/11 four (31) 28/17 28/18 52/14 58/9 64/25 154/11 159/23 161 /4 161 /5 162/14
firetrucks (2) 137/11 137/12 75/10 7818 78/8 89/4 109/11 109/16 163/9 166/20 178/21 179/3 179/8
firing [11] 182/16189/14190/5191/17 132/2 144/10 147/2 153110 155/19 179/14 179/15
192/6 192/8 192/11 199/3 200/16 165/5 165/9 180/8 186/14 187/11 garden [1 J 156/14
201/18 235/4 190/22 233/20 234/19 236/12 236/13 garments [1] 246/23
firings [1] 213/11 236/15 236/19 240/2 241 /16 243/3 Gary [1] 58/12
fish (1) 148/1 four-by-six [1) 153/1 O gases (1 J 192/21
fit [1 J 220/13 four-wheel [1] 144/10 gasoline [1 J 162/10
fits (1 J 112115 four-year [1] 109/16 gathered [1] 56/18
five (10] 2918 55/24 64/25 74/9 147/2 fourth [1] 147/6 gee (1) 114/4
155/19157124158/21240/2241116 FOX [4] 1/11 29/15 90/6 109/23 general [22] 5/10 6/14 23/18 29/4 29/5
five-gallon (1] 74/9 fragment [25) 63/22 63/24 65/20 65/22 35/1 58/15 90/16 90117 91/3 92/5 94/18
fix [1] 7/22 76/13 85/6 203/19 224/24 224/25 225/2 97/22 99/3105/9 120/13 120/18 137/21
FK [17] 203/12 204/2 204/3 205/3 225/7 225/12 225/19 227/2 227/8 182/7 207/16 218/4 223/9
206/21 212/18 213/16 214/3 214/7 227/25 228/14 228/25 229/19 230/12 generally [4] 123/5 135/5 192/2 193/1
215/18 215/22 216/10 216/22 217/6 231/8 236/9 237/2 237/5 243/23 generated [2] 44/2 66/4
217/10 218/2 218/17 fragments [13] 51/25 54122 62/19 120/9 gentle (2] 157/14 229/6
FL [14] 207/21207/25208/20 212/18 224/21 224/21 228/5 229/10 230/24 gentlemen [4] 130/1 219/10 240/11
213/16 214/3 214/7 215/18 215/22 231 /9 231 /12 243/8 243/17 247/14
216/12 216/13 216/13 217/4 217/10 frame [3] 153/14 154/12 156/5 gets [2) 248/18 249/3
flags [2] 154/14 156/4 FREMGEN [44] 1/20 3/5 3/9 3/20 4/11 glass [4] 45/9 6919 142/5 220/11
flashlight [1] 85/24 5/13 5/13 24/6 28/3 28/6 28/10 40/9 Glenfield [4] 102/1 111/9 197122 208/22
flashlights [1] 142/6 67/23 68n 68/8 68/14 68/16 68/17 gloved [2) 113/24 157/25
flat [2) 137/25 156/13 68/19 78122 78/25 87/15 87/19 88n gloves (1 7] 12/11 12/13 12/14 12/21
flavor (1] 92/7 88/9 100/11 108/19 108/22 108/25 13/7 34/6 34/13 35/3 35/10 37 /9 39/22
flip [1] 223/25 126/22 167/12 167/15 225/15 226/6 39/24 40/3 40/4 106/25 113/16 229/6
floor [20] 81/21 82/6 82/8 85/9 85/24 226/8 226/9 240/13 240/19 247/2 glow [3] 160/4 180/5 180/10
92118 92/18 93/22 94/13 95/1 95/5 247110 247/21 247/23 248/16 249/9 glowing [1) 162/20
95/16 96/16 145/2 164/2 179/4 179/8 Fremgen's (1 J 126/20 glows [2] 161/19 162/25
179/14 179/15 180/19 fresh [1J 26/23 goal [1] 75/13
fluoresce [1] 232/3 front [22] 19/12 43/14 48/6 48/24 51/9 goals (1] 42/5
fluorescing [1] 232/15 53/11 58/25 58/25 62/2 63/11 69/17 gone (2] 30/17 85/2
fob (3) 107/23 108/1 108/4 70/2 85/23 91 /9 99/14 138/24 142/11 gotten [2] 30/17 189/5
focus (2) 37/22 39/18 144/22 163/16 172/3 172/5 202/13 grades [1] 157/17
focused [4] 188/12 232/5 232/18 236/11 Fuentes (3] 55/17 55/19 55/22 graduate [3) 184/13 184/15 222/5
focusing [1 J 236/6 full (11) 20/22 29121 90/12 175/7 175/16 grains [2] 216/14 216/17
foil [1] 147/25 175/16 175/19 180/21 186/6 186/18 grassy (1] 172/8
follow (7] 28/20 33/16 71/22 71/24 186/22 gravel [4] 43/18 6715153/5 172/9
133/18 209/6 218/12 fully (1] 45/16 gravesite (1) 15611 O
follow-up [2] 28/20 218/12 function (3] 189/15 189/16 198/10 gravesites [1) 156/8
handling (3) 35/12 130/8 229/4 housed (1) 15/4
G hands [7] 77 /5 113/15 113124 113124 human [9] 51/22 53/22 15819 158/13
gray [3] 63/12 85116 8611 149/1 149/4 157/25 178/17 241 /24 24211 242/2 243/5
gray-colored [1] 86/1 handwritten [1) 168/7 humanly [1] 16/3
great (2] 84/9 244/21 haphazardly (1) 175/9 hundreds {11 118/2
greater [2] 97 /19 138/9 happen (1) 35/4 hvootheticallv 121 178/20 180/3
green (9] 61/1 61/6 64/11 64/12 66/21 happened (11] 14/12 34/23 52/24 5311
94/10 94/12 109/20 138/7 85/14 85/22 97/5 114/6 132/15 137/6
I
grid [1] 72/17 177/7 I'd [6] 9/5 200/5 219/5 219/8 221/11
grid-like (1) 72/17 happens [6] 48/6 192/15 192/17 193/1 225/17
gridded [1] 177/19 193/5 197/23 1'11 (6] 18/2 81/14 100/8 13018 182/17
grocery [2] 116/11 116/14 hard [9] 33/6 153/18 156/11 157/2 247/12
groove [6] 194/13 204/23 204/25 205/5 157/9 172/9 205/2 205/2 238/6 I'm (130) 6/15 6/16 9/12 10/10 14/19
205/14 208/5 hard-packed (1] 172/9 16/15 17/12 19/12 21/17 21/18 23/1
grooves [10] 193/21 193/25 194/4 194/8 hardware [1] 157/16 25/23 27/1127/1433/19 35/1 35/13
194/8 194/9 194/18 205/9 207 /3 207 /17 harm [1) 156/24 35/22 35/22 35/23 41/2 41/6 43/10
ground [13] 39/3 57/25 83/7 139/15 Hau (3) 2/3 250/4 250/19 44/16 46/6 46/22 48/3 49/25 52/4 55/12
153/10 153/15 153/16 153/19 154/14 Hawkin (1] 101/24 55/25 58/19 61/10 62/21 63/19 64/3
154/14 155/18 156/12 193/12 Hawkin-type (1] 1O1 /24 65/12 65/18 66/2 67/17 70/6 7114 76/23
growing [1) 139/6 Hawkins (6] 25/13 37/15 125/13 125/16 80/21 82/22 83/1 85/1 1 86113 89/1 89/7
Guang [2] 136/22 145/4 150/8 150/20 89/13 89/25 93/9 95/2 95/12 96/5 96/24
guesstimate [1) 112/3 head [3] 55/16 206/16 241/4 98/8 102/2 102/9 104/10 104/23 105/13
guidance (1] 90/23 headboard (6] 14/22 244/1 244/7 245/5 106/8 107/8 109/8 122/2 122/10 126/18
gun (54] 15/3 15/5 15/8 15/11 16/1 O 246112 246118 127/1 131 /4 133/5 133/5 133/5 138/15
16/10 16/13 16/19 17/3 36/14 101/23 hearing [1] 249/3 141/7 146/21 168/4 170/16 182/3
103/24 128/24 182/16 189/20 189/22 hearsay (3) 24/14 126/5 248/21 182/16 183/13 188/8 189/10 189/13
189/25 190/1 190/2 190/17 191/13 heat [1] 161/20 189/14 19018 194/10 194/12 195/2
191/17 192/3 192/9 193/4 193/6 194/21 heavily (1) 229/1 195/4 195/7 195/8 195/10 195/21 19612
194/24 195/3 195/6 195/7 195/21 196/8 height [1] 5316 196/3 196/14 197/15 198/18 201/18
196/10 198/11 198/15 198/20 199/16 HEIMERL (14) 3/7 40/15 40/17 40/22 205/20 20813 209/12 210/15 211121
200/13 200125 204/5 204/14 204/14 40/25 42/10 44/1 45/15 50/11 56/8 213/9 214/6 214/14 216/1216/1322012
204/18 20517 205/14 207/3 20714 20716 62/16 6413 67120 68120 221 /13 223/1 223/2 224111 225/8 226/4
208/7 210/5 210/7 217/4 218/18 held (1] 29/17 230/1 230/7 230/13 231 /20 232/11
gun's [2] 192/1 192/24 Hello [1) 126/25 233/9 234/14 238/17 241 /25 242/4
gunpowder [7] 182/18 190/9 191/2 helpful [1] 208/10 245/21 248/2
191/3 191/11 191/15 192/22 Hence [1] 231/14 I've [1 7] 6/11 7211 o 88/5 89/4 9114
guns [10] 16/12 36/13 36/14 36/15 Here's [1] 67/5 91/24 127/20 161122 168/11 168/11
182/17 204/13 210/7 235/3 23513 235/4 hereby [1] 250/6 187/25 187/25 189/4 199110 205/11
guy [1 ] 144/15 herein (6] 5/22 40/1 8 88/17 130/14 207/9 220/17
lauvs r11 77 /17 181 /19 219/19 idea [7J 24/138/2371/21 74/24171/7
herself (2] 99/25 100/2 175/23 176/1
H hidden [1) 138/13 ideal (1] 144/1
H-e-i-m-e-r-1(1] 40/22 high [4] 235/13 235/25 238/2 238/8 Ideally [1] 169/13
hadn't[3] 148/15160/11171/2 high-speed [4] 235/13 235/25 238/2 identical [1] 48/15
hair [1] 123/16 238/8 identification [18] 27/12 49/21 63/8 64/4
Halbach [11) 14/12 28/5 41/14 52/2 highest [1 J 84/20 82/12 102/20 154/4 185/4 185/14
87 /23 89111 105/19 126/3 126/12 128/8 highly (1 J 160/5 187 /23 188/5 188117 188/23 18918
135/12 Historical [1] 226/14 194/19 199/7 212/15 220/12
Halbach's [2] 25/9 26/16 history [1] 185/4 identifications [1] 45/2
half[14] 63/2 141/6 148/21 148/22 hoist [1] 81/1 identified [19] 48/1 O 55116 56/4 59/7
157/18 157123 162/19 167/1 167/3 hold (9) 143/3 170/18 201/1 201/3 5919 63/22 66/20 67114 69/12 82/1 8212
167123 167/24 180/19185/10 202/6 202/18 202/25 209/3 239/17 239/21 82/9 82/11 84/14 100/2 232123 237 /23
half-inch [1] 157/18 holding (2] 65118 108/6 239/12 246/21
hallway [4) 919 9/21 33/21 104/16 holds [2] 111/10 111 /16 identifies [3] 50/6 64/18 65119
hallways [1] 33/8 hole [4] 70/13 225/4 225/4 233/14 identify (10] 27/15 47/13 47/24 65/13
hand [22) 5/20 10/10 11 /12 20/12 22/25 holes [2] 70/5 70115 72/17 83/25 99/24 148/14 154/6 212/13
40/16 46/23 65114 88/15 130/12 158/1 3 Holmes [2] 52/22 227/12 ides [1] 50/6
162/25 174/23 181 /17 183/14 202/18 homicide [3] 131/9 134/23 183/1 ilk [1] 222/6
205/7 207 /4 219/17 230/19 230/25 HON [1] 1/11 Illinois [1] 133/24
236/7 Honor [4] 127/25 129/1 211/11 247/4 Im [1) 54/18
handcuffs [10] 17/10 17/15 17/18 17/23 hood (31) 25/20 25/21 25/22 26/1 26/4 image [3] 66/5 230/11 230/23
18/5 18/7 18/12 18/13 35/22 36/10 26/5 26/12 26/13 26/16 27/8 27/21 28/4 images [1] 44/2
handed [4] 10/14 63/15 96/20 96/24 38114 39/2 39/5 39/5 39/12 39/19 39125 imagine (2) 35/23 201 /12
handfuls [2] 149/4 173123 40/2 40/4 40/7 138/14 138/18 138/23 immediate [3J 6/16 42/22 42/24
handgun (1] 193/9 142/10 143/5 144/16 144/18 170/15 immediately [3] 40/7 140/22 184/24
handguns [1) 193/14 171/2 impacts [1] 235/23
handing (1) 154/5 hope [1) 170/5 implementation [1) 54/18
handle {5] 112/21 113/1 116/21 158/2 hopefully [2] 169/15 241 /12 implemented [1] 52/12
222/21 horseshoe [1 J 78/17 importantly [1] 209/20
hand led (9] 12/19 34/7 112/9 113/14 hour-and-a-half [1] 141/6 impression (1) 92/5
113/18116/22 117/11118/22 229/6 hours [6) 41 /23 56/15 57 /8 84/9 141 /7 impressions (1 OJ 172/24 172/25 173/1
handler (1] 31/10 158/21 173/8 194/13 204/23 204/25 205/5
handles (2) 25/19 39/25 house [21 29111 101/7 205/15 208/5
31/4 41 /3 41/13 41 /17 41/21 41/25 42/6 James (1) 227/12
I 42/15 43/3 45/20 46/13 50/13 51 /2 Janda (8] 98/3 98/15 98/25 99/5 99/8
inaccessible (1] 177/25 56/18 61/2172/872/14 73/16 119/16 99/19 101/7 127/17
inaudible [1] 87/25 123/24 124/18 135/11 182/9 182/11 Janda's [1] 98/19
inch [11] 157/18157/18157/19157/20 182/22 183/2 197/2 221 /4 227113 January [4] 131/1185/12186/9187/3
162/19 162/19 166/25 166/25 16711 Investigation's [1] 47/2 jar [1 J 76/25
167/2 167/3 investigations [4] 41/9 72/2 155/12 Jennifer [3] 2/3 250/4 250/19
inch-and-a-half[3] 162/19 167/1 167/3 189/11 jeopardize [2] 136/8 136/9
inch-ish [1] 166/25 investigative [2] 89/1 O 224/13 Jeremy [2] 25/13 150/8
inches [3] 156/13 204/16 225/3 investigator [26] 8/18 21 /9 22/4 24/25 JEROME [1] 1/11
inclement [1] 30/11 25/17 32/5 33/22 3 7/3 42/3 52/20 54/20 jiggles [1J 158/5
includes [1] 53/16 58/11 58/12 75/9 7714 101 /3 104/1 Jim [1] 8/18
including [5] 76/16 117/7 235/25 242/23 104/18118/9183/14 196/15197/15 job [6] 37/13 133/18 134/19 177/14
247/20 203/9 210/15 221 /14 225/9 222/10 222/17
incoming [1] 30/16 investigator's [1) 77/15 JOHN [6] 3/18 58/11 94/2 130/10
indeed (1] 233/14 investigators [13] 42/3 43/2 51/2 51/20 130/13 130/18
indentation [ 1] 70/23 56/20 56/24 5717 57/9 58/10 85/21 joined [1] 78/9
indi (1] 161/8 121/5 183/6 224/10 jotting [1] 168/11
indicate [6] 71/25 111 /25 160/13 178/5 involvement [6] 38/10 73/11 73/15 Joy [1] 107/4
179/23 239/8 89/14 110/9 168/15 jug [ 1J 59120
indicates [1] 184/2 Involves [2] 47/7 189/9 jugs [1] 82/3
indicating [1] 227/16 inward [1] 228/22 jump [1) 46/22
indication [4] 92/2 163/6 172/19 228/7 iron [5] 18/12 18/20 161/19 161123 jumping [1] 20/1
indications [1] 227/15 162/5 junk [3] 92/1 O 92/14 92/17
individually [2] 112/9 112/17 iron-type (1] 161 /23 junked [2) 19/7 137/25
individuals [6] 22/14 33/13 42/22 52119 irons [9] 17/11 17/24 18/118/418/5 junkyard [3] 8/6 15/25 144/1
78/8 174/3 18/8 18/20 35/24 36/10 jurors [3] 60/3 99/16 247/18
indulgence [1] 126/17 irregular [1] 165/13 jury (59] 1/4 6/4 6/13 7/3 7/18 8/4 11/1
inform [1 ] 169/5 irrelevant [5] 118/20 129/4 129/6 129/10 11 /16 14/21 14/25 15/23 16/20 17/18
informed [6] 22/6 56/17 59/13 82/7 129/12 18/10 18/18 20/13 21 /15 23/19 25/11
83/24 224/10 ish[1] 166/25 26/3 26/3 26/18 27/7 41 /1 41/16 43/12
initial [8] 32/7 42/8 42/12 42/15 51/1 issue [2] 211/21 247/20 46/7 47/19 48/8 49/2 50/24 55/4 55/14
72124 136/25 149/18 It'd [1 J 18/4 56/2 56/13 5 7/1 60/3 62/22 62/24 63/5
initially [5] 30/9 51/12 57/16 139/21 item (81] 11 /3 12/14 13/2 13/5 18/10 65/22 66/7 66/11 91 /6 91 /14 92/7 95/13
192/20 34/9 35/8 35/9 45/11 54/21 59/15 59/24 96/2 96/12 101 /19 102/11 104/24
initials [1] 227/18 61/20 62/8 63/18 75/2 75/20 77/1 79/19 107/18 216/17 247/12 248/14 248/19
injury [3] 22/22 22/23 23/14 83/18 84/4 84/7 84/13 84/15 86/15 248/24 249/5
inner [7] 228/22 230/13 238/17 238/19 104/19 114/11 118/3 128/1 135/1 178/1 jury's [2] 94/14 107/13
238/20 243/19 243/20 196/19 197/4 203/12 204/2 204/3 205/3 justice [5] 41 /3 41 /5 183/22 184/22
inquiry [1] 24/3 206/21 207/1 207/21207/22207/25 185/5
inside [33] 23/24 26/8 36/3 44/21 45/9 208/19 218/2 226/25 227/1 227/23
46/4 58/3 91 /7 96/16 101/22 103/13 227 /24 228/1 228/2 228/4 228/8 228/10
K
103/23 105/16 142/6 142/7 142/16 228/12 228/17 229/9 229/15 229/17 K-9 (2) 31/10 31/11
144/14 168/23 170/5 191/4 194/1 194/3 229/19 229/19 229/22 230/3 230/1 1 K-9s [1] 31 /9
194/15 195/14 203118 225n 231 /3 231 /5 233/23 235/8 235/11 236/3 K-u-c-h-a-r-s-k-i [1] 88/22
235/24 238/7 238/11 238/14 238/25 236/11 236/19 236/24 236/24 237/2 Kansas [5] 183/24 184/4 187/6 187/10
239/5 23 7/4 237/9 238/10 239/15 239/20 187/11
instance [11] 34/5 72/5 86/6 142/1 239/23 244/14 244/16 keep [3] 159/11 169/15 175/7
177119 178/20 179/2 179/3 179/9 Item 137 [1] 231/5 keeping [2] 12/4 177/17
194/20 220/20 items (97] 12/11 17/7 17/7 20/9 34/6 Ken [1] 5/8
institution [2] 133/12 221 /25 34/9 34/18 45/8 46/14 48/9 50/15 50/22 KENNETH [5] 1/14 4/9 219/13 219/18
instructed [6] 8/23 39/17 117/21 123/17 51/21 52/1 53/18 53/22 53/24 53/24 219/23
124/6 124/11 54/25 55/2 55/5 55/7 59/4 59/11 59/13 KEVIN [4] 3/7 40/15 40/17 40/22
instructions [2] 128/13 128115 61/8 61/13 61/23 62/20 72/18 73/20 key [17] 106/14 106/15 106/20 106/22
instruments [3] 53/13 77/9 222120 74/2174/2476/2181/481/9 81/15 106/25 107/2 107/6107/10 107/20
integrity [1 J 123/21 81 /16 82/3 82/21 83/2 84/6 84/11 86/10 107/22 107/23 108/1 108/2 108/3 108/4
intent [3] 168/24 169/2 169/25 86/12 86/14 86/15 86/19 90/1 7 94/15 108/23 108/24
interact [1] 131 /16 105/12 105/25 118/1 118/2 118/6 keypad [1] 49/17
interest [2] 83/19 245/19 120/23 123/3 125/5 125/8 125/9 139/17 kinds [5] 12/9 186/20 193/14 206/14
interested (8) 27/5 76/14 227/7 228/20 143/3 143/15 147/24 158/15 170/7 210/2
232/4 233/11 233/13 245/21 170/17170/18 171/4174/23 176/2 kitchen [2] 9/8 9/19
interesting [1] 229/21 177/17 180/14 180/23 180/24 181/4 knife [1] 77/8
interior [12] 25/19 32/20 39/12 44/14 182/25 185/18 204/3 221 /3 221 /5 knives [1] 53/14
44/19 44/22 57/23 58/6 58/7 58/22 59/3 223/16 223/1 8 223/20 223/22 226/10 knocked [1] 79/18
81/25 226/12 226/15 226/20 227/10 227/17 knowing [1 J 15/20
international (2) 188/10 223/4 227122 228/2 229/14 229/15 240/23 known [4] 7/1517/22 89/16 131119
interrupted (1 J 147/12 242/9 KQ [9] 229/15 229/17 229/19 230/3
interview [1] 42/9 236/3 236/24 237/2 239/21 239/23
interviewing [1) 42/25 J KR [1] 229/15
intro[1] 167/7 J-o-h-n (1] 130/19 KRATZ [65] 1/14 3/4 3/8 3/10 3/12 3/14
inventoried [1] 151 /2 J. [1] 88/21 3/16 5/3 5/5 5/6 5/8 5/18 6/3 7120 8/1
investigate (3] 41/7 75/24 225/8 J. Kucharski [1) 88/21 8/2 18/25 19/1 24/10 24/17 24/18 27/22
investigation [32] 24/19 24/20 29/25 Jack (5] 60/20 64/11 82/1 91/22 92/2 40/1 1 40/14 40/24 67/17 68/11 87/18
law (17] 1/20 1/22 11/18 14/10 15/21 loader [4) 112/20 112/23 112/25 113/1
K 17/6 24/24 44/24 51/18 54/14 87/19 loading (1] 11 2/14
KRATZ ... (37) 88/5 88/12 88/24 96/23 87/22 93/2 131/6166/8 187/22 235/20 loads [1] 199/23
96/24100/3100/15 100/22101/1101/3 lawnmower [5] 94/1 94/2 94/5 165/3 loaned [1] 153/4
103/25 104/2 104/20 104/23 108/10 180/7 locally [1] 29/22
108/21 108/23 110/3 110/22 118/19 lay [2] 24/15 60/1 o locate [2] 17/6 60/14
125/20 125/22 126/9 126/17 127/12 layer [6] 53/15 53/19 174/25 175n located [29] 8/7 8/9 11 /4 12/6 12/6 14/8
127/15 127/20 128/1128/17128/19 176/5 176/5 16/12 16/19 17/10 17/23 43/17 44/5
129/6 129/9 129/13 129/16 129/20 layers [1] 175/2 62/24 62/25 65/2 74/25 81/4 95/10
129/23 130/6 layout [2] 9/4 9/17 106/6 107/10 115/3 115/5 115/9 135/25
Kratz's (1J 11112 lead [42] 10/8 14117 85/17 86/3 118/9 137/22 142/9 144/23 151/9 178/1
Kuchar (1 ] 100/20 161 /22 179/24 180/3 205/25 233/3 locating [1] 36/5
KUCHARSKI [16) 3/1188/1388/16 233/5 233/12 233/15 233/20 233/21 location (1 3] 17/18 30/13 36/3 52/15
88/21 88/25 89/9 95/25 97/21 100/20 233/24 234/8 234/14 235/9 235/16 59/11 60/21 66/19 66/20 69/17 72/18
101/3101/4 101/12 102/9 103/9104/2 236/19 236/20 236/23 237/1 237/10 114/15137/20151/16
127/16 237/14 237/16 237/19 237/23 237/25 locations [5] 42/24 51/3 124/17 150/12
238/24 239/1 239/9 239/11 239/16 233/17
L 239/23 241 /23 242/2 242/6 242/12 locked [4] 57/19 142/4 142/15 144/11
1-a-n-d-s (1] 194/10 242/16 243/2 Locks [1] 26/5
lab (56) 37/20 38/18 38/21 38/23 46/1 1 leader (1] 136/24 Logical (1 ) 175/11
46/12 46/15 52/8 72/20 73/12 73/13 leading [3] 129/2 129/3 129/11 logo [1] 11/13
73/21 73/23 73/24 7416 7513 75/21 76/3 leads [1] 224/14 long [23) 6/9 15/5 16/5 16/11 29/15
76/16 82/8 83/25 84/21 84/22 87/4 87/6 leaned [2] 139/1 139/5 29/17 44/3 82/14 89/2 95/11 106/3
87/9107/5 125/7 125/8 131/5 132/13 leaning [3) 138/14 138/17 139/9 106/7 130/24 132/17 134/14 140/12
134/15 143/7 145/24 146/19 151/23 learn (1] 123/22 158/17 188/21 201 /22 202/6 213/2
169/4171/5171/9171/9177/12178/8 learning [1] 222/15 22014 220/15
178/14 186/1 1 186/13 203/12 208/20 leave [6] 60/25 62/21 114/16 136/16 longer (1 J 13/5
212/5 215/9 220/8 220/21 222/12 136/19 160/19 looks (7] 39/1 86/2 94/2 108/9 155/7
226/16 234/23 235/10 239/20 leaves (1] 139/11 206/12 23114
labeled (1 0] 60120 74/11 74/14 74/16 leaving [3] 23/25 175/13 195/17 losing [1] 170/4
213/16 227/4 227/5 227/6 228/3 228/5 left-hand [4] 11 /12 230/19 230/25 236/7 lot (1 5] 16/2 25/15 11 0/1 1 147/23
labeling [1] 227/19 leg [9] 17/11 17/24 18/1 18/4 18/5 18/8 147/24 14814 153/13 161/4 164/24
Laboratories (1) 133/23 18/20 35/24 36/10 164/25 174115 179/16 180/1 4 189/2
laboratory (41) 47/2 54/16 65/8 73/9 length [1] 213/4 212/22
130/23 130/25 133/22 134/1 134/12 Lenk [7] 8/18 14/6 33/18 33/22 33/24 lower [4] 8/6 11/11 39/7 3918
134/13 134/17135/17 135/19 140/21 89/22 105/23 lowered [1] 98/12
144/3 182/4 183/3 184/22 184/25 185/3 Leslie [2] 54/4 226/12 luminesced (1] 82/10
185/8 185/21 186/2 186/4 186/8 186/21 less [1] 236/23 luminescence [1] 165/20
187/2 187/10 187/12 189/15 190/6 level [1] 177/21 luminol [27] 82/10 84/1 84/24 159/20
195/5 198/24 201 /25 202/5 220/3 22019 license (10] 138/11142/2151/9151116 160/1 160/2 160/18 160/19 160/22
220/18 222/13 222/17 224/16 176/16 176/17 176/19 176/22 177/6 161/4 161/9 161/11 161/14 162/6
laboratory's [1] 224/10 177/8 162/15 162/20 164/18 165/7 165/25
laceration (1) 22/25 Lieutenant [6] 33/18 33/24 89/22 105/23 166/20 178/16 178/22 179/13 179/18
lacks [1] 207/15 121/4 121/4 180/4 180/12 180/17
ladies [2] 129/25 24 7/14 lift [4] 117/2 245/8 245/10 245/10 luminol's [4] 160/3 161/18 161/19
laid [2] 46/19 137/12 lifted [1] 144/20 161/20
Lakeshore (1) 29/20 lifting (2) 118/18 119/22 luminolled [3) 160/21161/1 161/3
lamp [1] 142/1 1 light [4] 86/1 117/21 118/8 165/7 luminolling [1] 160/14
land [7] 19/7 194/13 204/22 204124 lightening [1) 14018 lunch (3] 108/12 126/20 129/16
205/5 205/14 208/5 lighting [2] 53/9 144/4 lvina 111 36/2
landmarks [1] 93/15 lights [1] 16415
lands [5] 193/21 194/9 194/18 207/3 likewise [3] 232/15 236/22 237/3
M
207/16 limit[1] 242/13 Mach [1] 91/16
lanyard [1] 107/24 limited [2) 206/24 243/7 machine [3] 99/8 99/18 250110
large [21] 11111 16/2 27/6 51/2 51/4 line [1] 215/13 machinery [1] 92/10
64/14 74/2 74/3 80/23 91/11 91/25 lined [1) 13815 Madison [20] 52/8 52/14 52/24 54/16
93/10 9416 99/16 104/11 144/8 144/25 linkage [1] 144/17 130/23 130125 134/17 134/17 136/16
166/23 231/25 23211 241/25 lint [1] 245/10 136/19 140/20 141/21143/7 144/7
larger [8) 135/6 149/9 154/22 156/20 listen [1] 99/21 145/5 145122 145/24 182/4 187/18
160/6 163/20 165/24 174/23 listened [1) 100/1 220/3
laser [7) 9/15 44/6 52/10 66/1 O 93/14 literature [2] 188/16 223/9 magazine [15] 10/2511/10 11/13 13/15
163/15 231/23 little [33) 6/8 9/16 1211 a 15/23 2011 aon 103/1 103/2 103/12 103/13 103/15
lasted [1) 19/2 83/13 83/14 89/25 90/23 91 /24 95/5 111 /14 112/1 113/3 127/1 200/20 201 /2
latch [21 J 25/20 25/22 26/1 26/4 26/12 101/2 110/9 123/22127/5131/12 133/2 magically [11 173/2
26/13 26/16 27/8 27/21 28/5 38/14 138/4 148/3 153/25 165/8 172/20 magnesium (1] 242/24
38/25 39/6 39/7 39/9 39/10 39/19 40/1 182/13 183/12 211/20 211/24 219/9 magnification [1] 244/22
4012 40/4 40/7 221/12 229/17 229/23 245/19 247/8 main [6] 9/6 69/24 79n 150/7 220/9
late [2] 57/8 141/14 living [9) 9/7 9/8 9/20 10/12 10/17 10/20 233/8
later (17] 23/18 37/14 45/21 54/12 57/4 11/6 13/14 104/16 mainly [1] 237/19
57/4 74/19 100/25 101/2 107/6 127/5 load [8] 111 /17 112/7 112/20 112/24 mainstream (1] 193/20
141/12 157/6 165/20 169/8196/25 141/3 190117 191/20 199/23 maintain [3] 8/8 188115 223/8
199/7 loaded [5] 98/4 103/3 141 /9 145/7 maintenance [1) 102/19
laundry [2] 19/24 20/16 199/10 major [2] 34/12 222/2
medical [4 J 22/5 22/12 22/15 23/10 mostly [1) 147/23
M meet (1) 249/10 Mot[1 ] 148/11
majority [5] 29/2 29/5 42/17 74/1 74/8 meetings (1] 189/1 motion [1] 240/9
makeup [1) 132/9 member [14] 26/3 119/7 119/18 132/17 motions {1) 240/12
maneuver [1] 144/24 132/21 134/20 188/2 188/8 220/19 motor [2] 44/11 60/11
MANITOWOC [8] 1/1 8/16 41/21 42/9 220/22 220/24 223/1 223/3 223/4 Motorola (13] 45/13 47/25 48/7 48/16
58/14 135/20 135/25 250/2 members (3) 10/19 22/7 26/3 48/25 49/9 49/18 67/9 69/12 69/14
manner [1) 191121 memorialize [1] 32/14 148/11 223/23 223/23
manually [1) 193117 memory (1] 116/6 mounted [4] 191/1 192/17 192/20
manufacture [21 111/15 194/4 mention [2] 110/23 208/8 228/17
manufactured [4] 197/21201/22205/12 mentioned [14) 18/1 76/7 77/23 83/3 Mr [71 7/20 56/7 67/14 118/20 214/11
207/3 84/21 142/1 162/4 187/5 225/24 227/14 219/11 247/21
manufacturer [3) 198113 212/13 212/15 230/6 230/14 233/6 238/5 Mr. [72) 5/5 6/4 9/17 10/13 10/20 14/25
manufacturers {2] 212/22 217/1 mesh [6) 157/18157/18157/19157/20 16/11 17/418/618/15 18/23 18/25 19/1
manufacturing {2) 194/23 246/25 157/22 157/22 20/12 21 /4 21/7 22/18 24/5 24/11 24/20
March [26] 19/21 20/2 21 /4 25/6 56/8 message [9] 99/7 99/11 99/24 100/1 24/21 24/23 27/11 40/25 4 7/1 4 7/13
56/15 57/3 61/12 61/18 62/15 64/6 100/5 100/6 100/14 126/24 127/16 47/19 47/21 48/1149/2350/20 55/25
65/20 77/24 77125 78/1 78/8 78/9 79/4 messages [1) 99/22 5715 59/25 60/15 62/17 63/15 65/14
82/20 82/20 84/9 85/3 85/14 87/20 messy [1 J 92/8 6817 68/16 87/19 88/2 88/25 91/18
87/21 134/6 met [1] 42/2 98/16 100/20 101 /21 104/3 108/6 108/8
March 1 (14) 19/2120/2 25/6 56/B 56/15 metal (13) 45/8 53/24 55/1 55/5 69/8 110/3 110/22 111 /2 118/25 125/23
61/18 77/25 78/1 78/8 82/20 84/9 85/3 7617 158/2 192/13 206/12 228/16 126/20 128/1 129/16 130/6 135/9
85/14 87/21 229/25 233/16 237/18 136/22 145/18 149/22 167/16 182/24
March 2 [5] 62/15 64/6 65/20 7819 82120 metal-shaped (1] 158/2 21 1/18 213/9 218/16 219/14 239/14
MARK (3) 1/20 5/13 137/14 metallic [1] 228/16 247/10 247/21
marked (38] 4/14 14/20 17/12 18/9 23/1 metallurgy [4] 212/5 212/7 212/9 214/8 Mr. Avery [3) 21/7 22/18 24/20
2 7/12 44/16 46/23 48/20 56/1 59/17 metals [1) 220/11 Mr. Avery's [16] 9/1710/13 10/20 14/25
60/17 63/4 63/16 64/4 68/25 81 /5 81 /17 method [1] 246/15 16/11 18/6 18/15 18/23 48/11 49/23
82/25 91 /5 95/12 96/25 98/9 100/8 methodical [1] 78/3 50/20 60/15 91/18 101/21 104/3 108/8
102/8 102/10 104/24 106/17 127/13 methodically (1] 33/14 Mr. Brendan [1] 24/23
154/2 154/4 165/19 166/3 195/7 196/16 methodology [2] 11 /17 170/10 Mr. Cates [1] 149/22
196/24 199/6 248/3 microscope [8] 195/8 206/9 209/13 Mr. Curtis [1) 47/1
marker (11) 63/3 63/8 63/1 O 63/11 209/2 1 228/14 228/18 232/5 245/18 Mr. Dassey [6] 24/5 24/1 1 24/21 57/5
64/18 64/23 66/14 66/16 84/4 84/5 microscopic [8] 195/13 206/4 207/8 62/17 88/2
84/17 208/13 213/12 237/21 244/12 244/19 Mr. Dassey's (3] 21 /4 59/25 98/16
markers [6) 59/10 59/11 81 /19 82/15 microscopically (2] 204/4 224/13 Mr. Edelstein [2] 118/25 125/23
82/16 84/2 middle [6] 13/24 22/24 60/23 80/16 Mr. Ertl (2] 135/9 167/16
market(1] 112/15 144/1 175/8 Mr. Fremgen [5] 68/7 68/16 87/19
marking [2] 80/8 83/1 3 Midwest [1] 223/2 247/10 247/21
markings (7] 185/17 195/22 207/8 Mike [1] 29/17 Mr. Fremgen's [1] 126/20
209/19 209/25 227/16 227/18 Milwaukee [3] 29/18 134/2 134/5 Mr. Guang [1] 136/22
marks [1] 172/8 mind [2] 71121 86/1 Mr. Heimerl [1] 40/25
Marlin (5) 111 /13 197/21 208/22 209/1 minimize [1] 30/6 Mr. Kratz [6] 5/5 110/3 11 0/22 128/1
210113 minimum 111 131/25 129/16 130/6
mason's [2] 149/5 158/1 minor [1] 142/8 Mr. Kratz's (1] 111/2
master [1] 13/19 minute [3) 12/5 46/22 68/2 Mr. Kuchar (1] 100/20
Master's [4] 133/6 133/10 133/13 222/7 minutes [3] 218/24 218/25 249/11 Mr. Kucharski [1] 88/25
matches (1) 37/21 miscellaneous (2] 55/7 61/8 Mr. Newhouse (4] 182/24 211/18 213/9
Mateo [1 J 185/20 missed [3) 85/12 87/20 161/3 218/16
material [35) 26/15 27/13 45/5 51 /3 missing [6) 105/19 134/23 135/11 Mr. Olson [2] 219/14 239/14
51/12 51 /15 51117 53/23 63/19 71 /2 135/23 135/24 203/20 Mr. Thomas [2) 47/13 47/21
72/23 72/23 73/7 74/1 7412 74/18 75/7 Missouri [2] 187/6 187/11 Mr. Thomas' [1] 47/19
75/8 75/18 149/6 149/7 155/22 156/9 mist [1] 30/20 Mr. Tyson [3] 6/4 1714 19/1
156/13 156/19157/19158/5159/3 mister [1] 133/5 Mr. W iegert (5) 18/25 27/1 1 55/25 63/15
159/8 163/6 223/24 224/5 231 /24 misunderstood [2] 72/21 111 /2 108/6
232/15 246/10 mixes [ 1I 176/8 Mr. W iegert's [2] 20/12 65/14
materials [14] 51123 55/11 64/16 143/10 model (9] 32/1 32/4 32/8 48116 49/1 Mr. Zhang [1] 145/18
147/24 151/2 155/17 155/25 156/21 102/1 103/13 197/21 197/22 Ms [1) 128/8
157/3158/25 220/11 223/21 227/16 modern [2) 191 /8 193/24 much [8) 14/7 37/22 6016 132/10 141/5
matter[11) 74/15110/10110/18154/3 modified [2] 111117 112/1 143/20 148/8 175/3
210/8 213/19 217/11224/19229/4 molecular [2] 133/6 133/22 multiple [1) 62/6
250/7 250/13 molecule [1] 161120 multitude (1) 212/23
May 10 [1] 21 1/3 moment [10) 7120 12/18 21/2 27/23 muzzle [1] 190/11
mean (16] 81/16 84/3 86/4 143/21 6612 88/9 152/20 153/7 165/23 200/18 muzzleloader [2) 17/2 101 /25
157/10175/5175/12 176/18179/2 moments [1) 161 /8 myself [8] 37/15 46/1 51/20 52/20 58/11
205/18 213/2 213/19 213/20 215/11 Monday [4] 43/5 146/17 146/18 147/1 O 90/15 105/23 118/1
233/5 238/14 monitor [2) 33/11 37/1
meant (3) 35/13 35/13 66/18 Montana [4] 184/3 186/8 187/2 188/19
N
measure [1] 84/18 month [1 J 185/1 o N-e-w-h-o-u-s-e [1) 181/24
measurement [1] 23/6 months [3] 175/22 235/1 240/22 nail [2] 206/17 246/14
measurements [1) 114/18 morning [12] 5/2 5/3 40/25 41122 56/15 naked [1] 179/5
measures [1) 30/14 68/1 109/6 109/7 146/1 146/20 146/25 name [1 6) 5/25 5/2540/2140/21 54/3
media [2] 193/20 219/5 147/5 55117 60/20 88/20 88/20 130/17 130/17
November 5 [5] 41/11 41/12 135/10 one [153] 7/20 11/413/1214/516/3
N 168/14 168/15 16/18 22/14 29/21 31 /24 32/7 33/14
name ... [5] 130/18 181/22 181/22 November 8 [4] 146/22 146/24 159/19 34/13 35/2137/337/5 37/7 39/20 40/5
219/21 219/22 173/13 45/11 48/2 48/5 48/22 50/3 51 /9 51 /21
names [2] 137/10166/13 number [20) 28/4 32/1 32/1 32/4 32/4 56/4 5 7/11 59/13 72/12 75/20 77 /10
nature [6] 6/24 7110 12/7 34/15 34/16 38/9 51/21 64/25 64/25 84/20 104/20 77/11 78/3 78/9 78/16 82/24 86/9 88/9
225/14 154/7 182/25 198/1 198/12 200/25 92/22 93/19 95115 95/19 95/20 96/22
near (4] 13/14 30/10 64/20 234/11 213/24 214/17 214/18 225/10 96/23 99/9 99/21 100/16 101 /23 103/4
nearby [3] 138/2 138/3 151 /13 numbered [2] 59/11 80/7 103/7 105/16 108/19 108/19 108/21
necessarily [3] 128/1 169/25 225/16 numbers [2] 32/9 84/19 108/21 108/22 108/22 110/18 111 /6
necessary [2] 157/13 176/13 numerous f31 20/9 55/5 61/8 112/21 11 3/11 114/5 114/7 115/9
need [5] 52/1 O 70/19 86/2 86/23 93/4 116/11 116/16 117/18 118/3 125/20
needed [8] 23/23 93/4 140/25 144/8 0 128/17 131/15131/17138/24139/3
167/21 169/11 220/25 224/14 o'clock [2) 127/4 149/14 139/3 144/19 148/3 150/22 150/24
needs [1 J 220/12 0-1-s-o-n [1] 219/23 151 /2 154/1 154/13 154/18 154/24
neighborhood [4] 42/18 42/19 42/20 object [18] 49/19 61 /1 61 /6 6215 62/10 155/16156/6157/21161/16 163/9
73/3 63/12 65/2 65/18 66/18 81/1 85/16 86/1 163/21 164/8 165/1 165/23 166/22
neutral [ 1) 144/12 87/1 123/21 123/23 126/4 129/2 158/2 167/7 170/12 171/20 173/16 173/18
never [6) 112/5 125/8 140/11 161 /23 objection [11] 24/6 28/2 28/6 67/22 174/10 175/6175/18175/19 183/19
17617 194111 68/12 100/10 118/19 167/10 225116 185/2 187111 190/1 190/2 190122
new [9] 12/14 13/8 48/15 56/25 82/23 240/11 248/7 190/25 191 /21 195/5 195/6 199/7
83/18312106/25 107/2 objections [4] 108/17 247/22 247124 201/17 204120 20617 214/7 214/17
newer [1] 138/1 O 247/25 216/12 216/13 217/24 218/16 224/12
newest [1] 139/4 objectives [1 J 58/17 227/3 227/5 227/6 227/8 227/23 227/25
NEWHOUSE (9) 4/3 181/1 6 181/18 objects [5] 45/8 45/9 62/6 76/7 91/11 230/1 230/16 230/16 230/24 231 /7
181/23 182/24 211/18 213/9 214/11 obliterated [2] 205/1 207/11 231/18 231/19 231/25 232/12 232/13
218/16 obscured [1] 169/2 232/16 236/12 236/16 239/15 240/2
night[9] 14/915/16 31/24 35/12146/17 observation [5] 69/7 139/21 165/17 241 /15 243/16 243/19 245/7 245/7
146/18 146/19 166/12 247/17 165/24 16611 246/19 247/22
nightstand (2] 17/21 17/22 observations [4] 23/13 43/1 45/14 71 /12 one's [1] 154/18
nine [4] 202/6 230/17 230/18 231/19 observe [3] 99/6 113/19 244/13 one-quarter [1] 175/18
Nineteen [2} 28/17 28/18 observed [7] 15/1 45/11 93/16 139/9 one-third (1 ] 175/19
ninety [2] 28/17 28/18 185/18 235/11 244/16 ones [7) 81/17 81/19137/15152/6
ninety-four [2] 28/17 28/18 obstructed [1] 139/17 166/16 170/19 207/16
nobody [4] 30/10 30/10 33/25 116/22 obstruction (1 J 199/11 ongoing (1] 56/18
non [6] 45/7 49/4 49/4 53/17 53/18 obtain [21 25/8 198/22 Oops (1] 219/4
53/24 obtained [3] 42/5 133/20 201/24 open [15] 27/14 44/20 58/24 63/20
non-burned [2] 49/4 53/17 obtain ing [2] 38/13 123/15 80/23 81 /2 94/23 114/8 115/22 116/1
non-combustible [2) 4517 53/18 obvious [8] 10/7 13/10 1717 33/20 116/3 116/5 144/18 165/16 168/23
non-cumbustible [1 J 53/24 111 /25 152/11 160/7 211 /22 opened [7] 38/17 40/2 40/4 58/2 79/6
non-damaged [1) 49/4 obviously [9] 33/11 44/20 58/23 64/17 152/5 196/22
none (6) 67/24 181/9 210/14 214/14 93/23 94/20 171 /16 197/10 244/23 opening [1) 69/23
214/14 216/7 occasion [16] 22/17 44/12 50/13 52/24 operating [1] 219/7
nonetheless [1) 205/3 72/12 74/7 74/9 83/22 95/8 99/6 99120 opinion [9] 12417124/9 187123 202/21
noon [1] 135/15 101/12 104/4 106/2 106/13 131/24 202/25 209/3 239/14 239/17 239/21
Norm (1] 5/11 Occasionally (1 J 199/12 opportunities [1] 243/7
normal [2] 228/14 243/5 occur [3] 12/8 12/21 140/22 opportun ity [8] 15/17 93/3 132/21
normally [1) 241123 occurred [7] 13/22 2916 4516 49/22 141122 142/19 188/20 207/22 244/3
NORMAN [1] 1/18 52/13 81 /24 134/7 order [8] 112/7 112/20 116/3 143/22
north [5] 43/22 57/19 58/25 69/21 93/19 occurring [1] 53/2 201/12 213/11 219/6 245/2
northeast [3] 62/3 69/22 109/20 occurs [1] 12/22 orders (1] 121/3
note [10] 22/22 37/4 79/20 81/10 85/20 Oconto (1] 109/15 organization [2] 188/10 188/11
142/3 176/12 242/20 242/23 245/22 offer (3) 68/10 127/14 131/6 organizations [1] 222/23
noted [9] 57 /17 69/8 83/11 84/23 169/6 offered [1] 240/7 organized {1] 175/11
184/1 241 /19 244/17 246/1 office [5] 89/1 10516 105/9 105/17 organizing [1] 74/20
notes [17] 11 /25 32/11 33/12 85/5 187/18 original (1] 208/5
131/16 167/16 168/2 16814 168/6 168/7 officer (12] 6/18 6/20 16/22 28/11 29/18 originally (4] 81/15 205/16 226/21
168/8 168/11 226/23 240/21 241/9 37 /7 44/24 89/3 117/18 128/6 150/19 231/13
241115 250/9 154/5 originated [2] 216/17 226/12
notice [4] 143/12 167/19 193/25 194/6 officers [26] 715 8/12 11119 11 /24 12/3 originating [1] 212/17
noticeable [1) 179/5 12/10 12/12 14/11 15/15 15/21 17/6 oth (1] 186/3
noticed [3] 80/4 110/3 240/20 19/9 29/8 30/13 31 /11 31111 35/11 otherwise [2] 118/22 154/19
noting [1 J 170/1 35/21 35/22 42/11 87/20 93/2 150/23 our [26] 16/1 23/21 29/8 32/3 37/22
November [51} 7/12 7/14 8/20 9/24 15/1 155/15 166/9 173/10 39/18 41/9 46/14 53/3 61/18 64/7 75/13
18/16 21/12 21/16 22/19 31/25 41/11 official [4] 2/4 211/8 250/4 250/19 82/15 92/22 137/10 152/20 152/25
41 /12 41 /18 43/5 45/22 83/6 89/15 officials [1 J 24/25 153/3 154/15 159/7 177/25 182/12
89/20 9012 90/7 91/19 92/1 93/16 96/1 oftentimes [1] 178/24 207 /24 220/22 224/10 244/20
97124 105/21 108/7 115/17 122/14 old [1) 100/16 outbuildings (1) 19/6
122/15126/1127/18134/6134/7 older (1] 139/3 outer [7] 225/5 230/3 238/18 238/22
135/10 139/10 140/2 146/3 146/4 OLSON [6] 4/9 219113 219/14 219118 241117 243/21 243/22
146/22 146/24 149/24 159119 168/14 219/23 239/1 4 outside [15] 44/5 48/11 63/1 101/10
168/15 173/13 187/8 187/8 229/11 on-scene [1] 51 /1 116/25 116/25 136/10 171 /25 238/7
229/11 241 /2 on-the-job-training [2] 222/10 222/17 238/11 238/14 238/21 238/23 239/2
period [4] 33118 111115 134/4 186/22 pit (27] 50/19 5115 71 /2 72/11 72/24
0 permission [1] 100/5 72125 74113 74/21741257513 75/15
outside ... (1] 23914 persona! [2] 42/21 77/8 153/1 155/9 155/14 15611 156/25
oval [2] 165/10 165/16 personally [5] 5/15 26/14 27/18 75/24 173/19177/16 177/18177/18177/19
overcast [1 J 139/24 113/11 177/20 178/3 178/7 224/22 242/10
overhead [5] 58/1 58/23 59/1 79/7 91 /9 personnel (4) 57/18 82/8 83/25 125/8 242/11
Overruled [1 J 126n persons [2] 134/23 135/23 place [1 OJ 42/7 84/10 84/16 95/16 100/8
oversee (1] 32/10 pertinent [1] 182/10 116/17 137/11 141/2 18518 245/16
overseeing [1] 54/14 Pevytoe (3] 52/21 71 /20 75/11 placed [11) 74/3 82/8 83/24 84/2 116/11
overview f31 57/1 58n 64/8 phenolphthalein (8] 163/4 163/5 163/11 152/8 152/15 152/20 157/21 197/24
p 163/22 164/20 165/22 166/5 166/7 245/17
phone (24] 48/16 49/4 49/10 49/18 67/9 places [1] 93/7
p.m (10] 57/9 130/4 136/20 137/5 69/12 99/7 99/1199/1899/21 99/24 placi ng [2] 149/4 155/21
152/24 158/19 219/2 219/3 247/18 100/5 100/6 100/13 101 /5 126/24 127/9 PLAINTIFF [1] 1/4
249/15 131 /13 135/18 223/22 223/23 223/25 plan [2] 58/16 219/14
package [7] 26/24 63117 65/24 87/2 224/1 224/9 planking [1] 53/4
9716 107/1 116/9 phosphorus [5] 232/25 233/8 236/17 planning [1] 54/17
packaged (7] 87/7 87/11 87/14 150/15 241 /20 243/2 plans [1] 140/17
159/1177/9178/6 photo [17] 15/2 15/11 28/4 44/3 49/15 plant (1] 133/21
packaging (2) 151/19 226/21 60125 63/8 551217812491n 99118 plastic [12) 59/20 74/1 O 118/11 142/12
packed [2) 172/9 180/21 102/2 102/6 106/11 107/14 154/11 197/9 197/10 227/3 228/4 245/17
padded [1] 60/8 154/21 245/20 246/20 246/24
padlock [2] 57/20 57/21 photograph [89] 10/16 10/25 11 /9 14/22 plastics [1] 220/11
page [3] 3/2 4/2 46/25 16/1617/217/1518/419/16 22/11 23/7 plate (9] 48/6 48/24 49/17 176/16
paint [5] 59/15 59/21 82/2 162/11 23/14 26/1 32/13 43/11 43/13 43/25 176/17 176/19 176/22 177/6 177/8
220/11 44/19 46/9 47/1 5 47122 48/5 48/22 49/7 plates [7] 138/11142/2151/9151/16
pair[1] 12/20 5013 5217 52/19 55/15 56/5 58/22 58/24 151 /18 15211 152/2
palm [3] 4 7/25 67/10 158/12 59/9 59/20 60/19 62/2 62/13 62122 63/2 platform [1) 155/18
panel (2) 45/12 142/11 63/7 64/6 64/8 64/12 64/15 64/18 64/23 play (2) 100/5 100/1 3
paper(5) 97n 107/2107/3 196/22 64/24 65/13 65/16 65/17 65/17 66/20 played (2) 99/11 126/24
203/17 69/1 82/15 84/8 84/10 84/12 84/18 plenty [1] 211123
papers [1] 189/3 84/20 91/13 91/17 91/21 93/10 94/11 plywood (2] 138/23 143/8
park[1] 138/1 95/18 95/23 96/14 102/5 104/10 105/14 pointed [3] 115/25 191 n 192/24
parked [5] 19/8 58/3 79/22 79/23 105/16 106/8 106/20 107/6 107/10 pointer (8] 9/15 44/7 44/8 52/1 O 66/10
101/10 11 4/7 114/24143/1154/2154/5154110 93/14 163/16 231/23
parking [1) 144/13 155/2 155/7 156/3 167/8 197/9 225/9 police [8) 29/4 29/6 29/18 89/2 109/15
Parkside (2] 133/7 133/14 225/11 230/2 236/10 109/17 109/18187/10
partially (1) 147/24 photog raphed [6] 32/20 57/17 95/20 polypropylene [3) 246/21 246/22 246/23
participate [3] 22117 43/6 146/12 96/9151110 151/11 pond [3] 138/3 138/5 144/9
participated (4] 72/1 O 152/23 155/8 photographer [6] 127/1 131117136/24 portable [1] 8711
158/8 143/1 145/4 149/17 portion (4 J 8/6 39/7 63/14 104/17
participation [1] 124/18 photographic (4] 59/10 80/10 84/2 84/17 position (7) 28/12 33/21 141/2 177/21
particle [1 J 232/16 photog raphs [5] 45/17 48/9 91 /4 95/21 184/21 187/9 200/3
particles [3] 149/8 158/6 232/4 114/17 positive [5) 84/23 161117 163/21 164/19
particularly (5] 117/18 11 8/8 134/19 photography [2] 28/23 58/5 18113
146/23 149/24 photos (3) 10/10 47/18 99/14 positively [2] 47/13 67/13
parts [1] 194/25 phrases (1] 193118 possess (1] 128121
pass [1] 137/9 physical [5] 22/9 22/18 22/21 182/7 possession [1J 107/3
passage [3] 140/23 205/2 207112 182/15 possibility [5] 12/9 125/3 141 /18 142/21
passenger [1] 58/2 physically (3] 37/6 61/15 61/19 172/4
passes[1] 195/15 physics (2) 184/1 o 184/17 possible (12] 26/15 27/19 34/17 162/22
past [4] 90/25 156/4 156/5 219/8 pick [10] 12/25 13/1 53/217717101/15 180/6 190/5 194/21 194/22 215/6 218/2
path [1 J 172/15 113/11 123117156/18157110 162/16 218/6 242/18
patrol (4] 6/6 6/15 6/17 8917 picked [12] 62/8 110/11 110/16 110/22 possibly [5] 30115 45/9 141 /13 179/4
pattern (4] 160/10 160/13 195/22 223/5 113/20 113/22 113/23 115/25 118/6 206/1 1
patterns [11) 195/10 195/17 196/4 121113 125/3 125/14 post [3] 42/1 50/14 222/4
196/5 196/6 196/11 209/14 209/18 picking (3] 62/5 149/3 157/7 post-recovery [1] 50/14
209/23 210/3 210/9 picks (1) 53/14 poster [1] 105/19
pavement [2] 83/8 85/8 pickup (11 101/10 posts [2] 138/24 143/9
PDA (2] 48/1 67/11 picture (12] 13/10 15/7 70/2 80/4 80/13 potatoes (1] 148/1
pending [1] 235/19 81/10 82/25 85/5 11 5/11 180/7 231 /22 potential [10] 51/17 51/25 61/21 77/16
penetrations (11 70/17 232/14 86/11123/15170/4177/1177/2178/2
pennies [1] 161 /22 piece (13) 12/23 13/3 19/17 6017 69/13 potentially [1 OJ 36/11 53/23 54/21 56/23
penny [2] 161/17 161/18 116/16 124/21 138/23 162/24 192/12 63/19 77/14 172/14 175/24 180/1 180/2
perceived (1] 237/14 225/3 230/19 236/7 pour [1] 140n
perfect [1] 129/23 pieces (6) 717 111/1 149/9 205/22 powder [3] 152/14 177/1 213/7
perform[8] 90/897/11105/21119/9 229/12 231/11 power [1] 213/6
119/19 199/14 203/4 222/12 pile [1) 92/17 PowerShot (6) 47/24 49/24 50/4 50/6
performed [2] 97123 159/18 piled [2] 92/9 138/21 50/9 67110
performing [1) 222/11 pill [2] 96/8 96/13 practical (2) 86125 188/4
performs [1] 11 /18 pillowcase [1] 121/19 practice [1) 220/8
perhaps (4) 13/9 20/13 172/21 192116 pin [3] 192/7 192/11 200/16 precautions [1] 229/4
perimeter (1] 166/3 pistol [2] 152/16 177/9 precise (1) 114/14
properly [3] 144/5 192/1 201 /8 RAZR [5] 47/25 48/16 48/25 49/9 67/9
p property (24] 8/22 19/5 19/11 19/23 re [5] 3/16 714 61/14 93/4 128/18
precisely [1] 213/24 23/20 23/24 24/1 31/9 42/13 43/7 50/12 Re-redirect [2] 3/16 128/18
preference [2] 77/3 77/8 50/16 51 /4 57/8 73/7 75/8 89/17 89/24 re-search [1] 93/4
preferred [2) 77/4 7716 90/13 105/10 110/12 110/14 111/1 reach [4] 148/25 202/21 206/21 208/24
prepare (2] 221/19 241/7 121/23 reached [2] 68/5 114/9
prepared [2] 49/12 250/8 Prosecutor [3] 1/14 1/16 1/18 react [8] 161/11 161/14 16217 162/10
preparing [1] 235/3 prosecutors [1] 5/12 178/17 178/22 179/23 180/4
presence [1 OJ 66/21 82/1 82/2 165/21 protect [3] 30/18 87/2 143/23 reacted (3] 84/1 165/25 166/19
179/16 234/8 238/24 239/11 241 /19 protective (1] 12/11 reacting [1] 161/21
242/12 proved [1] 53/3 reaction [3] 162/21 163/21 165/6
present [18] 54/15 56/24 58/10 73/1 Public (1] 134/13 reactions [2] 162/15 164/19
79/2115015 155/15204/21 207/11 published [2] 248/14 249/4 reactive [1] 161/4
228/16 229/20 229/23 232/9 233/7 puddle [1] 172/21 reacts [4) 161/9 161/15 162/2 163/5
236/20 237/11 237/23 237/25 pull (1 O] 39/5 55/9 103/4 103/6 192/2 readily [5] 51/21 59/4 94/22 95/23 17915
presented (2) 71 /22 189/4 200/5 200/9 200/14 245/3 245/12 ready [2] 130/6 219/11
preserve [4] 117/23 118/12 119/21 pulled [11 J 36/4 93/22 93/24 94/19 reagents [1] 162/1
143/23 94/21 95/6 139/15 143/5 169/22 169/22 real [3] 111/16157/2 218/12
preserved [5] 117/1 117/3 118/3 118/17 192/13 rear [5] 59/22 60/24 66/16 114/20
159/8 pulling [2] 93/20 192/3 142/10
preserving (1) 123/21 Purdue [1] 184/12 reason [6] 81 /21 86/22 110/21 128/24
presume (1] 216/3 pure [1] 242/19 221/7 248/6
pretty [9] 14n 141/5 148/8 157/13 purpose [1] 156/7 reasonable (4] 203/1 209/4 239/17
160/7 172/17 175/3 175/15 211/22 purposely (1) 234/3 239/22
previous [7] 48/24 64/7 64/12 82/9 purposes [8] 23/6 82/12 109/25 11 7/1 receipt[4] 56/9119/20211/12240/1
83/18 232/12 237/9 124/23 214/18 222/24 226/10 receive [9] 75/20 133/9 133/12 133/15
previously [7] 13/15 83/4 153/4 166/15 pursue [1] 184/13 181 /3 226/10 226/16 229/9 249/2
168/2 168/8 227/17 pursuit (1] 133/17 received [32] 9/13 18/23 24/5 28/7 42/4
primary [2] 41/6 71/25 push [2] 79/14 157/12 48/19 56/21 61 /22 66/4 66/23 67/25
primer [2] 191/10 191 /15 pushes [1] 200/7 68/15 102/3 104/15 109/2 116/8 135/15
primers (1] 28/21 putting (3] 72/19 195/4 231 /11 167/13184/15196/17 212/12 222/4
prints [2] 118/18 172/10 outtv 121 53/14 77/8 222/10 223/16 226/25 227/2 227/10
prior [13] 6/17 20/11 31/7 32/6 32/15 229/11 240/9 243/24 244/1 248/13
Q receiving [1] 133/17
75/10 84/21 90/2 113/14 114/2 120/21
145/10 229/4 Q-tip [1 ] 26/22 reception [1] 167/10
procedure [7] 54/19 71/1 8 71/21 71/24 qualifications [2] 211/22 221/18 recess [6] 68/2 68/3 130/3 218/23 219/2
72/17 73/17 199/2 qualified [2] 97/13 110/1 219/8
procedures [1] 77/18 quantity [2] 53/11 58/1 recesses (1] 219/7
proceed [3] 89/16 130/6 219/11 quarter (8) 140/7 141/17 142/10 148/19 recognizable [1] 59/4
proceeded (4] 62/4 62/11 155/13 159/6 157/18 157/20 157/20 175/18 recogn ize (17] 16/17 19/17 19/20 45/7
proceeding [1] 219/5 quarter-in [1) 157/20 102/4 147/25 158/8 193/21 196/19
proceedings [2] 2/2 250/13 quarter-inch [2) 157118 157/20 196/25197/16197/24 210/16 221/15
process (50] 7/8 22/2 24/21 25/11 26/18 quarters [1] 175/16 230/2 230/9 230/20
29/11 37/11 37/18 40/5 46/1 49/21 queen [1] 13/23 recognized [2] 51/21158/10
49/22 50/21 50/24 5213 52/3 52111 53/3 quibble [1] 112/19 Recog nizing [1] 23/9
53/10 54/9 54/14 54/18 55/20 55/23 quick [3] 10/5 110/5 218/12 recollection [2] 123/2 248/23
74/19 77/5 86/4 143/18 144/2 148/18 quickly [1) 247/9 recommend [1] 224/4
149/2 149/16 149/23 151 /21 155/14 quilt [1] 121/21 recommended [1] 160/15
155/16 157/14 157/15158/8158/18 quite [9] 55/1 O 92/14 140/3 140/8 Reconstruction [1] 223/4
168/22 168/24 170/1 170/3 173/22 161/15161/17 161/25162/2 193/19 Reconvened [4] 5/168/4130/4 219/3
176/22 178/10 178/12 194/23 208/2 record [12] 5/25 24/8 40/21 65/21 88/20
processed [13) 6/23 37/17 38/8 38/9
R 114/25 118/25 126/23130/17181/22
48/10 67/1 151/15 152/14164/10 171/2 rack (12] 15/4 15/5 15/8 15/11 16/10 219/22 248/11
176/17 176/19 176/23 16/1116/13 16/19 17/3 36/14 101/23 recorded [1] 99/12
processes [1] 173/14 103/24 records [3] 111/13 214/22 215/1
processing (24] 25/15 30/3 30/24 37/16 rain [6] 30/20 140/14 145/11 169/8 recover(?] 51/16 54/21 99/6101/13
44/13 45/23 46/3 117/25 118/13 119/11 169/15 170/2 106/14 189/17 198/25
131/7 143/24147/15147/19 148/24 rained (2) 169/12 170/6 recovered [4 7] 17/19 18/15 18/23 20/23
149/12 15116 151/25155/9158/23 raining [1) 145/13 20/23 46/10 48/10 49/8 49/19 49/23
171 /23 176/25 176/25 223/10 raise [7] 5/20 40/16 53/4 88/14 130/12 50/15 51/2 51/10 55/9 55/10 55/23
professional [4] 23/10 188/3 188/1 O 181/17 219/17 55/24 56/5 63/13 65/6 66/25 6717 96/2
222/24 Rambler [3] 138/14 142/10 143/5 96/4 96/15 97/4101/5101/21106/15
professionals (1) 22/13 ramp [1] 98/12 108/5 108/7 113/5 156/25 182/8 183/1
program [4] 185/7 185/10 211/25 random [1 J 164/24 189/11 189/20 189/21 189/23 189/25
220/23 range [3] 166/24167/3 191/6 195/24 195/25 196/9 201120 215/16
project [1] 169/1 O rather [3] 13/23 132/12 139/15 221 /4 245/11
projected (4) 154/15 154/16 192/25 RAV (12] 30/1 30/4 30/25 38/7 38/11 recovering [2] 136/4 235/4
217/12 138/7 144/25 151 /9 152/7 168/16 recovery [7] 43/8 50/14 55/18 63/23
projectile [6] 190/23 235/13 235/25 168/19 173/9 65/7 98/15 98/23
238/2 238/8 242/6 ray [7] 5/14 229/24 230/11 230/23 Recross [4) 3/15 4/7 128/4 218/13
projection [1] 197/3 231 /18 232/17 236/10 Recross-Examination [4] 3/15 4/7 128/4
propelled (2] 192/21 192/22 RAYMOND [1] 1/22 218/13
proper [1] 144/4 rays [4] 228/18 229/22 230/7 231 /1 O rectangular [2] 66/18 157/23
reproducing [2) 196/11 209/14 rim [2) 44/10 148/6
R request[1) 152/24 rinsing (1) 77/2
red [4] 86/20 94/6 154/25 156/4 requested [5] 23/23 25/16 25/18 146/5 rip [1 J 170/11
redirect (16) 3/10 3/14 3/16 4/6 4/12 244/6 Rivers [1] 22/6
40/10 87/16 87/17 125/19 125/21 requirements (1] 223/10 rivet [2] 55/15 55/17
128/18 181/8 217/23 217/25 246/4 research [4] 133/21 134/10 189/3 223/9 rivets [6) 55/10 55/12 55/19 55/22 55/24
246/6 reservation [2] 108/11 249/3 56/4
reduced [1) 100/6 reserve [2] 240/13 240/14 road (4] 6/17 6/20 42/1 137/8
ref[1) 80/1 O reside [1) 42/~2 roadway (4) 43/20 67/5 138/4 138/5
refer [5] 80/6 226/23 240/21 241 /8 residence [42) 8/21 9/25 10/6 10/13 Roberta [1] 104/20
241/15 11/21 13/11 19/25 20/16 32/14 32/21 rode [2) 145/5 145/18
reference [2] 80/10 198/4 33/5 34/1 41/19 43/15 51/6 51/10 56/10 role [10) 28/12 30/6 30/22 31 /3 32/9
referred [6] 50/18 95/8 98/22 107/14 56/22 57/13 98/3 98/16 98/25 99/2 99/8 36/24 132/3 149/23 150/3 151 /22
218/17 226/1 99/10 99/13 99/19 104/3 104/8 105/2 roll [3) 60/1 o 90/24 144111
referring [8] 102/25 122/2 163/12 105/22 105/24 106/1 107/1 117/8 rolled [2) 144/21 152/3
167/16 225/18 238/14 238/15 238/17 127/17 159/22 159/22 159/23 160/10 roller [6) 60/1 60/4 6017 60/14 60/19
refit [1) 231/14 160/14161/1 61/1
refits [3) 227/4 227/5 227/6 residences [4] 19/6 19/1 O 23/24 159/21 rolling [1) 64/14
reflected [3) 132/9 163/19 215/1 residue [2] 160/19 182/19 roof [2) 139/16 169/22
refresh (1] 167/22 residues [1) 190/9 roofing [ 1) 206/17
regularly [2) 125/6 223/6 resolved [1) 108/13 room [13) 9/7 9/8 9/20 10/12 10/17
relate [2) 208/15 214/7 resources [1] 16/1 10/20 11/6 13/14 13/24 14/2 14/3 33/14
related [8] 43/3 51/23 127/22 182/16 respect [12) 150/18 165/24 202/14 104/16
183/4 185/5 210/25 213/5 206/21 214/8 227/21 232/7 235/8 rooms [3] 9/3 33/8 34/3
relates [1] 182/21 236/14 237/3 238/22 239/20 roots [1) 139/13
Relating [1) 223/1 respond [11] 6/20 714 7/15 29/12 41/20 rope [8) 244/4 244/7 244/17 245/24
relative (4) 206/22 213/5 237/13 238/23 42/8 131 /14 132/21 135/2 135/3 135/5 245/25 246/9 246/14 246/25
relatively [5) 57/25 93/1 97/22 142/7 responded [ 1) 42/1 Roswell [1) 78/9
242/18 response [27) 24/9 96/21 110/3 128/2 rotational [1 ] 132/14
release [3] 26/7 39/12 39/13 131/4131/5131/11 131/18131/19 round [4] 65/2 103/4 103/5 103/7
released [2] 40/6 192/13 131123 132/4 132n 132118 132122 rounds [4) 103/151 03/17111/10
relevance [1) 61/21 133/1 134/20 134/21 135/7 136/21 199/20
relevancy [1] 123/23 137/1 145/22 149/18 151/24152/21 routinely [1) 12/14
relevant[4] 52/1 54/1 118/22 118/23 220/20 220/22 235/19 row [4) 137/24 137/24 137/24 138/6
reload [1 J 103/16 responsibilities [12] 6/20 8/8 11 /20 RPR [2) 2/3 250/19
relocated [1] 33/20 11 /24 12/2 19/8 23/19 23/22 29/2 29/5 ruler [3) 64/25 65/1 65/1
rem [1] 53/2 32/3 58/15 ruling [2) 240/14 248/17
remain [1] 193/15 responsibility [4) 22/4 22/10 37/14 87/10 running [1) 93/18
remained [2] 204/7 205/17 responsible [2) 57/11 186/3 rustv 111 161/23
remaining [5] 166/23 205/5 205/15
216/14 216/16
rest [1] 99/13
resting [1) 172/2
s
remains [9) 51/22 53/22 53/23 72/5 restraining [1) 17/9 sack [2) 116/14 116/19
153/13 158/9 158/10 158/13 224/1 restraint [1) 17/8 Sacramento (4) 184/22 185/8 186/1
remember [16) 8/1 17/17 95/25 96/1 rests [ 1] 60/9 186/11
104/15 115/24 116/1 118/3 121 /20 result [2] 56/20 56/24 safe [2] 198/16 199/14
121/24 124/19 124/20 124/25 125/1 resulted [1) 213/15 safety [3) 26/11 134/13 199/19
125/2 125/4 results [2) 181/4 221/9 sake [1) 84/1
Remiker [8) 8/18 11 /4 14/5 32/17 58/14 resume [1] 5/4 sale [2) 11/9 13/11
89/23 99/10 135/21 retaining [1) 138/3 saliva [1) 77/15
remind [3) 129/25 219/5 247/16 return [3) 56/21 146/6162/13 salvage [13) 7/16 23/20 42113 43/7
reminiscent [1) 148/5 returned [3) 146/15 146/19 151 /8 89/17 135/25 137/3 137/23 146/7
remnants [1) 22/23 returning [1) 134/18 146/13 146/15 147/2 151/8
remodeling [1] 53/2 review [4) 37/20 47/12 75/25 241/9 salvaged [1) 137/24
remove [11) 61 /15 79/12 84/7 104/4 reviewed [3) 75/4 225/25 241 /13 sample [4] 163/2 233/10 234/4 242/19
114/11 124/11 124/14 124/16 155/25 reviewing [1) 76/4 samples [3) 236/12 243/8 243/11
170/7 245/20 revolve [1) 213/18 Samurai [1) 91/15
removed [25) 51/11 59/8 61/13 61/14 revolver [1) 193/13 San [1) 185/20
64/17 72/24 73/7 75/7 75/8 79/22 80/2 Rick [1) 21/8 sand [1) 53/17
80/20 82/13 87/7 87/13 92/20 92/24 rid [1) 77/11 sat [1) 77/17
93/11 93/17 94/15 114/2 116/12 122/8 ridgeline [1] 232/22 satisfied [2) 206/4 217/4
170/12 246/20 riding [2) 94/1 94/4 satisfy [1] 210/5
remover [1) 245/10 Riemer [3) 20/24 21/8 37/7 Saturday [4) 135/10 135/15 146/10
removing [2) 169/18 173/11 rifle [44) 16/15 95/11102/1102/6102/7 149/18
render[1] 187/22 102/12 102/14 102/21 102/22 102/23 saved [1 ) 159/4
Repackage [1] 56/7 103/1 103/1 103/10 103/21 106/4 106/7 sawed [1) 139/15
replaying [1) 108/11 113/3117/22118/10128/11128/12 scaffold [1) 53/4
report [9) 17/20 46/25 46/25 47/12 183/7 193/9 197/13 197/20 197/22 scaffolding [1) 52/25
166/8 182/11 210/20 210/22 211/2 197/23 198/4 201 /23 201 /23 202/18 scale [2] 23/5 64/24
reported [4) 2/3 152/5 161/24 250/6 202/24 203/5 207/8 208/22 209/2 209/8 scanning [2) 228/17 232/5
reportedly [1] 152/8 209/11 209/17 210/13 211 /1 211/7 scene [35) 7/5 7/15 7/19 8/3 8/5 15/24
Reporter [5) 2/4 7120 7124 25015 250/19 216/11 217/13 24/2 29/11 30/4 30/24 31 /13 32/15
reports [7) 211 /8 240/25 241 /5 241 /6 rifles [2) 16/12 101 /23 34/1137/1642/742/1645/1651/1
248/21 248/22 248/25 right-hand [2] 205/7 207/4 51/11 51/11 131/4 131/15 132/12 135/6
shoveled [1] 155/17
s securing [2] 30/22 38/11
security (2) 8/8 30/22 show (44] 16/1517/1218/918/1819/12
scene ... [11] 141/10143/19158/22 seem [1] 172/3 23/25 27/1 1 44/16 46/7 48/3 48/19 49/2
159/14 168/14169/19 171/23 176/23 seemed [2] 137115 180/9 49/25 52/4 55/13 55125 58/19 59/17
215/17 223/3 223/10 seemingly [1] 165/7 60/17 63/4 64/3 64/21 65/12 66/2 66/22
scenes [5] 6/23 131 /8 132/20 189/18 seems [4) 80/14 172/17 180/14 232/3 91/5 94/6 95/2 96/5 98/8 102/9 104/10
235/18 seen (4] 13/16 43/1 148/5 161 /23 104/18 105/13 106/17 107/17 155/1
school [1] 90/6 seize [1] 104/4 180/24 196/15 197/16 210/16 225/9
schools [2] 102/19 222/18 seized (7) 15/15 15/17 16/23 18/15 37 /8 230/1 243/12
science (10] 97/18 109/17 109/18 103/21 117/7 showed [2] 31/10 229/23
184/10 184/16 188/16 220/7 222/1 seizing [1) 34/21 showers [1) 140/16
223/1 233/13 select [1] 201/15 showing (15] 14/19 23/1 23/4 36/5 93/9
scientific (4] 203/1 209/4 239/18 239/22 semi [8] 102/1 102/7 102/13 102/23 95/12 102/2 102/10 104/23 107/8
scientist [2] 220/2 234/9 102/25 103/10 193/8 197123 154/10 197/3 225/8 230/4 230/13
Scientists (1] 223/2 semi-automatic (8) 102/1 102/7 102/13 shown [2] 47/14 99/15
scoop [2] 156/15 174/25 102/23 102/25 103/10 193/8 197/23 shows (4] 154/24 23111 231/7240/6
scoopful [1] 157/21 seminars [1 J 189/2 side (20] 14/1 14/5 33/23 36/4 57/19
Scoopfuls (1) 149/5 send (1) 224/15 59/22 64/14 66/16 70/23 92/9 92/9
scooping [3] 175/7 176/6 177/17 sensitive (1] 191 /12 92/11 92/13 92/15 92/16 94/24 131 /20
scope [1 J 10/3 sent (12) 21/9 31/24 37/19 46/15 65/7 165/16 195/12 238/21
scratched [11 207/9 90/15 98/25 101 /14 104/6 105/24 171 /9 sides [1 J 175/8
scratches [6) 93/20 93/22 195/11 222/17 Sielehr [1 J 52/23
195/17 208/14 209/14 separate [4] 36/20 57/10 73/21 174/6 sift (6) 53/19 76/4 148/18 149/1 153/9
screen (26] 11/11 27/6 65/23 68/24 separately (1] 112/21 156/9
91/25 93/10 99/16 104/11 149/6 149/7 September (2) 184/5 187/14 sifted [9] 71/6 71/10 71/16 76/17 148/9
153/24 154/16 154/21 154/22 156/17 sergeant [20] 3/3 6/6 6/15 8/1 O 912 9/12 153/21 155/21 158/25 178/7
156/18 156/20 158/3 158/4 159/4 159/9 11/16 14/4 17/10 17/23 20/21 23/12 sifter (7] 155/20 156/1 156/3 156/7
163/10 163/20 197/6 231 /25 232/2 24/4 24/18 27/25 32/18 33/22 89/22 157/4 158/19 159/6
screens (2) 53/20 163/13 105/23 115/6 sifters (1) 153/3
sealed [5] 97/6 107/3177/9 227/3 228/4 serial [4) 31/25 32/4 198/1198/12 sifting (23] 50/21 52/3 53/20 55/20
search (96] 8/13 8/20 8/23 9/25 10/3 series (3) 24/3 185/24 198/21 71/18 72/15 73/1173/1776/5 76/9
10/5 10/6 10/11 10/18 10/19 11 /20 serologist (1) 134/2 77/18 77/21147/4147/4 149/16152/25
11/21 13/21 14/9 15/1317/5 19/2 19/4 service (2) 6/21 147/1 153/22155/16155/18 157/15173/15
19/22 20/2 20/10 21/3 21/5 21/6 22/6 services (2] 146/5 146/22 173/15174/4
31/5 31/5 31/8 31/19 31/24 32/2 32/7 set(15] 17110 17/11 18/12 18/20 62/9 signal [1) 142/11
32/16 33/10 36/20 42/11 42/12 43/7 68/6 71/18 72/14 72/16121/24 147/3 significance [1) 150/10
50/1156/956/14 56/21 57/12 57/14 156/3156/17177/21191/15 significant [1] 23/15
59/2 62/18 62/18 64/7 78/3 78/11 78/15 sets (1) 121/23 signify (1] 237/13
79/10 81 /25 82/9 82/20 83/18 85/25 setting (1) 33/1 signs (2) 1017 143/9
89/10 89/21 89/24 90/8 90/16 91/1 93/1 setup [1] 149/6 silly (1) 77/10
93/4 94/16 94/17 94/18 94/19 95/7 98/1 seven (2] 42/10 231 /7 similar (7] 18/14 18/22 72/13 79/23
98/14 99/1 99/2 99/3 99/5 101 /6 101 /8 several (22] 9/3 10/10 19/2 51/8 85/21 85/16 108/6 243/12
101 /9 104/3 104/8 105/9 105/22 106/1 89/23 92/11 95/10 102/19 103/11 similarly [2] 232/11 239/3
119/7 119/18 119/19 120/13 120/18 105/25 121/23 137/8 147/12 162/14 simply [5] 42/20 199/5 202/1O218/19
120/25 125/25 126/13 126/16 146/7 164/15 164/18 167/22 175/22 183/3 248/18
146/12 160/23 221 /3 222/18 simultaneously [1) 141 /6
searched (13] 14/6 31/14 61/13 83/4 shape [2] 165/1 o 203/20 single [3] 34/14 186/22 188/9
91/8 93/7 95/17 97/22 125/24 127/18 shaped (2) 158/2 165/10 Sippel [1) 121/4
151/12 151/14160/9 sheet [1] 240/6 sit [3] 31 /16 96/11 113/19
searchers (1) 33/4 shelf (2) 36/3 62/7 sites [1] 177/24
searches (8] 11 /18 12/8 19/10 23/22 shell [25] 70/25 79/18 95/9 95/11 95/15 sitting [2) 11 /5 148/7
31/22 97/23 97/25 110/25 95/19 95/20 95/21 96/2 96/4 96/8 96/12 situation [1] 144/2
searching (20] 12/3 12/10 19/6 31 /9 97/2 97/4 97/12 97/13 113/2 113/6 six [4) 153/10 155/19156/12 241/16
32/21 33/13 3 7/3 58/18 78/7 84/10 114/2 114/15 114/19 119/9 119/12 size (5) 13/20 13/24 166/24 206/18
90/12 91 /3 92/23 99/13 105/5 107/2 119/20 125/15 213/2
113/16 115/6 120/17 150/13 shells (7] 112/8 116/23 118/11 128/1 O skewer (1) 77/6
seat (6) 75/22 75/25 153/15 154/13 214/9 214/24 215/16 skewers (1) 53/13
156/6 178/13 Sheriffs [16] 617 6/1 O 6/11 6/14 8/16 Ski [1] 91/15
seated [7] 5/24 40/20 88/19 130/16 28/13 51/13 52/16 73/13 89/1 97/8 Ski-doo [1] 91/15
181/21 219/21 247/19 107/7 135/4 147/1 150/5 150/16 skinning[1) 178/21
sec [1) 199/24 shiny [1) 161/16 skull (13] 224/21 224/21 224/23 224/25
second (13) 3217 38/7 38/8 38/13 41/10 shock [1 ] 191 /12 225/2 225/4 225/11 225/19 227/8
57/13 64/7 66/14 74/7 154/1 203/4 shoot (1] 103/17 228/14 230/12 235/21 238/17
208/1 227/5 shooting [5] 189/12 190/1 190/3 196/2 sky [1] 171/17
secondly(1] 198/15 196/9 slash [2] 228/5 228/5
section [6] 186/1 186/24 212/4 212/5 shop [1] 101/8 sled [1] 94/21
212/7 212/9 short [2] 134/10 213/3 slide [3) 112/12 116/2 245/16
sections [1) 52/25 shorthand [1) 250/10 slim [1) 12513
secure [6] 12/2 30/1 74/5 140/17 141120 shot [7] 87 /23 100/24 126/3 126/12 slivers [1] 246/13
145/14 128/8 224/2 235/21 slot [1] 200/2
secured (6) 38/18 74/3 140/19 145/1 shotgun (2) 193/9 193/24 slows [1] 202/10
152/16 152/18 shovel (6] 148/25 155/24 156/6 156/8 slug [1] 190/24
secures [1] 26/5 156/14 157/9 small [17) 13/23 32/22 33/1 33/7 53/11
stopped (1) 85/15
s 231/1 237/17
spray [7J 162124 179/13 179/18 179/20 stopping [1] 103/16
small. .. [1 2] 63/12 138/21 149/5 149/8 180/4 180/17 18111 storage [2] 38/19 122/5
153/10 158/15 160/6 164/23 165/4 sprayed [1] 181 /5 stored [2] 25/17 73/22
197/8 225/2 242/2 spread [1] 158/3 storm (4) 30/12 30/16 138/3 140/8
smaller [6] 14/2 135/4 156/19 167/1 spring [1] 112/13 storms [1] 153/20
229/19 231/7 spritz [1] 162/23 story [1] 194/11
smashed (1] 205/23 Square [1) 165/10 straps [1] 145/2
smeary [1] 165/6 Square-shaped [1] 165/10 stria (7] 195/12 195/18 196/4 208/14
Smithville (1] 134/11 squee [1] 76/25 209/14 210/2 210/3
smooth [1] 246/11 squeeze [1] 76/25 strike [4] 173/13191/14 192/4192/14
smoother [1] 172/22 SS [1] 250/1 striker [2] 192/12 200/16
snag (1] 246/14 stacked [4] 61 /8 62/6 64/17 180/25 strikes [1] 192/9
snagging [ 1) 246/13 staff [1 ) 6/17 striking [ 1) 238/6
snap [1] 200/15 stage (3] 15/14 85/24 90/11 strong (1] 245/9
snow [2] 57/25 58/1 stages [1] 28/22 strongest {5] 232/24 233/6 236/16
snowbank [1) 63/1 stain [2] 166/16 223/5 236/18 236/20
snowmobile (1 OJ 62/7 91/16 92120 staining [1] 160/12 struck [4] 85/16 191/13 205/21 207/13
92/24 93/17 93/20 93/25 95/6 164/25 stains [6] 86/24 92/19 161/2 161/4 stuck [1] 199/25
179/22 161/24 16415 studies (1) 182/19
snowmobile's [1] 93/11 stamping [1 J 55/16 stuff (5] 30/21 61 /11 125/15 125/15
Society [1) 226/14 stand [6] 5/19 40/15 88/13 94/7 148/21 179/16
soil [3] 53116 72/23 75/7 165/1 Sturdivant [3] 155/11 159/5 159/11
solid [1] 90/21 Stand-up [1) 94/7 subject [4] 83/17 211/11 240/1 249/2
solvent [1] 245/20 standard [2) 18/7 18/1 2 subjecting [1] 229/5
somehow [3] 43/2 93/24 171/21 standards [1] 21 /24 submitted [18) 183/2 183/7 183/10
sometime (3] 25/7 45/21 45/21 standing (6) 36/4 53/7 58/25 63/9 99/11 197/2 201/19 202/17 205/19 214/12
sometimes [3] 124/3 132/2 190/24 155/19 214/16 214/24 215/7 215/9 215/14
somewhat [2] 78/3 175/11 standpoint [3] 229/21 229/22 233/14 215/19 223/20 226/21 227/11 227/24
somewhere [3) 29/16 103/14 149/13 stands [1] 249/15 subsequent [2) 51 /14 229/8
sort (30] 37/20 70122 72/16 74/20 76124 staring [1] 168/4 substance [1] 162/3
121/21 122/5 138/4 140/15 148/13 start [7] 10/12 33/19 137118 149/3 substances [7] 161/12 161/14 161116
148/14152/3 153/14156/14 156/15 160/2 163/17 231/16 162/3 162/6 162/6 232/21
157/16 158/4 158/4 162/1 162/18 started [8) 32/20 33/17 77/21 78/16 succeeding [1] 149/24
164/23 165/14 165/16 170/10 170/17 146/25 147/9 147/11 164/5 successfully [2] 185/11 185119
177/22 24216 245/2 245/16 248/14 state's [3] 68/25 78/25 187/4 successing [1 J 103/6
sorting [2] 50/21 52/3 statement (15] 20/4 21 /5 24/4 24/8 sufficient (1) 207/15
sorts [1 J 148/15 24/11 24/12 24/24 25/3 57/6 60/1 113/9 sufficiently [t] 87/2
sought [1] 56/21 123/24 126/11213/17221/18 suggest [2] 217/16 234/12
sound [2] 71/24 77/10 statements [6] 56/19 56/20 59/5 61/22 suggested [1] 136/11
sounds (1] 129/23 62/16 126/2 suggestive [3] 129/2 129/3 129/12
source [2] 212/18 234/15 states [2] 27/18 113/8 suggests [1] 87/19
south [11) 43/23 59/22 59/23 60/22 62/4 station [1] 147/4 suitable [1] 53/3
62/11 62/12 64/10 66/16 92/13 93/19 stay [1 J 193/14 summary [1 ] 168/7
southeast [1] 91/10 stayed (3) 146/16 146/17 146/18 Sunday [8] 41/18 89/15 91/8 146/1
spade [1) 156/14 steel [5] 18/7 43/13 44/10 55/7 55/7 146/15 146/16 146/17 149/18
spare [2] 101 /17 122/21 Steier (1 ) 58/12 Superior (1) 222/2
speak [4] 6/8 89/25 113/15 130/1 stenographic [1] 250/9 supervise [1] 6/16
speaking (2] 110/24 236/23 step (11] 40/13 88/8 88/11 129/15 supeNisor (3] 6/16 128/13 128/15
spec (1 ] 120/23 156/17 181/10 199/4 218/21 244/13 supervisory (2) 28/12 28/25
special [1 9] 1/14 1/1 6 1/18 3/7 5/12 244/24 247/3 supplemental [1] 5319
25/1 41/19 42/2 52/20 52/22 52123 stereo [1] 228/14 suppose [1 l 225/17
56/16 71 /20 75/11 107/4 155/11 227/11 sterile [1 J 26/23 supposed [1 J 36/17
227/1 1 229/3 Steve [21 121/14 124/12 surface [26] 157/9 172/22 195/1 8 196/4
specialist {1] 133/21 Steve's [5) 9/23 31/8 33/17 37/23 207/10 208/14 225/5 228/22 230/3
specialization (1] 223/7 122/24 230/13 235/22 235/24 238/17 238/18
specialized [6) 6/22 6125 714 716 31/1 8 Steven (43) 8/24 13/19 14/23 17/16 238/19 238/21 239/2 243/18 243/19
188/22 19/24 20/16 22/15 31/6 31/19 43/14 243/20 243/21 243/22 245/4 245/12
specialty [1) 4 7110 43/20 43/22 51/5 51/10 56/11 56/22 246/12 246/16
specie [1] 212/16 57/12 58/22 67/4 79/3 9019 101/10 surfaces (3) 228/15 238/7 246/1 1
specifics [1] 20/1 1 101/14 101 /22 102112 103/23 105/22 surmise [1] 47/6
speed [9) 112/14 112/20 112/23 112/25 105/24 106/4 106/16 107/20 110/6 surprise [1) 243/14
113/1 235/13 235/25 238/2 238/8 110/13 110/24 115/5 117/15 118/21 surprised [1] 243/9
spell [6) 5/25 40/21 88/20 130/1 7 122/22 126/1 0 128/20 153/2 159/21 surrounded [1] 142/20
181/22 219/22 159/23 surrounding [1 J 41 /13
spend [2) 157/7 212/3 Steven's [1] 107/11 surroundings [1] 177/22
spent[3] 42/17 183/21 211/25 sticker[1] 197/24 suspect [4] 34/15 76/12 233/9 234/5
spindle [1] 245/4 still [5] 81111 112/21 139/14 139/25 suspected [4) 76/22 227/4 227/7 228/8
spindles [2] 246/11 246/19 144/21 SUV [6] 25/9 137/22 139/9 141/8
spot [5] 163/20 165/4 165/8 166/23 stock [3] 213/14 213/24 214/2 141 /22 143/19
171/17 stood [6] 14/7 3017 9214 120/19 120/20 Suzuki [3) 80/18 80/20 91 /15
spots [1 1J 162/15 162/18 164/15 164/18 156/16 swab [8] 26/14 26/20 27/4 27/19 39/6
164/23 166/19 166/23 174/20 229/23 stop [5] 98/8 127/8 138/15 159/24 161 /7 39112 39/20 86/22
three-foot [1] 157/23
s term [5] 61 /15 143/19 176/18 194/10
225/13 three-month [1] 185/1 O
swabbed [10) 27/7 27/9 38/25 39/1 terms [15] 23/18 80/8 133/18 182/7 three-quarters [1] 175/16
39/24 40/3 86/9 86/19 86/21 165/21 183/22 184/18 186/10 188/19 190/14 three-year [1) 222/14
swabbing [2] 40/7 119/10 193/18 193/21 193/22 199/19 206/18 through (70] 11 /9 27/24 32/8 32/13
swabs [5) 25/19 38/14 86/5 86/17 86/18 234/9 33/14 44/20 44/23 45/16 47/18 48/2
sworn [6] 5/23 40/19 88/18 130/15 test [30] 161/6 163/3 164/19 166/6 54/19 55/16 56/18 57/18 67/19 71/7
181/20 219/20 166/7 189/14 190/5 195/5 195/9 195/20 71/10 71/16 71/19 72/4 72/15 73/20
svstem r21 52/12 135/17 198/8 198/23 199/3 199/20 199/21 75/14 75/18 76/4 76/5 7619 76/17 76/18
199/22 201 /16 208/16 209/11 209/15 77/19 78/15 78/20 83/4 84/1 84/22 85/1
T 209/16 209/22 209/23 210/11 213/11 85/2 90/5 103/18 108/14 109/24 137/9
T'[1]4/1 213/21213/25216/5 235/4 237/4 142/5 146/16147/4 149/1 149/3149/10
T-y-s-o-n [1] 6/1 test-fire [4] 198/8 199/22 201/16 213/25 155/21 156/9 156/19 156/20 157/19
table (6] 46/19 53/5 53/11 138/17 179/8 test-fired [7] 195/5 195/9 195/20 199/20 158/6 159/3 159/9 159/10 163/1 176/6
223/21 199/21209/16213/21 185/7 195/15 202/8 205/2 207/12 208/2
tag [2] 27/17 65/19 test-firing [3] 189/14 190/5 199/3 217/12 240/3 240/7 247/20 247/24
tagged [1] 98/11 test-firings [1] 213/11 throughout [6] 19/3 19/9 24/21 50/11
tags [2] 81 /5 152/16 tested [1 ) 241 /14 50/12 55/23
taken [38] 7/22 15/18 17/20 19/23 20/15 testifying [4] 35/20 68/22 167/17 248/4 thunder [1) 153/19
22/10 22/12 51 /12 52/7 59/1 63/8 64/6 testimony [4] 103/19 130/9 214/22 Tim [1] 66/5
72/18 73/20 74/12 77/20 84/8 84/11 216/10 times [15) 31 /12 34/2 38/9 38/16 38/17
84/12 91 /17 98/4 98/13 106/8 106/12 testing [5] 84/24 87/8 117/1 159/21 41/12 76/10 89/24147/12 167/24
107/6 122/12 124/5128/12 128/14 229/5 174/22 175/20 175/24 187/21 187/24
137/10 147/3149/17 178/1 4 188/14 tests [1 J 222/11 tiny [1] 229/23
196/1 197/9 231/10 250/9 Texas [3] 134/9 134/13 134/14 tip [5] 26/21 26/22 26/22 27/1 27/3
talking [5] 118/25154/2171/12194/1 texture [1] 143/4 tire [9) 44/11 80/14 80/16 148/6 148/7
225/25 That'd [1] 31/21 154/13 172/10 172/19 172/24
tall [1] 148/21 That's' [1] 173/20 tires [5] 55/8 138/24 153/14 172/2
tank [3] 154/25 202/5 202/13 themselves [4] 60/11 112/9 143/11 242/13
tap [1 J 158/4 180/24 title [1] 47/6
tape [4] 74/6 245/3 245/8 245/10 theory [1] 185/13 today [6] 18/14 93/4 127/3 129/17 221 /8
taped [1] 74/3 thereafter [5] 8/10 25/7 25/7 6517 241/7
taper [1] 84/21 250/1 1 together [7] 21 /6 35/24 132/8 174/10
tarp [10] 30/17140/10 140/11156/20 they'd [2] 22/8 139/14 176/15 231/11 231/12
159/4 159/10 169/14 169/1 7 169/23 they'll [1 J 16/20 told [ 18] 22/4 33/19 39/15 77 /11 84/25
173/11 thin (1] 246/19 85/1 87 /22 125/24 126/1 126/9 136/13
tarps [4] 53/8 74/2 74/3 74/15 thinly [1] 53/15 137/13 161/8 166/16169/17169/21
task [6] 31/18 147/9 149/12 159/7 thinner [4] 59/15 59/21 82/2 162/11 173/10 225/22
176/21 223/14 third [8] 81/13 81/14 148/19149/19 Tom [5] 5/10137/14155/11159/4
tasks [1] 132/11 149/20 175/19 227/6 236/17 159/11
taught [2] 123/20 185/2 thirds [1 J 175/16 tomorrow [2] 247/15 249/13
team[30] 8/1310/1921/631/557/11 thirty [6] 108/19108/21 108/22 230/16 too [2] 33/3 245/9
57 /13 58/16 65/7 76/3 77/23 78/6 83/18 231/7 231/19 tool [8] 64/14 66/17 86/20 94/6 9417
86/9 87/11 89/21 90/15 97 /25 118/1 thirty-nine [1] 231 /19 94/9 94/13 185/17
119/7 119/18 120/25 131/4 131/5 thirty-one [3] 108/19 108/21 108/22 toolmark [14] 182/3 182/14 184/19
131/10 131/11 131/18 132/9132/10 thirty-seven [1] 231/7 185/4 185/9 185/16 186/1 186/4 186/24
136/24 158/7 this [339) 187/4 188/9 188/11 189/1 212/4
teams [5] 21/3 57/10 131/23 132/7 tho [1) 237/11 toolmarks [3) 182/6 184/24 190/8
174/9 THOMAS [5] 1/16 47/147/1347/21 tools [3) 53/12 144/4 154/13
tech [6] 7/1 28/16 29/3 29/15 89/8 67/14 top [20] 11 /5 14/24 15/2 16/15 36/6
123/19 Thomas' [1] 47/19 44/20 61/9 62/7 64/17 69/15 81/9
technical [5) 7/23 29/20 9016 108/13 thorough [5] 94/17 104/8 105/22 106/1 115/22 116/2 148/7 156/12 173/9
109/21 160/23 175/12 175/14 176/10 241/3
technically [3] 32/2 248/20 248/21 thoroughly [1] 61/13 total [1 J 183/5
technician [7] 6/22 8/11 25/14 84/22 thoroughness [1] 10/2 totality (1 J 46/18
90/4 90/5 117/4 though [6] 34/18 47/1 1 76/2 110/8 touch [3] 34/13 34/14 35/4
technicians [4] 29/9 45/19 76/16 107/7 171/20 179/17 touched [1] 30/10
technique [2] 239/4 245/7 thought[6] 36/11 76/21 83/18 169/4 touching [3] 27/1 34/18 34/20
techniques [3] 123/20 133/25 188/22 170/18 176/11 tow [2) 79/16 144/15
techs (1] 75/5 threatening [2] 136/7 143/22 towards (9) 39/3 91 /8 91/10 92/22 94/4
teeth [1 J 158/11 three [37) 8/16 27/2 33/12 35/18 46/9 9417 172/3 172/6 177/25
telephone (4] 47/25 48/7 48/25 49/1 47/23 132/1 148/21 150/25 155/10 toxicology [1] 220/14
television [1] 193/20 157/17 157/23 157/23165/5 165/5 Toyota [1] 106/15
telling [1) 116/12 165/5 165/9 174/14 174/19175/16 trace [17] 12/9 61 /25 124/10 142/21
tells [2] 118/9 234/14 177/23 180/8 185/10 185/21 186/14 143/14 170/17 170/23 171/6 171/24
ten [4] 140/7 141 /17 149/13 249/11 199/21 201 /24 201 /25 202/6 222/14 172/14 172/16 220/10 220/16 222/14
tender [3] 167/8 211 /13 240/4 227/3 233/19 235/1 236/13 236/19 222/16 233/24 244/22
tent [5] 62/23 63/25 65/5 65/5 114/8 241/16 243/3 traces (9) 160/5 233/2 233/4 233/15
tents [3] 80/6 80/6 81 /18 three-and-a-half [2] 148/21 202/6 235/9 237/23 237/24 239/10 239/16
Teresa [15] 10/7 14/12 25/9 26/15 three-and-a-half-foot [1] 157/23 track [4] 80/14 80/16 172/24 177/17
41 /13 52/2 87 /22 89/11 100/2 105/19 three-by-four [3] 165/5 165/9 180/8 tractor [2] 165/3 179/22
126/3126/11 126/25 127/10 135/12 three-by-three [1] 165/5 trailer (55] 8/24 9/2 9/5 9/1 1 9/18 12/12
Teresa's [5] 8/7 8/15 25/17 26/2 27/21 three-day [1) 185/21 20/17 21/7 21/10 31/5 31/8 31/20 31/22
122/19127/4131/15131/24132/1 van [6] 75/22 75/25 131 /20 138/1 145/6
T 137/2 141/4 141/6 150/24158/21 152/21
trailer... [42) 32/6 32/23 37/24 43/21 173/14 175/16 183/9 185/10 210/4 variety [3) 53/12 55/11 220/10
43/23 48/12 67 /4 69/18 69/19 69/22 211/12 225/3 227/24 229/12 230/7 various [4] 73/8 80/8 113/8 199/5
98/12 98/2199/5101/15 101/16101/17 235/1 236/13 236/16 236/16 236/20 varying [1) 166/24
101/18 101 /21 103/23 110/6 110/7 241 /16 248/1 248/6 vehicle [94) 8/7 8/9 8/15 25/17 25/20
110/13 110/15 110/24 117/15 121 /15 two-and-a-half [1] 185/1 0 2612 26/5 26/6 26/8 27/21 28/5 30/8
122/18 122/22 124/12 128/10 128/12 two-page [1 J 46/25 30/10 30/11 30/16 30/19 30/23 38/16
128/14 140/19 141/3 141/5 145/1 145/2 two-thirds [1] 175/16 38/22 38/24 44/11 58/3 59/8 60/11
145/7 145/15 151 /13 153/2 170/6 two-week (2) 90/5 109/23 60/13 79/9 79/12 79/22 79/23 80/19
trained (8) 12/22 28/15 102/19 117/4 two-year [1 J 109/18 80/2181/281/6 81/8 82/13 82/14 82/18
117/19 134/2 184/24186/16 type [26) 12/24 14/18 26/20 30/21 37 /25 135/24 13614 136/7 136/11 137/17
training (35] 6/22 6/25 7/4 716 8/11 73/16101/24113/23119/4120/19 137/20 138/8 138/10 139/1 139/16
28/20 28/24 28/25 29/14 29/16 29/17 124/9 147/24153/1161/23 213/15 139/22 140/9 140/11 140/18 140/20
29/19 44/23 44/25 90/3 109/22 109/23 213/19 213/20 220/7 222/15 224/11 140/24 14112 141/20 141/25 142/3
109/24 123/19 133/19 183/17 185/7 225/21 229/24 235/22 238/5 243/12 142/9 142/15 142/16 143/1143/6 143/7
189/2 206/8 211 /23 222/10 222/17 245/10 144/2 144/7 144/9 144/10 144/20
222/18 222/24 234/23 234/23 235/2 types [6) 41 /9 72/13 92/1 O 134/20 144/25 144/25145/7 145/10 151/10
235/10 235/19 244/23 222/20 222/21 151111 151/22163/10 163/25166/17
trainings [1] 223/7 typical (2) 92/8 92/18 168/22 168/24 169/11 169/16 170/1
transcribed [1 J 250/11 typically [7] 131/8131/10 131/15 131/22 170/8 171/16171/25172/5172/11
transcript (3] 2/2 250/8 250/12 131/25131/25 132/3 172/1417313173/9 176/22177/5
transcription (11 250/11 typo [1 J 183/20 179/19
transfer [2] 13/2 87/3 typos (1] 183/25 veh icles [7J 26/7 91/11 137/24137/25
transferred (4] 13/8 34/17 204/19 208/6 TYSON [15] 3/3 5/19 5/21 6/1 6/4 8/10 138/5 138/6 139/2
transmission [1] 144/16 9/2 11/16 17/4 19/1 20/21 23/12 24/4 verbal (1) 96/21
transport [5] 87/5 87/14 140/18 140/20 24/18 28/1 verified [1] 67/13
versus (31 176/6 183/24 238/18
140/24
transported (3] 73/23 143/6 144/7 u via [1] 112/13
trap [1] 202/12 ultimate [1] 140/18 vicinity [2) 42/22 42/24
traveling [1] 63/10 ultimately [9] 45/17 46/10 58/2 62/14 victim [1] 190/11
tread [1) 172/8 63/13 67/7 10119 113/2 194/22 videotape [4] 23/23 32/13 78/11 81 /16
treatment[2] 160/18 160/22 un [1] 120/17 videotaped [3) 57/24 78/4 81/25
tree [2] 138/21 196/2 unable [3] 168/19 173/6 224/6 videotaping [1] 58/4
trees [5] 138/21 139/5 139/8 139/12 unaware[1] 14/11 view [3] 44/14 79/6 95/5
139/13 unbolting [1] 144119 vigorously [2] 162/2 162/7
trial [3] 1/4 1/5 219/6 undergraduate [2] 184/7 221/23 Virg In ia [1] 46/15
triangular [2] 69/19 158/1 underneath [9] 60/11 63/10 65/3 82/24 virtually [1] 61/19
tried [10] 30/18 33/16 142/16 142/17 92/23 94/22 120/8 144/19 179/19 visible [3] 50/5 61124 86/24
165/21 166/5 166/7 172/7 175/11 241/7 underside [1) 60/12 visit (1] 212/4
trigger [7] 103/4 103/6 192/2 192/3 undertake [2] 156/22 216/5 visited [1) 124/17
192/13 20019 200/15 undertaken [3] 11 /22 159/15 159/17 visual [5] 69/7 71/12 160/23 244/1 O
tripod [2] 149/6 177/21 undertook (2] 214/5 215/17 244/12
Trooper [1] 6615 underway [1) 146/8 visually [10) 53/21 61/19 69/12 75/14
trowel [4] 158/1173/24174/1 174/2 underwent [1] 51 /15 161 /3 164/7 223/24 224/12 244/13
trowels (1 J 149/5 unit (12] 47/3 131/3 131/19 132/6 244/16
truck [6] 79/16 101110 141 /1 144/8 132/12 132/18 132/22 134/20 134/21 vitae {2] 183/16 248/1
144/15 144/24 145/22 220/20 235/2 volunteer r11 132/12
truth (1] 110/10
try [17] 7/24 24/15 37/18 81/14 86/24
units (1] 132/11
university (7] 13317 133/14 133/21 w
100/15 100/18 117/10 123/18 126/18 133/23 184/11 184/12 222/2 Wa [1] 214/12
171/25172/14175/2 175/10 175/13 unlatch (1] 39/5 waist [ 1J 53/5
231/11 244/24 unless [1] 135/2 wait [1] 126/19
trying [5) 21/18 33/1 1 42/21117/2 unsure [1] 10/9 waiting [3) 98/4 142/18 168/12
182/20 untrained [1] 206/9 walk [3] 9/6 13/25 57/18
tube (7] 112/1 2 112/16 194/2 199/24 unusual (3) 72/7 139/8 246/8 walk-through [1] 57/18
200/1 200/2 202/8 updates 111 28/23 walked [2] 81/15 92/6
tubular [3] 103/1 103/15 113/3 upper (5] 64/15 230/19 230/25 233/1 walking (3] 9/7 85/14 85/19
Tuesday [6] 146/18 146/19 146/22 236/7 walkway I1) 13/25
146/24 147/5 159/19 useful [2] 169/5 188/4 wall [14] 14/2 59/23 60/22 62/5 62/11
turn (4) 74/5 125/6 125/9 169/7 uses [2) 228/18 246/22 62/12 62/15 64/10 64/20 94/8 94/24
turned (14] 16/7 44/13 45/18 62/8 usual ( 1J 132/1 103/24 114/20 114/21
124/22 125/8150/16 150/19151/3 utilize (3] 52/25 112/25 234/18 walls (1) 94/25
156/16 159/2 164/4 177/9 212/17 utilized [1] 169/14 wander [1] 34/1
twenty [2] 96/22 96/23 utilizina r1 l 53/12 warrant (13] 8/23 19/22 20/2 20/10 21/5
twenty-eight [2] 96/22 96/23
twist [3] 74/5 205/7 207/4
v 21/1 0 31/8 37/2 56/10 56/14 56/21
62/18 146/8
twisted [2] 194/7 205/9 V3 [2] 48/16 67/9 warrants [1] 22/6
twists [1] 207/17 vacuum [6] 101/16 104/7 123/9 123111 washed [1] 179/3
two [52] 15/4 15/5 16/14 22/5 27/2 34/2 123/13 124/2 watch (4] 12/4 30/7 32/10 33/24
38/17 46/25 48/22 52/14 52/15 57/10 Valley [4] 29/15 90/6 101/24 109/23 watching [2] 14/7 79/18
6617 73/25 82/21 89/5 90/5 91 /11 91111 value [7] 34/1 O 34/20 55/1 63/18 8417 water [13] 26/22 26/25 27/3 76/20 76/24
101 /23 109/18 109/23 110/13 110/15 92/3 178/2 76/25 7712 138/2 138/3 202/5 202/9
w 201/20 237/5
1 - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - iwork (23) 16/2 31/16 42/23 60/6 60/12
water... [2] 202/10 202/13 109/10 126/19 127/6 130/23 134/4
Waukegan [1] 133/24 134/14134/17146/11163/1175/4
weak [1] 162/21 175/10 183/17 186/4 186/6 186/12
weapon [56] 16/23 16/25 103/9 128/21 186/20 188/1 224/5
128/25185/17190/6190/11190/18 workbench [1] 59/21
190/19191/6 191n 191/19 191/22 worked (13] 78/17130/24 133/23
191/23191/24 192/18 192/23193/7 133/24134/9 146/16 146/17 146/18
193/8 193/11 193/11 193/15 193/17 149/10 158/20 177/24 186/6 186/22
193/24 194/2 194/15 194/18 194/25 working (9] 53n 58/15 102/16 133/20
195/14 198/1198/9198/10 198/12 135/23161/18 161/19192/1 198/15
198/17 198/24 199/6 199/6 199/9 works [3] 100/4 100/17 102121
199/14 199/18 199/20 199/23 200/4 wrap [1] 159/14
200/8 200/9 200/14 200/17 200/21 wrap-up [1] 159/14
20117 202/1 202/12 203/24 208/16 wrapped [2] 147/25 158/23
208/17 218/3 wrecker [6] 141/1 141/5 141/9 142/18
weapons [8) 51/25102/20111/1185/23 144/8145/15
192/11 199/13 200/12 202/9 writer [1] 24/13
wear[1] 12/10 writing [1) 198/11
wearing [2] 37/9113/16 wrote [5] 27/18199/5 210/20 241/4
weather [9) 30/11 136/7 136/8 139/21 i-:2: . .;4'""'"1;. ;: /5_____________
139/22 140/4 140/13 143/22 169/7
Wednesday [2] 21/12 146/20 x
week [17) 19/3 19/9 23/18 23/21 29/15 x-ray [6) 229/24 230/11 230/23 231 /18
29/17 29/21 42/16 51 /1 54/12 73/2 90/5 232/17 236/10
109/23 160/15185/20 188/21 212/1 x-ravs r41 228/18 229/22 230/7 231/10
week-long [3] 29/15 29/17 188/21 y
weighed [1) 208/9 1---- - - - - - - - - - - - i
weight (3] 212/25 213/4 216/23 yard [13] 7/16 43/14 51/9 135/25137/4
weights [1] 217/2 137/23141/1 146/7 146/13 146/15
welcome [1] 247/5 147/3 151/8 153/5
Wendy (1) 21/9 year (7] 109/16109/18 167/23 167/24
west [5] 62/15 92/9 92/11 92/15 93/19 222/14 235/1 235/1
whatnot [1] 148/2 year-and-a-half [2] 167/23 167/24
whatsoever [1] 217/16 years [11] 6/12 89/4 89/5 109/11 167/22
wheel [3] 44/11 144/10 148n 183/22 187/25 189/5 220/6 220/23
wheels [4) 60/9 61/2 144/11 144/22 222/18
Whereas [1) 148/15 yellow [4] 59/10 81/5 81/17 81 /19
Wherein [3) 7/22 100/13 126/24 Yep [1] 217/3
white [3] 62/25 80/16 83/14 vourselves r1l 247/17
whoever [1] 173/3
whole [4] 15/24 23/25 87/1 220/17
z
wide [2] 55/11 202/7 Z-h-a-n-g [1] 136/22
Wiegert [22] 18/25 22/4 24/25 25/18 zero [1) 156/12
27 /11 32/5 42/3 52/20 55/25 63/15 Zhang [3) 136/22 145/4 145/18
104/1 104/18 108/6 137/15 154/5 zinc [1) 242/23
183/14 196/15 197/16 203/9 210/15 zip [1) 152/16
221/14 225/9 Ziplock [1] 227/3
Wiegert's [2] 20/12 65/14 zipper [1] 55/9
WILLIAM [7] 3/3 4/3 5/21 6/1 181/16 Zire [2) 47/25 67/11
181/18 181/23 zoom [1] 50/7
windows [1] 155/1 zoomed [4) 91/24155/4 231/22 232/13
wire [1) 138/25 zoomed-in [2] 231 /22 232/13
wires [1] 148/4
WISCONSIN [21] 1/1 1/31/15 1/17 1/19
4112 45112 52/8 54/8 65/8 109120 133n
133/14 182/4 182/5 184/5 187/14 212/9
222/2 250/1 250/6
Wisconsin-Parkside [1] 133n
wish [1] 240/15
wished [1] nn
without [4] 45/3 69n 112124127/8
witness [21] 5/17 5/22 16/21 40/12
40/18 68/6 88/17 108/15 126/8 129/18
130/14 130/18 167/9 181 /11 181 /19
211/13 218/22 219/15 219/19 225/18
240/4
witnesses [9) 3/2 4/2 129/17 130/8
24716 248/1 248/4 248/22 248/24
wooden [4) 53/13 53/13 77/6 245/4
wording [1] 50/5
words [6] 97 /12 143/14 148/24 159/13
BRANCH 3
2
3
4
PLAINT IFF, JURY TRIAL
5 TRIAL DAY 3
6 vs. Case No . 06 CF 88
7 BRENDAN R. DASSEY ,
8 DEFENDANT .
10
DATE: APRIL 18 , 2007
11
BEFORE: HON. JEROME L . FOX
13 APPEARANCES:
14 KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
16 THOMAS J . FALLON
Special Prosecutor
18 NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
20 MARK R. FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
22 RAYMOND L . EDELSTEIN
Attorney at Law
Defendant
25 Appeared in person .
1
c PY
1 * * * * * * * *
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESSES PAGE
3
KAYLA AVERY
4
5
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 16-22
6
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 22
7
8 SHERRY CULHANE
9 Direct Examinat i on by ATTORNEY GAHN 22-77
10 Cross-Exami nation by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 77-1 0 3
11 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY GAHN 103-1 16
12 Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 117-123
13
NICK STAHLKE
14
Direct Examination by ATTORNEY GAHN 123-143
15
Cross -Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 143-163
16
Redirect Examinat ion by ATTORNEY GAHN 163-1 65
17
Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 165
18
19 SUSAN BRANDT
22 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 172
23
24
25
3
1 CONT'D INDEX
2 WITNESSES PAGE
3
JODI STACHOWSKI
4
5
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 180
6
7 THOMAS STURDIVANT
8 Direct Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 181- 200
9 Cross-Examination b y ATTORNEY FREMGEN 200-206
10
DR. DONALD SIMLEY, II
11
12
14 141-161 76 77
15 1 62 232 233
16 163 12 16 16
17 164 27 76 77
18 165-167 165 166
19 168-174 200 200
20 175 233 233
21 176-182 232 233
22
23
24
25
4
1 (Reconvened at 9:02 a . m. )
2 THE COURT : Morning , ladies and gentlemen ,
3 counsel. Uh, this is State of Wisconsin vs . Brendan
4 Dassey, 06 CF 88 . Appearances , please .
5 ATTORNEY FALLON : Morning , Your Honor .
6 May it please the Court, the State continues in
7 its appearance by Special Prosecutors Ken Kratz,
8 Tom Fallon, Norm Gahn .
10 appears with Attorney Ray Edelstein . Brendan
11 Dassey appears in person .
12 THE COURT: All right . Uh , members of the
13 prosecution , are we ready to go?
14 ATTORNEY FALLON : We are .
15 THE COURT : Okay .
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: State
17 THE COURT: Proceed.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON : St ate will call its
19 first witnes s , Kayla Avery .
20 THE CLERK : Please raise your right
21 hand .
22 KAYLA AVERY,
23 called as a witness herein , having been first dul y
25 THE CLERK : Pl ease be seated . Please state
5
2 THE WI TNESS : Kayla Avery , A-v -e-r-y.
5 Q Good morning . How old are you, Kayla?
6 A Fifteen .
7 Q All right. And do you go to school?
8 A Yes.
9 Q What school do you go to?
10 A Mishicot . Mishicot High School .
11 Q All right . And what grade are you in there?
12 A Ninth .
13 Q All right . And would you tell us who your morn
14 and dad are?
15 A Earl and Candy Avery .
16 Q Okay. Um, are you related to Brendan Dassey?
17 A Yes .
18 Q And, uh, how are you related to Brendan?
19 A Urn, well , we' re first -- we're first cous -- we're
20 first cousins , and through my dad is -- my dad is
21 Barbara's brother , and Brendan's Barbara's son .
22 Q Okay. Very good . Now, um , while you're growing
23 up, were you and Brendan close or good friends?
24 A Um, kind of. Not really.
25 Q All right . Do you like Brendan?
6
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Do you care about him a great deal?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. Um, how often would you see Brendan on a
5 normal -- at a normal time?
6 A Um, prob -- probably once a week probably.
7 Q Okay. All right. Now, thinking about the time,
8 from Halloween on October 31, 2005, until, say,
9 the end of February , 2006, about four-month
10 period, did you notice any changes in Brendan?
11 A Kind of. Yeah .
12 Q All right. Tell us about the changes that you
13 saw?
14 A It looked like he was losing weight and he was a
15 little bit more upset .
16 Q All right. You're -- you're -- you're going to
17 have to put that mike a little bit closer so that
18 everybody can hear, all right? All right. Thank
19 you . Um, why was that different from what you
20 had seen before that?
21 A Um, he really wasn't acting the same.
22 Q Okay. Had he -- Before that, was he more of a
23 happy-go- lucky type of boy?
24 A Kind of . Yeah.
25 Q Was he pretty friendly to you?
7
1 A Yeah .
2 Q All right . And as far as you could te l l, did he
3 seem to be friendly to other people?
4 A Uh, yeah.
5 Q All right. But during this four-month period, is
6 that what changed?
7 A Um, kind of . He was still nice to people.
8 Q All right. But was he as outgoing as he was
9 before?
10 A Kind of. Not reall y.
11 Q Not really. Okay. All right. I want to direct
12 your attention to a time in December of 2005.
13 Did you have a conversation with Brendan about
14 Teresa Halbach?
15 A Kind of. Yeah .
16 Q All right . Would you tell us about that
17 conversation with Brendan?
18 A Well, um -- Well, not in December . November.

19 Q Okay . Tel l us about it?
20 A In November, um, he was -- he was, um, sitting in our
21 hallway, and, um, he was just in there . One of my

22 friends looked out the door, because we were having a
23 birthday party, and he came over, um, and he -- he
24 was -- my friend just looked out the door and seen
25 him crying, and then she came to me. And then I went
8
1 out there by him, and I asked him what was wrong, and
2 all he did is shrugged his shoulders.
3 Q Okay. And then what did you ask?
4 A And then I asked him if it was about the Steven
5 thing .
6 Q All right.
7 A And he shrugged his shoulders, and I was, like , you
8 know you can -- you know you can ta lk to me, and then
9 I just went back inside my room .
10 Q All right. And whose birthday party was this?
11 A My cousin , Ashley's.
12 Q All right. And what's Ashley's last name?
13 A Cheva lier.
14 Q Okay. And where was the birthday party being
15 held?
16 A My house.
17 Q All right. Now, when is her birthday? Is it

18 Is it February? Or January? Or when is her
19 birthday?
20 A I think it 's February .
21 Q All right. Now, was the party actually on her,
22 um, birthday, or a day or two before or after?

23 Do you remember ?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay. Now, you asked Brendan about, did it have
9
1 something to do with this "Steven thing". Tell
2 us about the conversation you had with Brendan
3 regarding Steven to wh ich you referred?
4 A We didn't have a conversation about it.
5 Q All right. Didn't you tell your counselors at
6 school about a conversation you had with Brendan?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q All right. And you told Officers Wiegert and
9 Fassbender about that convers ation as well;
10 right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. Tell us what you told them?
13 A I told them that he was crying on the steps and stuff
14 like that .
15 Q All right . What -- What about the conversation
16 regarding a fire? Tell us about that?
17 A That on, I think it was October 31 , uh, we went down
18 by my grandma's for trick or treating , and on the way
19 back, I asked my mom if we could go down to the
20 bonfire because I seen it, and my mom said, no .
21 Q All right. In terms of your conversation with
22 your counselors, the one you told Investigator
23 Wiegert and Fassbender about -- these two guys
24 right here -- You recognize those two guys?
10
1 Q Yes?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Yes. Okay. Did you tell -- You told them about
4 a conversation you had with Brendan about --
5 about that bonfire and what was in the bonfire .
6 Tell us about that?
7 A I really don ' t remember .
8 Q All right . Now, Kayla, didn't you tell the
9 officers that Brendan told you he had seen body
10 parts in a fire?
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I ' d object at
12 this point. I think , first, the State should
13 probably try to refresh recollection (inaudible . )
14 THE REPORTER: Mr. Fremgen, can you
15 speak up, please?
16 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Oh, I'm sorry.
17 Judge , my -- my argument is simply that I think
18 the State should try to refresh recollection with
19 whatever documents they ' re referring to , as far
20 as the statement , before they go directly to, I
21 think , the efforts they're going to now .
23 ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, it is our
24 witness to, uh, pursue -- proceed as we feel
25 appropriate under the circumstances. I 'm asking
11
1 her , directly . I mean , quite frankly , if one is
2 to impeach a witness, one must give the witness,
3 first , an opportuni ty .
4 THE COURT : Yeah. I ' m going to overru le
5 the objection. You may go on .
6 ATTORNEY FALLON : All right .
7 Q (By Attorney Fallon) What did -- What did you
8 report telling the officers tha t Brendan told you
9 about the fi re?
10 A I rea lly can't remember.
11 Q All right . Did you give the officers a
12 statement?
13 A Uh, yeah .
14 Q All righ t .
15 (Exhibit No . 163 marked for identification . )
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: May I approach?
17 THE COURT : You may.
18 Q (By Attorney Fallon) Kayla , I'm showing you what
19 has been marked for identification as this
20 Exhibit 163 . Would you hold that for me , please?
21 All right. I'm going to ta ke my seat here and
22 ask some q uestions . Do you recognize that
23 exhibit ?
24 A (No verbal response . )
25 Q Is that a yes?
12
1 THE COURT : You have
2 THE WITNESS : Yes.
3 THE COURT : -- to answer out loud.
4 THE WITNESS : Yes .
5 Q (By Attorney Fallon ) All right . And is that the
6 statement that you gave to Officers, um,
7 Fassbender and Wiegert?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right. Would you take a moment to read that
10 statement to yourself, please? Have you finished
11 reading it?
12 A Yes.
13 Q I'm going to have Mr . Kratz take the statement .
14 Okay . Does reviewing that statement help you
15 remember?
16 A Yes.
17 Q All right . What did Brendan tell you about the
18 fire? You'll have to pull the microphone a
19 little closer so we can hear you.
20 A He didn't tell me anything . I I kind of made up
21 the statement. And I'm sorry .
22 Q All right. What did you make up? Tell us what
23 you said you made up?
24 A That he seen body parts in there . I didn't -- He
25 didn't see it . I -- He didn't tell me anything like
13
1 that , or he didn't see Teresa's body or anything like
2 that .
3 Q You also told the officers that Brendan told you
4 he saw Teresa alive and pinned up, didn't you?
5 A Yes .
6 Q All right . And you love Brendan ; right?
7 A Yes . Very much.
8 Q And you wouldn't tell -- You wouldn' t say
9 anything like that to get him in trouble, would
10 you?
11 A No. Not really .
12 Q All right. But yet you told the officers that
13 those were the conversations you had with
14 Brendan; isn't that right?
15 A Yes .
16 Q All right . You told -- You told the officers
17 that Brendan told you he had seen Teresa pinned
18 up in Steven's trailer, didn't you?
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Ob -- Object. I
20 don't believe that was what the statement
21 actually says.
22 ATTORNEY FALLON: There's
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And if I could be
24 heard.
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: There's additional
14
1 statements , Counsel , as you well know.
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Referring to the
3 statement - - I f we ' r e referring to the statement
4 that was just u sed t o ref r esh r eco l lection , I
5 don ' t believe that ' s e x actly what it says .
6 THE COURT : Well , why don ' t you restate the
7 question , Mr . Fallon .
8 ATTORNEY FALLON : All right . I'll
9 res t ate the quest ion .
10 Q (By Attorney Fallon) First of all , um , Kayla , so
11 that we're clear , t h e officers came and
12 interviewed yo u, uh , the end of February; right?
13 A Yes .
14 Q All right . And you h ad a long conversation with
15 him , your mom, and you r dad ; right?
16 A Yes .
17 Q Okay . And in the written statement that I just
18 showed you, yo u reported that Bren dan told you h e
19 had seen body parts i n the fire on Halloween ;
20 right?
21 A Yes. But that ' s not true .
22 Q All right . And you also told the officers in a
23 separate conversation t h at day that you had
24 seen - - or tha t Brend an had seen Teresa alive in
25 Steven ' s trailer?
15
1 A Yes .
2 Q All right. And that she was pinned up in a
3 chair?
4 A Yes. But that's not true.
5 Q All right . Now, you're saying today you made
6 that up?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. So you're telling us you made
9 something up to get Br endan into trouble?
10 A Not really. I was just really confused about
11 everything.
12 ATTORNEY FALLON : No further questions
13 for this witness. And to the extent, solely that
14 Exhibit 163 was referred to for refreshment and
15 impeachment, only that portion we seek admission.
16 THE COURT : All right. Any objection to
17 that?
18 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: With that condition ,
19 no.
20 THE COURT: All right . It's received .
21 Cross.
24 Q You indicated that you would often see Brendan
25 once a week?
16
1 A Yes .
2 Q Did you guys hang out and do stuff together?
3 A No. When I went over there, we played video games
4 and stuff, when I went inside his room, and he would
5 be playing them.
6 Q Would it be when your families got together you'd
7 see them him then?
8 A Normally, when we went over t h ere.
9 Q You would go over there?
10 A (No verbal response .)
11 Q Okay . Would you -- Would you also be there with
12 Blaine , his brother?
13 A Yes .
14 Q And the other brothers? Bobby?
15 A Yes . Sometimes .
16 Q Or Bryan?
17 A Yes .
18 Q You indicated that one of the -- something that
19 concerned you was Brendan was losing weight;
20 right?
21 A Yes .
22 Q And he was a little more upset?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did he sometimes walk around being upset?
25 A Kind of. Yes.
17
1 Q Just seemed to you that it was a li ttle more than
2 normal?
3 A Yes .
4 Q Did Now, did you know whether or not Brendan
5 had a girlfr iend at that t ime?
6 A At the time , afte r he was kind of on the steps , I
7 found out t ha t he had a girlfriend . Yes .
8 Q Do you know what happened between him and h i s
9 girlfriend?
10 A Um, no . I hea rd tha t t he y broke up, but I don't know
11 if that was true or not.
12 Q Don't know t hat, though?
13 A Yes .
14 Q At that birthday party, you tried to ta lk wi th
15 Brendan; right?
16 A Yes .
17 Q And you sat down with Brendan on the stairs?
18 A Yes .
19 Q And tried to get him to open up to you?
20 A Yes .
21 Q But all he did was shrug his shoulders?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And then you just wa lked away t hen?
24 A Yes .
25 Q Now, Mr. Fallon was aski ng you to look at a -- a
18
1 statement that you wrote up with two, uh -- well,
2 one investigator and -- and one special agent
3 from the Department of Criminal Investigations.
4 Do you remember that? You just saw it a minute
5 ago?
6 A Yes .
7 Q You just said that you made that up?
8 A Yes .
9 Q So when you were talking to the officer - - You
10 understand that they're police officers; right?
11 A Yes .
12 Q Okay . So you were lying to the police officer?
13 A Yes .
14 Q Why did you lie?
15 A I was confused and I didn't know what to do.
16 Q Who were you confused about?
17 A I don 't know. Everything.
18 Q Did -- Now, at the time you spoke to the
19 officers, that was in late February; is that
20 right? Of 2006?
21 A I -- Yes, I think so.
22 Q Couple weeks before Brendan was arrested; right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Around that time?
25 A Yes .
19
1 Q You ' d heard some of t he news t h at -- about what
2 happened to Teresa Halbach?
3 A Yes .
4 Q It was -- It was kind o f hard to mi s s some of
5 tha t; right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you know about t hat burn pit behind Steven's
8 garage?
9 A Yes. I heard it o n t he news .
10 Q Read it i n the news?
11 A Yes .
12 Q Did you read that t hey found body parts in the --
13 the burn pit, too?
14 A Yes .
15 Q What -- When you f irs t spoke to the officers ,
16 and -- and, again , in -- sometime in late
17 February of 2006 , did they come there to talk to
18 you a bout Brendan?
19 A I t hi n k . I c a n ' t r emember , but I th i nk - - I think
20 so .
21 Q I -- I don ' t want you to tell us other things
22 that you said to the officers , okay? But could
23 it have been t h ey came t o tal k to you a b out
24 Steven ?
25 A Yes .
20
1 Q Okay. And then Brendan's name came up?
2 A Yes .
3 Q When they spoke to you , did they -- let's -- ask
4 you, specifically, about the burn pit and the
5 body parts?
6 A Yes .
7 Q So when you say that you -- you told them you saw
8 body parts, it was in response to a question they
9 asked you about that?
10 A Yes .
11 Q When you say that Teresa was pinned up in a
12 chair, where did you hear that?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Did someone tell you that?
15 A Probably, yeah. I don't remember.
16 Q Don't remember where it came from?
17 A Yes.
18 Q But you remember the body parts and burn pit came
19 from reading the news or TV?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, at this point in time Steven had already
22 been arrested; right?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Okay . And he was already charged with the -- the
25 murder of Teresa Halbach ; right?
21
1 A I think so. I don ' t know.
2 Q You don't remember?
3 A Yes .
4 Q This was several months a fter he was arrested
5 though ; right?
6 A I think so. Yes .
7 Q Thank you, Kayla.
8 THE COURT : Redirect?
9 ATTORNEY FALLON : Yes. One question .
12 Q Kayla, isn't it true the officers came to talk to
13 you because of what you told the counselors at
14 school? They asked you about what you told the
15 counselors?
16 A I don ' t know . I can ' t remember.
17 Q Are you confused?
18 A Right now? Yes .
19 ATTORNEY FALLON : No fu rther questions .
20 THE COURT : All right . You may step down .
21 Next witness, Counsel?
22 ATTORNEY GAHN: Uh, the Sta te would call
23 Sherry Culhane to the stand .
25 SHERRY CULHANE,
22
2 sworn , was examined and testified as follows :
4 your name and spell your las t name for the record .
5 THE WITNESS: Sherry Culhane ,
6 C-u-1-h-a-n-e .
8 BY ATTORNEY GAHN :
9 Q And, Ms . Culhane, what is your occupation?
10 A I work as a forensic scientist in the Wisconsin State
11 Crime Laboratory i n Madison, Wisconsin .
12 Q And how long have you been employed, uh, at the
13 State Crime Lab in Madison?
14 A Twenty-three years .
15 Q And what are your duties and responsibilities at
16 the Crime Lab?
17 A I work in the DNA section of the Crime Lab , so I'm
18 responsible for examining physical evidence, uh,
19 usually things like clothing , bedding , objects , uh,
20 samples that are taken from an alleged crime scene or
21 an alleged victim, for the presence of biological

22 material. We attempt to identify that biological
23 material, and then, uh , dev elop a DNA profile from
24 that .
25 We are also submitted DNA profiles from
23
1 standard samples from specific individuals , and
2 we also develop DNA profiles from those samples .
3 And we basically compare the two to see if an
4 individual could or could not be the source of
5 the questioned evidence sample.
6 Q And do you, yourself , have any additional duties
7 at the Crime Lab?
8 A Yes, I do. I'm the technical unit leader in the
9 section, which , uh , means that I'm also responsible
10 for additional duties such as training new analysts
11 in -- in our section , I ' m responsible for overseeing
12 the quality control program, um, make sure any
13 technical issues that are resolved in this section .
14 I'm responsible for setting up new equipment, new
15 procedures, anything that are brought online, uh,
16 those are all under my responsibility .
17 Q Ms. Culhane , before I ask you the next question,
18 could you maybe pull t he microphone just a little
19 closer to you?
20 A Okay .
21 Q Thank you. Urn, is your full workday devoted to,
22 urn, DNA analysis or testing?

23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q And how long have you been doing DNA testing at
25 the Crime Lab in Madison?
24
1 A Um, since 1996.
2 Q And approximately how many DNA tests have you,
3 yourself, performed or run?
4 A Uh, conservative answer for myself would be at least
5 five thousand .
6 Q And what education do you have that qualifies you
7 to, um, work in the area of DNA testing?
8 A I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in biology . Urn,
9 as I said, we went online in 1994 with DNA testing,
10 and I went through a -- a about a year-long
11 training program, um, in the laboratory under t he
12 direction of my supervisor .
13 Uh, the training program consisted of
14 lectures, uh, running many , many samples through
15 the system, um, uh , proficiency tests, competency
16 tests, um, and since that time I've also, uh,
17 a t tended many schools and workshops specifica lly
18 related to DNA testing or forensic applications,
19 and also interpretations.
20 I've also taken a statistics course
21 online and a molecular biology course and
22 advanced chemistry class.
23 Q Do you attend meetings or seminars on DNA
24 technology?
25 A Yes, I do.
25
1 Q And do you keep up-to-date and read the
2 scientific literature on DNA technology?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q And why i s it that you , urn, attend meetings and
5 seminars and keep up-to-date wi th the literature?
6 A Uh, meetings and seminars are -- are really good
7 venue to be able to tal k to other individuals who are
8 in crime labs, who are doing the same type of
9 testi ng, individuals who are testing new procedures,
10 new types of equipment. Most of these meetings have
11 representatives from , um, t he instruments that we use
12 or the kits that we us e , and so these meetings allow
13 us to exchange a lot of information .
14 Uh, research i s being done, um, all of

15 that information we can find i n scientific
16 journals that we have access to in the

17 laboratory .
18 Q Have you testified in court before today?

19 A Yes, I have .
20 Q Approximately how many times?
21 A Ninety-two.
22 Q Have you ever been qual ified as an expert in DNA
23 testi ng?
24 A Yes .
25 Q And approximately how many times?
26
1 A About 32 times .
2 Q Have you ever been rejected as an expert in DNA
3 technology ?
4 A No.
5 (Exhibi t No . 16 4 marked for identification . )
6 Q I 'm going to ask Mr. Kratz to hand you what has
7 been marked as Exhibit 164. Just ask you to
8 identify that ?
9 A This i s a copy of my, uh, curriculum vitae. It has
10 all of my qualifications, and all the classes , and ,
11 uh, educational , uh, seminars that I've attended .
12 Q Okay . And , basically , that summarizes what you
13 talked about just up until now?
14 A Yes .
15 Q Okay . Um, what I ' d like to do now is take a few
16 moments, and I'd li ke you to explain to the
17 jurors exactly what DNA, uh , stands for , and what
18 it is , and we 've, um, prepared a PowerPoint
19 demonstration that you h ave see n; correct?
20 A Yes .
21 Q And would that assist you in , um , explaining DNA
22 and its properties to the jury?
23 A Yes , it will.
24 Q Um , we put up our first slide, and you can -- Uh,
25 and , also , do you have a , um - - a laser pointer
27
1 in t he event that you may need one?
2 A No, I don't .
3 Q We're going to provide you with that, too , and
4 please feel free to use that if you need to . So
5 could you start with telling the jury, um, what
6 DNA stands for and what it is?
7 A DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid, um, and ,
8 basically, it's the information storage system of the
9 cell . Um, you can see -- Probably easier to see
10 r ight here, um, this is a very small segment of DNA .
11 It's a 3-D model of the DNA. And it illustrates the
12 fact that DNA is made up of, um, a series of smaller
13 units that are strung together in a specific order.
14 That order is what determines the i n formation and how
15 that information is stored in the DNA.
16 Q And could you, um, explain to the jurors some of
17 the characteristics about DNA and how it 's
18 inher ited?
19 A Yes . The easiest way to think of DNA is to compare
20 it to a blueprint. Um, just like when you build a
21 house, all the information that you need to build a
22 house is contained in the blueprint . All the
23 directions, all the materials, everything you need .
24 DNA is exactly the same , only on a cellular level .
25 So all of the information that your body needs to
28
1 produce proteins, enzymes, everything to basically
2 function, all that information is contained in your
3 DNA .
4 Your DNA directs cellular development .
5 And if you'l l look at this , um, schematic here ,
6 um, the information is stored in specific regions
7 we refer to as genes . DNA directs development of
8 your cells all the way from the beginning of
9 conception all the way through your adult life.
10 So things like your eye color, hair
11 color, the shape of your face , all of those are
12 characteristics that are determined by your
13 genes .
14 In a forensic set ting, we're more
15 interested in the areas of DNA that are not
16 connected to a functional gene . Um, scientists
17 really don't know what their function is, but
18 they're there and there ' s a lot of va r iation
19 within the popu lation . So in the forensic
20 community, we're looking at regions of DNA that
21 don't really do anything , and , um, that's where
22 we're we're most interested.
23 DNA's also inherited from your
24 biological parents . You inherit SO percent from
25 your mother and 50 percent from your father . And
29
1 you , in return , uh, pass on 50 percent of your
2 DNA to your offspring.
3 Q How many analysts are there at the Crime Lab in
4 Madison that are performing DNA testing?
5 A Currently , we have, uh, about ten. Over the course
6 of years, we've had 10 to 12 people.
7 Q Since you began doing DNA testing at the Madison
8 Crime Lab , can you estimate approximately how
9 many samples of evidence have been analyzed, uh,
10 for DNA testing?
11 A A conservative answer would be at least 60 , 000 over
12 the course of the years.
13 Q And do you and your laboratory undergo
14 proficiency test ing?
15 A Yes, we do.
16 Q And what is that?
17 A Proficiency testing , um, in our laboratory -- We
18 purchase proficiency tests from an outside private
19 company . Proficiency tests are designed to mimmick
20 forensic samples. So we treat them just like we do a
21 case. They come into the lab from this private
22 company , and we examine them just like we would a
23 case . The proficiency tests are meant to te st the
24 laboratory system, as well as the individual
25 analysts .
30
1 We, uh, examine these just like we do
2 evidence . We developed DNA profiles from them,
3 and we report those DNA profiles back to the
4 company that we purchased them from.
5 Q And have you passed all of your proficiency
6 tests?
7 A Yes .
8 Q And, um, is your Madison Crime Laboratory hold
9 any certificates or accreditat ion?
10 A Yes . We are an accredited laboratory system . Um, we
11 hold a certificate of accreditation from ASCLD, which
12 stands for American Society of Crime Lab Directors .
13 And it is a group of individuals that come into the
14 laboratory once every five years and audit the
15 laboratory um, every section of the laboratory .
16 Uh, they look at all of our procedures . And this ,
17 um, certificate is a wa rded and -- and re-evaluated
18 once every five years .
19 Q And what does that mean to be accredited in the
20 forensic scientific community?
21 A Well, as I said, it ' s a -- part of the process of
22 being accredited is to be audited . And what that
23 means is you have a group of probably 10 to 15 people
24 who come into the lab , they look at everything from
25 security , they check , uh , evidence handling
31
1 procedures, how we take i n evidence, how we store the
2 evidence .
3 Um, and then specific audi tors are
4 assigned to different s ections at the laboratory .
5 DNA usually has two to three auditors assigned to
6 DNA . They check the physical layout of the
7 laboratory , they check all of our validations of
8 our equipment , all of our quality cont rol . And,
9 in addition to t hat, they p ull, uh, case jackets
10 from probably 10 to 15 different cases from each
11 analyst, and analyze those to make sure that
12 we're following our own protocols , and that we're
13 making the correct interpretations .
14 It also checks, uh , educational
15 backgrounds of all our analysts to make sure
16 that -- that we are meeting all the requirements
17 that are necessary , that have been put forth by,
18 urn, the DAB , which is a -- a group of individuals
19 from t h e FBI that sets forth standards for these
20 audits .
21 Q And does your laboratory only perform DNA testing
22 for law enforcement or for the prosecution?
23 A Uh, by law, we perfo rm testing for autho rized
24 submitters. Authorized submitters would be district
25 attorney's offices , uh , coroner's offices, uh , police
32
1 agencies. Um, but we do any requests that come
2 through them .
3 Q Are you familiar with the Innocence Project at

4 the University of Wisconsin Law School in
5 Madison?
6 A Yes, I am.
7 Q And what is that, um, Innocence Project, briefly?
8 A My understanding, it is -- is that it's a group of,
9 um, law students that review post-conviction cases .
10 So they look at cases that have already been decided

11 in court. And they review these cases to see if
12 they 're appropriate for a new trial because of new
13 evidence, or new technology that was not available at
14 the time .
15 Q And do they ever request testing from your Crime

16 Laboratory?
17 A Yes .
18 Q And as a result of cases that you've tested,

19 post-conviction cases , have people ever been
20 freed from prison whom
21 A Yes.
22 Q -- have been wrongfully convicted?
24 Q And you do that work at your Crime Lab , also?
25 A Yes .
33
1 Q Um, I would like to now, uh, go back to the
2 PowerPoint and just ask -- ask you -- to you
3 would you describe to the jurors where DNA is
4 found?
5 A DNA can be fo und in all t he nucleated cells in your
6 body . Um, for our purposes, most -- If you'll look
7 at the slide here, most of the common types of
8 biological materials we're dealing with are blood,
9 semen, saliva, and hair . But any biol ogical
10 component of your body that has a nucleated cell has
11 the potential for DNA .
12 In the blood, it would be white blood
13 cells . Semen would be epithe lia l cells, skin
14 cells, and sperm sells. Saliva would be skin
15 cells . Um, all of these , um, types of biological
16 materials have a complete copy of your DNA . So
17 the -- the important fact to remember, especially
18 with forensics , is that, um, these questioned
19 biological samples that may be found on a victim,
20 alleged victim, or at an alleged crime scene , um,
21 have a particular DNA profile , and that profile
22 is the same as any other , um, nucleated cell in
23 that person ' s body .
24 Q Ms. Culhane, before I go any further, I'm going
25 to ask that , um, when you point something out
34
1 with the laser pointer, could you use t he --
2 A Sure .
3 Q -- big screen so that the defense can also see
4 what --
5 A Sure .
6 Q -- you're pointing to?
7 A I 'm sorry .
8 Q Thank you, ma'am. So, basically, um, the DNA in
9 one person's body, whatever tissue it comes from ,
10 is the same?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And, um, is it possible, uh , to make comparisons
13 of the DNA that you find in a person 's body,
14 whereve r it comes from, with, perhaps, samples
15 that are found at a crime scene?
16 A Ye s, it is.
17 Q And what allows you to do that?
18 A Uh, we can develop the DNA profile from the
19 questioned sample, and we can also develop a DNA
20 profile from the reference sample , or a standard
21 sample, that it ' s from a known individual, and
22 compare those profiles to see if they are consistent
23 with one another or not.
24 Q And in order to test t hes e biological fluids ,
25 what , um, testing procedure do you follow at the
35
1 Crime Lab?
2 A Currently, the type of technology that we're using is
3 referred to as DNA : STR typing . Urn, and this is what
4 most -- as far as I understand, what most crime labs
5 in the country are using, this type of technology for
6 typing .
7 Q And, urn, basically, and -- and briefly, what is
8 the, urn, DNA: STR method of typing?
9 A STR typing i s a PCR-based system that allows us to
10 specifically arnplif y or make a whole lot of copies of
11 specific regions of DNA.
12 If you look at the , uh, photograph here ,

13 there are target regions that -- that it are
14 interspersed thr oughout your DNA. These ta r get
15 regions we refer to as STR or genetic markers.
16 When we develop a DNA profile, we

17 actually look at 15 different target regions of
18 DNA throughout the - - a person's entire DNA. So
19 our profile is developed from 15 different target
20 locations . We do thi s to the evidence sample as
21 well as the reference sample , and we basically
22 compare the two .
23 Q So, again , if you were to develop a -- Can you

24 develop a DNA profile from , like , a buccal swab
25 from an individual?
36
1 A Yes.
2 Q And -- and please explain to the jurors what is a
3 buccal swab?
4 A A buccal swab refers to swabbing that we do on the
5 inside of the cheek area . Um, some laboratories at
6 some point have used blood samples as a standard . We
7 currently use buccal swabs , which is swabbing of the
8 ins ide of the cheek as a standard sample so that
9 we'll know tha t those cells come from a particular
10 person and we'll be able to assign that particular
11 person, um, a profile.
12 Q And you can develop a DNA profile from that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And if that person were to leave, shall we say,
15 their blood at a crime scene, can you develop a
16 DNA profile from the blood at the crime scene?
17 A Yes .
18 Q And then could you compare those two?
19 A Yes, we do .
20 Q So can you make a determination whether someone
21 may be the source of a biological substance at a
22 crime scene?
23 A Yes .
24 Q And is this DNA technology t hat you've just
25 talked about used in other fields besides law
37
1 enforcement and the forensic setting?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Could you explain just some of those for the
4 jurors?
5 A Um, the technology the PCR technology that thi s
6 system is based on is us ed in the medical com
7 community quite frequently . It's used for a lot of
8 diagnostic testing , um, it's used to, uh , identify
9 individuals from mass disasters . Uh, I believe most
10 servicemen now , uh , give a DNA sample that is kept on
11 file . So t here are lot of other applications .
12 This -- this type of technology is used in many other
13 applications besides fore nsics.
14 Q Now, in this case here , um, the case that we 're
15 trying today , d i d you receive items of evidence
16 from law enforcement agencies to perform DNA
17 testing ?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q And when l aw enforcement submits items to the
20 Crime Lab, do you generate some t ype of case
21 file?
22 A Yes, I do .
23 Q And could you just explain to t he juro rs how
24 you'll go about generating your case fi le?
25 A Any time evidence is brought into the laboratory , we
38
1 have, uh, individuals , referred to as evidence
2 specialists, they take the evidence from the
3 submitter, the police officer, or - - or agency , um,
4 and we have a -- a computerized bar coding system in
5 the laboratory that keeps track of all of this
6 evidence .
7 So anytime a piece of evidence comes
8 into the lab, we give it a yellow sticker with a
9 bar code on it that , um, is a designation of what
10 the -- the lab number is. So we give it a
11 numerical number .
12 Also , each item of evidence is also
13 given an item designation. So, for instance,
14 your number of the case, and then you'll have
15 items A, B, C, D, E. So all of that information
16 is, um , given to the items when they come into
17 the laboratory . It ' s put into our computer
18 system . All of that evidence is put into
19 storage, into our evidence s t orage , and remains
20 there until the analyst needs it to actually
21 examine the evidence .
22 All of the documentation , um, that we
23 generate for each case is kept in a case file .
24 So all of ou r information with chain of custody ,
25 who took it in , what happened to it , plugs all of
39
1 the notes and all of the data that we generate
2 from our -- our analysis is kept in a case
3 jacket. And , um, that's the -- the case fi l e
4 that's generated for each case .
5 Q And did you bring your case f i le with you today?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And do you need that to testify today?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And your file -- your case jacket, will that
10 indicate what items of evidence you received and
11 on what date?
12 A Yes, i t will.
13 Q And will i t also contain the d ates that you
14 performed your analysis?
15 A Yes .
16 Q I'm going to ask Mr . Kratz , if he would, uh,
17 bring you a number of photographs , which I would
18 like you first just to take a look at, and then
19 I ' l l have a question fo r you when you've
20 completed looki n g at those .
21 A Yes .
22 Q Those photographs -- Uh , do you know who took
23 tho se photographs ?
24 A I believe -- I believe t hey were taken in our
25 laboratory .
40
1 Q And that was -- And those are photographs of --
2 of Teresa Halbach's RAV 4; correct?
4 Q And that was brought to your Crime Laboratory
5 from the, uh, Avery Salvage Yard ; is that
6 correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. And who is Ron Groffy?
9 A He's the, uh -- our -- uh, one of our im - - imaging
10 analysts, and he takes the photographs, uh, when we
11 process vehicles or when we need evidence, uh,
12 photographed.
13 Q And did he take those photographs?
14 A Yes .
15 Q And as you look at each of those photographs, do
16 they a appear to accurately depict, um, Teresa
17 Halbach's RAV 4 as it appeared when you first saw
18 it?
19 A Yes, I do .
20 Q Okay. I would like you , first, to look at
21 Exhibit 141? And --
22 A Yes .
23 Q -- um, would you, um - - And is it - - The
24 photograph that you have in your hand , is that
25 the same photograph that we have up on the
41
1 screen?
2 A Yes, it is .
3 Q Okay . And would you explain what that is?
4 A This is a photograph that it's taken in our , uh,
5 garage at the laboratory , and it is a picture of the,
6 uh -- Teresa Halbach ' s RAV 4 as it was in our
7 laboratory.
8 Q And when did you first see Teresa Halbach's RAV 4
9 in your lab?
10 A Uh, November 7 , 2005 .
11 Q And that would have been on Monday?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Okay . And what was your involvement at this
14 point on November 7?
15 A I was asked to , um, process the car for the presence
16 of blood or any biological materials.
17 Q And how did you go about doing that?
18 A The first thing we do -- Anytime we're processing
19 evidence, whether it ' s a -- a vehicle, or a piece of
20 clothing, the first thing we do is a visual
21 examination. And we, basically, just look at the
22 item of evidence to see if there's any obvious
23 stains . Um, we're looking for different biological
24 materials depending on what type of case it is and
25 what circumstances there were.
42
1 Q And did you find any blood stains in Teresa
2 Halbach ' s RAV 4?
3 A Yes . As I was processing the car, um, again, I was
4 just, basically, looking at t he interior, and there
5 were numerous obvious stains that were consistent
6 with the appearance of blood stains .
7 Q And, um, did you perform a ny type of preliminary
8 tests on these -- what appear to be blood stain s
9 in Teresa Halbach's car?
10 A Yes , I did .
11 Q And what preliminary tests would those be?
12 A Preliminary tests in the laboratory are tests that
13 are not specific for a biological material, but it
14 gives us a -- a good idea that what we're looking at
15 is, for instance , b l ood or semen . These are what we
16 refer to as presumptive tests. Um, they're not
17 confirming for blood , and they're certainly not
18 conf irrning for human blood , um, but when we get a
19 positive react ion, we know that we 're probably
20 looking at a blood a blood stain and we need to
21 take it a little further . If we get a negative
22 reaction , then it 's not blood and we're not -- we're

23 not going any furt her with the analysis .
24 Q And the , urn -- And once you perform a preliminary
25 test and get a presumptive test , shall we say for
43
1 blood , then what wou ld you do? Wha t would be the
2 next step?
3 A If I got a positive reaction , then I would sample t he
4 stain and retain that for further DNA testing . Uh ,
5 in this particular case, when I , um, got a positive
6 preliminary test, the n I sampled a portion of each
7 one of t h e stains that I looked at , um, o n a cotton
8 swab . I moistened that with some steri le water, and
9 then I, basically, just swabbed the stain and removed
10 it, and that was retained for further DNA testing.
11 Q Just give me one momen t here , Ms. Culhane . Ms.
12 Culhane , Mr . Kratz is going to hand you a number
13 of envelopes, and they -- each one has been
14 marked as an exhibit, and I wou l d l ike you to
15 look at Exhibit No . 155, and could you identify
16 that for the jurors?
17 A Yes , I can .
18 Q And what is tha t?
19 A Thi s is a, um, swab that was taken, uh - - my item
20 des ignation was A6 , and this was a swab that was
21 taken from t h e RAV 4.
22 Q And I would like you at this point -- Woul d you
23 look at Exhibit 1 42? That would be the
24 photograph . Okay?
25 A Yes .
44
1 Q And, um, can you show the jurors on , um, t his big
2 screen where it is that you collected this item
3 A6?
4 A A6 was collected from the , u h, front seat driver's
5 side portion of the -- the vehicle . Um, and it was
6 a -- a stain that I cut out of that area.
7 Q And that was a -- a blood stain; correct?
8 A Yes .
9 Q You had done your preliminary test on that?
10 A Yes .
11 Q I would like you now to look at Exhibit 156, and
12 could you explain to the jurors what that is?
13 A This is my item designation A7 . Um, this was
14 collected -- These were some , uh, reddish/brown crust
15 material that was collected from this area right here
16 on the floor by the console .
17 Q And, again, that appeared to be a blood stain?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And what was the purpose of collecting that?
20 A Um, I did my preliminary test , and , eventually, um,
21 developed a DNA profile from that .
22 Q Now, you state that you give these an item

23 designation number . Explain that a little bit to
24 that? What you mean by your Crime Lab
25 designation number?
45
1 A Okay . The car -- the vehicle, itself, was given the
2 item designation of A. And everything that we
3 subsequently collected from the car , was numbered one
4 through however many samples we took. So this would
5 be referred to as A7. "A" telling me that it came
6 from the vehicle , and A7, uh , telling me exactly
7 where I recovered this item from.
8 Q And I would ask you t o look at Exhibit 157, and
9 identify that for t he jurors?
10 A This is my item designation A7, and this was a
11 reddish/brown stain that was collected from the right
12 of the ignition area in the vehicle .
13 Q Okay. Do you have Exhibit 157 ? Isn ' t that - - Is
14 that A8?
15 A Yes .
16 Q I thought you said -- Did you say A7?
17 A I didn ' t mean to , if I did . I mean AB.
18 Q Okay .
19 A Yes .
20 Q So Exhibit 157?
21 A Is Item AB .
22 Q Okay. And, again , what is that?
23 A Uh , that was a reddish/b rown stain that was taken
24 right here to the right , uh, o f the ignition. You
25 can see it here on the photograph .
46
1 Q And, um, would y o u look at Exhibit 143 , which is
2 a photograph?
3 A Yes .
4 Q And is that -- The photograph you have in your
5 hand, is that the photog raph that ' s up on the
6 large screen now?
7 A Yes , it is .
8 Q And , again, before you collec ted this blood stain
9 from the -- by the ignition switch, you performed
10 a preliminary test?
11 A Yes , I did .
12 Q I t tested positive for blood?
13 A Yes .
14 Q And then you -- When you say , collected it , just
15 tell the jurors how did you go about collecting
16 it?
17 A I took a -- a cotton swab a nd moistened that with
18 some sterile water, and t h en I , basically , jus t
19 swabbed the area of the stai n. That , uh , material is
20 then transferred to the cotton swab , and then when I
21 take that back to my lab bench to , uh , do my testing
22 on it, then I will cut the portion that has t h e
23 stained area on it and develop a DNA profile from
24 that.
25 Q I would like you now to look at Exhibit 158?
47
1 That would be an envelope. And explain what that
2 is?
3 A Yes. This is my, uh , item designation A9 .
4 Q And, uh, where did you take that sample from?
5 A This was taken from the front passenger seat, and
6 this was a stain that was cut out of that area .
7 Q And would you correlate that for the jurors,
8 please, with Exhibit 144? That would be a
9 photograph you have in front of you?
10 A Yes . This is the same photograph that's on the
11 screen here . A9 was taken from this area right here.
12 It was cut out of the front passenger seat.
13 Q I would like you to look at another envelope,
14 which would be Exhibit 159, and tell and please
15 explain to the jurors what that is and where you
16 collected that?
17 A This is my item designation AlO, and this was a
18 reddish/brown stain that was recovered from a CD
19 case, which was on the front passenger seat, and it's
20 right here.
21 Q And, now, fi na lly , would you look at Exhibit 160?
22 That will be a envelope? And would you correlate
23 that with the photograph, Exhibit 145, and tell
24 the jurors where you got that from?
25 A This is my item designation Al2, and this was also a
48
1 reddish/brown stain that was found in this -- uh, on
2 this meta l panel here , urn, between the backseat and
3 the cargo area of the RAV 4 . Uh, it was recovered
4 from this area right here .
5 Q Now, did you perform DNA testing on each of these
6 swabs and each of these cuttings that you've just
7 described for t he jurors?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q And were you able to develop a DNA profile f rom
10 each of those items?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Now, did you awful also have a buccal swab
13 from an individual by the name of Steven Avery?
14 A Yes, I did .
15 Q And, once again , what is a buccal swab?
16 A That is a swabbing of the inside of -- the cells on
17 the inside of your check .
18 Q And is that referred to as a standard?
19 A Yes .
20 Q And why is a standard necessary in DNA testing?
21 A Because in order to compare an evidence sample, or a
22 question sample , to someone , a person, you need a
23 reference sample . You need to know what a particular
24 person's, um, DNA profile is . So we use a reference
25 standard . We know it comes from a particular person
49
1 and we can develope a profile from that and compare
2 that to t he evidence .
3 Q And did you develop a DNA profile from the buccal
4 swab of one Steven Avery?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And I'm going to show you, on the PowerPoin t
7 demonstration , a slide , and ask if your -- does
8 this slide correctly display your findings o f
9 your testing of the buccal swab of Steven Avery?
10 A Yes, it does.
11 Q Would you explain to the jurors what -- what this
12 slide means?
13 A Earlier, when I was talking about the STR markers, or
14 genetic markers, and I told you that, uh, the PCR
15 process ampli fies or makes a lot of copies of 15
16 different markers, these series of numbers and
17 letters on this side are actually , um, designations
18 of where those markers are found throughout the DNA .
19 So it -- it tells me a specific location of this
20 marker. Where it's found.
21 These numbers on this side reflect the
22 size of that target region of DNA that we're
23 amplifying at that particul ar location . So, in
24 other words, at this location, D-3, Steven the
25 sample from Steven Avery had two fragments of
50
1 DNA, size 16 and size 18. And the entire DNA
2 profile -- This is what we use, these numbers and
3 fragment sizes, that 's what we use to actually
4 compare to the evidence sample .
5 Q And the example you just gave , where Mr. Avery
6 was a 16, comma , 18 at D-3, are there other
7 possible numbers at that location that one could
8 be?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Do you know how -- what the range of numbers it
11 could be?
12 A Um, at that particular location, I believe it starts
13 at around 11 , up to, maybe, in the 20's. So there
14 are numerous fragment sizes at that particular, uh,
15 l ocation.
16 Q But here, at that location , Mr. Avery happened to
17 be a 16, comma , 18 .
18 A Yes. And at each different location, there are many
19 choices, several choices, of fragment sizes at each
20 one of those markers.
21 Q Now, did you compare this profile that you
22 obtained from Steven Avery's buccal swab with the
23 DNA profiles that you developed from the blood
24 stains in Teresa Halbach's RAV 4?
25 A Yes, I did.
51
1 Q And I'm going to put up another slide now and
2 ask, uh, does this slide accurately show your
3 findings?
4 A Yes, it does .
5 Q Now, in this slide we just did, um, we put up for
6 AlO -- I'm sorry, AB , AlO, and A12 . And, again ,
7 AS was a blood stain fo und where?
8 A By the ignition .
9 Q AlO?
10 A On the CD, uh, case .
11 Q And A12?
12 A Was found on the meta l panel between the rear seat
13 and the cargo area .
14 Q And the DNA profile that you developed from each
15 of those blood stains , please explain to the
16 jurors how that profile compared to Steven Avery?
17 A You can see by the numbers that it 's -- it's
18 consistent all the way throughout . So at each one of
19 these markers -- Um, the evidence sample was a 16,
20 18. Steven Avery was a 16, 18 .
21 At this marker, TH0-1, um, the evidence
22 sample was 9 . 3. Steven Avery was 9.3 . So he ' s
23 con These evidence samples are consistent with
24 his profile throughout all the 15 markers.
25 Q And is there any way in your testing process you
52
1 can tell whether it 1 s a male or a female who
2 leaves a, uh, biological substance?
3 A Yes, it is .
4 Q And how do you do that? The last marker that we
5 used is referred to as amelogenin . And it's a
6 gender marker. Um, if you are a female, you 1 re
7 only going to have an "X" chromosome . If you are
8 a male, you're going to have an "XY" chromosome.
9 So you can see that both the evidence
10 sample and Steven Avery both have an XY, so that
11 tells me that's DNA from a male.
12 Q Now, you also developed a DNA profile from the
13 other blood stains that you found in the
14 passenger compartment; correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q That would be A6, A7, and A9?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Okay. And did you develop similar profi le s with
19 Steven Avery as you did with AlO, 8 and 12 ?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Okay. Do you have an opinion to a reasonable
22 degree of scientific certainty whether Steven
23 Avery was the source of, uh, those blood stains
24 that you found in the passenger compartment of
25 Teresa Halbach's RAV 4?
53
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q What is that opinion?

3 A Uh, it is my opinion that Steven Avery is the source
4 of the evidence samples that -- as they're
5 illustrated right here.
6 Q Now, I'm going to ask Mr. Kratz to bring you up,

7 and -- what has previously been marked as Exhibit
8 94 -- and, um, this has been described as a a
9 swab which was taken from the release lever of

10 the hood latch of Teresa Halbach's F.AV 4. And
11 did you receive that as evidence?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q And how can you tell that you received it?
14 A Um, again, this is an example of, uh, our be -- our
15 system that -- our computer tracking system. This is
16 a label with the lab number on it, and the item
17 designation is ID. That 's our item designation with
18 a bar code that keeps track of that. These are my
19 initials, and when I received it, and, um, a seal
20 across the back with my initials when the evidence

21 was opened .
22 Q And did you, um -- When you received that swab of
23 the hood latch, what did you do with that?

24 A Uh, in this particular case, um, I did a visual exam
25 of it. Uh, there was no visible staining that was
54
1 consistent with blood or anything . And so I, uh,
2 took the swab, I cut a portion of the swab, and
3 simply began my extraction for DNA .
4 Q And did you assign a Crime Lab item designation
5 to that?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And what was that item designation?
8 A ID.
9 Q And were you able to develop a DNA profile from
10 the swab of the hood latch of Teresa Halbach's
11 RAV 4?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q And I ' m going to ask if the slide that we have
14 put up be fore the jury, whether this correctly
15 displays your findings for the DNA profile from
16 the hood latch?
17 A Yes, it does .
18 Q And, again, briefly just explain it to the jurors
19 what that is?
20 A Again, these are the -- all the 15 different genetic
21 markers, or STR markers, the locations throughout the
22 DNA, and these are the size of the fragments that
23 were developed from the evidence sample.
24 So in this case, they were fragments
25 that were developed from Item ID , whi ch was the
55
1 hood la tch.
2 Q And did you compare that DNA profile with the DNA
3 profile that you developed from the buccal swab

4 of Steven Avery?
5 A Yes , I did .
6 Q And does this slide correctly display your

7 results?
8 A Yes, it does. And, again, you can see t ha t , urn, t he
9 profile that was developed from the hood latch is ,
10 uh , consistent all the way throughout the markers
11 with Steve Ave ry' s sample.
12 Q And do you have an opinion t o a reasonable degree
13 of scientific certainty whether Steven Avery i s
14 the source of the DNA which was found on the hood
15 latch of Teresa Halbach's RAV 4?
16 A Yes, I do .
17 Q What is that opinion?
18 A Uh, that Steven Avery is t h e source of t he DNA that I
19 developed from the swab of the hood latch.
20 Q And I would like you now to see Exhibit 131 ,

21 which has been previously identi fied as , urn, t he
22 Toyota key, whi ch was found in the trai l er of
23 Steven Avery . I'm sorry, i f Mr. Wiegert could

24 locate that for you . And that has been
25 previously marked as Exhibit 131, and , uh, can
56
1 you identify that for the jurors?
2 A Yes, I can . Uh, this is a Toyota key, um, that I
3 swabbed and recovered DNA from . The key was found
4 This is a photograph of the key and it was found to
5 fit the Toyota, uh , RAV 4.
6 Q And did you, yourself, put that key in the
7 igni ignition switch of the RAV 4?
8 A Yes, I did .
9 Q And what happened when you put it in?
10 A Uh, when I put the key in and -- it turned completely
11 over, but the engine, uh, did not actually start .
12 Uh, but it did turn it over a n d it opened the doors
13 of the vehicle .
14 Q And did you p e rform DNA testing on , uh, that key?
15 A Yes , I did .
16 Q And could you explain for the jurors what you did
17 with that key when you first received it?
18 A Uh, when I first received it, um, I simply too k the
19 key, I did a visual examination . Uh, there was
20 nothing -- There were no visible stains that I could
21 see. So I took a swab and I swabbed the edges of the
22 key, this portion of the key , and both sides of
23 the -- of the key. Um, the swab , itself, after I did
24 that swabbing, was not discolored, so there was no
25 indi -- no visual indication t h at there was any blood
57
1 or anything, uh, that I could see on the key. Um,
2 and then I took that swab, and I , urn, um did a DNA
3 extract ion and developed a profile from that.

4 Q And I'm going to ask you t o in f orm the jurors
5 whether this slide adequately or correctly
6 displays your findings of your te sting of the

7 Toyota key?
8 A Yes , it does.
9 Q And the DNA pr o file that you developed from the

10 Toyota key, did you compare t hat to the DNA
11 profile of Steven Avery?

12 A Yes , I did .
13 Q And does this slide correctly display your
14 find ing s?
15 A Yes , it does .
16 Q And, again, woul d you just explain to the jurors

17 what this shows?
18 A Again , this is, uh, the profile from the evidence
19 sample, whi ch is a swabbing of t he Toyota key . And
20 it's consistent throughout with the DNA profile

21 developed from , uh, the buccal swab of Steven Avery .
22 Q Do you ha ve an opinion to a reasonable degree of
23 scientific certainty whether Steven Avery is t he

24 source of t he DNA that was fo und on the s wabbing
25 of the Toyota key?
58
1 A Yes .
2 Q And what is that opinion?
3 A Um, my opinion is that he is the s ource of the
4 swabbing -- uh, t he DNA from the swabbing of the key .
5 Q Ms . Culhane, I would like to now , um, shift back
6 to the processing of the RAV 4, and you found
7 other blood stains in t hat RAV 4 ; isn't t hat
8 correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you also look into the rear cargo area of the
11 RAV 4?
12 A Yes, I did .
13 Q And d i d you find blood sta i ns there?
14 A Yes.
15 Q There was also another item that was in the
16 passenger compartment , and that was a Wild Cherry
17 Pepsi can ; is that correct?
18 A Yes .
19 Q And I 'd like to go back to, um -- And can you
20 point out for the jurors where you found t his
21 Wild Cherry Pepsi can?
22 A Yes . I recovered it from the console area where the
23 opening is to put a can or something. Om, and there
24 was -- the soda can was right here, and that's where
25 I recov ered it from.
59
1 Q And I'm going to as k Mr. Kratz to bring you up
2 Exhibit 161, and ask if you recognize that
3 exhibi t?
4 A Yes , I do. This is the Pepsi can that I recovered
5 from the "RAV 4. Um, again , it has , uh, our
6 laboratory, um, item designation and lab number on

7 i t, a nd my item desi gnat ion was A14 .
8 Q And it -- That bag contains the actual Pepsi can?
9 A Yes , it does .
10 Q And how did you process that Pepsi can?
11 A At the time when I found , um, the can, I was , um,
12 tryi ng to -- I -- I , basicall y There was nothing
13 vis ible on the can . There was no stains or anything
14 like that . So I was trying to determine who may have
15 drank out of the can . So I swabbed the opening
16 where -- if you were drinking, where your mouth would
17 touch, and that ' s - - that's what was the swabbing and
18 that's wha t I processed for DNA .
19 Q I 'm going to ask Mr . Kratz to hand you some
20 additional photographs . I'd like you to take and
21 look at those firs t. Those are Exhibits 146,

22 147 , 4 -- 148, 149, I believe ; is that correct?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Okay. And, again , are those photographs of areas
25 of Teresa Halbach ' s SUV?
60
1 A Yes, they are.
2 Q And, again, were those taken by Ron Groffy, your
3 photographer at the Crime Lab?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And I 'm also going to ask, um , you to identify a
6 few other exhibits. I'm going to ask Mr. Kratz
7 to hand you four addi tional envelopes . What I'd
8 like you to do is to look at the first, um,
9 envelope. I believe it is, um, 151?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And what is that?
12 A Um, this is a -- a sample t hat was recovered by me
13 from the vehicle . Um, and it was my item designation
14 Al.
15 Q And would you please look at Exhibi t 146? It 's a
16 photograph. And, uh , is that photograph being
17 shown on the big scre en now?
18 A Yes, it is.
19 Q And your item designation, Al , can you show the
20 jurors, uh First of all, that was a blood
21 stain that you located?
22 A Yes .
23 Q Show them where you located that blood stain?
24 A Okay. This was It was a -- a fairly large stain
25 right here in this area up against this wheel well .
61
1 Q I'm going to, uh, ask you to look, um, at another
2 photograph, which is Exhibit 147? Which is a
3 close-up of tha t area . And, again, could you
4 just point out to the jurors where you took your
5 DNA sample from?
6 A Right in here .
7 Q And, again, would
8 A You can see the stain here.
9 Q And could you j u st describe for the jurors the
10 size of that stain and how it appeared to you?
11 A Um, it was a fairly large stain. I don't know the
12 exact measurements, but ma ybe six inches long or so .
13 Um, and it was a fairly substantia l stain, so I only
14 collected a small portion of -- the portion that I
15 would need for my examination .
16 Q I would now ask you to look at, please, Exhibit
17 152, and can you describe t hat for the jurors?
18 What that is ?
19 A This is also a -- a reddish/brown stain that I
20 recovered from the vehicle. Um, it 's my item
21 designation A2 .
22 Q And I would like you to correlate that with
23 Exhibit 148, which would be a photograph?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And could you show the jurors where it was that
62
1 you l ocated A2?
2 A Right here along this plastic, urn, threshold here
3 into the -- This is the cargo area of the RAV 4. So
4 right along this plastic piece right here.
5 Q And did that appear to be blood to you?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Did you perform preliminary tests on these stains
8 also?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And did they show positive for blood?
11 A Yes.
12 Q I would ask that you now look at Exhibit 153 , an
13 envelope? And, uh, at least inform the jurors
14 what that is?
15 A This is also, um, a reddish /brown stain that was
16 recovered by myself from the, uh, cargo area of the
17 RAV 4, and my i tem designation was A3.
18 Q And and and where did you locate that on?
19 On where?
20 A That was on the, urn , door. The actual door that you
21 open of the cargo area. Right here.
22 Q Would you correlate that with, urn, Exhibit 149 ,
23 the photograph you have?
24 A Yes. This is the same photograph that's on the
25 screen there and my sample was taken from this area
63
1 right here.
2 Q And did you perform prel imi nary blood tests fo r
3 that?
4 A Yes, I did .
5 Q And that stain proved positive for blood?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Now, I'd like t o go back to , um, t he previous
8 slide , and I'd li ke to talk about , um, Exhibit
9 153, now . I'm sorry . Would you look at -- If
10 Would -- would -- would -- This is Exhibit 148?
11 Is the photograph ; correct ? And I'm looking
12 for -- And Exhibit 154?
13 A Yes .
14 Q Okay . And do those correlate? Can you correlate

15 t hose for the jury?
16 A Yes. Um, A4 is also a reddis h/ brown stain that I
17 took from the r ear cargo area . And Exhibit 148 is a
18 photograph, um, and I took it from the metal -- this
19 metal piece right here along the -- the opening , um ,
20 in the -- this area. Approximately this area here .
21 Q And did you perform DNA testing on each of these
22 four swabs that you took from the rear cargo area
23 of the RAV 4?
24 A Yes, I did .
25 Q Now, did you also h ave a standard DNA sample from
64
1 Teresa Halbach?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 ATTORNEY GAHN: Your Honor, I had , uh,
4 spoken with Mr . Fremgen previously, and he has
5 agreed that he will stipulate that in the year
6 2002, a pap smear was taken from Teresa Halbach
7 at the Bellin Hospital in Green Bay, Wisconsin,
8 and that that pap smear was retrieved by law
9 enforcement officers and taken to the Crime Lab
10 to use as a standard .
11 THE COURT : Is that correct?
12 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge .
14 Q (By Attorney Gahn) And can you just, uh -- What
15 is a pap smear?
16 A A pap smear is a medical test where, uh, cells from
17 the cervical area of a woman are collected and those
18 are used to make, uh , medical diagnostics.
19 Q And is it okay to use a pap smear as a standard
20 for DNA testing?
21 A Yes. Any nucleated cell from a particular person can
22 be used as a standard. We normal l y use buccal cells
23 because it's easy to collect and convenient. In this
24 case, that wasn't, uh, available . So the, uh, pap
25 smear -- the cells from the pap smear were perfectly
65
1 fine .
2 Q And did you develop a DNA profile from the pap
3 smear of Teresa Halbach?

4 A Yes , I did.
5 Q And I'm going to ask you to look at this slide,
6 and, uh, does this correctly display the DNA

7 profile that you obtained from the pap smear of
8 Teresa Halbach?
9 A Yes , it does.
10 Q And , again, would you explain a little bit about
11 this to the jurors?
12 A Um, again, these are the 15 markers that we're
13 looking at. You can see this is a little different
14 from the last profiles because this is from a female .
15 So there's only an X chromosome and not an XY. And,
16 also, um, the types are quite different. Some of the
17 types are the same, but if you take the entire
18 profile in its entirety, um, i t's quite different

19 from the, uh, profiles that we just looked at .
20 Q And did you compare this profile from the pap

21 smear of Teresa Halbach with the DNA profiles
22 that you developed from the rear cargo area?
23 Namely, the blood stains in Al, A2, A3, A4, as

24 well as the DNA profile from the Pepsi can?
25 A Yes .
66
1 Q And I'm going to ask you to inform the jurors
2 whether this slide correctly displays the DNA
3 profile that you developed from those items?
4 A Yes, it does .
5 Q And did you compare the DNA profile from the
6 blood stains in the rear cargo area of Teresa
7 Halbach's car, and from the Pepsi can, with the
8 pap smear of Teresa Halbach?
9 A Yes , I did.
10 Q And I'm going to ask if this slide correctly
11 displays your findings?
12 A Yes . And, again, you can see that the profile from
13 the questioned evidence h ere , and the profile from
14 Teresa Halbach, is consistent throughout all the 15
15 markers .
16 Q And do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree
17 of scientific certainty whether Teresa Halbach is
18 the source of the DNA from those blood stains in
19 the rear of -- the cargo area of the RAV 4?
20 A Yes , I do.
22 A Uh, my opinion is that the pro files from the evidence
23 samples, um, are consistent with Teresa Halbach and
24 that she is the source of that DNA .
25 Q And -- and , also , do you have an opinion whether
67
1 she's the source of the DNA that you found on
2 your swabbi ng of the Wild Cherry Pepsi can?
3 A Yes , she is.
4 Q I'm going to put a -- a slide up now. Um, and
5 I'm also going to be as k ing Mr. Kratz to bring
6 you a photograph for you t o i d entify . And what
7 is the e xhibit number on that?
8 A One - fifty .
9 Q One-fi fty? And can you, urn, describe -- What
10 does that photograph show?
11 A This is a photograph of a a bone fragment with
12 some, um, burned, charred tissue attached to it .
13 ATTORNEY GAHN: And, once again, Your
14 Honor , urn, I had spoken with Mr . Frerngen earlier ,
15 and , um, we do have this as a piece of charred
16 remai ns that was found in the burn pit. Um ,
17 these charred remains are with the Calumet County
18 Sheriff's Department, and Mr. Fremgen stated that
19 we di d not have to produce this item here in
20 court today , and that the photograph would be
21 fine for identification.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, is that correct ?
23 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's correct.
25 Q (By Attorney Gahn) And, again , would you
68
1 describe what this item -- Did you receive this
2 item in the Crime Lab? From the Crime Lab?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q And what was it that you received? Please
5 describe what this is?
6 A Um, this is a -- a bone fragment here with a piece
7 of, um, charred ti ssue attached to it. When I
8 sampled this, I took a portion of -- of the tissue
9 that was, uh, least -- appeared to be least burned,
10 uh, towards the bone and that's what I used for my
11 examination .
12 Q And did you assign a Crime Lab item designation
13 to this?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q And what was that?
16 A Item BZ.
17 Q And did you conduct DNA testing on this tissue
18 portion of this burned bone fragment?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q And were you able to develop a DNA profile from
21 this piece of charred remains?
22 A Yes, I was .
23 Q And I 'm going to put a slide up a n d ask you to
24 explain, uh -- Firstly, does this accurately
25 display the findings of your DNA testing on these
69
1 charred remains?
2 A Yes, it does.
3 Q And would you explain to the jury what your
4 findin gs were for the charred remains?
5 A Um, you can see that I tested for each of t h e 15
6 markers that I 've been talking about. But I did not
7 get results, um, from all 15. The markers with
8 nwnbers by them are the ones that I got re sults for.
9 So there were seven markers that I actually got a
10 type from. Um, and, again, I got a -- a gender
11 marker telling me that it was from a female.
12 Q And is this what the scientists ref er to as a
13 partial profile?
14 A Yes .
15 Q Is it unusual to get a partial profile from a
16 sample such as this?
17 A No, it's not.
18 Q Explai n to the jurors why?
19 A Uh , this sample was -- obviously been compromised
20 and , um, exposed to heat. Uh, there are a lot of
21 things that will, uh, work to break down or degrade
22 DNA, and heat is one of them . Um, and, basically,
23 what it does is just chews up the DNA.
24 So on the markers that have larger
25 fragme nts, uh, you're not going to get any
70
1 results in most cases . These are -- The D5, D13,
2 07, 03, those are all smaller markers, so the
3 fragments a re smaller, and so you have a better
4 chance of getting, uh, results from those
5 particular markers.
6 Q Now, the prior charts that we looked at, where
7 you showed the profile of Teresa Halbach and the
8 DNA profiles you developed from the blood in the
9 rear cargo area of the RAV 4, those are what you
10 would call complete or full profiles; correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And this, here , is what's called a partial
13 profile?
15 Q Now, for the complete profiles, I asked you a
16 question whether Teresa Halbach was the source
17 of, urn, the blood in the rear cargo area of the
18 RAV 4; correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And you were able to state, yes, Teresa Halbach
21 was the source?
22 A Correct .
23 Q Can you say that Teresa Halbach is the source of
24 this , uh, DNA profile that you fou nd?
25 A No.
71
1 Q Now, you did compare it to Teresa Halbach's pap
2 smear; correct?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q And does this show your results?
5 A Yes. And, again, all of the markers that I did get
6 results for are -- are consistent with the types of
7 Teresa.
8 Q Now, why can't you state that Teresa is the
9 source of this profile?
10 A When we -- Anytime we develop a DNA profile, we do a
11 statistic analysis . And the purpose of that is for
12 us to det -- determine how common or how rare the
13 entire profile is in the general population. So we
14 have statistic numbers that reflect how common or how
15 rare each one of these types is, each -- at each one
16 of these markers is, within the population.
17 In order to get a -- a composite number
18 that reflects the entire profile, we multiply
19 these numbers together and that tells us how
20 common or how rare the entire profile is in the
21 population.
22 As a matter of laboratory policy,
23 anything any profile that is rarer than three
24 times the world's population, which would be six
25 trillion, we, um, refer to that as a source
72
1 attribution, so we're able to say, any profile
2 that's rarer than that is consistent, and that
3 person is the source of that profile.
4 Now, because this was a partial profile,
5 the numbers are not that high. Um, and that's
6 why I could not attribute it to Teresa.
7 Q And this is a laboratory policy based upon world
8 population?
9 A Correct .
10 Q Okay. However, were you able to , uh, generate a
11 statistic to tell how rare or how common this
12 profile would be in the general population?
13 A Yes, I was.
14 Q And what is that statistic?
15 A Um, one person in one billion in the Caucasian
16 population. One person in two billion in the African
17 American population, and, also, in the Southeastern
18 Hispanic population. And one person in three billion
19 in the Southwestern Hispanic population.
20 Q And what does that statistic mean? What does
21 this mean?
22 A Uh, when we When we calculate these statistics, we
23 use a database of individuals that's maintained by
24 the FBI, and it's the same database that's used in
25 most crime labs throughout the country. And each one
73
1 of those DNA types is assigned a specific frequency .
2 It tells you how -- how often that occurs in the
3 population .
4 So, in t he first one, one person in one
5 billion, I would expect to find that partial
6 profile from the evidence sample. I would expect
7 to find that if -- one time in one billion
8 instances in the Caucasian population.
9 Q So it's a very rare statistic; correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Are there more than a billion people in the state
12 of Wisconsin .
13 A I don't think so.
14 Q In any event, Teresa -- the charred remains that
15 were found in the burn pit, um, those, uh,
16 matched Teresa Halbach at a -- a number of
17 genetic locations?
18 A Yes.
19 Q I believe there were seven genetic locations?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And that was a complete match; correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And I'm going to ask you now to look at one more
24 exhibit -- uh, two more exhibits -- and t hat
25 would be, um, Exhibit -- what has previously been
74
1 marked as Exh ibit 113 , and described as a bullet
2 fragment that was found i n the garage of Steven
3 Avery . And can you i dentify that exhibit for us ,
4 please?
5 A Yes. Uh, this is a bull -- bullet fragment that I
6 examined . Um , it's my item designation FL .
7 Q And when you received that bu lle t fragment, how
8 did you process t ha t ?
9 A This was a very small bullet fragment . Om, I was
10 interested in -- in trying to determine if I could,
11 uh, find any DNA on the bullet fragment. I visually
12 loo ked at it . There were no visual stains like blood
13 or anything that I could see .
14 So I took the bullet fragment, itself,
15 put it into a test tube, and washed the surface
16 of it with, um, the reagents that we use to
17 extract DNA . So , basical ly, I was trying to wash
18 off all the DNA that was actually on the surface
19 of the bullet fragment . And I took that washing,
20 and that's what I did uh, that ' s what I
21 processed for DNA .
22 Q And were you abl e to develop a DNA profile f rom
23 that washing?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And does t hi s slide correctly display the DNA
75
1 profile that you developed from Item FL, the
2 bullet, which was found in Steven Avery's garage?
3 A Yes, it does .
4 Q And did you compare that DNA profile to t he
5 profile of Teresa Halbach that you developed from
6 her pap smear?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q And does this slide adequately or correctly
9 display your findings?
10 A Yes, it does.
11 Q And, um, do you have an opinion to a reasonable
12 degree of scientific certainty whether Teresa
13 Halbach is the source of the DNA that was found
14 on the bullet, Item FL?
15 A Yes , I do .
17 A That the profile from the bullet fragment, FL, was
18 cons istent with Teresa and, um, she is the source of
19 the DNA that was recovered from the bullet fragment .
20 ATTORNEY GAHN : At this time I would
21 like to move into evidence Exhibits 141 through
22 161? Is that correct? I believe?
23 THE COURT: Yes. Her CV is in -- Her CV is
24 in at -- at 164.
25 ATTORNEY GAHN: And -- and Exhibit 164 ,
76
1 yes .
2 THE COURT: Counsel, any objections?
4 THE COURT : All right . Those exhibits are
5 received .
6 ATTORNEY GAHN : I have no further
7 questions.
8 THE COURT: Uh, let's take a break . We'll
9 take a 15-minute break at this time, ladies and
10 gentlemen. We'l l be back in 15 minutes.
11 (Recess had at 10:33 a .m.)
12 (Reconvened at 11: 01 a .m.)
13 THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, cross?
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you, Judge .
17 Q Ms . Culhane, I 'm not going to ask you anything
18 about your qualifications. I think they seem to
19 be fine . Seems that you have significant
20 experience in DNA matching, as well as , uh,
21 developing profiles . Fair to state?
22 A Um- hm . Yes .
23 Q Now, in this case, you also had to prepare a
24 profile of Brendan Dassey's DNA; correct?
25 A Correct.
77
1 Q And suffice it to say, same procedure you went
2 through with Attorney Gahn and how you, uh,
3 developed Steven Avery's profile, as well as, to
4 some extent, Teresa Halbach's profile, t he same
5 procedure you followed wi t h Brendan Dassey?
6 A Correct .
7 Q And other members of the family as well; correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You had a number of profiles to develop?
10 A Yes.
11 Q When you spoke about matching with potential
12 biological evidence, again, we're talking about
13 sweat, for instance?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Possibly?
16 A Correct.
17 Q Saliva?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Um, semen?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And, obviously, blood?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And, at times, you mentioned there was no blood,
24 yet able to develop a DNA profile, and that's
25 from some other form of -- as you put it, some
78
1 other form of biological transfe r from the
2 person? A cell transfer, I think, you referred
3 to it as?
4 A Yes. Anytime, uh -- It would have been from some
5 type of nucleated cell that was present on that item
6 of evidence.
7 Q Now, obviously, the same, uh , procedures were
8 used, then, when you developed profile on, for
9 instance, a swab that you took from the RAV 4 to
10 match with a known person?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Do you recall seeing this item before?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q And -- and I believe that would be -- Was it your
15 designation DD?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And I believe it's Exhibit -- The exhibit number
18 is on there?
19 A One twenty-nine.
20 Q Okay. Did you have an opportunity to not just
21 determine whether or not you could obtain a DNA
22 or some sort of -- of profile from some source,
23 you actually swabbed it yourself? The gun?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 Q Did you swab the trigger?
79
1 A Yes , I swabbed the -- the trigger area and the
2 trigger guard here , and, also , t he area around the
3 barr el . The end of t he barrel .
4 Q Now, specifically, as to the end of the barrel ,
5 were you looking, also, for blood on the end of
6 the barrel?
7 A Yes .
8 Q Did you find any blood on t h e end of the barrel?
9 A No.
10 Q And you did that from first visually observing
11 the end of the barrel?
12 A Yes .
13 Q And then d i d y ou do a -- a s wa b to determine if ,
14 possibly, it would react to something that would
15 be positive for blood?
16 A Yes, I did .
17 Q And that was negative .
18 A Negative . Yes .
19 Q But that doesn ' t end your examination; correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q You also did a separate swab to determine if,
22 possibly, there ' s some other sort of fluid on the
23 end of the barrel that might create a profile?
24 DNA profile?
25 A Correct .
80
1 Q And so you did the same thi ng?
2 A Yes . I swabbed the barrel area and also this trigger
3 guard .
4 Q And unable to develop any sort of DNA from that
5 firea rm?
6 A No, I did not de velop a profile.
7 Q Okay . And, specifically, did you provide it --
8 any profile that matches Brendan Dassey; correct?
9 A Well , I didn't d e velop a profile at a l l .
10 Q At all?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q I 'm going to have Attorney Edelstein put up on
13 the screen, using an ELMO, it's, uh, Exhibit No .
14 45 . Can you see that from -- Oh, you have it on
15 that screen, too . Okay. So you can see Exhibit
16 45 on the scree n?
17 A Yes .
18 Q And, again, does that -- that appears to be a
19 license plate ; correct?
20 A Correct .
21 Q Do you recognize t hat li cense plate as something
22 tha t you l ooked at at the Crime Lab?
23 A Yes .
24 Q And , again, did you attempt to devel -- develop
25 some sort of a DNA pro file , from something that
81
1 might be biological , transferred onto this plate?
2 A Yes . When I was examining this plate -- This is the
3 same license number that I have in my notes. Om, I
4 was primarily looking -- There was no visible stains
5 that were consistent with blood or anything like
6 that . So I was primarily looking for DNA that might
7 have been transferred when someone touched it .
8 So I , uh -- For my sample, I swabbed
9 around t he, um, edge excuse me -- uh, the
10 edges , um, of the item, and -- with a cotton
11 swab -- and that's what I extracted.
12 Q And you were u n able to deve lop any profile;
13 correct?
14 A Correct .
15 Q I 'm now going to have Attorney Edelstein put on
16 the screen for us Exhibit 107 .
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Is there a way to put
18 it in more focus or closer up? Ray's the
19 technologically, uh , limited . There you go .
20 Okay.
21 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Do you see what -- Well,
22 do -- You -- you see the picture, obvious ly , on
23 the screen?
24 A Yes .
25 Q In that picture, there's something that says
82
1 Black Jack?
2 A Correct .
3 Q Have you s een t hat before?
4 A Yes .
5 Q And referred to as a creeper?
6 A Yes .
7 Q Correct? Oka y . And you actua lly had an
8 opportunity to - - t o attempt to extract some sort
9 of, again, biolog determine whether there was
10 any biological, uh , fluid or something on this
11 creeper that you might be abl e to develop a DNA
12 profile ; correct?
13 A Uh, in this instance -- On th i s item of evidence, I
14 was simply looking for the presence of blood,
15 apparent blood stains . And I examined it, a nd, um ,
16 it was negative .
17 Q And when you do that , again, you first did a
18 visual examination?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And then after that, since we ' re -- our eyes
21 aren ' t always perfect , you , again , took a swab
22 of -- of somewhere on the creeper , and used a - -
23 a chemical to determine the existence, if
24 possible, of blood; correct?
25 A Yes.
83
1 Q Did you swab in just one spot or did you try
2 to --
3 A I' 11 have t o look at my notes to see exactly.
4 Q That's fine .
5 A Okay . Yes . In my notes, there were numerous
6 brownish stains , um, t h at were on different areas on
7 the creeper, and I , um, uh, checked them all fo r the
8 presumptive test for blood, and they were all
9 negative .
10 Q In your in your notes , or in in your
11 report, you indicate two , uh, identification
12 numbers for the creeper? A GG and GH?
13 A Correct .
14 Q Was it two separate pieces?
15 A Yes . It's two different creepers.
16 Q Two different creepers?
17 A Yes .
18 Q So on both , the -- n either one noted the
19 existence of any blood?
20 A Correct .
21 Q Now, I ' m going to have Attorney Edelstein place
22 on the ELMO , thi s is exhibit -- This is
23 photograph , I believe it ' s Exhibit No. 82 .
24 State 's Exhibit 82 . Do you recall examining a
25 wooden headboard at the Crime Lab?
84
1 A Yes .
2 Q Does it appear to be the wooden headboard on thi s
3 picture, Exhibit No. 82?
4 A Yes , it does.
5 Q And -- And it wasn't just the headboard you
6 examined ; correct?
7 A Urn, I examined -- Some swabs were taken by someone
8 else, and those were s ubmitted. I examined those,
9 and then I, in addition to that, examined the
10 headboard .
11 Q Did you actually, again , start with determination
12 of whether there was blood on the headboard?
13 A Yes . I did a visual examination to see if any
14 stains, uh, were consistent with the appearance of
15 blood , and t hen -- t here were different types of
16 various stai ns, um , whi ch I c hecked with the
17 pres umptive test, and they we re all negative .
18 Q So no blood on the headboard?
19 A Correct .
20 Q And on the s wabs of the headboard, or spindles ,
21 that you -- that someone else had, uh, ta ken, but
22 you tested?
23 A Right .
24 Q No blood?
25 A Correct .
85
1 Q Were you able to develop any sort of DNA -- DNA
2 profile from the headboard or those swabs?
3 A Uh, no. I -- Um, the headboard, itself, I didn't
4 actually take any swabs myself, because there was
5 nothing that looked like blood. Um, the swabs from
6 the headboard I will have to check and see if I

7 actually extracted those. No. Those were not
8 extracted. They were all negative, um, for any
9 blood. So I didn't go any further with them.

10 Q Now, is there a reason why you didn't want to
11 determine if there was any sort of biological

12 fluid that might provide you with a profile? A
13 DNA profile?
14 A Well, at this point I was -- I was simply focusing on

15 the blood. Possibility of any blood. So, no, I did
16 not . I made the decision not to go any furt her with

17 that.
18 Q But on other items , you went beyond determination

19 of blood to determine if there was some sort of
20 other biological sample that might be able to

21 provide you with a DNA profile; correct?
22 A Correct. And in most of those cases it was items
23 that were thought to have been touched by someone,

24 um, and, again , in this -- in this particular item of
25 evidence, uh, we were focusing on the presence or
86
1 absence of blood.
2 Q Did you, yourself, do the swabs of the RAV 4?
3 A Yes .
4 Q And that would be interior and exterior?
5 A Yes . All the s wabs except -- Did you mean -- Do you
6 mean did I collect them?
7 Q Yes.
8 A Yes . I collected all the swabs that I examined from
9 the RAV 4, except for the hood latch , um, which was
10 collected -- s wabbed by someone else, and there were
11 also some s wabs from a battery cable and some
12 interior door handles that were collected by someone
13 else .
14 Q Bu t regardless of who collected it, you did the
15 testing on it?
16 A Oh, yes. Yes, I did.
17 Q Okay . Now, when you actually coll ected -- Let me
18 start t h ere first . Did you collect, um , a swab
19 from obvious places that a person might use t o
20 open up the vehicle? Like, for instance, a door
21 handle?
22 A Agai n, I -- I didn't swab those areas . So someone
23 else swabbed those areas . But I'm assuming that 's
24 wha t they did, is take t h em from obvious areas where
25 someone would h ave touched .
87
1 Q Did each swab indicate where they came from on
2 the vehicle?
3 A Yes .
4 Q And do you recal l whether there were swabs of the
5 cargo door handle?
6 A The back. The very back. There was a -- I did take
7 a swab of, um -- and I believe it was my Item A23,
8 because, um, I did -- analyst was processing that
9 area, and saw something, and I did swab that area,
10 and I did extract it .
11 Q Okay. You -- You did extract a sample?
12 A Yes .
13 Q And that was human or nonhuman blood?
14 A It was positive, uh , for blood, because the
15 presumptive test was positive, but it was
16 inconclusive because I didn't -- the profile was too
17 partial . I could not , uh, make any kind of
18 concl usion. So that was inconclusive.
19 Q So you were unable , then , to then go further and
20 determine if that had any sort of a DNA profile ,
21 whether it be a partial profile or a full pro --
22 profile?
23 A I did get a partial profile, but it was inconclus ive

24 because, uh, sometimes -- if a partial profile only
25 shows up one or two , uh, types , then we usually
88
1 report t hat as inconclusive , because that's not
2 really enough genetic information, um, to report
3 that . So, in this case, um, it was inconclusive.
4 Q So on d irect , for example , you had been asked by
5 Attorney Gahn, about partial profiling --
6 A Yes .
7 Q -- or a pa r tia l profile . Excuse me.
8 A Yes.
9 Q And, uh, f or instance , I believe i t was one where
10 there we re seven characteristics
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- of 15; is that right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you were able to come up wi th a pa rtial
15 profile, but here you're saying it was probably
16 more like three characteristics?
17 A Yes. Right .
18 Q So because it was so little , you weren't able to
19 come up with something that you can even give a
20 partial profile to?
21 A Correct .
22 Q Okay . Now And -- and -- and the items that
23 you were able to obtain a DNA profile within the
24 RAV 4, were you able to match any of that DNA
25 pro file in comparison to Brendan Dassey's
89
1 profile?
2 A No. None of the samples that I , uh, were able to
3 develop a profile were cons i stent with his profile .
4 Q But they were cons istent with Steven Avery?
5 A And Teresa Halbach.
6 Q And Teresa Halbach?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So you were able to match it with somebody?
9 A Correct .
10 Q Just not Brendan Dassey?
12 Q I believe you also looked at a jacket and a pair
13 of jeans ; correct?
14 A Yes, I did .
15 Q I believe that was your designa tion IJ and IK?
17 Q Did i t indica t e who those j eans were f rom?
18 A Yes . I was told t hey were -- they belonged to
19 Brendan Dassey .
20 Q And were you able to deter mine whether t here was
21 any blood on those jeans?
22 A Ye s. They were both negative for blood.
23 Q And the jacket as well?
24 A Yes .
25 Q And , again, did you go any further than to
90
1 determine any blood and determine some sort of
2 other DNA that might be, uh, available from the
3 jeans or the jacket?
4 A No.
5 Q Just the blood?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Now , did Again, was t hat your decision? Or
8 did someone else tell you, we're just looking for
9 blood?
10 A Well, in --in -- It depends on the type of case. In
11 most cases, if we're looking for something like
12 blood, then we focus on blood . Um, a lot of times
13 there are lots of different types of stains on
14 clothing or bedding or what ever, um, and some of
15 those biological materials we have presumpt i ve tests
16 for and some we don't . We don't test every stain
17 that we encounter. Um, and i n this case, like I
18 said, I was focused on whether there was blood there
19 or not. And it was negat ive .
20 Q So no blood on Brendan's jeans?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Or on his jacket?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Speaking of bedding, did you have an opportunity
25 to review any bedding that was provided to you by
91
1 law enforcement or other members of the Crime
2 Lab?
3 A No.
4 Q Were you aware that bedding had been seized?
5 A I don ' t believe so .
6 Q So no one told you about the bedding?
7 A I don't recall, no.
8 Q And i f there was any possibl e biological samples
9 from the bedding, we won't know about it; right?
10 Unless you get to look at it to determine if
11 there's an extractable sample?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Were you provided with any shell casings to
14 determine any sort of, uh -- whether there was
15 any sort of b i ological sample that you could
16 provide a -- or develop a profile?
17 A No, I did not look at the shell casings . That's --
18 No, I did not.
19 Q Now, you said you didn't look at the shell
20 casings? You were aware there were shell
21 casings?
22 A I believe there was some submitted, but they wouldn't
23 have come to me, so I don't really have any knowledge
24 of them.
25 Q So, again, if they don't give them to you, you
92
1 can't --
2 A Correct.
3 Q -- tell us if there's any sort of DNA that you
4 can extract from those shell casings; is that
5 correct?
7 Q Did you have an opportunity to look at a large
8 car hood? I think it's referred to as a Rambler
9 hood?
10 A No.
11 Q Any cardboard boxes provided to you to determine
12 whether there might be some blood or extractabl e
13 DNA?
14 A No.
15 Q Were you aware of any?
16 A No. I don't recall.
17 Q Okay . I believe you may have already testified
18 as to Exhibit 211 . Do you recall this item?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The key. Uh, you had an opportunity, as you
21 testified, to develop a DNA profile from, uh
22 from two sub -- on -- on two subjects from the
23 key; correct?
24 A Um, I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
25 Q Sure . That was kind of confusing. You had an
93
1 opportunity to review the key; correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And from that key you were able to, um, obtain
4 some trace biological samp l e?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And from that you were able to develop a DNA
7 profile?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And I believe your testimony was that it
10 reflected that o f Steven Avery?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Was there also a mix, including that of Teresa
13 Halbach, on the key?
14 A No.
15 Q J ust Steven Avery?
16 A Correct.
17 Q Was Brendan Dassey's DNA on that key?
18 A No.
19 Q Was there any blood on the key?
20 A Uh, there was no visually, uh -- anyth i ng that l ooked
21 like blood. Uh, the swabbings that I took from the
22 key were also -- there was nothing consistent with
23 the appearance of blood. I did not do any
24 preliminary test i ng for blood on that.
25 Q Okay. And if I may just ask, why not?
94
1 A Well, because in a sample like this, when something
2 is that small, I really, um -- the important part in
3 most cases is whose DNA is there. And so I made the
4 decision that I was probably working with a limited
5 amount of sample, and I wasn't going to , uh, waste
6 any of that on a preliminary result that really
7 didn't give us very much information.
8 Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as
9 Exhibit 92. And do you recognize this e xhibit?

10 A Yes.
11 Q And that , I believe, has your identification
12 number CJ2?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And that's a pair of leg irons you we re asked to
15 test to see if you could fi nd any e x tractabl e
16 DNA?
17 A Correct .
18 Q And were you able to do so?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And whose DNA we re you able t o extract from that?

21 A Uh, when I sampled this , I swabbed t he inside
22 surface, um, o f the round pa r t, and it was a mixture
23 of DNA from more t han one indivi dual.

24 Q Were you able to make any match with any of
25 the -- the known samples you h a d b efore you?
95
1 A Om, Steven Avery, based on his, uh, standard sample,
2 he could be included in, uh , that mixture of DNA .
3 Q And Teresa Halbach was excluded?
4 A Correct.
5 Q As well as Brendan Dass ey?
6 A Yes.
7 Q So he was, speci fically, excl uded from that?
8 A Correct .
9 Q And, again, I 'm going to show you what's been
10 marked as Exhibit 9 -- 91. Thank you.
11 A Um-hm.
12 Q And I believe that has -- We ll , first of all, do
13 you recognize that item?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q And that has identification number CJl on it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that's your identification number from the
18 Crime Lab?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you had an opportunity, again, to
21 determine - - or to swab that and determine if
22 there was any sort of extractable DNA?
23 A That 's correct. I swabbed the inside surface just
24 like I did with the other cuffs, um, and I got a
25 mixture of DNA from more t han one individual .
96
1 Q Did you have the same conclusions with CJl that
2 you had with CJ2?
3 A Yes .
4 Q And that would be, you could include Steven Avery
5 as possible match to the DNA?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And exclude Brendan Dassey?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And Teresa Halbach was also not -- or -- not
10 included in that?
11 A She was also excluded.
12 Q Excluded?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Did you review any other -- Excuse me. Did you
15 review any other leg irons such as these?
16 A No.
17 Q Any other handcuffs?
18 A No.
19 Q Just those two sets?
20 A Correct.
21 Q So if there were any biological samples on these,
22 we wouldn't know, because you didn't have a
23 chance to look at them and test them; correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Were you able to -- or -- I ' m sorry. Were you
97
1 asked to obtain any DNA profile from any hair
2 samples?
3 A No.
4 Q Would it have been your duties at the Crime Lab,
5 if, for say, a vacuum were seized , to go through
6 it and try to determine if there were any usable
7 hair samples?
8 A Uh, yes. In -- in a hair sample, really, the only
9 thing that you're looking at is going to be the root
10 portion of a hair. So I would, uh -- To see if hairs
11 were suitable for DNA, they would have to contain a
12 root portion.
13 Q Would someone e l se first go through it to
14 determine if that's possible before they send it
15 to you?
16 A No, I would do that .
17 Q Okay. And you don't recall, at anytime in this
18 investigation, they asked you to go through
19 any -- excuse me -- hair samples that might come
20 from, say, for instance , a vacuum?
21 A No.
22 Q You had testified previously that you had
23 reviewed a -- a -- a bullet fragment? I believe
24 it was your identification FL?
25 A Correct .
98
1 Q There was also a second bullet -- bullet
2 fragment; correct ?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you also had an opportunity to review that?
5 A Yes .
6 Q And that was, I believe, your designation FK?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Were you able to make any determination of
9 whether -- Well, first of all , were you able to
10 determine if there was blood on FK?
11 A Um, again, I treated that exactly like I did FL .
12 There was no visual, uh, indication of blood, so I
13 did not, um, do any preliminary test on anything .
14 Om, I simply washed that fragment bullet fragment ,
15 as well, and treated it just like FL.
16 Q And were you able to extract some -- any sort of
17 a DNA sample for purposes com -- of a comparison?
18 A No, I was not ab le to develop a profile .
19 Q Now, you weren't the actual technician , or the
20 crime, uh, scene person, who was at the Steven
21 Avery trailer swabbing potential stains, etc.;
22 correct?
23 A That's correct . Excuse me .
24 Q Did you observe photographs while -- of items
25 that had been -- photographs of the trailer or
99
1 items that they suspected might be, um, blood or
2 some other sort of biological sample?
3 A No, I don't believe so.
4 Q So when you would get a swab, for instance, it
5 would just say where it came from?
6 A Yes .
7 Q And you recall that there had been some swabs of
8 stains of suspected blood from Steven Avery's
9 Avery's bathroom floor, vanity, and sink?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you had an opportunity to test all those
12 stains ; correct ?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you were able to -- Well -- well, first of
15 all, it was -- Was it positive for blood?
16 A Um, I tested, um, several different swabs from those
17 areas. I tested, um, three from the vanity, one from
18 a toilet seat , and one from a sink. Um , one of those
19 swabs from the vanity was positive for blood, and one
20 from the sink was positive for blood.
21 Q And you were able , then, to -- to develop a DNA
22 profile of t ha t blood sample? Or that --
23 A Yes. Yes.
24 Q Which one?
25 A Both of those samples , um - - Oh , I'm sorry. One of
100
1 those samples from the sink was consistent with
2 Steven Avery. The other, I did not develop a
3 profile.
4 Q Okay. None were consistent with Teresa Halbach?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And none were consistent with Brendan Dassey?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Do you recall, again, having the opportunity to
9 test a swab of what appeared to be, or may have
10 been labeled as, a suspected blood found --
11 suspected blood found by the mo lding of the
12 bathroom or bedroom door?
13 A Yes .
14 Q And, again, you followed t he same procedure you
15 just explained?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Were you able to test it positive for blood?
19 Q And, again, were you able to develop a profile as
20 to the DNA of that blood?
21 A Yes .
22 Q And that DNA was?
23 A Consistent with Steven Avery.
24 Q And, again, excluding Teresa Halbach?
25 A Yes.
101
1 Q And e xcluding Brendan Dassey?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Some items were sent to the Crime Lab? Number of
4 knives. Were you able to, um -- Did you see
5 those knives?
6 A Yes. Excuse me. Yes.
7 Q And -- and, again, did you go through the same
8 process to make a visual ob - - observation to
9 determine if there was any blood on the knives?
10 A Yes .
11 Q Um, did you also do the same testing you
12 explained earlier about determining if there was
13 positive for -- for blood by using a -- a -- a
14 swab?
15 A On some of the knives, yes. I did -- uh, if there
16 was nothing visual to look at, no visual-type stain,
17 then I just d i d random swabbings, um, on the blade
18 portion to test fo r blood.
19 Q Did you, also, then, test, thereafter, to
20 determine if there was anything that you could
21 extract from it t ha t would develop into a DNA
22 profile?
23 A No.
24 Q And why wouldn't -- Why didn't you decide to go
25 that far?
102
1 A Well, because, again, urn, in a lot of the -- a lot of
2 cases, especially with a case of this magnitude, we
3 have to make decisions along the way . Urn, what
4 samples to take forward and what -- and when to, urn ,
5 stop. And in this case, I was focused on if it was
6 blood. It was not, so I chose to stop there.
7 Q At anytime do you recall independently, or if you
8 need to review your notes, any item that was
9 positive for some sort of a extractable fluid,
10 such as blood, sweat, saliva, that in -- under
11 comparison, matched with Brendan Dassey?
12 A No.
13 Q The answer i s, there weren't any?
14 A No. There were -- Of all of the samples that I
15 extracted evidence samples and developed a profile
16 were -- from, none were consistent with Brendan
17 Dassey.
18 Q Thank you .
19 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Nothing else .
21 ATTORNEY GAHN: Yes, Your Honor. Few --
22 THE COURT: Go ahead .
23 ATTORNEY GAHN: -- questions .
24 REDIRECT EXAMINATI ON
25 BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
103
1 Q Ms. Culhane, do you know how many total items of
2 evidence, approximately , the Madison Crime Lab
3 rece i ve d i n t hi s c as e from law enforcement?
4 A I believe there was a -- about 350 submissions .
5 Q And that was just in this one case?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Is that the largest number of submissions that
8 Crime Lab ha s ever received?
9 A I believe so. Yes.
10 Q And how many of those submissions -- Do you know
11 how many of them came to your unit? The DNA
12 unit?
13 A About 180 .
14 Q So law enforcement submitted about 180 samples
15 for potential DNA testing?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did you examine in some form or another all of
18 those submissions?
19 A Yes .
20 Q Would you explain to the jury, what is the range

21 of tests or examinations you do for an item of
22 evidence?
23 A Well, again, a lot depends on the type of case it i s
24 and the request that -- that may be made.
25 Um, in a lot of these particular items
104
1 of evidence, I was looking for a transfer of
2 blood. Okay? Blood was found in the RAV 4 . Um,
3 this was a homicide case. So, obviously, blood
4 would be a potential -- a very important
5 potential biological material. So I was focusing
6 on the presence or absence of blood in most of
7 these, um, pieces of evidence.
8 However, in some cases, it was more --
9 the information or the question we were trying to
10 answer was more, who touched this item or who may
11 have touched this item? Um, and in those
12 instances, blood wasn't necessarily the -- the
13 primary focus. The primary focus was, was there
14 DNA on that -- that evidence and who may it have
15 be l onged to .
16 So those kind of decisions are made
17 routinely by all analysts as you go through the
18 evidence, based on what the piece of evidence is,
19 what type of case it is , and what information you
20 may have at the time.
21 And, of course , during the course of
22 the -- the investigation , a request can be made
23 from anyone to go back and look at other items of
24 evidence or, um, examine for different biological
25 fluids, or whatever. At some point a request can
105
1 always be made, uh, to go back.
2 Q Of those 180 samples that were submitted to the
3 DNA analysis unit, do you know about how many
4 tested positive for blood?
5 A Forty-one.
6 Q And did I ask you, this 180 that were submitted
7 to you, is that the largest amount of submissions
8 for one case that your unit has ever received?
9 A It's the most I've ever received . I'm - - I'm not
10 sure about the unit.
11 Q But you said that 41 tested positive for blood?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And then did you carry each of those on for DNA
14 testing further?
15 A I attempted, uh, some type of further testing on
16 them . In some cases , the -- even though the test may
17 indicate there's -- You know, if -- if the
18 preliminary test may be positive for blood, when we
19 finally extract it , part of our procedure in the
20 extraction is to quantitate or to find out how much
21 DNA you actually have in your samples.
22 And in some of these samples, the level
23 of DNA, or the amount of DNA there, was below the
24 limits of detection for our system. In other
25 words, there wasn't enough there to go any
106
1 further with.
2 Q And even if there -- Let's say there -- your
3 system can say, well, there is enough to go
4 forward, and you do go forward with other steps
5 of the tests, are there other limitations that
6 you still may not develop a profile?
7 A In some cases , it may depend on the sample. If
8 there's, uh, degradation, if there is, um, uh -- You
9 may have -- Your quantitation part of the -- part of
10 the procedure may tell you you have enough DNA, but
11 when you actually amplify or you try to make copies
12 of those, uh, target portions of DNA, um, you may --
13 just may not develop a profile. And in that case,
14 urn, because of the condition of the sample, or
15 whatever, there's just no profile there to be
16 developed.
17 Q So as opposed to what we may see on CSI, and Law
18 and Order, and other shows, there are detection
19 limits built into the system , itself . Is that
20 fair to say?
21 A Yes, there are.
22 Q And I want to talk a little bit about the
23 different samples that have come up now. You
24 found complete DNA profiles from blood swabbings
25 in the car ; correct?
107
1 A Yes .
2 Q You found Steven Avery's from blood?
3 A Correct.
4 Q You found Teresa Halbach's from considerable
5 blood stains in the rear cargo area; correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you could carry the system through to get a
8 complete, full DNA profile?

9 A Yes .
10 Q Now, we talked a little bit, or I think defense
11 counsel has asked about, um, what's referred to

12 as touch DNA?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Understand what I'm talking about? Or what we're

15 tal king about when you
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- say touch DNA?
18 A Yes .
19 Q Could you talk about the limitations or the
20 sensitivity of the system, and the differences
21 between having a blood standard and what you
22 think may be touch DNA? Could you explain that
23 to them?
24 A Most of the time when you have a blood sample, you

25 have a -- a -- a large, large amount of DNA to work
108
1 with . Our systems are very sensitive, um, and we
2 get -- we can ge t very good results on most samples .
3 Howev e r, uh, t here is a limitation to the system.
4 When you're ta lking about a blood
5 sample, you're talking about a lot of cells , in
6 most cases , are present in that -- in that
7 sample. If you have enough blood to see a
8 reddish/brown stain, you've got a lot of cells .
9 When you're talking about a touched
10 item, you're not necessarily, um, targeting a
11 specific stain . If I were to touch this , um, all
12 I can do is swab the area that I touched , and
13 what I 'm looking for is a transfer of epithelial
14 or skin cells that may have been transferred from
15 my hand to the item .
16 Um, so it ' s not quite the same thing as ·
17 actually looking at a -- at a blood or a semen
18 stain where there 's plenty -- in most cases,
19 plenty of DNA, um, to sample . When you're
20 looking at a touched item, you're looking at very
21 small amounts of DNA.
22 And, also , if you ' re looking at a
23 touched item that , um, is an item that could have
24 been touched by more than one individual , in some
25 cases you're going to get mixtures of DNA . Some
109
1 cases you won't. Some cases you're going to get
2 DNA from the last person who touched it.
3 A lot of that depends on the person,
4 t hemselves. Mos t of us, when we touch items of
5 evidence, we leave , um, some of our DNA behind.
6 but some people leave more than others. Some
7 people naturally shed more cells than others. So
8 if you're a person who sheds a lot of cells, when
9 you touch something, you are probably going to
10 leave behind more DNA than someone who does not
11 naturally shed that many cells .
12 So when we're looking at touched items ,
13 all of these variables and all these factors come
14 into play, and all of this determines whether
15 you ' re going to get a usable profile from a
16 sample or not.
17 Q And when you talk about someone being a good
18 shedder or a poor shedder, does the surface
19 that 's touched have any impact on whether you'll
20 find a -- sufficient DNA to develop a profile?
21 A Yes . If you're touching something rough, uh, like a
22 piece of wood, maybe, or, um, I don't know, a rough
23 surface , you're probably going to leave more cells
24 than if you're touch ing a smooth surface, probabl y.
25 And, again, these are generalizations. These are not
110
1 rules , and these are not always exactly the same .
2 Um, smooth surfaces , sometimes there's
3 not as much, uh, DNA left beh ind , but, again ,
4 that's not to say that you can't get a profile
5 from a smoot h s u rface. They' re just
6 generalizations .
7 Q An example would be -- And I believe Mr . Fremgen
8 handed you the . 22 caliber rifle ; correct?
9 A Yes .
10 Q And you swabbed the barrel? Well, you looked for
11 blood and did not find any ; correct?
12 A Yes .
13 Q And then you swabbed the trigger guard?
14 A Yes .
15 Q But , according to your notes, as I recall them,
16 you developed some DNA; correct? Some DNA
17 markers?
18 A I -- Yes . I developed one marker.
19 Q And I think you referred to it as res -- uh,
20 fi nding some trace DNA being present?
21 A Correct .
22 Q So, if there, is it a limitation of the system to
23 develop the full profi l e? Or could it be that
24 whoever touched it just did not leave enough or
25 the surface wasn' t sufficient to gather enough?
111
1 A It's probably a combination of all three. I
2 There's no way to tell exactly why. Um, the bottom
3 line is the person who touched it may not have shed
4 enough DNA, um, the DNA, itself, may be degraded, not
5 of -- of good enough quality to get a full profile.
6 So it's probably a combination of all those factors.
7 Q And that would be the same for license plates?
8 The same factors would, uh, determine whether DNA
9 was left on license plates if they were touched
10 by someone?
12 Q And that, of course, is also going to be assuming
13 someone's not wearing gloves, or using something
14 to put in between the i tem and their hands , or
15 whatever?
16 A Right . I'm -- I'm making the assumption that you're
17 actually touching it with your skin . Your bare skin .
18 Q And, um, Mr. Fremgen asked about the key . And
19 you found Steven Avery's profile on that key;
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Have there been any studies done, or any
23 literature that talks about this, um, somewhat
24 I think you stated that you generally will find
25 the profile of the last person who touched it; is
112
1 that correct? Did you state that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Could you explain that to the jurors more?
4 A Well, again, there have been studies done about, uh,
5 transfer and -- and how much -- how much you have to
6 handle something, um, what -- what factors are
7 involved i n transferring DNA by touched items. And,
8 again, these are not -- these are generalizations.
9 And in a lo t of cases i t has been found
10 that transfer of DNA happens instantaneously, um,
11 and it's usually either the last person that
12 touched the item or you're going to get a mixture
13 of DNA. And , again , this is simply a
14 generalization. Um, you may get mixtures of DNA
15 from several different people who have touched
16 it, or you may just get a single source DNA.
17 Q And I believe, also , Mr . Fremgen asked you
18 whether there was any blood on the pants of
19 Brendan Dassey that were submitted . Do you
20 remember that?
21 A Yes .
22 Q And I believe your -- And what -- what was your
23 answer to that question?
24 A There was no blood found .
25 Q Um, do you recall what you put in your notes when
113
1 you examined the pants of Brendan Dassey?
2 A Uh, yes, I can refer to those notes . Um, in my notes
3 I describe the size , um, what brand they were. Um,
4 my notes read that they 're fairly clean . Large areas
5 of whitish stain . Looks like staining from bleach .
6 No stains consistent with the appearance of blood.
7 There was one small brown stain on the leg of the
8 jeans , and that was negative for blood.
9 Q I've put up what has been previously marked as
10 Exhibit 54 , and are these the jean s of, uh,
11 Brendan Dassey, do you recall, that you examined?
12 A I believe so .
13 Q And you note in your notes that t h ere appear to
14 be bleach stains; correct?
15 A Yes .
16 Q And what, um -- What does bleach do to DNA?
17 A Um, bleach , basically, c~ews up DNA and destroys it .
18 We use bleach in the laboratory, a five percent
19 solution of bleach, to clean our bench tops, to clean
20 all of our scissors and fo rceps, um, to make sure
21 that we don't have any DNA that's -- that ' s left on
22 our -- our bench tops , uh, or pipets, or any of the
23 instrumentation that we use .
24 Q And , I'm sorry, you use bleach to clean your
25 instruments , you stated?
114
1 A Yes .
2 Q And the reason being because it , basically, kills
3 the DNA?
4 A Yes .
5 Q And , urn, if these -- If pants have been washed a
6 number of times or , uh -- what is t hat going to
7 do to potential DNA if you've had a number of
8 washings of pan ts ?
9 A Wel l , in most cases, DNA is -- is -- if it's going
10 if it's in a -- a material like blood, or semen , or a
11 biological fluid , it ' s going to be soluble in water.
12 So the more times you wash it , uh, depending on how
13 thorough you wash it , what type of -- you know,
14 whether you wash it with bleach, whether you wash
15 it -- what type of detergent you use , urn, eventually
16 it's going to destroy the DNA, or at least wash it
17 f rorn the garment where we would not be able to detect
18 it .
19 Q And so cleaning materials , like bleach, or wiping
20 surfaces clean , that all, also , would have an
21 impact on whether you wil l find DNA on a
22 particular item to test?
23 A Yes .
24 Q And is there anythi ng in the literature that , uh,
25 discusses what the absence of DNA at a crime
115
1 scene means?
2 A Urn, most of the references that you see in the
3 literature, the absence of DNA's, basically,
4 inconclusive . The pres ence of DNA, obviously, uh,
5 point to some sort of physical contact .
6 Uh, the absence of DNA, because there's
7 so many variables, it either -- there was no
8 contact, it wasn't there in the first place, or
9 it's been destroyed by some environmental factor ,
10 or it's just in a level that's too low to detect .
11 So, basically, the absence is an inconclusive,
12 uh, conclusion .
13 Q And all the other variables kick in, too, whether
14 someone's a good shedder or bad shedder; correct?
15 A Yes . Correct.
16 Q The surf ace area that perhaps the biological
17 substance is left upon; correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Whether someone's cleaned it up or not?
20 A Correct.
21 Q So the absence of DNA at a crime scene does not
22 mean someone was not there?
23 A Well, the absence just means that there's no DNA that
24 we can detect.
25 Q Thank you. That's all I have.
116
1 THE COURT : Any recross?
2 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : A few , Judge .
5 Q Uh, one of the c omments, I thin k, Mr. Gahn was
6 asking was about blood and comment about touching
7 items versus, um, a blood stain, fo r instance .
8 It 's easier to see blood; correct?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Would you agree it 1 s easier to develop DNA
11 profile from blood t han from possibly a touched
12 tra nsfer of DNA?
13 A Well, it depends on how much blood is there. But if
14 you have a -- a visible blood stain, a fairl y visible
15 blood stain, wi t h a lot of material to work with , um,
16 you ' ll probably be able easily to develop a DNA
17 profile . It's -- it 's hard to compare the t wo,
18 because there's no visual , um, measure between the
19 t wo. There may be a touched item that you have with
20 lots and lots of DNA on it . There may not . But you
21 can ' t really see that . There also may be touched
22 items with very little DNA that you can't rea lly see .
23 Q One you can see you think you could more eas ily
24 extract DNA from somethi ng that you can ' t see?
25 A Um, I suppose I would agree with that .
117
1 Q Well, one of the comments you made on redirect
2 was there are more cells available in a blood
3 A Well, if you have a fairly large blood stain, again,
4 you're talking about a - - a -- I was referring to the
5 stains, primarily, that I recovered from the RAV 4.
6 If you have a very light blood stain, and you don't

7 have very much -- I mean, i t 's a very weak blood
8 stain -- stain, you may not have that many cells in
9 that as well .
10 Q But the fact that -- you just, I think, mentioned
11 i t -- the fact that it may be it may not be
12 blood, doesn't mean you can't extract the DNA
13 sampl e from that i tem? It just depends on
14 whether or not the -- the -- you know, whether or
15 not there was a transfer of some sort of

16 b i ological fluid or ce l l from a touch, for
17 instance, that you can actually be abl e to, uh,
18 extract and develop into a profile?

19 A Correct .
20 Q Okay. So, for instance, you had mentioned the

21 bullet fragment FL. You weren't able to discern,
22 um, blood on the bullet?
23 A Not visually , no.
24 Q Visually .
25 A Right .
118
1 Q And -- But you were able -- you said you -- I
2 think you said you washed the bullet?
3 A Yes .
4 Q And able to ex t ract DNA from that, that matched
5 Teresa Halbach?
6 A Correct.
7 Q You tried the same with the bullet FK, and unable
8 to do so?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And that would be the same with such things as
11 shell casings , for instance? You could probably
12 wash those to extract, potentially, a DNA sample
13 or something that might be able to develop into a
14 profile?
15 A Correct.
16 Q But -- But, again, you didn't do that in this
17 case?
19 Q So I guess the issue i s, if you don't try, you
20 won't know; right ? If you don't try to extract
21 DNA from something , you don 1 t know if it's there?
23 Q In regards to the -- the jeans, question was
24 raised about there -- you -- you noticed some
25 white specks and a light , um, kind of a brushed
119
1 area that appeared to be bleach?
2 A Yes .
3 Q Now, if the entire pair of jeans had been soaked
4 in bleach, you p robably expect a little more
5 white, uh, I guess, bleaching stain, than what
6 you saw; correct?
7 A I don't really recall . All I recall is that the
8 stains looked li ke they were consistent with stains
9 that would have been left from bleach . I don't
10 really recall how much bleaching there was.
11 Q And when you were looking for blood, you were
12 looking, again, visually, first?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And did you then swab the entire, even cuffs , to
15 decide -- to determine whether or not there might
16 be more -- I won't -- I don't want to call it
17 invisible, but blood that you just can't detect
18 wi t h the naked eye ?
19 A No. I -- There was one small brownish stain on the
20 bottom leg of the jeans that was negative.
21 Q So other than that detectable colored stain
22 A Yes .
23 Q -- you didn't swab for any other areas?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, you mentioned that there were about 350
12 0
1 submissions to the Crime Lab in this --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- case? And about 180-plus just to your lab?
4 A Just to the DNA section.
5 Q Just to the DNA section?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, you mentioned t his is a homicide case, so,
8 obviously, I take it, that it had a more priority
9 than some other cases you were handling?
10 A Yes .
11 Q And some of the comments you made in questions to
12 myself, and I think redirect to Attorney Gahn,
13 were you had to make dec isions what you were
14 going to test further to see if there was a D
15 potential extractable DNA sample; correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, you didn't just decide, we're just too busy.
18 Just plain busy . We can't do it . That wasn't
19 your reason; right?
20 A No .
21 Q Correct? And you didn't do it because i t's too
22 hard?
23 A No.
24 Q Why didn't you do i t?
25 A Well, again, because we ' re -- what we're doing was,
121
1 as an analyst , it ' s my job to take all the
2 information I have on a case and to decide what
3 evidence is going to be I feel is going to be
4 probat i ve . Again , a t some point during the -- my
5 analysis, and after my reports are written, um, if
6 there was more evidence that was felt to be probative
7 by either the submitter or defense counsel, then
8 those requests could be made at that time to further
9 do mo r e testing .
10 Q You said that this is a homicide case? You're
11 also aware there were allegations of sexual
12 assault?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And would you agree with me that in those types
15 of investigations testing the bedding is often a
16 very common investigate -- or a common way of
17 determining if there's any extractable DNA?
18 A Yes, it can be .
19 Q Okay . And, again, you weren ' t asked to look at
20 any bedding?
22 Q No one sent it to you?
23 A No, it was not submitted .
24 Q And you didn ' t test anything like that?
122
1 Q Thank you.
2 THE COURT : All right . You may step down.
3 Unless the State has a five-minute witness here,
4 we're going to adjourn and -- and reconvene at 1 : 00 .
5 ATTORNEY FALLON: Can you make that
6 about 1 : 10?
7 THE COURT : One-ten.
8 ATTORNEY FALLON: Thank you .
9 (Recess had at 11:54 a . m. )
10 (Reconvened at 1 : 15 p.m.)
11 THE COURT : Good afternoon. Counsel, your
12 first witness?
13 ATTORNEY GAHN : Yes, Your Honor. The
14 State would call Nick Stahlke to the stand.
15 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand .
16 NICK STAHLKE ,
17 called as a wi t ness herein , having been first duly
21 THE WITNESS : Nick Stahlke, S-t-a-h-1-k-e.
23 BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
24 Q Mr. Stahlke, where are you employed?
25 A Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory in Madison.
123
1 Q And what is your position there?
2 A I'm a forensic science training coordinator.
3 Q And what is your formal, um, educational

4 background?
5 A I have a Bachelor's Degree in chemistry and medical
6 technology .
7 Q And would you please, uh, summarize your current
8 duties and responsibilities at the State Crime
9 Lab?
10 A As a forensic science training coordinator, I'm
11 responsible for coordinating the teams of individuals

12 that go out and process crime scenes, and I 'm also
13 responsible for the training of those teams to
14 respond to those cases .
15 Q And, um, how long have you been at the Wisconsin
16 State Crime Laboratory?
17 A Fifteen years.
18 Q And during those 15 years, did -- was there any
19 time period that you were i nvolved in the
20 interpretation of blood stain patterns?
21 A Actually , the entire time that I 've been at the State
22 Crime Lab in -- in Madison I've been involved in
23 blood stain pattern interpretation.
24 Q Have you attended any specialized schools for
25 blood stain pattern interpretation?
124
1 A Yes, I have .
2 Q And would you just describe some of, uh, the
3 schooling you've had for the --
4 A In -- in 1988, I attended a 40-hour course in basic
5 blood stain pattern interpretation . In '99, I also
6 attended a advanced , uh, course in crime scene
7 processing , which had a component of blood stain
8 patterning interpretation. And I've also been to or
9 attended workshops involving the exami nation of
10 clothing with stains .
11 Q And could you, uh -- What skills and experience,
12 uh, do you have i n blood pattern analysis?
13 A Well, I've been, uh , examining scenes and clothing
14 for the past 19 years. I had, uh, five-and -a-half
15 years at the State Crime Lab in Idaho prior to my,
16 uh, being employed with the state of Wisconsin . So
17 for the past 19 years I ' ve examined, uh, scenes and

18 see whether or not there's any , uh , information that
19 we can -- tha t we c an, uh, gain from interpreting
20 those stains at crime scenes .
21 And then any, uh -- any clothing that

22 has been submitted to the Crime Lab that has
23 blood stains on them to determine whether or not
24 there 's any additional information that can be
25 gained from an interpretation of those stains .
125
1 Q And have you given lectures or taught on this
2 subject that's related to blood stain pattern
3 analysis?
4 A Yes , I have .
5 Q And, um, you stated you've been involved for 19
6 years with blood stain pattern analysis?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Have you ever testified in a court of law in, um,
9 Wisconsin as an expert in interpreting blood
10 stain patterns?
11 A Yes, I have.
12 Q And how many times?
13 A Approximately ten times in interpretation of stains .
14 Q And have you ever been rejected as an expert in
15 this area?
16 A No, I have not .
17 Q Um, I 'd like you just to take a moment and
18 Well, first, I ' m going to ask Mr. Kratz to hand
19 you what's been marked as Exhibit 165, and if you
20 would please identify that for us? And what --
21 what is that document, sir?
22 A This is my curriculum vitae .
23 Q And is that, basically, a summary of your
24 training, education , and experience in blood
25 pattern analysis?
126
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q Thank you. Now, I would ask you to, um, just
3 explain fo r the jurors the types of
4 determinations that can be made from blood stain
5 patterns?
6 A Interpretation of stains -- blood stain -- blood
7 stains, can help in determining the victim's
8 placement, the suspect's placement, whet her or not
9 the v i ctim has moved since bloodshed has occurred or
10 it began, or it can also give some indication of
11 whether or not the suspect has -- that -- that
12 there's been any movement from the suspect .
13 It is a, uh -- It also can give us in
14 some indication of , uh, the types of weapons that
15 may have been used, or the instruments that
16 use -- were used in the -- in the assault, uh,
17 and it's uh -- it can give me -- give us some
18 indication of the manner in which those, um,
19 blows or -- or the types o f what -- how the blood
20 actually had -- has been deposited .
21 Uh , one -- one of the valuable things
22 between -- of blood stain pattern interpretation
23 is trying to determine the difference between
24 or disting -- to distinguish the di fference
25 between a suicide and a homicide . Um --
127
1 Q Are there different types of blood stain
2 patterns?
3 A Yes, there is .
4 Q And what -- And what are they, briefly, for the
5 jury?
6 A Basically, there's three categories of stains . You
7 have passive stains, uh, projected stains, and
8 contact s tains.
9 Q I'm going to , um, put up on the screen an exhibit
10 that has already been introduced into evidence .
11 It 's Exhibit 141 . And this is a photograph , urn,
12 which you'll see in just a moment, of , uh, Teresa
13 Halbach's, urn, 1999 RAV 4. Do you recognize this
14 vehicle?
15 A Yes , I do .
16 Q And when did you first see this vehicle,
17 Mr . Stahlke?
18 A It would have been on a Monday, November 7 in 2005 .

19 Q And where was the vehicle at tha t time?
20 A This is in the center bay of our garage at the State

21 Crime Laboratory in Madison .
22 Q And did you have an occasion to examine the
23 interior of this vehicle for any type of blood
24 stains?
25 A Yes , I did .
128
1 Q And exactly what -- what did your examination
2 consist of, initially?
3 A Basically, the examination of a -- of a case for
4 blood stains is to a visual examination, and in this
5 particular case I observed blood stains in the front
6 passenger compartment of this RAV 4 .
7 Q And what type of blood stains did you observe in
8 this RAV 4 in the passenger compartment?
9 A In the front passenger compartment, uh, I saw a
10 contact transfer stains . And I said t ha t as a -- one
11 of the categories of contact transfer stains is those
12 stains that, um, have a bloody object that has come
13 in contact with the nonbloody surface.
14 Q I'm going to, um, now show you what has already
15 been marked as Exhibit 142, and I also
16 identified by, uh, Sherry Culhane as a photograph
17 of Teresa Halbach's vehicle from the Crime Lab .
18 And do you recognize this photograph?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Mr. Stahlke, is the laser pointer up there?
21 A I do not see one.
22 Q Okay . We're going to look for that, uh, now .
23 Um, but, uh, what does this, urn, photograph
24 depict?
25 A Well, this is the driver ' s compartment. Front -- or
129
1 the seat with the door open.
2 Q And did you observe any type of, urn, individual
3 contact transfer stains, uh, in this area?
4 A Yes, I did .
5 Q Okay. I'd like you to just to point out to the
6 jurors where you found these, uh, stains?
7 A Right here on this front driver's seat right here.
8 Q And how did you describe that? As what type of
9 stain?
10 A That would be a contact transfer stain.
11 Q And what do you mean by a contact transfer stain?
12 A Be the type of stain that's deposited when a bloody
13 source has come in contact with a nonstained surface .
14 Q And I'm going to just show you now what has been
15 previous ly marked as Exhibit 144 . And this is a
16 photograph , also, of Teresa Halbach's RAV 4. Can
17 you describe or show any other contact pattern
18 stains that you observed in the vehicle for the
19 jury?
20 A This image is of the passenger's front compartment,
21 or passenger seat , wi th the front door open, and, uh ,
22 I also saw contact transfer stains right on the front
23 edge, or on the left edge, of that , uh, front
24 bucket -- bench seat or bottom of the seat . There's
25 also stains on this, uh, plastic CD holder.
130
1 Q And , again , what type of stains did you find on
2 that? On those -- In those two locat i ons?
3 A Again, t hese are all contact transfer stains.
4 Q Are these stains consistent with being left by a
5 person who would have a bloody hand , shall we
6 say?
7 A Yes .
8 Q I'm going to now show you what has been marked as
9 Exhibit 143 and ask you to describe if you
10 observed any contact blood stains in this
11 photograph?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q Point those out to the -- point it out to the
14 Jury , please?
15 A Right here. Right below -- Here's the ignition to
16 the , uh, RAV 4 right here , and this is just down and
17 to the right of the ignition.
18 Q And, again, that is the type of stain that is
19 left by something t hat has blood on it , coming in
20 contact , and leaving the stain?
22 Q I'm going to now show you what has been
23 previously marked as Exhibit 89, and identified
24 as a cut . Uh, photograph of a cut to the middle
25 right finger of Steven Avery. Do you see that?
131
1 Have you take a look at that, please? Seen that
2 before ; correct?
3 A Yes, I have.
4 Q Is that cut that you observed to Steven Avery's
5 hands, is that the type of bloody object that
6 could leave the blood pattern that you observed
7 by the ignition switch of Teresa Halbach's car?
8 A This type of cut would be a candidate for the type
9 of -- of bloody source that could have, uh, left that
10 blood stain or that contact transfer stain.
11 Q I'm going to show you now and what has been
12 previously marked as Exhibit 145, and ask if you
13 can identify that p hotograph for us?
14 A Yes, I can .
15 Q And is there a blood stain in that photograph
16 that you observed?
17 A Yes. This is actually a photograph of the right rear
18 passenger side door, and there's a -- a stain right
19 here that is considered -- I consider a passive drop .
20 Q And when you say "a passive drop" -- here we have
21 zoomed in on it -- what do you mean by a passive
22 drop?
23 A This is the type of stain that, um, if you have a
24 a bloody object, and there 's enough blood on that
25 object , uh , that it will drip or fall to the ground,
13 2
1 uh, when gravity is the only th i ng that is
2 influencing, uh, that particular blood stain or blood
3 droplet that hits the -- the -- that impacts that
4 surface .
5 Q And, again, could a passive drop, such as this,
6 be left by someone who has a cut to their hand?

7 A Yes, it could .
8 Q Based upon the the combination of blood stain
9 patterns that you observed in the passenger
10 compartment and here at the rear, uh, passenger
11 compartment, uh, do you have an opinion to a
12 reasonable degree of scientific certainty whether
13 these combi nations of b l ood stain patterns were
14 left by someone who was actively bleeding?

15 A Yes, I do.
17 A That that is, in -- indeed, the -- uh, what probably
18 happened . A individual that is, uh has a -- a --
19 a wound of some sort, uh, and taken all these things
20 into combination or consideration, that, uh, they

21 were left by somebody that was actively bleeding .
22 Q Now, did you also examine the rear cargo area of
23 Teresa Halbach's car?
24 A Yes, I did .
25 Q Okay. And I'm going to show you what we have
133
1 previously marked as Exhibit 146 and ask if you
2 recognize that area?
3 A Yes . This is an image of the rear cargo area of
4 the -- the RAV 4 that I examined on the -- on
5 November 7.
6 Q And d id you observe any blood stain patterns in
7 this area, of, uh, Teresa Halbach's car?
8 A Yes, I did .
9 Q And would you point those out for the jury?
10 A Right along this right -- the molding, plastic
11 molding, just behind the right rear passenger side
12 seat are a series of stains.
13 Q We're going to zoom in here a little bit for you,
14 um, Mr . Stahlke, and, again, describe for the
15 jurors what -- what actually you're observing
16 here?
17 A These -- All these stains, uh, fall in the category
18 of a contact transfer in which a bloody object has
19 come in contact or -- with a, uh, nonbloodied stain
20 surface . And in this particular case, we've got some
21 characteristics within that stain that are unique.
22 These s ta ins right here have a, uh
23 elliptical pattern . In other words, they they
24 look like they're , um, half circles, and
25 they 're -- they have the appearance of -- if you
134
1 would take spaghetti , and put spaghetti sauce on,
2 and, um, then flip it out on a table top or
3 something on that order , or on the edge of your
4 plate , you could see that there's strands of --
5 of -- and then take those -- spaghetti out of
6 that -- out of those -- off that surface, it
7 would leave a -- the surf -- the, um -- the
8 characteristics of these particular stains . And
9 they're characteristic of, and typical of, bloody
10 hair that has come in contact with that surface.
11 Q Is that, uh, in your field , sort of a -- a
12 classic pattern that you see left by bloody hair?
13 A When I see a -- a stain like this , this is definitely
14 a classic stain, and i t indicates a strong likelihood
15 that that is head hair that has been -- that has been
16 bloodied, and then that has come in contact
17 transferring that -- that blood to that surface .
18 Q Did you observe any other type of blood stain
19 patterns in this area of Teresa Halbach's
20 vehicle?
21 A Well, there's additional contact stains or transfer

22 stains here. Uh, and those are, in general, in a
23 in description because they're -- they're just a

24 bloody object that's come in contact .
25 There's also some light transfer stains
135
1 on the carpeting, which are consistent with a
2 swipe pattern . Now , a swipe pattern is a, uh
3 an object that has blood on its surface, and
4 it 's -- indicates movement, and it transfers ,
5 then , that blood from the bloody object onto a
6 nonstained surface. But showing but it also
7 indicates movement , so we call that a swipe
8 pattern .
9 Q I'm going to show you what has been marked as
10 Exhibit 148 . And I believe Ms . Culhane described
11 this as the rear panel area of the RAV 4; is that
12 correct?
13 A Well, this would be the threshold .
14 Q Threshold or rear area of the cargo
15 A Correct . It's a -- it ' s -- it's just below this
16 picture would be where the the , uh, bumper of that
17 vehicle would be. So this is the threshold of the
18 rear door .
19 Q Did you observe any blood stain patterns in this
20 area?
21 A Yes . As you can see , there's some stains here, here,
22 um, some stains here as well , and along here. Some
23 of them are more difficult to see than others .
24 Q And how would you describe those stains that you
25 observed on the threshold of the door?
136
1 A Well, they 've got , urn -- These are -- Some of them
2 are contact transfer stains like I described earlier ,
3 others are impact stains. And they ' re -- There's one
4 here that might be, uh -- might be considered a --
5 that's considered a swipe pattern there as well .
6 Q And, again, what does a swipe pattern indicate to

7 you?
8 A Movement .
9 Q It --
10 A It's the transfer of a -- of blood from a -- a moving
11 object that has blood, uh , on it, and, uh, it's a
12 trans -- it's -- has contact with a nonstain surface,
13 leaving that blood behind, and it also indicates that
14 there's been movement .
15 Q Based upon your observation of the combination of
16 bloody stain patterns you've observed here on the
17 threshold, and, also, those wavy patterns that
18 you observed up in t he -- the inside panel of the

19 rear cargo area, are these consistent wi th a body
20 that has bloody hair being moved into the rear
21 cargo area?
22 A I would say it's very consistent with that, yes .
23 Q Did you al so examine the, um, interior door of
24 the RAV 4?
25 A Yes, I did .
137
1 Q I'm going to show you now what -- what has been
2 marked as Exhibit 149, and ask you to point out
3 to the jurors any observations you made of this
4 examination?
5 A This is the rear cargo door . It's hinged on one side
6 and it opens like any other door entrance to a
7 vehicle, but it's larger, and it covers the who l e
8 rear end of this RAV 4, and it opens to the right.
9 This is the interior of that particular
10 door . On this door were numerous impact stains .
11 Some of these stains, then, had associated flow
12 patterns to them.
13 Q I'm go ing to zoom in here on some of these stains
14 and ask you to just point out to the jury, um,
15 t he stains, again , that you observed?
16 A Okay . Some of the stains right here . You see these?
17 They're -- These are more circular in nature. Here,
18 here, here. These here. This one .
19 Q And what does that mean to you when you say
20 they're circular in nature? Or t hey a ppear that
21 way on the door?
22 A It means that blood has been flung off of a bloody
23 object and then i mpacts that surface . And if they're
24 perfectly circful (phonetic) -- circular, that means ,
25 then , that they impacted that circuit -- surface at a
138
1 90-degree angle.
2 Now, if there's any elliptical pattern
3 to that, then they impacted at an angle. In this
4 particular case, these are near circular.
5 However, some of them are more -- are somewhat
6 elliptical in that they may have fallen. So
7 it -- it's indicative of blood being flung or
8 thrown from a moving object.
9 Q Now, I think you also stated that you saw some
10 associated flow patterns?
12 Q And, again , please point those to the jury and
13 explain what you mean by that?
14 A Right here , you can see that there's, um, some
15 flow or some stains that -- that have, uh, not only
16 impacted the surface , but then, also, uh, flowed down
17 toward the ground. Well, these flow patterns, uh,
18 are then acted on by gravity alone after they've
19 impacted the surface of this interior of the door.
20 Q And seeing this type of pattern , what does that
21 indicate to you?
22 A Well, the flow patterns after an impact stain would
23 indicate that it's a fairly large amount of blood
24 that's -- that's impacted that surface, and it -- it
25 just didn't stick on that particular surface, it had
139
1 enough , then , t ha t there was gravity acted on it , and
2 pulled it down toward the ground .
3 Uh, with all these stains, these stains
4 are indicative of of a -- a bloody object that
5 has been -- is f lung around and then causing that
6 blood to , uh , release from that bloody object and
7 striking the surface of that inte r ior side of the
8 door.
9 Q I 'm going to show you what has been marked as
10 Exhibit 166 , and ask you to identify th i s? What
11 is that , sir?
12 A Thi s is the entire, uh -- an overall shot of the , uh,
13 rear cargo area of that RAV 4.
14 Q And did you do -- make a ny meas u rements in t his
15 area?
16 A Yes , I did.
17 Q And what area did you measure?
18 A I measured the opening of the cargo area .
19 Q And, um, wou ld a slender 5 ' 6 woman fit in the
20 back of that RAV 4?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And based upon all the b lood patterns that you
23 observed in the rear cargo area of that, um ,
24 RAV 4, um, do you h ave an opinion to a reasonable
25 degree of scientific certainty whether the
140
1 patterns you observed by the interior panel on
2 the threshold, and on the interior door, itself,
3 are consistent with a body with a bloody head

4 being loaded into the rear cargo area?
5 A Yes , I do.
6 Q And what's that opinion?

7 A That that is, indeed, what may have happened. A
8 bloody a body that has bloody head hair was, uh,
9 loaded in , uh -- into this rear carg -- cargo area
10 and placed, uh, just behind the right rear seat of
11 this, uh -- of the seating area in this car . This
12 Toyota RAV 4 .
13 Q And, finally, Mr . Stahlke, I just have, uh, one
14 other issue to discuss with you. I'm going to

15 hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 167, and
16 ask you if you would, um, identify this

17 photograph for the jurors? And we'll also put it
18 up on the big screen. Uh, I want to ask you, did
19 the time come when you were asked to check the
20 odometer on this vehicle?

21 A Yes, there was .
22 Q And -- and, um, what happened when you attempted
23 to check the odometer?

24 A I believe it was the second day. It would have been
25 the 8th of November, then, that, uh, we got a call
141
1 requesting that we check the odometer reading on this
2 vehicle. Uh, when , uh, we attempted to, uh It's a
3 digital da s hboa r d . So when we wen t to open or turn
4 the key, there was -- there was no electronics, uh,
5 to this particular dashboard . So we couldn't get the
6 reading.
7 Q So what did you do?
8 A We, uh, opened up the -- the hood of the, uh -- to
9 the engine compartment, and , uh, to checks -- I was
10 thinking that the battery was probably dead .
11 Q And what did you find when you opened up the hood
12 and looked under the hood?
13 A Well , it ' s -- like i n dicated in t h is particular, uh,
14 photograph, Exhibit 167, the battery cables were
15 disconnected .
16 Q And that's how you found the vehicle on -- when
17 you saw it on November 7 of 2005 in your, um, bay
18 at the Crime Lab?
19 A Yes. And I believe that actually it was November 8,
20 the second day that we were doing examinati ons
21 that - - on that vehicle . Uh , it hadn't been checked
22 prior to this, so this is the way it would have come
23 into the laboratory .
24 Q And when you opened up the hood of the vehicle,
25 um, were you wearing gloves?
142
1 A Yes, I was.
2 Q And what type of gloves were you wearing?
3 A Nitron .
4 Q And -- And what are those? Why -- why are those
5 and why do you wear them?
6 A Oh. They're -- they're like a, uh -- a surgeon's

7 gloves. We put them on so we're not transferring any
8 of our DNA onto a, uh, object or piece of evidence,
9 and we're not , also , uh , receiving any evidence
10 evidence from he object, themselves . So we're
11 protecting the surface of anything that we touch as
12 far as evidentiary value.
13 Q Thank you, sir .
14 ATTORNEY GAHN : That's all I have, Your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: Cross?
17 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Thank you, Your
18 Honor .
21 Q Mr. Stahlke, what, precisely, if any, is actually
22 your area of specialty in the lab?

23 A Uh, I've got I don't have a specific specialty any
24 longer. I
25 Q Go ahead.
143
1 A I have -- I ' m the training -- training -- forensic
2 science training coordinator, so I have many job
3 dut ies.
4 Q Well, given the fact that it ' s a lab, I would
5 expect that that would encompass overseeing t he
6 training of a multitude of, urn, disciplines
7 within the lab? Is that a fair statement?
8 A Well , in my particular area , it would be more for
9 those people that are involved in field response .
10 Not any specific discipline .
11 Q Okay. All right . But you have to agree,
12 obviously, that field response encompasses a
13 mul ti tude of disciplines; correct?
14 A Well , you hope to have some, uh, knowledge in all
15 areas , yes .
16 Q Could we call you, then, urn, a jack-of-all-
17 trades in the forensic busines s?
18 ATTORNEY GAHN: Objection, Your Honor.
19 I'm sorry. Objection to the form of that
20 question.
21 THE COURT : Overruled.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I would -- I would
23 probably be more considered a criminalist, and
24 that's an individual that has, uh , general
25 general skills or knowledge in multiple areas .
144
1 Q All right . So you don't have a speci f ic
2 specialty?
3 A It's not in my title , no.
4 Q Whether it's in your title or not, by way of
5 practice -- Wel l , let me ask you this : Besides
6 blood spatter interpretation , what other areas,

7 if any, have you testified to as an expert and in
8 courts in Wisconsin?
9 A Controlled substances .
10 Q Are we talking -- Okay. Let me just -- So I'm
11 clear, are you talking about running gas
12 chromatograph to determine what a substance might
13 be?
14 A Correct .
15 Q Okay .
16 A That ' s one. We have a -- With all the other
17 presumptive tests as well.
18 Q Right.
19 A Sure .
20 Q Dr ug And drug tests.
21 A Drug testing
22 Q Okay .
23 A -- right . Controlled substances. Urn, and
24 document -- questioned documents.
25 Q Anything else?
145
1 A Crime scenes and blood spatter.
2 Q Well, crime scenes are pretty broad; right?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Okay. Blood spatter's pretty specific?
5 A That 1 s true.
6 Q As they would call it a sub-discipline of crime
7 scene investigation?
8 A That 1 s true.
9 Q All right . Now, I take it during your
10 undergraduate studies that you said I think
11 you said that was, uh -- you had -- was it a B . S .
12 in chemistry?
13 A B.S in medical technology with a minor in chemistry.
14 Q Okay . And you 1 ve been at the Wisconsin Lab for
15 15 years; right?
16 A Approximate ly. It will be June, actually, when it's
17 15 years.
18 Q Okay . And in that time you -- I believe you
19 testified on direct you've testified as an expert
20 ten times over the course of the 15 years in --
21 involving blood spatter?
23 Q Okay. So less than once a year ?
24 A For blood stain cases, that would be -- if you'd take
25 the average , yes.
146
1 Q All right. When you first began your testimony
2 and you were describing different types of
3 stains, I believe you said there's three?
4 Passive, projected, and contact? Is that your
5 understanding?
6 A These are the three categories of types of stains,
7 yes . So -- And then each category, uh, has other
8 stains, more specific characteristics .
9 Q Okay . And where would impact stains come in?
10 A The projected stains.
11 Q All right. If an individual is struck with
12 different types of instruments, you've learned
13 over the course of your experience and training
14 that, uh, different types of patterns emerge;
15 right?
16 A There is a likelihood, or a possibility, I guess,
17 that that could have -- you could see those
18 differences, yes .
19 Q We l l, don't you base much of your interpretation
20 and conclusions For example, State asked you
21 here a few minutes ago, um, do you have an

22 opinion about whether, uh, a body was placed in
23 the back of the RAV 4? And you -- you based
24 You said, yes, and you based your opinion upon

25 the -- the stains that you observed; r ight?
147
1 A Wasn't your question about whether or not we could
2 distinguish the types of weapons that were used?
3 Q Well, I'm getting to that . But you -- you
4 answered that, and I assume that the answer that,
5 yes, a body was placed back there, was based upon
6 the interpretation of those patterns and stains
7 that you observed?
8 A That has nothing to do with weapons.
9 Q I understand that . You would expect, for
10 example , if a firearm were used, a different type
11 of pattern, um, than you would if someone cut
12 themselves with a with a knife?
13 A If I'm looking at stains that were generated from a
14 firearm or -- and comparing them to stains that were
15 generated from a passive drop or bleeding from a -- a
16 cut or a wound to the finger , yes, I would see
17 differences .
18 Q That wasn't my question . My ques -- Let -- let's

19 use this as a hypothetical.
20 A Please repeat your question .
21 Q Okay. I 'll do my best. Would you expect a
22 difference in patterning from a gunshot wound as
23 opposed to a stab wound?
24 A And I would describe that as differences in their
25 characteristics .
148
1 Q Pard me?
2 A Yes .
3 Q In the back of the RAV 4, the blood that you
4 described that you saw over toward the speaker
5 area , not on the back , but on t he side where you
6 talked about the spa -- you used your spaghetti
7 example ?
8 A Correct .
9 Q Oka y. I 'm assumi ng that's where you concluded
10 that it would be consistent with the hair being
11 placed ; right?
13 Q Toward the -- Well, let me ask you this: The --
14 What we re the dimensions -- the i ns ide
15 dimensions -- of the back of the RAV 4?
16 A I have a width, is all . I don't have the -- the
17 depth of that particular cargo area.
18 Q So I take it, then , you -- you don't have an
19 opinion? Or you do have an opinion as to how a
20 body wi th bloody hair was placed -- located

21 within the back of t he RAV 4? Do you have an
22 opinion?
23 A Yes , I do .
24 Q Other than where the head was located?
25 A I have an opinion . My opinion was that a -- a n
149
1 individual that's 5 ' 6 would fit in the storage area
2 of that RAV 4 .
3 Q Wel l, probab ly not a t ota l l ength , though ; right?
4 A No .
5 Q Okay . But you don't -- you don't have an opinion
6 as to -- If that ' s where the head was , do you
7 have an opinion where the feet were?
8 A No . I haven ' t -- Common sens e would say tha t the
9 feet were at the other end . Head at the top , feet at
10 the other end .
11 Q And somewhere in between there --
12 A Would be the torso .
13 Q Exactly . And as a ma t -- a nd -- and the -- from
14 your examination , am I correct in stating that
15 you found absolutely no evidence by way of blood
16 pattern evidence to suggest an active wound in
17 the torso area of this body?
18 A Repeat that question .
19 Q Am I correct in stating that you found absolutely
20 no evidence , given how you believed the body was
21 placed in the back of the RAV 4 , for you to
22 concl ude that there was a wound i n the torso area
23 of the body?
24 A There is no direct evidence from the stains that
25 were -- uh , that I examined in that particular, uh,
150
1 cargo area of this RAV 4 that would indicate the
2 position of those -- or location of any wounds other
3 than the ones that were indicative to bloody hair,
4 which would then indicate that that bloody hair is
5 head hair, and that there was a blood source or a --
6 you would then assume a wound to the head .
7 Q And I assume your answer would be the same that
8 you found no indirect evidence, because you said
9 there was no direct evidence that you noticed?
10 And there was no indirect? I guess I 'm ask --
11 Distinguish for me, if --
12 A I can - -
13 Q - - you can , the difference between direct and
14 indirect?
15 A I can tell you that those stains that were on the
16 threshold area, the stains that were on the inner
17 fro nt panel of the rear door, I cannot , uh,
18 distinguish the location from -- on a body that those
19 stains could have originated from. They could have
20 been from anywhere on the body. Any bloody source
21 could have caused those stains when blood was flung

22 from any part of the body.
23 The only ones that I can positively

24 identify, or distinguish, from any other part of
25 the body would be the -- the stains that were
151
1 textbook stains for, uh, bloody head hair that
2 were transferred to the area just behind the rear
3 of the passenger seat .
4 Q Okay. Let me ask you this, then , Mr. Stahlke:
5 Given your experience, the assumptions you've
6 made about the location of the body, assume that
7 this body had at least one, and perhaps two,
8 stabbing wounds to the torso area, would you not
9 expect to find some pooled -- some blood in the
10 area between where you believe the head was and
11 where the feet were?
12 A Well, that's a fair question, and I saw some -- some
13 swipe patterns between the -- the area -- or the
14 threshold of the door, or the vehicle, and that
15 rear -- rear passenger seat. Now --
16 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, if the
17 Court p le ase --
18 A outside of that
19 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Would -- would
20 the -- I hate to interrupt the witness, Your
21 Honor, but I would ask that the witness be
22 directed to answer the question. I didn't ask
23 about sweat .
24 THE COURT: It's about swiped.
25 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
152
1 THE COURT : He's talking about swipe .
2 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I -- Go ahead.
3 THE COURT: I think that's part of the
4 answer . So why don't you finish your answer ,
5 please .
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you . Those are the
7 only stains that I saw between -- on that
8 carpeted area in t hat cargo area . I would expect
9 that if we had an individual that had multiple
10 wounds, especially to the torso area, that you
11 would see additional staining .
12 Now, the lack of stains · would -- may
13 indicate that you have some, uh, surface or some
14 object that was underneath, between the -- the
15 blood source and that carpeted area, which then
16 was removed with the body, let's say, and would
17 prevent any blood, then, from transferring onto
18 that carpeted area .
19 Q Well, Mr. Stahlke, in connection with your, um,
20 duties as the , uh, training coordinator for the
21 response teams -- Let -- Let -- Just let me ask
22 you this : Given what you know about this, when
23 that RAV 4 got to the lab , there 's no reason for
24 you to even remotely s uggest that there was
25 anything other than what appeared as t he -- at
153
1 the carpet level , in between, prior to it coming
2 to the lab, is there?
3 A I -- No . We jus t examine and -- and make note of
4 those observations . This was just your -- your
5 speculation, or your your probing that I came up
6 with that hypothesis .
7 Q Okay. But there was nothing to suggest that tha t
8 hypothe sis has any ba si s, in fact, in this
9 particular incident as far as that vehicle goes?
10 A I have no, um, reason to believe that . No .
11 Q All right. As far as the timing of when stains
12 that you discover appeared, you conducted no
13 exami nation to determine the relat ionship, for
14 example , between the stain present by the
15 ignition switch in relation to the s t ain you
16 obser~ed in -- on the back door inside panel?

17 A No, I cannot determine a time line from comparing two
18 stains in this particular case .
19 Q Or in any case?
20 A I n some cases you can get a feeling for the age of a
21 stain .
22 Q Okay . But, certainly, not any degree of, uh,
23 expertise that you' d be able to render an opinion

24 on that?
25 A At least not with, uh -- within a short time frame,
154
1 no.
2 Q If someone's Have you had occasion to be
3 involved in the examination of scenes where an
4 individual has had their throat cut?
5 A Yes, I have .
6 Q Can you describe for the benefit of this jury
7 what sort of pattern is likely to result when
8 that occurs?
9 A Well, there's obviously a lot of blood, and depending
10 on the variables involved, uh, you can have a -- a
11 large amount spread over a -- a great -- a large
12 area, or you can have it confined to a small space.
13 But in either case, you'll have a a large amount
14 of blood direct ly below, uh , the area where that
15 throat was cut .
16 Q So if an individual, for example, had their
17 throat cut while they were on a bed, you would
18 expect to find a great deal of blood in that
19 area; would you not?
20 A Well, yes. Especially if the body -- if the person
21 is still alive at that point.
22 Q All right.
23 A If they If they' re already dead, of course, then
24 there's not going to be, uh, as much blood flow
25 because there ' s no -- there's no heart -- or blood
155
1 pressure. Uh, there would be draining blood.
2 However, you -- you'd still see some blood from a
3 thro - - cut throat .
4 Q In this particular case, urn, did you ever go to
5 what you understood to be the Avery property?
6 A No, I did not.
7 Q So you never were asked to go inside of a garage
8 to do any examination for blood pattern evidence?
9 A I was not involved in any of scene work there, no .
10 Q If an individual is struck from a projectile from
11 a firearm , there are distinctive patt erns that
12 emerge; is that correct?
13 A If you have the classic gunshot, uh, wound, high
14 velocity spatter from a gunshot wound, uh, there are
15 some, uh, stains that are indicative of -- of that
16 type of wounding, yes.
17 Q Is it a fair statement that the patterning that
18 emerges as a result of a gunshot wound, as
19 compared to a stabbing-type wound, would tend to ,
20 and typically, uh, cover, or be able to -- it
21 would -- it would spread out a little further is
22 what I'm trying to say?
23 A A gunshot wound?
24 Q Right.
25 A Not necessarily .
156
1 Q All right. Are there any differences between the
2 patterns that emerge from a gunshot wound to a
3 head as opposed to, for example, an arm?

4 A Yes, there are some indications, uh, that you can
5 gather from that, that would be different.
6 Q But it is fair to say that there are patterns ,

7 which you understand through your training and
8 experience, that when you look at, you can
9 conclude this was as a result of a gunshot wound?

10 A Yes. If those patterns are present, uh, those
11 patterns will give you some indication of the -- or
12 may give you some indication -- of the type of weapon
13 that was used, uh, to -- to create them.

14 Q When you say "type of weapon" are you able to
15 distinguish , for example, between a small caliber
16 rifle, say a .2 2 caliber, and, say, a

17 .30 caliber?
18 A Typically, the larger the caliber, the greater the,

19 uh, amount of stains that are going to be present or
20 created.
21 Q You talked about the gravity effect of the -- on
22 blood on the back door inside panel. Blood does
23 not flow, necessarily, at a uniform rate, does

24 it?
25 A I believe that it would -- it would flow at a uniform
157
1 rate on the same or similar surface.
2 Q On the same what?
3 A Same or similar surface.
4 Q You're --
5 A So if -- if you put blood -- throw blood onto a glass
6 surface, it will flow at the same rate .
7 Q Irregardless of the source of the blood?
8 A Irregardless of the source? No . It would still be
9 the same substance that is striking the surface.
10 You're talking about a large enough amount to
11 cause -- cause the flow?
12 Q Well, you described on the back panel the flow
13 pattern? What you called elliptical; right?
14 A Um-hmm.
15 Q Okay. Of some blood that hit that back panel and
16 that basically dripped down a little bit. My
17 question is, is t h ere a uniform flow rate for
18 human blood?
19 A I don't know that there is actually a uniform flow
20 rate, but through my experimentation and testing,
21 blood is blood. If you throw it on a similar
22 surface, it's going to flow at the same rate .
23 Q When you examined the -- Well, strike that.
24 Other than the photographs that we've all had a
25 chance to look at here today , and I'm talking
158
1 about the area in the back of the RAV 4 where you
2 believe there was -- there was hair, um, other
3 than the photographs, did you bring with you, um,
4 any portion of t hat plastic molding -- that
5 molded area with so the jury could see it
6 today?
7 A No, I did not.
8 Q And I take it you did not see any evidence
9 whatsoever Well, let me ask you : When you
10 examine those type of patterns, um, and you know
11 that it's been caused by hair, are you able to
12 tell anything about that other than the fact that
13 you believe i t was hair?
14 A Well, sometimes you can get a -- an -- a feeling for
15 the -- if there was some direction. Uh, other
16 than -- other than the contact that I saw that was
17 indicative of a transfer of of blood from bloody
18 head hair, no, there was no other indication in that
19 stain that I could gather --
20 Q So
21 A any additional information on.
22 Q So you would have no opinion as to whether or not
23 the -- How did I -- I want to use the same
24 term you did . Did you call it swiping? Or
25 wiping?
159
1 A Swipe. Well, there's swipes and wipes. One's with
2 blood and one's without blood.
3 Q Okay. The - - the portion that you talked about
4 with the -- the blood evident, though, that was
5 the swipe wi th the hair?
6 A Excuse me. Say that again?
7 Q I'm just talking about the hair, okay?
8 A The the hair transfer stain?
9 Q Right .
10 A Okay.
11 Q Okay . Was that -- do you -- you use the term
12 "swipe" for that?
14 Q What term did you use?
15 A That was a contact transfer .
16 Q All right. As to that particular contact
17 transfer, were you able to make -- or did you
18 make any additional findings regardi ng , um, for
19 example, the length of the hair?
21 Q Did you discern from your visual observations any
22 differences in the pattern that would set --
23 suggest that it was a n ything other than uniform
24 length?
25 A No, I never saw anything that would indicate.
160
1 Q Would you be able to determine t hat based upon
2 your experience, training, and education?
3 A Unlikely. Because, typically, bloody head hair ,

4 uh -- it will leave a -- a textbook stain. However,
5 it won' t, necessarily, tell me t he entire length of
6 that -- of the hair that was on that person's head .

7 It could maybe give me an indicator of the total
8 length, but then that's, uh, a stretch, too, because
9 we don't know, uh, if it's just a portion of that
10 hair that contacted the surface, and if it -- if
11 it could be long strands and we only get a small

12 portion that contacted the surface. So, it would
13 we'd be guessing if we wanted to come up with an
14 entire length of that hair.
15 Q Do you understand what I mean by the -- Does the
16 term ''blowback" have any significance to you in
17 your experience with, uh, blood spatter

18 examination?
19 A Yes, it does.
20 Q Okay. Is it fair to say that you performed no

21 tests, no examinations, in the lab to determine
22 whether or not there was any blowback evident in
23 this particular case?
24 A I did not.
25 Q You weren't asked to?
161
1 A No .
2 Q Okay . And just so everybody's aware , can you
3 explain very briefly what blowback really means?
4 A Blowback is generally related to a -- a firearm , or a
5 gunshot wound, and when a projectile leaves the end
6 of the, uh, the barrel and strikes a -- a surface
7 causing, um, some blood spatter , there is a -- some
8 energy that returns back toward the gun, and that
9 would be considered blowback .
10 Now , you can also view it as general
11 terminology , too . Anything that , uh, comes back
12 from a -- a particular wound is maybe considered ,
13 as a general term, as blowback.
14 Q Right . But it -- it's not uncommon , though, in,
15 uh, a case -- an investigation involving, uh,
16 homicide, and there ' s a firearm involved, to
17 request that type of examination on a suspected
18 weapon? Is that a fair statement?
19 A I think that's -- that 's been requested before, yes.
20 Q Fairly regularly where there ' s a gun involved?
21 In your experience .
22 A I -- You know, it -- it's not your , um -- your fairly
23 regular question -- or um, request , but it definitely
24 has -- does -- is requested.
25 Q And I take it you've done those type of
162
1 examinations previously in your career?
2 A I have examined, urn , guns or firearms for the
3 presence of it , yes.
4 Q But in this case nobody asked you to do that?
5 A I did not see the weapon , no .
6 Q Okay . All right. Thank you .
7 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Pass the witness .
8 ATTORNEY GAHN: J ust a couple questions,
9 Your Honor .
11 BY ATTORNEY GAHN :
12 Q Mr. Stahlke, the blood patterns, or the b l ood
13 s tains , that you observed in the threshold area
14 of the , u~ , cargo -- of the rear cargo area of
15 Teresa Halbach ' s car , or on the bumper, um, you
16 would not be able to tell whether those blood
17 stains came from the head area of Teresa or any
18 other part of her t orso?
20 Q And, um, when you talked about, um, blood from a,
21 um -- a cut to the neck , or a -- a throat being
22 cut, the amount of b lood would determi ne how
23 large the cut is? How deep i t is ; corre ct?
24 A Well, it -- it can be the size of the wound and it
25 could also be a matter of time .
163
1 Q I mean, if an artery or aorta or something is
2 hit, you will, but if there is -- I mean,
3 someone -- you can cut your throat shaving and
4 you're not going to have a l ot of blood?
5 A No.
6 Q You can have a superficial cut to the neck and
7 there's not going to be a lot of blood?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And the same thing from your analysis, or crime
10 scenes, a single stab wound to the torso, say the
11 stomach area, or even the chest area, may be all
12 internal bleeding as opposed to any external
13 bleeding; is that fair to say?
14 A Well, that's true . And it -- There's other variables
15 as well. It could be you could have clothing on , or
16 something on t hat order, and it can trap the blood
17 that's - - had been, uh, leaking out of that, or
18 projected out of that, particular wound as well .
19 Q And -- and, finally , with, um, regard to blood
20 stain patterns , um , and how they're left , blood
21 stain patterns also can be, uh, cleaned up, can't
22 they, afterwards, and there wouldn't be any
23 patterns available?
24 A That's true .
25 Q Correct? And someone could use bleach to clean
164
1 up blood, uh , stains?
2 A Yes .
3 Q And that could destroy , um , any, uh, future
4 fi nding of t he biological substance, or DNA, or
5 whatever it may be? Is that fair to say?
6 A That's fair to say .
7 Q Thank you . That ' s all I have .
8 THE COURT : Any recro ss?
9 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : Just one .
12 Q There's absolutely nothing that you saw on the
13 back of that RAV 4 suggested use of bleach ;
14 correct or incorrect?
15 A I do not have any -- any information of that . No . I
16 didn ' t see anything that would indicate that . No.
17 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : That ' s all.
19 ATTORNEY FALLON: State would call Susan
20 Brandt . Hold on. Excuse me.
21 ATTORNEY GAHN: Your Honor, I would
22 offer, um, the exhibits, um -- just one second
23 165, 166 and 167 into evide nce.
24 THE COURT : Any objection?
165
1 THE COURT: Received .
2 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand .
3 SUSAN BRANDT,
5 sworn, was examined and testified as follo ws:
6 THE CLERK : Please be seated. Please state
8 THE WITNESS : Susan Brandt, B- r - a-n-d-t .
11 Q What do you do for a living at this time?
12 A I'm a stay-at-home mom.
13 Q All right . And , um , how many children do you
14 have?
15 A Three .
16 Q All right. What is your, um, educational
17 training?
18 A I have a Bachelor ' s in psychology and a Master's in
19 counselor education .
20 Q All right. And when did you receive your
21 Bachelor's Degree?
22 A I graduated, um, December of 2002 .
23 Q And from which institution?
24 A The University of Wisconsin-Plattevi lle .
25 Q And your Masters Degree, uh , when did you receive
166
1 that ?
2 A I graduated May of 2006.
3 Q All right. And from which institution?
4 A The University of Wisconsin-Plattevi l le also.
5 Q Directing your attention to a time period of
6 January, 2006 until May of 2006, while you were a
7 student, did you have any internship or
8 employment associated with your pursuit of your
9 Master's Degree?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And where were you employed?
12 A I was an intern at Mishicot Middle School and
13 Mishicot High School .
14 Q All right. Tell us about your internship
15 arrangement at the , uh, middle school?
16 A I had worked with, um, Karen Baumgartner in the
17 middle school guidance office in the morning, and in
18 the afternoon I worked with Amber Fox-Brewer in the
19 afternoon.
20 Q And that was at t he high school?
21 A At the high school.
22 Q All right. And were you, um, a t the schools on a
23 daily basis i n your i nternship capacity?
24 A Yes . I worked, um, Monday through Thursday, and I
25 had Fridays off .
167
1 Q Um , directing your attention to January of 2006,
2 early January, did you have occasion to have
3 contact with a student by the name of Kayla
4 Avery?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Um, would you describe for us, um , first and
7 foremost, um, how that contact occurred?
8 A Kayla came into the counseling office and asked to
9 speak to a counselor .
10 Q All right . And, um, who was present when she
11 came in and asked to speak with a counselor?
12 A It was myself and Karen Baumgartner.
13 Q Tell us what happened?
14 A Kayla came in, um, to the office, and, um, she was
15 asked by Ms. Baumgarner -- Ms. Baumgartner if she
16 minded that I was there , and Kayla said, no. And she
17 said she was there because she was feeling scared.
18 Q All right. Let me stop you there , first, and ask
19 who else, if anyone, was present for this
20 conversation?
21 A No one else.
22 Q All right. So there's just the three of you?
23 A Correct.
24 Q All right. And did Kayla reveal to the two of
25 you why she was feeling scared and why she wanted
16 8
1 to talk?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And what did she tell you?
4 A She told us that she was scared, um, because her
5 uncle, Steven Avery , had asked one of her cousins to
6 help move a body.
7 Q All right. What else , if anything , did she tell
8 you about that?
9 A She also said she was scared about go ing to the shop,
10 um, and she, specifically , asked if blood can come up
11 through concrete .
12 Q All right . Now, was -- Did she identify which of
13 her cousins may have been asked by her uncle,
14 Steven Avery , to move this body?
15 A No.
16 Q All right. Describe for us, if you will, Kayla's
17 demeanor, her affect , during these revelations?
18 A She - - She was scared .
19 Q All right . Did she seem at all confused?
20 A No.
21 Q Was this the first time you , um, ever, uh, had
22 contact with Kayla?
23 A Yes .
24 Q All right . Um, your best estimate, approximately
25 how long did this conversation take?
169
1 A My best guess would be 15 or 20 minutes.
2 Q All right . How was Kayla's demeanor at the
3 conclusion of this discussion?
4 A I think she still felt scared, but maybe a little bit
5 more relieved.
6 Q All right. Did she , at the end of the
7 conversation, urn, seem confused by anything that
8 she was telling you?
9 A No .
10 ATTORNEY FALLON: I'll pass the witness.
11 THE COURT: Cross .
14 Q You said this was the first time you've met
15 Kayla?
16 A Yes , that's correct .
17 Q So you had no perspective as to what her norma l
18 demeanor is?
19 A No.
20 Q Don't know if she's normally a scared girl?
21 A No.
22 Q You had, uh, no way of telling whether she was
23 telling you the tru th ; correct?
24 A Correct .
25 ATTORNEY FALLON: Objection. Improper
170
1 question. Commenting on the veracity .
2 THE COURT : I -- You're correct. Uh, the
3 object ion's sustained. Credibility is solely to be
4 judged by -- by this jury.
5 ATTORNEY FALLON: Move to s t rike.
6 THE COURT : Motion granted . Question is
7 struck .
8 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) You don't have any
9 Again, because this is the first time you met
10 her, you don't know her reputation for telling
11 the truth; correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Now, you indicated t hat you had both, uh, a -- a
14 Bachelor's Degree and -- were -- did you have a
15 Mas ter's at this point?
16 A No .
17 Q We re you working on it? This was the i nternship
18 p o rtion of the Master's?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And you've taken a number of classes in child
21 d e ve l opment?
22 A Yes .
23 Q Number of classes, uh, or courses of study that
24 d ea l with, um, children in general?
25 A Yes .
171
1 Q It -- Is it fair to state in your studies that,
2 uh, one -- maybe not a common -- theme with
3 children is that they sometime -- sometimes are
4 looking for attention ; is that correct?
5 A Sometimes.
6 Q Okay. And they do things tha t sometimes it's
7 just intended to draw attention to themselves?
8 A Correct.
9 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I have nothing else .
13 Q Was there any point during t his meeting that you
14 thought she was just there to get some a t tention?
15 A No.
16 ATTORNEY FALLON: That's it.
17 THE COURT : All right . The witness may
18 step down.
19 ATTORNEY KRATZ: State would call Jodi
20 Sta chowski to the stand .
21 THE CLERK: Please raise your right
22 hand.
23 JODI STACHOWSKI ,
25 sworn, was examined and testifi ed as follows:
172
3 THE WITNESS : Jodi Stachowski,
4 S-t- a-c-h-o-w- s-k-i.
7 Q Ms. Stachowski , you'll have to speak right into
8 the microphone so that we can all hear what
9 you're saying . Ms . Stachowski, in , um -- during
10 the year 2005 , and up to and including Halloween
11 of 2005 , were you involved in a , uh , relationship
12 with an individua l?
13 A Yes , I was .
14 Q Who was that relationship with?
15 A Steven Avery.
16 Q And what, in fact , was your relationship with
17 Mr . Avery during that year?
18 A I was his fiance.
19 Q Ms . Stachowski, I'm going to direct your
20 attention to October 31 of 2005, uh, ask if you'd
21 tell the jury, please , where you were physically,
22 uh, located that day , if you recall?
23 A I was in the Manitowoc Coun ty Jai l.
24 Q And can you tell the jurors, please, why it was
25 that you were in jail at that time?
173
1 A For a fifth drunk driving.
2 Q All right. During your stay at the Manitowoc
3 County Jail, uh, which included, uh, Halloween of
4 2005, did you have occasion to remain in contact
5 with your then fiance , Steven Avery?
6 A Yes , I did.
7 Q When was it, Ms. Stachowski, that you went into
8 jail? That is , when was i t that you had to
9 report to jail, if you can remember?
10 A I believe it was in August .
11 Q All right. And how long of a stay? That is , how
12 long were you scheduled to be in jail from
13 August, '05?
14 A Seven months .
15 Q Between August, then, and October 31 of '05, uh,
16 how regularly would you remain i n contact wi th
17 Mr. Avery?
18 A I talked to him once a day.
19 Q Were there any occasions, Ms. Stachowski, when
20 you would talk to Mr. Avery on more than one
21 occasion during a particular day?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q All right . And how would those conversations
24 occur? In other words, were they in person or
25 were they on the telephone?
174
1 A On the telephone.
2 Q Could you tell the jurors, please, how those
3 phone calls would be placed? That is, wou l d you
4 place the calls t o Mr . Avery or would he call
5 you?
6 A I had to call him collect.
7 Q Let me ask you, Ms. Stachowski, do you remember
8 October 31 of 2005? And, specifically, do you
9 remember placing any calls to your f iance, Steven
10 Avery?
11 A Yes .
12 Q On October 31 , 2005, on how many occasions did
13 you talk to Mr . Avery?
14 A I called Steven t wice that day .
15 Q And could you tell the jurors about what times
16 those two calls were placed?
17 A The first one was about 5:30, and then the second one
18 about 9:30.
19 Q All right. Are those estimates, Ms. Stachowski?
20 A As close as I can remember, yes.
21 Q How long would those phone calls last?
22 A Fifteen minutes .
23 Q And how do you know they lasted 15 minutes? In
24 other words, was there somethi ng with the jail
25 that - -
175
1 A Yeah . They just disconnected after 15 minutes .
2 Q All right. Ms. Stachowski, the last area of --
3 of inquiry I have for you for this trial is the,
4 um, arrangement or setup of Mr. Avery's, um,
5 trailer . First of all, are you familiar with,
6 uh, Mr. Avery's, um, residence? With his
7 trailer?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you live in tha t trailer prior to you having
10 to go to jail in August of '0 5?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q And at the time tha t you lived there , did you and
13 Mr . Ave ry share the same bedroom?
14 A Yes .
15 Q Describe , if you will, um, the kind of furniture
16 that Mr. Avery had, or that you and Mr. Avery
17 shared, in his bedroom? Uh, that is, prior to
18 you going into jail.
19 A There was the bed, a filing cabinet, a desk, a
20 bookcase , dresser, and a TV .
21 Q All right . Do you remember, Ms. Stachowski ,
22 prior to your going into the jail, if Mr. Avery
23 had any, uh, gun rac ks or firearms on the wall?
24 A There was a gun rack with two guns on the wall.
25 Q Do you know what kind of guns those were? If you
176
1 don't, that's fine. I'm just --
2 A No.
3 Q just asking. Al l r i ght . I 1 m going to show
4 you what has been received as Exhibit No . 73 .
5 This is a computer-generated diagram . Um, first
6 of all, at least from the standpoint of having a
7 bed, uh, a desk, a bookcase , uh, and a
8 nightstand, or filing cabinet , and a dresser,
9 assuming that 1 s what that is down there, uh, is
10 that the same kind of furniture that Mr. Avery
11 and you had in that bedroom before you went into
12 jail?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, before you went into jail , looking at
15 Exhibit No. 73, was the room set up or configured
16 that way?
17 A No, it wasn't .
18 Q Could you tell the jurors, please, how it was
19 different? What -- First of all, where was the
20 bed when -- uh, when you went into jail? How was
21 it situated?
22 A In the corner underneath the two windows. When you
23 first walk in the door, you'd walk straight into the

24 bed.
25 Q All right . And so if I 1 m taking a laser pointer,
177
1 uh, and pointing, um, what would be to the, uh,
2 top right, or towards the bottom left, uh, is it
3 a fair characterization that the bed was facing
4 this way?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Which, uh, side, or which wall was the headboard

7 on?
8 A The headboard was on the farthest wal l , the smal l
9 window.
10 Q And I'm pointing, uh, to, uh , the wall, which
11 would be the east wall, of the trailer . Um, is
12 that the wall that the h eadboard was on?
13 A Yes .
14 Q The headboard was here and the bed was, uh,
15 along, um, that way; is that -- is that correct?
17 Q Okay . Now, was the bed all the way against this
18 right -hand or , uh, south wall, or was it away
19 from the wall?
20 A It was against the wall.

21 Q So it was abutted all the way up against --
22 A Yeah.
23 Q the wall? The, um -- This bookcase, um, that

24 we see, uh, depicted in Exhibit No ., uh , 73, can
25 you tell us where that was located while you were
178
1 there?
2 A That was located on the wall where the bed is
3 underneath the guns .
4 Q All rig ht. And where was the nightstand?
5 A Next to the bed.
6 Q Um - -
7 A Like right there. Yeah.
8 Q Would be right next to the door?
9 A Yep .
10 Q So the nightstand would be here, a nd the bed
11 would -- would -- would be thi s way right next to
12 it ; is that right?
13 A Ye s .
14 Q All right . A -- assuming that this dresser --
15 and I can show you a no ther version if I need
16 to -- but assuming the dresser is kind of
17 kitty- corner , uh, in the, uh, southwest corn er of
18 t h e bedroom, would that h ave been in about the
19 same place?
20 A Yes .
21 Q I'm going to show you one more photo just to kind
22 of orient us. This is Exhibit No. 75 . I think
23 you've told us that the bed was alo ng, uh , t his
24 wall with the h eadboard underneath, uh , the east
25 window ; is that correct?
179
2 Q As you loo ked down this hallway , then -- This is
3 a hal lway ; i s that right ?
4 A Yes .
5 Q As you l ooked down this hallway , uh , and through
6 the open doorway, uh , would you be able, then , to
7 see the bed?
8 A Yes , you would .
9 Q All right .
10 ATTORNEY KRATZ : That's all the
11 questions today for Ms . Stachowski , then, Judge .
12 Thank you .
13 THE COURT : Cou ns el ? Cross ?
14 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : I guess I just have
15 one -- Excuse me . I just have one question .
18 Q Your testimony is essentially that the
19 configuration of the bedroom in August is
20 different t han the picture here?

21 A Yes.
22 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No thing else .
24 ATTORNEY KRATZ: This might be a good
25 time for our afternoon break, Judge .
180
1 THE COURT : All right . We'll take 15
2 minutes. We'll be back at approximately quarter
3 well, ten -- ten of three.
4 (Recess had at 2 : 33 p.m.)
5 (Reconvened at 2 :54 p.m.)
6 THE COURT : Your next witness, Counsel?
7 ATTORNEY FALLON: State would call
8 Mr. Tom Sturdivant .
9 THOMAS STURDIVANT,
10 called as a wi t ness herein, having been first duly
14 THE WITNESS: Special Agent Thomas Allen
15 Sturdivant. It's S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n-t .
18 Q What do you do for a living?
19 A I 'm a special agent with the Wisconsin Department of
20 Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation ,
21 Narcotics Bureau .
22 Q How long have you been employed for t he Wisconsin
24 A Since 1998.
25 Q Prior to that time, did you hold any other law
181
1 enforcement, um, positions?
2 A I did. I worked for the, uh, Maine State Police in
3 the state of Maine .

4 Q And how long did you work for the Maine State
5 Police?
6 A Approximately 11 years .
7 Q Uh, you indicated your current assignment is the
8 Narcotics Bureau for the Division of Criminal
9 Investigation. Prior to that assignment, did you

10 have any other assignment?
11 A Yes . I worked in both the Financial Crimes Bureau,

12 as well as the Arson Bureau .
13 Q And how much time did you spend in the Arson
14 Bureau?
15 A Approximately two years.
16 Q During what time frame would that have been

17 roughly?
18 A Oh, that would be roughly between 2003 and 2005 .
19 Q All right. Now, Mr. Sturdivant, I'd like to
20 direct your attention to, uh, Tuesday afternoon ,

21 November 8, 2005 . At that particular time were
22 you currently in the employ of the Department of
23 Justice?
24 A I was.
25 Q All right . Uh, on that particular day were you
182
1 asked to assist in execution of a search warrant
2 at the Avery Salvage Yard?
3 A I was.
4 Q And where is that salvage yard located,
5 generally? Which county?
6 A Uh, Manitowoc County.
7 Q Al l right. What, um , in particular, on that day,
8 were you asked to do?
9 A I was asked to do a couple of things . One was to
10 execute a search warrant at the Avery business. The
11 junkyard business . And , secondly, I was asked to go
12 out and take a look at so-called hot spots. These
13 were just areas that were identifi ed by the state
14 troopers as having some , um -- some - - some areas of
15 interest . Perhaps they might have been ashen sites ,
16 they might have been a motor vehicle, they might have
17 been a variety of other things.
18 Q All right . And i n terms of , um, one of these
19 spots, was there a time where you were asked --
20 or your attention was directed to an area behind
21 the garage identified as Steven Avery's garage?
22 A Yes. Uh, sometime after 1 : 30 , I was asked to go over
23 and take a look at some of these so-called places
24 that -- of interest , and one happened to be a -- a
25 behind the Steven Avery garage, and, uh, Manitowoc
183
1 officer, Jason Jost , was standing over what, uh, in
2 my opinion, was a a piece of charred, uh, bone
3 matter, which was about, uh, um, six or eight feet
4 from the pile of dirt behind the garage.
5 Q All right. And how was your attention directed
6 to that area?
7 A I think at some poi nt, um, we were asked to go out --
8 uh, prior to 1:30 -- go out and take a l ook at some
9 of these places of interest . And as I walked over
10 there, myself and Special Agent Deb Straus were
11 basically summoned by , uh, Deputy Jost to come over
12 and take a look at a n item that he was standing, uh,
13 near.
14 Q All right. And when your attention was directed
15 to that area, what did you, um -- what did you
16 do?
17 A Well, the first th ing I did is when I walked over
18 and -- and -- by the deputy, he pointed out this
19 piece of material that was lying on the ground , which
20 appeared to be about , uh -- about one inch in
21 length -- one one inch by one inch, wh ich appeared
22 to me, again, to be a piece of charred bone matter.
23 Q All right . Um, and to begin with, I'd like to ,
24 uh -- the skee (phonetic) the screen to , uh,
25 project, uh, Exhibit 132 , um , first , and then,
184
1 uh, we're going to have two more photographs
2 marked .
3 Om, your at tention is directed either to
4 the screen in front of you or the one to your
5 immediate left . Om, do you recognize that
6 particula r area? Exhibit 132?
7 A I do .
8 Q All r ight . Tell us about that. What is depicted
9 there?
10 A What is depicted here is a -- What is depicted here
11 is a pile of gravel, which I estimated to be
12 approximately 30 feet by 30 feet , um, whi ch gradually
13 rises to appr oximately two feet in height, and it's
14 sand and gravel piled up on the natural landscape .
15 And this was directl y behind the -- Steven Avery ' s
16 the , uh, detached t wo-car garage .
17 And in the center of this pit -- And in
18 the center of this , uh, 30-foot by 30 - foot pile
19 of gravel here was what I considered a -- or I --
20 I refer to it as a burn pit , which is about six
21 feet wide, and it appeared to me as though
22 somebody had come in with a six-foot scoop and
23 scooped out six feet of this gravel . This
24 wasn't -- The - - This pile of gravel wasn't
25 natural to the landscape. It had been placed on
185
1 top of the grass behind Steven Avery's garage .
2 Q All right.
3 A And the piece of bone fragment that I initially
4 Q We'll get to that in just a minute . I think we
5 have, uh, two more other photographs in front of
6 you that might be illustrative. Um, what are the
7 exhibit numbers on those photographs, please?
8 A The first one I looked at was Exhibit 0 - 4-1-8-0-7 .
9 I'm sorry, 06 CF 88 . Exhibit 168 .
10 Q Exhibit 168?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Thank you. All right. And, um, we're going to
13 have that projected in just a momen t . All right .
14 Now, um, the exhi bit which is depicted on the
15 screen now, is that 168?
16 A Yes, it is.
17 Q All right. Now, urn , is that a fair and accurate
18 portrayal of this burn area at the time you first
19 set eyes on it?
20 A Yes, i t is .
21 Q All right. We note that there is a , uh -- a
22 German or Belgian Shepherd appearing there?
23 A Yes .
24 Q Uh, was that dog prese nt when you first
25 discovered the area?
186
1 A Yes, it was.
2 Q Uh, tell us about that particular dog, if you
3 would?
4 A This was a large German Shepherd-type dog that was
5 a -- very aggressive , and would actua l ly lunge at
6 people as they walked towards this mound of dirt.

7 The doghouse was positioned on top of the dirt and
8 the dog could reach, um, around the mound of dirt.
9 Um , and, again, it was -- it was barking, it would
10 lunge at people, and -- and I was also told that the
11 dog might have bit a , uh , trooper .
12 ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Um, that -- that's
13 hearsay. Ask that it be stricken .
14 ATTORNEY FALLON : It's not a matter ,
15 uh --
16 THE COURT : It will -- It will --

17 Objection's sustai ned. Strike that l ast remark
18 about the dog biting .
19 ATTORNEY FALLON : All right .
20 Q (By Attorney Fallon) Now, I note that there is a

21 red, um, box- like, or shed, um, item which
22 appears on the left - hand side of the photograph.
23 What is that?
24 A That is the doghouse.
25 Q All right . Now, um, you have one other
187
1 photograph in front of you. Let's talk a little
2 bit about that.
3 A Okay .
4 Q Which photograph -- What exhibit number is that?
5 A That's Exhibit 169 .
6 Q All right. And what is depicted in Exhibit 169?
7 A Depicted in this photo are a number of things . The,
8 uh, swirl from the, uh , steel belt from the tires.
9 Q Let's use your, um, pointer, if you would, and --
10 A Sure.
11 Q -- identify for us what you believe is
12 steel-belted wiring?
13 A This is -- This is what I believe to be steel-belted
14 wiring from steel-belted tires. Another tire . Uh,
15 this is a burned out, uh -- the burned out --
16 completely consumed, urn, uh, seat from a, uh what
17 I thought might be a bench seat from a van. Urn,
18 also, in here, was, uh, what I believed to be bone
19 fragment intertwined within the steel-belted, uh,
20 tire , urn, stuff here .
21 Q All right. All righ t . Let's take these a little
22 bit, um, at a time . What was the first thing
23 about this area that drew your attention to this,
24 um, pit area as being, perhaps, somewhat
25 significant? Or at least interesting?
188
1 A Well, the first thing that drew my attention to this
2 burn pit was the bone fragment that was approximately
3 eight feet away f rom the burn pit . As you're looking
4 at this photo , that p i e ce of bone fragment was about
5 eight feet out this way .
6 Q All right . We're going to switch back to
7 Exhibit I believe it was 168?
8 A Okay .
9 Q And, urn, does that he lp y ou assist, perhaps, in
10 placing the area where the fragment is?
11 A Yes, it does . The bone fragme nt's located , I
12 estima ted , about eigh t feet away from the -- t h e burn
13 p it .
14 Q All right . Opon discovering that fragment , what
15 did you do?
16 A I -- I looked at t h e fragment . I d id not touch it .
17 And I was curious about this pit, so I walked ove r
18 towards the burn pit , l ooked at t h e burn pit, a nd
19 noticed what I believed to be other or additional
20 burned or charred bone matter wi thin this pile of
21 debris and around t h e burn pit .
22 Al so , there was wha t I believed to be
23 bone fragment intertwined in the steel belts --
24 the steel -- of the steel-belted, uh , material
25 h e re . And the other thing I did is I -- I had a
189
1 twig , I moved -- t here were leaves in this --
2 there's some leaves here, and I moved a couple
3 leaves, and noticed what I thought to be was, uh,
4 skull matter or skull bone fra gments, um, within
5 the -- the, uh, debris pile .
6 Q All right. Now, there -- Yeah. There appear to
7 be other implements, um, near the, uh, burn pile.
8 Um, could you identify those for us?
9 A Yes . I noticed a shovel, which was of a spade
10 design . I also noted a hammer, um, a rake . There
11 was a rake here as well . A screwdriver, um, and some
12 other things, uh, within the burn area .
13 Q All right . Upon making , um We're going to
14 have a few exhibits brought in for you to
15 examine . I'm having Investigator Wiegert hand
16 you what is marked as Exhibit 170 . Do you
17 recognize that item?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 Q And what is Exhibit No . 170?
20 A This is the rake that was, uh, at the -- the burn
21 site .
22 Q All right. And that is the one . All right . And
23 if we could have the officer show you 171? While
24 Investigator Wiegert is, um , taking that out,
25 just so the record is clear , would you describe
190
1 the condition of the rake first?
2 A It's, urn -- It's a handled rake, urn, certainly
3 par t i ally burned. Um, the handle is partially -- o r
4 the, uh, rake, itself , is somewhat oxidized or
5 rusted, and it's got leaves , and, um, metal, uh,
6 perhaps steel belt , um , stuck in some of the, uh

7 the rake blades .
8 Q From your time in the, uh, Arson Bureau, you - -
9 are you familiar with the phrase , "alligatoring
10 effect " ?
11 A In terms of the burn?
12 Q Yes.
13 A Uh, to -- to a certain extent .
14 Q All right. Wel l, do you see any particular type
15 of -- What -- What ' s the degree of burning on
16 that, urn -- that rake?
17 A Well, the burning is -- is is at the bottom, and
18 working its way towards the top, meaning that more
19 heat was applied to the bottom of this than the top .
20 Therefore, you've got more charri ng and more burning
21 from the bottom up .
22 Q All right . What do you ca l l , in your experience ,
23 the that ridge-like effect on the wood that
24 you're holding?
25 A The , um -- t he specific name, um, escapes me but --
191
1 Q Okay.
2 A -- um -- But, you know, the heat -- By looking at
3 this, you can tell that it burned more from the
4 bottom t han from the top , and it was used -- or
5 that -- in the fire at the bottom.
6 Q All right.
7 A So - -
8 Q And the handle of that ra ke is made out of what
9 substance , just --
10 A Wood.
11 Q -- so
12 A Wood.
13 Q Very good . All right . Wou ld you take it -- a
14 look at Exhibit 171 , please? Do you recognize
15 Exhibit 171?
16 A Yes, I do. Um, this is the spade that was at the
17 scene, um, as depicted in the photo as well, um, that
18 I observed, uh, near the burn pit, um, on November 8.
19 Q All right. And if you wou ld , what is the handle
20 of the spade made out of?
21 A This would be a, uh - - a wood as well.
22 Q All right. And describe t he condition of, first
23 of all, the spade, itself? The shovel portion of
24 the
25 A The the -- the bottom of the shovel , the metal
192
1 part is what I would refer to as a spade, and it does
2 show some signs of , a l so, being exposed to fire, um,
3 with some of the charring, um, a t the bottom of the
4 blade , towards the blade, itself .
5 Q All right. Does the blade appear to be somewhat
6 oxidized?
7 A Yes, it does.
8 Q Is that an unusual occurrence for metal being
9 exposed to fire?
10 A No.
11 Q All right. Very good . I'll have Investigator
12 Wiegert take that from you . Now, after you made
13 the discovery of the bone fr agment, which was
14 about eight feet in front of the area that you've
15 described, and then you said -- you indicated you
16 used, perhaps, a twig or something to move some
17 leaves to get a closer look at some of the other
18 items directly in the -- the darkened area, which
19 is depicted in , uh , Exhibit 168 , um , which is
20 portrayed on the screen , I believe?
21 A Yes.
22 Q All right. After you made these discoveries,
23 what did you do?
24 A After -- after the bones, or bone matter, or charred
25 matter, was discovered, at that point we made several
193
1 phone calls. We attempted to, urn, contact some of
2 the arson folks and have them come over . They were
3 busy with other issues . We also contacted the Crime
4 Lab folks, and because they were busy processing
5 other, uh, scenes , it was probably, uh, an
6 hour-and-a-half or so before the Crime Lab actually
7 arrived at the burn pit.
8 Q All right. And who, i n fact, arrived at the burn
9 pit to assist you?
10 A The , uh -- The Crime Lab personnel were , um, John
11 Ertl, uh, Chuck Cates , and Guang Zhang . Um
12 Q All right. Prior to their arrival, did you
13 attempt any process ing of the pit yourself?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q All right. Um, when they arrived, tell us how
16 the pit was processed?
17 A When the Crime Lab arrived at the scene, um, John
18 Ertl and others , as -- as well as myself and Deputy
19 Jost, assisted with erecting a sifting apparatus .
20 And this is just not something one person can erect .
21 It's a large, um, tripod-type to -- um, piece of
22 equipment, and so it took a -- a couple of us, uh, to
23 erect this thing. It 's, again, a large tr ipod. It
24 probably stands eight feet off the ground.
25 And from that , um, after -- after
194
1 putting up the tripod , we then attached sifting
2 devices, which were probably two feet in wi dth
3 and ma ybe fou r feet in length, and , uh , b e gun to
4 sift through that debris pile.
5 Q All right . And, um, how did this sifting
6 actually mechanically occur?
7 A John Ertl, and some of the other Crime Lab folks,
8 actu ally scooped up t h at debris material with a -- I
9 believe a flat shovel , if I'm -- if my memory serves
10 me correctly , placed that onto those sifting screens,
11 which were , again , I think, two feet wide by four
12 feet in length . There may have been more than one
13 s i fter . And as the debri s is placed on top of what
14 we sorted, and we picked out things that we felt were
15 either bone fragme nts , teeth , um , meta l grommets,
16 zipper, uh, a, uh , piece of a metal belt buckle , and,
17 um, so as we sifted through that , we took those
18 things out that we thought might be bone matter and
19 other things that might be of importance, and then
20 placed those items into a box, urn , that, uh, was
21 turned -- or -- or -- that the Crime Lab took with
22 them after we completed sifting that pile of de bris,
23 which is right there .
24 Q All right . I ' m s howing -- I ' m having
25 Mr. Fassbender , urn, show you Exhibit 172. If you
195
1 would take a moment to examine that exhibit? Do
2 you recognize Exhibit 172?
3 A Yes . This is -- Th i s is the, uh , zipper that we
4 picked out of the -- the debris that we were sifting
5 through --
6 Q All right.
7 A -- from t his pile .
8 Q All right. Are there any particular markings or
9 anything on that zipper?
10 A Yes, there are.
11 Q And would you tel l us what they are, please?
12 A They are in capital Y-K-K.
13 Q All right. Very good . Thank you . Approximately
14 how long did, um, the sifting process take that
15 you engaged in?
16 A I think -- I would -- I would just have to guess, was
17 roughly two hours, and that included the time t hat we
18 actually set up the apparatus , the sifting, and we
19 sifted rapidly due to -- due to, uh, darkness .
20 Q All right. And you indicated the presence of
21 other, uh, implements or items , uh, in the
22 general area of the pit?
23 A Yes .
24 Q I'd like you to, first of all , if you can recall,
25 what was - - what implements , if any, were
196
1 actually found i n the darkened area , which looks
2 like the burn part? If you could recall what --
3 what was fou nd in that part?
4 A I believe there was a screwdriver , hammer, urn, of
5 course, this , um, steel-belt wiring , a hacksaw blade ,
6 and I believe that was it to the best of my
7 recollection .
8 Q I'm having Investigator Fas sbender show you
9 Exhibit 173. Uh, is there , uh, an item depicted
10 in there?
11 A Yes. It's
12 Q Is tha t --
13 A It's a screwdriver.
14 Q We'll have that projected in just a moment . That
15 is the screwdriver that you were, um , just
16 speaking of?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Uh, the photograph also appears to depict some
19 circular wire material?
20 A Yes . In -- in -- in my opinion , t his was more steel
21 belt -- steel- belt wiring .
22 Q All right . Very good .
23 A And that was Exhibit 173.
24 Q As, um , five o'clock drew near, what did you do?
25 A As -- As darkness was nearing , um, we sifted what we
197
1 could, urn, and I felt it was important to pick
2 this -- these items up and get them to the Crime Lab,
3 because at this point i n time we don't know if Teresa
4 Halbach is alive or dead. So it was important, with
5 the impending darkness , to sift t hrough this stuff,
6 do it fairly quickly, be thorough, pick out what we

7 could, and then get that to the Crime Lab so the
8 Crime Lab could analyze that and make some sort of
9 determination.
10 So after -- after we sifted through the
11 remain ing debris -- And we sifted this on top of
12 a tarp that I think was six feet by e ight feet .
13 So the stuff that we sifted through we collected,
14 we double- and triple-bagged that debris that was
15 depicted in the picture, and placed that into the
16 Calumet County, uh, evidence van, if you will .

17 So - -
18 Q All right. And how was the pit preserved, if at
19 all, when you were done?
20 A The pit -- Uh, we placed a tarp over t he pit so that

21 if this, in fact, turned out to be Teresa, that we
22 would then go back and more closely examine that pit
23 and, urn -- a little closer .

24 Q We're going to have you identify one more
25 exhibit. Uh, Investigator Wiegert , um, prepared
198
1 the exhibit for your examination. This may
2 r equire you to s t ep off of the stand . I 'm not
3 sure how - - what your view wi l l be . Just bear
4 with us one moment . Um, Mr . Sturdivant , would
5 you step forward? Um, I' ll share my microphone
6 with you so everyone can hear.
7 A Um-hmm.
8 Q Uh , we've had now produced, um, an exhibit marked
9 174 . And do you recognize it?
10 A I -- I don't know that I need it . I do. And then
11 maybe we put up p hoto 169 or --
12 Q Sure .
13 A -- and I can just point that out to you .
14 Q Yep .
15 A This is a i n my opinion , just a -- a burned out ,
16 um, bench seat frame from a motor vehicle that is
17 clearly completely consumed . That was to the - - i f
18 you -- as you're facing this pit, if it's directly in
19 front of us, this -- this seat, or bench seat , was
20 immed iate to the right , or the edge of it , toward s

21 the -- the burn pit .
22 Q All right . And j ust so it 's clear , Exhibit 174 ,
23 is this the seat which you observed at t he scene

24 and which is depicted in Exhibit 169?
25 A Yes , it is .
199
1 Q All right. You may have your seat . Thank you.
2 Does it appear to be in substantially the same
3 condition as it was when, urn , you first observed
4 it?
5 A It does .
6 ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, at' this
7 time I would, um, move into evidence Exhibits 168
8 through 174 . Upon their receipt, uh, would
9 tender the witness for cross-examination.
10 THE COURT : Any objection, Counsel?
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No objection.
12 THE COURT : Uh, items 168 through 174 are
13 received . And you may cross.
17 Q If I could just use those photographs? Thank
18 you .
19 A You're welcome.
20 Q While I'm doing this , if I could ask you a couple
21 of questions . Maybe a silly question, but I
22 don't un - - I don't know the answer to t his. As
23 you looked at each item, you put on a pair of
24 gloves; correct?
25 A Yes, I did.
200
1 Q Why do you do that?
2 A Well, because there ' s For one, there's, um, soot
3 on the items. And, two, to keep my hands clean .
4 And, secondly , just because it's something you
5 typically do when you're processing evidence .
6 Q So you -- It ' s just a normal occurrence for you
7 in your -- probably from being a -- a crime scene
8 t ech for so long that you just, second nature ,
9 grabbed some gloves?
10 A Yes .
11 Q I'm not a crime scene tech so that's why I --
12 (inaudible . )
13 A I'm not a crime crime scene technician, either.
14 Q Okay . This is, uh, Exhibit 169? The picture?
15 A Yes, sir .
16 Q And this, I believe you testified to, was
17 essentially the van seat with some steel-belted
18 tire wiring wadded up; correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And just behind that is a tire ; correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Obviously, that tire doesn't look burned --
23 A No .
24 Q -- correct? Is this the way the scene looked
25 when you got to this fire pit area?
201
1 A I do not recall some of these red flags being in
2 the -- in the crime scene .
3 Q The van seat, itself , though, was not on the
4 actual ashened area of the pit? It was off to
5 the side like this ?
6 A The van -- The van seat was close to t he edge of the
7 burn p it , and this -- there we don't have -- this
8 i sn't a complete ph oto , so I 'm not certain how close
9 that is to the pit .
10 Q So did someone move the van seat to where it's at
11 now?
12 A It's hard to depict from this photo exactly where the
13 burn p it is , b ut the sea t was located -- that 's
14 your -- that's a -- that 's that ' s a fairly
15 accurate representation of where that seat was.
16 Q Okay. I -- I guess I was under the impression
17 from your previous answer that that -- you said
18 tha t the van seat , itself, was somewhere in t h is
19 area when you first arrived?
20 A Maybe we can get a better photo, but the van seat was
21 to the immediate right of the burn pit .
22 Q Okay . I'l l show you Ex -- Exhibit 168 again.
23 The large -- larger picture of the burn pit?
24 A Yes . The seat would have been right here, right
25 beside the pile of steel-belted wire.
202
1 Q Do you know who moved it?
2 A I do not .
3 Q Was it , uh, some other -- some other officer or
4 someone else tha t was at the scene before you?
5 A I assume that was moved after the scene. Probably
6 taken into evidence .
7 Q Agent, I'm going to show you what's been marked
8 Exhibit 175. Can you describe what that picture
9 or photograph shows? And then I'll put i t on
10 the --
11 ATTORNEY KRATZ : If you just hit o ne,
12 it 's all cued up .
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Great.
14 Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Now, us i ng this
15 photograph , can you better --
16 A Yes .
17 Q -- describe
18 A Um- hmm .
19 Q Okay .
20 A All right . This -- This is the burn pit, and this is
21 a seat to the right of the burn pit.
22 Q Okay. But as far as you kn ow , the seat, itself,
23 had not been on the -- the burn pit area where --
24 the sunken area when you arri -- rived . It was
25 where it is --
203
1 A It was
2 Q now i n the picture?
3 A Right . I t was not -- The burn -- The -- The sea t was
4 not on top of the debris pile . It was to the right.
5 Q Okay . Now, you indicated you found some
6 smallen (phonet ic ) -- what you believed to be
7 smallen pieces of bone in t he -- that large wad
8 of steel bel ts ?
9 A Yes .
10 Q Did you find any in the van seat?
11 A No. The, uh -- The bone material was intertwined in
12 all this steel belt .
13 Q You -- you ment ioned t hat what drew your
14 attention to this area in part i cular was having
15 seen a small bone fragment a b out eight feet from
16 the front end of the bone -- of t h e burn pit?
17 A Yes , sir .
18 Q And about how big a bone fragment was it?
19 A As I estimated , it was about one inch by one inch.
20 Just a small bone fragme nt .
21 Q Could you tell by loo king at that bone fragme nt
22 whether it was h uman or animal?
23 A I cou ld not.
24 Q Do you have expertise in bone fragments? Being
25 able to distinguish between human and the -- and
204
1 the animal?
2 A I do not, sir.
3 Q When you refer to a skull bone fragment in the
4 burn pit, you don't have an expertise that it's
5 distinguished between skull fragments and other
6 fragments?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q You were just assuming?
9 A Wasn't assumption . I think what -- what I -- I
10 testified to is I thought that it was important that
11 we pick these bones up and have them analyzed to
12 determine whether or not they were human bones and
13 Teresa Halbach's .
14 Q Okay . But, I mean, at the time you arro --
15 arrived at the scene , you didn't know what they
16 were?
17 A I did not, sir . No .
18 Q But they at least provided you with some sort of
19 ev -- potential evidential value that you wanted
20 to protect it or preserve it?
22 Q In Exhibit 173 -- I ' ll put that back up on the
23 ELMO - - you were describing the screwdriver in
24 the middle of this pit area ; correct?
25 A Yes, sir .
205
1 Q And, actually , I -- I think I might have
2 misspoke . It ' s actually on the outer edge of the
3 pi t a r e a ?
4 A Well , I believe the screwdriv er was -- I consider the
5 pit the concave area , or that area that had that
6 six-foot rectangular area that was scooped out .
7 Q The screwdriver , did it - - was it burned?
8 A I believ e i t j u st had -- you can see soot on the
9 handle . Did not see any indication where it ' s burned
10 here .
11 Q Nothing on the, uh -- the metal portion?
12 A No .
13 Q Didn ' t hav e t hat same look , for i n stance , as the
14 spade of -- of -- of the shovel?
15 A No. This is , uh, the way it appears .
16 Q Okay .
17 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Than k you, Your
18 Honor . I have not hing else .
19 THE COURT : Any redirect?
20 ATTORNEY FALLON : None .
21 THE COURT : You may step down .
22 THE WITNESS : Thank you .
23 THE COURT : You're welcome.
24 ATTORNEY FALLON : We have one last
25 witness .
20 6
1 THE COURT : All right.
2 ATTORNEY FALLON: State would call, um,
3 Don Simley to the stand.
4 THE COURT : Why don't you just remain
5 standing there and take the oath , please .
6 DONALD SIMLEY,
11 THE WITNES S : My name is a Donald 0 .
12 Simley, S-i-m-1-e-y . It ' s the 2nd .
15 Q What do you do for a living?
16 A I'm a general dentist in Madison, Wisconsin.
17 Q And how long have you been employed in that
18 capacity?
19 A I graduated from Marquette University in 1976 , and
20 have been there ever since.

21 Q Uh, what type of dentistry, um , do you practice?
22 A Uh, general denti stry is a family den tistry where I
23 take care of patients and their general oral health.

24 I also am a consultant in forensic dentistry.
25 Q All right . And, um , what is forensic dentistry?
207
1 A Forensic dentistry can , basically, be defined as the
2 application of the science of dentistry to the field
3 of law. I'm sorry. Slow down? The application of

4 science of dentistry to the field of law .
5 Uh , there are a number of different
6 areas that can be involved in forensic dentistry .
7 Uh, routine dental identifications are the most
8 corrunonly involved where individuals that are --
9 are not viewable or visually identifiable need to
10 be identified . Om , mass disaster involvement,
11 uh, just dental identifications taken to a -- a
12 higher number . Uh , child abuse cases . Uh, bite
13 mark evidence, uh , dental malpractice and
14 negligence in trauma of injury that are involved
15 in litigation.
16 Q All right . And how is it that you are involved
17 in this case , Doctor?
18 A Uh, received a phone ca ll from, uh, Special Agent
19 Duranda Freymi ller , on November 9 of 2005 .
20 Q What were you asked to do?
21 A She asked me to assis in the identification of -- of
22 an individual that was recovered in Manitowoc County .
23 Q All right. And, um -- And why are you here
24 today?
25 A Uh, to render my opinion after analysis of the
208
1 remains and to gi ve my opinion.
2 Q All right. Wel l , befo re we get to the opinion,
3 uh, and your findings in this case, um, if you
4 would tell us a l ittle bit about yoursel f . First
5 of all, tell u s , uh, where you received your
6 undergraduate d egree ?
7 A I graduated, uh, from Elmhurst College in 1960 --
8 ' 72, I'm sorry . Uh , received a B. S. Degree there.
9 And then in 1976 I graduated from Marquette
10 University, School of Dentistry .
11 Q And if you would te ll us a little bit about, um,
12 your forensic dental e xperience? What are some
13 of the types of t hings that you did?
14 A Um, wel l , I've been in -- involved in forensic
15 dentistry since 198 1. Um, most of the cases I -- I
16 do are -- are dental i dentificat i on cases. Again,
17 bite mark evidence , um, child abuse cases. Uh, been
18 involved in 435 cases , approximately . Uh, that does
19 not include work where I was involved in the World
20 Trade Center and down in Katrina. Um
21 Q We'll touch -- touch base with them in just a
22 moment.
23 A Okay .
24 Q Um, just so tha t we're clear, tell the jury what
25 a dental identificati o n is? What does it mean?
209
1 A Dental identifi ca tion is -- it's a means of positive
2 identification . If -- if an individual is , uh ,
3 decomposed, or skeletonized, or burned beyond
4 recognition, uh, if there ' s been dis figurement to the
5 face , uh, where a visual identification is not
6 applicable , or f i nge rp r int , uh , identification is not
7 available, uh, s ometime s you resort to dental
8 identifications, which is usually easier, quicker,
9 cheaper than - - t han DNA .
10 Q All right . And , um, ha ve you been cal l ed upon,
11 um, to, uh , r ender e xpe rt opi nion on dental
12 identification in t he pa st?
13 A Yes , sir, I have.
14 Q Uh , any estimate as t o approximately how many
15 times you've b een aske d to expre ss an opini on?
16 A Meaning in-cou rt te s timony?
17 Q Regarding an -- a den t al identificat i on, yes .
18 A I 've testifie d, I beli e ve, 32 times . Most of those
19 were involved wi t h dental identifications . Um ,
20 probably three- qua rte rs o f them. The other ones were
21 i n bite mark cases , and I think there's on l y one that
22 was involved in a n i n jury case . Personal inj ury
23 case .
24 Q All right. Tel l -- You ment i one d something
25 a bout , uh , di saster respons e experience . You
21 0
1 mentioned something about the World Trade Center
2 and Katrina. How were you involved in those
3 types of responses?
4 A I'm a member of a a national disaster team. It's
5 part of what they call NDMS , or the National Disaster
6 Medical System, which currently operates underneath
7 the Health and Human Services . And it was under
8 Health and Human Services at September 11 . And then
9 they restructured things. And then Ka tr ina, they
10 were actually underneath, uh, Department of Homeland
11 Security a nd FEMA. And now we're back with Health
12 and Human Service s .
13 And I've been involved with this NDMS,
14 and they have a DMORT team , and DMORT stands for
15 Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team. And
16 I've been involve d with the DMORT team for a
17 number of years, but I 've onl y actually been
18 deployed or activated twice . And once was for
19 the World Trade Center and then once was for
20 Katrina .
21 Q And your role in thos e responses was what?
22 A Two assist and help in the identification of the
23 individuals .
24 Q All right . Are you familiar with, uh, a -- a
25 standing or a ti t le called board certification?
211
1 A Yes , sir .
2 Q Tell us what that is?
3 A Um , to be board certified, uh , would indicate t ha t
4 you have a -- I ' d say a higher degree of experience,
5 or expertise, um, or training in the area of , in this
6 particular case , forensic dentistry .
7 Uh , it means taki ng a -- a -- an
8 examination . In my p art icular case , to be
9 qualified , you have to submit an application . I
10 believe the appl ication that I submitted, uh , and
11 I was board cert i fied in 1993 , was -- consisted
12 of two , three-ring binders t hat were full of
13 documentation of , u h, c ases that I've been
14 involved with, uh , court testimony, uh,
15 documentation of affiliations with certain
16 agencies, continuing education .
17 And the n if you ' re deemed to be board
18 eligible to take t he e xamination, the examination
19 is a -- it's a two-day written/oral examination
20 that you have to take to pass.
21 Q All right . And so I ta ke it , then, from your
22 comments , you are a board certified forensic
23 de n tist?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q All right . Uh, how ma ny board certified forensic
212
1 dentists are there in Wisconsin, for instance?
2 A There are only two of us in Wisconsin.
3 Q All right. And in terms of, urn, generally, in
4 North America, Un ited States, and Canada, in
5 particular, do you have any idea approximately
6 how many board certified dentists there are?
7 A There are approximately a hundred board certified
8 forensic dentists in in North America.
9 Q Do you belong to any professional organizations?
10 Uh, you mentioned the National Disaster Medical
11 System . Are there any other organizations that
12 you, um, you are a member of that assist you in
13 your forensic work?
14 A Oh, there are a number of different organizations
15 that I I belong to. I'm not so sure that they
16 assist me , although you -- I shouldn't say that
17 either, because they -- they do assist me in the fact
18 that you gain , uh, continuing education and
19 additional learning experiences from these
20 organizations .
21 Uh, the American Society of Forensic
22 Odontology is kind of an entry level
23 organization , but it 's one of the biggest

24 forensic organizations in the country and the
25 world .
213
1 The , um, Amer ican Academy of Forensic
2 Sciences, uh , is probably one of the premier
3 organizations in the United States.
4 Urn, I'm also a membe r o f t he Wi scon si n
5 Association for I dent ification . Uh, the
6 Wisconsin Coroners and Medical Examiners
7 Association.
8 Um, and then the board affiliation with
9 the American Board of Forensic Odontology. And
10 odontology is just a fancy name for denti stry .
11 Q All right . And, um, drawing your attention just
12 ver -- very briefly to Exhibit 182, urn, do you
13 recog nize Exhibit 182 ?
14 A Yes, sir, I do .
15 Q What is Exhibit 182?
16 A Uh, this is a copy of my CV, or curriculum vitae.
17 Q All right . And is that an accurate summary of
18 your educational and professional experience as
19 it relates to the field of forensic dentistry?
20 A Yes, sir , it is.
21 Q All right . Now , to this case . When was it that
22 you first became invo lved in the case, Doctor?
23 A That would have been on November 9 of 2005 .
24 Q All right. And what wer~ you aske d to do?
25 A Well , Special Agent Fre ymiller had asked me to assist
21 4
1 in the identification, and then Assistant , uh ,
2 District Attorney Jeff Froehlich, uh, had called and ,
3 urn, wanted to know , n umber one , I -- that I ' d alread y
4 looked at some of the remains on that date , and
5 wanted to know if they were human or nonhuman , and
6 then he also wanted to know a little bit about my --
7 my background and -- and my qualifications .
8 Q All right . Uh, did it come to pass that you were
9 asked to examine, um , items to determine whether
10 or not they involved , uh , your field of forensic
11 dentistry?
12 A Yes , sir .
13 Q And a pproximately how man y items wer e you asked
14 to examine and and attempt identification of?
15 A There were six limes that I received evidence. A
16 total number of pieces of of potential evidence
17 were 52 , uh, potential items of evidence.
18 Q All right . And tel l u s about those items? What
19 did they consist of?
20 A When I say po ential , because , initially, it's --
21 it's -- it ' s difficult to identify, uh, some burned
22 and fragmented dental structures . Um, so potential,
23 meaning that some of the items that were recovered
24 were not dental structures , but it wasn't initially
25 known then , or they wanted to be verified .
215
1 Urn, there were, I believe, 24, uh,
2 dental structures , root fragments, um , crown
3 fragments . There was not one whole tooth that I
4 was able to examine . There were three bone
5 fragments. There were 24 pieces of wood that ,
6 again, looked like dental structures. And one
7 piece of plastic.
8 Q Is it at all unusual to have, for ins tance , a --
9 a piece of wood , um, mistaken for a tooth?
10 A No, sir . It ' s, uh , quite common. It's -- it's easy
11 for anybody else to misidentify them, or to exclude
12 them, or or not identify them as tooth structures.
13 In -- in fact, sometime s I can't even identify them
14 without taking x-rays of -- because they look totally
15 different radiographica lly or on the x-rays .
16 Q And is that , urn, particularly more problematic
17 when they've been consumed in a fire?
18 A Yes, sir .
19 Q All right. Orn, havi ng said that, would you tell
20 us or describe for us the condition of -- of, uh,
21 these -- the 24 tooth fragments and the three
22 bone fragments that you examined?
23 A They were all burned . They were all charred. Uh,
24 they were very, very brittle. Um, again , they didn't

25 look like normal tooth like we would normally see ,
216
1 and, essentially, the crowns were all gone . What we
2 were looking at was just the root structure, which
3 was, um, part of the tooth that's buried in the bone .
4 There was one portion of a crown , um,
5 but that portion of the crown was from a -- a
6 cuspid or an ey tooth a nd was not able to be
7 identified.
8 Q All right . In te rms of the condition of these
9 fra gments, how did they compare to other
10 fragments that you 've been asked to examine in
11 attempt at identification of in the past?
12 A Since 1981, I ' ve examined a number of -- of
13 individuals who've be en burned, and, uh, these were
14 probably among he worst that I 've examined .
15 Q Are you familia r with a phrase that some dentists
16 use called f rac ure ma ching?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Om , what is fracture matching?
19 A When you fracture matc h something, you can put two
20 pieces back togethe r. And if I can say that they
21 came from a common source , that they were at one time
22 one piece, you can fra ct ure match them back together.
23 Q Did you attempt any fracture matching in this
24 case?
25 A Yes, sir, I did.
21 7
1 Q All right. Tel l us about that?
2 A There were two root fragments that I was able to
3 fracture match back toge ther. Actually, I should say
4 four . There we re two that were very critical , but
5 there were two other ones that ended up being
6 academic .
7 Um, the two crit ical ones were -- were
8 root fragme nts from , uh , the lower right second
9 molar, which would be Tooth No. 31, which we call
10 it , and that par ticula r tooth , the crown, again ,
11 was -- was dest royed, but there were two roots
12 associated with t hat t oo th , and they were
13 separate, but I could put those back togethe r ,
14 and I could see that they had initially come --
15 at one time been together . And then to fracture
16 match them, I put them back together and then I
17 applied a lit tle cyanoacrylate , or Super Glue so
18 that they stick toget h e r .
19 Q All right. And is that a common approach?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And what is the benef i of fracture matching?
22 A Well, there's a couple benefits, really . Number one,
23 if you've got 5 2 piece s of potential evidence , if you
24 can combine that down so that there's a little bit
25 less , that's a -- a small advantage , not a big one .
218
1 The big one is is that these pieces
2 of -- of dental rema ins are extremely brittle
3 when they're burned and they're charred. And
4 the se p i eces of -- of -- of dent al structur e s
5 could be very easily crushed with finger
6 pressure. If they ' re dropped , t h ey could be
7 broken . And if that happens , that pot --
8 poten ti a l p iece of evidence is -- is lost . It 's
9 gon e forever .
10 So by Supe r Gluing them, and -- a nd
11 fracture matching, and putti ng them back
12 together , and reinforcing them wi th t h e
13 cyanoacrylate , you can prese r ve, you can protect ,
14 and -- and maintain th at evidence better.
15 Q All right . And , um , in this particular case , uh ,
16 were you -- uh, did you attempt to make a
17 comparison?
18 A Yes, sir , I di d .
19 Q All right . An d that would assume , then, that you
20 had something to compare or stan dards to compare
21 the fracture matched tooth with something else?
23 Q Um , and tell us, what did you have at your
24 disposal to assist in this comparison?
25 A Wel l, there we re a number of different x-rays that I
219
1 had of -- of Teresa Halbach , and all the x-rays were
2 labeled with -- with Teresa ' s name . On Novembe r 10 ,
3 uh , Special Ag ent Jim Holmes brought to my o ffi c e
4 den tal records for Tere sa.
5 And tho se re cords consisted of a panorex
6 x-ray from August 30 o f 2001 . Um , a panorex
7 x-ray i s a n x-ray that goes around the outside of
8 the mo u th and picks up everythin g from ear to
9 ear . Uh , oral surgeons love them . A lot of
10 general dentists love lhem . Pediatric dentists
11 love them . Because it -- it picks up everything .
12 He also brough t over 16 bitewing x-rays .
13 And a bi t ewing x-ray , as I ' m sure you're familiar
14 with, is you go in to see your family dentist ,
15 and they have y o u bite d own on the film, and
16 shoot the x-ray in fro m the side , and it picks up
17 the most amount of too -h structure with the least
18 amount of x-rays. And , usually , you're looking
19 for decay . You can loo k at the bo n e support
20 there, too.
21 There were 16 bitewing x-rays varying in
22 ages from 1998 to 2004 . At that particular t ime ,
23 though, I knew t hat we needed -- additional
24 x-rays would be more b e ne f icial. And what I was
25 looking for, spe cifica lly, is what they call a
22 0
1 periapical x-ra y .
2 Q Uh, what was that agai n ?
3 A A periapical x - ray .
4 Q Could you, uh, spell that for us? Um --
5 A P-e-r-i-a - p -i -c-a-1 .
6 Q What -- wha t is t ha t?
7 A A periapica l x- ray , it -- it 's j ust - - it 's just like
8 the bitewing x -ra y . Th e same size . But it's
9 positioned d own lower o n the tooth so it will p ic k up
10 one or t wo teeth in its entiret y, and it will pick up
11 the whol e root st ructu re . Whereas, on a bitewi ng
12 x-ray, you're picki n g up top and bottom teeth , and
13 you kind o f cut off th e ends of the roots, uh ,
14 because they ' re not d esign ed to pick up the whole
15 root structure .
16 And I was looki ng -- Since we had the
17 entire root from this Tooth No . 31 that we we re
18 loo king at, um, I was looking for periapical
19 x-rays, of wh ich Teres ' s dentist did not have
20 any of these x- ra ys , ul he said he did have some
21 additional x-r ays from 1997 . Um, it was
22 August 25 of 1997 . And he said those x-rays were
23 positioned just a litt le bit lower and the y
24 showed a littl e bit more root stru cture . So h e
25 for ward ed thos e to me so I had those to look at
22 1
1 also .
2 Q With the assistance of the 1997, um , x-ray, were
3 you able to make a comparison?
4 A Yes , sir , I was.
5 Q All right. And before we do that , um, just so
6 that we know , um , in dental circles , you number
7 your teeth, so --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- tell -- tell us what Tooth No. 31 is?
10 A All the teeth have specific numbers. They have what
11 they call a universal numbering system . So if I talk
12 about Tooth No . 1, uh, any dentist in the coun try
13 will know that I'm talking about the upper right
14 third molar . The wisdom tooth.
15 If I'm talking about Teeth No . 8 and 9 ,
16 they 'l l know I ' m talking about the two cen tral
17 inci sors right underneath the nose. The big
18 front teet h .
19 Uh , No. 19 is a lower left first molar,
20 and Tooth No. 31 is a lower right second
21 permanent molar.
22 Q All right.
23 A So just a -- a way of -- for us to more easily, um,
24 identify a particular tooth by number.
25 Q All right. I 'm going to have, urn , an exhibit
222
1 marked and shown to you . I 'm having Agent, uh,
2 Fassbender show you Exhibit 162 . If you'd take a

3 moment to examine it? Do you recognize Exhibit
4 162?
5 A Yes, sir, I do .
6 Q And wha t is Exh j bit 162 ?

7 A These are the r e mains t ha t I received on, uh,
8 November 11, 2005 from Special Agent Jim Holmes.
9 Q All right. And, um, what rema ins are depicted in
10 Exhibit 162?
11 A There were two bone fr ngments . Um, one of what they

12 call the corono i d proc ss , which is just an upper
13 part of the lowe r jaw, which was academic in
14 recovery . There was another , uh, bone fragment,

15 which was from t he lowe r right mandible , or lower
16 jaw . And then t here we re three root fragments .
17 Q All right . Now, is e xhibit -- Excuse me. Does
18 Exhibit, um , 162 , uh, c ont ain these -- this Tooth
19 No. 31 that you used in your comparison?
20 A Yes, sir, it doe s .

21 Q All right . All right. Um, I believe that, urn,
22 we have prepared a , urn, PowerPoint presentation
23 to assist in, um , your expl a na tion of your
24 findings ; is tha t correct?
223
1 Q All right. And would the use of the PowerPoint
2 assist you in further , um , demonstrating what
3 your findings were?
4 A I think it would be beneficial for the jurors,
5 please .
6 Q All right . While we're working on, um, getting
7 that up and running, um, explain why you were
8 able to do a comparison involving Tooth No. 31?
9 A Well , Tooth No . 31 was really the one that was best
10 preserved . It had the most physical evidence that
11 was there with the two root structures . Uh, again,
12 there were no crowns that were remaining. Uh,
13 fillings that Teresa had in her tee th were gone. Uh,
14 they were destroyed in the fire . Uh, all the crown
15 structure that was easily identifiable was gone .
16 Uh, some of the root fragments that were
17 recovered, uh, of t hose 24 initial root
18 fragments - - I mean, t here were some that I
19 couldn 't identify . I mean , they were burned
20 badly enough, and they had just por -- portions
21 of roots that, um -- I mean, I tried to identify
22 each tooth as to, you know, if it was a molar, or
23 bicuspid, a cuspid, an in cisor, or what type of
24 tooth it was, and there were some that I couldn't
25 identify. Uh, so that was the best physical
224
1 piece of evidence that we had for examination.
2 And, also , hen , you have an , uh -- a
3 denta l record from Ter e sa , um , t hat you can
4 compare . So you need decent postmortem evidence
5 and you need dec e n t , uh, a n temortem evidence,
6 also .
7 Q All right . I'm going t o have some photographs
8 pre sented to you in -- i n conjunction with, um,
9 PowerPoint. What is , um -- First of all, um, you
10 have a photograph the r e , which was , uh, depicted
11 in the photograph? Th e top one?
12 A This top one is, um , what ' s on the screen . You want
13 the number you mean?
14 Q Yes , please . The ex h ibit number?
15 A Exhibit No. 176 .
16 Q Very good . And that is what is depicted on the
17 screen?
18 A Yes, sir .
19 Q All right . Wha t does , uh , Tooth No. 31, buccal,
20 b-u-c-c-a-1 , what -- what does that signify?
21 A Buccal means chee k side . So , uh, there are actually
22 five aspects to a tooth that we can examine . And the
23 buccal aspect i s the cheek side . The lingua l , which
24 we'll see in a second , is the tongue side . The
25 occlusal portion is h e top of the tooth. And then
2 25
1 two additional sides would be the mesial, towards the
2 fro n t of the mouth, and distal, towards the back of
3 the mouth .
4 So this just happens to depict the --
5 the buccal aspect. And what we're looking at
6 is -- If you compare this grainy aspect here,
7 that surface is very rough , um, and usually the
8 cheek side aspect of a dental fragment is usually
9 going to be burned more than the tongue side
10 aspect, because on the tongue side aspect , the
11 tongue actually pushes up against the tooth and
12 the jaw fragment to -- to further preserve and
13 protect that particular fragme nt .
14 Whereas, once the cheek gets burned
15 through, uh, the outside or the cheek side aspect
16 of that tooth is going to take a bigger hit in
17 there. Um - -
18 Q How much of that is the actual tooth , itself ,
19 which is depicted, if you could help us out?
20 A Right This is the back root, and this is the front
21 root. This would have been the socket where the
22 first molar, Tooth No. 30, would have been, and this
23 is a socket where the second bicuspid would have
24 been .
25 So we're actually seeing a section from
226
1 the second bicuspid back to -- And this is
2 actually where a wisdom tooth might have been if
3 one had been present .
4 Q All right . And, um, what is the next , um, um,
5 photograph you have there?
6 A The next photograph is not here .
7 Q All right . All right . And, um, what is
8 depicted, then, on the
9 A This --
10 Q -- um, PowerPoint?
11 A This PowerPoint This shows the lingual aspect , or
12 the tongue side aspect . And, again, you can see
13 you compare that surface of the bone compared to the
14 cheek side aspect , it's very smooth. It was
15 protected . It was -- it was further insulated in
16 there . And this is just a portion of Tooth No . 31.
17 Uh, that's all that was left of the crown portion of
18 the tooth .
19 Q All right . Next one? And, uh, what are we
20 looking at here on the -- the photograph? This
21 should be Exhibit 177, I believe?
22 A That ' s correct , 177 . Uh, this is from the occlusal
23 or from the biting surface . And this just shows the
24 top of the tooth. And the way it was fractured
25 matched, that fracture was down -- looks like it
227
1 comes across here and comes up here. So th is root
2 and this root were two separate entities, uh, when I
3 received them, and then I fracture matched them back
4 together.
5 Q All right . So are you telling us that what we're
6 loo king at here is actually the root and not so
7 much -- the -- the top of t he root and not really
8 the crown or the top that -- the part where we
9 chew with?
10 A Correct . That part that you chew with, the part
11 that ' s normally above the gum, is -- is, for all
12 practical purposes, 99.9 percent gone.
13 Q All right. Al l right. And what i s, uh, depicted
14 here now?
15 A Uh, this is Exhibit 178 .
16 Q All right .
17 A Uh, this was the panorex x-ray from 2001, uh, that I
18 received from Special Agent Jim Holmes. Again, the
19 panorex x-ray goes around the outside of the mouth,
20 picks up everything from ear to ear . Um, so it shows
21 all of the teeth, and it shows the wisdom teeth that
22 Teresa had at this particular time. The t ooth that
23 we're looking at is on the lower right second molar,
24 and that's Tooth No. 31 .
25 Q What are we looking at here?
228
1 A Uh, this would be Exhibit 179 . And this is just a
2 cropped picture of that panorex . So it's just --
3 That area that we're looking at on Tooth No. 31 kind
4 of zoomed in on that particular tooth .
5 Q Okay.
6 A That is Tooth No. 31. I had other fragments in there
7 at one time, uh, trying to see if that particular
8 fragment was part of Tooth No. 30, and that it was
9 not . Um, so what we're looking at, again, this is
10 the postmort x-ray of the f ragment of Tooth No . 31 .
11 Q Al l right .
12 A And then this is just a cropped picture of Tooth No .
13 31, and that is -- looks like Exhibit 180 .
14 Q All right. And what does, um, postmortem x-ray
15 mean?
16 A Postmortem is just after death.
17 Q All right. And so is that the -- is that an
18 x-ray of what you previously showed?
19 A Correct . The initial photographs , uh, of -- of Tooth
20 No . 31 with the buccal , lingual and occlusal views .
21 Uh, that's an x-ray of that fragment, yes .
22 Q So that's that tooth there . Now, is that, um,
23 x-ray taken after it's fracture mat ched?
24 A Correct .
25 Q Okay. All right . And what are we looking at
229
1 here? We have a split screen; panorex and
2 postmortem?
3 A This is Exhibit 181 . And this is just a side- by-side
4 comparison of the panorex at the cropped Tooth No.
5 31 , and then the postmortem Tooth No. 31 . And just
6 some of the things I ' m looking at is the distance
7 between the roots . The whiter area up here that
8 we're looking at is the enamel . That ' s the crown of
9 the tooth . From here over is the crown of the tooth .
10 And that part has been de stroyed .
11 The little grayer shade on the inside is
12 the dentin . That 's the inside part of the tooth .
13 Um, enamel is the hardest structure in the body.
14 Dentin is the second hardest structure in the
15 body. Uh, they're both harder than bone.
16 The dark line in the middle of the tooth
17 is the pulp. That 's he blood vessel near the
18 middle of the tooth .
19 So what I'm looki ng at , I'm comparing
20 the pulp tissues in the middle of the tooth ,
21 antemortem and postmortem . There 's a little
22 curvature in the root o n the postmortem x-ray
23 that I can see on the a ntemortem x-ray .
24 So that's jus t a side-by-side
25 comparison .
230
1 Q All right. All right , Doctor, let me ask you,
2 then, for , um , your opinion . Um, based on your
3 a na lysis of Tooth No . 3 1, the one that you were
4 able to fracture ma tch back together , do you have
5 an opinion on whether the root and bone fragments
6 from Tooth 31 recovered , uh, from the burn pit,
7 are consistent with the dental x-rays of Teresa
8 Halbach that you obtained from Dr . Krupka?
9 A Yes, I do .
11 A In my opinion, they were very consistent. And that I
12 could place - - actually place the antemortern x-ray on
13 top of the postmortem x -ray on the panorex, and then ,
14 also, on the ' 97 bitewing x-rays, and they would
15 appear as one . I mean, I could superimpose one on
16 top of the other.
17 And the - - the pu lp tis sue, the root
18 structure, uh, would coincide perfectly in there .
19 So they were very consistent .
20 Q Now -- now, in your terms of forensic dentistry,
21 what does very consistent mean?
22 A To me, very consistent means that it's a probable
23 identification . Um , positive identification -- I
24 I was a little leary of -- of that term, because of
25 the fact that I only , ssentially, had one fragment
231
1 to really work with. Um , but I also am very
2 conservative in my opinion . Um, if I say positive
3 identifi cation , to me that means to the exclusion of
4 all others . And , um --
5 Q Does that mean a hund ed percent in your mind?
6 A A hundred percent in my mind . Yes . And
7 Q So
8 A thi s is - - looked like it was very, very close .
9 Q All right . That was my question . How close
10 are -- were you to making a positive
11 identification here?
12 A I was very close . I mea n , it was right there , and - -
13 and probably the only thing holding me back is that
14 I'm , again , ultra-conservative in my opinion .
15 Q All right .
16 ATTORNE Y FALLON : I have no further
17 que s tions for the witness and would move into
18 evidence the , uh , pho tographs which , uh ,
19 Dr. Simley has identi ied . Um , Exhibits, uh --
20 Plus Exhibit 16 2 , wh i c h was the tooth fragment
21 that he fractured mat ched . And that would be
22 Exhibit 162 , 176 , 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, a n d,
23 for completion o the record , Exh i bit 182, the
24 CV .
25 THE COURT : Any objection, Counsel?
232
1 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No , Judge.
2 THE COURT : They're received .
3 Cross-examin ation .
6 THE WITNESS : Thank you .
7 THE COURT : Any further wi tnesses?
8 ATTORNEY FALLON : I think that conclude s
9 our witnesses for this afte rnoon .
10 THE COURT : 1"or t hi s afternoon?
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge , for the for
12 the record , I would move i n Exhibit 175 . I
13 bel ieve that was the one I introduced with , uh ,
14 Agent Sturdivant . I believe i t was a picture of
15 a -- a larger , wider angle pie ure of the burn
16 THE COURT : Photo of t h e burn pit .
17 ATTORN EY FREMGEN : - - pit . Righ t.
18 ATTORNEY FALLON : We have no objection .
20 ATTORNEY FALLON: We would j oin in that
21 reques t.
22 THE COURT : All right . That ' s -- that' s
23 rece i ved as well . Al l right . We are t h en adjou r ned
24 unti l tomorrow at , uh, 8 : 30 .
25 ATTORNEY FALLON : Very we ll .
233
1 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, the usual
2 admonition. Don't talk about the case to anyone,
3 not even among yourselves. Okay.
4 (Wherein court stands adjourned at 4 : 07 p.m . )
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)SS .
4 I, Jennifer K . Hau , Official Court
15 Dated this ~ day of 1\(i't' mh'A- , 2007.
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19 Jeiinif K. Hau, RPR

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235
t 165-167 (1] 4/18 2:54 [1] 181/5
166 (3) 4/18 140/10 165/23 2nd 111 207/12
'05 {3) 174/13174/15176/10 166-170 (1] 3/20
'72 [1] 209/8 167 [4) 4/18 141/15 142/14 165/23
3
'97 (1] 231/14 168 [8) 186/9 186/10 186/15 189/7 3-D [1] 28/11
'99 111 125/5 193/19 200/7 200/12 202/22 30 (5) 185/12 185/12 220/6 226/22
168-174 [1] 4/19 229/8
- 169 (5) 188/5 188/6 199/11 199/24 30-foot (2) 185/18 185/18
--in 111 91/10 201/14 31 (25] 7/8 10/17 173/20 174/15 175/8
170 [3] 3/20 190/16 190/19 175/12 218/9 221/17 222/9 222/20
170-172 (1) 3/21 223/19 224/8 224/9 225/19 227 /16
.22 [2] 111/8 157/16 171 [3] 190/23192/14 192/15 228/24 229/3 229/6 229/10 229/13
.22 caliber [2] 111/8 157/16 172 [4] 3/21 3/22 195/25 196/2 229/20 230/5 230/5 231/3 231/6
.30 (1) 157/17 172-180 [1] 4/4 32[2] 27/1210/18
.30 caliber 111 157/17 173 [3] 197/9197/23 205/22 350 121 104/4 120/25
17 4 [5) 4/19 199/9 199/22 200/8 200/12
0 17 5 (3) 4/20 203/8 233/12
4
0-4-1-8-0-7 [1] 186/8 176 [2] 225/15 232/22 40-hour [1) 125/4
06 131 1/6 5/4 186/9 176-182 [1) 4/21 41 [1] 106/11
177 [3] 227/21 227/22 232/22 435 [1) 209/18
1 178 [2] 228/15 232/22 45 (2) 81/14 81/16
10 [4] 30/6 31/23 32/10 220/2 179 [2] 229/1 232/22 4:07 111 234/4
103 [1) 3/10 18 [6J 1/10 51/1 51/6 51/17 52/20 52/20
103-116 [1] 3/11 180 [8) 4/4 4/5 104/13 104/14 106/2
5
107 [1) 82/16 106/6 229/13 232/22 5'6 [2] 140/19 150/1
10:33 (1) 77/11 180-plus (1) 121 /3 5-16 (1) 3/4
11 [4) 51/13182/6 211/8 223/8 181 [2] 230/3 232/22 50 [2] 29/24 30/1
113 (1) 75/1 181-200 (1) 4/8 50 percent (1 I 29/25
116[1)3/11 182 [5) 4/21 214/12 214/13 214/15 52 (2) 215/17 218/23
117-123 (1) 3/12 232/23 54[1] 114/10
11 :01 (1] 77/12 19 [4] 125/14 125/17 126/5 222/19 5:30 f1 l 175/17
11 :54 [1] 123/9 1960 [11 209n
12 (3] 4/16 30/6 53/19
6
1976 (2] 207/19 209/9
123 (1] 3/12 1981 (2) 209/15 217/12 60 000 111 30/11
123-143 (1) 3/14 1988 [1] 12514
131 [2] 56/20 56125
7
1993 (1) 212/11
132 [2] 184125 185/6 1994 [1) 25/9 73 (3) 177/4 177/15 178/24
141 (3) 41/21 76/21 128/11 1996 [1] 25/1 75 [1) 179/22
141-161 (1] 4/14 1997 [3] 221121 221122 22212 76 (2) 4114 4117
142 [2] 44123 129/15 1998 (2) 181/24 220/22 77 (3) 319 4/14 4/17
143 [3] 3/14 47/1 131/9 1999 [1] 128113 77-103 r11 3/10
143-163 [1] 3/15 1:00(1] 123/4 8
144 [2] 48/8 130/15 1: 10 [1] 12316
145 (2] 48/23 132/12 1 :15 (1 J 12311 o 82 (3) 84/23 84/24 85/3
146 [3] 60/21 61/15 134/1 1:30 r21 183/22 184/8 88 [3] 1/6 5/4 186/9
147 [2] 60/22 62/2 89 (1) 131/23
148 (5) 60/22 62/23 64/10 64/17 136/10 2 8:30 [1] 233/24
149 (3] 60/22 63/22 138/2 20 [1] 170/1 8th r11 141/25
15 (21] 31/23 32/10 36/17 36/19 50/15 20's (1) 51/13 9
52/24 55/20 66/12 67 /14 7015 7017 200 (3] 4/8 4/19 4/19
77/10 89/12 124/18146/15 146/17 200-206 [1] 419 9.3 [2] 52122 52122
146/20 170/1 175/23 17611 181/1 2001 [2) 220/6 228/17 90-degree [1) 13911
15-minute [1] 77/9 2002 [2] 65/6 166/22 91 [1) 96/10
151 (1) 61/9 2003 [1] 182/18 92 (1) 95/9
152 [1) 62/17 2004 [1} 220/22 94 [1] 54/8
153 (2) 63/12 64/9 2005 [16] 7/8 8/12 42/10 128/18 142/17 99.9 percent [1) 228/12
154 (1) 64/12 173/10 173/11 173/20 174/4 175/8 9:02 (1) 5/1
155 [1] 44115 175/12 182/18 182/21208/19214/23 9:30 f11 175/18
156 (1] 45111 223/8 A
157 (3) 46/8 46/13 46/20 2006 [71 719 19/20 20/17 167/2 167/6
158 [1] 4 7/25 167/6 168/1 A-v-e-r-y [ 1J 6/2
159 [1] 48/14 2007 [2] 1110 235/15 a.m [4) 511 77/11 77/12 123/9
16 [10) 314 4/16 4/16 51/1 51/6 51/17 206 [1] 4/9 A1 [3] 61/14 61/19 66/23
52/19 52/20 220/12 220/21 207-232 (1) 4111 A 10 [5) 48/17 52/6 5216 52/9 53/19
16-22 111 3/5 211 [1] 93118 A 12 [3) 48/25 52/6 52/11
160 [1] 48/21 22 [2] 3/5 3/6 A14 (1] 60/7
161 [3J 4/14 60/2 76/22 22-77 [1] 3/9 A2 (3] 62/21 63/1 66/23
162 (8) 4/15 223/2 223/4 223/6 223/10 232 [3] 4/11 4/15 4/21 A23 (11 aan
223/18 232/20 232/22 233 [4] 4/15 4/20 4/20 4/21 A3 [2] 63117 66/23
163 [5] 3/15 4/16 12/15 12/20 16/14 24[4] 216/1216/5216/21224/17 A4 (2] 64/16 66/23
163-165 [1] 3/16 25 [1} 221/22 A6 [4} 44/20 45/3 45/4 53/16
164 [5) 4/17 27 /5 27 /7 76/24 76/25 27 (1) 4/17 A7 [6] 45/1 3 46/5 46/6 46/10 46/16
165 [5] 3/16 3/17 4/18 126/19 165/23 2:33 p.m (1) 181/4 53/16
amplify [2] 36/10 107/11 214/25 219/24 223/23 224/2
A amplifying [1] 50/23 assistance (1] 222/2
A8 [5] 46/14 46/17 46/2152/652/7 analysis [14) 24/22 40/2 40/14 43/23 Assistant [1] 215/1
A9 (3) 48/3 48/11 53/16 72/11 106/3 122/5 125/12 126/3 126/6 assisted [2] 194/19 235/10
above [1] 228/11 126/25 164/9 208/25 231 /3 associated (4) 138/11 139/10 167/8
absence [8] 87/1 105/6 115/25 116/3 analyst [4] 32/11 39/20 88/8 122/1 218/12
116/6 116/11 116/21116/23 analysts [6) 24/1 O 30/3 30/25 32/15 Association [2] 214/5 214/7
abuse [2] 208/12 209/17 41/10 105/17 assume [6] 148/4151/6 151n 152/6
abutted [1) 178/21 analyze [2] 32/11 198/8 203/5 219/19
academic [2] 218/6 223/13 analyzed (2] 30/9 205/11 assuming (7] 87/23 112/12 149/9 177/9
Academy [1] 214/1 angle [3] 139/1 139/3 233/15 179/14 179/16 205/8
access [1] 26116 animal [2) 204/22 205/1 assumption [2] 112/16 205/9
accreditation [2] 31/9 31/11 antemortem [4] 225/5 230/21 230/23 assumptions (1] 152/5
accredited (3] 31/10 31/19 31/22 231/12 attached (3] 68/12 69n 195/1
accurately [3] 41 /16 52/2 69/24 anybody [1] 216/11 attempt [8] 23/22 81 /24 83/8 194/13
acid [1] 28/7 anyone [3] 105/23 168/19 234/2 215/14 217/11217/23219/16
across [2] 54/20 228/1 anytime [6] 39/7 42/18 72/1 O 79/4 98/17 attempted [4] 106/15 141/22 142/2
acted [2] 139/18 140/1 103/7 194/1
acting [1] 7/21 anywhere [1] 151/20 attend [2] 25/23 26/4
activated[1] 211/18 aorta [1 J 164/1 attended [6] 25/17 27 /11 124/24 125/4
active [1] 150/16 apparatus [2] 194/19 196/18 125/6 125/9
actively [2] 133/14 133/21 apparent (1] 83/15 attention [16] 8/12 167/5 168/1 172/4
additional [15] 14/25 24/6 24/10 60120 appear [1 OJ 41 /16 43/8 63/5 85/2 172/7 172/14 173/20 182/20 183/20
61 /7 125/24 135/21 153/11 159/21 114/13 138/20 190/6 193/5 200/2 184/5 184/14 185/3 188/23 189/1
160/18 189/19 213/19 220/23 221/21 231 /15 204/14 214/11
226/1 appearance [6] 5/7 43/6 85/14 94/23 Attorney [143] 1/20 1/22 3/4 3/5 3/6 3/9
adequately (2] 58/5 76/8 114/6 134/25 3/10 3/11 3112 3/14 3/15 3/16 3117 3/20
adjourn (1) 123/4 APPEARANCES [2] 1/13 5/4 3/21 3/22 4/4 4/5 4/8 4/9 4111 5/5 5/9
adjourned {2] 233/23 234/4 appeared [12] 1/25 41/17 45/17 62/10 5/9 5/10 5/14 5/16 5/18 6/4 11 /11 11 /16
admission [1) 16/15 69/9 101 /9 120/1 153/25 154/12 184/20 11 /23 12/6 12/7 12/16 12/18 13/5 14/19
ADMITTED (1] 4/13 184/21 185/21 14/22 14/23 14/25 15/2 15/8 15/10
admonition [1] 234/2 appearing [1] 186/22 16/12 16/18 16/23 22/9 22/11 22/19
adult [1] 29/9 appears [6] 5/1 O 5/11 81/18 187/22 22/22 23/8 65/3 65/12 65/14 68/13
advanced (2] 25/22 125/6 197/18 206/15 68/23 68/25 76/20 76/25 77/3 77/6
advantage [1] 218/25 applicable [1] 210/6 77 /14 77 /16 78/2 81112 82/1 5 82/17
affect [1 J 169117 appl ication [4) 208/2 208/3 212/9 82/21 84/21 89/5 103/19 103/21 103/23
affiliation f1] 214/8 212/10 103/25 117/2 117/4 121/12 123/5 123/8
affiliations [1 J 212/15 applications [3] 25/18 38/11 38/13 123/13 123/23 143/14 143/17 143/20
African [1] 73/16 applied (2] 191 /19 218/17 144/18 152/16 152/19 152/25 153/2
afternoon (7] 123/11 167/18 167/19 approach [2] 12/16 218/19 163/7 163/8 163/11 165/9 165/11
180/25 182/20 233/9 233/10 appropriate [2] 11 /25 33/12 165/17 165/19 165/21 165/25 166/10
afterwards [1] 164/22 approximately [21] 25/2 26/20 26/25 170/10 170/13 170/25 171/5 17118
age [1] 154/20 30/8 64/20 104/2 126/13 146/16 169/24 17219 172/12 172/16 172/19 173/6
agencies [3] 33/1 38/16 212/16 181 /2 182/6 182/15 185/12 185/13 180/10 180/14 180/17 180/22 180/24
agency (1] 39/3 189/2 196/13 209/18 210/14 213/5 181/7181/17 187/12 187/14 187/19
agent [12] 19/2 181/14 181/19 184/10 213/7 215/13 187/20 200/6 200/11 200/14 200/16
20317 208/18 214/25 220/3 223/1 223/8 APRIL [1] 1/10 203/11 203/13 203/14 206/17 206/20
228/18 233/14 aren't [1] 83/21 206/24 207 /2 207 /14 215/2 232/16
ages [1 J 220/22 argument[1] 11/17 233/1 233/4 233/8 233/11 233/17
agg ressive (1] 187/5 arm [1] 157/3 233/18 233/20 233/25
agree [4] 117/10 117/25122/14144/11 arrangement (2] 167/15 176/4 attorney's [1] 32/25
ahead [31 103/22 143/25 153/2 arrested [3] 19/22 21122 22/4 attribute [11 73/6
alive [4] 14/4 15/24 155/21 198/4 arri [1] 203/24 attribution [1] 73/1
allegations (1) 122/11 arrival (1] 194/12 audit [1] 31/14
alleged [4] 23/20 23/21 34/20 34/20 arrived [6] 194/7 194/8 194115 194/17 audited [1] 31/22
Allen [1] 181/14 202/19 205/15 auditors [2] 32/3 32/5
alligatoring [1] 191/9 arro [1] 205/14 audits (1] 32/20
allow [1] 26/12 arson [4] 182/12 182/13 191 /8 194/2 August [7] 174/10 174/13 174/15
allows [2] 35/17 36/9 artery (1] 164/1 176/10 180/19 220/6 221 /22
alone [1 J 139/18 ASCLD (1) 31/11 August 25 [1] 221/22
along [8] 63/2 63/4 64/19 103/3 134/10 ashen [1] 183/15 August 30 [1] 220/6
136/22 17 8/15 179/23 ashened (1 J 202/4 authorized (2) 32/23 32/24
Amber (1] 167/18 Ashley's [2] 9/11 9/12 average [1] 146/25
amelogenin [1] 53/5 aspect (1 OJ 225/23 226/5 226/6 226/8 AVERY (56] 3/3 5/19 5/22 6/2 6/15 41 /5
America (2] 213/4 213/8 226/10 226/10 226/15 227/11 227/12 49/13 50/4 5019 50/25 51 /5 51 /16 52/16
American (5] 31/12 73/17 213/21 214/1 227/14 52120 52/22 53/10 53/19 53/23 54/3
214/9 aspects [1] 225/22 56/4 56/13 56/18 56/23 58/11 58/21
among (2] 217/14 234/3 assault[2] 122/12 127/16 58/23 75/3 90/4 94/10 94/15 96/1 97/4
amount (12] 95/5 106/7 106/23 108/25 assign [3] 37/10 55/4 69/12 99/21101/2 101/23 131/25 156/5 168/4
139/23 155/11 155/13157/19158/10 assigned [3] 32/4 32/5 74/1 169/5 169114 173/15 173/17 174/5
163/22 220/17 220/18 assignment [3] 182/7 182/9 182/10 174/17 174/20 175/4 175/10 175/13
amounts [1] 109/21 assist [13) 27/21 183/1 189/9 194/9 176/13176/16176/16176/22177/10
amplifies [1] 50/15 208/21211/22213/12 213/16 213/17 183/2 183110 183/25
biological [31) 23/21 23/22 29/24 34/8 135/24 136/5 137116 137/20 138/22
A 34/9 34/15 34/19 35/24 37/21 42/16 140/4 140/6 141/3 141/8 141/8 149/20
Avery's [14] 51/22 56/11 76/2 78/3 42/23 43/13 53/2 78/12 79/1 82/1 83/10 151/3 151/4 151/20 152/1159/17 161/3
100/8 100/9 108/2 112/19 132/4 176/4 86/11 86/20 91 /15 92/8 92/15 94/4 blowback [6] 161/16 161/22 162/3
176/6 183/21 185/15 186/1 97/21 100/2 105/5 105/24 115/11 162/4 162/9 162/13
awarded [1) 31/17 116/16118116165/4 blows [1] 127/19
away [4] 18/23 178/18 189/3 189/12 biology [2] 25/8 25/21 blueprint [2] 28/20 28/22
awful r1 i 49/12 birthday [7] 8/23 9/10 9/14 9/17 9/19 board(10] 211/25212/3 212/11212/17
9122 18/14 212/22 212/25 213/6 21317 214/8 214/9
8 bit [18) 7/15 7/17 45/23 66/10 107/22 Bobby [1] 17/14
B-r-a-n-d-t [1] 166/8 108/10 134/13 158/16 170/4 187/11 body [35) 11 /9 13/24 14/1 15/19 20/12
b-u-c-c-a-1 [1 J 225/20 188/2 188/22 209/4 209/11 215/6 21/5 21/8 21/18 28/25 34/6 34/10 34/23
B.S [3) 146/11 146/13 209/8 218/24 221/23 221/24 35/9 35/13 137/19141/3141/8147/22
Bachelor [1] 25/8 bite (41 208/12 209/17 210/21 220/15 148/5 149/20 150/17 150/20 150/23
Bachelor's [4] 124/5 166/18 166/21 bitewing [6) 220/12 220/13 220/21 151/18 151/20 151/22 151/25152/6
171/14 221/8 221/11 231/14 152/7 153/16 155/20 169/6 169/14
background [2) 124/4 215/7 biting [2] 187/18 227/23 230/13 230/15
backgrounds [1] 32/15 Black [1] 83/1 bone (36] 68/11 69/6 6911 o 69/18 184/2
backseat [1) 49/2 blade [5] 102/17 193/4 193/4 193/5 184/22 186/3 188/18 189/2 189/4
bad[1] 116/14 197/5 189/11 189/20 189/23 190/4 193/13
badly [1] 224/20 blades [1] 19117 193/24 195/15 195/18 204/7 204/11
bag [1] 60/8 Blaine [1] 17/12 204/1 5 204/16 204/18 204/20 204/21
bagged [1 J 198/14 bleach [14] 114/5114/14114/16114/17 204/24 205/3 216/4 216/22 217/3
bar [3] 39/4 39/9 54/18 114/18114/19114/24 115/14115/19 220/19 223/11223/14227/13 230/15
Barbara's [2] 6/21 6/21 120/1 120/4 120/9 164/25 165/13 231/5
bare [1] 112/17 bleaching [2] 120/5 120/10 bones [3) 193/24 205/1 1 205/12
barking [1] 187/9 bleeding [5) 133/14 133/21 148/15 bonfire [3] 10/20 11 /5 11 /5
barrel [1 OJ 80/3 80/3 80/4 80/6 80/8 164/12 164/13 bookcase [3] 176/20 177/7 178/23
80/11 80/23 81 /2 111 /10 162/6 blood [226] 34/8 34/12 34/12 37/6 37/15 bottom [12) 11212 120/20 130/24 178/2
bathroom [2] 100/9 101 /12 37/16 42/16 43/1 43/6 43/8 43/15 43/17 191/17 191/19 191/21 192/4 192/5
battery (3] 87/11 142/1 0 142/14 43/18 43/20 43/20 43/22 44/1 45/7 192/25 193/3 221/12
Bau mg a mer ( 1] 168/15 45/17 47/8 47/12 51/23 52/7 52/15 box (2) 187/21 195/20
Baumgartner [3] 167/16 168/12 168/15 53/1 3 53/23 55/1 57/25 59/7 59/13 box-like (1] 187/21
bay [3] 65/7 128/20 142/17 61/20 61/23 63/5 63/10 64/2 64/5 66/23 boxes [1) 93/11
bear [1) 199/3 6716 67/18 71/8 71/17 75/12 78/21 boy [1] 7/23
bed (13) 155/17 176119 177/7 177/20 78/23 80/5 80/8 80/15 82/5 83/14 83/15 BRANCH [2) 1/1 235/5
177/24178/3178/14178/17179/2 83/24 84/8 84/19 85/12 85115 85/18 brand [1] 114/3
179/5 179/10 179/23 180/7 85/24 86/5 86/9 86/15 86/15 86/19 87/1 BRANDT [4) 3/19 165/20 166/3 166/8
bedding (9) 23/19 91/14 91/24 91/25 88/13 88/14 90/2190/2291/1 91/5 91/9 break [4) 70/21 77/8 77/9 180/25
92/4 92/6 92/9 122/1 5 122/20 91/12 91/12 91/18 91/20 93/12 94/19 BRENDAN [49) 1/7 1/24 5/3 5/10 6/16
bedroom [6] 101 /12 176/13 176/17 94/21 94/23 94/24 99/10 99/12 100/1 6/18 6/23 6/25 714 7110 8/13 8/1 7 9/25
177/11 179/18 180/19 100/8 100/15 100/19 100/20 100/22 1012 10/6 11 /4 11 /9 1218 1311 7 14/3
begun [1] 195/3 101/10 101/11 101/17101/20 102/9 14/6 14/14 14/1715/18 15/24 16/9
behind [14] 20/7 110/5 110/10 111/3 102/13 102/18 103/6 103/10 105/2 16/24 17119 18/4 18/15 18/17 19/22
134/11137/13141/10152/2183/20 10512 105/3 105/6 105/12 106/4 106/11 20/18 77/24 78/5 81/8 89/25 90/10
183/25 184/4 185115 186/1 201 /20 106/1 8 107/24 108/2 108/5 108/21 90/19 94/17 96/5 97/7 101 /6 102/1
Belgian [1] 186/22 108/24 109/4 109/7 109/17 111/11 103/11 103/16 113/19 114/1 114/11
believed [5) 150/20 188/18 189/19 113/18 113/24 114/6 114/8 115/10 Brendan's (3] 6/21 21/1 91/20
189/22 204/6 117/6117/7117/8117/11117/13 Brewer [1] 167/18
Bellin [1] 65/7 117/14 117/15 118/2 118/3 118/6 118/7 brittle (2) 216/24 219/2
belt [7] 188/8 191/6 195/16 197/5 118/12 118/22 120/11 120/17 124/20 broad (1] 146/2
197/21 197/21 204/12 124123 124125 125/5 125n 125112 broke [1] 18/10
belted [7] 188/12 188/13 188/14 188/19 125/23 126/2 126/6 126/9 126/24 127/4 broken [1] 219/7
189/24 201/17 202/25 127/6 127/6 127/19 127/22 128/1 brother [2] 6/21 17/12
belts [2] 189/23 204/8 128/23 129/4 129/5 129/7 131/10 brothers [1] 17/14
bench [7] 47/21114/19114/22130/24 131/19132/6 132/10 132/15132/24 brought [6] 24/15 38/25 41 /4 190/14
188/1 7 199/16 199/19 133/2 133/2 133/8 133/13 134/6 135/17 220/3 220/12
beneficial [2] 220/24 224/4 135/18 136/3 136/5 136/19 137/10 brown (10] 45/14 46/11 46/23 48/18
benefit [2] 155/6 218/21 137/11137/13138/22139/7139/23 49/1 62/19 63/15 64/16 109/8 114/7
benefits [1) 218/22 140/6 140/22 145/6 146/1 146/4 146/21 brownish [2) 84/6 120/19
beside (1) 202/25 146/24 149/3 150/15 151/5 151/21 brushed [1) 119/25
besides [3] 37/25 38/13 145/5 152/9 153/15 153/17 155/9 155/14 Bryan [1] 17/16
best[?] 148/21 169/24 170/1 197/6 155/1 8 155/24 155/25 156/1 156/2 buccal [17) 36/24 37/3 37/4 37/7 49/12
224/9 224/25 235/13 156/8 157/22 157/22 158/5 158/5 158/7 49/15 50/3 50/9 51/22 56/3 58/21 65/22
bicuspid [3] 224/23 226/23 227/1 158/15158/18 158/21158/21 159/17 225/19 225/21 225/23 226/5 229/20
big [8] 35/3 45/1 61/17 141 /18 204/18 160/2 160/2 160/4 161/17 162/7 163/12 bucket [1 J 130/24
218/25 219/1 222/17 163/12 163/16 163/20 163/22 164/4 buckle [1] 195/16
bigger (1] 226/16 164n 164/16 164/19 154120 15511 build {2] 28/20 28/21
biggest [1] 213/23 169/10 230/17 bu ilt [1] 107/19
billion [6) 73/15 73/16 73/18 74/5 74/7 bloodied [1] 135/16 bull [1] 75/5
74/11 bloodshed (1 J 127/9 bullet [19] 75/1 75/5 75/7 75/9 75/11
binders [1] 212/12 bloody [26] 129/12 130/12 131 /5 132/5 75/14 75/19 76/2 76/14 76/17 76/19
biolog [1) 83/9 132/9 132/24 134/18 135/9 135/12 98/23 99/1 99/1 99/14 118/21 118/22
103/2 105/8 106/16 107/7 109/6 109/18 CJ 1 [2] 96/15 97/1
B 109/25110/1110/1113/9115/912119 CJ2 [2] 95/12 97/2
bullet... [2) 119/2 119/7 124/14 146/24 154/20 208/12 209/15 class [1 J 25/22
bumper [2) 136/16 163115 209/16 209/1 7 209/18 210/21 212/13 classes [3] 27/10 171/20 171/23
Bureau [6] 181/21 182/8 182/11 182/12 casings [6] 92/13 92/17 92/20 92/21 classic [3] 135/12 135/14 156/13
182/14 191/8 93/4 119/11 clean [7] 114/4114/19114/19114/24
buried [1] 217/3 categories [3] 128/6129/1114716 115/20 164/25 201 /3
burn [36) 20/7 20/13 21/4 21/18 68/16 category [2] 134117 147/7 cleaned [2] 116119 164/21
74/15 185120 186/18 189/2 189/3 Cates [1 J 194/11 cleaning [1] 115/19
189112 189/18 189/18 189/21 190/7 Caucasian [2] 73/15 74/8 clear [5] 15/11 145111 190/25 199/22
190112 190120 191111192118194n caused[2] 151/21159/11 209/24
194/8 19712 199/21 202/7 202/13 causing [2] 140/5 162/7 clearly [1 J 199/17
202/21 202/23 203/20 203/21 203/23 CD [3] 48/18 52/10 130/25 CLERK [2] 5/20 172/21
204/3 204/16 205/4 231/6 233/15 cell (7] 28/9 34/10 34/22 65/21 79/2 close [8] 6/23 62/3 175/20 202/6 202/8
233/16 79/5 118/16 232/8 232/9 232112
burned [20] 68/12 69/9 69/18 188/15 cells (20] 29/8 34/5 34/13 34/13 34/14 close-up [1] 62/3
188/15 189/20 191/3 192/3 199/15 34/15 37 /9 49116 65/16 65/22 65/25 closely [1 J 198/22
201122 20617 20619 210/3 215/21 10915 109/8 109/14 11 on 11018 110111 closer [6] 7/17 13/19 24/19 82/18
216/23 217/13 219/3 224/19 226/9 110/23 118/2 118/8 193/17 198/23
226/14 cellular [2] 28/24 29/4 clothing [7] 23/19 42/20 91/14 125/10
burning [3] 191/15 191/17 191/20 center [6] 128/20 185/17 185/18 209/20 125/13 125/21 164/15
business [3] 144/17 183/10 183/11 211/1 211/19 code [2] 39/9 54/18
busy [4] 121/17121/18 194/3 194/4 central [1] 222116 coding [1] 39/4
BZ f11 69/16 certificate [2] 31 /11 31 /17 coincide [1] 23111 8
c certificates [1] 31/9
certification (1] 211/25
collect (4] 65/23 87/6 87118175/6
collected (17] 45/2 45/4 45/14 45/15
C-u-1-h-a-n-e [1] 23/6 certified [6) 212/3 212/11 212/22 212/25 46/3 46/11 47/8 47/14 48/16 62/14
cabinet [2) 176/19 177/8 213/6 213/7 65/17 87/8 87/10 87/12 87/14 87/17
cable [1 J 87/11 certify [1) 23516 198/13
cables [1] 142/14 cervical [1] 65/17 collecting [2] 45/19 47/1 5
calculate [1] 73122 CF [3] 1/6 5/4 186/9 College [1] 209n
caliber [5] 111/8 157/15 157/16 157/17 chain [1 J 39/24 color [2] 29/10 29/11
157/18 chair [2] 16/3 21/12 colored [1] 120/21
calls [6] 175/3 175/4 175/9 175/16 chance [3] 71 /4 97/23 158/25 com [2] 38/6 99117
175/21 194/1 changed [1] 8/6 combination [5] 112/1 112/6 133/8
Calumet (2] 68/17 198/16 characteristic [1] 135/9 133/20 137/15
Canada [1] 213/4 characteristics [8] 28/17 29/12 89/1 o combinations [1] 133/13
candidate [1] 132/8 89/16 134/21 135/8 147/8 148/25 combine [1 ] 218/24
Candy [1] 6/15 characterization [1] 178/3 coming (2] 131119 154/1
capacity (2] 167/23 207/18 charged (1] 21/24 comma [2] 51/6 51/17
capital [1] 196/12 charred [14] 68/12 68/15 68/17 69/7 comment[1] 117/6
car [14) 42/15 43/3 43/9 46/146/36717 69/21 70/1 7014 74/14 184/2 184/22 Commenting [1] 17111
93/8101125132n 133/23134n 141111 189/20 193/24 216/23 219/3 comments [4) 117/511811121/11
163/15 185/16 charring (2) 191120 193/3 212/22
cardboard (1) 93/11 charts [1] 71/6 common (12] 34/7 72/12 72/14 72/20
care [2] 7/2 207/23 cheaper (1) 210/9 73/11 122/16 122/16 150/8 172/2
career [1] 16311 check [8) 31/25 32/6 32/7 49/17 86/6 216/10 217/21 218/19
carefully (1) 235/8 141 /19 141 /23 142/1 commonly [1 J 208/8
carg [1] 141/9 checked [3] 84/7 85/16 142/21 community [3] 29/20 31/20 38/7
cargo [31] 49/3 52/13 59/10 63/3 63/16 checks [2] 32/1 4 142/9 company [3] 30/19 30/22 31/4
63/21 64/17 64/22 66/22 67/6 67 /19 cheek [8] 37/5 37/8 225/21 225/23 compare (22] 24/3 28/19 35/21 36/22
71/9 71/17 88/5108/5133/22 134/3 226/8 226/14 226/15 227/14 37/18 49/21 50/151/451/2156/258/10
136/1 4 137/19 137/21 138/5 140/13 chemical [1 J 83/23 66/20 67/5 72/1 76/4 117/17 217/9
140/18 140/23 141 /4 141/9 149/17 chemistry [4) 25/22 124/5 146/12 219/20 219/20 225/4 226/6 227113
151/1153/8 163/14 163/14 146/13 compared (3) 52/16 156/19 227/13
carpet[1] 154/1 Cherry [3] 59/16 59/21 68/2 comparing (3) 148/14 154/17 230/19
carpeted (3] 153/8 153/15 153/18 chest [1 J 164/11 comparison [1 OJ 89/25 99/17 103/11
carpeting [1] 136/1 Chevalier [1] 9/13 219/17 219/24 222/3 223/19 224/8
carry [2] 106/13 108/7 chew [2) 228/9 228/10 230/4 230/25
case [63) 1/6 30/21 30/23 32/9 38/1 4 chews [2] 70/23 114/17 comparisons [1) 35/12
38/14 38/20 38/24 39/1 4 39/23 39/23 child (3) 171/20 208/12 209/17 compartment (11] 53/14 53/24 59/16
40/2 40/3 40/4 40/5 4019 42/24 44/5 children [3] 166/13 171/24172/3 129/6 129/8 129/9 129/25 130/20
48/19 52/10 54/24 55/24 65/24 77/23 choices [2) 51/19 51119 133/10 133/11 142/9
89/3 91/10 91/17 103/2 103/5 104/3 chose (1) 103/6 competency (1] 25/15
104/5 104/23 105/3 105/19 106/8 chromatograph [1] 145/12 complete [7] 34/16 71/10 71 /15 74/21
10111311911112113121n 12212 chromosome [3] 53/7 53/8 66/15 107/24 108/8 202/8
122/10 129/3 129/5 134/20 139/4 Chuck [1] 194/11 completed [2] 40/20 195/22
154/18 154/19 155/13156/4161/23 circful [1) 138/24 completely [3) 57/10 188/16 199/17
162/15 163/4 208/17 209/3 210/22 circles [2] 134/24 222/6 completion [1] 232/23
210/23 212/6 212/8 214/21 21 4/22 circuit [4] 1/1 1/12 138/25 235/5 component (2) 34/10 125/7
217/24 219/15 234/2 circular [5] 138/17 138/20 138/24 139/4 composite [1] 72/17
cases [32) 32/1 O33/9 33/10 33/11 197/19 compromised [1) 70/19
33/18 33119 71/1 86/22 91/11 95/3 circumstances [2) 11/25 42/25 computer (4) 39/17 54/15 177/5 235/10
148/11 148/16 155/4 155/15 155/17
c counsel [12) 5/315/1 22/21 77/2108/11
122/7 123/11 172/10 180/13 181 /6 156/3 163/21 163/22 163/23 164/3
computer-assisted [1] 23511 O 200/10 232/25 164/6 221/13
computer-generated {1) 177/5 counseling [1) 168/8 cuttings (1) 49/6
computerized [2] 39/4 235/9 counselor [3] 166/19 168/9 168/11 CV [4] 76/23 76/23 214/16 232/24
con [1) 52/23 counselors [4] 10/5 10/22 22/13 22/15 cvanoacrvlate 121 218/17 219/13
concave [1] 206/5 country [4] 36/5 73/25 213/24 222/12
conception 11 J 29/9 county [9] 1/1 68/17 173/23 174/3 183/5
D
concerned [1] 17/19 183/6 198/16 208/22 235/2 D-3 [2] 50/24 51/6
conclude [2) 150/22 157/9 couple [7] 19/22 163/8 183/9 190/2 D13 [1] 71/1
concluded [1 J 149/9 194/22 200/20 218/22 D3 [1] 71/2
concludes [1] 233/8 course (13) 25/20 25/21 30/5 30112 05 [1] 71/1
conclusions [2] 97/1 147/20 105/21 105/21112/12 125/4 125/6 D7 [1] 71/2
concrete [1] 169/11 146/20 147/13155/23 197/5 DAB [1) 32/18
condition [7] 16/18 107/1 4 191/1192/22 courses [1) 171/23 dad [4) 6/14 6/20 6/20 15/15
20013 216/20 217/8 courts [1] 145/8 daily [1] 167/23
conduct [1] 69/17 cous [1] 6/19 dark [1] 230/16
conducted [1) 154/12 cousin [1) 9/11 darkened [2) 193/18 197/1
configuration [1] 180/19 cousins [3) 6/20 169/5 169/13 darkness [3] 196/19 197/25 198/5
configured [1) 177/15 cover [1) 156/20 dashboard [2] 142/3 142/5
confined (1] 155/12 covers [1) 138/7 DASSEY [18) 1/7 1/24 5/4 5/11 6/16
confirming [2] 43/17 43/18 create [2] 80/23 157/13 78/5 81/8 90/10 90/19 96/5 97/7 101/6
confused (6] 16/1 O 19/15 19/16 22/17 created [1] 157/20 102/1 103/11 103/17 113/19 114/1
169/19 170/7 Credibility [1] 171/3 114/11
confusing [1] 93/25 creeper [5] 83/5 83/11 83/22 84/7 84/12 Dassey's [3] 77124 89/25 94/17
conjunction [1] 225/8 creepers [2] 84/15 84/16 data [1] 40/1
connected [1] 29/16 crime (73) 23/11 23/13 23/16 23/17 database (2) 73/23 73/24
connection [1] 153/19 23/20 24/7 24/25 26/8 30/3 30/8 31 /8 date [5] 1/10 26/1 26/5 40/11 215/4
conservative [4] 25/4 30/11 232/2 31/12 33/15 33/24 34/20 35/15 36/1 Dated [1] 235/15
232/14 36/4 37/15 37/16 37/22 38/20 41/4 dates [1 J 40/13
considerable [1] 108/4 45/24 55/4 61 /3 65/9 69/2 69/2 69/12 day [13) 1/5 9/22 15/23 141/24 142/20
consist [2] 129/2 215/19 73/25 81 /22 84/25 92/1 96/18 98/4 173/22174/18 174/21 175/14 182/25
consisted [3] 25/13 212/11 220/5 99/20 102/3 104/2 104/8 115/25 116/21 183/7 212/19 235115
console [2] 45/16 59/22 121/1123/25 124/8 124/12 124/16 DD [1) 79/15
consultant [1] 207/24 124/22 125/6 125/15 125/20 125/22 dead [3) 142/10 155/23 198/4
consumed [3] 188/16 199/17 216/17 128/21 129/17 142/18 146/1 146/2 deal [3] 7/2 155/18 171124
contact[34] 116/5 116/8 128/8 129/10 146/6 164/9 194/3 194/6 194/10 194/17 dealing [1] 34/8
129/11 129/13 130/3 130/10 130/11 195/7 195/21 198/2 198/7 198/8 201 /7 death [1] 229/16
130/13 130/17 130/22 131/3 131/10 201/11 201/13 201/13 202/2 Deb [1] 184/10
131/20 132/10 134/18 134/19 135/10 Crimes [1] 182/11 debris [1 O] 189/21 190/5 195/4 195/8
135/16135/21 135/24 137/2 137/12 Criminal [3] 19/3 181 /20 182/8 195/13 195/22 196/4 198/11 198/14
147/4 159/16160/15160/16 168/3 criminalist [1] 144/23 204/4
168/7 169/22 174/4 174/16 194/1 critical [2] 218/4 218/7 decay [1] 220/19
contacted {3] 161/10 161/12 194/3 cropped [3] 229/2 229/12 230/4 December [3) 8/12 8/18 166/22
contain [3] 40/13 98/11 223/18 cross [20] 3/5 3/1 O 3/15 3/21 4/5 4/9 decent [2] 225/4 225/5
contained [2] 28/22 29/2 16/2116/22 77/13 77/15 143/16 143/19 decide [4) 102124 120/15 121/17 122/2
contains [1] 60/8 170/11 170/12 180/13 180/16 200/9 decided [1] 33/10
continues [1] 5/6 200/13 200/15 233/3 decision [3] 86/16 91/7 95/4
continuing [2] 212/16 213/18 cross-examination [14] 3/5 3/1 O 3/15 decisions [3] 103/3 105/16 121 /13
control [2) 24/12 32/8 3/21 4/5 4/9 16/22 77115 143/19 170/12 decomposed [1) 210/3
Controlled [2] 145/9 145/23 180/16 200/9 200/15 233/3 deemed [1] 212/17
convenient [1] 65/23 crown [9] 216/2 217/4 217/5 218/10 deep [1] 163/23
conversation (14) 8/13 8/17 10/2 10/4 224/14 227 /17 228/8 230/8 230/9 defendant [4] 1/8 1/21 1/23 1/24
10/6 10/9 10/15 10/21 11/4 15/14 15/23 crowns [2] 217/1 224/12 defense [3] 35/3 108/1 O 122/7
168/20 169/25 170/7 crushed [1} 219/5 defined [1] 208/1
conversations (21 14/13 174123 crust (1 ] 45/14 definitely [2) 135/13 162/23
convicted [1] 33/22 crying [2] 8/25 10/1 3 degradation [1] 107/8
conviction [2] 33/9 33/19 CSI [1] 107/17 degrade [1] 70/21
coordinating [1] 124/11 cued [1] 203/12 degraded [1] 112/4
coordinator [4] 124/2 124/1 O 144/2 cuffs [2] 96/24 120/14 degree [19) 25/8 53/22 56/12 58/22
153/20 CULHANE [14] 3/8 22/23 22/25 23/5 67 /16 76/12 124/5 133/12 139/1 140/25
copies [3] 36/10 50/15 107/11 23/9 24/17 34/24 44/11 44/12 59/5 154/22 166/21 166/25 167/9 171/14
copy [3) 27/9 34/16 214/16 77117 104/1 129/16 136/10 191/15 209/6 209/8 212/4
corner [3] 177/22 179/17 179/17 curious [1] 189/17 demeanor [3) 169/17 170/2 170/18
coroner's [1] 32/25 current [2) 124/7 182/7 demonstrating [1] 224/2
Coroners [1] 214/6 currently [5) 30/5 36/2 3717 182/22 demonstration [2] 27/19 50/7
coronoid [1] 223/12 211/6 dental [22) 208/7 208/11 208/13 209/12
correctly [11) 50/8 55/14 56/6 58/5 curriculum [3) 27 /9 126/22 214/16 209/16 209/25 210/1 21017 210/11
58/13 66/6 67/2 67/10 75/25 76/8 curvature [1] 230/22 210/17 210/19 215/22 215/24 216/2
195/10 cuspid [2] 217/6 224/23 216/6 219/2 219/4 220/4 222/6 225/3
correlate [6} 48/7 48/22 62/22 63/22 custody [1] 39/24 226/8 231/7
64/14 64/14 cut (22) 45/6 47/22 48/6 48/12 55/2 dentin (2] 230/12 230114
cotton [4] 44/7 47/17 47120 82/10 131/24131/24 132/4 132/8 133/6 dentist [5] 207/16 212/23 220/14 221/19
99/18 100/21 101/2 101/19 102/21 30/4 30/7 30/10 31/2 31/3 32/5 32/6
D 107/6 107/13 110/20 111 /23 117/10 32/21 34/3 34/5 34/11 34/16 34/21 35/8
dentist... [1] 222/12 117/16118118119/13 35/13 35/18 35/19 36/3 36/8 36/11
dentistry [16] 207/21 207/22 207/22 develope [1 J 50/1 36/14 36/16 36/18 36/18 36/24 37 /12
207/24 207/25 208/1 208/2 208/4 208/6 developed [25) 31/2 36/19 45/21 51/23 3 7/16 3 7/24 38/10 38/16 44/4 44110
209/10 209/15 212/6 214/10 214/19 52/14 53/12 55/23 55/25 56/3 56/9 45/21 47/23 49/5 49/9 49/20 49/24 50/3
215/11231/20 56/19 58/3 58/9 58/21 66/22 67/3 71/8 50/18 50/22 51/1 51/1 51/23 52/14
dentists (6) 213/1213/6213/8 217/15 76/1 76/5 78/3 79/8 103/15 107/16 53/11 53/12 55/3 55/9 55/15 55/22 56/2
220/10 220/10 111 /16 111 /18 56/2 56/14 56/18 57/3 57/14 58/2 58/9
deoxyribonucleic [1] 28/7 developing [1] 77/21 58/10 58/20 58/24 59/4 60/18 62/5
Department[6] 19/3 68/18181/19 development [3) 29/4 29/7 171 /21 64/21 64/25 65/20 66/2 66/6 66/21
181 /23 182/22 211/10 devices [ 1) 195/2 66/24 67/2 67/5 67/18 67/24 68/1 69/17
depend [1] 107/7 devoted [1 J 24/21 69/20 69/25 70/22 70/23 7118 71 /24
depending [3] 42/24 115/12 155/9 diagnostic (1] 38/8 72/10 74/1 75/11 75/17 75/18 75/21
depends [5) 91/10 104/23 110/3 117/13 diagnostics [1 J 65118 75/22 75/25 76/4 76/13 76/19 77120
118/13 diagram [1] 177/5 77124 78/24 79/21 80/24 81/4 81/25
depict [5) 41 /16 129/24 197/18 202112 difference [4] 127/23 127/24 148/22 82/6 83/11 86/1 86/1 86/13 86/21 88/20
22614 151 /13 89/23 89/24 91/2 93/3 93113 93/21 94/6
depicted [18] 178/24 185/8 185/10 differences [6] 108/20 14 7/18 148/17 94/17 95/3 95/16 95/20 95/23 96/2
185/10 186/14 188/6 188/7 192/17 148/24 15711 160/22 96/22 96125 9715 9811 98111 99117
193/19 197/9 198/15 199/24 223/9 difficult [2] 136/23 215/21 100/21101/20101/22102121104/11
225/10 225/16 226/19 227 /8 228/13 digital [1] 142/3 104/15 105/14 106/3 106113 106/21
deployed [1] 211/18 dimensions [2] 149/14 149115 106123 106/23107/10 107/12 107/24
deposited [2] 127/20 130/12 direct [22] 3/4 3/9 3/14 3120 414 4/8 4/11 108/8 108/12 108117 108/22 108/25
depth {1] 149/17 6/3 8/11 23/7 89/4 123/22 146/19 109/19 109/21 109/25 110/2 110/5
deputy [3] 184/11 184/18 194/18 150/24 151/9 151/13166/9173/5 110/10 110/20 111 /3 111 /16 111 /16
describe [23] 34/3 62/9 62/17 68/9 69/1 173/19 181/16 182/20 207/13 111 /20 112/4 112/4 112/8 113/7 113/10
69/5114/3 125/2130/8130/17131/9 directed [5] 152/22 183/20 184/5 184/14 113113 113/14 113/16 114/16 114/17
134/14 136/24 148124 155/6 168/6 185/3 114121 11513 11sn 11519 115116
169/16 176/15 190/25 192/22 203/8 directing [2] 167/5 16811 115/21 115/25 116/4 116/6 116/21
203/17 216/20 direction [2] 25/12 159/15 116/23 117/10 117/12 117/16 117/20
described [8] 49/7 54/8 75/1 136/10 directions [1] 28/23 117/22 117/24 118/12 119/4 119/12
137/2 149/4 158/12 193/15 directly [6] 11 /20 12/1 155/14 185/15 119/21 121/4 121/5 121/15122/17
describing [2] 147/2 205/23 193/18 199/18 143/8 165/4 210/9
description [1] 135/23 Directors [1] 31/12 ONA's [2] 29/23 116/3
design [1] 190/10 directs [2] 29/4 29/7 Doctor {3) 208/17 214/22 231 /1
designation [26] 39/9 39/13 44/20 45/13 dirt [4] 184/4 187/6 187/7 187/8 document [2] 126/21 145/24
45/23 45/25 46/2 46/10 48/3 48/17 disaster [6] 208/1 O 210/25 211 /4 211 /5 documentation [3] 39/22 212/1 3 212/15
48/25 54/17 54/17 55/4 55/7 60/6 6017 211/15213/10 documents [2] 11 /19 145/24
61/13 61/19 62/21 63/17 69/12 75/6 disasters [1) 38/9 dog [6] 186/24 187/2 187/4 187/8
79/15 90/15 99/6 discern [2) 118/21 160/21 187/11 187/18
designations [1] 50/17 discipline [2] 144/1 O 146/6 doghouse [2] 187/7 187/24
designed [2] 30/19 221/14 d lsciplines (2] 144/6 144/13 doing [7) 24/24 26/8 30/7 42/17 121/25
desk [2] 176/19 17717 discolored (1) 57/24 142/20 200/20
destroy [2] 115/16 165/3 disconnected (2] 142/15 176/1 Don [1] 207/3
destroyed [4] 116/9 218/11 224/14 discover [1] 154/12 DONALD (3] 4/10 207/6 207/11
230/10 discovered [21 186/25 193/25 door [28] B/22 8/24 63/20 63/20 87/12
destroys [1] 114/17 discoveries [11 193/22 87/20 88/5 101/12 130/1130/21 132/18
det (1] 72/12 discovering {1] 189/14 136/18 136/25 137/23 138/5 138/6
detached [1] 185/16 discovery [1] 193/13 138/10 138/10 138/21 139/19 140/8
detect[4] 115/17 116/10 116/24120/17 discuss [1] 141/14 141/2 151/17 152/14 154/16 157/22
detectable (1) 120/21 discusses (1] 115/25 177/23 179/8
detection (2] 106/24 107/18 discussion [1] 170/3 doors (1) 57/12
detergent (1] 115/15 disfigurement [1] 210/4 doorway [1] 180/6
determination [5} 37/20 85/11 86/18 display [7] 5018 56/6 58/13 66/6 69/25 double (1] 198/14
99/8 198/9 75/25 76/9 DR (21 4/10 231/8
determinations [1] 127/4 displays [4] 55/15 58/6 67/2 67/11 Dr. [1] 232/19
determine (36] 60/14 72/12 75/10 79/21 disposal [1] 219124 Dr. Simley [1] 232/19
80/13 80/21 83/9 83/23 86/11 86/19 distal [1] 226/2 draining (1] 156/1
88/20 90/20 91 /1 91 /1 92/10 92/14 distance (1) 230/6 drank [1] 60/15
93/11 96/21 96121 98/6 98/14 99/10 distinctive [1) 156/11 draw [1] 172/7
102/9 102/20 112/8 120/15 125/23 disting [1] 127/24 drawing (1] 214/11
127/23 145/12 154/13 154/17 161/1 distinguish [7) 127/24 148/2 151/11 dresser (4] 176/20 177/8 179/14 179/16
161/21 163/22 205/12 215/9 151/18 151/24 157/15 204/25 drew [4] 188/23 189/1 197/24 204/13
determined [1] 29/12 distinguished (1] 205/5 drinking [1) 60/16
determines [2] 28/14 110/14 district [2] 32/24 215/2 drip[1] 132/25
determining [3) 102/12 122/17 127/7 Division [2] 181/20 18218 dripped (1] 158/16
devel [1) 81/24 DMORT [3] 211/14 211/14 211/16 driver's [3) 45/4 129/25 130/7
develop (44] 23/23 24/2 35/18 35/19 DNA [228] 23/17 23/23 23/25 24/2 driving [1] 174/1
36/16 36/23 36/24 37/12 37/15 47/23 24/22 24/24 25/2 25/7 25/9 25/18 25/23 drop [5] 132/19 132120 132/22 133/5
49/9 50/3 53/18 55/9 66/2 69/20 72/10 26/2 26/22 27/2 27117 27/2128/628/7 148/15
75/22 78/9 78/24 81/4 81/6 81/9 81/24 28/10 28/11 28/12 28/15 28/17 28/19 droplet [1] 133/3
82/12 83/11 86/1 90/3 92/16 93/21 94/6 28/24 29/3 29/4 29/7 29/15 29/20 30/2 dropped [1] 219/6
63/13 examining [4] 23/18 82/2 84/24 125/13
D envelopes [2] 44/13 61/7 except [2] 87/5 87/9
drug [3] 145/20 145/20 145/21 environmental [1] 116/9 exchange [1) 26/13
drunk [1] 174/1 enzymes [1] 29/1 exclude [2] 97/7 216/11
due [2) 196/19 196/19 epithelial [2) 34/13 109/13 excluded [4) 9613 96/7 97111 97 /12
duly [7] 5/23 23/1 123/17 166/4 172/24 equipment (4) 24/14 26/10 32/8 194/22 excluding [2) 101/24 102/1
181/10 207/7 erect [2] 194/20 194/23 exclusion [1] 232/3
Duranda [1) 208/19 erecting [1) 194/19 excuse [10) 82/9 89/7 97/14 98/19
duties [7] 23/15 24/6 24/10 98/4 124/8 Ertl [3) 194/11 194/18 19517 99/23 102/6 160/6 165/20 180/15
144/3 153/20 escapes [1] 191/25 223/17
especially [4] 34/17 103/2 153/10 execute [1 J 183/10
E 155/20 execution (1] 183/1
ear [4] 220/8 220/9 228/20 228/20 essentially [4] 180/18 201117 217/1 exhibit [124] 12/15 12/20 12/23 16/14
Earl [1] 6/15 231/25 2715 2717 41/21 44/14 44/15 44/23
earlier [4] 50/13 68/14 102/12 137/2 estimate [3] 30/8 169/24 210/14 45/11 46/8 46/13 46/20 47/1 47/25 48/8
early [1] 168/2 estimated [3] 185/11 189/12 204119 48/14 48/21 48/23 54/7 56/20 56/25
easier [4] 28/9 117/8 117/1 O 210/8 estimates [1) 175119 60/2 60/3 61/15 62/2 62116 62/23 63/12
easiest [1 J 28/19 etc [1) 99/21 63122 64(8 64110 64/12 64/17 68/7
easily [5] 117/16 117/23 219/5 222/23 ev [1] 205/19 74/24 74/25 75/1 75/3 76/25 79/17
224/15 evaluated [1) 31/17 79/17 81 /13 81 /15 82/16 84/22 84/23
east [2J 178/11 179/24 event [2) 28/1 74/14 84/24 85/3 93/18 95/9 95/9 96/10
easy [2] 65/23 216/1 O eventually [2] 45/20 115/15 114/10 126/19 128/9 128/11 129/15
EDELSTEIN [18] 1/22 3/15 3/17 5/10 everybody {1] 7118 130/15 131/9 131/23 132/12 134/1
81/12 82/15 84/21 143/17143/20 everybody's [1 J 162/2 136/10 138/2 140/10 141115 142114
152116 152/19 152/25 153/2 163/7 everyone [1 J 199/6 177/4 177/15 178124 179122 184/25
165/9 165/11 165/17 187112 everything [9) 16111 19117 28/23 29/1 185/6 186/7 186/8 186/9 186/1 0 186/14
edge [7] 82/9 130/23 130/23 135/3 31 /24 46/2 220/8 220/11 228/20 188/4 188/5 18816 189/7 190/16 190/19
199/20 202/6 20612 evidence (85) 23/18 24/5 30/9 3112 192/14 192/15 193/19 195/25 196/1
edges [2] 57/21 82/10 31 /25 32/1 32/2 33/13 36/20 38/15 196/2 197/9 197/23 198/25 199/1 199/8
education [6] 25/6 126/24 161/2 166/19 38/25 39/1 39/2 39/6 39/7 39/12 39/18 199/22 199/24 201 /14 202/22 20318
212/16 213/18 39/19 39121 40/10 41 /11 42/19 42122 205122 214/12 214/13 214/15 222/25
educational (5] 27/11 32/14124/3 49/21 50/2 51 /4 52/19 52/21 52/23 53/9 223/2 223/3 223/6 223/10 223/17
166/16 214/18 54/4 54/11 54/20 55/23 58/18 67/13 223/18 225/14 225/15 227/21 228/15
effect [3) 157/21 191110 191/23 67/22 74/6 76/21 78/12 79/6 83/13 229/1 229/13 230/3 232/20 232/22
efforts [1] 11 /21 86/25 103/15 104/2 104/22 105/1 105/7 232/23 233/12
eight [8] 184/3 189/3 189/5 189112 105/14 105/18 105/18 105/24 110/5 exhibits (10] 4/13 6012161/674124
193/14 194/24 198/12 204115 122/3 122/6 128/10 143/8 143/9 143/10 76121 7714 165122 190/14 200/7 232/19
electronics { 1] 142/4 150/15 150/16 150/20 150/24 151 /8 existence [2] 83123 84/19
eligible [1] 212/18 151/9156/8 159/8 165/23 198/16 200/7 expect [9] 74/5 7416 12014 144/5 148/9
elliptical [4) 134/23 139/2 139/6 158/13 201 /5 203/6 208/13 209/17 215/15 148/21 152/9 153/8 155/18
Elmhurst [1) 209/7 215/16 215/17 218123 219/8 219/14 experience [14] 77/20 125/11 126/24
ELMO [3] 81113 84/22 205/23 224/10 225/1 225/4 22515 232118 147/13 152/5 157/8 16112 161/17
emerge [3] 147/14 156/1 2 157/2 evident [2) 16014 161/22 162121191/22 209/12 210/25 212/4
emerges [1] 156/18 evidential [1] 205119 214/18
employ [1] 182/22 evidentiary [1] 143/12 experiences [1] 213/19
employed [6] 23/12 123/24 125/16 Ex [1] 202/22 experimentation [1] 158/20
167/11181122 207/17 exact {1] 62/12 expert [7] 26/22 27/2 126/9 126/14
employment [1 ] 167/8 exactly [11) 15/5 27 /17 28/24 46/6 84/3 145/7 146/19 210111
enamel (2] 23018 230/13 99/11 111/1 112/2 12911 150/13 202/12 expertise 141 154/23 204/24 205/4 212/5
encompass [1] 144/5 exam [1] 54/24 explain {26] 27/16 28/16 37/2 38/3
encompasses [1] 144/12 examination [64] 3/4 3/5 3/6 3/9 311 O 38/23 42/3 45/12 45/23 48/1 48/15
encounter [1] 91/17 3/11 3/12 3/14 3/15 3116 3/17 3/20 3/21 50/11 52/15 55/18 57/16 58116 66110
end [15] 7/9 15/12 80/3 80/4 80/5 80/8 3/22 4/4 4/5 4/8 4/9 4/11 6/3 16122 69124 70/3 70/18 104/20 108/22 113/3
80/11 80/19 80/23 138/8 150/9 150/10 22/10 2317 42121 57/19 62/15 69/11 127/3 139113 162/3 224/7
162/5 170/6 204/16 77115 80/19 83/18 85113 103/24 117 /3 explained 121 101 /15 102/12
ended [1] 218/5 123/22 125/9 129/1 129/3 129/4 138/4 explaining {1) 27/21
ends [1] 221/13 143/19 150/14 154/13 155/3 156/8 explanation [1] 223/23
energy [1] 162/8 161/18162/17 163/10 165/10 166/9 exposed (3] 70/20 193/2 193/9
enforcement (9) 32/22 38/1 38/16 38/19 170/12 172/11 173/5 180/16 181 /16 express 111 210/15
65/9 92/1 104/3 104/14 18211 199/1 200/9 200/15 207 /13 21218 extent [3) 16/13 78/4191113
engaged (1] 196/15 212/18 212/18 212/19 225/1 233/3 exterior [1] 87/4
engine [2] 5 7/11 142/9 examinations (4] 104121 142/20 161 /21 external [1) 164/12
enough [13] 89/2 106/2510713107/10 163/1 extract [15) 75/17 83/8 88/10 88/11 93/4
10917 111/24 111/25 112/4 112/5 examine (19) 30/22 31 /1 39/21 104/17 95/20 99/16 102/21 106/19 117/24
132124 140/1 158/10 224/20 105/24 128/22 133/22 137/23 15413 118/12 118118 119/4 119/12 119/20
entire [13] 36/18 51/1 66/17 72/13 159110 190115 196/1 198/22 215/9 extractable (7] 92/11 93112 95/15 96122
72/18 72/20 120/3 120/14 124/21 215/14 216/4 217/10 223/3 225/22 103/9 121115 122/17
140/12 161/5 161/14 221/17 examined [24] 5124 23/2 7516 83/15 extracted (4) 82/11 86n 86/8 103/15
entirety (2] 66/18 221/10 85/6 85/7 8518 85/9 87/8 11411 114/11 extraction [3] 55/3 58/3 106120
entities (1] 228/2 123/18 125/17 134/4 150/25 158/23 extremely [1] 219/2
entrance (1] 138/6 163/2 166/5 172/25 181/11 207/8 eye [2] 29/1 O 120/18
entry [1 J 213/22 216/22 217/12 217/14 eyes [2] 83/20 186/19
envelope [5) 48/1 48/13 48/22 61 /9 Examiners (1] 214/6 eyetooth [1 ] 217/6
five (8) 25/5 31/14 31/18 114/18 123/3 fragment's (1] 189/11
F 125/14 197/24 225/22 fragmented (1] 215/22
face (2) 2911 1 210/5 five-and-a-half [1] 125/14 fragments [25] 50/25 55/22 55/24 70/25
facing [2] 178/3 199/18 five -minute [1] 123/3 71 /3 190/4 195/15 204/24 205/5 205/6
factor (1] 116/9 FK [3] 99/6 99/10 119/7 216/2 216/3 216/5 216/21 216/22 217/9
fairly[11) 61/2462/1162/13114/4 FL (8) 75/6 76/1 76/14 76/17 98/24 217/10 218/2 218/8 223/11 223/16
117/14 118/3 139/23 162/20 162/22 99/11 99/15 118/21 224/16 224/18 229/6 231 /5
198/6 202/14 flags [1) 202/1 frame (3) 154/25 182/16 199/16
fall (2) 132/25 134/17 flat[1) 195/9 frankly [1) 12/1
fallen (1) 139/6 flip (1 J 13512 free (1] 28/4
FALLON (54) 1/ 16 3/4 3/6 3/20 3/22 4/8 floor (2) 45/16 100/9 freed (1) 33/20
4/11 5/5 5/8 5/14 5/16 5/18 6/4 11 /22 flow[1 4] 138/11139/10139/15139/17 FREMGEN [52] 1/20 3/5 3/10 3/12 3/21
11/23 12/6 12/7 12/16 12/18 13/5 14/22 139/22 155/24 157/23 157/25 158/6 4/5 4/9 5/9 5/9 11/11 11/14 11/16 14/19
14/25 15/7 15/8 15/10 16/12 18/25 22/9 158/11 158/12 158/17 158/19 158/22 14/23 15/2 16/18 16/23 65/4 65/12
22/11 22/19 123/5 123/8 165/19 166/10 flowed [1] 139/16 68/14 68/18 68/22 68/23 77/3 77/13
170/10 170/25 171 /5 172/12 172/16 fluid [6) 80/22 83/10 86/12 103/9 115/11 77/14 77/16 82/17 82/21103/19111/7
181n 181111187/14 187/19 181120 118/16 112/18113/17117/2117/4165/25
20016 206/20 206/24 207/2 207/14 fluids (2) 35/24 105/25 170/13 171 /8 172/9 180/14 180/17
232/16 233/8 233/18 233/20 233/25 flung (4] 138/22 139/7 140/5 151/21 180/22 200/11 200/14 200/16 203/13
families (1] 17/6 focus (4) 82/18 91/12 105/13105/13 203/14 206/17 233/1 233/4 233/11
family (3) 78/7 207122 220/14 focused (2) 91/18 103/5 233/17
fancy [1] 214/10 focusing (3] 86/14 86/25 105/5 frequency (1) 74/1
far (8] 8/2 11 /19 36/4 102/25 143/12 folks (3] 194/2 194/4 195/7 frequently [1) 38/7
154/9 154/11 203/22 follow (1] 35/25 Freymiller [2) 208/19 21 4/25
farthest (1) 178/8 followed [2] 78/5 101 /14 Fridays [1] 167/25
Fassbender [6) 10/9 10/23 13/7 195/25 following [1) 32/12 friend [1] 8/24
197/8 223/2 follows [7) 5/24 23/2 123/18 166/5 friendly (2) 7/25 8/3
father [1] 29/25 172/25 181/1 1 207/8 friends (2) 6/23 8/22
FBI (2) 32/19 73/24 foot(4] 185/18 185/18 185/22 206/6 Froehlich (1] 215/2
February (6] 7/9 9/18 9/20 15/12 19/19 forceps [1] 11 4/20 front (23] 45/4 48/5 48/9 48/12 48/19
20/1 7 foregoing [2) 235n 235n 12915 12919 129125 13on 130120
feel (3) 11/24 28/4 122/3 foremost [1] 168/7 130/21 130/22 130/23 151/17 185/4
feeling [4) 154/20 159/14 168/17 168/25 forensic (29) 23/1 O 25/18 29/14 29/19 186/5 188/1 193/14 199/19 204/16
feet (22] 150/7 150/9 150/9 152/11 30/20 31/20 38/1 124/2 124/10 144/1 222/18 226/2 226/20
184/3 185/12 185/12 185113 185/21 144/17 207/24 207/25 208/1 208/6 full (7) 24/2171/1088/21108/8 111/23
185/23 189/3 189/5 189/12 193/14 209/12 209/1 4 212/6 212/22 212/25 112/5 212/12
194/24 195/2 195/3 195/11 195/12 213/8 213/13 213/21213/24 214/1 function (2) 29/2 29/17
198/12 198/12 204/15 214/9 214/19 215/10 231/20 functional (1) 29/16
felt (4) 122/6 170/4195/14 198/1 forensics [2) 34/18 38/13 furniture (2) 176/15 177/10
FEMA [1) 211/11 forever [1) 219/9 further (23) 16/12 22/19 34/24 43/21
female (4) 53/1 53/6 66/1 4 70/11 form [4) 78/25 79/1 104/17 144/19 43/23 44/4 44/10 7716 86/9 86/16 88/19
few[6) 27/1561/6103/21117/2147/21 formal [1 J 124/3 90/25 106/14 106/15 107/1 121/14
190/14 forth [2] 32/17 32/19 122/8 156/21224/2226112 227/15
fiance (3] 173/18 174/5 175/9 Forty [1] 106/5 232/16 233/7
field (7) 135/11 144/9 144/12 208/2 Forty-one (1] 106/5 future r11 165/3
208/4 214/19 215/10 forward (4] 103/4 107/4 107/4 199/5
fields [1 J 37/25 forwarded [1] 221125
G
Fifteen [3] 6/6 124/17 175/22 found (45] 18/7 20/12 34/4 34/5 34/19 GAHN (29) 1/18 3/9 3/11 3/14 3/16 5/8
fifth (1) 174/1 35/15 49/1 50/18 50/20 52/7 52/12 22/22 23/8 65/3 65/14 68/13 68/25
fifty (2) 68/8 68/9 53/13 53/24 56/1 4 56/22 57/3 57/4 76120 76/25 77/6 7812 89/5 103/21
file [7] 38/11 38/21 38/24 39/23 40/3 58/24 59/6 59/20 60/11 68/1 68/16 103/23 103/25117/5121/12 123/13
40/5 40/9 71/24 74/15 75/2 76/2 76/13 101/10 123/23 143/14 144/18 163/8 163/11
filing [2] 176/19 177/8 101/11105/2 107/24108/2108/4 165/21
fillings (1] 224/13 112/19 113/9 113/24 130/6 142/16 gain [2] 125/19 213/18
film (1] 220/15 150/15 150/19 151 /8 197/1 197/3 204/5 gained [1 J 125/25
finally [4] 48/21 106/19141/13 164/19 four [7] 7/9 8/5 61 /7 64/22 195/3 195/11 games (1) 17/3
Financial [1) 182/11 218/4 garage (12) 20/8 42/5 75/2 76/2 128/20
findings [13) 50/8 52/3 55/15 58/6 58/14 four-month [2] 7/9 815 156/7 183/21 183/21 183/25 184/4
67/11 69/25 70/4 76/9 160/18 209/3 FOX [2] 1/11167/18 185/16 186/1
223/24 224/3 Fox-Brewer (1) 167/18 garment [1) 115/17
fine [5] 66/1 68/2177/1984/4 177/1 fracture (14] 217/16 217/18 217/19 gas (1) 145/11
finger (3) 131/25 148/16 219/5 217/22 217/23 218/3 218/15 218/21 gather [3] 111/25 157/5 159/19
fingerprint (1] 210/6 219/11 219/21 227 /25 228/3 229/23 gender [2] 53/6 70/10
finish (1] 153/4 231/4 gene [1] 29/16
finished (1] 13/10 fractured [2] 227/24 232/21 general (13] 72/13 73/12 135/22 144/24
fire (11) 10/16 11/10 12/9 13/18 15/19 fragment (43) 51/3 51/1 4 51119 68/11 144/25 162/10 162/13171124 196/22
192/5 193/2 193/9 201/25 216/17 69/6 69/18 75/2 75/5 ?Sn 75/9 75/11 207/16 207/22 207/23 220/10
224/14 75/14 75/19 76/17 76/19 98/23 99/2 generalization [1] 113/14
firearm [6] 81 /5 148/10 148/1 4 156/1 1 99/14 99/14 11 8/21 186/3 188/19189/2 generalizations [3] 110/25 111 /6 113/8
162/4 162/16 189/4 189/10 189/14 189/16 189/23 generally (4) 112/24 162/4 183/5 213/3
firearms (2) 163/2 176/23 193/13 204/15 204/18 204/20 204/21 generate (4) 38/20 39/23 40/1 73/10
Firstly (1) 69/24 205/3 223/1 4 226/8 226/12 226/13 generated [4] 40/4 148/13 148/15 177/5
fit (3) 57/5 140/19 150/1 229/8 229/10 229/21 231 /25 232/20 generating (1] 38/24
G half[3J 125114 134124 19416 human (1 OJ 43/18 88/13 158/18 204/22
1 - - - - - - -- -- - - - - - - ' Halloween [4] 7/815/19173/10174/3 204125 20511 2 211n 21118 211 112
genes (2) 29n 29/13 hallway (4) 8/21 180/2 180/3 180/5 215/5
genetic (6) 36/15 50/1 4 55/20 74/17 hammer (2) 190/10 197/4 hundred (3) 213/7 232/5 232/6
74/1 9 89/2 hand (19] 5/2122/242716 41/24 44/12 hypothesis (2) 154/6 154/8
gentlemen (3) 5/2 77 /10 234/1 4 715 60/19 61 /7 109/15 123/15 126/18 hvoothetical 111 148/19
German [2) 186/22 187/4 131 /5 133/6 141115 166/2 172/22
gets (1) 226/14 178/18 187/22 190/15
GG (1) 84/12 handcuffs [1] 97/17 I'd [15) 11/11 27/15 27/16 59/19 60/20
GH [1) 84/12 handed [1) 111 /8 61 /7 64/7 64/8 126/17 130/5 182/19
girl [1) 170/20 handle (7] 87/2188/5113/619113192/8 184/23196/24 212/4 215/3
girlfriend [3) 18/5 18/7 18/9 192/1 9 206/9 I'll [10] 15/8 40119 84/3 148/21 170/10
glass [1] 158/5 handled (1) 191/2 193/11 199/5 202/22 203/9 205/22
gloves[6) 112/13142/25143/2143/7 handles[1] 87/12 l'm[118) 11/16 11/2512/412/1812/21
200/24 201 /9 handling (2) 31 /25 121 /9 13/13 13/21 23/17 24/8 24/9 24/11
Glue [1) 218/17 hands (3) 112/14132/5 201/3 24/14 27/6 34/24 35/7 40/16 50/6 52/1
Gluing [1) 219/10 hang [1] 17/2 5216 54/6 55/13 56/23 58/4 60/1 60/19
gone (5) 217/1219/9224/13 224/15 happened (10) 18/8 20/2 39/25 51/16 61/5 61/6 62/164/964/1166/567/1
228/12 57/9 133/18 141/7141/22 168/13 67/10 68/4 68/5 69/23 74/23 77/17
grabbed [1) 201/9 183/24 81/12 82/15 84/2187/2393/24 95/8
grade [1] 6/11 happens (3] 11311 o 219/7 226/4 96/9 97/25 100/25 106/9 106/9 108/14
gradually [1) 185/12 happy [1] 7/23 109/13 112/16 112/16 11 4/24 124/2
graduated (5) 166/22 167/2 207/19 happy-go-lucky (1) 7/23 124/10 124/12 126/18 128/9 129/14
209n 20919 hard [4) 20/4 117/17 121122 202112 130/14131/8 131/22 132/11 133/25
grainy [1) 226/6 harder [1) 230/15 136/9 138/1 138/13 140/9 141 /14 144/1
grandma's [1 J 10/18 hardest (2) 230/13 230/14 144/19 145/10 148/3 148/13 149/9
granted (1) 171/6 hate [1] 152/20 151/10 152/25156/22 158/25 160/7
grass [1) 186/1 Hau (3] 2/3 235/4 235/19 166/12 173/19 177/1 177/3 177/25
gravel [5] 185/11 185/14 185/19 185/23 head [15) 135/15 141 /3 141 /8 149/24 178/10 179/21 181 /19 186/9 190/15
185/24 150/6 150/9 151/5151/6 152/1 152/10 195/9 195/24195/24197/8 199/2
gravity [4] 133/1 139/18 140/1 157/21 157/3 159/18 161/3 161/6 163/17 200/20 201/11 201/13 202/8 203/7
grayer [1) 230/11 headboard [15) 84/25 85/2 85/5 85/10 207/16 208/3 209/8 211/4 213/15 21 4/4
great [4] 7/2 155/11155/18 203113 85/12 85/18 85/20 86/2 86/3 86/6178/6 220/13 222/13 222/15 222/16 222/25
greater (1] 157/18 178/8 178/12 178/14 179/24 223/1225/7230/6 230119 230/1 9
Green[1) 65/7 health[4) 207/23211/7211/8211/11 232/14
Groffy [2) 41/8 61/2 hearsay [1) 187/13 I've [20] 25/16 25/20 27111 70/6106/9
grommets (1) 195/15 heart [1] 155/25 114/9124/21124/22 125/8125/13
ground (5) 132/25139/17 140/2 184/19 heat [4) 70/20 70/22 191 /19192/2 125/17 143/23 209/14 210/18 211/13
194/24 height (1) 185/13 211/16 211/17 212/13 217/12 217/1 4
group (4] 31/13 31/23 32/18 33/8 held (1 ] 9/15 ID (3) 54/17 55/8 55/25
growing (1] 6/22 Here's [1 J 131 /15 Idaho [1 J 125/15
Guang [1] 194/11 hereby [1) 235/6 idea [2] 43/14 213/5
guard (3) 80/2 81 /3 111 /13 herein [7) 5/23 23/1 123/17 166/4 identifiable [2] 208/9 224/15
guessing [1) 161/13 172/24 181/10 207/7 identification (27) 12/15 12/19 27/5
guidance (1) 167/17 high (6) 6/1 O 73/5 156/13 167/13 167/20 68/21 84/11 95/11 96/15 96/17 98/24
gum [1] 228/11 167/21 208/21 209/16 209/25 210/1 210/2
gun (5) 79/23 162/8 162/20 176/23 higher [2] 208/12 212/4 210/5 210/6 210/12 210/17 211/22
176/24 hinged [1] 138/5 214/5 215/1215/14217/11 231/23
guns (4) 163/2 176/24 176/25 179/3 Hispanic (2) 73/18 73/19 231/23 232/3 232/1 1
gunshot [8) 148/22 156/13 156/14 hit [4] 158/15 164/2 203/11 226/16 identifications [4] 208n 208/11 210/8
156/18156/23 157/2 157/9 162/5 hits [1) 133/3 210/19
.,,,1a"""
uv...,s._.r~31L...,:.;10:::!./.::;
23~ 10::.:.;12:::..4.:....:..:17'""'/2=-------1 hm (2) 77/22 96/11 identified [8) 56/21129/16131/23
H hold !51 12120 3118 31111 165120 181125 183113 18312120811021 717 232119
1-------------...., holder [1] 130/25 identify [25) 23/22 27/8 38/8 44/15 46/9
hacksaw [1] 197/5 holding [2) 191/24 232/13 57/1 61/5 68/6 75/3 126/20 132/13
hadn't [1] 142/21 Holmes (3) 220/3 223/8 228/18 140/10 141/16 151/24 169/12 188/11
hair [30) 29/1 o 34/9 98/1 98/7 98/8 home (1) 166/12 190/8 198/24 215/21 216/12 216/13
98/10 98/19 135/10 135/12 135/15 Homeland [1) 211/10 222/24 224/19 224/21 224/25
137/20 141/8 149/10 149/20 151/3 homicide (5] 105/3121/7 122/10 127/25 igni (1) 57/7
15114 151/5152/1 159/2 159/11 159/13 162/16 ignition [9) 46/12 46/24 47/9 52/8 57n
159/18160/5160/7160/8160/19161/3 HON (1) 1/11 131/15131/17132/7154/15
161/6 161/10 161 /14 Honor [14) 5/5 65/3 68/14 103/21 II [1] 4/10
hairs [1) 98/1 O 123/13 143/15 143/18 144/18 152/16 IJ [1) 90/15
Halbach [30] 8/14 20/2 21/25 65/1 65/6 152/21 163/9165/21200/6206/18 IK [1] 90/15
66/3 66/8 66/2167/867/1 4 67/17 67/23 hood [15) 54/10 54/23 55/10 55/16 56/1 illustrated [1) 54/5
11n 71/16 71120 71/23 74/16 76/5 56/9 56/14 56/19 87/9 93/8 93/9 142/8 illustrates [1] 28/11
76/13 90/5 9016 94/13 96/3 97/9 101 /4 142/11 142/12 142/24 illustrative [1] 186/6
101/24 119/5 198/4 220/1 231/8 hope [1] 144/14 im [1) 41/9
Halbach's [25] 41 /2 41 /17 42/6 42/8 Hospital (1 J 65/7 image [2) 130/20 134/3
43/2 43/9 51124 53/25 54/10 55/10 hot [1] 183/12 imaging (1) 41/9
56/15 60/25 6717 72/1 78/4 108/4 hour-and-a-half (1) 194/6 immediate [3) 185/5 199/20 202/21
128/13 129/17 130/16 132/7 133/23 hours [1] 196/17 impact (6) 110/19 11'5/21 137/3 138/10
134/7 135/19 163/15 205/13 house (3) 9116 28/21 28/22 139/22 147/9
137/23 138/9139/191 40/7 141/1 141/2 jurors [43] 27/17 28/16 34/3 37/2 38/4
I intern [1] 167/12 38/23 44/16 45/145/1246/9 47/15 48/7
impacted [5] 138/25 139/3 139/16 internal [1 J 164/12 48/15 48/24 49/7 50111 52/16 55/18
139/19 139/24 internship [4] 167/7 167/14 167/23 57/1 57/16 58/4 58/16 59/20 61/20 62/4
impacts [2] 133/3 138/23 171/17 62/9 62/17 62/25 63/13 66/11 67 /1
impeach [1] 12/2 Interpretation [12] 124/20 124/23 70/18 113/3 127/3 130/6 134/15 138/3
impeachment [1) 16/15 124/25 125/5 125/8 125/25 126/13 141 /17 173/24 175/2 175/15 177/18
impending [1] 198/5 127/6127/22 145/6 147/19148/6 224/4
implements [3] 190/7 196/21 196/25 interpretations [2) 25/19 32/13 jury [18] 1/4 27/22 28/5 55/14 64/15
importance [1] 195/19 interpreting [2] 125/19 126/9 70/3 104/20 128/5 130/19 131 /14 134/9
impression [1] 202/16 interrupt [1 J 152/20 138/14 139/12 155/6 159/5 171 /4
Improper [1] 170/25 interspersed [1 J 36/14 173/21 209/24
in-court [1] 210/16 intertwined [3] 188/19 189/23 204/11 Justice r31 181/20 181/23 182/23
inaudible [2] 11 /13 201 /12 interviewed [1] 15/12
inch [5] 184/20 184/21 184/21 204/19 introduced [2] 128/10 233/13
K
204/19 investigate [1] 122/16 Karen [2] 167/16 168/12
inches [1] 62/12 investigation [6) 98/18 105/22 146n Katrina [4] 209/20 211 /2 211/9 211/20
incident [1] 154/9 162/15 181/20 182/9 KAYLA [17] 3/3 5/19 5/22 6/2 6/5 11 /8
incisor [1 J 224/23 investigations [2] 19/3 122/15 12/18 15/10 22/7 22/12 168/3 168/8
incisors [1] 222/17 investigator [7] 10/22 19/2 190/15 168/14 168/16 168/24 169/22 170/15
including [2] 94/12 173/1 O 190/24 193/11 197/8 198/25 Kayla's [2] 169/16 170/2
inconclusive [7] 88/16 88/18 88/23 89/1 invisible [1 J 120/17 keep [3] 26/1 26/5 201/3
89/3 116/4 116/11 involvement [2] 42/13 208/10 keeps [2] 39/5 54/18
incorrect [1] 165/14 irons [2] 95/14 97/15 Ken [1] 5/7
indeed [2] 133/17 141 /7 Irregardless [2] 158/7 158/8 KENNETH [1] 1/14
independently [1] 103n issue [2] 119/19 141/14 kept [3) 38/10 39/23 40/2
indi [1] 57/25 issues [2] 24/13 194/3 key [29) 56/22 57/2 57/3 57/4 57/6
indicate [14] 40/10 84/11 88/1 90/17 item [61 J 39/12 39/13 42/22 44/19 45/2 57/10 57/14 57/17 57/19 57/22 57/22
106/17 137/6 139/21 139/23 151/1 45/13 45/22 46/2 46/7 46/10 46/21 48/3 57/23 58/1 58/7 58/10 58/19 58/25 59/4
151/4 153/13 160/25165/16 212/3 48/17 48/25 54116 54117 55/4 55n 93/20 93/23 94/1 94/3 94/13 94/17
indicates [4) 135/14 136/4 136/7 137/13 55125 59/15 60/6 6on 61113 61/19 94/19 94/22 112/18 112/19 142/4
indication [9] 57/25 99/12 127/10 62/20 63/17 68/19 69/1 69/2 69/12 kick [1] 116/13
127/14127/18157/11157/12159/18 69/16 75/6 7611 76/14 79/5 79/12 82/10 kills[1] 115/2
20619 83/13 86/24 88/7 93/18 96/13 103/8 kits [1 J 26/12
indications [1] 157/4 104/21105/10105/11 109/10 109/15 kitty [1 J 179/17
indicative [5] 139n 140/4 151 /3 156/15 109/20 109/23 109/23 112/14 113/12 kitty-corner [1] 179/17
159/17 115/22 117/19 118/13 184/12 187/21 knife [1] 148/12
indicator[1] 161n 190/17 197/9 200/23 knives [4) 102/4 102/5 102/9 102/15
indirect [3] 151/8 151/10 151/14 items [32] 38/15 38/19 39/15 39/16 known (4] 35/2179/1095/25 215/25
individuals (12) 24/1 26n 26/9 31113 40/10 49/10 67/3 86/18 86/22 89/22 KRATZ (18] 1/14 4/4 5n 13/13 27/6
32/18 38/9 39/1 73/23 124/11 208/8 99/24 10011 102/3 104/1 104/25 105/23 40/16 44/12 54/6 60/1 60/19 61 /6 68/5
211/23 217/13 11014110112113n 11111111122 126/18 172/19 173/6 180/10 180/24
influencing [1] 133/2 193118 195/20 196/21 198/2 200/12 203/11
inform [3] 58/4 63/13 67/1 201/3 215/9 215/13 215/17 215/18 Kruoka 111 231/8
inherit [1] 29/24 215/23
inherited [2] 28/18 29/23
L
initial [2) 224/17 229/19 J lab [58] 23/13 23/16 23117 24n 24/25
initially [5] 129/2 186/3 215/20 215/24 jack [2] 83/1 144/16 30/3 30/8 30/21 31/12 31/24 33/24 36/1
218/14 jack-of-all [1] 144/16 38/20 39/8 39/10 42/9 45/24 47/21
initials [2] 54/19 54/20 jacket [6] 40/3 40/9 90/12 90/23 91 /3 54/16 55/4 60/6 61/3 65/9 69/2 69/2
injury [3] 208/14 210/22 210/22 91/22 69/12 81 /22 84/25 92/2 96/18 98/4
inner[1] 151/16 jackets [1] 32/9 102/3 104/2 104/8 121/1 121/3 124/9
Innocence [2] 33/3 33/7 jail [13] 173/23 173125 174/3 174/8 124/22 125/15 125/22 129/17 142/18
inquiry (1] 176/3 174/9 174/12 175/24 176110 176/18 143/22 144/4 144/7 146/14 153/23
inside [15) 9/917/4 37/5 37/8 49/16 176/22 177/12 177/14 177/20 154/2 161/21194/4194/6 194/10
49/17 95/21 96/23 137/18 149/14 January (4) 9/18 167/6 168/1 168/2 194/17 195/7 195/21 198/2 198/7 198/8
154/16156n 151122 230111 230112 Jason [1] 184/1 label (1 J 54/16
instance (16] 39/13 43/15 78/13 79/9 jaw (3) 223/13 223/16 226/12 labeled [2] 101/10 220/2
83/13 87/20 89/9 98/20 100/4 117/7 jeans (10] 90/13 90/17 90/2191/391/20 laboratories (1] 37/5
118/17 118/20 119/11 206/13 213/1 114/8 11 4/10 119/23 120/3 120/20 laboratory [31] 23/11 25/11 26/17 30/13
216/8 Jeff [1 J 215/2 30/17 30/24 31/8 31/10 31/14 31/15
instances [2] 74/8 105/12 Jennifer [3] 2/3 235/4 235/19 31/15 32/4 32/7 32/2133/1638/25 39/5
instantaneously [1] 113/1 O JEROME [1 ] 1/11 39/17 40/25 41/4 42/5 42/7 43/12 60/6
institution [2] 166/23 167/3 Jim [3) 220/3 223/8 228/18 72/22 73/7 114/18 123/25 124/16
instrumentation [1] 114/23 job [2] 12211 144/2 128/21 142/23
instruments [4) 26/11 114/25 127/15 JODI [4] 4/3 172/19 172/23 173/3 labs (3) 26/8 36/4 73/25
147/12 John [3] 194/1 O 194/17 195/7 lack [1] 153/12
insulated [1] 227/15 join [1 J 233/20 ladies (3) 5/2 77/9 234/1
intended (1] 172/7 Jost [3] 184/1 184/11 194/19 landscape (2] 185/14 185/25
interest [3) 183/15 183/24 184/9 journals (1] 26/16 large (19] 47/6 61/24 62/1193n108/25
interested [3) 29/15 29/22 75/10 judged [1] 171/4 108/25 114/4 118/3 139/23 155/11
interesting [1) 188/25 June (1] 146/16 155/11 155/13 158/10 163/23 187/4
interior [10) 43/4 87/4 87/12 128/23 junkyard [1) 183/1 1 194/21 194/23 202/23 204/7
looks (4] 114/5197/1227/25229/13 229115 231/15 231/21 232/5232/12
L losing [2) 7/14 17/19 meant [1) 30/23
larger (5) 70/24 138/7 157/18 202/23 lost[1) 219/8 measure [2] 117/18 140/17
233/15 lot [22) 26/13 29/18 36/10 38/7 38/11 measured [1) 140/18
largest [2) 104/7 106/7 50/15 70/20 91 /12 103/1 103/1 104/23 measurements [2) 62/12 140/14
laser [4] 27/25 35/1 129/20 177/25 104/25 109/5 109/8 110/3 110/8 113/9 mechanically (1] 195/6
lasted [1) 175/23 117/15 155/9 164/4 164/7 220/9 medical [8] 38/6 65/16 65/18 124/5
latch [9] 54/1 o 54/23 55/1 O 55/16 56/1 lots [3] 91/13117/20 117/20 146/13 211/6 213/10 214/6
56/9 56/15 56/19 87/9 loud [1] 13/3 meeting [2] 32/16 172/13
late [2] 19/19 20/16 love [4] 14/6 220/9 220/10 220/11 meetings [5) 25/23 26/4 26/6 26/1 O
law [18) 1/20 1/22 32/22 32/23 33/4 low [11 116/10 26/12
33/9 37/25 38/16 38/19 65/8 92/1104/3 lower [9] 218/8 221 /9 221 /23 222/19 member (3} 211/4 213/12 214/4
104/14 107/17 126/8 181 /25 208/3 222/20 223/13 223/15 223/15 228/23 members [3) 5/12 78/7 92/1
208/4 lucky [1) 7/23 memory [1] 195/9
layout (1] 32/6 lunge [2] 187/5187/10 mentioned [9] 78/23 118/10 118/20
leader [1] 24/8 lvina r21 19/12 184/19 120/25121/7 204/13 210/24 211/1
leaking [1) 164/17 213/10
/earned [1 ) 147112 M mesial [1] 226/1
learning [1 ] 213/19 ma'am [1] 35/8 met [2] 170/14 171/9
leary (1) 231/24 machine [1) 235/10 metal (10] 49/2 52/12 64/18 64/19 191/5
leave [9] 37/14 110/5 110/6 110/10 Madison {12] 23/11 23/13 24/25 30/4 192/25 193/8 195/15 195/16 206/11
110/23111/24 132/6135/7161/4 3017 31 /8 33/5 104/2 123/25 124/22 method (1] 36/8
leaves (7) 53/2 162/5 190/1 190/2 190/3 128/21 207/16 microphone [4) 13/18 24/18 173/8 199/5
191/5193/17 magnitude [1 J 103/2 middle [8] 131/24167/12 167/15 167/17
leaving (2) 131 /20 137/13 Maine (3] 182/2 182/3 182/4 205/24 230/16 230/18 230/20
lectures [2] 25/14 126/1 maintain (1) 219/14 mike [1) 7/17
left-hand (1] 187 /22 maintained [1] 73/23 mimmick {1] 30/19
leg (4) 95/14 97/15 114/7 120/20 male [3] 53/1 53/8 53/11 mind (2) 232/5 232/6
length [9) 150/3 160/19 160/24 161 /5 malpractice [1) 208/13 minded [1 ) 168116
161/8161/14184/2119513195/12 mandible [1 J 223/15 minor {1] 146/13
less [2] 146/23 218/25 MANITOWOC [7] 1/1 173/23 174/2 minute (4] 19/4 77/9 123/3 186/4
letters [1] 50/17 183/6 183/25 208/22 235/2 minutes [7) 77/10 147/21 170/1 175/22
level (5) 28/24 106/22 116/10 154/1 manner [1] 127/18 175/23176/1181/2
213/22 mark [5] 1/20 5/9 208/13 209/17 210/21 Mishicot (4) 6/10 6/10 167/12 167/13
lever [1 J 54/9 marked (28] 4113 12/15 12/19 27/5 27/7 misidentify (1) 216/11
license [5] 81/19 81 /21 82/3 11217 44/14 54/7 56/25 75/1 95/8 96/10 114/9 miss [1] 20/4
112/9 126/19 129/15 130/15 131 /8 131 /23 misspoke [1] 206/2
lie (1) 19/14 132/12 134/1136/9 138/2 140/9 141/15 mistaken [1} 216/9
light [3] 118/6 119/25 135/25 185/2 190/16 199/8 203/7 223/1 mix [1] 94/12
limitation [2) 109/3 111/22 marker (6) 50/20 52/21 53/4 53/6 70/11 mixture [4) 95/22 96/2 96/25 113/12
limitations [2] 107/5 108/19 111 /18 mixtures (2) 109/25 113/14
limited [2] 82119 95/4 markers [22] 36/15 50/13 50/14 50/16 model [1] 28/11
limits [2) 106/24 107 /19 50/18 51/20 52/19 52/24 55/21 55/21 moistened [2] 44/8 47/17
line (2) 112/3 230/16 56/10 66/12 67/15 70/6 7017 7019 70/24 molar (7) 218/9 222/14 222/19 222/21
lingual [3) 225/23 227/11 229/20 71/2 71/5 72/5 72/16111117 224/22 226/22 228/23
literature [5) 26/2 26/5 112/23 115/24 markings [1 I 196/8 molded [1 J 159/5
116/3 Marquette [2] 207/19 209/9 molding [4] 101 /11 134/1O 134/11 159/4
litigation [1) 208/15 mass [2] 38/9 208/10 molecular (11 25/21
little [32] 7115 7/17 13/19 17/22 18/1 Master's [4) 166/18 167/9 171 /15 mom [5] 6/13 10/19 10/20 15/15 166/12
24/18 43/21 45/23 66/10 66/13 89/18 171118 moment (1 OJ 13/9 44/1 1 126/17 128112
107/22 108/10 117/22 120/4 134/13 Masters [1] 166/25 186/13 196/1 197/14 199/4 209/22
156/21 158/16 170/4 188/1 188/21 mat [1) 150/13 223/3
198/23 209/4 209/1 1215/6218/17 match [11) 74/21 79/1 O 89/24 90/8 moments [1) 27/16
218/24 221 /23 221 /24 230/11 230/21 95/24 97/5 217/19 217/22 218/3 218/16 Monday (3] 42/11 128/18 167/24
231/24 231/4 month [2] 7/9 8/5
live [1) 176/9 matched [8] 74/16 103/1 1 119/4 219/21 months [2) 22/4 174/14
lived (1) 176/12 227/25 228/3 229/23 232/21 morning [4) 5/2 5/5 6/5 167/17
living [3] 166/11 181 /18 207/15 matches (1] 81/8 Mortuary [1) 211/15
loaded [2) 141 /4 141/9 matching [7] 77/20 78/11217/16217/18 mother [1] 29/25
locate [2] 56/24 63/18 21 7/23 218/21 219/11 Motion [1) 171/6
located [11] 61/21 61/23 63/1 149/20 material [13) 23/22 23/23 43/13 45/15 motor (2] 183/16 199/16
149/24173/22 178/25 179/2 183/4 4 7/19 105/5 115/10 117/15 184/19 mound [2) 187/6 187/8
189/11 202/13 189/24 195/8 197/19 204/11 mouth (51 60/16 220/8 226/2 226/3
location [11 ] 50/19 50/23 50/24 51/7 materials [7] 28/23 34/8 34/16 42/16 228/19
51 /12 51/15 51/16 51/1 8 151/2 151/18 42/24 91 /15 115/19 movement[5] 127/1 2 136/4 136/7 137/8
152/6 matter [12) 72/22 163/25 184/3 184/22 137/1 4
locations [5] 36120 55/21 74/17 74/19 187/14 189/20 190/4 193/24 193/25 Mr [2) 11/14 40/16
131/2 195/18 235/7 235/13 Mr. (49) 11/22 13/13 15/7 18/25 27/6
long [1 6] 15/14 23/12 24/24 25/10 62/12 mean [30] 12/1 31 /19 45/24 46/17 44/12 51/5 51/16 54/6 56/23 60/1 60/19
124/15 161 /11 169/25 174/11 174/12 46/17 73/20 73/21 87/5 87/6 116/22 61/6 65/4 68/5 68/14 68/18 68/22 77/13
175/21181/22182/4196/14 201/8 118/7 118/12 130/11 132/21 138/19 11117112/18113/1711 7/5123/24
207/17 139/13 161/15 164/1 164/2 205/14 126/18 128/17 129/20 134/14 141/13
longer [1] 143/24 209/25 224/18 224/19 224/21 225/13 143/21 152/4153/19163/12173/17
nightstand (3] 177/8 179/4 17911 O observations [3] 138/3 154/4 160/21
M nine (1) 79/19 observe (6) 99/24 129/7 130/2 134/6
Mr .... {15] 174/17 174/20 175/4175/13 Ninety [1] 26/21 135/18136/19
176/4 176/6 176/13 176/16 176/16 Ninety-two [1) 26/21 observed [20) 129/5 130/18 131/10
176/22 177/10 181 /8 182/19 195/25 Ninth (1] 6/12 132/4 132/6 132/16 133/9 136/25
199/4 Nitron {1] 143/3 137/16 137/18 138/15 140/23 141 /1
Mr. Avery [12] 51 /5 51 /16 173/17 nobody [1) 163/4 147/25 148n 154/16 163/13 192118
174/17174/20 175/4175/13176/13 nonbloodied [1) 134/19 199/23 200/3
176/16 176/16176/22 177/10 nonbloody [1] 129/13 observing [2] 80/10 134/15
Mr. Avery's [2] 176/4 176/6 none [5) 90/2 101/4 101/6 103/16 obtain [4] 79/21 89/23 94/3 98/1
Mr. Fallon [3) 11 /22 15/7 18/25 206/20 obtained [3] 51/22 66/7 231/8
Mr. Fassbender (1] 195/25 nonhuman [2] 88/13 215/5 obvious [4] 42/22 43/5 87/19 87/24
Mr. Fremgen {8] 65/4 68/14 68/18 68/22 nonstain [1 J 137/12 obviously [1 OJ 70119 78/21 79/7 82/22
77 /13 111 /7 112/18 113/17 nonstained (2] 130/13 136/6 105/3 116/4 121/8 144/12 155/9 201/22
Mr. Gahn [1) 117/5 Norm (1] 5/8 occasion [5) 128/22 155/2 168/2 174/4
Mr. Kratz [9) 13/13 27/6 44/12 54/6 60/1 normal [6] 7/5 7/518/2 170/17 201/6 174/21
60/19 61 /6 68/5 126/18 216/25 occasions (2) 174/19 175/12
Mr. Stahlke [9) 123/24 128/17 129/20 normally [5] 17/8 65/22 170/20 216/25 occlusal [3] 225/25 227/22 229/20
134/14141/13143/21 152/4153/19 228/11 occupation [1] 23/9
163/12 NORMAN [1] 1118 occur (2] 174/24 195/6
Mr. Sturdivant [2] 182/19 199/4 North [2] 213/4 213/8 occurred [2) 127/9 168/7
Mr. Tom [1) 181/8 nose [1) 222/17 occurrence [2) 193/8 201 /6
Mr. Wiegert [1] 56/23 note [4] 114/13154/3186/21187120 occurs (2) 7412 155/8
Ms (21 J 23/9 24/17 34/24 44/11 44/11 noted [2] 84/18 190/10 October [6] 7/8 10/17 173/20 17 4115
59/5 77/17 104/1 136/10 168/15 168/15 notes {13) 40/1 82/3 84/3 84/5 84/10 175/8 175/12
173/7173/9173/19174/7174/19 175/7 103/8 111/15 113/25 114/2 114/2 114/4 October 31 (6] 7/810/17 173/20 174/15
175/19 176/2 176/21 180/11 114/13 235/9 175/8 175/12
much[14) 14/795/7106/20111/3113/5 notice [1) 7110 odometer [3) 141 /20 141 /23 142/1
113/5 117/13 118/7 120/10 147/19 noticed [5] 119/24151/9189/19190/3 odontology [3] 213/22 214/9 214/10
155/24 182/13 226/18 228/7 190/9 offer [1] 165/22
multiple [2] 144/25 153/9 November [15) 8/18 8/20 42/10 42/14 office [4] 167/17 168/8 168/14 220/3
multiply [1] 72/18 128/18 134/5 141/25142/17 142/19 officer {6] 19/9 19/12 39/3 184/1 190/23
multitude [2) 144/6 144/13 182/21 192/18 208/19 214/23 220/2 203/3
murder [1] 21 /25 223/8 officers [16] 10/8 11 /9 12/8 12/11 13/6
myself [7] 25/4 63/16 8614 121/12 November 10 [1] 220/2 14/3 14/12 14/16 15/11 15/22 19/10
168/12 184/10 194/18 November 11 [1) 223/8 19/19 20/15 20/22 22/12 65/9
November 7 [4] 42/10 42/14 128/18 offices [2] 32/25 32/25
N 142/17 Official (3] 2/4 235/4 235/19
naked [1] 120/18 November 8 (2) 142/19 192/18 offspring (1] 30/2
name (22) 6/1 6/1 9/12 21/1 23/4 23/4 November 9 [2) 208/19 214/23 old [1] 6/5
49/13 123/20 123/20 166/7 166/7 168/3 nucleated [5] 34/5 34/10 34/22 65/21 one [129) 8/21 10/22 12/112/2 17/18
173/2 173/2181/13 181/13 191/25 79/5 19/2 19/2 22/9 28/1 35/9 35/22 41 /9
207/10 207/10 207/11214/10220/2 number [39] 39/1 O 39/11 39/14 40/17 44/7 44/11 44/13 46/3 50/4 51 /7 51 /20
Namely [1] 66/23 44/12 45/23 45/25 54/16 60/6 68/7 52/18 68/8 68/9 70/22 72/15 72/15
Narcotics [2] 181 /21 182/8 72/17 74/16 78/9 79/17 82/3 95/12 73/15 73/15 73/16 73/18 73/25 7414
national[3) 211/4211/5213/10 96/15 96/17 102/3 104/7 115/6 115/7 74/4 74/4 7417 7417 74/23 79/19 84/1
natural [2] 185/14 185/25 171 /20 171 /23 188/4 188/7 208/5 84/18 88/25 89/9 92/6 95/23 96/25
naturally [2] 110/7 11 0/11 208/12 211/17 213/14 215/3 215/16 100/17 100/18 100/18 100/19 100/24
nature [3] 138/17 138/20 201 /8 217/12 218/22 219/25 222/6 222/24 100/25 104/5 106/5 106/8 109/24
NDMS[2) 211/5211/13 225/13 225/14 111 /18 114/7 117/5 11 7/23 118/1
near [6] 139/4 184/13 190/7 192/18 numbered [1) 46/3 120/19 122/22 123/7 127/21 127/21
197/24 230/17 numbering [1 J 222/11 129/10 129/21 137/3 138/5 138/18
nearing [1] 197/25 numbers [13} 50/16 50/2151/251/7 141/13 145/16 152/7 165/9165/22
necessarily [5] 105/1 2 109/10 156/25 51/10 52/17 70/8 72/14 72/19 73/5 168/21 169/5172/2 174/20 175/17
157/23161/5 84112 186n 22211 o 175/17 179/21 180115 180/15 183/9
necessary [2) 32/17 49/20 nu merica I [1] 39/11 183/18 183/24 184120 184/21 184/21
neck [2] 163/21 164/6 numerous r41 43/5 51/14 84/5 138/10 184/21 185/4 186/8 187/25 190/22
need (16) 28/1 28/4 28/21 28/23 40n 194/20 195/12 198/24 199/4 201/2
41/11 43/20 49/22 49/23 62/15 103/8 0 203/11 204/19 204119 206/24 210/21
179/15 199/10 208/9 225/4 225/5 o'clock [1] 197/24 213/23 214/2 215/3 216/3 216/6 217/4
needed [1) 220/23 oath (1] 207/5 217/21217/22218/15 218/22 218/25
needs (2) 28/25 39/20 ob 121 14/19 102/8 219/1 221/10 223/11 224/9 225/11
negative [11) 43/21 80/17 80/18 83/16 object [18] 11 /11 14/19 129/12 132/5 225/12 227/3 227/19 229/7 231/3
84/9 85/17 86/8 90/22 91 /19 114/8 132/24 132/25 134/18 135/24 136/3 231/15 231/15 231/25 233/13
120/20 136/S 137/11 138/23 139/8 140/4 140/6 one's [2] 160/1 16012
negligence [1 J 208/14 143/8 143/10 153/14 One-fifty [2] 68/8 68/9
neither [1] 84/18 objection [10] 12/516/16144/18 144/19 One-ten [1] 123/7
never [2) 156/7 160/25 165/24 170/25 200/10 200/11 232/25 ones [6] 70/8 151/3151/23 210/20
new [8] 24/10 24/14 24/14 26/9 26/10 233/18 218/5 218/7
33/12 33/12 33/13 objection's [2] 171/3 187/17 online [3) 24/15 25/9 25/21
news (4) 2011 20/9 20/10 21 /19 objections [1] 7712 open [7] 18/1 9 63/2187/20130/1
nice (1] 8/7 objects [1 J 23/19 130/21 142/3 180/6
NICK (4) 3/13 123/14 123116 123/21 observation [2] 102/8 137/1 5 opened {5) 54/21 57/12 142/8 142/11
passenger [16] 48/5 48/12 48/19 53/14 picking {1) 221/12
0 53/24 59/16 129/6 129/8 129/9 130/21 picks (4) 220/8 220/11 220/16 228/20
opened ... [1) 142/24 132/18 133/9 133/10 134/11 152/3 picture [15] 42/5 82/22 82/25 85/3
opening [4] 59/23 60/15 64/19 140/18 152/15 136/16 180/20 198/15 201/14 202/23
opens (2) 138/6 138/8 passenger's (1] 130/20 203/8 204/2 229/2 229/12 233/14
operates [1] 211 /6 passive [7] 128/7 132/19 132/20 132/21 233/15
Operational [1] 211115 133/5147/4 148/15 piece {22) 39/7 42/19 63/4 64/19 68/15
opinion (43] 53/21 54/2 54/3 56/12 past (4] 125/14125/17 210/12 217/11 69/6 69/21 105/18 110/22 143/8 184/2
56/17 58/22 59/2 59/3 67 /16 67 /21 patients [1] 207 /23 184/19 184/22 186/3 189/4194/21
67/22 67 /25 76/11 76/16 133/11 133/16 pattern [25] 124/23 124/25 125/5 195/16 216/7 216/9 217/22 219/8 225/1
140/24141/6147/22 147/24149/19 125/12 126/2 126/6 126/25 127/22 pieces [9) 84/14 105/7 204/7 215/16
149/19 149/22 149/25 149/25 150/5 130/17 132/6 134/23 135/12 136/2 216/5 217/20 218/23 219/1 219/4
150/7 154/23 159/22 184/2 197/20 136/2 136/8 137/5 137/6 139/2 139/20 pile [12] 184/4 185/11 185/18 185/24
199/15 208/25 209/1 209/2 210/11 148/11 150/16 155/7 156/8 158/13 189/20 190/5 190/7 195/4 195/22 196/7
210/15 231/2 231/5 231/10 231/11 160/22 202125 204/4
232/2 232/14 patterning (3] 125/8 148/22 156/17 piled [1] 185/14
opportun ity (1 1] 12/3 79/20 83/8 91/24 patterns [30] 124/20 126/1 O 127/5 pinned [4] 14/414/1716/221/11
9317 93/20 94/1 96/20 99/4 100/11 128/2 133/9 133/13 134/6 135/19 pipets [1) 114/22
101/8 136/19 137/16137/17 138/12 139/10 pit [46] 20/7 20/13 21 /4 21 /18 68/16
opposed [4] 107/17148/23157/3 139/17 139/22 140/22 141/1 147/14 74/15 185/17 185/20 188/24 189/2
164/12 148/6 152/13 156/11 157/2 157/6 189/3 189/13 189/17 189/18 189/18
oral [3] 207/23 212/19 220/9 157/10 157/11 159/10 163/12 164/20 189/21 192/18 194/7 194/9 194/13
order [8] 28/13 28/14 35/24 49/2 1 72/17 164/21 164/23 194/16 196/22 198/18 198/20 198/20
107/18 13513 164/16 PCR [3) 36/9 38/5 50/14 198/22 199/18 199/21 201 /25 202/4
organ ization [1) 213/23 PCR-based [1] 36/9 202/7 202/9 202/13 202/21 202/23
organizations [6] 213/9 213/11 213/14 Pediatric [1] 220/10 203/20 203/21 203/23 204/16 205/4
213/20 213/24 214/3 Pepsi (8] 59/17 59/21 60/4 60/8 60/10 205/24 206/3 206/5 231 /6 233/16
orient [1] 179/22 66/24 6717 68/2 233/17
originated (1) 151/19 percent [7] 29/24 29/25 30/1 114/18 place [6] 84/21 116/8 175/4 179/19
our [41] 8/20 11/23 24/11 27/24 30/17 228/12 232/5 232/6 231 /12 231 /12
31 /16 32/7 32/8 32/8 32/12 32/15 34/6 perfect[1] 83/21 placed [14] 141/10 147/22 148/5 149/11
36/19 39/17 39/19 39/24 40/2 40/2 perfectly [3) 65/25 138/24 231 /18 149/20 150/21 175/3 175/16 185/25
40/24 41/9 41/9 42/4 42/6 54/14 54/14 perform [1 OJ 32/21 32/23 38/16 43/7 195/10 195/13 195/20 198/15 198/20
54/15 54/17 60/5 83/20 106/19 106/24 43/24 49/5 57/14 63/7 64/2 64/21 placement [2] 127/8 127/8
109/1110/5114/19114/20114/22 performed [4] 25/3 40/14 47/9 161120 places [3] 87/19 183/23 184/9
114/22 128/20 143/8 180/25 233/9 performing [1 J 30/4 placing [2] 175/9 189/1 O
outer [1] 206/2 perhaps (8) 35114 116/16 152/7 183/15 plain [1] 121/1 8
outgoing [1 J 8/8 188/24 189/9 191/6 193/16 PLAINTIFF [1] 1/4
outside [5] 30/18 152118 220/7 226115 periapical [4] 221/1 221/3 221/7 221/18 plastic [6) 63/2 63/4 130/25 134/1 O
228/19 period [4] 7110 8/5 124/19 167/5 159/4 216/7
overall [1] 140/12 permanent [1] 222/21 plate [5] 81 /19 81 /21 82/1 82/2 135/4
overrul e [1] 12/4 person's [6] 34/23 35/9 35/13 36/18 plates [2] 112/7 112/9
Overruled [1] 144/21 49/24 161/6 Platteville [2] 166/24 167/4
overseeing [2] 24/11 144/5 Personal [1] 210/22 play [1 J 110/1 4
oxidized r21 191/4 193/6 personnel [1) 194/10 played [1] 17/3
p perspective (1] 170/17 playing [1] 17/5
phone [4] 175/3 175/21 194/1 208/18 plenty [2] 109/18 109119
P-e-r-i-a-p-i-c-a-1[1] 221 /5 phonetic [3] 138/24 184/24 204/6 plugs [1] 39/25
p.m[4] 123/10181/41 81/5234/4 photo [9] 179/21 188/7 189/4 192/17 plus [2] 121 /3 232/20
PAGE [2] 3/2 4/2 199/11 202/8 202/12 202/20 233/16 pointed [1) 184/18
pair [4] 90/12 95/14 120/3 200/23 photograph [49] 36/12 41124 41 /25 42/4 pointer [5] 27/25 35/1 129/20 177125
panel [10] 49/2 52/12 136/11137/18 44/24 46/25 47/2 47/4 47/5 4819 48/10 188/9
141/1 151 /17 154/16 157/22 158/12 48/23 57/4 61116 61/16 62/2 62/23 pointing [3] 35/6 178/1 178/1 O
158/15 63/23 63/24 64/11 64/1 8 68/6 68/10 police [6] 19/10 19/12 32/25 39/3 182/2
panorex [8] 220/5 220/6 228/17 228/19 68/11 68/20 84/23 128/11 129/16 182/5
229/2 230/1 230/4 231 /13 129/18 129/23 130/16 131/11 131/24 policy [2] 72/22 73/7
pants [4) 113/18 114/1 115/5 115/8 132/13 132/15 132/17 141 /1 7 142/14 pooled [ 1) 152/9
pap [13] 65/6 65/8 65/15 65/16 65/19 187/22 188/1 188/4 197118 203/9 poor [1] 110/18
65/24 65/25 66/2 66/7 66/20 67/8 72/1 203/15 225/10 225/11227/5227/6 population (13] 29/19 72/13 72/16 72/21
76/6 227/20 72/24 73/8 73/12 73/16 73/17 73/18
Pard [1] 149/1 photographed [1 J 41/12 73/19 7413 74/8
parents [1 J 29/24 photographer [1] 61 /3 por [1] 224/20
partial [13] 70/13 70/15 71/12 73/4 74/5 photographs [20] 40117 40/22 40/23 portion [25] 16/15 44/6 45/5 4 7/22 5512
88/17 88/21 88/23 88/24 89/5 89/7 41/141/1041/13 41/15 60/20 60/24 57/22 62/14 62/14 69/8 69/18 98/10
89/14 89/20 99/24 99/25 158/24 159/3 185/1 186/5 98/12 102/18 159/4 160/3 161/9 161/12
partially [2) 191 /3 191 /3 186/7 200/17 225/7 229/19 232/18 171 /18 192/23 206/11 217/4 217/5
particularly [1] 216/16 phrase [2] 191 /9 217/15 225/25 227/16 227/17
parts [7] 11/10 13/24 15/19 20/12 21/5 physical [5] 23/18 32/6 116/5 224/10 portions [2] 107112 224/20
21/8 21/18 224/25 portrayal (1] 186/18
party [5] 8/23 9/10 9/14 9/21 18/14 physically [1] 173/21 portrayed [1] 193/20
pass [5] 30/1 163/7 170/1 O 212/20 pick [6] 198/1 198/6 205/11 221 /9 position [2] 124/1 151 /2
215/8 221/10 221/14 positioned [3] 187/7 221/9 221/23
passed [1] 31/5 picked [2] 195/14 196/4 positions [1] 182/1
223/12 quicker [1] 210/8
p processed [3] 60/18 75/21 194/16 quickly [1] 198/6
positive [22] 43/19 44/3 44/5 47/12 processing [8] 42/18 43/3 59/6 88/8 quite [6] 1211 38n 66/16 66/18 109/16
63/10 64/5 80/15 88/14 88/15 100/15 125/7 194/4 194/13 201 /5 216/10
100/19 100/20 101 /17 102/13 103/9 produce [2] 29/1 68/19
106/4106/11 106/18 210/1 231/23 produced [1] 199/8
R
232/2 232/10 professiona I [2] 213/9 214/1 8 rack [1) 176/24
positively(1) 151/23 proficiency (7) 25/15 30/14 30/17 30/18 racks [1) 176/23
possibility [2] 86/15 147/16 30/19 30/23 31/5 radiographically [1] 216/15
possible [6] 35/12 51/7 83/24 92/8 97/5 profile [121) 23/23 34/21 34/21 35/18 raise [5] 5/20 22/24 123/15 166/2
98/14 35/19 36/16 36/19 36/24 37/11 37/12 172/21
possibly [4] 78/15 80/14 80/22 117/11 37/16 45/21 47/23 49/9 49/24 50/1 50/3 raised[1) 119/24
post [2) 33/9 33/19 5112 51/2152/1452/16 52/24 53/12 rake [9] 190/10 190/11 190/20 191 /1
post-conviction [2] 33/9 33/19 55/9 55/15 56/2 56/3 56/9 58/3 58/9 191/2 191/4 191n 191/16 192/8
postmort [1] 229/10 58/11 58/18 58/20 66/2 6617 66/18 Rambler [1 ] 93/8
postmortem [8] 225/4 229/14 229/16 66120 66124 67/3 67/5 67/12 67/13 random [1] 102/17
230/2 230/5 230/21 230/22 231 /13 69/20 70/13 70/15 71/7 71/13 71/24 range (2) 51/10 104/20
pot(1] 219/7 7219 72/10 72/13 72/18 72/20 72/23 rapidly [1] 196/19
potential [151 34/11 78/11 99/21 104/15 73/1 73/3 73/4 73/12 74/6 75/22 76/1 rare [5] 72/12 72/15 72/20 73/11 74/9
105/4 105/5 115/7 121 /15 205/19 76/4 76/5 76/17 77/24 78/3 78/4 78/24 rarer [2] 72/23 73/2
215/16 215/17 215/20 215/22 218/23 79/8 79/22 80/23 80/24 81/6 81/8 81/9 rate [6) 157/23 158/1 158/6 158/17
219/8 81 /25 82/12 83/12 86/2 86/12 86/13 158/20 158/22
potentially [1] 119/12 86/21 88/16 88/20 88/21 88/22 88/23 RAV [53) 41 /2 41 /17 42/6 42/8 43/2
PowerPoint [8) 27/18 34/2 50/6 223/22 88/24 89n 89/15 89120 89/23 89/25 44/21 49/3 51/24 53/25 54/10 55/11
224/1 225/9 227/10 227/11 90/1 90/3 90/3 92/16 93/21 94/7 98/1 56/15 57/5 57/7 59/6 59/7 59/11 60/5
practical [1] 228/12 99/18 100/22 101/3 101/19 102/22 63/3 63/17 64/23 67/19 71 /9 71118 79/9
practice [2] 145/5 207/21 103/15 107/6 107/13 107/15 108/8 8712 87/9 89/24 105/2 118/5 128/13
precisely [1] 143/21 110/15 110/20 111 /4 111 /23 112/5 129/6 129/8 130/16 131/16 134/4
preliminary [14) 43/7 43/11 43/12 43/24 112/19112/25117/11117/17118/18 136/11 137/24 138/8 140/13 140/20
44/6 45/9 45/20 4 7/10 63/7 64/2 94/24 119/14 140/24141/12 147/23149/3149/15
95/6 99/13 106/18 profiles (17) 23/25 24/2 31/2 31/3 35/21 149/21 150/2 150/21 151/1153/23
premier (1) 214/2 51/23 53/18 66/14 66/19 66/21 67/22 159/1 165/13
prepare [1] 77/23 71/8 71/10 71/15 77/2178/9107124 ray [23) 5/1 O 22016 22017 22017 220/13
prepared [4] 27/18 198/25 223122 235/8 profiling [1] 89/5 220116 22111 22113 221n 22118 221112
presence [8] 23/21 42/15 83/14 86/25 program [3] 24/12 25/11 25/13 222/2 228/17 228/19 229/10 229/14
105/6 116/4 163/3 196/20 project [3] 33/3 33/7 184/25 229/18 229/21 229/23 230/22 230/23
present[10] 79/5 109/6 111/20 154/14 projected [6) 128/7 147/4 147/10 164/18 231112 231113
157/10 157/19168/10 168/191 86/24 186/13 197/14 Ray's [1] 82/18
227/3 projectile [21 156/1 O 162/5 RAYMOND [1] 1/22
presentation [ 1) 223/22 properties [1) 27122 rays [14) 216/14 216/15 219/25 220/1
presented [1] 225/8 property [1) 156/5 220/12 220/18 220/21220/24221/19
preserve [3] 205/20 219/13 226/12 prosecution [2] 5/13 32/22 221/20 221/21 221/22 231/7 231/14
preserved [2] 198/18 224/1 O Prosecutor [3] 1/14 1/16 1/18 re [1] 31/17
pressure [2) 156/1 219/6 Prosecutors [1) 5/7 re-evaluated [1) 31/17
presumptive [7] 43/16 43/25 84/8 85/17 protect [3] 205/20 219/13 226/13 reach [1) 187/8
88/15 91 /15 145/17 protected [1] 227 /15 react [1] 80/14
pretty [3) 7125 146/2 146/4 protecting [1] 143/11 reaction [3) 43/19 43/22 44/3
prevent [1] 153/17 proteins [1] 29/1 reading [41 13/11 21/19142/1 142/6
previous (2] 64/7 202/17 protocols [1) 32112 ready [1] 5/13
previously [ 13] 54/7 56/21 56/25 65/4 proved [1] 64/5 reagents [1] 75/16
74125 98/22 114/9 130/15 131 /23 psychology [1) 166/18 rear (32] 52/12 59/10 64/17 64/22 66/22
132/12 134/1 163/1 229/18 pull [3) 13/18 24/18 32/9 6716 67/19 71/9 71117 108/5 132117
primarily [3] 82/4 8216 118/5 pulled [1] 140/2 133/10 133/22 134/3 134/11 136/11
primary (21 105/13 105/13 pulp (3) 230/17 230/20 231/17 136/14 136/18 137/19 137/20 138/5
prior [11) 7116 125/15142/22 154/1 purchase [1] 30118 138/8 140/13 140/23 141/4141/9
176/9 176117 176/22 181125 182/9 purchased [1 J 31 /4 141/10 151/17 15212152/15152/15
184/8 194/12 purpose [2) 45/19 72/11 163/1 4
priority [1) 121 /8 purposes (3) 3416 99/17 228/12 reason [5] 86/1 O 115/2 121 /19 153/23
prison [1] 33/20 pursue [1) 11 /24 154/10
private [2) 30/18 30/21 pursuit (1) 167/8 reasonable [7] 53/21 56/12 58/22 67/16
pro (1) 88/21 pushes (1] 226/11 76/11 133/12 140/24
prob (1] 7/6 I outline r21 195/1 219/11 receipt [1] 200/8
probative [2] 122/4 122/6 receive [5] 38/15 54/1 1 69/1 166/20
Q 166/25
probing [1) 154/5
problematic [1] 216/16 qualifications [3] 27/10 77/18 215n received [26) 16/20 40/1 O 54/13 54/19
procedure [61 35/25 78/1 78/5 101 /14 qualified [2] 26/22 212/9 54/22 57/17 57/18 69/4 75/7 77/5 104/3
106/19 107/10 qualifies [1] 25/6 104/8 106/8 106/9 166/1 177/4 200/13
procedures (5) 24/15 26/9 31/16 32/1 quality (3) 24/12 32/8 112/5 208/18 209/5 209/8 215/15 223/7 228/3
7917 quantitate [1] 106/20 228/18 233/2 233/23
proceed [2] 5/17 11 /24 quantitation (1] 107/9 receiving (1] 143/9
proceedings (2) 2/2 235/13 quarter [1] 181 /2 Recess [3] 77111123/9181/4
process (11) 31/2141/1142/1550115 quarters (1] 210/20 recognition [1) 210/4
52/25 60/10 75/8 102/8 124/12 196/14 ques (1 J 148/18 recognize [16) 10/24 12/22 6012 81 /21
report [6] 12/8 31 /3 84/11 89/1 89/2 S-t-a-c-h-o-w-s-k-i (1] 173/4
R 174/9 S-t-a-h-1-k-e [1 J 123/21
recognize ... (12] 95/9 96/13 128/13 reported [3] 2/3 15/18 235/6 S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n-t [1) 181 /15
129/18 134/2 185/5 190/17 192/14 Reporter (4] 2/411/14 235/5 235/19 saliva (4] 34/9 34/14 78/17 103/10
196/2 199/9 214/13 223/3 reports (1] 122/5 salvage [3] 41 /5 183/2 183/4
recollection [4] 11/13 11/18 15/4 197/7 representation [11 202/15 sample (51] 24/5 35/19 35/20 35/20
reconvene [11 123/4 representatives (1] 26/11 36/20 36/21 37/8 38/10 44/3 48/4 49/21
Reconvened (4] 5/1 77/12123/10 181/5 reputation (1] 171/10 49/22 49/23 50/25 51 /4 52/19 52/22
record (11] 6/1 23/4 123/20 166/7 173/2 request [7] 33/15 104/24 105/22 105/25 53/10 55/23 56/11 58/19 61 /12 62/5
181 /13 190/25 207/10 225/3 232/23 162/17 162/23 233/21 63/25 64/25 70/16 70/19 74/6 82/8
233/12 requested (2] 162/19 162/24 86/20 88/11 92/11 92/15 94/4 95/1 95/5
records [2] 220/4 220/5 requesting (1] 142/1 96/1 98/8 99/17 100/2 100/22 107/7
recovered (161 46/7 48/18 49/3 57/3 requests (2] 33/1 122/8 107/14 108/24 109/5 109/7 109/19
59/22 59/25 60/4 61/12 62/20 63/16 require (1] 199/2 110/16 118/13 119/12 121 /15
76/19 11 8/5 208/22 215/23 224/17 requirements (1] 32/16 sampled (31 44/6 69/8 95/21
231/6 res[1] 111/19 samples (31] 23/20 24/1 24/2 25/14
recovery (1] 223/14 research [1] 26/14 30/9 30/20 34119 35/14 37/6 46/4 52/23
recross [6] 3/12 3/1 7 117/1 117/3 165/8 residence [ 11 176/6 54/4 67/23 9012 92/8 95/25 97/21 98/2
165/10 resolved [1] 24/13 98/7 98/19 100/25 101/1 103/4 103114
Recross-Examination [4] 3/12 3/17 resort (11 210/7 103/15 104/14 106/2 106/21 106/22
117/3 165/10 respond (1] 124/14 107/23 109/2
rectangular (1] 206/6 response [9] 10/25 12/24 17/10 2118 sand (11 185/14
red [2] 187/21 202/1 144/9 144/12 153/21210/25211/15 sat (11 18/17
reddish [9] 45/14 46/11 46/23 48118 responses [2] 211/3 211/21 sauce [1 J 135/1
49/1 62/19 63/15 64/16 109/8 responsibilities [2] 23/15 124/8 scared [7] 168/17 168/25 169/4 169/9
reddish/brown (9] 45/14 46/11 46/23 responsibility (1] 24/16 169/18 170/4 170/20
48/18 49/1 62/19 63/15 64/16 109/8 responsible [6] 23/18 24/9 24/11 24/14 scene (23] 23/20 34/20 35/15 37/15
redirect (14] 3/6 3/11 3/16 3/22 22/8 124/11 124/13 37/16 37/22 99120 116/1 116/21 125/6
22/10 103/20 103/24 118/1 121 /12 restate [2] 15/6 15/9 146/7 156/9 192/17 194/17 199/23
163/10 172/10 172/11 206/19 restructured (1] 211/9 201/7 201/11201/13201/24 202/2
refer [9] 29/7 36/15 43/16 70/12 72/25 resu It [5] 33/18 95/6 155/7 156/18 157/9 203/4 203/5 205/15
114/2 185/20 193/1 205/3 results [8] 56/7 7017 7018 71/1 71/4 72/4 scenes (9] 124/12 125/13 125/17
reference [4] 35/20 36/21 49/23 49/24 72/6 109/2 125/20 146/1 146/2 155/3 164/10 194/5
references [1] 116/2 retain [1] 44/4 scheduled [1 J 174/12
referred [12] 10/3 16/1 4 36/3 39/1 46/5 retained [1] 44/10 schematic [1 J 29/5
49/18 53/5 79/2 83/5 93/8 108/11 retrieved [1] 65/8 school [13] 617 619 6/10 10/6 22/14 33/4
111 /19 return [1] 30/1 167/12 167/13 167/15 167/17 167/20
referring [4] 11 /19 15/2 15/3 118/4 returns [1] 162/8 167/21 209/10
refers [1] 37/4 reveal [1) 168/24 schooling [1] 125/3
reflect [2] 50/21 72/14 revelations [1] 169/17 schools (3) 25/17 124/24 167/22
reflected [1] 94/10 review [8] 33/9 33/11 91/25 94/1 97/14 science (6) 25/8 124/2 124/10 144/2
reflects (1] 72/18 97/15 99/4 103/8 208/2 208/4
refresh [3) 11 /13 11 /18 15/4 reviewed (1] 98/23 Sciences [1 ) 214/2
refreshment [1] 16/14 reviewing (1) 13/14 scientific [10] 26/2 26/15 31/20 53/22
regardless [1] 87/14 ridge (1] 191/23 56/13 58/23 67/17 76/12 133/12 140/25
region [1] 50/22 ridge-like [1] 191/23 scientist (1] 23/10
regions (6] 29/6 29/20 36/11 36/13 rifle [2] 111/8 157/16 scientists [2) 29/16 70/12
36/15 36/17 right-hand (1] 178/18 scissors (1) 114/20
regular (1] 162/23 ring (1) 212/12 scoop [1] 185/22
regularly (2) 162/20 174/16 rises [1] 185/13 scooped [3] 185/23 195/8 206/6
reinforcing (1 ] 219/12 rived [1) 203/24 screen (21] 35/3 42/1 45/2 47/6 48/1 1
rejected (2] 27/2 126/14 role (1] 211/21 61 /17 63/25 81 /13 81115 81 /16 82/16
related [5] 6/16 6/18 25/18 126/2 162/4 Ron [2] 41/8 61/2 82/23 128/9 141 /18 184/24 185/4
relates (1] 214/19 room [3] 9/9 17/4 177/15 186/15 193/20 225/12 225/1 7 230/1
relation [1] 154/15 root (23] 98/9 98/12 216/2 217/2 218/2 screens [1] 195/10
relationship (4] 154/13 173/11 173/14 218/8 221/11221/15221/17 221/24 screwdriver [7] 190/11 197/4 197/13
173/16 223/16 224/11 224/16 224/17 226/20 197/15 205/23 206/4 206/7
release (2] 54/9 140/6 226/21 228/1 228/2 228/6 228/7 230/22 seal (1 ] 54/19
relieved (1] 170/5 231/5 231/17 search [2] 183/1 183/10
remain (3] 174/4 174/16 207/4 roots [4] 218/11221/13 224/21 230/7 seat [36] 12/21 45/4 48/5 48/12 48/19
remaining [2] 198/11 224/12 rough (3] 110/21 110/22 226/7 52/12 100/18 130/1 130/7 130/21
remains (12] 39/19 68116 68/17 69/21 roughly [3] 182/17 182/18 196/17 130/24 130/24 134/12 141/10 152/3
70/1 70/4 74/14 209/1 215/4 219/2 round (1] 95/22 152/15 188/16 188/17 199/16 199/19
223/7 223/9 routine [1] 208/7 199/19 199/23 200/1 201 /17 202/3
remark [1] 187/17 routinely [1] 105/17 202/6 202/10 202/13 202/15 202/18
remember (18] 9/23 11 /7 12/10 13/15 RPR [2] 2/3 235/19 202/20 202/24 203/21 203/22 204/3
19/4 20/19 21/15 21/16 21/18 22/2 rules (1] 111/1 204/10
22/16 34/17113/20 174/9175/7175/9 run [1) 25/3 seated [7] 5/25 23/3 123/19 166/6 173/1
175/20 176/21 running [3] 25/14 145/11 224/7 181/12 207/9
remotely (1] 153/24 rusted r11 191 /5 seating (1] 141/11
removed [2] 44/9 153/16
render (3] 154/23 208/25 210/11 s second [ 13) 99/1 141 /24 142/20 165/22
175/17 201 /8 218/8 222/20 225/24
repeat [3] 93/24 148/20 150/18 S-i-m-1-e-y (1 J 207/12 226/23 227 /1 228/23 230/14
sometimes (10] 17/15 17/24 88/24
s showing [3) 12/18 136/6 195/24
shown [2] 61/17 223/1 111 /2 159/14 172/3 172/5 172/6 210/7
secondly [2] 183/11 201/4 shows [8] 58/17 88/25 107/18 203/9 216/13
section [8] 23/17 24/9 24/11 24/13 227111 227/23 228/20 228/21 somewhat [SJ 112/23 139/5 188/24
31/15 121/4 121/5 226/25 shrug [1] 18/21 191/4 193/5
sections [1] 32/4 shrugged (2] 9/2 917 somewhere [3] 83/22 150/11 202/18
security [2] 31/25 211 /11 side [25] 45/5 50/17 50/21 132/18 son [1] 6/21
seek [1] 16/15 134/11 138/5 140/7 149/5 178/6 187/22 soot [2) 201/2 206/8
seem [4] 8/3 77/18 169/19 170/7 202/5 220/16 225/21 225/23 225/24 sort [24] 79/22 80/22 81/4 81/25 83/8
seemed [1] 18/1 226/8 226/9 226/10 226/15 227 /12 86/1 86/11 86/19 88/20 91 /1 92/14
Seems [1] 77/19 227/14 230/3 230/3 230/24 230/24 92/15 93/3 96/22 99/16 100/2 103/9
seen (13] 7/20 8/24 10/20 11/9 13/24 side-by-side [2] 230/3 230/24 116/5 118/15 133/19 135/11 155/7
14/17 15/19 15/24 15/24 27/19 83/3 sides [2} 57/22 226/1 198/8 205/18
132/1 204/15 sift [2) 195/4 198/5 sorted (1] 195/14
segment (1] 28/10 sifted [6] 195/17 196/19 197/25 198/1 O source [29] 24/4 37 /21 53/23 54/3 56/14
seized [2] 92/4 98/5 198/11 198/13 56/18 58/24 59/3 67/18 67/24 68/1
sells [1 J 34/14 sifter [1) 195/13 71/16 71/21 71/23 72/9 72/25 73/3
semen [6] 34/9 34/13 43/15 78/19 sifting [8] 194/19 195/1 195/5 195/1 0 76/13 76118 79/22 113/16 130/13 132/9
109/17 115/10 195/22 196/4 196/14 196/18 151/5151/20 153/15158/7158/8
sem inars [4) 25/23 26/5 26/6 27/11 significance [1] 161116 217/21
send [1 J 98/14 significant [2) 77/19 188/25 south [1] 178/18
sense [1) 150/8 signify [1] 225/20 Southeastern [1 J 73/17
sensitive [1] 109/1 signs (1} 193/2 southwest [1] 179/17
sensitivity [1 J 108/20 silly [1 J 200121 Southwestern [1 J 73/19
sent [2] 10213 122/22 similar [4] 53/18 158/1 158/3 158/21 spa [1] 149/6
separate [5] 15/23 80/21 84/14 218/13 SIMLEY [5) 4/10 207/3 207/6 207/12 space [1] 155/12
228/2 232/19 spade [6] 190/9 192/16 192/20 192/23
September [1] 211/8 simply [7] 11/17 55/3 57/18 83/14 86/14 193/1 206/14
September 11 (1) 21 1/8 99/14 113/13 spaghetti (4) 135/1 135/1 135/5 149/6
series (3) 28/12 50/16 134/12 single [2) 113/16 164/10 spatter [6] 145/6 146/1 146121 156/14
serves [1] 195/9 sink [4] 100/9 100/18 100/20 101 /1 161/17 162/7
servicemen (1] 38110 site [1] 190/21 spatter's [1] 146/4
Services [3] 211/7 211/8 211/12 sites [1] 183/15 speak [4] 11 /15 168/9 168/11 173/7
set(4] 160/22 177/15 186/19 196/18 sitting (1] 8/20 speaker [1] 149/4
sets [2) 32/19 97/19 situated [1] 177/21 speaking (2] 91/24 197/16
setting (3) 24/14 29/14 38/1 six [9) 62/12 72/24 184/3 185/20 185/22 special [13] 1114 1/16 1/18 5/7 19/2
setup [1] 176/4 185/23 198/12 206/6 215/15 181/14181/19184/10 208/18 214/25
seven (4] 70/9 74/19 89/10 174/14 six-foot [2] 185/22 206/6 220/3 223/8 228/18
several [5] 22/4 51/19 100/16 113/15 size [8] 50/22 51/1 51/1 55/22 62/10 specialists [1} 39/2
193/25 114/3 163/24 221 /8 specialized [1) 124/24
sexual (1) 122/11 sizes [3] 51/3 51114 51/19 specialty [3] 143/22 143/23 145/2
shade [1] 230/11 skee [1) 184/24 specks [ 1) 119/25
shape (1] 29/11 skeletonized (1] 210/3 speculation [1 J 154/5
share [2] 176/13 199/5 skills (2] 125/11 144/25 spell (8) 6/1 23/4 123/20 166/7 173/2
shared [1) 176/17 skin [5] 34/13 34/14 109/14 11 2/17 181/13 207/10 221/4
shaving [1] 164/3 112/17 spend [1] 182/13
shed (4) 110/7 110/111 12/3 187/21 skull [41 190/4 190/4 205/3 205/5 sperm [1 J 34/14
shedder[4] 110/18110/18116/14 slender !1] 140119 spindles [1) 85/20
116/14 slide [20] 27/24 34/7 5017 50/8 50/12 split [ 1) 230/1
sheds [1] 110/8 52/1 52/2 52/5 55/1 3 56/6 58/5 58/13 spoke [4] 19/18 20/15 21/3 78/11
shell [6] 92/13 92/17 92/19 92/20 93/4 64/8 66/5 67/2 67/10 68/4 69/23 75/25 spoken [2] 65/4 68/14
119/11 76/8 spot[1] 84/1
Shepherd [2) 186/22 187/4 Slow [1) 208/3 spots (2) 183/12 183/19
Shepherd-type [1) 187/4 small (1 4) 28/10 62114 75/9 95/2 109/21 spread [2) 155/11 156/21
Sheriffs (1] 68/18 114/7120/19155/12157/15161/11 SS [1] 235/1
SHERRY (5) 3/8 22/23 22/25 23/5 178/8 204/15 204/20 218/25 stab [2] 148/23 164/1 O
129/16 smallen [2] 20416 20417 stabbing [2] 152/8 156/19
shift [1 J 59/5 smaller (3) 28/12 71/2 71/3 stabbing-type (1] 156/19
shoot [1 J 220/16 smear [13] 65/6 65/8 65/15 65/16 65/19 STACHOWSKI [14) 4/3 172/20 172/23
shop [1 J 169/9 65/25 65/25 66/3 66/7 66/21 67/8 7212 173/3173/7173/9173/19174/7174/19
short [1] 154125 76/6 175/7 175/19 176/2176/2 1180/11
shorthand (1 j 235/1 O smooth [4) 110/24 111/2 111/5 227/14 STAHLKE [1 3] 3/13 123/14 123/16
shot[ 1J 140/12 so-called [2] 183/12 183/23 123/21 123/24 128/17 129/20 134/14
shoulders [3] 9/2 9/7 18/21 soaked [1] 120/3 141/13 143/21 152/4153/19 163/12
shovel [5] 190/9 192/23 192/25 195/9 Society [2] 31/12 213/21 stain [86) 43/20 44/4 44/9 45/6 45/7
206/14 socket [2] 226/21 226/23 45/17 46/11 46/23 47/8 4 7/19 48/6
show [31] 45/1 50/6 52/2 61 /19 61 /23 soda [1] 59/24 48/18 49/1 52/761121 61/23 61 /24 62/8
62/25 63/1 0 68/10 7214 95/8 96/9 solely [2] 16/13 171 /3 62/1 0 62/11 62/13 62/19 63/1 5 64/5
129/14 130/14130/17131/8131/22 soluble [1] 115/11 64/16 91 /16 102/16 109/8 109/11
132111 133125 136/9 138/1 140/9 177/3 solution [1) 114/19 109/18 114/5 114/7 117/7 117/14
179/15 179/21 190/23 193/2 195/25 someone's [4) 112/13 116/14 116/19 117/15 118/3 118/6 118/8 118/8 120/5
197/8 202/22 203/7 223/2 155/2 120/19 120/21 124/20 124/23 124/25
showed [4] 15/18 71 /7 221 /24 229/18 sometime [3] 20/16 172/3 183/22 125/5 125/7 126/2 126/6 126/10 127/4
T v weight (2] 7/14 17/19
welcome [2] 200/19 206/23
tube [1] 75/15 vacuum (2] 98/5 98/20 whatsoever [1] 159/9
Tuesday (1] 182/20 validations (1] 32/7 wheel [1] 61/25
turn [2] 57/12 142/3 valuable [1) 127/21 Whereas [2) 221/11 226/14
turned (3) 57/10 195/21 198/21 value (2] 143/12 205/19 Wherein (1] 234/4
TV [2] 21/19 176/20 van [10] 188/17 198/16 201/17 202/3 wherever [1] 35/14
twenty (2) 23/14 79119 202/6 202/6 202/10 202/18 202/20 white [3) 34/12 119/25 120/5
twenty-nine (1) 79/19 204/10 whiter [1] 230/7
Twenty-three (1) 23/14 vanity [3] 100/9 100/17 100/19 whitish [1] 114/5
twice (2) 175/14 211/18 variables (5) 110/13 116/7 116/13 who've (1) 217/13
twig [2] 190/1 193/16 155/10 164/14 whoever (1) 111 /24
two [54] 9/22 10/23 10/24 19/1 24/3 variation [1] 29/18 whole (5) 36/10 138/7 216/3 221/11
26/21 32/5 36/22 37/18 50/25 73/16 variety [1) 183/17 221/14
74/24 84/11 84/14 84/15 84/16 88/25 various [1) 85/16 wide (2) 185/21 195/11
93/22 93/22 97/19 117/17 117/19 13112 varying (1] 220/21 wider [1] 233/15
152/7 154/17 168/24 175/16 176/24 vehicle (28] 42/19 45/5 46/1 46/6 46/12 width [2] 149/16 195/2
177/22 182/15 185/1 185/13 185/16 57/13 61 /13 62/20 87/20 88/2 128/14 Wiegert [8) 10/8 10/23 13/7 56/23
186/5 195/2 195/11 196/17 201/3 128/16 128/19 128/23 129/17 130/18 190115190/24193/12 198/25
211/22 212/12 212/19 213/2 217/19 135/20 136/17 138/7 141 /20 142/2 Wild [3] 59/16 59/21 68/2
218/2 218/4 218/5 218/7 218/11 221/10 142/16 142/21 142/24 152/14 154/9 window [2) 178/9 179/25
222/16 223/1 1 224/11 226/1 228/2 183/16 199/16 windows [1] 177/22
two-car [1) 185/16 vehicles [1) 41/11 wipes [1] 16011
two-day [1] 212/19 velocity [1] 156114 wiping [2] 115/19159/25
type [44] 7/23 2618 36/2 36/5 38/12 venue [ 1] 26/7 wire [2] 197/19 202/25
38/20 42/24 43/7 70/10 79/5 91/10 ver (1) 214/12 wiring (5] 188/12 188/14 197/5 197/21
102/16 104/23 105/19 106/15 115/13 veracity (1) 171 /1 201 /18
115/15 128/23 129/7 130/2 130/8 verbal (3) 10125 12/24 17/10 WISCONSIN (28) 1/11/311151/171/19
130/12 131 /1 131 /18 132/5 132/8 132/8 verified [1] 215/25 5/3 23/10 23111 33/4 65/7 74/12 123/25
132/23135/18 139/20 143/2 148/10 version [1) 179/15 124/15 125/16 126/9 145/8 146/14
156/16156/19157/12157/14159/10 versus (1) 117/7 166/24 167/4 181/19 181/22 207/16
162/17 162/25187/4 191/14 194/21 vessel [1] 230/17 213/1 213/2 214/4 214/6 235/1 235/6
207/21 224/23 victim [4] 23/2134/1934/20 127/9 Wisconsin-Platteville (2) 166/24 167/4
types [23) 26/10 34/7 34/15 66/16 66/17 victim's [1] 127/7 wisdom (3) 222/14 227/2 228/21
7216 72/15 74/1 85/15 88/25 91/13 video [1] 17/3 without [2] 160/2 216/14
122/14 127/3 127/14 12 7/19 128/1 view [2) 162/10 199/3 witness (30) 5/19 5/23 11 /24 12/2 12/2
147/2 147/6 147/12 147/14 148/2 viewable (1) 208/9 13/2 13/4 16/13 22/21 23/1 123/3
209/13 211/3 views [1) 229/20 123/12 123/17 144/22 152/20 152/21
typical [1] 135/9 visible [6] 54/25 57/20 60/13 82/4 153/6 163/7 166/4 170/10 172/17
typically (4) 156/20 157/18 161/3 201/5 117/14 117/14 172/24 173/3 181/6 181110 181/14
tvnina f41 36/3 36/6 36/8 36/9 visual [15) 42/20 54/24 57/19 57/25 200/9 206/25 20717 232/17
75/12 83/18 85/13 99/12 102/8 102/16 witnesses [4) 3/2 4/2 233/7 233/9
u 102/16117/18 12914160/21 210/5 woman [2] 65/17 140/19
ultra [1] 232/14 visual-type [1) 102/16 wood (7] 110/22 191 /23 192/10 192/12
ultra-conservative (1] 232/14 visually [7] 75/11 80/10 94/20 118/23- 192121 216/5 216/9
Um-hm [2] 77/22 96/11 118/24 120/12 208/9 wooden [2] 84/25 8512
un {1) 200/22 vitae [31 27/9126/22 214/16 words 151 50/24 106/25 134/23 174/24
unable (4) 8114 82/12 88/19 119/7
uncle (2) 169/5 169/13
w 175/24
work (12] 23/1 O 23117 2517 33/24 70/21
uncommon (1] 162/14 wad [1) 204/7 108/25 117/1 5 156/9 182/4 209/19
undergo (1) 30/13 wadded [1] 201118 213/13 232/1
undergraduate [2] 146/10 209/6 walk [3] 17/24 177/23 177/23 workday [1) 24/21
underneath (7] 153/14 177/22 179/3 walked [5] 18/23 184/9 184/17 187/6 worked [5] 167/16 167/18 167/24 182/2
179/24 211 /6 211110 222/17 189/17 182/11
uniform [5] 157/23157/25158/17 wall [13] 176/23 176/24 178/6 178/8 working {4] 95/4 171/17 191/18 224/6
158/19 160/23 178/10 178/11 178/12 178/18 178/19 workshops [2] 25/17 125/9
unique (1] 134/21 178/20 178/23 179/2 179/24 world (5) 73/7 209/19 211 /1 211 /19
unit [6) 24/8 104/11 104/12 106/3 106/8 warrant [2] 18311 183/10 213/25
106/10 wash [7] 75/17 115/12 115/13 115/14 world's [1] 72/24
United (2} 213/4 214/3 115/14 115/16 119/12 worst (1] 217/14
units [1] 28/13 washed [4) 75/15 99/14 11 515 11 9/2 wound [19) 133/19 148/16 148/22
universal (1] 222/11 washing [2) 75/19 75/23 148/23 150/16 150/22 151 /6 156/13
University [5] 33/4 166/24 167/4 207/19 washings 11] 115/8 156/14 156/18 156/19 156/23 157/2
209/10 waste [1 J 95/5 157/9 162/5 162/12 163/24 164/10
Unless (2) 92/10 123/3 water [3] 44/8 4 7/18 115/11 164/18
Unlikely (1] 161/3 wavy(1] 137/17 wounding [1] 156/16
unusual [3] 70/15 193/8 216/8 weak 111 118/7 wounds [3] 151 /2 152/8 153/10
up-to-date [2] 26/1 26/5 weapon [4] 157/12 157/14 162/18 163/5 written [3) 15/17 122/5 212/19
upper [2) 222/13 223/12 weapons (3] 127/14 14812 148/8 written/oral [1] 212/19
upset [3) 7/15 17/22 17/24 wear [1) 143/5 wrongfully (1) 33/22
usable [2] 98/6 110/15 wearing [3] 112/13 142/25 143/2 wrote [1 J 19/1
usual [1 J 234/1 week (2) 7/6 16125
weeks [1) 19122
x
x-rays [14] 216/14 216/15 219/25 220/1
220/12 220118 220/21 220/24 221/19
221/20 221/21 221/22 231/7 231/14
XY 131 53/8 53/1 0 66115
y
Y-K-K [1] 196/12
yard [3] 41 /5 183/2 183/4
year [5] 25/10 65/5 146/23 173/10
173/17
year-long [1 J 25/1 O
years [17) 23/14 30/6 30/12 31 /14 31 /18
124/17 124/18 125/14 125/15 125/17
126/6 146/15 146/17 146/20 182/6
182/15 211/17
yellow [1] 39/8
Yep [2] 17919 199/14
vourselves 111 234/3
z
Zhang [1] 194/11
zipper [3] 195/16 196/3 196/9
zoom [2] 134/13 138/13
zoomed [2] 132/21 229/4
BRANCH 3
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3
4
PLAINTIFF , JURY TRIAL
5 TRIAL DAY 4
vs . Case No. 06 CF 88
6
BRENDAN R. DASSEY ,
7
DEFENDANT .
8
10 DATE : APRIL 19, 2007
11 BEFORE : HON . JEROME L . FOX

Circuit Court Judge
12
APPEARANCES:
13
KENNETH R. KRATZ
On behalf of the State of Wisconsin .
15
THOMAS J . FALLON
17
NORMAN A. GAHN
19
MARK R. FREMGEN
20 Attorney at Law
21
22 AttoFney at Law
23
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
24 De fendant
Appeared in person.
25
1
COPY
1 * * * * * * * *
4 Official Co u rt Reporter
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1 I N D E X
2 PAGE
3 TRIAL STIPULATIONS 6-11
4 WITNESSES
5
RODNEY PEVYTOE
6
7
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 38 - 49
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9 DR. LESLIE EISENBERG
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TRIAL STIPULATION 98-99
13
14 ANTHONY O'NEILL
16 Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 126-174
17 Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 174 - 180
18 Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 181-1 82
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TRIAL STIPULATIONS 183- 185
20
21 MARK WIEGERT
22 Direct Exami nation by ATTORNEY FALLON 186- 198
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1 CONT ID I N D E X
3 EXH IBITS MARKE D MOVED ADMITTED
4 183-195 95 95
5 196 8
6 197 10
7 198 11
8 199 95 95
9 200 100
10 201 125 126
11 202 & 203 182 183
12 204 178 181 181
13 205 1 85
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2 THE COURT : This is t he case of State of
3 Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey. I t's 06 CF 88 .
5 ATTORNEY FALLON : Morning, Your Honor .
6 May it please the Court , the State continues in
7 its appearance by Special Prosecutors Ken Kratz,
8 Tom Fallon, and Norm Gahn.
10 appears with Attorney Ray Edelstein and Brendan
11 Dassey.
12 THE COURT : Morning, Counsel, morning
13 jurors. Uh, members of the jury, if you recall
14 at the beginning of this case, I gave you some
15 preliminary instructions. One of them concerned
16 evidence . It was evidence defined , and then it
17 said, evidence is, a nd it -- it gave you three
18 diffe rent kinds of evidence .
19 Uh, the third of that tripartite was
20 something , uh, called a stipulation. Third ,
21 evidence is any facts to which the lawyers have
22 agreed or stipulated .
23 Uh, there also is going to be an
24 instruction later on that, uh , will tell you that
25 the district attorney or , in this case , the
5
THE COURT: It will be marked as Exhibit ...
( E x h i b i t No. 197 marked for identification.)
THE CLERK: One ninety-seven.
THE COURT: T h e third stipulation is a s
follows:
Number one, On October 31, 2005, Scott

Tadych was the b o y f r i e n d of B a r b Janda. Knew the
defendant, Brendan Dassey, Steve Avery, and other
family members living at the Avery salvage

property.
Number two. That if called to testify,
Scott Tadych would t e s t i f y that between 7 : 3 0 and
7:45 p . m . on October 31, 2005, he was at the
Janda, s l a s h , Dassey p r o p e r t y where he dropped

off Barb Janda.
Tadych would t e s t i f y that he observed a
Large Sire in the b u r n area behind the detached
garage of Steven Avery.
Tadych would f u r t h e r indicate t h a t , at
t h e time, h e observed Brendan Dassey and Steven
Avecy standing next to the fire.
To the State, is that your stipulation?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: St is, Judge.
THE COURT: The d e f e n s e , is this your
stipulation?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge.
THE COURT: It will be marked as Exhibit. ..
(Exhibit No, 198 marked for identification.)

THE CLERK: One n i n e t y - e i g h t .
THE COURT: Uh, l a d i e s and gentlemen, there
will be -- or -- additional stipulations, b u t not at

this time,
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you.

THE COURT: You may proceed.
ATTORNEY FALLON: S t a t e would call
M r . Rod Pevytoe to the stand.
RODNEY PEVYTOE,
c a l l e d a s a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d as follows:

THE CLERK: Please be seated.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE CLERK: Please state your name and
spell your last name f o r the record.
THE WITNESS: My name is Rodney Pevytoe,
P-e-v-y-t-o-e.
DIRECT EXAMfNATION
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q What do you do for a L i v i n g ?

A I'm a s p e c i a l agent w i t h the Wisconsin Department of
Justice in the Division of C r i m i n a l Investigation. I
work in t h e Arson Bureau of that unit.
How l o n g have you b e e n i n t h e employ o f the
Department of J u s t i c e , D i v i s i o n o f C r i m i n a l
Investigation?
I've b e e n with, uh, t h a t agency f o r 27 years.

Twenty-five y e a r s have been i n the A r s o n Bureau.
P r i o r to j o i n i n g the Department o f Justice, d i d
you have a n y o t h e r law enforcement e x p e r i e n c e ?
Yes. I w a s a reserve deputy sheriff i n Marathon
County. I t T s n e a r Wausau, W i s c o n s i n .
What kinds of c a s e s does t h e Arson Bureau i n v o l v e
themselves w i t h ?
Well, g e n e r a l l y s p e a k i n g , we investigate f i r e s and
explosions, uh, that occur here in the state of
Wisconsin. We'll investigate t h e cause. If it's

determined to be of accidental o r i g i n , we do, u h ,
some r e p o r t i n g , and t h e n , basically, end our

involvement.
If it's determined that there's some

c r i m i n a l activity, w e , u h , work with local l a w
e n f o r c e m e n t a n d further t h e c r i m i n a l
investigation into that matter.

A11 right. Urn, Agent, would you pull that
microphone a little bit closer to you?
Sure.
Urn, how do you, t y p i c a l l y , get involved in a
case?
Typically, an -- an Arson Bureau agent receives a
request, and it's generally e i t h e r f r o m a law

enforcement agency o r sometimes from a fire
department, stating that they need some expertise in
determining the cause of a f i r e or an explosion, t h e n

we go from there.
All right. And on approximately h o w many f i r e
investigations have you been involved in in your
tenure with the Arson Bureau?

Uh, unfortunately, I don't have a n exact number. Uh,
I could easily say it's between eight hundred and a

thousand. It's probably more than that but, it seems
l i k e a whole l o t .
And, urn, of those investigations, have you e v e r
involved yourself in an investigation in which
t h e r e was a fatality associated w i t h the, uh,
fire?
Yes, sadly, many times I do get involved i n a f a t a l
f i r e investigation.
All right. And approximately how many f a t a l f i r e
investigations have you involved y o u r s e l f in
through t h e y e a r s ?
Again, I c a n v t give you a n exact number, but, urn, a n

estimate would be in -- in excess of a hundred. Some
of those would involve multiple fatalities, f o u r ,
five people dying at a time.
Q All r i g h t . Urn, tell us a little bit about your

e d u c a t i o n a l and training experience if you will?
Uh, do you hold any, uh, degrees?

A Yes. I have a Bachelor's Degree in criminal j u s t i c e
from the University of Wisconsin. Uh, in addition to
that, I'm a certified police officer, certified
firefighter. I'm also a c e r t i f i e d in -- fire
investigator by t h e I n t e r n a t i o n a l A s s o c i a t i o n of
Arson I n v e s t i g a t o r s .
Urn, as p a r t of my d u t i e s within t h e
Department of Justice, I've been able to receive
some additional training from a lot of different
agencies, to include t h e N a t i o n a l F i r e Academy,
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
ExpLosives, the FBI. Uh, numerous, uh, IAAI,
which means International Association of Arson
Investigators, uh, conferences, as well as
d i f f e r e n t p r i v a t e entities who have p u t on
various types o f educational opportunities f o r

fire investigators.
Q If you could elaborate for us, what is t h e

International Association of Arson Investigators?
A The I A A T , International Association of Arson
Investigators, i s an organization of people who are
devoted to t h e f i e l d of f i r e investigation, and it's
a worldwide a s s o c i a t i o n .
Uh, we have members in t h a t association

from, uh, Europe, uh, Asia, uh, S o u t h America,
uh, the Middle East, a s well as all of N o r t h
America. There's about 7 to 8 , 0 0 0 people that
are in that association urn, at t h e present time.
Q All r i g h t . And, urn, approximately how many
certified investigators a r e t h e r e ? Do you know?

A Uh, c e r t i f i e d f i r e investigators by t h e IAAI, there's
r o u g h l y a thousand of them r i g h t now.
Q All r i g h t . And i s t h a t in the world? The
country? North America?

A That's a t h o u s a n d of them in the world.
Q In your, urn, experience, urn, have you been called

upon to instruct others in the -- in the field
o f , urn, uh, fire i n v e s t i g a t i o n ?
A Yes. I , urn, t e a c h q u i t e f r e q u e n t l y i n , urn, a lot of
d i f f e r e n t areas. Urn, I teach frequently f o r the

National F i r e Academy a s a member of t h e i r a d j u n c t
faculty. Uh, as part of t h a t , I travel throughout,
uh, most of t h e states, it seems, at one time or

a n o t h e r , as w e l l as being, urn, a guest speaker for
IAAI functions, and I teach fire-related subjects,
fire death investigation, uh, different subjects
related to our f i e l d .
Q All r i g h t . And are -- do you sit or are you
associated with any, urn, boards which are

involved in either the training or the
investigation of fire scenes?
A Uh, y e s , I am. I'm -- I'm on t h e board of d i r e c t o r s
for the International Association of Arson
Investigators. Urn, in addition to t h a t , I also, urn,

am the co-chair of the Certified Eire Investigator,
urn, Committee as part of that. And s o I ' v e worked
with, uh, o t h e r p e o p l e i n o u r f i e l d i n order t o , u h ,
gain t h e accreditation of being a C F I , a C e r t i f i e d
F i r e Investigator.
Q A11 right. Urn, as a result of your t r a i n i n g and
your e x p e r i e n c e , urn, are you capable of
r e c o g n i z i n g human r e m a i n s t h a t have been damaged
by fire?
A Yes. I've seen them many times, and, uh, over t h e
course of many years that I've been doing those
investigations have, uh, g a i n e d that skill.
Q Now, uh, M r . P e v y t o e , d i r e c t i n g your a t t e n t i o n ,
specifically, to this case, how did you become
involved?
On November 9, t h a t was a Wednesday, I was on a
d i f f e r e n t work assignment. I received a telephone
call from our Madison o f f i c e , and t h e y w e r e d i r e c t i n g
m e t o come down t o ' ~ a n i t o w o ct o a s s i s t o t h e r
investigations in the ongoing investigation into this
incident.
And when did you a r r i v e o n t h e scene?
Approximately mid-afternoon on the 9th.
Upon your arrival, what did you do?
Uh, well, the f i r s t thing we had to do is we have a

security checkpoint. So I went through t h a t . After
c l e a r i n g security, I went down to the command area,
if you w i l l , and I spoke to the t w o lead

investigators, uh, S p e c i a l Agent Fassbender and
Detective Wiegert.
At some point was y o u r a t t e n t i o n d i r e c t e d to what
has now been r e f e r r e d t o a s a b u r n pit on the
s a l v a g e yard property?
Yes. I was informed of t h a t on t h e 9th, a n d actually
observed the area, but did no investigation at that
time. M y actions on the 9th were, really, j u s t
t r y i n g to assess what was t h e r e and what needs 1
m i g h t do i n o r d e r t o f u r t h e r the investigation-
A l l right. And, um, describe the scene f o r u s on
t h a t , uh, Wednesday a f t e r n o o n when you j u s t ,

generally, l o o k e d around?
A Uh, with respect to t h e b u r n pit a r e a ?
Q Yes.
A Uh, this b u r n p i t i s k i n d of a -- a large, s a n d y
plateau, urn, a n d i n t h e r e -- there" s depression i n
there t h a t had some charred remains. It was covered

with a tarp, u h , t o p r o t e c t i t from t h e e l e m e n t s as
best as it could be done, and, urn, it had covered an
a r e a , oh, I don't know, urn, maybe two-thirds the size
of this room. It seemed l i k e the whole sandy area.
Maybe a little bit smaller than t h a t . But t h e , uh,

burn pit, or the depression, was maybe five-by-six
foot. Something o f t h a t r o u g h a p p r o x i m a t i o n .
Q Okay. A f t e r making this v i s u a l o b s e r v a t i o n , urn,
what was t h e first s t e p in your investigation?

A Uh, the f i r s t thing I d i d was the following day, uh,
t h a t was t h e l o t h , a n d what I a c t u a l l y started o u t
t h e day doing i s g o i n g over to the Sheriff's
Department in Chilton at Calumet County, and I did a
preliminary examination of some debris that had been

removed from the burn pit by other investigators
before me.
Q All right. Tell us a b o u t , uh, y o u r , urn, review

o f , u h , t h e material?
A Well, I had an opportunity to take that debris and

p u t it under some high intensity lighting so it could
be inspected, uh, well, and then, uh, piece by piece
s t a r t e d to go t h r o u g h that and i d e n t i f y the different
items that I suspected would be of evidentiary v a l u e .
Urn, and then I turned them over to the evidence
c u s t o d i a n , who was with me, uh, in order to maintain

the custody of t h o s e items.
Q Who a s s i f t e d ( p h o n e t i c ) you in this, uh --

assisted you in this examination?
A Urn, Special Agent Tom Sturdivant was with me and, uh,
Deputy, uh, Riemer, from t h e Sheriff's Department,
was the evidence custodian. He was n o t doing the
i n s p e c t i o n , but he w a s there to receive the evidence.
Q All r i g h t . A n d t e l l us, uh, what items, if any,
did you find that, urn, you thought were of some
evidentiary significance?
A Uh, during that p r o -- wh, process, I recovered, uh,
some small fragments that I believed to be consistent
w i t h bone. Uh, there was, uh, some fragments t h a t I
suspected were some dental remains, and, in addition
to that, there were two small masses o f , urn, a
charred material that, uh, upon closer examination, I
felt that it was consistent with charred muscle, urn,
like I've seen on, uh, burned fire victims. And I
recovered those items and turned t h o s e over for

evidentiary v a l u e .
Q Describe t h e -- t h e -- t h e pieces, or pieces that
you, uh, suspected t o be bone and tissue, can you
tell us a little bit more a b o u t them?

A Urn --
Q T h e i r condition and t h e i r -- how they Looked to
you?
A Sure. Uh, the t w o pieces of tissue material, urn,
they w e r e b o t h r e l a t i v e l y small. I -- I would
estimate between the size of a golf b a l l and maybe a
racket ball, j u s t i n -- i n general size. They
w e r e n ' t certainly round in shape, they were kind o f
an unusual s h a p e . B u t , uh, they were heavily charred
and blackened. Uh, you c o u l d see t h a t they had some,
uh, c u s h i o n i n g . You c o u l d -- When you squeezed them,
they had some g i v e to them, uh, and one of them had a
l e n g t h of, u h , what appeared to be bone, uh, going
through it.
Q A l l right. And, uh, t o whom did you provide t h a t
material?
A I handed i t d i r e c t l y t o , uh, Def -- Deputy Riemer, or
Riemer, excuse me.
Q All r i g h t . Urn, approximately how much time did
you and, urn, A g e n t S t u r d i v a n t spend, uh, s i f t i n g

through t h i s i n i t i a l , urn, h a r v e s t from t h e p i t ?
A I would estimate it was about h a l f the day, because
i t was close to t h e noon h o u r t h a t we ended that
preliminary examination, decided to come back to t h e
scene.
Q Uh, and when you went back to the scene, where,

specifically, uh, did you go?
A To the -- to t h e Avery p r o p e r t y . And t h e n , i n
p a r t i c u l a r , I w e n t back to the b u r n pit area.
Q All right.
A And, uh, was going t o do a reexamination of t h a t
area.
Q All right. Who, if anyone, assisted you on t h e
reexamination of the area at t h a t t i m e ?
A Uh, I had a couple d i f f e r e n t people. Urn, we
established a couple d i f f e r e n t areas t o be searched
around t h e b u r n p i t . There w e r e some, uh, evidence

technicians from the Manitowoc Police Department
t h e r e , and the grassy area that w a s around t h e b u r n
p i t , um, just to make sure that there was n o t h i n g
that c o u l d be missed i n there, w e had them search

that entire area.
Then on the -- the p i t , itself, of the

sandy mound, I had t w o additional special a g e n t s
t h a t were helping me, a depu -- or, excuse me,

Special Agent Sielehr and Special Agent Rindt,
were both Arson Bureau agents with me.
Q All r i g h t . And, urn, f o r t h e benefit o f our
r e p o r t e r t h e r e , c o u l d you s p e l l S i e L e h r ?
A I -- 1 c a n t r y . I t h i n k i t ' s S-i-e-h-e-1-e-r.
Q All right. Urn, approximately how much time d i d
you spend working on t h e p i t on that area t h a t
day?
A We s p e n t several hours, because we had s t a r t e d in the
d a y l i g h t , and I recall t h e fact t h a t , u h , I requested
some g e n e r a t o r s and some high intensity lighting to

be b r o u g h t in. Uh, once we started that process, I
didn't want to end it, so I t h i n k we went 'ti1 close
to 10:00 at night, if m y memory serves m e r i g h t .
Q Uh, and d i d you then conclude?

A Yes.
Q A l l right. Now, I ' d like t o a s k you a little bit
about y o u r observations of the -- the s o i l , t h e
sod, and the a s h that you, urn, observed while you
were processing the p i t . Urn, first, tell us

about, urn, the ash. Was there a n y t h i n g unusual
about the ash in this burn pit?
A Well, to a fire i n v e s t i g a t o r , no a s h i s unusual, but
t h e y m a y have c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s , i s probably t h e best
way t o say it. Urn, when I l o o k e d at the -- the loose
a s h that was in the bottom of the pit, and t h e r e

still was some there, as well as the -- t h e bottom
layer of t h e burn pit, formed almost -- it looked
l i k e just -- if you could imagine what blacktop

looked like, it was the soil that had bonded with
different, uh, distillance. Urn, there was an odor
and a consistency there that I had seen before, and

that was from t h e burning of t i r e s . Automobile tires
and s u c h .
Q A11 r i g h t . What -- what do you mean by

distillant?
A Well, distillance would be -- When you burn a tire,

actually, some liquids come o f f and they begin to
flow, a n d they can bond in the s o i l . Uh, d i f f e r e n t

oils of petroleums will flow. When you take a solid
and you burn it, it actually has to be converted to a

vapor, so it will go through a very temporary Liquid
stage. Sometimes that runs o f f .
Q All r i g h t . And so are you d e s c r i b i n g something
like a crust-like?
Yes. would be a very good characterization of

it.
Q In terms of, urn, your examination of the p i t ,

what else, urn, s t r u c k you o f evidentiary
significance, uh, about, uh, the material t h a t

was taken from the p i t ? And I'm now a s k i n g you
to f o c u s on nonbiological?
A Well, we saw some metal i t e m s t h e r e .
Q All right.
A In particular, to describe a couple of them, uh, the
f i r s t t h i n g t h a t drew my a t t e n t i o n , was t h e r e was a
mass o r a b a l l , u h , t h a t was about t h e s i z e of a
t i r e , so 15-inches, of heavily o x i d i z e d w i r e . And,
uh, there were a multitude of wires there. And based
on my experience, what I've seen, is these wires are
consistent w i t h what" left when you burn

steel-belted radial t i r e s . Urn, when you see -- It
shows up in this exhibit here.
(2 Right. This is, uh -- Right now w e k e depicting,

ula, Exhibit 169. Does this h e l p illustrate the
point?
A Yes, very well. Uh, you can see t h e mass of wire or
this ball of entwined wire t h e r e , uh, t h a t ' s p r e s e n t .
Q A g e n t , there i s a , urn -- There it is. Right
there. And you can probably -- it's easier --

might be easier t o -- i f you would use t h a t
screen --
A Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. Urn, right in that area is
the mass of wire. And that t y p e of w i r e that's
heavily oxidized is what you see when you burn

steel-belted r a d i a l tires. T h a t ' s what remains
there. And these's a -- a significant amount of wire
there. So we h a d a multitude 05 tires, steel-belted
radial tires, t h a t were b u r n e d , and that would be
remaining.
In addition to t h a t , 1 should a l s o point

out, that in the p i t , i t s e l f , and in the remains
of t h e a s h , t h e r e were broken pieces of wire. So
that's -- What you see t h e r e is not

representative of a l l t h e steel-belting that we
saw at t h e scene, but that is t h e m a j o r i t y of it.
Q All right. Urn, now, that mass of wire t h a t
you've identified, was there anything else, urn,
of significance about that mass of w i r e ?

A Uh, y e s . Urn, as p a r t of the scene examination, I
wanted to look at everything, and I started l o o k i n g

at this e n t w i n e d mass of w i r e . And I noticed that
inside the wire, deeply inside of it in some cases,
w e r e some white fragments that I looked at closer,
and identified t h o s e to be bone material. And they
were entwined in t h e r e to the p o i n t where I actually

had to, physically, pull a p a r t the w i r e in order t o
get it t h e r e . It wasn't j u s t on the s u r f a c e . It was
actually down entwined into the w i r e s .
Q Any, urn -- Give my a second. Ah, y e s . Now,
a l s o , urn, what is depicted in, uh, Exhibit, urn,

169, is a, urn, car s e a t , w h i c h we've, urn,
previously identified and introduced as Exhibit
174. Did you have an o p p o r t u n i t y to examine,
more closely, uh, the car seat which is depicted
in Exhibit 169, and which has now been marked as

Exhibit is 1 7 4 T
A Yes. A s you can see, it's in the c e n t e r of that, uh,
exhibit right there. It's the, urn, rusted mass as
pointed o u t r i g h t t h e r e . Urn, I don't know if it's a

car seat or from a n SUV type of vehicle, but i t 3 --
it's a v e h i c l e s e a t . I -- I i n t e r , p r e t e d it to be a
rear seat t h a t may have been removed, or an e x t r a
s e a t , uh, b u t I did have an opportunity to examine
it.
I didn't see any bone fragments entwined

in that, but that's a pretty open area. It's not
as dense as the wire, urn, b u t as I looked at it,
you c o u l d see it was heavily oxidized, it
appeared to have some charred material on it, and
it was my impression that it had been burned and

destroyed in the f i r e .
Q All right. And what is it about t h e condition of
t h e , uh, car seat that led you to c o n c l u d e that
it had been burned or exposed to fire?
A Well, there were several t h i n g s . First of all, its

location n e x t t o a burn p i t might be suggestive of
that. But when you look at, uh, the surface, one of
t h e t h i n g s that happens t o metal, frequently, that's
in a fire, is it rusts or oxidizes very q u i c k l y , and

we see t h a t t h i s s e a t is -- is oxidized evenly, f o r
the most part, o v e r all of its s u r f a c e s .
D u r i n g a f i r e , a l o t of times the
protective coatings that would be on metal a r e
burned away. If there's oil or paint or whatever
might be protecting that from the elements, as
well as t h e -- t h e process of the f i r e , is -- is,
b y its d e f i n i t i o n , of r a p i d oxidation. So w e see
metal objects in a fire of rusting very quickly.
In addition to t h a t , there" actually some little
fragments of charred remains there.
Q All r i g h t . Is t h a t why, urn, j u s t for example

purposes, people who have burn barrels, they
don't seem to stay new very l o n g ?

A That's correct. They r u s t v e r y quickly.
Q A l l right. Urn, now, before we leave this

particular -- Well, actually, it would be a good
transition. h want to go back and revisit
something t h a t we t a l k e d about j u s t a f e w m o m e n t s
ago, and that is, you, uh, t o l d us t h a t t h e r e

were remains of multiple steel-belted r a d i a l
tires.
Urn, based on your examination of the pit
area, itself, uh, can you give us a rough
approximation of how many tires may actually be
r e f l e c t e d i n t h e remains which were recovered?
A Based on my experience from l o o k i n g a t other burned
tires and different f i r e scenes, I could certainly
comfortably say it was in excess of five. Probably
more, u h , comfortably. B u t because they were so
e n t w i n e d , it was d i f f i c u l t to pull them a p a r t and

separate how many different t i r e s t h a t we had t h e r e ,
because they were a l l s o comingled t o g e t h e r .
a All r i g h t . Now, based on y o u r , urn, t r a i n i n g and

experience and research, are you familiar, urn,
with t i r e s as a potential f u e l source?

A Yes. I've a c t u a l l y burned them.
Q A l l right. Urn, t e l l u s , what type or what k i n d
of f u e l source would a tire be?

A A tire is actually a v e r y e x c e l l e n t fuel source. Uh,
those of you who have seen them burning on

television, or in real life, know that t h e y b u r n with
great intensity. Urn, I'm actually hard-pressed to
t h i n k sf a commonly available material that's in
solid form that w o u l d be a b e t t e r m a t e r i a l t o use to

accelerate a f i r e . And by accelerating, we're
talking about, by its d e f i n i t i o n to a Eire
i n v e s t i g a t o r , something that w o u l d make t h e f i r e burn
with g r e a t e r intensity, a b e t t e r f u e l , or a better,

uh, o x i d i z e r . And, uh, I -- I think i t ' s r e a l i s t i c
t o s a y t h a t t i r e s can be a form of a solid
accelerant. They b u r n w i t h great i n t e n s i t y , They
release a lot o f energy.
In fact, uh, studies have shown that o n e

pound of t i r e s releases about 15 t h o u s a n d BTUs of
e n e r g y a s it b u r n s , which is a pretty s i z a b l e
amount of energy.
And, urn, w h a t -- Give u s a n example, what is a
BTU?
It's a -- B y its d e f i n i t i o n , i t 9 s B r i t i s h Thermal
U n i t , and it's the amount of energy that's required

to h e a t one pound of water, one-degree F a h r e n h e i t .
W h a t ' s t h e w e i g h t of a n average p a s s e n g e r tire?
T w e n t y pounds.
A l l right. So o n e p a s s e n g e r t i r e would -- could
be expected to generate how many BTUs of energy,

rough1 y?
About three hundred t h o u s a n d .
A l l right. Could you p u t t h a t into context f o r
us? Urn, for instance, a n average furnace i n a
home? Anything l i k e t h a t ? Can you relate that

BTU f i g u r e in --
A I -- I can t r y . Urn, you know, your f u r n a c e size will
vary based on t h e size of the home and its
efficiency, but, uh, l i k e in my home, I have a

hundred and -- a hundred and f i f t y thousand BTU
furnace, and that's how much e n e r g y it can p u t out in

one hour, uh, in order to heat that home. And that's
probably a p r e t t y average size. So that's a b o u t
equivalent to h a l f a tire.
Q All right. Now, urn, if one is burning, urn, two,

three, f o u r , five t i r e s , what k i n d of Eire a r e --
are w e -- would we expect to see?
A Uh, well, you'd see several t h i n g s . First of all, I
t h i n k most of us know t h a t a f i r e , in many cases,
will give o f f a p r e t t y distinguishable, uh, black or

d a r k smoke from the burning of t h e tires, but the
intensity of the f i r e will be g r e a t . It will be a --
a very b r i g h t flame, usually in an orange color, and,
um, uh, y o u y l have a flame h e i g h t -- it may vary,
depending on how the tires are o r i e n t e d , if they're
f l a t or standing up, or maybe sloped up, b u t , uh,
generally, you'll see a flame anywhere from s i x to
nine f e e t would be a good average.
Uh, the o t h e r thing is, if you're

burning multiple tires a t a time, urn, f o r a human
to approach it is pretty difficult because of the
radiant heat that's coming off of it is a s a f e t y
hazard.
Q All right. How close would you be a b l e t o get t o
a fire in its f u l l effect? If you've got four or
five tires going at one time, would you be able

to be within two or t h r e e feet or would you be --
A No. No. I know from m y own personal experience of
burning t i r e s , I -- you know, I needed a long
implement, even if I'm burning one or two tires at a
time. And i f you had three or four, you probably

wouldn't even be able to get close to it without a
rake or something, without g e t t i n g some, you know,
uncomfortable feeling, and maybe even some, uh, skin
damage, thermal damage to the skin.
Q All right. Now, we talked a little bit about,

urn, steel-belted radial tires. But how about
r e g u l a r radial tires that don't have steel-belt
reinforcement? Are they a similar fuel source?

A Well, t h e y T r e a very good f u e l source. I n fact,
there" many tires out there that don't have steel
belts in. Typically, uh, trailer tires. In the
sense of a snowmobile trailer or a utility trailer.
As well as there's glass-belted radial tires, and

they don? use that, uh, s t e e l cording, so to speak,
that you would see in t h e r e . So there's, you know, a
fair number of t i r e s out t h e r e .
Q Was there any w a y f o r you, after examining this
scene, to determine whether there were any
regular, uh, radial-belted tires or glass-belted
radial tires there?

A No.
Q Uh, in terms of t h e i r consumption, do they leave

a -- the similar type of ash a n d r e s i d u e t h a t you
previously described and attributed to the
steel-belted radial tire?

A Yeah. T h e i r construction is basically a l l the same,
w i t h the e x c e p t i o n of the -- the belting material
being different .
Q All r i g h t . Now, in terms of, urn, the, uh,

investigation that you've been involved in, is
there -- c a n you g i v e u s a range of how Long it
would take to consume a human body in a f i r e to
t h e degree that, urn, the remains t h a t you
recovered here suggest?
A I couldn't give you an exact number of h o u r s , urn,

because there are some variables. If a body is
dismembered, it would burn faster because of higher
s u r f a c e exposure.
Q Let's s t o p r i g h t there and s t a r t w i t h that. Why

is that? Explain that?
A Well, if -- if you're l o o k i n g at a body in a fire,
you have to consider i t a piece of fuel that's --
that's exposed to the f i r e , And anytime you have

fuel with more surface area, it's going to b u r n
better.
It's l i k e taking a -- a 12-inch s t a c k of
newspapers and setting it on fire versus
separating all the newspapers out and giving it
more s u r f a c e area. Obviously, the newspapers
will burn quicker.

In addition to that, when y o u y e talking
about a body, one of the e f f e c t s that -- first
effect that the fire has on t h e human body is to
dehydrate it, because I'm sure a11 of you know

t h a t we have a lot of moisture in our bodies as
we're living here now, and that moisture has to
be d r i v e n out in o r d e r f o r a fire to consume the
body to reduce it down to fuel and consume it,
and down to its eventual skeletal remains.

So when you dismember a body, o r if
there's some sort o f an i n j u r y to t h e body, the,
u h , body will t e n d to bleed out, and if there's
l e s s blood in the body, it a c t u a l l y will be
consumed q u i c k e r , because there'll be less

moisture f o r it to be, u h , d e h y d r a t e d and
evaporated off before it's consumed.
Q So a r e you suggesting, then, if there are some
k i n d of pre-fire wounds to the body, that may
h a s t e n the, uh, consumption of the body in the

fire?
A Exactly.
Q What are some of t h e variables? You -- you

mentioned t h e r e are a -- a h o s t of variables, uh,,
involved t h a t would d i r e c t l y impact on how long
it would take to consume a body in a fire. What
a r e some of those variables 0th -- o t h e r t h a n the
one w e j u s t t a l k e d about?
A Well, t h e t y p e of fuel that's used certainly would be
an important factor. Tires would be a v e r y good
f u e l , and would speed up that process as compared to
say, green wood or some d i f f e r e n t types of firewood.
Uh, t h e t y p e of, uh, weather conditions t h a t are
present. Uh, heavy winds, c o l d weather, extreme cold
weather, t h o s e would a l l be f a c t o r s t h e r e , u h , as
well as the o r i e n t a t i o n of t h e f u e l and the body.
A n d what I'm saying there i s , urn, if a
body's left in a scene, a n d it's undisturbed, the
part of the body that" in c o n t a c t w i t h the

ground, i f you will, is protected by t h e ground
or t h e surface t h a t it's laying o n . We call
that, q u i t e f r a n k l y , a p r o t e c t e d area. Uh, if,
uh -- As in any t y p e of f i r e , if you were to stir
the fire and mix u p the f u e l , t h a t f u e l tends to
burn b e t t e r , and you -- you're removing --

exposing the protected area.
So if a body is i n a fire, a n d at some
point t h e -- the body is moved around, you'll be
exposing more of its s u r f a c e s and you'll be
hastening t h a t , uh, consumption precess also.
Q All r i g h t . Now, urn, what about continued

exposure to fuel or adding fuel? I mean, if you
were, u h , actively tending such a fire, what
effect would that have?

A Well, t h a t would certainly be probably a requirement
in order to burn a body out in an open pit, uh,

unless you had j u s t a n extraordinary amount of f u e l ,
l i k e we have in a house fire. Urn, but if you're
t a l k i n g about a n open b u r n p i t l i k e the one we saw
t h e r e , urn, you would have to be adding fuel in order
to continue that consumption process, because it

would take multiple h o u r s in order to destroy a body
in a fire in an open surrounding l i k e that.
Q All r i g h t . Wm, 1" going to have, uh,

Investigator, uh, Wiegert, urn, b r i n g over a
couple o f , uh, exhibits and have you take a l o o k
at them. We'll start with the rake. Urn, if you
would tell us, a g a i n , the exhibit number on
there?
A It's Exhibit No. 170,
Q All right. Exhibit -- Referencing, then, to, uh,

Exhibit No. 170, urn, have you seen that item
before?
A I have. Yes.
Q And tell us about the condition of that, uh,

exhibit? The rake? Exhibit --
A May I s t a n d --
Q -- 1 7 0 .
A -- j u s t stand up though?
Q Yes, p l e a s e .
A Okay. Urn, this is a rake that was f o u n d , uh, by t h e
burn pit. I guess I'd call it k i n d of a s o i l o r a --

a beach rake, is typically what it h a s . Uh, you can
see that the bottom third o r f o u r t h of it is a c t u a l l y
charred, and you can see some of the charring,
especially on the s a r -- side that would be exposed

down or towards the f i r e if it had been used to rake.
In addition ta that, you can see some
w i r e s in t h e r e , and those a r e some of those
steel-belted r a d i a l wires t h a t I was t e l l i n g you

a b o u t t h a t w e had observed in the b u r n p i t . So
this bottom t h i r d or p o r t i o n of that rake h a s
been exposed to a f i r e .
All r i g h t . Very good. And, uh, the next
exhibit, which is a spade?
Okay. And that's Exhibit 171, and it's just a

regular wooden-handled soil shovel, but, a l s o , you
can see i t -- it's been exposed to a f i r e on its
lower extremity by the darkening t h a t " there, only
to a lesser degree than the rake.

I see there's also some oxidation on the edging
of t h e spade?
Yes.
Is t h a t reflective of f i r e e x p o s u r e i n your
opinion as well?
That could very easily have come from t h e f i r e
because it would tend to r u s t quicker.
All r i g h t , Thank you. You may be seated. All
right. I'd l i k e to return, again, to o u r
discussion of, urn, fuel sources. Urn, again, I'm
directing your attention to, urn, Exhibit 169, the
p i c t u r e , urn, which is still on the screen, which
displays the, urn, uh, rear car or v a n seat that
we've talked about. Exhibit 174.

With respect to Exhibit 174, are you
familiar with what type of, urn, packaging or
seating normally accompanies a car seat?
A Well, there? u s u a l l y some s o r t of a v i n y l , or
f a b r i c , or leather-type covering over it, b u t the
padding material, frequently, is a polyurethane foam.
Urn, from a fire standpoint, polyurethane foam is --

i s a tremendous f u e l . Urn, in f a c t , uh, we have a --
a nickname f o r it, i n the f i r e investigation, as
solid g a s o l i n e , uh, because, j u s t l i k e a t i r e , it is,
uh, e i t h e r a synthetic o r a petroleum distillant, but
once it's ignited, it has a tremendous amount of heat
r e l e a s e into a room, uh, or into the environment
that's burning. It's -- it's a v e r y good fuel.
Q Uh, is it on a p a r , as it were, w i t h t i r e s in
terms of its ability to generate B T U s ?
A Uh, I'm n o t sure of t h e e x a c t breakdown, but I -- I
believe that it is. Urn, yeah. In fact, I -- if I'm

not mistaken, it might be slightly better than en --
energy released pound f o r pound than that, j u s t
because of its -- more often than not, it's a

capillary-type s t r u c t u r e , an open cell, and it t e n d s
to burn w i t h greater intensity.
Q All r i g h t .
ATTORNEY FALLON: If I may just have a
moment? We w i l l pass the witness. Thank you.

THE COURT: Cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
Q Mr. P e v y t o e , you indicated that you had a r r i v e d

on the scene on November 9 ?
A That's c o r r e c t , s i r .
Q Okay. And when you got there, y o u r f i r s t , urn,
step was to simply assess or evaluate the burn
pit?
A Well, that was the p r i m a r y one, But I -- I looked at

other a r e a s around t h a t were designated to be
searched and whatever, and t r i e d to make assessments
as to w h a t type of needs we would have f o r personnel

and materials and t h a t .
Q But -- but, in particular, you -- you were --

your attention was drawn to t h i s burn area or
burn p i t ?
A Well, t h e r e were several a r e a s , and the b u r n p i t was

included in that.
Q When you arrived to look a t the burn pit i n
particular, uh, did it appear to be as Exhibit

169 shows?
A No. It was covered w i t h a tasp.
Q Okay. Did you t a k e t h e tarp o f f ?
A Uh, they removed a portion of it, y e s .

Were you able t o see the van s e a t and the -- the
wiring, the large wad of w i r i n g ?
I believe so. Yes.
Had they already removed much of t h e s o i l or the
upper a s h from the b u r n p i t ?
Well, t h e y had removed t h e l o o s e a s h t h a t was in t h e

p i t , but there was s t i l l the darkened area and some
remains.
S o when you went to -- Was it at the Sheriff's
Department that you next went to -- to look at
some of the items that had been removed?
Well, that was on the following day.
Okay.
Uh, on the loth, in the morning, I went to the
Sheriff's Department, and I did a preliminary
examination of the, urn, ash that had been removed
from the p i t p r e v i o u s to me being at the scene.

So, obviously, you didn't remove any of that a s h ?
T h a t ' s correct.
And you didnft s i f t t h r o u g h the a s h ?

Which ash?
The a s h at the Sherifffs Department?
Yes.
You did s i f t through a l l t h a t ash?
Well, we examined that multiple times, because when

you're examining something, looking for small
evidentiary items, such as bone fragments and d e n t a l
fragments, it may take time. So, as I said, on the

loth, that was a preliminary examination, but, a l s o ,
in December, we w e n t back and literally went t h r o u g h

it piece by p i e c e , over a course of many hours with
many p e o p l e there, using a long, wooden s k e w e r to
remove each little fragment and examine it and g o
through the process t h e r e . So each time we w e r e
doing a more and more detailed examination. It3 a
very complex cli -- uh, process.
Q So over a p e r i o d of a b o u t 30 or 40 d a y s , you were

a b l e to, several times, go through the items,
s i f t through items, to f i n d , uh, things that
might have evidentiary value?

A I'm n o t sure of t h e time frame, b u t it was examined
multiple times, y e s .
Q Now, you indicated that you didn" find any bone

in t h e van seat?
A T h a t ' s correct.
Q B u t you did find some small pieces in the, uh --

the ba -- uh, the ball or the wad of -- of
steel-belted tire w i r i n g ?
A That" correct, I f o u n d multiple pieces entwined

into the mass of the wire.
Q And, a g a i n , j u s t go back. No one had removed the
w i r i n g or the van s e a t from t h e b u r n pit, just
some of t h e b u r n p i t a s h , itself?
A T h a t 3 correct.
Q S o when you w e n t back, t h e r e was still more t o do

in processing t h e burn pit?
A That's correct.
Q And -- And you were the one t h a t , t h e n , processed
it at that p o i n t ? You and o t h e r s ?
A Y e s , sir.
Q Did you oversee o r supervise the f i n a l processing

of the pit?
A Uh, more or less, and as well as participated in it,
Q Now, you -- you estimated that a fire that, uh,

had a p p r o x i m a t e l y f i v e t i r e s -- And -- and
that -- that w a s your approximation of the number
of t i r e s based o n the -- the -- the amount of
steel-belted wiring in the b u r n pit?
A Well, that -- that's sot fully correct, because there
could be additional t i r e s that had -- would n o t be
steel-belted. Uh, what I believe my testimony was,
is that there was -- I could see -- I'm -- feel
comfortable in saying that there was more than f i v e
steel-belted r a d i a l t i r e s t h e r e . I certainly can't
g i v e you a n estimate as to glass-belted utility

t i r e s , a l l those d i f f e r e n t things t h a t might have
been present t h e r e . J u d g i n g by the a s h t h a t was
r e m a i n i n g i n the pit, there was c e r t a i n l y a quantity.
And -- A n d you -- you agree w i t h me that you
can't tell when tires may have been burned in t h e
pit as well?
That's c o r r e c t . I c o u l d just say t h a t t h e remains

were there.
And the pit, itself, may have been used many
t i m e s o t h e r than immediately p r e c e d i n g law
enforcement coming t o the pit?
It's possible, but I don't know. I c a n only tell you
what I saw t h a t day.
Correct. There are things you don't know about
the pit that you can't -- even from your
observations and your training, you're unable to

tell?
That's c o r r e c t .
Under the h y p o t h e t i c a l that, uh, Attorney Fallon
had suggested, with, urn, a number of t i r e s in the

p i t , you'd i n d i c a t e d the intensity level would,
uh, potentially see flames of between six and
nine feet; correct?
Well, it'll vary w i t h the f u e l orientation and the
amount of fuel that's present there, but I have

b u r n e d tires and I know from m y research t h a t s i x t o
nine feet -- And you have to remember that the flames
are k i n d of going up and down, so t h e estimate is
g o i n g to vary as it goes a l o n g . There may be times
where it could go higher than that, visually, and
then come back down.

Because -- What we call that is a
d i f f u s i o n flame process. So it's n o t a , uh --
Or, excuse me. It's a turbulent flame, n o t a

d i f f u s i o n flame. A c a n d l e flame i s a diffusion
flame. It's a perfect flame. It doesn't seem to
vary. When we get an open f i r e , we s e e the
columns of visible, uh, luminescence coming up
and going down. The flames lick up and down.

That's why we see some variation of the flame
height.
And -- And t h e i n t e n s i t y of the fire, itself,

isn't simply vertical? It, uh -- be -- will
expand outward in a horizontal f a s h i o n as w e l l ?
Well, you have heat t r a n s f e r from several different

methods. One of those is radiant heat. And that
will be coming outward, unless it's impeded by a n
obstruction.
And -- And your testimony, I believe, was that
the radiant heat, the intensity, potentially,

would, uh, make it very d i f f i c u l t , or maybe even
impossible, f o r someone to be several feet from
the f i r e ?
A Well, that will depend on the intensity of the f i r e
at a n y g i v e n point. Uh, I j u s t know from my own
practical experience of a burning, being b y -- by
some burning t i r e s , if you have multiple t i r e s , a n d
it's -- they're burning freely in a f u l l -- free
state of b u r n , it is difficult to a p p r o a c h them or
g e t close to them because of the radiant h e a t c a u s i n g
thermal damage to t h e s k i n .
Q And, a g a i n , I simply was a s k i n g i f that was what
your testimony was before with Attorney Fallon,
that that could have -- you know, that amount o f ,
uh, of -- of t i r e s , or what have you,

accelerants, in the fire, because of the radiant
heat, would be very difficult to get within a
couple of feet?
A It would be, but you have to remember the v a r i a b l e of
how many tires are b u r n i n g a t a given time, because
the intensity of the f i r e is going to g o u p and down
with the fuel s o u r c e . S o if you have several tires
that a r e i n f u l l s t a t e of combustion, yes, it would
be difficult. If you have tires that a r e n o t f u l l y

burned, o r are already partially burned, then it
would be e a s i e r to approach.
Q S o someone could be s t a n d i n g r i g h t next to the
fire?
A At a given time, yes, depending on t h e f u e l that's
b u r n i n g , because t h e fire will go up and down, and
you can approach, and have t o s t a y away because of

the intensity of t h e f i r e .
4 And, h y p o t h e t i c a l l y , w i t h t h e more i n t e n s i v e
r a d i a n t heat, might have to stand three or f o u r
feet beyond t h e fire?
A Correct.
Q From your, u h , e x p e r i e n c e and t r a i n i n g , uh, a r e
you aware of any studies that have, urn, been

conducted in regards to the, urn, level of
intensity of -- of -- of the r a d i a n t heat from

one versus five tires? For example, wood versus
a -- a -- a t i r e - t y p e of substance o r
petroleum-based s u b s t a n c e ?
A There's a l o t of s t u d i e s that d e a l w i t h the energy
reaease of various materials that are o u t t h e r e .

Q Would o n e t i r e i n a fire be less i n t e n s i v e than
five tires in a -- a fire a t one g i v e n time?

A Yes, because of the amount of energy that's being
released. Without g e t t i n g t o o in depth, the
temperature would remain the same. Okay. The

temperature is n o t g o i n g to go up. It's always g o i n g
t o be about the same, because they're going to b u r n
at the same temperature level.
However, the more fuel you're -- you add

in t h e r e , it -- the f u e l is a11 being consumed
simultaneously. It will release more heat e n e r g y
in there j u s t because more f u e l is in the
combustion process.
So -- C o r r e c t . The temperature doesn't change.
It's the -- the energy or the -- that's released
from t h a t f i r e t h a t would be increased or

intensified?
Correct. It's called a heat release r a t e . We
generally measure it in joules and megawatts.

A -- again -- Again, hypothetically, would wood
burn at the same intensity as one petroleum-based

tire, for instance?
What specie of the wood and moisture content?
Let's j u s t s a y standard oak wood.
What's t h e moisture content?

Dry.
How dry?
F i f t y p e r c e n t dry.
Would n o t b u r n with the same i n t e n s i t y .

Okay. Would plastics, for instance, let's say,
milk cartons, b u r n at the same intensity as a
tire?
A Plastic milk cartons? The one-gallon jugs? Or the
wax paper c a r t o n s ?
Q The one-gallon jugs you would find, let's say, at

the -- the grocery store?
A I don" believe that they b u r n w i t h t h e same
intensity, b u t there" a lot of d i f f e r e n t

compositions these, so I'm reluctant t o s a y , w i t h o u t
knowing i t s exact chemical composition, to being able
to research it.
Q I -- I'm not t r y i n g to belabor t h e p o i n t , but if

I -- my -- if you don't mind, I've -- have a
couple e x t r a questions in that r e g a r d .
A Askaway.
Q All r i g h t . Clothing. Does c o t t o n f a b r i c

c l o t h i n g , f o r instance, for example, burn at the
same intensity level as, urn, one tire?
A No. Most t h i n g s b u r n at the same temperature r a n g e .
Intensity, as f a r as the heat release, is going to

vary w i t h the f u e l p r o d u c t . And you -- you have t o
be careful w i t h the terns y o u y e using. If you're
t a l k i n g about the heat release rate, it's going to be
greater from certain products than o t h e r s . If that's

what you're r e f e r r i n g t o as intensity? That's what
I'm assuming you're r e f e r r i n g to as intensity.
Q I -- I mean -- Exactly. The radiant heat
released from t h e Eire.
A The h e a t release rate from t h e f i r e ?
Q Correct.
A Okay. That's what you mean?
Q Correct.
A All right. It will v a r y with the types of fuels.
Q Okay.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have n o t h i n g else.
THE COURT: Any r e d i r e c t , Counsel?
ATTORNEY FRLLON: No, redirect.
THE COURT: You may s t e p down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're welcome. Your next

witness, Counsel?
ATTORNEY FALLON: State would call
Leslie Eisenberg.
THE CLERK: Please r a i s e y o u r right h a n d .

LESLIE EISENBERG,
called a s a w i t n e s s h e r e i n , h a v i n g been first duly
sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d as follows :
THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please state
your name and spell your last name f o r the record.

THE WITNESS: My name is Leslie Eisenberg,
49
DIRECT EXAMIUATLON
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q What is your occupation?

A I am currently employed at the Wisconsin Historical
S o c i e t y as t h e program c o o r d i n a t o r for the S t a t e of
W i s c o n s i n ' s B u r i a l S i t e s Preservation Program. I am
a l s o , urn, p r i v a t e l y employed a s a forensic
anthropologist.
Q What is a f o r e n s i c anthropologist?
A A f o r e n s i c anthropologist is someone who has had, uh,
training i n a n t h r o p o l o g y , and, specifically, in a
subfield c a l l e d physical anthropology, urn, t h a t l o o k s
at human variation, how we are the same and d i f f e r e n t
from each o t h e r , urn, with a s p e c i f i c focus on, uh,

anatomy and t h e s t u d y and u n d e r s t a n d i n g of -- of
human remains a s it a p p l i e s in a legal context.
Q All right. Doctor, uh, h o w is it that you are

involved in this case?
A I was r e q u e s t e d , urn -- My a s s i s t a n c e was requested by
t h e Calumet C o u n t y , uh -- by Calumet County law

enforcement, to provide assistance, urn, l o o k i n g at
human remains t h a t , uh, were recovered in November of
2005.
Q And, urn, you are here today to do what?

A I am here t o d a y to e x p l a i n my findings, and, uh, also
here today to r e n d e r several opinions, uh, notably,
about the sex and age of the remains of the
individual I examined, as w e l l as rendering a n
opinion as to the manner of death. Uh, how, urn --

how the person, uh, whose r e m a i n s I examined, urn,
died.
Q B e f o r e we do t h a t , urn, if we could, uh, talk a
little bit about, urn, your background and
training,
Urn, first of all, beginning with your
educational e x p e r i e n c e , urn, what degrees do you
hold?
A I h o l d a, urn, B a c h e l o r ' s Degree i n anthropology, a
Master's Degree in anthropology, a Ph.D, or a
Doctorate, i n anthropology. Urn, and I am a l s o a
board certified f o r e n s i c a n t h r o p o l o g i s t . One of 7 5
in t h e country.
Q What does board c e r t i f i e d mean?
A Board -- Uh, b e i n g called a board certified forensic

anthropologist, urn, means that you've jumped through
a lot of hoops a n d have had y o u r work, urn, carefully
scrutinized, urn, by members on the American Board of
Forensic Anthropology. Uh, in o r d e r t o receive the
title of what's called, diplomate, uh, which r e a l l y

means board certification, one must, uh, submit case
reports for evaluation by the board. And the board
then will determine whether or n o t you are f i t , urn,
or r e a d y to s i t for an all-day examination, uh, the
morning of which involves a written examination, and
the afternoon is a hands-on practical examination
involving the examination, analysis, and
interpretation o f bone in, uh, many different
conditions, urn, much of it fragmentary.
Q What, if you would, urn, are some of the key
positions or responsibilities that you have held

in the field of forensic anthropology that assist
you i n performing that w o r k ?
A Uh, n o t a b l y , I was a c o n s u l t a n t f o r t h e O f f i c e of
C h i e f Medical Examiner of N e w York from 1986 until
1993, when I moved to Wisconsin, urn, to take the
position as program coordinator for the Wisconsin

Historical Society's Burial Sites Preservation
Program, where I have occasion, on a fairly regular
basis, to examine and identify human bone, animal
bone, and so on, for law enforcement. Most of that
bone comes from archaeological or older c o n t e x t .
Uh, I also, since 1995, have been a
m e m b e r of a federal disaster team, a regional
federal disaster team, that goes by the -- the

acronym DMORT, D-M-0-R-T, which stands for
Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team.
And i n that c a p a c i t y I have been
deployed on several occasions, Uh, the earliest
of which was in 1999, uh, a t t h e site of an

Amtrak train crash in Bourbonnais, Illinois,
where there were fatalities primarily as a result
of, uh, urn, a f i r e in the sleeping car of -- of
that train.
Urn, after t h a t , I was asked, uh,

immediately after the World Trade Center attacks
on September 11, to be one of the f i r s t teams to

respond to t h e e a s t c o a s t d i s a s t e r , urn, where I
had occasion t o work t o i d e n t i f y , urn, and

examine, uh, fragmentary human and nonhuman
remains. Many of those remains, uh, had been
exposed to considerable t r a u m a , uh, a n d burning,
as you might imagine.
And, more r e c e n t l y , in September of

2005, I had occasion to be called or deployed
down to Mississippi after the, uh, Hurricane
Katrina, and at the same time, H u r r i c a n e Rita,
uh, came through, to h e l p i d e n t i f y remains, urn,
of, uh, i n d i v i d u a l s who d i e d , uh, d u r i n g the

hurricane, as well as collecting and identifying
s k e l e t o n i z e d human remains that had been washed
out of cemeteries, uh, in-ground burials a s well
as above ground mausoleums.
Q A11 right. And, urn, s o that we're -- How long
have you h e l d your board c e r t i f i c a t i o n in the

f i e l d of forensic a n t h r o p o l o g y ?
A Four ten y e a r s now. I received that certification
in, uh, 1 9 9 7 .
Q Urn, in addition to the, um, DMORT, uh,
appointments a n d status, have you received any
other, urn, noteworthy appointments?

A Urn, yes, 1 have. Urn, I have, urn -- May -- A r e you
talking about memberships or -- 15 you can c l a r i f y

for me --
Q Sure. In the, u h -- In the f i e l d of f o r e n s i c

anthropology, a r e -- are you -- there are some
appointments or memberships of groups that you
find particularly pertinent that a s s i s t you in
c o n d u c t i n g y o u r work?
A Understood. Thank you f o r that clarification. Uh,
from 1999 through 2 0 0 5 I was an elected board member

for t h e American Board of F o r e n s i c Anthropology, and
f o r the last three years of that s i x - y e a r
appointment, I was elected secretary of that board.
Q Do you have a n y particularly, urn, uh -- Well,

let's ask it this way. Do you have a n y
publications i n the f i e l d of forensic
anthropology?
Yes, I do, sir.

Tell us about those?
Urn, some of t h o s e publications are j o i n t l y authored
by others with whom I've worked. Urn, they appear in

what is the preeminent journal in the field of
forensic anthropology, which is c a l l e d the Journal of
Forensic Sciences.
Uh, I also have a number of o t h e r

publications, uh, that span the, urn -- the f i e l d s
of archaeology and f o r e n s i c anthropology that are
s p e c i f i c a l l y focused on human remains and t h e
identification of human remains.

I'm g o i n g to have, uh, Investigator Wiegert show
you Exhibit 199.
Yes, sir.
All right. And do you recognize that?
Yes, I do. I t ts my resum&, or w h a t , uh, is referred
to in the academic f i e l d as a curriculum v i t a e , a

history, um, of your accomplishments, if you will.
And d i d you prepare that?
Yes, s i r , I did.
I s that a true and a c c u r a t e summary of your

e d u c a t i o n a l training and professional experience
in b o t h , urn, uh, forensic anthropology and

otherwise?
A Yes, s i r , it is.
Q Very good. AT1 right, Doctor. D i r e c t i n g your

attention, t h e n , t o t h i s p a r t i c u l a r case, when
did you become involved in this case?
A I initially became involved in this case through a
telephone message that was l e f t f o r me on November 9
of 2005.
Q What were you asked to do?

A The, urn, contents of that voicemail message t h a t was
l e f t for m e w a s , uh, t h a t s o m e r e m a i n s had been
f o u n d , urn, and I was, uh, asked t o examine t h o s e
r e m a i n s t h a t had been l e f t for m e , uh, in a sealed,
uh, container in m y office awaiting my return.
Uh, a t the time I received that c a l l on
November 9 , I was in transit back to Madison from
a , uh, urn, national, urn, conference on missing
p e r s o n s i n Denver, C o l o r a d o . I was one of
several people a t t h e time who was representing

the state of Wisconsin at that conference.
Q A n d what were the tasks? What, specifically,
w e r e you asked to do, urn, by law e n f o r c e m e n t ?
A I was asked to examine, urn, items that were in a, urn,

flat, uh, cardboard box t h a t had been sealed with
evidence tape when I received it. Urn, and I was
asked to identify if any of -- of t h e items in t h a t
box w e r e o f human o r i g i n .
I'm going to have Investigator Wiegert b r i n g you

a s e r i e s o f photographs.
Thank you.
I believe the first photograph there i s marked as

Exhibit 183. We'll have that displayed on the
screen in a moment. Urn, let me a s k , do you
recognize that?
Yes, s i r , I do.
All r i g h t . A n d what is, urn, d e p i c t e d in Exhibit
183?
I, along with o t h e r investigators, are s o r t i n g , uh,

t h r o u g h material t h a t was collected, urn, uh, from the
Steven Avery p r o p e r t y , and -- and we a r e l o o k i n g

through this m a t e r i a l , uh, w i t h the objective of
looking f o r any human remains or other o b j e c t s of
significance that had been collected from that

property.
Tell us a little b i t a b o u t t h a t process that's

depicted in the photograph, if you would?
The p r o c e s s , uh, t h a t I used to, urn, examine a l l the

material presented to me f o r e x a m i n a t i o n , urn, is a
f a i r l y systematic process, and a process that e v e r y
f o r e n s i c anthropologist goes through.
And -- And the first thing that I do,
uh, and the major contribution that a n y f o r e n s i c
anthropologist can make to an investigation like

this, involves, urn, the recognition and sorting
of human bone, and in this case burned human

bone, from burned and unbone -- unburned, uh,
nonhuman bone.
The next step in that process is l o o k i n g
a t the b u r n e d human bone t h a t has been sorted o u t

to see if there are any diagnostic o r telling,
urn, attributes or t r a i t s o n any of those
fragments, urn, that can tell the anthropologist
something about whose remains you are l o o k i n g at.

The next s t e p i n t h e process is t a k i n g
those diagnostic fragments and developing what we
c a l l in the field a biological profile. And what
that means is determining, if you can, the age of
the individual, the sex of the individual, the
stature of the i n d i v i d u a l , how tall they were,
urn, and the ancestry, if possible.
Also, uh, critically important is to
determine, um, if there's anything e l s e you can
t e l l from these diagnostic fragments, including

the presence of any trauma to those remains, u h ,
t h a t may have been sustained o r may have occurred
in w h a t we c a l l t h e antemortern interval, the

interval before d e a t h , the perimortem i n t e r v a l ,
p-e-r-i-n-o-r-t-e-m, and that simply means at or
near t h e t i m e of death, or in the postmortem
interval, uh, during a time after d e a t h .
And, urn, the o t h e r a c t i v i t y t h a t I
undertook with t h e s e burn fragments was t r y i n g to
see if I could r e f i t a n y of those fragments with

each other,
Q Very well. What is the -- the next photograph?

I believe would be Exhibit 184; is that correct?
A That is c o r r e c t .
Q And w h a t i s depicted in Exhibit 184?
A That is, uh, a photo of myself and some other
investigators l o o k i n g through additional material
that had been collected for the presence of a n y human
remains, bone fragments, d e n t a l structures, or
anything else that we considered significant.
Q All right. And t h e next photograph? Exhibit

185, I believe?
A That is c o r r e c t .
Q All r i g h t .
A Exhibit 185 represents, urn, the i n t e r i o r and contents
of t h e box that was i n i t i a l l y left for me for
examination on November 9 of 2 0 0 5 that I had the

o p p o r t u n i t y to initially examine the following day on
November 10, 2005.
Q All r i g h t . Let's s t o p t h e r e f o r a m o m e n t a n d
talk a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t the -- the box and i t s
contents. What were the condition 0 5 t h o s e
contents? T h e bones that you -- or -- or
fragments, is probably the best way of d e s c r i b i n g
i t , when --
A Well --
Q -- you l o o k e d at them?
A As I look in this photograph and -- and on the
screen, what I can see, and what I saw at the time,
are, urn, fragments of m a t e r i a l , some of which were,
urn, clearly identifiable as human bone fragments that
were heavily burned and, in some cases, calcined.
Some of the bone that you see that l o o k s white in
color, urn, is what we call calcined.
Urn, it is, urn -- It represents bone t h a t
h a s lost its moisture content, because all bone,
urn, h a s -- has fat content, has moisture content,

has blood running t h r o u g h it, and when it's
exposed to h e a t , a n d considerable heat, that
moisture, and the blood, and the -- and the fatty

tissue, the marrow, urn, will a l l d r y u p , and the
bone, itself, the or -- the organic content of
the bone, urn, what makes bone, bone, urn, also
disappears. And the bone -- calcined bone

becomes, um, almost l i k e a piece of p o r c e l a i n o r
ceramic in that if you, urn, knock it against a

table, it will sound v e r y much l i k e a piece of
porcelain.
Q In terms of -- As a forensic anthropologist, who

o f t e n is called upon to attempt identification of
remains, are there varying levels or degrees of

destruction that you forensic anthropologists
utilize to categorize e x a c t l y the condition of
the items you're examining?
A We do. Urn, in 1996, there was, urn, a very basic
scheme developed, uh, by a f o r e n s i c anthropologist

from Texas, and a colleague of his. Urn, it -- it's
known as the Crow-Glassman Scales. C-r-o-w, hyphen,
Glassman, G-1-a-s-s-m-a-n, And what Crow and
Glassman did was set up a five-stage, or five-level
scheme, if you will, that talks about increasing
levels of burning on bone.
Uh, level one, for example, would
involve a body that was charred, but would be
visually recognizable, urn, to, uh, people who

know -- knew him o r h e r , o r t o f a m i l y members.
And that starts with level one and goes
up to level five, and, increasingly, urn, there
is, uh, more destruction to t h e body. The body
t h e n becomes u n r e c o g n i z a b l e . Urn, and, urn, level
five is, uh -- depicts the body in a s t a t e that
is primarily o n l y recognizable, because of its
fragmentation and burning, to forensic

anthropologists and forensic dentists.
Q Andin nipparticular --Andin this particular
case, what was t h e level or condition of the, uh,

fragments you w e r e asked to examine?
A In -- In my o p i n i o n , the fragments that I was asked
to examine, that I i d e n t i f i e d as -- as, uh, burned
human fragments, would have fallen into that last
category, urn, the most destructive category, level

five .
Q All r i g h t . I s this what is sometimes referred to
a s t h e ultimate l e v e l of destruction?
A Uh, by some a u t h -- a u t h o r s , yes, i t i s .
Q In this p a r t i c u l a r case, of a l l the fragments

t h a t you examined, did -- you were -- were you
able to locate any, urn, human s k u l l fragments?
A Yes, sir, I -- I was able to.
Q A -- A -- ApproximateLy, how many fragments were

you able to locate?
There were --
Or i d e n t i f y ?
There were approximately 58 fragments t h a t were, urn,
i d e n t i f i a b l e as human and diagnostic to the point
t h a t I could s a y these fragments came from a human
skull.
In terms of, urn -- H o w much of a human s k u l l was
repre -- was represented by those 5 8 fragments?
Rough estimate, i f you have one?
A rough estimate, urn, I would say, perhaps, a

q u a r t e r , and that may be a n exaggerated estimate,
C o u l d be less?
It could be less.
All r i g h t , Doctor, let's begin w i t h some of y o u r

conclusions or findings. F i r s t , based on y o u r
examination of the bones recovered from the p i t
b e h i n d t h e garage of Steven Avery, did you f i n d
evidence of human remains?
Yes, sir, I d i d .
A n d were they in, urn -- Were you able to i d e n t i f y

t h e relative age of the person whose remains you
examined?
Yes, I was able to determine a r e l a t i v e age of -- of
the person whose remains I d i d examine.

Q Tell us about that, please?
A T h e r e are, urn, many techniques that forensic
a n t h r o p o l o g i s t s u s e t o d e t e r m i n e someone's age, urn,
when remains a r e unrecognizable and e i t h e r too
decomposed or, urn, skeletonized f o r a traditional,

urn, autopsy.
Um, i n t h i s case, there, urn -- Because
of the fragmentation and burning, urn, many of --
of the characteristics o r traits we look at to
make t h a t determination, urn, were n o t present or
not recognizable because of the condition of the
remains,
B u t there were several areas, urn, of the
face, urn, s k u l l , if you will, and what we call
the postcranial remains, the remains below the

skull, that were able to h e l p me come to a
determination of an approximate age of t h e

individual whose remains I examined.
Q And what was that?
A M y determination was t h a t the remains of the
individual I examined were no older than 3 0 to 35

y e a r s of age.
Q All right. If you could explain f o r u s that --
t h a t range, that step, you j u s t gave u s , 3 0 to
35, in terms of the f i e l d of forensic
64
anthropology and identification, what does that
mean o r represent?
A Well, what that means to all of us, really, is that
once we, um -- as we age, and at about the year --
the age of about 30 to 35, urn, o u r body starts
showing signs of wear, and that wear is -- is
degenerative. In other words, it's something that

happens w i t h use, as -- as we use our bodies to do
l o t s of t h i n g s . And that" sat about the time when

forensic anthropologists can pick up signs of
arthritis, or what's sometimes called degenerative

j o i n t disease, on many parts of the s k e l e t o n .
Urn, what I did note, from t h e j o i n t
s u r f a c e s that were present to examine, w a s t h a t
t h e r e were absolutely no t r a c e s of the beginnings
of arthritis, urn, which allowed me to cap t h e age
as no older than 30 to 35 y e a r s .
Urn, I also had an opportunity in l o o k i n g
at the skull fragments, urn -- And some of t h o s e

fragments had suture lines. Urn, when we think of
I
the skull, we may t h i n k of a -- a -- a ball-like
s t r u c t u r e , or a sphere-like structure, but, in

fact, our skulls are made up of many j o i -- uh,
bones t h a t come together at what are kind of

joints. They're not like a s h o u l d e r j o i n t or a
65
h i p j o i n t , but it's where the bones fit together,
almost l i k e teeth in a zipper in -- in some
places, and -- and t h o s e openings, c a l l e d
sutures, where those bones come together, u h , had
n o t fused, urn, which is something you typically
see as someone, uh -- in someone who's much older
than 3 0 to 35.
Q All right. So, in effect, then, you're telling

u s the -- these are the remains of a person who's
under age 3 0 ?
A Yes, sir.
Q A11 right. Were you able to determine the sex of
the person by t h e remains which were recovered?
A Y e s , s i r , I was.
Q And what -- what did you c o n c l u d e ?

A Based on examining certain diagnostic fragments, I
was able to determine that the remains presented to
me for analysis, those fragmented and burned remains,
were those of a female.
Q All right. 1 7 m going to have, uh, uh, t h e next
e x h i b i t , I believe the photograph is in front of
you, it should be at 186?

A That's correct, sir.
Q We have that now on the screen. Urn, does t h i s ,

uh, photograph assist you in explaining why you
66
concluded t h e s e were the remains of a female?
A Uh, this -- t h i s image, urn, is -- is one of t h e a r e a s

I looked at in the body that allowed me to make t h a t
I
I
conclusion.
Q All r i g h t . T e l l us about that?
A What --
Q Now -- Now, there is a laser p o i n t e r . It should

be right n e x t to the --
A Ah, y e s .
Q -- witness box?
A T h a n k you.
Q And if you would probably use the larger screen
to point, it m i g h t work better.
A Okay.
I
Q Are those shovels in t h e way? Rakes?
A NO, they a r e -- they're not. Urn, what we are L o o k i n g
at i n -- Here we go. What we are l o o k i n g at in this

image are fragments from, urn -- from a face, and we
a r e l o o k i n g at these fragments as if we are l o o k i n g
at someone face to face. And so l e t me point out
some of the landmarks to you to h e l p you orient what
it is you're looking a t .
Urn, t h i s area here represents the top of
the left e y e s o c k e t . This fragmentary bone, urn,

and this e y e -- the t o p of the eye s o c k e t , is
67
actually p a r t of the bone t h a t continues up to
begin -- to become the forehead. So we have the
top of the Left eye socket, the Left half of the
nose. The n a s a l bones a r e t w o in number. And
what this fragment is, is the left half of the
nasal bones.
These a r e fragments from the right --

what would be the area above the right eye
socket.
This is a complete -- and one o f the f e w

complete -- bones that I actually had a n
opportunity to examine. A complete r i g h t
cheekbone. And while the placement may be a
little off i n this photo, what you are l o o k i n g at
h e r e is t h e lower p o r t i o n of t h e right eye
socket.
This is a fragmentary portion of the
left cheekbone, and a portion of a bone t h a t r u n s

from t h e left cheekbone over and above t h e left
open -- the opening f o r the left ear.
Q All r i g h t . If we c o u l d g o t o t h e next exhibit,
uh, 1 8 7 ?
A Yes, sir.
I
Q And what a r e we l o o k i n g at here?
A What we are l o o k i n g at here is a closeup of -- of a
68
p o r t i o n of w h a t we saw in the previous g r a p h i c .
Excuse me. Again, this -- t h e top of the left eye
socket, the portion of what then continues up to be
t h e forehead, or what we c a l l the frontal bone, a n d
the left h a l f of the nose at -- t h i s would be the
area that we would r e f e r to a s the b r i d g e of the
nose. This is the left half of the two nasal bones.
Q All r i g h t . Now, w i t h respect to t h e Last two

exhibits, 1 8 6 and 1 8 7 , what is it about them that
specifically assists you in, urn, identifying
these remains as a female?
A F a i r l y diagnostic, or telling, to a n y forensic

anthropologist, o r a n y biological anthropologist, i s
that there are certain shapes that, urn, are
characteristically female in the s k e l e t o n , and o t h e r

shapes, what we call morphology, that are
characteristically male. And one of those key
locations that anthropologists look at, urn, is
actually the t o p of the e y e s o c k e t .

In females, that rim, or ridge, is
f a i r l y s h a r p and -- and, urn, does not protrude.
In male skulls, that area, that edge, is v e r y

blunt, and you often see heavy bone development
over the eye sockets. And we don't see t h a t
here. I don't see that here. And what I see in

terms of morphology, and s h a p e , and g e n e r a l bone
architecture to the f a c i a l bones, b u t especially
above the left e y e s o c k e t , uh, l e a d s m e to
conclude that these f a c i a l bones and, i n
p a r t i c u l a r , t h i s bone h e r e , um, comes from a
female.
Q All r i g h t . Now, urn, D o c t o r , d u r i n g t h e course of

I
preparing, urn, and in reviewing t h e m a t t e r s of
t h i s case, did you have occasion to work w i t h a
Tim Austin from the Wisconsin S t a t e Patrol?

A Yes, sir, I d i d .
Q And did he assist you with some of the, urn,
e x h i b i t s that we're about to see?
A Yes, he did.
Q All r i g h t . If you would, uh, take y o u r a t t e n t i o n

to the next, uh, photograph? A11 right. And
this is Exhibit 188?

A Yes, sir.
I
Q A n d w h a t are we l o o k i n g a t here w i t h E x h i b i t 1 8 8 ?
A What w e a r e l o o k i n g a t h e r e i s a g r a p h i c d e p i c t i o n ,
urn, of n o t a r e a l s k u l l , but a -- a
computer-generated s k u l l , and, urn, t h e arrows and t h e
d e s c r i p t i o n s on t h i s g r a p h i c p o i n t t o t h e areas of
the s k u l l and the f a c i a l bones that have been

recovered, and identified by me, and described to
TO
you, in the previous slides.
Q And that -- 1 see there" a notation, Evidence
Tag 8318. Is that a t all referenced to the box
that we previously examined?
A Yes, sir. The a r e a , uh -- We don't see a l l of it
here, but the i d e n t i f i e r for this p a r t i c u l a r s l i d e
that says, Evidence Tag 832 -- and we'll w a i t f o r t h e
8 t o show up -- 8318, w a s t h e , urn, e v i d e n c e t a g
identifier f o r that white opened box we saw earlier
on. Uh, t h e material that was i l l i t -- initially

c o l l e c t e d and, urn, t h e m a t e r i a l t h a t I i n i t i a l l y
examined and s o r t e d t h r o u g h .
Q ALL r i g h t . A l l right. N e x t exhibit, p l e a s e ?
S h o u l d be Exhibit 1 8 9 ?
A Yes, s i r .
Q A l l right. And, urn, i f you would, what i s
depicted here?
A What i s d e p i c t e d here, through the work of, uh,

T r o o p e r Tim Austin, urn, are t w o , urn,
computer-generated skeletons. Urn, the one on the
l e f t represents t h a t of a female, and the one on the

right, that of a male.
Q All right. And, urn, in terms of the, uh, e y e

I
sockets, if you" take a moment to, urn, highlight

I
the distinctions that you've j u s t been t a l k i n g
71
about?
A In the fragmentary s k u l l and facial bones t h a t were
recovered, the area that I was p o i n t i n g out a little
b i t e a r l i e r was j u s t above the left e y e s o c k e t and
above, uh, the bridge of the nose. In this female
skeleton, on the left, I hope you can appreciate, urn,
t h e roundedness and the sharpness of the rim, or t h e
t o p edge, of that l e f t e y e s o c k e t ,
Q Would it help if we zoomed i n on that?

A It may for the j u r y , sir. This area in particular,
urn, is a hallmark o f , urn, what anthropologists

r e c o g n i z e , or identify, as -- as coming from a female
s k e l e t o n , because it's a relative, urn, urn,
gracileness or, urn, I guess sharpness, and -- and,
urn, smoothness 0 5 that edge. In contrast to what we

would see in a t y p i c a l male s k e l e t o n , urn, here's t h e
bridge of the nose, the t o p of the left eye socket,
and I hope you can appreciate or see, urn, the a r e a
here where above t h e left eye s o c k e t there's a
considerable b u i l d u p of bone, urn, and, as well, the
edge or the shape of t h e t o p of t h e e y e socket is

much more rounded and substantial.
Q Doctor, urn, although you determined the relative
age and -- and sex of the person, were you a b l e
to determine, urn, ancestry or stature of the

person after your examination of the remains?
A No, s i r , I was not. And that was, uh, because of t h e
extreme fragmentation and burning that did n o t allow
me to reconstruct, urn, some of the long bones. In
particular, the t h i g h bone that I would t y p i c a l l y
measure to develop a -- a s t a t u r e estimate.
Likewise, many of the landmarks that I
would u s e to d e t e r m i n e ancestry or racial
affiliation, uh, were not p r e s e n t because of that
fragmentation.
Q All right. As a f o r e n s i c a n t h r o p o l o g i s t , are you

familiar with the concepts of cause and manner of
death?
A Yes, s i r , I am.
Q Urn, f i r s t of all, tell u s , urn, are you f r e q u e n t l y
asked to render opinions on, uh, for i n s t a n c e ,
cause or, perhaps, manner of death?
A More o f t e n , and most o f t e n , I a m asked to render
opinions as to what's called manner of death. By
what mechanism d i d someone die? Less o f t e n , cause of
d e a t h , because o f t e n that's the purview of a forensic
pathologist. But in cases like this, where the
remains are so fragmentary and, uh, a r e too
fragmentary, urn, f o r a t r a d i t i o n a l autopsy, i t often
falls t o the forensic anthropologists to make a

determination about w h a t f s called cause of death and
manner of death.
Q All right. Then i n your f i e l d of forensic
a n t h r o p o l o g y , what is the difference between
cause a n d manner 0 5 d e a t h , if you would explain
far us?
A As it's generally understood in -- in, uh, forensic

anthropology, cause of death is, urn, fairly explicit.
In o t h e r words, what did the person die from?
Manner of d e a t h , however, speaks to t h e
mechanism. What caused the death? How did the

person d i e ?
Q All right. Can you g i v e us an example, for

instance, of a distinction t h a t you might
commonly r u n across in -- in your forensic work?
A Oh, I guess cause of d e a t h , urn, if -- if I p r e t e n d e d
to be a forensic pathologist f o r a minute, urn, m i g h t
be, urn, heart attack, or tuberculosis.
Urn, a manner of d e a t h , urn, f o r a heart
attack, might be, urn, accidental. Manner of
death, uh -- in general, there are four d i f f e r e n t

categories, urn, t h a t a r e understood when w e t a l k
about manner of death. And, urn, one of those
c a t e g o r i e s can be a natural death, which m i g h t
r e s u l t from a h e a r t a t t a c k .
A second category of manner of d e a t h
m i g h t be considered accidental. Did someone fall
off a ladder, urn, hit their head, uh, or sustain
a spinal i n j u r y and d i e accidentally?
Urn, a third manner of d e a t h is s u i c i d e .
And f o u r t h , most commonly recognized, is
homicide.
Q Is t h e r e sometimes a fifth? S u c h as unexplained?
A Unexplained. Or sometimes even a sixth, u h , being
undetermined.
Q Okay. Based upon your training and experience --

Excuse me. Based upon your training and
experience, and t h e e x a m i n a t i o n that you
conducted in this case, do you have an opinion as
to the manner of death of the individual whose
remains you examined?
A Yes, s i r , I do.
Q What is that o p i n i o n ?
A It is m y opinion that the remains of the i n d i v i d u a l I
examined d i e d as a result of -- of a homicide, and,

in p a r t i c u l a r , homicidal -- w h a t I am calling
homicidal violence.
Q All sight. Now, during the c o u r s e of this
investigation, urn, did you have an opportunity,
uh, to meet and consult with a -- a physician b y
75
the name of J e f f r e y Jentzen?
A Yes, s i r , I did.
Q And who is Jeffrey Jentzen?
A Dr. Jeffrey Jentzen is a very well-known and
well-respected forensic anthropologist who is the
medical examiner for Milwaukee County, Wisconsin.
Q A11 right. And just, generally, then, the

distinction between a forensic pathologist, and a
forensic anthropologist, which you are, j u s t ,
b r i e f l y , what's t h e d i f f e r e n c e ?
A Well, if you ask a forensic pathologist what the

diffexence is, t h e i r first answer will be that t h e y ,
uh, have been to medical school. T h e y a r e real
doctors. And forensic anthropologists are fake

I
doctors, because they o n l y have a Ph.D. B u t , in
g e n e r a l , urn, u h , f o r e n s i c pathologists are d o c t o r s
who specialize, u h , i n p a t h o l o g y a n d who have further
training and certification in a field called forensic
pathology, or pathology, urn, that is applied in legal
context.
Urn, they typically perform autopsies on,
urn, a l l types of remains, most of which, I would
s a y , are recognizable. The -- the people can be
v i s u a l l y recognizable. Sometimes those
individuals, urn, have died as a r e s u l t of a
76
burning episode, or a drowning, urn, or any o t h e r ,
urn, t y p e of -- of, urn, activity.
Q All right. And, urn, d i d you a n d D r . J e n t z e n look

at, urn, several of t h e cranial fragments d u r i n g
the course of this investigation?

A Yes, sir, on one occasion.
Q Very well. Urn, I ' d l i k e to r e t u r n , again, to
y o u r o p i n i o n regarding h o m i c i d a l violence, and
ask you, why d o you believe, based on your
examination, that that is the correct or accurate
manner of d e a t h ?
A After having examined all the fragments, and, uh, you

have just seen one box of 5 0 d i f f e r e n t c o n t a i n e r s
that L had the opportunity to, uh, sort t h r o u g h to

distinguish human from nonhuman bone, urn, to look f o r
d i a g n o s t i c human elements, to look f o r human bone
that may have showed signs of trauma, to try and
r e f i t fragments t h a t may have come from any one o f 50
d i f f e r e n t containers, there were t w o , uh, skull
fragments, in particular, that, to me, showed clear
and, uh, unquestionable evidence for, uh, what I
c o n s i d e r antemortern, o r b e f o r e d e a t h , uh, trauma.
Q All right. Urn, was there anything a b o u t t h e ,
uh -- the fact that the fragments were burned or

calcined that a t t r i b u t e d to your opinion on
77
homicidal v i o l e n c e ?
A Well, I think anytime, urn, remains are burned beyond
recognition, urn, and, urn, that burning is n o t of a n
accidental nature, I t h i n k that the f a c t that t h e s e

remains came primarily f r o m a b u r n p i t , urn, t h a t the
~
fact t h a t someone attempted to obscure t h e identity
of another individual through burning, certainly

could be considered, urn, p a r t of that umbrella
heading, homicidal v i o l e n c e .
Q A l l right. Doctor, would you look at the next,
uh, photograph? This is marked, I believe, as
Exhibit 190?
A Yes, s i r .
Q What are w e l o o k i n g at in Exhibit 190?
A Weare l o o k i n g at something that's probably
unrecognizable to everyone in this courtroom except
myself. There are two skull fragments here. We are
l o o k i n g at the internal side of two s k u l l bones
that -- a c t u a l l y , t h r e e s k u l l bones. I was able to

r e f i t t h e s e two bones together a l o n g this, uh,
f r a c t u r e break, as well as a t h i r d fragment t h a t fits
a l o n g this edge.
These a r e three fragments from the l e f t
side of a human s k u l l , urn, and one of those

fragments shows, uh, evidence t h a t I believe
78
would speak to my determination of homicidal
violence.
Q All right. If you would take t h e , urn, uh,

p o i n t e r and describe for u s what it is you're
looking at?
A Yes, sir. Urn, the reason I know t h a t this is the
inside of a human s k u l l , a r e t h e s e vessel

impressions, these blood vessel impressions, that
kind of l o o k l i k e spider webs, or an a e r i a l view of
a -- of a road network somewhere in this country.
Urn, the vessels that r u n a l o n g the
i n s i d e of t h e s k u l l actually sit i n these
c h a n n e l s , and, urn, t h e positioning of these
c h a n n e l s , and the direction of these channels,
actually allows me to make a determination as to
whether this bone comes from t h e left side of the

s k u l l or the right side of the s k u l l .
These three bones are a l l p a r t of a bone

called the p a r i e t a l bone. P-a-r-i-e-t-a-1. And
we have a parietal bone on the left s i d e of o u r
skull and a corresponding, or m i r r o r , parietal

bone on t h e right side of o u r s k u l l .
Q ALL r i g h t . A n d what is it about the indentation
at the t o p of the p i c t u r e here which is of
significance to you in your o p i n i o n on homicidal

-
violence?
A When I looked at this fragment, there was a n area of
this fragment that caught my a t t e n t i o n almost
immediately, a n d it's this area here that I believed
was quite significant with respect to a -- a
determination of -- of horn -- homicidal violence.
T o me, based on my experience, this

would be considered what's called internal
beveling. Now, remember, we're l o o k i n g inside
the s k u l l at t h i s moment, a n d where the hard
compact bone of the inside of the s k u l l s t o p s ,

urn, what you're looking a t is -- is k i n d of a
honeycomb-looking bone. That is, a bone that's
sandwiched between the outside of t h e skull and
the inside of the skull. And whenever there is,

urn, a, uh -- an unnatural defect to the s k u l l
t h a t l o o k s like t h i s , urn, where you have internal
beveling, or what some people call c r a t e r i n g of
the inside of t h e s k u l l , urn, it is identified,

uh, as, urn, a n e n t r a n c e wound from a g u n s h o t .
Q All right. Urn, next exhibit? This is Exhibit

191?
R Yes, sir.
Q ' All r i g h t . And what are we l o o k i n g at in Exhibit
191?
80
A What we a r e l o o k i n g at here is the f l i p s i d e of t h e
three bones we had just examined depicting the inside

I
of the skull. What you are l o o k i n g at now is the
outer portion of the skull. And I would c a l l y o u r
a t t e n t i o n to this area right here. That is the f l i p

side, or t h e o t h e r s i d e , of the, urn, area that I've
identified as an entrance wound from a gunshot.

Q A11 right. Now, I n o t i c e d , j u s t so that we can
have it explained, there seem to be some, urn, uh,
colored dots, and -- and, uh, one arrow on there,
if you could tell us, if you know, what t h o s e

are?
A I would be happy to. The, urn -- I n i t i a l l y , because
t h e r e were so many fragments to examine, urn, and
those fragments -- each were identified, urn, with the
location from where they came, I thought it might be

I
necessary to b e g i n to, urn, mark the bone, urn, to
reference t h e i r location of where they were initially

found. And what I s t a r t e d to do was, urn, to mark
those individual fragments that had come from
different Locations, or from the same general

location, simply with different c o l o r nail polish.
Urn, additionally, the -- the s k u l l
fragments were also t a k e n to be x - r a y e d , and
whenever any of those fragments, urn, showed

I
81
something unusual and unexpected in x-ray, those
fragments also received a nail polish color, but
of a different color to distinguish them from the
skull bone fragments that showed no unusual s i g n s
in x-ray.
I
Wh, additionally, it ' s m y understanding
that this copper-colored arrow pointing to t h e

opening, urn, for what I believe is an e n t r a n c e
wound on this left s i d e of t h e s k u l l , this, I
believe, was a f f i x e d o r placed by, uh, s t a f f f r o m
t h e Wisconsin S t a t e Crime L a b o r a t o r y .
Q And, a s a m a t t e r of f a c t , urn, to whom did you,
urn, refer, urn, these, um, fragments for further
r a d i o l o g i c a l o r metallurgic a n a l y s i s ?
A I had made c o n t a c t with a forensic pathologist at the
Middleton Veterans Memorial Hospital in Madison, a
Dr. M i c h a e l S t i e r , S-t-i-e-r, who w a s able to set up

an appointment for me to have t h e s e , uh, s k u l l
fragments x-rayed.
Q All right. And after they were x-rayed, did you

have anyone e l s e at the Wisconsin Crime Lab
f u r t h e r examine them?
A Y e s , sir. It was my recommendation that t h e s e
fragments -- The fragments that showed unusual
signatures, if you will, in x-ray, urn, it was my
82
recommendation that those signatures be examined for
t h e presence of any non-natural element or object
other than what we would a l l expect to see associated
w i t h human bone.
Q All r i g h t . And were they subsequently, uh,
examined by K e n n e t h Olson from t h e Crime Lab?

A Yes, s i r , they were.
@ AIL r i g h t . Urn, the next, uh, photograph, please?

T h i s would be Exhibit 1 9 2 ?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what a r e we l o o k i n g at in Exhibit 192,

Doctor?
A This is another one of those burned fragmentary s k u l l
bones, uh, on which I i d e n t i f i e d what 1 believe is

a n o t h e r , uh, entry from a gunshot.
Q And what -- Which, urn, t y p e o f the -- or what

part of the s k u l l is depicted in Exhibit 1 9 2 ?
A What we are l o o k i n g a t here is a fragment from t h e
back of the s k u l l , the part of the skull you can feel
when you r u b your hand up and down above the nape of
your neck. It's called the occipital bone,

O-c-c-i-p-i-t-a-1.
Q All right. And, again, if y o u ' d use the p o i n t e r .
Urn, what was of i n t e r e s t or significance to you
with respect to this o c c i p i t a l bone?

A I saw the same bony signature, the same u n n a t u r a l
defect, in this fragment from t h e occipital bone as I
d i d i n the p r e v i o u s , uh, bone, t h e parietal bone,
from the left side of the skull, where you can see
that honeycomb appearance, uh, on the inside of the
skull.
And here we are looking at the inner

table, o r the i n s i d e of the occipital bone,
seeing the same kind of concentric -- p a r t i a l
c o n c e n t r i c defect w i t h the exposure of the
honeycomb portion, or the intermediate portion,
of the s k u l l bone, urn, where t h e f o r c e of the

e n t r y actually, urn, blows a larger area -- or
develops t h a t cratering t h a t I spoke a b o u t a
minute ago.
Q All right. Urn, n e x t exhibit, please? Now, w e % e

had some discussions regarding t h e p a r i e t a l , uh,
defect, Urn, we're showing you, now, Exhibit 193?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. And does this, uh, show the r e l a t i v e

placement of the parietal bone and t h e defect
that you observed?

A Yes, sir, i t does. What we a r e l o o k i n g at is a
computer-generated image of a human s k e l e t o n , and we
a r e l o o k i n g at that s k e l e t o n from -- you're l o o k i n g
84
towards the left side of the skeleton. So we are
looking at the left side of the skull. And that area
identified with the arrow and the -- the purple or

lavender color is the p a r i e t a l bone and the
approximate location of that initial defect that I
identified as a gunshot entry wound.

All right.
THE COURT: Counsel, T 1 m going to interrupt
j u s t f o r a moment. Are we getting to t h e close of
this? Or, p e r h a p s , it's appropriate to take a break

now?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, I was j u s t
t h i n k i n g of that, We have about 1 5 minutes o r
so. Do you want to take a break?
THE COURT: Yeah. I think s o * All right.

We'll take a 15-minute break.
(Recess had at 10:31 a.m.)

(Reconvened at 1 0 : 5 0 a.m.)
THE COURT: Proceed.
Q ( B y Attorney Fallon) All right. Doctor, I

believe we left off w i t h discussion of t h e
parietal d e f e c t . We're going to go to the next
exhibit. See what is being p r o j e c t e d now as
Exhibit 1 9 4 ?
A Yes,, s i r .
Q All r i g h t . A n d what is, uh, depicted in E x h i b i t
194?
A We are looking at the, uh, b a c k of a skull. Uh, the
back of a computer-generated, uh, skeleton. Urn, and
f o c u s i n g on, this time, n o t the parietal bone on the
left side of the skull, but the bone at the lower
back of t h e skull, c a l l e d t h e occipital bone, and, in
particular, the approximate area of the second

internally beveled d e f e c t .
Q A 1 1 right. Uh, next? Should be, I b e l i e v e ,

Exhibit, urn, 1 3 8 ? Is t h a t t h e n e x t one in line?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay. E x h i b i t 1 3 8 , do you r e c o g n i z e that?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q What is E x h i b i t 1 3 8 ?
A We a r e l o o k i n g at, urn, one of t e n x - r a y s that was
t a k e n o n November 1 7 of 2005, depicting two of the
left parietal bones. And, i n p a r t i c u l a r , urn, the --

the fragment t h a t showed the i n i t i a l , urn, u n n a t u r a l
defect, uh, and the presence of four d i f f e r e n t

r a d i o p a q u e areas, urn, small particles that are white
in color.
There's one here, right within and
a d j a c e n t to this cratering. Again, t h e s e are t h e

vessels t h a t t e l l m e t h a t t h i s i s t h e inside of
the s k u l l .
Here's another one of those bright white
flecks. And there a r e two others. O n e is right
here, and one j u s t below it. And these f l e c k s
show up as bright white l i k e this because they,
uh -- t h e x-rays cannot p e n e t r a t e them or pass
through them like they can w i t h the remainder of
the bone.
Q All right. Now, urn, Mr. Olson from the Crime Lab
has advised us that, urn, h i s f i n d i n g s were that
they were, urn, uh, i n this particular exhibit,
traces of elemental lead. My question f o r you,
as a forensic anthropologist, is that a naturally
occurring phenomenon in human skull tissue to
your knowledge?
A It is absolutely not a naturally occurring d e f e c t and
something I would never expect to see in bone that
had n o t sustained a g u n s h o t wound.
Q All right. Uh, y o u r next e x h i b i t , then, is which

one, please? One t h i r t y - n i n e , I believe?
A One thirty-nine, y e s .
Q All right. Directing your attention, then, to

Exhibit 139, a n d , in particular, the, urn,
fragment -- There are eight fragments. Your
a t t e n t i o n is directed to the fragment on the

u p p e r l e f t - h a n d corner. Urn, that fragment t h a t
you have now c i r c l e d , what is it that we're
l o o k i n g at t h e r e ?
R This particular fragment is yet a n o t h e r fragment,
t h a t occipital bone fragment, the fragment from t h e
back of the skuLl, that also shows a n internally

beveled defect. And i n this case, a d j a c e n t to and
within that d e f e c t , a r e a m i n i m u m o f t e n d i f f e r e n t ,
urn, areas, um, particles of -- of this bright white
again, which, urn, is of a s u b s t a n c e different than
the surrounding bone, radiopaque, in t h a t the x-rays

c a n n o t p a s s t h r o u g h them.
Q And, urn, i s -- You said t h a t w a s t a k e n on

November 1 7 , 2 0 0 5 . Is that before you began
your, uh, ref -- your c r a n i a l r e f i t , urn, efforts?
A Yes, it is, sir.
Q Okay. And j u s t so t h a t we're c l e a r , urn, is t h a t
the inside or the outside of the o c c i p i t a l bone
at the back of t h e skull that's being depicted?

A Urn, I d o n o t know because I do n o t believe the
r a d i o l o g y t e c h n i c i a n who took this image indicated
w h e t h e r it w a s a n a n t e r i o r , f r o n t , o r p o s t e r i o r ,
back, image. From what direction she was taking t h e
image.
Q V e r y well. Urn, next, please? S h o u l d be, J

believe, Exhibit --
The last exhibit 1 have before me is Exhibit 195.
Okay. Very good. Now, urn, I'm going to leave

t h a t on t h e screen for a moment and ask a f e w
preliminary questions. Do the presence of t h e

radiopaque, these impenetrable f l e c k s , as it
were, are they supportive, in your mind, of your
diagnosis t h a t , uh -- t h a t t h e manner o f death is
homicidal violence?
Absolutely, y e s .
And why is that, Doctor?
These non-naturally occurring particles that have
been identified by the Crime Lab as having, urn, lead
content are not -- would never be seen i n bone that
had not been subjected, urn, to uh, gunshot trauma.

All right. Now, of interest, I think, to many of
u s , uh, i s t h i s : I s there a n y way for you
determ -- f o r you to determine, based on your
examination of the remains, which e n t r y defect,
the p a r i e t a l or the occipital, came first?

No, s i r , I c a n n o t m a k e that determination.
However, were you able to determine whether these
exist -- these defects e x i s t e d p r i o r to them
being s u b j e c t e d to t h e burning episode or a f t e r ?
Yes, a b s o l u t e l y , I could make that determination.

And -- and what could you determine? What is
your opinion?
As I examined these fragments, it was clear to me
that, uh, t h e i r edges were similar i n color to the
burning o f the rest of the bone. And what that tells

me is that these edges, urn, these fragments, the bone
was fragmented with the edges exposed a t the time it

was exposed to fire.
Now, were there o t h e r human remains in this case
t h a t were examined that were not of the
cranial -- not from the cranial a r e a ?
Yes, sir.
All r i g h t . And, uh, we have what is depicted on
the screen as Exhibit No. 1 9 5 ?
Yes, sir.
And, urn, first of all, ex -- would you be so kind

as to e x p l a i n the phrase postcranial findings?
P o s t c r a n i a l simply means anything below the head or
the skull.
And in terms of, urn, your examination of t h e
remains here, urn, what o t h e r , uh, cran -- uh,
postcranial remains were i d e n t i f i e d to you a s
coming from the b u r n pit behind Steven Avery's
garage?
V i r t u a l l y , urn, every other bone in the body w a s

I
represented by a t Least one fragment, and in some --
in some cases, many more fragments. And what we see
d e p i c t e d here on t h i s graphic, urn, a r e a r e a s of t h e
body from w h i c h I was a b l e to i d e n t i f y one o r more
fragments, or entire bones, that could be
definitively, definitely, identified as to their

origin.
For example, the clavicle or collarbone,
or, um, the, urn, metacarpals. The hand bone. Or
the vertebrae. Parts of the spine.
Q Are all the remains consistent with that of a n

adult female?
A N o t every bone in t h e body w i l l allow you to m a k e a
determination of age and/or s e x , but the fragments

that were diagnostic or held that information for me
to look at, urn, allowed me to confirm that these
remains, these fragmentary burned remains, w e r e those
of an a d u l t female.
Q All r i g h t . Now, urn, I have j u s t a f e w more

questions. D u r i n g the course of your
examination, d i d you find evidence of, urn, human
remains, urn, obtained from an area other than
the, urn, burn pit behind Steven Averyfs garage?
A Yes, s i r , I d i d ,
Q Tell us about that, please?

A There was a second location, away from the burn pit,
uh, and closer to the, urn -- what was then referred
to as the Janda -- DasseyJJanda p r o p e r t y , uh, one of
f o u r b u r n b a r r e l s contained, uh, human bone
fragments.
Q All right. And, uh, just for the b e n e f i t of t h e

jury, c a n you k i n d of tell us a little bit about
what kind of human bone fragments w e r e recovered
from t h a t a r e a ?
A Yes, sir. In, urn, t h e burn b a r r e l i d e n t i f i e d as B u r n
Barrel No. 2, t h e r e were human -- burned human bone

fragments from the spine, from the s h o u l d e r blade, or
what we call the scapula, a possible hand bone
fragment, what we c a l l a metacarpal, urn, and
fragments of long bones t h a t could have been, u h ,

from leg bones or from arm bones.
Q I'm g o i n g to show you one, urn, other exhibit

before w e conclude. I'm going to d i r e c t your
a t t e n t i o n to Exhibit -- I believe it's 150, and,
urn, do you recognize that?

A Yes, s i r , 1 do.
Q All r i g h t . And what is, m, Exhibit 150?
A One-five-zero is a portion of burned human bone, urn,
that was recovered with other smaller burned human

bone fragments and fragments of d r i e d or desiccated
human muscle t i s s u e .
Q A11 right. And is this a -- a, urn -- the
fragment that you caused to be, urn, t r a n s f e r r e d

~
to the Crime Lab f o r DNA analysis?
A T h a t is one of the fragments that I t r a n s f e r r e d to
the Federal Bureau of Investigation for DNA analysis.

Q Now, urn, in fact, there was a -- a subsequent
attempted analysis on a number of the fragments
which you were unable to i d e n t i f y , am I correct?

A There were fragments t h a t , urn -- whose origin -- I --
I knew what bone t h e y came from, u h , t h a t were sent
to the F B I , u h , DNA Lab, but because of the extent of
b u r n i n g to those bones, they were not, in m y
knowledge, able to o b t a i n , u h , a DNA signature.
Q But they did obtain a -- and the Crime Lab here

in Wisconsin did obtain a DNA analysis from some
of t h e fragments?
A I believe t h a t " correct.
Q All r i g h t . All right, Doctor, to conclude, the

o p i n i o n t h a t t h e remains were those of a n adult
female less than 30 y e a r s of age, do you hold
that opinion to a reasonable degree of scientific
certainty?
A I would qualify that, t o be consistent w i t h my

report, to say the remains were those of someone who
93
is younger than 3 0 to 35 y e a r s of age. Correct.
Q All right, And the opinion that the internal
beveling observed i n t h e l e f t parietal bone is
characteristic of a g u n s h o t or bullet e n t r a n c e
wound, do you hold that opinion to a reasonable
degree o f s c i e n t i f i c certainty?
A Yes, I do. The unnatural defect in the left temporal
a r e a of t h e s k u l l , uh, is the result of a gunshot
injury.
Q Urn, t h e opinion that the internal beveling ob --

observed i n t h e o c c i p i t a l b o n e , l e f t of t h e
midline, i s characteristic of a gunshot or bullet
e n t r a n c e wound, do you h o l d that opinion to a
reasonable degree of s c i e n t i f i c certainty?
A Yes, s i r , I do.
Q The o p i n i o n that t h e internal beveling, observed
i n the left parietal bone and in the occipital
bone, o c c u r r e d , urn, before the b u r n i n g episode?
A Yes,
'
Q Do you hold t h a t o p i n i o n t o a reasonable degree
of s c i e n t i f i c c e r t a i n t y ?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q And, finally, your opinion that the manner of
death for this person was homicidal violence, do

you h o l d that opinion to a r e a s o n a b l e degree of
scientific c e r t a i n t y ?
Yes, s i r , I do.
ATTORNEY FALLON: We'd, urn, move into
evidence, urn, t h e exhibits identified by Doctor
Eisenberg. I believe they are E x h i b i t s , wh, 183
through 195, and Exhibit 199.

THE COURT: Counsel, a n y o b j e c t i o n ?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Would tender the
witness f o r cross.
THE COURT: They're received. You may
cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q Doctor, I j u s t have a few questions for you. Urn,
no questions a b o u t your qualifications. I wanted

to ask you a b o u t the box of items that were
p r o v i d e d to you to, uh, view. The box of bone

fragments. You recall that testimony e a r l i e r and
t h e p i c t u r e of the box that you received to go
through?
A Yes, s i r . That was t h e f i r s t of 50 containers, urn,
t h a t I received to, as you say, go t h r o u g h , It w a s
identified as Evidence Tag No. 8318. That's correct.
Q Okay. Now, the bones were a11 as t h e p i c t u r e

depicted? That wauld be how you received it?
No. At the time I received it, the box was c l o s e d
and s e a l e d w i t h evidence tape.
When you opened it, that's how you observed the
bones ?
Yes, sir,
They weren't individually packaged within the
box?
No, sir.
Okay. D i d you receive any individually packaged
bones along with that box?
In t h a t box, and as we a l l saw in that p h o t o , there

was a c l e a r p l a s t i c bag t h a t contained, urn, some
items that had been segregated from all of the items ,
t h a t were c o l l e c t e d i n t h a t box.
Now, you indicated that t h e manner of d e a t h was
homicidal violence? Specifically, gunshot;

correct?
I -- In terms of my determination of manner of death,
yes, homicidal violence would be considered the

manner of death. There was e v i d e n c e f o r two d i s c r e t e
gunshot wounds, and, uh, the extreme fragmentation
a n d b u r n i n g of the body, urn, was part of the process
in my opinion.
In regards, specifically, t o the two gunshot

wounds, based on b e v e l i n g and the -- the two
skull fracture fragments you received? Correct?
That's where you came up with that determination

or opinion?
A That is correct, s i r .
Q You were able to d e t e r m i n e that -- from your

testimony, I understand it, that the -- t h o s e
s k u l l , urn, defects c o u l d not have occurred during
the b u r n i n g process?
A T h a t is c o r r e c t .
Q Would have to have occurred p r i o r t o t h e b u r n i n g

process?
A Yes, sir.
Q But would you agree there is no evidence, at

l e a s t from what you have testified to so f a r ,
that indicates that the individual was alive at
the time of the two, uh, g u n s h o t wounds?

A I cannot make that determination. That's not w i t h i n
my f i e l d of expertise.
Q So when you s a y this is the manner of d e a t h , it's

more of a e d u c a t e d guesstimate versus an exact
determination?
A Well, I am n o t a medical doctor, s i r , but based on my
experience, and having, urn, examined other cases t h a t
show these c h a r a c t e r i s t i c signatures of g u n s h o t

wounds, urn, it" my opinion that, um, it certainly
would have contributed to the cause of death.
Q If the p e r s o n w e r e alive p r i o r to the gunshots --

A Yes, s i r .
Q -- c o r r e c t ? Okay. Were you, urn, present during

the second -- t h e b u r n -- The f o u r b u r n barrels
you testified to, were you present during, uh,

the sifting of t h o s e burn barrels?
A To my knowledge, I w a s not. Although, uh, 3 would
like to -- to qualify that answer by saying that I
did have, uh, occasion, on two s e p a r a t e occasions, to
reexamine material that may have originated from any
one of those f o u r b u r n barrels.
Q Okay. That's all. Thank you.

A Thank you, sir,
THE COURT: Any redirect, Counsel?
ATTORNEY FALLON : No redirect.
THE COURT: You may s t e p down.
THE COURT: You're welcome.

ATTORNEY FALLON: I believe there's a,
uh, trial stipulation?
THE COURT: There is. There's an
additional trial stipulation. Ladies and gentlemen
of the jury, I remind you what I told you earlier

this morning about stipulations. They are evidence.
I'm going to read t h e following as a trial
stipulation:
Number one. Dr. J e f f r e y J e n t z e n i s the
Chief Medical Examiner for Milwaukee County,
Wisconsin, and i s a board c e r t i f i e d forensic
pathologist. Dr. J e n t z e n agreed to be a medical

consultant in this case and offered expert
opinion as to the manner and cause of death of
Teresa Halbach,
Number t w o . That if c a l l e d to testify,
Dr. Jentzen would state that after consultation

with forensic anthropologist, Dr. Leslie
Eisenberg, he reviewed r e p o r t s , photographs,

x-rays, bone fragments, and other materials
surrounding the Teresa Halbach death

investigation.
Dr. Jentzen would testify that in h i s
expert opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical
certainty, the manner of death of Teresa Halbach

was homicide, and t h e cause of death w a s g u n s h o t
wounds to the head.
To the prosecution, is that your

stipulation?
ATTORNEY FALLON: It -- It is.

THE COURT: To t h e defense?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes.
THE COURT: It will be marked as
E x h i b i t --
(Exhibit No. 2 0 0 marked f o r identification.)
THE CLERK: Two hundred.
THE COURT: E x h i b i t No. 200. You have
an additional witness?
ATTORNEY FALLON: I -- I t h i n k we -- we
c a n start. We will not f i n i s h .

THE COURT: All r i g h t , Please start.
ATTORNEY FALLON: S t a t e at this time
would call Detective Anthony O'Neill. It may
take us a moment to s e t up.

THE COURT: That's fine. J u s t come here,
remain s t a n d i n g , a n d t a k e t h e o a t h , p l e a s e .
ANTHONY O'NEfLL,
called as a w i t n e s s h e r e i n , h a v i n g been first duly

sworn, was examined a n d t e s t i f i e d as follows:
THE CLERK: Please be s e a t e d . Please state

your name and spell your last name for the record.
THE WITNESS: Anthony John OfNeill,
0'-N-e-i-1-1.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
100
While we're, urn -- While we're setting up here,
I'll ask some preliminary questions. For whom
are you employed, sir?
The Marinette County Sheriff's Department.
And, urn, how long have you been employed at the
Marinette County Sheriff's Department?
Approximately 18 years.
And in what capacity are you currently employed?
A detective.
And how long have you been a detective, sir?
Since 1998.
And during your time as a detective, have you
been asked to i n t e r v i e w b o t h witnesses and

suspects in your capacity as a detective with the
Sheriff's Department?
Yes, I have.
And, urn, uh, during the course of your, uh, time
at the Marinette County Sheriff's Department,

have you participated in homicide investigations?
Yes, I have.
Approximately how many investigations, uh --

homicide investigations have you been involved
in?
I'd s a y a b o u t eight.
All r i g h t . And in terms of general investigative
experience, urn, how -- how -- hew many
investigations? Any reference?
A It's the b u l k of m y j o b .
Q Okay. Fair enough. Urn, I'd l i k e to d i r e c t your

attention to a particular day, and that would be,
Sunday, November 6 , 2005, shortly before noon,

On that day, urn, did you have occasion to assist
the Calumet County Sheriff's Department, and the
Wisconsin Department of Justice investigation
involving t h e missing person o f Teresa Halbach?

A Yes, I did.
Q And, f i r s t of all, tell us how you became
involved?
A On the previous day, uh, our o f f i c e was contacted by
the Calumet County Sheriff's Department and asked to
assist them in s p e a k i n g to t h e Avery family. The
family maintains a p r o p e r t y in Town of Stephenson in

Marinette C o u n t y .
Uh, our understanding was that the Avery
family was at t h a t p r o p e r t y and, uh, Teresa

Halbach would have been at the Avery p r o p e r t y in
Manitowoc County previous to coming up t h e r e , a n d
s h e w a s reported as a missing person.
Q A11 r i g h t . And, urn, who, if anyone else, from

your Department was involved i n assisting t h e
Department of Justice and Calumet County S h e r i f f ?
A Primarily m y s e l f . Uh, Detective Todd Baldwin, uh,
Sergeant Michael S i e g e r t (phonetic) and some patrol
officers as well.
Q All right, And, a g a i n , urn, p a r t i c u l a r l y with
r e s p e c t t o the, urn, l a t e morning, almost noon
h o u r , w h a t role were you asked t o , urn, fulfill by
t h e Department of J u s t i c e and Calumet C o u n t y
Sheriff?
A Uh, we had a r r i v e d at the Avery p r o p e r t y a little

e a r l i e r i n t h e d a y , and, uh, completed some of t h e
interviews t h a t we s t a r t e d the day b e f o r e . Urn, we
were a l s o , in preparation o f a n -- or anticipating a
search w a r r a n t f o r the, u h , two v e h i c l e s that were

located a t t h e Avery p r o p e r t y .
Q A l l right. Now, i t might be o f some h e l p if you
kind of d i r e c t t h a t microphone a little b i t
closer to your -- your mouth, or maybe t i p it up

a l i t t l e , I guess.
A Okay. Is that better?
Q Yep. Yeah, that's b e t t e r . Maybe the end -- Just
straighten the e n d o u t . There you go. That
s h o u l d do i t . A l l right. Urn, what were you
asked to do?
A Urn, we were asked t o s t a n d by the Avery p r o p e r t y in

anticipation of a search w a r r a n t b e i n g completed.
A11 r i g h t . And w h a t kind of, urn -- What was
being -- What was the o b j e c t of t h e search?
Uh, t h e seizure o f , uh, Steven Avery's P o n t i a c Grand

Rm, I believe it was, and a l s o t h e , uh, Avery Auto
Salvage f l a t b e d t o w i n g v e h i c l e that was a t that
p r o p e r t y in the town of S t e p h e n s o n .
All right. And, urn, who e l s e , urn, in addition to
members, of the Marinette Sheriff's Department,

uh, were present to assist in the execution of
the warrant?
Uh, a l s o with us was a Department of J u s t i c e special
agent, K i m S k o r l i n s k i .
All r i g h t . Uh, did there come a time w h e r e you
e x e c u t e d , urn, t h e search warrant and seized the,
urn, vehicle in question?
Uh, y e s . The vehicle a c t u a l l y left t h e premises with

two occupants and, uh, we subsequently stepped the
vehicle in anticipation of t h e search warrant and

seized t h e vehicle.
All r i g h t . And, urn, who were t h e occupants of
the vehicle at the time of your seizure?
Uh, t h e driver of the v e h i c l e would have been, urn,
B r y a n Dassey, and the passenger would have been
Brendan Dassey.
All right. And the passenger, Brendan Dassey,
urn, do you recognize h i m a s being present i n the
courtroom t o d a y ?
Uh, yes, I do.
And would you briefly point out where he i s
seated for t h e b e n e f i t of, urn, C o u r t a n d j u r y ?
Uh, M r . Dassey's seated to t h e left of your -- of me,
w e a r i n g a white, long-sleeved shirt, uh, p a i r of
glasses, dark-colored p a n t s , and I b e l i e v e a p a i r of

sneakers.
All right.
ATTORNEY FALEON: The record reflect the
witness has identified the accused?
THE COURT: So reflect.

(By Attorney Fallon) What happened when you
stopped the vehicle w i t h t h e t w o , u h , passengers?
The d e f e n d a n t and his b r o t h e r ?
When I approached the vehicle, I intro -- i n t r o d u c e d

myself t o t h e d r i v e r , and a l , M r . -- also,
Mr. Dassey. Urn, stated for them we had a search

w a r r a n t for the v e h i c l e , and that w e needed them to
exit the vehicle, and that we would, uh, provide them
a side back to the Avery p r o p e r t y .
Now, at that p a r t i c u l a r p o i n t , did you, urn,

d e c i d e to interview either one of t h e o c c u p a n t s
of t h e vehicle?
A Urn, yes.
Q What did you do?

A Uh, I asked M r . D a s s e y i f h e ' d be willing to talk to
me in my vehicle, and he told me that he was n o t
under arrest, free t o leave a t a n y t i m e . And, u h --

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Can we identify
which --
THE COURT: R i g h t .
ATTORNEY FALLON: We'll g e t t h e r e .
THE COURT: Well, have him i d e n t i f y
which Mr. Dassey.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I was j u s t about to do
that,
THE COURT: Okay.
Q ( B y A t t o r n e y Fallon) Urn, since there are t w o

Dassey's here, if -- if you would refer to them
both by their f i r s t and last name, that would
h e l p , okay?
A Yes.
Q Urn, d i d you, urn, i n t e r v i e w either one or both of
them?
A I interviewed Brendan Dassey.

Q All. r i g h t . And who, i f a n y o n e e l s e , p a r t i c i p a t e d
i n the interview of Brendan Dassey?
A D e t e c t i v e Todd Baldwin.
Q All right. And, urn, while you were i n t e r v i e w i n g

Brendan Dassey, uh, what was going on w i t h B r y a n
Dassey, if you know?
A Uh, Bryan Dassey was being interviewed by Agent S k i m
(sic) S k o r l i n s k i and his p a r t n e r .
Q Urn, where did the i n t e r v i e w o f t h e d e f e n d a n t ,
Brendan Dassey, take place?
A In my unmarked police car.

Q All right. Now, urn, during the course of, uh,
uh -- Well, let's ask it this way. Approximately
how l o n g or how much time d i d you spend -- you
and/or Detective Baldwin spend -- interviewing,
uh, Brendan Dassey?
A I believe it was j u s t over -- a little b i t over a n
hour.
Q And d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e of the interview, w a s
there, uh, free give and take between the
participants in the conversation?
A Uh, y e s , there was.
Q ALL right. And at any p o i n t d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e of

your conversation, your interview of the
defendant, Brendan Dassey, d i d he ask you to,
urn -- to Leave?
A No.
107
All right. Did he a s k or make a n y other requests
of you during the course of the interview that
you r e c a l l ?
No, he d i d n o t .
All right. Urn, d u r i n g the course of t h e
i n t e r v i e w , d i d he r e f u s e or decline to answer a n y
of your questions?
No, he did not.
All right. Now, urn, this interview, was it
recorded in any way?
Yes, it was.
All right. Tell us about what recording device

and how that came to pass?
Uh, in my car I have a d i g i t a l a u d i o recorder. It's

j u s t a small pocket one. And, uh, uh, d u r i n g the
i n t e r v i e w , i t was i n the record position, and, uh,
once it was recorded, I, uh, archived it to o u r
department computer, and, uh, subsequent1 y s e n t , urn,

to the district attorney, a copy of that audio f i l e .
Actually, two audio f i l e s .
A l l right. N o w , urn, let me a s k you this: Where,

in the vehicle, was your recorder?
It was in my visor. I have a visor caddy, s o it's

placed up there.
All right. And, urn, who sat in t h e , urn -- the

f r o n t seat of t h e car?
I s a t in the driver" seatt, Detective Baldwin in t h e
passenger f r o n t .
All right. And where d i d Mr. Dassey s i t ?
Uh, Brendan sat in the back s e a t passenger side.
All right, Now, urn, during the course of this,

was -- or -- did Mr. Dassey, urn, audibly respond
to all of your questions?
For t h e majority, y e s , b u t h e ' s a very much nonverbal
xesponder as well.
All right. So what type of nonverbal responses
o r cues were you receiving f r o m him during the
c o u r s e of the interview?
Uh, sometimes he'd go, urn-hmm. In that sense, not an

affirmative, yes or no. O r a , ugh-ugh. And t h e n ,
uh, those were the r e s p o n s e s that were outside, y e s
or no, or any explanation, but then we a l s o Look a t
nonverbal-type r e s p o n s e s as well.
All r i g h t . And did you receive, urn, uh, from
time to time, nonverbal responses during t h e
c o u r s e of this?
Uh, v e r y much s o .
All right. And, um, thus, the recording that,
uh, we're about to p l a y does n o t , urn, contain all
of the -- therets no know way of capturing the

nonverbal r e s p o n s e s ?
A That's c o r r e c t .
Q All right. Urn, d u r i n g the c o u r s e of this, urn,
i n t e r v i e w , did you promise Mr. Dassey anything in
an effort to g e t h i m to, urn, t a l k to you?
A Not a t all.
Q Very well.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, Your Honor, at
t h i s time I guess we would, urn, b e g i n to p l a y the
interview, recognizing that it -- it may go, and

will go, longer than 12:OO. So do you have a n
idea as to when you'd l i k e us to -- Yeah. We do
have -- T h e r e is t w o parts to it, so we might be
able to take a break at the e n d of part one.
THE COURT: How long is part one?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Probably about a h a l f
an hour.
THE COURT: Okay. Then let's do that.
ATTORNEY FALLON: A11 r i g h t .
THE COURT: Start the p l a y i n g , and
we'll -- w e q l cut out after part o n e ,
ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay. Very well.
THE COURT: All right. Do you w a n t this
taken by the r e -- by t h e reporter?
ATTORNEY KFATZ: No. We a c t u a l l y have a
110
copy for t h e C o u r t , Judge. I -- I don't have any
objection to --
THE COURT: I --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- the --
THE COURT: Counsel?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- reporter not taking
it.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: J u s t one moment.
THE COURT: While they're talking, is
there a transcript as well?
ATTORNEY FALLON: I believe we have a --

this is a closed caption, so it will be a -- a
r e a d - a l o n g or follow-along --
THE COURT: I -- I -- I understand that.

But i s there a separate trans -- Has someone
transcribed this?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: W e can check, Judge.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, I don't
believe it would be necessary f o r t h e rep -- I
don't believe it would be necessary for the
reporter to, uh, take this portion down so l o n g
as it consists s o l e l y of t h e audio, urn, that t h i s

witness has described, and we're n o t stopping and
starting for questions of the witness.
THE COURT: And -- and is that, uh --

Mr. Fallon, is t h a t w h a t you intend to do? To -- to
play this completely?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Yes. We're
g o i n g to p l a y this one, uh, at least, urn, I would

I
say, pretty much all t h e way through and t h e n
we'll have some follow-up questions for Detective

O'NeiL1, and, perhaps, f o r Detective Baldwin, as
well, and tender them f o r cross. Urn, Counsel is
p r o v i d i n g me -- We do have a, urn -- a t y p e d
transcript that we could u t i l i z e as an exhibit,
o r our preference was simply g o i n g to be to mark,

uh, t h e audio copy as the official record and --
THE COURT: All right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: -- use t h a t as a n
exhibit.
THE COURT: Any objection to doing that,
Counsel?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: None.
THE COURT: Marking the audio copy?

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine.
THE COURT: Or the CD?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Right.
THE COURT: Okay. T h a t , then, would be
Exhibit 201?
THE CLERK: It will. Urn-hmm.
112
(Wherein CD is p l a y e d . )
(Wherein CD is stopped.)
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: May we approach?

(Discussion o f f the record.)
THE COURT: All right. Proceed.
(Wherein p l a y i n g of CD continues.)
THE COURT: Is that the first disk?
ATTORNEY FALLON: That's the first h a l f ,
or -- We're about halfway through, s o it p r o b a b l y
would be a good time.

THE COURT: Sure. Uh, we'll b r e a k f o r
lunch. We'll be back here at 1;15. Ladies a n d
gentlemen, 1'11 remind you, don't t a l k a b o u t this
among yourselves o r with anyone else. We'll see you

at 1 : 1 5 .
(Reconvened a t 1:10 p . m . ; jurors not
present. )
THE COURT: B e f o r e we have the j u r y back
here, it's my understanding, uh, Mr. EdeLstein, t h a t
you w i s h to p u t some matters on the reeord?

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor.
Thank you. Urn, not l o n g a f t e r t h e last w i t n e s s ,
uh, Detective O q e i l l , took the s t a n d and the
Government s t a r t e d p l a y i n g an a u d i o of an
interview of November 6, 2005, we did have a
bench c o n f e r e n c e and, f o r the record, I'm a s k i n g
the Court to memorialize that. Urn, weld have an
objection to the visual display of the closed
captioning with t h e highlighting of the line
purportedly being broadcast, uh, through the
audio, being highlighted in a very bright yellow.
Urn, as the Court I'm sure is aware, the
courtroom is set up w i t h these monitors. I think

everybody could agree t h a t the j u r y is pretty
much split down the middle, some looking to the
left, some looking to the right, in o r d e r to t r y
to follow a l o n g .
The only g r a p h i c on t h e screen is, in
fact, I believe a c l o c k timer showing t h e

d u r a t i o n of the playing of the recording, as well
as the closed caption, if you will. But it does
contain the highlighted yellow p o r t i o n .

It's, specifically, to the yellow
portion, that we o b j e c t . I believe it places an

undue emphasis on the printed word as opposed to
t h e spoken word, w h i c h is r e a l l y t h e place t h e
jury should be focusing, not on somebody else's
transcription of what they believe to be the
conversation to be.
And, f o r that reason, we have objected,
and do c o n t i n u e to object, to the yellow
highlighting. We have no objection to the
display of the rendition, urn, particularly if t h e
C o u r t were to give t h e instruction, I believe,
t h e p a r t i e s have agreed upon.
THE COURT: Before I ask for a response
f r o m you, A t t o r n e y F a l l o n , uh, I think what
Mr. Edelstein has said a c c u r a t e l y summarizes his
objection raised a t a bench c o n f e r e n c e . To p u t it

in a little c o n t e x t , uh, the yellow highlighter t h a t
he is referring t o , moves down t h e printed t e x t that
appears on a screen, and, uh, it does -- excuse
me -- it d i d does so, uh, i n a m a n n e r t h a t -- that
follows i n a -- in a rough way, in an approximate

way, the s p o k e n , uh, matter that comes over the --
t h e a u d i o p o r t i o n of t h e , uh -- uh, of t h e tape.
Now, Mr. F a l l o n .
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Thank you,
Judge. Urn, I understand Counsel's concern, but,

urn, I guess I have t w o p r a c t i c a l responses. Urn,
first and foremost, I don't believe -- and this

is, of course, a judgment call on the part of the
Court -- b u t , urn, I don't believe that t h e

highlighting necessarily, urn, overemphasizes the
particular line which is b e i n g broadcast or
spoken at that very moment.
In fact, the whole idea for the

captioning and the y e l l o w l i n e i s t o try as best
as possible to s y n c together the a u d i o , uh,
words, w i t h t h e written word, and, t h u s , make it
I
easier to f o l l o w , especially, I m i g h t add, in a
case where one of the participants in t h e
conversation i s a v e r y s o f t - s p o k e n i n d i v i d u a l ,
and there is some distance between that
individual and the recording device,

Urn, so in t h a t regard, I do n o t believe
that it overemphasizes this, because it's a
momentary thing, and a s t h e y e l l o w l i n e , o r
highlighter, o r c u r s o r , f o l l o w s t h e conversation,
in -- in -- i n that regard, so I don't think it's
an overemphasis.
Secondly, and, uh, e q u a l l y important,
if -- or, if not, more s o , is the fact that

there -- there is a n in -- instruction that we've
agreed on. Urn, Counsel has, uh, w r i t t e n it up,
C o u n s e l for t h e defense, and -- and I would
e n c o u r a g e the C o u r t , uh, t o read the i n s t r u c t i o n ,
u h , t o t h e j u r y at each and every p o i n t that
we're going to play one of these, urn, a u d i o
116
recordings, whether they are closed captioned or
not, because t h e instruction is, and we're a l l --
I t h i n k a l l the a t t o r n e y s are in agreement that
the law is that the jury must first rely and
trust the spoken word rather than the written

word, if there's some incongruence, and I -- I
think that would take care of the matter.
THE COURT: Presumably, what you have in
your hand is the instruction?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes.
THE COURT: Why don't you bring it up here.
All right. And Mr. Edelstein, you've agreed to this
instruction?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I a c t u a l l y drafted

the instruction, Judge.
THE COURT: Presumably, that means you

agree?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, we do.
THE COURT: A l l right. All r i g h t . The
C o u r t is going to find j u s t , uh -- j u s t as -- for
t h e record here, that the yellow highlighter, I
believe, to be an -- a -- an -- an assist to the
trier of fact in t h i s case- That some p o r t i o n s of
the a u d i o are, uh, seemingly, disjunctive in t h a t

one of t h e participants is i n the backseat of the
117
car, two of them are in the f r o n t s e a t of t h e c a r .
There -- there isn't, uh, p e r f e c t timing in doing
this.
The yellow highlighter, uh -- t h e yellow
highlighter brings to the -- the screen the
attention of the listener exactly what is being
said, and Court finds that to be a n a s s i s t to the
j u r y , which is the t r i e r of fact, without
depreciating from either the value or the n u a n c e
of any of the -- o r nuances of a n y of the words

t h a t are -- a r e b e i n g spoken.
With that s a i d , however, I will, u h , at
the, apparently, joint request of c o u n s e l , read
to the -- t h e j u r o r s each time that we -- we
undertake e i t h e r a n a u d i o o r a a u d i o v i s u a l , u h ,
t h i s particular i n s t r u c t i o n .
All r i g h t . Anything e l s e before we

b r i n g the j u r y back in?
ATTORNEY FALLON: No. Uh, I would
i n d i c a t e t h a t we'll be, u h , resuming with, uh,
Detective O W e i l l . I w i l l ask him, oh, probably

a half dozen or s o questions r i g h t now j u s t to
break things up, and then we'll p l a y the balance
of, uh, this interview, and thereqll be a few
more questions, and then Mr. EdeL -- Edelstein
118
will c r o s s .
THE COURT: All right. D e t e c t i v e , why
don't you come back up here. Let's g e t the j u r y

back in. 1'11 i n s t r u c t them, and then you may
proceed.
ATTORNEY FALLOW: Thank you.

(Jurors in at 1:19 p . m . )
THE COURT: Be seated. We're s e t to
proceed this afternoon. Before we do, uh, ladies
and gentlemen, I've been asked, and have a g r e e d , to
read this i n s t r u c t i o n to you.
Closed captioned t r a n s c r i p t s have been
added to the a u d i o t a p e that you-e listening to.
I f you believe in listening to the audio

concurrently w h i l e r e a d i n g t h e closed c a p t i o n e d
words, that t h e r e is a v a r i a t i o n between the

audio and t h e closed caption, you are to r e l y
solely an the a u d i o , A11 right. You may begin.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes.

Q Before we b e g i n with part two of the interview,
uh, Detective, 1 wonder if you could answer a
couple of questions and p u t things in perspective
f o r us? Urn, f i r s t of a l l , a -- on November 6,

this i n t e r v i e w is i n d i c a t e d d u r i n g t h e noon hour,
urn, there seems to be a -- a fair amount of, urn,
in and out of the car by yourself and Detective
Baldwin, Can you e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t ' s g o i n g on?
A Uh, during the interview, I was conferring with, uh,
S p e c i a l Investigator S k o r l i n s k i from t h e Department
of J u s t i c e , as he was also c o n f e r r i n g with, uh,
agents that w e r e in the Manitowoc area a t t h e Avery

residence a n d the s a l v a g e y a r d .
Q And, at t h i s t i m e , uh, on November 6, how much
did you know in terms of the, u h , a d v a n c e m e n t , a s
i t were, 0 5 the investigative efforts?

A Urn, n o t much more t h a n what 1 knew the d a y b e f o r e ,
and that was v e r y minimal as well.
Q A11 r i g h t , And what was that? I mean...

A Urn, o u r initial request was for the assistance and
trying to obtain information from witnesses that had
last seen Teresa Halbach, which would have been t h e
Avery family, o r p a r t i c u l a r l y , Steven A v e r y , and
outside of t h a t , uh, we were made aware t h a t Teresa
Halbach" v e h i c l e was found in t h e A v e r y Salvage Yard
on t h a t Saturday, a s well as, I think only t h a t

S u n d a y , that t h e r e w a s a, u h -- or it was a Saturday,
a b u r n barrel that had been -- uh, some charred
pieces of e l e c t r o n i c s that were f o u n d i n s i d e of it as
well. I think t h a t information was a b o u t the only

information t h a t we had outside of Teresa Halbach
being missing.
Q All right. And so were these, urn, e n t r i e s and

e x i t s of t h e vehicle a r e efforts on the depart of
you a n d Detective Baldwin to learn more of t h e
state of the investigation?

A Uh, y e s . It was more of so to help c l a r i f y
information that we were either -- or receiving from
Brendan or, uh, not hearing.
Q All right. Now, urn, there were, uh -- One point
here, urn, there was a question that was asked of
you by t h e , urn, defendant, Mr. Dassey, urn, about
did he do it? Where did t h a t come from?
A Urn, I don 't know. I mean, it came from Mr. Dassey,

and, uh, it was k i n d of c o n f u s i n g along t h e idea t h a t
he t a l k e d a b o u t , uh, you know, do you t h i n k he raped
her? And, uh, up until that point there was never
e v e n a n y t h i n g mentioned about any t y p e o f , uh, s e x u a l
a s s a u l t , or homicide, or kidnapping, or anything,
other t h a n , uh, Teresa Halbach being at the Avery

property and missing.
Q A 1 1 sight. Very well. I t h i n k we'll, urn,

continue w i t h the presentation of the i n t e r v i e w -
(Wherein p l a y i n g of CD continues.)
(Wherein p l a y i n g of CD ends.)
(By A t t o r n e y Fallon) Detective, O V e i l l , where
were you when the -- t h e t a p e e n d s in t e r m s of
physically?
Uh, s e a t e d in the driver's s i d e of my car.
All right. And where was your vehicle? Had
B r e n d a n been r e t u r n e d y e t t o the f a m i l y , uh,
residence u p i n Crivitz? O r were you s t i l l on
t h e roadside these?
S t i l l on t h e roadside, just g e t t i n g t o r e t u r n him
back to there.
All right. And, urn, a f t e r the interview was
completed where, uh, was Brendan taken?
Uh, b a c k to the c a b i n on the Avery p r o p e r t y .
A11 r i g h t . And do you know, uh, who, urn,

p r o v i d e d t r a n s p o r t a t i o n f o r him?
I believe I did.
All right. Uh, do you know who w a s , u h , p r e s e n t ,

uh, uh, at the, uh, Avery p r o p e r t y when you, uh,
dropped him o f f ?
I don't recall.
All r i g h t . Urn, in terms of, urn, this
investigation, d i d you have an opportunity to
speak w i t h a -- a variety of -- of family people
up t h e r e ?
Yes, I d i d .
Q Generally, then, just who was there, uh, during
the days that you were assisting in t h i s
investigation?
A Uh, C h a r l e s Avery, Steven Avery, uh, h i s f a t h e r ,
whose names escapes me. Uh, h e -- that he refers to

as g r a n d p a . Uh, h i s grandmother, uh, his b r o t h e r ,
Bryan, and I believe that's all I could recall.
Q All right. Now, f i r s t of all, tell us,

g e n e r a l l y , a b o u t , urn, Mr. Dassey 3 , uh, demeanor,
uh, during the course of your interview with him?

Looks l i k e , according to t h e tape, about an hour
and twenty minutes t o t a l ?
A Urn, I i n t e r v i e w a lot of people, and, uh,
Mr. Dassey's demeanor was, uh, d i f f e r e n t in that

during conversation he was almost to a p o i n t of
being, uh, engaged when he wanted to be and
disengaged when he didn't w a n t to be. J u s t as what
I'm observing a lot today,
Q All right.
A Urn, if it was a -- if it was something that we were
t a l k i n g about t h a t he was okay to talk a b o u t , he was
a c t i v e l y engaged. He'd tell you about it, bang,
bang, bang, and move on.

When it came to specifics r e g a r d i n g
Teresa Halbach, Steven Avery, what happened on

that day, he wasnY as engaged, and h e went into
a inner struggle, physically, He'd sit there,
head down, withdrawn, motionless, a n s w e r s w o u l d

be muffled. Uh, t o t a l l y contrary to what he
chose t o be involved w i t h or engaged with.
It was h i s demeanor t h a t I felt, from
a l l the y e a r s of training and experience I % e had
w i t h dealing w i t h p e o p l e , an i n n e r struggle, a
conflict. He was hiding something. It was not
g o i n g be a ten-minute interview as to what he
saw, There was something more.
Q In speaking that, in terms of j u s t , generally,
the -- the amount of information that you were
able to obtain from, urn, Mr. Dassey, I mean,

o r d i n a r i l y , how much -- if -- if someone was
freely to give that information, how long would
this interview have taken?
A From what, in t o t a l i t y , he had t o l d -- he had t o l d
us, or wanted us to believe, as f a r as his time in --

in being there, seeing Teresa Halbach, seeing
interaction between her and Steven Avery, it s h o u l d
have taken us t e n minutes.
Q All s i g h t . H o w l o n g did t h e interview of, uh,
t h e other b r o t h e r last?
A Not long at all. He was in and out of the car with

Agent S k o r l i n s k i , uh, way b e f o r e , uh, B r e n d a n .
Q A l l right. Now, there -- there w a s some
discussion about him being choked up, and
sweating, and things of that s o r t . Tell us about

that?
A Well, physically, you know, he even mentioned about

his eyes watering. I mean, we're a l l t h r e e sitting
in the car. It's November. And, of course, I got in
and out of the car a lot. But he's in the backseat
sweating like c r a z y , and 1 t h i n k even the o t h e r
o f f i c e r n o t i c e d that as well.
Uh, his body posture, his body language.
Just as I'm sitting here w i t h you t o d a y in the
openness. I mean, h i s was j u s t totally

different. And, you know, from what I've seen in
my experience, it was that t h a t would, uh,
suggest to me that there's something t h e r e .
Wh --
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, I believe
we've marked t h a t , urn, CD. Does -- Roberta, do
you have that?

THE CLERK: Yes.
ATTORNEY FALLON: That's Exhibit 201?
THE CLERK: Yep.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Uh, we would move into

evidence Exhibit 201. Uh, if the C o u r t or
Counsel d e s i r e s , we can provide a written
transcript to accompanying it, and maybe make it
208-A, if there's a need. B u t , otherwise, we
would move into evidence Exhibit 2 0 1 and tender
the witness for cross.

THE COURT: Uh, Counsel, any objection?
Other than that previously n o t e d ?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: As to the
transcript, Your Honor, I would -- As to the
transcript, uh, I would at this time, uh, s u b j e c t
to, perhaps, some agreed upon c o r r e c t i o n s , no
objection to the d i s k , itself.

THE COURT: A l l right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: That" fZne. I
THE COURT: Okay. It's received. Uh, you

I
may cross.
CROSS-EXAMIHATION
BY ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN:
Q Detective O'Neill, you spent about a n h o u r and

t w e n t y minutes w i t h Brendan during the course o f
this contact on the 6th of November; correct?
A I W have to take a l o t out of that from being in and
o u t of t h e car, b u t , in totality, myself, Detective
Baldwin, that's correct.
'126
And S k o r l i n s k i was there as well?
For about, I think, t h e l a s t f i v e m i n u t e s , i f t h a t

w a s about r i g h t .
A l l right. T h i s had been some time back; right?
Uh, November 6.
Of what year?
Two-thousand five.
All right, 2 0 0 5 . It's a while back; right?
Yes.
Before coming to testify today, d i d you have an
opportunity to discuss w i t h anyone, urn, the --

your testimony t o help you be prepared for this
jury?
Uh, I discussed with the attorneys, uh, that I read
the transcripts, uh, some of the points that they
asked me about in the transcripts. On the way down
here, I listened t o b o t h a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s . It's a
two-hour drive f o r me. Uh, tried to bring myself up
to speed, of c o u r s e , b e c a u s e of t h e , uh -- t h e t i m e ,
and, uh, also other t h i n g s and m a t t e r s that we have

going on in Marinette County, yes.
I'm sorry? What about M a r i n e t t e ?
Other t h i n g s that w e have g o i n g on. Other cases and
so f o r t h . So I t r y to refresh myself with the

attorneys, as well as my own records. Uh, the
audios.
Q I don't want to g e t confused now. On the way --

are you t a l k i n g about on the way down here you
t a l k e d w i t h these a t t o r n e y s about things
I
happening in Marinette?
A No. Outside of your question about if I had talked

to anybody a b o u t what I was g o i n g to s a y t o d a y ?
Q Right.
A I mentioned I ' d spoke to the a t t o r n e y s today.
Q Right.
A And then, a l s o , I reviewed my n o t e s a n d the a u d i o
recordings on t h e way down here.
Q Did you speak with any of the other officers who
were involved in the investigation in this
p a r t i c u l a r case?
A I believe I spoke to Detective Baldwin.
Q Did the, uh -- Did you a n d Baldwin came down
together?
A No, s i r .
Q B u t you t a l k e d to B a l d w i n p r i o r to testifying
I
here today?
A Yes.
Q Now, you knew that the girl's name, about whom
everyone was concerned, was Teresa Halbachr

right?
128
A Yes.
Q And you k n e w t h a t t h e i n f o r r n a t i o n w a s t h a t t h e
last place s h e was s e e n was at the Avery Salvage
Yard; i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A That's how it was reported. Yes.
Q And you knew t h e d a t e t h a t she was last there;
correct?
A Yes.
Q P r i o r to s p e a k i n g with Brendan, had you spoken
with Steven Avery?
A Yes.
Q Charles Avery?
A Yes.
Q The g r a n d f a t h e r ?
A Yes.
Q Grandma?
A Yes.
Q And that was t h e r e at the cabin; right?

A Yes.
Q And that w a s actually the day b e f o r e ?
A For t h e most part, yes.
Q What do you mean the "most part"?

A I spoke to them -- S t e v e n Avery on Sunday. I believe
I spoke to his dad on Sunday. H i s mom on Sunday, as
well. I mean, there were various people I spoke to
129
-
on both dates.
Okay. But you had been in and out of t h e -- the
cabin property a number of times over at least

two days?
On t w o occasions. Yes.
Okay. Prior to talking with Brendan?

Yes.
Brendan wasn't the first o n e you t a l k e d to?
Correct,
And you were in contact w i t h , uh, agents from

DCP; right?
O n a sporadic basis, y e s .
Did you have daily contact over the c o u r s e of the
t w o d a y s w i t h , uh, S k o r l i n s k i ?
I spoke to him a couple times. Maybe f o u r .
Had -- How many times had you personally m e t w i t h
S k o r l i n s k i before you spoke to Brendan?
Twice.
And w h e r e was that?
I believe he came up on Saturday night, and I would

have met him then, a n d then, also, on Sunday morning.
P r i o r to s t o p p i n g the Pontiac and talking with
Brendan?
Yes.
And the two of you, along with others, including,

uh, Baldwin, f o r example, you k i n d of l a i d the
game plan out as far as who was going to t a l k to
which of t h e boys; right?
Urn, it w a s s p o n t a n e o u s , but we decided that we'd talk
to them since we had the opportunity, y e s .
All right. Well, the truth of the matter is, you

had the opportunity over at the cabin to t a l k to
h i m if you wanted to, didn't you?
No.
And why was t h a t ?

We were p r e t t y busy, and we just didn't get to him.
You stopped the P o n t i a c on what day of t h e w e e k ?

Sunday .
Okay. And what time d i d you do your last
interview on, urn, the day before? On Saturday?
It definitely was sunset.
It was a p r e t t y important case, isn't it?
Yes.
I don't mean to give you a hard time, but you can
work p a s t s u n s e t , can't you? You live in the

county? You know your way around?
Well, what kind of case are you referring to at the
point that I was dealing with it, s i r ?
Well, on t h a t Saturday night, you're working
w i t h , uh, what you understand to be a, urn --

c e r t a i n l y , at a v e r y minimum, a missing persons
case; right?
Uh, to my understanding and c l a r i t y that day it was a

missing p e r s o n case, y e s .
And was it important to make contact with
individuals who may have had the last c o n t a c t

with this girl?
Correct.
That's why you were there Saturday?
Yes.
And you t a l k e d w i t h a bunch of people that
S a t u r d a y , but you Left o u t -- what you're t e l l i n g
the jury, you l e f t o u t a b o u t sunset?
I believe s o , y e s .
Did you i n q u i r e on t h a t Saturday as to t h e

whereabouts of Brendan when you were at the Avery
property?
I 'm s u r e I knew he was t h e r e .
P a r d me?
T'm sure I knew he was there.
So what stopped you from t a l k i n g t o h i m on

Saturday?
Because up u n t i l t h e p o i n t of w h e r e w e g o t on Sunday
t h e r e was no need t o t a l k t o him.
So you say up to a p o i n t on Sunday. What

happened between S a t u r d a y evening and Sunday?
About 12 h o u r s .
Well, can you be a little more s p e c i f i c ? What
happened that caused you, besides the -- t h e
lapse of 12 hours time, that you deemed it
important at this p o i n t to t a l k with B r e n d a n ?

Brendan was not t h e last p e r s o n reported to see
Teresa Halbach. Let's --
Let me ask you t h i s --
-- start -- I'm trying to answer your question.

Okay. Go ahead.
Okay? W e t a l k e d to various people in t h e family, we
s p o k e -- spoke to f a m i l y members, and, basically,
gave an order of importance, and Bxendan came up on
Sunday.
When did you e x a c t l y l e a r n t h a t t h e b u s d r i v e r
r e p o r t e d p a s s i n g t h a t area at r o u g h l y 3 : 4 5 on the
31st? You knew t h a t on Saturday, didn't you?
No, I did n o t .
When did you l e a r n it?
On Sunday when Agent S k o r l i n s k i and I conferred
outside the vehicle, uh, when Brendan was b e i n g
interviewed.
Now, you had -- What w a s y o u r purpose in going
over t h e r e on Sunday?
I believe, uh, t h e p u r p o s e was t h e search w a r r a n t s
for the vehicles.
Okay. Besides l e a r n i n g from -- Was Brendan
already in your police vehicle when you l e a r n e d
f r o m S k o r l i n s k i t h a t t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n had b e e n
developed a b o u t t h e bus driver?
Yes.
Okay. And during the course of this hour and
t w e n t y m i n u t e s , do you know when that was?
I may, but I want to back up j u s t , uh, two questions

before.
No. I -- I'd r a t h e r you answer my q u e s t i o n . The
Government will g e t --
Urn --
-- their chance.
I t h i n k it was about a t h i r d of the way into the
interview. I t h i n k it w a s p r e t t y obvious, during the
audio part, where I got o u t of the v e h i c l e , came back
a n d asked him the question about the, uh -- how many
people were on t h e bus, and the b u s d r i v e r , and so

forth.
S o you b e l i e v e i t w a s a b o u t t h e t i m e you a s k e d
him the question about the number of individuals

o n the bus as f a r as the -- where that
information came to you during the c o u r s e of the

hour and twenty minutes?
Yes.
Now, S k o r l i n s k i is the one who actually made

application for and obtained the search warrant
for S t e v e Avery's Pontiac: right?

I'd have to see a copy of t h e search warrant, but I
believe so.
Do you know when that occurred?
The execution of the search w a r r a n t ?
Correct.
Uh, the s e i z u r e of t h e v e h i c l e was on Sunday. I
don't know when I a c t u a l l y did the search of the
vehicles.
Okay. Do you know when S k o r l i n s k i actually g o t
the w a r r a n t ?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Objection. Relevance.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Uh, no, I do n o t .
(By Attorney Edelstein) But you know it was
before Sunday; correct?
I don't recall.
Detective, obviously, you f i l e d and prepared some
reports as a r e s u l t of your activity in this
case; correct?
Yes.
And you testified earlier that you had reviewed
some of your n o t e s , uh, to h e l p refresh your
memory f o r purposes of testifying?
The t r a n s c r i p t and the audio recordings I did.
Okay. I thought t h a t -- I thought you said y o u r
notes,
I p r o b a b l y d i d , but i t w a s a transcript and the a u d i o
files. I don't recall that I actually looked a t the
r e p o r t , although I had a copy of it in my folder.
Did you Look at any n o t e s that you made of your
activities, which you would o r d i n a r i l y make, to

h e l p you prepare reports, for example?
Not r e c e n t l y , no.
Would t h o s e n o t e s i n d i c a t e when you l e a r n e d t h a t
S k o r l i n s k i had obtained the search warrant for
the P o n t i a c automobile?
I ' d have to review t h e reports.
The report or your notes?
I don't have notes. There's a r e p o r t that I
produced.
Now, before -- A r e you t h e one who a c t u a l l y
stopped the P o n t i a c automobile?
NO, I'm n o t .
Do you know who d i d ?
I believe Deputy Degnitz.
Okay. And what time was t h a t ?
COURT REPORTER: Could you spell h i s
last name, p l e a s e ?
THE WITNESS: D-e-g-n-i-t-z. Before
noon.
(By A t t o r n e y Edelstein) Can you be more
specific?
I got t h e r e -- I think I re -- p u t down, l i k e , P1:50,
s o s h o r t l y before t h a t . W e w e r e o n l y maybe h a l f a
m i l e away.
Okay. So if -- if your report says at a b o u t

11:55 a.m. you and B a l d w i n , uh, met with D e g n i t z
on Parkway, that would -- you wouldn't take issue
w i t h that?
A f t e r h e made the stop we d i d . I don't -- I don't

know.
Okay. Had he already stopped the Pontiac?

Yes.
And who's t h e one t h a t d i r e c t e d h i m t o s t o p the
Pontiac?
I believe, uh, one of the o f f i c e r s . E i t h e r myself,
Detective Baldwin, or Agent S k o r l i n s k i .
And you don't remember if you were the one who --

This -- this i s a d e p u t y w i t h i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t ;
right?
A Yes.
Q And you can't tell us who -- w h e t h e r you have an
independent memory of t e l l i n g one of your own
deputies in y o u r department to stop a vehicle

where you have a search warrant?

THE COURT: 1 -- I'm going to sustain
that objection. Move on.
Q ( B y A t t o r n e y Edelstein) So to t h e best of your
recollection, was the vehicle stopped by t h e time
you got t h e r e ?
A Yes.
Q And I believe you t e s t i f i e d that you and Baldwin
took Brendan into y o u r v e h i c l e ; r i g h t ?

A We a s k e d him i f h e would t a l k t o u s i n my v e h i c l e .
He said, y e s .
Q What happened to h i s brother?
A He w e n t and t a l k e d to Agent S k e r l i n s k i in his

vehicle.
Q Was it j u s t S k o r l i n s k i over in h i s car?

A I t h i n k S k o r l i n s k i a l s o had a p a r t n e r , I -- Her name
escapes me. I only met her once.
Q Is t h a t the o n e referred to in your report as
Deb, paren, u n s u r e l a s t name?
A I believe s o . Yes.
Okay. Now, before you -- You had never met
B r e n d a n ; right?
No
Okay. O t h e r than the f a c t t h a t h e w a s r e l a t e d ,
p e r h a p s , to Steven Avery o r some of t h e other
members of the Avery family that you had visited
with the day before, you -- you didn't know

a n y t h i n g at a l l about him, did you?
No.
Did you know how o l d he was?
Uh, y e s .
And where did you get that i n f o r m a t i o n ?

From him.
No. I h t a l k i n g about before you talked with

him?
If I had it b e f o r e I talked t o him, p e r h a p s from

S t e v e n when he was telling me a b o u t who he come up
with and who there were -- who was all p r e s e n t ,
perhaps.
Steven didn't tell you that h e came up there in

the -- with his nephew accompanying him, did he?
No.
You didn't know what grade h e w a s i n ?
I don't recall what grade he was in.
No. I'm asking you, d i d you know, p r i o r t o

making contact with him on Sunday, November 6,
what grade he was in?
A No.
Q You didn't know what school he went to, d i d you?

A No.
Q You had no idea w h e t h e r you were dealing with

what we would -- what you might typically call an
average teenager or a teenager w i t h a n y t y p e of
limitations, is that a f a i r statement?
A Yes.
Q You had no i d e a about, uh, his ability -- what
I his memory skills were, did you?

A Before our conversation, no.
Q Correct. You had no idea about his ability to

perceive and understand, urn, language; correct?
A Before our conversation, no.
Q Okay. Is it fair to say that during the course

of your conversation w i t h him, that you came to
t h e conclusion that, urn, he did have some
difficulty sometimes understanding the question
that was being asked of him?

A No.
Q You don" agree with that?
A No, I don't.
Q Mr. Fallon asked you about his demeanor. You had
24 0
never been around this young man before, had you?
No, I had not.
You had no idea what he a c t e d l i k e when he was
playing a video game, f o r example?
No.
Had no idea what h e a c t e d like when he was

dealing, uh, with a t e a c h e r , f o r example?
No.
You had no i d e a what he a c t e d L i k e when h e was
dealing with a person like yourself? Of a -- an

authoritative figure?
P r i o r to o u r conversation, no.
And you t o l d him you were a police o f f i c e r ;
right?
Yes.
B e f o r e he got into t h e police cruiser that you
were d r i v i n g , which I guess is unmarked; r i g h t ?
It's a Ford T a u r u s l i k e what a n y o t h e r person may

have in their garage.
Okay. There's no cage i n the back?

No.
All right. H o w much time elapsed from t h e time
of the stop u n t i l you g o t him into the backseat
of y o u r T a u r u s ?
From the time that I a r r i v e d t h e r e ?
Well, y e s .
Not much.
Ballpark?
C o u p l e minutes.
Okay. You had some c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h h i m before
h e got i n t h e r e ? I ' m t a l k i n g about the back of
your car.
Other t h a n i n t r o d u c i n g m y s e l f , a s k i n g h i m i f he'd
l i k e to come in --
Right.
-- to t a l k to me in the c a r , that's about it.

Okay. So h e agreed, s u r e , I'm going t o c o m e
over, a n d you g u y s direct h i m into the backseat?
You're in the f r o n t , Baldwin" on the passenger
side --
Yes.
-- correct? Okay. And you've g o t this a u d i o ,
urn, r e c o r d e r -- digital a u d i o recorder stuck, you

said, in a visor? Which one was it i n ? Right or
left?
The visor caddy? I n t h e driver's side visor.
W a s it visible?
Yes.
You didn't tell him it was t h e r e , did you?

No.
You first asked him something to the effect, last
Monday, do you remember seeing this girl at all?
Did you have a photograph that you showed h i m ?
I b e l i e v e we d i d . Yes.
What became of t h a t photograph?

I don't know. I t h i n k you" have to ask Detective
Baldwin.
Did you get t h a t from someone in Calumet County?

If you know.
1 don't know.
Is it f a i r to say that you, as well as Baldwin,
were not pleased w i t h the a n s w e r s you received to
some of your inquiries?
I can't say that. Are you asking if his answers were

suspect? Yes.
Well, I assume if somebody gives you what you
consider to be a suspect answer, it's not going
to please you, is it?
Well, the idea that someone gives me an a n s w e r , it's
not supposed to please me. I -- I just don't base it

on, does it please me or not.
Well --
I mean, I don't --
-- w a n t to mince words, b u t --
THE COURT: One at a time.
THE WITNESS: I'm s o r r y .
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) A s an investigator,
you're t r y i n g to get information?

A Correct.
Q And it's important to get the right information?

A Truthful i n £ ormation.
Q Well, if it's t r u t h f u l , it would be right,

wouldn't it?
A I f it pleases you.
Q Well, do you believe t h a t untruthful information
is sometimes right?
A It m a y p l e a s e some people.
Q I'm n o t a s k i n g about p l e a s u r e . I'm a s k i n g how

you perceived to be information. If it's
truthful, it's r i g h t ; correct?
A Yes, I agree w i t h that.
Q Okay. And if it's not truthful, it's n e t r i g h t ?

A It doesn" p l e a s e me.
Q It does n o t please you?

A No.
a V e r y good. T h a n k you. And you believed you were
getting, at certain points d u r i n g t h e course of
this hour and twenty minutes, what you believed
to be u n t r u t h f u l information; correct?
14 4
A Correct.
Q And t h a t did n o t please you; c o r r e c t ?
A I took no p l e a s u r e .
Q Do you think your d i s p l e a s u r e was e v i d e n t to

Brendan?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, I -- I'm
going to interpose an o b j e c t i o n . The question is
not p l e a s u r e or d i s p l e a s u r e . I -- I just object

to the characterization to the line of inquiry.
Uh, let's -- Eith -- E i t h e r it's information t h a t
t h e y t h o u g h t suspect or not s u s p e c t and what they
did. That's what's relevant, n o t displeasure.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, i f I
m i g h t respond?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: This witness has
testified about the demeanor o f the defendant.
Those are subjective characterizations that he

places upon r e a c t i o n s . I believe we are entitled
to i n q u i r e of this witness what actions he may

have taken, whether he showed displeasure, his
feelings, as that, obviously, may have affected
how t h e defendant reacted. This j u r y is e n t i t l e d

to evaluate that f o r themselves.
THE COURT: Well --
3145
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: 1 don't believe
t h a t this is beyond the s c o p e .
THE COURT: You -- You're now r e a c h i n g
at -- at framing a question that seems to a s k , do
you t h i n k he reacted in a way to a question you
might have asked, Detective, because you evinced
some displeasure? At least that's where I hear you
going, a n d I -- a n d I'm n o t -- I'm not s u r e t h a t --

t h a t , uh, this w i t n e s s is competent to -- to be
making that evaluation -- that -- that substantive
evaluation about -- about the defendant.
Urn, can you recast the question?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Let me try it this
way, Judge. Maybe we can save a little time.
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) D e t e c t i v e , I guess you

would agree w i t h me t h a t you -- you have no
degrees o f any sort, education, or training,
which gives you any s p e c i f i c authoritative
ability to evaluate, urn, why an individual may
react to you in the nay they do? Is that a fair

statement? You're not a psychologist?
A I'm not a psychologist. That's correct.
Q And c e r t a i n l y n o t a child psychologist?
A I am not a c h i l d psychologist. That's correct.

I
Q Okay. H o w f a r into the interview t h a t took about
14 6
a n h o u r and twenty m i n u t e s , urn, did you become
I
confrontational w i t h Brendan?
A I wasn't confrontational w i t h h i m .
ATTORNEY EDELSTELN: May I approach,
Your H o n o r ?
THE COURT: Go a h e a d .
C! (By Attorney Edelstein) Detective, if you would,
and i g n o r e a l l the colorful m a r k s on here, does
this Look to be -- these two pages l o o k to be --

or t h r e e pages, I'm sorry, look to be a copy of
the o f f i c i a l supplemental r e p o r t from t h e
Marinette County Sheriff's O f f i c e , Investigative
Division, t h a t you prepared?
A Yes.
Q That's a yes?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And f o r reference numbers for the r e c o r d ,
it's Complaint 0-5-4-1-2-0; right?
A Correct.
Q And I'm making reference to page one of three
right now?
A Yes.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Would you guys j u s t
talk into the m i k e j u s t f o r o u r juror here?
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) I f you would, take a
147
l o o k at the f i r s t paragraph of page t w o of your
report and j u s t read that to yourself. Does that
help you, uh -- If I asked you the same question
a g a i n about what time d u r i n g t h e course of this
hour and t w e n t y minutes you got confrontational,
would it change your answer?
No
Did you not write, when I confronted B r e n d a n ?
Yes.
For the record, this has been marked as, uh,
Exhibit 202; is that right?

Yes.
Is t h a t --
I think so.
This is the same report we were j u s t t a l k i n g
about?
Uh, outside of the highlighting and circumstances,
yes.
Well, you wrote in t h a t r e p o r t that you
confronted Brendan; r i g h t ?
Confronted. Yes.
Is that d i f f e r e n t t h a n m y understanding of being

confrontational?
Yes.
Help me out. Explain it to me. Explain it t o

this j u r y .
A Confrontational is more a presence of mind and
demeanor. C o n f r o n t e d is questioning o r , uh, having a
person explain. I c o n f r o n t e d him about his answer.
I c a l l e d him o n it. I asked him a b o u t it. Why did
you tell me this when you said this?
Confrontational --
Q And which -- And which ---

THE COURT: Just -- Just a moment. He
was -- he was going to f i n i s h the answer. Allow him
to finish please. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Confrontational would
suggest t h e demeanor that I had when i n t e r v i e w i n g

Brendan, and that was not correct statement that
she had in a s k i n g why I was confrontational w i t h
h i m when I was not confrontational with him.
COURT REPORTER: Can you -- I'm s o r r y .

THE COURT: Yeah. You --
COURT REPORTER: Would you slow down,
please? I'm having a h a r d time understanding
you.
THE WITNESS: I d i d n o t have a

confrontational conversation with Brendan Dassey.
I confronted him, or questioned h i m , or called

him on one of his answers that he gave t h a t was
14 9
not consistent with what he was telling us
before.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) And which answer was

that?
A Multiple. Uh, t h i n g s -- Specific one that's related
t o in t h e r e p o r t was the, u h , school bus.
Q Were you present -- If -- If you know, who w a s
the f i r s t one to ask Brendan, if a n y o n e , be it

you, Baldwin, or S k o r l i n s k i , whether or not he
remembered anybody t a k i n g photographs of t h e van?
A I believe it was me.

Q And you were p r e s e n t when Baldwin said, you
remember that girl t a k i n g t h a t p i c t u r e . You9e
g e t t i n g off the bus. It's a beautiful day. Were

you t h e r e when -- d u r i n g t h a t exchange?
A I believe t h a t w a s me. Not Baldwin, was it?
Q Well, in any e v e n t , you remember it; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q Okay. You're g e t t i n g off the b u s . It's a
beautiful day. It's daylight. And everybody
sees her, comma, you do, t o o . D i d you mean t o
suggest to h i m t h a t t h e s e are facts that he

s h o u l d affirm by the way you asked that question?
A I ' d have to see it in its full c o n t e x t , because I

know a couple times I asked him a b o u t seeing her on
150
I
the b u s , and that may have been a reaffirming
question to him. I'm not certain as to where it is

in t h e t r a n s c r i p t .
I t h i n k you t o l d u s already that you did have a
chance t o review t h e t r a n s c r i p t from t h e audio?

Yes.
Okay. Can you t a k e a l o o k at what I have in
front of you here? Does t h i s look to be a copy
of that t r a n s c r i p t ?
Yes.
Okay. Directing your attention to page 17 at the

bottom where it's indicated, Detective Baldwin,
yeah, you r e m e m b e r that girl. That portion? You
thought maybe you s a i d that? B u t if this
i n d i c a t e s Baldwin, do you have any problem w i t h
it? Do you remember who said it?
From the area you're representing inside the
transcript, uh, Detective Baldwin.
Okay. And would you agree w i t h me that t h i s is
r e a l l y the f i r s t time, d u r i n g the course of the
conversation, where somebody suggests to him the

girl's taking p i c t u r e s ?
Could you repeat t h e question, please?
You had a s k e d him a b o u t t a k i n g the pictures
earlier?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And you were t h e f i r s t one w h o brought

t h a t up?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Then there was some follow-up by Baldwin;

right?
A By myself and then Baldwin.
Q Okay. But d u r i n g the time that you first b r o u g h t

it up -- Or, I'm sorry. That -- Yeah, that you
first b r o u g h t i t up, and t h e n when Baldwin
b r o u g h t i t up, the q u e s t i o n b e i n g , from y o u r s e l f ,
the girl t a k i n g pictures. You remember that.
Okay. Would you agree that that's how it w a s
asked?
A A f t e r t h e i n i t i a l one, y e s .
Q And you asked h i m i n that fashion?
A After the initial -- initial affirmation by Dassey
t h a t he did see the girl t a k i n g pictures, that next
inquiry was what you said.
Q You i n d i c a t e d after h i s initial affirmation t h a t
he saw t h e g i r l t a k i n g pictures. Help m e out and
show me where that is -- precedes that in the

transcript?
ATTORNEY FALLON: A r e we s t i l l on page
17, gentlemen?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Yeah.
A Okay. Baldwin's comments were a f t e r m y i n i t i a l
asking him about the girl t a k i n g p i c t u r e s .
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) All right. So you were

i n c o r r e c t when you s a i d it was a f t e r his initial
affirmation of seeing the girl take pictures?
Q Okay. Well, nobody's p e r f e c t . We all make

mistakes. Won't hold that against you. So
you're the first one t h a t r e a l l y b r o u g h t it up?
A Yes.
Q Okay. As long as I'm here, so I don't have to
chase back and f o r t h , between the first time you
b r o u g h t it up, you make the statement that's --
it's soot on -- not everyday somebody's t a k i n g
p i c t u r e s of a van; r i g h t ?
A Correct.
Q The q u e s t i o n then becomes, how many people are on
the bus?
A Correct.
Q H e answers t h e question; sight?

A Correct.
Q The next question, as far as t a k i n g p i c t u r e s ,
comes from you. The girl t a k i n g pictures. You
remember that. Right?
153
A Correct.
Q Okay. H e says, well, I wasn' t l o o k i n g at. And
then it l o o k s like he was interrupted; right?
A Uh --
ATTORNEY FALLON: I -- I would object to
that characterization. I think the, uh, tape,

itself, will speak another explanation.
THE COURT: Yeah. The -- the tape is

the -- is the best evidence here. I'll sustain the
objection.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: That" fine.

Q (By Attorney Edelstein) In -- in a n y e v e n t ,
there's no a n s w e r to that? H e does n o t a f f i r m or
deny what you're asserting; correct?
A According t o t h e t r a n s c r i p t , the w r i t t e n p a r t , there
is no s p e c i f i c answer to it.
Q And if this is based upon the video everybody
j u s t saw, and you corn -- I -- did -- had -- d i d

you ever personally compare this to the -- to the
audio?
A Yes.
Q And it's accurate?
A To a point it can be, yes.
Q B u t he never e i t h e r affirmed or d e n i e d what you
f i r s t suggested to him about the g i r l taking t h e
154
pictures?
A He does state t h a t t h e y -- he s a w the girl t a k i n g
pictures.
Q Not until it's b r o u g h t up again, especially in

this ex -- sight in this little exchange, next,
not by yourself, but by Baldwin?
A Yes.
Q And his answer was, maybe. I don't know. Right?

A Initial copy, y e s .
Q And that's when Baldwin said, Brendan, come on,

as if to suggest t h a t Brendan was withholding
something?
A My opinion?
Q Yes, sir.
A Perhaps.
Q IS y o u k e disappointed a b o u t something,
Detective, would you be displeased?
I
THE COURT: That's sustained.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Did you n o t --

ATTORNEY FALLON: As to t h e form
anyways.
Q (By Attorney EdeLstein) You told him, did you
not, Brendan, and I quote, you're n o t g o i n g to

I
I disappoint us. Do you remember telling him that?
155
A Yes.
Q Do you remember a s k i n g him, d i d you see her

s t a n d i n g there t a k i n g a p i c t u r e ?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Counsel, 1% on
page 18.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) And he -- he d i d answer,
yeah?
A Yes.
Q A n d then you -- did you immediately t h e r e a f t e r
ask him -- and if -- if you don't remember, I"L1

come back, but did you ask h i m , why didn't you
tell me that?
A I'm going to save you a trip. Yes.
Q And you suggested to him t h e r e a s o n t h a t he,

p e r h a p s , d i d n ' t t e l l you that, was that he was
scared? Because you phrased it as, are you
scared? Right?
A I'm n o t sure if it w a s in response to h i m saying he

was a f r a i d or if, by itself, I j u s t s a i d , a r e you
scared?
Q Is t h e r e some reason you didn't o f f e r up as an
expLanation f o r his failure or inability to
answer your earlier question that, perhaps, he
h a s a bad memory?
A I didn't have that opinion.

Q You didn't know anything about him other than the
brief contact you had that morning; correct?

A Uh, nothing before o u r conversation to suggest t o me
that he had a bad memory.
Q All right.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Just one moment,
Judge.
THE COURT: Okay.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, if I may, it's
3:OO. I believe Mr. Edelstein still has some

significant amount of cross, and the S t a t e will
have a couple o f questions. Court want to take a
break?
THE COURT: Sure. Uh, we'll b r e a k until
(Recess h a d at 3 : 0 3 p . m . )
(Reconvened at 3:27 p.m.)
THE COURT: C o u n s e l , you may resume.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Thank you.
Q ( B y Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) Detective OtNeill,

d u r i n g the course of one hour and t w e n t y minutes,
r o u g h l y , would you agree o r disagree with m e t h a t
both, yourself, as well as S k o r l i n s k i and
Baldwin, t o l d Brendan that you believed t h a t h e

was b e i n g told what to say?
157
-
A We brought t h a t up, yes.
Q All r i g h t . And when you s a y you b r o u g h t i t up,
you, basically, f l a t o u t told him, you're being
told what to say. Right? If -- if it'll h e l p

speed it a l o n g , Detective, I t h i n k that
Mr. Fallon brought over --

A It w a s brought up. That's c o r r e c t .
Q What's been m a r k e d as 203, does that look to be a

copy of the transcript that we w e r e l o o k i n g at
before?
A Yes, it is.
Q Same one t h a t you compared to the a u d i o ?

I
A Yes.
Q And best you know, that" accurate?

A Yes.
Q Can you t e l l t h i s jury how many times between

you, S k o r l i n s k i , and Baldwin that that assertion
was presented -- sor -- to Brendan?
A I believe we asked him, uh, at l e a s t two, p r o b a b l y

three, times, uh, w h e t h e r or n o t he was t o l d to say
something.
Q Okay. Can you tell t h i s j u r y how many times
d u r i n g the course of an hour a n d twenty minutes
i n t e r v i e w that you had w i t h Brendan t h a t l i e s
I
were t o l d to him by e i t h e r you, S k o r l i n s k i , or
158
Baldwin?
A No lies.
(2 Would you t u r n to page 33, please? Toward the
bottom of that, uh, specifically, Detective
Baldwin, the statement is made to Brendan, quote,
s h e n e e d s medicine -- medicines on a d a i l y basis,
okay? Do you see w h e r e I h talking about?

A Yes, I do.
Q It's not true, was it?

A It's standard deception p r a c t i c e used by
investigators.
Q Okay. Well, I don't want to go down the please,

displease rows a g a i n , but can you tell me the
I
difference between s t a n d a r d -- That what you
said? Standard deception practices and a lie?
A I didn't say l i e . Deceptive practices t h a t w e may
utilize as f a r as what responses we get from the

question.
Q Would you agree w i t h me that a lie is something
that's not true?
A If t h e r e " a benefit gained that's ill will, y e s .

I
Q I'm s o r r y . Could you repeat your answer?

A If you could repeat your question?
Q Okay.
A I'm sorry, I j u s t -- You're asking about a lie and if ,

I
I
159
t h i s was a l i e ?
Q I'm trying to understand w h e t h e r -- when you used
the p h r a s e "deceptive p r a c t i c e s t t --
A Urn-hrnm.
I
Q -- whether -- L e t me ask it this way. In your

business, does a deceptive practice c o n t a i n
intentionally f a l s e information t h a t is conveyed

to a n o t h e r person?
A It's allowable to u s e some t r i c k e r y a n d deceit.
Q I'm not asking what's allowable. 1% asking what

it is?
A Something i n the idea of what we h a d asked him

concerning t h e medications that s h e would need. Yes.
THE COURT: You -- you're not answering the
question, Detective. Would you reask it, please?
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Did -- Did you

understand my question?
A If you're a s k i n g me if I lied -- or if Detective
Baldwin lied to him, I'd say no.
Q All r i g h t . When the statement w a s made to

Brendan, quote, s h e needs medicine on a daily
basis, you acknowledge that t h e statement w a s
made; correct?
A Correct.
Q And you acknowledge, a l s o , that when it was made,
160
neither you nor Raldwin had a n y basis f o r
believing t h a t t h a t was a t r u e s t a t e m e n t ; isn't
t h a t also correct?
A True.
Q All r i g h t . You, Baldwin, and S k o r l i n s k i implored
him to t e l l you the truth; correct?
A Yes.
Q I n addition t o t h e deceptive p r a c t i c e , l i e ,
misrepresentation, however you want t o
characterize it, a b o u t the medicine, it was a l s o
suggested to Brendan, in a similar f a s h i o n , that
his brother was Looking out t h e k i t c h e n window.

D o you r e c a l l t h a t ?
THE COURT: Do you have a page for t h a t ?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: IqTL have to f i n d
it, Judge. I know it's in here.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Page 30, p l e a s e ? You

see at the bottom there, Detective, uh, by
Baldwin, you and your b r o t h e r both? It's the

third entry from t h e bottom.
A I see it.
' Q Okay. It recites, you and y o u r b r o t h e r b o t h s a t
there and l o o k e d out the window at her. Right?
A Yes.
Q You and -- You had no basis for b e l i e v i n g t h a t t o
161
be true, d i d you?
A I didn' t make that statement.
Q Well --
A I can't say for t h a t statement.
Q A 1 1 right. You were i n and out of the vehicle
during this hour and t w e n t y minutes; right?
A Yes.
Q Urn, it was November. Do you remember what the

temperature was t h a t day?
A It was c o o l .
Q Give me a range. If -- if you don't remember,

I
that's f i n e .
A I would say c l o s e to 3 5 to 4 0 .
Q All r i g h t . Was the h e a t e r on in your vehicle?

A I don't recall.
Q Do you remember if Baldwin turned it o f f because
B r e n d a n a s k e d him to? Or turned it down?
A Not while I was in t h e vehicle.
Q Okay. So if it happened, it might have happened

when you were out t a l k i n g to S k o r l i n s k i ?
A It may have. I don't --

Q Okay. When you g o t out, that's what you were
doing, weren't you? You were going back to t a l k
to S k o r l i n s k i ?
A For t h e most p a r t , y e s .
162
Q And y o u w e r e s o r t o f r e p o r t i n g i n t o S k o r l i n s k i
what the progress was as f a r a s , uh, g a i n i n g a n y
information from Brendan; right?

I
A Sometimes. Yes.
Q All right. Do you know how many times that you

told Brendan that he was n o t telling the t r u t h ?
A No.
Q B u t you acknowledge that it happened on multiple
occasions d u r i n g the course of this h o u r and
twenty minutes; r i g h t ?
A It may have. Yes.
Q Well -- Now, you t e s t i f i e d on d i r e c t t h a t I t h i n k
when Mr. Fallon first started having you explain
your involvement in this matter, I believe you

I said the information that you had was minimal.
Do you remember that testimony?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Urn, b u t , actually, you had c e r t a i n l y not
every piece of information b u t you knew more than
j u s t name, rank, and serial number, so to speak,
didn't you? You had some very --

ATTORNEY FALLON: Objection.
Q ( B y Attorney Edelstein) -- s p e c i f i c details?
ATTORNEY FALLON: N a m e , r a n k and s e r i a l
number is -- is vague.
163
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: All right. That's
fine.
THE COURT: Rephrase that, please.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) For example, ~ e t e c t i v e ,

you knew that a vehicle had been found on the
Avery p r o p e r t y ?
A Yes.
Q And you knew that that vehicle, uh, had been

checked by a registration, and V I N , and all t h a t ,
and t h a t it was Teresa Halbach's?
A There was presumptive that it was. Yes.
Q Okay. So you -- you presumed that t h a t was, in

fact, the case?
A (No verbal response. )
Q All right. And, in a d d i t i o n to that, you a l s o
knew that, u h , the v e h i c l e had been, in same
respect, uh, apparently, concealed?
A Yes.
Q Okay. You knew that Teresa Halbach worked as a
freelance photographer; correct?

A Yes.
Q You knew that s h e worked, uh, with the A u t o T r a d e r

Magazine.
A Yes.
Q You knew that s h e had, uh, been at the Avery

p r o p e r t y , o r was scheduled to be a t the Avery
p r o p e r t y , on t h e 31st of October?
A Yes.
Q You knew a b u s d r i v e r had reported seeing her at
t h e Avery property on the 31st of October?
A That Sunday. Yes.
Q Any o t h e r p a r t i c u l a r d e t a i l s t h a t you may have
known w h e r e we can j u d g e w h e t h e r your answer on
the minimal is a good one or a bad one?

Argumentative.
THE COURT: Uh, sustained.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) You testified -- I f

you'll bear w i t h -- with me a second, I need t o
find t h i s i n the transcript. You t e s t i f i e d t h a t
you made no s o r t of promises t o h i m ; right? Do
you recall t h a t ?
A No
' Q D i d you make a n y promises to h i m ?
A No.
Q All r i g h t . Detective, j u s t so I don't have to g o
t h r o u g h each individual present, d i d -- d i d you,
o r e i t h e r Skorlinski or Baldwin, in your
presence, make any promises to Brendan?
A Outside telling him he was free to leave, no.
165
Q Didn't someone tell him that, urn, no matter what
I
he said, or something to that effect, t h a t h e was

I
n o t going to j a i l ?
A He brought up the idea that he was a f r a i d t h a t we'd
take him to jail. I remember that.

Q All right. Directing your attention to page 36.
A t the bottom. F o u r lines u p .
A Urn-hmm .
Q You said, okay, why did you n o t tell us the truth
about when you saw h e r l e a v i n g ? Answer: I was

scared. Right?
A Correct.
Q Is there some reason -- Well, if -- What was the
v e r y n e x t t h i n g that you said i n response to his
assertion he was scared?

A Okay. Let's g e t beyond being scared.
Q All r i g h t .
A Continue?
Q Let me stop you right there. So you wanted to
g e t beyond this issue of being scared. Is t h e r e
some reason you didn't explore that more if your
goal is to gather as much information to get t o

the truth of what happened? Why it happened?
Who d i d what?
A I did.
166
Q Why did you tell him, then, okay, l e t v s g e t
beyond being scared?

A Because we had to deal w i t h that part of it.
Q With what? I'm s o r r y .

A We had to d e a l w i t h h i s fear. That p a s t i f he was
scared about something. Let's get beyond being

scared,
Q Well, I take that to mean that -- L e t me ask you

this: Isn't it true that during the course of
I
the hour -- hour and twenty minutes, despite him

I saying several times h e was scared, you,
S k o r l i n s k i , or Baldwin never r e a l l y i n q u i r e d a n y
f u r t h e r about that? What w e r e you s c a r e d of?

Why were you scared? When did you become scared?
You never -- You guys never had -- went i n t o
that, did you?
A I t h i n k it was covered several times i n the a u d i o .

What are you afraid of, Brendan? I -- I think I
remember those words, specifically.
Q All right. Well --

A I think --
Q Maybe we'll f i n d that i n a second. I don't want
to get off 3 6 , though, b u t let's g o back to this
i s s u e of promises. At the second to the Last
entry on t h a t page, Detective, r i g h t after
167
getting past b e i n g scared, urn, what does -- you
told him, in fact, urn, get beyond the idea of
getting in trouble and going to j a i l because

I that's not g o i n g to happen. That's w h a t you told
him; right?
A Correct.
Q Isn't that a promise? Aren't you promising him

that he's n o t g o i n g to j a i l ?
A I told him he didn't have to t a l k to me and he was

free to l e a v e . There was no --
Q Doesn't answer my question. D i d you t e l l him he
wasn't -- that -- quote, going to j a i l because
that's not going to happen? D i d you or did you
n o t tell h i m t h a t ?
A Yes.
Q Do you construe that as a promise to h i m ?

A No.
Q Is it fair to say that during the course of t h e

interview, t h a t you or the others s u g g e s t to him,
uh, potential reasons why Teresa could be
missing? For example, a n a c c i d e n t ?

A Yes,
Q Is it fair to say that during the course of the
interviews, t h a t you, S k o r l i n s k i , or Baldwin
I suggested to him alternatives, uh, s u c h as
168
mistake?
A Yes.
Q Did you probe into Brendan when he i n d i c a t e d t h a t

sometimes he g e t s s h y when he's talking to people
he doesn't know?
A A t the end of t h e interview? No.
Q Would it be fair to -- to characterize that --

during the course of t h e interview, that t h e
t h r e e of you, at various times, attempted to
increase t h e emotional feeling of guilt i n t h e
mind of Brendan Dassey?
A I apologize, but would you repeat that?
Q Would you agree o r disagree with me that d u r i n g
the course of the hour and twenty minutes that
you, Baldwin, S k o r l i n s k i spent with Brendan I
Dassey, that t h e r e was a conscious e f f o r t to
increase in his mind his belief and feeling of
guilt?
A No.
Q C o u l d you go to page 4 0 ?
A Forty?
Q Yes, please, Fifth entry from the bottom? You

were there, and Baldwin s a i d as follows: You
f e e l guilty right now t h a t you didn't help that
girl. Correct? You see where I'm talking about?
169
A I see.
Q I see t h e glasses you got during the break.

A 1 see it.
Q In fact, t h e v e r y next statement made by an

o f f i c e r , and 1% j u s t jumping down two l i n e s
t h e r e , a g a i n , as Baldwin, where he says, I can

see in your eyes that you f e e l terrible about
something. Right?
A Yes.
Q Is t h a t not a -- Did -- Did you and S k o r l i n s k i
ever discuss, uh, how you might appeal t o o r

c a u s e B r e n d a n t o think that he was guilty of
something in o r d e r to t r y to get some
information?
A No.
Q Now, you indicated you made no notes at the time
0 5 t h e interview; correct?
A Correct.
Q You produced, uh, the supplement report t h a t we

t a l k e d about, uh, sometime a f t e r that; right?
A Yes.
Q So i f it was d a t e d 11/11, a b o u t f i v e days later?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And you d i d n " use y o u r handy dandy little
d i g i t a l recorder t h a t you had up on t h e visor to
170
make notes of this i n t e r a c t i o n with Brendan on
the way back to e i t h e r , uh, your home, or
wherever you left when you d i d leave, uh, to h e l p
you prepare the report; right?
A No.
Q So you're h a v i n g to r e l y e n t i r e l y upon your

memory when you described his demeanor; correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And that's about 16 months ago; right?

A Yes.
Q Okay. But you acknowledge t h e r e ' s n o t h i n g a t a l l

in y o u r s e p o r t a b o u t h i s demeanor?
A No.
Q Isn't it true that the first i n d i v i d u a l t o s t a t e

l
o r suggest that Teresa Halbach went into t h e
Steve Avery trailer was a police o f f i c e r , as f a r
a s your i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h Brendan on this date?
A Yes.
Q Okay. S o it's not something t h a t he came up with
in r e s p o n s e to a q u e s t i o n , that, well, for

example, I saw h e r when I g o t o f f t h e bus and 1
saw h e r go into the h o u s e ?
A Correct.
Q Okay. That n o t i o n or that c o n c e p t was promoted

to him, u h , somewhat of a theme throughout this
171
interview, wasn't it?
A No.
Q You don't agree with t h a t ?

A No.
Q All r i g h t . But you acknowledge that it was a

police officer who f i r s t brought that alleged
f a c t up?
A Brought the question to him.
Q Okay. I n fact, it happened m o r e than once,
didn't it? T h a t v e r y notion that she went into
the trailer?
A I believe the question was b r o u g h t through more than

once. Yes.
Q Do you understand the d i f f e r e n c e between an

open-ended question a n d a l e a d i n g question, don't
you?
A Yes.
Q Every time t h a t that concept was brought up,
i.e., s h e w e n t into the t r a i l e r , it was done i n a
leading and suggestive fashion; agree or
disagree?
ATTORNEY FALLON: I'm g o i n g to object to
t h a t question. It's, urn, vague as asked.
There's a specific legal definition f o r a l e a d i n g

q u e s t i o n under the Sazznske case, and then
172
there's a whole psychological concept. So I -- I
don" know what we're doing here, b u t I --
THE COURT: Well, you're o b j e c t i n g --
You -- You're objecting to the foundation, I -- I
take it, and -- and --

ATTORNEY FALLON: Foundation and the
manner --
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I can --
ATTORNEY FALLON: -- in which the
question is a s k e d .
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Objection is

sustained.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: J u s t let me do it
this w a y .
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) When you're conducting

an interview, you oftentimes Lead the
interviewee; correct? Know what I'm s a y i n g ,
don? you?
A Well, I believe I do, except that, as M r . F a l l o n
suggested and b r o u g h t forward, y o u r definition and
mine is d i f f e r e n t .
Q Pard me?
' A Your -- your perception of l e a d i n g question and what
I may u s e as a question is d i f f e r e n t .
Q If a question suggests the answer, do you think
173
it's leading?
A Yes.
Q D u r i n g the course of the c o n t a c t with Brendan,
when he was questioned, if he's asked the
question, and I make reference, for example, to
page 31, about halfway down, Brendan, she went
into that trailer, didn't she? Is that a l e a d i n g

question or is it not a l e a d i n g question?
A Yes.
Q It is a Leading question?
A Yes.
Q Correct?
A Urn-hmm .
Q All right. That's a l l f o r now. Thank you.
THE COURT: A n y redirect, Counsel?
ATTORNEY FALLBN: Yes, a few questions.

T h a n k you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q C o u n s e l a s k e d you about promises, inducements.

For you, as a detective, did you make a n y
promises or inducements to M r . Dassey in o r d e r to
get him to speak with you?
A Not at a l l .
Q A11 r i g h t . And, now, is t h a t the concept of
17 4
promise that you had in your mind in response to
Counsel" question on promises?

A No, it is not.
Q No, I mean the concept. When he a s k e d you about

promises, you said you made no promises. Is t h a t
what you meant when you said, no, we didn't make
any promises?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Asked and answered
and suggestive, Your Honor.
ATTORNEY FALLON: He's c l a r i f y i n g --

First of a l l , under 906.11 (c), a leading
q u e s t i o n in r e d i r e c t examination to c l a r i f y a
point -- c l a r i f y a point on cross-examination is
permitted.
Number t w o , this witness clearly has

j u s t indicated he was uncertain as to t h e n a t u r e
of m y question, and I'm attempting to restructure

and d i r e c t it.
THE COURT: That's fair. Uh, you may a s k

the question in that -- in that f a s h i o n .
Q (By Attorney Fallon) Do you u n d e r s t a n d ?

A I ' m t r y i n g to. I believe that, uh, g o t a l i t t l e
confused with what he was t r y i n g to e x p l a i n before,
my d i f f e r e n c e of it, and I'll t r y to get back on
t r a c k as to what my reason was. Go ahead, s i r .

All r i g h t . When he was a s k i n g you what a promise
is, what d i d you understand him to mean? Let's
g e t at it that way.
Uh, promises that I wouldn't do this in exchange for
that.
AIL right. Now, you d i d m a k e promises to him

d u r i n g the interview? For instance, you promised
to take him home?
Correct.
All right. And you s a i d he c o u l d leave i f h e

wanted to?
Correct.
All r i g h t . Now, let's talk a l i t t l e b i t about,
urn, t h e statement, uh, t h e deceptive practice,
r e g a r d i n g the need f o r medical attention. You

indicated t h a t t h a t was a common p r a c t i c e i n a
missing persons case. Tell us about that?
It's probative-type questions.
What do you hope to gain? I mean, what's the

idea b e h i n d s u g g e s t i n g that somebody may have a
medical need when you're t r y i n g to locate -- Why
do you a s k t h a t ?
Being probative. If h i s a n s w e r s would have been
something to t h e e f f e c t , well, I think I could h e l p
her, or, I r e a l l y want to see h e r g e t medication, o r ,

I don't t h i n k s h e n e e d s it now. It give us an idea.
You know, trying t o determine as to whether or not,

is she alive? Is s h e i n j u r e d ? Is s h e not?
All right. Would it be f a i r t o s a y you were
a p p e a l i n g t o a sense of emotion on the p a r t of a
person?
Probing into that venue, y e s .
Urn, Counsel also asked, urn, a b o u t you -- y o u r
efforts, and Detective Baldwin's e f f o r t s , t o
s u g g e s t t h a t , perhaps, Teresa w a s , uh, in Steven
Avery's trailer. Do you recall that?

Yes.
All r i g h t . And I believe you indicated t h a t
t h a t , urn, tact was t a k e n on more than one
occasion in the interview?

Yes.
All r i g h t . At any p o i n t did Mr. Dassey adopt

that and say, yeah, t h a t happened?
No.
S o he resisted t h a t suggestion?
Very firmly.
Urn, you were asked about a p i c t u r e . Do you know
i f you had a p i c t u r e of the missing persons, urn,
report, a p o s t e r , or a card?
I'm trying to recall, but I t h i n k -- We had a missing

person c a s e a month before. Wisconsin h a s a w e b s i t e .
I think we might have y a n k e d a p i c t u r e or a poster
o f f of it.
Q All r i g h t . So you can't recall, particularly,

this case versus the last case, the missing
person you worked on, as to which picture you may
have had?
A No, I can't. B u t I t h i n k Detective Baldwin c o u l d
c l e a r this -- that up.
Q All r i g h t . Urn, 1% going to have a n o t h e r

photograph marked and, uh, shown t o you.
(Exhibit 204 marked f o r identification.)
Q (By Attorney Fallon) Do you r e c o g n i z e t h e people
which are depicted in that photograph?
A Uh, y e s , I do.
Q And who -- who is depicted in that photograph?

A Steven Avery, Brendan Dassey, I think it's A1 Avery,
and A l l s w i f e , Mrs. Avery, I think Carol? Barb?

That's her.
Q All r i g h t . And, urn, are those the individuals
t h a t you spoke with on S a t u r d a y and Sunday,
November 5 and November 6?

A Yes.
Q All r i g h t . And, now, Counsel asked you questions

about, urn, uh, l e a v i n g the p r o p e r t y so e a r l y . In
178
other words, sunset on Saturday evening. What
caused you to leave S a t u r d a y evening?
Mr. Avery, Al Avery, was, uh, i n t o x i c a t e d , and r i d i n g

around in a golf cart, and told us to get o f f his
property or hew shoot us.
All r i g h t . So YOU left?
We left t h e Avery p r o p e r t y and j u s t maintained on the
road.
All r i g h t . And, t h u s , you resumed your
investigation t h e next day?
Correct.
All r i g h t . And the next day was Mr. Avery more
receptive?
Yes.
All r i g h t . A n d cooperative?
Yes,
All r i g h t . And, t h u s , you w e r e a b l e to continue
with t h e , urn, investigation on Sunday?
W i t h the interview of Steven Avery, i n i t i a l l y , yes.
All r i g h t . Urn, particularly with respect to t h e
picture of Brendan Dassey in, 1 t h i n k , Exhibit
204 it is?
Yes.
A91 r i g h t . Urn, is that a -- a fair depiction of

h i s , urn, physical appearance and attributes at or
around the time of this, urn, interview on
November 6?
Yes.
Uh, in other words, he appears to be a little

h e a v i e r in t h a t photograph than h e does --
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor --
(By A t t o r n e y F a l l o n ) -- t o d a y ?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: -- object to t h e
leading nature.
THE COURT: Uh, o v e r r u l e d .
Yes.
(By Attorney F a l l o n ) All right. Do you
r e c o g n i z e t h e l o c a t i o n of t h a t picture?
I believe s o .
And what is it?
It's the Avery c a b i n located in the town of
Stephenson, T believe. I w a s in t h e r e once, and,
t h e table and the, uh, f u r n i s h i n g s l o o k f a m i l i a r .
A l l right. Urn, one last question. Uh, Counsel
a s k e d you, uh, in response to my questions about
assessing M r . Dasseyfs demeanor, does the playing
of the audiotape assist in recollecting his

demeanor during the course of t h e interview?
Uh, definitely.
ATTORNEY FALLON: No f u r t h e r questions.

Would offer the exhibit.
I
THE COURT: Any objection to the exhibit?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: No, that's f i n e ,

Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The exhibit i s
received. I think that's, uh, two thou -- 204?
THE CLERK: Yep.
ATTORNEY FALLON: May we publish the
e x h i b i t , then, on the ELMO?
THE COURT: Sure.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any recross?

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: J u s t very b r i e f l y .
RECROSS-EmINATION
Q Uh, Detective, urn, while they g e t t h a t up on the

screen s o the jury can see that p i c t u r e , urn,
where d i d t h a t p i c t u r e come from? Do you know?

A No, I do not.
Q Pard me?
A No, I do not.
Q A l l right. Urn, M r . Fallon a s k e d you if t h a t

f a i r l y depicted the condition, demeanor of the
defendant, b u t he's sitting at t h e kitchen -- I'm
sorry. The -- the physical attributes. Urn, when
181
you t a l k e d to him, urn, you didn't g e t any
information from him about height, weight,
a n y t h i n g l i k e that, d i d you?
A No.
Q Okay. Urn, o t h e r t h a n t h a t hour and twenty-minute
contact, t h a t was really -- that's -- that's
really t h e e x t e n t of y o u r t o t a l contact with him
throughout your participation in this

investigation; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q Okay. That's all.

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, we
would move, uh, 2 0 2 and 2 0 3 .
THE COURT: Any objection to r e c e i v i n g the
Exhibit Nos. 202 and 2 0 3 ?
ATTORNEY FALLON: We would move f o r
t h e i r admission.
THE COURT: Well, it's -- it's a l r e a d y
been o f f e r e d by the defense.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Oh.
THE COURT: I'm a s k i n g i f you have a n y

objection.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I'm sorry. I
thought --
ATTORNEY FALLON: Obviously, w e d o n ' t .
THE COURT: A l l right. T h e y ' r e received.
You may step down.

ATTORNEY FALLON: I t ' s , urn -- I think

it's too late to start our next witness. He'll
be a lengthy witness.
THE COURT: Can't we s t a r t it and a t least
get some testimony now?
ATTORNEY FALLON: e -- W e can, if you

W
wish.
THE COURT: L e t ' s do i t .
ATTORNEY FALLON: S t a t e would call, uh,
Investigator Wiegert.
THE COURT: I think, before he testifies
and is sworn in, there's a -- another trial
stipulation that is t o be, uh, published; is that
correct?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Yes.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I believe that's --

that's t r u e .
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and
gentlemen, I reminded you before that t r i a l
stipulations were evidence and should be treated

as such. This trial stipulation reads as
follows :
Number one. On October 31, 2005, Angela

Schuster was the manager for A u t o T r a d e r Magazine
with headquarters in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

On the same date, Dawn P l i s z k a performed
duties as receptionist for A u t o T r a d e r .
Number t w o . That if called to testify,

Angela Schuster would testify that Teresa Halbach
was hired as a photographer for A u t o T r a d e r in
October, 2004, and continued in that employment

through October 31, 2005.
Schuster would f u r t h e r state that Teresa
Halbach had performed photo shoots at the Avery
salvage business on five occasions prior to
October 3 1 in 2005, including June 20,

October 22, October -- or, excuse me, L e t me
s t a r t again. June 20, August 22, August 29,

September 19 and October 1 0 .
Number three. That if called to

t e s t i f y , Dawn P L i s z k a would testify that an
October 31, 2005 she received a phone call from
Steven Avery at approximately 8:12 a,m., at which
time Avery requested t h a t , q u o t e , the same girl
t h a t had been out here before, end quote, come to
his property to take photos of a van he had f o r

sale.
P l i s s k a would f u r t h e r s t a t e that Avery
made the appointment under the name, quote, B.
Janda, end q u o t e , and that P L i s z k a left a
voicemail for Teresa Halbach at 9 : 4 6 a.m. asking
if she could make the appointment.
Number f o u r . That if called to t e s t i f y ,
Dawn Pliszka would further testify that at
2:27 p.m. she d i d speak w i t h Teresa Halbach on
Teresa's cell phone at w h i c h time Ms. Halbach
indicated that she was, quote, on her way, end
quote, to the Avery p r o p e r t y from h e r previous

appointment.
That is the entirety of that

stipulation. It will be marked as Exhibit 2 0 5 ?
THE CLERK: Yes.
(Exhibit 205 marked for identification.)

THE COURT: Uh, first to the State, is this
your stipulation?
ATTORNEY FALLON: It is.
THE COURT: To t h e defense, is this your

stipulation?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's correct.
THE COURT: A13 right. It's received. All
right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: S t a t e will continue,
uh, w i t h I n v e s t i g a t o r Mark Wiegert.
MkRK WIEGERT,
c a l l e d as a witness herein, having been f i r s t duly
sworn, was examined and testified as f o l l o w s :

y o u r name and s p e l l y o u r last name e x p l a i n f o r t h e
record.
THE WITNESS: Mark W i e g e r t ,
W-i-e-g-e-r-t.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q How are you employed?
A I'm an investigator with the Calumet County Sheriff's
Department.
Q How l o n g have you been employed by the Calumet
County Sheriff's Department?
A Approximately 14 y e a r s .
Q How long have you h e l d t h e rank of investigator?

A It will be about five y e a r s .
Q And w h a t a r e , g e n e r a l l y , t h e t y p e s o f cases t h a t
you%ve been asked to investigate in your capacity
at t h e Sheriff's Department?
A I n our Department, we do a wide variety of
complaints. A n y t h i n g from thefts, to burglaries, to,

urn, missing persons complaints, urn, d e a t h
investigations, up to homicide investigations.
Q All r i g h t . And, urn, in this particular case, how
is it t h a t you a r e i n v o l v e d in this case?

A Urn, T happened t o be w o r k i n g on, urn -- in November.
I believe it was November 3, to be e x a c t . Urn, one of
our patrol deputies had taking a phone call -- Or r
actually, a complaint, urn, about a missing p e r s o n
complaint. Urn, it was actually, uh, Karen Halbach
had called our Department t o report that h e r
d a u g h t e r , uh, was missing and they haven't heard from
her i n several days.

After, urn, patrol deputy had taken the
i n i t i a l information, excuse me, she had contacted
me and requested my assistance, urn, in attempting

to locate Teresa.
Q All r i g h t , And, urn, from that point on have you

been involved i n the case?
A I have. Yes.
Q Now, there's been same, uh, discussion, uh, both
by, urn, S p e c i a l Agent Fassbender and o t h e r s ,

about your r o l e as one of the lead investigators
in this c a s e . Tell u s when that occurred?
A Sure. Urn, on November 5, when the vehicle was
discovered, urn, on the Avery Salvage Yard p r o p e r t y

uh, we were requested by Manitowoc County to lead the
investigation.
At t h a t point when we realized how big
and how massive the s a l v a g e yard was, n o t only
the s a l v a g e y a r d but a l l the residences, uh, the
outbuildings, a l l the p r o p e r t y that s u r r o u n d e d
it, urn, we realized that it was a little more

than our Department could handle on its own. Urn,
at that point we contacted the, uh, Wisconsin
Department of Justice and requested their
assistance.
Q And who responded on behalf of the Department of
Justice?
A Uh, at t h a t t i m e , uh, Agent Tom Fassbender, who you,
urn, heard e a r l i e r in the week testify, urn, d i d

respond, urn, as well as several o t h e r agents from t h e
Department. Urn, a t that point our Department was
handed the investigation, and myself and Agent
Fassbender were named the lead investigators of the
corn -- of the, uh -- of this case.
Q All r i g h t . And, urn, let's set that aside f o r a

moment. And in the time we have, urn, this
a f t e r n o o n , I'd l i k e to focus your attention on a
particular part of your investigation in this
case, a l l r i g h t ? Specifically, that is w i t h

respect to, uh, your interview, uh, i n context
with a young woman by t h e name of Kayla Avery.
A11 right.
Specifically, urn, directing y o u r
attention to February 20, 2006, on that
particular day, d i d you have, uh, an opportunity
to interview Kayla Avery?
A I did. Urn, myself, along with a female detective at
our D e p a r t m e n t by the name of, uh, Wendy Baldwin, had
went to, urn, the Avery property, which would be t h e
Earl and Candy Avery p r o p e r t y , urn, to interview

Kayla .
Our purpose for going there was because
we had s o m e information from a n o t h e r person,
which we had interviewed, that Kayla had
information about Steve Avery. Our purpose f o r
going there was to interview Kayla in reference

to Steve Avery.
Q All r i g h t . And at some point during that

interview d i d t h e discussion change focus from
Steve Avery to Brendan Dassey?

A Yes. Urn, the interview s t a r t e d out about Steve
Avery, and Kayla was talking about her relationship
with S t e v e Avery. And j u s t about at the e n d of that
interview, Kayla, uh, out of t h e blue, basically,
189
came o u t and told u s t h a t , uh, s h e had a cousin by
the name of B r e n d a n , and that Brendan w a s , q u o t e ,

a c t i n g up lately.
So we asked Kayla what s h e meant by

Brendan a c t i n g up l a t e l y . At that point Kayla
told us that Brendan would just stare i n t o space
and start crying, basically, uncontrollably. She
also told us that Brendan had -- had lost
approximately, what she estimated to be, about 40
pounds.
NOW, based on this information, what did you
decide to do?
Well, after looking at that i n f o m a t i o n , urn, and
reviewing other interviews that were done, we decided
t h a t , urn, w e needed t o t a l k t o Brendan a g a i n .
And d i d you t a l k to him?
We did. Yes.
And when d i d you talk to Brendan a g a i n ?
Urn, m y s e l f a n d Agent Fassbender i n t e r v i e w e d B r e n d a n
on F e b r u a r y 27 of 2 0 0 6 .
All r i g h t . Now, before we get i n t o the d e t a i l s

of that, I have a f e w more questions relative to
Kayla Avery. On this December 2 0 , 2006 interview
of Kayla, who was present?
It had a c t u a l l y been February.

Q Excuse me. I'm s o r r y . February 2 0 ?
A Urn, Kayla's -- Kayla was p r e s e n t . T h e r e was -- there
was two of u s investigators, m y s e l f and Wendy
Baldwin, K a y l a , her mother, Candy, and her father,
Earl.
Q All right. And, urn, d i d t h e r e come a time where
you reinterviewed Kayla Avery?
A We did. Urn, s h o r t l y a f t e r Brendan w a s a r r e s t e d ,
actually, we interviewed K a y l a a g a i n , and that would
have been on March -- I believe it was March 7 of
2006.
Q All r i g h t . And what was the reason for, um,
revisiting or reinterviewing Kayla Avery?
A Well, I t a k e you back a l i t t l e bit, uh, shortly
a f t e r , uh, Brendan was arrested, and I believe would
have been on, like, February 28, we had r e c e i v e d a
c a l l f r o m the Mishicot School District.
Urn, t w o of the c o u n s e l o r s at t h e
Mishicot School District, a f t e r hearing that
Brendan had been arrested, had called and
r e p o r t e d t h a t they may have some information in
reference to t h e Teresa Hal -- Teresa Halbach,
uh, homicide.
Q A l l right. And, a s s u c h , d i d you then respond to
the school to interview the counselors?

A We did. Urn, again, myself a n d Agent Fassbender went
to the school the following day, r i g h t away i n t h e
morning, uh, where we met with, uh, t w o c o u n s e l o r s ,
uh, Mrs. Brandt, and I believe it was a
Mrs. Bamgartner.
Q All right. And you interviewed them?

A We d i d . Yes.
Q A f t e r interviewing them, where d i d you go next?
A Well, a f t e r getting the information, urn, we thought
w e needed t o go back and talk to Brendan ag -- excuse

me -- Kayla again.
Q A14 right. Did you, in fact, go back and
reinterview Kayla Avery?

A We did. We -- Actually, a f t e r interviewing the t w o
counselors, w e made phone c o n t a c t with, urn, Kayla's

mother and informed her that, urn, we had been at the
school and that we needed t o talk with Kayla again.
And w e actually s e t up a n a p p o i n t m e n t with Kayla's
mother, and Kayla's mother, Candy, invited us, urn, to

h e r residence. Urn, so waited for Kayla to come home
from school, and t h e n we went over to the Avery
residence, and, uh, again, interviewed Kayla in the
presence of h e r mother, again, and h e r f a t h e r .
Q A11 right, Uh, was h e r mother present f o r the

e n t i r e conversation?
A Her mother was. Uh, Candy Avesy was present for t h e
e n t i r e conversation w i t h K a y l a . Urn, her father,
Earl, was in and out.
Q All right. And during that interview with Kayla

Avery, did you discuss w i t h her, urn, the report
that Brendan Dassey told her h e had s e e n body

p a r t s i n a fire behind Steven's garage?
A We did. Yes.
Q A n d what d i d she say about that?
A Well, Kayla came o u t a n d told us q u i t e a f e w t h i n g s
at that point. Urn, basically, s h e first broke down
c r y i n g , and indicated to us, that, urn, she had
l e a r n e d from h e r c o u s i n , Brendan, that, urn -- she
stated t h a t she had l e a r n e d this i n a b o u t December
a r o u n d t h e t i m e there was a birthday p a r t y t h a t t h e y
w e r e both a t a t Kayla's house, and that Kayla --

correction -- Brendan had t o l d K a y l a t h a t h e had went
and got the mail, and went over to Steven A v e r y b s
residence, and went into the residence, and observed

Teresa Halbach pinned up in Steve Avery's bedroom.
She w e n t on t o tell u s a c o u p l e other
things. Urn, she told us t h a t Brendan had t o l d
her t h a t a f t e r h e had s a w Teresa Halbach pinned
up in the bedroom, that he exited the residence,
and while leaving Steve Averyfs residence, h e
193
h e a r d screaming coming from Steve Avery's
residence.
Kayla went on to tell us how, um -- She
had mentioned Brendan being o u t a t the fire on

Halloween night, and s h e a l s o told us t h a t her
and h e r mother had seen the f i r e on Halloween
night,
Kayla w e n t on to tell us how B r e n d a n
described seeing body parts later t h a t day, or
t h a t evening, in the fire b e h i n d S t e v e Avery's
residence.
Q Now, during -- during the, urn, questioning of
K a y l a Avery e a r l i e r this week, a statement,
E x h i b i t No. 1 6 3 , was shown to h e r . Are you
familiar with t h a t ?
A I am. Yes.
Q All r i g h t . Was that statement generated by h e r ?

A That's c o r r e c t . Kayla wrote o u t that statement on
h e r own.
Q All s i g h t . And i s that -- was t h a t statement

written on t h i s day, March 7 , 2006?
A Yes.
Q During t h e , urn, interview, uh, at Kayla's home,

did she appear c o n f u s e d at a l l ? Unsure of what
she was telling you?
A No, s h e did not.
Q Was she upset?

A Yes, she was upset.
Q Did it appear to you t h a t t h i s was something e a s y

for her to tell you about?
A No. Obviously, n o t . I mean, Like I explained
b e f o r e , she, urn -- s h e had broke down crying, and was
visibly upset when she was telling us about this
information.
Q All right. Now, I want to b a c k up a little b i t

here. R e t u r n i n g , then, three weeks earlier --
two weeks earlier, e x c u s e me, to that February 20
interview, y o u r first e n c o u n t e r w i t h Kayla Avery,
at that particular point in the investigation

what plans, if any, did you investigators have
relative to s p e a k i n g w i t h o t h e r members o f the
A v e r y family?
A Let me j u s t back up a little b i t . We w e r e
constantly, as investigators, have meetings about
this case and where we should go w i t h it, what we
should be doing.
Urn, b e c a u s e of the enormity of the c a s e ,
we would g e t leads in a11 the time. There would
be people calling in, look at this, look at that.
Urn, what we decided that we needed to do in order

to do a thorough investigation, we needed to go
back and i n t e r v i e w everybody who h a d access or
who lived on that p r o p e r t y .
Urn, I felt, a n d I -- I think I can speak
f o r Mr. Fassbender, that I don't believe we --

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Objection. Speaking
for another person, Judge. I t h i n k the witness

c a n o n l y s p e a k f o r himself.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Sustained. Speak
for yourself.
THE WITNESS: Certainly. I felt that we
needed to -- In order to do a t h o r o u g h
investigation, we needed to go back and t a l k to
everybody who lived on that property.
Q (By Attorney Fallon) All right. And so around

t h a t time was t h a t the p l a n ?
A Yes. Absolutely was.
Q Based on t h e , um -- At that particular point in
time c o u l d you say, from a n investigative p o i n t
of view, that Brendan Dassey was at all a

suspect?
A No. Uh, we didn't consider him a s u s p e c t a n y more
than we considered anybody e l s e at that point as a
suspect, No.
Q A11 right. Now, who was the f i r s t one of the

family members to be reinterviewed?
A I can't recall exactly which one, but 1 can say
that -- And -- And if I c a n back up a little b i t

again?
Q Sure.
A Urn, we not only felt the people on that -- that lived
there, we thought the extended family, i. e . , Kayla,
and E a r l , and Candy, and their children should be
interviewed as w e l l . S o by my recollection, it w a s
probably, urn, Kayla, most likely.
Q All right. And, uh, during t h e course, d i d you,

in fact, go back and reinterview a, urn, urn --
most, if n o t , a l l , of the immediate a n d e x t e n d e d
family?
A I can t e l l you everybody t h a t l i v e d on t h a t p r o p e r t y ,
and the extended family, as far as we knew i t , s u c h
as, Earl, Candy, and their children, were

reinterviewed. Yes.
Q All r i g h t . I n terms of the decision to

reinterview Brendan Dassey on February 27, urn,
w a s there a n y p a r t i c u l a r reason that o c c u r r e d a t l
o r a r o u n d that time?
A Yes. Urn, after receiving information from Kayla on
the 20th of February, obviously, the loss of weight,
the uncontrollable crying, are signs that we look
197
for. I mean, it's a change in behavior. It's --
it's not normal f o r a 1 6 - y e a r - o l d boy to be just
crying uncontrollably and j u s t lose t h a t t y p e of
weight. So, obviously, that's something we l o o k for,

And, f o r lack of a b e t t e r word, it k i n d
of moved into the f r o n t of the line, and we
needed to -- we needed to interview him and talk

to him.
Q Now, and a t t h a t particular point did you have
some suspicion as to what may be causing t h e

weight loss and change in b e h a v i o r ? I mean,
practically s p e a k i n g ?
A Well, a b s o l u t e l y . I mean, a t that point, urn, we felt
h e knew more than he was telling us. And -- and
I
we -- we do a lot of o t h e r things before we go
interview people. We review prior interviews, such
as the gentleman's interview that was sitting here
p r i o r to m e . Marinette County's i n t e r v i e w . I mean,

review t h a t . And we take a Look at what he told
them. There a r e t h i n g s in there that didn't quite

f i t either.
So you t a k e some of t h e t h i n g s that he
told the Marinette officers that just didn't seem
to fit. And then his, uh, t h e l o s i n g weight, and
the uncontrollable crying. Obviously, that, uh,
198
points you i n a d i r e c t i o n you w a n t to g o . He's
somebody you need to t a l k to.
All r i g h t .
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, at t h i s
particular p o i n t I t h i n k it's time to take that

break.
THE COURT: I t h i n k -- Yeah. This would
appear to be a good b r e a k point time. We'll

a d j o u r n f o r the day. Uh, l a d i e s and gentlemen,
1'11 remind you, don't t a l k a b o u t this among
y o u r s e l v e s o r with anyone e l s e . We'll convene

tomorrow at 8 : 3 0 .
( C o u r t stands a d j o u r n e d at 4 : 2 6 p . m . )
STATE OF WISCONSIN )
13s.
COUNTY OF MANITOWOC )
I, J e n n i f e r K. Hau, O f f i c i a l Court
Reporter for C i r c u i t Court B r a n c h 3 and the State
of W i s c o n s i n , do hereby c e r t i f y t h a t I r e p o r t e d
the f o r e g o i n g matter a n d that t h e foregoing
t r a n s c r i p t h a s been carefully prepared by me with
my computerized stenographic notes as t a k e n by m e

i n m a c h i n e s h o r t h a n d , and by c o m p u t e r - a s s i s t e d
t r a n s c r i p t i o n t h e r e a f t e r t r a n s c r i b e d , and that it
is a t r u e a n d correct transcript o f t h e
proceedings had i n s a i d m a t t e r to the best of my
knowledge and ability.
Dated t h i s / / " " d a y of , r l , ~ ;

, , b , 2007.
,y
r l ' ? ~ , ? L , /J + & ,?'&,)/
'l
Jennifer K. ' ~ d u ,RPR
I Official Court Reporter
200
10:50 a.m [ I ] 85118
10th [3] 18117 40114 4114 17 8116 8/23 10/6 10113
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AutoTrader-Magazine 111 7/17 benefit (41 2212 92/610516 159121 breakdown [ I ] 38116
average [5] 29117 29124 30K8 30123 besides [Z] 13314 13413 BRENDAN [87] I16 6123 513 5110 8118
1401% best [8] 1818 22/23 16019 11614 138t9 19/20 1018 10120 104125 10511 106123
Avery 1741 7119 9R 1018 1019 10118 15419 158114 200113 106l25 10713 10718 f 07114 107123
10121 21175711763Et8 102116102119 beveled[2] 86198817 10915 12119 12216 122112 12511 126EI
102121 103110 103115 103125 10415 beveling 161 8019 80118 94M 94110 12919 13016 13018 130117 130M3
105123 12017 120118 120118 120120 94116 9711 $32116 13316 13317 133lt4 133122
121120 122113 122118 12314 12314 big [ I ] 18813 13413 138114 13912 14515 14712 148/8
123125 124121 12913 129110 129112 bi11 [2] 713 7117 148120 149134 149123 15018 155110
129/23 132/16 13915 13916 164/6 biologicaI [2] 58118 89113 155111 3 55/24 157124 158118 158124
164125 16511 16515 171116 178117 birthday [ I ] 193115 15915 160121 161111 662117 16313
178127 178118 17913 17913 17917 bit [ I 81 12124 1414 18111 2014 22116 16316 165124 167/18 16913 169111
179112 179E19 180116 184113 184122 31116 5119 57122 6016 7214 9217 103117 169115 170112 17111 171117 17413
184123 18512 185112 187125 18912 107115 176113 191114 195110 195118 17416 178117 179121 189/21 19012
18917 189110 189111 189116 189118 19713 190J2 19015 I9016 1901%190115 19012 8
189121 189123 189124 190123 191I7 black [ I ] 30115 190119 19118 191115 191120 192170
192113 192/13 I92121 19311 19315 blackened [ I ] 20114 4 93J6 193113 193/17 193122 f 9414
194113 195113 195117 blacktop [I]2313 19418 196120 197120
Avery's 1101 90123 91/23 104J4 13515 blade [I] 92112 bridge [3] 6916 7215 72117
177111 193118 193120 193125 19411 bleed 111 33123 bright [5] 30S18 8712 8715 8819 11417
194110 'blood 141 33124 60123 60125 7918 British 111 29114
awaiting [ I ] 56116 blows 171 84113 broadcast 121 11416 116/1
away [8] 714 7118 2719 4616 48115 9211 blue [4] 6125 7114 8124 189125 broke [Z] 193111 395l7
137110 19212 blunt [ I ] 69/23 broken 111 25/7
board [I43 1618 51117 51119 51120 brother 181 8117 105117 12316 124124
€3 51/20 51/23 5211 5212 52/25415 54121 138117 161112 I61119 161122
ba [ I ] 41122 54122 54124 9916 brought [ I 81 2211 1 15212 15218 152ElCI
Bachelor's 121 14R 51114 boards [ I ] 1615 15211I 153110 153114 15514 15811
background [ I ] 5119 Bobby [6] 8116 8118 8122 913 918 9114 15812 15816 7 5817 16614 4 7216 17218
backseat [4] 117/25 12519 143123 bodies [2] 33116 6518 172112 172118 173120
142113 body (331 32118 32/22 3312 33113 33114 Bryan [4] 104124 10713 10715 12317
bad [3] 156Q4 15714 16519 33119 33121 33122 33123 33124 3414 BTU [3]29113 3011 3015
bag [1] 96/13 3415 34111 34/21 34124 3517 3518 35116 BTUs [3] 2919 29120 38115
balance [ I ] 118123 35122 61124 6214 6214 6216 6515 6713 buildup [ I ] 72120
Baldwin [46] 10312 10711 107113 3 09/2 90125 9114 91E l 3 96123 125112 125112 bulk 11j 10213
11217 12013 12115 126125 128116 I9316 19419 bullet [2] 9414 94M2
128117 128120 13111 137112 137122 body's 111 34123 bunch [ I ] 132111
138113 14317 143111 35019 150E12 bond [ I ] 23113 Bureau [8] 1211 1216 12111 13/3 1311 I
1501f815~11215111515'tll815215 bonded[1]2314 14117 2211 9316
152/7 152110 153% 155110 157124 bone [85] 19119 2013 20117 25119 26115 burglaries [ I ] 186125
158117 15911 15915 160119 18111 16115 4112 41118 5218 52120 52121 52/22 5817 Burial 121 50l7 52H 8
161119 162116 165123 167112 168124 5818 5819 58111 59119 60116 60118 burials [ I ] 5412
169115169123170161781818919~91/4 601206012161126113611361136114 burn[60] i011717/171812181418112
Baldwin's 131 142114 3 5312 17719 6114 61122 67124 6811 68118 6914 69/23 18121 2118 21116 21118 22121 2312
ball 161 20110 2011 1 2416 2411741122 7011 7015 72120 7315 77115 77/76 79116 2311 f 23/15 24/10 24/24 2711 27117
65121 79178 79119 79120 79122 8011 1 80113 28121 2912 2916 32123 3315 3311 1 3515
ball-like [ I ] 65/21 80J13 81/17 8214 8 3 4 83121 83125 8412 35116 35119 36117 3711 38122 3918
Ballpark 111 14213 8413 8413 8418 84112 84121 8514 8615 39118 39117 39/18 39120 4015 4212 42M
bang 131 123122 123123 123123 8616 8617 8718 87117 8815 8811 1 88118 4216 42118 4519 4712 47116 47124 4811
Barb [6] 811 7 8119 912 1017 1011 5 89114 9015 9016 90125 9119 91113 9214 48/7 48117 48119 5919 7815 90123 91123
178118 9218 9211 1 92113 92123 92125 9311 1 9211 9214 92110 92110 98/69816 9818
barrel [3] 92110 92/11 120123 9413 9411 1 94/17 94118 95118 99/15 98113 120123
barrels [5E 2713 7 9214 9816 9818 98113 bones [29] 6018 6311 7 65124 6611 6614 burned [24] 19R4 2513 26120 26124
Baumgartner [ I ] 19215 681'4 6816 6817 1 6917 70t2 SOM 70124 2719 2816 28116 4315 4411 45/25 45125
beach [ I ] 36/18 7212 7314 78118 78119 78120 79118 8112 5817 5818 58111 601j 7 62114 66118
bear [ I ] 165174 83114 86118 9115 92115 92116 92116 77124 7812 83113 91117 92111 92123
beautiful [2] 150114 I50120 93113 95/25 9615 9611 1 92/24
bedroom [2] 193120 193124 bony [ I ] 8411 burning [28] 2317 28120 30110 30116
beginnings [I] 65115 bottom [ I 01 22125 2311 36119 3712 30125 3119 31110 38113 4516 4517 4518
behavior 121 19811 198111 151112 15914 161118 161120 16617 45120 4615 531q7 61122 6218 6418 7313
behind [7] 10117 63/18 90123 91/23 169/22 7711 7813 7817 89124 9015 93113 94118
176120 14317 194110 Bourbonnais [ I ] 53W 96123 9719 97111.
belabor [ I j 48112 box [ I 61 5711 5714 6017 6016 67110 71/3 burns [I] 29110
believed [5] ? 9118 8014 144122 144124 7119 77113 95117 95118 95120 9612 9618 bus (121 133116 13416 134l20 134120
157124 9617 1 96112 96115 134124 f5016 150114 150119 15111
believing I21 16112 161125 boy [ I ] 19812 153119 16514 f71121
belt [ I ] 31118 boyfriend [ I ] 1017 business 121 16016 184114
126118 157111 175113 deceptive [5] 159116 16013 $6016 16118
decide [Z] 105125 190112

Crow [2] 61/18 61119 decided [4] 21/3 13114 190114 195125
contrary [I]12414
contrast [I]72115
contributed t l ] 9812
8818 89119 9417

defects [2] 89123 9718
defendant [I43 lff 1120 1122 1124 8118
1OS8 105117 10717 107123 121112
7 16122 18211 9 185/2 1
dark-colored [I]10519 51114 51J15 93/22 9416 94114 94120

darkened [ I ] 4017
darkening [ I ] 3719
126l7 15814 157/18 174115 174/20
10311 10318 127121 131121 14318 department [38] 11M4 1213 1217 1316
14114 18119 Z 9111 21117 40110 4011 5
40122 10114 10116 101115 10l/f8 10218
10219 102115 102125 T 0311 10318 104/9
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3 26119 135119 13716 13819 14413
145113 $45116 14611 146113 146115
14714 14717 147125 150(3 15313 T53/4
154111 7 54112 155l20 15323 15614
destruction [3] 61112 6214 6 3 19 15616 157110 15711 9 157120 160116
destructive [ I ] 62116 161115 161117 163/23 16411 16414
detached ll] 10117 165113 7 73/8 173113 1 73115 17518
detailed [ I ] 41110 displeasure [5] 14514 14518 145112 18016 18018 18113 f8T113 181175
details [3] 163123 165/7 190121
detective 1451 17115 100113 1 0419 distance [ I ] 116f10 edge (51 69/22 72JB 7211 5 72/21 78/22
101110 101122 101114 30312 10711 distillance 121 2315 231f 1 edges [3] 9014 9016 9017
107113 10912 11216 112n T13/24
14316 74616 146115 147l7 151112
EISENBERG [6] 319 49/18 49/20 49125
112116 11812 162123 17312 I95121 elaborate [I]14/24

elapsed [I] 141122
elected [2] 54121 54124
emotion [ I ] t 7715
emotional [I]169110
emphasis [1] 114/21
172/14 175/24
encounter [ l ] 195113
energy [ I I ] 2917 29110 2911 I29115

directed [3] I7116 87/25 I3763 9 29120 3016 38119 4611 9 46123 4716
directing [9] 9/19 16123 1713 37121 5615
87122 151111 16616 18914
50122 52121 56124
engaged [4] 123116 223122 12411 12415
enormity [ I ] 195122
desagree [3] 157122 169/13 172121
dtsappears [ t ] 6114 1 19115 19313 19718
disappoint [ I ] 155125
d~sappointed[I]155116
drsaster [4] 52124 52/25 5312 53/13
discovered [I]187125
discrete [ I ] 96121
discuss [3] 127111 I7011 1 19315
10015 10017 1T 2110 112115 112124 180.V 180112 180125 18118 4 01111
186/1 188/12 196115 199/4
133113 13916 195117 19711 19717

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far [ I I]48/20 9717 5 124119 13112
134124 146125 153123 159117 163l2
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fashion [5] 44119 152116 161111 172120
Explosives [ I ] 14118
examine [ I 61 26/32613 3 4118 52/20 118124 174116 190122 193110

53115 56114 56125 57/24 8013 62112
62/14 63/25 65114 68/12 81/14 82122
examined 1231 11114 40125 41116 49/22 7413 7612 8 97119
5114 51/6 62/22 63/23 64/18 64/21 7114
71112 75116 75120 77/12 8112 8311 8316
90/390/10 97/24 100119 f 86/5
Fahrenheit [ I ] 29116
excess 121 1411 2818

exchange 131, 150115 15515 17614
excuse [ I I ] 20122 21124 4419 6912
75112 115113 184116 I87114 19111
19211I3 ? 95/12
executed [ I ] 104115
13119 13121 13122 14110 14/16 14/23
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8814 8815 8815 9111 92114 9313
12717 170122 184114 186120
142114 15118 19816

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34/21 3514 3514 35112 35112 35117

35120 37120 3817 3811 3 43124 43125
45/22 4614 4714 4715 4717 48121
full 141 3115 4518 45123 1 50124

tu lly [2] 4211 9 45124
functions 171 1611
furnace [3] 29124 3012 3016
foregoing 121 200/?20017
forehead 121 68/2 8914
foremost [I] 115122
forensic [44] 5018 5011 0 5011 1 51117
56120 51124 52112 5416 54115 54/22
5512 5519 55110 55113 5612 5812 5814
6119 61112 61116 6218 6219 6412 64/25
65/10 69/12 73111 73/21 73/25 7413
increase [2] 169111 169117
increased 111 4711 1
increasing [ I ] 61121
increasingly [ I ] 6213
indentation 111 79123
heavy [Z] 34/19 69/23

height 131 30119 44116 18212
held 141 5211 1 5415 91115 186/19 139125 14216 142112 14412 144114
here's [2] 72116 87/2 I44114 14516 14618 I4618 146122 I5315 15519 187114
hereby [ I ] 20016 147'110 147120 149117 149M0 15112 initially [8] 5618 6011 6013 71110 71111
herein [4] 11113 49/21 1ISOEi8 18614 .152/9 153/12 156M 156/13 156118 81/13 81/18 179119
hiding [ I ] 12419 15917 159122 159125 16012 160110 injured [ I ] 17713
high 121 1911 22/10 160t10 16714 169125 I7015 172122 injury [3] 33/22 7514 9419
higher 121 32123 4415 173115 175115 175122 177125 178110 inner [31, 8417 12412 12418
highlight pl] 71124 181124 182121 182123 186114 19111 inquire [21 132115 145120
highlighted 121 11417 114118 l've [ I 41 1215 14114 16M2. 16/20 16/21 inquired [I] 167112
highlighter[5]115111116115117/21 19Q4241928116481f355178116 inquiries [ I ] 143113
118!4 11815 11911 a 12417 125/15 inqurry [2] 14519 152119
highlighting [4] 11415 11513 135125 i.e [2] 172119 19717 inside [ I 61 8123 2513 7 25117 7917 79112
148117 lAA1 [4] 14118 1511 15112 1611 8019 8011 I80115 80119 8112 8415 8418
himself [l] 19618 idea [Is] 110112 11613 121115 14016 86125 88/18 120124 151117
hip [ I ] 6611 140111 140114 14113 14116 14119 inspected [ I ] 1912
hred [ I ] 18419 143119 160112 16614 16812 176120 inspection 111 19113
Historical [2] 5015 52118 17711 instance [7] 29124 4711 7 43125 4811 7
history [ I ] 55/22 identfiable [2] 60116 6315 73116 74114 a 7 6 n
hit [ I ] 7513 identification [9] 811 0 1012 11/3 55115 instruct 121 15/2 8 11914
hold 191 1416 51/2 3 51114 93/21 9415 61110 6511 10015 178112 185117 instruction [ I 01 5124 2 1515 116120
94113 94/20 94125 15319 identified [ I 81 25112 25119 2612 62114 116/23 117f2 11719 117/13 117115
Holstein [ I ] 6111 TO125 80119 8117 81115 83114 8513 8516 I18116 It 9112
ham [ I ] 80(6 8911 3 90122 9116 92/30 9514 95/24 instructions [ I ] 5/15
home [89 29125 3013 3014 3017 17.112 105113 intend [ I ] 11211
17618 192120 194123 identifier [2] 7116 7119 inlensified [ I ] 47112
homicidal [ I21 75121 75122 7718 7811 identify [ I 33 915 1913 52120 53/14 53123 intensity I221 1911 22110 28122 2913
7819 7911 79125 8016 8919 94/24 96117 5713 6313 63121 72112 9114 9319 10617 2916 30117 38122 43121 44117 44125
96120 106111 4514 45/21 4617 46115 47116 47/24 4811
homicide [8] J5l7 75120 99121 101119 identifying [Z] 53125 69110 4818 4811 8 48120 48125 4911
101122 121/19 187/2 I91123 identity [ I ] 7816 intensive [2] 4618 46121
HON [ I ] 1111 ignited [ I ] 38111 intentionally [I ] 16017
honeycomb [3] 80113 8415 84/11 ignore [ I ] 14718 interaction [2] 124121 17111
honeycomb-looking 111 8011 3 ill Ill 159121 interacttons [I] 171117
Honor [ I 61 515 49114 ? 1018 111118 Illinois [ I ] 5316 interest [2] 83124 89116
113122 125119 126110 145W 945113 illit [ f ] 71110 interior [ I ] 59/25
14715 17519 18016 18114 182112 t 8314 illustrate [ I ] 24/14 intermediate [ I1 84111
19914 image [6] 6712 67/18 84124 88/21 88123 internal f6]7814 8 801& 80117 9412 94110
hoops [ I ] 51/22 88124 94116
hope [3] 7216 7211 8 176119 imagine [2] 2313 53118 internally [2] 8619 8816
hor~zontal[ I ] 4411 9 immediate [ I ] 197113 International [5] 14111 t4f19 14125 2511
Hospital [ I ] 82116 immediately [4] 43110 5311 1 8014 i5619 1619
host [ I ] 3419 impact [ I ] 34/10 interpose [I
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hours [q 2218 32121 35122 411%133Q impeded [ I ] 44122 interpretation [ I ] 5218
3 3315 impenetrable [ I j 8916 interpreted [ I ] 2611 1
house [3] 35118 171122 193116 implement [ I ] 31110 interrupt [ I ] 8518
human [42] 16118 30125 32/18 33114 implored [ I ] 18115 interrupted [ I ] 15413
morphology 121 69/16TO11
Mortuary [I]5312
mother [9]912 19114 192116 192119
1 92/19192123 t 92124 7 931f 19416
124114 140125 157/10158/6163f13

173119 174122 17711 7 17913 1 79fi 2
metacarpal [I1 92114

metacarpals [l] 91I9
metal [4] 2412 2713 2718 2711 3 1 24/i 4 1 74122 17711 7
metallurgic [I] 82/14 Mr. Dassey's [4] 10517 12319 123/14
Mr.Edel [I]1 18125
Mr. Edelstein [4] 113120 1 15B 1 17112
112111 18612 18613 18619 61R 6318 6616 72/22107/1210919
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144124 14711 14815 157121 158123

16216 163110 167110 169114
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mistake [I] 16911
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meant [2] 17516 190/4 momentary [l] 1 16/14
measure [Z] 4711 4 7316
mechanism 121 73/207411 1
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one [ I 091 511 5 811 1 8112 8116 1013 1016
1114 15/24 20116 2712 2918 29116 2911 6
29119 3017 30110 3116 31110 33/13
34113 35119 39110 4211 4218 44121
46116 46/21 46122 47116 4813 4815
48/18 51117 5211 53/12 56120 61123
6212 63110 6712 68110 69117 73/20
71121 74123 7716 77113 77118 78124
0-c-~i-p-i-t-a-l[I] 83/22 81/10 83/13 86/11 86116 86/23 &7/2
8713 8714 87120 87120 87121 9111 9f 14
9213 92117 92123 9315 98113 9914
105125 1(36121 108115 ? 10114 110115
110121 11118 11214 11618 116125
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newspapers [3] 3318 3319 33110 137/19 737121 137123 13813 138123
157121 158112 16519 16519 177114

180119 184M 18716 187122 196125
one-degree 1/41 29/16

One-five-zero [ I ] 92123
one-gallon [Z] 4813 4815
None [ I ] 112118 openings [I] 6613

nonhuman [3] 53115 5819 77115 obstruction [ I ] 44123 openness [I]125114
nonverbal [5] 10919 109111 109118 obtain [5] 93/14 93115 93M6 I20116 Operational [l] 5312
109120 1 1011 124114 opinion 1271 37115 9115 62113 75114
nonverbal-type ['I] 109118 obtained (31 91122 13514 136115 7517 8 75119 7718 77125 79125 9012
noon [5] 2112 10216 10316 f 19/25 137/5 obvious [ I ] 134117 93/20 83122 94/2 9415 9417 O 9414 3
Norm [ I ] 518 obviously 191 33110 40118 135l22 94116 94120 94123 94125 96124 9714
normal [ I ] 19812 145122 18311 19516 197124 29814 9811 9919 99119 155173 156125
normally [ I ] 3812 198125 opinions [3] 51/2 73116 73119
NORMAN [ I ] 1117 occasion [8] 52119 53/14 53/20 70IQ opportunities [ I J 14122
Narth 121 1517 15115 7716 98/11 10217 177115 opportunity [ I 31 18125 2613 26113 6013
Nos [I] 182115 occasions [5] 5314 98/11 13015 16319 65118 68112 75124 77114 122122 127111
nose 151 6814 6915 6917 7215 72117 I84114 13115 131/7 18916
notably 121 5112 52114 occipital [I 0) 83121 83125 8412 8418 opposed [ I ] 4 14121
notation [ I ] 7112 8617 8815 88118 89120 94111 94117 orange [ I ] 30118
note [ I ] 65115 occupants [3] 104118 104121 105125 order [16] 16/13 17/23 1916 25MI 3017
noted [ I ] 12618 occupation [ l ] 5014 33118 35116 35120 35122 51124 124112
notes[lOJ 128111136/213616136/10 occur[l] 12114 133114 170113 174122 195125 196112
136114 136118 136t19 1JOJ16 171/1 occurred r/j 59.42 94118 97/8 97/11 ordinarily 12) 124115 136111
20019 13518 f 87123 197121 organic [ I ] 6112
noteworthy [ I ] 54111 occurring [3] 87114 87/16 891t 2 organization [ I ] 1512
noticed [3] 25116 8118 125111 October [ I 61 6117 716 8116 8123 1016 orient [ f ] 67121
notron [2]171124 172110 10173 16512 16515 18412 184110 18411 1 orientation [2] 34121 43/24
November 1241 1711 3915 50123 5619 184115 184116 184116 7 84118 184121 oriented [ I ] 30120
5612 8 6012 6014 86117 88114 10216 October 1O [ I ] 184118 origin [4] 12/16 5714 9 3 f l 93110
1 1411 119124 120/9 12518 126122 12715 October 22 [ I ] 184116 originated [ I ] 98/12
14011 16218 178122 178122 18012 18715 October 31 [9] 611 7 8/16 8123 1016 0th 111 34112
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November 10 [I] 6014 odor [ I ] 2315 our [31j 12117 1613 161'13 I713 22J2
November 17 [2] 86117 88114 offer [2] 156121 18111 33116 37119 6515 6518 65123 79120
November 3 111 18716 offered [2] 9918 182119 79122 102114 102/19 108117 112111
November 5 121 178/22 187124 office 15) 1713 52114 56116 102114 120115 140113 140116 741112 147124
November 6 [4] 119124 12715 178122 147112 15713 18316 186124 '! 8717 187110 18818
18012 o~cer[6]14/912511114111317015 18811718919189113189116
November 9 151 1711 3915 5619 56118 171116 I7216 outbuildings [ I ] 18816
6012 officers [4J 10314 128113 137121 198123 outer [ I ] 8114
nuance [I] 11819 oiTcial 151 214 112112 147111 20014 outside [ I 11 8/25 9112 80114 88118
nuances [ I ] 't 18110 200119 109116 120139 12111 12816 133122
number I261 819 8116 8121 1016 10/11 oftentimes [ I ] 173116 148117 $65/25
13112 13125 3212 32121 3613 42116 oil [ I j 2719 outward 121 44119 44122
43120 55114 6814 9318 9914 99111 13013 oils [ I ] 23114 overemphasis [ I ] 116117
73/23 163120 163125 175115 18412 old [2] 139/10 198R overemphasizes 12) 115/25 116173
18417 184119 18517 older [4] 52122 64121 65117 6616 overruled 121 135117 180110
pointer [3] 67/7 7914 83123
pointing [2] 7213 8217
personalty [2] 130116 154119 points [3] 127115 144123 19911 I
personnel [ I ] 39113 police [8] 1 4 9 21H7 107/9 13414

persons [5] 58120 2 32/f 176117 177123 141113 141116 171116 'I7216
polish 121 81/22 8212
polyurethane [2] 3815 3816
Pontiac [8] 104J4 I30122 'I31112 13515
136116 136122 137117 137120
porcelain [2] 61/5 61/8
portion [ I61 3712 39/25 68115 68117
9 6817 8 6911 6913 8114 84111 84111 92123
111121 114118 114120 135117 151113
portions [ I ] 117123
position [2] 52117 108116
packaged [2] 96ff 961t 0 0 187ff 192115 positioning [I1 79113
packaging [ I ] 3811 positions [ I ] 52111
6811'4 96112 possible I41 4312 58122 92113 1 1615
postcranial [41 64E15 90117 90118 90122
123 59112 59/21 poster [2] 177124 17812
16616 167125 169120 17416 6011 3 66121 66125 70116 78111 8318 posterior [ I 1 88122
14313 14315 178111 178114 178116 postmortem [ I ] 5916
posture [ I ] 125112
potential [2]28/35 168f20
110 potentially [2] 43122 44125
pound 141 2919 29116 38119 38119
pounds [2] 29118 190110
practrcal 131 4516 5216 I15121
practically [ l ] 198112
12516 practice [S] 154110 16016 16118 136114
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practices [3] 159ff5 l59/16 16013
89120 9413 94117 I25 pre [ I ] 3414
pre-fire [ I ] 3414
precedes [ I ] T 52M2
preceding [ l ] 43110
preeminent [ I 5518
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6115 preliminary[7] 511518/20211340115
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1 premises [ I ] 104117
preparation [ I ] 103113
120118 17814 179120 prepare [3] 55123 136112 17114
parties [2] 617 1 1516 prepared 141 127112 135122 147113
partner [2] 10716 138121 20125 2118 21116 21/49 21122 2216 20018
parts [5] 65112 91110 110113 19317 22/19 22121 22125 2312 23122 23125 preparing [I]7018
19419 2516 27/1 2812 35/66 35119 36117 3711 presence [8] 5911 59118 8312 86120 8915
party [ I ] f 93115 3919 39/17 39118 39120 4015 4017 40117 14912 165124 192123
pass /4] 38125 8716 88112 108113 4212 42/3 4216 42/12 42118 4313 4316 present [22]1519 24117 34119 4312
passenger 171 29117 2911 9 104124 10511 4319 4313 1 43115 43121 63117 7815 43/25 64110 65/14 7319 9815 9817
10913 7 0915 142114 90123 91123 9 T / I 104110 10512 113118 122117 13916 8
passengers [ I ] 105116 place [3] 10718 114122 12913 15017 150112 165122 190124 191M
passing [ $ I 133117 placed [2] 82110 108124 1 I92124 19311
past [2] 131120 16811 placement 121 68113 84/21 presentation [I]121123
pathologist [6]73122 74117 7518 76111 places [3] 6613 114/20 145119 presented [3] 57/25 66117 158118
8211 5 9917 PLAINTIFF [ I ] 1E4 Preservation [Z] 5017 52118
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STATE OF WISCONSIN : CIRCUIT COURT : MANITOWOC COUNTY
BRANCH 3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
TRIAL DAY 5
VS . Case No. 0 6 CF 8 8
BRENDAN R . DASSEY,
DEFENDANT.
DATE : APRIL 20, 2 0 0 7

Circuit C o u r t Judge
APPEaRANCES :
KENNETH R . KRATZ
District Attorney
O n behalf of the State of Wisconsin.
THOMAS J. FALLON
Special Prosecutor
On behalf of the S t a t e of Wisconsin.
NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
On behalf of the S t a t e of Wisconsin.
MARK R . FREMGEN
A t t o r n e y at Law
On behalf of the defendant.
Attorney at Law
O n behalf of t h e d e f e n d a n t .
BRENDAN R . DASSEY
Defendant
Appeared in person.
1 COPY
* * * * * * * *
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Reported by J e n n i f e r K. Hau, RPR
O f f i c i a l Court R e p o r t e r
I N D E X
WITNESSES PAGE
m R K WIEGERT
Direct Examination Cont'd by ATTORNEY FALLON 4-37
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 39-103
EXHIBITS MARKED MOVED ADMITTED
206 16 37 38
207-213 37 38
214 94 94
215
216
2
(Reconvened at 8:36 a.m.; j u r o r s not p r e s e n t . )
THE COURT: Good morning, Counsel. Uh, I'm
g o i n g to call t h e case. It's 06 CF 88, State of

Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey. Appearances, please.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Good morning, Your
Honor. May i t please t h e Court, t h e State
continues in its appearance by Special
Prosecutors, Ken K r a t z , Tom Fallon and N o r m Gahn.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Mark Fremgen

appears with Ray Edelstein. The, uh, defendant
appears in person.
THE COURT: Uh, t h e Court is going to go on

the record before the j u r y -- thanks -- before t h e
j u r y comes in to -- to note that, uh, prior to
coming in here, Counsel and I have had a discussion.
I informed them that o n e of the j u r o r s was having

some health-related issues. Uh, after the
discussion, she is g o i n g to be released. So,
Counsel, is that correct?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes, Judge, that's our
understanding, and we would agree with t h e
Court's assessment to have, uh, h e r excused.
THE COURT: Defense?
THE COURT: All right. B r i n g t h e jury in,
3
ATTORNEY FALLON: Judge, are you going
to read the instruction about the video as well?
THE COURT: I am.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Okay.
THE COURT: Once w e get to it.
( J u r o r s in at 8:39 a . m . )
THE COURT: All right. Be s e a t e d . Is
prosecution ready to proceed?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. We would ask
that the, uh -- Investigator Wiegert retake t h e
stand.
MARa WIEGERT f
called as a witness herein, having been f i r s t duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please s t a t e
your name a n d spell your last name f o r the record.
THE WITNESS: Mark Wiegert, W-i-e-g-e-r-t.
DSRECT EXAMfNATION CONT'D
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q Investigator Wiegert, I believe we left o f f

yesterday a£t e r n o o n , uh, r e g a r d i n g , uh, your
i n t e n d e d interview of the d e f e n d a n t on
February 2 7 . Would you, urn, first of all, tell

us of your plans to interview t h e d e f e n d a n t on
that day?
4
Uh, y e s . Urn, m y s e l f and Agent Fassbender had went to
the M i s h i c o t School System and, uh, that's where we
met w i t h Mr. Dassey that day.
All right. And the, urn -- You, uh, gestured to,
uh, Mr. Dassey. Just, officially, and for the

record, is t h e , uh, Brendan Dassey that you
interviewed on t h a t day and subsequent days
p r e s e n t in c o u r t t o d a y ?
He is. He's seated a t t h e -- t o t h e l e f t -- my left
of his attorney. He's wearing a blue s h i r t and
glasses.
V e r y well.
ATTORNEY FALLON: The record should,
a g a i n , r e f l e c t t h a t t h e , uh, w i t n e s s h a s
identified the defendant.
THE COURT: It will so r e f l e c t .
{By Attorney F a l l o n ) About what time d i d you
arrive at the Mishicot High School on that day,
February 27?
I believe it was about 12:30 or so in the afternoon

when we first g o t to t h e school.
Where did you meet w i t h Mr., uh, Dassey, t h e
defendant?
Uh, w e met with Mr. Dassey i n a c o n f e r e n c e room just

o f f of where t h e o f f i c e f o r the, I believe it's the
high school, would be located.
Q Who else was p r e s e n t ?

A Uh, myself and M r . Fassbender.
Q Did you then, urn, commence an interview of Mr.,

uh, Dassey t h a t day?
A We did. W e did about, urn, h o u r , little over an hour,
interview with Mr. Dassey at t h e school.
Q All r i g h t . And a t t h e , urn, c o n c l u s i o n -- Well,

f i r s t of a l l , tell us, was that interview at all,
urn, memorialized i n any fashion?
A We did do an audiotape. Unfortunately, a l l we had
was one of t h e o l d cassette recorders, and we had
that sitting on a , urn, table between u s , and it -- it
didn't pick up v e r y well. The audio is very poor.
Q All right. At the conclusion of t h e i n t e r v i e w ,

what did you do?
A After the interview, we had contacted, urn District
A t t o r n e y K r a t z to i n f o r m him of w h a t w e had learned
f r o m t h a t interview. Uh, Mr. K r a t z requested that we
memorial -- memorialize this interview in a -- in a
better f a s h i o n . So, urn, a t t h a t p o i n t w e decided --
we made arrangements to go to, uh, Two Rivers P o l i c e

Department where t h e r e would be a videotaped, urn,
i n t e r v i e w done. So that7s what we did.
6
Q All right. What arrangements did you make in
advance to conduct a videotaped interview?
A We actually contacted, urn, Brendan's m o t h e r and, uh,
informed h e r what we wanted to do. Urn --
Q And how d i d s h e respond?
A Barb actually responded to t h e school at that time,
urn, and she rode w i t h myself, Agent Fassbender, and
Brendan to Two R i v e r s Police Department a l l in the
same c a r . We gave her a ride there.
Q And, urn, tell us approximately what time did you,

urn, interview t h e d e f e n d a n t a t T w o Rivers Police
Department?
A Urn, it was somewhere between 3 : 2 0 and 3:30 in the
a f t e r n o o n when we started the interview a t Two Rivers
Police Department.
Q And where was the, uh, defendant's mother, Barb
Janda, at that time?
A We had spoke to Barb p r i o r to doing the interview,
and indicated she had every right to be in the
interview if she wished to be in. At that time s h e

declined. She waited in a o u t e r waiting area, urn, of
the police department while we conducted the
interview.
Q All r i g h t . And approximately how long did you,
uh, speak with Mr., uh, Dassey, uh, this
7
afternoon?
A I b e l i e v e i t w a s l e s s t h a n a n hour t h a t we did t h a t
' interview.
Q All right. At t h e conclusion o f the interview,
u h , what was done between you and S p e c i a l Agent
Fassbender?
A Obviously, w e discussed t h e i n t e r v i e w and d i s c u s s e d
what we had learned i n t h e i n t e r v i e w .
Q All r i g h t . After, urn, meeting and i n t e r v i e w i n g

Mr. Dassey, uh, on this day, February 2 7 , what
was your thinking?
A Well, at that time -- That's the f i r s t t i m e Brendan
places himself at t h e crime scene is d u r i n g that
interview. Places himself at the fire. So we
decided t h a t we needed t o interview everybody else
that lived on that p r o p e r t y and we needed to do that
right away to see what o t h e r people knew. We didn't
know if other people knew about this at that point or
not. So we decided that w e needed to c o n d u c t a l o t
of i n t e r v i e w s .
Q Did you have any feeling as to w h e t h e r or n o t the

defendant had t o l d you everything that h e knew a t
t h a t time?
A My f e e l i n g w a s , no, he d i d n ' t . T h a t he knew more,
because every time we would t a l k t o him h e ' d give you
8
a little b i t more, give you a little bit more. And,
again, that's the f i r s t time he placed h i m s e l f ,
basically, on that crime scene.
Q All right. Now, at that -- a f t e r those, urn, t w o

i n t e r v i e w s , uh, that particular day, did you
think that he was a suspect at that particular
point?
A No. Uh, again, i n my t h i n k i n g at that point, he's

still a witness -- a wis -- a witness to something
horrific. Urn, he tells us that he sees body p a r t s in
a fire. I mean, so we're thinking he is a witness to
something at that point that ...
Q All right. Now, urn, earlier, we heard from

Special Agent Fassbender that, urn, the defendant
and his mother, uh, were put up at the, urn, Fox
Hills, urn, H o t e l in Mishicot. How did that come
to pass?
A Well, there are two reasons that we decided to do

that that night. Urn, the first reason, number one,
first and foremost in any law enforcement's mind, is
safety. I mean, our job is to protect people.

That's t h e bottom l i n e . Because of t h e information
he t o l d us, i f there was somebody else that lived out

there that would have f o u n d out a n d may have a l s o
been involved, we were worried for his safety, that
9
they would somehow get to him and maybe harm h i m . So
we t h o u g h t , to be on the safe side, we needed to put
him, urn, somewhere off of that p r o p e r t y .
Number t w o , as any law enforcement
o f f i c e r knows, integrity in an investigation is
very important, and it can be tainted very easily
by somebody going back and s a y i n g , t h i s i s what I
told the cops. Cover this up. Do t h i s . And w e
d i d n ' t want t h a t t o happen. We didn't want

Brendan, or his mother f o r that matter, going
back and telling anybody e l s e on t h a t property
what they told us for fear of tainting that
investigation. So there were t w o r e a s o n s that w e
did that.
Q All right. Now, urn, Special Agent Fassbender

told us about an interview he had with the
d e f e n d a n t and h i s m o t h e r later that evening, the
27th. Did you and he discuss the results of his,
um, interview that evening?

A W e did. Urn, Agent Fassbender i n f o r m e d m e that he had
learned from another family member that Mr. Dassey
might have had more information about that, and also
that there w e r e some pants that, um, maybe had some
bleach stains on i t . Agent Fassbender informed m e
that he went back to Mr. Dassey and his mother later
10
on the 27th, that evening, and asked Mr. Dassey about
the pants. And that's the f i r s t time Mr. Dassey,

Brendan, ever t o l d u s about s t a i n s on his pants,
cleaning up the garage floor. So n o w he p u t s himself
further into it. Puts himself i n that garage later

on that night.
Q All right. So are you saying that in -- in

either one of t h e previous interviews that day,
he never mentioned anything about bleach, or
cleaning up in the garage, or a n y of that?
A No. We never knew anything about that until Agent
Fassbender learned it and went back and talked to
Brendan later that night, on t h e 27th. That's when

we learned that.
Q Urn, as a result of that information, uh, what did
you decide to do?

A Well, obviously, when you keep learning little bits
and pieces, Brendan keeps telling us a little more
here, a little more there, we realized it could
probably be e i t h e r saw more, knew more, something.
We need to make arrangements to go back and talk to
him again. That was obvious.
Q Now, during these interviews on the 27th, d i d he

admit any involvement in any part -- any of this?
A No. Urn, basically, he was telling us he was a
11
witness.
Q All right. Urn, so then did you make arrangements
to reinterview the defendant?

A We did. Yes.
Q And tell us about the preparation of those p l a n s ?

A Urn, that would take us to March 1. Urn, at that point
we contacted Brendan's mother a g a i n , told her that we
would l i k e to take Brendan t o t h e Manitowoc S h e r i f f ' s
Department so we could do a videotaped interview of
Brendan to see what else he maybe had known, see what
else maybe he saw. It's obvious that he knew more
than he was telling us.
So at that p o i n t , urn, we did, again,
talk to his mother, told her what we wanted to
do, and she gave us permission to do that, and,
urn, Brendan agreed, also, and Brendan went with
us to t h e Manitowoc Sheriff's Department.
Q All right. And then d i d you proceed to, um,

interview Brendan Dassey on March l?
A We did. Yes.
Q And was t h a t interview memorialized in any
capacity?
A That interview was videotaped.
Q All right. Now, urn, before w e , urn, p r e s e n t t h e ,
uh, results of that interview, I ' d like to talk
12
to you a little bit first, about, um, some of the
interview techniques that you employed during the
course of your interrogation of, uh -- of, uh,
the defendant?
A Sure.
Q During the, urn, interview on March 1, did you and

Special Agent Fassbender employ any deception
during the course of, urn, your interviewing him?
A Absolutely. Yes.
Q All r i g h t . And tell u s why?
A Well, one of the reasons that we s a y t h i n g s that may

be not be true, or use deceptive measures, is to see
how suggestible he is. I mean, i f I would s a y

something that's not true, and he agrees with
everything I say that's not true, obviously that's a
problem. So we use techniques l i k e that to see if

he'll resist that. And, i n fact, he d i d .
He would b r i n g up c e r t a i n things t h a t we
knew not to be true, and he would say, that --
that's not true. It's not true. He'd s t i c k to
that. So, yeah, it's v e r y important, in my
o p i n i o n and my experience as -- as doing
interviews, you do have to do that. Absolutely.
Q Do you also engage in a technique on information

that you suspect to be true, but may not know it
13
true, to see if the person you're interviewing
will tell you anything about it?
A Sure. I mean, it -- it works both ways. I mean,
you -- you may not know. You may -- Again, like you
said, you may suspect something, and you may say
that, and he may, yeah, that's true. And -- and
that -- Again, that happens. It goes both ways.
Q All right. Now, urn, what other, urn, interview

techniques were, urn, employed during your, urn,
uh, questioning of the defendant on March l?
A We would say things l i k e , um, you're g o i n g to hear on
t h e tape, t h a t w e already know, urn, and they refer to
i t a s having s u p e r i o r knowledge. Urn, and we used
that technique in t h a t interview as well.
Q AIL right. And tell us a l i t t l e b i t about t h a t

technique? I mean, what is this superior
knowledge?
A Anybody you interview, no matter what t y p e of
i n c i d e n t it is, what type of crime it is, it's
against your self-preservation instincts. If you're

involved in something, to come out and a d m i t to it,
nobody likes to admit to t h i n g s . I've been doing
interviews a long time and very seldom does somebody

come o u t on t h e f i r s t time you talk with them a n d
admit things.
14
So when you use the quote, unquote,
superior knowledge thing, it implies to them that
you know more. That you can't fool me. We know
all about it. You might as well just tell us.

And that's t h e reason you use those type of
things.
Q In-- in your, uh, experience as an investigator,

how often has someone immediately acknowledged
their involvement in a -- in an offense when you

sit down and begin to question them?
A Almost never.
Q Urn, is it unusual at all for people to minimize

their involvement in offenses in the initial, um,
interview?
A No. And if you look at interviews -- And, again, you
take almost any crime from -- from a burglary, sexual
assault, to a homicide, it's normal that people will
minimize. Try to, yeah, I did a little bit, but I
r e a l l y didn't do it all. Things like that. And
it's -- it's -- it's -- it equates to peeling an
onion back. You take t h o s e layers off. Those
defensive layers of people. A n d that's -- that's
what you do in interviews. That's w h a t we do.
Q And, urn, were there any other, urn, interview

t e c h n i q u e s employed, uh, during the questioning
15
of the defendant that day?
A Urn, 'yeah. We -- we would get friendly with him. Urn,
we would tell them t h a t , you know, i t t s okay. Things
are okay. Because you don't want somebody to -- You
don't want somebody u p s e t . You don't want somebody
afraid of you. You want to be -- You know, different
officers use d i f f e r e n t techniques. B u t I found t h e
b e s t way for anybody is g o i n g to be you -- you try to
befriend them. You be nice to them. I'm n o t a " g e t
in your face" type interviewer.
Q Is that a -- a n y , urn, common t e c h n i q u e that you

employ?
A Absolutely. Yes.
Q All right. Urn, prior to, um -- Prior to, urn,

questioning, uh, the d e f e n d a n t , d i d -- did you
advise him of his constitutional rights?

A Yes. He was read his Miranda r i g h t s from our -- our
rights form. Our warning and waiver of rights form.
(Exhibit No. 206 marked for identification.)
Q Uh, you've been handed an exhibit. Tell us what

it is?
A It's the Calumet County S h e r i f f ' s Department Warning
and Waiver of R i g h t s f o r m .
Q What is o u r exhibit number on that form?

A Uh, 206.
16
Q All right. And tell us a little b i t about t h a t
form, if you would?
A Urn, t h e Miranda r i g h t s are -- are -- You've probably
all seen it on TV if you watch any cop shows. Urn,
t h e right to remain silent. Things l i k e that. It
was j u s t a form that we use that spells it a l l out.
The bottom t w o questions indicate, do you know and
understand each of -- each of these rights that I've
explained to you? And it's either a yes or a no.
And understanding these rights, do you wish to make a
statement? And it's either a y e s or a no.
Q All right. Now, I also note that, uh, from my

previous examination of the form, there's some
writing on that form? Some, uh, handwriting as
opposed to t h e printed form?
A Yes. What --
Q Tell us about that?
A What I do when I read the rights to people, I c h e c k
them a11 o f f , f i r s t of all, to make sure I've covered
them all. And then I have the person i n i t i a l them.
Take a l o o k at what I read to them, and I have them
i n i t i a l them. Which I d i d i n this case.

I also do that for t h e p a r t of the
waiver where I ask them if they understand these
rights, and ask them if they want to speak w i t h
17
me. Whether they say yes or no, I have them
initial them to -- to show that they have at
least looked at this form and read them.
And then there's a place for the, uh,

person I'm interviewing to s i g n , and t h e r e ' s a
place where I sign as a witness on the bottom.
Q A l l right. Now, in terms of presenting that

information to the defendant, did you read the
form to him or did he read it himself?
A I read the form to him. And, again, I showed him the
form and have him i n i t i a l what I read.
Q All right. At a n y p o i n t did he show a n y

confusion, urn, or misunderstanding of -- of the
information on the form?

A No, not a t a l l .
Q Did h e show any hesitancy about, urn, his

willingness to speak with you and Agent
Fassbender on March l?
A No.
Q All right. Urn, at any point, urn, did you, uh,
promise h i m , urn, a n y inducements to -- in o r d e r

to get him to speak with you that day?
A No.
Q All right. Urn, and on March 1, who else was, urn,
present or around for this interview?
18
A Again, m y s e l f and Agent Fassbender conducted t h e
interview. Urn, Brendan's mother had presented
herself at the Sheriff's Department sometime later

during t h e interview.
Q All right. Urn, 1 believe we're ready to --

(Discussion off the record.)
ATTORNEY FALLON: That's probably a good
idea.
Q (By Attorney Fallon) Tell us a b o u t the, urn -- the
specific location where the interview took place?
A Sure. The interview that we conducted on March 1 was
done, a g a i n , at the Manitowoc County Sheriff's
Department, which -- I don't know if you guys had a
chance to be outside, b u t right outside, the next
building o v e r . Urn, that interview was conducted i n
t h e detective's p o r t i o n of the Sheriff's Department,
which is, I believe, second floor of the Sheriff's

Department there.
Urn, it's conducted in what we c a l l a
soft room. Urn, it -- it's like a small living

room, if you will. It's got a small couch, two
small soft chairs, it's got lamps for lighting.
I t 7 s not l i k e you see on TV. Again, you
know, CSI, stuff l i k e that, where it's this brick
wall room and this hard table and you g o t the
19
l i g h t s h i n i n g on them and things l i k e t h a t . It's
a very, uh -- very comfortable room. And
that's -- that's where he was interviewed.
Q All right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I believe we're, urn,
ready.
THE COURT: Is this going to be a closed
caption video?
THE COURT: I ' m going to read the
instruction then.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yeah, I think that
would be good.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, ladies and
gentlemen, closed caption transcripts have been
added to this videotape. If you, the jury, believe
in watching the video concurrently while reading the
closed caption words that there's a variation
between videotape and t h e closed caption, you are to
rely solely on the videotape, so...
Urn, do you w a n t t h e r e p o r t e r t o take
this? I mean, there's a transcript of this as

well. If I --
ATTORNEY FALLON: We can provide a
transcript, urn, if necessary. We will be
20
-
introducing a DVD as, urn, the actual evidence,
uh, consistent, of course, with the law and the
instruction you j u s t read.

THE COURT: All right. 1'11 a s k t h e
defense, do you have any objection if -- if t h e
r e p o r t e r does n o t take t h i s ? Understanding t h a t t h e
trustworthiness of i t is secured by a number of
different things; a transcript, a CD.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Certainly a s t o t h e

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: No, there's no
objection if the reporter doesn't take it.
THE COURT: Okay. A l l right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, if there's no

objection, could, um, Investigator Wiegert resume
a seat back here during t h e p l a y i n g ? Uh --

THE COURT: Do you have any objection?
ATTORNEY FALLON: We -- we will stop the

t a p e at o n e i p o i n t and re-call h i m to ex --
e x p l a i n a few t h i n g s that are occurring, but
other than that, it will be about 2 h o u r s and 20
minutes or so.
I guess we'll, uh, have Investigator,
uh, maintain his c u r r e n t position j u s t f o r
21
f a c i l i t a t i n g the ease of t a l k i n g about t h e -- a
f e w of the points t h a t we will stop the tape at.
(Wherein DVD i s p l a y e d . )
(Wherein DVD i s stopped.)
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, I t h i n k

we'll take our morning break at t h i s t i m e . The
closed c a p t i o n d i d n o t pan o u t for u s this time
around. And, s e c o n d l y , we stopped the t a p e at
approximately 1208.
THE COURT: All right. The record will
r e f l e c t that. We'll recess until, uh, 10:35.
(Reconvened at 10:38 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. F a l l o n , you may proceed.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Thank you, Judge. Urn,
I believe w e have it cued up to t h e appropriate

s p o t and we'll c o n t i n u e at this point.
Apparently, t h e program does not have a
p a r t i c u l a r pause b u t t o n so it does have to be
repeated.
THE COURT: Okay.
(Wherein p l a y i n g of DVD continues.)
(Wherein DVD is stopped.)
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, we've
22
spoken with counsel and we're going to speed up
through this break.

(Wherein playing of DVD continues.)
(Wherein playing of DVD is stopped.)
ATTORNEY FALLON: I think this would be
a good time to take t h e break.
THE COURT: I think you're right. Uh,
we will recess f o r the lunch hour. We'll --

we'll be back here at 1:OS. 1'11 remind the
jury, no talking a b o u t this or anything related

to the c a s e .
(Reconvened at 1:32 p . m . )
THE COURT: Mr. Fallon, are you set to

proceed?
ATTORNEY FALLON: We are.
THE COURT: You may do so.

(Wherein playing of DVD is continued.)
(Wherein playing of DVD is stopped.)
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, I believe
we've agreed that the remainder of the, urn,

discussion does not contain pertinent questioning
of the defendant and I t h i n k we agreed to, urn,
stop the tape at this particular point.
23
THE COURT: And to the defense, is that
true?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: It is, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All r i g h t .
Q ( B y A t t o r n e y Fallon) Investigator Wiegert, I

have a f e w , urn, questions f o r you. Urn, I think
I q l l t a k e these more or less in reverse order
from what w e q v e j u s t s e e n . Urn, if you would,
please, um, tell us why -- First of all, from
your investigative efforts did, urn, Teresa
Halbach have a tattoo on her stomach?
A No. We knew s h e didn't have a tattoo.

Q And why was that q u e s t i o n put to the defendant?
A It's one of those things I kind of explained to you
guys before we started the, uh, interview. We -- we
do say things that are intentionally false. Urn, as
you noticed, Brendan s a i d , no, h e didn't see a
tattoo. So he answered that appropriately. So we
give him false things to see if he'll j u s t go along
with it. And c l e a r l y he doesn't.
Q Urn, y o u r colleague, urn, In -- uh, Investigator

Fassbender, also asked certain anatomical
questions related to, urn, Teresa Halbachfs, urn,
physical appearance and physical attributes.
What is the purpose of t h o s e questions?
24
-
A When Brendan told us that he sexually assaulted her,
that's the first time we knew that happened. Okay?
And when you do interviews in reference t o sexual
assaults, one of the things that you ask t h e suspect
is, uh, c e r t a i n questions about t h e body. Urn, it's
to see if they can recollect, urn, what they've seen
to see if -- again, to see i f they c a n j u s t go a l o n g
with it, see i f they m a k e t h i n g s up. Um, and, a g a i n ,
i n that case I believe he answered those questions
appropriately. The color of t h e hair. Everything.
Q All r i g h t . A r e those questions also asked to
test whether or n o t he actually saw what he said
he saw?
A Yes.
Q A l l right. Urn, a g a i n , uh, t h e r e w a s a l e n g t h y
break, urn, that we s p e d t h r o u g h . Urn, my estimate
w a s there was a break of almost about 28, 29
minutes, from 12:29 to 1 2 : 5 7 . Could you tell us
what was going on at that time?

A Yes. A c t u a l l y , w e had m a d e a phone c a l l to the
prosecutor, M r . K r a t z . Um, M r . K r a t z , and there were
some other investigators, who were starting to
prepare a search warrant, urn, based on some new
information. If you h e a r d me pick up the phone

during that interview, and I said do not sign, do n o t
25
sign, urn, do n o t serve. I don't remember if you
remember hearing that. I was stopping them from the
process of doing t h a t search warrant, because we had
learned new information by that time and we wanted to

include that information in the search warrant.
So during that break, we were talking --

excuse me -- to the, uh, d i s t r i c t attorney a b o u t
g e t t i n g t h e proper information in that search
warrant.
Q All right. And, um, is this the interview, urn,
that contributed information leading to the
search warrant which was executed at Steven
Avery's t r a i l e r and garage on March 1 and 2 that
we've heard earlier about in this trial?
A It i s - This is an -- A f t e r this information was
provided to us, when we gained that search warrant
and signed by a judge, we went back and executed that
search warrant on the 1st of March after this, and
continued that into the 2nd of March. That's when we
recovered the two b u l l e t s based on Brendan's
information that she was shot in t h e garage, which is
one of the bullets that contained the DNA of Teresa
Halbach.
Q All r i g h t . Now, urn, we also noted that there

were some drawings that you requested that the
26
defendant prepared?
Yes.
Urn, d i d you bring those with you today?
Yes.
I'd l i k e to ask you some questions about those
drawings. Uh, first -- f i r s t one -- first one, I
believe, is Exhibit 2 0 7 ?
That's correct.
And what is depicted in Exhibit 207?
Uh, Exhibit 207 is the picture of t h e k n i f e that
Brendan d r e w f o r us.
All right. And are t h e r e any writings or other
markings o t h e r than the -- the depiction, itself?
Yes. Urn, Brendan signed it, he dated it, and he put
the t i m e on there.
All right. And, uh, the n e x t exhibit?
Uh, 2 0 9 .
Yes. What is depicted in Exhibit 209?
Uh, this one depicts the garage. Urn, Brendan drew
o u t t h e garage, and he had the snowmobile, urn, in t h e
garage. He's g o t the vehicle in the garage. He's
got t h e lawnmower labeled. He also put in where they
laid Teresa, and where he and Steve are both

standing. Again, he signed this one, dated it, and
put the time on i t .

Q All right. Exhibit 210?
A Yes.
Q What is depicted in Exhibit 210?

A This is a drawing he did of the burn pit area. Uh,
included in this drawing is he's got the garage. He
correctly drew out where the burn p i t w a s . Uh, he
put the doghouse in. He even drew her body laying in
that depression, if you will, uh, where we found h e r
bones. And, again, he signed this one, he dated it,

and he put the time on it.
Q All right. And the last one, 2 0 8 ?

A Yes. This one is, urn, a rendering of the -- Steve
Avery's bedroom. Again, in this one, he's got the
bed drawn in. He's got the dresser. He's got the
nightstand. He's got the closet. He put on the wall

the gun rack. Urn, and he also drew Teresa's body on
the bed.
Q All right. I'm going to ask that, uh, your

colleague, Mr. Fassbender, take those exhibits
and bring those to t h e ELMO f o r publication.
ATTORNEY FALLON: It would begin with

207. The reverse order that you have them.
Two -- 207 first.
Q (By Attorney Fallon) Now, again, 207, this is

the knife that he drew that we just saw on t h e ,
28
um -- the videotaped interview?
A It is. It's the one he said that they used to c u t
h e r t h r o a t and stab h e r .
Q All right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, 209,
Mr. Fassbender, p l e a s e ? All right. You might

have to zoom o u t a l i t t l e on that. All right.
Q (By Attorney F a l l o n ) And 209, this is the

depiction of the garage?
A It is. And if I could elaborate a little bit about
that one?
Q Yeah. I have -- I have a f e w questions if I may?

A Okay.
Q Urn, there seems to be, uh, depicted in t h e r e , urn,

a, uh, s t i c k person. What is represented by that
depiction?
A That's w h e r e Brendan stated when they took her o u t of
the back of the RAV 4, where they placed h e r on t h e
ground, and that's where they shot her. The thing
about that one is he places her -- If -- if you

compare this drawing to things you might have seen
earlier in the t r i a l , where we believed that there
was a luminol s t a i n -- or the s t a i n -- excuse me --

t h e luminol showed a stain which we believed to be
bleach, which he later said he had cleaned up in the
29
garage, i s exactly where that luminol lit up.
Q A l l right. And I see initials. There's t w o X's

with initials. One is B. R. D; what is t h a t
supposed to represent?
A I had Brendan l a b e l where he was standing. And I had
h i m label where Steve was standing when, uh, he shot
her.
Q A l l right. And i s that the -- the, urn -- t h e "X"
which is depicted below the lettering 3. R. D.?

A That is correct. Yes.
Q A n d that's supposed to be an S. A.? Is that what

it -- that is?
A Yes.
Q All r i g h t . And, urn, there i s a little box, urn,

above three circles. There's three circles
between t h e -- the s t i c k p e r s o n d e p i c t i o n , and
t h e n there's, uh, a box above that. What is
that?
A T h a t ' s where -- I f you remember in t h e pictures,
t h e r e was a -- I believe it's a John Deere lawnmower
sitting.
Q All r i g h t . And what were t h e t h r e e c i r c l e s t h a t

are sup -- uh, supposedly, uh, depicted between
the stick person and the lawnmower?
A I believe that's where he's drawing t h e blood.
30
C
Q All right. And, urn, just so that we're clear, is
that his handwriting which appears on the
right-hand of the screen?

A It is.
Q All r i g h t . Next. We are now publishing 210. I

believe you indicated this was, urn, uh, the burn
pit?
A Correct. If you s e e , he actually drew the mound i n .
And if you remember the actual pictures, there's a
gravel and dirt mound built up there. And I believe

that's what he was drawing t h e r e .
Q I'm g o i n g to have my colleague, Mr. Gahn, hand

you a laser pointer?
A Sure.
Q And, uh, as I recall your testimony from a f e w
moments ago, um, there is a, urn -- a doghouse
that was drawn in?

A Right. He's g o t the doghouse drawn in right here.
And here's that mound I w a s talking about. If you

remember back on the pictures, that was a gravel and
dirt mound.
Q Right.
A And here was that dugout impression.
Q All r i g h t . And what is depicted in that

depress ion?
31
A He drew i n where they put Teresa. And that's exactly
where the bones were found. It was within this area
here.
Q All right.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, n e x t one,
Mr. Fassbender. Exhibit 208, I believe it is.

If you'd zoom out j u s t a b i t . All right.
Q (By Attorney Fallon) What is d e p i c t e d in Exhibit

208?
A That would be, uh, Steve Avery's bedroom, which he
drew f o r us.
Q All right. And, urn, there are a number of, uh,

items. Specifically, urn, there is a bed, w h i c h
is depicted there?
A Yeah. He drew t h e bed i n r i g h t here.
Q And -- And what is represented or depicted in the
drawing on the bed?
A He actually drew Teresa in on t h e bed. And you c a n
see the chains or handcuffs that are attached to h e r
legs and h e r arms.
Q All right. Now, what was significant about t h e ,

um, layout of t h e bedroom, vis-a-vis, t h e , urn,
investigative, urn, b e l i e f s , i n i t i a l l y , when t h i s

case broke, and, subsequently, w h a t did you l e a r n
about it?
32
A Well, when we served the search warrants on t h e , uh,
trailer, we found t h e bed right h e r e . Okay? The gun

rack is on the wall. There's actually pictures. If
you remember that? You see the gun rack? And the
bed was here. The door is actually here to the
bedroom.
When we interviewed Brendan, he had
stated t h a t you could see now -- you could see
T e r e s a from looking down that hallway. And we

initially t h o u g h t , well, how can that be?
Because if t h e bed is here, there's no way you
could see Teresa on t h a t bed from l o o k i n g down
t h e hallway, when he says he just walks in the
house and he l o o k s down there.
Q Let -- let -- let -- L e t me stop you right there.
Urn, when you e x e c u t e d the search warrant on

November 5, are you telling us the bed was under
the gun rack?
A Yes.
Q All right. Continue.

A The bed was under t h i s gun rack when w e executed t h e
search warrant. So when Brendan t e l l s us t h a t the
bed is over here -- Or, actually, Brendan told us he
could see her. So we ask him, well, d r a w t h e bed in.
So he draws it in here without any prompting o r
33
telling him where anything was in that room.
When we eventually t a l k e d to Steve
Avery's g i r l f r i e n d , f i a n c k as she put it
yesterday, she also puts the bed here. So,
now -- Well, obviously, when you walk in that
door to t h a t trailer, and you look down that
hallway in this doorway, h e ' s right. You could

see it.
Q All r i g h t . Now, urn, there's been some, uh,

testimony, uh, of assistance rendered to the
investigation by a state trooper by the name of

Timothy Austin. I t h i n k , urn, there was a
stipulation regarding some of his animation, and
I believe Dr. Eisenberg, urn, t e s t i f i e d that he
assisted her. Urn, as a r e s u l t of the information
provided by Jodi Stachowski and, urn, the
defendant, Brendan Dassey, did you a s k him to do
anything?
A Yes. We asked, urn, Trooper Austin to see if that was
f e a s i b l y possible. If that bed would fit in that

area. S o he d i d t h a t .
Q All right. I'm going to show you, urn, a -- a

photograph. I'm having my colleague show you
what has been m a r k e d f o r identification as
Exhibit 211?
34
A Yes.
Q D i d you r e c o g n i z e that?
A I do.
Q What is E x h i b i t 211?
A Two-eleven i s a rendering, urn, based off of
information that we learned in this case of how a
bedroom was the day that Teresa was -- that we
believe that T e r e s a was i n there.
Q All right. Yes. I'm g o i n g to have my, uh,

colleague hand that f o r publication. All right.
Exhibit 211 is, uh, depicted, and, uh, tell us
about that? Illustrate, first of all, where t h e

doorway to t h e room is.
A Sure. The door is r i g h t here. And here's t h a t e x i t
door to go outside, urn, t h e one that Brendan t a l k e d
about, and the cement steps was right there by t h e
bedroom. Urn, the garage would be, basically, right
over here. And t h i s i s t h e bed drawn in here. Urn,
the l i t t l e d e s k . I t h i n k i t ' s like a two-file --
two-drawer file cabinet there that he had in the
room. Uh, the bookcase. And you see on the wall
here is the gun rack.
Q All right. And, urn, did you commission, uh,
Trooper Austin to do one other animation --
animated still for your investigation?
35
A Yes, we did.
Q A11 right. I'm showing you now what has been

marked f o r identification as Exhibit 212. What
is depicted in, uh, Exhibit 212?
A Again, this is, urn, Steve's garage. Urn, as you can
see, t h e b i g garage door here. The small entry door
of the garage. Some of t h e important things in this
rendering would be that John Deere lawnmower that we
talked about that he had drawn in, which is right

there. And, if you remember, he got the, uh --
actually, the RAV 4 in here, too, backed in, which
fits very well.
Q All right. Now, j u s t s o t h a t we're clear, urn,

there appears to be, urn, uh, significantly less
clutter in the photo than in the original
photograph of that garage; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And was that, uh, specifically requested of

Trooper Austin?
A It was.
Q And, uh, was that to just facilitate the general

layout of the garage?
A Yes.
Q All right. And, urn, do you believe that to be a

representative portrayal of the information
36
provided by the d e f e n d a n t ?
A Yes, I do.
Q All right. Urn, Investigator Wiegert, urn, f o r t h e

record, then, what was t h e address of Steven
Avery ' s trailer and garage?
A Urn, 12932 Avery Road, Town of Gibson, Manitowoc
County, Wisconsin.
Q And is that the location where t h e d e f e n d a n t

attributed these events occurred?
A I t is.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I have no further

questions f o r this witness. Would move into
evidence E x h i b i t s , uh, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211,

212, and, uh, I've -- I've forgotten the e x h i b i t
number for t h e DVD of the, uh, interview, but we
would move that in as well.
THE COURT: I don't t h i n k there is a number
f o r it, but there is one f o r t h e waiver of rights.

The 2 0 6 .
ATTORNEY FALLOM: And 2 0 6 .
THE COURT: So we'll mark t h e DVD. That
would be 213. You're asking that that be --

THE COURT: You're o f f e r i n g it?

ATTORNEY FALLON: I would o f f e r that as
37
t h e o f f i c i a l record.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Mr. Fremgen, any

o b j e c t i o n s to a n y of those?
ATTORNEY FREMGEW: No.
THE COURT: Then, uh, Exhibits, uh, 2 0 6

through, and including, 213, which is going to be
marked right now, the CD, are received.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I lhink it's a DVD.
THE COURT: I -- I ' m sorry. DVD. Yes.
ATTORNEY FALLON: You have that, Ms.
Clerk?
THE CLERK: N o t yet.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Not y e t ? All right.

THE CLERK: I j u s t have a s t i c k e r f o r
it.
ATTORNEY FALLON: A11 right. We'll --

we'll produce that before the end of the day.
Uh, w i t h receipt of those exhibits, we would
tender the witness for, uh, cross-examination.
THE COURT: Cross?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, p r i o r
to commencing cross, could we take o u r afternoon
break? There's a number of exhibits I need to
gather up.
THE COURT: All right. We'll break until
38
q u a r t e r to three.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Very well. T h a n k you.
(Recess had at 2:26 p . m . )
THE COURT: Cross.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Thank you, Your
Honor.
CROSS--NATION
Q Officer Wiegert, you covered a lot of ground, so

bear w i t h me if I jump a r o u n d a little bit?
A Yes, s i r .
Q You've been with Calumet f o r 14 years; right?

A Yes.
Q And you are now classified as an investigator I

believe you said?
A That's correct.
Q That any d i f f e r e n t than a detective?

A Same t h i n g . D i f f e r e n t name.
Q Than t h e -- S o you're involved with m o r e , shall

we say, investigative duties from events, as
opposed to day-to-day responding to c a l l s , uh,

taking reports, things l i k e that?
A Yes. That's true.
Q All right. Now, you established early on that
39
yourself and Fassbender became what you've been
characterizing as t h e l e a d investigators i n t o t h e
d i s a p p e a r a n c e of Teresa Halbach; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Was t h e r e -- And I take it there was no

p a r t i c u l a r h i e r a r c h y , even though h e ' s a state
employee and y o u q r e a county employee?
A Considered my partner.
Q All right. So t h e two of you a r e working
t o g e t h e r on this thing throughout -- from the
b e g i n n i n g t h r o u g h today, b a s i c a l l y ?
A Yes.
Q Okay. If you g o t a piece of information, you

shared it w i t h him, and v i c e - v e r s a ?
A When I could,
Q What, if anything, would have prevented you from

sharing the information?
A There's a l o t of information in this case and I
believe we shared as much as we could together.
Q Just in fairness, though, uh, you did your v e r y

best to m a k e s u r e t h a t he knew w h a t you knew, and
you knew what he d i d ?
A W e d i d our b e s t .
Q A l l right. Now, I believe you began your

testimony yesterday talking about, uh, Kayla;
40
right?
A Yes.
Q A n d you went to Kayla because you received some
information that s h e might have known something
about, um, Brendan l o s i n g some weight; right?
A Urn, which t i m e ?
Q On the 20th? Well, l e t me a s k i t t o you t h i s

way: What was t h e first date you t a l k e d to
Kayla?
A Yes. February 20. That's n o t -- L e t me answer your

first question. That's not the reason we talked to
Kayla, initially, no.
Q When you talked to Kayla on the 20th, I

undexstood your testimony to -- to be based upon
t h e fact that you'd received some information
from someone, and you didn't say who, that you
needed to talk to K a y l a . That she had some

information?
A We talked to Kayla -- She had information, urn, about
Steven Avery, n o t about Brendan losing weight, as you
said.
Q But in any event, when you were there, you had

spoke to her, and she -- uh, you t e s t i f i e d she
told you t h a t he lost about 4 0 pounds; right?

A Yes.
41
Q Okay. Had you -- You had never met Brendan
Dassey as of the 20th of February, had you?
A No, I had n o t .
Q You didn't know how o l d he w a s ?
A As of the 20th -- I -- I knew he was a teenager.
f -- As to his exact age, no, I don't think I knew

his exact age.
Q You really didn't know -- D i d you know where he
went to school?
A Well, I assumed where he went to school in Mishicot
from where he lived.
Q Okay. B u t you hadn't c h e c k with t h e school to

verify he was a student there?
A O n t h e 20th. Urn, I don't r e c a l l if I would have by
then or n o t . I don't think so.
Q Okay.
A B u t I'm n o t s u r e .
Q Ilm g o i n g to hand you f o r t h e record what h a s
been admitted as 163?
A Yes.
Q And you're familiar with that; right?

A I am. Yes.
Q And f o r the record and t h e benefit of the j u r y ,

what is it?
A Urn, it's the statement in which w e t a l k e d about, I
42
believe, yesterday that, uh, Kayla Avery had wrote,
on, uh, the 7 t h of March.
Q Okay. And that was after you had gone back to

talk with her; right?
A That was after the school had contacted us.
Q Right. Okay. Now, t h e 7 t h of March, i n r e l a t i o n

to the lengthy interview that everybody just saw
between you a n d Fassbender and Brendan, was six
days later; right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And isn't it a fact that on the 1st day of

March, you, Fassbender, mernbexs of the
prosecution team, held a w i d e l y publicized press
conference?
A There was a press conference, y e s .
Q And is it f a i r to characterize that as a press

c o n f e r e n c e s t a t i n g that Brendan Dassey has
confessed to his involvement in t h e disappearance
of Teresa Halbach?
A I believe that would be accurate.
Q I believe you t e s t i f i e d on direct with respect to

t h e interview of March 7, and correct me if this
is n o t what you said, that after he saw Teresa

Halbach pinned up in the bedroom, he heard
screaming in the bedroom. Do you remember that
43
testimony?
A After he? After -- This is after Brendan, are you

talking a b o u t ? T'm sorry.
Q Right. As related to you by -- by Kayla?
A Urn, I believe that's correct.
Q You do n o t ?
A No. T believe that's correct.
Q Okay. When you talked w i t h K a y l a , she led you to

believe that there was a chair involved in some
sort of restraint with Teresa; right?
A According to Kayla, that Brendan had told K a y l a that
Teresa was pinned up in a chair.
Q And when does she claim that Brendan told her

that?
A Urn, according to my recollection, she claims it was
in December of '05, because she remembers it because

there was a birthday p a r t y at h e r house.
Q Right. And you g o t that information from h e r
when?
A We g o t that information in March.
Q Well -- And t h a t would be related in 163?

A Yes. That's correct.
Q Okay. So in March, about six days after this
press conference, she's telling you that t h e
defendant said Teresa was pinned up in a c h a i r ?
44
A After the school calls us and tells us that they had
learned about information about this homicide --
Q Officer --
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: With t h e Court
permission.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) I don't mean to quibble.

I didn't ask about the school. My question was,
six days after the interview -- six days a f t e r
the press conference, that's when Kayla tells you

that t h e d e f e n d a n t claimed that Teresa had been
pinned up in a c h a i r ; correct or not?
A Yes. That's correct.
Q All right. And it is true, is it not, that even

through this lengthy video, at no time did
Brendan ever claim that Teresa was pinned up in a
c h a i r ; yes or no?
A No.
Q He did n o t ?
A In a chair, no.
Q So that would be an inconsistency in h i s

statements; correct?
THE COURT: To foundation, uh, the

objection is sustained. Why don't you make that
clearer, please?
45
Q The statement you got from Kayla reporting what
Brendan told you, you got it from her? You
didn't take that as a statement, so to speak, of
Brendan?
A I took it as hat Brendan told Kayla.
Q Exactly.
A His statement.
Q All right. But t h e n based upon what he told you,

as Ear as this pinning up business, that would
not match; correct?
A No. I wouldn't agree with that.
Q Does it match to the extent that he described it

pinning up in a chair?
A Urn, the chair is d i f f e r e n t . Urn, but she was p i n n e d
UP -
Q Now, when you t a l k about t h e pinning up, I assume
you're saying there's some consistency, uh,
because of his statement to you in this 3/1
statement that he saw Teresa, urn, t i e d up or
restrained on the bed; right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Let's talk about the bed real quick. For
the record, Itrn going to hand you what's been
marked as 211, which is t h e Austin photograph,
computer-generated d e p i c t i o n , of t h e bedroom of
46
Steve Avery; right?
A Yes.
Q And you testified that he prepared that based
upon the drawing that, uh, Brendan provided to
you during the course of the 3/1 interview;
right?
A No, that's n o t true.
Q It's n o t ?
A No.
Q Okay. What is 208?

A Two-0-eight is Brendan's drawing.
Q Okay. And that's how he claims the bedroom was

on October 31; right?
A Yes.
Q Well, help me o u t then. Two-eleven, that Austin

prepared, what is this based on? Is this n o t
based on what Brendan was telling you?
A I believe what I testified to is t h a t it was based on
statements by Brendan and, uh, Steve Avery's f i a n c e ,
Jodi Stachowski .
Q Okay. But it was supposed to depict the

condition of the Steve Avery bedroom as of
October 31; correct?
A That is correct.
Q All right. Now, I'm going to leave you this one.
47
A Sure.
Q All r i g h t . You see on the exhibit, and it's No.

208, that's up on the ELMO, it shows where t h e
closet i s in that bedroom; right?
A Yep.
Q Okay. Now, this Austin one also shows the

closet; correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. As I'm holding it, oriented up, so to

speak, f o r t h e b e n e f i t of t h e record, just like
in this one with the closet, or in t h e up

portion; correct?
A Sure.
Q T h i s should be t h e same; r i g h t ?
A This should be t h e same --
Q Well, the Austin rendition, and what Brendan

drew, because you believe that to be t h e
configuration on the 31st, should be t h e same?
A That's -- As I s t a t e d b e f o r e , that's based on, n o t
only Brendan, b u t from Jodi Stachowski .
Q I understand that. But they, in any event,
should be the same; right?
A No. That's based on t w o people's statements.
Q Well, if we l o o k at t h e Austin rendition, you
have t h e bed in t h e f u r t h e s t possible corner -- I
48
don't know if that's n o r t h , south, east, or west.
Where's your laser pointer?
A Right here.
Q On the Austin rendition, this bed is a c t u a l l y up

against this wall; right?
A That's true. Urn-hmm.
Q Okay. And in Brendan's, the bed is n o t up

a g a i n s t the wall; correct?
A Right. It's moved out a few feet.
Q Okay.
A On t h e same wall.
Q On t h e same wall as to the head side, so to
speak?
A Yes.
Q B u t n o t t h e left side; right?
A That's correct. Urn-hmm.
Q Okay. And on Brendan's -- I don't w a n t to g e t

the clerk -- And on Brendan's, he h a s some
furniture off to t h e left side of t h e bed; right?

A T h a t is t r u e .
Q B u t when you had Austin prepare this one, you
have that furniture o f f on this side?

A Again, that's a culmination of J o d i Stachowski's and
Brendan's statements are represented there.
Q I understand that. But when you testified
49
earlier, you be1 -- you based -- you a s k e d Austin
to prepare this based upon what both of them told
you?
A That is t r u e .
Q A r e there i n c o n s i s t e n c i e s between E x h i b i t 2 0 8 , as
prepared for you at y o u r r e q u e s t by Brendan
Dassey on t h e l s t , and Exhibit 211 that you a s k e d
Austin to prepare?
A Sure. Yeah.
Q When, and if you can, g i v e me a date, did Brendan

Dassey become a suspect in a criminal offense in
your mind?
A Well, there were a l o t of suspects. I mean, Brendan
Dassey --
Q Detective, a g a i n , I don't mean to quibble w i t h
you. I didn't a s k a b o u t a l o t of o t h e r suspects.
I don't care about other suspects. I want to
know, in your mind, when Brendan Dassey became a
suspect i n a criminal o f f e n s e ?
A Probably in March.
Q What day in March?

A The day that he told us that he killed, r a p e d , and
mutilated Teresa Halbach.
Q Okay. And that was?

A That was March 1.
50
Q A l l right. You had t a l k e d earlier on direct, for
the benefit o f , uh, e d u c a t i n g t h o s e f o l k s who are
not familiar with the criminal investigation
process, about the differences, a little b i t ,
between, I t h i n k you called it an interview, and
an interrogation; right?
A I talked earlier about that?
Q I believe you did. Maybe not today. I think it

m i g h t have been y e s t e r d a y .
A I don't recall t a l k i n g about it today. That's why
I'm asking. But I'll take your word for it.
Q Well, even if it wasn't y e s t e r d a y ?

A Sure.
Q There is a difference; right?

A Sure.
Q All r i g h t . You -- you interview, urn, witnesses,

you i n t e r r o g a t e suspects; right?
A Not necessarily. But there's -- there's not a fine
line. You're -- y o u ' r e looking t o draw a fine line.
There's really not that fine l i n e .
Q Well, you knew, as one of the lead investigators,

that Skorlinski, Baldwin, and OtNeill h a d a l r e a d y
spoken w i t h Brendan up in Marinette County;
right?
A That's true. Yes.
51
And, certainly, by t h e 1st of March, you had
received, uh, f a i r l y detailed i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m
them, perhaps including a transcript made from
t h e little recording d e v i c e up i n O'Neill's car;

right?
I d i d n o t receive the transcript by March 1, b u t I
d i d have a chance to review reports.
Okay. S o you had, basically, a summary of what

it w a s about?
Sure.
And i f I'm guessing c o r r e c t l y , you t a l k e d with
S k o r l i n s k i , or maybe Fassbender did, and you got
t h e same information?
I did not t a l k t o Skorlinski.

Did Fassbender, t o y o u r knowledge?
You'd have to ask h i m that.
Okay. We can do that.
Sure.
You alsd t e s t i f i e d about t h a t you and Agent
Fassbender had spoken with Brendan on the 2 7 t h of
March? I'm s o r r y . February?
Yes.
And t h a t occurred on, a c t u a l l y , t w o d i f f e r e n t
locations? T h r e e different l o c a t i o n s on t h e
27th? Am I correct?
A Yes.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Excuse me, Your Honor,
um, may Counsel and I approach?
THE COURT: You may.
THE COURT: We'll e x c u s e t h e j u r y a t t h i s
p o i n t f o r a few m i n u t e s .
( J u r o r s out at 3 : 0 9 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Be seated. Uh,
Mr. F a l l o n , you' r e a n t i c i p a t i n g , a p p a r e n t l y , some
questions that you may o r may n o t f i n d
objectionable. Can w e -- Can w e ask you what i t i s
t h a t you, perhaps, w i l l f i n d objectionable and see,
i n d e e d , i f t h o s e a r e g o i n g t o be asked?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Thank you,
Judge, for t h i s , uh, c o n s i d e r a t i o n . Urn, our
c o n c e r n i s s i m p l y t h i s , urn, w e would object to
any attempt by the d e f e n s e t o introduce other,
um, statements, arguably e x c u l p a t o r y , uh, g i v e n
by t h e client, because the law is quite clear
that only the party opponent may offer a
statement of the opposing party, and, as such, we
would object as b e i n g hearsay to t h e introduction

of those statements.
Now, h a v i n g s a i d t h a t , w e recognized w e
a t least a l e r t e d e v e r y o n e , and the jury, so that
they would have a better understanding of the
March 1 statement, that the officers had, in
fact, t a l k e d to Mr. Dassey on t h r e e occasions on
February 2 7 . Urn, only one of t h o s e interviews
was f u l l y disclosed and testified to by Agent
a ass binder .
So we don't have any objection to t h e
defense asking general questions about you -- you

talked to him on this day, and -- and things of
that matter. That's c e r t a i n l y fair game. But
a n y attempts to actually introduce t h e statements
or t h e responses, uh, is hearsay, because it's
not offered by a party opponent.

THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen or Mr. Edelstein,
your response?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, essentially,
what we're, urn, attempting to do is respond to
what's already been somewhat opened by the State
in their direct. The State referenced

speaking -- or the w i t n e s s reference --
referenced s p e a k i n g with the defendant at
Mishicot High School on the 27th of February. I
believe he actually t e s t i f i e d that, uh, he took
an audiotaped i n -- statement, not unlike the
I
54
November 5 interview in Marinette, and that he
even referenced the videotaped statement at Two
R i v e r s Police Station.
Urn, the witness was asked i f he felt
that Mr. Dassey had said everything he knew, and
the witness said, no. And it -- Let me, I don't

know, give a couple more examples and I'll,
essentially, wrap it up.

Urn, as -- The inference by the testimony
to the officer is that Mr. Dassey was not
truthful to them on t h e previous, uh, attempts to
interview h i m or left things o u t .
For i n s t a n c e , the o f f i c e r , specifically,
testified that the defendant denied being
involved in the o f f e n s e on F e b r u a r y 2 7 . The
officer indicated that he was con -- Well, I
don't know if he said he was confident, but I
think his testimony was, e s s e n t i a l l y , I d i d n ' t

believe h i m . I think he w a s more i n v o l v e d than
he was leading on.
In t h e May -- or t h e March 1 statement,

or t h e video statement, there's references t o
s p e c i f i c questions or specific answers from the
p r e v i o u s interviewers. For instance, urn -- I
believe the t w o pages I wrote down w e r e page 5 5 6
55
<
of t h e transcript, and page 5 -- or page 604.
One dealing with, urn, the clothing, t h e color of
the clothing, and the other, for -- I believe the
officer said, well, on Monday you didn't say
anything about threats from Steven.
So, essentially, what -- on direct, and
through the March 1 video, t h e State has offered
the fact that there had been t w o p r i o r , more
formalized, statements, other than t h e o n e that,
uh -- that, uh, Agent Fassbender t e s t i f i e d about

at t h e Fox River's Resort, urn, l a t e r in t h e
evening, and there's been reference that these
statements were not entirely accurate, raising
the question of whether or n o t Mr. Dassey was
truthful with them.
And I t h i n k what -- what it does is,
essentially, leaves the jury with the -- with
questions about the February 27 statements. I

believe that we should be entitled to explore
this avenue, sin -- since t h e S t a t e has opened

the door, to o f f e r a full explanation about the
February 27 statement and why they w e r e f u r t h e r
discussing with the March 1.

Otherwise, it's left -- Well,
essentially, what's left is the State's been
56
allowed to let the officer explain his role, the
prior taped statements, or questioning, and offer

his opinion about the prior taped statements,
even though the best evidence is the actual
statements, themselves.
So I -- I think we should be allowed to
explore that, uh, for lack of a better argument,
or back of a l e t t e r term, excuse me, t h a t the
State's opened that avenue or opened t h e door to
those questions.
THE COURT: Well, other than the -- the,
uh, remarks that you cite on page 5 5 6 and 604, are

you suggesting that there are o t h e r statements that
you wish to discuss?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well, the general
tone of the March 1 is that you weren't telling
us the truth before. That was t h e testimony of
the officer on direct. We weren't getting the
truth from Mr. Dassey. He wasn't telling us
everything. He was leaving things out. But

the -- In essence, he's saying now, March 1 i s
the truth. Well, I think we should be allowed to

explore those prior statements. What was left
out? Why do you have the impression that
something was missing? And I think part of
57
that's going to be there were different s t o r i e s
or d i f f e r e n t , uh, answers to t h e same types of
questions on March 1.
THE COURT: Mr. Fallon?

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, if I
might add, j u s t for the record, additionally,
there was testimony -- uh, this jury was led to
believe by the testimony t h a t there w e r e no
promises made to Brendan. Now, I believe we're

entitled to question whether or n o t there were
promises made to h i m at a n y o t h e r interviews,
including the 27th of March.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: February.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Or, I'm s o r r y ,
February.
ATTORNEY FALLON: All right. I have
now -- Now I have even more responses t o make,
b o t h legally and practically. Let's start with
the, urn -- the trees, and then well1 move to the
forest.
First, as, urn, the March 1 interview

revealed, the actual questions we previously
referred to a r e i d e n t i f i e d and discussed in the
interview, and this officer can be questioned
about those specific responses on March 1. So
58
that's one.
All r i g h t . Number two, urn, when i t

comes to admissibility of statements, whether
they're custodial or otherwise, the statements
are t a k e n at face value at the time and place in
which they are given.

I'll give you an example. There's a
case o u t of Racine called State v . Pischke,
P-i-s-c-h-k-e, that deals w i t h , urn, urn,
re-interrogation of a custodial suspect. I cite
t h a t case j u s t f o r one distinct proposition,
because if the proposition holds in that
circumstance, it clearly applies in this
circumstance.
And in Pischke there was a series of
custodial interrogations. The defense objected
because on the last interrogation the defendant,
urn, confessed. The defendants f l o a t e d t h e idea
that the State was the grand initiator of all
those previous discussions t h e two days
beforehand. A n d the C o u r t said, that's a great
theory, but it doesn't hold water, because it's
just about the statement which resulted i n the

i n c u l p a t o r y events o r r e n d i t i o n .
I b r i n g that up because that was a
59
gentleman who was i n custody, and it was a series
of discussions over a two- or three-day period.
T h e r e might have been -- There w e r e several. And

t h e Court s a i d it was only who i n i t i a t e d t h e
d i s c u s s i o n a t t h e t i m e that l e d to t h e
inculpatory statement in making t h e determination
as to whether this was a proper re-interrogation,
and since the defendant in that case had
initiated i t , it was a proper.
I b r i n g that up by a n a l o g y here, because
w e have a two-day time lapse. The March 1
statement must be, and should be, analyzed
individually as to t h e events of that day and the
c i r c u m s t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g t h e g i v i n g of that
statement.
So on that regard, I -- I don't accept,
as a proposition o f f e r e d by the d e f e n s e , t h a t
w h a t occurred on February 27 has much, if
a n y t h i n g , t o do w i t h a n y inducements or promises
with respect to what occurred on March 1.
Now, for t h e b i g p i c t u r e . The f o r e s t .
T h e r e a s o n behind t h e r u l e is to prohibit a -- a I
uh, p a r t y from getting in an a v e r s i o n of the

events without having to take t h e stand. And
t h a t ' s why t h e r u l e is c r a f t e d and structured
60
around. It's an admission by a party opponent.
And o n l y the opponent can offer t h e statements.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Defense, do you -- do you

suggest t h a t Mr. Fallon's characterization of t h e
rule is i n c o r r e c t ?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I -- I would say that
the analogy is i n c o r r e c t as f a r as this case is
concerned. That -- that Pischke a n a l o g y that
Mr. F a l l o n presents, essentially, would leave,

uh, t h e State with every opportunity to make one
attempt a f t e r a n o t h e r to interview an individual
until they get what they want, and then just
introduce that one statement without any
reference to t h e past, even though, especially i n
this case, F e b r u a r y 27 was c e r t a i n l y a primer to
the March 1 statement. In particular, many of

t h e questions, n o t all, b u t many of t h e questions
were similar b u t w i t h d i f f e r e n t answers.
THE COURT: Well, here, I -- we could
probably discuss this well into -- well into the
night. My understanding of t h e rule -- And --

And one of you cited a case a couple of days ago
called State v s . Pepin at 110 Wis. 2d 431.
And -- And here, in this case, let's be clear,

we're not talking about a custodial interrogation
on February 27. If I recall, the parties -- And
this is -- this predated your involvement,
Counsel, in the case. But the parties, uh,
stipulated that it was not a custodial
interrogation.
But, anyway, Pepin says that in
instances, such as were faced here, that the
S t a t e has a right to use the inculpatory
statements under 9-0-8-0-1 (4bl), I believe is --
is the statute, admission by party opponents.

B u t that the -- b u t that t h e defense does n o t
have t h e r i g h t to use any exculpatory matter that
may appear t h e r e unless the exculpatory matter is
so e n t w i n e d w i t h t h e i n c u l p a t o r y matter t h a t it
bears t h e same trustworthiness or same
guarantees.
I can't say that in this case. I -- I

don't t h i n k that -- I don't think that situation,
the trustworthiness of the exculpatory statements
here, uh, stands o u t .
Thus, I'm going to -- I'm going to
grant, uh, uh, the prosecution's motion here.
With the exception, I believe, those were the
matters on pages 556 a n d 604, you can go into
62
those if you w i s h .
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, uh, if
I could j u s t -- before w e b r i n g the j u r y back, I
want to make i t q u i t e clear t h a t w h i l e I d o n ' t
necessarily agree w i t h t h e ruling, I can abide to
it, uh, as t o -- a s t o answers. But I f u l l y
intend t o a s k this o f f i c e r about questions he
asked this young man on that date. 1'11 stay
away from t h e answers. I want him to tell this
jury whether he asked him certain questions and
the manner in which t h e y were asked.
This defense -- We are e n t i t l e d to
present our d e f e n s e . We have raised this as a
matter of suggestibility. There -- This
interview of t h e 27th is replete with conscious
efforts, I b e l i e v e , and i t ' s u l t i m a t e l y up t o
t h i s j u r y to decide w h e t h e r or not these officers
manipulated and suggested answers to the
defendant.
Now, maybe they didn't g e t them on the

27th. Maybe t h e y got them l a t e r o n . But t h e y
have to decide that. And I can cite i n s t a n c e
a£ -- And t h e y weren't j u s t generally s p e a k i n g .
They were very s p e c i f i c . Did you have a n y t h i n g
to do with Teresa Halbach's urn, death? Urn, some
63
of the other statements they made. The promises.
They've led this jury to believe there's no
promises.
THE COURT: Well, here -- I --

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: (Unintelligible.)
THE COURT: I -- I get it. I g e t it.

And we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
I've made a ruling. Let's g e t t h e j u r y back in
here and let's move on.
(Jurors in at 3:24 p . m . )
THE COURT: Be seated. Counsel, you may
resume.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Thank you.
Q (By A t t o r n e y E d e l s t e i n ) Detective Wiegert, on

direct you described for t h e b e n e f i t of -- of the
State and the j u r y different techniques, um, that
are a common time, oftentimes, employed in t h e
interview of individuals; correct?

A Yes.
Q All right. One of those you described as the
superior knowledge tactic; sight?
A That's true.
Q And one you, urn, described in an effort to
ultimate -- t h e goal being to, quote, take
defensive layers off; right?
64
A That's true.
Q And I believe you used t h e -- the phrase, to

befriend the, uh, interviewee?
A Yes.
Q All right. So in connection with that, uh, it

wouldn't be unusual for you to say or -- say
things intended to, uh, have this individual like
you?
A Yeah. That's the goal.
Q And it wouldn't be unusual to say things to have

the individual believe you; right?
A That's true.
Q Okay. Now, again, um, going back to t h e 2 7 t h --

Well, before we get to t h e exhibit, is it fair to
say that as part of this process, and I'm
s p e a k i n g of the 27th, that you and your p a r t n e r
utilized a technique by d i r e c t l y appealing to the

emotions of Brendan Dassey?
A I think that would be f a i r .
Q And you did that how many times, if you know, on
t h e 27th?
A I'd have no idea.
Q On the 27th, urn, there were very distinct lies

told to the defendant, were there not?
A We'd have told the defendant many untruths. Yes.
65
Q Any i d e a how many?
A No.
Q Now, a s of November 15, 2005, you knew from

Eisenberg, the f o r e n s i c pathologist, t h a t there
were g u n s h o t wounds t o t h e head of Teresa
Halbach; correct?
A I can't comment on t h e date without s e e i n g a r e p o r t
with t h e date on. It was in that time frame. I know

that. B u t the exact date, I d o n ' t know.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Excuse m e . Did -- Did

you say t w o thousand -- November 15, 2005 or
2006?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I believe five.

THE WITNESS: Well, that would be
i n c o r r e c t , then.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Prior to speaking with

Brendan on the 27th -- Well, let me a s k you t h i s :
Were you p r e s e n t when the statement w a s made to
Brendan? And it might help you, uh -- I haven't
marked this quite yet, but c o u l d you t a k e a look
at this? And, if you can, tell me if you know

what it is? And mark it with whatever the next
number i s ?
A Sure. I t ' s a , urn, r e p o r t of the i n t e r v i e w from
February 2 7 , ' 0 6 of Brendan Dassey.
66
Q Okay. Does it also contain a transcript of the
reported conversation between yourself,
Fassbender, and ,Brendan?

A It does.
Q Okay. And, for t h e record, we'll mark that as

215.
A Sure.
( E x h i b i t No. 215 marked for identification.)
Q And that's, uh, something, I t a k e it, you've had
an opportunity to review before?
A Yes.
Q Directing your attention almost to t h e bottom of
t h e middle paragraph, if you will, you were --

First of all, you were present throughout this
entire, um, conversation we'll call it?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Does it n o t r e f l e c t the statement made in

your presence by Agent Fassbender directed toward
Brendan Dassey, quote, truthfully, I don't
believe Steven intended to kill her. Do you see
that? About three lines up from the large middle
paragraph?
A Sure. Yes.
Q Okay. A n d that was said to him, wasn't it?
A Yes, it was.
67
Q Is it fair to say that that was said in
connection with an attempt to persuade h i m that,
uh, it was important f o r him to give you

information, and that you and Agent Fassbender
didn't really t h i n k he did anything wrong, b u t

t h a t some other people might have believed that
he did?
A I don't really follow your question.
Q If you l o o k e d a little bit further up there --

A Okay.
Q -- do you think you -- Just t a k e a little bit
here and read that one paragraph so I can ask you
my next question. I understand you've had a l o t
of interviews. It's hard to remember everything.
D i d you g e t a chance to look t h a t over?
A Sure. Yep. Good.
Q Would it be a fair characterization, then, in t h e

e a r l y p o r t i o n of the contact with Brendan that
day, that there was an -- an e f f o r t on the part
of yourself a n d your p a r t n e r to convey to h i m
that t h e two of you didn't necessarily t h i n k he'd
done a n y t h i n g wrong, b u t there were some o t h e r
people t a l k i n g l i k e he was and you didn't
necessarily agree with that?

A Is that what we're trying to convey? Yes.
68
Q Yes. All r i g h t .
A In this paragraph? Sure.
Q Yes. In an attempt to gain his trust?

A That's what we do at interviewers. Yes.
Q And confidence?
A That's what we do as i n t e r v i e w e r s . Yes.
Q He was told -- And I'm -- On page 443, about

h a l f w a y down, you were present when he w a s told,
quote, you have to tell the truth. You have no

choice in that. Correct?
A That's what it says. Yes.
Q All right. In fact, as part of t h a t p a r t i c u l a r

discourse, Agent Fassbender went so far as to
say, quote, there's nothing more I'd like to come
over and give you a hug because I know you're
hurting. Remember t h a t ?
A Yes. And I t h i n k he meant that.
Q The very last line in that exchange, it contains
a promise, doesn't it?
A There's many promises made. Yes.
Q So t h e truth of t h e matter is, Investigator

Wiegert, that on the lst, when you went to see
Brendan, that t h a t was somewhat of a follow-up to
the events of the 27th; correct?
A Every successive interview that you do, you build off
69
of the previous one. Information that you learned on
that one, when you g e t more information, you build on

it.
Q All right. And it's not just information, but
it's techniques? The techniques vary from

interview to interview; correct?
A I don't t h i n k the techniques varied at all in these
interviews. No.
Q Well, l e t me a s k you t h i s : Do you rec -- You

watched this video w i t h us today; r i g h t ?
A Yes, sir.
Q At d i f f e r e n t times, uh, placement of yourself and

Fassbender changes, doesn't it?
A No. That's not true. I move over to t h e couch by

Brendan to have some pictures drawn. That's t h e o n l y
time any placement is moved.
Q Okay. Thatfs the only reason you went over there

by the couch by him?
A Yeah. So he could draw pictures.
Q Didn't you go over there so you c o u l d kind of

cozy up to him and g i v e h i m this? A pat on the
back l i k e we saw on the video?
A I don't know how I'd have him draw pictures from

across the room. I had to go over t h e r e and hand him
the things.
70
Okay. Isn't it true that, a s a technique of
interrogation, that, uh, you want this subject,
so to speak, to be comfortable in your presence?
C e r t a i n l y is. Yes.
And that's somewhat of a test when you move in a
little bit closer to somebody, isn't it?
Uh, it's not a t e s t . It's a technique that we use,
and when w e move in on somebody, what that does, it
takes t h e m out of t h e i r comfort zone. If you saw me
in that interview, I got a little closer to him. I
put my knee on -- or, excuse me -- hand on his knee.
What that does i s breaks down b a r r i e r s , because he's
got a barrier up against us.

Okay.
And when you w a l k over, a n d you g e t close to them,
that's w h a t you're d o i n g . That's what you're
attempting to do. But that was n o t -- Pard m e . That

was not my attempt when I sat on the couch. Earlier,
it was, when you saw me go over and p u t my hand on
his knee. Absolutely.
Well, in addition to his knee, you acknowledge

that you patted h i m on the back; right?
Sure.
Okay. Before you t a l k e d with him on the 27th,
d i d you know anything about h i s IQ?

A What I knew about Brendan Dassey was t h a t he was
in --
Q D i d you know a n y t h i n g about his IQ --
A (Unintelligible.)
THE COURT: Here. One at a time. Reask
t h e question, please.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Did you know anything

about h i s IQ a s of February 2 7 when you f i r s t
spoke with h i m ; y e s or no?
A About his IQ? No.
Q D i d you know anything about his memory? Whether

it w a s good? Bad? Poor? You didn't, did you?
A No.
Q Would you agree with m e that throughout the

course of t h e contacts you've had w i t h Brendan,
that, o f t e n t i m e s , he would be asked more than one
q u e s t i o n a t a single t i m e before he was allowed
to answer?
A In the March interview are you referring to?
Q Generally, a s t o March a n d February.

A I can't give you a n y s p e c i f i c s . I mean, everybody
saw t h e interview. I'm sure there were those

occasions. Sure.
Q D i r e c t i n g y o u r attention, urn, on page 446.
D u r i n g the course of the contact on the 27th, and
72
I'm l o o k i n g at t h e very bottom paragraph --
A Urn-hmm .
Q -- you t o l d him, in p a r t , this will bug you 'ti1
t h e day you d i e u n l e s s y o u ' r e h o n e s t about it.
Right?
A Yes. And I s t i l l believe that.
Q Now, if you would, take a look a t from the

b e g i n n i n g o f where you b e g i n to speak, at the
bottom of 4 4 6 , over t o page 447, about h a l f w a y
down where you see the f i r s t entry where it says,
Brendan?
A Yes.
Q All right. Immediately above the reference where

it says, Brendan, about halfway down on 4 4 7 , it
is stated t o h i m , I t h i n k you're b e i n g --
starting to be honest w i t h us about some things
r i g h t now. Correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Okay. From the bottom of 446, where you

b e g i n t o speak, a l l t h e way t h r o u g h t h e middle of
4 4 7 when that statement is made, he hasn't said a
single word to you, has he?
A I t h i n k y o u ' r e taking i t a b i t o u t of context. But
1 4 6 , c a n ' t q u e s t i o n , no, urn, h e hasn't, b u t before
t h a t , yeah, he has.
73
Q Well, it's fair to say that you guys -- you and
Fassbender a r e doing a l o t of t a l k i n g . Hers not
s a y i n g much; right?
A I ' d have to review t h e stuff prior to this. I can't

say that right now w i t h o u t reading this over. If
you'd like me to, I would.
Q No, you don' t need to.

A Okay.
Q Page 4 4 8 . Do you t h i n k it is a promise -- On the

first entry by your name, Detective, do you t h i n k
it's a promise to h i m when you say, we'll go to
bat for you, b u t you have to be honest with us?
A That's absolutely a promise, and I absolutely meant
that at t h e time.
Q And you -- Additionally, I t a k e it you would --

your answer would he the same, a b o u t halfway down
on that page, when it is s t a t e d to him in your
presence by, uh, Agent Fassbender, I promise you,
I'll n o t l e t you hang o u t there alone, but we g o t
to have t h e truth. Right?
A My same answer. You b e t .
Q Okay. O n page 451, please? You told h i m , it's
n o t your fault. R e m e m b e r that. Correct?
A Yes, I d i d .
Q Okay. And up -- And he really hasn't said
74
a n y t h i n g to you a t t h a t p o i n t , s i g n i f i c a n t , has
he?
A Again, I won't comment on t h a t unless you want me to
read w h a t he s a i d p r i o r t o t h a t .
Q No, that's f i n e .
A Okay.
Q B u t you acknowledge making that statement, it's
not your f a u l t . Right?
A I c e r t a i n l y did.
Q And then immediately thereafter, Fassbender, uh,

follows up without any sort of response from
Brendan, yeah, i t ' s n o t your f a u l t . Like I said,
Mark and I are not going t o leave you high and
dry. Right?
A Again, I said it, and I meant i t .
Q Well, d i d you -- You didn't say it, Fassbender
said it?
A Things before when I said, it's not your fault. If I
said it, I meant it.
Q Right. And you acknowledge that prior to Brendan

even responding in any way, shape, or form, or
being a s k e d for a response, it's -- your
statement is immediately followed up by
Fassbender r e i t e r a t i n g that very thought, that
it's not his fault. That he hasn't done anything
75
wrong. Right?
A A r e you saying that's what he says a f t e r me? Yeah,

that's what he says a f t e r .
Q Okay.
A Certainly.
Q And further down, is it not, the -- the question

is given to him, quote, what other parts did you
see? Right?
A Yep.
Q And isn't it true that at no t i m e , p r i o r t o that

statement b e i n g made t o h i m , d i d he acknowledge
s e e i n g any parts?
A Again, I won't comment on them unless you want me to
read e v e r y t h i n g prior to t h i s . But r i g h t after that,
he says, toes. He saw toes.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Begging the Court's
indulgence, in order to have t h e w i t n e s s answer
m y question, I would ask that he be given an
opportunity to review this in o r d e r to answer
that question.
THE COURT: Review what?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Pard me?

THE COURT: Review what?
ATTORNEY EDELSTETN: The witness
indicated he would like an opportunity to re --
76
review the portion of the exhibit before him,
prior to that statement being made to him on page
450 -- to my client on 451, in o r d e r to answer
the question. The q u e s t i o n being: He had n o t ,
prior to you making that statement, indicated he
saw a n y parts?
THE COURT: So you want him to read the
1 2 pages before that?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: If that's the only
way he can answer the question.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, uh, if I

may, I guess I'm going to object. It's not that
I have any objection to the officer reviewing the
report, or whatever. I'm going to g o back to
the -- to an earlier point and -- and I fail to
see the relevance of -- of the events t w o days
before as it pertains to this particular, urn,
cross-examination, uh, vis-a-vis, the inculpatory
statement obtained on March I. I mean, that's

two days earlier. It's of marginal relevance.
That's my concern. I don't have any -- The
o f f i c e r can read it if he wishes. That's fine.
THE COURT: Yeah. Well --

ATTORNEY FALLON: It seems cumulative.
THE COURT: And it may well be cumulative.
77
1
I think -- I t h i n k i t passes t h e relevance t e s t ,
and -- and I ' m g o i n g t o overrule your objection.
I -- I don't want t o be i n a position where every

time an answer i s given that we're going back and
rereading t h i n g s because we're going to be here a l l
night. I'm going to suggest, Counsel, you j u s t
proceed. Get the answers that t h e officer g i v e s and
w e ' l l move on from there.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Well, if it's going

to assist him to answer the question, he has the
materials available, I t h i n k , uh, he can refresh
h i s memory with that in order to answer t h e
question.
THE WITNESS: I'll do t h e best I can.

THE COURT: J u s t ask.
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) Isn't it true, and I'm

making r e f e r e n c e t o page 451, that Agent
Fassbender, in your presence on the 27th,
suggested by a s k i n g Brendan Dassey as follows:
Okay. A human body. Dot, d o t , d o t . Isn't it
true that prior to that phrase, "a human body",
b e i n g uttered by Agent Fassbender, that Brendan
Dassey n e v e r said a n y t h i n g about s e e i n g a human
body?
A Well, you can't tell from t h e transcript, because
78
&
that was t h e -- looks l i k e t h e inaudible part of the
transcript. So -- I mean, you know as much as what
Brendan said as I do. It says, I s e e n , dot, dot,
dot.
Q Nowhere does it say, p r i o r to Fassbender making

that suggestion in that form of a question, that
there was a human body; correct?

A He says he sees t o e s .
Q He said he saw toes prior to that, but he d i d n o t

say he saw a human body; c o r r e c t ?
A Again, I can't answer that, because it's -- it's n o t
here. It's on the inaudible part, I believe. I'm
assuming i t 3 s --
Q Do you believe it's on the inaudible part? Do

you have a distinct recollection of that? Or is
that j u s t a --
A Well --
Q -- convenience of testimony today?
THE COURT: Here. L e t h i m f i n i s h the
question before you s t a r t answering.
ATTORNEY FALLON: I -- That's

argumentative. I ask that it --
THE COURT: Well, it's --

ATTORNEY FALLON: -- be s t r i c k e n .
THE COURT: I'm going to let t h e question
79
stand. Answer it if you can.
THE WITNESS: If it's prior to the

videotape statement, which I believe it is, which
I indicated, when we talked about that statement,
that's why we went to Two Rivers, it's an
inaudible part, and I believe that's what's meant
by the dot, dot, dot.
Q But you don't know what's in -- contained in the
inaudible part, do you?
A No. That's why we did the next videotape statement.
Q Well, you're certainly not suggesting that there

are significant portions of this statement that
we are presently discussing that are inaudible,
are you?
A Yeah, 1 am.
Q Going to page 453?

A Yes.
Q Keeping in mind that -- Well, let me ask you

this: By the time you g o t to this part in your
contact with Brendan, didn't it occur to you that
he had some cognitive limitations?
A No. He was a mainstream student at Mishicot High

School. He was in Driver's Ed. He could answer
questions. He could understand. No. And I think
it's evident from watching the prior video --
80
Q Okay.
A -- that he can understand.
Q I didn't ask you what was evident to you.

A I'm not an expert in cognitive abilities, if that's
what you're asking.
Q I didn't ask you if you were an expert. I just
asked you if you believed he had cognitive

deficits?
A My answer was no.
(2 A11 right. O n page 453, you asked him, am I
correct, would you say yes or no for me, Brendan?
You see that?

A Uh, j u s t give me -- Yes, I do see that. Yes, s i r .
Q And without giving the response, is it f a i r to

say that he d i d exactly what you requested of
him? I. e., say yes o r no.

A No. I asked him a question and he answered t h e --
Q You asked him -- Go ahead.
A I asked h i m , would you say yes or no -- yes or no for
me, Brendan? And he says, yes.
Q All r i g h t . So he did e x a c t l y what you asked him

to do?
A He answered --
Q Say yes or no?
A -- my question. He answered my question.
81
The question was: Would you say yes o r no f o r
me, Brendan? Right?
H e answers, yes.
And that's how he answered?

That's how he answered my question.
Go a l i t t l e further down there, Detective. Urn,
t h e statement was made to him on the 27th --

for -- for your convenience, about f o u r lines
up -- a portion of it, uh, did you help him put
t h a t body i n the fire? I f you did, it's okay.
You acknowledge you made that statement to him?
I did make that statement to him. Yes.
Were you attempting to persuade h i m that if, in
fact, he did such a thing, i.e. putting a body in
a f i r e , that it was all right?

What you do i n an interview, is people --
I'm not a s k i n g f o r an explanation --

(Unintelligible) -- minimize.
-- I'm asking f o r an answer. My question is --

I think I'd have to expound on that answer.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, I ' m
just -- He's entitled to be rehabilitated by --

THE COURT: Yeah. Just answer the
question, please.
THE WITNESS: Could you just ask it

again? How you'd l i k e to --
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I'm s o r r y . Could
you read it back, please?
(Question read back by t h e reporter.)
A Was I attempting to persuade him? Yes.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) All right. Were you
attempting to persuade him that what he did was,
as you p u t it, okay?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, as a t r a i n e d investigator with

14 is it? 15? I can't --
A About 14.
Q All right. Fourteen years. You know that's n o t

true; r i g h t ? Somebody puts a body in a fire,
it's n o t okay?
A Right. It's n o t okay.
a So you acknowledge that that -- you called it

deception, I call it a lie. We call it whatever
we want. B u t it's n o t true, is it?

A It's n o t okay to p u t a body in a f i r e . That's true.
Q And t h e statement that you made to him was -- I

guess you would characterize it a s a deception?
A You can call it a l i e if you wish.
Q I -- I certainly will.
A That is true.
83
Q Thank you. Detective Wiegert, uh, as a result of
you being lead investigator, along with Agent
Fassbender, in this case, you've had an
opportunity to be present throughout the
proceedings; correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. So you've had the b e n e f i t of being able to
hear what a l l the other witness of this --

witnesses have said prior to your opportunity to
testify?
A That's correct. I've been here t h e whole time.
Q And you heard N i c k Stahlke testify; r i g h t ?

A I did.
Q Okay. He's our blood spatter man?

A Yes.
Q Okay. Had -- Had -- P r i o r to t h i s case, had you
ever been involved in any cases that, uh, might
have utilized blood -- blood s p a t t e r evidence?
A Blood spatter evidence? No.
Q Brendan was asked, was he not, on t h e 27th -- And

I'm making reference at 459?
A I'm t h e r e .
Q Okay. About t h e middle of the page. Question:

D i d he say anything about shooting her? You
asked him that; sight?
84
A Yes.
Q Okay. And you knew by the time you conducted

this interview, interrogation, whatever you want
to call it, that there was evidence of a gunshot
wound to Teresa Halbach; isn't that true?
Q Is i t f a i r to s a y that you did not follow up with

that particular question, urn, and I'm making
reference t o t h e shooting her question, anytime
soon following the time it was first proposed to
h i m during the c o u r s e of this interview?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Objection. Vague.
Indefinite.
THE COURT: Well, I have a -- a relevance
concern about that. Uh, what -- what --

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Well, l e t me --
That was p o o r l y phrased, Your Honor. Let me try
it a different way.
THE COURT: I agree.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) You knew, based upon

your role as one of the co-lead investigators,
there was evidence of a gunshot wound on that day
when you did the interview?

A We learned about it right in t h a t time frame that
there was possible gunshot wounds. That's correct.
85
Q All right. Urn, b u t if you would, take a l o o k at
459, then?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just on that page alone, is it correct that t h e r e

are f i v e questions given to him a f t e r y o u r
question t o him, quote, did he say anything about
shooting her?
A That would be accurate. Yes.
Q Okay. None of them are a follow-up as to having

anything t o do with a shooting; correct?
A That's correct.
Q Okay. Page 463, please?

A Okay.
Q Top third -- I guess everything p r i o r t o t h e

first e n t r y f o r Fassbender. You s t a t e d to him,
you didn't see it. D i d he t e l l you about it?
Correct?
A That's the question. Yes.
Q All right. Apparently there's no response;
right?
A Yeah, there's nothing there.
Q And then the next entry? Again, it's you

s p e a k i n g to Brendan. No. As in a question. No?
Say yes or no. Is that what it says? And is
that what you said to him?
86
A T h a t f s what it says. A l o t of times he would use
head yes or novs. That's why that m i g h t n o t be

there. But, uh, y o u ' r e correct i n s a y i n g t h a t ' s what
I say next, y e s .
Q And -- and, a g a i n , he did exactly what you told
him to do, and that is say yes or no, as his next
response?
A He answered t h e question I asked, yes.
Q Well, it r e a l l y wasn't a question. It was a
command, wasn't it? Say yes o r no. That's n o t a
question, is it?
A Call it a statement. Sure.
Q Pard me?
A It's a statement.
Q Well, you're telling h i m to do something, are you

not?
A Yes.
Q And he does, does he not?

A He does.
a Okay. On page 463 --

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Can you drop down a
little bit?
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) The question was p u t to

him, did he say where he cut himself? And Agent
Fassbenderfs making reference t o S t e v e n Avery;
87
right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And then there's no response; right?
A That's true.
Q Fassbender then suggests --

A I need to j u s t back up a little b i t . I can't say
there's no response. T h e r e may be inaudibles. There
may have been a response. But there's nothing i n t h e
text. You're --
Q All r i g h t .
A -- correct on that.
Q Okay. And t h e n Fassbender f o l l o w s up immediately

with -- on t h e k n i f e t h a t he used to k i l l h e r ,
yes or no. Correct?
A Yeah. That's what he says.
Q Okay. The next entry being, yeah?
A That ' s correct.
Q Do you know whether or n o t , and can you tell this

jury whether or n o t , the response, yeah, from
Brendan was in answer to t h e Fassbender i n q u i r y ,
d i d he say he c u t himself? Or whether it was a
response to t h e statement Fassbender makes, on

t h e k n i f e that he used to kill h e r , yes or no?
A I t h i n k by reading t h e transcript you would take away

that -- the second question, on t h e k n i f e that he
88
used to kill her, yes or no. Because d i r e c t l y after
that, he says, yeah.
Q B u t that's your interpretation of the t r a n s c r i p t
where there's no answer by Brendan; right?
A I would disagree. I think that's the way t h e

t r a n s c r i p t reads.
Q Okay. Directing your attention to page 464,

please?
A Sure.
Q About three-quarters of t h e way down?

A Yes.
Q Do you see where the question is asked of him,

did he say he had a gun with d o t , d o t , d o t ?
A Urn-hmm.
Q Okay. Is it correct that there are actually

three questions a s k e d of h i m before he's even
given an opportunity to respond?
A You mean in that one sentence?
Q Not in that one sentence, in the next -- in the

next three sentences? The next three entries?
Before there's a n y response? And there is no
blank space where you're anticipating a response;
right?
A That doesn't mean we're not anticipating a response.
There's sometimes long pauses. Again, if I could
89
refer back to t h e statement you saw in there,
sometimes it takes him awhile to answer f o r whatever
reason. H e q s thinking of a n a n s w e r . And that's not
accurately r e f l e c t e d in here.
Okay. But you don't know what -- whether t h e r e
was a pause?
I d o n ' t know, but I would suspect there was. But I
donft know. You're correct.
Okay. It's n o t an uncommon technique to pepper
an individual with questions? And that -- by
that I mean, a s k them in rapid succession by the
various investigators involved?
It's n o t a t e c h n i q u e that I use.
On page 466?
Yes, s i r .
You a s k the question, d i d he t h r e a t e n you?
Correct?
Yes.
Okay. And there is a response irregardless of
what it is; correct?
Yes.
That little exchange, if w e confine that to t h e
threats in this particular i n t e r v i e w , is it fair
to say t h a t t h e subject is changed by you during
the discussion of t h i s i s s u e of t h r e a t s , and you

simply say, go back t o the clothes. And that
o c c u r s within a matter of t h r e e or f o u r
questions?
Y e s , but he answers t h e question, so we changed
subjects.
Okay. Well, in regard to that, you never asked
him, urn -- The question was asked of him, what

d i d he say? Right?
Yes.
Okay. Urn, nobody asked him when t h a t was s a i d ;
correct?
No.
Nobody a s k e d him where it was s a i d ; correct?
That's correct.
Were you not interested in knowing that if -- if
someone has, i n fact, t h r e a t e n e d somebody, that
it would be important to know when that statement

was made?
Well, I t h i n k , again, you're t a k i n g it o u t of

context. I f you see t h e other interview as well, we
asked h i m that. Where did it happen? What did he
say? And even in here --

I'm t a l k i n g about this interview.
You're t a l k i n g about this portion of the interview.
I'm t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e interview as a whole.

A I t h i n k w e probably asked him a few times about that.
T h a t would be m y guess. That's in here. But you'xe

correct. When it says -- He -- he does answer that
question and then we move on.
Q Is it fair to say t h a t t h e r e was n o t a effort t o

f u l l y develop that as information, urn, a t t h i s
p o i n t i n t h e i n t e r v i e w of the 27th?
A At this point in t h e i n t e r v i e w , t h a t i s f a i r t o say.
Q You w e r e more i n t e r e s t e d i n going back t o other

things that might be more d i r e c t l y related to the
disappearance and death of Teresa; correct?

A We do move around in the i n t e r v i e w . T h a t i s correct.
Q A l l right. Well, is that, i n fact, the r e a s o n

that you s h i f t e d back to --
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your -- Your Honor,
I'm g o i n g t o interpose a n objection at t h i s p o i n t
and ask t h a t we approach.
THE COURT: Okay.

THE COURT: You may resume your
cross-examination.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, i f I
c o u l d have j u s t a -- a m i n u t e ? I may move onto
t h e , uh, March 1 -- I g u e s s I'm n o t q u i t e ready
to get to March 1, b u t we're close.
92
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) L a t e r in the day on the
27th, I think you said on d i r e c t , because there
was problems with -- or what you perceived to be
problems with the audiotape of the interview at
the school, you took him down to, uh, Two Rivers
Police Department; right?
A That I s correct. Yes.
Q Can you identify what's been marked as 214,

please?
A Certainly. That's a, uh -- another Miran& Rights
form like I explained during the last interview. Uh,
this is just another copy of that. Not the same one.
This is one that we read to h i m p r i o r to doing that
a u d i o -- excuse me -- videotape statement in Two
Rivers.
Q All right. Urn, this is what you use when you

have a criminal suspect, don't you?
A Not necessarily t r u e .
Q If you had a criminal suspect at a police

department, and you're going to question him, are
you telling us you're not going to read him this
mranda warning?
A No. That ' s not what I said. Yes, I would, if I had
a suspect t h e r e .
Q Okay.
93
A That I intended -- that -- There's some variations,
as -- as you know, that go into when you have to read
them their Miranda and when you don't have to read
them the -ran&. In this case, if I could explain

real quickly, the district attorney requested that we
Mirandize him p r i o r to taking that statement. So
that's why t h a t was done.
Q And the district a t t o r n e y is your legal adviser;

right?
A That is true.
Q Okay.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, I move,
uh, 214, please, into --
THE COURT: Any -- It's offered. Any
objection?
ATTORNEY FALLON: No.
THE COURT: Received.
Q (By A t t o r n e y Edelstein) When you went over there
to Two Rivers, your i n t e n t i o n w a s pretty much to

t r y t o memorialize the t y p e o f things t h a t you
discussed up at the school?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Without going into t h e tedi -- the tedium

o f , urn, question and answers, uh, t h a t may
have -- o r q u e s t i o n s t h a t may have been asked of
94
Brendan at that interview, is it fair to say that
it was you, Fassbender, a n d Brendan?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And is it also fair to say that some of
t h e same techniques that were employed earlier
at, uh, the high school, were utilized, a s w e l l ,
at Two Rivers?
A Yes.
Q And that would include lies?

A Yes.
Q And that would include attempts to appeal to his
emotions?
A Absolutely.
Q And it would include attempts to have him give
responses based upon leading questions containing
facts you believed to be true?
A There were some leading questions.
Q You can't t e l l us how many --

A No.
Q -- with -- without counting them up, I guess.

A That would be true.
Q Now, at the conclusion of that, is it f a i r to say

t h a t you were s t i l l of the opinion that Brendan
had n o t been totally honest with you?

A I would say that's a f a i r statement.
95
Q And I believe you, during the course of that
conversation, urn, made him understand from time

to time that you didn't t h i n k he was telling you
everything there was to tell?
A Yes.
Q Ultimately, he, and his mom, and, I believe, uh,

was it a brother -- you made arrangements -- you
and Fassbender made some arrangements f o r them to
stay up at Fox Hills?

A Yes. We had t a l k e d a b o u t that e a r l i e r . We certainly
did.
Q Okay. And that's a r e s o r t in Mishicot?

A That's correct.
Q Okay. A n d I believe your testimony was you
wanted him to stay up there f o r , um, con -- You
were concerned about his welfare?
A There were two reasons, which I had stated, and that
was one of the reasons. Yes.
Q Okay. And what were your t w o seasons?
A H i s s a f e t y and the integrity of that investigation.
Q And isn't it true, Investigator Wiegen, (sic)

that a n o t h e r reason was that you were attempting
to befriend him and his family?
A Had nothing to do with it.
Q Okay. Wasn't it true t h a t a n o t h e r reason you
96
wanted him up there was to isolate him?
A No. If I wanted to isolate h i m , h i s mother and his

brother wouldn't be there. No, that was n o t t r u e .
Q The last contact you have w i t h investigators on
the 27th was in -- i n i t i a t e d a t approximately
10:50 p . m . a t night; right?
A That is true. Yes.
Q And what time was the first contact a t the
school? I think you said about 12:30?
A Urn, I think it was 12:30, b u t , uh, we weren't with
him the whole time. I mean, we w e r e gone a long time

and we came back. Actually, Agent Fassbender came
back in t h e evening.
Q When you interviewed Brendan on the lst, where

did that take place?
A Uh, as I indicated before, that took place across t h e
courtyard here at Manitowoc County Sheriff's

Department.
Q Do you know how many times either you or Agent
Fassbender, during the course of t h e interview on

March 1, the video one that we all watched here
today, suggested to Brendan or told Brendan that
he was a liar?
A No, I don't know h o w many times.
Q Do you know how many t i m e s , a f t e r h e w a s told
97
that he was a liar, t h a t he changed his answer in
response to that sort of accusation?
A No, I don't know how many times.
Q B u t you acknowledge he did?
A Urn, I would acknowledge that we said that w e didn't
believe he was telling t h e truth at certain times.
Yeah, I would acknowledge t h a t . Absolutely.
Q Well, was he not t o l d --

(Exhibit No. 216 marked f o r identification.)
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Detective, let me hand

you what's been marked for identification as 216.
Do you recognize t h a t as a transcript of the
video interview that you and Agent Fassbender had
with Brendan on the l s t ?

A Yes.
Q Same one that we saw earlier; right?

A Uh, with a little bit of additional on the front
here?
Q Yes.
A Same one.
(2 Well, if you would -- Directing your a t t e n t i o n to

page 540 --
A Yes.
Q -- do you agree that that's, uh, pretty e a r l y in

the c o n t a c t ?
98
A Yes.
Q Okay. Brendan, on the lst, in your mind and the

mind of Fassbender, is, in fact, a suspect, isn't
he? When you conduct this interview, he is a
suspect in your mind; yes or no?
A No.
Q Is that why, on page 540, it was said to him by

Fassbender in your presence, I want to assure you
that Mark and I are both in your c o r n e r . We're

on your side?
A I'm not sure of t h e question, b u t we d i d say t h a t ,
yes.
Q Okay. T a k e a look at that middle paragraph.
Would it -- Is it a f a i r characterization and
interpretation of what Fassbender says that he is
encouraging Brendan to say things that might make
Brendan look a little bad in o r d e r for him to be
believed?
A He t e l l s him to tell the whole t r u t h . Don't leave
anything out. Don't make anything up.
Q We've already had an opportunity to see it. What
I'm asking you, is it a fair characterization

that t h e intent of that is to have h i m say things
which implicate h i m s e l f , and o n l y by doing so
would then you and Fassbender believe h i m ?
99
A The intent of an interview, as in this interview, is
to get him to tell the truth. That's t h e intent.
Q B u t it was t r i c k -- I t was, i n fact, s a i d t o him

that, and I'm about halfway in the middle of that
particular statement to him, even if those
statements are against your own interest, you
know what I mean, that -- then that makes you
might -- it might make you look a little bad, or
make you l o o k l i k e you were more involved t h a n
you want t o be. Uh, it's hard to do, b u t it's

good from t h e vantage point to say, hey, there's
no doubt you're telling the truth.
A Yes, that's what was said. Part of b r e a k i n g down
those b a r r i e r s .
Q And isn't the purpose of -- B u t doesn't that
e n c o u r a g e h i m t o s a y something irregardless of
whether it's t r u e or not?
A No.
a Because someone in a position of authority is

telling him that, if you say something t h a t
doesn't h e l p you, then we might believe you.
A No, I wouldn't characterize it that way.
Q On t h a t same page, he w a s encouraged once again,

quote, okay, you don't have to worry about
things. Any idea how many times he was told that
100
I
d u r i n g the course of that interview?
A No idea.
Q Would it surprise you if I were to suggest that

it was in excess of 75 times during t h e course of
t h e interview on the 1st that e i t h e r you or
Fassbender, in one form or a n o t h e r , said

something to him suggesting, or directly stating
to him, that he was a liar?
A I have no idea how many times. And several times we

told h i m we did n o t believe what he was telling us.
Yes.
Q Well, d i r e c t i n g your attention to page 587?

A Five eighty-seven?
Q Five eighty-seven.
A Yes, sir, I'm t h e r e .
Q Okay. About middle way down?
A Okay.
Q Fassbender: It's extremely, extremely important

you t e l l us this for us to believe you. That
statement was made to Brendan; right?
A Yes.
Q He didn't respond. And you immediately said,

come on, Brendan, what else? Right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Immediately before Fassbender makes t h e
101
statement h o w extremely important it is, you're
questioning him about her head; correct?
A Yes.
Q All right. You accused him, during the course of
this interview, of shooting Teresa; correct?
A Yep. A n d which he was able to resist every time we
accused him.
Q Well, t h e truth of t h e matter is, you don't know

if it's right and you don't know if it's wrong;
do you?
A Whether or not he shot Teresa?
Q Correct.
A I know he was there when she was shot. Whether he --
I don't --
Q L e t me stop you there. You know he was there

,because he told you that; right?
A And because of t h e evidence.
Q Well, these are the bleached jeans, Exhibit 58;

right?
A Uh, that's true. Yes.
Q Okay. You got them o u t of his house?

A That's true. Yes.
Q He told you they were there?

A H e did.
Q He willingly gave them to you?
102
A Absolutely.
Q And he told you t h a t h e got b l e a c h on t h e r e
because he cleaned up some stuff, at Steve's

request, in t h e garage?
A That's t r u e .
THE COURT: Counsel, why d o n ' t you
approach, please?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, I -- I

know it's almost 4:30. I guess I would j u s t
have -- I could w r a p up f o r today just real
quickly.
THE COURT: By 4:30?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: B y 4:30.
THE COURT: Go.
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) T h e s e jeans, the cuffs,
t h e bullets, the shells, the shovels, t h e s e a t ,
everything that the Government's paraded in here,
other than these, which contain what a r e believed
to be bleach s p o t s , which Brendan told you about,
none of these items have fingerprints, DNA, or
any other scientific evidence c o n n e c t i n g Brendan
Dassey t o the death of Teresa Halbach; yes or no?

A That's correct. They had five days to clean up.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: No o t h e r questions
for today, Your Honor.
103
THE COURT: Is this the -- Are -- Can --
You concluded your cross-examination?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I doubt it.

THE COURT: A r e you asking to adjourn today
and reconvene tomorrow and c o n t i n u e the
cross-examination?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: I am, Your Honor.
I -- I'll have an opportunity t o r e v i e w t o n i g h t ,
and I s h o u l d be able t o , hopefully, not t a k e as
l o n g tomorrow.
THE COURT: All right. All right. We
will, then, a d j o u r n f o r t o d a y , ladies and gentlemen.
We're going to reconvene tomorrow at 8:30, run until

noon. I'll give you the same admonition I d i d
before. Please d o n ' t speak about this case amongst
yourselves, or to anyone else, or a n y t h i n g connected
with it. Thank you.
(Court stands adjourned at 4:26 p . m . )
104
)SS.
R e p o r t e r f o r Circuit Court Branch 3 and t h e S t a t e
of Wisconsin, do hereby c e r t i f y that I reported
the foregoing matter and that the f o r e g o i n g
t r a n s c r i p t has been carefully prepared by me with
my computerized stenographic notes as taken by me
in machine shorthand, and by computer-assisted

transcription t h e r e a f t e r transcribed, and t h a t i t
i s a t r u e and correct t r a n s c r i p t o f the
proceedings had i n s a i d m a t t e r t o the best of my
Dated this j 14
- d a y of d ) eI f' L m b, 2007.
O f f i c i a l Court Reporter
105
afternoon [5] 4121 5l21 7/14 811 38/22
age [2j 42/16 42l7
Agent 1251 511 7l7 815 9114 10115 1OD0
10124 11111 13ff 18117 1911 521195418
56110 67118 8814 69113 74138 78117
78122 8412 87124 97112 97119 98113
agree [7] 3/21 4611 1 6315 68124 72114
alone [Z] 74119 8614

along [3] 24119 2517 84l2
amongst [I]104115
analogy [3] 60110 6118 6119
analyzed [ I ] 60112
anatomical [I] 24122
animated [ I ] 35/25
animation [Z] 34113 35124
anticipating [3] 53110 89/22 89124
anybody [3] 10111 14118 1618
approach [3] 5313 92/17 103ff

appropriate [ I ] 22117
appropriately [2] 24118 25110
approximately [4] 7110 7/24 22110 9715
assaulted [ I ] 2511
56122 60118 61116 62R 66125 7218
assumed [ I ] 42110
attempts [4] 54112 55111 95111 95114

attention [5] 67112 7 m 4 89l7 98/21
23124 24113 2711 34117 3711 3718 44/25 drew 1121 27111 27119 2816 2817 28116
C 45110541225511459117601863119 28/25311832/1321113211532118
conversation [3] 6712 67115 96lZ 6504 65125 48117
convey [Z] 68/20 68l25 defendant's [ I ] 7116 Drivel's [ I ] 80123
cop [ I ] 1714 defendants [I] 59118 drop [1] 87121
cops [ l ] 1018 defensefll] 312321152411 531185419 d r y j l ] 75114
copy [ l ] 93112 59116 60117 6114 82112 63112 63113 dugout 111 31R3
corner [2] 48/25 99B defensive [2] 15E2 MI25 duly [ I ] 4113
correctly [2] 2816 5211 1 deficits [ I ] 8118 duties [I] 39121
couch [4] 19/21 70114 70118 71118 denied [ I ] 55/14 DVD [I 31 2 111 2214 2215 22123 22124
counsel [Q] 3)2 3115 3119 2311 5313 6214 department [ I 51 6124 718 7112 7115 7122 2314 2315 23119 23/20 37115 37M1 3818
64111 7816 1OW6 1219 l U 1 7 16/22 1913 19113 19116 3819
counting [ I ] 95l20 19118 93B 93l20 97118
county[8] 11116M218112371T40l7 depict[l]47/21 E
51123 97117 I0512 depicted [ I 21 2719 27118 2813 29114 earlier [ I 21 9/13 26114 29122 5011 5111
couple [Z] 5517 61123 30lQ 30E3 31l24 3218 32114 32/16 5117 71118 77115 77120 9515 96/70
course [ I 21 I313 I318 2 112 4715 72115 35111 3614 98116
72l25 85111 9611 97/20 I0111 10114 depictlon [5] 27113 29l9 29118 30116 early 131 39/25 68118 98124
10214 46l25 ease [ I ] 2211
Court's 121 3/22 76116 depicts [ I ] 27119 easily [ I ] 1016
courtyard [ I j 97117 depression [2] 2818 31125 east [I1 4911
Cover 111 l0/8 described [4] 46112 64115 84l20 64R3 Ed [ I ] 80M3
covered p ] 17119 39110 desk [ll35119 EDELSTEIN [45] It21 2/12 3110 2119
cozy [ I ] 70121 detailed [I] 5212 2 1112 24l3 38l2 1 3916 39l0 4514 45l6
crafted [ I ] 60125 detective [7] 39118 50115 64114 74110 54115 5815 58114 63L2 6415 64113 64114
crime [4] 8113 913 14119 15116 8 2 6 8411 98110 66113 66116 7217 76116 76122 76/24
criminal [S] 50111 50119 5113 93117 detective's [ I ] 19116 77l9 7819 78116 82121 83L2 8316 85116
93119 determination [ I ] 6016 85/20 87121 87123 92122 9311 94112
cross [ I l l 2112381193812038122 3915 develop [ I ] 92B 94118 98110 10318 103113 103115
3918 84ff 77118 92121 10412 10419 device [ I ] 5214 'I03M4 10413 10417
cross-examination 171 2112 38119 39W die [ I ] 7314 educating [ I ] 51D
77118 92/21 10412 10416 difference [ I ] 51/14 effort [3] 64/23 68119 9215
CSl [ I ] 19124 differences [I] 5114 efforts [2] 24110 6316
cued [ I ] 22117 direct [9] 211 1 4118 43/21 5111 54MO eight [ I ] 47111
cuffs [ I ] 103115 5616 57118 64115 9312 eighty [2] 101113 101114
culmination [ I ] 49123 directed [I] 67118 eighty-seven [2] 101113 101114
cumulative 121 77i24 77E25 directing[5]671T272/24891798121 Eisenberg[2]34/146614
current [ I ] 21M5 101112 elaborate [I 1 29110
custodial [5] 5914 59110 59116 8211 6215 directly [4] 65117 8911 92110 10117 eleven [2] 3515 47115
custody [ I ] 6011 dirt [2] 31110 31121 ELMO [2] 28RO 4813
cut 131 29R 87l24 88121 disagree [I] 8915 emotions [2] 65118 95112
disappearance[3]40134311892111 employ[2] 13t716112
D disclosed [ I ] 54l6 employed 151 13l2 1419 15/25 64117
DASSEY[36] 1161l23314513515516 discourse[I] 69/13 9515
5123 5125 6 W 618 7125 8110 1OK! 1 10125 n
discuss [3] I0118 57114 61 1 employee [2] 40ff 4017
1111 1 1 2 12/193411742124311750l7 discussed[4] 8ff81758I2394121 encourage [ I ] 100116
5011150114501185414551555110 dis~ussing~2]5612380113 encouraged [ I ] 100123
56114 57119 65118 66125 67119 7211 discussion 181 3115 3118 19l6 23123 5315 encouraging [ I ] 99116
78119 78123 103l22 6015 90l25 92119 end [ I ] 38117
date [7] 1110 4118 50110 6318 66l7 8W8 discussions [2] 59R0 60E enforcement [ I ] 1014
66l9 distinct [3] 59111 6323 79115 enforcement's [ I ] 9120
dated 141 27114 27l24 28l9 105115 district [5] 1114 6118 2617 9415 9418 engage [ I ] 13l24
day [27] 115 4/25 513 5l7 5119 6l6 8110 DNA [2] 26/22 1 0 3 ~ 0 entire [ I ] 87115
9151118161118/2235~3811739122 doghouse[3] 28fl3111631118 entirely 111 56113
39/22 4311 1 50Ml 50122 54110 6012 doing 181 7118 13/22 14l22 2613 71116 entitled [4] 56119 58110 63112 02/22
60111 60113 68119 7314 85l22 9311 74l2 93113 98/24 entries [ I ] 89/20
t 05115 door [8] 3315 3416 35114 35115 3816 entry [6] 3816 73110 74110 86115 8W22
day-to-day [ I ] 39Q2 3616 56121 5719 88116
days [ I 01 5l7 43l9 44123 4518 4518 doorway [2]34l7 35113 entwined [ l ] 62115
59RO 61123 77116 77/20 103l23 dot [I21 78120 78/20 78/20 79E3 79B equates [ I ] 15l20
dealing [ I ] 56/2 7914 8017 8017 8017 89113 88113 89113 especially [ I ] 61115
deals [ I ] 5919 doubt [2] 100112 104l3 essence [1] 57121
death 131 63125 92l11 103122 Dr. [ I ] 34/14 essentially [7] 54117 5518 55118 56l6
December [ I ] 44116 Dr. Eisenberg [ I j 34114 56117 58/25 61110
deception [3] 1317 83118 83/22 draw [4] 33124 51119 70119 70123 established [I]39125
deceptive [ I ] 13112 drawer [1] 35/20 estimate [1] 25116
decide [3] 11116 63117 63122 drawing [8] 2814 2815 29121 30l25 31111 evening [5] 10117 10118 I l l 1 56112
decided [4] 6l22 8115 8119 9118 32117 4714 47111 97113
declined [ I ] 7121 drawings [2] 26125 2716 event [2] 41/22 48121
Deere 121 30120 3618 drawn [B] 28114 3 1I17 31118 35118 36& events [7] 3719 39121 59124 60113 60R4
defendant [34] 117 1/20 1122 1/24 3110 70115 69/24 77116
4122 4l24 5115 5E4 7111 8122 9114 draws [ I ] 33125 eventually [1] 3412
101171213131414/1018/1161151818 dresser[l] 28/14 everybody [3] 8115 4317 72121
intention [ I ] 94119 Ken [ I ] 318
H intentionally [ I ] 24116 KENNETH [ I ] 1/13
horrific [1] 9110 interest [ I ] 10016 kill [4] 67/20 88113 88123 8911
Hotel [ I ] 9116 interested [2] 91115 9 u 9 killed [ I ] 50R2
hours [ I ] 21/22 interpose [ll92116 knee [4] 71111 71111 71/20 71El
house [3] 33114 44117 102121 interpretation [2] 89l3 99115 knife [5] 27110 28125 88113 88123 88125
hug [ I ] 69/15 interrogate [ I ] 51117 knowing [1] 91115
human [5] 78120 78121 78/23 7917 interrogation [Q] 13El 5116 59110 59117 known [2] 12110 4114
791f 0 6017 6211 6216 71l2 85B KRATZ [%I 1113 318 6119 6120 2512 1
hurtina Ill 69116 interrogations [ I ] 59116 2512 1
interview [go] 4/22 4M4 815 618 6110
I 6/18 6118 6120 8/21 8125 712 7111 7114
L
I'd 171 12125 2715 85/22 69114 70123 7118 7/20 7/23 8/3 814 817 818 8114 8115 label [2] 3015 3016
7414 82120 10116101191u912/191212112123 labeledIll27122
1'11[11] 211423110241751111551759ff 12125131213161418141141411815114 lack[I] 5717
6318 74119 78114 10418 104114 15124 1815 1912 1914 19110 I9111 ladies [2] 20114 104112
I'm [50] 3l2 16l9 1815 20110 28118 31112 19115 24115 25/25 26110 2911 37115 laid [ I ] 27/23
34122 34123 35l9 36l2 3819 42117 42118 4317 43122 4518 4715 5115 51116 5511 lamps [ I ] 19/22
4413 48/23 47125 48B 5111 I52111 5511258i2158l24611128311564118 lapse[I] 60111
52121 58114 62/22 62R2 65115 6917 66124 69125 70l6 70l6 71110 72119 large [I] 67121
72122 7311 77112 77/14 78l2 7816 78116 72122 82116 8513 85111 85123 90n3 laser 121 31113 49l2
79112791258114821178211982121 91120BlM391~49112592~9218 later [to] 10117 10l25 1115 11113 1913
83i2 84/21 84122 8518 Qt123 93/25 92112 9314 93111 9511 97l20 98113 9914 29/25 4319 56111 63121 9311
9211692124991~199i2210014101115 100l1100l1101ll1011510215 law 161 1120 1122 9120 1014 2112 53/20
I've p ] 14122 1718 17119 37114 37114 interviewed [4] 517 20B 3317 97114 lawnmower [4] 27122 30120 30/24 3618
6418 84111 interviewee [I] 6513 layers 131 15M1 15/22 04/25
i.e [2] 81116 8U14 interviewer [1] 16110 laying [I] 2817
idea [a 1918 59118 65122 8611 100l25 interviewen [3] 55E4 6914 691% layout [2] 32122 36/22
10112 l o l l 9 interviewing [4] 819 1318 1411 1815 lead [4] 40l2 51/21 84l2 85/21
identification[6]1611934/2436136718 i n t e r v i e w ~ [ ~ 3 ] 8 ) 2 0 9 1 5 1 1 1 8 1 1 ~ 3 leading[4]26111551209511595117
9819 98111 13123 14/23 15115 15123 2513 5415 learn [ I ] 32124
identified [2] 5115 58123 88111 68114 7018 learned [ l o ] 6/19 818 10l21 11112 11114
identify [1] 9318 introduce [3] 53118 54112 61114 2614 3516 45l2 7011 85l24
Illustrate [ I ] 35112 introducing [ I ] 2111 learning [ I ] 11117
immediately [7] 1518 73113 75110 75l23 introduction [I] 53123 leave 141 47125 61110 75113 99119
88112 101122 l o l l 2 5 investigation [6] 1015 10113 34/11 35/25 leaves [ I ] 56117
implicate [ I ] 99124 5113 96/20 leaving 111 57120
implies [l] 1512 investigative [3] 24110 32/23 39121 led [4] 4418 58l7 6015 6412
impression [2] 31/23 57/24 investigator [ I 31 4110 4/20 15R 21116 legal [ I ] 9418
inaudible [B] 7811 79112 79114 8016 8019 21124 2415 24121 3713 39115 69121 legally [ I ] 58118
80113 83110 84D 96121 legs [ I ] 3X20
inaudibles p] 88/7 investigators 161 25122 40l2 51E1 85121 lengthy [3] 25115 4317 45114
incident [ I ] 14119 90112 9714 less [3] 8R 2417 36114
including [3] 38/6 5213 58112 involvement [5] 11/24 1519 15113 43118 letter [ I ] 5718
inconsistencies [ I ] 5015 6213 lettering [ I ] 3019
inconsistency [I]45/20 lQ [4] 71125 7213 7218 72110 llar [3] 97123 981t 10 118
incorrect [3] 6116 6118 66115 irregardless [Z] 90119 100116 lie [2] 83118 83123
inculpatory 151 58124 6016 62i9 6 2 15 isolate [2] 9711 97E lies [2] 65123 95/9
77118 issue [ I ] 90R5 light [ I ] 2011
indeed [ I ] 53/14 issues [ I ] 3117 lighting [ I ] 19/22
Indefinite [ I ] 85113 Jterns I21 32113 103RO Ilkes [ I ] 14/22
indicate [1] 1717 limitations [ I ] 80E1
individually [1] 60113 J line [5] 9/22 51119 51119 51/20 69118
individuals [ I ] 64118 Janda [ I ] 7117 lines [Z] 67/27 8218
inducements [2] 18121 60119 jeans [2] 102118 103115 lit [ I ] 3011
indulgence [I]76l17 Jennifer [3] 213 10514 105118 little [28] W 9 l I 911 11117 11118 11118
inference [ I ] 5519 JEROME [ I ] 1/11 1311 141t5 15118 1711 2917 29110 30114
inform [I] 6119 job [ I ] 9121 35119 39111 5114 5214 68l9 68111 71l6
informed 141 3116 714 10120 1OR4 Jodi 141 34116 47120 48/20 49123 71110 82& 87l22 886 90122 98117
initial 151 15113 17120 17/22 1812 18111 John [2] 30120 3618 99117 10018
initially [3] 32i23 33110 41112 jump [1] 3911t lived [3j 8116 9123 4211 1
initials [2] 30l2 3013 jurors [5] 311 3116 416 5318 64110 living [ I ] 19/20
initiated [3] 6014 6019 9715 jury [I81 114 3/43 3/14 3/25 20116 23111 located [ I ] 6i2
initiator [ I ] 59119 42/23 5316 5411 58/17 5817 6313 63110 location [2] 19110 3718
inquiry Ill 88120 83117 6412 8418 64/16 88119 locations [2] 52l24 52/24
instance [3] 55113 55124 63122 long 151 7)24 14123 89l25 97111 104110
instances [ I ] 6218 K looks [Z] 33/14 7911
instincts [I] 14120 Kayla[15] 40125411341l94111241113 losing[2] 411541120
instruction [3] 412 20111 2113 41117 41119 4311 4414 4418 4411 1 4411 1 lost [1j 41124
integrity [2] 1015 96120 4519 4611 4615 lot [8] 8119 39110 40118 50113 50116
intend [I] 63t7 keep111 11117 68113 74L2 8711
intended 141 4/22 6 W 67l20 9411 Keeping [ I ] 80118 lurninol [3] 29/23 29/24 3011
intent 131 99123 10011 10012 keeps [ I ] 11118 lunch [ I ] 2319
too [ I ] 36/11 5512
T Top [ I ] 86/14 vis [4] 32/22 32/22 77118 77118
team [ I ] 43113 totally [ t ] 95/24 vis-a-vis 121 32122 77118
technique 191 13/24 141t4 14116 161t 1 toward [1] 67118
65117 7111 7117 9019 90113 Town [ I ] 37l6
W
techniques [ I 01 13/2 13116 14N 15125 trailer [4] 2W13 33l2 34l6 3715 W-i-e-g-e-r-t [ I ] 4117
1617 64116 7015 7015 70f7 9515 trained [I] 83110 waited [I] 7121
tedi [I] 94123 transcribed [ I ] 105111 waiting [ I ] 7/21
tedium [I] 94/23 transcript [I61 212 20122 20R5 2118 5213 waiver 141 I8118 16/23 17/24 371t8
teenager [ I ] 4215 5216 5611 6711 78/25 7912 88L24 8913 walk [21 3415 71115
telling[17]10111111181112512112 89169811210518105112 walks [1] 33113
33117 3411 44/24 47117 57116 57119 transcription [ I ] 105111 wall 19125 28115 3313 35121 4915
87115 93/21 9813 9816 100112 100120 transcripts [ I ] 20115 4918 4911 1 49112
101110 trees [ I ] 58119 warning 131 16/18 16122 93/22
tells [5] 9110 33122 4511 4519 99119 trial 141 114 115 26/14 29122 warrant [Q] 25/23 2613 26/15 26l9 26112
tender [ I ] 38119 trick [ I ] 10013 26116 26118 33116 33l22
Teresa 1271 24110 24R3 28/22 27/23 trooper [4] 34111 34119 35124 36119 warrants [ I 1 331
3211 32118 33/9 33112 3517 3518 4013 trust [ I ] 6913 watch 111 1714
43/19 43/23 44110 44112 44/25 45110 trustworthiness [31 2117 62116 62/20 watched [2] 70110 97/21
45115 4W19 50123 63/25 6615 8515 truth [ I 11 57117 57119 5702 69l9 69121 watching [2] 20117 80l25
9213 1 t 0215 102111 I03l22 74RO 9816 99119 10012 I00112 10218 water [I] 59122
Teresa's [ I ] 28116 truthful [2] 55111 56/15 ways 121 1413 1417
term [ l ] 5718 truthfully [ j ] 67119 wearing [I] 5110
terms [ I ] 18U try [4] 15118 1618 85117 94/20 weight [2] 4115 41120
test [4] 25112 7115 7117 7811 trying [ I ] 68125 welfare [ I ] 96/16
testimony 1121 31115 34/10 40/25 41114 TV [2] 1714 19123 west [ I ] 4911
4411551955118571175817581879118 two[39]6123718711171149149118 Wherets[1]4912
96114 1014 10113 17l7 18121 26/20 28123 30l2 Wherein [8] 2214 2215 22123 22/24 2314
text [ I ] 8819 3515 35119 35/20 40l9 4711 1 47115 2315 23119 23120
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STATE OF WISCONSIN : C I R C U I T COURT : MANITOWOC COUNTY
BRANCH 3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,

TRIAL DAY 6
VS . Case No. 0 6 CF 8 8
BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
DEFENDANT.
DATE : APRIL 21, 2007

BEEORE: Ron. Jerome L. Fox
APPEARANCES :
KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
THOMAS J. FALLON
S p e c i a l Prosecutor
On behalf of t h e State of Wisconsin.
NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
MARK R. FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
On behalf of t h e defendant.
Attorney at Law
On behalf of t h e defendant.
BRENDAN R . DASSEY
Defendant
Appeared in person.
--
1 COPY
TRAMSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Official C o u r t Reporter
I N D E X
WITNESSES PAGE
MARa WIEGERT
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 4-50
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 50-56
Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN 56-61
hmTION 64-70
KRIS SCHOENENBERGER-CROSS
Direct E x a m i n a t i o n by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 70-84
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 98-103
BIAINE DASSEY
Direct Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 104-113
MICHAEL KORNELY
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY GAHN 131-133
WITNESSES MARKED MOVED ADMITTED
215 62 62
216 61 61
217-221 104 104
223 104 104
224 83 104 104
3
THE COURT: Morning, ladies and gentlemen,
morning counsel. This is, f o r t h e record, S t a t e v s .
Dassey, 06 CF 88. Appearances.

ATTORNEY FALLON: Morning, Your Honor.
If it please t h e Court, t h e State continues i n

its appearance by Special Prosecutors Ken K r a t z ,
Tom F a l l o n and Norm Gahn.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Mark
Fremgen, Attorney Ray Edelstein appear with the

defendant in person.
THE COURT: I believe, uh, we were

crossing -- or -- or, uh, Mr. Edelstein was
cross-examining Investigator Wiegert.

THE C L E M : You want h i m to be sworn?
THE COURT: Uh, we'll re-swear h i m ,

yeah.
MARK WIEGERT,
called as a witness herein, having been first d u l y

THE CLERK: Please be seated.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Proceed.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Thank you, Your

Honor.
CROSS-EXAMZNATION CONT'D
4
Q Morning, Detective.
A Morning.
Q You have before you up there by the witness stand

a copy of the 3/1 transcript previously marked,
and you'll have to help me out, what sticker

number is on that?
A Uh, 216.
Q V e r y good. And that's t h e one that, uh, you've

previously identified; coxrect?
A Yes.
Q All right. D i r e c t i n g your attention to page 572,

please, j u s t generally, Detective Wiegert, can
you tell this j u r y how many times during the
course of this some three-hour exchange between
you and Fassbender and t h e d e f e n d a n t did one or
the o t h e r of you, n o t speaking o f Brendan, of
course, suggest to h i m an answer? Do you know?

I don't know t h a t you need to look at
t h e t r a n s c r i p t s to answer that o n e . How many
times during t h e course of t h e exchange d i d you

or Fassbender suggest an answer to Brendan?
A From this page?
Q No. During the three-hour interview.

A I don't know. I couldn't answer that.
Q Would you agree that it was c e r t a i n l y more than
5
201
A No, I wouldn't agree w i t h that u n l e s s I counted them

up. I have no idea.
Q Okay. So you haven't -- When's the last time you
actually read t h r o u g h that?
A Urn, probably three days ago.
Q Well, t a k e a l o o k , if you would, at page 572,

f o u r t h l i n e down, you t e l l h i m , do you not, come
on, be honest, you went in that back room. You
told him that; didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Okay. He didn't -- Or the next e n t r y is, tell us

now, Brendan. Correct? And that's by
Fassbender?
A Yes.
Q And you followed up before he has any opportunity
to say a n y t h i n g , we know you were back there.
Correct?
A That's part of t h a t superior knowledge which we
t a l k e d about yesterday.
Q Well, i s it s u p e r i o r knowledge or is it a flat
out lie? Because we've t a l k e d about different

techniques, lies being one and superior knowledge
being another? Correct?
A Yes.
6
Q T r u t h of t h e matter i s , when you t a l k e d t o him on
the l s t , you had, quote, no superior knowledge
from a f a c t u a l standpoint that he was ever even

back there; t r u e or f a l s e ?
A Part of Mr. -- Thatfs t r u e . It's --
Q All right.
A -- telling Mr. Dassey -- or getting Mr. Dassey to
t h i n k t h a t we had superior knowledge l i k e we t a l k e d
about.
Q Okay. But it's a f a l s e statement to him; isn't

it?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Let's talk a b o u t that, because you

apparently -- you're obviously w a n t i n g him to
say, y e s , 1 was back t h e r e . Correct?
A No. I'd l i k e him to tell us the truth whether he was
back there o r n o t .
Q Well, within the -- the s h o r t frame of t h r e e

lines, both you and Fassbender t e l l him t h a t you
believe he w a s back there. Correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. During the course of this investigation --

and you're t h e -- one of the two lead
investigators -- was the carpet f r o m t h e back
bedroom ever removed?
7
A I know a portion of it was. I don't know if it a11
was or not, b u t there was a portion of that carpet
removed, y e s .
Q Well, you're the lead investigator. It seems to

me you would know what evidence has been
submitted to your lab f o r analysis, wouldn't you?
A I have a general knowledge of what went to the Crime

Lab, y e s .
Q A n d what was t h e purpose of submitting that
carpet to t h e Crime L a b ?
A Again, I don't know for sure if that carpet went to

t h e Crime Lab or j u s t one of o u r techs looked at it.
I --
Q All right.
A -- I couldn't ans --
Q Let me a s k you this: Given the questioning
r e g a r d i n g t h e location of items i n that back
bedroom, would it have made any sense at a l l to
you, as an investigator, to have taken the carpet
to have it looked at to determine any s o r t of
wear patterns that might be evident?
A No, I don't t h i n k wear patterns would have told us
anything.
Q Pard me?
A No, I don't t h i n k wear patterns would have told us
8
anything.
Q Well, you've got carpet in your house, I guess,

somewhere, don ' t you?
A Yes, s i r .
Q Okay. Carpet under a piece of furniture tends
n o t to get worn out, whereas, areas immediately
s u r r o u n d i n g that type of furniture t e n d s to show
some sign of wear, doesn't it?

A That would be true.
Q Okay. So wouldn't it have made sense in your
o p i n i o n as an investigator to pull that to

determine -- in order to try to verify some of
the things that Brendan said about t h e location
of the furniture? Wouldn't t h a t have made sense
to you?
A No, that wouldn't have made sense. Mr. Avery o n l y

was in that trailer for maybe a year. It wouldn't
have made a d i f f e r e n c e .
Q Okay. Well, again, as to the back bedroom, on

March 1 Brendan told you, did he not, that he cut
Teresa's throat?
A Yes.
Q All right. Y e t there was absolutely no evidence
of blood s p a t t e r or blood p o o l i n g in the bedroom;

correct?
9
A You're talking about t w o different things. B u t there
was no blood s p a t t e r and we didn't f i n d any pooling,
which I'm n o t surprised about at all.
Q Well, in the bedroom, was it a -- a mattress

only? Was there a box s p r i n g ?
A I believe there was a mattress and box spring.
Q Okay. Did you personally examine t h e mattress?

A I did not. Our evidence techs do that work.
Q And you discovered from the evidence techs that

there was absolutely no evidence of blood on that
mattress; correct?
A Not surprisingly. He's correct.
Q Was t h e r e any luminol sprayed in t h e back

bedroom?
A Yes.
Q Nothing to i n d i c a t e t h e presence of blood in the

back bedroom; true?
A Not true.
Q Was there any on t h e bed? The bedding?

A The bedding was burned. There would be no way to
tell.
Q Well, how do you know the bedding was burned?

A Brendan Dassey told us t h e bedding was burned in the
f i r e after they killed Teresa.
Q Okay. And Brendan Dassey a l s o t o l d you that he
10
c u t Teresa's hair, didn't he?
A Yep.
Q B u t t h e t r u t h of the matter is t h r o u g h o u t t h e
course of this investigation you didn't find one
single h a i r f i b e r t h a t could be i d e n t i f i e d t o
Teresa Halbach; right?
A That's true.
Q All right. So he told you that, but you -- What?

You don't believe it o r you do believe it?
A No, I believe he cut t h e i r -- her hair.
Q Okay. T h i s was a carpet cleaner; r i g h t ?
A That is true.
(;Z You guys seized t h e vacuum, didn't you?

A We did.
Q You had somebody go through that vacuum to

determine t h e presence of t h i n g s l i k e hair,
didn ' t you?
A Y e s , we d i d .
Q And you found none; true?
A Not true. We found l o t of h a i r .
Q D i d you find any you could i d e n t i f y as Teresa's?
A Doesn't work that way.
Q D i d you f i n d any you could i d e n t i f y as Teresa's?
A No. But I'd like to explain if you'd l i k e me to.
Q 1'11 give you a chance.
11
A Sure.
Q Did you have, during the course of your

opportunity to be involved in this case, the
opportunity to get from Teresa's residence a n y
hairbrushes?
A We did.
Q So you had samples of her hair; correct?

A Yes.
Q But none of what you found in the -- at t h e
trailer was able to be matched up to a n y that
came from any of h e r hairbrushes; right?

A Again, not true.
Q Well, is t h e r e -- did the lab provide you any

s o r t of r e p o r t indicating there was a match
between the h a i r of what was found at the scene
and what you believed to be Teresa's hair?
A There was no hair attempted to match up. And there's
reasons f o r that.
Q Well, I'm sure the State will give you a chance

to explain that. But I find it somewhat curious
when you tell u s that you believe some things b u t
you don't necessarily believe the others that he
told you?

Argumentative.
12
THE COURT: Objection's sustained.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Detective, how many

times during t h e course of this three-hour
exchange d i d you or Fassbender t e l l Brendan, urn,
in an e f f o r t to have h i m tell you things, it's

n o t your f a u l t , Steve made you do it?
A Quite a few times as you guys saw yesterday.
Q Pard me?
A Quite a f e w times as the jury saw yesterday.
Q B u t you don't know how many?
A Didn't count them. No.
Q Okay. Directing your attention to page 580,

please?
A Sure.
Q Toward the bottom, t h e r e , Detective, t h i r d

entry -- ac -- actually f o u r t h entry from t h e
bottom, you s t a t e d to h i m , you helped to tie her
up, though, didnlt you, Brendan, because he
couldn't tie her up alone. There's no way. Did
you help him to tie h e r up? Right?

A That's what I said. Yep.
Q All right. Do you believe that that's a leading

and suggestive question to him?
A I believe that's something that makes sense.
Q Do you believe it to be a l e a d i n g and suggestive
13
question?
A No.
Q Okay. Going over to the next page -- Well,

before we get there, during the course of this
interview, Bsendan told you that, urn, there was a

rope involved i n the r e s t r a i n t ; correct?
A That's true.
Q Okay. And you were present during the course of
a l l t h e p r i o r testimony, and you heard, and I

can't recall his name real quickly, but the truth
of the matter i s t h e r e w a s absolutely no rope
f i b e r s t h a t were recovered that would indi --
that would tend to verify what he t o l d you about
t h e restraint?
A I believe that's correct. There were no fibers

found.
Q And there was no rope?

A There was a lot of rope found on that, uh -- in that
area.
Q In t h e bedroom?
A Urn, t h e r e w a s a l o t of rope t h r o u g h o u t . I don't know
if t h e r e was any in the bedroom, specifically.

There's a lot in the garage.
Q There wasn't any in the -- You have no memory of

any being found in the --
14
A I d o n ' t r e c a l l i f t h e r e was specifically any in the
bedroom or not.
Q Well, given what he told you about that, I
would -- would you expect that you would remember

that? That being a fairly significant, uh, piece
of physical evidence to corroborate something
h e t s told you?
A We took almost a thousand pieces of evidence. No. I

don't recall if there w a s o r n o t .
Q He also told you that he helped in some fashion
removing, urn, t h e metal restraints t h a t he
claimed were used; r i g h t ?
A That's correct.
Q Detective, we've got a number of metal handcuffs;

right?
A Yes, we do.
Q They all have d i f f e r e n t exhibit numbers?

A Y e s , sir.
Q The p i n k ones d i d n ' t have -- t h e y didn't come
from Steve Averyfs place; r i g h t ?
A No. They came from Brendan Dasseyts house.
Q They came o u t of his mother's room?

A They came from where Brendan Dassey --
Q They --
A -- lives.
15
Q -- didn't come f r o m -- Brendan l i v e s w i t h h i s
mother?
A That is correct.
Q Who else lives with his mother?

A Uh, he's got three other b r o t h e r s .
Q Who?
A Bobby, Blaine and B r y a n , is it, I believe, and Barb.
Q All right. So why didn't you j u s t tell us that

they came from Bobby's house?
A They came from the Dassey residence.
Q All right. But they didn't come from Brendan's

room?
A In his room, specifically, no.
Q Okay. In any event, some other ones -- And I'm

n o t attempting to befuddle you or the record, b u t
I d o n ' t recall which e x h i b i t number it was.
T h e r e were -- there was a pair of h a n d c u f f s and
these longer o n e s taken from the Avery place;
right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Brendan claims t o have un -- undone some

of these; r i g h t ?
A That's t r u e .
Q But you know from your involvement in this case
there's no f i n g e r p r i n t s of h i s , no DNA of his on
16
there; r i g h t ?
A N o t surprisingly, no.
Q N o t surprisingly?
A That's correct.
Q You can editorialize when they ask you. Just t r y

to answer mine f o r me, would you please?
A Sure. I'll do the best I can.
Q Isn't it fair to say that you a n d Fassbender

repeatedly, t h r o u g h o u t the course of this in --
this i n t e r v i e w , tried to get Brendan to say that
Teresa had s o c k s on while she was restrained on

t h e bed?
A No, I don1t t h i n k that's true. I don't r e c a l l that.

It might have been mentioned, but I don't think
r e p e a t e d l y that I'm aware of.
Q On the l s t , if you know, how many times d i d

e i t h e r you or Fassbender tell Brendan, a l l right,
Brendan, we're j u s t going to s t a r t a l l over

again? And you, essentially, would have h i m
s t a r t from, what you believed to be t h e

beginning, about when he got home from school?
A T could estimate maybe three to f o u r times, b u t ,

again, I didn't count how many times I said c e r t a i n
things.
Q So if it was more i n the nature of six or seven,
17
you wouldn't debate that, necessarily?
A I wouldn't debate it w i t h you unless I counted.
Q I believe you testified yesterday about some of

the questions that you may have used to test the
veracity or correctness of some of the things
Brendan said; right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And you gave as an example of t h e
statement -- Directing your attention, Officer,
to page 662?
A Yes.
Q At t h e very bottom, that's t h e exchange that was

had between the investigators and Brendan about
the tattoo; right?
A That's correct.
Q And you used that as an example to t h e jury

yesterday that t h a t served a s verification to you
that he was being honest; right?
A That was one of t h e t h i n g s that we use. It's one of
the f a l s e things that we know is false that we put to
him.
Q Okay. On 662, can you read t h e last e n t r y ?
A Okay. We know now t h a t Teresa had a tattoo on her
stomach. Do you remember that?
Q And on 663, his response?
18
A He shakes his head, no. Ugh-ugh.
Q All right. So by that he's indicating that he

doesn't know whether Teresa had a tattoo on her
stomach; right?
A I guess that'd be up to interpretation. That's n o t
how I took it.
Q That's not how you t o o k it?

A He -- L e t me j u s t re-read that real q u i c k . Yeah, I
guess you'd be accurate that he doesn't remember
that. Urn-hmm.
Q Well, and then Fassbender follows up on 663, do

you disagree with me when I say that? Right?
A Right.
Q Brendan's response is, no, b u t I don't know where

it -- where it was. Right?
A Exactly what he says.
Q Okay.
A Yes.
Q So when he's asked, do you disagree with me, he

says, no. Correct?
A Yes.
Q Which would suggest, c e r t a i n l y by h i s response,

that he's n o t t a k i n g issue with what c l a i m is
being presented to him? I . e . , Teresa had a
tattoo. Right?
19
A Are you a s k i n g f o r my interpretation of what he said?
Q Well, isn't t h a t what it meant to you?

A It meant -- If you're a s k i n g what it meant to me,
I'll tell you that.
Q Well, l e t me ask you this: You asked these

questions to get answers f o r purposes of t r y i n g
to determine the t r u t h and veracity of what he's
saying?
Q All right. When you asked these questions, you

have to sit there and decide what does his answer
mean in order to go onto the next question;
right?
Q Am I correct in stating that he d i d n o t disagree

with the assertion t h a t was being p u t forth to
him?
A He's saying he doesn't disagree but he doesn't see a
tattoo. That's e x a c t l y the correct --

(2 That's right.
A -- thing. Yeah.
Q So he is agreeing w i t h t h e assertion, is he n o t ?
A He's saying he doesn't disagree, but he doesn't see a
tattoo is what h e r s s a y i n g .
C1 Wouldn't t h a t suggest to you that he is,
20
therefore, adopting and agreeing with the
assertion?
A No. If he was adopting it, he would have said, yeah,
I remember the tattoo.
Q He told you he had no i d e a where it was; correct?

A Correct.
Q Does t h a t n o t suggest to you that he is adopting

it? That I believe there was one, I j u s t don't
know where it was?
A No, he doesn't say that.
Q All r i g h t . But you have to interpret what he
says, as an investigator, do you not?

A I do exactly what you're doing, yes. We try to
interpret.
Q All right. And that's what a n y human does when

they speak with somebody? They have to interpret
a n d understand answers, don't they?
A Yes.
Q How many times did he change his answer after

either you or Fassbender expressed displeasure by
telling him things? For example, Brendan, come
on. Or, Brendan, you're lying. Or, Brendan, we
know that's n o t t r u e . How many times did he
change during the course of that three-hour --
21
Irrelevance as phrased.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (By A t t o r n e y Edelstein) D i d he ever change his
answer to a n y question that you asked of h i m , or
Fassbender a s k e d of him, when you exples --
expressed displeasure?
A Yes.
Q Happened how many -- Do -- do you know how many

times?
A No.
Q Would you disagree with me that if I suggested it

was more t h a n 20?
A I can't agree or disagree unless I c o u n t .
Q During t h e course of that interview, Brendan told

you that Teresa had been stabbed inside the back
of the Rav 4; correct?

A Yeah, I believe that's correct. Yes.
Q Yet other than the evidence that's already been

testified to r e g a r d i n g , uh, blood smears along
the back or where the expert believed t h e hair
may have been, t h a t you would concede t h a t there
certainly wasn't a n y evidence of blood spatter;
correct?
A I wouldn't expect evidence of blood s p a t t e r .
Q Would you e x p l e c -- expect blood spatter with a
22
stab wound?
A No.
Q It would -- B u t you're n o t an expert on blood
s p a t t e r , are you?
A Not a n expert, no.
Q Okay. During the course of that interview,
Brendan told you that Teresa was moved about
using what's been described a s a creeper; t r u e ?
A True.
Q And you know that, as a result of that statement,
t h e creeper was forensically examined; true?
A That's t r u e .
Q No blood?
A N o t surprising, no.
Q No DNA?
A Again, no.
Q So do you believe him when he says that?

A Absolutely.
Q B u t you have no physical evidence to back it up;
correct?
A N o t true.
Q Tell me what you have by way of t h e creeper?

A We have the creeper, which he s a i d was in the garage.
Q How many times had that boy been in t h e garage
before March 31?
23
A You'd have to ask him that.
Q Did you ask h i m that?

A No.
Q Don't you t h i n k he was familiar with what was in

that garage?
A I don't know.
Q You didnvt a s k h i m , did you?

A No, I didn't.
Q D i d it seem reasonable, given your experience as
a human being, an investigator, that this young
man may have been in that garage before March I ? .
A He may have been. I don't know.
Q I'm going to hand you what's been marked as

E x h i b i t 129. That's the, uh, . 2 2 taken from
Avery's bedroom; r i g h t ?
A Yes, sir.
Q In connection with your occupation, I assume

you've had some firearms t r a i n i n g ?
A I 've had some. Yes.
Q Do you hunt?
A No.
Q Okay. But you do know the d i f f e r e n c e between a

single shot rifle and an automatic or
semi-automatic; right?
A Certainly.
24
Q Okay. Do you know the difference between a
bolt-action rifle, and a single shot, or an
automatic?
A I do.
Q Do you know the difference between a lever-action

r i f l e , and a single s h o t , and a bolt-action, and
a semi-automatic?
A I do. I
Q And what you're h o l d i n g is what type?

A This would be -- I believe that they described it as
a semi-automatic.
Q V e r y good. Urn, now -- And it's -- So it's not a

single shot; right?
A That's correct.
Q Okay. If you would -- I think it's on 650. On

the Ist, when you had this interview -- And it's
about three-quarters of the way down. Bren --

Brendan had previously been asked, urn, what type
of gun it was; right? And he had -- he responded
that it was a single; correct?

A Yes.
Q Okay. And then immediately thereafter Fassbender
says, it was a single shot, not a semi-automatic?
Right?
A Correct.
25
Q Okay. Now, I realize t h a t you d i d n ' t a s k t h a t
particular question -- And answer it i f you can.
But do you know why semi-automatic was contained
in that question, when, in fact, that you knew it

was a semi-automatic that had been recovered, as
opposed to the question being presented to Rim
about a bolt- or a lever-action?
A I didn't a s k t h e question.
a So you don't know t h e answer?
A No.
Q You don't know why he s a i d i t t h a t way?

A You'd have t o a s k h i m .
Q Okay. Is i t f a i r t o s a y that t h e r e really wasn't
any s o r t of follow-up to determine why he
believed it was a single s h o t as opposed to the
semi-automatic, which, in fact, we know was true?
A Why t h e r e was a difference in his answer was your
question?
Q My question is, can you explain to me why t h e r e
was no follow-up on that issue in order to try
to, in fact, get a correct answer because he was

obviously wrong?
A We don't t r y t o g e t correct answers. We t r y to g e t
the t r u t h .
Q Now, going into this interview, you were
26
well-aware o f the forensic f i n d i n g s regarding the
s k u l l pieces and t h e , uh, gunshot wound
entrances ; correct?
A Urn, I was aware of them. Yes.
Q All r i g h t . If you know, how many times was it

suggested or said to Brendan that he shot Teresa?
A Several times. And, a g a i n , it's one of those t h i n g s
he r e s i s t e d each time we asked him. H e resisted.
Q All right. So on some occasions he said, no,

you're wrong, I didn't do t h a t ?
Q Despite the fact that he -- yourself and

Fassbender repeatedly, uh, made statements
suggesting that you knew that he had s h o t h e r ;
correct?
A Yep. That's correct.
Q But you didn't have anything at all to support
t h a t sort of conclusion, did you?
A Conclusion being --
Q That Brendan had shot Teresa?

A No. We asked him t h e question.
Q D i d you ask him the question or -- You -- You
agreed with me j u s t a minute ago that statements
were made t o him, which the statements, in and of
themselves, suggest that, yes, he actually shot
27
Teresa; right?
A Yes. We a s k e d him several times.
Q Okay. Y e t you had absolutely nothing to support
a b e l i e f t h a t he had, in fact, done that?

A Yes, we asked him several times whether or n o t he
shot h e r . Again, he resisted each and every time.
Q You suggested to h i m that h i s DNA would be on the

gun; right?
A Y e s , we did. In which he said there --
Q If you had nothing at a l l to support even a

conclusion or a guess, even a guess, that he may
have shot Teresa, why would you present him with
those t y p e of questions?
A I didn't know whether or n o t h e shot Teresa or n o t at
that time. He puts himself in the bedroom. He puts

himself in the garage where she was killed.
Q You expressed an opinion to him, c e r t a i n l y , that

he did, in fact, do it, did he -- d i d you n o t ?
A I c e r t a i n l y did, y e s .
Q All right. Isn't it t r u e , Detective, that t h e

first person, d u r i n g the course of this exchange
with Brendan on the l s t , who even mentioned her

being shot in the head, was you?
Q All r i g h t . And, initially, he s a i d , yes, he
28
-
believed t h e r e were two shots in the head; right?
A Which fits with t h e evidence that we have. Two shots
in t h e head, that's correct.
Q All right. All right. So if that fits with the

evidence that you have, I guess you would believe
what he tells -- what he said was correct then;
right?
A I believe that t h e r e were two shots in t h e head, y e s .
Q You don't --
A That we know of. I mean, we don't have the whole
s k u l l , unfortunately. Could there have been more?
Certainly.
Q Sure. The f a c t of t h e matter is that a f t e r you

go back and f o r t h with this, he changes it
several times, doesn't he, as far as t h e number?

A When we get to t h e torso and things, yes.
Q Okay. I think t h e number runs all the w a y up to

10 or ll?
A That is true.
Q Exhibit 128. It's a little box. I t g s got t h e --

the shells casings -- - 2 2 shell c a s i n g s , CCI
manufacturer, from t h e garage; right?
A Thatfs t r u e . Yes.
Q You're t h e lead investigator; right?

A Yes. O n e of the --
29
Q Okay. You never asked anybody at t h e lab to
examine these for DNA evidence; true or false?
A That's t r u e . Lot of reasons for it.
Q Y o u ' l l get y o u r chance.
A I ' m s u r e I will.
Q You never asked anybody at t h e lab to examine

them for fingerprint evidence?
A P r e t t y difficult to g e t fingerprint evidence o f f of
that.
Q You're not a fingerprint expert, are you?

A I didn't say I was. No.
Q These -- These are p r e t t y smooth surfaces, a r e n ' t

they?
A Pretty small smooth surfaces.
Q I n order to load this gun, somebody has to t o u c h

those shells at some p o i n t , don't they?
A Probably n o t b i g enough to get a whole fingerprint
on.
Q You're n o t a f i n g e r p r i n t expert, are you?

A No.
Q You've seen -- you have been involved in cases,

have you not, where experts have testified and
you relied on evidence utilizing portions of
fingerprints; correct?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Your Honor, I ' m going
30
o b j e c t to the continued line of inquiry of the,
uh, investigator. S a i d he wasn't a fingerprint
analyst.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: He's o f f e r i n g
opinions about --
THE COURT: I -- 1'11 overrule t h e

objection.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) You know what a partial

print is, don't you?
A I do.
Q And do you know investigators oftentimes rely on
that; right?
A No, I don1t know that.
Q Urn, directing your attention to page 582, please?

A Sure.
Q I'm sorry, 5 8 7 ?
A Okay.
Q A11 right. That's -- Is -- is that fair to say

that that's about t h e time d u r i n g t h e course of
this interview that the issue comes up as far a s
Teresa's head? It hadn't really come up much
before that? Fair statement?

A It comes up h e r e .
Q Okay. Urn, and Fassbender s t a t e s about halfway
down, it's extremely, extremely important you
31
tell us this for us to believe you. Do you see
that?
A True.
Q Okay. And immediately thereafter you say, come

on Brendan, what else? Right?
A Very true.
Q Okay. Urn, flip over, if you would, to 5 8 9 ?

A Okay.
Q S i x lines down, when he's a s k e d how many times
Steve shot Teresa, what's his answer?
A He says, twice, b u t I don't know if he's r e f e r r i n g to

t h e head or what, b u t he does say twice.
Q Well, you didn't a s k him what was being referred

to, d i d you?
A Well, h e r s just t a l k e d about t h e head p r i o r to t h a t .
So you asked me before to i n t e r p r e t and that would be

my interpretation, but ...
Q Well, Detective, I h a t e to quibble, but I don't
t h i n k it takes a lot of interpretation. Look at
t h e very f i r s t question on that page. You asked

him, where did you shoot her? Right?
A Where did you shoot her? Right.
Q Yes.
Answer: In the head.
A That ' s correct.
32
Q Who shot her? What did he say?
A He did.
Q T a l k i n g about Steve; right? Right?
A I would assume. Yes.
Q Well, who else were you l o o k i n g at?

A He said, he did. Yes, I assume h e r s t a l k i n g about
Steve.
Q Urn, l i t t l e f u r t h e r down is it i n d i c a t e d anywhere

else upon the person of Teresa where she may have
been shot?
I
A Yes. He's asked, do you shoot h e r elsewhere?
Q Now, when you use the term "you" there's no way

to know from this transcript or, quite f r a n k l y ,
from t h e video, who you're talking about? Are

you talking about he and Steve collectively? Are
you t a l k i n g about him i n d i v i d u a l l , y ? Would you
agree with me that there's no way to discern to
whom you reference that question?
A Fassbender asked, do you shoot her elsewhere? His
answer: In the stomach.
Q Fassbender then asks a little further down, how

many times do you shoot her when he handed you
the gun? Right?
A Yep.
Q You have n o t h i n g to support t h a t suggestion, do
33
you?
A We c e r t a i n l y did. And the answer is zero. Which he

continues to resist that. You're correct.
Q Well, when you say "resist" are you saying that

he is l y i n g ?
A No, I didn't say that.
Q But do you agree that prior to t h a t question

being asked, you hadn't absolutely nothing to
suggest that t h e r e was a n y t r u t h to this
statement that, when he handed you the gun?
A Not sure I understand your question.
Q When you did t h e interview on the 1st --

A Yes.
Q -- you had nothing to support t h e statement

submitted to Brendan when he, making reference to
Steve, handed you the gun. Is that true or
false?
A That's true.
Q All r i g h t . But, nevertheless, that was presented
to him as if it were a fact; correct?
A A b s o l u t e l y it was.
Q All r i g h t . If you would flip over to page 591?

A Okay.
Q The last entry on the page, Detective, would you

read that question?
34
H o w many times d i d you shoot h e r ? Tell me again how
many times did you shoot h e r ?
And you asked that q u e s t i o n ; r i g h t ?
Yes.
And the answer?
He says, three. Which is n o t surprising.

And your next question on 592?
And where -- where d i d he shoot her?
T a l k i n g a g a i n about Steve; right?
Yes.
Okay. His answer: In the head, stomach, and
heart.
That's exactly what he said.
You then asked him, what side of t h e head;
correct?
Yep.
And he t o l d you he had no idea. What he said

was, no.
That ' s correct.

Okay. H o w , if at all, do you account f o r --
Well, j u s t l e t me put it this way: So when this
questioning continues about where the shots may
have occurred, it changes, does it not?
It does.
And you knew t h a t , from the forensics, there were
t w o pieces of skull, two holes; correct?
A True.
Q All right. And I have to f i n d my r i g h t page
here. During t h e course of this exchange, you
had asked about some hooks or wires in the
garage; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q Urn, were those ever forensically examined?

A Urn, t h e y were looked a t by our evidence techs.
Q And they found absolutely n o t h i n g of any
significance; correct?
A True.
Q If you know, how many times during the course of

the c o n t a c t you had w i t h Brendan on t h e 1st did
you personally a s k him, or suggest to him, or
t e l l him that Steve made him do something?
A I can't -- Excuse me. 1 didn't go through and count
how many times I made any statement. I don't know.
Q Would you agree that it was multiple?

A I'll agree it was more than one time.
Q Would you agree i t ' s more t h a n t e n ?

A No, I wouldn't agree with that unless I counted it.
Q All r i g h t . If you would, go to page 571, p l e a s e ?

A Sure. Okay.
Q About i n the middle of t h e page, l i t t l e -- little
36
past t h a t , and this is when you're talking about
whether or n o t Brendan engaged in a n y sort of
sexual activity with Teresa. Is that a f a i r

statement?
A Yeah, it l o o k s l i k e it. Yes.
Q A11 right. You make t h e statement to h i m , and

this is a little past halfway down, okay, what
happens next? Remember, we already know, b u t we
need to hear it from you. You see that?

A I do.
Q And that's what you told h i m ; r i g h t ?

A That's true.
Q And in literally the same breath you said, it's
n o t your f a u l t . Right?
A You a r e right. Yes.
Q How many times d i d you tell him things like, it's

not your fault?
A Quite a f e w . I haven't counted them, but ...
Q How about --
A Many.
Q -- page -- G o to page 574, please. Again, about

halfway down?
A Yes.
Q You s a i d to him, it's not your fault. He makes

you do it. Right?
37
A Yes.
Q And I take it you don't believe, as a trained

investigator, dealing with Brendan Dassey, that
phrasing things to him that way, where you
suggest t h a t if he d i d something, it's n o t h i s
fault, is going to cause him to say he did,
because you are telling him that it's okay and
it's n o t his f a u l t ?
A No. I don't believe that at all.
Q All right.
A Clearly you saw on t h e tape what he said.
Q Everybody saw what he says.

A That's correct.
Q But you would have to give me this, Detective,

that it's not just the sterile words that people
speak, but it's the meaning behind them; correct?
A Correct.
Q It's the intonation; correct?

A Correct.
Q It's t h e reaction between individuals; correct?

A Absolutely.
Q How many times during the course of this contact
d i d you praise him?
A Again, I haven't counted anything I've said i n the
interview. I don't know how many times I s a i d
38
a n y t h i n g in that interview.
Q Is it fair to say t h a t it o c c u r r e d on multiple

occasions? It occurred more than once?
A I'll agree with you.
Q B u t you don't know how many times?

A No, I don't.
Q Okay. Urn, if you would, go to page 595?

A F i v e n i n e t y - f ive?
Q Yes.
A Okay.
Q You see about three quarters of t h e way down?

The statement is made to him -- this is by
Fassbender -- I t h i n k you're doing a real good
job up to this point. Right?
A Yep.
Q Okay. And he goes on to say some o t h e r things;

correct?
A Yeah, it's a pretty lengthy paragraph.
Q Okay. A little further down, he -- when we're

t a l k i n g about the garage, he claims to have
knowledge about some things happening in the
garage; right?
A Yes.
Q And he prefaces his request for Brendan to t e l l
the t r u t h by the following words: You need to
39
--
tell us about this so we know you're telling the

truth. Right?
A Yes.
Q And in fairness, he said, I'm n o t g o i n g to tell

you what to say. You need to tell us. Right?
A You re correct.
Q And you knew that this was being recorded, didn't
you?
A Absolutely. So did he.
Q So if you wanted to g e t something on this v i d e o ,
you knew a l l you had to do was say it; right?
A It's n o t h i n g to do w i t h the video.
Q D i d you -- you knew it's being recorded?
A So did Brendan.
Q Okay. 1'11 grant you that. T h i n k you're a
little more sophisticated and intelligent than

Brendan?
A I would hope so.
Q Do you think so? Not what you hope.

A I think so. Yeah, I t h i n k so.
Q So is Fassbender; isn't he?

A I think so.
Q In f a c t , he's been at this lot long -- about

twice as long as you have, hasn't he?
A That's correct. Yes.
40
Q J u s t as the number of gunshots that you discussed
with Brendan changed t h r o u g h o u t t h e course of
this contact, is it -- it is correct, is it n o t ,
that t h e times changed when talking about events,
particularly when he gets h o m e , when h e goes over

by Steve; right?
A Yes. N o t surprisingly, they do.
Q Isn't it true, Detective, during t h e course of

your contact on t h e lst, t h a t Brendan's told you
flat o u t he was guessing at some of the questions
that were asked of h i m ?
A You'd have to be more s p e c i f i c . I don't know. I'm
sure R e m a y have s a i d that once or twice, b u t . . .
Q For example, the knife. If you to page 645?

A Sure. Okay.
Q You asked him, now, quarter of t h e way down, what

about the k n i f e ? Where is t h e k n i f e ? B e honest
w i t h me. Where's the knife? Right?

A Yes.
Q Okay. His answer: Probably in the drawer.
A That's what he says.
Q Okay. A n d you asked, which drawer? Right?

A Right.
Q If you would, j u s t k i n d of read yourself t h e rest

of that on that page.
41
ATTORNEY FALLON: I ' m sorry, Counsel,
what page was t h a t a g a i n ?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Five -- I'm s o r r y .
Six forty-five.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm ready.
Q (By Attorney E d e l s t e i n ) Is it fair to say that

even you concluded that he has no idea what
happened to this knife?
A That -- That's true, because h e says, I t h i n k it i s .
I n d i c a t i n g h e r s r e a l l y n o t sure where it went.
Q So the i n s e r t i o n of t h e simple word "think"
indicates to you that that, in and of i t s e l f , is
not a complete affirmation of what's being said?
Do I understand you c o r r e c t l y ?
A I'm s a y i n g i s that he says, I t h i n k -- that's where I

t h i n k it i s . And I t a k e t h a t t o mean h e ' s n o t r e a l l y
s u r e where it might be.
Q So when he told you, f o r example, that he t h o u g h t

it was t w o shots, t h r e e shots, t e n shots, are
you -- are you t h e n a d o p t i n g t h e same
interpretation t h a t you're not even c e r t a i n that
he has any certainty to t h a t -- t h a t answer?
A I ' m thinking he knows she was s h o t , but he probably
doesn't recall the exact number of times. That's the
42
way I took it. Which i s n o t s u r p r i s i n g .
Q When Brendan s a i d t h i n g s t h a t you did not believe

to be true, is it fair to say t h a t you attempted
him to correct his response?
A Yes, and several t i m e s he would r e s i s t that.
Q Well, when you say " r e s i s t " , youtre certainly not

telling t h i s j u r y that t h e mere f a c t that he did
not change a n answer, that you have any
independent method to prove t h a t h i s answer w a s
false?
A It shows t h a t h e ' s n o t very suggestible to answers.

That he answers what he knows. That's what it shows.
Q NOW, you're n o t an ex -- an e x p e r t on
suggestibility by a n y means, a r e you?
A You a r e correct. I'm n o t .
Q All right. B u t you conceded earlier t h a t he did
change his answers many times?
A Yes, he did.
Q B u t when you s a y h e resists -- Let -- Let's go

back to t h e hair.
A Urn-hmm.
Q I guess you would conclude that he, uh -- he --

he clearly told you that he cut the hair; right?
A True.
Q You asked h i m where the h a i r went?
43
A True.
Q Okay. Supposedly on what he described a s the

counter. Later determined to be the nightstand
or something in Steve's room; right?
A No. 1 believe what he said is on the dresser.
Q He told you a counter. You asked him. Then he

clarified that it was the dresser; correct?
A I recall him saying dresser. If he said counter
first, I'll go along with t h a t .
Q Whatever. We're talking about the back bedroom?
A That is correct.
Q He told you that; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q You had nothing to sh -- You found no hairs of

Teresa in t h e t r a i l e r ; true or false?
A We don't know. So I ' d have to --

Q Well --
A -- say f a l s e .
Q -- what do you mean you don't know? You're the

lead investigator. My question is this simple,
did you find any hairs of Teresa Halbach in t h e
trailer of Steven Avery?

A We don't know.
Q You looked, didn't you?

A We recovered a lot of h a i r .
44
Q Well, did you not a s k anybody to check it to see
whose it was?
A It's n o t that simple.
Q You're n o t a n expert on hair comparison, are you?

A You're right, I'm n o t .
Q You had -- At any given time, what was the

maximum number of people out there on t h e Avery
p r o p e r t y h e l p i n g you w i t h this case?
A Any given time it could range from 15 to over a
hundred.
Q And n o t only that, you have the resources of t h e
State Crime L a b ; right?
A Yes, we did.
Q You had troopers out there helping you?

A Helping u s search. That i s correct.
Q You had volunteers?

A We had volunteer firefighters helping us go through
t h e salvage yard.
Q With all of these resources, there some reason

t h a t you d i d n o t -- L e t m e make sure I'm clear.
Did you ever ask anybody i n v o l v e d in t h e forensic
world to compare hairs found at Steven Avery's
t r a i l e r with known samples from Teresa?

A There were general discussions revolving --
Q D i d you or didn't you? That's a simple question.
45
Yes or no?
A There were --
Q I'm just a s k i n g you the same way you asked
Brendan many times. Yes o r no?
A There were general discussions. Yes.
Q Did you ask -- So is the answer, yes? D i d you
ask somebody to do a comparison?
A We had general discussions about hair. Specific --

D i d I ask somebody, specifically, to do a comparison?
No.
Q And you agree that you could have done that,
c o u l d n ' t you?
A No, I don't.
Q All right. You were lead investigator? Co-lead

investigator; right?
A Yes, sir.
Q What stopped you from asking e i t h e r the Wisconsin
S t a t e Crime Lab or a n o t h e r lab from doing a h a i r
comparison?
A Well, if you'd l i k e me, I'll explain the whole thing
about hair, if that's what you'd l i k e .
Q I don't w a n t to know your spin on t h e value of

doing the comparisons. I just want to know why
you didn't a s k somebody to do it?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Well, then, he's --
46
t h e n h e ' s now e n t i t l e d t o a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n .
THE COURT: I -- I t h i n k he is, Counsel. 1
think -- I t h i n k -- You -- you may characterize it,
editorially, a s a s p i n , but you've asked h i m , so go

ahead and answer it.
Q (By Attorney Edelstein) Why didn't you do it?

A Thank you. H a i r evidence -- First of all, we took a
carpet cleaner, which you've all seen. There's a
vacuum cleaner that was taken as well. Okay? There
is probably thousands and thousands and thousands of
h a i r s b o t h in there and in t h e vacuum cleaner.
Number o n e .
Number t w o , we had to p r i o r i t i z e things
on this case. It was a huge case. One of t h e
biggest s u b m i s s i o n s of evidence e v e r done t o t h e
Wisconsin State Crime Lab.

Had we had somebody l o o k t h r o u g h every
piece of hair t h a t w e found, t h e y ' d still be
doing it today, and probably s t i l l be d o i n g it
two years from now. The Crime L a b i s -- has only
so many people, which you a l l know, which you've

all seen.
We took the e v i d e n c e that we thought
best would solve this crime and b r i n g the
47
murderer of Teresa Halbach to j u s t i c e , and that's
what w e did.
Could w e have spent t w o , three, f o u r
years going t h r o u g h every hair? Absolutely. Is

it feasible? It's not feasible.
And if he's going to talk to me about
DNA, which he's probably going to, on hair,

almost impossible unless you have a root. He
never cut any of the -- He never pulled the hair
out. He said he c u t it. Thus, there's no root
there.
So there's a lot of reasons we didn't do
h a i r analysis. N o t to m e n t i o n t h e Crime Lab does
very limited hair analysis anymore to begin w i t h .
DNA? Absolutely, if you have t h e root.
Even if you have the root of that hair, and it
went through that cleaner, you have to have skin
follicles on that root. The odds of having skin

follicles on the root of that h a i r when it goes
through a c l e a n e r l i k e that are probably slim to
none. Could we have done it in t h e next couple

years? Certainly. That's t h e reason.
Q So as a matter of -- of prioritizing things?

A One of the reasons.
a Could have been done. You j u s t chose not to;
48
correct?
A I' 11 go w i t h you. Sure.
Q All right. Okay. Detective, l e t me ask you

t h i s , uh, going back to the interview again.
Initially, I believe, Brendan said t h a t h e s a w
T e r e s a up on t h e porch talking with Steve; right?
A True.
Q Okay. And then at some point in time he was

confronted, urn, and Fassbender -- and, I ' m sorry,
I can't find a page -- b u t if you have an
independent memory -- Maybe do it this way. Urn,
Fassbender told him that, quote, you couldn't
have s e e n Teresa on the porch.' Right?
A Very true.
Q Okay. And then Brendan agreed with that, and

said, no, I didn't. Right?
A C o r r e c t , because Brendan didn't see her there.
Q And that's another example of times that he

changed based upon e i t h e r a l e a d i n g q u e s t i o n o r a
negative response from one of you guys; right?

A Because Brendan knew he was c a u g h t in a lie.
Exactly.
Q Well, you don't know what Brendan knew, did you?

You -- Come on.
A Brendan knew it wasn't true. She wasn't there on the
49
porch at that time. We know that.
Q You have the ability to s i t here and p u r p o r t to

tell this jury t h a t you have the ability to know
what he knows?
A I know Teresa wasn't there on t h e porch at that time.
So he couldn't have seen her.
Q You're not a mind reader, a r e you?

A She wasn't on t h e porch.
Q A r e you a mind reader? Do you have that ability?

A I'm not a mind reader.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: That's all.

THE COURT: Redirect?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Thank you.
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q Let's start with, urn, guns. Were any bolt-action

or lever-action .22 caliber weapons seized from
Steven Avery's trailer?
A No.
Q All right. During your questioning of t h e

d e f e n d a n t , did it appear to you that he had
sufficient -- Or no. Did it appear to you that
he really knew much about guns?

A No. Matter of fact, he had t a l k e d about being a f r a i d
to shoot a cat, or watch somebody shoot a cat, for
50
fear he had hardly any knowledge of guns.
Q A l l right. Now, Counsel asked you -- I'm going

t o s w i t c h , now, t o the SUV and t h i s blood s p a t t e r
question. You were asked a question on

cross-examination a b o u t wouldn't you expect blood
spatter in the SUV if a stabbing, f o r i n s t a n c e ,
had occurred t h e r e , and you said you would not.
T e l l u s why?
A That's correct. When somebody's stabbed, there isn't
this great amount of blood t h a t goes flying out of a
s t a b wound. Anybody that's in t h e medical field h a s
knowledge of that.
Um, when you talk about blood spatter,
it usually comes from something higher velocity.
Stabbing a knife i n t o somebody i s n ' t g o i n g t o
cause a l l this blood t o go a n y w h e r e . When you
s t a b somebody in t h e area, from my limited
medical knowledge -- Where is it he says he
stabbed her? It's in t h e c a v i t y . Even, free
bleeding. It's going to bleed into that cavity.
It's pretty simple. There isn't going to be t h i s
big blood spatter. It's not going to happen.
Q All right. So there's a difference between

spatter and pooling of blood, f o r instance?
A Yes, s i r .
51
Q All right. And j u s t so that we're clear, we
didn't see a n y pooling in the center of that
cargo area upon f o r e n s i c e x a m i n a t i o n ?
A No, I w o u l d n ' t expect i t t o .
Q All right. Now, did you l e a r n t h a t there were

t h e pos -- that -- t h a t it was a t least two
g u n s h o t wounds t o the head at the same time? Did
you l e a r n about b o t h g u n s h o t f i n d i n g s a t t h e same
time?
A No. Actually, urn, we had l e a r n e d about the f i r s t
gunshot wound, I believe it was a r o u n d November --
Correction. Let me -- Let me go back. I believe it
was around, um, February 27. We learned much later
than that, and I believe it was a f t e r this interview,

about the second g u n s h o t wound t h a t t h e y f o u n d . So,
no, w e d i d n o t know there were two suspected e n t r a n c e
wounds.
Q At least two?
A Two that we know o f . Again, w e d o n ' t have all of the
skull.
Q Okay. Urn, I j u s t have a couple of f i n a l

questions. The d e f e n d a n t was a t , urn, the
Sheriff's Department for quite a while. But i n
t e r m s of the a c t u a l interview of t h e d e f e n d a n t ,
how much interview time are we talking about
52
f
here?
A T w o hours and I believe it's 5 3 minutes, outside of
breaks when we got h i m water, when w e g o t h i m sodas,
when we got him a sandwich, when we offered him to go

to the bathroom. Outside of those breaks, there was
about two hours -- j u s t u n d e r three hours.
Q Of questioning?
A Of questioning.
Q All right.
A Yes.
Q Now, urn, yesterday, uh, when we ended, Counsel

asked you about t h e absence of DNA and
fingerprints that connect the defendant to the
crime. Do you r e c a l l that?
A I do.
Q All right. Mow, although there is no DNA profile
of the defendant, or his fingerprints, is there
scientific evidence that c o n n e c t s him to this

crime in your opinion?
A Absolutely.
Q Let's take that in two parts. After receiving

the statement that we witnessed yesterday, what
did you do?
A After receiving the statement, which you guys all saw
yesterday, on March 1, we applied and obtained a
53
search warrant, which was signed by a judge. We
entered that garage, did a full search of that
garage.
As you already know, we found two bullet
fragments in t h a t garage. N u m b e r one bullet
fragment that came -- that w e found u n d e r n e a t h
that a i r compressor, which you a l l saw, we
retrieved, we s e n t it to the lab, and we found
Teresa Halbach's DNA on that bullet that we
discovered after Mr. Dassey told us she was shot
in the garage.
That very bullet was analyzed by the

weapons specialist, which you heard talk here.
That bullet came from the - 2 2 hanging in Steve
Avery's bedroom, which Brendan told us. Brendan

I
told us where we'd find that .22 and that's where
we found it. To t h e exclusion of all other guns,
that's where t h a t bullet came from. That's
information that Mr. Dassey told us during this
interview t h a t we d i d n o t know.
Q All right. And while you w e r e interviewing him,
did you have a -- a fair command of the forensic
evidence that you knew and that existed prior to

this statement?
A Yes, s i r .
54
Q All right. And i n terms of the evidence t h a t was
known to you at the time of the interview, what
s c i e n t i f i c evidence d i d you -- do you believe

corroborates many of the details he provided?
Just to --
A There's a l o t of i t . I -- I'll -- I'll give you a
few examples. T h e bleach, f o r example, corroborates
what he says about cleaning up in the garage. We
f i n d t h e bleach bottle where he says we'd find the
bleach bottle. The bleach bottle's empty.
The rake and the shovel, which he says
they took out of t h e garage to help tend the
fire. Where did we find t h e rake a n d shovel?
Out by the f i r e .
His p a n t s . He's t h e one who t e l l s us
t h a t there's bleach stains on the pants from
cleaning up blood in the garage. He turns over
t h e pants. You saw f o r yourself what's on t h e
pants.
He indicated t h a t there w e r e re --
restraints used. He's the one who t o l d us they
were handcuffs. We find handcuffs.
He tells us they put Teresa, after they
kill her, in the back of h e r own vehicle. We
find Teresa's DNA, blood, in t h e back of that
55
vehicle.
He tells us that Steve's got a c u t on

his finger. We find Steve's blood in Teresa's
truck. J u s t a f e w examples.
Q Thank you.
ATTORNEY FALLON: No f u r t h e r questions.
THE COURT: Uh, any recross on these --
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Yes.
THE COURT: -- points?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIM: Please, Your Honor.

Briefly.
RECROSS-EXRMINATfON
Q So if Steven Avery had told Brendan Dassey, when

Brendan got over there, I shot Teresa in t h e
garage. You need to help me clean it up. That's
just -- that's -- that's c e r t a i n l y a possibility,
isn't it?
A Are you s a y i n g that's all he told him?
Q No. I'm j u s t asking you. You -- you said that

in order to scientifically connect the defendant,
you pointed to the bullet fragment w i t h Teresa's
DNA; r i g h t ?
Q I'm not going to argue with you. We know it has
56
h e r DNA --
A Yes.
Q -- right? And that came from the gun; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q You don't know how many times he was in that

garage before he -- before t h e -- t h e , uh, 31st,
do you?
A How many times Brendan was in the garage?
Q Right.
A No, I don't.
Q You d o n ' t know how many t i m e s he sat around
w a t c h i n g Steve b u r n t h i n g s i n t h a t p i t , do you?
A No.
Q You don't know if he ever saw that rake a n d

s h o v e l that's been paraded around u p here b e f o r e
the 31st, do you?
A No. He said he got them out of the garage.
Q So he could have had preexisting knowledge of the

rake and the shovel; right?
A Sure. He could have.
Q He could have had preexisting knowledge about

that gun hanging up there in t h a t bedroom,
couldn't he?
A Ilm assuming he could have.
Q All right. This all occurred Nov -- October 31;
57
right?
A Yes.
Q And h e s a i d t h a t h e t o l d you t h a t h e h e l p e d Steve
c l e a n up this mess; right? In the garage?
A He said he helped do a lot of things. One of the
things was help --

Q Listen --
A -- clean up t h e garage. Yes.
Q Okay. A n d he talked about using bleach; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q So the fact t h a t there's a bleach bottle that is

discovered some four months later in Steve's
trailer, you're telling this jury is scientific
evidence t o corroborate what he s a i d ?

A I'm telling you to p u t it all together, along with
the gas cap --
Q Let them p u t it together.
A Absolutely.
Q Do you -- you j u s t answer my question?

A Yes, I am.
Q That bleach bottle wasn't scientifically analyzed

to determine whether it had Brendan's DNA on it,
was it?
A No.
Q It wasn't scientifically analyzed to determine
58
whether i t had h i s fingerprints on it, was it?
A Wouldn't expect it to.
Q You don't know how long that thing had been

sitting there, do you?
A I don't.
Q You told Mr. Fallon you had a pretty f a i r command

of t h e , uh, forensic evidence, uh, by the time
you conducted t h e interview; right?
A I knew the majority of it.
Q All r i g h t . Urn, when, um, d i d you -- Well, let me
ask you this way. Did -- did I understand you to
say that it was February 27 was the first time
that you had a n y knowledge about a gunshot wound
being an issue in this case?

A I can tell you that there was a r e p o r t w r i t t e n by
somebody at the Crime Lab on t h e 27th about a
suspected gunshot wound, and we received it on t h e
28th. Urn, there may have been conversations with,
urn, for example, Leslie Eisenberg, who you saw
t e s t i f y about the skull pieces, earlier than t h a t . I
didn't --
Q Excuse me. What -- what was t h a t about earlier
than the 27th from Eisenberg?
A I s a i d there may have been discussions that she may
have found one piece of s k u l l earlier than that.
59
Q L e t me a s k you this.
A B u t I donvt know.
Q Well, do you have a recollection of being t o l d as

e a r l y as November 15 of ' 0 5 from your lead co-
investigator, Agent Fassbender, that he got
information from Eisenberg that there was clear
evidence of a gunshot wound?
A Do I have an independent recollection of that? No.
But I believe that would be true that --
Q All right.
A I don't know that she could say it was a c l e a r wound
at that time. She had a sus -- suspect that there
was one at that time.
Q Yeah.
A That's probably true.
Q All right. So it c e r t a i n l y wasn't a revelation,

uh, from Brendan that t h e r e was an issue of a
g u n s h o t wound; correct?
A One gunshot wound.
Q You already knew this going into this interview?
A One gunshot wound. Yes, I said t h a t . Yes.
Q You also indicated in response to Counsel's

question a b o u t corroborating what he said to you
from a scientific standpoint that he told you
Steven had a cut f i n g e r and you found some blood;
60
right?
A True.
Q If he was over there tending the fire and he saw

Steve had a cut f i n g e r , does t h a t surprise you?
A He even said Steve went in and g o t a bandaid to p u t
on it when he was --
Q So what? If he sees a cut finger and he says he

got a bandaid, how is that scientific?
A It's knowledge that he would have known and --
Q It's not --
A -- puts him -- again puts him t h e r e .
a Okay. Thatfs a l l .
THE COURT: All right. You may s t e p down.
THE COURT: Uh, any exhibits?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, we
haven't moved that, uh, exhibit that the witness

has.
THE COURT: The t r a n s c r i p t , 216, I think?
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Right. Yes, 216.

ATTORNEY FALLON: No o b j e c t i o n to that.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . That's received.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I t h i n k with the same
conditions we've t a l k e d about.
61
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Right. For -- for
purposes of t h e record.
THE COURT: Right. Any f u r t h e r witness --

I'm s o r r y .
THE CLERK: Two-fifteen hasn't been

received y e t .
THE COURT: And 215 is?
THE CLERK: Report and transcript of the
2/27 i n t e r v i e w .
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Same motion for t h e
same purpose.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, that one I may
want to think about. B u t l e t me j u s t begin by
s a y i n g f o r the purposes of which it was
specifically identified and t h e specific
questions referenced, I have no o b j e c t i o n . But
f o r any o t h e r purpose -- So, in other words, for
those limited purposes, I have no o b j e c t i o n .
THE COURT: All right. It's received --

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN : All' r i g h t .
THE COURT: -- for those limited --
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: And I'm g o i n g to --

THE COURT: -- purposes.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, j u s t so
that we have cleanup, I t h i n k No. 214, which was
62
the --
THE COURT: Miranda rights form?
THE CLERK: That was received.

THE COURT: That was received.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Very good. Thank
you.

ATTORNEY FALLON: Urn, Madam Clerk, are
there any other exhibits unaccounted for at this

time that we need to address?
THE CLERK: No.
THE COURT: Well, any f u r t h e r witnesses
from the State?
ATTORNEY FALLON: The State at this time

would o f f e r to t h e C o u r t no f u r t h e r witnesses.
We would rest our case and reserve o u r right to
r e b u t argue -- or, rather, evidence presented by
the defense.
THE COURT: All right. Is t h e defense
prepared to proceed?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge, we should,
uh -- We do have issues to deal w i t h prior to
proceeding.
THE COURT: All right. We'll deal w i t h
those issues. 1'11 excuse the jury.

ATTORNEY FALLON: Pretty close to the
morning breaktime anyways.
THE COURT: It is.

( J u r y out at 9:58 a.m.)
THE COURT: All right. Be seated. You

have a motion, Mr. Fremgen?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge, yes. Be£ ore
w e s t a r t o u r p o r t i o n of t h e t r i a l , we would
move -- and I believe it's Count 2, t h e , uh,
s e x u a l assault o f f e n s e -- w e would move that the
Court consider at t h i s time, uh, dismissal of
that count. The evidence thus far that's been
introduced this past week, in our opinion, does
not independently support the f i r s t degree sexual
assault charge as t o any element of t h a t offense
absent the confession of t h e defendant.
Now, it supports -- general rule is
that, uh, one may not be convicted solely upon
t h e i r uncorroborated c o n f e s s i o n . But I -- I can

cite cases, Triplett v. State, is t h e one that I
have, 65 Wis. 2d 371, I believe H a l t v . State is

17 Wis. 2d 468, more of t h e , uh -- t h e primary
case i n Wisconsin in regards to corroborated
confessions.
B u t in that regard, I believe it was in
64
State P. Verhasselt, 83 Wis. 2d 647, Wisconsin
Supreme Court case. Supreme Court stated that,
quote, as to the need fox corroborating evidence,
all of the c r i -- elements of the crime do not
have to be proved independently of an accused's

confession. Essentially, it's enough that,
quote, some corroboration, unquote, of that
confession be necessary in order to sustain a
conviction. That's the Supreme C o u r t in
.
V e ~ h a s s etl
In this case, there are three crimes.
There are three distinct and separate offenses.
Each h a s distinct and separate elements of the
offenses. Now, certainly, we -- not taking issue
that there has been independent evidence that
supports at least an element of the other two
offenses, intentional -- first degree intentional
homicide and mutilation of a corpse.

In this case, there's been no
independent evidence to support the confession by
t h e defendant that first degree intentional -- or
excuse me -- first degree sexual a s s a u l t
occurred. There ' s no independent evidence
outside t h e statement -- the videotaped statement
provided yesterday to t h e Court. No scientific
65
evidence t h a t t i e s t h e d e f e n d a n t t o any s e x u a l
assault, no p h y s i c a l evidence t h a t e v e n suggests
t h a t a sexual a s s a u l t occurred.
Nothing connects this d e f e n d a n t with
Teresa Halbach in regards to any i n d i c a t i o n of a
sex crime. For example, no DNA of Teresa Halbach
on the leg irons or handcuffs. Items that might

be indicative of a sex crime.
No indication of bodily f l u i d s
indicative of a sex crime such as semen. Nothing
on -- o n any bedding, on any carpeting. No body
f l u i d s at a11 suggestive of a s e x u a l assault.
So we'd a s k that the Court dismiss that
c o u n t i n regards t o the uncorroborated --
uncorroborated detail of any element of that
crime .
THE COURT: Response?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. This
m o t i o n i s brought, uh, n o t s u r p r i s i n g l y , a t t h e ,
uh, conclusion of the State's case where the
standard the C o u r t is to apply, uh, is whether a
view of the evidence in the light m o s t favorable

t o t h e State c o u l d sustain a conviction.
Mr., uh, Fremgen's argument, I believe,

is misplaced, uh, especially given t h e , uh,
66
-
postmortem, urn, mutilation of the evidence and
the destruction, uh, of what we might expect to

find as, uh, other corroborative, uh, physical
evidence.
In this case, uh, the fact that the
body, uh, is, uh, totally consumed by fire, the
fact that the bedding and the clothes, which may
have at one point contained DNA, a r e , by the
defendant's own, uh, instrumentality, burned, uh,
do not, uh, aver to the, uh, benefit of the,
uh -- of the defendant, himself.

Uh, the term t'corroboration't, Your
Honor, uh, requires or suggests this Court, uh,
include and consider all of the evidence, uh,
that has been, uh, presented. There is c e r t a i n l y
c o r r o b o r a t i o n as to, uh, restraints, as to, uh,
weaponry, and a s to o t h e r , urn, items that have
been seized when viewed in light, uh, most
favorable, uh, to t h e State, uh, would, in f a c t ,
uh, be, uh, considered, or can be considered,

corroborative.
B u t t h e bottom line, and t h e underlying
principle, is, uh, when viewed in light most
favorable to the State, uh, whether or not the,
uh, jury could, in fact, convict, we certainly
67
have met that burden. We ask that the
defendant's, uh, motion be dismissed. Or, excuse
me, denied at this time.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN : J u s t one quick
response, Judge. The -- the case that I c i t e d ,
and I think i t f s c i t e d numerous times and -- and
without -- well, somewhat ad nauseam in the case

law, says the elements of the crime, not any
element of any crime. I t h i n k if the Supreme
C o u r t wanted to say any element of any crime
charged, t h e y would have done t h a t .
So i n t h i s case, there isn't any
evidence suggestive of any sexual assault. And
despite the fact that there might be evidence
that t h e S t a t e suggests had been destroyed, once
a g a i n , that comes from t h e confession of t h e
defendant. There's n o t h i n g to corroborate t h a t
there was bedding in -- in -- in t h e f i r e , no
' evidence has been suggested that they found
remnants of bedding in the f i r e .
So, once again, our -- I understand the
State's position, b u t t h e case law's pretty clear
there has to be something other than the
confession. Not j u s t , well, it's n o t f a i r that
68
he can confess to something, destroy all of the
evidence, and then we can't go any further with
the case because we can't corroborate the
confession. That's the law.

THE COURT: I think -- and I don't have a n y
cases in front of me right now -- but most r e c e n t l y
there was a case called State v . Baaairtex. It's at
2006, uh, Wisconsin Appellate something or other,

uh, and t h a t stated, once a g a i n , what I think,
essentially, both defense and prosecution agree,
that an uncorroborated confession cannot stand alone
to sustain a conviction.
What I believe the, uh -- t h e general
rule is, that there has to be some material fact
that corroborates, in one way or another, the
confession. Uh, the State, uh, is correct in
saying that at this stage in t h e proceeding there
need be shown here a prima facie case to, uh,
allow the Court to conclude, under the best of
all circumstances, at least at viewed -- as
viewed from the prosecution standpoint, t h a t a
case h a s been entered t h a t could convict a
defendant on a particular charge.

The -- In this particular instance,
the -- the -- the State finds some of t h e
69
implements described in t h e statement of t h i s
defendant, and introduced, uh, uh, by way of the
videotape, uh, and the implements, themselves,
introduced here as pieces of evidence, to be
sufficient material corroborating evidence to --

to at least, uh, move this beyond this stage in
the proceedings, a n d 1'11 respectfully deny your
motion.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: When would you l i k e us

back, Judge?
THE COURT: Uh, 10:25.
(Reconvened a t 10:27 a.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you, Judge.
We'd call, f i r s t , Kxis Schoenenberger-Gross.
THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
BRIS SCHOENIWBERGER-GROSS ,
c a l l e d as a witness herein, h a v i n g been f i r s t d u l y
THE WITNESS: Kris Schoenenberger-Gross,

S-c-h-o-e-n-e-n-b-e-r-g-e-r, hyphen, G-w-o-s-s.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
70
.1
Q Urn, Ms. Gross, if you could j u s t pull the

microphone a little closer to you. Thank you.
Where do you work?
A Mishicot School District.
Q And how l o n g have you been with the Mishicot
School District?
A This is my ninth year.
Q In what capacity do you work at t h e , uh, Mishicot

School District?
A I'm the school psychologist and the coordinator of
alternative services, which includes the special
education coordinator responsibilities.
Q In t h e capacity as the school counselor, are you

familiar with Brendan Dassey?
A Yes.
Q Now, how -- F i r s t of a l l , without going into

specifics, how do you know Brendan Dassey?
A I know him as a student at Mishicot High School and

as a student whom I evaluated.
Q Generally, in the -- the c o u r s e of your

responsibilities w i t h t h e Mishicot School
District, do you maintain or compile records

pertaining to each student?
A Yes.
71
Q And n o t -- not j u s t students that maybe you're
involved with, a l l the students in the Mishicot

School District; correct?
A Correct.
Q And those are maintained at the School District,
itself?
A Yes.
Q And t h e s e t y p e of records would include, f o r
instance, class s c h e d u l e s , grades, uh,
evaluations, I E P s ?
A Correct.
Q Among o t h e r things possibly?

A Correct.
Q In your, urn, capacity as the s c h o o l counselor, do

you have access to these records?
A Yes.
Q And you have an opportunity at times to review
the records?
A Yes.
Q Now, in your c a p a c i t y and in your position as

s c h o o l counselor with t h e -- t h e Mishicot School
D i s t r i c t , had you, in fact, had access to the
records of Brendan Dassey?
A Yes.
Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as an
72
exhibit. Does it i n d i c a t e t h a t that's been
marked as an Exhibit 217?
A Yes.
Q And can you tell us what that is?

A Urn, t h i s is a compilation of Brendan's records.
Q And you brought that t o court today; correct?

A Correct.
Q So do you believe that that's a, uh, t r u e and

accurate copy of the records from the Mishicot
School District that you've had access to?
A Yes.
Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as

Exhibit 218. 1'11 leave this here in case you
need to --
A Okay.
Q -- refer to it. It is -- Again, this -- this is

marked as Exhibit 218; correct?
A Correct.
Q Now, did this appear to be a record, f o r

instance, t h a t we've been talking about? Records
kept i n t h e normal course of t h e School District
activities?
A Yes.
Q And, specifically, this is a record of Brendan

Dassey; correct?
73
A Correct.
Q Can you tell us what -- what this is?

A This is a copy of, urn, Brendan's most recent I E P ,
Individualized Education Program, which contains, urn,
t h e goals that he was working on, services that were
provided through his special education programming.
Q I want to ask you, if you could, if you could

refer to page -- I believe it's listed as --
either it's 1.11 or l-11? And do you -- do you
see that?
A Urn-hmm.
Q You have to --
A Yes.
Q -- answer y e s .
A Yes.
Q And this is p a r t of t h a t first, urn, I E P ; correct?

A Correct.
Q And -- a n d I shouldn't s a y , f i r s t . It's actually

dated September 29, 2005; correct?
A Correct.
Q C o u l d you refer to the last paragraph on that
page? Do you see where it starts, p r e s e n t level
of education performance? And t h e r e seems to be
an un-highlighted or bold section and a bold

section; correct?
74
Correct.
Now, t h e other -- the section that's not bold, is
that j u s t the standard form, i t s e l f ?
Correct.
And then the bold section is added to it by an
evaluator or someone else from the school;
correct?
Correct.
And if you could j u s t look down to w h e r e it

starts, speech -- uh, speech, s l a s h , language?
You see where t h a t is?
Yes.
could you read from that?
He exhibits difficulty responding c l e a r l y and

concisely to o t h e r s . Paragraph comprehension,
defining vocabulary, and understanding
age-appropriate vocabulary terms remains challenging.
Brendan will occasionally a s k questions
when he is unsure. However, e y e contact and
participation d u r i n g discussions with adults and
peers is limited. Brendan's memory,
specifically, is a f f e c t i n g all areas of language.

And -- and, actually, j u s t to be clear, t h e word
"discussion" is actually misspelled; correct?
Correct.
Q Okay. And, again, that's j u s t simply a summary
of present level of educational performance? Or
part of the summary?
A Correct.
Q Okay. I'm now going to show you what's been

marked as Exhibit 219. And, again, can you -- do
you recognize that document?
A Yes.
Q A -- again, is that something that's from the

f u l l record before you in Exhibit 217?
A Yes, it is.
Q T h a t q s j u s t one item t a k e n from that larger group

of documents; correct?
A Correct.
Q Again, k e p t a t t h e School District?

A Correct.
Q And can you tell us what this -- this, uh,
Exhibit 219 is?

A This is, um, t h e evaluation summary pages from t h e
re -- or -- re-evaluation which was conducted in
September of 2005.
Q So this is one r e p o r t used to generate t h e

progress r e p o r t that we've j u s t discussed? The
IEP?
A Correct.
76
Q And ask you to refer to -- I believe it's
under -- it's on t h e first page, par -- page 1.5?

Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And u n d e r -- There's some handwritten

notes u n d e r the s e c t i o n -- looks like the -- a
form section. It says, to guide this analysis?
You see t h a t ?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Can you read the handwriting? I know --

I -- I don't --
A Yes.
Q -- know if you -- Okay. Can -- can you, uh, read

what that s t a t e s ?
A Brendan continues to demonstrate delays i n h i s b a s i c
r e a d i n g , reading comprehension, and language s k i l l s ,
both receptively and expressively. Brendan needs
specialized instruction which t h e r e g u l a r education
environment alone does not provide.
H e needs special education services and
supports to help h i m be successful in school and
to help meet h i s needs.
Q Thank you. Can -- and if I ask you to refer,

then, to page -- again I don't know if i t f s 1.3
or 1.3 -- of that same exhibit, Exhibit 219? Do
77
you see that?
A Yes.
Q And under, E -- Again, this is p a r t of that same

evaluation r e p o r t ; is that correct?
A Correct.
Q And, again, there's some handwriting on this form

as well?
A Correct.
Q And under, E, where it indicates, observations by

teachers or related service providers?
A Urn-hmm. Yes.
Q C o u l d you read t h e handwritten comments?
A Uses minimal eye contact, gestures, and a variation
of pitch in conversations in therapy and in the
classroom. Willingly participates in speech and
language t h e r a p y sessions.
Q I'm now g o i n g to show you what's been previously

marked as Exhibit 220, and do you recognize this
document?
A Yes.
Q Again, is this from that l a r g e x compilation of

school records?
A Yes.
Q And what is this, uh, specific document?
A This is an evaluation report that was completed by
78
the speech and language pathologist.
Q So this is specifically in regards to speech and

language; correct?
A Correct.
Q If I can a s k you to refer to page t h r e e of that

document? And before I do so, I'm sorry, if I
can have you go back to the first page, it's not

actually dated with a specific date, is it?
A No. There are two dates.
Q Two dates. So the evaluation went from

September 22 and 27th of ' 0 5 ?
A Correct.
Q And, again, back t o page three, under paragraph
s i x , discussion and summary, there appears to
be -- well, appears to be the summary of the
evaluation; correct?
A Correct.
Q Could you read that, please? I
A Overall, Brendan demonstrates significantly delayed
receptive and expressive language skills, memory,
short-term memory, immediate memory, and w o r k i n g
memory, vocabulary, sentence comprehension,
pragmatics, and areas of abstract language. For
example, idioms.
Brendan's language standard scores range
79
from 58 to 83 with an overall language score of
66. Brendanfs strengths are in his willingness
to participate in speech t h e r a p y , knowledge of
familiar sequences and his articulation s k i l l s .
This i n f o m a t i o n will be shared with t h e I E P
team.
Q And, a g a i n , these are all records that are

normally kept in the -- at the School District?
A Correct.
Q And you have access to?
A Yes.
Q And have reviewed as well at times?
A Yes.
Q I'm now going to show you Exhibit 221, and though

the questioning may sound repetitive, again, t h i s
is -- also appears to be a separate document from
that compilation you -- exhibit before you?
A' Correct.
Q Can you, uh, indicate w h a t that -- what that

document is?
A This is t h e I E P document dated October 12, 2004.
Q Similar to the one that you described in Exhibit

218 from September 29, 2005?
A Similar to. It does n o t include evaluation --
Q Okay.
80
A -- results.
Q And, again, i f I could a s k you t o refer to
whether it's page 1-11 or 1.11?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if -- if -- if I
may interpose an objection, we've heard about
Brendanrs, urn, educational programming, urn, close
to t h i s event. That is, in the fall of 2005. I

don't know h o w going back several years is at a l l
relevant to any, uh, material f a c t t h a t this j u r y

h a s t o decide. T h a t i s , uh, how Brendan may have
done in school in ninth grade, or eighth grade,
or f o u r t h grade, uh, I don't think really has any
relevance to this case.
THE COURT: I think t h i s i s from October 1
of 2004?
THE COURT: So that would be, uh, a year
prior; correct?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: It l o o k s l i k e they're

going backwards.
THE COURT: Well, I -- I'm -- I'm cognizant

of moving backwards here. Are -- a r e w e going
back -- are you proposing to go back further than
this?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have t w o more,
81
r
I -- I guess, given the historical background --
Uh, and if State wants to agree that the
information will be similar to what the
information i s from Exhibit 218, 2 1 9 and 220, I
have no problem, uh, e n d i n g at this p o i n t .
THE COURT: Any response?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I want to know how it

is --
THE COURT: Well --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- relevant to or
material issue of this case, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, I think -- I t h i n k it --
it c e r t a i n l y has some relevance. I'll -- I'll
o v e r r u l e your o b j e c t i o n . 1'11 permit the testimony
with respect to -- to 2004. Beyond that, I think we
do, uh -- I -- I t h i n k we're simply g o i n g to be
replicating what has already been testified to. So,
with that said, you may go ahead.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) An -- and, again, I'm
r e f e r r i n g to you on page 1 - 1 1 or 1-11?
A Yes.
Q Uh, there is, urn, a handwritten note on t h e form

as well?
A Correct.
82
Q Okay. Bear with me. I j u s t lost my place. The
last sentence of that, uh, handwritten paragraph,
starting with, Brendan will occasionally, c a n you
read from t h e r e ?
A Brendan will occasionally ask questions when he is

unsure. However, e y e c o n t a c t and participation
during discussions with adults and peers is limited.
Q So, again, pretty similar to the previous -- or

the September, '05, I E P ?
A Correct.
Q I j u s t have one more exhibit.
(Exhibit No. 224 marked f o r identification.)
Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as

Exhibit 2 --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: J u s t a minute. Could
you --
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) -- what's been marked as
Exhibit 2 2 4 . And, again, would that a1 -- also
appear to be one of t h e pages or documents that
is kept in that compilation exhibit before you?

A Correct.
Q And this is from September 16, ' 0 5 ?

A Correct.
Q These are -- What -- what, specifically, is t h i s

document?
83
A This is a document that one of Brendan's r e g u l a r
education teachers completed, urn, to provide
observations about how he performs in the classroom,
how he processes information based on that person's
observations.
Q Can you turn to t h e second page of that document?
And if you could read from that highlighted
section?
A Brendan is expressionless, no facial expression,
seemingly blank stare, possibly indicating
daydreaming.
Q Thank you.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you, Judge. I
have no other questions.
THE COURT: Cross?
CROSS- TIO ON
BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
Q Uh, Ms. Schoenenberger-Gross, uh, as a school

psych -- Oh, I'm sorry. As a school
psychologist, urn, are you educated to the point
where you have a Ph.D?
A No.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, can we
approach?
THE COURT: Sure.
84
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Before I --
(Discussion o f f t h e record.)
Q (By A t t o r n e y Kratz) I t h i n k w e l e f t off w i t h
y o u r e d u c a t i o n a l background. Could you j u s t t e l l
u s what that is, p l e a s e ?
A I have a Master's of Science in education in the area
of school psychology.
Q A l l right. And, u s u a l l y , when we hear t h e term
t " ,a r e n ' t we normally h e a r i n g .

n p s y ~ h ~ l ~ g i ~urn,
f r o m people w i t h , urn, a more advanced degree? A
Doctorate? A Ph.D? Or something l i k e t h a t ?
A Correct.
Q H o w is it, then, that you have obtained t h e title
psychologist?
A Well, school psychologists, s p e c i f i c a l l y , um, which,
urn, I'm able to obtain with a Master's Degree, b u t my
p o s i t i o n and t r a i n i n g i s i n e v a l u a t i n g students, urn,
i n t e r p r e t i n g e v a l u a t i o n results, c o n d u c t i n g
o b s e r v a t i o n s , interviews, urn, you know, through the
special education progress programs and trying t o
h e l p d e t e r m i n e appropriate programming for s t u d e n t s .
Q And it's w i t h i n t h a t academic a r e n a t h a t you're
able not o n l y t o review just records, uh, b u t
you're a b l e t o form some opinions? And, in fact,

you've been asked to do this in the past in this
85
very case, haven't you?
A Correct.
Q Mr. Fremgen provided you a very large binder of

materials, Exhibit 217. Uh, those a r e the school
records. Have you had the o p p o r t u n i t y i n , uh, a
rather detailed way to review Brendan's prior
school records?
A Yes, I have.
Q And not o n l y have you reviewed t h o s e records, b u t

you have, y o u r s e l f , t h a t i s , as the school
psychologist, uh, performed some testing,

performed some examinations, and certainly
interviewed Brendan in the past; isn't that

right?
A Correct.
Q When determining t h e appropriate programming for

a n y student, especially students who are a t least
under t h e , uh, broad umbrella of s p e c i a l
education, uh, it falls upon you to do that

testing; is that right?
A Correct.
Q Let's talk about Brendan's educational program.

F i r s t of a l l , it ' s true, is it not, that Brendan
was i n regular classes at Mishicot?
A Yes.
86
Q So he wasn't the kind of s t u d e n t t h a t , uh, you
would consider to be, uh, cognitively disabled?
You know what I mean by that term, don't you?
A Yes.
Q Was he the k i n d of student that your, urn, school

district considered cognitively disabled?
A No.
Q And although getting some special classes in

speech or language, Brendan pretty much, urn, was
a normal kid? That is, uh, went through normal
classes in Mishicot; is that right?
A Yes.
Q During your examinations of Brendan, do you

recall providing Brendan with, uh, various tests
that are tests t h a t you could, uh, assess
3rendan1s general IQ level?
A Yes.
Q And within his IQ t e s t s , and understanding IQ's

kind of a broad, uh, range, but there are also
abilities that psychologists and, in fact, you
have, to assess, urn, where Brendan may have some
strengths and where he may have some weaknesses,
at least cognitively or, uh, his ability to
understand, or to t h i n k , or to achieve; isn't
that true?
87
A Yes.
Q A r e you familiar with the Woodcock-Johnson t e s t ?
A Yes.
Q Could you j u s t b r i e f l y t e l l t h e jury what that

is, p l e a s e ?
A Urn, Woodcock- Johnson, Third E d i t i o n , has tests of
cognitive abilities and achievements. Urn, the
cognitive t e s t looks at, urn, measure of intelligence,

looking at his overall intellectual ability.
Q All right. And some of those areas that you look

at, uh, some of those sub-areas that we t a l k e d
about, included, uh, his, urn, verbal abilities;
isn't that right?
A Yes.
Q And his ability to t h i n k ? That is, what's

called, uh, the thinking scores, or the thinking
range; isn't that true?
A Yes.
Q Now, are there, urn, norms? In other words, are

t h e r e numbers or averages t h a t , uh, when a test
like that is scored, they're put into?

A Yes.
Q Now, the Woodcock-Johnson, 'uh, test, uh, could

you tell us what t h e average score is? Or if
there's a range of b e i n g average?
88
A The average range would be approximately 90 to 109.
Q All right. Now, one of t h e things you tested

Brendan for was something called the thinking?
That is, the ability to problem-solve or to
process information; isn't that true?
A Yes.
Q And are you familiar, Ms., uh,

Schoenenberger-Gross, with what Brendanls scores
were on h i s t h i n k i n g ability? That is, his

ability to process information or to
problem-solve?
A Yes.
Q What is that score?

A A 93.
Q Ninety-three?
A Ninety-three.
Q That place, uh, Brendan in t h e average range of,

uh, his thinking ability?
A Yes.
Q Other things that you test f o r in, urn, students,

not just Brendan, but in other students, a r e
their ability to achieve academically? That is,
how well theytre able to, or at least p r e d i c t i v e ,

that is, how -- how you can predict they're going
to do, with, I guess, what we used to call book
89
l e a r n i n g ; isn't that r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q And, again, those tests that are performed, urn,

a r e broken down into various -- especially w i t h
academic scores -- various disciplines? Academic
disciplines l i k e reading, or math, or reasoning,
ox things like that; isn't that true?
A Urn-hmm. Yes.
Q And d i d you perform t h o s e tests and are you aware
of the results of those tests for Brendan?
A Uh, I did not personally perform an academic

achievement test on Brendan, b u t there was one
conducted in 2002, and I am aware of those results.
Q All r i g h t . Now, as you mentioned before, Brendan

has some, urn, deficits, or at least he needed
some extra tutoring or help, uh, in t h e area of
speech or, uh, language, or even in reading;
isn't that true?
A Yes.
Q Uh, are you aware of t h e results f o r Brendan,

let's say, in the area of math? His math skills
and achievement levels?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us what that number was, please?
A I n 2002, he scored within t h e average range. I would
90
need to refer to the report to g i v e the exact number.
Q Are you able to find that quickly?

A I -- I certainly can.
Q Why don't you look at Exhibit 2 1 7 a n d find that
f o r us, please. His math score was what?
A Uh, math reasoning was a 102. Math calculation
s k i l l s , 100.
Q Okay. And is that s c o r e d on the same, urn, basic

score? That is, anywhere between 90 and 110 is
considered average?
A Correct.
Q Now, what's the difference between math and math

reasoning?
A Um, math calculation would be where he's required to,
urn, do some possibly adding, subtracting,
multiplying, d i v i d i n g . Just solving the basic
problems that are in t h e book. Reasoning, he needs

to apply the skills he has, which may include some
story problems that he would need to figure o u t how
to s e t up and solve.
Q And it's within that test, that is, when provided

with a story problem, or when given a set of
facts t h a t he h a s to apply, uh, Brendan actually
achieved, if we're going to be technical about
it, over and above average? A 102; isn't t h a t
91
true?
A Average. A 102 would be solid average range.
Q All right.
A Um-hmm .
Q So these results, t h a t is, t h a t is e i t h e r 9 3 in
processing or problem-solving, or the 102, o r t h e
100 results, supported your conclusion that
Brendan does not have any cognitive disabilities;
isn't that true?
A Correct.
Q As a school psychologist, are you a l s o called

upon on occasion to assess and to make
recommendations about some behavioral problems?
A Yes.
Q Now, behavioral programming, at l e a s t within a

school d i s t r i c t , and Mishicot's no d i f f e r e n t than
other school d i s t r i c t s , can i n c l u d e some
specialized classes? I n f a c t , can include
segregation of students from what's called t h e
g e n e r a l population; isn't that true?
A Correct.
Q Now, was Brendan a behavioral problem at

Mishicot?
A No.
Q D i d Brendan e x h i b i t a n y difficulties with, urn,
92
a c t i n g o u t at school or, uh, in a, uh -- or
demonstrating an inability to follow direction?
A No. And "direction" meaning regarding behavior,
specifically.
Q I'm t a l k i n g about behavior --

A Yes.
Q -- at this point. If Brendan would have been

unable, f o r whatever reason, an inability to, urn,
conform or, uh, would -- would exhibit a -- a --
a propensity to act out in school, uh, would it
be l i k e l y that he would have been removed from
g e n e r a l classes?
A Over time, we would t r y intervention first, but --
b u t if that is not working, then we would look at
o t h e r programming options.
Q In fact, those programming options are called ED
or, uh, possibly, uh, emotionally disturbed
c l a s s e s f o r -- f o r c h i l d r e n ; is that correct?
A Correct.
Q That wasn't Brendan?

A No.
Q When you go through all these, urn, what are

c a l l e d I E P , t h e Individual. Education Programs,
and for Brendan it was for speech and -- and
language, uh, was Brendan's mother involved in
93
those programming meetings?
A Yes.
Q And to your knowledge, and i n , uh, reflection of
the E x h i b i t , uh, 217, did Brendanls mother ever
express any particular concerns, uh, that, uh --
that she had with Brendan? Let's talk
behaviorally f i r s t , okay?
A Behaviorally? Can I r e f e r to if she -- if it was
documented?
Q Yeah, why don't you do that?
A Okay. D i d you say -- 217 in the binder. Okay. Are
you referring to t h e last I E P meeting, can I ask?

Or --
Q And that's t h e most relevant. In t h e fall of --
A Okay.
Q -- uh, 2005. Are t h e r e any behavioral notes

that --
A Okay.
Q -- are included?
A Urn, in the IEP, it was indicated that she would l i k e

him to continue to main an -- an assignment notebook.
Q Okay. So o t h e r than mom would l i k e him to keep

a -- an assignment notebook, there were no other
problems t h a t were noted at home? Behaviorally.

A Behaviorally? No. Not t h a t I recall.
94
Q Okay. Let's t a l k about memory j u s t a -- a -- a
l i t t l e b i t , because I know t h a t , you know, one of
the notes that Mr. Fremgen had you read, it talks
a l i t t l e bit about memory; isnvt that -- isn't
that right?
A Correct.
Q Are you familiar w i t h different k i n d s of memory?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar that there is a d i f f e r e n c e

between something that is called, uh, event
memory, that is, when somebody actually goes
through an event and they remember it when
they've l i v e d through something, t h a t they

remember that differently than, say, when a
teacher reads them a story, or when t h e y learn
something i n class? You know ..therevsa
d i f f e r e n c e in those two k i n d s of memory?
A Yes.
Q Now, from an academic standpoint, the memory that

you're most concerned about, and the memory that
Mr. Fremgen had you read about, uh, is that

second k i n d . That is, t h e memory that, uh, has
to do with l e a r n i n g or what he can remember from
a classroom setting; isn't that true?
A Correct.
95
Q You didn't test f o r -- and I assume you don't
have an opinion -- as to Brendan's ability to
r e c a l l or remember t h i n g s that he's actually
lived through? That's true; i s n q t it?
A True.
Q Do you still have Exhibit 224 with you?

A Yes.
Q Mr. Fremgen asked you to read something. I think

it was on the second page. He highlighted
something for you to read. Do you see that?
A Yes.
Q I'm going to a s k you to read t h e l i n e j u s t b e f o r e

what Mr. Fremgen asked you to read. Could you do
t h a t f o r m e , please?
A He will respond when called on by teacher if he knows
t h e answer. If n o t , he shrugs his shoulders.
Q So from an educational classroom standpoint, when

Brendan, urn, was c a l l e d on in class and he didn't
know the answer, that note reflects he j u s t
shrugged his shoulders; isn't that right?
A Correct.
Q Nothing in t h a t note that's says when Brendan

didn't know an answer, he just made something up?
He j u s t made up some f a l s e statement? Note
doesn't say t h a t , does it?
96
A It does n o t .
Q The f i n a l area of questions that I have for you,
Ms. Schoenenbexges-Gross, comes in the area of
suggestibility. Are t h e r e some students within
the Mishicot School District that you identify,
and, in fact, your staff, uh, expresses concerns
about, being overly suggestible?
A We -- w e w o u l d n v t probably u s e the tern l r s u g g e s t i b l e "
but w e would, perhaps, u s e t h e term, "easily
influenced". Urn, and, yes, there are.
Q All right. And if there's a s t u d e n t i n Mishicot,

uh -- in the Mishicot School District that you've
observed as being easily i n f l u e n c e d , or easily
led, uh, is that something that would be
addressed either through programming or
discussions with teachers or discussion with
parents ?
A Yes.
Q And that's happened before at Mishicot, hasn't

it?
A Yes.
Q Now, last question I have f o r you is, did the

Mishicot School District ever, ever i d e n t i f y t h a t
Brendan Dassey was e a s i l y i n f l u e n c e d , or e a s i l y
led, or suggestible, such that you addressed with
97
-
either a teacher or a p a r e n t that particular
observation?
A There's n o t h i n g in t h e records to indicate that that
was an area of concern.
Q That's fine. Thank you f o r coming.

ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's all I have,
Judge.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, please.
Q I'm g o i n g to show you what's been marked as, uh,

Exhibit 223. Do you recognize that document?
A Yes.
Q During some of the questions by Mr. Kratz, you

were r e f e r r i n g to test results. Urn, I believe
one, specifically, was the Woodcock-Johnson?
A Yes.
Q And --
THE COURT: Excuse me. Could you have her
i d e n t i f y t h e document?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'm sorry.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) What is -- What is t h a t

document ?
A T h i s is a copy of my report from t h e testing that I
98
did in October of -- of 2002.
Q And is -- is this where you were testifying to as

far as, um, some of the numbers in regards to t h e
Woodcock -- Wood -- for instance, the

Woodcock-Johnson?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And so this would be, urn, t h e a c t u a l
r e p o r t where you -- where some of the questions
came from Mr. Kratz in regards to, f o r i n s t a n c e ,
that one test and some o t h e r tests in regards to
cognitive abilities; correct?

A Correct.
Q Now, the a c t u a l test x e s u l t of the

Woodcock-Johnson General Intellectual Ability was
what score?
A Seventy-eight.
Q And is that average? B e l o w average? Ox what --

what -- what would you, uh -- how would you
describe t h a t ?
A That would be a borderline to below average range.
a Referring to that same exhibit on page two under

your observations and discussion?
A Yes.
Q Can you read t h e second sentence under that --

your observations and discussion of assessment
99
results?
A In t h e f i r s t paragraph?
Q Uh, the first paragraph u n d e r that sGbsection.

Correct.
A Okay. He guessed on t h e items that he was n o t sure
about at times.
Q So at times when he didn't know answers, you're
saying he guessed at them?
A Yes.
Q NOW, the -- the attachment to that, uh -- to your

report in -- indicates actual test score results
and his percentile ranking; correct?
A Yes.
Q And under the observations a n d discussion
setting -- uh, section of your r e p o r t , you

a c t u a l l y reference, urn -- For instance, if you
can go down, oh, that second full paragraph,
p r o b a b l y three quarters of the way down, where it
indicates Brendan -- uh, Brendan obtained a
cognitive efficiency standard score of 73?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And the percentile ranking is what?

A Four.
Q What is the significance of that? What does that

mean?
100
A That means that on that particular area Brendan
scored as well as, or better than, f o u r o u t of one
hundred students his age.
Q So if I'm -- J u s t to make sure I'm clear, 96

people would have scored better than -- out of a
hundred would have scored better than him in

regards to the cognitive efficiency test?
A As well a s or better than him.
Q As well as or better?
A Urn-hmm.
Q And r i g h t after that, you comment about his
short-term memory abilities? Can you read that
line?
A Brendants short-term memory abilities are within the
well-below average to borderline r a n g e .
Q Now, you testified on cross that -- that is --

that -- that, generally, Brendan was in
mainstream, uh, classes at Mishicot; correct?

A Correct.
Q And -- but you would agree that, based on -- if

you need to review the I E P s -- his fourth grade
reading l e v -- or, excuse me -- h i s r e a d i n g level
was at a fourth grade level? Or do you recall
what level he was listed at r e a d i n g ?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: I'm going to --
101
A Uh --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if I may
interpose an o b j e c t i o n , I'm n o t sure t h a t this
jury, urn, needs to, urn, consider anything about
Brendan's reading level. I didn't hear a n y

testimony about any reading a b i l i t y .
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: The State that --

t a l k e d about math level. I t h i n k I can go --
THE COURT: We -- we --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- into that.
THE COURT: Yeah. Uh, I'm going to

overrule t h e objection. We've -- we've heard a lot,
and t h e State p u t some of it in. Well, I'll
overrule t h e objection and s h e can answer the

question.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) And -- and if you need to

refresh --
A I --
Q -- your recollection --
A -- would need to refer to --
Q I believe --
A -- something.
Q -- it would be the first -- Well, l e t me g e t t h e
number f o r you. You should have the exhibit up
102
there. It's a separate exhibit from 217. I
believe it's the, uh -- the September 29, 2005,
IEP. I believe that is Exhibit 218?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And I believe if you refer, again, to page
1.11?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Does it indicate what his reading level

was?
A Brendan is currently reading at the end of fourth
grade level.
Q And what grade level was he in at that time?

A Tenth grade.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have nothing else.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's a l l I have.
Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: You may s t e p down. Thank you.
Your next witness, Counsel?

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge. We'll
call Blaine Dassey.
THE COURT: I showed this witness testified

with respect to Exhibits 217 to 221, 223 and 224.
Was there a 222?

DEFENDANT'S ATTORNEY: I would withdraw --
103
Well, I d i d n ' t actually o f f e r 222. No, t h a t was
another exhibit.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Are you offering

these at this time?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, I -- we would
offer those exhibits at this time.

THE COURT: Any o b j e c t i o n ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: For the r e a s o n s they
were used, no, Judge.
THE COURT: Okay. And they're received for
that. Come on up here and just remain standing.
You're going to be sworn in as a witness.

THE CLERK: Please raise your r i g h t hand.
DASSEY,
called as a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and t e s t i f i e d a s follows:
THE WITNESS: Blaine Dassey,
D-a-s-s-e-y.
D I m C T EXAMINATION
Q Blaine, how old are you?

A Eighteen.
a And are you currently in school?

A Yes.
Q What school do you go to?

A Mishicot High School.
Q Who do you live with r i g h t now?
A Urn, my mom, Barb.
Q Anyone else Live in the house with you?

A Yeah. Scott Tadych.
Q And who's Scott?

A He ' s my step-dad.
Q Now, do you recall who was living with you on

October 31, 2005?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us who was a l l living there?

A Urn, my mom, uh, Tom -- Tom Janda, and me, Brendan,
Bobby and Bryan.
Q Now, you've mentioned Brendan. Do you recognize

Brendan?
A Yes.
Q R i g h t here? That's your b r o t h e r ; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q Okay. He's a year younger than you?

A Yes.
Q Do you recall -- Again, I asked if you recalled

where you lived on October 31, 2005, b u t do you
recall the events of that day?
105
A Yes.
Q A n d I q m g o i n g t o h a v e y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h a t day
and answer some questions; all r i g h t ?
A Yeah. Okay.
Q Were you in school that day?

A Yes.
Q Now, normally, how -- what time do you g e t home

from school?
A Three f o r t y - f i v e .
Q What time did you get home on that day?

A Three forty-five.
Q Was t h i s a normal day f o r you then?

A Yes.
Q D i d you come home with anyone in particular?
A No.
Q Does anyone else r i d e the bus with you?
A No.
Q No one else on t h e school bus?

A Except f o r Brendan.
Q Except for Brendan? Okay. And did Brendan come

home with you that day as well?
A Yes.
Q What did you guys do when you got o f f the bus?
A We walked down t h e -- t h e long road.
a The long road?
106
A Yeah.
Q Okay. So --
A The --
Q I'm s o r r y .
A The road that our house is on.
Q Okay. So you -- does the bus -- doesn't drop you

o f f in f r o n t of your house?
A No.
Q Drops you o f f about how far away?

A About a half a mile.
Q How long does it take you to g e t from your house

to where they drop you o f f ?
A About f o u r minutes. Three minutes.
Q On that day, did you take about three or f o u r

minutes to g e t home that day?
A Yes.
Q As you were w a l k i n g with Brendan, did you notice

anything?
A No.
Q D i d you guys t a l k about anything on the w a y from
t h e bus stop to -- to the house?
A Urn, yes.
Q What did you talk about?
A About using the phone or computer.
Q Why d i d you guys talk about ;sing t h e phone or
107
the computer?
A I don't know. Because that ' s all we do.
Q Something to talk a b o u t ?
A Yeah.
Q Do you have j u s t one phone and one computer?

A Yes.
Q Can't both be on at the same time?

A No.
Q When you got into t h e house, do you -- who g o t to
use the phone?
A I did.
Q What did you do?

A I called my friend, Jason.
a And why did you call Jason?

A Because we were going to go t r i c k or treating.
Q So this was Halloween; right?

A Yes.
Q So did Bsendan plan on going t r i c k or treating

with you?
A No.
Q Was anyone else home when you got home? You --

when you and Brendan got home?
A No.
Q Now, you said that you have a brother at that

time that lived w i t h you as w e l l ?
108
Yes.
And that was?
Bobby.
Bobby. Bobby was n o t home?
No.
But did Bobby g e t home at anytime that afternoon
when you were there?

I don't remember. No. I don't t h i n k he was.
You don't t h i n k so?
He wasn't -- He wasn't t h e r e .
So after you g o t done t a l k i n g to Jason on the
phone, what did you do?
Uh, went on the computer.

And how long were you on the computer?
Urn, about 30 minutes.
Now, do you know where Bsendan was during this

time period?
Yes. He was playing with t h e video games.
So you have a -- a separate -- do you have
separate rooms or are you in the same room?
We're in the same room.
So t h e computer is the same room as t h e TV room
or the video room?
Yes.
D i d Brendan ever leave?

A No.
Q At what time did you actually leave, then, to
meet Jason?
A About 5:20.
Q Did you have supper?
A No. Yeah.
Q You d i d have supper?

A Yes.
Q Who made s u p p e r f o r you?
A Urn, me and Brendan made it.
Q Between 3 : 4 5 , when you left at 5:20, d i d you ever
see Brendan leave t h e house?
A No.
Q Were you watching him all the time?
A Yes.
Q You -- you keep t r a c k of your b r o t h e r that way?
A Yeah.
Q You do? Okay. Now, you -- a r e you guys close?

Would you say you're close?
A Yes.
Q D i d you notice, from about October 31, 2005 u n t i l
March of ' 0 6 , whether Brendan was losing weight?

A Yes.
Q D i d you guys talk about that?
A Yes.
110
Q Do you know why he was losing weight?
A Because, urn, everybody he knew would make f u n of him
because he's fat and stuff.
Q So he wanted to lose weight so no one would make

f u n of h i m ?
A Yes.
Q Did -- That same period of time, d i d he seem to

be overly emotional? Do you know what that
means?
A Yeah.
Q Do you -- Would you -- D i d he appear to be overly
emotional?
A Yes.
Q He did? D i d he cry a lot?
A Not really. H e , w a s just sad and s t u f f .
Q Okay. Now, was -- is that normally Brendan's

character? To be a little sad?
A I don't know. He was shy. He wouldn't -- He doesn't
talk a l o t .
Q To other people?
A Yeah.
Q What about to you?

A I don't think he -- I don't know.
Q Now, I -- I asked you earlier if you ever saw

Brendan go leave t h e house until you left to go
111
meet Jason at 5:20?
A Yeah.
Q Did you ever leave t h e house?

A No.
a Never went outside at a l l ?

A No.
Q At anytime did you guys look out the window?

A No.
Q Do you know if Brendan looked out t h e window?

A No.
Q You me -- you mean you don't know if he did or he

didn't look out the window?
A No, he didn't. He was playing his video games.
Q Did, uh, Steven Avery -- You know w h o Steven

Avery is; right?
A Yes.
Q A n d who is he?
A He's my uncle.
Q And how far away does he live from you?

A He's our neighbor. L i k e right across --
Q Pretty close or --
A Yeah.
Q -- miles?
A P r e t t y close. P r e t t y close.
Q Couple hundred feet maybe?
112
A Yeah.
Q Did he ever come over to your house?
A Yeah.
Q Between 3 : 4 5 and --
A No.
Q -- 5:20 that d a y --
A No.
Q You -- Did anyone come over to the house at

that --
A No.
Q -- that day? Now, what time did you get home

that n i g h t ?
A About 11.
Q About ll?
A Yeah.
Q D i d you see Brendan when you g o t in?
A Yes.
Q Where was he?

A He was in his bed.
Q Thank you, Blaine. I have nothing else.

THE COURT: Cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
Q Blaine, do you remember testifying in t h e trial

of Steven Avery?
113
A Yes.
Q Do you remember in that t r i a l being asked t h e

question, when you g o t home at 11 or 11:30, if
you saw Brendan in your bedroom?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember being asked that q u e s t i o n ?

A Yes.
Q What did you t e l l the jury at that time?

A That I didn't see him.
Q That you didn't see him; r i g h t ?

A (No verbal response. )
Q Now, in t h e last f o u r weeks has your memory

gotten better?
A Yeah.
Q I t 7 s gotten better in t h e l a s t --
A I --
Q -- four w e e k s ?
A I -- I can remember.
Q You can remember better now?

A Yeah.
Q I ' m sorry?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Has nothing to do with your brother being

on t r i a l this time, does it?
A No.
114
Q You said that you went t r i c k or treating on t h e
31st. How o l d are you?
A Eighteen. Eighteen.
THE COURT: Could you pull that
microphone a little closer, please?

THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q (By Attorney K r a t z ) Thank you, Blaine. On

October 31, 2005, how o l d were you?
A Urn, 17.
Q And who, at age 17, were you g o i n g trick or

treating with?
A My friend, Jason, and his little brothers.
Q Where were you going t r i c k or t r e a t i n g ?

A Two Rivers. Manitowoc.
Q Now, in that community, that is, in Two Rivers,

urn, t r i c k or t r e a t i n g is on, actually, Halloween
Day; is that right?

A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with, uh, communities that have

trick or treating perhaps t h e day earlier? On
Sunday the day before?
A Yes.
Q And do you know around, urn, the Mishicot area if
there w e r e any communities, as you think back,
that had t r i c k or treating on t h a t Sunday?
115
A I d o n ' t remember.
Q Did you go trick or t r e a t i n g on that Sunday?

That is, t h e day before?
A No.
Q All right. You told Mr. Fremgen that as you

walked home, or as you walked down the -- the --
the path, and I'm going to show you what has been
received as Exhibit No. 71, as you w a l k e d down

this path, this road a c t u a l l y goes, uh, all t h e
way up towards your grandmother's house; is --
A Yes.
Q -- that right? You have to wait until I --

A Okay.
Q -- I -- I finish a s k i n g the question; all right?
But as you walked down towards your house, you
told Mr. Fremgen that you didn't see anything, or
that you didn't see a n y t h i n g unusual. You
remember saying t h a t today?

A Yes.
Q As you t h i n k back now, uh, do you now remember

something that you saw before you went into t h e
house?
A Yeah.
Q Why don't you tell the j u r y what you saw?

A I s e e n Steven Avery walking to t h e burn barrel with a
116
plastic bag i n h i s hand and he dropped i t in there.
Q And Steven Averyts your uncle; is that r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q Now, when Steven Avery you said was walking, urn,

towards a burn barrel, I'm going to, a g a i n , have
you l o o k at E x h i b i t No. 71, Blaine, and show you,
uh, what is, urn, j u s t k i n d of a -- uh, t o t h e
c e n t e r and t o the right of that exhibit, uh, what
looks like a burn barrel. Is that t h e burn

barrel that you're t a l k i n g about?
A Yes.
Q When you saw your Uncle Steven taking something

and putting it i n that b u r n barrel, did you
n o t i c e i f t h a t burn b a r r e l w a s burning? That is,

uh --
A Yes.
Q -- w a s it on fire?
A Yes.
Q Yes, i t w a s a l r e a d y burning?
A Yes.
Q And when you told this j u r y that you saw him
walking towards that burn barrel, did you see him

walking from his trailer towards that burn
barrel?
A Yes.
117
Q You said that you saw him p u t something in it.
A f t e r putting something in that burning b a r r e l ,
where d i d your Uncle Steve go?

A I t h i n k he went back to h i s house.
Q Did you see h i m turn around and go back to his
trailer?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, you t o l d this jury today that

you l e f t at about 5:20 to go to your friend,
Jason's; is that right?
A Yes.
Q How d i d you get to Jason's that day?

A His mom, Carmen Wiensch.
Q His mother's name is Carmen?

A Yeah.
Q And her last name is Wiensch; is that --

A Yes.
Q -- right? W-i-e-n-s-c-h?
A Yes.
Q Is that right? Okay. Now, where d i d she p i c k

y o u up?
A At the end of -- where the bus drops us o f f .
Q So you had to w a l k a ways from your trailer,

which is on Exhibit No. 71 here, back up t h a t
road f o r Mrs. Wiensch to pick you up; is t h a t --
118
A Yes.
Q -- right? You have to wait until I'm done asking

the question, okay?
A Okay.
Q Now, did she p i c k you up at 5:20 or did you leave

your house a t 5:20?
A She p i c k e d me up at 5:20.
Q So is it fair to say that you left your house

sometime before that?
A Yeah.
Q Now, you're telling us today that you got home a t

about what time?
A Eleven.
Q When you g o t home at about 11:00, why don't you

tell t h e jury what you saw before you w a l k e d into
your trailer?
A 1 s e e n a person standing o u t by the -- or, uh --

bonfire.
Q Now, up until now, we haven't heard about you

seeing a b o n f i r e . Why don't you tell us about
that?
A Say that question over?
Q Sure. Why don't you tell t h e jury about t h e

b o n f i r e that you saw?
A Urn, it was about five-foot high.
119
Q All right. Can you tell the jury where you saw
that b o n f i r e ?
A Behind Steven's garage.
Q All r i g h t . I'm going to have you look at E x h i b i t

No. 71 again, and this, uh, dark area right to
the left of the s c r e e n , uh, i s t h a t the area that

you saw that f i r e ?
A Yes.
Q Now, when you came walking into your house, um,
were there any obstructions to your view of that
bonfire? In other words, was there anything that

blocked your view between you and that fire?
A No.
Q You're t e l l i n g t h i s j u r y t h a t you saw somebody

standing by that b o n f i r e ; is that --
A Yes.
Q -- right? You have to wait until I'm done asking

the question. Were you able a t that time to
i d e n t i f y who it was who was standing by that
bonfire?
A Yeah. It was a bigger guy.
Q A bigger --
A Steven --
Q -- guy?
A -- Steven's size.
120
Q Steven's size?
A Yeah.
Q All right. Again, do you remember about four

w e e k s ago being a s k e d that same question?
A Yes.
Q What did you tell the j u r y about four w e e k s ago?
A That T said that I don't know who was standing out

there.
Q All right. But after t a l k i n g to Mr. Fremgen, and

a f t e r being called in your brother's case, you
now think that it was a bigger guy. Somebody

l i k e Steven; is that --
A Yes.
Q -- right?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Objection to the
question. There is no evidence that this witness
t a l k e d about --
THE COURT: I -- I --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I can ask it a -- a
d i f f e r e n t way.
THE COURT: Please do. I -- and, uh, I
direct that the jury not take notice of that
question.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's f i n e .
Q (By Attorney Kratz) Let. me a s k you this, B l a i n e ,
121
between that hearing, t h e S t e v e n Avery t r i a l , and
today, did you, in fact, talk to Mr. Fremgen?
A No.
Q You haven't t a l k e d to Mr. Fremgen or

Mr. Edelstein?
A No.
Q Uh, so there h a s n f t been any conversation at all

between -- between you and t h e m ; is t h a t right?
A No.
Q A11 r i g h t . Between that h e a r i n g , though, and

today, you agree that your testimony's d i f f e r e n t ;
is that true? 1'11 be more specific if you want
me to be.
A Yeah.
Q About t h e person that you saw o u t by t h e fire

that night? Yes?
A Yes.
Q And your testimony's different as to whether or

n o t your b r o t h e r , Brendan, was Rome. That's
different t h a n i t w a s four weeks ago; right?
A Yes.
Q You said that you a t e at home that n i g h t . That
is, in your trailer. Is that your testimony?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember on the 7 t h of November, that's
122
l i k e a year-and-a-half ago, being interviewed by
two agents of the Division of Criminal
Investigation?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember telling or being asked by those
agents where you ate dinner that night?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what you told those agents that
night?
A No, I don't remember.
Q Remember telling them that you had d i n n e r at your

friend, Jason's, house that night?
A No.
Q No? You don't remember telling them that?

A No.
Q Okay. Now, your Uncle Steve had a v e h i c l e , which

was called a S u z u k i Samurai. Do you know what
I'm talking about?
A Yes.
Q Let me j u s t get to that exhibit number. I'm

showing you Exhibit No. 117. Do you recognize
t h a t vehicle?
A Yes.
Q What is that?
A That's his S u z u k i .
123
Q And, uh, you knew that to be your U n c l e Steve's
Suzuki?
A No. It's my grandpa's.
Q Okay. I'm sorry. But you r e c o g n i z e it in this

photo, at least, to be in your Uncle Steve's
garage; is t h a t right?
A Yes.
Q Now, on the 31st, that is, on Halloween, do you

know where t h a t Suzuki was parked?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell t h e jury, please, where on t h e 17th
that was parked?
A It was on the outside on the left side of t h e garage.
Q All r i g h t . I'm going to show you what's been
received as Exhibit No. 67. And although -- In
t h a t photo we see it backed into t h e garage. The

31st, that is, on t h e Halloween when you got
home, you remember seeing that S u z u k i outside of

t h e garage, uh, to t h e left, or what would be to
the east, of your Uncle Steve's garage; isn't
that r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q NOW, do you know how that S u z u k i Samurai got p u t
into your Uncle Steve's garage and when that
happened?
124
A No.
Q You know that it was just sometime after

Halloween? That is, after t h e 31st --
A Yes.
Q -- is that right? Okay. When you left at, uh,

5: 00, Blaine -- I'm sorry, uh, sometime before
5:20. I guess you didn't say 5, you said

sometime before 5:20. Remember seeing a f i r e
behind Steve's garage even then? Even a little
a f t e r 5:00?
A No.
Q D i d you look? In other words, do know if there

was f i r e or did you j u s t n o t see it?
A No, I didn't look. I didn't see it.
Q That -- It's t w o d i f f e r e n t answers. D i d you
look?
A No.
Q Okay.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: If I could have j u s t a

moment, Judge? I have no f u r t h e r questions,
Judge. Thank you.
THE COURT: Any redirect?

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Please.
REDIRECT -NATION
125
Q When Mr. Kratz was asking you some questions, you
said t h a t , uh, you had seen S t e v e n , y o u r Uncle
Steven, dropping a bag i n t o a burn b a r r e l ;
correct?
A Yes.
Q And he showed you t h e p i c t u r e , and you agree that

that was t h e burn barrel; correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, t h e -- When was this? When did you see him

throwing -- d r o p p i n g the bag i n t o the b u r n
barrel?
A When we were w a l k i n g down t h e -- t h e driveway.
Q A n d by "we" who are you -- who do you mean?

A M e and Brendan.
Q So you and Brendan were w a l k i n g down back from
the school b u s ?
A Yes.
Q Sometime a f t e r 3:45?
A Yes.
Q You indicated that Jason's mom picked you up
about 5:20?
A Yes.
Q But t h a t would have been down by where t h e bus

drops you o f f and picks you up?
A Yes.
126
Q And you said it takes about how long to get down
that road?
A Three or four minutes.
Q So you would have left sometime three o r four

minutes before 5:20?
A Yes.
Q Mr. K r a t z was asking you if you recalled speaking

to, uh, law enforcement on November 7; correct?
Of --
A Yes.
Q -- 2005; correct?
A Yes.
Q I know that's a long time ago. B u t you in -- he
indicated to you that your a n s w e r s seemed to be
d i f f e r e n t from now from back then; correct?
A Yes.
Q And do you agree t h a t some of your a n s w e r s a r e
different?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall telling law enforcement back then

t h a t you actually got home between 9:30 and 10
that n i g h t ?
A No.
Q You don't recall saying that? Do you recall

saying you actually saw Brendan when you came
127
home that night?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And that was on November 7? To law

enforcement?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Thank you.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: N o t h i n g else, Judge.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I have n o t h i n g . Thank
you, Judge.
THE COURT: You may step down.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I do have one more

witness if, uh -- It should be very s h o r t .
THE COURT: Very good. You may call that
witness.
THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
MICHAEL KORNFdJY,
called as a witness herein, having been f i r s t duly

your name and spell your last name f o r the record.
THE WITNESS: It I s , urn, Michael, or M i k e ,
Kornely, K-o-r-n-e-1-y.
DIRECT EXBMXNATION
BY ATTORNEY FRF,MGEN:
Q Mike, what do you do for a living?
128
I
A Uh, I work a s a sales manager for a company out of

Milwaukee, a n d I also do some yard work a s an e x t r a
job.
Q And do you g e n e r a l l y live in the Manitowoc/Two
Rivers area?
A Yes, I live in Francis C r e e k .
Q A r e you familiar with, uh, Brendan Dassey?
A Yes.
Q And how do you know Brendan?
A Urn, Brendan is, uh -- Blaine, he works f o r me
currently, and, uh, Blaine's brother, and Brendan
worked for me for a period of time.
Q And how -- how long have you known Brendan?
A About three-and-a-half years.
Q Would you be able to -- Well, f o r instance,

hypothetically, you would have called him on the
phone, would you be able to recognize his voice?
A Yes.
Q Now, do you know -- do you recall where you were

on October 31, 2005?
A I was in Birmingham, Alabama.
Q On that -- at -- on that night, or at some point

in -- on October 31, 2005, d i d you contact the
Dassey residence?
A Yes, I did.
12 9
A
Q By that I mean did you call t h e m ?
A Yes. I -- I called to t a l k to -- to Blaine to see if
he was going to come to work on the following
weekend, because he hadn't worked, uh, with me the
weeks before -- the t w o weeks before. Urn, s a i d that
he was putting on a roof on one of his uncle's

cottages up n o r t h and it was working with Steven.
Q And do you recall what time it was that you

called?
A It was around 6:00. I t h i n k it probably was about --
between q u a r t e r to six and maybe ten to six. I think
it w a s before six.
Q D i d you speak with Blaine?
A No. I, uh, spoke with Brendan and asked him if
Blaine was there, and, uh, he s a i d , no, t h a t he went
trick or treating. And I kind of was taken aback. I

said, well, he can't be trick or treating, he's 1 7 .
And then he told me t h a t he had taken h i s f r i e n d ,
Jason, uh, two brothers, and they went t r i c k or
treating together.
Q H o w long did the conversation between you and
Brendan take place?
A Somewhere around probably five minutes.
Q And do you recognize that voice on the o t h e r line
as Brendan?
130
A Oh, y e s . Yes.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have nothing else

f o r this witness.
THE COURT: Cross.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
Q Good morning, sir.

A Good morning.
Q How long, R i c k , (sic) had you been in Birmingham,

Alabama?
A I got there on, uh, Monday, and I w a s there until

Thursday.
Q And, um, d i d you call from -- I'm s o r r y . Were

you s t a y i n g , l i k e , at a hotel or something?
A Yes. I was s t a y i n g at the Sheraton. The Marriott
Court Yard.
Q And did you call from t h e hotel phone or did you

have a cell phone or what?
A I don't exactly remember t h a t . I'm quite sure it was
my cell phone.
Q A n d at anytime since, uh, t h e day that you made
that call, did anyone a s k you to check your cell
phone records f o r the exact time of that call?
A Yes, I t h i n k , urn, Brendan's f i r s t a t t o r n e y asked me
if I had a record f o r it.
131
Q And, urn, do you have a record for the time t h a t
you made that call, sir?
A I -- I didn't find that telephone call on my Sprint
record, which means I could have made it through the
hotel operator. Sometimes my phone goes dead at t h e
e n d of t h e day. And I could have made it t h r o u g h t h e

hotel. I -- I honestly wish I could recall. I just
can't.
Q Do you r e c a l l , um, on November 7 of 2005, which

would have been shortly after, urn -- what, seven
days after October 31?
A Urn-hrnm.
Q Where t w o agents did come to your home to talk to

Blaine?
A Yes.
Q And do you recall telling t h o s e a g e n t s that you

t h o u g h t the call may have been a r o u n d 5 : 3 0 ?
A You know, 1 -- 1 -- I don't remember that. That is
possible. I thought it was 5:30, b u t I got back to
t h e hotel, and I made t h e call, and it could have
been between 5:30 and 6:OO.
Q And for that fact, could have been between 5 : 1 5

and 6:15? I -- I'm j u s t a s k i n g you, sir.
A Yes, it could have been, because my day usually ends
sometimes around there, and by the time I get back to
132
the hotel it might be after five.
Q So you -- sometime after -- You know it was
sometime after five, though, is that f a i r to say?
A Yes. Urn, I -- I thought Brendan told me that he left

about 5:10 or something, so I would have already
missed Blaine t h e n . So, you know, because Blaine
wasn't there for me to talk to h i m .
Q So t h e call could have been at 5:15 for a l l

you -- as you recall? Is that fair to say?
A Urn, yeah, it's possible.
Q Okay.
A It is possible.
Q All right. I thank you, sir. Thank you for

coming today.
ATTORNEY GAHN: That's all I have, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
REDIRECT EXAbdINATION
Q I j u s t have one question in follow-up to, urn --

Mr. Gahn asked you about meeting with law
enforcement as to that time frame when you made
t h a t phone c a l l ; correct? You had --

A Yes.
Q Remember t h a t --
A Yes.
Q -- conversation? And you said -- Or t h e question

was asked of you, do you recall telling them it
was 5 : 3 0 ? And you said, maybe?
A Yeah. It seemed closer to six because, you know, I
would end my day probably around five. I -- I -- I

wish I c o u l d r e c a l l and I don't. B u t I thought it
was closer to s i x , because what Brendan had said to
me is, well, Blaine had already left by about ten
a f t e r five or s o , and so this seemed l i k e , you know,
it was a while, like he was gone almost an hour

already.
Q So it was sometime after Blaine had left as f a r

as you recall from the conversation?
A Yes.
Q And do you recall telling law enforcement it was
5 : 3 0 or 5:45? That that was t h e time frame you

gave to them originally?
A It's possible I could have t o l d t h e m t h a t . I -- I

could be off like that.
Q Okay. Thank you, v e r y much.
ATTORNEY GAHN: No, Your Honor.

134
7
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's the last

witness for today that w e have available.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Then w e will
a d j o u r n until Monday morning at 8:30. Ladies and
gentlemen, once again, don't talk about this amongst
yourselves or anything about this case, or to anyone
else. Thank you. Have a nice weekend. We'll see

you Monday.
(Court stands a d j o u r n e d at 11:44 a.m.)
135
)SS.
I, J e n n i f e r K. Hau, Official C o u r t
Reporter for C i r c u i t C o u r t Branch 3 and the S t a t e
of Wisconsin, do h e r e b y certify t h a t I reported
t h e foregoing matter and that the f o r e g o i n g
t r a n s c r i p t has been carefully prepared by m e w i t h
m y c o m p u t e r i z e d s t e n o g r a p h i c notes a s t a k e n by m e
i n machine s h o r t h a n d , and by c o m p u t e r - a s s i s t e d
t r a n s c r i p t i o n t h e r e a f t e r t r a n s c r i b e d , and t h a t it
i s a t r u e and correct t r a n s c r i p t of t h e
proceedings had i n s a i d matter to the best of my
Dated this j / d. day of ,l>fl,chg,n&, 2007.
K. Hau, RPR
Official C o u r t Reporter
136
L.
t 221 [3]3/2480114 103l23

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area [I41 14/19 51/17 5U3 8516 90116 90121 awav 121 10719 1 12/19 body [2] 66111 6716
97/297/398/4101/1115/23120/512016 bold [4] 74/24 74/24 75/2 7515
129/5 B bolt [4] 2512 2516 2617 50116
areas 151 916 75/22 79/23 88/10 8811 1 back [37] 6l9 6/17 714 7/15 7117 7120 7/24 bolt-action [3] 25l2 23/6 50/16
aren't [2] 30112 8519 8/17 9/19 10113 10/17 22/15 22120 23/19 bonfire [7] 1 19/18 119/20 1 19/24 12012
arena [I] 85/22 2911443/2044/10491452!1255/2455/25 120/I1120/15120120
argue 121 56/25 63117 70/1079/779113811881/2381/23115~ book[2] 89L2591117
argument [I] 66/24 116/20118/4118151118/24126/15127115 borderline[2]99/20101/15
Argumentative [I] 12/25 127120 132119 132125 both [6] 7/1947112 52/869/1077/17 1 0 m
around (111 5UllSU13 57111 57115 115123 backed [I] 124116 bottle [4] 5519 55/10 58111 58121
11815 130110 130m 13U17 13205 13416 background 121 82/185/4 bottle's [l] 55110
articulation [I] 8014 backwards [Z] 81/20 81/22 bottom [4] 13115 13/17 lW1267122
~[1[17]4/184/1981199/11911911/21 bag[3]117/1126/3126/10 box [31 1015 1016 29/20
1I123 1317 13D 18/18 18/16 18/17 21/12 22/1 bandaid [2] 6115 6118 boy [I] 23/24
2318 23110 24B =/I3 25/10 2615 26/15 Bannister [I] 6917 BRANCH [2] 1/1 13615
defense 131 63118 63/19 69110 documented [ I ] 94l9
C deficits [ l ] 90115 documents [Z] 76/13 83/19
corroborating [3] 60l23 65l3 7015 defining [ I ] 75116 doing 161 21/13 39/13 46/18 46123 47/20
corroboration [3] 65l7 67/12 67/16 degree 161 64/14 65117 65/21 65/22 85110 47/20
corroborative [2] 67B 67/2 1 85/16 down [27] 618 2511731125 3219331833121
cottages [l] 13017 delayed [ I ] 79/19 3717 37/22 39111 39/19 41/16 61/13 7519
wunsel[6] 4/242/147/251/253/11 103119 delays [ l ] 77/15 9014 100117 100118 103118 106124 11616
Counsel's [ I ] 60l22 demonstrate [ l ] 77/15 116B 11#15 126112 126115 126/23 127A
counselor [3] 71/1472/1472/21 demonstrates [ I ] 79/19 12Sl10 134124
count I71 13111 17/23 22/13 36/17 64D demonstrating [ I ] 93D drawer [2] 41/20 41/22
64/12 66/14 denied [ I ] 61Y3 dresser [3] 4413 447 4418
counted 151 6n 1812 36/22 37118 38/24 deny [ l ] 7017 driveway [ I ] 126'12
counter [3] MI3 4416 44B Department [1] 52/23 drop [2] 10716 107112
COUNTY [2] 111 13612 describe [ I ] 59/19 dropped [ I ] 11711
couple [3] 48/21 52/21 11U25 described 151 2318 25/10 4412 70/1 80122 dropping [2] 126l3 126110
course [22] 5/14 5/17 5/20 7/22 1114 1212 despite [2] 27/12 68/15 drops [3] 10719 118/22 126/24
1313 1414 1418 17B 21/24 22/14 2316 28/21 destroy [ I ] 6911 duly 141 4/18 70119 104115 128117
3 1/19 3614 36/13 38/2241R 4118 71/21 destroyed [I] 68/16
7312 1 destruction 111 67l2 E
court1351 1/11/112/4#54/154/2156/9 detailjl] 66/15 each [4] 27/8 2X/665/13 71/24
62/7 6u2 I62123 63n 63112 63115 64/11 detailed [I] 8616 earlier [6] 43116 59/20 59/22 59/25 I11/24
65l2 65/2 6519 65/25 66/13 66/21 67/13 details [ l ] 5514 115/20
68/11691197316821910~911514121/18 Dete&e[11]5/15/1213/21311515/14 early[1]60/4
13 114 13 1/16 134/24 135D 136l4 136l5 28/20 32118 34l24 38/14 4118 4913 easily [S] 9719 97113 97113 97/24 97/24
136119 determine [8] 8/20 9/12 11/16 20/7 26114 east [ I ] 124l20
Creek [ I ] 12916 58/22 58/25 85/21 ED (11 93116
creeper [4] 2318 2311123/22 23/23 determined [ I ] 44/3 EDELSTEIN [27] 1/21 314 316 4/9 4112 4/22
cri [ I ] 6514 determining [ I ] 86/16 4/25 13/2 2213 3 114 3 118 4213 42/7 47l7
crime[20]8/78/10811245/1246/1847/17 difference[9]9/1824/2225/125/526/17 50/1156/856/1056/136111661/2062/1
47/21 47/25 48/13 53/14 53/19 59/16 6514 51/23 91/12 95l9 95117 62/10 62/20 62P22 62/246315 1 2 X i
M6~W106611668D68/1068/11 different[12]6/2210/115/1792/1695l7 Edition[1]88/6
crimes 111 65111 121l20 1 W l l 122118 122/20 125115 127115 editorialize [1] 1715
Criminal [ I ] 123D 127118 editoriaIly [ I ] 4714
cross 1141 314 3/10 3/15 3/19 4/13 4/24 5115 differently [ I ] 95/14 educated [I] 84/20
84/1584/16101/16113/21113/22131/4 difiicult[l] 3018 education [11] 71/13 7414 7416 74/23 77/18
13115 dificuties [ l ] 92/25 77/20 84128516 85/20 86/19 93/23
cross-examination 191 314 3/10 3/13 3/19 difficulty [l75/14
] educational [q 76/2 8116 8514 86/22 96/17
4/2451/584/16 113122 13115 dinner [2] 12316 12311 1 efficiency [2] 100l20 101n
cross-examining [l] 4/13 direct 171 319 3114 3118 70125 104121 121122 effort [ I ] I315
crossing [I] 4/12 128/U eight [ I ] 99116
cry [ l ] 111114 directing [4] 5H 1 13112 1IV9 3 1114 Eighteen [3] 104124 115/3 115/3
curious [ l ] 12120 direction [2] 9312 9313 eighth [ I ] 81111
currently [3] 103110 104/25 129111 disabiIities [I] W8 Eisenberg [3] 59/19 59/23 6016
cut [lo] 9/20 1111 11/10 43/23 4w9 48/10 disabled [2] 87/2 8716 either [S] 17/17 21/20 46/17 49/19 7419 92/5
5612 60125 6114 6117 disagree [7] 19/12 19119 20115 20118 20123 97/15 98/I
2211122113 element [5j 64/13 63/16 6611 5 68/10 68111
D discern [I] 33/17 elemenb p ] 6514 65/13 68t9
Ba-s-s-e-y [ l ] 104120 disciplines [Z] 9015 9016 Eleven [1] 119113
dad [ I ] 10519 discovered [3] 10l9 54/10 5W12 else 1141 16/14 3215 3315 33B 7516 103114
dark 111 12015 discussed 121 4111 76/23 10516 106116 106118 l O 8 n l 113/20 128l7
DASSEY I241 116 1/23 3113 413 717 discussion [7j 75/24 79/14 85/2 97116 99t22 13 1/2 135l7
I0123 10125 15/23 16/10 38/3 54/10 54/19 99/25 100/14 elsewhere 121 33111 33/19
56/14 71/15 71/18 n/23 73/25 97/24 103/21 discussions 45/24 46/15 46/18 59/24 75/20 emotional 121 11118 1 1 1/12
1W14 104119 12917 129/24 83ff 97/16 emotionrmlly [ I ] 9311 7
Dassey's 111 15/21 dismiss (11 66/13 empty Ill 55/10
date 121 1/10 7918 dismissal 111 64111 end 141 103110 118122 13u6 134/6
dated [4] 74/19 7918 80121 136115 dismissed [ I ] 6812 ended [ I ] 53111
dates [2] 79/9 79110 displeasure [Z] 21/20 22/16 ending [1] 825
day [21] 115 105125 10612 10615 106/IO distinct [2] 65/12 65/13 ends [ I ] 132124
106112 106121 107114 107115 11316 113111 district 1161 7115 71/7 71110 71/23 713 72/15 enforcement [S] 12718 127120 12W4 133/22
115117115~0115/21116/3118/12131/21 72/2273/1073/2176/1580/887/692/16 134/16
13U6 132f24 13416 13M15 9715 97112 97/23 engaged [ I ] 37/2
daydreaming [ I ] 84/11 districts 111 92/17 enough 121 30117 6516
days [Z] 616 132111 disturbed [l] 93117 entered [2] 541269/22
dead [ I ] 1335 dividing [ I ] 91116 entitled [ I ] 4711
deal [2] 63/22 63/24 Division [ I ] 123/2 entrance [ I ] 52/16
dealing [1] 38l3 DNA [I51 16/25 23115 2IV7 30/2 4W7 48115 entrances [ l ] 27t3
debate [Z] 1811 18D 53/1253/1654/955fl556/U57/158/22 entry[~6/1213/1613/1618/2234/24
decide [2] 20111 81/10 6616 6718 environment [ l ] 77/19
defendant [20] 1Y7 1/20 1/22 1/24 4/10 5115 Doctorate [I] 85/11 especially [3] 66/25 86/17 9014
50121 52/22 52/24 53/13 53/17 56/21 64/16 document 1131 76i7 78/19 78/24 7916 80116 essentially [3] 17/19 6516 69110
65/21 6611 66/4 6711168/18 69/23 70/2 80120 8012 1 83/25 8411 34/45 98113 98/21 estimate [ I ] 17/22
defendant's [2j 6719 6812 98/24 evaluated [ l j 71/20
factual [l]7/3 foot [l] 119125
E h i r [14] 1718 26/133 1118 31/223713 39/2foregoing [Z] 13617 136i7
evaluating [I]85/17 42174313 54122 5916 68/251 1918 133/3 forensic 151 2711 4512 1 5213 54/22 59/7
waluation [8l 76/197bl20 7814 78n5 79/10 13319 forensically [2]2311 1 36B
79116 80n4 85118 fairly 111 1515 forensics [I]35/25
evaluations [I]72110 hirness [I] 4014 form [q 63l2 753 7717 73/1682/23 85/24
walustor [1]75/6 tall 121 8lfl94/14 forth [2] 20116 29/14
event [4]16/148117 95/1095/12 FALLXIN[19] 1/153/54/44/7 121'2421125 forty[3] 4214 10619 106111
events [2]4114 105l25 30125 42/1415 46/2550113 50115 56/165916 forty-fwe 131 4 3 4 106/9106111
everybody [2]38/121 11/2 61/226U12 6318 63/146411 found [l9] 11/1911/2012/912/1514/16
evidence 1471 8/15 923 1018 104 10/101516 falls [I]86/19 14/1814/2536/1044/1445/22 47/1952/15
1518 22118 22/22 22/24 23/1929/2 2915 30/2 false [lo]714 7110 18/2018/2030l2 34117 5414 5416 5418 54/1759/2560D5 68/20
30/730183012336l9471847/~647/2453/18 43/10#1544/1896/24 four [14]17/224# 58/12100123 lOIn
54/235511 55/3 58/1459/7601763/1764/12 familiar [9]2414 71115 8014 88/289/795/7 107/13107114 114112 1 14/17121D 12116
6513 65115 65120 65/236611 6612 66/2267/1 9519 1 15119 129l7 12U20 127l3 12714
67146711468/1468/1568/2069/2701470/5 far[7j 29/1531/2064/1299/3 107/9112119 fourth (61 618 13/1681/12101121 101/23
121116 134113 103/IO
evident [l]8/21 fashion [l] 15110 Fox [I] 111 1
ex 111 43113 Fassbender [20]5115 5/21 6/147/191314 fragment [Z]5416 56/22
exact [3]4Xl5 9111 131123 1718 17117 19/1121/20 2215 25/22 27113 fragments [I]5415
exactly [6] 19116 20119 21/1335/1349/22 3 1/2433/1933/21 39/13443'21 4919 49/12 frame [3]7/18133122 134117
131/19 6015 Francis [I]12916
examination [26]314 315 316 319 3/I 0 311 1 fat 111 1 1 l/3 frankly [l)33/13
3114 3/15 3/163/183/193/204/24 50/14 fault 161 1316 37/1437/1737/243816 38/8 free [I]51/19
5 115 5U3 56/1270125 84/1698/10104121 favorable [3J 66/2267/1967/24 FREMGEN [54]1/193/93/11 31143116
113/22125lZ4 128123 131/5133/18 fear 111 5111 3/183/20418 4t9 61/24 63/21 6416 64ff 68/5
examinations [2] 86/1287/13 feasible [2]48/54W5 70114 70/157111 81/25 8U19 82/2083/17
examine 131 10Y7 30/2 3016 February [2]52/1359/12 84113 84/238511 86/139513 95/21 9618 96113
examined 161 4/192311 1 36/18 70E0 104116 February 27 121 52/1359/12 9W 98111 98/2298/23 102/7 1 OW 10 10U17
128118 feet [I]112/25 103114 103120 10415 104/22 11/5 116116
examining 111 4/13 few 151 13/71319 37/185Sff 56/14 12119 121115 122niZ 1214 1/5/23 125125
example [lo]1818 18/1621/2141/1442119 fiber [lj 1l/5 12817 128/11 128124 13 112 133/1913511
49118 55/7 59119 66/1679/24 fibers [2] 14/1214/15 Fremgen's [I] 66124
exampla [Z]5517 5614 field [I]5 1/11 friend [5] 108/13115112 1 1819 123112
Except [2]106119 106120 fifteen [1]62/15 130/18
exchange[6]5/145/20131418/1228/21 figure[1]91/19 front I21 6916 107/7
36/14 final 121 5U21 9712 full [3]54/276/101W17
exclusion [I]54/17 find 1191 l0/2 1114 11/21 11/23 12/203613 fun [2] 1 1 l/2 11 115
excuse [7]36117 59/22 63/2565/226W 44/21 49110 5416 55D 5519 55113 55/22 furniture @I 9/59/7 9/14
98120 101122 55/25 5613 6713 91n 91/413213 further [lo]3318 33121 39/195616 62/3
exhibit[44] 151171611624/1429/2061/17 findings[2] 27115U8 63112 63/1569/2 81/23 125120
7311 7312 73113 73117 76J6 76110 76118 finds [l]69/25
77/2577/257WI 8 80114 80117 80122 8214 fine 121 9815 121124 G
83/1183/1283/148311883/2086/491/4 finger14]5~60/2561/461fl G r + s s [I]70/24
9y2593/994/496/698/1399/21102i25 fingerprint[6]301730/830/1030/1730119 GAFJN[q 111731194/7131/6133115
10311 103/3 10412 116h 11716 117/8118124 31/2 133l21 134123
120/4123/20123P21 124/15 fingerprints [q 16/2530/24 53113 53/17 games [2]109118 11113
exhibits [5]61/1563/9 75114 103/23 10416 5911 garage 1311 14/2323/23 23124 24/5 2411 1
existed [I]54/23 finish [lj 116114 28/1629/223616 39/2039/225412 5413 5415
expect [A 15/422/24 22/2551/5 5214 59/2 fire [13] I0124 55/13 55/1461/36716 68/19 54/1155/855112 55117 56/165716 57/8
6712 68/21117117 12W 120112 122115 12518 57/17S8/4 53/18 12013 124/6124113 124116
experience [I]2419 125113 124119 124120 124124 125D
expert [A 22/20 2313 2315 30110 30119 43/13 firearms [I]24118 gas [I]58/16
4514 firefighters [lj 45/17 gave [2]18/8134118
experts [a 30122 first [27] 4118 28P21 32/204419 4718 SU10 general [lo]8t745PL44M5 46l8 64/1769113
explain [4]1 1/24 12/20 26/19 46/20 59/1264/1465/1765l21 65/2270116 70119 87/1692/2093/1299/14
explec [I]22/25 71/1774/1674/1877/2 79l7 86/2393/13 generally [4]5/1271/21 101117 12914
exples [I]W5 9417 100l2 10013 IOU24 104115 12W17 generate [I]76/22
express [I] 94/15 13 1/24 gentlemen [2]411 13515
expressed [3]21/20W6 28/17 f& [2]2912 2914 gatures [I]78/13
expresses [I]97/6 fwe [I21 3918 3918 4U3 42/410619 10611 I gets [I]4115
expression [I]84B 119/25130/2313311133/3134/6134/10 getting[2]7/787/8
expressionless [I]84/9 fwefoot [l] 11 9/25 given [S] 8/16 1 9 3 24/9 496 45/9 66/25
expressive [I]79/20 flat [2]6/2141/10 811 91/22
expressively [l]77/17 flip [2]3W 34/22 goals [l]7415
extra 121 W/16 129/2 fluids 121 66/966112 goes [7]391164115 48/1951/109511111619
extremely [2]3 1/25 3 1/25 flying [1] 51/10 13Y5
eve 131 75/1978/1383/6 folliclw [2]48/1848/19 gone [I] 134111
follow [4]26114 26/2093l2 133l20 good [7]518 25/1239/136315 128113 13 1fl
F follow-up 13) 26/1426/20 133/20 13118
facial [I]M/9 followed [l] 6/16 gotten [2]1I4/13114115
facie [I]69118 following [2] 39/25 1303 grade [a]81/11 81/1181/12lOlnl 101123
facts [1]91/23 follom [q 4/1919111 70120 104116 128118 103111 103H2 103113
lever-action [3] 2515 2617 50117 means [4] 43/14 101/1 1 1 119 1314
J lie [2] 6122 49/21 meant [3] 20/2 2W3 2013
ju ry... [IS] 58/13 63/25 @/4 67/25 81198W4 lies [I] 6/23 measure 111 8818
lOY411~8116n4117~l118/8119/15 ligbt[3]66/2267/1867D3 medial [2] 51111 51/18
119/U120/1120/1412116121/22124111 limited[6]4811451/1762/186212175/21 meet[3]77/2211013112/l
justice 111 4811 8317 meeting 121 94/12 133/21
line161 6183111 6712296112 101/13 130/24 meetings [I] 9411
K lines 121 7119 32/9 memory [IS] 14124 4911 1 75/21 79/20 79/21
K+r-n-e-I-y [I] 128122 listed [2] 7418 101/24 79/21 79/22 95/1 9514 95l7 95111 95/17
keep 121 94/22 110/16 Liiten [I] 58/7 95/19 95l20 95/22 101112 101/14 114112
Ken [I] 416 IiteraIIy [I] 37113 mention 111 48113
KENNETH [l] 1113 little [IS] 29/20 3318 33/21 36/23 36/25 3717 mentioned [4] 17114 28/22 90114 105116
kept [4] 73/21 76/15 8018 83/20 39119 40/16 7113 9512 95/4 11 1117 11515 mere [I] 43/7
kid [I] 87110 115112 125D mess [I] SX/4
kill [1] 55/24 lived [4] 95/13 96/14 105124 10W2S met [I] 68/1
killed [2] 10124 28/16 lives 131 15/25 1611 16/14 metal 121 15111 15/14
kindiq 41~87/187/587/1995/22117/7 living[3] 105/10105/13 128/25 method (11 4319
130/16 load [I] 30/15 MICHAEL [3] 3117 128/16 128121
kinds [2] 9517 95117 location [2] 8/17 9/13 microphone 121 7113 I 15f5
knew [15] 26/14 27/14 35/25 40I7 40/11 long [13] 40/23 40124 5913 71/6 106t24 middle [I] 36/25
40/1349/2149/2349/2550/2354/2359D 106/25107/1I109114127/1127H3129113 Mib[2] 128121128/25
60120 11112 124/1 130121 13119 mile 111 107110
knife [6] 41114 41/17 41/17 41/18 42/9 51/15 longer [I] 16/18 miles [I] 112/23
knodedge[17]6/196/216/237fl7BW look[f5] 5/18W3Yt947/1875D88/10 Milwaukee[l] 12912
39/21 5111 51112 51118 57/18 57/21 59/13 9114 93114 1121'7 112112 11716 12014 125112 mind [3] 50t7 5 W 50110
61l9 SOB 94l3 136114 125114 125116 minimal [1] 78113
known M 45/23 S5/2 61B 129113 looked [S] 8/12 W20 36l9 44/24 1lu9 minute [2] 27/23 83/15
knows [4] 42/24 43/12 5014 96115 looking [2] 3315 8W minutes [8] 53D 107113 107113 107115
KORNELY [3] 3117 12W16 128122 looks [5] 3715 7716 8 1/19 88/18 117D 109/15 1273 12715 130/23
KRATZ[31] 111331103/154/666/1870~9 lwe[l] 11114 Miranda [l] 63D
8114 81116 81119 8U7 82/10 83/15 84/17 losing 121 110/22 11 1/1 Mishiwt 1191 7115 7116 7119 71/19 71/22
85l3 98/16 98/15 99B 101/25 1O m 1OU16 lost [I] 8311 721272/21 73B 86/24 87111 92123 97/5
103116 IOU8 113123 115n 121119 121124 lot [Id] 11/20 14/18 14/21 34/23 30/3 32/19 97111 97112 97/19 97/23 101/18 1053
121125 125119 12611 127/7 12W8 40~23441254811255/65W5102/12111/14 1I5/23
IUUS 141 318 70116 70/18 70123 111/19 Miihicot's [I] 92/16
L lumiool [1] 10113 misplaced [l] 66/25
lvinr 121 21/22 3415 missed [l] 13316
lab 1151 8/6 8/8 8/10 8/12 1U13 3011 3016 misspelled [I] 75/24
4511246/1846/1847/1747/2148/1354/8 mom [5] 94/22 105/5 105114 118113 126120
59116 machine [l] 136110 moment 111 125120
ladies 121 4/1 13514 Madam [l] 6318 Monday [3] 131/11 13514 13518
language 1131 75110 75/22 77116 78116 7911 main [1I 94/21 months 111 58/12
7913 79/20 79/23 79/25 8W1 8719 90/17 mainstream [I] 101/18 morning [9] 411 4/2 414 511 5/2 6412 13117
93/25 maintain [I] 71/23 131/8 13514
large [I] 8613 maintained [1] 715 most [7] 66/22 67118 67123 6916 74l3 94114
larger [Z] 76/12 7812 1 majority [l] 5919 95120
last [14] 614 18/22 34/24 70E2 74/21 8312 mnha [2] 13/24 37124 mother 141 1612 1614 93125 9414
94/12 97/22 104/18 114/12 114115 118116 making [I] 34/15 mother's [2] 15/22 118/14
128120 13511 man [I] 2411 1 motion [b] 317 62/10 6416 66/19 6812 70/8
later [3] 443 52113 58/12 manager [l] 12911 moved [3] 3122 23/7 61/17
law [9] 1/20 1/22 6819 6914 12718 127DO -0wOC [4] 1/1 115/14 12914 136l2 moving [I] 81/22
12# 133121 134116 ManitowodTwo [I] 12914 Mr 4112715 911666/24
law's [l] 68/23 manufacturer [I] 29/22 Mr. [23] 7ll7/7 54/10 54119 5916 6416 70114
lead 171 7/23 8/14 29124 44/20 46/14 46/14 March [S] 9/20 23/25 2411 1 53/25 110/22 8613 953 95/21 9M8 96/13 98115 9919 l lM5
6014 March 1 [3] 9/20 24/11 53/25 116116 12119 12212 12214 12215 12611 12717
leading [3] 13/22 13/2549119 March 31 [I] 23/25 133/21
learn [3] 5215 52/8 95115 MARK [4] 1/19 3/3 4/84/17 Mr. Dassey 141 7f7 7f754110 54/19
learned [2] 52110 52/13 marked [I31 3/22 514 24/13 72/25 73/2 Mr. Edelstein 111 1W5
learning [ZI 90,195/23 73112 73/17 7616 78118 83112 83/13 83117 M r . FalIon [1] 5916
leave[7] 7 ~ / 1 3 1 0 ~ / ~ 5 ~ 1 0 / 2 1 1 0 / 1 2 1 1 98/12
1~5 Mr. Fremgen [12] 6416 70114 8 M 9513
llU3 11915 Marriott [l] 131115 95/21 96/18 96/13 11615 116116 12119 12U2
led 121 97/14 97/25 Master's [2] 8516 85116 12214
Ieft[l3]85/3110/11111/25118/9119/8 match121 1Y141l117 Mr. Gahn [I] 133/21
120/6124/13124/19125151271413314 matchd[1]12/IO Mr. Kratz 141 98/15 9919 12611 12717
13419 134113 material [4] 69/14 7015 81/54 82111 Mrs. [l] 118/25
leg 111 6617 materials [1] 86/14 Mrs. Wiensch [I] 118/25
lengthy [1] 39/18 math[10] 901690/2190/21911591/69116 m [ 4 ] 71/284/1889/797/3
Leslie [I] 59/19 91/12 91/12 91/14 10218 much [6] 3 1/21 50/23 52/13 52/25 87/9
lev [l] 101122 rnatter[S] 711 111314/1129/1348/2350/24 134/21
l w e l [ l 1 ] 7 4 / 2 2 7 ~ 8 7 t 1 6 1 0 1 / 2 2 1 0 1 ~ 136P7136113 multiple [2] 36/19 3912
101/2410~5102/8103/8103/1~~03/~2m s t b . ~ [ 4 ]1014101610~10/11 multiplying [I] 91/16
levels [I] 90122 maximum [I] 45l7 murderer [1] 4W1
lwer [3] 2515 2617 50/17 meaning [2] 38/16 9313 mutilation [2] 65118 67/1
65/23 66/3 peers [Z] 75/21 83/7
N October [ll] 57/25 80121 81/14 9911 105111 people [6] 38/15 4517 47/2285/10 10115
name[9] 14/1070/2270/22104/18104/18 105/24110/21115~129/20129/23132111 11lI20
118114 11#16 128120 12mO October 1 [1] 81/14 percentile [2] 100112 100122
nature [I] 17/25 October 12 [I] 80121 perform [2] W9 9011 1
nauseam [I] 68/8 October 31 161 57/25 105111 105/24 I10/21 performance [2] 74/23 76/2
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necessary [I] 6518 odds [1] 48118 performs [I] 84/3
need 1141 5118 37D 39/25 4WS 56/16 63110 offense [2] 64/10 64/15 perhaps [2] 97D 115/20
6513 69118 73/14 9111 91/19 lOlnl 102117 offenses [3] 65/12 65/14 65H7 period [3] 109117 1 1 I n 129112
10x21 offer [3] 63115 104/1 10416 permit [I] 82/14
needed [I] W/15 offered [I] 5314 person [6] 1/244/1028/213319 119/17
needs~~77/1777/2077/2291/17102/4 offering[2]311410413 12U15
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Ninety-three [Z] 89115 89/16 101~106/1810W5108/5111/4128/11 picked~2]119/7126/20
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102125 123120 pair [I] 16/17 possible [4] 132119 133110 133112 134119
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121115 parenb [I] 97117 prefaces [I] 39/24
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someone [1]7516
Seventy-eight [I]99/16 sometime [9]119B 12512 12516 125B
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131/13
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specialist [I]54/13
5 specialized 121 77/18W 1 8
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0114 87/990117 93/24
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I 19/171 2 ~ 2 25/2326/15 stare [ l j 84/10
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83/22 103/2 smeam [lj22/19 statemen$ [3]27113 27/2327/24
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suggesting [1] 27/14 9719 101/12 101114 torso [I] 29116
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sustain 131 65L3 66/23 69112 thereafter [3] 25/22 324 13M11 115/13 3115116 115m 115125 11612 130/16
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swear [I] 4115 third [2] 13/15 88/16 truck [I] 5614
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133/4 13417 28/20 28/24 29/19 29123 3012 30/3 3213 3216
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Tadych [l] 105/7 thousands [3] 4711 1 4711 1 47/11 4313 43/24 44/1 44/15 49R 49114 49/25 6019
BRANCH 3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,

TRIAL DAY 7
vs . Case No. 0 6 CF 88
BRENDAN R . DASSEY,
DEFENDANT.

C i r c u i t C o u r t Judge
AP-CES :
KENNETH R . KRATZ
THOMAS FALLON
Special Prosecutor
NORMAN A . GAHN
Special Prosecutor
MARK R . FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
RAYMOND L. EDELSTEIW
Attorney at Law
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
Defendant
Appeared in person.
1 -copy--
O f f i c i a l C o u r t Reporter
I N D E X
WITNESSES PAGE
BRXNDAN DASSEY
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FALLON 46-74
R e d i r e c t Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN 74-78
MICHAEL R I D D U
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY GAHN 97-103
Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY GAHN 105
225 11 I1 11
3
(Reconvened at 8 : 3 4 A.M. Jury o u t )
THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen, Counsel. This is State of Wisconsin vs.
Brendan Dassey, 0 6 CF 88. Appearances, please.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Good morning, Your Honor.

May it please the Court, the State continues in its
appearance by Special Prosecutors Ken Kratz, Norm
Gahn, Tom Fallon.
appears with Attorney Ray Edelstein. The defendant

appears in person.
THE COURT: A r e you s e t to proceed, uh,
Mr. Fremgen?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge, we, uh -- at
this time our first witness will be the defendant,

but we need the Court to proceed with the colloquy
with Mr. Dassey to ensure that, urn, he is making the
decision freely, voluntarily t o testify.

THE COURT: All right. If you'd move t h e
microphone over there. Mr. Dassey, can you hear me?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: Uh, it's my understanding you
wish to t e s t i f y ?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: You understand that you have a
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THE COURT: What is that decision?
THE DEFENDANT: That I want t o .
THE COURT: You want t o t e s t i f y ?
THE DEFENDANT : Yeah.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Uh, l e t m e address
counsel. Mr. Fremgen, have you had s u f f i c i e n t
o p p o r t u n i t y t o t h o r o u g h l y d i s c u s s w i t h y o u r client,
uh, the case and his decision whether or not to

testify?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I can say f o r t h e record

that we have spoken at least a h a l f dozen times,
specifically, on that one issue. Urn, and

recently -- as r e c e n t l y as yesterday.
THE COURT: A r e you convinced that he
understands the implications of him testifying and
not testifying?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I believe so.
THE COURT: A r e you s a t i s f i e d t h a t t h e
decision he announced on t h e record here i s b e i n g
made knowingly, i n t e l l i g e n t l y and voluntarily?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I don't know if I can

answer that question, Judge.
THE COURT: Well, is --

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I believe he's -- I'm
sorry. I believe he knows what h e r s doing and I
6
believe he's voluntarily agreeing to do it.
THE COURT: A l l right. So it's knowingly

and voluntarily being made?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge.
THE COURT: Y o u r r e -- y o u r r e suggesting

that, uh, it is being made by him, and him alone,
in this instance?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That I don't know i f I
can answer either,
THE COURT: A l l right. T h e Court will
find, based on this record, that the, uh, decision
of this d e f e n d a n t to testify is being made, uh,

knowingly and voluntarily. T h e Court has, uh, had a
colloquy with him. The Court, uh, uh, believes that
the defendant has -- has made this decision, realize

it's his alone to make -- before I go through this,
Counsel?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Given Mr. Fremgen's,
THE COURT: Reticence?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- reticence, uh,
perhaps, uh, t h e Court should inquire of
Mr. Dassey if -- if there isn't something else,

or if there, uh, uh, isn't an explanation f o r --
for that. Our concern, as you know, Judge, is to
7
make this complete record. Uh, i f t h e Court i s ,
uh, r e l u c t a n t to do s o , I certainly u n d e r s t a n d
t h a t , but t h a t was o u r -- o u r , urn --
THE COURT: I -- I understand, u h , the
State's concern. Mr. Fremgen has positively averred

t h a t t h e d e c i s i o n i s being made knowingly and
voluntarily. I've gone through the colloquy with --

with M r . Dassey. I -- I don't know at this stage,
uh, absent, uh, g e t t i n g i n t o m a t t e r s t h a t , uh, I
have no b u s i n e s s i n q u i r i n g i n , I c a n be d o i n g .
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: If -- if I can add,
Judge --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- you -- you had asked
i f I t h o u g h t t h i s w a s a n i n t e l l i g e n t decision?
THE COURT: Correct.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And -- and not that
intelligence is d i f f e r e n t , viewed from -- f r o m a
legal s t a n d p o i n t t h a n common sense, I -- I don't
know i f I c a n honestly say t h a t if there -- if -- if
it's being made based upon, urn, reasonable a n d
logical, uh, decision-making.
And the Court also inquired as to
whether Mr. Dassey has talked t o others besides
ourselves.
8
THE COURT: Right,
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: And I'm sure he has. In

fact, I know he has. And, for that reason, I can't
say for certain that the decision i s solely his. I
can say to you -- to this Court, that he has t o l d u s

t h i s i s h i s d e c i s i o n , and h e w i s h e s to pursue
testifying.
THE COURT: Well, let me, then, reask
Mr. Dassey. Would you p u l l the microphone over
there? Mr. Dassey, I've told you that, in the end,

this decision is yours, and yours a l o n e , to make;
correct?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: And you understand that?

THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: Uh, you've t a l k e d to other
people about t h i s o t h e r t h a n y o u r l a w y e r s ?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: Uh, have those -- are you being
forced to do this in any way do you feel?
THE DEFENDANT: No.

THE COURT: You're doing this voluntarily?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: You understand there may be

some r i s k s to your testifying?
9
THE DEFENDANT : Yeah.
THE COURT: And you're willing to take

those r i s k s i n t e s t i f y i n g ?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: N o o n e ' s promised you anything
i n order t o get you to do this?
THE DEFENDANT: No.
THE COURT: Y o u ' r e not threatened i n any
way?
THE DEFENDANT: No.
THE COURT: And t h i s i s -- i n t h e end, it
is y o u r decision; i s that correct?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That -- that's f i n e ,
Judge. Thank you.

THE COURT: Yeah. I don't know where else
w e c a n go here. So, let's, uh -- we'll g e t the j u r y
in a n d let's proceed.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: T h e r e f s one -- one
o t h e r thing, Judge. The, uh -- a s l o n g a s t h e
j u r y i s o u t , I had promised the C o u r t and, uh,
Madam Clerk that, uh, t h e r e was a videotape clip

of an answering machine t h a t I -- t h a t I t h i n k
was on t h e first day o f t e s t i m o n y , t h a t w e would
have a copy of that made and m a r k e d t o make, uh,
10
part of t h e record. Over the weekend, we've had
an opportunity to make a copy of that, and I j u s t
wanted to complete the record by providing a copy
of that, uh, uh, clip as I had promised early on.
THE COURT: Had we previously marked it as
an e x h i b i t ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: No.
THE CLERK: No.

THE COURT: All right. So this will be
Exhibit 2 2 5 ?
THE CLERK: Yes.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's all we have,
Judge. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Specifically, it's
an exhibit of -- it's a CD of a -- a --
THE CLERK: It's a CD of the answering
machine --
THE COURT: All s i g h t .
THE CLERK: -- clip.
THE COURT: All right. We can bring the

j u r y in, then.
THE CLERK: So that's received a s --
THE COURT: Yeah.
( J u r y in at 8 : 4 2 a.m.)
THE COURT: Morning ladies and gentlemen.
11
B e seated. Uh, you may proceed.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, at this time
we'll call Brendan Dassey.
THE CLERK: Please raise y o u r right
hand.
BRENDAN DASSEY,
c a l l e d as a witness h e r e i n , having been f i r s t d u l y
your name a n d spell your last name f o r t h e record.
THE WITNESS: Brendan Dassey, D-a-s-s-e-y.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q Morning, Brendan.
A Morning.
Q H o w old are you, Brendan?
A Seventeen.
Q Where were you living on October 31, 2 0 0 5 ?
A With my mom.
Q Where, exactly, was that l o c a t e d ?

A At 12930-A Avery Road.
Q What c i t y is that in?

A T w o Rivers.
Q And how long have you lived at that address?

A S i x or seven y e a r s .
12
Q Now, t h e r e are o t h e r s that live around you; is
that right?
A Yes.
Q Is this a l l family?
A Yes.
Q Who -- who l i v e d -- w e l l , who all lived in that

g e n e r a l area?
A M e , my family, Steven, Chuckie, my grandma and
grandpa --
Q Who ' s C h u c k i e ?
A One of my uncles.
Q Okay. So it was all family that lived in that

area?
A Yes.
Q Was it adjacent to some property? A business?
A Yes.
Q What business was t h a t ?

A The Avery Auto Salvage.
Q Okay. Now you said t h a t Steven, that's y o u r
uncle?
A Yes.
Q And he lived where, exactly, i n r e l a t i o n t o your

house?
A Next d o o r .
Q About how far next -- i s next door f r o m y o u r
13
house?
A Few hundred -- hundred or t w o hundred o r three
hundred yards away.
Q Do you know yards o r feet? Do you know the

d i f f e r e n c e between the two?
A Not really.
Q Okay. Was it farther than a football f i e l d away
from you?
A No.
Q So l e s s than a football f i e l d away from you?

A Yeah.
Q Now, who else l i v e d i n the h o u s e w i t h you and
y o u r mom?
A Me, m y b r o t h e r , my mom.
Q You said your b r o t h e r o r brothers?

A All t h r e e of them.
Q Okay. And who -- who a r e t h e y ? What are t h e

names ?
A Bobby, B r i a n and B l a i n e .
Q So y o u r mom and t h e f o u r brothers a l l l i v e d
there?
A Yes.
Q And how o l d i s Blaine?

A Ten months o l d e r than me.
Q In r e l a -- in the house, in relation to where you
14
slept, where did he sleep?
A In the same room.
Q You guys s h a r e d a room?

A Yes.
Q What a b o u t Bobby? H o w o l d is Bobby?
A T h r e e years o l d e r .
Q And did he also have a bedroom?
A Yes.
Q D i d he share w i t h anyone?
A No.
Q And -- and you s a i d B r i a n also lived t h e r e ?

A Yes.
Q And -- and where d i d h e -- uh, how old i s B r i a n ?

A Four years young -- older.
Q So you're the youngest?

A Yes.
Q On October 31, 2005, were you a t t e n d i n g s c h o o l ?

A Yes.
Q And where d i d you g o to?

A Mishicot High School.
Q What level grade were you in?

A At t h e t i m e ?
Q Yes.
A Tenth.
Q Now, do you know what t h e d i f f e r e n c e between
15
mainstream and nonmainstream classes is?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Were you in the mainstream classes at

Mishicot or nonmainstream?
A In both.
Q Okay. So a little -- a r e some of them

nonmainstream?
A Yeah.
Q It's also -- is it a l s o sometimes referred to as

"special education" class?
A Yes.
Q Okay. What k i n d of grades did you receive when
you were in s c h o o l ?
A Usually C ' s , D ' s and F ' s .
Q Did you belong to any clubs at school?

A No.
Q Any extracurricular activities at school?
A No.
Q D i d you work while you were going to school?
A Can you repeat that?
Q Did you work while you were going to school?
A No.
Q So a f t e r school, what would you normally do?

A Usually p l a y video games.
Q Where at?
16
A At home.
Q So on October 31, 2005, was it a normal day for

you?
A Yes.
Q And by "normal", a b o u t what time would you g e t

home -- g e t home from the school bus?
A Three forty-five.
Q And you did on that day as w e l l ?
A Yes.
Q Was anyone else with you on the bus that day?
A Just B l a i n e .
Q Is that normal, you and B l a i n e take t h e bus

together?
A Yes.
Q Where does it drop you off at the, uh, urn -- does

it drop you o f f at your house?
A No.
Q Where does it d r o p you off?

A By o u r mail boxes.
Q Okay. About how f a r away is that from your
house?
A About a q u a r t e r mile.
Q H o w long does it take you to g e t from where the
bus drops you o f f to get to your house?
A Well, if you walk, it t a k e s five minutes, b u t if you
17
r u n , it probably t a k e s you t w o .
Q Do you normally r u n home from the bus?

A Sometimes.
Q On O c t o b e r 31, 2005, did you r u n o r w a l k home?

A I d o n ' t recall.
Q Now, did you go directly home from g e t t i n g o f f
the bus that day?
A Yes.
Q Did you see anyone when you were w a l k i n g down t h e

bus -- down to -- from t h e bus s t o p to your
house?
A No.
Q O t h e r t h a n Blaine; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q What did you do when you g o t home t h a t day?

A I played video games.
Q Do you know what B l a i n e w a s doing?

A He was on the phone.
Q Was that something you t a l k e d about beforehand?

A Yes.
Q Why -- why would that t o p i c of conversation come
up while you were walking from t h e bus stop?
A Because Blaine wanted to u s e t h e phone, a n d I wanted
to go on the computer.
Q Did you have one connection in the house?
18
A Yes.
a So if someone's on the phone, you can't be on the

computer?
A Yes.
Q Do you know why B l a i n e needed to use the phone?
A To c a l l his friend.
Q Do you know why?

A To go -- to see if he was going trick or treating.
Q So something you guys talked about?

A Yes.
Q You didn't go -- want to go t r i c k o r treating
that n i g h t ?
A I was d e c i d i n g if I wanted to.
Q So, now, you were at home playing video games.
You said this is normal for you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what v i d e o game you were p l a y i n g ?

A I believe it was American Chopper.
Q H o w do you recall or how -- why would you think
that that's the game you were p l a y i n g ?
A Because some of t h e games that we have now are too
new.
Q Okay. So that was not a new game at that time?

A No.
Q H o w long were you p l a y i n g video games a f t e r you
19
got off the bus at 3 : 4 5 ?
A About two hours.
Q What d i d you do a f t e r you w e r e done p l a y i n g video

games?
A I ate some food.
Q Okay. D i d you make it y o u r s e l f ?
A Yes.
Q Where d i d you go t o make food for y o u r s e l f ?

A In the k i t c h e n .
Q How f a r from your bedroom is that?
A Twenty feet.
Q Do you know what t i m e i t w a s when you w e n t t o

make food f o r yourself?
A Around 5:OO.
Q How do you know it was around f i v e when you went
t o the k i t c h e n ?
A Because I looked on the -- the oven for t h e t i m e .
Q Okay. Was anyone else i n t h e k i t c h e n a t t h a t
time?
A N o t that I recall.
Q Any time while you were e a t i n g ?
A J u s t Blaine.
Q Okay. And -- and, uh, what w a s B l a i n e doing?

A H e w a s i n the k i t c h e n h o l d i n g h i s d u f f e l bag.
Q Was h e going somewhere?
20
A Yeah.
Q Where was he going?

A T r i c k or treating.
Q And this is with the same person he talked to on

the phone?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what time he left?

A Around 5:20.
Q So when you say you thought it was 5:00, it was

c e r t a i n l y sometime before Blaine left?
A Yes.
Q Was anyone else home at that time?

A Just my mom.
Q And -- and do -- do you know when -- t h e time

your mom got home?
A Around f i v e .
Q D i d you see her come home?
A No.
Q How do you know it was a r o u n d five?

A Because, usually, she keeps her door shut for her
bed -- to her bedroom.
Q Okay. But how would you know, then, it was
around f i v e when s h e g o t home?
A She usually comes home from work at that time.
Q There was no reason for you to -- well, strike
21
that. T h e , urn -- s o she normally comes home at
five?
A Yes.
Q Did you speak with her at all bef -- after -- or

while you were e a t i n g supper?
A No.
Q Okay. What d i d you do after you were done
eating?
A I w e n t into my m o m ' s room and t a l k e d t o her a b o u t --

that she was -- I asked h e r -- or she told me that
she was going with Scott to the hospital to see his
mom.
Q And who's S c o t t ?
A My mom's fiance.
Q D i d you know ahead of time t h a t t h a t might be
something s h e was doing that evening?
A No.
Q Okay. D i d you just learn -- t h i s w a s t h e f i r s t
t i m e you heard i t ?
A Yes.
Q Did you see her leave?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what time that was?

A A r o u n d 5:30.
Q And was it before or a f t e r Blaine left?
22
A After.
Q Was it shortly after or long time a f t e r Blaine

left?
A Shortly.
Q So is that why you t h i n k it was about 5:30?

A Yeah.
Q When, urn -- when your mom left, did she -- did

you see if she drove o f f in h e r c a r ?
A No.
Q Did you see how she l e f t ? How she left to g o up

to Green Bay?
A Yeah.
Q And -- and how did that happen?
A She got into Scott's t r u c k and they left.
Q So you saw Scott's truck out there?

A Yes.
Q Now, d i d you see S c o t t ?

A No.
Q So you're assuming he was driving?

A Yeah.
Q Okay. During the time that you a n d B l a i n e had

been home after getting o f f the bus at 3:45, did
you ever leave t h e house?
A Can you repeat that?
Q A f t e r you and B l a i n e g o t o f f the b u s at 3 ~ 4 5 , and
23
before y o u r mom left, excuse me, did you leave
the house?
A No.
Q D i d you ever see Blaine leave t h e house?
A J u s t at 5 or around 5:20.
Q So when he left to g o meet his friend was the

first time you saw him leave?
A Yes.
Q What d i d you do -- w e l l , f i r s t of a l l , i s anyone
left at t h e house, now, after your mom leaves?

A No.
Q D o you know where Bobby i s ?
A No.
Q D i d you go i n his room to check and see if he was
i n there?
A No.
Q What d i d you do after your mom left at 5 : 3 0 ?
A Watched TV.
Q And where do you watch T -- do you w a t c h TV in

your room?
A In the living room.
Q Do you know how long you watched TV?

A Until a r o u n d 6 : 0 0 when I got a phone call.
Q Who -- who called?

A Mike Kornely.
24
Q Who's M i k e Kornely?
A B l a i n e ' s boss.
Q Do you recognize his voice when he calls?

A Yes.
Q Do you know Mike?

A Yes.
Q Why -- how do you know M i k e ?
A I used to work f o r him.
Q D i d he c a l l for you?
A No.
Q Who d i d he call f o r ?
A For B l a i n e .
Q D i d you talk to him f o r very long?
A No.
Q And how long d i d you t a l k t o M i k e ?

A F i v e t o t e n minutes.
Q Do you know f o r c e r t a i n it was 6 : 0 0 or a r o u n d

6 : 0 0 h e called?
A Yeah.
Q A n d how do you know that f o r certain?
A Because he called a f t e r my mom left.
Q So sometime after 5 : 3 0 he called?

A Yes.
Q Okay. And you watched TV for awhile before he

called?
25
A Yes.
Q So, you're making a -- would it be fair to say

y o u 7 r e j u s t k i n d of estimating what t i m e he
called?
ATTORNEY FALLON: O b j e c t i o n , leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
ATTORNEY FALLON: At this point I'd ask
for a more question and answer format.
THE COURT: I t h i n k these a r e fair
questions. G o ahead.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) D i d you receive a n y other
calls a f t e r M i k e Kornely called at around 6 : 0 0 ?

A No.
Q What d i d you do after you got o f f the phone w i t h

Mike?
A I watched TV.
Q And how long did you watch TV a f t e r you g o t off
the phone w i t h M i k e ?
A Until I got another phone call at around 7 .
Q Okay. And who called you a r o u n d 7 ?

A Steven.
Q Who's Steven?
A My uncle.
Q Is it -- that's Steven Avery?

A Yeah.
26
Q Okay. And the one who l i v e s n e a r -- n e x t d o o r ?
A Yeah.
Q What d i d Steven call you a b o u t ?

A He a s k e d me if I wanted to come over to the b o n f i r e .
Q Now, d i d you look o u t the window and see if there

was a b o n f i r e ?
A No.
Q What d i d you say to Steven?
A That I would be over in a l i t t l e b i t .
Q So what d i d you do? Did you have the phone t h e n ?

A Yeah.
Q What did you do then?

A I changed my clothes o u t of my s c h o o l clothes.
Q Why did you get changed?

A Because, u s u a l l y , I don't l i k e , uh -- I wear
different c l o t h e s when I go out -- well, I was

w e a r i n g shorts and a short-sleeve that day.
Q What was the weather l i k e that night?

A Cold.
Q So what did you change i n t o ?
A P a n t s and a -- a shirt.
Q What -- what k i n d of p a n t s ?
A Jeans.
Q Now, you've been, o b v i o u s l y , s i t t i n g t h r o u g h t h i s

trial. There were a p a i r of jeans. I believe
27
it's Exhibit No. 58. Do you recall s e e i n g that?
A Yes.
Q Those w e r e t h e j e a n s you were wearing?

A Yes.
Q Okay. So did you go r i g h t over to your uncle's,

then, after you got o f f the phone?
A No.
Q What did you do?

A I changed into that c l o t h e s , and, t h e n , he called
a g a i n ten -- about t e n minutes l a t e r .
Q Why -- why did he call again?

A To see if 1 changed my mind.
Q What d i d you say?

A That I was on my way.
Q So what did you do next, Brendan?

A I walked over t h e r e .
Q Over where?
A Over by Steven.
Q Where, exactly, did you go over when you left

your house at a r o u n d 7-ish?
A To t h e f i r e p i t .
Q T o a f i r e pit?
A Yeah.
Q Okay. Where's the fire pit located at Steven's

house?
28
A Behind his garage.
Q Did you see the f i r e going?

A Yes.
Q Could you describe what it looked l i k e ?
A It was two f e e t high.
Q Have you seen f i r e s back t h e r e b e f o r e ?

A Yes.
Q How o f t e n have you s e e n f i r e s ? D o you know?

A N o t that I r e c a l l .
Q More t h a n once?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Did it look l i k e it was normal size f i r e ?
A Yes.
Q Did you see a n y t h i n g on t h e f i r e ?

A J u s t some t i r e s and some b r a n c h e s .
Q So a b o u t how c l o s e d i d you g e t to the fire?

A Ten, f i f t e e n feet.
Q Where was Steven when you g o t to the f i r e ?
A S t a n d i n g , like, by t h e g o l f cart.
Q Okay. And where was the g o l f cart by t h e f i r e ?
A About 15 feet away from i t .
Q A l l right. What d i d you do when you g o t down t o

the fire?
A I asked h i m w h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o do, and he t o l d m e
that he wanted to p i c k up the yard, a n d we drove
29
around in the golf cart a n d p i c k e d up s t u f f .
Q Okay. What kind of stuff did you pick up?

A Wood, tires, an old cabinet and the van seat.
Q Now, is this stuff that's just lying around your

yard?
A Yes.
Q And -- and by -- I guess what -- to clarify, was

it your yard or Steven's yard?
A Both.
Q Now, we go back to the wood. Do you recall where

the wood was on your yard? Where it was?
A All o v e r .
Q Why -- do -- do you know why there was wood a l l

over your yard?
A Because it was, uh, leftovers from building our
garage.
Q Leftovers from?
A Building our garage.
Q What -- what k i n d of wood?

A Timber. Whatever.
Q Timber? Would use to frame the garage you mean?

A Yeah.
Q Okay. You said an old cabinet?

A Yeah.
Q Where was that?
30
A Maybe a hundred feet away from the -- our garage.
Q And -- and some o l d tires you said?

A Yes.
Q Okay. Where were t h e t i r e s when you -- when you

found them?
A In t h e same p l a c e as the cabinet.
Q So were most o f t h e s e t h i n g s on your land?

A Yes.
Q Okay. I'm sorry, did you mention a van s e a t ,
too?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Where was that?

A On t h e side of our garage.
Q Do you know why it was there?

A Just that Steven got it f o r -- because we couldn't
find one of the s e a t s f o r t h e van.
Q The van, meaning t h a t maroon van, that was out in

front o f your house?
A Yes.
Q Okay. What did you do w i t h the items as you
c o l l e c t e d them?
A We p u t them in t h e golf -- t h e back of t h e golf cart.
Q A n d what did you do with them a f t e r that?
A When t h e back of the golf cart got full, we drove it
to the f i r e .
31
Q Did you throw them on the fire?
A Some of it.
Q What did you do with t h e r e s t ?

A Piled it -- or p l a n t e d it -- piled it right by t h e
fire.
Q How many t r i p s did you take in t h e g o l f cart
collecting debris from your yard?
A Around four.
Q And how long did it take you to do that? Collect

the debris i n your yard?
A About 4 5 minutes.
Q And after that, what did you do?
A Went into t h e garage. He -- Steven asked me t o help

h i m c l e a n up something in the garage on the f l o o r .
Q Okay. Now, have you been i n the garage before?

A Yes.
Q B a d you ever w o r k e d w i t h Steven before in the
garage?
A Yes.
Q Was it unusual f o r h i m to ask you to help you

clean something out of the garage?
A Not really.
Q What d i d that, uh -- you said it -- something to

clean up. What did the -- what was the
something? Do you know?
32
A No.
Q What d i d it look like?
A Looked like some fluid from a car.
Q So what d i d you do to clean up? Or how did you

c l e a n up the -- the mess on t h e floor?
A We u s e d g a s , p a i n t thinner and bleach with, uh, old
clothes that me and my brothers don't fit in.
Q Okay. Well, let me ask you, was it a -- a large
spill?
A About three feet by three feet.
Q And did you pour gasoline on it?
A No.
Q So you were -- what -- what d i d you do? I f you
weren't pouring t h e gasoline, w h a t were you doing
t o h e l p clean up?
A I w a s l o o k i n g t h r o u g h the bag to f i n d s t u f f to c l e a n
it up with.
Q Bag of what?
A Bag of t h e clothes.
Q And did you c l e a n it up w i t h the -- something

from t h e bag of o l d clothes?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And as you d i d that, what d i d you do w i t h

the rags? D i d you j u s t wash t h e m out?
A What do you mean?
33
Q When you c l e a n e d up with t h e o l d clothes, what
did you do with them as they got d i r t y ?

A We picked them up and we t h r e w them on the f i r e .
Q Okay. Now, you s a i d t h a t you used t h r e e i t e m s t o
t r y to clean up the -- the mess on the floor?
A Yes.
Q And d i d you ever p o u r a n y t h i n g on -- on the mess?
A No.
Q Okay. What was -- what was t h e second i t e m t h a t

Steven u s e d ?
A Paint thinner.
Q A n d d i d t h a t c l e a n up t h e mess?
A A little b i t .
Q Same thing? You used r a g s , then, t o c l e a n up?
A Yes.
Q How would you -- how did you do that? Would --

d i d you g e t down on y o u r hands and knees? Can
you explain how you did that?
A We would j u s t throw it on t h e floor and w e used our
feet .
Q And, then, you would do what with them?

A Move them around.
Q And, then, after they -- what did you do w i t h
them after they w e r e d i r t y ?
A Picked them up and threw them on t h e f i r e .
34
Q And how did you pick them up?
A By o u r f i n g e r s .
Q The -- the bleach, that -- was that last?

A Yeah.
Q Where d i d Steven get the bleach?

A From t h e house.
Q D i d you go in w i t h him?
A No.
Q Did you ever go in the house that night?
A Not that I recall.
Q His house?
A No.
Q Do you know where Steven keeps his bleach?

A U s u a l l y in the bathroom.
Q And how do you know that?
A Because I w a s in the bathroom a few times and I s e e n
it.
Q Can you estimate, in the past, how many times

you'd been i n the bathroom?
A Twenty to twenty-five.
Q So you're familiar with his house a little b i t ?

A Yes.
Q Did you ever ask Steven what it was that was on

the f l o o r ?
A No.
35
Q Now, do you recall -- or do you recall, at some
point, from February 2 7 , o r on, 2 0 0 6 , s p e a k i n g t o
Investigators Wiegert or Fassbender?
A Yes.
Q And -- a n d you recognize them; right?
A Yeah.
Q They're here in c o u r t ?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And -- and you spoke to them a couple

times?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell them what you saw on the floor?

A Yes.
Q What did you t e l l them?

A That it could have been blood.
Q What did you tell them the first time they asked
you what it was on the f l o o r ?
A I can't remember.
Q How l o n g did it t a k e you to clean up what was on
t h e floor?
A F i f t e e n minutes.
Q Now, d i d anything happen to your clothes c l e a n i n g
up the -- the mess on the floor?
A Not that I noticed right away.
Q What d i d you n o t i c e l a t e r ?
36
A That there was bleach stains on them.
Q B l e a c h on -- on what?
A The pants.
Q Okay. Did you ever wear t h o s e p a n t s a g a i n ?

A Not t h a t I remember.
Q What did you do with them?
A I washed them that n i g h t and j u s t p u t them i n my
dresser.
Q So, after you finished cleaning up, you s a i d it

took about 15 minutes?
A Yes.
Q What d i d you do then?

A We went back outside and we put some o f the -- more
of the stuff that we picked up from the y a r d .
Q How close to the f i r e d i d you g e t when you were

throwing more s t u f f onto it?
A About f i v e f e e t .
Q Did you, y o u r s e l f , get any phone calls while you

were out there?
A N o t that I t a l k e d t o .
Q Did t h a t -- so someone call you?

A My mom called Steven.
Q But you didn't talk to her?

A No.
Q Do you know what time that was?
37
A Not that I r e c a l l .
Q Did he tell you what she said to -- to him?

A Yeah.
Q W a s Steven outside with you the whole time

watching the f i r e ?
A Yes.
Q O t h e r than going in to get the bleach, did he

ever go inside?
A No.
Q So, now, y o u ' r e watching t h e f i r e f o r a w h i l e ;

right?
A Yes.
Q What a r e you doing?

A I o n l y c a n r e c a l l that Steven was t a l k i n g to me about
a phone call that he g o t from J o d i .
Q Okay. Do you recall a n y other conversations you

had?
A Not t h a t I recall.
Q D i d you -- but you were t a l k i n g ?

A Yes.
Q Do you know how long you were out there waiting

and -- or, excuse m e , talking and w a t c h i n g t h e
fire?
A No.
Q About what time did you g o home?
38
Around t e n .
Do you recall -- and, a g a i n , I -- maybe I asked
you this. I'm sorry. Did -- I asked you what
time you received the call from y o u r mom?
Yeah.
D i d you know what time that was?
No.
Okay. When you g o t home, was anyone else home?
N o t that I recall.
Did you see any brothers?
No.
Did you talk t o y o u r mom at a l l ?
Yeah.
When was that?
About 1 0 : 2 0 .
Was she home then?
No.
H o w d i d you talk to h e r ?
She called on the h o u s e phone.
What were you doing when she called?

Sitting on the couch.
What time did you go to bed?
A f t e r I had got done talking to my mom.
Now, following October 31, 2005, did you lose any

weight?
A Yes.
Q H o w much did you l o s e ?
A Five, t e n pounds.
Q Were you d o i n g this on p u r p o s e ? Is it --

A No.
Q You weren't t r y i n g to lose weight?

A Well, I was trying to.
Q Okay. Why were you trying to l o s e w e i g h t ?
A Because p e o p l e were c a l l i n g me fat and because I
thought t h a t my f i r s t g i r l f r i e n d broke up m e -- with
me because of my w e i g h t .
Q You mean f i r s t ever o r --

A Yeah.
Q Prior t o O c t o b e r , o r -- w e l l , let me a s k -- ac --
actually, ask you it this w a y . Have you ever
seen Teresa Halbach b e f o r e ?
A No.
Q NOW, you, o b v i o u s l y , know that name; correct?

A Yes.
Q When was the f i r s t time that you recall hearing
the name or seeing her picture?

A When she w a s reported m i s s i n g .
Q When w a s that? Do you recall?

A N o t that I remember.
Q And how did you come about hearing about h e r
40
b e i n g missing?
A On that d a y , my mom called. She told me to turn on
t h e news.
Q So you watched TV?

A Yes.
Q Now, at some point your Uncle Steven is arrested;

correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you watch any TV accounts about that?
A Not that I remember.
Q Did you ever see Teresa Halbach alive on
October 31, 2 0 0 5 ?
A No.
Q Did you ever see her body that night?
A No.
Q Now, you spoke with Investigators Wiegert and

Investigator Fassbender; c o r r e c t ?
A Yes.
Q And you were in c o u r t f o r the video as well;
correct?
A Yes.
Q Obviously, that's you on the video; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q Do you realize how s e r i o u s this charge is?

A Yes.
41
Q Why d i d you tell those two investigators that you
participated in killing and -- and raping Teresa
Halbach?
A I don't know.
Q You have no idea why you would say that?

A No.
Q Okay. Brendan, I want to talk about t h a t video a
little b i t with you, okay?
A Okay.
Q You -- you know it was being videotaped t h a t day?
A Yes.
Q And -- and the officers explained to you your

rights; is that right?
A Yes.
Q D i d you understand them?
A Yes.
Q When they -- you first t a l k e d to t h e o f f i c e r s

a b o u t Teresa Halbach, d i d you immediately tell
them that you had -- you were there a n d
participated killing and r a p i n g h e r ?
A No.
Q In y o u r mind, Brendan, do you feel as if t h e r e

were promises made to you by the o f f i c e r s ?
A Sort of.
Q What do you mean by that?
42
That if I told the truth, that I won't go away for
life.
Did you tell the truth?

No.
What o t h e r promises do you think -- i n your mind,
what other promises were made to you?
That's all I recall.
There were times that they wanted to talk to you
about a gun; r i g h t ?
Yes.
And d i d you ever admit to using the gun?
No.
Why didn't you admit to that?
Because I don't l i k e guns.
Was that different than it -- when you admitted
to what y o u ' r e saying you didnlt do?
Yes.
Why is that? Why do you believe that's
different?
I don't know.
When you were being, urn, questioned by the
officer, the two investigators, did they ever
tell you that they were telling you the truth

about things?
D i d I feel like that?

Q No. D i d they? D i d they tell you that?
A No.
Q D i d they ever say they were lying about anything?
A Did they s a y I was lying?
Q No. Did they say they were lying to you?
A No.
Q You don't know what they were telling you was

true or n o t ; correct?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Objection, leading, at
this point.
THE COURT: Under 906.11 ( 3 ) , some leading

questions are permissible, mainly foundational
questions. We're now getting into some evidentiary
areas, so, I'm going to sustain the objection.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's f i n e . I was
sense -- sense -- essentially using that to try to
lead up to this question, which will be a little
more open-ended.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) If you didn't know that

they're lying to you, or telling you the t r u t h ,
Brendan, why d i d you answer t h e questions to them
the way you did?

A I don't know.
Q Do you have any explanation for admitting to

this?
44
A No.
Q How many times had you t a l k e d to t h e o f f i c e r s
before March l?
A Twice.
Q And, when -- when did those two times occur?

A In November of 2005.
Q How many times i n November?

A Twice.
Q Okay. What about -- anytime between November,

2005, and March 1, 2006?
A To March?
Q Between those two dates, did you t a l k t o t h e

investigators? Officers -- Investigators Wiegert
or Fassbender?
A Yes.
Q And how many times did you talk to them between
those two dates?

A Once in February and -- or, there was three times, on
February 27, and one on February -- o r March 1.
Q So where -- where w e r e the three times in
February? Where d i d those occur?
A One at school, one in Two Rivers and one, I believe,

i t w a s the F i r e Department i n M i s h i c o t .
Q What happened a f t e r they spoke to you on

February 2 7 ? D i d they arrest you?
45
A No.
Q What happened to you? Where d i d you go?

A They put us up in Fox Hills Resort.
Q Okay. How -- how -- how long were you up there?
A We o n l y stayed up t h e r e f o r that night.
Q Which n i g h t ? What's t h e date of t h a t ?

A F e b r u a r y 7 -- 2 7 .
Q So where d i d you go on February 2 8 ?

A Home.
Q Where d i d you sleep on February 2 8 ?
A At home.
Q Where d i d you go on March l?

A Went to school.
Q And a f t e r that?
A The investigators t a l k e d to me and b r o u g h t me to --
first they b r o u g h t me to my house to get the p a n t s ,
and they b r o u g h t me to Manitowoc.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have nothing else,
Judge.
THE COURT: Cross.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY FALLON:
Q Mr. Dassey, I have a few questions for you; all

right?
46
A Okay.
Q First, let me a s k this: How long does it take

you to walk from the trailer, where you were
l i v i n g w i t h your mom and your b r o t h e r s , t o your
Uncle Steve Avery's trailer?
A Around a m i n u t e or t w o .
Q A l l right. You like t o p l a y v i d e o games; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q As a matter of fact, when you g e t done w i t h

school, you would l i k e t o design video games?
A Yes.
Q You really enjoy working w i t h them?

A Yes.
Q And you're pretty good w i t h them?
A Yes.
Q All right. And, a t s c h o o l , you have just two

special classes; right?
A I don't -- 1 d o n ' t know.
Q Well, you said you had both, urn, mainstream and
some s p e c i a l classes?
A Yes, b u t I d o n ' t know t h e names of t h e --

Q How many special classes did you have? Two;
right?
A That I recall, yeah.
Q Okay. Otherwise, you're in with the r e s t of t h e
47
i
r e g u l a r students; right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Now, let me show you something. Exhibit

58. Do you recognize these?
A Yes.
Q All sight. These a r e the blue j e a n s that you

were w e a r i n g on the night of October 31?
A Yes.
Q All right. And these a r e the ones that you've

just told your attorney that, on March 1, you
went with Special Agent Fassbender to pick these
up on your w a y to the Sheriff's Department?
A Yes.
Q Okay. These are the pants?

A Yes.
Q All right. You're telling us you washed them

that night?
A Yes.
Q D i d you wash anything else t h a t night?
A N o t that I recall.
Q Just those pants?

A Yes.
Q All right. Now, you j u s t told us that you were

cleaning up the floor in the garage?
A Yes.
48
Q But you didn't get on your hands and knees to
clean the f l o o r ?
A No.
Q Okay. In o t h e r words, you just put whatever

cleaner down and you used your feet t o mop up the
stuff with t h e o l d clothes?
A Yes.
Q Is that r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q Okay. You're sure?

A Yes.
Q Okay. And you j u s t told u s that t h e pants didn't

seem to g e t dirty? You didn't n o t i c e them being
dirty?
A Yeah.
Q And you had j u s t p u t them on before you went over

there?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Where did you get them from b e f o r e -- when

you changed your clothes?
A In my dresser.
Q In your dresser drawer?

A Yes.
Q Were they c l e a n , then, when you p u t them on?

A Yes.
49
Q All r i g h t . If they were clean when you put them
on, and you didn't notice them g e t t i n g d i r t y , and
you never got on your hands and knees, why did
you wash them?
A Because I u s u a l l y do that after a while.
Q You usually wash your pants after wearing them

for two hours?
A Well, I usually wash pants for school e v e r y day
almost.
Q You do laundry every night?

A Yes.
Q Mr. Dassey, you went over to your Uncle Steven's

house at some point a f t e r s c h o o l ?
A No *
Q You didn't tell your mother that you went over

there?
A I didn't.
Q All right. Well, l e t me, urn, play something f o r

you, and I want to ask you a couple of questions;
all right?
A Okay.
(Wherein a u d i o clip is p l a y e d . )
Q That w a s t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n between you and your
mother; right?
A Yes.
50
Q All right. Why didn't you tell your mother at
5 : 0 0 what you had seen earlier?
A Because it really didn't happen.
Q Was Teresa Halbach alive at 5:00, Mr. Dassey?

A S h e was never there at -- when I was there.
Q Never where, sir?

A I never seen her there.
Q You never saw her t h e r e ?

A No.
Q All r i g h t . Then, why is your m o t h e r asking you

that question?
A I don't know.
Q Where do you t h i n k s h e would have gotten the idea

that you were there before 5:00, sir?
A I don' t know.
Q She came home about 5 : 0 0 ?

A Yes.
Q So at 5: 00, you're home, your brother, Blaine, is

still there, a n d you're there?
A Yes.
Q Your b r o t h e r , Blaine, leaves at 5: 15, 5:20?
A Yes.
Q Your mother leaves 5:20, 5:30?
A Yes.
Q And s h e l e a v e s with Mr. Tadych?
51
A Yes.
a All right. Mr. Dassey, l e t me a s k you a

question: In the interview you gave on March 1
with these two gentlemen here, you told them that
your uncle's f i a n c e , J o d i S t a c h o w s k i , called;
correct?
A Yes.
Q You t o l d him that s h e called twice; correct?

A Yes.
Q All r i g h t . You t o l d them that s h e called at

5:30?
A Yes.
Q How do you know t h a t , i f you weren't t h e r e ?
A Because Steven told me.
Q He told you that?

A Yes.
Q What time did he tell you the other time?

A What do you mean?
Q I ' m sorry?
A What do you mean?
Q How many times did she call t h a t n i g h t ?
A Twice.
Q How many t i m e s were you there?

A When I was t h e r e ?
Q Yeah.
52
A Once.
Q 1 have something else I'd l i k e you t o l i s t e n t o ,
sir. I have something e l s e for you, sir. One
moment .
(Wherein portion of March 1 videotape i s played)
ATTORNEY FALLON: Record should reflect
that was about 14 minutes.
THE COURT: Do you have the start and
ending times?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Yes. Uh, 11:37, 47, to,
I believe it was about 11:50, approximately.
Q (By Attorney Fallon) All right. Mr. Dassey, you

t o l d t h e officers t h a t you w e r e there and Teresa
w a s alive?
A Yes.
Q She w a s a l i v e ?
A B u t it really didn't happen.
Q You made that all up?

A Yes.
Q You j u s t happened to know Teresa's words?

A No.
Q H o w do you know what she s a i d ?

A I made it up.
Q You made it u p ?
A Yes.
53
Q You made up the part that you raped h e r ?
A Yes.
Q You made up the part that she told you not to do

it?
A Yes.
Q T o do the right t h i n g ?
A Yes.
Q And to tell your uncle n o t to do i t ?
A Yes.
Q You made that up?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Dassey, didn't you tell your mother in a

phone call on May 13 that you had gone over to
your Uncle Steven's a f t e r school and before she

came home ?
A Yes.
Q You did?
A Yes.
Q And, a g a i n , on May 15, the first tape we played,

she's asking you why you didn't tell h e r . Why
didn't you?
A Because it didn't happen.
Q Why d i d you tell h e r you went over t h e r e , s i r ?

A I don1t know.
Q You l i e d to your mother as well?
54
A Yes.
Q A n d you lied to the police?
A Yes.
Q Are you lying -- you're lying today?
A No.
Q Didn' t you tell your mother, when she asked you,

when did you go over there, well, I went over
earlier and then came home before you did.
A Yeah.
Q You told her that; r i g h t ?

A Yeah.
Q A l l right. And she s a i d , why didn't you say
something to me then; right?
A Yeah.
Q And you answered, I don't know, I was too scared.

A Yeah.
Q You didn't tell your mother you weren't there,

did you?
A Because I never went up -- o u t -- over t h e r e .
Q My question, young man, is you didn't tell your
mother you weren't there; right?
A No.
Q That's n o t r i g h t ?
A I didn't tell her.
Q You d i d n o t . Why?
55
A Because I -- I d i d n ' t go o v e r there.
Q Why d i d you let her believe that you did?
A I don't know.
Q Now, speaking of these -- these lies, Mr. Dassey,

on your direct examination, you told us that
there was a fire that night; right?
A Yes.
Q B u t when you were i n t e r v i e w e d up in C r i v i t z by
Detective O I N e i l l , you remember the gentleman who
testified a couple of days ago?
A Yes.
Q All right. You told him t h e r e was no fire that

week; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q So you lied to him?

A Yes.
Q Why d i d you l i e to him?
A Because I'm just l i k e my f a m i l y . I don't l i k e cops.
Q You don't like cops. Why didn't you tell

Detective O'Neill what you told us on direct
e x a m i n a t i o n today?
A I don1t know.
Q You didn't -- if you didn't do a n y t h i n g wrong,

sir, why d i d n ' t you t e l l Detective O'Neill?
A I don't know.
56
Q Your brother's interview was done much more
quickly than yours; right?
A Yeah.
Q On November 6 ?
A Yes.
Q In fact, he was done in about 10 minutes, maybe,

15, maybe?
A I believe s o .
Q All right. Now, in that second interview -- you

just told us you were interviewed twice up in
Crivitz area. On the second interview, you did

tell them about a f i r e .
A Yes.
Q When d i d you t e l l them the fire happened that

time ?
A On October 31.
Q Isn't it a fact you told them that the fire was

Tuesday or Wednesday of that week and n o t Monday?
A I m i g h t have.
Q I want to p l a y one very b r i e f clip from this

March 1 interview, sir. I'd like you to watch i t
and then answer a question or two; all right?
A Yes.
(Wherein p o r t i o n of March 1 videotape is p l a y e d )
ATTORNEY FALLON: For the record, I started
57
at 2:10:25, uh, 2 .
Q (By Attorney Fallon) Mr. Dassey, i f you d i d n ' t

do a n y t h i n g , why d i d you feel sad?
A I don't know.
Q Why did you apologize?

A I d o n ' t know.
Q They didn't tell you to a p o l o g i z e ?
A No.
Q You apologized on y o u r own; right?

A Yes.
Q Do you always apologize for things that you

didn't do?
A Not really.
Q In fact, you usually apologize when you've done

something wrong?
A Not r e a l l y .
Q You d o n ' t a p o l o g i z e t h e n e i t h e r ?
A Sometimes.
Q Okay. When do you apologize?

A For both.
Q For both? Explain, p l e a s e .

A I would s a y t h a t I ' m s o r r y for, uh, some things I do
and some I don't.
Q Is that why you apologize in this case? Because

you were sorry f o r what you had done to Teresa?
58
A No, because I didn't do it.
Q Why did you apologize?
A I d o n ' t know.
Q Now, all w e e k you s a t in court with your head

down and you d i d n ' t l o o k a t the tape of t h e
interview when we played it on F r i d a y . Why?
A Huh?
Q Why did y o u n o t l o o k a t t h e t a p e ?
A Because I didn't have to.
Q I n f a c t , you d i d n ' t l o o k a t the t a p e t h i s morning
when I p l a y e d it f o r t h e f i f t h -- f o r almost 1 5
minutes, did you?
A No.
Q You didn't have to; right?
A No.
Q That's because you knew what w a s on i t ?

A Yes.
Q Yeah, A r e you ashamed of your behavior? Is that

why your head was down a l l week?
A No.
Q Are you feeling guilty?

A No.
Q Then why were you hanging your head a l l week?

A I had my head down because I c a n hear better t h a t
way.
59
Q Are you h e a r i n g me all right now?
A Yes.
Q You've heard Detective Wiegert testify on --

A Yes.
Q -- Friday and Saturday morning; right?
A Yes.
Q And he said he had no idea that t h e r e was a

sexual assault?
A Yes.
Q You were the one who brought up t h e fact of a

sexual assault; right?
A Yes.
Q You brought up the rape; r i g h t ?

A Yes.
Q You went over to y o u r uncle's cabin because you

knew you were g o i n g to have sex; right?
A No.
Q Why did you tell t h e police that your Uncle

Steven was p r o u d of you f o r what you had done?
A I don't know.
Q Why d i d you s a y that you sexually assaulted h e r ?
A I don't know.
Q Why d i d you s a y you p u t your penis in h e r f o r
f i v e minutes?
A I don't know.
60
Q Why did you tell the police that you thought it
was blood in the garage?
A Because it was the c o l o r of red.
Q Because it was the c o l o r of red?

A Yeah.
Q It looked l i k e blood?
A It could have been.
Q What else would it have been?

A Fluid from a car.
Q Mr. Dassey, have you ever used bleach to c l e a n up

car f l u i d ?
A That was the first time I cleaned up car fluid.
Q First time?
A Yes.
Q All right. And you used gas?

A Yes.
Q Used p a i n t t h i n n e r ?
A Yes.
Q And you used bleach?

A Yes.
Q You used the bleach?

A Well, Steven p u t it on the ground.
Q How did the bleach g e t on your p a n t s if you never

got on t h e ground, s i r ?
A It c o u l d have splashed up on my p a n t s .
61
Q All t h e way up t o y o u r w a i s t ?
A That, or I could have had some -- the s p r i n k l e s on
the bottom c o u l d have been from s p l a s h i n g on the
g r o u n d , and when I picked up the -- the towel -- the
rags that we used, I could have wiped my hands on my
pants.
Q Those rags were Teresa's clothing; right?

A No.
Q Why d i d you tell the o f f i c e r s her c l o t h i n g were
i n the fire?
A I d o n ' t know.
Q All right. I want to show you a picture. I'm

showing you what is marked f o r identification, o r
received into evidence, excuse me, as E x h i b i t
204. You r e c o g n i z e the people i n that picture?
A Yes.
Q That's your Uncle Steve on the right?

A Yes.
Q And your grandmaand your grandpa i n t h e m i d d l e ?
A Yes.
Q And that's you on t h e left?
A Yes.
Q And that's at t h e c a b i n i n C r i v i t z ?
A Yes.
Q As a matter of fact, that's the search warrant on
62
t h e table; right?
A 1 couldn't -- can't tell.
Q Do you remember that picture being taken?

A Yes.
Q And it was t a k e n right around t h e same time you

were interviewed by Detective OUNeill; r i g h t ?
A I can't recall.
Q Well, you j u s t said you remember when t h e p i c t u r e

was t a k e n . When was it taken?
A In November something.
Q In November?
A Yes.
Q While you were up at Crivitz?

A Yes.
Q And before your Uncle Steven was arrested?

A Yes.
Q So it would have been taken between November 5

and, say, November 9 ?
A Yes.
Q What were you talking about in that -- right

around the time of t h a t p i c t u r e ?
A I can't remember.
Q A l l right. Is your Uncle Steven proud of you?
Does he have that proud look in h i s face?
A No.
63
Q What are you t h i n k i n g in that p i c t u r e ? Do you
remember?
A No.
Q Why d i d you tell the police t h a t y o u r Uncle
Steven was p r o u d of you for helping him?

A I donTt know.
Q Why d i d you t e l l them h e c o u l d n ' t have done it

without you on that March 1 i n t e r v i e w ?
A I don't know.
Q Well, he was proud of you for h e l p i n g him, w a s n ' t

he?
A No.
Q He w a s not?
A Because it didn't happen.
Q I'm sorry? What didn't happen?
A All t h e s t u f f that I said.
Q Well, d i d you clean up?

A Yeah.
Q All r i g h t . You helped p u t t h i n g s o n the f i r e ?

A Yes.
Q All right. As a matter of f a c t , you saw this car

seat; right?
A Yes.
Q I t ' s s i t t i n g r i g h t i n f r o n t of you; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
64
Q You helped your uncle put that car s e a t on t h e
fire?
A Yes.
Q And you helped him put tires o n the f i r e ?

A Yes.
Q So that part's t r u e ?
A Yes.
Q A n d he told you, when he was done, t h a n k s for
helping. I'm proud of you. I couldn't have done
i t w i t h o u t you.
A N o t that I remember.
Q Well, let's t a l k about your memory. H o w is it
that you were able t o t e l l t h e p o l i c e officers,
Mr. Fassbender and Mr. Wiegert, so much detail
about what happened to Teresa if you weren't
there?
A I don't know.
Q What do you mean, sir, you don't know?

A I could have got it out of books.
Q Out of books?
A Yeah.
Q Tell us, what books could you have g o t t e n that

o u t of?
A I don't remember the names.
Q Where else could you have gotten it?
65
A I don't know.
Q All right. O u t of books. Let's talk about that

then. Would you say you have a good memory,
Mr. Dassey, or a medium one, or a poor one?

A Between poor and medium.
Q All r i g h t . And would you agree w i t h t h e

counselor, Ms., um -- Ms. Gross,
Schoenenberger-Gross, when she testified on, uh,

Saturday morning that you do have memory problems
when it comes to learning stuff at school?
A Yes.
Q As a matter of fact, when you read t h i n g s , o r

when teachers tell you things, it's hard for you
to remember that so you do well on your tests;
right?
A Yes.
Q All right. But f o r o t h e r t h i n g s , t h i n g s that you

personally experience, things that you see and
feel and hear and smell yourself, your memory is
better for those things; right?
A Somewhat.
Q And -- and that's because you actually live
through them, you experience them; right?
A Yeah.
Q Well, when was it that you read these books to
66
h e l p you provide all that detail t o t h e s e
officers?
A Probably three, four y e a r s ago.
Q I'm s o r r y ?
A Three or four years ago?
Q Three or four years ago? And you j u s t happened
to remember a l l of that on March 1, 2 0 0 6 ?
A Yes.
Q And you j u s t happened t o be a b l e t o t e l l them t h e

exact travels that your Uncle Steve took in
d r i v i n g Teresa Halbach's SUV from his garage to
the place i n t h e salvage yard where t h e v e h i c l e
w a s hidden?
A Yes.
Q What book had t h a t story i n it, Mr. Dassey?

A I don ' t know.
Q What book that you read ever had t h e s t o r y of a
woman chained to a bed, raped by two -- raped,
stabbed, and then h e r body thrown on a f i r e ?
What book was that, sir?
A I b e l i e v e i t was called, K i s s the Girls.
Q A l l right. Who w r o t e the book?
A I don't remember his name.
Q Mr. Dassey, please l o o k at E x h i b i t 2 0 8 ?

A Yeah.
67
Q You d r e w that; correct?
A Yes.
Q That's your d e p i c t i o n ?
A Yes.
Q Of Teresa Halbach c h a i n e d to t h e bed?
A I d o n ' t understand.
Q Is that your dep -- is that your description? Is

that how s h e l o o k e d when you saw h e r on the bed
in Uncle Steven's bedroom?

A I didn't see it.
Q You j u s t made that up?

A As I said, I g o t it out of that book.
Q Yeah. The bed is a bed that you c o u l d see from
t h e living room? You could see down the hallway
and see into that bedroom?
A Yes.
Q Exhibit 210. You drew this as well, s i r ;
correct?
A Yes.
Q That is your description of the burn area?

A Yes.
Q That is your description of Teresa on the fire in

the burn pit?
A Yes.
Q You made that up?
68
A Yes.
Q Why?
A I d o n ' t know.
Q Did you make E x h i b i t 2 0 8 up?
A Yes.
Q Why?
A I don't know.
Q Exhibit 209. You drew this picture of the
garage; c o r r e c t ?
A Yes.
Q T h i s i s your picture of Teresa Halbach; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q And that's the area right here where you cleaned
up; r i g h t ?
A No.
Q Well, you s a i d t h a t you cleaned up a -- a three
foot by three f o o t s t a i n i n t h e garage on direct
examination; r i g h t ?
A It was in t h e garage b u t n o t right t h e r e .
Q You t o l d the p o l i c e it was r i g h t b e h i n d t h e lawn

mower?
A Yes.
Q And that's where you cleaned up?
A No.
Q Why d i d you t e l l the police this was the area of
69
the cleanup?
I don't know.
Why did you put Teresa Halbachvs representation,
this stick person, why did you tell them that was
Teresa's body?
I don't know.
Exhibit 207. You drew this picture of the k n i f e ?
Yes.
You said this was the k n i f e that your Uncle
Steven used to stab Teresa Halbach?
Yes.
You drew that?
Yes.
And you describe it as having a black handle?
Yes.
And you told t h e police this was the k n i f e that
you used to cut across the front of her throat?
Yes.
Why?
I don't know.
Mr. Dassey, why did you tell the police that the
burn pile smelled bad?
I don't know.
It smelled bad because there was a body t h e r e ;

right?
No.
You saw body parts in that f i r e , didn't you?
No.
You told the officers that on February 27 you saw

body parts?
Yes.
You told your cousin, Kayla, you saw body parts
in December?
No.
No? She just made that up?
Yes.
Okay. Did you ever talk to Kayla about the

events? T h e t h i n g s that happened on October 31?
I might have talked about Steven to h e r , but n o t what

happened on that day.
What would you think you would have told her
about Steven?
I don't remember what I told h e r .

D i d you tell h e r a n y t h i n g about body p a r t s o r --
or a n y of t h e information that you told, uh,
Investigators, uh, Fassbender and Wiegert?
No.
Okay. You're sure?
Yes.
Absolutely sure?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Then tell us, how is it that you and

Kayla, both, came up with telling and s e e i n g body
parts i n the f i r e i f you never t a l k e d about it?
A She could have heard it on the news.
Q What newscast would that have been, sir?

A I don't know.
Q Your seeing body parts in t h e fire? What

newscast was that?
A I don't know. When I heard that they found bones.
Q No. M y question is, you told the police on

F e b r u a r y 2 7 you s a w body p a r t s ; r i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q All r i g h t . K a y l a is t e l l i n g h e r counselors of a
conversation she had with you. She's telling her
c o u n s e l o r s in J a n u a r y t h a t she t a l k e d to you in
December and that you had t o l d her about body
parts. How could that be?
A I don't know.
Q H o w do you feel a b o u t this today? Right now.

A That I j u s t want to go home.
Q That's all you feel r i g h t now? You j u s t want to
go home?
A And scared.
Q Do you feel sorry f o r Teresa?
72
A Well, I know everybody f e e l s s o r r y f o r l o s i n g
someone .
Q What do you feel?

A I f e e l s o r r y f o r them.
Q Why? Why?
A Because I know how it feels to lose someone that you
love.
Q And you're t e l l i n g u s today t h a t you had n o t h i n g
t o do w i t h the -- w i t h the death of Teresa
Halbach?
A No.
Q Why d i d you tell t h e o f f i c e r s that you d i d ?
A I don' t know.
Q And i s i t just a coincidence that you had a l l the

details about how she died?
A I d o n t t know.
Q Do you r e c o g n i z e t h i s e x h i b i t ; 1 7 0 ?
A Yes.
Q T h i s is the rake that your Uncle Steven u s e d to
tend the f i r e t h a t n i g h t , i s n ' t it?
A I c a n ' t remember.
Q You can't r e m e m b e r ?
A No.
Q How about this shovel? Exhibit, uh, 171?

A Yes.
73
Q He u s e d this shovel that night; right?
A Well, I know he used a shovel and a rake, but I don't
know that they're it.
Q How did you know that Teresa was handcuffed to

t h e bed?
A I d o n ' t know.
Q You j u s t made t h a t up?

A Yes.
Q You've never t o l d a lie before that got you into
so much trouble, have you?
A No.
ATTORNEY FALLON: That's all.

Q Brendan, you had been asked by Attorney Fallon
about t h e jeans. And, s p e c i f i c a l l y , asked a b o u t
how bleach g o t on them; c o r r e c t ?
A Yes.
Q You s a i d you m i g h t Rave wiped y o u r hands on them?

A Yeah.
Q Do you recall wiping your hands on them?

A I t h i n k I did.
Q When did you notice that they were dirty with

bleach?
74
A When I got home.
Q That same n i g h t ?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Fallon played a -- played a p o r t i o n of t h e

video f o r you to watch and asked you some
questions. Do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q And he questioned you about how you had answered

the questions to the two o f f i c e r s ; correct?
A Yes.
Q Had you s a i d the same t h i n g before t h a t t o the
officers?
ATTORNEY FALLON: Objection, vague.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's f i n e .
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) What did you say to the

o f f i c e r s p r i o r to -- about those same t o p i c s
p r i o r t o t h a t c l i p t h a t he just showed you?
A I don't understand.
Q Okay. A t t o r n e y Fallon showed you a c l i p of you
telling t h e o f f i c e r s about being there a n d seeing
Teresa Halbach and participating and killing her
and sexually assaulting her; correct?

A Yes.
Q You watched t h a t or saw it or heard it?

A Yes.
75
Q Were you asked those same q u e s t i o n s a t a n y o t h e r
time during that interview?
A During t h a t interview?
Q During interviews with the officers?

A Before the t a p i n g ?
Q Were you asked any questions l i k e t h a t before
that clip on t h e video?
A Yes.
Q Were your a n s w e r s t h e same?

A No.
Q Why d i d you have different answers before that?

A Because I was making i t up.
Q What were you making up?

A The details and that.
Q B e f o r e or d u r i n g the clip that M r . F a l l o n showed,
what was the p a r t that you made up?
A Well, t h e s t u f f that didn't really happen i s t h e
stuff that I made up.
Q A n d what s t u f f didn't r e a l l y happen?
A Where I was over t h e r e b e f o r e 5 : 0 0 , where h e l p e d , and
k i l l h e r , and rape h e r and that.
Q Why should this jury believe you today?

A Because I didn't r e a l l y do it.
Q On the v i d e o clip -- again, I'm t a l k i n g about the

one Mr. Fallon showed you?
76
A Yes.
Q The l o n g e r o n e ?
A Yeah.
Q It's a b o u t 15 minutes l o n g ? You h e a r d t h e

questions t h a t were a s k e d of you by the o f f i c e r s ?
A Yes.
Q When the officer would t e l l you t h a t it w a s n ' t
your fault, how d i d t h a t make you feel when
y o u ' r e a n s w e r i n g t h e questions?
ATTORNEY FALLOM: Objection, beyond the
scope.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: It was on the video.
THE COURT: It was. Uh, o v e r r u l e d . You

may a n s w e r .
THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the
question?
Q ( B y A t t o r n e y Fremgen) When t h e officers would
t e l l you, t h i s i s n o t y o u r f a u l t , how d i d t h a t
q u e s t i o n o r how d i d that comment in the question
make you feel?
A T h a t I w o u l d n ' t be -- t h a t I w o u l d n ' t be t a k e n away
from my family and p u t in j a i l .
Q No matter what you s a i d ?

A Yeah.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I have nothing else,
77
Judge.
ATTORNEY FALLON: No. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down.

We'll take a break. About, uh -- until about
quarter to.
(Recess had at 1 0 : 2 4 a.m.)
(Reconvened at 1 0 : 5 6 a . m . J u r y in.)
THE COURT: At this stage, ladies and

gentlemen, uh, this is part of t h e defense's case.
The d e f e n s e has subpoenaed a witness, but the
witness is n o t going t o be available until 1:30 this
afternoon; is that correct?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: He's apparently
leaving t h e crime lab s h o r t l y . Should be here by
1:30.
THE COURT: Uh, you're f i n d i n g out that
scheduling witnesses is certainly not a science in

the case, and I ' m n o t even s u r e i t v s an art, b u t
in -- in any event, that's what's -- that's what
occurred, or that's w h a t ' s o c c u r r i n g a t t h i s stage.
And h e will be your o n l y w i t n e s s t h i s afternoon?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: T h i s afternoon. The
next witness we have would take about, we're
guessing, somewhere b e t w e e n five, five-and-a-half
78
hours.
THE COURT: Tomorrow.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We'll begin f i r s t thing
Mon -- uh, tomorrow morning, correct.
THE COURT: A l l right. So with t h a t s a i d ,
uh, we're g o i n g t o a d j o u r n u n t i l 1:30 t h i s
afternoon. Thank you.
(Reconvened at 1:44 p.m. Jury i n )

THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, a t t h i s t i m e w e
would call Mike R i d d l e .
THE COURT: R i g h t up here, s i r . Just

remain standing.
THE CLERK: Please r a i s e y o u r r i g h t hand.
MICEIAEL RIDDLE,
called as a witness herein, having been first duly
your name and s p e l l y o u r l a s t name for the record.
THE WITNESS: Michael R i d d l e , R-i-d-d-1-e.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q Mr. Riddle, what i s y o u r c u r r e n t employer?
A I ' m a l a t e n t p r i n t examiner w i t h the State Crime L a b
79
in Madison.
Q Why don't you pull the microphone j u s t a little

bit closer to you. And how long have you been
working in that c a p a c i t y ?
A Uh, be 15 y e a r s in August.
Q What, uh, g e n e r a l l y , are y o u r duties and

responsibilities as a -- a fingerprint analyst
for the crime l a b ?
A We receive evidence from, uh, l o c a l s h e r i f f and

police departments to process f o r presence of l a t e n t
finger or palm p r i n t s . If w e do get p r i n t s on an
item and they're compared to standard fingerprint or
palm-print cards in attempt to make an
identification.
Q Youlve testified as an expert in f i n g e r p r i n t

analysis in prior cases in the state of
Wisconsin?
A Yes, I: have.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I believe at this
time, Judge, the State has no objection to
qualifying this individual as an expert in t h i s
field.
THE COURT: Is that correct?

ATTORNEY GAHN: That's correct, Your
Honor.
80
THE COURT: All right. It's stipulated
then.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We'll avoid a number of
other questions that way.
Q ( B y Attorney Fremgen) I see you have a f i l e w i t h

you. Is that the file in regards to this
investigation?
A Yes, it is.
Q If you need to refer to that while you're
testifying, if you can just indicate that you
need do to do s o before you do.
A Okay. Thanks.
Q Thank you. Can you, uh, briefly explain why

analyzing fingerprints is an important
investigative tool?
A Because of the uniqueness and individualness of
f i n g e r s , uh, no two fingerprints on -- are a l i k e on
any p e r s o n o r persons, s o if we a r e a b l e to find a
latent print on an item, it does indicate that that
item was touched at some point in time by that
particular individual, uh, to the exclusion of all
others.
Q Is this an exact science?

A Yes, it is.
Q Can you, uh, u h , b r i e f l y describe what it is t h a t
81
you're looking for, as a fingerprint analys --
when you're doing a fingerprint analysis, in

regards to, say, comparing a known f i n g e r p r i n t t o
an unknown fingerprint?
A Well, the f i r s t t h i n g I do is if you c a n see a
pattern type. There's only t h r e e basic patterns on
fingerprints, and i t v s a whorl, or a loop, uh, or an
arch. Urn, looking at the standard, if I see that a
person has all loops, which is fairly common, and t h e
latent fingerprint I have is -- is a whorl, then I
d o n f t have to look any further. I can automatically

exclude that print.
Uh, if I do get two p a t t e r n t y p e s t h a t
are the same, then I look for individual
characteristics within that pattern area in order
to make a n identification.
Q What ways do you, as -- or as, let's say, a crime

t e c h i n d i v i d u a l , who may be lifting prints and --
and you can describe what that means, but what
ways, uh, are there available to you, or those
persons, urn, extracting or developing a

fingerprint for purposes of comparison, can you
d e s c r i b e t h e ways t h a t you go about to do that?
A There's several different ways, and usually it
depends upon the nature of the s u r f a c e as to what
82
method of development we use t o b r i n g out a
fingerprint .
A -- a latent p r i n t i s also c a l l e d a
hidden p r i n t , which means i t ' s i n v i s i b l e and has
t o be brought out or developed by the u s e of
powders or chemicals.
If we have a real nice, smooth s u r f a c e ,

urn, such as a piece of glass, then we c a n j u s t
use regular f i n g e r p r i n t powders, d e v e l o p t h e
p r i n t t h a t way, and w e c a n photograph it, and
preserve it. Urn, and we either do or do not l i f t
it. I t depends. Uh, if we h a v e -- have i t
captured w i t h a photograph, there r e a l l y i s n ' t
any n e c -- i s n ' t necessary t o go a n y f a r t h e r .
Urn, b u t , many times, we'll put some
lifting tape, which is like a c l e a r , plastic

tape, and we'll r u b it on t o p of the p r i n t , p i c k
i t up, and put it on a backer.

If we're using -- if we're using a white
powder, we'll -- can p u t it on a black backer s o
t h a t w e c a n see t h e c o n t r a s t , and i f we're using
a -- a d a r k e r powder, t h e n w e ' l l p u t i t on a
white or a c l e a r backer so w e c a n see i t .

Urn, o t h e r i t e m s t h a t are more porous,
such a s paper, cardboard, uh, w e have t o use
83
chemicals in order to develop those prints. Uh,
there's one particular chemical we use called

Ninhydrin, and it reacts t o t h e amino acids in
the fingerprints. So when we, uh, processed

that, either brush it on, or spray it on, urn,
it'll develop into kind of a purple fingerprint.
Brings out all the ridge detail.
Uh, there's also Superglue, which we use

on s e m i - p o r o u s items. P u t it in a tank where
there's superglue fumes, and t h e fumes will
adhere to the fatty a c i d s in t h e fingerprint.
Uh, a f t e r t h a t ' s accomplished, w e can
e i t h e r powder i t and lift i t , or we can enhance
it f u r t h e r by the u s e of dye s t a i n s and look a t

i t under a l a s e r .
Q Now, you were referring t o l a t e n t prints --

A Yes --
Q -- for t h e m o s t part?
A -- that's correct.
Q There a r e o t h e r types of p r i n t s ; correct? For

instance, visible prints?
A There's visible prints, known a s , uh, pat -- patent
prints, and there's also ink impressions, uh, we get
from our fingerprint standards, l i k e on a fingerprint
card.
84
-
Q What are p l a s t i c prints? Have you heard t h a t

term before?
A Uh, y e s . It's either a plastic or a molded

impression, and these are impressions that m i g h t be
l e f t i n clay, putty. Urn, oftentimes i f a b u r g l a r
t r i e s t o get i n through a window that's puttied, we
can f i n d molded p r i n t s i n s i d e t h e r e .
Q I f someone leaves a p r i n t in dust, for instance,
what would -- would that be able to be, urn,
l i f t e d u n d e r some of t h e -- w h a t you discussed i n
regards t o l a t e n t p r i n t s , or i s that more
appropriate to be somehow preserved as like a
plastic print?
A Well, in -- in a d u s t p r i n t , urn, we d o n ' t g e t a whole

l o t of those, because what normally happens, if a
surface is r e a l d u s t y and t h e hand o r f i n g e r s touches
t h a t d u s t y item, i t lifts the -- i t l i f t s the d u s t
away, and i t may leave a n impression looking l i k e a
f i n g e r w a s t h e r e , but there usually is no ridge
d e t a i l , uh, a t a l l . So there's not much we can do
w i t h it. W e c a n t r y s u p e r g l u i n g it and see i f w e can
d e v e l o p r i d g e d e t a i l , but on dusty surfaces, it -- it
usually doesn't work v e r y w e l l .
Q Is it possible to u s e d i g i t a l photograph of a
print, whether it be v i s i b l e o r plastic, f o r
85
instance, to be able to preserve the print
without, actually, physically touching the print?

A Yes, it's possible. Urn, we -- we use standard three
by f i v e format film, uh, not -- not digital, to
capture our p r i n t s . Although, we do get many prints
in from other agencies that they've used digital
camera to take them.
Q For instance, t h e FBI, I think, has developed a

methodology, and -- for that tech -- technology
for, uh, extracting prints using d i g i t a l
photographs; i s t h a t correct?
Q Now, in -- in this case, uh, you -- you were

called in at some point to assist in the
investigation? The Halbach case?

A Yes, I was.
Q And you were -- you'd have -- well, how would i t

occur? Did -- did t h e , uh, lead investigators
contact you and ask you t o look at items that may
have either visible or latent prints?

A Well, when the vehicle was located and -- and bought
(sic) to the l a b , that's where I started my
involvement in it. And, uh, we d o n 7 t get a lot of
vehicles in there, but when we do get them in the
identification section, we'd sort of r o t a t e , uh, and
86
I was -- happened to be up at that time. That's how
I got t h a t vehicle.
Q One second. You mentioned t h e vehicle. Is t h i s

the vehicle you're referring to?
A Yes, it is.
Q And when you -- you -- You, uh, for instance,
examined the vehicle for possible prints; is t h a t
correct?
A That's correct.
Q Did you view the -- t h e vehicle once it was at
the crime l a b , o r d i d you, a c t u a l l y , p h y s i c a l l y

come t o the crime scene t o -- to view the -- uh,
the vehicle where i t w a s f o u n d ?
A All my work was done strictly at the crime lab.
Q So you weren't a field -- you weren't involved in

the field operations of this investigation?
A No, I was n o t .
Q So, now, at the crime lab, you observed t h i s

vehicle. Did you observe any visible prints when
you, uh, examined the vehicle?
A Yes, I did.
Q And were you able to, urn, somehow preserve those
prints?
A Uh, the prints were powdered and developed that way,
and then they were photographed. Urn, after the -- I
87
l o o k e d a t the photographs and determined that they
were of value for identification, then I attempted to
lift them. Urn, however, the -- for some reason or
another, they d i d not lift r e a l w e l l o f f t h e v e h i c l e .
Q B u t you did first photograph the print before
attempting the l i f t ?
A That's correct.
Q Okay. So you were able to also make -- do your

own observation of the photograph and compare to,
let's say, f o r instance, a known sample?
A That's correct.
Q I n this case, do you recall what items of the

Rav 4 that you, urn, examined and were able to
eith -- either photograph or actually l i f t a
p o s s i b l e p r i n t from?
A Yes. T h e outside of the vehicle, all those p r i n t s
that I found there were mostly -- ma -- majority of
them were on the rear or the s i d e of the vehicle.
Uh, those were a l l powdered and t h e n photographed,

preserved i n t h a t way. Urn, there was other items
inside the car. A water b o t t l e . I ' v e got a list i f
you want me to read o f f the list.
Q If -- if you recall?
A I don't recall all the items on there, but they --
they were -- they were processed inside the lab a
88
little bit differently. The vehicle on the outside
was processed in the garage. Uh, obviously, I can't
take that into my lab area. But the vehicles that I

took out -- excuse me -- the, urn, items that I took
out from the i n s i d e of the vehicle were, uh, taken
back into the lab area and placed in a fuming tank,
uh, where they were superglued and then powdered.
Urn, I don't know if I -- I don't t h i n k I

had any of those photographed, though, because
they were -- I j u s t l i f t e d them.
Q When you, uh, examined the exterior of the

vehicle, in doing so, did you look at what would
be considered obvious points of potential entry
that might leave a visible or latent print?
A Well, obviously, we look at -- at door handles,
and -- and areases (phonetic) l i k e that to see if we
can develop prints. I didn't see any visible in
those areas except for on the back door. Uh, course
the whole vehicle, itself, was powdered, because not
all the prints would be visigle (phonetic) visible to
the naked eye.
Urn, t h e -- the ones that were visible
appeared l i k e they had been left in some type of
a substance, whether it'd been grease or
something, because I t h i n k that's the reason they
89
wouldn't lift. It'd actually dried on the
vehicle and I couldn't -- I couldn't lift
a n y t h i n g o f f of it.
a Before I leave this exhibit, specifically, on the

back of t h e Rav 4, you can't see very clearly in
this picture, b u t do you recall there's a spare

t i r e or some sort of tire on the back end?
A That Is correct, there was.
Q And there's a cover -- some s o r t of cover on

that?
Q Did you note any -- what appeared to be a swipe

mark or some sort of a hand, palm p r i n t type of
marking?
A It actually appeared to be a whole handprint, urn, on
the tire cover, i t s e l f . The problem w i t h t h a t i s ,
like I w a s s a y i n g before, t h i s w a s r e a l l y d i r t y , t h e
back of the t i r e cover was, and -- and r a t h e r t h a n
actually l e a v i n g r i d g e d e t a i l behind, t h a t ' s a c t u a l l y
a blank spot where they lifted the dirt up off of --

where it probably adhered to their f i n g e r s when t h e y
removed their hands.
Uh, I did take the cover off and fume it
i n -- i n attempt t o get o t h e r p r i n t s off of i t ,
b u t n o t h i n g developed. As I said, it was very
90
dirty and d i r t is not a good medium for
fingerprints .
Q So you attempted to, actually, lift a print o f f

of it. Unable to do so?
A I -- I didn't attempt to l i f t i n -- i n using lifting
tape. I -- I attempted t o develop one. Urn, there
was nothing to develop, so there was nothing to lift.
Q From t h e photograph you took o f that, you

didn't -- I'm s o r r y . You d i d take a photograph
as well?
A Uh, they -- photographs were actually taken by B r i a n

Werner (phonetic) who is our forensic photographer at
the l a b . But, y e s , I had h i m photograph it first.
a And you had an opportunity to review the
photograph, t o o ?
A Y e s , I did.
Q Were you able to find any sort of ridge

formations? Were you able to p r o v i d e any s o r t of
a -- a comparison from?
A There was no r i d g e d e t a i l on back of t h a t t i r e cover
that was suitable for comparison.
Q Were there any, what appeared t o be, c l e a r
i n d i c a t i o n s of a hand o r palm p r i n t on any o t h e r
vehicle parts of the exterior of the vehicle?

A Yes, t h e r e w a s . The o t h e r palm p r i n t was on the rear
91
of the vehicle. Urn, it's a c t u a l l y on the s i d e rear.
I t h i n k it was the driver's side rear quarter p a n e l

a l m o s t r i g h t close to the back door.
Q B y p o i n t i n g t o t h i s a r e a , would be in t h i s area
on this p i c t u r e ?
A Right. Yeah.
Q And, a g a i n , was i t y o u r ability to -- w e r e you
a b l e to photograph t h a t apparent palm o r
handprint?
A Yes, we were.
Q Were you a b l e t o extract a n y s o r t of physical

p r i n t from that?
A Y e s , we were.
Q And were you able to match that to any known
sample t h a t was provided to you?
A No, I was not.
Q Now, specifically, i n t h i s case, you were

provided with a number of family members of the
Avery family; correct?
Q And at one point you were provided w i t h Brendan

Dassey' s, uh, I believe it was fingerprints and
palm print?
A That's correct, I was.
Q Were you able to compare -- o r did you do a
92
comparison of t h a t p r i n t from t h e side of the
vehicle with the known p r i n t f r o m Brendan Dassey?
A Y e s , I did.
Q Were you able to make a match?
A No, I was n o t .
Q I'm g o i n g to show you what's been marked -- and

that last one, by the way, for the record, was
Exhibit 141. I show you w h a t ' s been marked a s
Exhibit 144. You had mentioned t h a t i n t h e

i n t e r i o r of t h e vehicle there was some items that
you attempted to lift the prints from. May have
actually done so; correct?
A That's correct.
Q If you can see -- I'll provide you with a

pointer.
A Okay.
Q Do you see any i t e m s on t h e i n t e r i o r o f the

vehicle that you were able to obtain some
comparable prints from?
A Urn, I believe that's a water b o t t l e r i g h t i n there I
know o f , and a n o t h e r o n e r i g h t here, p o s s i b l y . I

think there was a total of t h r e e water bottles. And
I d i d get some p r i n t s off o f , uh, either one or t w o
of t h o s e that I was a b l e to l i f t .
Q Were you able to obtain any usable p r i n t s f r o m
93
t h e black CD case?
A I'm going to have to refer to my notes, if you don't
mind.
Q That's f i n e .
A Yes, I was.
Q So, you -- can you tell, from your notes, then,

what, exactly, from the i n t e r i o r of the vehicle,
you were able to e x t r a c t a u s a b l e o r comparable
print?
A Yes. From my notes -- well, from my r e p o r t , I was
able to get them off of, uh, about f i v e different
items in the vehicle. For one, urn, there was a -- a
crunchy granola wrapper that 1 was able to get a -- a
latent print off of that was suitable. Uh, one of
the Aquafina water bottles that w e r e in t h e r e .
The, urn, urn, b l a c k p l a s t i c CD case,
which is right there, and another partially full

bottle of Aquafina water.
Q And from these items from the interior of the

v e h i c l e , w e r e you a b l e t o match with any of the
known samples provided to you during this
investigation?
A No, I was not.
Q And, specifically, later, you were provided w i t h
Brendan Dassey's prints? Again, palm prints and
94
fingerprints?
A That's correct.
Q Were you able to match a n y t h i n g from those

interior items, which -- with the known, uh,
sample from Brendan Dassey?
A NO, I was n o t .
Q Do you recall, at anytime during this

investigation, when you were a s k e d to assist law
enforcement, were you ever asked to, urn, examine
and determine if there were any prints on shell
casings?
A No, I was n o t .
Q So, if I were to show you a box o f s h e l l c a s i n g s ,
you would never have looked a t t h o s e ; c o r r e c t ?
A No.
Q So, you would have no idea if there were any
available prints, e i t h e r latent or otherwise,
t h a t could be drawn from those casings?
A No.
Q I'm g o i n g to show you what's been marked Exhibit
82 on the big screen, and do you recall, at
anytime during your involvement in the

investigation, having an opportunity to, urn,
examine and determine if there were any usable
prints from the item thatvs on the screen?
95
A Yes. The headboard was submitted to t h e l a b , and I
processed that. And I was a b l e to develop, uh, one
print suitable for comparison, and identified that
one as, urn, being from Steven Avery.
Q So that was t h e only print that you were a b l e to

find?
A That's correct.
Q I'm going to show you what's been marked a s

Exhibit 107. Do you recall, at anytime during
your involvement in this investigation, being
provided with this B l a c k j a c k creeper in the
middle of the picture?
A No, I was not.
Q So, if there were any prints, you w o u l d n ' t be

a b l e t o t e l l u s whether or not there were any
t h e r e ; correct?
A No. I never examined that item.
Q D o you recall, s p e c i f i c a l l y , what i t e m s were
actually provided to you to look at?
A The o n l y other one that was provided to me, that I
didn't collect m y s e l f out of the vehicle, I believe,
was the headboard.
Q So, no leg irons or handcuffs were provided to

you?
A No, t h e y were n o t .
96
Q The gun, i t s e l f , was not provided t o you --
A No.
Q -- to look at?
A No, it was n o t .
Q This bleach b o t t l e here?

A No.
Q Okay. I suppose I could go through each item of

evidence with you, and the answer would be you
didn't look at a n y of -- anything else other than

what you've a l r e a d y t e s t i f i e d t o ?
Q And no known -- or no p r i n t s matched Brendan

Dassey; correct?
A No, they did n o t .
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Okay. I have nothing

else, Judge. T h a n k you.
THE COURT: Cross.
ATTORNEY GAHN: Thank you, Judge.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
Q D o you do any t r a i n i n g i n , u h , DNA, uh, l i f t i n g

prints a r o u n d the s t a t e o r for any l a w
enforcement agencies?
A I -- I do t r a i n i n g i n , urn, the evidence tech school.
At times, I'll go in there a n d teach latent print
97
comparison and latent p r i n t development.
Q And when you t e a c h , urn, a t t h e t e c h -- the
e v i d e n c e t e c h n i c i a n schools, do you teach them
which surfaces are more amenable t o g e t t i n g
prints from t h a n o t h e r s ?
A Yes, I do. I give them my experience as f a r a s what

I have and have n o t been a b l e t o g e t p r i n t s from i n
the p a s t .
Q And do you believe t h a t t h e evidence t e c h n i c i a n s ,

a f t e r a t t e n d i n g t h a t t r a i n i n g , are capable of
making t h o s e d e c i s i o n s on what t o s e n d f o r
possible p r i n t a n a l y s i s ?
A I would assume s o , y e s .
Q Could you tell the jurors some of the f a c t o r s

t h a t p l a y i n t o , uh, w h e t h e r a s u r f a c e might be a
good surface to capture a fingerprint?
A Well, actually, it depends on two t h i n g s . I t depends
upon t h e surface, and i t a l s o depends on -- on t h e
n a t u r e of t h e p e r s o n r s s k i n . Uh, some people with
normally very d r y hands don't leave lot of

fingerprints. Uh, o r i f t h e y have very rough hands,
l e t ' s s a y t h e y ' r e c o n s t r u c t i o n w o r k e r s o r brick
masons o r something, t h a t ' s g o i n g to erode and wear
down the fingerprints, they leave very bad
impressions.
98
Urn, the b e s t surfaces that we have to
develop prints off would be something that's very
smooth, urn, such as, glass, uh, uh, vehicle side
was a -- was a good medium for it. Uh, the

headboard I was l u c k y to get a print. Wooden
items usually don't do s o well.

Uh, very, very small items are
difficult, because it doesn't leave enough of
a -- a -- enough of a fingerprint pattern on them
to be able to identify. Uh, we get s y r i n g e s in

all the time, and they want to get the t o p of t h e
syringes to see if we can develop prints on
those. And I have. B u t there's j u s t n o t enough
i n d i v i d u a l characteristics t o p u t i n t h a t p a t t e r n
area t o be able to identify the print.
Q I'm going to ask, urn, Detective Wiegert t o just

b r i n g you up one of our e x h i b i t s , uh, t h a t
Mr. Fremgen t a l k e d to you about, and what --

Exhibit 1 2 8 . And I'd a s k you t o j u s t , uh, l o o k
a t -- T h e s e are shell casings which were
recovered from the garage of Steven Avery. Urn,
could you t a l k t o t h e jurors a l i t t l e bit about
your, uh, opinion on the chances of getting
fingerprints from an item that s i z e and, uh,
e x p l a i n t h e factors involved i n that?
99
A I suppose it is possible. I have probably p r o c e s s e d
over a thousand of these, and n o t one time have I
ever g o t t e n a fingerprint s u i t a b l e for comparison.
The best I've ever been able to do is maybe get a
little b i t of ridge detail on t h e r e . B u t it -- it
w o u l d n ' t be enough for an identification at all.
Another factor i n v o l v e d is, when these
are shot, t h e y g e t h o t , and t h e heat i s n ' t v e r y
good on a fingerprint e i t h e r . So you have t w o
f a c t o r s going against them. One, t h e size of it,
and, two, what the heat does to the fingerprint.
Q And are these examples of your experiences that

you teach evidence technicians when you go t o the
technical schools and teach?
A Yes, they are.
Q And this is what the evidence technicians at the

law -- local l a w enforcement agencies learn f r o m
you?
A Well, e i t h e r from me or whoever happens to be
t e a c h i n g their class at that time, y e s .
Q And t h e y , t h e r e f o r e , a r e capable o f making

decisions on what to send forward to the crime
lab f o r a n a l y s i s ?
A Yes, they are.
Q Can fingerprints -- prints be cleaned off an
100
object or wiped off?
A Oh, most assuredly. They're very fragile. They're
made 98.5 percent water. Uh, so wiping them o f f ,
it'd be very easy.
Q And when you, uh, examined the Rav 4, Teresa

Halbach's R a v 4, did you also -- did you,
yourself, do t h e inventory of t h o s e items that
you found in the Rav 4 ?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did you know that it was Teresa Halbach's Rav
4?
A Yes, I did.
Q And, urn, the -- the fingerprints that you found,

uh, you found identifiable p r i n t s , I believe, you
testified to, on two water bottles; is that
correct?
A That's correct.
Q A CD case?
A That's correct.
Q And a granola wrapper?

A That's correct.
Q And could -- and those are items t h a t v e r y w e l l

c o u l d have belonged to Teresa Halbach?
A I suppose so, yes.
Q And she would have handled t h o s e ?
101
A That's correct.
Q B u t d i d you have exemplars of Teresa Halbach to
compare?
A No, I didn't. She had no record on file.
Q Did, urn -- does there -- does a time ever come

when you make decisions on w h e t h e r to examine
something f o r a f i n g e r p r i n t or maybe send it for
a DNA analysis f i r s t , or maybe do a DNA f i r s t and
some other tests second? Do those questions come
up?
A It comes up all the t i m e , y e s .
Q Are you aware t h a t , urn -- do you know who Sherry

Culhane i s ?
A Yes, I do. She's the section head of o u r DNA
section.
Q And, um, when you d i d t h e i n v e n t o r y of the Rav 4,

I'm -- d i d you observe t h e r e were blood stains
and blood s t a i n p a t t e r n s in that Rav 4 ?
A Yes, I did.
Q And do you know, uh, whether Sherry Culhane

tested those blood stain patterns?
A Yes, s h e did.
Q Now, do you know whether, urn, she determined

whether the blood of Steven Avery was found in
that Rav 4?
102
A Yes, I do. She -- I've seen her report. She --
t h e r e was her -- his blood in there.
Q And, um, Nick Stahlke, of your office, also

i s s u e d a report t h a t , uh, t h e blood s t a i n
p a t t e r n s he found w e r e i n d i c a t i v e of an actively
bleeding person; correct?
A That's correct.
Q So, uh, is it fair to assume that, uh, Steven

Avery w a s inside that Rav 4?
A I believe s o , yes.
Q Did you f i n d h i s f i n g e r p r i n t s i n t h e R a v 4?
A No, I d i d not.
Q So, t h e a b s e n c e o f someone's fingerprints does
not mean that the person w a s not a t t h e c r i m e
scene, does it?
A Not at all.
Q Thank you, s i r .
ATTORNEY GAHN: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Any redirect, Counsel?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: J u s t a few. Excuse me.
Just a f e w .
REDIRECT -NATION
Q Do you -- do you know w h e t h e r o r n o t , uh, Brendan

Dassey has characteristics of his hands that are
103
d r y or greasy?
A I would have to examine h i s hands. I -- I couldn't
t e l l you t h a t .
Q You can certainly say, however, that, as to t h e

three items in the vehicle, they did not match
the known sample of the fingerprint of Brendan
Dassey?
A No, they did n o t .
Q Now, you mentioned t h a t , often, smoother surfaces

are easier to e i t h e r find a visible or even a
l a t e n t print?
A Yes, they are.
Q Uh, would smooth, steel handcuffs be something

t h a t m i g h t be able to extract a fingerprint from?
A They could, possibly. Again, I'd have to examine t h e
handcuffs to be able to tell you if t h a t s u r f a c e
would be good enough. Or if they were in good shape,
uh, there's a pretty good chance I could find them.

But I've seen some of these c u f f s that t h e finish was
worn off and they were rusted, and in a situation
l i k e that, it'd be more difficult.
Q Would these, for instance, be something that you

might be able to extract a fingerprint from?
A I believe so, yes.
Q And I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit
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92. It's actually Crime Lab Number C J - 2 ?
A Okay.
Q B u t you weren't provided with these, uh --

A No.
Q -- to review?
A This -- this is the f i r s t time I've seen them.
Q Thank you.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: N o t h i n g else.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY GAHN:
Q And, again, items can be cleaned or wiped o f f --

uh, fingerprints wiped off or cleaned from an
item?
A That's correct.
Q Thank you.
ATTORNEY GAHN: That's all I have also.
Mr. Fremgen, any additional witnesses this
afternoon?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: We'll have a
psychologist who's prepared to t e s t i f y at --

starting at 8 : 3 0 in the morning. Take a -- p r o b a b l y
majority of tomorrow.
THE COURT: All right. I take it that's a
no f o r this afternoon?
105
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Sorry. No for this
afternoon, correct.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, ladies and
gentlemen, I'm going to e x c u s e you at this t i m e .
Remember, you are not to talk about the case or
anything y o u v v e heard or anything connected with it.
Thank you.
(Jury o u t at 2 : 1 4 p . m . )
THE COURT: Counsel, before coming out here
on the record, w e have a b r i e f -- w e had a brief
discussion in chambers. It's my understanding, uh,

there's some matters we should make of record this
afternoon. M r . Kratz, I'm going to turn to you
first. You may or may not have a motion or an
argument?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I do, Judge. If I
could have just a moment to grab my materials.
Thank you, Judge. As this Court recalls, a
motion was argued in a pretrial manner regarding

the admissibility of testimony of a Dr. Robert
Gordon. Dr. Gordon provided this Court through,
urn, videotape testimony, uh, with something

called an offer of proof, which is expected trial
testimony, and based an opinion on what
Dr. Gordon believed evidence at this trial was
106
going t o e s t a b l i s h .
D r . Gordon, as t h i s Court knows, uh,
has, uh, o p i n e d i n a , uh, written report, and in
his o f f e r of proof, that, uh, Brendan Dassey, uh,
was, in fact, an individual who was, uh, using

his term now, "vulnerable to suggestibility".
The State had objected in a, uh, oral
argument, as well as a, uh, written p r o v i s i o n s to
the Court, to D r . Gordonts t e s t i m o n y , n o t i n g t h a t

t h i s kind o f evidence has n o t been, uh, admitted
in t h e state of Wisconsin, a t l e a s t t o t h i s
point. And whatever, uh, m a r g i n a l r e l e v a n c e
there may be, uh, is c e r t a i n l y outweighed b y the
danger of confusion, uh, of t h e j u r y , o r u n f a i r

prejudice.
Urn, nonetheless, uh, the Court, uh,

r e a s o n e d , i n a p r e t r i a l decision, that Dr. Gordon
would be a l l o w e d t o t e s t i f y , uh, a s t o t h e area

of s u g g e s t i b i l i t y , a g a i n , based upon, uh, an
o f f e r of p r o o f .
Uh, I r e c a l l , and I ' m sure, urn, the
C o u r t , u h , has a recollection as to, urn, my
argument, b o t h oral and w r i t t e n , uh, cautioning,
uh, this Court a s t o i t s p r e t r i a l r u l i n g p r i o r t o
e v e n knowing what t h e t r i a l t e s t i m o n y was going
107
to be, especially as it relates to foundation or
to relevance. And what I argued, Judge, was that

it's going to depend on who is going to testify
in this trial that Brendan Dassey's statements
were the product of suggestibility.

In other words, that somebody had to
come before this Court and claim t h a t Brendan
Dassey's statements to law enforcement officials,
uh, were, in fact, the product of law enforcement
behavior, law enforcement, uh, suggestibility,
or, at the very least, some coercive practices by
law enforcement, for Dr. Gordon's testimony to
ever be relevant.
Uh, relevance, uh, of course, is, uh --
is well-defined, and this Court included, uh,
that in its, uh, pretrial ruling. And I'm not

going to, uh, reargue or belabor that. I agree
with the Court's, uh, definition and explanation

as to relevance.
Uh, now, however, we're at the p o i n t in
the trial where we don't have to guess as to what

t h e trial testimony is going to be. We don't
have to call it an offer of proof anymore, or,
uh, expect or, urn, uh, presuppose what some trial
testimony may be. We've now heard what the
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d e f e n s e t h e o r y of the c a s e is, what the defense
version is, and as, uh, announced by t h i s Court,
and as predicted by the State in my written
brief, Brendan Dassey, himself, has testified and
has provided to the C o u r t , uh, with a version of

events or an explanation as to, uh, the
admissions, or what we've r e f e r r e d to as the
confession, given, uh, in this case.
Uh, importantly, Judge, uh, Mr. Dassey
t o d a y , uh, when t e s t i f y i n g i n t h i s t r i a l , said
nothing of suggestibility despite Mr. Fremgen's
best efforts, uh, in continuing to a s k M r . Dassey

a b o u t , uh, things like suggestibility.
Mr. Dassey's responses, when he didn't say, "I

don't know", urn, Mr. Dassey's, uh, response was
something called confabulation. That is, that he
made it up. That he made up the, uh, version of
events that he told law enforcement o f f i c i a l s .
Confabulation is, of course, urn,
absolutely a separate, uh, concept than
suggestibility. Uh, and when Mr. Dassey and the
d e f e n s e , t h r o u g h M r . Fremgen and, uh,
Mr. Edelstein, who, I assume, knew what

Mr. Dassey was going to testify about today,
present t h a t t h e o r y of d e f e n s e , and t h a t t h e o r y
109
is, uh, devoid of any mention of suggestibility,
well, then, Dr. Gordon's testimony just simply no
longer becomes relevant.
Uh, this Court's pretrial, uh, uh, order
and ruling, which, uh, the State respects, uh,
very much, must simply -- uh, is no longer based
upon, uh, what the trial evidence is in this
case.
When Mr. Dassey explains, uh, that, uh,
the version of events given to law enforcement
is, uh, the product of -- of fabrication, or even

if, uh -- if we believe that it's the product of,
uh, some memory several years ago of some book
that he may or may not, uh, have read, uh, it is
just not suggestibility.
Uh, I then, uh, and at this time, renew
my motion, ask the Court to reconsider its
finding as to Dr. Gordon's testimony. We're
asking that Dr. Gordon's testimony be excluded.
We don't believe there is a n y foundation in this
record, uh, nor is there any relevance, uh, to,
uh, Dr. Gordon's ultimate opinion that, uh,
Mr. Dassey is vulnerable to suggestibility.
Mow, we understand that this Court has
already limited Dr. Gordon's testimony. This
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Court's already previously indicated that
Dr. Gordon can't talk a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e
confession was t r u e or false. That is, uh,
whether it was a f a l s e confession. Can't t a l k
about a coercion or the circumstances

surrounding, uh, the, uh, interrogation. And
although there are experts that c a n t a l k about

that, Dr. Gordon a d m i t s that he's not one of
those kind of, uh, individuals. But his testing
and his opinion, uh, as limited to
suggestibility, uh, simply, uh, is not, uh,
relevant. Would ask the Court revisit and
exclude the testimony.
Alternatively, Judge, uh, we are asking,

if the Court continues to allow Dr. Gordon's, uh,
testimony, uh, in this case, despite, uh, the
lack of foundation for his testimony, uh, we

would ask the Court, uh, reassert or restate, uh,
just what it is that Dr. Gordon can testify
about. Just what is relevant about Dr. Gordon's
testimony based upon the record currently, uh,
before this Court.
We certainly don't want to be in a
position where we're needlessly objecting during,

urn, uh, direct examination, uh, or that the, uh,
111
S t a t e , unnecessarily, uh, has to cross-examining
-- cross-examine, uh, Dr. Gordon, uh, on issues
that, uh, may, in fact, not be allowed through
this Court's, urn -- this Court's o r d e r s .
Lastly, Judge, at the conclusion of this
motion, that is, at the conclusion of m y motion
to exclude, or the renewal of my motion to
exclude, uh, I would ask, also, to p l a c e on t h e
record the, uh, State's request to call, if
necessary, rebuttal witnesses.
But I have, uh, unfortunately, gotten
ahead of myself, and I'm just alerting the Court

that we do have that issue to discuss as well.
That's all the, uh, comments I have regarding

Dr. Gordon's issue. Thank you, Judge.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Uh, just a little -- a
brief one. Well, I'll try to be brief. The State,
uh, began its, uh, argument by indicating that, uh,

urn, they expected Dr. Gordon to testify as to what
evidence would indicate in this trial. Well, I
don't think that's ever been what we've offered to
this Court. And I'm certain that's not what the
order of t h i s C o u r t i s .
What we've offered, previously, is that
112
the doctor would testify as to his conclusions
based upon his evaluation of Brendan, h i s review
of the c o l l a t e r a l information, which i n c l u d e d ,
uh, the videotape statement that was shown in

this court, as w e l l as other statements t h a t had
not been provided to the jury, a n d he would a l s o ,
uh, t e s t i f y a s to the different tools of
evaluation, the different, urn, urn, tests that he
actually conducted, and -- and t h e purpose for
those tests, including the Gudjonsson
Suggestibility Test.
We intend to offer the same testimony
with the same limitations that the Court imposed

on his testimony p e r the order of April 5. The
State's argument today is that there needs to be
additional foundation, essentially, or that there
h a s n ' t been a s u f f i c i e n t f o u n d a t i o n placed on the
record for the doctor's testimony.

Part of what the State argues is --
well, I -- I think maybe he misspoke, but
Mr. Kratz said foundation as to suggestion or

coercion. We've never once indicated that
Dr. Gordon would ever testify as to any coercion.
In fact, he even, in the offer of proof, said I

don't have the ability to do that a n d would n o t
113
offer his, uh, uh, opinion as to the officer's,
uh, techniques in regards to coercion.
So that was never an option. It was

never going to be something o f f e r e d to t h e C o u r t .
The indication that we provided to the Court,
with the limitations in the order, simply that he
would be testifying about the issue of

suggestibility, or vulnerable to suggestion, as I
think he referenced in his report.
So far, the testimony on direct and on
cross of the defendant was that, as to many
questions, he answered, I don't know why. When
asked why he would a d m i t to a serious o f f e n s e ,
such as sexual assault, or first degree
intentional homicide, his answer is, I donlt know
why.
At -- I probably could count up, on the
transcript, and come up with at least 2 0 or 25
times t h a t that came out. There were times in
final cross by M r . Fallon that -- that this idea
of confabulation came up, but there's equal or
more, urn, testimony in regards to why he did what
he did, and his answers were, I don't know why.
Our intention is to wrap u p what we've
started with all the witnesses, with the --
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Officer Wiegert and with Detective OINeill, f o r
that matter. Attorney Edelstein's questioning of
the -- at least with Detective Wiegert was,
essentially, 90 percent suggestibility issues.
Promises, lies, suggestion, urn, and leading.
With Dr. -- with Detective OINeill,
there was a number o f questions about suggestion,
leading, promises. In fact, the State brought up
the subject when the State says there's devoid of

anything in the record about suggestibility. The
State, on cross of the school counselor, asked
her about suggestibility. So the issue has been
raised by the State as well. We would certainly
object t o the r u l i n g changing the original
ruling.
And as far as offering to the State some

sort of a , urn -- a road map of where I intend to
go, or some, uh, formalized transcript o f the
question and answers that I intend to -- to
elicit from the -- the doctor, I g u e s s I would
o f f e r , a g a i n , we will follow what the C o u r t
o r d e r e d , the o f f e r of proof w i t h the limitations
that this Court has set upon the testimony, and

as to providing to the State some sort of h e a d s
up as -- so to speak, I guess I would j u s t
115
mirnmick what the State has told me t h r o u g h o u t
this trial, I'll question my witnesses how I
want, without having to answer to the State.
And, so, I -- I would follow the order
that the Court placed on us, and I don't believe

t h a t t h e r e has been, uh, t h i s l a c k of foundation
that the State is suggesting with the -- the
Court, now, to change the ruling before i n
regards to Dr. Gordon.
THE COURT: Mr. Kratz, a n y response?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: I don't have any.
Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: A11 right. Uh, is -- both
parties have noted the Court has had an opportunity,
prior to this day, to take up t h e issue of
Dr. Gordon and any testimony that he might have to
offer. The C o u r t ruled t h a t D r . Gordon's
testimony -- and -- and I did this based on a couple
of things, or based on, uh, the instance of seeing a
proposed o f f e r of proof from t h e defense by way of
DVD and, as well, uh, the testimony educed by
Mr. Kratz at a cross-examination of Dr. Gordon.

Uh, under Section 9-0-7-0-2 of the
Wisconsin S t a t u t e s , uh, expert w i t n e s s testimony
is permitted if the p r o f f e r e d testimony is
116
relevant, if it will assist the trier of fact in
some way, shape or form, if the expert is
qualified, and if the testimony that's going to
be o f f e r e d is not s u p l e r -- superfluous or a
waste of t i m e . T h i s a l l s t e m s f r o m a case called
State v s . , uh, Walstad at 119 Wis. 2d 483.
I found, uh, initially, that all of

these q u a l i f i c a t i o n s were met. Uh, there also is
a secondary line of reasoning that can
occasionally be employed. Namely, that, by
virtue of the 6th Amendment of the
U.S. Constitution and Article 9 Section 7 of the
Wisconsin Constitution, a defendant should have
the right to present a defense. And while I
didn't make a finding, directly, on that point, I
think I a l l u d e d to it, a t least collaterally, i n
arriving at the ruling.
Mr. K r a t z says, uh, in effect, that,
based on t h e testimony o f f e r e d by this defendant
in person today, that the foundation for any kind

of testimony from Dr. Gordon with respect to
suggestibility is, in effect, vitiated. That is
to say, taken away.
Uh, that his testimony -- uh,
Dr. Gordon's testimony no longer becomes relevant
117
and, thus, it misses on the first, uh, uh, step,
the first prong, of the test of whether or not
it -- it should be used in this case.
Uh, I'm not going to recede f r o m t h e
ruling that I -- I handed down before. I think
what we, uh, have, at best today, i s testimony
that doesn't go to the admissibility of anything
Dr. Gordon has to say.
And, again, what Dr. Gordon is -- a s I
understand it -- going to testify to, that based
on a number of tests that he administered this
defendant, based on the age of the defendant,
based on the defendant I s , uh, limited, uh,
cognitive abilities, that this defendant falls in
the category that, scientifically, has been
adjudged as being a category of persons being
more suggestible or vulnerable to, uh, same
things t h a t a r e n ' t necessarily true.
I think that Dr. Gordon's testimony is
sill relevant. I think that he is a qualified
expert. I think that his familiarity with the,
uh, Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale, and the

other t e s t s that were given to, uh, support
whatever opinions he's going to give, uh, are all
as good today as they were before.
118
Now, w i t h that said, it may be, again,
that while his testimony is cer -- I b e l i e v e
admissible, uh, i t i s up to t h e j u r y as to what
weight t h a t testimony should -- should g i v e .
They are t h e -- t h e y a r e t h e persons that
determine the weight.
I also find that I -- I do not believe,

based on anything I've heard today o r d u r i n g the
c o u r s e of t h e t r i a l , t h a t h i s -- his testimony
would be, uh, s u p e r f l u o u s .
Accordingly, I'm g o i n g t o deny, uh, t h e
Staters motion to exclude his testimony.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I -- and -- and
I -- and I don't mean to, uh -- t o t a k e i s s u e

w i t h the C o u r t , you mentioned t h a t t h e d o c t o r
would testify t o being vulnerable to saying
things t h a t weren't necessarily t r u e . I think
that's e x a c t l y what t h e C o u r t s a i d h e c o u l d n o t
testify a b o u t . H e ' s vulnerable t o
s u g g e s t i b i l i t y , b u t w h e t h e r i t ' s true --
THE COURT: I --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- o r not t r u e i s
something this doctor cannot t e s t i f y .
THE COURT: Right. And -- and 1 did say
that, and, uh, t h a n k you. I T 1 l -- I'll sharpen
119
that up. He -- he can't testify as to what this
defendant said as to whether it was true or

false. He can testify as to the suggestibility,
the vulnerability, based on the factors, but he

cannot -- he cannot utter an opinion as to the --
the, uh, truthfulness or falsity of anything this
defendant said.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. As
to my, uh, second, uh, purpose for, urn, alerting
the Court as to, uh, the State's, uh, intent, uh,

with, uh, this Court, uh, reaffirming its ruling,
the State does intend to, uh, and does offer at
this time, two, uh, rebuttal, uh, witnesses.
Uh, one is a, um, clinical psychologist,
who will directly, uh, rebut Dr. Gordon's

testimony as to the testing, IQ, and what, uh,
uh, opinions, uh, may be drawn, uh, therefrom.
His name is Dr. James Armentrout. Uh, we,
previously -- uh, previously, meaning earlier
today. I don't mean to indicate, because of the
rebuttal nature, that it was, uh, o t h e r than

today, but, uh, informed defense counsel of o u r
intent to, uh, call Dr. Armentrout as a rebuttal
witness.
But, secondly, Judge, and something t h a t
120
we have alerted the Court and, uh, c o u n s e l t o ,
uh, e a r l i e r , uh, was o u r i n t e n t t o c a l l a n
e x p e r t , uh, i n t h e , urn, areas as t o t h e
interrogative p r o c e s s . T h i s C o u r t may r e c a l l , a s
p a r t of Dr. Gordon's, uh, offer of proof,
Dr. Gordon i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e was n o t a n e x p e r t on
i s s u e s of i n t e r r o g a t i o n s t r a t e g y o r circumstance,
b u t that s u c h e x p e r t s do e x i s t . D r . Gordon, uh,
conceded t h a t f a c t t o b o t h -- uh, i n c o u r t and on
h i s , uh, DVDs.
The, uh, suggestion, and t h e effect of
the matter i s , t h e n , uh, as t o the area of
suggestibility, uh, there is a -- a prong, if you

will, as t o the testing, and -- a n d t h e , uh, urn,
IQ, and the age, and the, uh, vulnerability t o
s u g g e s t i b i l i t y t h a t p s y c h o l o g i s t s t a l k about, but
t h e other part of that that Dr. Gordon t a l k e d
about was t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s surrounding t h e

interrogation, the strategies, and, uh -- and t h e
like, t h a t , uh -- that were employed, and w h a t ,

urn, after reviewing a specific, urn,
i n t e r r o g a t i o n , uh, what o p i n i o n s can be drawn
therefrom.
S t a t e intends, as the defense and the
Court knows, uh, to call a, uh, Mr. Joseph
121
Buckley, uh, the president, as I believe, of, uh,
Reid and Associates, uh, author, uh, and expert,
uh, on issues of the interrogative process.
Uh, with the Court, uh, having, uh,
reaffirmed this ruling, uh, we simply offer that.
If the Court, uh, needs, uh, o r t h e Court wishes

s o m e further, uh, offer of proof or sharpening
of, uh, that partic -- uh, uh, Mr. Buckleyls, uh,
relevance, or his intended testimony, we can
c e r t a i n l y do that. A report has been tendered to
the Court and to, uh, the defense as to, uh,
Mr. Buckley's, uh, i n t e n d e d testimony. If I

could have just a moment here, Judge.
And, Judge, uh, you may want to j u s t

take judicial notice of the report of Mr. Buckley
that has, uh, been provided to t h e Court, should
Mr. Buckley's testimony be allowed. We'll

certainly have that marked as a trial exhibit a n d
will be officially offered a t that time.
That's all I have as to, uh, again, j u s t
by way of, uh, alerting the Court a n d Counsel,
uh, a s to the State's intended rebuttal case.

Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, does the
defense wish to be heard on this, now? Rebuttal, of
122
course, is at the discretion of the Court, and it --
it may be you want to wait until you hear what

Dr. Gordon has to say. Although, I suspect,
Mr. Buckley's rebuttal may have as much to do with
the cross-examination of Investigator Wiegert as it

does with anything that, uh -- that Dr. Gordon may
say.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Up to t h e Court. I -- I

don't t h i n k that Dr. Gordon's testimony,
necessarily, is going to be indicative of what our
position is with, uh, uh, Mr. Mead (phonetic).
Urn -- Or, B u c k l e y ? I'm sorry. Mr. B u c k l e y .
THE COURT: Yeah.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Uh, o u r -- essentially,
and l e t me first answer the first comment about, uh,
D r . Armentrout. Um, t h e o n l y t h i n g I would ask from
the State, i f , a t t h e t i m e h e testifies, i f there is
any sort of summary of his, uh, impressions laid to
some written form, that we be provided a copy prior
to his testimony. Whether that be the second he
sits down, however the State wishes to provide it,
would be great. Also a CV. I mean, we provided our

curriculum v i t a e of our doctor. If we could have
Dr. ArmentroutTs sometime before he testifies, we
would appreciate that as well.
123
However, as to, urn, uh, Mr. Buckley, we
have three essential positions as to why we don't
think i t r s relevant. Number one, it's not a
unique subject that this trier of fact, the jury,
needs assistance to understand.
Urn, in fact, they've had two witnesses,

already, talk about it. Both detectives.
Detective O'Neill and -- and, uh, Investigator
Wiegert have testified that they are trained in
deceptive practices, urn, superior knowledge,
whatever language is used to explain why they

lied, promised, lead, or suggest to a -- a -- a
interviewee in order to get information or
extract information they want.
So, itls already -- it's a p o i n t , I

won't say, necessarily, cumulative, but it
certainly has been, um, uh, developed and
addressed by the State.
It also seems to be somewhat of a
vouching of the State's witness. Officer -- uh,
Mr. B u c k l e y would be testifying, essentially,

that the officer's testimony that this is how
we're trained and this is just simply, uh, uh, an
interview technique would be a -- be an o f f e r to
sim -- simply, urn, vouch for the voracity of the
124
officer's t e s t i m o n y i n t h a t regard.
And w e a l s o b e l i e v e that, uh, there are
some comments in the r e p o r t a b o u t what i s

corroborated and what is n o t t h a t impedes and
i n f r i n g e s upon what t h i s jury's role i s . And --
and t h e a t t o r n e y s c a n c e r t a i n l y suggest t o t h e
j u r y , t h i s i s corroborated and this i s
uncorroborated. And t h a t ' s f i n e . But 1 think
i t 7 s different having a witness get up there and

say, I've reviewed what the police o f f i c e r s did
in this case, and let m e t e l l you, j u r y , t h i s i s

what t h e y d i d r i g h t , a n d t h i s i s what t h e y found,
and this i s why you can find this p e r s o n guilty.
I don't t h i n k that is the role of a expert.
Experts should be o f f e r i n g some sort o f
testimony that, number one, has to be r e l e v a n t t o
some s o r t of m a t e r i a l issue, which w e d o n ' t
think, necessarily, is -- t h a t there i s enough,
uh, w i t h t h i s offer as of yet, and, number, two,
we c e r t a i n l y have t o say there i s n o t h i n g that
indicates t h a t t h i s trier of fact needs
a s s i s t a n c e t o understand t h a t .
In f a c t , I b e l i e v e , i n opening,
Mr. Kratz mentioned t o t h e j u r y , comments about
o f f i c e r s ' , uh, questioning and why people don't
125
a d m i t to things that they didn't do, especially
as serious as a homicide, because it's j u s t human
nature. You a l l understand t h a t . Quote,
unquote. That was what Mr. Kratz said to the
jury.
Well, if they understand it, then why do
they need an expert? So I don't think it's
necessary.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kratz, getting

to you, uh, w i t h r e s p e c t t o D r . A r m e n t r o u t , C o u n s e l
was asking for a copy of h i s CV and, as well, any
s o r t of summary that you might be able to supply,
even if it's at the 11th hour? Are you able to
accommodate him on both those counts?
ATTORNEY J O N E S : Well, Judge, there is no
w r i t t e n report. There is no summary. Uh,

Dr. Armentrout's, uh, opinions will be based, uh,
solely and entirely upon what's been provided, uh,
by Dr. Gordon. So, the -- the -- the m a t e r i a l s
that, uh, uh, Dr. Armentrout will be drawing from,

they already have.
The CV, uh, is something that I will ask
to be faxed, and w e ' l l t r y t o g e t that, uh --

we'll try t o g e t that, uh, h e r e , Judge, and --
and, uh, accommodate, out of courtesy, uh, uh,
126
the defense.
Urn, did you ask me something else?
I've --
THE COURT: No.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- f o r g o t t e n . Then

I'll be q u i e t .
THE COURT: No. We'll -- w e v l l g e t to

the -- t h e i s s u e of what, if a n y t h i n g , Mr. B u c k l e y
can t e s t i f y t o based, uh -- based on, i n part, what
w e h e a r tomorrow, and, i n part, uh -- I want to
review t h e -- the -- t h e r e p o r t , uh, again. Report
was handed -- I believe I g o t it on F r i d a y from --
from the S t a t e .
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Might I suggest, Judge,
that on Wednesday we might convene i n c o u r t ,
perhaps, a t , uh, 8:00 a . m . and, uh, get some
direction. We expect Mr. B u c k l e y t o t e s t i f y i n

the morning, and I t h i n k t h a t i s probably
a p p r o p r i a t e that everybody, n o t j u s t t h e State,
b u t that the defense, h a s fair notice a b o u t the,
uh, scope of what he'll be allowed to t e s t i f y
about.
THE COURT: That's fine.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any o t h e r matters today,
127
gentlemen?
ATTORNEY KEIATZ: Nothing f o r today.
Thank you, J u d g e .
THE COURT: All right? I'll see you
tomorrow at 8:30.
( C o u r t stands a d j o u r n e d at 2 : 4 2 p.m.)
)SS.
I, Jennifer K. Hau, Official C o u r t
R e p o r t e r f o r Circuit Court Branch 3 and the State
of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that I reported
the foregoing matter and that t h e foregoing
t r a n s c r i p t has b e e n c a r e f u l l y prepared by me w i t h
m y computerized stenographic notes as taken by me
transcription thereafter transcribed, and that it
i s a t r u e and c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e
proceedings had i n said matter to t h e best of my
Dated this jtd , 2007.

day of -i\lrlmb.v
129
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102-4 [I] 78n 74-78 [I] 316 admissions [I] 109ff
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b o s [l] t5n 65n 88/21 collateral [l] 11313
both [ l l ] 16/5 3W9 47119 W 0 58/21 7U3 card [l] 84/25 collaterally [ll 117116
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brother 141 14/14 14/15 S1A8 S l n l chance jl] l W l 8 wnceded 111 12YP
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buiIding 121 30/15 30118 chemicals [Z] 8316 8411 connected [I] 1W6
burglar 111 85/15 Chopper [ll 19/18 connection [l] 18/25
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bur [l2] 1716 17110 17112 17t24 1 ~ 18n2 CIRCUIT [3] ~l un 12915 Constitution [2] 117112 117113
18/10 18/10 18/22 20/123/22 23/25 circumstance 111 121ff constitutional [2] 3 1 #3
business 131 8/10 13/15 13/17 circumstances [21 11W 12Y18 construction [I] 9W22
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cabin [2] W15 6Z2.3 claim [1] 1WM contrast [I] 83121
cabinet [3] 3013 30/23 3116 clarify [l] 3Off convene jl] 127115
cver 1251 zjru 2414 3U17 W ;ISIY 35/23 family 181 W l l 134 ldllr 13/12 5611177f.2
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drove 131 2318 29/25 31t24 exact [2] 67110 81/23 fared [1] 126m
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duffel 111 2W24 examination [20] W4 3/53/16 319 3/10 3111 February [ l I] 3612 45/18 45/19 45/19 4921
duly [2] 1 m 79117 3/12 1U12 46/22 56/5 5#2169/18 74114 4925 4618 46/10 7114 W12
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examples 111 100112 feet Ill] 1414 20/1129/5 29n7 29121 3U1
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early [l] 1114 ezcluslon [I] 81/21 field [5] I# 14110 8&22 87115 87/16
easier 111 1W10 errcuw [q 2411 38n2 62A4 8914 103t20 fifteen [2] 29/17 36Q1
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education [l] 16110 73/34 9014 9318 9319 !&20 9619 99/19 find 1121 7111 31116 33116 81118 8517 91117
educed 111 11m1 f04nS 122118 W 6 103/11104/10 104118 119n I N 1 3
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efforts Ill 109112 exist 111 121B h e [6] 10114 44/15 75114 94/41 2 5 1 8 12323
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1W18 Ps [I] 16114 36/1640110 40112 4Ot2Q 42/17 4611647t2
ensure 111 4117 fabrication [I] 1lW11 54/19 61/12 61/13 79f3 79/17 8US 88/5
entirety [I] 126/18 face [I] 63Etl 91/13 l0US 1021%10516 106114 11414
entry [l] 89113 fact 1211 9/3 4719 5716 57/17 58114 59110 11811 118n 123115 123115
equal [l] ll4t2l 6011062!2564nl66/12107/510%191LU3 fd[l] 33n
t d e [I] 98n3 11324 11518 11711 1 2 ~ 12414
9 12416 f i e [16] 1 7 17135
~ 2W15 t l n 6 2U19 21/23
especially [2] 108/1126/1 12921 125123 22.12 25l16 3920 37117 4W3 6Ot247 W 5
essential [I] I242 factor [I] 10017 78/25 86l4 94/11
essentially 151 44/16 113116 1194 12.314 factors 141 98/14 99/251W10 12014 fwe-and-a-half[1] 78/25
12421 fair (41 26t2 2 6 9 103E8 l27t20 ffoor [lI] 32/14 3315 34K 34119 35124 36112
establish [l] 10711 fairly [I) 8219 36117 36/20 36123 48/2449t2
estimate [l] 35n8 F W N [20] 1116 4/%2# 2m 44B 46/21 fluid [4] 333 61/9 61111 61/12
estimating [1] 2#3 46123 5316 53/12 58n 74/12 74/16 7514 follow 121 1152tl 1l a 4
evaluation [t] 11312 11318 75113 75/19 76/15 7 m 7/10 7Wr3 following 111 39/24
wen 161 M 9 104/l0 107nS llWIl113/34 falls 111 11m4 follows [2] 1218 79/18
126113 false 131 llln 11114 120n food 131 2015 243%20113
evening 111 22/16 falsity 111 12W6 foot 121 69/17 69/17
event [1] 7&20 familiar [I] 35/21 football [2] 14/7 14/10
even& [4] 71/13 10916 109118 110/10 familiarity 111 11?V21 forced jl] 9/24
pile 111 1W22 process 131 8 W l O 12U4 12213
0 piled [2j 3214 3214 pmessed Iq W 4 8WSt5 89t2 961210011
OUL..[U] 31117 32/21 33/24 37119 38/21, pit 141 28/21 28/22 2&24 MV23 product [4] 10815 1WB 11W11 110f 12
55/19 6M19 65/20 65/23 66/2 68/12 78/17 place [3] 3116 67/12 1lUS proffered [l] 116125
W183/5 &U7 8914 8915 96l2110618 10619 placed [3) 8916 113117 11615 promised [4] 1015 10n1 1114124/12
11M9 12QrtS PLATNTIFF [I] 114 promises [q 5/16 42tt3 4315 4316 11515
outside 141 37/13 3814 83/16 8911 planted [1] 3U4 11W
outweighed (11 107/13 plastic 161 83/16 I1511 850 85/13 89% prong [Z] 118/2 121/13
oven [l] 2W17 94A6 proof 191 106PU 10714 107I24l10SPL3
over [24] a 91P lln 2714 27D 28/5 28/16 play [S] 1 m 47/7 50118 57tt0 9U15 11324 11W2 11QStO12Y5 122J7
28117 28/18 2Nl9 W12 3W14 49116 9/12 played [9] 1Wl6 5OLZ2 5315 54/19 57/24 property f l ] 13/15
W l S 54/13 54/23 5 W 5 9 7 55/19 5U1 5916 59111 794 7514 proposed [I] 116/20
W15 76/20 100/2 playing [5j 19114 19/17 19/20 19/25 2013 Prosecutor @] 1114 1116 1/18
overruled 111 77113 plermse [lo] 414 416 lW4 12.B lu9 58/21 Prosecutors 111 4/7
own 121 581P tIW9 67l24 79115 79119 79/19 proud [q M1119 63/2363t24 6415 64/10 699
point [I21 2W 36/24116 44/10 9/13 8 1 m provide [4] 6711 91118 93/14 123P21
P . 86/14 92/21 107112 10%rt0117115 124115 provided 1191 92/15 92/21 9#21
p.m [3] W9 66/81 1 2 i 6 pointer [1] 93/15 94/24 96/11 96/19 96/24 96/23 9711 10513
PAGE 111 3n pointing [I] W4 106121 10915 11316 11415 12W16 123119
paint [3] W 6 34/11 61/17 poinb [I] 89/13 123J22 126118
pair (I] 27/25 police [12] 5512 W18 6V16414 65113 69/20 providing (21 lfrj 115/24
palm [81 Wll8W13 90113 9ytJ 9ltW 92B 6 9 M 70116 70n172/1180/10 125110 provisions [ll lWf8
9UU 94/25 poor [2] 66/4 6615 psychologist [2] 1 ~ 1 1 2 0 1 1 4
palm-print [I] W13 porous 121 83/24 84D psychologists [l] 121116
panel [I] 9W2 portion 131 5315 571t4 7514 pull 121 9B 80/2
pants [I31 77/2127/32 3713 3714 46/16 position 121 11m4 123111 purple [I] 8416
48/14 481211 49/12 5016 501%61123 6 1 M positions [I] 124n purpose [3] 4#4 1 1W 12W9
62/16 positively [I] S/5 purposes [I] 82132
PaFr 111 83/25 possible [6] 85/24 86/3 87R 88/15 98112 pursue [I] 916
part [ l l ] 1111 5411 54/3 76116 78110 84/18 1W1 put [21] 31Et2 37R 37113 46l3 4914 49/16
113/19 1 2 1 121n7
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part's [I] 6816 potential 111 89/13 VPL2 83/15 83/18 %3PU) 113t22 8419 99/14
partially [I] 94/17 pounds [lj 40P3 puttied [I] W6
partic [I] 12US pour f21 33111 3417 putty 111 8 3 5
participated [2] 4212 42P20 pouring [I] 33/14
participating [l]75/21 powder [3] 83/U) 83/22 &U13 Q
particular [2] 81/21 W powdered I41 8712488/19 8917 89/19 qualifications fl] 11718
parties [I] 116114 powders [2] 8316 8319 qualified [2] 11713 1181t0
parts f9] 7m 7u5 7117 71119 72J47218 practices [z] 108/11124/10 quaIifying 111 80nl
W12 72/18 91t24 predicted Ill 109n quarter [3] 17/22 7816 9212
past [2] 35/18 9W8 prejudice [1] 107115 question 1131 6/22 2a44117 5111J SU3
pat [l] 84122 prepared [Z] 105/21 12918 55/20 57122 72/11 77/16 77/19 77/19 115119
patent [I] 84/22 presence [I] 8W10 11612
pattern [s] w6 Wl3 82/15 9919 99/14 prtsent 121 109/25 117114 questioned [2] 43/21 75/8
patterns [4] 8216 102118 10tltl103/5 preserve [3] 83111W187122 questioning 121 115n 12925
penis [I] M1123 preserved [2J85/U881U) questions [16] 26/10 44/12 44113 44/21
people I51 9/17 Q019 62/15 98/19 129% president 111 12211 4124W19 7% 7519 7Qrl76/67715 7719
per [I] 113114 presuppose [ll 10#24 8114 1- l l M 2 lfW
percent 121 10V3 11514 pretrial [S] l W l 9 1 0 7 7 10774 lorn6 quickly 111 S7t2
perhaps [2] 7/22 127116 11W4 quiet [I] 127/6
permissible 111 44/12 pretty [21 47/14 104/18 Quote 111 12613
permiUed [1] 116ttS previously 151 1V5 11111 112nS 120/19
person [lo] Y25 4/11 2114 7014 81118 8219 120119 R
1W6 103114 117m 12913 print I351 79/25 8W13 81/19 82/12 83/3 8314 R-id-d-1-e [f I 79/21
person's 111 98/19 83110 83/17 85/8 85/W 85/14 85/25 W 1 rags [41 3324 W14 W5 62)7
personally [I] 66/18 86/1%8/5 88/15 89/14 90113 91n 91m raise (21 lU4 79/15
persons 141 8U18 82n1 llWr16 11915 9 m 92/12 92lZ393/11 93t2 94E9 94114 9Qr3 raised 111 1l Y n
phone 1151 18/18 18/23 19l2 1915 2lE 24/23 9M5 W E 9811 98112 99/5 9 / 1 5 104111 rake [2] 73119 7rU2
-4 26/18 26/19 27110 2 M 37118 38/15 prints [42] 8QrJ1 w 1 1 w 1 8 8411 84/16 rape [Z] 60/13 76/21
39119 54113 84120S4d184122 8443 w 1 m 85/11 raped I31 MI1 67/18 67/18
phonetic 141 89/16 89120 91112 123/11 8615 8615 86110 St220 8717 87119 87/23 raping 121 4212
photograph [I11 83/10 33/13 8924 %%15 87m 88/16 89/17 8 9 m 90/24 93/11 93/19 rather 111 W18
8%19 88/14 9V8 91A 91113 91/15 92/8 93/23 93/25 94/25 94/25 9 W O 95/17 9925 Ray Ill1 88/13 90/5 lorn 10116 10118
photographed I31 87/t5 89/19 89D 96/14 97112 97m 91V5 98)7 99l2 99/12 101110 1W16 IOUIS 102/25 10319 103/11
photographer 111 9V12 1001t5 101114 Ray [1] 4/10
photographs [3] 86/11 8811 9Yll prior 171 4W14 75/16 75/17 80/16 107m RAYMOND 111 It22
physical I11 92/11 116115 123/19 reacts [l] 843
physically [2] %6/2 87/11 probably [q lIlll6713 90nllOO11 10322 read [q 66112 66/25 67117 8#22 llW14
pick [S] 29/25 30lZ 3511 48/11 83/17 11417 127118 reaffirmed 111 lty5
picked [q 301134/334/25 37114 6214 problem 111 90116 reaffirming [I] 120n1
picture [13] 40n16Wf2 62/15 6313 6318 problems [I] W real [3] 83# W 6 8814
63/21 6411 6918 69/11 7 W 9(W6 92B 96/12 proceed [4] 4112 4/16 1W18 1W1 realize (21 7/15 41/24
piece [I] 8318 procediup [2] &2 129113 realIy [I21 14/16 3M2 47/12 51/3 33/17
64/15 6714 72125 7311 7314 9119 10611 4916 64116 66/10 76/17 76118 76/19
S 12m2 subject 121 11519 1W4
shortly 131 2312 234 78/15 sort [14] 42/24 86/25 90n9Q19 90113 91117 submitted 111 96/1
shorts 111 27117 91/18 921 1 115117 11924 123/l8 125115 subpoenaed 111 78/11
shot [I] 10018 IN17 12Qll2 substance [lf 89/24
should [I l ] 7/22 5316 76/22 78/15 106112 spare [I] W 6 such [5j 8318 83/25 9913 114114 12118
f 17/13 118M 11914 11914 122116 125115 speak [Z] 2214 115125 sufficient f2] 6/6113117
shovel [3] 73/247411 7 4 2 speaking [2] 3612 56/14 suggest [3] 12412 12256 127114
show [7] 4813 62/12 9316 9318 95/13 9920 special 191 1/14 1116 l/18 4ff 16/10 47117 suggestibiIity [22] 107h 107119 10815
961I1 47/20 47t22 48111 1W10 109111 109113 109/21110n 11W15
showed [4] 75/17 75/19 76/15 76/25 specific [l] 12Vtl llW l l l l l l 113111 11443 11514 115110
showing [2] 62/13 104125 specifically 171 6n2 11/14 7#17 9014 92/17 115112 117/22 1 1 W 119m 12W3 121113
shown [l] 1134 94/24 96/18 12U16
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sic I11 86/22 spiIl [l] 3319 suggesting [2] 715 11617
side [6] 3V13 88/18 9Wl92D 9311 9913 spfashed [I] 61/25 suggestion [5] 113121 11418 11M 11517
sill [l] 118/20 splashing [I] 6U3 fZllll
sim 111 124125 spoke131 36f9 41n6 45n4 suitable [4] 91n194114 96n lOQn
simply [q 1 1M 11W6 111111 11#6 12W5 spoken [I] 6/11 summary [3] 123118 126/12 126n6
12423 124/25 Spot Ill 90m superfluous [2] 117h 119110
sir [14] 5116 51/14 53/3 5313 54/23 W24 spray 111 W5 superglue 121 8418 M 0
57/21 61/24 65/18 67rUI 68/17 7td6 79/13 sprinkles [I] 62/2 superglued [I] 89R
1W17 SS [I] 129/l supergluing 111 85/21
dls 111 123m stab [l] W10 superior Ill 124110
sitting [3] 27P14 39/26 64/24 stabbed 111 67n9 supler [l] 11714
situation [1] 1 M 0 SCaehowski 111 WS supper [1] W 5
Si [l] IZPtS stage [3] 8/B TS19 78/21 supply 11) 126n2
s k e 131 29112 99124 100/10 Stahke [ll 103B support 111 l f m 3
skin 111 98119 stain [4] 69117 IOU18 IOU21 10314 suppose 131 97# 100n IOU24
sleep [2J1511 46/10 stains [3] 3711 84/14 1W17 sure 161 91249110 71123 71M 78/19 107121
slewe [I] 27117 standard [3] 80112 8W8 86/3 surface I71 8Ut5 83R 85116 9W15 98116
slept [l] 1511 standards [I] 84/24 98118 1Wf6
small 11) 99ff standing [2] 29119 79114 surhces 141 85122 9814 9911 10M
smell 111 66/19 standpoint [I] 8/19 surrounding 121 11116 121118
smelled [2] 70122 70/24 stands [1] 128/6 suspect [ l j 12313
smooth (31 83# 9913 104113 start 111 5318 sustain 111 44114
smoother [I] 1 M started 131 57/23 8&22 114t25 S W [l] 67/11
so [87) 6/17 712 812 10117 1y9 11/22 13/12 starting [I] 10922 swipe [I] 90112
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19/14 19/23 2119 2241 2 3 5 23/15 23119 2416 79119 79/25 80116 80/20 97/22 107ff 107111 ~vrinees121 99110 99112
Wt22~27/1027DOW528r1529/16 109BllOl5flUl112118llY1911518
3117331433/1335/2137B37ttlW104V4 11519115111 llY13115116 115/24116/1 T
44114 45/20 4618 51/18 56/15 5718 63/17 1 1 m 1I# 11716 I2W12 121124 123117 table [I] 6311
696 65114 6Qr14 74/10 7915 8Yf 1 81118 123121 124118 127113 127119 12911 12915 Tadycb [I] 5 1 M
83TU) 83/23 8414 8920 87/15 87118 8Sl8 Siatt's 171 815 1lU9 113115 119112 120110 take [l8] lOn 17112 1 7 m 3% 3219 36/19
89/12 91P3 9114 91R 93/12 9416 95113 95116 12WU 1 2 a 4712 7W5 78124 89El W23 9119 10522
9615 W14 96/23 98/13 9916 1 W IOlB statement [I] 11314 105124 116/15 119114 12W5
l o w 4 103& 103110 103113 1 W l l4D statemen& [3] 10W4 100rs ll3E taken [lo] 6313 63/5631963B 63117 77/21
11410 115112 119% 11614 12415 126P7 Statutes [I) 116PZQ 8915 91111 117n3 129~9
12Q119 stayed [1] 465 taka (21 17/25 18/1
solely [2] 914 126/18 steel [I] 104113 talk [I91 25/13 2915 37/2339112 39118 4217
some 1521 9/25 13115 1Q1619/21 20/5 29115 stems [I1 11715 4318 45/12 45/16 65112 661271/12 99132
29115 31n 32n 3313 3611 37113 4116 4 / 1 1 s t m w a p h i [1] 12919 10615 l l l n 11114 11117 121116 12417
44/13 47/20 50113 58/22 58/W 62t2 7515 step 7814 105ff7 118/1 talked 119 &24 9116 18/19 19E9 2114 22B
81120 83115 85110 86/14 SU3 89123 90n Steve [3] 47B 62/17 67/10 37/20 42/17 45PL 46/15 71n4 7U4 72/16
9019 W 1 3 93/10 93118 93/23 98/14 98/19 W e n 1341 1318 13/19 26/21 26t22 2 m 99/18 121117
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llQ113115/16llYl8115P24117/21ZU7 34/10351535113351U37n238/438/14 76P24
123119 12513 1W15 125117 127/l6 4116 52/14 60119 61/22 63115 63/23 6415 tank 121 84198916
somebody [I] 10W6 70110 71n4 71117 73/19 9614 99/21 102124 tape [q 54541 5915 591%59110 83/16 =I17
somehow 121 85/12 87/22 10318 9W6
someone [4] 37121 73f2 7316 8518 Steven's 151 28/24 3018 9/12 54114 6819 taping 111 7615
someone's 121 1912 103113 stick [I] 7W4 term& [5] 97/25 9&2 9813 1W13 l W l 4
somttbing [29] 7/23 18/19 19)9 22116 32/14 still [I] 51/19 teachers [I] M13
32t2132l23 32/25 33/24 4813 50fl8 5312 stipulated 111 8111 teaching [l] lOOnO
53l3 55/13 58/15 63110 891259%PU 99P2 stap 121 1WlO 1 W tech 141 82418 86B 97/24 98t2
102P7 104113 104122 1 W 2 109116 1144 story 121 67115 67117 technics1 [1] 100114
119123 1 m S 126122 127n strategies [l] 121119 technician [I] 98B
sometime [3] 21110 2922 12324 strategy [I] I21n technicians 131 98f9 100113 100116
sometimes @I 16FI1813 58/18 strictly [l] 87/14 technique [I] 12424
somewhat [2] 6&21 124119 strike [l] 21/25 techniques [I] 114t2
somewhere [2] 220125 7&25 studenb [l] W 1 technology [I]
sorry 1141 6/25 31lP 39/3 52/19 58122 58/25 stuff [12] 3011 m'2 30/4 33/16 37114 37116 tell [49] 3a12 36/14 36/16 3%n4211 42118
74/18 74t20 74/22 W7 86f24 83/388118 thousand [l] lOOn
T 89/10 94/11 9813 9816 99EJ1W1O lOlB threatened [l] 1018
teIL.. [a] 8313 eUlW15 SylW17 104118 10516 threats [l] 5115
5418 54/12 54/20 54m 5616 55117 55/20 then @7j 9/8 11/21 21D2 27110 27112 2N6 three [I91 1412 1U16 15/16 1717 33/l0 33/10
55/24 56/19 56/24 57112 57/14 !W7 W18 28/9 34/14 38n134/23 37/12 39/16 49124 3414 45118 45120 67L3 6715 6716 69/16 69117
61/16t19 63n 6414 64PI 65113 6922 66113 51110 5518 55/13 57/22 5%11759m 6613 8216 86M 93/22 10415 12412
6719 691% W4 70t2171119 7YZ 73/12 7717 67/19 72/2 81/2 82110 82/14 8318 83t22 threw [2] 34l3 34125
77/18 9416 96/15 98/14 104M 104116 125n1 87/25 8W2 88/19 89/7 9416 llOn 110116 throat [1] 70117
telling [9] 4X43 44R 44/20 48/16 72/3 72/14 121/12 12W6 12715 through 1101 7116 8f7 27124 33/16
72/15 7318 7920 theory 131 10911 109n55 1 0 9 5 W6 97ff 106Ql109122 lltn
ten [7J14/24 Ed16 28/10 28/10 29/17 3911 there (1081 4/20 7t23 7/24 8/209110 9lZ4 throughout [l] 11611
4013 10122 1311 14121 15/11 21P25 23115 24/15 throw [t] 32/13#19
tend [I] 73/20 2715 27/25 28/16 2916 30113 31/14 3711 throwing [I] 37116
bnderd [I] 122/10 37/19 38/21 42/19 42n2 43B 45118 46l4 thrown 111 67/19
Tenth [l] 1W4 46/5 49117 9/16 5115 5V5 51/7 5V8 51114 thus 111 11811
Teresa 1221 W16 41/11 4 m 42/18 Sl/4 51/19 51119 52/13 52/23 !2./24 W13 54/23 Timber [2] 30n0 30121
53/13 5WX 6M15 67111 6815 Wit22 69/11 W7 55/17 W19 55/21 56/1 W6 56/12 60R time [52] 4/15 1212 151t2 1715 19/23 20112
70El70nO 72/25 73/97414 75/21 l0ld 65/16 69/19 70/24 7 0 M 7920 7mO 82PUI 20117 2W19 2Wtl2117 21M2 21114 21/24
lOYl0 l0lrW 1 0 m 83/13 84/20 8 W 85/19 85/14 86/24 88117 2 ~ 1 22/19
5 22123 z3n 2 3 ~ zw ~1 2 6 ~
Teresa's [3] 53/24) 6217 7015 88/20 8an4 9018 91169m 91/20 91nz 36116 37n5 38/4 3%n5 3914 3916 39n2
term [Z] W2 10716 91/25 93/10 93/20 93122 94/12 94/15 94/17 40PU1 W17 5U17 57115 61/12 61/13 6315
test [2] 113/11118/2 W10 95/16 9924 96/14 %I15 96116 97/25 63/21 7612 79/11 ams i n 0 8711 99/11
Mted [I] 102421 100E 10215 102117 103n 10312 107113 10012 lootto IOU5 l O U l l l W 6 1 W
testified [PI 1218 56110 66fS 79118 W l S IIWOl i m ~ iiln 1 1 ~ 1 113116
s 11419 110116 117/5 12WU 1W19 123117
97/10 101115 10914 12QEQ l l W 11W6 11718 121113 1 W l 7 1292 times [I81 6111 3Y16 3318 36/10 431%4 9 2
testifies I21 1W17 123124 1299 125/18 12920 126115 126116 4515 4517 45116 Q5n8 4920 5UZl52123
testi@ [29] 4/18 423 Y l 9 4 W 9 2 0 924 there's I161 10119 8U6 82/24 84n 8418 531983115 97/25 114/19 1I N 9
~3 rn 7 n t 6013105121 107/18 10813 84/10 84222 84t23 85/20 POI6 90f9 99113 tire 151 90PIW7 90116 W l 8 9lD0
109M 111119 112120 11311 113R 113/23 1W18 106112 llQnl1159 tires [q 29/15 3013 3 V t 3114 6518
1lmO 119116 119119 119123 12W112013 thereafter 111 129111 today 1161 55/4 56/21 72/20 7318 76/22
12719 127117 127Ptl therefore [I] lOOnl 517m1 1 ~ 11m5
109110 i w n 4 1 1 ~ 1 1 6
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1091101IM 12m1 these [22] 26193Y7 4814 4% 4819 48/11 together [I] 17/13
testimony [48] 1 W 1 W 0 1W22 106124 W l 4 5214 56/14 56/14 67/1 W4 94/19 told [39 915 9/10 w l 0 29134 4 Y t 4311
10719 lWn5 1W12 lorn2 1 W 5 llOn 9 9 m 1OW2 100P7 l W l 2 104/19 104/22 48/10 4&23 49112 SU4 5US 52/10 52/14
llO/I8 llU19 llW25 111113 1l y f 6 111/17 1 W 117111 52/15 53/13 5413 SS/lO W5 56/12 56/20
11in111ai2 113114 1 1 ~ 1 114108 1 1 ~ 2 [69] 14/17 23/14 3413 34123 34124
they 57/10 57117 6518 69/24 7W16 7114 7117
11923 116/16 116/18 116121 116224 11m5 W16 42/17 43/8 43tZ2 43rt3 44/144114413 71/16 71118 71/24)7Wl1 W17 749 lW/lS
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llV19 119n 11914 119D 119/12 12M6 4U16 46117 4 9 M sol1 W7 72110 74124 Tom 111 4l8
122D 12W12 12U17 12319 123nOO 244122 87/25 W18814 8%rt4 %Sn5 8925 89lY tomorrow [5] 79n 7914 1 W 127110
12511 125116 89/10 89n3 89fB M 0 90/2l 9111196/25 12815
testing [3] f l l A 120116 121114 97/14 98/21 9 W 99111 10/8 100115 too 141 19fil31110 55/13 91/15
tesb [6] W l 4 61/91 1138 113/10 l l s l l l loon1 1 m 10415 lwls 1 w 1 2 104115 toak [5] 37/10 67/10 8914 8914 9118
lfsm 104117 1 W O 112/20 118125 119K 11915 ltoor 111 8111s
than 1151 8/19 9/17 1417 l M 0 14/24 18/13 124B 124111 124114 125112 125112 126/1 '&Is 111 113#
29110 3 W 43115 571290118 97l9 9815 12616 126tl126t21 top (21 83117 99111
109no 1 m 1 they're [7] 3# 44130 74/3 80112 W 2 topic [I] 1&21
thank 1201 1W15 l l n 3 46nf 78D 79n l o i ~llo f n topics [1] 75/16
81/13 97/16 97/18 103117 1OW 1W15 they've [2] 8616 1416 total 111 93/22
1060 106118 112/15 116112 119n5 12WS thing [q 10120 34/14 5416 75111 7913 82l5 touched [I] 81TU)
122123 127M 12W 123116 touches [I] 85116
thanks [2] 6518 81112 things 1181 3y7 43/24 58111 W 2 2 64/19 touching [I] 86/2
that 15371 46/12 66/13 66117 66/17 66118 66/20 71/13 towel [I] 62/14
that's 1691 1 M 4 1112 1h22 I N 9 19n0 98/17 109113 116119 118118 119117 12611 trailer [2] 4713 4715
26/24 3W4 41n2 43lY 43/18 44115 55123 think I291 1Wu 19119 2315 2619 4315 51113 trained 121 1 M 1-
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BRANCH 3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
TRIAL DAY 8
VS . Case No. 06 CF 88
BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
DEFENDANT.

Circuit Court Judge
APPEARANCES:
KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
THOMAS FALLON
Special Prosecutor
NORMAN A. GAHN
Special Prosecutor
On b e h a l f of the State of Wisconsin.
MARK R . FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
Attorney at Law
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
Defendant I
Appeared in person.
1
COPY
I N D E X
WITNESSES PAGE
DR. ROBERT GORDON

Direct Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY KRFlTZ
Redirect Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN
Recross-Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ
REBUTTAL WITNESS
DR. JAMES -UT

Direct Examination by ATTORNEY KRATZ
Cross-Examination by ATTORNEY FREMGEN
226 8 166 167

227 166 167
228
22 9
230
231
THE COURT: Good morning, counsel. Uh,
this is S t a t e of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R . Dassey,
06 CF 88. Appearances, please.

ATTORNEY KRATZ: The S t a t e continues in i t s
appearance by Special Prosecutors Ken Kratz,

Tom Fallon and Norm Gahn.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Mark
Fremgen, Attorney Ray Edelstein appear with

Brendan Dassey in person.
THE COURT: A r e you s e t to proceed?

ATTORNEY KRATZ : Yes, Judge.
THE COURT: Do so.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Call Dr. Robert Gordon.
DR. ROBERT CORDON,
called as a witness h e r e i n , having been first duly

your name and spell your l a s t name for t h e record.
THE WITNESS: Could I get prepared first,

please?
THE CLERK: Sure.
THE WITNESS: My name is Robert H. Gordon,

G-o-r-d-o-n.
DIRECT -NATION
ATTORNEY FREMGEN:
Doctor, do you -- can you describe what your, uh,

educational background is?
Sure. f have a Bachelor's Degree from Purdue
University. That was obtained in 1972.
I received my Doctorate in c l i n i c a l
psychology from Washington University in 1976.
I completed a one-year internship a t t h e
University of Tennessee, School f o r Health
Sciences.
And I subsequently audited t w o classes
i n the early 80's at the University of Wisconsin

Law School.
I've, uh, attended a v a r i e t y of
workshops in the meantime and, likewise, have
given o r a l presentations, seminars and training
than I've gone to workshops.
Where do you -- where are you currently employed?

Until, uh, Friday, I'm currently employed with
Forensic Psych Associates. I t s , uh, o f f i c e -- main
o f f i c e is in Janesville. Uh, other offices are
located in Chicago, Milwaukee and R o c k f o r d .
And you said until Friday. A r e you changing
positions as of Friday?
I am.
Q And where are you -- where w i l l you be working a t
t h a t point?
A As of, uh, Tuesday, May 1, I will be t h e D i r e c t o r of
F o r e n s i c Evaluation Services at St. Louis Behavioral
Medicine Institute Health -- St. Louis Behavioral

Health I n s t i t u t e , affiliated with S t . Louis
University.
What o t h e r work or, uh, employment history do you
have involved w i t h c l i n i c a l or f o r e n s i c
psychology?
Well, I began my career, primarily, as a clinical
psychologist. T worked f o r the f i r s t t w o y e a r s o u t
of -- a f t e r I completed m y graduate degree, at the
Janesville Counseling Center down -- that's what is
currently known as -- it's a p a r t of t h e Rock County

H e a l t h Care Center System. Uh, c o u n t y system. And I
was a clinical supervisor there.
And, then, from 1978 until present, I

have been in p r i v a t e practice, running my own
o f f i c e , employing some s t a f f , and doing

counseling, consulting to d i f f e r e n t agencies,
probation and p a r o l e , counseling -- o t h e r
counseling services, uh, Department of Human

Services, etc.
And, then, over the past, uh, five

years, I've, uh, exclusively, uh, limited my
practice to f o r e n s i c work, except I do a few free
counseling sessions a n d r u n a free group a t a
church, and I -- I will continue that on a

one-time per week -- or one-time per month basis,
uh, by phone, once I gets to St. Louis, but with
everyone else in a church -- i n a group.
A r e you a member of any professional
organizations or a s s o c i a t i o n s ?
I am.
Can you describe those organizations related to
your f i e l d of expertise?
Well, they're listed on my CV, a n d they include t h e

~ m e r i c a nPsychological Association, of which I'm a
member. I was designated, uh, oh, maybe 20 years
ago, as being a Fellow of t h e Wisconsin Psychological
Association,
I'm a l s o a member of the Division of
Wisconsin Psychological Association called the
Society of C l i n i c a l and Consulting Psychologists.
Then, there's the Division of the American

Psychological Association, of which I'm a member
of the American Psychology Law S o c i e t y .
I'm also, um, a member of three smaller

organizations. The Association for t h e Treatment
of Sex Abusers, the I l l i n o i s Sex Offender
Management Board, and the Milwaukee Area
Psychological Association.
I'm s o r r y for reading, b u t I want to
make s u r e it's accurate.
You mentioned that this is on your CV?

That's correct.
And CV, you mean by that, Curriculum Vitae?
Precisely.
Another word f o r resum4?

Yes, sir.
(Exhibit No, 2 2 6 m a r k e d for identification. )
T ' m going to show you what's been marked as
Exhibit 2 2 6 . Is that t h e Curriculum V i t a e you're

referencing?
Yes.
Now, you had mentioned -- o r I t h i n k you were
going i n t o discussing psych -- c e r t a i n boards,
and I t h i n k you mentioned, "up until recently."
Can you describe, first of a l l , what boards, and

what you mean by "up until r e c e n t l y ? "
Yes. I was on three boards and r e s i g n e d d u e t o my
changing p o s i t i o n . The, uh, boards include, uh, in

the past, b e i n g on t h e advisory committee to the
University Wisconsin-Whitewater, uh, Chancellor, t h e
Dean of, uh, A r t s and Sciences.
I, also, was on the C i r c l e of Friends
for the c o u r t appointed special advocate in Rock
County. Urn, I also, in the past, was a -- on the
board of d i r e c t o r s f o r t h e Society of Clinical
and Consulting Psychologists that f referred to
already. There may have been one or t w o o t h e r s .

I didn't c h e c k my notes. I'm sure I omitted one.
Now, you've mentioned clinical psychology along

with the term "forensic p s y c h o l o g y . " Can you
describe what the difference is between the two?
Sure. There a r e many components of Psychology,
whether it's clinical psychology, urn, experimental
psychology, industrial psychology. These are
d i f f e r e n t s p e c i f i c aspects of psychology.
But when you apply that body of

knowledge to matters that come before t h e c o u r t ,
to assist the court or a j u r y i n m a k i n g

decisions, that's when i t becomes forensic in
nature. So that you can have a forensic social

psychologist or forensic e n g i n e e r .
Forensic means, a body of knowledge that
qualifies you by the court to be an expert, to

o f f e r any information to the c o u r t and to the
jurors.
How long have you been involved in forensic
psychology, for instance?
I've been involved in f o r e n s i c psychology since 1978.

But it's been on a increasing basis since that time.
I began by doing mental commitment evaluations and

guardianship evaluations.
Have you ever t e s t i f i e d in c o u r t before?
Yes.
Do you -- can you recall how many times you've
been in court as I a' --"'testifying in this t y p e of

capacity?
Uh, Mr. Fremgen, I -- 1 came to a better estimate of
t h a t , a n d it's an estimate, last night, uh, as I
calculated it, and t h a t would be roughly 2,500. But
t h a t number is i n f l a t e d , because many of those have
been done at the request of t h e Department of

P r o b a t i o n and Parole, where I c o n s u l t or I consulted
up until this past Thursday.

And, a l s o , t h e y c o n t a i n -- those numbers
are -- are higher because the significant portion

also are mental commitment evaluations and
g u a r d i a n s h i p evaluations.
So it's n o t necessarily j u r y t r i a l s , for

instance?
No, s i r . Uh, the majority are n o t j u r y t r i a l s . The
majority are before the judge.
So, j u s t a judge, is what you're saying?

I wouldn't say, just t h e judge, 1'd say before the
judge .
Before the c o u r t .
Yes.
Have you a u t h o r e d or co-authored any
publications, or any articles, or any books?
Yes.
You, again, b r i e f l y l i s t e d , described the t o p i c
of t h e -- the, uh, publication?
Could you -- could I --
B r i e f l y list, describe what that authored
publication is?
Uh, I co-authore d one book c a l l e d , Substance Abuse,
Homicide and V i o l e n t Behavior. I have a l s o , uh,
self -- self-published a facilitator's guide and a
learner's workbook regarding treatment of sex

offenders.
Then, I have a number of a r t i c l e s that

have been published. Some have been published in
what's called peer reviewed j o u r n a l s where you
submit it to psychologists and o t h e r mental

health professionals. And t h e y decide whether
it's worthy of publication.
In other occasions, my, uh -- some of
the 12 a r t i c l e s t h a t I've written have been in
more l i k e trade j o u r n a l s , like put o u t by t h e
different -- l i k e a b a r association or psychology
association. And those would n o t be called peer
reviews. Those are re -- reviewed by editors of

the j o u r n a l s or -- or trade publications.
Have any of those peer review publications
involved aspects of forensic psychology?
One did, i n d i r e c t l y .
And what was t h a t ?
Well, that was my dissertation. And I didn't foresee

it as being forensically-related, but it is. And
it's entitled, ''Diagnostic Compliance in Rorschach
Interpretation as a Function of Group Member S t a t u s . "
That was my dissertation to get my Ph.D. And, a l s o ,
I summarized it b e t t e r than I did the title, uh, to
be published in a peer-related article.
How o f t e n do you spend time familiarizing
yourself w i t h t h e c u r r e n t research in the f i e l d

of f o r e n s i c psychology?
Well, my w i f e t h i n k s t h a t I do t h a t quite o f t e n , and
that she's right. Urn, I receive journals, I review

journals. I, uh, go to -- go to particular workshops
and seminars. And I a l s o , thanks to the modern-day

technology, urn, probably spend an average of one to
t w o hours in the evening, four days a w e e k on t h e
average, uh, seeing what c u r r e n t a r t i c l e s are

published in a variety of areas regarding cases in --
forensic cases in general or cases that I'm
consulting on.
Why is it important to continue to follow t h e
research or follow, um, t r e n d s in forensic
psychology?
Well, it's -- it's two reasons. One is, ethically
required by the ethic code -- ethical codes t h a t I
subscribe to, or ascribe to, simply by my
participation in these organizations I've mentioned.

The other reason is more important to
me. It's personal. When I am o f f e r i n g
information that may be helpful to judges or
juries t h a t in -- a f f e c t , life, liberty,
I
finances, urn, people's rights, then, uh, that's
something t h a t I personally take very seriously.
Have you ever presented or trained -- you

mentioned you've gone to training sessions. Have
you ever trained others in your f i e l d of
psychology? I
I have.
I
Can you b r i e f l y describe those presentations or

trainings?
A Well, they've been on a variety of forensic topics.
I could enumerate those, if you l i k e . But I can
summarize by saying that f c o u n t e d them up, and there

are 100 or -- g i v e or t a k e L a ~ p u p l ehundred
presentations that I've provided to either attorneys,

and they've been continuing legal education approved
for all, and 1 have a l s o presented to probation
officers, s o c i a l workers, f e d e r a l probation chiefs

regarding a variety of f o r e n s i c matters.
Uh, some of them have been small. Only
10, 15, 20 individuals at, uh, a bar association.
O t h e r s have been l a r g e . When it's been, f o r
example, uh -- most recently, I testified -- n o t

I
t e s t i f i e d , b u t spoke at, regarding sex o f f --
sexual assault homicide in capital cases, in,
uh -- in Texas at a -- a national conference.
So, it -- I
it runs the gamut.
Previously, you i n d i c a t e d you've t e s t i f i e d over,
approximately, 2500 times in various, uh, types
of proceedings. When you've testified in t h e
past, do you testify s o l e l y f o r one side or the
other? I
No, sir.
Do you have any percentage as to what -- how --
how often youNre c a l l e d by one side or other?
A Pardon me?
Q Do you have any percentage, t h a t you're aware of,

as -- as far as Row o f t e n youtre called by, let's
say, for instance, the defense?
A That's a d i f f e r e n t question than you asked before.
By the defense, probably 60 percent. By the
prosecution, probably 40 percent. But thatrs s t i l l
the minority of who request my services.

Q Now, let me j u s t , uh, s k i p ahead. Are you
familiar w i t h the term, quote, f a l s e confession,
unquote?
I
A Yes.
Q And how is this term Earn -- familiar to you as a

f o r e n s i c psychologist?
A Well, it's familiar to me by cases I've been involved
in, by my understanding of t h e literature and t h e

t e s t s available to evaluate them. And it's r e l a t e d
to evaluating whether, urn, or -- it's, uh, related to
helping address, uh, false confessions, and -- which
are admitting to wrongdoing when it didn't exist, uh,

or overstating one's involvement in a crime and --
Q Is there another tewg th&gqs U S % ~ this f i e l d ?

A
I-
Well, beginning in 1908, there was Munsterberg, who
wrote his f i r s t book on causes of false confession at
-
the turn of t h e k e n t u r y .
Also, not t h i s century, Binet, uh,
showed p i c t u r e s , and then saw if there was a -- a
- I
change in responses when the pictures were shown
again.
And, most recently, in the -- i n the
1 9 8 0 f s , uh, Gisli, and I've been -- I've been
t o l d it ' s Gudj ansson, uh, developed what ' s called
"interrogative suggestibility." And that was in
the 8 0 f s . And he has done extensive research,
uh, and come up with a Gudjonsson Suggestibility

S c a l e s to assess f o r t w o aspects of, uh,
interrogative suggestibility.
Is Gudjonsson the foremost expert in t h i s f i e l d ?
He's certainly one of the leading experts. Uh, he
was originally a -- a detective in Iceland. He went
over to London. He became a psychologist. He was

asked to consult about confessions. He now is the
Professor of Forensic Psychology a t t h e I n s t i t u t e of
Psychology a t Kings College i n London.
He's written a -- a -- I didn't bring it
w i t h me, a t h i c k handbook, which, not to be
blasphemous, but would be t h e bible of, uh, t h e

psychology of false confessions and psychology of
f a l s e confessions. I don't have t h e exact title
with me, but, uh, it's one that's heavily relied
upon.
Q Is t h e Gudjonsson Scale of Suggestibility, what

you've j u s t r e c e n t l y described, the only tool
that a forensic psychologist h a s available to him
in determining whether a person has the
p s y c h i a t r i c or psychological characteristics t h a t
may cause him to be v u l n e r a b l e to give any f a l s e

confession?
No.
What -- what other tools do you believe, as a
forensic psychologist, are important to consider
in making a determination of suggestibility?
Focusing on tools as your --
ATTORNEY KRATZ:
I Judge, I -- I'm sorry. If
I may interpose an objection? Perhaps Mr. Fremgen
is doing this intentionally, b u t he's interposing

I
the terms "suggestibility" and "false confession."
If we're t a l k i n g about f a l s e c o n f e s s i o n , I ' d ask
t h a t he a s k t h a t question. If h e r s talking about
7, .,; :*,<,;,
suggestiblllty, '1'd ask that he phrase it in those
terms.
THE COURT: So, yout re objecting to the
form of t h e question as a compound question?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: I am, Judge. They are
two, I t h i n k , distinct, uh, concepts, and I'd ask
that t h o s e be, uh, referenced to any specific
questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. ~remgen?

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'll change -- I'll --
THE COURT: Okay.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- rephrase.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Can you describe the o t h e r

t o o l s that you would consider important in making
a determination whether a person, uh, has t h o s e
personality or psychological characteristics t h a t

make them vulnerable to suggestion?
A Yes. Uh, generally speaking, there are tests

regarding intellectual functioning, IQ, uh, they
could be memory, they could be tests associated with
assessing personality traits, characteristics
associated with the likelihood of being suggestible.
Uh, those a r e the main ones.
Q Now, are these --
A The main categories.
Q I'm sorry. Are these tests developed solely to

determine whether a person may be suggestible?
A The, uh, only one that was s o l e l y developed that
personal is the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scales.
Q So t h e other t e a t s t h a t you were j u s t talking
1 18
about in a -- more of a generic form, a r e they
used in other, urn, evaluations in forensic
psychology, f o r instance?
A In forensic psychology and non-forensic psychology,
true.
Why is it that, uh, these tests that have,
potentially, nothing to do with suggestibility,

are important tools to consider as a forensic
psychologist in making t h a t determination?
Well, there are d i f f e r e n t psychological

characteristics t h a t an individual m i g h t e x h i b i t or
might possess that, in turn, would increase or
decrease the likelihood t h a t they would be
suggestible. And those include, intellectual

functioning, learning problems, memory problems,
personality characteristics. Whether a person, fox
example, is passive, withdrawn, socially introverted,

quiet, anxious, wanting to be p l e -- desiring to
please, uh, being in terms of social desirability,
urn -- I must be missing something, b u t I don't recall

right now.
Now -- and -- and, again, is this something t h a t ,
for instance, Gudj onsson recommends forensic

psychologists to consider in addition to his
suggestibility scale?
A Absolutely.
Q Have you performed these tests on actual subjects

to determine whether a person may be s u s c e p t i b l e
I
or vulnerable 'ko suggestion before?
A Yes.
Q And -- and do you -- can you tell us how o f t e n or

how many times, that is, that you performed these
tests to assist you in making d e t e r m i n a t i o n s of
whether a person is vulnerable to suggestion?
A f should keep better records, b u t t h e number is --

compared to t h e 2,500, is d e f i n i t e l y lower. It's
more l i k e 5 to 10.
Q And have you ever t e s t i f i e d in a c o u r t , such as

this, in t h a t regard?
A Yes.
Q And -- and how often have you done that?

A Three times. Well, t h r e e that I can recall.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I -- I'm sorry.
Again, I interpose an objection as to vague. "In a

court, such as this." A r e we t a l k i n g about a j u r y
trial? Or are we t a l k i n g about j u s t before a judge?

THE COURT: That's fair.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I ask that -- that
THE COURT: Sure. It's a fair objection.
I 20
I
I t f $ sustained. Why don't your rephrase the
question, Counsel?
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) How o f t e n did you t e s t i f y

before a judge in regards t o this type of topic?
A Before a judge, t h a t I can r e c a l l of those f i v e to
ten times, uh twice.

Q Howoftenhaveyoutestified--
A Three -- three times. I'm s o r r y .
Q How often have you t e s t i f i e d in this same regard

in f r o n t of a j u r y :
A This i s t h e first time.
Q Now, you had a -- a large number of cases t h a t

you've test -- you indicated you testified before
a c o u r t i n the past?
A That's true.
Q And this seems l i k e a very small fraction; is

that correct?
A That l s true.
Q Why is it t h a t you have such a smaller fraction

in this type of, uh, evaluation, or forensic
psychology versus the o t h e r types that you
testified about?
A Well, it's j u s t an expansion -- a gradual expansion
of my practice. I mean, when I f i r s t started doing

t h i s , as I i n d i c a t e d , I only d i d mental commitment
evaluations and guardianship. And, then, I began to
do maybe a -- a few custody evaluations, and, uh,
fitness to stand t r i a l or, uh, proceedings regarding
disposition of cases regarding children or -- or
sentencing.
And, t h e n , it j u s t -- with t h e seminars
I -- I attended, with presentations I've given

that required me to learn the material to present
in a meaningful way to attorneys, then 1
gradually expanded my areas of expertise. Not --
not -- n o t to the point -- I'm n o t a
neuropsychologist, f o r example, so I -- there's
no way I ' m going to expand to the p o i n t of
t a l k i n g about t r a u m a t i c brain injury from a car
accident, and g e t up here and try to help the

Court. I mean, there's certain limitations.
Q When you began your p r a c t i c e in, urn, psychology,

uh, was there sex offender groups at that time
that you were aware?
A Not that I was aware of.

Q And, now, you testified earlier t h a t one, uh,
function of your, urn, employment is you are a
facilitator in sex offender groups?
A I'm proud to say that I get to continue t h a t by web
cam on a weekly basis for the three groups I already
I 22
run once I get to St. Louis. So, yes.
Q So that's something that's k i n d of progressed

throughout your career?
A Even that has progressed to web cam. That's t r u e .
Q But the s e x offender type of -- of involvement in
your field?
A I started off w i t h s i x individuals that were in a
group, and, now, I ' v e seen three thousand.
Q Your -- would it be fair to s t a t e that your

involvement in suggestibility evaluations is
similar? That is, it's begin -- it's j u s t
beginning, and it's beginning to progress?
A It's j u s t b e g i n n i n g . Beginning to progress. But
whether expands to the degree -- I doubt it will

expand to the degree that my s e x o f f e n d e r work has,
because I'm 56 and don't have that many years t o have
i t expand. You know.
Q
I
Specifically, t u r n i n g to Brendan Dassey, you're
familiar with Brendan; correct?
A I am.
Q And how did you become familiar, f i r s t , w i t h
Brendan Dassey?
A Youcontactedmyoffice.
Q Did you have an opportunity to review collateral

materials in preparation for meeting with
I 23
Brendan?
A I did.
Q Can you describe what those materials were?

A Uh, it -- it was, uh, sheriff, uh, t r a n s c r i p t
regarding his, uh, being interrogated. And I also
viewed the actual video of -- of t h o s e -- some
individuals call them interviews when they're
victims, interrogations when they're suspects. Uh, I
viewed t h a t as well. And I, subsequently, reviewed,
a f t e r my report was prepared, uh, school records

regarding, uh, Mr. Dassey, Brendan, t h a t date back at
least to fourth grade. If not, before.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if I may, and I
don't mean to -- I don't mean to interpose an

objection, but when he indicates reviewing
videotapes, if he could explain the dates of those
interview videotapes so t h a t we know w h a t interview

he was t a l k i n g about, that might be h e l p f u l f o r us
as well.
THE COURT: That's fair. If you're going
to be alluding to materials that are dated,
Dr. Gordon, why don't you, as p a r t of your answer,

reference the date.
A Yes, s i r .
THE COURT: Okay.
I 24
THE WITNESS: Do you want me to do t h a t
now?
THE WITNESS: The, uh, written narrative

was based on i n t e r -- an interview that took
place on February 27, 2006. I may have reviewed

a n o t h e r one as well. I don't recall. But I know
one was based on an interview of -- or
interrogation of February 27, 2 0 0 6 -- 2006.
Q Did you have an opportunity to review a DVD of a

videotaped statement on March 1, 20061
A Yes.
Q And you indicated you'd a l s o reviewed a number o f
school records as well; correct?
A I sure d i d .
Q And at one point were you provided w i t h tran --
or a -- copies of a CD involving phone calls from
the j a i l ?
A I was.
Q Before you conducted any -- w e l l , let me ask you

this: Did you conduct any tests on Brendan
Dassey?
A Yes.
Q Now, before you conducted t h o s e t e s t s , d i d you

a l s o perform a mental s t a t u s examination of
Brendan ~ a s s e y ?
A I did.
Q Why is it i m p o r t a n t to do a mental status

evaluation of a, uh, individual?
A Well, it's important because it's -- it's important
because it's advisable to obtain a variety of sources

of clinical information, both collateral, as well as
testing, as well as interview, in order to conduct a
comprehensive evaluation to corn -- in order to come
up with t h e most reliable and valid conclusion as
possible.
Q What observations, if any, did you have following

your mental status evaluation of Brendan Dassey?
A Uh, Brendan Dassey's t h o u g h t process was slow. He

was -- there was, even in the interview, indication
of mild to moderate mental impairment. He was slow
to respond. His eye contact was poor. His a f f e c t
was bland. To put t h a t -- h i s affect was blah. To
p u t it unprofessionally.
He, uh -- t-here was -- a mental status
I
evaluation a l s o o f t e n includes a -- a history. A
s o c i a l history. And he has a history of -- of,
uh, learning problems, as I noted, per h i s
report, confirmed by collateral data.

He a l s o t a l k e d to me about feeling very
anxious and a loner in school, having few
friends, and feeling anxious, for example, when
getting up to talk before a class, uh, he felt
very s o c i a l l y phobic and, uh, uncomfortable, and
alienated from friends.
Q Is t h e information t h a t you, urn, obtained t h r o u g h

the mental s t a t u s examination important, uh, to
consider, as a forensic psychologist, prior to or
during the time that you perform additional
tests?
A It's important to consider it p r i o r to or d u r i n g t h e

administration of additional t e s t s , because I have,
at my office, for example, 150 tests, and you want to
tailor-make the evaluation, to use tests that most

d i r e c t l y address a given case.
I mean, there's some tests t h a t I would

always use in a suggestibility evaluation. Such
as Gudjonsson, for example. But there might be
others that I would i n c l u d e , depending on the

interview and the initial results of t h e i n i t i a l
testing. And, t h e n , I might add others as well.
Q So, would it be f a i r to state that, for instance,
a person, urn, uh -- if, a f t e r you interviewed t h e
person, and they appeared to be of average or
below average intelligence, you may not need to
27
use tests t h a t want to examine them f o r profound
mental retardation?
A Well, if they had average intelligence, I would -- 1
might confirm it with a -- I might have confirmed it

with abbreviated IQ testing. If it was a person who
was profoundly mentally retarded, they wouldn't have
the capability of formulating attempt to commit a

crime, and they would be i n an institution, having
their own personal d a i l y needs t a k e n care of. So,
if --
Q So you're not going to have somebody who's
profoundly mentally retarded, for instance,
complete the evaluations or probably read at a
significant level?
A Well, they won't -- they won't even be charged w i t h a
crime.
Q
r
Uh, just in, Doc or -- in regards to your
evaluation, Doctor, you wouldn't provide those
t y p e of tests that don't fit -- appear to fit t h e
personality of the individual you're examining?

A True.
Q Okay. Can you briefly describe what t e s t s you

did conduct i n regards to your evaluation of
Brendan Dassey?
A Yes. The one, uh -- do you want me to talk about the
I 28
Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale?
However you w i s h to start. Did -- did -- do you
want to go chronologically with the tests that
you performed?
I have a list of them r i g h t here. I ' m going to go
straight from t h e t o p to the bottom, if that's okay?
Thatfs fine.
Uh, one is the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality

Inventory, adolescent v e r s i o n . It's based on a
der -- uh, derivation. It's -- it was altered and
normed with thousands of subjects, uh, from the

Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, which
had originally came out in t h e 1930's by S t a r k e and
Hathaway, psychiatrists and psychologists,

respectively, from t h e University of Minnesota.
ubsequently revised as the
MMPI-2, because they needed a more representative
cross-section of individuals who, uh, represent
the United States population, and they changed

some, uh, given questions, and they re-normed it.
And, then, at the same time, uh,
James B u t c h e r , uh, who d i d -- was instrumental on
t h a t , as well a s Robert A r c h e r , two
psychologists, uh, came up with the MMPI-A, which

is t h e most widely used and researched objective
test of adolescent emotional problems. It has
many specific scales on it that one can review to
form canclusions.
Q Why d i d you choose this test, f o r instance, in
your evaluation of Brendan Dassey?

A One is because it's so well-respected and well-
researched. Secondly, it -- it comes -- it has
scales on it t h a t r e l a t e to suggestibility. Such as,
uh, passivity, social avoidance, social alienation,
uh, anxiety. Uh -- or, in c o n t r a s t , those t h a t

aren't indicative of suggestibility, which would be
the absence of those, but, i n s t e a d , it would be a
person thatfs assertive, or aggressive, or even that
would -- those factors could be evaluated from t h e

MMPI .
Q How many questions are involved in the -- in the

mPI?
--
11
A I was supposed to look that up, wasn't I? I I
believe 566 or 567.
8 And -- and how do you assess t h e answers?

A But i t m i g h t be -- Ivmsorrytointerrupt. It--it
might be s h o r t e r on the MMPI. I might be t a l k i n g

about t h e MMPI-2 with my p r i o r answer.
8 Do -- do you recall how many questions you askea

of Brendan when you performed the MMPI-A?
A I administered the entire test. So, it was at l e a s t ,
uh, 450 questions long or more.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I'll s t i p u l a t e

it's 4 7 8 questionj.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

Q (By Attorney Fremgen) And how do you go about

assessing t h e answers t h a t t h e individual, f o r
instance, in this case, Brendan, provided to you?
A Well, 1 u s e d t h e t r u e / f a l s e questions and see which

items, per scale, were scored in a given direction
which would cause a scale, such as depression, or
anxiety or s o c i a l introversion, to be lower or
higher. And then I put it on a graph.
I also used the validity scale scores

to, urn, a s c e r t a i n w h e t h e r t h e profile is valid.
Whether it's accurate in terms of prescript -- in
terms of describing a person's personality.
Q In regards to assessing t h e t e s t , then, would you

base your opinian gnr letfs say, any one answer
of the 478
I
questions or a small number of
answers?
A Absolutely not.
Q Why n o t ?
A Well, t h e test is constructed so that one looks at
i
scales, not at individual answers, because, taken o u t
of c o n t e x t , a person's true or false answer to a
given question could -- or provide, uh, c o n f u s i n g
r e s u l t s , and i t f s j u s t -- it's not proper protocol.
It's not the way that -- t h a t w e t r e instructed to do
that as psychologists, uh, to -- in order to render

reliable conclusions.
I ' m going to place on t h e screen_,&&i@t

229. <.. <+ In
performing t h e MMPI, were you able to obtain
results to the tests provided to Brendan?

Yes.
And what were those r e s u l t s ?
Well, t h e results I -- t h e r e are approx -- there are
probably -- there are t e n basic clinical scales, but
there are probably 100 or 5 0 supplemental scales that

can be interpreted. All were w i t h i n the average
range, including the validity scale, showing t h a t the
profile was valid.
I
All were in t h e average range except for
four, and those were the ones t h a t you see on
t h a t screen.
Can you, uh -- I believe you have a pointer.

I don't want to b l i n d anybody here. Okay.
And, so I'm clear, you were able to assess
Brendan on a number of t o p i c s and found him to be

average in many of those -- those areas?
I assessed him on a number of scales, and a l l of them
were in the -- within the average range except f o r

four.
Q And -- and these are the f o u r here?
Yes, s i r .
Why were these f o u r , in particular, um, important
to note in regards to your evaluation of Brendan?
Well, I'll point o u t the one that was not
hypochontri -- hypochondriasis. That's not
particularly related to suggestibility.
Why did you i n c l u d e t h a t on this --
I j u s t wanted to be straight forward and honest
and -- and say t h e scores t h a t were high. I didn't
want to leave any out.
What -- what is hypochondriasis?
It's, uh, either a person that has significant -- has

a person's -- who has significant concern about
bodily functioning, health, and, sometimes, it can be
because they have bona fide, real health concerns.
Cancer, migraine headaches, or whatever. Or it can
be that they don't have physical symptoms, but they
have a concern with their h e a l t h anyway, or
stress-related symptoms, and, then, t h a t score would

be elevated in those cases.
So even though this doesnrt have any, uh, urn,
relevance to the issue of suggestibility, you
included it, uh, because it was i n t h e t o p f o u r

of the high scores?
I present information t h a t is un -- that's abnormal.
Okay. Can -- can you then go t h r o u g h the other

three? I'm going -- going to -- I don't want to
put words in your mouth, Doctor, b u t were these
the three t h a t you felt were important in

consideration of the suggestibility issue?
Yes.
Okay. Can you, uh, go through your results,
first w i t h , I guess, the top?
The t o p one is social avoidance. The T-score was 7 2 .
It's easier to explain the percentile of o n e .

What -- first of a l l , if you can, can you
describe what is per -- percentile and what is

the significance of percentile?
I can. O u t of 100 individuals who would have taken
t h a t test, 99 out of a hundred would have scored i n a

more normal range than did Brendan.
And, so, f o r instance, on the social avoidance,
99 would have scored at a more normal range? And
of social avoidance or of being --

Social --
-- socially --
-- avoidance.
Okay. What is t h e significance in -- in regards

to t h a t in your assess -- assessment of
suggestibility?
Individuals who have social problems, who are
passive, who are withdrawn, have a greater likelihood
of being suggestible.
What -- whatts t h e next category that you looked
at with t h e MMPI-A?
Well, I'd like to skip down, if I could, please, to
s o c i a l introversion is a separate scale from s o c i a l
avoidance, and you rely on different questions that

go into those scales from the MMPI-A, but they're
still, basically, evaluating the same thing. Social
withdrawal, s o c i a l avoidance. And on that particular
one, for social introversion, his percentile was 2.3.
In other words, uh, roughly, uh, 97

people -- 97 adolescents out of 100 would have
scored in a norm -- more normal fashion. A lower
f a s h i o n than he on t h a t scale.
So he is more socially introverted than 97
o t h e r s ; is t h a t correct?
Accor -- according to t h i s scale, yes.
Q And, then, there was one other scale that you
looked at?
A Yes. And that's social alienation. And social
alienation, h i s score was 1.5 percentile. Again, uh,

98 1/2, if we could call half -- 98 1/2 individuals
would score on a more normal range on that scale than

did Brendan.
S o c i a l alienation is different than the
other two, because a person who is socially
avoidant and s o c i a l l y introverted would tend to

be s o c i a l l y alienated. They would be cut off
from those w i t h whom they i n t e r a c t and avoided by
those w i t h whom they i n t e r a c t , because they don't
reach out, and they -- and so they're -- they're

j u s t alienated from -- from people who could be,
otherwise, friends, or they -- they live, not
psychotically, but they live in their own world,

a l i e n a t e d from society, so to speak.
Q These scales, these terms, are these your terms

or are these terms that you receive from the
tests?
A They're straight from the MMPI manual, and the, uh,
from the manual and scales from t h e MMPI.
Q The test preparers?

A The test preparers.
What -- what o t h e r t e s t s did you, uh, administer
for Brendan, or to Brendan?
Well, I t h i n k I'll -- I'm s o r r y . I t h i n k I'll s k i p

t h e suggestibility scale and 1'11 skip down to the
16-PF. The 16-PF was developed 15 years ago at the

University of Illinois by a psychologist by the name
of Dr. Raymond Cattell.
He d i d what a -- what's known as factor
analysis. He p u t down a number of normal
questions that would -- that would measure normal
traits of normal individuals, and then he did a
statistical procedure to pull out similarities of
those items. And he found 16 factors, urn, and
one global factor. So, one, t h e global factor,
overall factors, the accommodation, independence.
The o t h e r two on the exhibit there, shy
and deferential versus s o c i a l l y bold and
dominant, are factors -- one of the -- two of the
16 factors contained on the instrument t h a t
measures normal personality t r a i t s .

How does this test assist you in, uh, developing
an opinion or determining whether someone might
be vulnerable to suggestion?
Review of research shows that individuals who are
accommodating, that is, dependent, shy, differential,
more passive, have a greater chance of being --
substan -- depending on t h e degree t h a t it's shown,
is substantially greater chance of being suggestible.

And that comes from research, and, also,
uh, my t r a i n i n g , and t h e books t h a t I've

reviewed, and the research I've done online,
suggest t h e very use of this test showed t h i s ,
and to r e v i e w the outcome on these three
particular scales.
Q What, uh, results did you obtain from this t e s t

in regards to Brendan?
A Well, unfortunately, I don't have, and wasn't able to
easily obtain, the percentile. So, all I can do is
show to the j u r y t h a t fox accommodation, he's on the
lower end of the scale. Not every one, but, s t i l l ,

the lower end of the scale on accommodation, the
lower end of t h e scale on shy, and the over -- the
l o n e r end of the scale f o r being deferential, or
passive, which are all consistent w i t h each other and
are consistent, by the way, w i t h the MMPI r e s u l t s .

Q What o t h e r tests d i d y o u p e r f o m i n r e g a r d s t o - -
to Brendan?
A f performed, also, t h e , uh, State Trait Expression,
uh, beg your pardon. The State T r a i t Anger

Expression Inventory, which is an objective t e s t that
measures normal and abnormal ways of expressing
anger.
Why d i d you choose that test to conduct in
regards to -- to this evaluation of Brendan?

Well, I wanted to see if he was angry. If a person
is angry and dominant, then they tend to n o t be

suggestible. If they -- if t h e score shows t h a t
they're passive, and deal with their anger by keeping
it to themselves, or n o -. t r e a l l y b e i n g angry very
.
I
o f t e n , then that hould, again, be related to -- to
suggestibility.
What results, if any, did you determine in
regards to t h i s test as it applied to Brendan?
The test scores showed that he is passive and, uh,

subdued.
Before I go to the next test, you -- l e t me go
back to the 16-PF, and, I suppose, possibly, in
regards to t h e State Trait Anger Expression
Inventory -- urn, you -- at the end of your -- a3
you were finishing test -- testifying as to the

16-PF, you said t h a t it's also important to
consider this test as a way to validate the MMPI
to see if i t t s consistent; is that correct?
It's important to synthesize all of t h e different
tests into one conclusion and consider a11 of them,
yes.
Q So, let me ask you t h i s , hypothetically: if, for

instance, you had performed four t e s t s , and three
seemed to be consistent, b u t one seemed to be
well away from what you've seen thus far, would
that o f f e r you some concern in t h e tests --

testing of t h e individual?
A It would not -- it would cause me c o n c e r n on how to

most a c c u r a t e l y s y n t h -- put t o g e t h e r those results
into a -- an opinion.
Q So it had an impact on your final opinion?

A I t would. Absolutely.
Q Want to pull t h e m i k e a little closer?

A Absolutely.
Q Sorry for interrupting you. Let's go -- we'll go

to the next set of tests that you performed?
A Yes.
Q And what was that?

A Well, I performed t w o , uh, IQ t e s t s . One is t h e
Wechsler Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence. And it

o r i g i n a l l y came from David Wechsler, uh, in 1932, at
the -- i n a Bellevue clinic, and it was called the
Wechsler-Bellevue Intelligence Test established in
1939.
Urn, since then, it's been revised and
abbreviated as we And the Wechsler
Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence, uh, reliably
assesses intellectual functioning, IQ, of adults

and children.
Q Now, I have on the screen Exhibit 228. Does that

indicate, uh, r e s u l t s of those t w o intelligence
quotient tests?
A I don' t know if the j u r y can read it, s o I -- I would
need to read it, I believe, without blinding t h e
c o u r t reporter
Q Howls that?
A That's good. Now, to e x p l a i n t h e top part, if you'd
l i k e me to --
Q Please.
A It shows an average IQ is 100. That's why 5 0 people
out of a hundred would score higher -- who obtain a
score of higher of a hundred and 50 would score lower

than a hundred.
Then, from 90 down t o 70, or, a c t u a l l y ,
from 90 down to 8 4 , is the low average range of

intelligence. From 70 --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if I may, on what
scale is he referring to? That 90 to 8 4 is low

average. If h e l s talking about Wechsler or Kaufman,
I'd l i k e him to -- to state that.
I
THE COURT: All right. Can you identify
which of the -- the tests, uh, r e f l e c t those
scores?
THE WITNESS: The Kaufman has an IQ
score of 8 3 , which is n o t a test that I described
yet, but it's comparable to the Wechsler
Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Doctor, I'm s o r r y to

interrupt you. I t h i n k t h e q u e s t i o n by the
prosecutor, the objection, was, is the base used

to evaluate the actual results t h e same on the
Wechsler and Kaufman? That is, is the base of
what is average 100, what is below average, what
you've said was 90 to 84, and probably the other

numbers on the scale, the same scale used in
completing a base for the purposes of
interpreting the results in both t h e Kaufman and
the Wechsler?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Now, if you could continue -- I'm sorry to

interrupt you -- in regards to what the, uh,
a c t u a l results were w i t h Brendan and how they
compare to the base -- base scale?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if -- if I may j u s t
sharpen my -- my point, I wanted to make sure that
this doctor was saying that, on the Wechsler Scale,
90 to 8 4 is considered below average. I think
that's what he said. And I want to make sure that
was, in fact, your testimony.

THE WITNESS: My testimony is, based on
the d i a g n 6 s t i c and statistical manual of mental

disorders, which shows t h a t individuals who have
IQ's of 84 -- 70 t o 84 -- is one facet of
diagnosing a mental -- uh, borderline mental
intelligence. On the other hand, according to
Wechsler norms, a score of 70 to 80 is i n the

borderline range.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: If I may, then, Judge, 1
am going to o b j e c t as -- a s irrelevant. If hers
s a y i n g the Wechsler Scale goes all the way down to
80 for low average, doesn't go to 8 4 , and that's
what this chart says, that would, uh -- would --

would be irrelevant. I f he's using some o t h e r thing
to score it w i t h , l i k e t h e DSM-4, which I now heard,
uh, that's something o t h e r than this chart purports.

And I would interpose an objection.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well, I can ask the

doctor some more foundation questions as to the
chart, itself, that he created.
I 43
THE COURT: I -- I t h i n k we're going to
have to do that. And I'll rule -- I'll -- 1'11
withhold ruling on t h e o b j e c t i o n .
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) Doctor, you -- you
provided this, um -- a chart t h a t was used to
make the Exhibit 228; correct?
A Yes.
Q And you included both the Wechsler and the

Kaufman intelligence quotient on results and the
tests on the one chart; correct?
A Correct.
Q Why is it that they're both combined? Or why is
it you felt necessary to combine both to one

exhibit?
A To make it simpler to understand, and be -- and I
used the Wechsler -- I mean, I used t h e DSM-4, uh,

norms, simply because that's what's commonly used,
and if I would not use those, individuals would be

asking me why I didn't use those, because in every
mental status and psychiatric r e p o r t under the, uh --
that comes out f o r c l i n i c a l and f o r e n s i c reasons,
they ask precisely what a person's diagnosis is on
the DSM-4.
Q Well, again, if we can set aside DSM-4 f o r j u s t a
I 44
moment --
A I ' m sorry.
Q -- specifically, regards to Wechsler and Kaufman,

is there a base scale under t h e Kaufman
Intelligence Test?
A No.
a Is there a base scale from the Wechsler?

A You mean base scale on how to divide it into
categories?
Q Correct.
A Uh, yes.
Q Okay. Under Kaufrnan?
A No.
Q Just on Wechsler?
A
Q
Yes.
So --
l
so this scale, then, is actually the
Wechsler?
A This -- the scores are from t h e Wechsler a n d Kaufman.
Q No. I'm s o r r y , Doctor. The scale, n o t the

score.
A Oh, I l r n s o r r y . I
Q It's this document, here, where it says IQ

percentile, is t h i s actually t h e Wechsler?
A No.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Renew my objection, Judge.
1 45
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Is it --
THE COURT: I understand. Hold on a second
here. This is going to get terribly confusing

unless the witness can segregate, one, what's on
this t e s t . -- <what -- what -- or, excuse me.
What I
What's on the exhibit in t h e g r a p h i c portion of the
exhibit? What that reflects. And, two, if that's
different than -- than Wechsler test as it appears
to --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I understand, Judge.
THE COURT: -- be, uh, that -- t h a t he,
then, e x p l a i n s t h a t as well. Now, can he do that?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I ' m going to ask the
doctor that.
THE COURT: A 1 1 right. Go ahead.
(By Attorney Fremgen) Doctor, can you

distinguish the t w o ? The Wechsler versus t h e
Kauf man?
Yes.
And without using the exhibit, Doctor, d i d you

have -- come to any conclusions with regards to
the evaluation of Brendan pertaining to the
Wechsler Intelligence T e s t ?
It's my conclusion that he is in t h e borderline range
of intelligence.
Q What score did he -- do you recall what score he,
urn, you -- you calculated in regards to t h a t
test?
A Which one again?

Q Kaufman?
A Kaufman was 8 3 .
Q And you indicated that's in t h e average or below

average scale?
A That's in the borderline range.
8 Borderline.
A According to --
Q Can you describe what b o r d e r l i n e means?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Again, Judge, borderline
from what scale? I -- I have to a s k .

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: The question was in
regards to Wechsler. And if t h e prosecutor would
listen to t h e answer, he would have heard him say
that scale.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: We'll -- we'll hear if
it's t h e Wechsler Scale. Go ahead, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: I misspoke. According to
the Wechsler Scale, it's in the low average
range. The lower end of the low average range.

Q What significance does t h a t have, b e i n g i n t h e
lower average range?
I 47
A It means -- well, since he's in the lower end of t h e
low average range, the significance means t h a t he has
problems as shown in his school records with, uh --
and his need f o r special e d u c a t i o n , h i s problems
with, uh, learning, problems w i t h concentration,
problems w i t h -- w i t h functioning at a n intellectual

level that's -- that's i n t h e average r a n g e .
Q What is t h e p e r c e n t i l e ? Is t h e r e -- or,
should -- I should ask you, is t h e r e a percentile
associated with t h e score Brendan received on t h e

Wechsler test?
A T h e r e may be. f don't have it w r i t t e n down. I think
it may have been on the chart that you took o f f t h e
screen. I know it was there. I don't have that

written down.
Q Do you have a n y , uh, notes w i t h you as to those

results?
A No. Well, I may. I may.
Q Doctor, did you --

A I -- I do.
Q Okay.
A I do. And that's at the, uh, 10th percentile.
Q What significance does t h e percentile have? Or

how -- how can you -- can you describe what t h a t
significance is in regards to, uh, evaluating t h e
48
intelligence test results pertaining to Brendan?
A On the Wechsler Abbreviated Scale -- Scale of
Intelligence, 90 people out of a hundred -- 90

adolescents in -- in his own age group -- would have
performed intellectually better than he.
Q Now, I'm going to ask you in regards to the

Kaufman test.
A Yes, sir.
Q And, again, these are both, f o r l a c k of a better

term, an IQ teat?
A True.
Q In regards to the Kaufman test, what, uh, results

d i d you, uh, formulate, uh, when you provided t h e
test to Brendan?
A He had a composite, an overall IQ compound score,
overall IQ score, of 83, which is at t h e 13th
percentile.
Q And, again, what significance does that

percentile have in your, uh, evaluation of
Brendan?
A It shows that, uh, he has intellectual shortcomings
to t h e p o i n t that 87 adolescents his age would have
performed better on that test than he did.
Q Why perform two intelligence tests on Brendan?
A I, uh -- t h i s is an important case. I wanted to be
49
thorough. I wanted to do it right.
Were the two r e s u l t s consistent?
Yes.
What I mean by that, I suppose, be more specific,
consistent with each other?
True.
And, previously, you mentioned you were
performing a number of t e s t s in order to
determine, f o r one, whether or not y o u r results

were consistent throughout the tests. Was this
test results consistent with other observations
you, urn, uh, or the other observations from the
other tests?
Not necessarily. Uh, I could say that a i n d i v i d u a l

w i t h lower IQ might be more l i k e l y to be more
passive, more uninvolved. But, sometimes,
individuals w i t h lower IQ don't want to be
embarrassed a b o u t their low IQ and act out, uh, and
cause trouble so that they -- t h e i r low IQ isn't seen

to others, and so they're n o t exposed. So I really
can't say it's related.
So, now, you're not saying, then, that a person
with low IQ is necessarily s u g g e s t i b l e ; correct?

Sometimes. W i t h i n extremely low IQ score, they --
that c o u l d be a very significant f a c t o r . Uh, but
you're -- but, u s u a l l y , uh, I -- a person would still
a d m i n i s t e r a n entire battery.
Q So o n e test, in a n d of i t s e l f , wouldn't be enough

for you to make an opinion on whether a person is
vulnerable to suggestion?
A It wouldn't be enough for me. A n d I d o n ' t t h i n k it
would be enough f o r the majority of forensic

psychologists who are experienced in assisting the
court and juries.
Q Would the IQ test, in and of itself, be enough

for you i n making t h a t determination?
A I n this case?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Did you perform any other tests in relation to

your evaluation of Brendan Dassey?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what t e s t w a s that?
A That was the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scales. The
reason it's p l u r a l is there a r e two scales -- two

scales that haven't been norrned to the degree t h a t
they're helpful i n this particular k i n d of h e a r i n g .
Two have been normed to t h e p o i n t where

they're alternate forms. So you could give one
form to a person one week, and a n o t h e r form to a
51
person another week, and -- and they -- they're
j u s t alternate forms and we'll g e t the same
results.
Q Can you b r i e f l y describe this t e s t ?

A Yes. It was constructed, like I s a i d , uh, by Gisli
Gudjonsson in the e a r l y 80's to deal with

interrogative suggestibility. Uh, rather t h a n d e f i n e
that, which is a lot of words, and I don't t h i n k it
would be t h a t helpful, I -- I would just s a y that
t h e r e are t w o aspects of interrogative

suggestibility. Uh, suggestibility when a person is
being interrogated. And that's what it assesses.
And there are t w o aspects. One is y i e l d

and one is s h i f t .
Q Could you describe, or define, what is "yield" in
the Gudjonsson Suggestible Scale?
A Y i e l d is when a person answers i n a -- provides a
response to a leading question. Even respond --

provides a response to a leading question which is
not facts that have been presented to them. They

haven't -- t h e y don't know about that. Or they're --
it's an incorrect statement.
Q What is " s h i f t " under the Gudjonsson --

A Well, s h i f t -- the -- t h e i n d i v i d u a l is -- is read
52
a -- is presented as a memory t e s t , and they're read
a crime s c e n e . And, then, they're asked to repeat
it.
Then, l a t e r on, it could be immediately
or later on, up to half hour, 4 5 minutes, you ask

the questions again. Or you ask questions based
on that -- on t h e story. And you see whether
they answer i n a, yes, fashion to leading
questions.
Then, a f t e r that is done, then you exert
mild pressure, or mild criticism to them by
saying -- I could pull out the e x a c t --
Q No, that's okay. If you can j u s t recall from
your memory?
A But it's something to the point where, urn, subject,
uh, you have, uh, made a number of errors. I know

you can do b e t t e r . I need you to t h i n k about this
more carefully. And I'm going to ask you the same
questions and I want you to do b e t t e r this time.
And, then, the s h i f t is the degree to --

the number of times that a person changes their
answer from the f i r s t question -- time they're
questioned to the second time they're questioned
with the very same questions.
Q Now, I have on the screen, Exhibit 230. Is t h i s
53
the results that you received when you performed
t h e Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale on Brendan?
A Yes.
Q And if you could j u s t -- you've already defined

shift and y i e l d . If you c o u l d i n d i c a t e the
significance of t h e o t h e r three, urn, categories;

"score", "percentile1', and "average"?
A Sure. On the yield, which should be a t the -- it's
the first set of 25 q u e s t i o n s that are asked. Five
questions a r e related. They're j u s t neutral
questions. So they're -- on t h e -- but on t h e y i e l d ,
15 questions a r e y i e l d questions. And he answered in
a y i e l d i n g f a s h i o n , in terms of leading questions, 7
times.
On t h e shift, he changed h i s answers 9
times out of 20 potential questions.
And, then, t h e average individual t a k i n g
the t e s t would s h i f t -- would y i e l d to l e a d i n g
questions 4 times o u t of 15, and 2 times they
would change their answers when they were read

the questions again, 2 times o u t of 20 of the
questions that are designed to measure t h a t .
Uh, so the difference here i s 2 and 9

and 4 a n d 7 , resulting i n a percentile score t h a t
individuals t a k i n g that t e s t , only three out of
54
I
100 would s h i f t t h e i r answers more than Brendan

did. And o n l y 2 0 out of 100 would y i e l d their
questions. To give in and go along with leading
questions more than Brendan.
So, he had a greater tendency to s h i f t

h i s answers due to pressure than h e did, simply,
answer them when there were leading questions
without pressure.
The way you get the total score, is you
add up the s h i f t and the y i e l d to get a total
score of 16. And, so, the average person would
get a score of 7, and the percentile f o r the
total of these two, for t h e total score, would be
95. F i v e people out of one hundred would obtain
more yielding and s h i f t i n g responses t h a n d i d he.

Ninety-five would not.
Q Was this the last test that you performed or
conducted on Brendan in regards to your
evaluation as to whether he was vulnerable to
suggestion?
A Yes.
5;! And, based upon these r e s u l t s and t h e mental
status, uh, examination, as well as o t h e r
collateral information, were you able to reach,

uh, an o p i n i o n as to w h e t h e r or not Brendan is,
55
uh, a person who is vulnerable to suggestion?
Yes.
Is that opinion to a reasonable degree of
psychological certainty?
Yes.
And what is that opinion you have?
Tt's my opinion that -- that he's highly suggestible,
uh, when being interrogated, i n responding to l e a d i n g
questions or p r e s s u r e , mild pressure, if that, in
fact, is p r e s e n t .
Is that based -- your opinion based s o l e l y on t h e

Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale or a combination
of the other t e s t s , the series of tests, t h a t you
performed on Brendan?
It's based on my knowledge of the research, based on

the -- the, uh, collateral data that we've t a l k e d
about. It's based on a l l of the personality t e s t s
that I used, a n d IQ tests that I used, a n d it's also
based on t h e Gudjonsson Scale.
Would it be -- as a forensic psychologist, would

it be appropriate to consider just one test t h a t
was performed in isolation from the others?
It would not be recommended practice. Even if a
person had a substantially low IQ. Like I said at

the very beginning of my testimony, this is -- these
a r e important matters that I testify before, and
f o r e n s i c psychologists testify a b o u t , and -- and to
n o t do a thorough job and not t o do anything less

than that wouldn't be -- wouldn't be right, both
ethically and by my own s t a n d a r d s .
Q You had indicated before t h a t you've, uh,

performed similar evaluations on approximately
five -- in approximately five other i n s t a n c e s ?
A A t least that, y e s .
Q Did you perform t h e exact same t e s t s in each

circumstance?
A No.
Q So some of t h e tests performed on Brendan you may

have n o t -- you may not have used on o t h e r s ?
A Eitherbecause I d i d n o t p o s s e s s themorbecause I
a c q u i r e d f u r t h e r information from seminars and -- and
from my review of the literature that indicated t h a t
other tests might be more helpful to use as well.
Q Is the Gudjon -- Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale
consistent within your evaluations?

A T did n o t use it on one -- at least one that I can
t h i n k of. I -- I didn't have it at that point.
It -- it was d i f f i c u l t to o b t a i n . You ord -- you
have to order it through New Y o r k and submit your
credentials, v i a i n t e r n e t , to t h e -- to London, and
57
it's -- it's a unwielding process. But, finally, I
did succeed. It took me about a year to g e t the t e s t

once I decided I wanted it. It should be made
much -- I shouldn't give an editorial.
In reaching your conclusion, your opinion, were

there any other factors that you considered, urn,
more probative than other factors in assessing
Brendan's vulnerability to suggestion?
No.
What --
N o t in this case.
Let me c l a r i f y your answer a s -- would it be

consistent, then, that you consider all factors
probative?
Uh, yes. And I -- I wouldn't be a b l e to assign a
percentage.
Do you recall what f a c t o r s that you considered

when you, uh, um, reached your conclusion as to
Brendan's, uh level of vulnerability to
suggestion?
I considered a l l that I t e s t i f i e d to, plus it -- the
way in which the police asked -- t h e detective asked
the questions, and, uh that's p r e t t y much it.
Now --
The length of time he was in custody. The -- the

soft room t h a t h e was in t h a t made him more relaxed
and comfortable to talk. Uh --
Q Let me ask you t h i s : A r e t h o s e factors t h a t , i n
t h e r e s e a r c h b y Gudjonsson, i s something to
consider when assessing a person's, uh,
vulnerability to suggestion?
A Yes.
Q A n d you t o u c h e d upon a f e w . In f a c t , when I

asked you to elaborate, you touched upon what I
believe Gudjonsson refers to as circumstances of
custody. Do you recall t h a t ? Touched upon
d u r a t i o n and --
A Sure.
Q Why did -- w e l l , what significance does d u r a t i o n

of custody have in assessing an individual's, uh,
uh, level of susceptibility to suggestion?
A The longer they're i n c u s t o d y , the more a n x i o u s t h e y

probably become, the more fatigued t h e y become, and
t h e more susceptible t h e y become t o offering a
confession, whether it be false or t r u e . Just t o

o f f e r i n g a confession when t h e y otherwise might n o t
have.
Q A r e you familiar w i t h the length of custody in
regards to Brendan in -- in -- in regards to the

statement made on May -- March 1, 2006?
59
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, if I may i n t e r p o s e
an o b j e c t i o n . I t h i n k "custody" is a l e g a l term.
If that could be expressed in some other way, I'd

appreciate that.
THE COURT: Well --

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That's fine. I'll
rephrase -- TI11 rephrase. That's f i n e , Judge.
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) The duration of t h e
interview process, would t h a t -- you u n d e r s t a n d
what I 'rn a s k i n g you, Doctor?
A Yes.
Q Row l o n g he was there with the officers?
A I believe it was in the neighborhood of four hours on
at l e a s t one occasion.
Q But, approximately, y o u b e l i e v e it was around

four hours?
A Yes.
Q Does the length of the police presence, and t h a t
I -- I shall t r y to d e f i n e better. The length of
time that the individual is with t h e police, is

t h a t a f a c t o r under Gudjonsson's research to
consider in assessing a person's level of
suggestibility?
A Yes.
Q And are you familiar with how long the police had
60
been involved with Brendan p r i o r to making t h e
March 1, 2006, statement?
I d o n ' t know f o r s u r e , but I think it was a t l e a s t
several days. That I don't have committed to memory.
Again, in regards to the Gudjonsson research,

what other f a c t o r s does the Gudjonsson, urn,
suggest to, for l a c k of a b e t t e r term, t h a t re --
t h a t forensic psychologists or person's
performing evaluations consider as a f a c t o r in
pertaining to their opinions about

suggestibility?
Uh, sleep deprivation, urn --
Well, let's go t h r o u g h each one. Was that a
consideration in this case?

No.
Okay.
Another is the way in which t h e interrogation was

conducted.
Is that something that you considered, a g a i n , in
reaching your conclusions in t h i s case?

Yes. I reviewed the, uh, w r i t t e n data, as well as
reviewed the, uh, C D s .
And -- and in t h a t regard, are you referring,
s p e c i f i c a l l y , to t h i s issue of y i e l d and shift
from the scale?

A Yes.
Q And 1'11 g e t back to that. What o t h e r , uh,

f a c t o r s does Gudjonsson -- Gudjonsson recommend
using by the evaluator?

A Well, considering whether promises were made, whether
a person was told of -- that t h e case was an absolute
certainty that they would be found guilty. Whether

they were t o l d that there were other in -- there was
other information that showed their g u i l t when it d i d
not -- was n o t present. When they appealed to
d i f f e r e n t themes o f -- such as, uh, we know you

really didn't -- minimizing t h e serious, we know you
really didn't mean to do this, or w e know youfre --
you're -- weren't really an active participant, or we
know you wouldn't have done this. Now, if you had it
t o do over a g a i n , o r your f a m i l y will be spared a
lot.
Uh, there are a l l kinds of different
themes t h a t can be developed by an i n t e r r o g a t o r
to increase the likelihood of that o c c u r r i n g .

And, then, as the person generally weakens and --
and get -- a n d becomes f a t i g u e d , there's a
greater chance that they will then give a
statement.
The likelihood of retraction is very
62
g r e a t in cases l i k e t h i s when this is a
confession. That's why, uh, it's important to
consider whether a written statement was derived
from it. Urn --

Q Let -- l e t me get back to -- I'll -- I'll -- 1'11
have some specific questions for you. But let me

get back to -- you were talking about techniques
or i n t e r r o g a t i o n style. Urn, now, again, I -- if

I recall c o r r e c t l y , this has something to do w i t h
yield and shift; correct?
A That's t r u e .
Q Now, did you note a n y o f those s p e c i f i c , uh, i f

you recall, if I might summarize it, as being,
you said, leading questions, f o r i n s t a n c e , and

praising or -- or, urn, uh, feelings types of
questions?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Let me a s k you, again, you reviewed t h e

March 1, 2007 -- or, sorry, 2006 statement;
correct?
A Correct.
Q I'm going to show you what has been marked as

216. Do you r e c a l l also r e c e i v i n g t h a t
transcript of the March 1, 2006, v i d e o state --
statement?
63
A Yes.
Q As an example, I'd l i k e you to turn to page 6f5?
A I am -- I found the page.
Q Three down. I guess it would be three names

down. I t h i n k it starts, "Fassbender." That's a
large paragraph.
A I see t h a t .
Q If you could, uh, begin r e a d i n g f r o m , "again --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I'm going to --
excuse me. I'd l i k e to interpose an objection. Uh,
and if we could approach or if I could be heard
outside the presence of t h e j u r y , I ' d appreciate it.
We can probably do it by approaching.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Approach.

(Discussion off t h e record)
Q (By Attorney Fremgen) I ' m sorry. Doctor, do you

have before you, now, that same transcript?
A I do.
Q Okay. You're at page 615?

A I am.
Q And starting with, um, that same line where it's,
"Fassbender," begins, "again," or -- could you
read -- and it's a long paragraph. I ' m n o t goFng
to a s k you to read the whole paragraph, but if

you can read through to, I believe it's the
64
f o u r t h sentence, where it starts, "I j u s t don't
see t h a t . " If you can read that, p l e a s e ? I'm
s o r r y , read it o u t l o u d if you could?
A I -- I had to find o u t where I was supposed to stop.
Q Okay.
A Sorry.
Q That's f i n e .
A ( A s read) "Again, er, whether Blaine saw it or n o t ,
the time periods aren't adding up. They're not
equaling out. We know w h e t h e r -- we know when Teresa
got t h e r e . "
I n parenthesis, "Brendan nods yes." End
parenthesis. "Urn, and, I know -- I guarantee ya,
Teren -- Teresa's n o t standing on a porch when

you come home from school."
Q Okay. Then, if you could s k i p down to where it

says, "Brendan" right after that paragraph? And
what is his -- what is the response?

A "I got o f f the bus. 1 w a l k e d down the road, and when
I got to t h a t t h i n g , uh, the other house, I j u s t s i t

i n t h e r e f o r nothing. I can see her jeep in the
garage j u s t sitting there, and I didn't see Steven
and her on t h e porch."
Q The next line that s t a r t s with "Wiegert?"
A "You -- you did or you didn't?''
65
Q And then "Brendan?"
A "I didn't."
Q Okay. Is this an example, f o r instance, of
the -- the two --I ode of the two phenomenons,
yield or shift?
A Yes.
Q And what is it?

A It's a phenomenon -- uh, I -- I -- it may be leading
in terms of -- it -- i t t s likely both. And --
Q I'm -- I'm sorry. You s a i d l i k e l y b o t h ?
A Both.
Q It -- it's -- and is that possible when you're
doing, uh, an evaluation under Gudjonsson, t h a t
you might have something that is a k i n d of a

hybrid of b o t h ?
A On t h e high -- on t h e Gudjonsson, it -- the -- only
measures leading to keep it pure and s h i f t . Uh, it
doesn't have the two combined. But in real l i f e ,
oftentimes questions contain b o t h . There's mild
pressure, as well, of some s o r t , or mild attempts to

have a s h i f t along with corn -- combination with a
leading question with a --
Q A n d i n this example, wasBrendanfs a n s w e r a
shift?
A It was b o t h .
66
Q Aresponsetoleading - - t o y i e l d a n d t o s h i f t ?
A Yes.
Q Back on 615, Doctor, the same paragraph, that

large paragraph, where it begins "Fassbender?"
A Yes.
Q Near the very end of that paragraph, it -- it
begins, "I can tell you, we don't believe." Can

you read t h a t l i n e ?
A (As read) "1 can tell you, we don't believe you
because there's some things that a r e wrong, but you

got to tell the truth."
Q And, again, is t h a t that factor you w e r e
discussing in consideration of yield and shift?
A That's in consideration of a shift.

I
That's the interrogation factor t h a t you were
Q
talking about?
A True.
Q L e t me ask you if you could skip to page 587?
A I'm there.
Q And if you could go eight lines down? Starts

with -- t h e person speaking is -- it says,
Q
"Wiegert?"
Yes.
If you could rea
stop?
I from there until I ask you to
How many lines down?
Uh, eight. Starts with, "Wiegert." It starts,
"SO S t e v e s t a b s . "
Okay. (As read) "So Steve -- Steve stabs h e r first
and then you cut her neck."

l'3rendan1' -- in parenthesis, "Brendan
nods, uh, y e s . " End parenthesis.
"What else happens to h e r in her head?"
"Fassbender: It's extremely, extremely
important you tell us this f o r us to believe
you. "
"Wiegert : Come on, Brendan, what else?"
"Pause. "
"Fassbender: We know. We just know.
You need to tell us."

I'm sorry. Could you read that line again?
"We know. We just need you to tell us. "
"Brendan: That's all I can remember."
"Wiegert: "All right. I'm just going
to come out and ask you, who shot her in t h e
head?
"Brendan: He d i d .
"Fassbender --
That ' s -- that I s f i n e , Doctor, right there.
I f m sorry.
Q And -- and -- and, a g a i n , at t h a t point, is --
Uh, my question is, essentially, t h e same as
before. Is this an example of t h e yield or shift
t h a t you were describing previously in the
A Shift.
Q And -- and why is it s h i f t ?

A Because there's pressure to give a statement r a t h e r
than merely e l i c i t information.

Q And I ' m g o i n g t o a s k j u s t o n e last example. If
you could skip to page 5 7 4 ?
A Yes, s i r .
Q If you, uh, go seven lines down. Again, it

s t a r t s with Offices Wiegert. And it says, "We
know what happened." S t a r t with that line?
A (As read) "Wiegert: We know what hap -- we know

happened. "
"Fassbender: It's hard to be t r u t h f u l . "
"Wiegert: We know what happened. It's

okay. What did you do?"
"Brendan: I didn't do nothing."
"Bxendan. Brendan. Brendan, come on,
what did you do?ft

That's what it says.
Q If you can go a l i t t l e f u r t h e r ?
A (As read) "Fassbender: What does Steven make you
do?"
"Wiegert: Tt's not y o u r f a u l t . He

makes you do i t . f t
"Brendan: He told me to do her. l1
Q And at that p o i n t , again, are -- is t h i s , again,

an example of these lines, uh, the officerst
questions, a n d t h e responses, example of the
technique you were r e f e r r i n g to in how one s h i f t s
their answers or yields?
A It's an example of using a theme of minimizing, uh,
responsibility or culpability or seriousness of a
crime, and being sympathetic in an attempt to have a
person answer l e a d i n g questions.
Q Okay. And that's the yield that you're

describing on Gudjonsson?
A Yes.
Q I won't go t h r o u g h any further examples, b u t
would it be f a i r to state that you did review
both transcripts, as well as t h e tape and

observed other examples?
A I certainly did.
Q I -- what I want to go back to is, uh, some

additional f a c t o r s t h a t you considered in regards
to, uh, your evaluation. Did you consider
I i
character of t h e defendant? His age, for
instance?
A Yes.
Q And what significance does h i s age have on your
opinion that he is, uh, urn, susceptible to
suggestion?
A Individuals, who are minors, have a greater
likelihood of b e i n g susceptible, especially, even
when they're older minors, i.e., or, that is 15 or
16, uh, they have a much higher likelihood of being
susceptibil -- susceptible, especially when
they're -- when that's coupled w i t h low intellectual
functioning.
Q Does a lack of life experiences or maturity level
also impact?
A It's --
Q On that decision?
A Yes.
Q Were you able to -- well, do you have any o p i n i o n

in regards to Brendan, as f a r as l a c k of l i f e
experiences or maturity level?
A His life experiences are limited because of his
social withdrawal and social alienation, a n d his

living within -- within himself and within a --
mostly relating to his family, n o t f r i e n d s .
71
8 Does one's familiarity with t h e p o l i c e , is that a
factor to consider based on t h e research of -- in
the Gudjonsson, um, research in formulating a n
opinion on one's susceptibility to suggestion?
A Based on Gudjonsson research and others, yes, that's
true.
Q And was that a consideration with you when you
spoke to -- when you r a t e -- uh, reached your
conclusions about Brendan?
A Yes.
Q How so?
A Individuals, who have minimal or no c o n t a c t -- with
no criminal history, have a greater chance of -- or a
greater susceptibility to being suggestible.
Q Does anxiety -- is that a f a c t o r to consider, uh,

in the research or in the Gudjonsson research
when reaching yo r concLusions as to
Y
susceptibility to suggestion?
A Yes.
Q And was that a factor in t h i s case when you met

with Brendan?
A Yes, because both state anxiety, anxiety a t t h e time
of an i n c i d e n t , of an interview, as well as t r a i t
anxiety, whether a person has a trait of being
anxious, in general, during their life, is correlated
I 72
with increased suggestibility as well.
Q In regards to, uh, learning disabilities, is t h a t
a factor t h a t .you
. would consider in reaching your
conclusion?
A Yes.
Q And was that a factor in this case?

A Brendan told me that it was a f a c t o r during the
interview, and I, subsequently, had a n opportunity to
review about two inches, uh, worth of, uh -- two
inches of collateral data from the school system

showing that he had been having substantial learning
problems, and special programming, and individual
education programs throughout his education.
Or, I should restate. At least that --

I
back to f o u r t h grade. Maybe e a r l i e r . And it was
pointed out to me.
Q But -- but you o n l y had t h e material back to

fourth grade?
A I believe so.
Q Urn, would you consider any one of these
characteristics, or t r a i t s , individual? Away

f r o m the -- I guess the context of it in i t s
totality when making your determination whether

one is susceptible to suggestion?
A No.
73
Q Why n o t ?
A It's essential to do a comprehensive evaluation to
g e t t h e most accurate -- have the most accurate,
valid conclusions to let this j u r y know what the

s t a t u s is of Brendanfs suggestibility, or l a c k
thereof. And to do that, I administered a variety of
tests, as do other forensic psychologists, who do

this type of work, to provide that information.
Q When you reached your conclusion that you've

previously stated, did you consider a l l of these
factors?
A I should answer out loud. Absolutely.
Q Is the factor -- is another factor to consider,

memory or memory d e f i c i t s ?
A It is.
Q Now, in t h a t regard, did you actually perform any

tests on Brendan to assess his memory?
A No.
Q Did you review any collateral information that
might, uh, have, uh, assisted you in determining
what level of -- or what type of memory he has?

A Yes.
Q And what were those records?

A Records were --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, excuse me.
74
A -- s c h o o l records.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I'm going to ask that

that question be phrased before or after h e r s
rendered his opinion in this case.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I n o t h e r words, when they
were -- when they were reviewed and -- and were they

included in h i s o p i n i o n .
THE COURT: Go ahead. Rephrase it.
Q (By A t t o r n e y Fremgen) And my question is, d i d
you review any records that reflected upon

Brendan's memory? Whether he h a s a deficit or
not? And was -- d i d you review those before or
a f t e r you performed your original evaluation of
Brendan?
A That's two questions. I, uh reviewed documents
regarding memory, b u t those documents were from t h e
school, and t h e y occurred a f t e r the time that I wrote
a report summarizing my findings.
Q Did it impact -- did those additional records

impact on your opinion?
A They reinforced, uh, and were consistent w i t h my
opinion.
Q In regard to your opinion, in case I may have
75
else.
proceeding; is that correct?
No, it's not unusual.
A r e there, however, rules of professional conduct
for a practicing p s y c h o l o g i s t , similar to t h e
rules of professional conduct that lawyers have
to -- have to live by?
I don't know if there -- whether there1s rules.

T h e r e are e t h i c a l standards and p r i n c i p l e s , y e t , for
both the American Psychological Association and, a s
promulgated by, uh, the, uh, forensic component that
I referred to, of the APA.
All right. And I understood, at l e a s t from, uh,

a last opportunity that you and I had to talk,
uh, about this case, that, uh, you are vigilant
in complying with those rules? In other words,

and n o t to p u t too sharp a point on it, but, uh,
you p r i d e yourself i n not j u s t g i v i n g t h e answer
that a client wants t o hear, b u t , uh, i n giving

both sides, if, in fact, that is what the
evidence points t o ; isn't t h a t true?
I try my best.
Do your, urn, ethical rules, in fact, uh, prohibit

or frown upon promising, urn, what you might s a y
in advance of being retained by a s p e c i f i c

client?
A Yes.
Q Do they frown upon a p r e d i c t i o n or an advanced,

urn, promise of what you might say in c o u r t o r in
a testimony k i n d of s e t t i n g ?
A They don't frown on saying whether the case seems

l i k e it's worthy of evaluation, b u t in terms of
promising results in w r i t i n g or a t testimony, that's

n o t proper.
Q As an example, it's not proper to promise t h a t
you won't change your opinion, or you won't

change your answer, as a r e s u l t of what we're
going to do now, which is cross-examination?
That's true; isn't it?
A My o p i n i o n is my opinion. So, it -- it's not

changing.
Q My question is, is it improper, uh, within your

rules of professional, urn, standards, to promise
or p r e d i c t that you will n o t change your opinion
after being cross-examined in c o u r t ?
A I can't answer that yes or no. It depends.
Q So, no matter what I might p r e s e n t to you, urn, to

the c o n t r a r y , or what f a c t s t h a t I may, uh,
present you, uh, do you s t i l l believe t h a t you
are open to revising t h e opinion t h a t you have

f i r s t , or during direct examination, furnished to
78
this j u r y ?
If I obtain additional research i n f o m a t i o n or
additional collateral data that 1 didn't have before,
then that's t r u e .
Okay. And I -- I t h i n k that's what I was -- that
I -- that's what I was t a l k i n g about. You t a l k e d

about your qualifications on, uh, direct
examination, and uh, you have indicated t h a t this
is the f i r s t time, uh, that you've ever presented
this suggestibility theory or the suggestibility
findings before a j u r y ; isn't t h a t t r u e ?

That is t r u e .
And isn't it a l s o true, Doctor, that, to your
knowledge, since you're a forensic psychologist
you may know t h i s , this is t h e f i r s t time ever in
Wisconsin t h a t t h i s kind of testimony's been

offered to a j u r y ?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I would o b j e c t . I don't
t h i n k that's necessarily accurate.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: If he knows, Judge. If he

doesn't know, I'll --
THE COURT: With that stipulation, go
ahead, you can answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't h o n e s t l y know.

(By Attorney Kratz) A11 right. The f a c t is,
though, Doctor, that when you t a l k e d a b o u t o t h e r
psychologists that do t h i s k i n d of work, and I --

and that's a quote t h a t I wrote down --
Uh, uh, if I can go back to t h e prior question. I --

I misstated.
Okay.
I -- I did testify, on one occasion, up i n Wausau,

and it was before a j u r y regarding this very matter.
I for -- I f o r g o t . I ' m sorry.
B a c k to my original question. When you t a l k e d
about o t h e r s doing this k i n d of work, do you know
of other psychologists, uh, in the state of

Wisconsin, who a r e going around o f f e r i n g
suggestibility testimony to j u r i e s ?
Going around and offering. I -- i don't know of

other psychologists who a r e conducting such
evaluations and providing information l i k e this to
the Court. Although, t h e y may e x i s t . I don't know.
All r i g h t . Well, you -- you've t o l d this j u r y
about how well, urn -- how well read you are, at
l e a s t how you keep up on this particular area,
uh, of, uh, forensic psychology. If t h a t was

something t h a t was commonly done, or even i n
Wisconsin if i t was something done, you'd l i k e l y
know about it, wouldn ' t you?

If was commonly done, that's t r u e .
Let's talk about the s p e c i f i c t e s t s that you did

perform. Uh, I interposed some objections a b o u t
t h e Wechsler, uh, t e s t , and how it was scored o r
how it w a s scaled. Do you remember those
objections?
I do.
The, uh, o r i g i n a l c h a r t that was placed up t h e r e
found Brendan to have a full scale Wechsler
Intelligence, uh, score of 81. And at least your
suggestion, uh, was t h a t t h a t fit within t h e
b o r d e r l i n e , urn, intelligence category.

My q u e s t i o n f o r you, Doctor, i s , urn,
under the Wechsler, uh, scale itself, under the
Wechsler, urn, analysis of that particular IQ
score, and I t h i n k you correct y o u r s e l f , that he,

i n f a c t , f i t s in a c a t e g o r y called low average;
isnTt that right?
A He's in t h e lower end of the low average, according
to Wechsler's norms. True.
All right. Now, I'm g o i n g to be s k i p p i n g p r e t t y
far ahead. But your eventual, urn, opinion is

going to be based, in large p a r t , on something
called the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale,
which, as I understand, includes a consideration

of an individual's IQ level. Is that true?
That's an in-- that's a mischaracterization of my
testimony. It -- you s a i d , in l a r g e part, it would
be based on Gudjonsson. And I said I -- I couldn't
assign a percentage. That it was relying on all the
d i f f e r e n t t e s t s , collateral data and interview.
The term "vulnerability to suggestibility." Does

t h a t depend upon IQ levels? O r at least that's
one of the factors t h a t you have to consider?

Yes.
To render that opinion, or to, urn, have a
particular subject f i t w i t h i n a category that is

consistent with vulnerability to suggestibility,
uh, is it a fair statement that, uh, that
hypothesis is furthered -- or that hypothesis is
supported if an individual has a borderline
intellectual capability or borderline IQ rather

t h a n low average? Or am I overstating that --
that, uh, distinction between Wechsler and your
o r i g i n a l testimony?
I t h i n k you're overstating it. Uh --

All right.
The -- the percentile is what's most important to
consider. That -- that standard across the Wechsler
norms and the DSM norms.

All right. In your, uh, performance o f the IQ
tests, you mentioned t h a t that was, um, important

to you. In other words, getting a, uh -- a
relatively accurate read of Brendan's current IQ

level was important?
True.
Is that what you s a i d ? I think you mentioned

that, because this was such an important case,
and, urn, because of the, uh, opinion that you
w a n t e d to give to this j u r y , uh, coming up with
a, urn -- a, uh -- an accurate value, or at least

a, uh -- a range, uh, was important for you.
That's fair, isn't it?
It's f a i r .
All right. The Wechsler, uh, Intelligence Scale,

even the abbreviated version that you give, how
many sub-tests are included i n that p a r t i c u l a r
test?
There are -- e i t h e r two can be administered or f o u r
c a n be administered. I administered two.
What does that mean, either two or four can be

administered? I assume one can be administered;
isn't that t r u e ?
That's not t r u e .
Why d i d you administer two instead of t h e f o u r

sub-tests of that?
A I wanted to obtain an overall T Q estimate and compare

it to the Kaufman Brief -- it's Brief Intelligence
Test, uh, to see if t h e r e was consistency. If t h e r e
was no consistency, uh, then I would have found the
need to go into more comprehensive intellectual
testing. As I indicated before, the interviewing and

the testing process determines w h a t tests I
administer to --
Q Was this anything that prevented you from
administering all four of the sub-tests for this
IQ test to Mr. Dassey?

A No.
Q You next t a l k e d about -- or at least in your
r e p o r t , you t a l k e d a b o u t the 16-PF, which I t h i n k
you described a s a -- called it a test, uh, that

evaluates, quote, unquote, normal
characteristics, at least under general

circumstances. Is that a f a i r characterization?
A It's a --
Q As o p p o s e d t o t h e MMPI, or something that looks
a t t h e more d e v i a n t or -- or problematic
individuals?
A I would agree with what you said, e x c e p t you s a i d ,
u n d e r normal circumstances. I mean, I -- 1 -- I
84
g e t -- I guess I'm not understanding your question.
I beg y o u r pardon.
Well, I -- we can get right to t h e -- the
conclusions of the 1 6 - P F . D i d you agree w i t h the
findings of your -- or of the r e s u l t s from t h e
16-PF t e s t ?
I found them to be consistent with the other test

r e s u l t s and the r e s t of t h e evaluation.
I assume you've been asked to bring your file and
the results w i t h you here to c o u r t ; is that
right?
Yes, I have.
If you'd be so k i n d , Doctor, a s to turn to your
r e s u l t s of t h e 16-PF test. And a s you're doing
t h a t , or as you're l o o k i n g for that, I'm s u r e you
can, urn, a l s o answer this. How was this test
scored? In o t h e r words, do you score it or do

you send it away to be scored by somebody else?
Uh, it I s computer scored from my off ice. Urn, a n d the
scores a r e t h e n interpreted into a report. Uh, bear
with me, p l e a s e .
I will.
of the r e s u l t s of the, uh, administration of the
examination to Brendan; is that r i g h t ?

A It's a computer-generated report of hypothesis
regarding individuals who have scales that h e
obtained on this particular questionnaire.
Q Okay. I f you'd be so kind as to turn to page,
three, then, t h e v e r y last category is called,

uh, cognition and communication. Do you see
that?
A Yes.
Q Within this report, it suggests that, although
n o t necessarily a measure of general

i n t e l l i g e n c e , i t does test one cognitive skill,
namely, the ability to manipulate verbal
concepts. I was curious as to what that meant.

Maybe you can describe t h a t f o r the jury? What
is the ability to manipulate v e r b a l concepts?

A Well, I can o n l y t e l l you what t h e test -- it's a
component of the test where there are analogies, uh,
such as, uh, a -- a pear is to an apple as a dog is
to, fill in the b l a n k . And maybe there'd be cat,
tree and whatever. Uh, that's a n example.

Uh, t h e r e are also, uh -- this is n o t on
the t e s t , b u t f o r sake of discussion, uh, please
f i l l in what would be the proper number in
86
sequence. If you have the numbers one, three and
five, a n d then they have six, seven, eight and
n i n e , and you're supposed to pick t h e --
Q All r i g h t .
A -- correct a n s w e r . I mean -- and, so, it -- it does
not y i e l d an IQ score, it just yields a general idea

of how they answered those q u e s t i o n s . It's n o t --
it's a personality t e s t . I t r s n o t a n TQ test.
Q But this report, if believed, suggests that

Brendan does function adequately in his ability
to manipulate verbal concepts. Isn't that what

it says?
A Well, it was -- says, i n its e n t i r e t y , a s well as
scale, does not necessarily measure g e n e r a l
intelligence. It does test one cognitive skill,

namely, the manip -- ability t o manip -- manipulate
verbal concepts. In t h i s area, appear -- h e appears
to f u n c t i o n adequately on this p a r t i c u l a r scale,
which is n o t an IQ test.
Q Okay. Do you agree with that statement?
A No.
Q Really?
A You a c t surprised.
Q Do you know what the term " c h e r r y p i c k i n g " means?

A I do.
87
And " c h e r r y p i c k i n g , " a t least in the concept of
professionals who testify, is t h e y p r e s e n t to

j u r i e s what m i g h t support t h e i r client's
position, b u t they keep from them, or they don't
r e p o r t , t h e t h i n g s that don't, o r t h a t , uh, m i g h t
undermine t h e i r o p i n i o n . That's a fair
characterization of t h a t term?
That is true.
By t h e way, anywhere i n your report or your
conclusions, d i d you include the 16-PF conclusion
that Brendan's ability to manipulate verbal
concepts, uh, was of an adequate functioning

level? Did you include that anywhere i n your
report?
f did n o t include t h a t computer-generated hypothesis
in my report. That's correct.
N e x t t e s t t h a t you had Brendan perform, or the
next one t h a t you t a l k e d about, was something

called t h e State T r a i t Anger Expression
Inventory. Youtre familiar, I know, w i t h that
particular test. And, in fact, in your report,

uh, dated November 15, 2006, you discuss how the
S t a t e Trait Anger Expression Inventory factored
into, or was considered by you, i n y o u r ultimate,
uh, a n a l y s i s and conclusion. That's t r u e ; isn't

it?
That's true.
In your written r e p o r t , that is, the report that
you have provided to Counsel and to Court, you

indicate t h e f o l l o w i n g : And I'll j u s t read t h i s
to you. You're n o t going to have to -- to look
at this. I'm sure you'll recognize this

sentence.
(As read) "The State Trait Anger
Expression I n v e n t o r y was f u r t h e r used to a s s e s s
for features of anger, passivity and anxiety."

You remember writing that?
Yes.
And, in fact, did you, uh, t a k e the r e s u l t s of
this particular instrument and a p p l y it to the
f e a t u r e s t h a t you suggest in your report? That
is, anger, passivity and a n x i e t y ?

I ' m sorry. Urn, I considered the r e s u l t s .
Now, the State T r a i t Anger Expression Inventory,
first of all, is that a test? Is that something
t h a t psychologists normally call a test or not?
No. We normally c a l l it an inventory.

All right. The d i f f e r e n c e between inventory and
t e s t s a r e , uh, and -- and correct me if I'm
wrong, but a test a r e something that have norms.
89
T h a t i s , i t ' s something that c a n be o b j e c t i v e l y
scored; isn't t h a t true?

A No. Tests m o r e are synonymous w i t h t e s t s of IQ,
t e s t s of achievement abilities, academic abilities.
The personality inventories are more to do with

assessing personality traits, emotional problems,
that s o r t of thing, uh, as compared to the IQ p a r t .
Q All right. Let me j u s t ask you, then, about the
S t a t e T r a i t Anger Expression Inventory. Urn, do
the results of that particular test have norms to
compare it to?
A Yes.
Q By the way, urn, the term "anxiety, " which you

express in your r e p o r t , was one characterasistic
(phonetic) -- characteristic that you used t h i s
instrument to examine. Is there a n y t h i n g in this
particular instrument that talks about anxiety a t
all?
A I might have been confused. As a State T r a i t --
there -- there are two tests by Charles Spielberger,
out of Florida. Uh, one primarily measures anxiety,

one measures anger.
Q Correct.
A And I may have confused t h e t w o and thought that
ang -- a n g e r expression inventory also included
90
anxiety.
But it doesn't, does it?

I -- from the way you're l o o k i n g at me, I don't think
it probably does.
Why, if -- if anxiety was something that you
thought was important to gauge w i t h this young
man, which I think your report indicates it is,

why didn't you give the State T r a i t Anger -- or,
excuse me, S t a t e Trait Anxiety Inventory i n s t e a d

of t h e Anger Inventory?
Because I gave the -- another test t h a t would measure
that on a v a r i e t y of a n x i e t y scales, and t h a t would

be t h e Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory,
slash, Adolescent version.
A perfect segue to my next questions, Doctor.
The MMPf-A, or the adolescent version, I t h i n k
you cautioned before that you can't really look
at a n y specific answer to any specific question,

that that might be somehow misleading, and I w a s
confused as to why t h a t would be. Can you
e x p l a i n that again?
Uh, by reading one particular response, one can t h e n

conclude t h a t t h a t -- conclude that that can be used
to draw definitive conclusions. And, uh, taking it
out -- out of context is very likely to mislead a

jury. And I'm sure you wouldn't want t h e j u r y to be
misled.
Q I'm sure I wouldn't either. And -- and that's
why I'm going to ask you some of these, uh --

some of these s p e c i f i c questions. Brendan, when
provided these questions, or when asked questions
on what I s c a l l e d the MMPI, uh, was asked series
of 478 true/false questions. He could either say

true or h e c o u l d say f a l s e on the answers; isn't
t h a t right?
A That's right.
Q Now, as you told t h i s jury, there -- after t h e

results are obtained, there's various s c a l e s . In
other words, how he answers questions on --

particular answers or, I guess, more
appropriately s t a t e d , uh, the combination of
certain answers, uh, can, urn, oftentimes, be, urn,

considered by trained professionals a n d some
tendencies might be able to be developed
r e g a r d i n g characteristics -- personality
characteristics. T h a t t s f a i r , isn't it?
A True.
Q Did you assume that Brendan, when asked these 4 7 8

questions, gave t r u t h f u l or accurate responses,
at l e a s t a s he believed them to be?
92
A It was my i n t e r p r e t -- my conclusion t h a t they were
accurate, because there are validity scales on the

M P I , and on most p e r s o n a l i t y i n v e n t o r i e s , t h a t show
whether a p e r s o n i s answering i n a s t r a i g h t forward
f a s h i o n , m i n i m i z i n g or exaggerating.
Q All right.
A And if those a r e scores -- the validity scores are so
abnormal to such a degree that it shows that person
was e x t r e m e l y ( i n a u d i b l e ) o r exaggerating, t h e n I --
I can't i n t e r p r e t t h e p r o -- I don't -- you can't
i n t e r p r e t the p r o f i l e because the -- the scores
e i t h e r over or underestimate emotional problems.
Q Now, i n t h e i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f t h e s e answers or
the profiles, urn, t h i s particular instrument
allows trained psychologists to l o o k at v a r i o u s
scales. You t a l k e d about one that, uh, is, urn --

or included shyness o r s o c i a l a n x i e t y , urn, o r
social a l i e n a t i o n , uh, i s t h a t -- i s t h a t
correct?
A Shyness w a s on t h e 16-PF, social alienation was on
the MMPI-A.
Q All right. Social -- and s o c i a l avoidance as
well?
A That's t r u e .
Q What -- what's that scale called, by the way,
93
when you test for those particular
characteristics? Which scale are we l o o k i n g at?
S o c i a l avoidance.
Have any other name to it on t h e MMPI? Often
r e f e r r e d to as the z e r o scale?
No. No, n o t at all. Uh, that's a d i f f e r e n t scale.
That's s o c i a l introversion. But there are other
supplementary scores. And, so, t h e -- social
avoidance is -- comes from the social introversion
scale. It's in parenthesis, SI-2. It's one
component of the Social Introversion C l i n i c a l Scale.
All r i g h t . And so this j u r y understands, there
were other things that you could have scored this
test for? There are o t h e r , um, personality
characteristics that you could have rendered
opinions about i n t h i s case, but that you chose

not to. Is that true?
Although there are hundreds of scales that could be
scored, I used the ones that a r e recommended by the
University of Minnesota and t h e o r i g i n a l test
constructors i n James Butcher and Doctors Archer and

Doctors Ben-Porath, among others.
For what? I mean, you must have been looking f o r
something.
No.
You -- you were l o o k i n g f o r suggestibility --
No, I was just --
-- issues, weren' t you?
I'm s o r r y for not letting you --
Go ahead.
Uh, I was not l o o k i n g -- I was l o o k i n g f o r
information designed to address those questions, and

there are a broad range of questions that a r e
computer scored that come back -- or, actually, are
done on my computer, electronically sent to Minnesota
and back, and I could c o u n t the number of scales.

There--There's, 1, 2, 3 , 4 , 5 , 6, 7 , 8, 9, 10, 11,
12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 2 3 , 24,
2 5 , 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 --
THE REPORTER: P l e a s e slow down.
THE COURT: Slow down. Just take your

time .
THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir.
These's lot of scales. That -- that's --
I can go on. And I'm j u s t -- so I would guess that
70 scales are -- are on what is called the -- from

the MMPI, urn, it's from t h e , uh, extended score
report for the MMPI-A.
And of those over 70 s c a l e s , how many did you
score f o r ?
A All of t h e m were scored.
Q Oh, good. Then I can ask you some questions

about the ones we haven't heard about, I assume?
A Sure.
Q Good. By the way, urn, you were asked to provide,

and I assume you brought w i t h you, t h e individual
questions that Brendan was asked, and you have

available for you individual answers that he
gave. Isn't that true?
A I have -- I have the individual answers he gave, but
I gave t h e , um, test questions, even though it's a

violation of my c o n t r a c t w i t h the University of
Minnesota, urn, I provided that to my -- or to my,
uh -- the attorney that r e t a i n e d -- r e t a i n e d me.
Q All right. B u t you've g o t the answers, then,
with you at l e a s t ?
A I -- I -- I -- yes, I do.
Q When was this test administered to Brendan?

A November 13, 2 0 0 6 .
Q Who was it administered by?
A Me.
Q Did you record t h e answers that Brendan gave when

you asked him specific questions?
A At this point, uh, Counsel, I don't recall whether
I -- whether I read the questions to him or if I had
96
him read t h e questions and answered them.
Q A11 r i g h t .
A If I -- I don't recall.
Q I'm g o i n g to ask you to refer to y o u r answer

sheet, and I q m going to a s k a couple of s p e c i f i c
questions and ask how Brendan answered them.

1'11 first ask you, question number 265,
Brendan was asked, (as read) "I t h i n k n e a r l y

anyone would tell a l i e to keep o u t of trouble."
Two sixty-five. T e l l t h e j u r y how Brendan
answered that question, please?

A Well, again, saying that it's going to be misleading,
and -- it -- it says, "True."
Q He s a i d , "True. " Anyone would lie to keep out of

trouble.
Question number 391, Brendan was asked

this question:
"When I am concerned, I tell that

p o r t i o n of the t r u t h which is not l i k e l y to h u r t
me. "
Tell us what Brendanrs answer was to
391, please?
A Well, as I s a i d on d i r e c t , this is a misuse of t h e
test, but he said --
Q Doctor --
97
He s a i d , "True."
Is there a problem? You don't understand my

question or you --
Well, I c a n ' t -- well, then, I can't answer it when
it mischaracterizes my testimony.
You can't answer true or f a l s e to what his answer

was?
Not when it's in a misleading --

Oh, I see. All right.
I'm sorry.
Well, let's t a l k a b o u t misleading t h e j u r y , then.

The MMPT could be scored f o r something called
anti-social personality traits. In other words,
to determine whether or n o t somebody l a c k s guilt
about c r i m i n a l exploits that they're involved in.
That's true, isn't it?

These are several such scales.
Did you score f o r any of those?
Yes.
Now, anti-social or --
Well --
Oh, I'm s o r r y . Because he's under 18, did you
want to say something about that or n o t ?
No. You -- you're r i g h t . You can't m a k e a diagnosis
of anti-social personality disorder f o r an individual

u n d e r t h e age of 18. B u t there is no scale,
specifically, l i s t e d as anti-social traits or
whatever you referred to. There are similar
statements, but n o t that one.

Q All right. S u f f i c e it to say, Doctor, uh,
Gordon, t h a t that scale and those r e s u l t s were
n o t included in your o f f i c i a l written report to

the Court?
A Which scale?
Q Any scale that dealt w i t h Mr. D a s s e y 7 s , urn,
personality characteristics takes that might show
a conduct disorder or anti-social personality
disorder?
A That was --
Q It was not i n c l u d e d ; isn't t h a t right?

A Because it wasn't, uh, indi -- so-indicated. Yes.
Q You interviewed Brendan, you said, on the 3rd a n d

10th of November?
A Yes.
Q Now, during your i n t e r v i e w w i t h Brendan, you

described him as being sad, polite and passive.
That's correct, isn't it?
A Yes.
Q Within your report t o the C o u r t , you noted t h a t
Brendan was nervous getting up in f r o n t of
99
people; is that right?
That's what he told me.

Do you feel t h a t that was significant to t h e
ultimate conclusion that you rendered in this
case as to vulnerability to suggestibility?
It is a -- it's a f a c t o r that's related to it, yes.
Oh. Lot of people get nervous standing up in

front of crowds or in f r o n t of people?
Socialphobia is the number one, uh, fear there is.
All right. And death is number t w o ; isn't that
right?
I -- I -- I -- I'm j u s t t o l d t h e number one, which --

People are more nervous about getting up i n front
of a crowd than they are about dying. That's t h e
point?
That's your point. I don't know t h a t that's number

two.
All right.
They might be s o c i a l l y phobic about standing up and
talking about death, for a l l I know.

Brendan also said that he was nervous when
meeting new people; isn't that r i g h t ?
That s right.
Lots of people get nervous meeting new people; is
that r i g h t ?
Some people do.
During your i n t e r v i e w , you a l s o mentioned,
however, t h a t Brendan exhibited n o symptoms of
depression, no appetite problems, or any of those
k i n d s of -- of issues. Is that fair?
That's what he t o l d me. Except -- and the o n l y thing
t h a t was indicative of sadness was t h e , uh -- the

look on his face and the poor eye c o n t a c t .
Poor eye con -- I'm s o r r y ?
A n d the poor e y e c o n t a c t .
A l l right. Now, contrary to what you saw, in
other words your observations of Brendan, the

MMPI suggests t h a t Brendan has the type of
personality that, uh, he might exhibit many, uh,
of such or of t h o s e k i n d s of complaints. Is t h a t
what the MMPI report says?
I'm s o r r y ?
Isn't that what the MMPI r e p o r t says?

The -- do you want me to read from what --
No. What I want you to do is -- does t h e MMPT
conclusion c o n t r a d i c t , or is it d i f f e r e n t than
what you personally observed of Brendan?
It doesn't contradict.
Is it d i f f e r e n t then?
No, uh, he -- he didn't exhibit -- he denied feeling

depressed and he denied having physical v e g e t a t i v e
signs of depression l i k e , sleep, appetite, headaches

stomachache. He's denied that. Urn, but it does say
h e seems g e n e r a l l y un -- unhappy and pessimistic
about l i f e . My observation of him was consistent
with that.
Were there any instances, whether it's in your

r e p o r t or not, Doctor, where t h e t e s t results
that you obtained from any of these instruments
were in contrast to what you personally observed
with Brendan?,
I'm sorry, Counsel, I --
I'll ask t h a t a g a i n .
I wasn't -- I was -- my mind went o f f in --

Were t h e r e any circumstances where the test
results that you obtained, or the t e s t r e s u l t ,
um, conclusions, were in contrast or were

different to what you personally observed from
Brendan?
O n the MMPI?
On anything. Any of the test r e s u l t s . I'm j u s t

wondering if that phenomenon ever occurred?
The only one, is there -- there -- he -- as 1 s a i d
before, he was elevated on a scale of hypochondriasis
and a l s o on other subscales measuring semantic

complaints. And that's -- he didn't report that to
me.
All r i g h t . When that happens, when the test
results differ from what you see with your own

eyes, urn, how do you reconcile that? Which of
the t w o do you, urn, adopt, if you will?
Research h a s shown t h a t testing -- a c t u a r i a l testing,

as well a s objective testing, is usually a b e t t e r --
there's u s u a l l y better reliability and validity of
t h a t than a person's conducting an interview.
All right. Doctor, uh, Gordon, when you
interviewed Brendan, you s a i d that he appeared

polite and was responsive to all of your
questions; is that right?
He answered all of my questions. There's a slow

reaction time. He was polite, yes.
He appear hostile at a11 to you?

No, sir.
Have you ever had a interview in your many y e a r s
of being either a clinical or forensic
psychologist where, uh, the s u b j e c t that you were

interviewing had a d i s l i k e for e i t h e r you,
personally, or members of your profession?
I'm sorry. Yes, I have.
All right.
A I t ' s n o t funny, b u t it -- it definitely has happened.
Q T e l l u s a b o u t when, uh -- when that happens,

because I'm s u r e lawyers have t h a t a s well, urn,
what do you observe when an individual has a, uh,

uh -- either a personal dislike or that of y o u r
profession?
A Well, they don't -- u s u a l l y don't dislike only my

profession. They dislike judges, uh, a t t o r n e y s ,
guards. And t h e y feel l i k e t h e y ' r e t h e v i c t i m of a
s y s t e m , and t h e y can be -- have histories of being
aggressive and, uh, they can, uh, specialize in
swearing and being vulgar. And, uh, I am -- I never

needed t o push t h e alarm b u t t o n yet, b u t , u h , I am --
I don't p u s h t h i n g s t o o hard when T'm trying to g e t
information because I value my personal s a f e t y .
Q Let's at l e a s t start or, uh, confine ourselves to

the -- the -- the -- the lower end of that scale,
that at l e a s t they're not p h y s i c a l l y , uh,
assaultive towards you. It's f a i r that it's more
difficult to obtain information from them? They
aren't as free to provide you w i t h answers or

w i t h information than you otherwise m i g h t l i k e ;
isn't t h a t t r u e ?
A If a guard -- person is guarded or hostile, it's much

more difficult to obtain information.
104
-
Q They're certainly not predisposed to c o o p e r a t e
with you; r i g h t ?
A No. No, s i r .
Q Well, wouldn't the same be expected if somebody

had a d i s l i k e , generally, f o r police o f f i c e r s ?
Wouldn't you expect them to be more guarded and
less free to provide i n c u l p a t o r y information?

A In general, t h a t would be true. In con -- if you
don't -- i f you're only considering that and n o t
other factors.
Q If -- let's assume, for t h e sake of argument,

t h a t this young man, Brendan Dassey, uh, had a
predisposition or a d i s l i k e of law enforcement o r
police o f f i c e r s , g e n e r a l l y . Wouldn't you expect
Brendan to be less forthcoming instead of more
forthcoming with information in the course of an
interview?
A If I only considered that f a c t o r alone, t h e n that's
probably t r u e .
Q You t a l k e d about the concept of suggestibility,

and 1 want this j u r y to understand my first
series of, uh, objections e a r l i e r in your direct
examination.
You t a l k e d about something -- about
f a l s e confessions, and then you t a l k e d a b o u t
105
suggestibility. Do you agree that t h o s e are two
distinct -- those are two separate concepts;
i s n ' t that right?
Yes.
In fact, somebody who is suggestible, that is,
somebody who is vulnerable to suggestibility, is
j u s t as l i k e l y to provide a true confession as
they would be to provide a f a l s e confession;

isn't that true?
I don't know if j u s t a s l i k e l y , but -- b u t I c a n tell

you that individuals who are s u g g e s t i b l e c e r t a i n l y --
increasingly suggestible -- c e r t a i n l y have a -- a
greater chance of providing a confession, period.
And it could either be true or false.

All right. So -- so this j u r y understands,
youfre not commenting on the, urn, truthfulness or
reliability or believability of a n admission or a

confession that might be provided by a
suggestible person? J u s t that they may be more
vulnerable to suggestibility?
I ' m not commenting on truthfulness and falseness.

But I am here to talk about reliability and
suggestibility, That I can comment on. That is
different than being truthful. R e l i a b l e is different
than being t r u t h f u l or f a l s e . I can't tell this

Judge, or this jury, or anyone in here whether --
That's not my job. I ' m n o t here to do that.
Q Doctor Gordon, do you remember, the last time we

had a chance to speak, me asking you the specific
question t h a t Brendan was j u s t as l i k e l y to
provide a t r u e confession as a false confession?
Remember me asking you t h a t ?

A Yes.
Q Remember --
A I mean --
Q -- what your answer was then?
A No, b u t you can tell me.
Q I'm asking you if you remember?

A No, I don't.
Q Your answer today, if I can -- if I could ask you

that specific qu stion again, is what?
A
Q
He -- T
Isn't Brendan just as l i k e l y to provide a t r u e
confession as a f a l s e confession?
A I don't know. Just -- he has -- he has a -- it's
like -- it's -- it is possible that if he provides a

confession, it could either be true or f a l s e .
That -- that is what I would say.
Q Now, the concept of suggestibility is n o t a -- a
discipline or an area that is j u s t unique to
107
police interrogations. It's something that we
see every day w i t h marketing, or advertising, or,
uh, f i e l d s like that. Isn't t h a t true?

That ' s true. B u t , uh, t h e r e a r e d i f f e r e n t -- the
research regarding suggestibility i n criminal matters
c a n n o t always be applicable to other kinds of
suggestibility. For example, suggestibility scales

for hypnotism and likelihood to be hypnotized a r e --
are n o t correlated at all.
I'm n o t a s k i n g what hypnotic suggestibility --

M y -- my question is w h e t h e r somebody is
suggestible? And this kind of goes to the t r u e

or f a l s e confession. The suggestibility doesn't
remove somebody's ability to reason? In other
words, to choose one, urn, answer or another?
T h a t t s t r u e , isn't it?
Suggestibility -- if they're more suggestible, it
reduces the likelihood of that.
I ' m sorry?
What's your question again, please? Maybe --

Suggestibility doesn't remove somebody's
decision-making ability? They still get to

choose whether they're going to adopt that
suggestion or not; isn't that right?
They still g e t to choose, but their choosing can be

a f f e c t e d by their psychological characteristics
and -- and the way they're b e i n g i n t e r r o g a t e d .

Q I'm not talking about interrogation. As an
example, if somebody tells you to buy a Chevy
over a Ford, they may be suggesting that you buy
a Chevy, but you still get to make that
decision --
A In that case, that's true.
Q If somebody tells you you s h o u l d order a p i z z a ,

you get to decide if you're g o i n g to order a
pizza; is t h a t right?
A That's true. T f my w i f e says, order a p i z z a , and I
don't want it, T -- there might be a little bit of
persuasion for me to get the p i z z a . You see?
Q I appreciate there's those other factors. By t h e

way, the area of suggestibility is not a
recognized s p e c i a l t y or even a sub-specialty i n
the area of psychology, whether f o r e n s i c or
otherwise; isn't that true?
A Sub-special -- it -- it -- fitness -- that's t r u e .
Fitness to stand trial, NGI, uh, those are n o t

sub-specialties. Forensic psychology is a
sub-specialty.
Q I a s k e d about suggestibility. Doesn't -- doesn't
f a l l under those categories of specialty or
109
sub-specialty?
A No.
Q Now, you told this j u r y t h a t you reviewed the
videotaped interview of Brendan on the 1 ~ t rand
some written narrative or a transcript, I
suppose, of an interview on t h e 27th of February;

is that right?
True.
And that some time later you g o t some school
records to, urn, review in case you were asked
about that here at t r i a l ? Or -- or -- let me ask

it a different way. To, um, consider and
determine whether or not it might affect your
opinion of Brendan?
That's t r u e .
By t h e way, how did watching that interview, and
this jury got to see that, uh, interview, they
got to see about -- j u s t under three hours of
what you've called the four-hour interview, b u t

how did watching the f i r s t three hours of that
interview impact or affect your, urn, report? You
understand my question? Or would you l i k e me to
be more specific?
1 could try to answer, b u t i f you could be more
specific, that might be h e l p f u l .

Q Whether you watched t h a t interview or n o t , w o u l d
you have been able to render these same

conclusions? That is, that Brendan was, uh,
vulnerable to suggestibility? Or d i d you need to
w a t c h that March 1 i n t e r r o g a t i o n to come to that
conclusion?
A It wasn't absolutely necessary, but it was helpful.

Q You're telling the jury that it wasn't absolutely
necessary to watch the interrogation that you
were being asked to render an o p i n i o n about? To
render an opinion about i t ?
A No.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: That wasn't the answer,
Judge. It was -- I believe t h e answer was n o t
necessary -- absolutely necessary, but helpful. So
if you --
THE COURT: That's a correct statement.
I'm sorry. That's a correct statement of the
answer. Why don't you just recast the question.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Sure.
Q (By Attorney Kratz) You're telling this jury

that it wasn't absolutely necessary to watch t h a t
interview to render this opinion about Brendan's
suggestibility?
ATTORNEY FRENGEN: Judge, again, that's n o t
111
the -- 1 believe the a n s w e r was, it's n o t absolutely
necessary, but h e l p f u l . If that's -- if h e wants to

rephrase it that way.
THE COURT: The question was fairly asked.
G o ahead. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: Could you read back the
question, please?
Q I can ask it again if you'd rather. Are you

telling this jury that it wasn't absolutely
necessary to watch t h e March 1 interview i n o r d e r
to render this opinion about Brendan's
suggestibility?
A Not absolutely necessary, no. It was helpful.
Q Let's talk about what might have been h e l p f u l or

omitted from your r e p o r t . T h e r e p o r t that you've
rendered, that talks about Brendan's
suggestibility, is devoid of a n y -- any examples

where Brendan actually resisted attempts by
officers to suggest answers; isn't that true?
A That's true.
Q In watching that video, Doctor Gordon, don't you

remember several i n s t a n c e s , in fact, over a dozen
instances, where a specific suggestion was
presented to Brendan, and Brendan a c t i v e l y
resisted? In other words, Brendan said, t h a t
112
didn't happen that way. Do you remember that?
A Uh, y e s .
Q That's not in your r e p o r t ?

A No.
Q Did you think that was important to include i n
your r e p o r t ?
A Well, obviously, I didn't, or I w o u l d h a v e included

it.
Q Go back to t h e very first question about

including things that help versus don't help your
ultimate opinion. Is this one of those
circumstances? In o t h e r words, when Brendan

actively says, no, it didn't happen that way,
that doesn't support y o u r o p i n i o n about
vulnerability to suggestion, does it?
A No.
Q You said that Brendanls school records weren't

provided to you u n t i l after you rendered this
opinion. Those s c h o o l records, u h , c o r r e c t m e i f
I ' m wrong, but they include behavioral records,
and, urn, progress notes, and what are called IEP

reports; isn't that right?
A That's right.
Q Those are n o t e s f r o m school teachers, and school
psychologists, and even, on occasion, a p a r e n t or
113
two, talking about some problems or some areas
that Brendan needed to work on i n a school
setting; is t h a t r i g h t ?
True.
One of t h e areas t h a t the school record
specifically addressed was Brendan's memory; is

t h a t true?
True.
Now, what was the s t a t e , at least from the
records that you received -- at l e a s t up t h r o u g h
the fall of 2005, what was the state of Brendan's
memory? And a r e you able, in reviewing those
school records, to differentiate between a
short-term memory and his long-term memory?
I know it was a l o n g e r question, and I

can b r e a k it up, if you need me to. I suspect
t h a t you'll be able to answer that.
I could answer that if I -- I reviewed t h e records.

I dog-eared the pages. I took a close l o o k , b u t --
but I didn't commit it to memory.
All right.
So I -- I could look again if you'd l i k e .

Brendan, at least from the s c h o o l records, didn't
have the g r e a t e s t memory in the world; is that --
is t h a t fair?
That's fair.
All right. And whether it was long-term or
short-term memory, at l e a s t for Brendan, and from
a school or a book learning, urn, standpoint,

Brendan had some challenges or deficits in that
area; is that right?

That's true.
Would you expect, by the way, somebody w i t h a,
urn -- n o t only a f o u r t h grade reading level, but
somebody with Brendan's memory d e f i c i t s , to be
able to, um, in great detail, uh, remember a --

let's say, f a c t s or details of a novel that he
read maybe f o u r years ago?
I can't r e a l l y comment on that because I don't --

it was a complicated novel, no. But that if -- I
donft know the bopk.
I
How about a novel written f o r adults rather than
for k i d s ?
Well, then, I doubt t h a t .
That j u s t wouldn't seem reasonable to you, would
it?
Uh, I don't know.

The school records don't mention anywhere about
suggestibility, do they? In other words, did you

see any notations in t h e records that Brendan
was, urn, e i t h e r highly suggestible o r i n f l u e n c e d
by e i t h e r classmates or other people?
I didn't read t h e word "suggestible" in the s c h o o l

records.
Did you read the word "influence" anywhere?
I don't r e c a l l .
That Brendan was easily influenced?

I don't recall that.
If a s c h o o l psychologist, Chris Schoenenberger-
Gross, who, urn, the testimony established, uh,
knew Brendan, administered tests d i r e c t l y to
Brendan, and d i d review a11 of those records, uh,

testified that there were no such entries, you
wouldn't quarrel with that conclusion, would you?
Uh, I de -- no, I depend on the -- the o p i n i o n s of
school psychologists.
And school psychologists and t e a c h e r s and t h o s e
t h a t meet w i t h Brendan on a more regular or daily

basis, at least from a historical standpoint, are
probably in a better position to gauge those
kinds of things than you, a f t e r meeting w i t h him

twice; is that right?
No, that's n o t right, because they didn't administer
the same t e s t s and review c o l l a t e r a l data that I d i d .
Urn, although i t ' s v e r y helpful t o have t h a t kind of

c o l l a t e r a l data from the teachers.
There (inaudible) --
So you don't -- I'm sorry you. You don't know --

-- ( i n a u d i b l e ) very important.
You don't know if t h o s e teachers administered IQ
tests, do you?
Teachers don't generally administer IQ t e s t s , b u t
they sometimes, uh --
I'm sorry. The school psychologists. Don't know
if s h e administered IQ t e s t s ? I misspoke.
I can l o o k . I d o n f t recall. I have to get them o u t .
It will take me awhile.

Well, maybe -- I'm going to go on to -- to
a n o t h e r question. It isn't -- do you know if the
Mishicot School District characterized o r
categorized Brendan as having any cognitive

disability?
I do know t h a t .
And do you know what that r e s u l t was?
It was.
That he did have a cognitive disability?

Well, that he had l e a r n i n g problems. And I f m --
and --
Why don't you look at his 2005 I E P r e p o r t ? There
will be some boxes checked t h e r e about w h e t h e r he

has a cognitive disability or n o t . That should
be easy to f i n d .
Two thousand f i v e . What date, please?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Are there, uh --

(By Attorney Kratz) Probably l a t e --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: A r e there exhibits t h a t
can actually be used and would --

(Attorney Kratz) While Mr. Fallon is l o o k i n g f o r
t h a t , I can go on to a another series of
questions- Did you ever talk to this s c h o o l
psychologist, Chris Schoenenberger-Gross?
No.
Why not?
1 felt no need to.
I'm s o r r y ?
I -- I -- I didn't f e e l it was necessary.
Did you ever talk to a n y of Brendan's teachers?

No. I reviewed t h e i r comments. T h e r e a r e some
standard scores, now that I f i n d them, if you would
l i k e me to go over them, C o u n s e l .
No. I'm asking f o r whether or not the school

believed Brendan to have a cognitive disability?
That was my question.
I can't find that. I j u s t can find t h e standard

scores of some --
You didn't talk to Chris -- I'm sorry to
interrupt you. You didn't talk to Chris
Schoenenberger-Gross, or any of h i s teachers,
because you didn't think you needed to. Is t h a t
y o u r answer?
I t h o u g h t this information was, uh, sufficient and

helpful to me.
All right. How about Brendan's parent or
parents? Did you talk to Brendan's mother?
No.
How come?
Uh, f o r -- I felt that 1 was able to form a
conclusion without, uh, relying on h e r i n p u t .
Without r e l y i n g on h e r input.
~ l right.
l You didn't think you needed, uh,
family opinions as to Brendanvs suggestibility,

or that -- whether or not he was easily
influenced, to render t h i s opinion?

No, I would place more value on opinions of
individuals who are teachers and psychologists,
because their opinions were made before this court

case and more l i k e l y to be objective.
All r i g h t . Let's talk about other statements

t h a t Brendan made. You said that you reviewed
the February 27 interview of officers. You

interviewed a May 1, uh, videotape t o officers.
Were you also made aware, several months before
February 2 7 , of statements Brendan made to other
f a m i l y members? Specifically, to one of h i s

c o u s i n s , Kayla Avery?
A I was made aware of t h o s e , b u t -- but I don't recall
it now. I'm s o r r y .
Q Were you aware that in late December, Brendan
Dassey t o l d one of his cousins that h e saw Teresa
p i n n e d u p i n Steven Avery's h o u s e ?
A I was aware of t h a t , y e s .
Q You were?
A Yes.
Q Did you consider that statement, a n d the fact

t h a t i t ' s three months before t h e , uh, March 1
statement? The one where suggestibility is

commented upon? The f a c t that that statement was
made three months before, you f i n d that
s i g n i f i c a n t o r d i d you include that in your
report?
A That was included in my report.
Q Did you find t h a t significant as to your ultimate

o p i n i o n a s t o B r e n d a n ' s suggestibility?
A It could. But sometimes individuals make statements
for sensational reasons, including even, uh, urn,
12 0
admitting t h a t t h e y stole the Lindbergh baby, and
there were hundreds of people that came forth
acknowledging t h a t , so --
Okay. Well, setting Mr. L i n d b e r g h aside, if you
can t a l k about this case --
That's good.
-- did you not think t h a t Brendan Dassey's

cousin, re -- telling a school counselor and
telling the police t h a t Brendan Dassey s a i d that
he saw Teresa tied up or pinned up in a house,
was relevant as to t h e March 1 statement, wherein

you commented as to his suggestibility? It's a
yes or no q u e s t i o n .
It -- i t ' s relevant, yes.

Did you believe t h a t Brendanrs statement to his
cousin that he saw body parts in a fire at the
same time was relevant as to your opinion as to
suggestibility?
It's relevant that he s a i d it, yes.
The f a c t t h a t Brendan Dassey s a i d , i n late
December, t h a t he heard Teresa screaming b e f o r e

he went into that house, you believe that's
relevant to y o u r opinion a s to suggestibility of
the March 1 statement?
It's relevant, but I canqt make an -- a determination

r e g a r d i n g the accuracy of those statements and t h e i r
reliability thereof, f o r all the questions you've

been a s k i n g me in t h i s s e r i e s .
Q Those are statements t h a t are several months --

or at least they're alleged to have been made
several months -- before this March 1 statement.
Do you understand that?

A I do.
Q Are you a l s o aware of, and did you include,

statements that Brendan Dassey made, admissions
that Brendan Dassey made, uh, a couple of months
a f t e r t h e March 1 statement?
A Yes.
Q You were aware of statements he made to his

mother about the confession? Uh, that i s , urn,
"Why d i d n ' t you t e l l me?" Brendan answered, "I
was scared." Do you remember, and did you review
that statement made from Brendan to h i s --
A Yeah.
Q -- mother?
A I 1 m sorry. I thought you were f i n i s h e d . Yes.
Q T h a t Brendanls mother t o l d h i m , "If you would

have t o l d me, Teresa would have s t i l l been
alive." And Brendan s a i d , "Yeah." Do you
remember reviewing that p a r t i c u l a r telephone
122
call?
I don't remember that telephone c a l l . I'm s o r r y .

Do you remember Brendan being asked b y his
mother, " D i d you do all of that s t u f f to her?"
And Brendan r e p l y i n g , "Some of it." Do you

remember r e v i e w i n g t h a t particular statement?
I believe so,
By the way, a r e any of those statements, made
months after the March 1 statement, do you
believe to be r e l e v a n t to your conclusion a s to
suggestibility, at least as it relates to the

March 1 statement?
It may -- it's relevant to consider. Whether it --
It's relevant to consider.

It would be relevant if Brendan Dassey apologized
to the victim's family, in his words, "for what I
did to her." Would that be a relevant statement
a s to suggestibility of t h e March 1 statement?
It would be something to consider.

Did you consider it?
Yes.
And despite all of those statements, d e s p i t e the
statements months before and months a f t e r ,
consistent with w h a t he told the police, you
s t i l l believe t h a t Brendan was vulnerable to

suggestibility; is t h a t true?
A Absolutely.
Q Doctor, my client -- or m y colleague --

Mr. Fallon's going to show you Exhibit 2 1 9 .
F i r s t of a l l , tell us what t h a t is and what the
date on the top of that report is?
A What t h a t is, it's evaluation report for Brendan

Dassey, determination of eligibility f o r s p e c i a l
education dated September 29, 2 0 0 5 .
Q Does t h a t particular form have a c h e c k box o r a

place where the s c h o o l can d e t e r m i n e whether or
not, in t h e i r opinion, Brendan h a s a cognitive
disability?
A It has a p l a c e for t h a t .
Q And is t h a t box checked on Brendan's form?

A No. What is checked is specific order of disability.
Q Some speech and l a n g u a g e issues --

A Specific learning disability. And the other one was
speech or language impairment. T h o s e are t h e t w o
t h a t were checked.
Q Now, Brendan's statement to his cousin about

seeing Teresa tied up or pinned up in the house,
s e e i n g body p a r t s in the fire, and h e a r i n g Teresa
screaming, and Brendan's statements, uh, months
afterwards to his mother, did t h o s e impact or did
124
you consider those statements when Brendan told
you he was scared he was going to be a r r e s t e d ?
I don't know, because I don't know in what o r d e r I

received t h a t information or reviewed it, at which
time I interviewed him. A f t e r t h e fact, urn, it could
be r e l a t e d .
Okay. Doctor Gordon, the concept of f a l s e

confessions, we -- we -- we heard about t h a t
as -- as s e t aside or as diffexent from
suggestibility. I want to ask you j u s t a c o u p l e

of questions about t h a t .
You're aware, in your, urn, w o r k in this

area, of s e v e r a l studies t h a t d e a l w i t h false
confessions; isn't t h a t t r u e ?
Yes.
A couple of the preeminent a u t h o r s in this area

are two individuals in California named, uh,
Mr. -- is it D r e z i n or Drizin, and Leo; is that
correct?
That ' s right.
And another is a person by the name of Brett

Trowbridge. You're familiar with t h e i r work?
Yes.
Is it fair --
Trowbridge, no. I -- I'm t h i n k i n g of that name.

There must be someone else. Or t h e same -- I printed
up, last n i g h t , regarding, uh, sexually violent
person and sex offender commitment, uh, so --

Q I -- I'll limit my inquiry, then, to what you a r e
familiar with. Would be the Drizin -- is it
Drizin or Drezin?
A T h a t I don't know.
Q Drizin and Leo. D-r-i-2-i-n. You understand?

A Yes.
Q You read that name at least? And in their study,
which is, uh, in f a c t , one of the preeminent
works in false confession, you'd agree with that,

wouldn't you?
A They've conducted many s t u d i e s , so I d o n ' t know which
one you're r e f e r r i n g to.
Q Mr. D r i z i n and Leo indicate, and do you agree

w i t h this statement, that most f a l s e
confessions -- now, we're g e t t i n g into the a r e a

of false confessions versus suggestibility -- are
the r e s u l t of, urn, tactics by police which are so
impermissible, most of which include physical

violence, l i k e beatings, is that what you f i n d ?
A That's not my reading. Well, we need to back up.
There a r e -- they are not the o n l y a u t h o r i t i e s i n t h e
field.
126
Secondly, urn, n o t o n l y t h e y -- a r e they
not the only authorities in t h e f i e l d , b u t they

do talk about extreme torture as a way to get
f a l s e confessions. T h e r e are chapters t h a t
they've done and studies on that. But they've

also published, extensively, l i k e I s a i d , even on
t h i n g s such as mild pressure, criticism, so --
How a b o u t we do this, i f you c a n ' t a n s w e r y e s o r
no, then you c a n let m e know, a l l r i g h t ? If --
if you can, Doctor, I'd appreciate it. A r e you
familiar w i t h Mr. Drizin and Leo's proposition

that most false confessions are the result of
such extreme p o l i c e conduct, impermissible
conduct, that can, and o f t e n does, i n c l u d e
physical violence or beatings of suspects?
Yes.
Familiar that their studies indicate that most
f a l s e confessions are t h e r e s u l t of very l o n g ,
sometimes, uh, interrogations t h a t last into the
days, rather than j u s t , uh, an h o u r , t w o or even
three h o u r s . You're familiar w i t h that?

True.
Now, in our case, that is, i n the March 1, urn,
videotape of Mr., urn, Dassey -- Mr. F a l l o n will
take care of that f o r you,
Thank you, sir.
Brtndan's f i r s t admissions, that is, his first
admissions of criminal involvement in this case,
don't happen at the three-hour or the four-hour

mark, but they happen, r e a l l y , within and r i g h t
around the one-hour mark. Is that a fair, uh,
recollection of --
Yes.
-- your review?
Yes.
So that, at least a s it relates to f a l s e
confessions, is extremely inconsistent with Mr.
D r i z i n and Leo's findings. Uh, t h a t is, it being
w i t h i n a n hour or two, r a t h e r t h a n six, eight
hours, twelve hours, days of confession. That's

f a i r , isn't it?
I can't answer that. Not the way it was phrased.
You told this j u r y that you were n o t familiar
with the w o r k s of, uh, B r e t t Trowbridge when he
deals with the three different types of false
confessions?
Oh. Urn --
If I asked you questions about that, might that
r e f r e s h your -- your -- your memory?
I t h i n k others have characterized it in those three

categories as well. Uh, so --
Q Let me ask you about that. The f i r s t , urn, area
of f a l s e confessions, uh, at l e a s t Mr. Trowbridge

calls a voluntary confession, these are the
people that come o f f the s t r e e t and confess to a
notorious murder that they didn't do.

The JonBenet Ramsey fellow, who comes
forward. That's t h e first category. You're
familiar w i t h t h a t first category; is that right?
A Yes.
Q The second is something Mr. Trowbridge calls

coexced compliant. That is, that an individual
confesses to a crime for a perceived gain.

Whether it's real or just perceived, that's why
they c o n f e s s to a crime t h a t may n o t be t r u e .
You agree with that?
A Coerced compliant can be for more than j u s t that
reason. But it -- it's when it's coerced and they

comply and give a false statement.
Q All right. But t h e y do it f o r a g a i n ? That is,

uh, something, um -- something that t h e y perceive
as of benefit to them? You'd agree with that
second component, wouldn't you?
A Yep. Many -- t h e r e a r e many different things that
they can b e n e f i t from.
129
And the t h i r d that Mr. Trowbridge, uh, t a l k s
about, and maybe Dr. Trowbridge, uh, is something

called, coerced internalized. That is, t h a t they
are convinced, or they, in f a c t , convince

themselves, t h a t t h e i r memory i s s o bad, uh, t h a t
e i t h e r d u e t o i n t o x i c a t i o n , mental illness, o r
something else, uh, that they actually did it.

They believe at t h e end of the interview t h a t
they did it?
Or brainwashing. You could t h i n k of P a t t y Hearst,
for example.
Okay. Now, w i t h that backdrop, or with t h a t

understanding of the three k i n d s -- or recognized
k i n d s of f a l s e confessions, are you familiar with
any category of f a l s e confession where an
individual confesses j u s t to get themselves into
trouble? A r e you familiar w i t h -- with t h a t as a

recognized area of f a l s e confession?
Unless it would be voluntary, uh -- I mean, some
people do things f o r notoriety, and knowing of the
consequences they -- they -- they do that. It might

be k i n d of h a r d to understand, but it's -- it's
not -- it -- it's done.
Doctor, I'm going to try to -- actually, I'm
going to s k i p over some things.

ATTORNEY KRATZ: And, Judge, with the
i n d u l g e n c e of the Court, if I promise to be done
by 12:15, then can I f i n i s h my -- my cross? Uh,
promise, Judge.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Go ahead.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you. Then I don't

have to come back after -- a f t e r the lunch hour.
(By Attorney Kratz) You said, uh, Dr. Gordon,
that the -- one of the areas t h a t you considered
in forming your opinion was t h e circumstances,
themselves, t h a t surrounded this interrogation;

is that right?
That's -- those are some of the f a c t o r s . Yes.
Now, you're not a n expert, and I t h i n k on a

previous occasion you a d m i t t e d you were not an
expert, in interrogation strategy or, uh, in
circumstances t h a t surround the interrogative
process; is that right?
Uh, t h a t is not my area of specialization, but I am
knowledgeable, or I have some knowledge of i t .
Well, that's good. Then, I can ask you, isn't it

true that most confessions, at least when a
confession i s obtained, uh, has s t a g e s to it? In
o t h e r words, uh, suspects typically, and almost
universally, s t a r t with a d e n i a l ? They start a s

denying their involvement in any crime? That's
true, isn't it?
True.
They move towards some version of events that
substantially minimize their involvement.
There's a minimization component, uh, at least as
they move towards confession?

That's common.
True? And third, then, there is details, or at
least some, urn, degree of d e t a i l , t h a t is,
ultimately, provided or given, a g a i n , assuming

the truthfulness, uh, of the confession. We're
not t a l k i n g about false confessions. We'~e
t a l k i n g about those t h a t actually happen. Is
that all true?

That's common.
You're aware, uh, Dr. Gordon, t h a t in the

interrogative process, it's important for law
enforcement officers to not o n l y consider the
spoken ward, t h a t is, the, urn, information or t h e
amount of information that's obtained, urn, but

they've got a responsibility to look at the
quality of the statement? That is, is it
something that can be or ought to be believed?
Would you agree with that statement?

A Yes.
Q Again, that process law enforcement officers

often look at whether or n o t there's physical
evidence that would corroborate what it is that

the suspect is telling them? That you
understand, don't you?
A Physical evidence displayed by the suspect during t h e

interview?
Q That there's physical evidence available during
the investigation that corroborates what the

suspect is saying? That that's a factor that
they consider when deciding t h e quality of what
it is t h a t the person says?
A True.
Q They a l s o consider information that t h e general

public doesn't know yet? That is, that's
purposely withheld from the general public. That
you agree with?
A Yes.
Q And, l a s t l y , and, perhaps, most importantly, law

enforcement officers consider what they don't
even know yet? In other words, when a suspect

tells them something, and t h a t suspect g i v e s
s u f f i c i e n t detail that they can l a t e r
corroborate, t h e f a c t that they -- that the cops
133
d i d n ' t even know i t yet, goes a long way towards
considering the q u a l i t y of what they're being

told. That's fair, isn't it?
Yeah, that's true.
Let me t a l k about this Gudjonsson Suggestibility
Scale. You are g o i n g to need to pull out the,
uh, Gudjonsson test, because I have some

questions for you, which was developed, you s a i d ,
by a g e n t l e m a n b y t h e name of Gudjonsson, who
s t a r t e d in I c e l a n d , moved t o England, and, i n
fact, d i d most of h i s , uh, s t u d y and most of his

work continuous to, as I u n d e r s t a n d , i n Great
B r i t a i n ; i s that r i g h t ?
London, precisely.
All right. Now the purpose of t h i s t e s t , a s I
understand, is, although you tell the suspect, in

this case you told Brendan, it was a memory test,
this isn't a memory t e s t at a l l , i s i t ?
No. Well, i t ' s not d e s i g n -- designed to be a memory
test. Although, you do ask them to respond w i t h --

by restating t h e -- the s t o r y . And, so, you can, to
some degree, assess t h e i r -- informally, t h e i r --

t h e i r memory. But it's n o t designed to be a memory
test. That's true.
You've got the -- t h e t e s t i n f r o n t of you, a s

I
well as the scoring sheet?

A Yes.
Q Thank you. So the jury understands the basic

premise of this test, as you read them a story,
you read Brendan a story, and you first asked if
they can recall, Lornething called immediate

recall, if t h e y can r e c a l l the f a c t s that was
read to them; is that correct?
A That ' s correct.
Q The test, i t s e l f , was developed, uh, you said, by

this person from Iceland, later going to England.
Urn, the t e s t that you provided to us, that is, to
the defense, was t h i s , t h e very story, the very
test that was administered to Brendan?

A Yes.
Q Was it on the 3rd or t h e 10th of November?

A I don't recall. I'm s o r r y .
Q That's fine. If you'd, uh, be so kind, uh,

Doctor, to read -- I'm not going to have you read
the whole s t o r y . But I want you to read the
first sentence of that s t o r y to t h e j u r y so they
can g e t a flavor for how, uh, Brendan was read
this particular story. Think you'd be able to do
that for us?
A Well, if that's a part of t h e c o u r t order f o r me to
135
do that, then I -- I understand it is?
THE COURT: It is.
(As read) "Anna Thompson of South Croydon was on
holiday in Spain when she was held up outside her
ho -- outside of h e r ho -- outside her hotel, and
robbed of her handbag, which contained 50 pounds" --
and I ' d say 50 d o l l a r s -- "worth of traveler's

checks, and her passport."
You say what? F i f t y dollars?
Yes.
What do you mean you say 50 dollars?

When I read it. That -- there is a Engl -- there's
American version of this, too, but it's n o t as well
normed of the s t o r y .
Well, that -- my first s e r i e s of questions, first

of a l l , was w h e t h e r o r n o t Brendan even
understood w h a t it meant to be on holiday? Do
you know if Brendan knew what being on holiday
meant?
I don't know, because that wasn't s t a t e d in t h e
memory portion t h a t he repeated back to me, urn,
immediately a f t e r I read him the story.

Now, the memory p o r t i o n that he repeated back to
you, are you reading from something?
Yes, I am.
What is that?
It's what I wrote down as -- to try to -- as my best
to write as f a s t as 1 could to write down what h e was
telling me at t h e time.
D i d you send that to -- to me? To the defense?
No.
Wasn't that asked f o r , Doctor?

Urn, yes, it was. And I apologize.
So we asked f o r your f i l e . You're reading from
that now, and that's something you didn't provide
the State.
I might have provide -- I might have provided it t o
Mr., uh, Frerngen, and he may n o t have provided it to
you. I don ' t know.

A11 r i g h t . I'll move on.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Uh, Judge, I would at
l e a s t note I'd l i k e to make a record at the end

of this, but I'll move on at this point.
(By Attorney Kratz) Doctor, t h e -- t h e issues of
"on holiday," uh, you said that, uh, you didntt

know whether o r not Brendan even understood t h a t .
When it indicates that this Anna Thompson woman
from South Croydon -- by the way, where is South
Croydon?
I don't know. It's in -- I assume it's in England.

Do you think Brendan knows where South Croydon
is?
If I don't know, I'm sure he doesn't.

Doesn't say Cincinnati or it doesn't say
something where somebody from the upper midwest
might a c t u a l l y understand t h i s ? Doesn't say
t h a t , does it?
It says --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Objection, as to whether
someone from the upper midwest might understand.
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: 1'11 -- 1'11 move on.
(By Attorney Kratz) When it says that "contained
50 pounds worth of traveler's checks," is it your

testimony in this case that, k i n d of on your own,
you j u s t changed the, uh -- the s t o r y ?
I changed t h a t one word.

Okay. Do you know how t h e changing of the --
that one word, uh, a f f e c t s the results or a f f e c t s
the norms that you're l a t e r going to ask t h i s
j u r y to believe?
I don't believe t h a t one word of, uh, seventy has any
appreciable --
How do you know that?
Uh, I s a i d I believe. There's a difference. I don't
know that.
And isn't the whole point of norms and
administration of these kind of tests, do it the

same way every time and with every suspect?
Yes.
A f t e r reading this s t o r y about this Anna Thompson
woman from England, um, Brendan is t h e n asked to
recall the story and to provide you w i t h , urn, the

details that he can remember; is that right?
That's right.
Now, is there a -- a scoring system for that? In

other words, is he given a particular score or is
that available, even, in this t e s t ?
I don't believe so.

The bottom of t h e f i r s t page where it says,
immediate recall, on t h e t e s t , it looks l i k e a
score. Memory recall, maximum of 40. Can you
tell us what that means?

I stand corrected. It -- it could be scored.
All r i g h t . So whether Brendan even knew what the
heck you were t a l k i n g about with this lady from
England, could have been scored by you; is that

right?
That -- that could have been scored, but there are no
norms f o r those.
All right. Could have been scored? You didn't
do it?
That's true.
After reading t h i s story, Brendan i s then
provided what are called l e a d i n g questions. That
is, questions n o t o n l y leading, but, also, have

false information within them. That's t r u e ,
isn't it?
That's t r u e .
In f a c t , the information is what's known as false
alternatives. 1'11 give a n example. It's n o t in
here, b u t it's a good example. Uh, if this Anna
Thompson woman wasn't wearing a hat, one of the
questions might be, Brendan, was she wearing a
red or a blue h a t ? That's what's called a f a l s e
alternative question that presupposes f a l s e
information. That's t r u e , isn't it?
True. True.
And, t h e n , i f Brendan says, she was wearing a red

hat -- he guesses, if he says she was wearing a
red h a t -- h e t d get a p o i n t or either a checkmark
on something called " y i e l d . " T h a t is that h e
would be yielding to that false suggestion; is
that right?
True.
I t m going to s k i p ahead. We're going to go back
to -- to some examples here. But halfway through
this test, you express disappointment. In o t h e r
words, you f o l d your arms, or something to that a
p o i n t , tell Brendan, I'm disappointed in your
answers. You can do b e t t e r this time. Uh, I ' m
going to ask you the same question.
Was s h e wearing a red or a blue h a t ?
And t h i s t i m e , i f Brendan, knowing he s a i d red
the first time, says she's wearing a blue hat,
you g i v e h i m a c h e c k m a r k f o r s h i f t i n g . T h a t he
s h i f t e d his answer. That's k i n d of accurate,

isn't it?
T h a t ' s accurate f o r one of -- one type of q u e s t i o n .
All r i g h t . Importantly, Doctor, tell this jury,
if Brendan gives you the right answer the second
time, the correct a n s w e r , if Brendan, the second

question, when you say, T'm disappointed, you
gave the wrong answer, and Brendan tells you, you
know what, Doctor, she wasn't w e a r i n g a hat. How
would you score that?
As shift.
So you're telling this jury that even when
Brendan corrects himself, even when he gives you
the right answer the second time, he g e t s marked

o f f , or something as to your scale then gets
added against him a s a s h i f t ?

Because it shows he's suggestible, y e s .
What happens, by t h e way, and how is this scored

if Brendan was provided w i t h a true answer? In
other words, if Brendan was asked, did t h e lady
have a hat or n o t ? And Brendan said, no, J
didn't have a hat, are t h e r e questions l i k e t h a t

in this test?
Repeat it again, please?
If Brendan was asked a question t h a t contained a

t r u e answer, something that was really p a r t of
this story, and asked a question l i k e , d i d the
woman have a h a t on or n o t ? How is that scored?

How is t h a t kind of question scored on --
T h a t is n o t -- I'm sorry. Was it -- you f i n i s h e d ?
Uh, it was -- 1I
it's n o t scored as a yield, b u t it's
scored as a s h i f t . If -- l e t me think of an example.
If a person has the question, uh, did
you -- was anyone walking outside t h e building?
And there someone was. And they said, yes, then

it wouldn't be scored as a -- a leading question.
Or -- or what -- or did you see anyone outside?
But, then, if they later on change that answer,

then, even though it was a correct, and not a
leading question to s t a r t with, it wouldn't be
scored as a s h i f t later on. You look puzzled.
I am puzzled, because if he answers it correctly,
and you fold your arms and you t e l l t h i s person
to change his answer, and he does, how does that
have a n y t h i n g to do with t h i s j u r y as to whether
or n o t he's suggestible?
It shows that he responds to pressure and changes h i s
answers, whether they be correct or not. It shows he
responds to -- to, uh, pressure.
He responds to his psychologist folding his arms

and saying, I 'rn disappointed in you, Brendan, you
s h o u l d change your answer. Wouldn't you expect
Brendan to change his answers?
I think I'd expect Brendan to because of all the

other f a c t o r s in t h i s case. Uh, if I -- if he
was -- if he had a advanced degree, had -- was a
lawyer, had c o n t a c t with the law, uh, he was
independent, he was outgoing, he was, uh, r i s k -
taking, he had a h i g h IQ, uh, he had no learn --

history of l e a r n i n g problems, then it would surprise
me.
B u t you didn't consider, d u r i n g t h i s
interrogation, what this j u r y has to consider,
that Brendan was able to resist suggestibility?

You used this test instead; isn't that true?
A I used this standardized test, which is --
Q Irrespective of w h e t h e r he actually, in r e a l
l i f e , was able to resist suggestibility? Is t h a t
what you're telling this j u r y ?
A 1 reviewed what he did in r e a l l i f e , and he was -- he
changed his responses in response to both leading and

pressure.
Q But in r e a l life he wasn't provided f a l s e

alternatives. He was asked, did you k i l l her or
didn't you? And he s a i d , yeah, I killed her.
That's different than this Gudjonsson test, isn't

it? Because this presupposes false alternatives.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I would o b j e c t to --
Q Isn't t h a t true, Doctor?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I o b j e c t to
the form of question. I don't think that was a

false alternative.
THE COURT: Uh, I'm going to overrule the
objection. This is cross-examination. It's wide.

I t t s broad. I t h i n k that's -- I think t h a t
question's, uh, within the realm of it. Go ahead.
Q (By Attorney Kratz) When provided with a true

answer, and Brendan given an opportunity to adopt
that answer, isn't that d i f f e r e n t than t h e
144
Gudjonsson t e s t ? That's my question, Doctor.
A It's d i f f e r e n t than p a r t of t h e Gudjonsson test
because o n l y a minority of the questions on the
Gudjonsson t e s t are f a l s e altern -- alternative

questions.
Q Only a what?
A A sm -- a small percentage of them.
Q A small -- 15 out of 20 are f a l s e alternative

questions.
A Thatfs not correct, Your Honor. Uh, Counsel.
Q Okay. How many -- how many out of 20 are f a l s e

alternatives?
A Urn, I can count. One, two, t h r e e , f o u r , f i v e . Five
out o f t w e n t y questions. One-fourth.
Q You said that this t e s t -- or at least one of the

things it tests f o r is memory; is t h a t right?
A Well, it assesses memory, but it's not really a

memory test. It's n o t -- that's n o t the purpose of
it.
Q Now, Doctor, you're aware of d i f f e r e n t k i n d s of

memory? Uh, that is, how individuals remember
things? How they process and remember
information?
A Sure.
Q You're aware of something that is called, uh,
145
semantic memory? Or what my t e a c h e r s u s e d to
call book learning? Uh, that they can remember
things that are read to them or things they see
in a classraom?
Okay.
And that's different than something called event
memory or autobiographical memory? Things that

people actually live through. You understand
t h a t people remember those things differently;
isn't that right?

I understand t h e y t r e -- they're different.
Now, r e a d i n g a story about some l a d y from
England, what kind of memory is involved t h e r e ?
Is it the book learning kind of memory? Or
something that Brendan actually lived through?

I t 7 s -- it's not experiential l e a r n -- uh, memory.
All right. You're familiar, Doctor, with studies

that show t h a t individuals, especially, uh, with
low average IQ's, do significantly b e t t e r w i t h
event memory? T h a t is, with things they've
actually lived through, rather than parroting
back or recalling t h i n g s that a r e read to them?

You're aware of that?
I'm not aware of that, b u t t h a t doesn't s u r p r i s e me.

I mean, if a person has learning problems, uh, it's
hard to understand more a b s t r a c t things than things
t h e y experience.
Well, importantly, police interrogations have

everything to do with event memory, things that
people have actually lived through, when asked
about, uh, whether or not they were involved in
something. Uh, t h e y can use that kind of memory;

isn't t h a t true?
True.
Event memory? And people with -- or at least
that a r e asked to call upon their event memory of
higher accuracy, less tendency to acquiesce,
which is called y i e l d , uh, and are more resistive
to suggestion, less chance of s h i f t i n g , you'd
agree with those propositions, wouldn't you?
That question went by t o o fast f o r me to agree or
disagree, Counsel.
I'm sorry?
You went -- You w e n t t o o fast for me.
People with low -- Brendan would be better at
event memory than with semantic or book learning
k i n d s of memory. Would you agree with that?

For that particular factor, yes.
Since I have two minutes 1 have to complete my
examination with this doctor, would you agree
that the norms, that is, uh, who the Gudjonsson
test is compared against, um, do n o t necessarily

reflect the population of -- of people l i k e
Brendan Dassey? In other words, uh, they aren't

compared against other people who are currently
being charged with homicide; is that true?
A They're n o t being -- yes.
Q And, so, whether these are some students in

England at Oxford, or something, who took this
p a r t i c u l a r t e s t , uh, they -- when told to change

their answers, they may be more reluctant to do
that, than somebody whose expert, whose doctor
t o l d him, Brendan, I want you to change your
answer, that's f a i r , isn't it?
A I don ' t know.
Q F i n a l l y , the more suggestible a person is, the

less detail they're able to provide? T h a t is,
the less, urn, recall they may have about a
particular event; is that true?
A Yes.
Q Conversely, then, t h e amount or t h e quality of

information, the quality of detail that Brendan
could provide, in fact, doesn't support the
proposition that this statement was the product
of suggestibility, does it?
148
Read that back, p l e a s e . Or repeat it.
Sure. The quality, that is, t h e detail, that
Brendan was able to provide, in f a c t , does n o t
s u p p o r t your conclusion. Is inconsistent w i t h

your conclusion as to suggestibility; isn't t h a t
true?
If t h a t is considered in isolation, that's -- that's

true. But there are o t h e r f a c t o r s , obviously,
involved.
I appreciate it very much. Thank you.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge.
THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
THE COURT: All right. We're going to
adjourn until 1:30. Urn, you may s t e p down. I'll
remind the jury, don't t a l k about this or anything
related to t h i s .
( J u r o r s out a t 12:15 p.m.)

ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, could I j u s t p u t
that one thing on the record t h a t I wanted to --
THE COURT: Oh, go ahead. All right.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: As we know, Dr., u h ,

Gordon referred to some of his notes that I had
specifically --
THE COURT: You can -- you can step
down.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- I had specifically
asked for and were n o t provided to me. I would
ask that during the break, perhaps Mr. Fremgen go
through with Dr. Gordon, his file to make sure
that was t h e o n l y thing t h a t wasn't provided to
me a s ordered and as requested.
I'll tell t h e Court, if that's t h e o n l y

thing I didn't get, I'm n o t a s k i n g f o r any
s a n c t i o n order. I'm s u r e it was an oversight.
B u t , uh, a t l e a s t Mr. Frerngen probably
should go t h r o u g h that file and make s u r e I got

the rest of that information.
THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen? Do that.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: All r i g h t .
THE COURT: All right? Uh, f i v e m i n u t e s
in chambers, please.
(Recess had at 12:18 p.m.)

(Reconvened at 1:30 p . m . J u r y in)
THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, you may proceed.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you, Judge.

REDIRECT -NATION
The, urn, p r o s e c u t o r asked you a couple of
questions I want to follow up on from b e f o r e .

Uh, Doctor, one question was asked of you w h e t h e r
you're familiar w i t h any o t h e r psychologists in

Wisconsin who have, uh, performed similar
evaluations and testified similarly. You
indicated, no?
That's correct.
Are you aware of a n y other jurisdictions w h e r e
that might have occurred?
Yes. And other s t a t e s .

In other states. Your report, would it be fair
to call it a summary of a11 of your observations,
evaluation and tests?
Yes.
Did you include in t h a t summary report -- and,
again, I believe it's a five-page report? Do you
recall that?
I --
And, actually, you know what I'll do? I'll mark
t h a t as an exhibit if the State has no objection.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: No, I think it's
appropriate, Judge.
(Exhibit 2 3 1 m a r k e d f o r identification)
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Is that Exhibit 230

then?
THE CLERK: Two thirty-one.
THE COURT: Two t h i r t y - o n e ?
( B y Attorney Fremgen) I'm g o i n g to show you what

has been m a r k e d E x h i b i t 231. Is this the r e p o r t
that was what you were t a l k i n g about -- o r , do

you believe this is the r e p o r t t h a t was discussed
on cross-examination?
Yes.
NOW, one question of you, Doctor, was whether or
not you included all of t h e , uh, questions and

answers from the 16-PF in that summary report;
correct?
Did it include a l l of t h e responses to all the
questions?
Correct.
No.
Why not?
It would n o t have helped w i t h t h e interpretation a n d ,
secondly, it would have been very unwieldy to include
a11 reports. I mean, all q u e s t i o n s and responses.

And it would have been a v i o l a t i o n of my ethics.
Well, what do you mean by "unwieldy?" Do you
mean t h a t it would have been a 50- or 60-page
report?
Oh, at least t h a t , if I would have included an
interpretation of -- of each question f o r each item

-
on a l l of the personality tests.
Q And, a g a i n , t h a t would -- you know, if I would go

f u r t h e r and ask you the same with the MMPI, if
you included all 4 7 8 questions and responses, how

would t h a t have affected or impacted on the --
t h e summary r e p o r t i n and of i t s e l f ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I'm g o i n g to
i n t e r p o s e an objection. I t h i n k my question was are
t h o s e items that were contrary or contradictory to

h i s opinion, why they weren't included. I didn't
ask this doctor w h e t h e r he included e v e r y answer to
every test.
THE COURT: That's m y recollection of the
question, Counsel.
Q (By A t t o r n e y Fremgen) Doctor, is it normal

procedure by a forensic, or, for that matter,
clinical, psychologist to i n c l u d e the actual
question and answers of t e s t s in a summary
report?
A Absolutely not.
Q Why not?
A Well, l i k e 1 -- I said, it's a -- I -- I -- when you
purchase these tests, you -- you agree t h a t you have
a certain level of training, and I document t h a t
for -- so you even can buy it. And, then, there's
153
contractually, you agree that you won't disseminate
this to anyone o t h e r than psychologists.
Uh, s e c o n d l y , by extracting individual
questions, it -- it -- it would not -- it would
be misleading. It would not provide for a solid
report.
How do you view a swnmary r e p o r t ?
I do my best to summarize a l l of the objective data
that's relevant to a given case so that the

conclusions, uh, in my report could be understood,
based on what precedes it in the report.
Do you believe t h a t Exhibit 231, essentially,
complies with your understanding of w h a t s h o u l d
be in a summary report?
Yes.
Upon cross-examination, an issue was brought up
about, urn, a n x i e t y ; correct?
Correct.
Uh, observations of anxiety and, um, whether
t h e r e was -- may have been -- I -- I believe it
was the 16-PF, or could have been the, uh -- I ' m
sorry, I believe it was the 16-PF, some
observation on a question that deals with
a n x i e t y ; correct?
Correct.
Q Did you, in your mental s t a t u s evaluation, ever
observe what you believed, based upon your, uh,
t r a i n i n g and experience a s a clinical, as well as
forensic psychologist, a n x i e t y when you spoke
w i t h Brendan Dassey?
A Yes.
Q So even if it's n o t i n a test, could you s t i l l

discern whether someone might be exhibiting
anxiety?
A Even if it's n o t in a test, uh, I could form some
conclusions regarding anxiety, uh, just from a
interview,
Q The, uh, MMPI-A that you testified about, uh, you

indicated you weren't sure, or can't recall, if
you actually a s k e d the questions and circled the
answers, or whether Brendan actually circled the

answers on the score sheet; correct?
A Correct.
Q That's the 478 questions you had t a l k e d about?

A True.
Q A r e t h e results interpreted by you?
A They're interpreted by me and hypothesis come from a
computer, i n i t i a l l y .
Q Let me ask you this, Doctor: When you -- after

you complete the test, where do you send it? Or
155
do you send it somewhere?
I, or one of m y assistants, hand enter t h e r e s p o n s e s
i n t o a computer, and it electronically is s e n t to,
uh, Minnesota, and a report is immediately generated,
including the scores, and s e n t back to my --

And you -- when you receive that, you receive,
basically, t h e -- t h e scores, and I believe it
was Exhibit, uh -- I'm showing you what's been
marked as Exhibit 229? And, a g a i n , this is what

the results would show from t h e MMP1-A?
Those are four scales contained on the MMPI-A.
So four of the 7 0 scales you had discussed on
cross-examination were on t h i s exhibit; correct?
Correct.
B u t what you receive is t h e number, where it says
score; is t h a t correct?
Correct.
And percentile, you receive that also from t h e
manufacturer who -- who t a l l i e s up t h e answers
and provides you w i t h a computer-generated score?
No, I -- I personally know from charts and books and

how to l o o k u p what particular T scores -- the, uh,
7 2 , for example, and I know how to convert that into
the percentile. So I do t h a t on my own.

So the score, itself, is generated by the
computer and you provided perc -- a percentile to
that?
True.
Are all 7 0 scales t h a t you testified about on
cross-examination pertinent, in y o u r o p i n i o n . as
to the issue of suggestibility?
No.
A r e the scales on Exhibit 2 2 9 that you've
included from the MMPI, in your opinion.

p e r t i n e n t in r e a c h i n g your conclusion as to
suggestibility?
A r e the -- what -- what's Exhibit 2 2 9 ?
I'm sorry. The one on the screen. The MMPI?
Three of f o u r are pertinent. I -- I l i s t e d t h e high
scores from t h e -- high -- h i g h scores from t h e
c l i n i c a l scales, and the basic clinical profile. and

the high scores from the additional scales beyond the
basic ten.
Why are t h e s e three p e r t i n e n t , where t h e other 7 0
are not p e r t i n e n t , i n your o p i n i o n , i n reaching

the conclusions about suggestibility?
My review of the other scales sh -- was -- shows that
those scores were either n o t consistent w i t h . or

consistent with, uh -- they werenvt related to
whether a person was suggestible or not. So I -- I
didn' t include them.
Is that i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t you incorporate f r o m
your research, uh -- or from t h e research from
G u d j onsson?
Gudjonsson and o t h e r s .
In totality, t h e -- a l l t h e tests and i n v e n t o r i e s
that you've used, are t h e s e considered objective
inventories and tests or subjective?
Objective.
Why is it that you want objective tests in
addition to your clinical judgment?
Objective tests are based on research from a variety
of i n s t i t u t i o n s w i t h thousands of subjects and result
in reliable scores t h a t are the same scores obtained

over and over. And by obtaining the same score over
and over on a given scale, then you can see if
they're valid. That is, if those scores are
connected to other variables, such as, uh,

depression, such as, whatever the case might be. And
that's how those scales are obtained, based on -- on t
uh, well-accepted research that's been taught to me
in 197 -- e a r l y 1 7 0 f s , and f o r t h a t as well, up until
now.
And getting back to the objective n a t u r e of these
tests, they're actually -- would you -- well, do
you actually make the test yourself or does
somebody else make them?

I don't make the t e s t s . That's -- someone else
take -- has made the t e s t .
And you've t e s t i f i e d previously that you've, uh,
performed thousands of evaluations before?

C l i n i c a l a s well as forensic?
True.
And you use objective t e s t s in those types of
evaluations as well?
I o n l y use objective tests, uh, since 1978. I --
I -- my review of t h e literature suggests t h a t , uh,
projective t e s t s are n o t useful.

So you use objective tests along with your own
clinical analysis and judgment?
Yes.
And, at times in the past, when you've done
evaluations, urn, using objective tests, have the

results always been consistent?
No.
Were your r e s u l t s in this case consistent?
All of the personality tests w e r e consistent, as were
the fQ tests, which were consistent with my

conclusion -- my conclusion.
What significance would you place on t h e
consistency of the objective t e s t s w i t h your
conclusion?
It's h i g h l y unusual that t h a t occurs and it provided
me with more competence in the interpretation and

conclusions that I reached regards -- r e g a r d i n g the
present case.
On cross-examination, the prosecutor asked you
about the March 1, 2006, video; correct?
Correct.
You indicated that was not a b s o l u t e l y necessary,
but was h e l p f u l , i n your determination of
suggestibility; correct?
True.
Why was it that y o u f e e l it was not absolutely

necessary in making that determination?
Because one can r e l y on interview and objective t e s t s
that I use to assess whether a person has

psychological characteristics that cause them to be
susceptible to suggestibility and giving confessions
when, uh, there's pressure applied.
What -- what was h e l p f u l then, about the video
once you made your i n i t i a l o p i n i o n about
suggestibility?
It confirmed that, in various cases, uh, yield and
s h i f t - t y p e of questions, uh, and different ways to
obtain a confession were -- were evident.
Well, and let me j u s t follow up on the y i e l d and
shift. urn, answer. The -- the prosecutor, in
cross-examination, mentioned that you left o u t of

your r e p o r t examples of times rend an resisted
suggestion; correct?
Correct.
And you said you did?
I did.
And -- and you -- I think you also confirmed t h a t
you noted times on the tape that he r e s i s t e d
suggestion; correct?
True.
Did you also note times or examples of Brendan,

i n i t i a l l y , resisted, but later changed, based
upon questioning?
True.
So both occurred on that video; correct?
Yes, sir.
I s this an example of that shift or y i e l d that
you were discussing in regards to t h e ~udjonsson
Suscept -- Suggestibility Scale?
The Gudjonsson s h i f t and suggestive s h i f t , in, excuse

me, response to y i e l d a r e similar to which -- that
which was found i n t h e , uh, in -- in -- in
interviewer interrogation, depending on what you
choose to c a l l it.
When you did review the school records, you
reviewed those a f t e r your, uh, initial opinion;
correct?
That's right.
Did you n o t e a n y t h i n g in the records t h a t
i n d i c a t e d that the school had ever tested Brendan
for his level of -- or whether t h e r e was a lack

of suggestibility?
I didn't note that that was done.
In your psych -- in your experience, is that
an -- uh, normal f o r schools to make

determinations of suggestibility or lack of
suggestibility?
No.
So it wasn't unusual not to see that i n the
records; correct?
Absolutely.
In t h e , uh, actual example, t h e Gudjonsson
Suggestibility, uh, test t h a t you performed on
Brendan, and I believe t h a t Mr. K r a t z pointed out
and had you read p o r t i o n s of, urn, you i n d i c a t e d

t h a t you had changed the word "pound" to
"dollar"; correct?
1 A Correct.
2 Q Essentially, changing the English monetary
3 system, den -- denoting money, to what -- the

4 American -- the Americanized monetary dollar;
5 correct?
6 A Correct.
Was that -- in reviewing the test, itself, d i d
that a f f e c t r e s u l t s of y i e l d or shift? Changing
t h a t one word?
No, because no questions were based on pound versus
dollar.
On cross-examination, you indicated that s h i f t
and y i e l d is n o t necessarily indicative of
w h e t h e r someone answers t r u e or false; is t h a t
correct?
That's correct.
On -- Mr. Kratz asked you a f e w follow-up

18 questions, and questioned you on the significance
19 of Brendan's s h i f t i n g to a t r u e a n s w e r based on
20 mild pressures; correct?
21 A Thatts correct.
What significance does that have, based -- in
regards to your opinion on, uh, susceptibility to

24 suggestion?
25 A None.
Q Doctor, actually, my question is, simply, he
s h i f t e d -- the question was a s k e d on cross
whether -- Mr. Kratz asked you, did Re s h i f t or

did he change -- excuse me, not s h i f t . Did he
change his answer to you, his psychologist?

A He changed it to me, psychologist, as respon --
response to what I said to him. True.
Q This is when you were you t h e r e meeting w i t h

Brendan; correct?
Correct.
And you observed the March I, 2006, video?
True.
At times, do you recall, if you do recall,
examples of when t h e officers referred to him as
"buddy? "
A Yes.
Q Touched his knee?

A Yes.
Q Essentially, befriending themselves w i t h Brendan?

A On some occasions.
Q And do you note -- did you note, again, similar

changes in answers to these officers who were
befriending him?
True.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: N o t h i n g e l s e , Judge.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
Q J u s t one -- one q u e s t i o n , Dr. Gordon.
Mr. Fremgen asked you about y i e l d and s h i f t , and
gave you an example of Brendan being questioned
by o f f i c e r s , urn, and t h e n changing his answer.
If that was an example of what, uh, Mr. Fremgen
c a l l e d yield and s h i f t . Do you remember that

question?
1: do.
Isn't t h a t a l s o an example of an interrogative
process where a suspect denies involvement in a

crime, is confronted with evidence a g a i n s t him,
and then admits to t h e crime? It's j u s t as
consistent w i t h that, i s n ' t it?

It's consistent with getting a confession.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: All right. That's all
I've g o t of Dr. Gordon. Thank you, very much,
again.
THE COURT: All right. You may s t e p down.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I would move
Exhibits, with the same conditions as we've

placed before, 226, 227, 229 and 230 and 231.
THE COURT: Any objection to t h a t ?
meet only new material, or new testimony, new
facts, p u t in by t h e d e f e n d a n t . Uh, essentially,
it's -- t h e C o u r t has a fair amount of discretion
in permitting or r e j e c t i n g rebuttal testimony.

Uh, with that s a i d , Mr. Kratz, are you prepared
to make a n offer of proof?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I c a n either do that
o r a l l y or I can do t h a t by question and a n s w e r ,
Judge. I t h i n k i f I do it orally, that would,
uh -- t h a t would s u f f i c e . But, uh, if you want a

more detailed version, we can do t h a t . How about
I try it orally first, and t h e n --

THE COURT: Please.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- then we'll see. We do

intend to call, uh, James Arrnentrout, c l i n i c a l , uh,
psychologist. Uh, t h a t CV was provided to

Mr. Fremgen this morning. It was sent over the
evening hours t o t h e D.Ats O f f i c e here, a n d I

provided it, as t h e Court, uh, wished.
Dr. Armentrout h a s b r o u g h t w i t h him, uh,
his o r i g i n a l CV, and I believe h e will be, urn,
recognized as a -- an e x p e r t , given his clinical
psychology background, as well as the number of

times h e ' s been accepted i n , uh, this and o t h e r
s t a t e s as an e x p e r t .
The new testimony, Judge, that's been
presented by Dr. Gordon, are on the issues of
suggestibility. Uh, a n d , specifically, uh,
whether or n o t , uh, psychologists, whether
forensic or clinical, uh, psychologists, urn,

r e n d e r opinions i n a n expert capacity in that
area. Uh, specifically, the issue of whether,
uh, suggestibility is a s p e c i a l t y or
sub-specialty, uh, is of issue in this case, and

I b e l i e v e D r . A r m e n t r o u t can testify about that.
More importantly, however,
D r . A r m e n t r o u t i s f a m i l i a r , because of t h e
discovery provided by Mr. Fremgen, w i t h the
tests, reports and opinions, uh, which have been

completed by D r . , uh, Gordon. Uh, Dr. A r m e n t r o u t
is p r e p a r e d t o comment a s to, uh, those reports,
a s t o each of the specific tests, how they were
administered, uh, a n d , again, perhaps, most
importantly, the opinions that, uh, may be drawn,

uh, therefrom.
Uk, D r . A r m e n t r o u t , specifically, and
f i n a l l y , uh, will give, urn, uh, an opinion, uh,
regarding the, uh, ultimate opinion rendered by,

uh, Dr., uh, Gordon, uh, and may, in fact,
d i s a g r e e that the test r e s u l t s , urn, at least from
his review of t h o s e same materials t h a t
Dr. Gordon has provided, uh, may l e a d to that

result.
I a n t i c i p a t e the rebuttal testimony, uh,

to be a half an hour or less. Uh, will, in a
very s t r i c t sense, be rebuttal. That is o n l y
what Dr. Gordon, uh, has tsstified about, and we
are prepared to proceed in t h a t fashion.
THE COURT: Before I -- I get to

M r . Frerngen, I'm l u s t reviewing my notes, haphazard
a s they are, b u t , uh, it was my recollection that
Dr. Gordon claimed that, uh, false confessions and

suggestibility was neither a specialty n o r a
sub-specialty. Did I miss that?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That it -- it remains,
uh -- it remains an issue, Judge. Uh, whether, uh,

this -- whether Dr. Gordon, urn, believes he, or any
other psychologist, is, urn, q u a l i f i e d or capable to
render an opinion as to suggestibility, uh, is very
much a t issue. Dr. Armentrout has an opinion about
that and I intend to ask him about that.
Uh, he will describe, specifically, what
suggestibility is, and is familiar not only with
t h e practice of, uh, clinical and forensic, uh,
psychology, urn, but a l s o , uh, t r i a l or courtroom,

uh, testimony. Uh, and t h a t the, uh, opinions,
urn, reached by Dr., uh, Gordon, uh, he, I
believe, w i l l opine, uh, is, uh, n o t h i n g more,
uh, t h a n a combination or culmination of
descriptive terms, and do not, in fact, uh, rise
to the level of, uh, an expert o p i n i o n that can,
in fact, be reached by a psychologist, whether

forensic or clinical.
THE COURT: That's a good answer, but it

wasn't to the question that I asked of you. Namely,
t h a t , uh, it was my understanding, based on
Dr. Gordon's testimony, t h a t he did -- was
unclaiming either sub-specialty or specialty status

f o r , uh, t h e suggestibility. I -- and I'm asking,
did I -- did I misunderstand?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: No. It's -- it's -- it's

as to whether or not an expert opinion t h a t is
within the f i e l d of forensic or clinical psychology,
uh, whether this is a recognized, uh, area of expert

opinion. He will say, no. And this j u r y , uh, who
has, uh, been led to believe that, uh, it is, uh, by
Dr., uh, Gordon, and I understand t h a t might be a
question of fact, b u t I guess that's the p o i n t ,

Judge, it's as to w h e t h e r or not, uh, this j u r y
should be, uh, left with the unchallenged, uh,

position that, uh, in fact, t h i s is somehow
sanctioned by t h e psychological community. The fact
of t h e matter is, it is not, and I s h o u l d be able

to, uh, go into that line of questioning.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Well, I -- I t h i n k that
l i n e of question should have been addressed to
Dr. Gordon, first, before Re b r i n g s in r e b u t t a l .
And I a1 -- also agree with t h e C o u r t . My

recollection is, specifically, the doctor said t h a t
the suggestibility is not a sub-specialty. In fact,
I think he s a i d forensic and c l i n i c a l are

sub-specialties of general psychology.
I don't understand how that's even an

issue. Urn, it seems, a l s o , to be somewhat more
d i r e c t e d towards the ad -- admissibility issue
that we've already addressed previously.

Urn, I -- at this p o i n t , f guess I don't
have any problems if Dr. Armentrout t e s t i f i e s

about t e s t s , his opinions about these tests. Uh,
b u t as to rebutting his -- the conclusions, and,
suppose, we'd have to hear more, I recall when I
offered my proof -- the offer of proof to the

Court, we offered, also, as much detail, as you
possibly could, into Dr. Gordon's, urn,
understanding of the issue of suggestibility a n d
the research in that field.
Dr. Armentrout ' s, urn, Curriculum Vitae

e s s e n t i a l l y indicates he has a Ph.D i n child
psychology. Many of his, uh -- in fact, almost

all but possibly three or four of his papers or
publications deal with, primarily, families,
parents and children. And his current, uh,
position w i t h t h e Department of Community -- or

Human Services in Calumet County, and vocational
rehabilitation, SSI -- or e x c u s e me -- social
security determination, urn, none of it shows any
s i g n i f i c a n t or any -- or, actually, none of it
shows any, uh, involvement in any sort of

f o r e n s i c t y p e of, uh, uh, expertise.
So, I -- I -- I q u e s t i o n whether he even
has the ability to -- to answer, directly, other
than to simply say whatever the State asks him to
say.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Uh, Dr. Gordon's

published, uh, papers are on Rorschach t e s t s and
abortion. That because -- and I think it points

out, Judge, because this is the first time, a t l e a s t
that we've seen, that this area, uh, is being
ventured into, I wouldn't expect there to be a l o t
of publications or a l o t of testimony on this issue.
I think it's recognized, at least in
this area, c e r t a i n l y before this C o u r t , and the
f i r s t time that, uh, myself or Mr. Fremgen have
addressed t h i s , that this area has been allowed

in trial testimony.
Uh, as f a r as Walstad goes, this d o c t o r ,
uh, I believe to be, uh, able to render relevant,

rebuttal testimony as to the. l a s t .
THE COURT: Mr. Frerngen, anything else?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, Judge.
THE COURT: Uh, the Court is going to
permit Dr. Armentrout to t e s t i f y as a rebuttal
witness. I'm going to limit the testimony to the

tests, t h e i n t e r p r e t a t i o n of those tests, and,
assuming t h a t a foundation is -- sufficient
foundation is l a i d , and, again, I haven't seen his
CV, nor have I seen a written p r o f f e r of what it is
he's going to say, b u t assuming a sufficient
foundation has been laid, he can give testimony as
to t h e opinions of Dr. Gordon.
Uh, I'm not interested in h e a r i n g

whether he believes, uh, suggestibility or the
GSS is a specialty or sub-specialty of -- of, uh,

psychology or forensic psychology. Now, with
t h a t said, uh --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: The GSS is a t e s t . I
assume he can t a l k about that?

THE COURT: Assuming he -- assuming he can
lay a foundation, yeah. The Gudjonsaon
Suggestibility Scales.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Yeah.

THE COURT: As long as there's a
foundation, he can t a l k about it, yeah. Because
that's -- that is one of the tests, apparently,
t h a t you wish h i m to comment on.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I do.

THE COURT: A l l right. Are you prepared
to -- what --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: If I could have 30
seconds to -- to -- to frame -- or at least to
talk to Dr. Armentrout about that --
THE COURT: That's f a i r . But, before you
do, uh, p r i o r -- one item -- minor item of
unfinished business, uh, M r . Fremgen, over the lunch
hour, was going to review his file to determine
whether or not there were any -- any other pieces of

information that you were entitled to under the
discovery order, under nine seventy-one
twenty-three, and if there weren't, uh, we would l e t
the matter pass. H a s he done that?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: He h a s . Uh, Mr. Frerngen

has explained why I d i d n r t get the, uh, information
t h a t Dr. Gordon, urn --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: It was my fault, Judge,
n o t Dr. Gordon.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Correct. Correct. If I
can finish.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Actually, it was
Ray's fault.
THE COURT: L e t -- let's -- l e t Mr. Kratz
f i n i s h , please.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: He explained why it was
that the discovery order was not complied w i t h . I
f i n d that to be, uh, a reasonable explanation a n d I
have no further, urn, uh, comment to make to the
Court. I'm satisfied with Mr. Frerngen's
representation.
THE COURT: All right. The matter --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: And I don't blame Ray,
l i k e Mr. Frerngen.
THE COURT: Matter is dropped, then. How

much time do you need, Mr. K r a t z ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: J u s t a minute, Judge.
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 (Recess had)
3 THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. K r a t z .
4 ATTORNEY KRATZ: D o n ' t we need the j u r y ?
5 THE COURT: Oh, that's t r u e . We c o u l d u s e
6 them.
7 (Reconvened at 2:10 p.m. J u r y in)
8 THE COURT: Be seated. Before we proceed,
9 uh, Mr. Fremgen, I take it you've rested at this

3.0 point?
11 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes.
12 THE COURT: On t h e record?
13 ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Okay. You may now proceed.
15 ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. The

16 State will call James Armentrout to the stand.
17 THE CLERK: Please r a i s e your r i g h t hand.
18 JAMES ARMENTROUT,
19 called as a witness herein, h a v i n g been first d u l y
22 your name and spell your last name f o r the record.
23 THE WITNESS: James Armentrout,

24 A-r-m-e-n-t-r-o-u-t.
177
BY ATTORNEY KRATZ:
Q T e l l us, please, how you're employed?
A I am a licensed psychologist.
Q And, Dr. Armentrout, uh, start, if you will,

explaining f o r the j u r y what educational
background you have?

Well, I received an Undergraduate Degree in
Mathematics and a Master's Degree in Psychology from
the University of Kansas i n t h e 1960's. And, urn, a

Doctorate in Clinical Psychology from the University
of Minnesota in 1968.
Do you e n j o y a n y areas of specialization? In
other words, at t h e current time, how is it that
you are involved in the practice of psychology?

A Urn, would you l i k e me to review employment and --
P Sure, why don't you do that?
A Now, from 1968 until 1972, I held f a c u l t y rank as
assistant professor in t h e Department of Neurology
and Psychiatry a t S t . Louis University. I n that
position, I had a j o i n t appointment as assistant

p r o f e s s o r in Psychology.
In 1972, urn, I moved to McMaster
U n i v e r s i t y i n Ontario i n a p o s i t i o n of a s s o c i a t e
professor in the Department of P s y c h i a t r y o f the

medical s c h o o l there.
-i
1 I n that position, I was chief

2 psychologist of one of the four clinical teaching
3 settings of t h e medical school, and, urn, had a
4 variety of activities.
5 In 1976, I came to Wisconsin in the
6 position of chief psychologist a t Winnebago
7 Mental Health Institute. I continued in that
8 position for seven years, and then l e f t the
9 administrative position but continued to w o r k as
10 a s t a f f psychologist a t Winnebago u n t i l 1998, a
11 t o t a l of 2 2 y e a r s .
12 Urn, I have always been either c e r t i f i e d
13 registered or licensed for the independent
14 practice of psychology since, I believe, 1969,
15 and I've been licensed in Wisconsin since e a r l y
16 in 1977, s h o r t l y a f t e r I came to this s t a t e .
17 Q You're c u r r e n t l y involved in the p r i v a t e p r a c t i c e
18 of psychology?
19 A Yes, I -- I have done t h a t on a part-time basis a l l
20 t h e way through, but since leaving state employment
21 in 1998, I have been doing that primarily.
22 Q You mentioned briefly, but could you talk more,
23 specifically, about what any p r o f e s s i o n a l

24 affiliations you may e n j o y ?
25 A Well, I have belonged to the American Psychological
179
Association since t h e 1960's. Uh, have been a member
of the, urn, National R e g i s t e r of Health Service
Providers in Psychology since that organization was
founded, which would have been sometime in the, I
believe, e a r l y , urn -- early 1970's. But those are
the only organizations I belong to.

Have you ever been an a u t h o r or co-author of any
papers or publications?
Well, I did that during the, urn, eight years in which

I h e l d university f a c u l t y appointment. It was an
expectation in that line of work that one would, urn,
produce scholarly, um, papers, and I -- I produced
20-some, a l l in referee journals, m, during that
period of time.
But once I came to Wisconsin, urn, I did

very little of t h a t work because it was not
something that was encouraged in state employment
at Winnebago Mental Health Institute. Simply is
not t h e mission of the state facilities as it had

been universities.
P r i o r to today, have you ever been asked t o
testify in a c o u r t proceeding? Specifically, in
a j u r y trial? And have you, in t h e s t a t e of

Wisconsin, been accepted, and recognized, as an
e x p e r t witness in t h e f i e l d of psychology?
Yes, very many times. Pardon me. I believe I began
testifying in court hearings, um, back in t h e early

1 9 7 0 t s , and have, urn, been involved in quite a
variety of different, urn -- d i f f e r e n t proceedings,

d i f f e r e n t types of proceedings. X have never f a i l e d
to be recognized as qualified to provide an expert

opinion in the f i e l d of psychology.
Dr. Armentrout, l e t me ask you about this case,
specifically. Uh, did you receive, uh, some time
within the last several weeks, a c a l l from, uh,
me, uh, a s k i n g to provide consultation services,
uh, regarding some information that we had been

provided?
Yes, I did.
And could you t e l l the j u r y , please, how you, uh,
responded, a n d how you've become involved in this
case?
Urn, I received the call from you a s k i n g if I would be
willing to review the information, um, in this case.
Urn, and I agreed that I would do so. That was
approximately two weeks ago. There was a very short
time period.
And a f t e r 1 agreed to do that, urn, I did
c a l l your office and indicated to one of t h e
staff that I hoped I had not agreed to testify,

because I did not know if I would have an
o p i n i o n , um, that would be needed at the -- at

the hearing, and, urn, I said -- but I said I
would be happy to t a l k .
You and I s p o k e on a Tuesday afternoon,
I believe, about a week -- perhaps two weeks ago

now, and at t h a t time, urn, as you pointed out,
our relationship was simply one of consultation,
to t a l k over the information that had been
submitted for t h i s hearing, and that it was an
open question whether we would proceed beyond
that.
Urn, I d i d receive some information from

you at that time, and I received, urn, copies of
what I believe were Dr. Gordon's f i l e s , when
those became available. That was approximately a
week or so ago.
Urn, we t h e n spoke a g a i n on t h i s p a s t
Sunday morning to review my opinion of that
i n f o r m a t i o n , and I t h i n k , as a result of that,
I'm here today.

Dr. Armentrout were you able, then, after
r e c e i v i n g , uh, Dr. Gordon's f i l e , that is, the

test results, uh, collateral, or a t least a very
small portion of t h e collateral information, and

most, specifically, Dr. Gordon's, uh, w r i t t e n
report, urn, able to review that information and
able to form some, uh, opinions about?

Uh, y e s , I did.
L e t me first, uh, ask about some of t h e testing
that Dr. Gordon, uh, performed, and I 'rn going to
be, s p e c i f i c a l l y , asking you about the
administration, and, uh, perhaps, at the
conclusion of, uh, these series of questions,
asking, uh, you to comment on whatever opinions
might be drawn therefrom.
Let's first start with, uh, something

that is called Wechsler, uh, Abbreviated
Intelligence Scale. F i r s t of all, in the course
of your, uh, experience as a licensed

psychologist in t h e state of Wisconsin, are you
familiar with this t e s t ?

Well, I am f a m i l i a r in that I have seen it used on
occasions. Urn, as you mentioned, it is a short form
of the S t a n d a r d Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale,

uh, which is most popularly now in its third edition,
although a f o u r t h edition h a s been published, b u t it

is n o t widely used quite yet.
But t h e third edition of that test i s
out. That consists of 11 sub-tests. Urn, the
abbreviated scale of intelligence that you
mentioned, urn, is composed of four sub-tests.

Two primarily verbal, t w o primarily nonverbal in
character. And, um, the results of t h a t test are
used in an attempt to predict what one m i g h t have
been, or what score one m i g h t have o b t a i n e d , had
t h e whole scale been, urn, administered.
So t h a t we do have t h e possibility of
predicting verbal, nonverbal and full scale IQ

scores based on only four, r a t h e r than t h e full
11, sub-tests .
Q B u t even of the f o u r sub-tests in the abbreviated
version that was available, uh, are you familiar
in the review of, uh, Dr. Gordon's file how many

sub-tests were a c t u a l l y administered in this
case?
A Yes. I think I p o i n t e d o u t to you t h a t two of the

f o u r sub-tests were administered. One verbal and one
nonverbal. At the same time, I was aware from other

information t h a t the question of Mr. Dassey's general
intelligence level is of importance in this matter,
because some o t h e r claims made about him, urn, are

said to vary w i t h levels of intelligence.
It seemed to me important to get as good
a measure of intelligence as one can under t h e
184
circumstances. Now, there may have been
circumstances u n d e r which no more than 10 or 1 5
minutes was available for the administration of
that t e s t , And, t h e r e f o r e , only half of it was

done.
But, urn, again, it's -- makes what was
already an abbreviated estimate an even more
sketchy estimate. If we attempt to, urn, estimate
the average height of ten people, we'll do b e t t e r

if we measure eight of them t h a n if we measure
one or two. The more information, the better
estimate.
And I think because, uh, the results

reported on that test, as well as the other one
done by Dr. Gordon, do differ somewhat from what
1 understood were results reported by
Mr. Dassey's school, in which he had been scoring
five to ten points lower on intelligence tests in

school, uh, I f e l t t h a t , urn, perhaps a better
measure of intelligence or more comprehensive
measure would have been h e l p f u l .
Q Dr. Gordonfs result of 81, uh, as a f u l l scale,

uh, intelligence score, are you familiar with
where that, uh, ranks, if you will, or at l e a s t
from the Wechsler scale, uh, how that's

categorized?
Within the manuals for the lechsler Intelligence
Scales, that score would be near the end of what's

labeled the low average range of intelligence. But
it is t r u e t h a t within the -- what we call DSM-4, the
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Edition 4, of the
American P s y c h i a t r i c Association, there is a
diagnosis of borderline intellectual functioning,
which can be used when IQ scores vary from

approximately 7 1 to 84.
So, urn, again, that score is r i g h t on

t h e borderline of sorts, between the -- the
borderline intelligence level and the low average

level.
J u s t so that the jury doesn't have any, uh,
confusion, you don' t, urn, quarrel or quibble
with, uh, Dr. Gordon's, urn, assignment or
assessment of that particular score as b e i n g , uh,

towards the low average range?
Well, I believe t h e score speaks f o r itself and

needs, urn, you know, little interpretation. Urn --
All right.
Again, I don't quibble, no.
By the way, before we -- we go any further, uh,
s i t t i n g up by your witness stand is E x h i b i t No.

232. Tell the jury what t h a t is, please?
A Urn, well, this is the copy of the Curriculum Vitae I
provided to you,
Q And what is a Curriculum Vitae, p l e a s e ?

A Urn, it is the academic equivalent of a resum&. It
should summarize a person's background, t h e i r

e d u c a t i o n a l training, their, urn, occupational, urn,
jobs, sorts of t h i n g s they've done. T h e r e is no
standard format.
Some people will include detailed
information a b o u t specific activities they have
done. Other people are, um, less t a l k a t i v e a b o u t
that, I guess. But it s h o u l d show where a person
has been working, the types of work t h e y have

done, and a n y notable accomplishments, whether
those be professional publications, awards or
things of that sort.
Q And this is, in fact, a true and accurate, at

least as far as, uh, t h e information f o r your
qualifications to provide an expert o p i n i o n ; is
that -- is t h a t correct?
A Well, it is a c c u r a t e with one exception. I -- I
noted that it does n o t , um, include reference to the

f a c t that, w i t h i n the past several years, I have
twice served as a, urn, temporary, part-time employee
187
a t the Kettle Moraine Correctional I n s t i t u t i o n .
Urn, I served t h e r e to h e l p them while
they were attempting to r e c r u i t s t a f f . There is
something of a manpower shortage within the

correctional system. So I spent t w o to three
days per week, um, over the last two-and-a-half
years, up until last October. And f believe
that, urn, does not appear on the -- on the

document.
The n e x t , uh, t e s t or, uh, instrument that
Dr. Gordon commented about was something called
the 16-PF. Let me f i r s t ask you if you are

familiar with that instrument?
I have some familiarity w i t h it. It is not a t e s t
that I have, urn, used r o u t i n e l y , nor, in fact, at all
within probably quite a number of years, Urn, the
intent of the test is to assess personality

dimensions of, urn, nonclinical, or so-called normal
personality.
I:
We do have t e s t s which assess elements
of mental illness, maladjustment, interpersonal
difficulties, mood s t a t e s , and things of t h a t

sort. B u t these are more c l i n i c a l t e s t s used f o r
people who are in crises or, urn, having
significant problems.
The 16-PF was i n t e n d e d to mention -- or
pardon me -- to measure dimensions relevant to
more normal personality.

Now, were you a l s o asked -- and were you provided
w i t h the, um, summary of t h e t e s t results for
each of these instruments?
I did say -- see a computer-generated, um, p r i n t o u t
of those r e s u l t s . Urn, y e s , I did.
And on page three of t h e summary of the 16-PF

report, uh, Dr. Armentrout, did you make specific
n o t e , uh, of Mr. Dassey's ability to manipulate
verbal concepts? In other words, uh, that

particular f i n d i n g in that r e p o r t ?
Yes, I did. But, urn, that statement, to me,
underlines a major shortcoming of virtually all of
the mail-order computerized test s c o r i n g services.
They simply are not specific enough f o r the

individual and the circumstances in which the test
was used.
A s I pointed out to you, if we go
t h r o u g h that r e p o r t , we can f i n d a g r e a t deal of
inconsistent and, at times, diametrically opposed
information saying that a person tends to do

this, b u t he tends t o do something else. He is
similar to same people who have this, and less
similar in other ways. I felt those statements
were so general that they o f f e r e d little
assistance in understanding what an individual

did on one particular day.
As an example, there is a statement,
despite having said the young gentleman involved

is a shy, withdrawn person who avoids crowds and
is uncomfortable around people, we c o u l d pull out
statements t h a t say, and I quote here from page
three, "He appears to be about average on warmth,
discretion and group o r i e n t a t i o n . He shows about

as much concern f o r o t h e r s as the average
person." And a l i t t l e b i t l a t e r , "He is about as
much a team player as his peers."

I find t h i s , um, pattern of o f f e r i n g one
s i d e , a n d then o f f e r i n g a diametrically opposed
side, leaves one u n a b l e to make any conclusion.

Urn, I have, f o r myself, a small test I
use that I do recommend people apply, and that
is, when you read descriptive statements about

people, I ask myself, so what? He is shy. He is
withdrawn. Well, so what? What does that tell
us?
I look f o r a statement t h a t says,
therefore, he d i d this. He d i d n o t do that. He
might do -- But to simply describe a person and
say, he t e n d s to be t h i s , or h e tends to be that,

is not very helpful in my opinion.
Doctor, I've handed you what's been received as
Exhibit No. 231. Have you seen t h a t document
before?
Y e s , I have. T h i s appears to be the report of
Dr. Gordon's evaluation. It's addressed to
Mr. Fremgen.
Specifically, um, 1 -- I should say, f i r s t , have
you reviewed, and have you had an ability to, um,
digest, f o r lack of a better term, t h e

conclusions and o p i n i o n s that Dr. Gordon draws
within that report?
Yes, I have.
Do you find anywhere, within Dr. Gordon's report,
mention of these, urn, conflicting, uh, results or
these conflicting summary statements that, uh, at
l e a s t as we're discussing at this moment, are

found in the 16-PF r e p o r t ?
T h e difficulty I have is that most of the information
offered is phrased as probabilistic vague descriptive

terms. This person tends to do this. Is prone to do
that. Sometimes does something else. And when I
ask, well, so what? What can I t h e n conclude or

p r e d i c t on the basis of t h o s e ? I find v e r y little.
Urn, I did not find in that report t h a t
any specific allegations or formulations or
connections were drawn between these descriptive

terms applied to M r . Dassey, and the behavior
patterns, the specific things which have been
alleged in this, urn, case.
All right. We'll get, uh, more specific as to,
uh -- as to t h o s e opinions. But l e t me move to

the next instrument. That b e i n g the State Trait,
uh -- j u s t g e t t h a t a second -- Anger Expression
Inventory. First of all, are you familiar with
this instrument?
It is nut something that I have ever used. Urn, T am
aware of it. It was devised by a psychologist named
C h a r l e s Spielberger, who I believe is at the
University of Florida, and is a name recognized by
most psychologists, although certainly not in a

clinical or forensic context. Urn, but I am aware of
that.
Urn, I am more familiar w i t h a similar
document called the Straight -- pardon me. The
State T r a i t Anxiety Inventory, in which the,

urn -- the items are directed more specifically
toward the experience of a n x i e t y , either as a

continuing t r a i t or as a short-term s t a t e . But,
uh, I'm not surprised there is an anger

inventory. I had not s e e n i t before t h i s m a t t e r .
Exhibit 231, uh, Dr. Gordon's, uh, summary
r e p o r t , a r e you f a m i l i a r t h a t within t h a t report
Dr. Gordon attributes the, urn, behavior or t h e ,
urn, characteristic of anxiety as something t h a t
can be judged or, uh, gleaned o u t of the Anger
Expression Inventory instrument?

I d i d see that. Urn, apparently, at some point, you
know, Dr. Gordon d i d reach the conclusion that, urn,
the young man has significant problems with anxiety.
I did not see that r e f l e c t e d i n any of the tests

you've mentioned so f a r , nor any of the others.
Specifically, I don't believe an Anger
Expression Inventory is intended to assess
anxiety, particularly since we have many more

ef f s c t i v e , more w i d e l y accepted tests, which also
would a s s e s s a n x i e t y , s u c h as the MMPI.

And let's go to that, uh, next. You understand
that Dr. Gordon administered something called t h e
MMPf-A? That being the adolescent version, uh,

of that instrument. First of a l l , are you aware
of that test instrument?
Yes, I'm q u i t e aware of t h e MMPI-A. D u r i n g my

training many years ago, I was literally steeped in
t h e MMPI. Urn, brainwashed, um, as a young
psychologist. But, urn, I'm quite aware of it. I

have been specific t r a i n i n g with, Robert
Archer, the gentleman that devised that o f f s h o o t of
the traditional MMPI. So I am q u i t e familiar w i t h
it.
Dr. Gordon t a l k e d about various, urn, scales or
conclusions being developed as the, uh,

instrument as examined -- 478 answers are
examined -- Can you tell t h e j u r y , generally, Row
that process w o r k s ?
A How was -- the instrument was originally developed?
Q How t h e instrument is scored or how these scales

have been developed, uh, based upon those answers
or test answer results?
A Well, t h e MMPI, itself, was developed back in the

1940's at the University of Minnesota Hospital,
specifically, by, urn, a psychiatrist and psychologist

who wanted to develop a paper and pencil
self-administered inventory, which might give a

mental health worker some direction as to the n a t u r e
of mental or emotional problems a person was, urn,

experiencing.
So, t h r o u g h a method, that I won't take
the time to describe, but they were a b l e to
i d e n t i f y short statements which seemed to
separate groups of people who did have serious

depression problems from t h o s e who did not.
People who had s e r i o u s health c o n c e r n s or serious
problems with impulsivity, suspiciousness,
mistrust, a n x i e t y , worry, j u s t a v a r i e t y of
things.
And out of that came t h e MMPI. A t that
time 566, now 567, items, each of which is

answered true or f a l s e and can be scored e i t h e r
by hand or by machine to produce what we call a

test profile, which simply l i n k s t o g e t h e r on a
graph the extreme -- the extreme nature of the
scores on those d i f f e r e n t sets of items.
Now, t h e original MMPI was intended to
be used in a clinical setting where a person goes

to t a l k to a doctor or therapist in a
confidential manner. There were questions

included in that, urn, t e s t which would not be
appropriate for friendly conversation. Questions
about religious b e l i e f s , or whether onefs stools

are black and tarry, or whether, urn, one has done
things too bad to talk about. There are a number
of items t h e r e that were f e l t inappropriate
outside of a psychiatric or psychological
setting.
Urn, there were tests devised, such as
the C a l i f o r n i a Psychological I n v e n t o r y t o drop

o u t t h o s e objectionable items. When t h e MMPI was
r e v i s e d , urn, t o t h e second e d i t i o n by, uh,
D r . Butcher, who, someone, a g a i n , I'm well
familiar w i t h , because he was on m y dissertation

committee and p r e l i m i n a r y exam committee, but f ,
again, urn, know q u i t e a bit about the way that
was done.
However, the MMPI, itself, i n c l u d e d
v i r t u a l l y no items p e r t a i n i n g t o areas of
a d j u s t m e n t v e r y relevant f o r teenagers, The
e x t e n t of conflicts w i t h i n o n e ' s f a m i l y , urn,
g e n e r a l well-being, urn, items pertaining to
specific difficulties within the school setting.
And so the MMPI-A, A being for adolescent, was

devised to t r y to add some assessment of those
o t h e r a r e a s of a d o l e s c e n t experience t o some of
t h e c l i n i c a l areas of t h e MMPI which had been
used forever.
Urn, during my t r a i n i n g in the 19601s,
urn, the MMPI was completed by anyone e n t e r i n g the

U n i v e r s i t y of Minnesota hospitals, age 12 or
over, even though we knew many of those items
w e r e n o t appropriate. I mean, an item such as,
my sex life is satisfactory, is n o t something I
would t y p i c a l l y ask a 12-year-old. But when they
completed that t e s t , they could e i t h e r answer

true or f a l s e or leave it b l a n k because we didn't
look at it.
B u t the MMPI-A was r e a l l y an attempt to
modify the methodology of the MMPf to a form t h a t

would be, urn, with more broadly applicable f o r
adolescents.
And are you aware that this was administered to
Brendan Dassey and was, t h e r e a f t e r , scored? That
is, that a profile was developed?

A Yes, I am.
Q How many, if I can use the word "primary," scales

are there in an MMPI adolescent version?
Well, it depends if one is talking about the v a l i d i t y
scales, the typical clinical scales, the c o n t e n t

scales. And, t h e n , of course, t h e scales,
themselves, have been broken down, t h r o u g h factor
analysis, i n t o s u b - s c a l e s , and there is a l s o usually
a s p l i t between what are called subtle scales as

opposed to obvious scales. So it goes on and on.
In the original MMPI, which had 566
items, there were more developed scales to be
scored from that test than there were items in
the test. In other words, that t e s t had been

used for virtually any purpose involving people
that you could t h i n k of. Somebody, somewhere,

had devised a scale to try to measure it.
SO, typically, a person only u s e s a p a r t
of it. The clinical scales are the most
frequently used.
Q All right. The l a s t t e s t , uh, Dr. A n n e n t r o u t ,
that I'd like t o speak w i t h you about, is
something called t h e Gudjonsson s u g g e s t i b i l i t y
Scale.
First of all, have you received
Dr. Gordon's materials regarding this p a r t i c u l a r
scale, uh, and have you, uh, a t least in review

of its administration in this case, drawn any
conclusions or opinions about its use?

A The information t h a t I r e c e i v e d i n t h e packet, urn,
t h a t I p i c k e d up from your o f f i c e , i n c l u d e d f o u r
pages labeled the GSS-1. I noted the first page had
some writing on it. Name, birth date, age, t h i n g s of
that sort. The f o l l o w i n g t h r e e pages were,
essentially, unmarked by any handwriting a t a l l .

Nothing recorded. Urn, nothing at all. The o n l y
w r i t i n g was on t h e cover page.
I w a s surprised, h a v i n g seen the r e p o r t
in this matter, that, urn, q u i t e a bit i s made of

Mr. Dasseyts performance o n that. And, yet, w e
had no information about it. The other tests had

been f i l l e d out. W e do have h a n d w r i t t e n
responses recorded r i g h t on the test instruments.
But we have n o t h i n g o n t h e GSS-1. And, so, I
r a i s e d the q u e s t i o n o f , it's impossible to really

know w h a t h a p p e n e d when t h a t t e s t was
administered. Urn, t h a t was a l l I knew.
Let me ask about the test i t s e l f , though. Since
that time, have you done some further examination
and have you, urn, formed a n opinion as to t h e

validity or applicability of t h i s particular
test, uh, especially as it p e r t a i n s to rendering
an opinion as to suggestibility?
Well, it -- it is my opinion t h a t the --

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I object t o t h e
o p i n i o n a t t h i s time. I don't t h i n k the appropriate
foundation h a s been laid. The one question t h a t was
asked p r i o r to this question by the prosecutor was,
are you familiar w i t h this test, and the answer

wasn't given, Just the discussed r e a d i n g and
l o o k i n g at the f r o n t page and r e a d i n g all the, uh,
copies. There hasn't been any foundation that he's
familiar with this test or any background on t h i s

test. Before he can offer an opinion on the test, I
think there s h o u l d be something along those lines.
THE COURT: Objection is sustained.
(By Attorney Kratz) Can you g i v e any f u r t h e r
background as to what you've learned about this
t e s t since you first received copies from our
office?
Certainly. Urn, I had n o t heard of t h i s instrument
prior to my first conversation w i t h you. I had never
heard of it. So, after learning of it, I did look on
the internet, urn, I did read some information there.
f d i d read, f o r example, t h a t Dr. Gudjonsson was born
in Iceland, received some of his training there, went

from there to the I n s t i t u t e of P s y c h i a t r y in London.
Apparently, he has been a practitioner
in England. I d o n t t know if he has ever done any

d i r e c t c l i n i c work in the United States. But I
did attempt to find information and found some on

the internet, specifically, about Dr. Gudjonsson
and t h e suggestibility s c a l e .
Now, my familiarity with this instrument

is based upon t h e four pages t h a t I received.
And I am familiar w i t h what was placed before me
and that is what I describe. But as f o r t h e
instrument, i t s e l f , I had never heard of it, so,
p r i o r to two -- two w e e k s ago, I would say.
The instrument, itself, and the pages t h a t you

did receive, are you able, a s a l i c e n s e d
psychologist, to comment on the, urn -- the
administration of the t e s t ? T h a t is, the, uh,
c u l t u r a l bias, if any, that is suggested on the
face, i t s e l f , of this instrument?

Yes, I believe I can.
And can you offer that o p i n i o n f o r us, please?
I n l o o k i n g a t the t e s t , f i r s t , I -- I had some
concerns about what seems t o be the way t h e t e s t was
administered. In Dr. Gordon's report, urn, as he

described t h i s test, urn, and that is on page five, he
mentioned that, urn, a f t e r 4 5 m i n u t e s of time h a s
elapsed, they are then requested to a n s w e r a s e r i e s
of l e a d i n g questions.
When I looked at the f i r s t page of this
document, when it says immediate r e c a l l start
time, it's a m i n u t e and 15 seconds after. But
the questioning s t a r t time is 3 5 minutes a f t e r .

My question was, d i d h e begin h i s questioning 3 5
rather than 45 m i n u t e s a f t e r ? If so, on what
basis? Why is he modifying t h e test? I had
questions at that point. When I --
Let me do t h i s form by question and answer,
Doctor, if I can, because I t h i n k that will,

um -- will help w i t h the, uh, uh, the
presentation. A r e you familiar with t h e term
"cross-validation?"
Yes, I am.
Can you describe what that is f o r the j u r y ,

please?
It, typically, means t a k i n g t h e results of one
experiment or one application and applying it to a
new sample or a new situation to find o u t w h e t h e r t h e
relationships or results obtained the f i r s t time will
also be obtained the second time. Urn, it is n o t at
a l l unusual f o r a t e s t to initially have very
hopeful, positive r e s u l t s , but on cross-validation,

meaning, application in another setting w i t h a
d i f f e r e n t group of people or even w i t h a similar
group of people, urn, it is not, urn, found to be as

accurate or h e l p f u l as it was initially.
It's necessary to repeatedly demonstrate
a relationship t h a t you claim has validity.
Reliability, meaning the -- t h e ability to f i n d
t h e same t h i n g each time, is a prerequisite for
validity, meaning that you're measuring what you

think you're measuring, because I have serious
questions whether this scale measures
suggestibility at all.
Q All right. Well1 get into the -- the reasons f o r
those questions. But, urn, are you familiar w i t h
whether this t e s t is meant to be what is called a

standardized t e s t ?
A As I said, I had no knowledge of it before two w e e k s
ago. Urn, I have no -- no knowledge of t h a t . f did
look at some of the c u r r e n t textbooks in forensic
psychology, such as one by Thomas Grisso, a n o t h e r

well-known psychologist, and I did f i n d that he
mentioned in passing in one small paragraph that this

t e s t exists, b u t he s a i d nothing more about it. So --
All right. Urn, I interrupted you when you were
t a l k i n g about some of the c u l t u r a l concerns, or
at least, uh, uh, c u l t u r a l flavor to this
particular, uh, instrument. Uh, could you
expound on that, please? And I apologize f o r
interrupting.
When I looked at t n l s paragraph, urn, I noticed its
similarity to a paragraph used in another widely used
psychological t e s t , called the Wechsler Memory Scale.

That, f o r example, is the test that t h e Social
S e c u r i t y Administration uses to evaluate, urn,
people's c l a i m s of serious memory defects, which
i n t e r f e r e w i t h employment. That is the t e s t that is

used.
It has one section called l o g i c a l
memory, in which a person is asked to remember a
paragraph. The paragraph begins, "Anna Thompson,
of South Boston, employed as a c l e a n i n g woman,
reported at t h e p o l i c e s t a t i o n she had been held
up on State S t r e e t . "
T h i s paragraph seems an offshoot of
that. Urn, and yet, I could not understand what
the meaning of this paragraph would be for an

adolescent who grew up in a relatively small town
in -- in Wisconsin. To say that somebody was on
holiday in Spain, um, and was advised to c o n t a c t
the B r i t i s h Embassy, seems to have little
meaning.
Now, once t h a t paragraph is read and a
period of time elapses, apparently the individual

is asked a series of questions. And it's
important to know whether the person remembers
the story or n o t .
But we do not know whether Mr. Dassey
remembered a n y t h i n g of that s t o r y 30 seconds

a f t e r it was read to him because there's no
recorded memory score on t h e sheet that I
received. He might n o t have even known what the

s t o r y was about. And to say that h e a r i n g a
paragraph read f o r a minute and 15 seconds about
a crime involving a woman from England on holiday
in Spain with her husband, that seems so f a r

a f i e l d from an individual who is alleged to have
participated in a t r u l y heinous crime, I don't
see the connection t h e r e at a l l , and I don't see
why anyone would attempt to try very hard to
remember all of t h a t story.

B u t as I mentioned to Mr. Kratz, if we
assume the individual recalls n o t h i n g of that

s t o r y , 35 minutes l a t e r he's given a choice, this
or that. Now, I could a s k someone, guess three
or f i v e . If they guess, t h r e e , and I tell them,
that's not very good, you can do better, try
again, they're going to guess five. I mean, most
people would n o t repeat answers t h e y have j u s t
been told are wrong.
And, so, we don't know why a person
would change answers when asked a set of

questions twice. Maybe they're trying to do well
and get t h e r i g h t answer, and maybe t h e y have not

the foggiest n o t i o n about what that s t o r y was
that was read f o r a m i n u t e and 15 seconds more
than a half hour ago.
So, I t h i n k to take a person's response
to those questions, urn, and a t t a c h a meaning to

it in terms of suggestibility, seem f a r a f i e l d to
me. I t seemed u n j u s t i f i e d .
THE COURT: Mr. K r a t z , we seem to be going

into s o r t of a narrative mode h e r e .
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I'm g o i n g --

THE COURT: Can we -- can we become a
q u e s t i o n and answer mode i n s t e a d ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Certainly can, Judge.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: In fact, I'm going to

wrap up this question with, uh -- or excuse me,
this examination w i t h this doctor.
(By Attorney Kratz) Urn, reviewing Dr. Gordon's
written report, considering the testing that he
d i d , the intelligence t e s t , t h e personality test,
the inventories and the Gudjonsson Suggestibility

Scale, together with the c o n s i d e r a t i o n of the
other collateral information listed in that
report, a r e you familiar with Dr. Gordon's stated

opinion that this man, Brendan Dassey, was
s i g n i f i c a n t l y v u l n e r a b l e to suggestibility?
Yes. I noted at the end of h i s report he mentioned
~ Q
he is v e r y s u s c e p t i b l e to suggestibility.
Based upon your review of the same materials, uh,
would you draw the same expert opinion?
A I would not draw that opinion. But even given that
statement, I would r e v e r t to the question of, so

what? What does it t e l l us? And my answer is, n o t
very much.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's a11 I have of

Dr. Armentrout, Judge. Thank you, v e r y much.
THE COURT: Cross?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Doctor, you indicated, uh, I believe it might
be -- is it Exhibit two thirty -- is it 2 3 1 or
232 before you? The -- your Curriculum Vitae?
Yes. Urn-hmm.
Which number is it?

Two t h i r t y - t w o .
Two thirty-two? Now, you're n o t affiliated
with -- you have no forensic affiliations;
correct? Listed on t h a t document?
You mean memberships in organizations? No, I do n o t .
Correct. Nothing l i k e t h e American Board of
Forensic Psychology?
No. I've been to many of t h e i r , urn, continuing
education t h i n g s , b u t I see no reason to seek t h e i r
certification.
No scholarly work since 1978; is t h a t correct?
That's right. My positions have n o t been s u c h where
that was p a r t of t h e job d u t i e s .
Despite your position since 1978, you haven't
provided any a r t i c l e s or publications for peer
review or otherwise non-peer review?

Well, again, whatever would be on the CV, that's it.
So if I -- if I ask you to read it, or -- or
would you believe me if I s a i d I don't see any
publications d a t e d after 1 9 7 8 ?
Oh, certainly.
Okay. So you'd agree with that last statement
that you haven't had any publications, a r t i c l e s ,
research, peer review or otherwise, since 1978?
Yes.
Now, you indicated you were b r o u g h t into t h i s
case a f t e r receiving t h e call from Mr. Kratz;
correct?
Yes.
And you're currently employed with Calumet County
Department of Human Services in some regard?
No, I 'rn not. Urn, I had a contract with them to
provide psychological evaluations. But, urn, we let
that contract lapse, I believe, in January of 2006.
I had done that for several y e a r s until then.

SO, a -- a g a i n , we'll look back at your
Curriculum V i t a e , Exhibit 232 before you. If you
could take a l o o k a t that?
Certainly.
So I ask you to l o o k at page two?
Urn- hmm .
Where it indicates, employment, consultant
psychologist Calumet County Department of Human
Services, Chilton, Wisconsin. You see that?
Yes, I do.
And it says 1997 t o b l a n k .
That's right. I probably f o r g o t to put t 0 6 on the
CV.
So j u s t an e r r o r ?
I'm s o r r y . What?
You made an error?

Yes, I made an error.
So up u n t i l 2006, you had a c o n s u l t i n g position
with Calumet C o u n t y ?
Yes, I did.
And at that same county Mr. Kratz works in;
correct?
Yes.
You primarily practice in O s h k o s h ?
No, I would say, by f a r , the g r e a t e r part of the work

I do now is in Brown County. Specifically, in Green
Bay. Although, in recent months, I ' v e been i n v o l v e d

i n Door County, Kewaunee County, Shawano C o u n t y ,
Oconto County, Washington County, uh, so not in a n y
one l o c a l e .
According to your Curriculum Vitae, your office
is in Oshkosh, though?
Yes. My o f f i c e has always been in Oshkosh for
20-some years.
And that's Winnebago County; right?
Yes, it is.
A r e you on any lists in regards to Winnebago
County to o f f e r independent medi -- mental health
examinations in c l i n i c a l or forensic psychology?
Yes, I will. I'm -- I'm n o t sure if they maintain,
urn, lists, b u t -- f o r example, w i t h i n t h e fact --
past year, I have seen juveniles from Winnebago
C o u n t y who were detained, um, in Appleton in secure
detention.
I have given o p i n i o n s t o the j u v e n i l e
courts. Urn, I have done a number of, urn,
f o r e n s i c evaluations in Winnebago County.
I believe it's been about -- little more
than a year ago, t h e r e was, urn, a homicide case
t h e r e , in which I provided an opinion of a man
who had, urn, inflicted fatal i n j u r i e s with a
baseball b a t .
Urn, I was involved in Winnebago County
in a case, I believe, perhaps, two years ago, of
a high school student who had, urn, s h o t a n o t h e r
man w i t h a shotgun.
Urn, I -- I've been involved in a number
of cases in Winnebago County.
Q What collateral information did you receive and
did you review in making your o p i n i o n today?
A Today?
Q Right.
A In t h i s case?
Q At a n y time, p r i o r to t o d a y , did you review any

collateral information provided to you by
Mr. Kratz or someone from his office?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what collateral information did you review?

A I received a copy of t h e , urn, motion to permit
testimony on suggestibility in this matter. I

received copies of the brief in support of that
motion, as well as a copy of the brief opposed to
211
that motion.
I received a letter from a gentleman
named Mr. Buckley. Urn, I had a chance to review,

urnr that l e t t e r .
And I received a copy of an a r t i c l e

entitled, Suggestibility and Confessions by a
Dr. Trowbridge.
And, then, again, the -- the records

II
that we have discussed e a r l i e r .
Q And the other records would be Dr. Gordon's

report; correct?
A Yes. I received copies of his test materials, his
report, his handwritten notes. Again, whatever had
been in his file and was to be provided, urn, that's

what I received.
Okay. And nothing else?
I don't recall receiving anything e l s e , no. I did,

on my own, l o o k up some information. For example, in
test -- um, psychological test -- textbooks, l o o k i n g
at, urn, the S t a t e T r a i t tests, and l o o k i n g for
information an the Gudjonsson and t h e 16-PF. Urn, I
d i d photocopy f o r myself some information out of
those textbooks.
Q You indicated you were also aware of school

records r e f l e c t i n g intelligence scores?
It was my unaerscanding that at some point, yes, t h a t
a -- a school counselor had provided some information
l i k e that.
So t h e intelligence score, in Dr. Gordon's, urn,

documents, were provided to you i n regards to the
Wechsler Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence, as
well as the Kaufman --
A Brief Intelligence Test, yes.
Q Correct.
A Urn-hmm.
Q Your testimony, if T understand it correctly, was

that t h e actual school records r e f l e c t a lower
intelligence score; correct?
Well, my source there was a letter by Mr. Buckley of
the John Reid, um, Company who had done a summary,
and that was provided to me along w i t h t h e other
records. In t h e r e , I noted his comment t h a t a school
counselor had either given testimony or a deposition
in which it was noted t h a t Mr. Dassey had been tested
at three-year intervals three times and had IQ scores
in the 7 0 ' s .
Q So Dr. Gordon's evaluation reflected, actually, a

higher IQ than the school did?
A
I;
A little higher, yes. Whether it's a s i g n i f i c a n t or
s t a b l e difference, I don't know.
Don't recall a s k i n g you t h a t . Did I ask you if
it was significantly higher? Or -- I t h i n k it

was just -- it was higher; correct?
Numerically it's higher, y e s .
Thank you. You indicated that the 16-PF -- you
had some concerns w i t h it because it's a
mail-order test?
It's n o t a mail-order test. It's a test which is
administered, apparently, by Dr. Gordon o r somebody

under h i s direction, but t h e r e s u l t s are then sent
o f f to a scoring service, which scores the answer
sheet and returns, urn, a computer-generated test
report.
On direct, when asked to comment about the 16-PF,

you commented t h a t one concern with these types
of tests, these mail-order tests, are simply not
s p e c i f i c enough?
Yes, thatts t r u e .
So when I referred to it a mail-order test a
minute ago and you corrected me, I was j u s t
r e p e a t i n g what you called it; correct?
Okay. I don't r e c a l l if I u s e d the term
"mail-order." If I d i d , I misspoke, because the

situation is as I j u s t explained -- explained it.
And is the 1 6 - P F a test that only Dr. Gordon has
access to?
Oh, certainly n o t . I think any qualified licensed or
other psychologist i n practice would have access to

it.
So o t h e r members of your profession; c o r r e c t ?
C e r t a i n l y , the publisher of the test would have
requirements f o r a person to qualify as a u s e r . But
I t h i n k , urn, you know, a g a i n , any practicing

psychologist would meet those standards.
Q And would you -- if you have an opinion, would
you agree w i t h me that there's probably l i k e l y a
f e w more forensic or c l i n i c a l psychologists, who
are qualified, probably have access to and use
that type of t e s t ?
A Oh, I'm s u r e other ones do.
You're -- you seem to be critical of the use of
the 16-PF by Dr. Gordon in formulating his
opinion. Yet, you would agree with me t h a t other

psychologists probably use t h o s e tests as w e l l ;
correct?
A Urn, y e s , that's correct.
Q So a l l those other psychologists using the 16-PF,
they j u s t must be wrong using that --

ATTORNEY KRATZ: Objection, argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe I said
that.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I'll withdraw it.

Q (By Attorney Fremgen) You indicated that you're
not familiar with t h e State Trait Anger
Expression Inventory?
A No, it's n o t something that I r o u t i n e l y e i t h e r use
myself or encounter in t h e c l i n i c a l work I do.
Q But you've offered an o p i n i o n c r i t i c a l of
Dr. Gordon's opinion based upon his use of that

t e s t ; correct?
A No, I tried not to o f f e r any opinion c r i t i c a l of

Dr. Gordon. I'm n o t acquainted w i t h him and I mean
no disrespect or d i s c o u r t e s y to him. It is his
opinion that my opinion may disagree w i t h . But I
would certainly, urn, tender f u l l respect and courtesy
to Dr. Gordon. I mean no disrespect.
Q If I implied that you were criticizing

Dr. Gordon, I apologize. I t h i n k I was referring
to the report. And so to make it clear, I'll
j u s t refer to it as Exhibit 231. f think it --
Correct? Is it 231?
A
Q
That's fine.
Okay.
I
The, uh, MMPI, you a c t u a l l y have some
professional or scholarly, urn, experience with
the MMPI?
216
A I have considerable experience w i t h the MMPI,
although more in my f i r s t 2 0 y e a r s t h a n , perhaps, in
the last f i v e or ten. I do n o t use it, urn,
frequently anymore.
Q D o e s t h e M P 4 P I have some u t i l i t y i n t h e f i e l d o f
f o r e n s i c o r clinical psychology?
A Oh, I believe it does. T h e r e are a number of books
that have been written on t h e f o r e n s i c a p p l i c a t i o n s
of the MMPI.
That, t o o , is a -- a test that is provided -- I
won't -- I won't call it a mail-order test, but
something provided by a m a n u f a c t u r e r , in w h i c h
you have t o s e n d back the, uh, uh, answer sheet
and receive, then, t h e i r interpretation of t h e

r e s u l t s ; correct?
No, that's n o t e n t i r e l y correct. The test c a n be

scored by a series of templates by an individual.
Urn, l a y i n g the template over the answer sheet,
counting up the numerical scores and t h e various, urn,

scales of t h a t t e s t .
That can be done. It can be done as a
c l e r i c a l t a s k by a trained secretary, just as the
profile of those scores can be drawn.

If a person feels competent o r q u a l i f i e d
o r c o m f o r t a b l e i n t e r p r e t i n g the t e s t , the person
may go ahead and do that, based upon experience,
training, reference books, whatever.
There are interpretation services
available on a mail basis. In o t h e r words, one
can either fax or send o f f the answer sheet to
the service of Dr. B u t c h e r and Dr. Williams, or,
f o r example, to another one by a psychologist
named Alex Caldwell, who has a very widely
respected MMPI interpretation program.

But there must be at l e a s t e i g h t or t e n
of those available by mail order. And, um,

again, one can &ail o f f the, urn, answer sheet and
receive back a p r i n t e d r e p o r t .
Q So it's n o t unusual to use one of those, as you
p o i n t e d out, well-respected interpretation, uh,
individuals or psychologists who can i n t e r p r e t

the r e s u l t s ?
A Again, s o m e p e o p l e d o i t , s o m e p e o p l e d o n l t . It
depends upon one's perceived need f o r that. If
people want to do it, they do it. It's not a

standard practice one way or t h e other.
Q A r e you familiar with the, uh, studies done by
parson by the name of Ayling, A-y-1-i-n-g, 1984,

pertaining to false confessions?
A NO, I'm not.
218
Any studies by an individual by t h e name Ofshe,
0-f-s-h-e, from 1989, in regards to
suggestibility and f a l s e confessions?
No, I'm not.

Have you reviewed a n y of the Gudjonsson, uh,
5 ( Q
reports dating b a c k from ' 8 3 t h r o u g h 2001
pertaining to this issue of suggestibility?
A I h a v e n o t m a d e a n y e f f o r t t o r e v i e w t h a t literature,
no.
Q Any of t h e Loftus studies from 1979, 1990? Into
the 9 0 1 s ?
A No.
Q The Kasson or McNall test -- uh, s t u d i e s in 1991?
Are you familiar w i t h those?

No, I 'rn n o t .
So you're not familiar with a n y of these tests,
o r , excuse me, studies that deal with t h e issue

of suggestibility or false confessions?
That's what I said. I'm not. Yes.
Well, you have performed some internet research

into the topic?
I did b r i e f l y , y e s . Urn-hmm.
And I think you s a i d you ran across t h e term

"suggestibility" in one of t h o s e articles or some
25 study you -- you referenced on t h e internet?
219
Yes, I d i d find some references to it, as well as to
Dr. Gudjonsson.
D i d you have a handbook to i n t e r p r e t how to
administer the Gudjonsson Suggestibility Scale?
No, I did not. I've never administered it.

You've never administered it. And y o u don't know
how to administer the test? Would t h a t be f a i r
to state?
Urn, y e s , t h a t would be fair.
Did you actually interview B r e n d a n Dassey?

No, I've had no contact with M r . Dassey at a l l .
Would you agree that, as a psychologist, w h e t h e r
it be clinical or f o r e n s i c , in order to draw a

conclusion about an individual, it's usually best
to meet the individual?
I'm -- well, I'm not sure of the meaning of "best."
In this case, I was not asked to provide an opinion

about Mr. Dassey, specifically, and I was not offered
any, urn, access to him. So it simply was not t h e way

in which I became involved.
I w i l l agree that i n most of the work I
do, 1 would provide an evaluation, and m y opinion
might stand i n contrast to someone else's
opinion, and those t w o opinions can t h e n be

compared and evaluated by someone. But in this
case, urn, I was not asked to do that. I was
asked to offer opinions regarding the information
submitted to t h e C o u r t .
Would you agree that then it would be a normal or
a standard practice in your f i e l d to evaluate an

individual before o f f e r i n g a -- an opinion about
that person?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Objection. A s k e d and
answered, Your Honor.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Actually, I don't
believe I asked t h a t exact question.
THE COURT: Overruled. Y o u may answer.
THE WITNESS: No, it would not be a

standard of p r a c t i c e for me to do something t h a t
I had not been, specifically, asked to do. That
is n o t a standard of practice.
That -- that wasnft the question I asked you. I
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t you weren't asked to do that and

I'll grant you that. But is it a standard
practice in your f i e l d , if the person is
offering -- if the psychologist is o f f e r i n g an --
an o p i n i o n as to a particular person, t h a t they
would actually provide an individual or personal

interview or evaluation of t h a t ?
A On that, I would agree with you. It is expected that
if I were to o f f e r an o p i n i o n , specifically, about
Mr. Dassey, it would be unethical for me to do that
without a t least attempting to personally evaluate or
examine h i m in developing that opinion.
And I would be justified in n o t meeting

with him only if he r e f u s e d to participate.
B u t , urn, that i s not the case here. I

have n o t been asked t o provide any s p e c i f i c
opinion o r e v a l u a t i o n of Mr. Dassey. The focus
of my attention has been on Dr. Gordon's report

a n d t h e information t h a t D r . Gordon submitted t o
the Court.
You -- you've agreed o r i n d i c a t e d t h a t you have

no familiarity with the research in regards to
suggestibility o t h e r t h a n having r a n across the
term during t h e i n t e r -- internet research p r i o r

to testifying today?
A Yes, I believe I've said t h a t .
Q And despite that, your c o n c l u s i o n is Dr. Gordon's
conciusions are incorrect?

A Uh, my opinion responding that information is
different than the conclusion he reached, it is n o t
for me to say whether he i s correct o r i n c o r r e c t .
Urn, b u t the conclusions I would reach on the basis of
t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n might be d i f f e r e n t t h a n the
conclusion that he reached. I'm n o t saying he's
wrong.
Q And, hypothetically, if he has reviewed the
standard or typical research in t h e area of

suggestibility, he would have more information to
base h i s opinion on than you?
A I don't agree with t h a t at a l l .
Q You don't agree that you have no familiarity with

any of the research in t h e area of suggestibility
at --
ATTORNEY KRAT Z : Object ion, Judge, t h a t
wasn't the question.
THE COURT: No, he's a s k i n g t h e
question. Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
question, sir?
Q Sure. I'll do the best I can.

A Uh-huh.
Q You have no familiarity in the research of

suggestibility. Yet, you've been able to provide
an o p i n i o n as to what Dr. Gordon's conclusions --
or your opinion of Dr. Gordon's conclusions;
correct?
A Urn, yes, I think that's true. But the focus of my
opinion was on the basis -- and the -- t h e problems
223
I
that I recognized in the Gudjonsson methodology,
would n o t j u s t i f y me i n reaching t h e conclusion he

reached.
The Gudjonsson methodology or the Gudjonsson

example that was provided to you?
Well --
Test example. I'm sorry.
The scale, as I see it, which was supposed to
originate in his file, f o r t h e reasons that I pointed
o u t , 1 would not have, urn, confidence, myself, in
concluding that that methodology relates to

suggestibility.
Just because someone titles a t e s t a

suggestibility test, does not make it a
suggestibility test.
Oh, I agree with you e n t i r e l y .

It might well be a memory test, or a concentration
test, or something else. So, I'm j u s t saying I would
not have reached the conclusion he reached.
I -- I understand you e n t i r e l y , Doctor. And --
and will you agree with me, then, w i t h this, if
you haven't reviewed Gudjonsson, f o r i n s t a n c e ,
and you don't know t h e research and t h e

methodology behind the test, how can you say that
the methodology and the test isn't correct?

We're n o t t a l k i n g about correctness. I -- I will
stand on the comments I made earlier about the
methodology used. About n o t assessing the memory and
not understanding why a person's changing answers to

a r e s p o n s e a f t e r b e i n g told he's wrong, why t h a t
r e l a t e s t o suggestibility. It -- it simply is n o t a
connection I, myself, would make, p e r s o n a l l y o r
professionally.
Q And, g r a n t e d , coming from a person that has no
familiarity w i t h t h e research into that area;
correct?
A Yes, that's true.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you. Nothing
else, Judge.
THE COURT: Any r e d i r e c t ?
ATTORNEY KFWTZ: 1 don't t h i n k so, Judge.
Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. You may step
down, Doctor.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: A s k the C o u r t receive his
THE COURT: Oh. Okay. Any o b j e c t i o n to
the CV?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Same c o n d i t i o n s as
before, Judge.
THE COURT: Sure.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN : No.
THE COURT: Two t h i r t y - t w o , then, is
o f f e r e d and r e c e i v e d .
ATTORNEY K R A T Z : Did the Court anticipate
a n a f t e r n o o n break? If it did --
THE COURT: R i g h t now.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: If it d i d , uh, we'd ask
f o r an opportunity to meet w i t h the Court b r i e f l y

in chambers. And this, u h , is a good time f o r an
a f t e r n o o n break. Thank you,
THE COURT: All r i g h t . We'll, uh --
we'll recess until 2 0 to 4 .
(Recess had a t 3:20 p.m.)

(Reconvened at 3:46 p.m. J u r y in)
THE COURT: Mr. Kratz, do you have any
f u r t h e r witnesses this a f t e r n o o n ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: We have no f u r t h e r

rebuttal, Judge.
THE COURT: No f u r t h e r witnesses at all?
ATTORNEY m T Z : No.
THE COURT: All right. So, the S t a t e is
t h e n resting?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: The State is, uh, resting

its rebuttal, yes, J u d g e .
I
I
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Uh, any surrebuttal

being o f f e r e d by the defense?
ATTORNEY FREMGEM: No, Judge.
THE COURT: A l l right. Uh, that concludes,
then, the presentation of te,srtiaony in the case.
Uh, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to adjourn

this afternoon. We a r e going to -- we, counsel and
the C o u r t , uh, uh, will prepare a set of j u r y
instructions f o r you, and tomorrow you will hear the

jury instructions and you will hear closing argument
from counsel.
Uh, I ask that you be back here by
10:OO tomorrow morning. All right? And, again,

don't talk about the case among yourselves or
anything having t o do with t h e c a s e .
( J u r y out a t 3:45 p . m . )
THE COURT: Any f u r t h e r matters this

afternoon, gentlemen?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: No, Judge. I assume we'll
have an informal, uh, jury instruction conference i n
chambers a t about, uh, 8:00. Sometime thereafter, I
assume we will have the formal jury conference, uh,
on t h e record, and move to closings thereafter?

THE COURT: We'll -- we'll meet a t 8:00 i n
chambers to review and see i f t h e -- t h e jury
227
instructions are -- are ones that all can agree
upon. And, if they can't, we'll, uh -- we'll g o on
t h e record and the Court will make whatever
decisions are necessary. Uh, and if t h e r e are any

motions, we'll hear them at t h a t time.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That's f i n e . Thank you,
Judge.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . We're a d j o u r n e d .

(Court stands adjourned at 3 : 4 7 p.m.)
STATE OF WISCONSIN
)SS.
I, J e n n i f e r K, Rau, O f f i c i a l Court
Reporter f o r Circuit Court Branch 3 and the S t a t e
of Wisconsin, do hereby c e r t i f y t h a t I reported

the foregoing matter and t h a t the foregoing
transcript has been c a r e f u l l y prepared by me with
my computerized stenographic notes as t a k e n by me

transcription thereafter transcribed, and that it
is a true and correct transcript of t h e
proceedings had in said matter to the best of my
Dated this f j d- day ~ f & ~ 2007.
~ h ,
~ f f i c i i lCourt Reporter
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151 111 3/21 265 111 97R A-y-Cin-g 111 2 1 a
16 M 37113 37/19 ~ l71/10 l 9313 27 p ] 25l6 2519 W l 4 119nSl2oM a m [3] 411 76112 76/U
16W 1231 3715 3715 39117 39121 84/15 11614 27th [I] llW6 abbreviated [12] 2IV5 4WU) 4111 4112 42P7
8516 85/14 W l 0 93/20 XWIO f 54B1 28 [I] ! W 4 49/2 83116 183il3 1W 184MZ I W 213/6
15422 l8W12 1W1 I@# l91nO 2lZt2l 29 121 Wl4 lziup abilities p ] W4 9W4
21415 214114 214/25215/17 21322 2:lO 111 177/7 '
ability 1121 86/14 86417 87/10 87/16 88/11
I65 111 316 1W14 1- 173/17 18911119Ull202)23
166 [6JW 3/16 3117 3/19 3/t0 3/21 3 229114
167 [S] Y163/173/1931303/21 30 131 W14 175116204224 able [25] 3W9 3m4 38/12 55134 58/15
17 (11 95/13 31 [I] 95114 71119 9zn9 111n 114112 11417 115111
177-207 [I] 3n 1 38 13] 201/22 20Ut3 W 1 4 119/12 1 3 m 14325 14414 148/17 14913
18 131 95/13 98/229911 391 (2) 97116 9322 17U3 1 7 M 182#2 1 M 1W3 1951120115
19 (11 95/13 3:20 pm 111 226114 2231%
1WS [I] 15/24 3 4 5 111 227/16 abnormal (31 3419 3911 933
1930's [I] 29/13 3:46 [I] 226115 abortion 111 173123
1932 111 40nl 3:47 [I] 2 2 M about 11581 1641%17/19 17120 191120120
1939 11) 40/24 3rd 121 99/17 13Wl6 20/21211U 22/14 24/18 26/25 28/25 3[WU
1940's [ l ) 194118 31fl33fi8 41M W18 52121 9 / 1 7 56/17
1960's [3] 178D lWl196123 4 57t2 58t2 62110 W 67116 728 7319 76/21
1968 [Z] 17WIl l7Wl7 4-76 [I] 314 77/14 79/6 79R 8W18QrlI 80124 8 M S 8112
1969 [I] 179114 40 121 I N 139n7 8113 W14 84/13 88/1891W89Wl7 93tl6
197 (11 158/22 4S p] SjlS 201116 201124 94/16 9Bn %El 98/1198/15 98123100113
1970's [2] 1W5 18lB 450 [q 31fi 1W14 100119 IOOrZO IOU5 104n 1 0 m
ign PI w 1 ~ 1 17m 2 47817 3 1 1 4 3 ~ 2 1 9 2 a m 1 ~ 4 1 ~ l~ 9 m 4 ~ ~ 1 0 ~ 1 ~ 1 o s
1976[2] Sn179lS .194/10 110111110n8 111/10 lll/ll l f l l U 112/11
1 9 n [il 179116 IlYl4 112116 113911314llUlIL5/17
1978 [q 6/18 10n 159111201Y4 208/7 5 115/23117m 11918 119l2.3 12115 12mS
2(#K13208/17 50 I61 32/154vlS 41A7 136P7 fW1I 124121 1293 12W11 t27B 12718 1281t3
1979 [I] 219110 152122 129t2 U0/2132113132114 134/5 13916
IP80t [lJ 1QPl 50 pounds 121 U616 138114 I39/21146/12 147/6 148118149fl5 15214
1984g ] 218123 56 111 23/16 154117 155113 I56119 15714 157r21 1W8
1989[1] 219B J66 P] 30119 195110 197125 160r21160122 1666 l a 1 169110 17017
1% 111 219110 567 12) W19 195110 17W20 17W21lnrzO 17224 1734 17YlO
1991 [I] 219113 574 111 69111 175118 179133 l8lA 18% 183B t83K
1997 209114 587 111 67/18 1831'7 184122 187111187112 188/11 190110
1998 121 179110 179/21 19Wll I N 1 3 190/20194B 19S22 195/24
1:30 121 149114 19/18 6 196110 197118 198111 198118 199& 19/12
154 11) 167110 60 percent 111 lY7 200n 200121 20Uf3 203fl4 2W16 20513
1st 111 1IW4 60-page [lj 1- 2094 20-5 211/1214/14 220/14 220118
615 131 642Wl9 67B 22116 2W1225n 225122250 P7A4
CT
admissin;@] 12uf0 22&2 128/3 94/12 96/3 96/15 a7PZ 98t9 WH f W10
about, (11 227121 admib [l] 166115 1W18 10an0 101111 lo3n lo3nl103/13
abaence 111 30/f2 admitted 12) 3/15 131115 103115103117l03/251 ~ 1~ 5 114nl
absolute 111 42/16 admitting 121 15/2112111 115/2 116112 119B 119115 119/23 12m
absolutely 1171 2Wf 31/234W12 #14 adolescent 191 2919 3011 9Y14 91/16 193n2 1W4 12322 12415 12719 129t20 13115
74132 111/7Ill/% 111115 111122 1121 196118 1 W O 1971172W13 13U1S 13415134118 136fl6 137115 139M
11219 112h3 1W2 153120 l a 0 16W14 adolescents I41 55/20 4914 49n2 197/11 14W1141115 I43/15 146117 149/13 I49M
l a 9 adopt P]1036 10W23 1- 150114 19/15 151111 1511231529 152112
abstract [I] 14711 Adult [l] 183120 152112 19/19 15N9 153A 1W4 1 M
~ b n w11) 11n5 adults [2] 41i3 115/17 15714 1W6 I59122 166118 166118 166121
Abusers 111 8/1 advance [II 77/24 16714 167111 I67118 17316 175/14 176120
academic 121 9014 18715 advanced 121 Tsn 143117 179119 1 M 3 1W14 186122 2W15 189115
accepted [4] 15WZf 1 M 4 180124 193118 advertising (11 10&2 19U8 192112 193/%3 19WlO 198114 19Sttl
a- 141 21511 21512 215113 a w l 9 advisable [l] 2616 198/25 199111 199125202115 20M 2034
acddent [I 22/15 advised 111 2W15 203115 2099 203111206113 207B 21322
accommodating 111 3 7 B advisory [l] St24 22Wf 1tZ3R 225118 2 W l Z 226l20 226i22
accommodation [3] 37/15 38114 38n6 advocate 111 9/3 22711 22714 227fl3 228/3.22818
re~omplishments[l] 187/15 affect (61 1311726/17 26/18 110113 1lOnf allegations [I) 19213
Accor [I] 3525 163f74 aHeged (31 I2215 19W7aOgn
according [6] 35/25W10 47111 47/tl81/19 afiectad [tJ10911 153/5 allowed [I] 17416
2 1W affecta 1W19 138/19 allows 11) 93/15
accuracy (21 12W1 147/12 affWated 121 616 247m alluding [l] 2421
accurate 1141 8/5 31/17 7413 74i3 79n9 8314 afiliations (21 17924 M7Ptl almost [Z]13V24 17315
83111 92/249312 14U12 141114 187/18 afield p] 243720615 alone 11) 105fl8
1871222 m 0 after (35) 6113 24110 27n3 53110 65117 7- along (6) 919 5613 66/21 159114UHWQ
accurately [1] 4 W 75/15 75/19 78/199UI2 113118 116i2L 213116
achlwemeut [I] 9014 12U12 12319 12323 12515 13117 131# already [S] 9/7 22/25 5414 172117 18517
acknowledging [I] 12113 136122 13916 14014 15324 l6U4 179116 atso I481 7/18 7124 912 914 10119 lOnl 11116
acquainted [I] 21Blt2 l8lrU 182122 200112 2UlI16 2OV21201i22 12116 12/25 141%16t2 2r115 25/13 2925
ncquiwe [I] 147112 2OV24 2 W 208113 2 W O 2WS 26121 26/2531/15 3W4 3&23 39/2156/18
acquired [I] 57fl6 afternoon 17) 167114 l8WS 2 2 W 226111 6323 71115 79/13 85/16 8643 M S lOOnl
across 13) 82124 219m 222J15 2W17 227n 227118 lOln 1- lm 12219 12716 133/15
act 121 Son8 87/23 afterwards [I] lt4nS 14016 1-8 161110 161114 166112 170n5
acthe [I] W14 again 1611 11110 1615 19/22 20119 3614 172B 172/15 172124 18914 193118 l97t22
actively p] llztz4 11313 39110 44/25 4714 47113 4919 49118 W6 20314 21m4
activities 121 179/4 187111 54n1616 61119 62/16 63/li 63118 64/8 attered (11 29/10
actual l7) 20r2 2416 42111 42i22 153117 64/22 bdls 61n2 68/16 6911 69113 70/6 7W6 altern [I] 14514
16M0 21312 76/18 9l/2197/12 lorn3 107116 1 M O alternate [2] 5h24 SU2
actually 1301 41/19 45116 4923 74/16 999 11U25 1f 218 114122 13311 1332 142110 alternative 141 l W 6 144118 14514 14518
112418 ll# 13017 130124 13W14 1W6 lSl1lS 153/2 1- 16321 16QIZO169118 alternatives [4] 140111 144110 144113
144/3 14618 146115 146n114715 15lll8 174118 IW18 18516 186111 1 8 W 1W 145/12
155115 155116 158)25 15911165n 173113 196120 205118 U#1110 20914 21W8 222113 although IlO] 80118 86/11 94n8 llm5
176110 18WS 213/22 2 1 m 22WlO 221110 215/8 218/12 21W18 227/13 134116 134120 1 W 19211821015 217n
221123 against (41 14212 18nl4 l ( 8 166114 alwayfi IS] 27/17 lW6 159119 179112
actuarial I11 10317 age 4914 49/22 7111 7114 9911 196125 21W11
ad [l] 17W6 IPS122 a n 125) 5125 7110 13115 171'2523/20 43il4
add 131 27nl %/lo 196ll9 ngcncles [l] 6/31 64/3 64/20 82/18 97118 I M 2 10413
added 111 14U2 aggressive I21 30/13 1Wl1 1 m 2 131119 136% 143D 178/3 t W l 8
adding [I] 65B ago [I31 7116 3715 11913 181/2118216 192114 19U19 192121 19416 197115200/25
addltlon p] 19/34158111 18U17 19411201n 20N9 20612 21113 211# 202R
additional [S] 271927/12 70124 75721 7912 214n0 American 191 7/14 7121 7/237YI9 lM13
790 157117 16715 agree 129) 84D4 8Sf4 87/20 1OQrl lt6112 16314 179l25 18617207r24
a d d m 131 1320 27115 %# 126116 129116 129m 132125 133118 147115 Americanlztd [I] 16314
addresstd [5l 11416 172n 172117 17816 147116 147n2 147125 15323 15411 17Y9 among 121 9422 227114
19YS 208115 21W11215118 2N12 220P2122Y4 amount [3] 13221 1 W 1 16W3
adequate [l] MU12 221/25 2231r7 22318 224116 224121 22811 anatogiea [I] 86/19
edequately 121 87/10 87/18 agreed [4] 181n0 18112318InS 222113 analysis 151 3719 81/15 88/25159ff5 197122
adjourn [Z] 14911422716 ahead [14] 15/102513 46/l5 47LM 751'9 aog v ] 9OLS
adjourned 121 22&¶ 22W 79/23 811U 954 11215 13115 14111 144D2 anger (201 3fbU 391'2 391339/18 88119
ad]ustmmt 111 196114 149120 21811 88/W 8919 89111 89/17 89/19 9019 %It22
administer P ] 3711 5fn 83lB 84/9 116n3 a1 [I] 1 M 901t5 9Y619U10 192(11193/2 19318 19315
117l7U014 22W alarm [I) 104113 21614
administered [25] 3111 7416 83119 83Pt0 Alex 111 21818 angry (31 39/5 3% 391Y
83/20 83/22 8322 96/18 96/20 116111 11715 alienated 141 2715 36/11136/15 36/18 Anna [S] 13#3 137/22 13916 1Wf2 W 6
117i10 13W4 f69/18 18417 184115 18411% alienation 17) 33019 36/3 36/4 3&% 71123 another (17 8/10 152.3 25P151)35 5211
193nl194n1 197132 I99111 201114 21419 93/18 93120 61/17 7411391111 1 W S 117114 111119
22M 22016 alive (11 122124 125121 24lUl7 28811 203122 21118 21817
administering 111 84/11 all 11431 8424 14183116 3U16 32/19 3312 answer [q2422 30/233 1 N 3Ut 47/17
administration 181 27112 8611 13913183tII 34n6 38/13 38119 39124 39n5 4Wl43115 5318 53122 5517 58112 6m.3 70114 7412
1893198117201n 203% W5 56117 58/13 !W2162/18 64/14 68118 77117 7Si1178124 79/23 85116 87K 9VIS
administmtive(11 1799 68119 7410 76/17612177/12 79125 80119 9714 97/21 9814 9816 9W6 10'7111107115
admbibility [I] 172416 81/21 8215 82/22 83fl83115 84/11 8714 10W15 llOlZQ 111113111114 111119 112/1
n
ryp~nmuun(41 ~ ~ LWa17
1 1 article 12) l m 8 21215
appllcatiana (11 217B articles 171 Ill8 11/241212l3/32OBB
answer-, 1451 11215 11M7 118118 11915 applled 131 39113 160n0 f92/5 208116 219P24
12718 12Wf7 141122 141116 141/17I41119 apply 131 9/1689/1519W19 Arfs [I]911
14lltS 14245 14U12142124 143B 14313 applying (1)2Wll aa 12971
144124 144)25 148/14 153/1116113163fl9 appointed (I]9l3 ascertain (11 31116
16U91164110 1641 1 m 16/81146i7 sppointment 12) 178120 180110 ascribe [I]13112
1- 1710 173117 19#16 19715 199m appreciable 11) 138/U aside 13) 4425 12114 12519
2411172032 203% 2W11207P7214t11 appreciate I$] tW4 66112 109115 lt7/10 ask 1621 17/1917/2017/2118/1Mn3 25/20
217113 2171182184 218ff2 221112 149110 40D 431% 44/23 4/1347114W9 49/6 915
answered (91 54/X2 8717 9711 9716 97/11 approach 121 64/1164/14 5316 53/1859B 63118 6&24 67/1867124
103/15 1W16 195Ell22119 approachingllj 64/13 6WO 691107W 7611 9(W8 W4 96/2 9714
answerlag 11) 93/14 appropriate [S] 561Z1L51/2l195nl 197n 97/5 9716 971710313 107115 11W1111~
answers 140) 34/20311%31/223211 52/17 I99n0 125110 12912 131121 1- 138/310141n
54/15Y!%
I J 5M1 W6 770110 92499UI4 appropriately (I]9W16 15013 153B lull1 15Sm 1W23 17(1121
wl5 92117931139- 96110 w 1
5 approved 111 147 18118 183fS 18W2 Iml 191/25 19714
104131 lf2E19 14V6 143B 1439 143114 approx (11 32/13 199112 2051115 208/11209/82141 225/20
148/11ISM0 153118 155fl6 156117 1W19 approximately 171 14n0 5717 57B MU15 22618 227112
163114 164D 164113 16522 I94110 194115 l81/21182tl6 186110 asked t6l] 1516 16/1830124 53/2 54t9 58n2
20W9 2 W 2 2 22514 APRIL [I]1/10 58t22 5919 W9 92/16 92/79UW 9615 967
anti 15) 98113 98120H ! A% S/299/12 Archer (31 29/2394/2119#S 96123 974 97/16109t24 110110 lllfl0
ankcial[S1 W13 98/2098/25 9912 99112 are 1225) 4/11 W I 8 6fi 71%9/12 11Y4 1 W 3 128123 13% 13717 137f9 13917
anticipate 121 I7W422615 9/1110120 IQrUl lOnl I W 1111 lU6 13n 14Z6 142/lll42/131 W O 147H 147111
anxiety (291 301103Y13 7Y15 72/22 72LZ2 1415 15/1015/2117/1217/2518/131U18 lSOn 150/24 l5lll ISM15 16017 163/17
7224 89111 891179011390/17 90nl9111 lrvl9 lW1 1911 19B 19/1020124 20nI -1 1 M 2 16512 ldSn 16615 171f10
911591A 91/1293/17154117 154119 154124 22122 24/2130116 32113 32/1332/1832115 180/21 18914 19912220415 2- 2W22
1m4 1- 155fl1lm19225 193f7 335 35/6 3W 36/193612437H8 37h4 214114 220117 22111 22lh 22118 221/11
193112 193117 19319 19Sn 38/1938120 W 1 8 4919 51i851/20 SZIlO 221fl5 221117221/1822218
anxiow 151 191182711 271259/2772125 5;2/1354D 54/10 Wl2 M 2 5711 5913 asking (161 44/2060n0 10714 1M# 107113
any [I041 7B 9/;t4 f w1118 1118 1W8 l a 5 59/23 6W25 dl123 62/1867/1070/671# 108110 118PZ11223 t5OB 171114 181111
1% 1718 1812 25/2025/2126112 31/20 71/227611 7713 VrS 7711478/248W13 181118 18317 183/1021411 2W13
33115 34/139/12 46Q140i16 SUl5 58/6 80fl6 SODO 83/17W l 9 85n0 86119 86/23 asks [ll 173fl8
63/1270/1871119 73/20 74/16 74/1975/12 8912489fZS 9W390/5 9WZO 92/1393Pt 9317 aspccta 151 9/151219la12 53/105ZA3
91/1891/18W 4 9811899/1010114 l W 937 9M 9447 M 4 94/18 94/19 951I19518 assault [I]14116
f MbS 1Ouf5 lOUZl llU17 112117 tlSn5 934 95/2195/21 98/17 9913 100113 1W14 amaultive [I] 104119
117116 118f17119B 123/81WIS 132/1 10611 1 W 106111 l W 4 10818 108/9 assertive 111 30123
1- 15018 151n 15Y7 16611.166125 lOPnl l l a 113nl 123/t4 114112 I16119 assess (13)16f1230120 32~34351474n7
16714 170117 17W19 Iml2 17313 17314 11W4 11#6 118/18119120 12214 1224 89/10134122 1MU17 16416 188/1711#3/20
173ll4 17W3 17923 178112 179123 180/7 12219 1231% L24n9 125117 12Q14126119 193/16 19M9
fS&lS f WZ4 187/151W17 19u3 193113 lt6n0 126124 126/2412711 12714 127110 assessed [I] 336
193114 19814 198117 19812420011 200/2 127112127118 12914 129t24 1W4 1W14 arsmes (3) 4113 5212 14917
200/6 200118 201/820818 208112P08116 13047 131M3 W4/6 1 W 139124 14W5 asswing 19) 181163Y8 31/19W7 S9fi
21~210/15211117211117 21% 2fM 14248 14514 14518 I45111 1461'3 1- 59/15ti022 90162233
216/11 219/1219/52198 219110219/16 147111 147H3 14815 14#814918 lS1n assessment (31 334 186118 f96/19
220/19 222113 223B 22W5 225122226116 1538 lW21156flI 15714 1574 157112 assign [2]5W15 8265
22711 227I1722#4 157/14 157119 I57Ml15817158112 15W14 aaignment 111 186117
anybody (1)32iB 158117158120 159/13161124 16413 16-4/15 ~ a bp] t 9/1820E8 37t21
anymore 111 21714 16915 16912 170/817011117ylt 173)22 assistance 111 19W
anyone [SI 97/997/24107Il14WtO 14U23 175/14 178114 f 8015 18316 18414 1W13 assistant 12) 178/1817SlZ0
1542 196124W 1 0 18U2 185m 187112 lWl2 188/23 lW24 assbtants 111 156/2
anything [I11 57J384/10 90116 102121 189117 I9Y19 192/12192.124193f3 f 93h3 assisted (21 7420 229110
143/6 149/15162Q 174111 24424 21W17 194/10 1 9 a 3 I W 197112 197117 297m misting 111 51f8
227fl5 195'8 19923 2Ol& 241/172ozls 20315 msociate [I) 17#3
SnyvvlrY 111 33/23 20920 206123 210115214/10214/16215113 associated [31 18/1518n748/10
anywhere IS] W9 W f 3 11923 11MS 217D 21813 218t22219114 22UU) 227PT hsociates [I] 5120
191116 228/1228/3:2281422814 association 1121 7114 711771197n2 7t25 Sn
APA [I] 77/11 area (211 &2IWnl87117 107TZS 109116 1214 12/15 14112 7719 f%O/l186R
apologb 131 1374 203fi9 216J18 109118 11516 l2Sn3 12Y16 126118 129n msociations ll] 71'9
apologized (11 lUn5 13UflS 13U19 169R 171119 173t25 1744 W S U [I ~ll~83122 85.@92#3!W 9616
apparently (5) 175/11193/102W17 W 1 9 1746 22314 22319 2N10 IOU1 137m 1794205113 227119 22702
21469 areas [lOI 13/14W 1 0 331 If 411 1145 assuming I q 13Ull 174117 I74120 17515
apperted If j 6W10 131D 178112 196113 196120 19#l 1795
appear [6j N 2 W 9 76/2587117 1W17 aren't 141 30111 699 1 M I 1W4 attach 11) 20614
288& argument (21 105n1227/10 attempt 17) 2W7 7W13 18415 1 M 19718
appearance 11) 4 6 argumentative If 215% 20WU1205/fO
APPEMLWCES 121 1/12 4 4 ARMENTROUT [ZO)3/10168115 168120 attempting (21 18&3 222.B
appeared 131 11% 27124 IW12 169110 169l12 169f15 169121 170/20172119 attempts [2] 66/20 112/18
appeare 141 461887117 190/1019117 174114 175118 177116 177i18 177123 17W4 attended 12) 5/142 2 n
appetite 121 10114 10an 18113 182222 I89110 198IlO 207/10 attentton [I]22Wf 0
apple 11) 86n0 Armentrout's [I] 17313 attorney 1591 If20 V22 3l4 315 316 37 3/11
Appleton (11 210121 anns 131 141/414314 143/11 3/12418 4f8 419 1817 1818 20P23 2113 31L3
appticability 111 199115 around (51 Wf5 80113 80115 12816 1901% 31i742/S44/1546116 6W8 64/16732 75/11
applicable [Z) 10010 107flO arrested 111 12S2 79/2596/14llllM lllnl llW4 11845
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27/12 29/17 3016 3211 33120 3413 3619 36/13 beloaped 111 179125
attorney,, p9] 11818 13111 U118 137/16 44/18 44% 57/1557/15 67/10 691'871122 betow 141 27t25 4213 432 47PI
137119 1WU 144116 144123149111 149118 72/22 83B 8319 91/11 93Pl93/118122 Ben [ I ] 96122
f 49PZ115011 IWl4 LWZ3 1520 15315 90116 1W 1 M 5 115114 116!23 11914 Ben-Porath (11 94122
1 m166122 16817 175/%17SI16 176/10 119121 12Y3 13417 1WO14213 14313 benef~[2) 12912212925
20016 206/14 2 W 7 207B 207/1321m 143115 14/13 f 4!Y3 1W16 163110 169/12 k t [q 77/21 13712 15418 22W4 UOII6
2261% 13/23 173124 175110 18W6 182/l 184122 223i17 229/13
attorneys [3l 14/6 22D 1W 18511319618 197i6 202l3 203/1204125 bsbttr (22) 10112 12/172W10 4915 4919
attributes [I] I9M 2146 214/t3 224/# 49/23 53117 53/19 W19 61P7 10318 10319
audited 11) 5/11 bemme [q 23/21 59/18 59/18 59/19 181116 116/20 14116 146/19 1471% X64P24 1859
author (21 180n 180ff 2Wl0 185111 18Y19 191/122ON7
authored [4] ll/7 1In 11113 lVlS beeomes (21 9/19 62122 between 1 1 9/11 W l 9 89Zi 114113 1W12
authorities [Zf 12&24 127Pl been 11031 4/16 6/19 8/13 9ff 10fllOL3 lW4 1W4 197t23
authors [I] 125116 1W1O 10116 11121 t i n 1 lm 1412 14n beyond [Zj 157/17 182111
autoblogmphicnl[ll 1 W 14111141131413 1916 16# 16174BnS bias 111 201&
available [lo] 15/18 1715 9618 133B 139113 48/13 51/21 51/23 52/33 6111 63/22 73111 bible 111 16/23
183116 1W13 18% 21814 218/11 79116 858 W9 94/23 llln 112114 12213 BInet [IJ 1612
average I%) 131 1313 27/24 21/25 28133 12U5 12m3 139/22 139124 WW11SU3 birth 111 1911)22
32/16 32/19 331 33f341115 4U20 41/24 1W18 152120 1- 154120 15422115618 bit 141 109113 1W13 196110 1990
4W13 42/13 43Pt 43/164717 4718 47/22 158n1.1591191- 16911 169114 3 71/21 black (I] 1-
471% 47125 IIY2 W 5417 54117 55/11 1~1746174/211~/19179112179/15 btah(l] 26/18
81/1781119 m/r8 146119 18519 18614 179/211WllW4 LSQpl180i20180/21 Blaine [I] 6518
1W13 1WI9 190/f0 190112 180124 1816 181/12 lsU9 1WZ2 18416 blame [l] 176n1
Avtry [l] 12015 184/71%511185117185n1187/1419114 bland[l]26/18
Avery's [I) 120110 19216 1%/4 194115196/21197/2119%13 blank p] 8&21197/6 209114
avoidanm I101 30W 34/14 34922 34tM 35f2 19916 199121 20011 2W17 2WIS 205Q0 blasphemous [I] 16/23
35/14 35117 93/32 9459419 208/1208/5 21015 210111 21111211110 blind (11 32123
avoidant 11) 3Qr10 212114 213119 2f7B221115 222~822UlO bllnding Ill 4119
avoided [I] 36/12 2 W n O 229s blue 131 140115 141111141110
avoids [I] 1 M before (561 11119/17 lW7 Ill1 Ill3 1115 board 13) WZ 9 6 207lZ4
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157B 160/7 16114 16312 164%) definitive [I) 91/24 69PL3 70119 Md22 7W5 74110 74116 74/19
20216 20Wf6 207112 207/12 degree 1151 5/4 6113 23/14 23/15 3812 SlBl 75111 75/14 7321 75/2180/7 8112 83125
crosa-cxamination (I41 3/5 3112 76n0 76/16 5320 St3 74lZ 931%131110 1 3 0 143117 Bg4 88/88/1088113 88n5 89/1492223 95/L4
78/12 14M0 1W6 154/16 IS13 157B 17817 178f8 9632 98/18 98/32 110116l1OnO 111/4
16W7 16114 16312207/12 demonsfrate (1 20221 11315 1I5t24 116/5 11602 116t24 117121
cmswxlmined (11 78/19 den [I] 16313 ll8110 I18117 119f9 12M4 120119 12Wt2
cmsoctlon 111 29/18 denial 11) 131IZ5 12117 12111512249 lZU17 123/4 12317
cross-validation (21 2W6 202116 denied 131 tGll2S 1021 102n 123120 124125 124/25 I30n 13W 13#11
crowd 11) l W l 4 deniw ll] 166113 U7/S 14216 142113 14319 142)23144/6
crowds 121 110018 19017 denoting 111 I63/3 lW1O 151114 1Stn2 1W1 161# 16YP
Croydon M 1360 137m 13704 13811 denying [I) 13211 161114 16W3 162PI I63/7 164116 16513
culmination 11) 17114 Department (7) m3 1W16 17- 178118 16514 16514 16512117W14 171112 171115
eulpabllity (11 70112 1781% 208124 209/lt I71115 1808 1WlS 18119 181114 1810.3
cultural 131 20118 203116 203117 depend R 82.18 116115 182/1 182f131884 18917 189/8 189110
curious 111 8Wl5 dependent 11) 37n5 189f14 19014 19W5 1 M S 19U2 193/1O
current (6) 1m0 13/3W4 l73a 1 M 3 depending (3) 27/19 38D 16241 193/11 193Il3 19513 I95/4200112 200113
203110 depends 131 7IIPZO 197/18218119 2W14 2ooru1201/5 WID3 20319W 1 2
currently 161 5/185/19 6/15 1W5 179117 deposition 111 21318 206119 2- 2Ill12 211113 211/17 211120
2M3 deoressd It1 lOjlll 211/21212/17 2121222 1 m 214/1214/23
21922 UWl220/322015 22WIO Z W S
cusfady [?I 22133 58/255911159/15 59/17 deprlvaffou [I) 6Ill2

5 9 ~ 6012
~3 der 11) 29110
cut 121 36/11 6616 derivation (1) 29/10
CV (lo] 7113 W6 818 168116 168121 174119 derlved (1)63l3
1 0 2 4 92 ~ W .dmcrik 1201 5n 7/11 8/U19/11 11/13OD5
D 2818 2 4 3 28/22 34ff 7 47/12 48/24 5244
.52/15 86/16 170122 19111195/120IIf 20W8
D - r - l d n (I] l26B dmcribed 161 f YlO 17/4 4213 84n6 99D1
DA's [l] 168118 201M5
idaily 121 2W 116118 decriblng 13) 31/18 6914 70116
lDASSEY 139) 117 1/U 4 3 4/10 23/1833/22 descrlpthre [4] 17115 1- 191122 I9a4
24111 25/22 26tI 16/132&24 3015 5ln6 daign pj 134119 16415
~ 1 10312 2 IZOD UIF)121120 12tl10 d = ~ l u ( d~1 7/15
122111 123115 12418 127124 14814 15% derbned 161 54/22 95P7 134119 134n3 164!
U 1 W 1- 16819 168111168/14 17115 DR 117) 313 3n0 BllS 149i3f 1W4 166/19
175113175l25 176/24 178112 17W16 181tZO 169115169/24 1718 171/22 1742tt 182115
dlffirent- 1181 110112 1239 128120 129124 1811W 184f8 1839 !HI5 188220 1891W 206/17 207fiOZUf10222111 2W22
144112 144125 1452 145/20 14616 146111
160/25 18U4 18114 18115 19N52W18
189124 190119 19012519111 191116 19ln.3 Dr. m] #I4 24/22 37n 76/18 13W !31/8
191123 19916202n 204D.3 2WI7 205% 132417 16614 lMU20 369i2 169110 169/12
222122 222IB 207m 209m 21W4 215115216P7 217/3 169/15 169/21170/2 1M17 170112 17W17
dmrential ill 37/25 21811 2I8/18 2 1 W 218/20 220/12 22111. 170120 171112 17Us 1W19 172t25 1730
differentiate 111 114113 221114 221115 221118 22WZ 223117 226116 1731% 17414 17918 17M 176P7 17814
differently 111 146/9 227115 23916 lSVB l8U22 1W23 18311183/6 284114
difficult (3) 57123 1W104125 dactor 1591 Sn 28/17 28/18 WS 4W8 43fl 185115 18W2 f 86417 188111189110 19118
difficulties [2] 188122 196117 43/24 4415 45/19 46/14 46/16 W 0 471'20 191113 191116 19x4 193/6 f93/11 193n1
armtally 111 1911~1 48/19 60110 64/16 6713 68/24 79/13 SWI 1948 IW I98/10 19811s 200114 200121
dige~t(1) 191112 8Y13 85/1391/15 97/25 9915 f MJs 10311t 201114 2 W 21217 21UIO 213/4 2 1 W
dimeasions p] 18fU18 189/2 10713 112/21124/3 12517 127110 130124 21419 214125215$f7216B 216/12 216/16
direct I101 3/4 3/11 4/25 78P25 79i7 9 7 m 135119 13'717 137119 141i15 141120lW15 216/18 21#6 21W6 22M 2W19 22321
10922 177M W 1 9 214114 14W 1 4 W fW17 147B 148112 151n Dr. Armentrout 114) 1- 169110 169112
directed (21 17Y16 192tt4 lSW8 153111153115 155124 1~1172JlO 169/15 169/21!5/20 1Wl9 174J14 17Si18
direction [31 31111 194122 218110 174tY 19114 1991820W3 206/16 207114 17W4 18118 182122 189110198110
dtrectly (31 27/15 116n1 173117 224/20 223119 Dr. Armentrout's (11 173M
Director 11) 613 Doctorate 12) 5'6 17IU10 Dr. Butcher 121 1 W 2 l W
directom [I] 915 Doctom (21 Wnl94nZ Dr. Gordon 1271 241227643 13Y8 132117
disabilities f I] ljtf document pj 45/21 153124 ISS19 19U5 161M4 169P2 17012 170n 170112 170/17
disabUity (71 117117 117/21 11W f 1WZ2 1!&!22mlno w n 2 172/8 17615 17W 1836 185115 188111
124113 124/16124118 documeats 13) 75n7 75/18 21315 19111319316 193/3119&211!M 214B
disagree (31 147117 1691;U 216/14 does 1431 37/214115 47/24 481W 4908 21425 215/17 216/12 216116 21611%
disappointed f3) 14115 141118 14312 59/14 60118 6116 6U3 7011 7114 7Y14 7211 Dr. Gordon's [20] 17U12 l72!25 173/21
disappointment [l] 14113 72/15 82f7 83/2186n3 8715 87/10 87a4 18WZ3 183/1188/1418922 18Q11719118
dbmrn 11) IW 8711s 9tn gin rorno rom 11uwiwio 191/16 19314 1 ~ 1 5 z o i / t z4o a 3 tluto
discipline [lJ 107125 127114 13817 14315 14315 14m5 14913 2134 213m 2 1 2 ~~ n 223n1 9
dkwurtesy 111 2I6/13 15911 163/22 18712318818 191I24 Dr. Gudjonmon (31 200/14 200121 22012
discovery 13) 169/13 175fZ5 176115 207n 21715 21717 224f14 Dr. hymond 111 37fl
dbcretlon P ] 168/3 t90f11 doesn't [19) 34f143116 6611% 79/219112 Dr. Robert (11 4/I4
dkcuss [I] 8%122 1Qu23lWl3 lOW2l 109124 109124 113114 Dr, Trowbridge I21 130/2 21U7
dbcussed (51 15245 156(12 167117 IS124 133116 138n 13814 13814 13816 1- Dr. Williams [l] 21816
21249 148123Is6115 draw 14) 91n4 20714 20715220113
discussing (41 8/186711316161I91/19 dog [2) 86n0 114119 drawn (51 169119 lW1119U4 1W17
discussion 12) 64115 86/24 dog-eared [I] 114/19 217123
dblika (6) 10322 10415 1Mff 10418 1035 doing 181 61% 1W5 17/172184 66113 80111 draws [I] 191113
1W13 85/14 179Ptl DrQin 12) 125118 126/6
d border (31 98125 99112 9/13 dollar 131 16212516314 163111 DrMn (71 lZjJ18 126B 12616 f2# 126116
disorders (1) 437 dollars P] 13#7 36)91 lWt1 127111128113
displayed [I] 133f7 dominant [2]37/18 3916 drop [l] 19614
disposition [I W 4 don't I1131 16n5 18/24 2111 23116 24114 dropped 111 17Q413
disrespect 12) 216113216116 Wf 4 24/32 2W W l 9 3m3 33122341'7 DSM (61 4319 44/17 44/2444/25821t5
dlsstminate 11) 1WI 36/13 38/12 4118 48/12 a 4 50117 5V6 186/5
dissertation 13) 12/12 1Z16 19618 52B 52421 6113 6114 66/167/767E9 77/7 DSM-4 [SJ43/19 44/17 44114 44n5 18615
dirfinct [21 181f 10612 78/5 79/18 79134 8011580118 8814 88fS 9113 due 131 sn2 5516 13016
dlstlnctioa [1) 82/19 93110 9612497B 9W 10W16 104P7 10QP7 duly (2) 4/16 177119
distinguish {l] 46/17 IW14 1059 106110 107114 107120 109113 duraiion (31 59/12 59114 60/8
District [I) 117flS 111119 llml 11310 l W l 4 llslld 11522 during [1?J27B 27/11 72J25 73n 78/25
divlde [I] 4518 11~11~611~117fl~17/3ll715117/7 99l2OlOU2133PII3319143123150n
Division 12) 7n8 7n1 117f9 117/ll117l24 12W6 123tZ 12513 1W19 180E9 180113 193125 1 W 3222116
do [I911 4113 5n 5/184'8 713 1019 12/19 125D 124R 126/1412814 13116 133/6 dudes [I] 20816
1322 ~mtms lm 17111 19n w6 2242 133n113m 1 ~ 1371104 137ns im DVD [I) 25110
2S/l m! 26B 28/t5 29/2 30120 30ft43b2-4 13SfZ2 138125 139114 1 M 7145/15 149/15
3ln 3W 38/13 441246/12 4711 48/16 48/20 lYY3 l W l 4 172J18176121 17-74 178/16
48122 5011 53/17 53119 57t3 5713 58/17 IW16 386223 193115 1 ! M O 2 W 8 205/8 E
59111 62/13 62/16 Q3E9 63lW W13 64/16 2099 -1 2M12 212f172131% 2141 each (10) 38/19 5015 57/10 61/13 152f25
64118 69nO 69Ptl691W 7iU2 7W4 7 M 21- 2 I W 218118 U016 22YlO 2237 15Zn5 169/17 18916 lW10 202i24
71119 74P2 746 774174t7 76n177122 7812 223/8 224123 2W16 227114 eared (11 114119
78/12 TBn3 8WZ 80111 8YJ 81/7 85117 done 1321 1W16 16/lO 20116 3W6 %I0 earlier 151 22/21 73115 105/222139 22W
W 7 87m 87/24 87/25 9W5 90f9 6Y15 80123&It24 8111 95/10 1271513WW early [71 5112 W 6 1- 179i1518015
96/17 1OOG lO1n lOlll9 loll20 10315 131D 19/17 162111176/2 179/19 185/5 18015 181G
10316 1W4 106/1 107n 107/3 1 1 3 / 1 1 1 ~ 4 18545 18718 187112 1871151%/23 196)ll easier Ill 34/15
11716 117114 117118117119 122f7 1U18 199/13 200/18 209/32 1 ~ 2 213/IS
4 217n1 easily 131 38f13 116/7119117
122417It&%123M I23t412315 123B 2I7fiI 21m2 easy 111 118n
Itdl16 127B 12718 12916 129)MI 1301M Door [l] 21W EDELSTELN 12) v21419
150/21134/2013523 136fl136111136n7 doubt (21 23/14 11919 cditioa (5j 18311 1- 1183114 18616
L38if 13W18 13MM 139L3 14012 14116
143M 146119 14714 l a 118111 19/13
down 1m 6/14 35/11 3714 37/9 41119 41120 196f6
43/15 48/12 4W156414 6415 65/16 65119 editorial [I] 5814
1Sll15 IS1118 152/4 15%2115212115447 67a0 6811 69/13 8&3 %/I5 95/16 13712 editors (1) 1216
15418 1W22 15925 156/1 IS224 15W125 137# 149/14 14912516612119712122919 education 161 IW 4W4 73/13 73/13 12M
164/24 16913 L65/l3 165121 16619 1W11 d m n (I] lfZnZ 2WliZ
& evaluated [21 W14 220125 expanrlon 12) 21123 21123
evaluates [I] 84/17 expect [6) 1036 10544 115/8 143113 143n:
educational P] 515 1'1111 18717 eraluatiug (31 15/193S/l6 4IUZS 17412
effective [l] 193118 evaluation 1311 6/4 21n0 2614 2- 26/13 expedntion (11 IWI1
effort11) 21918 26/21 27114 27/17 28/18 2W23 3W5 3318 expected (21 1094 221)125
eight 19 671t06812 8712 128114 1W 39/4 4&22 49/19 Sin6 35/19 66113 70/25 experience 191 14713 1593162412 183115
lW10 218110 192'25 196120216124 217/121811
eitber [27) 14/6 33/17 5705 83/19 83/21 ~xperienesd(11 51A
9t13 92/8 93H2 103/20 103122 10415 106114 evaluations 119) 1W5 1016 l#2l l W 2 l9/a experiences (31 7U14 71121 71122
107122 1164 1 2 6 ~ 213&6 140/21157/23 2241 ZW2 W 1 0 2Wl3 5717 57/20 61A 8 W 7 txperiencing{l] 19424
16817 171113 179112 192125 195111 19715 15114 15916 159t10 159fl8 20911 210/25 ~xpwiential[I] 146116
213fl8 216/6 218/5 evaluator 111 6214 :xperiment [lj 20241
elaborate (11 5919 wen [W 2.314 26/15 28/15W13 34flSU18 ?xperimental(l]9113
elapsed (11 201117 56123 7118 W23 83/16 96/11 109/f7 1 1 W =pert (151 9/23 16/14 131114 131/16 148H;
elapses (11 204119 lZOn5 12716 IZ7ltO 133t22 13411 136/16 168122 168125 16916 17116 171117 171/19
electronkally (21 93110 156/3 137121 139/13 139120 141123 141124 142n5 180125 18116 187iZO20714
elements [l] 188/20 153125 155R lW10 17W14 173116 184112 ?xpertise13) 7/12 2210 17315
elwated 121 33/25 IOZn4 IaSn lW/I 20lt18 20512 207/5 rxperb 11) 16/15
~ r t ~111
i t6 9 ~ avenlng 121 lm ls8ll8 :xplain 14) 24116 W15 41112 9Vtl
eligibility 11) 1- event 171 14616 146120 14714 147110 147111 rxplained 14) 17614 176/14 214/24 2 14/U
eke [17] 717 68f8 68112 76/6 85118 12UI 147121 148i19 rxplatnlng 11) 17815
13W 159n 1590 16925 17411 f 89124 eventa [ I ] 13W4 nplains 11) 46/12
19V24212116 212117 22411%225114 :ventual [l] 8Ut2 !xplanatioa [l 176116
else's Ill 22W3 :ver u6] 10n 13/20 1332 20113 79)9 79/15 !xploits [lJ 98/15
embarrassed 111 W 1 8 low22 IW19 118110 118/17 15511 16Ys cxposed I11 5004
E m h y 111 204/16 1W 180121 1W14 2 W 8 expound [I] 2EW9
emotional 14) 30/19016 93/12 194123 evtry 17) 38115 44120 108t2 139/4 13914 axpress [21 9W14 141/3
employed [q5/18 5/19 178/2 20417 20W3 153/11 I53112 sxprmed (11 60/j
employee [ll 187/25 everyone 111 7/7 expressing ( 1 ) 3911
employing [ll QPUl werytbing ll] 14714 axpression (131 38/2338125 39/1888/19
employment [7JMI22122 1W15 179m widmcr I5j 77nO 13314 13317 1339 166/14 88/2389/10 89/19 9019 Sans 192l11193/9
180/17304/1209/10 wident Ill 16111 193116 21615
encounter 111 216R exact 141 16/2553/12 57/10 2214 1 rlrteaded [q 95122
encouraged (11 180/17 exaggerating It] 9313 93/9 txCnshre [l) 16/10
end I161 38/15 3W6 311117 38118 39/19 exam (11 1W ?xttusivcly[I) 12716
47El481165(12 6716 68fl81119 104117 examinrmtion 1321 314 3/5 316 317 3/11 3112 :xtent 11) 196115
I3(W8 137117 1SW 207a 4t29 25125 2717 5512376/10 76116 78/12 txtractlng 11J 1-
enforcement 14) 105113132119 13312 78/25 79W 8612 lW23 144120 147125 kxtreme 141 127B 127113 195114 IW14
133i21 f50n215W6 154II6 156113 15715 16017 fxtrernely [5] 5W24 68)9 6W 9319 1W12
engineer ]!I 9iZl !ye 141 26/17 10118 101/9 101110
Engl(1J W 1 2 111 lows
England 19) 13410 135/11137n5 U9ff
139/22146/1314#9 2 W 8 2 W 5 F
English 11) 163Pt hce 121 101/8201/9
enjoy 121 17W112 179124 acet [I) 4318
enough (6) S1/3 51/6 SW 51/10 189f17 :xolmining [l] 28/20 acifiitor 111 22/23
214/17 bxample 136) 14114 19/17 22412 2712 27/13 hcilitstor's [I] 11/17
enter P] 15&2 27/18 6412 66f3 66/2369/3 69/10 M R 70113 aciliti~s[I1 1W19
entering [ll 196134 70/1178198QP221W109/4 130/11140/11 iet 139 4314 WIQ5918 77/19 nm 79125
entire 3111 51D 16418 1 M 2 14U181561U 161rtO 16220 16616 81/17 88/2189/14 10615112122 12W14
entirely I31 217/16 2 2 4 6 224/20 166/8 166/12 19062 W 4 2U3t24 210119 120117 l a m 0 12~151zs/ri 1w413312s
entirety 111 87/13 21318 2IW7224/522417 X34/1114W10 I48123 149B 169/2417115
entitled [3J 12/14 173% 21216 exampla 17) W18 70121 112117 141a 171f7 171!23 17U117UZ 1SUlf 1735
entrim [I1 l W I 3 161R 161114 1Wl4 1%7118187124 18W152 W 4 210119
enumerate 111 14f3 except [q 7Pt 32/19 333 84/24 I0116 kctor 1211 3718 37/14 37n4 50125 60/21
equaling 11) 55/10 exception [q 187/22 611967112 67n5 7U2 W l S 72/20 7313 73/6
equivalent [l] 18719 exclurlvely [I] 711 7517 74/f3 7413 10016 10518 133/tl
er 111 excuse [lo] 4615 W10 741259119 161123 147P23197P21
error [3] 209/17 209fi9 2#/20 1694 167B 173111206115 21907
erron 111 53/16 exert 111 W10
tspcfially 14) 7lA9 71111 146/18 199116 5xhlb-i 131) 8/12 8114 19111324% 37/16 4115
meniial Ill 74f2 4W 44/15 W6 461746124 53/25 10Y14
101125 124/4 1SY19 151122 ISllW 1 S I 3
1W12 l56/8 1- 156113 157B 157112
mtablisbed (21 401U 116110 186125 19U5 193l4207115 209/5 21QrZO
estimate 17) 10112 1W138412 185/7 i 83% bxhiblted ll] 10Y3
1W 18542 :xhlblUng [I] 15518
etc [I] 6D4 :hibit9 3/15 11W6 1 -
ethic 111 1311 :xkt [2l lsnl sw&9
ethical 13) 13/l177/8 771% :x&b ll] 20314
ethically (21 13/10 57/5 xpaod 13) 2243 23/15 23/17
ethics Ill 152120 ~xpandtd[I] 22/10
evaluate [SJ 15/1842111 2W25 22115 2W3 rrpands [I J 23114
r [malags 141 7 W 79/11 85/15 128n3 110139 115/13 12814 1 M 3 ISM1 156i12
Rue (1l] 2917 6W6 6 W 65'7 6W24 7515 157114 17316 17912 1%4/21Wf0 1W12
FALLON 141 1115 4ff 1 1 m 127124 75110 7618 l3Sn8 216i22 22816 1841%198FM 200124
Fallon's 111 1244 finish 131 X31D 176/9 176/13 Four-hour (21 110119 12W4
fabe 1581 15/11 1512015125 1V2-4 lm5 ffnbhed 121 122421 l a 1 6 Lurth 17) 24112 W17Wl5 73H8 11%)
1713 17/18 1711931/10322 9 l 2 0 9B892 ~nishing[i~ %no 14914 183/22
W6 105125106P8 106/14 106% 10716 fire [Z] 121/16 224123 Fox V J 1/11
107flP lWI22 l W l 3 12517 125/15 126/11 tlrst 1541 4/16 4220 6/12 WrZO 15/2521111 Paction (21 21/16 21/19
126117 126119 12714 127/12 127/18 128111 21D4 23/t134lU 34116 53Lt2 54196W4 111 17~117
12&20 l29B 129119 I30114 13W1513Oll8 76/tl78PW 791979115 89TZO 97# 105121 free [4] 7n 7n lwnl lW
13243 14017 14WO 1W15 1W16 1- 110120 11319 12415 t28n 12&2 129B 12918 W M G E N 150) 1119314 316 3/12 4l8 419
1449 1441131W18 1W4 14618 14W1 129B 1 3 s 135121136/15136/15 139115 1W12 17116 1814 1# I M I 2fB 31P7 4M3
163A4 16#3 164110 17W2 19Y1119716 14YIO 168112 1W8 17312417#5 177119 43n2 4415 46/16 6018 64/16 75111 11814
2 1 W 21913 219118 183/5 I83112 18314 1W12 191110 192112 137113I44/16 l5On XWlO I N 1 3 1Wl4
fahenem [ I J 1 m 1 19323 1W14 198n120018 200111201112 150119 1W23 lSUZ 1W15 165/25 1#lS
fam (I] 15/14 201119 tWl3 217n 166/8166122 16714 168117 169113170/10
f a m h r [QfJ 15/11 15/I4 15/1623/19 2312 it 141 ZW9 28/19 81/11 82112 17215 174f5 174111 17521 17613 176110
5912360135 88120 1 2 a 2 12615 127111 'IM 131 W3 1091M 109nl 17Q1221778 19lA207113 21&3
127117 127121 128/18 129/9 130114 130/17 It8 111 81/17 Fremgen's ll] 17M18
146/17 1510 169112 17Om IW17 I83118 i v t 1191 6/25 2115 54B 55/14 55/16 5718 hqwntly 121 19W 21714
18411318323lW13 1W12 19U21193fi 5718 87/2 97/10 11W3 1W13 3 4 9 3 lSWS Friday 131 9119 5123 !!I24
1W6 194%f 9/23 20012 20W5 20215 1S1/15 1 M 8 201/15 20506 205/18 21713 i.iendly (11 195n1
2035 206/23 21@4218122 219114 219116 ive-page 111 15Ifl5 'riends 15) 9/2 27/2 27/S 36116 71/25
familiarity 17 i l l 18811420003 22U14 Isvor [2) 135122203117 h n t [7j21/10 99m 1W 1W%100113
223la m 1 9 Z25flO %rids 121 9 W l 19W17 1341% 199n5
LmUhrkiig [I] 12/19 bcus 121 22219 223/14 ' r o w (31 77/23 m 7w5
hmilies [I1 27317 rocusing 111 17/14 all (51 8 1 s lW9 lWlO 185122 216/15
Ifamily [6j -624167Vt5 119116 1W4 123114
s,1.- --
-
b g g w [l] t05n5
old PI 14114 14314
Cnctlon 141 1211522/22 87/10 87/18
'uactioning [8] 18/14 19/1533fl9 4m 4816
II r [lo] 194 40E5 71120 81/22 1743 I87/1!
19314W 6 2- 21W3
olding [I] 143/1l
ollow IS] 13/7 13f8 150125 16YZ 163/17
~llowup111 163117
71113 88/12 186/8
Lnny [l] 10411
uraished (1) 7I1125
allowing 131 26/13 8915 1981U hrthrr (13) 57116 69L2S 70/18 89/10 15m
Fassbeuder 181 6415 64122 6714 6819 68/14 Foklwa (21 4/17 177# 176117 186124 199113200/6 226fl7 22#fl8
6IKW 69118 7011 Ford (11 10915 2261% 227117
fast 131 137D 147116 L47/19 bregoing 121 229n 229/7 furthered 111 82/15
atar 111 21114 ioremost 11) 16/14
G
-
fatigued l2l 59/18 62/22 brtnsfc [61] 920 6f4 619 712 9/10 9/19 9fi0
fault (31 7Ol3 1766 176411 9/21 9/32 10fl lOf3 12EJlZ211315 13/8 G-o-r-d+a 111 4124
Cax 111 21ws 1412 14/10 15/15 16/19 1715 17112 19n 19/4 GAHN 12) 1/174l7
fear 11) lMU9 1914 1916 19/232trU12719 44/22 51i7 56120 gain 12) 129113 129m
features 121 89/11 89116 57t.2 6118 7m 7m4 n i o 79/14 80122 gamut 111 lQlI8
February 151 25/6 259 11016 119~25 l2W 103no 1 ~ 1 109m8 1 ~ 1 16w 4 15917 karago 111
February 27 141 25/6 25/9 119BS 1ZOD 16915 170124 17118 17111%172/12 173115 gauge [a] 91h 11mO
fderal [I] 1419 175/1192/19203/10 20712'1 207Pt5 210117 pve (81 91111 92124 96B 9QIZO 96/11 96/22
feel 141 1 W 1 W 118116 1Wl4 21W5 215/12 21716 217f8 220113 141119 1W6
feeling 131 26/25 2712 lOVZS bre~slca!iy[I] 12/13 general (141 13E572LB 84/18 86/12 8716
feelings 111 63/15 orenslralty-related [I) lW13 87/14 105M 133115 133117167125 17U13
feels 111 217P14 oresee [I] 12/12 1 W 0 1 M XM16
fellow [Z] 7116 12917 orever (11 I W 2 pnerally 18) 1811362/21 7612210214 10515
ftlt (81 27/3 34E9 44114 118114 t 19/12 orgot (21 sol9 20911s 1 W 4 11717 194/11
185/19 19011 195125 orgotten [I] 76/1 generated [q W3 88/15 l W 4 l56l24)
few 17) 7/2 220 27/159B L63/17 167D orm (141 17124 19n 3W3 51/25Sln5 156125 189/7 214112
215/12 119/l2 124f10 12#15 144117 155/10 1830 ;enerlc (11 1911
ride (11 33/20 183/f 9 1971920212 :entlemar 14) 1- 19016 194E 21UZ
field [15j 7112 12/20 13122 15123 1W1423h ormal[1) 227/22 lentternen 121 22716 227118
126D5 t27D 171i12 17- 18QrW18fff Dmnt 111 187A pi 139 E)20 12/1622/15 22/24 WJ14613
217fS 221s 221120 ormed [1] 199114 5212 5519 55/10 55/12 58f2 6W2 6%
fields 111 10813 ~rmingIll 131110 631774/3 831 85t3 10017 1001t4 104114
Pi@ (11 13619 Drms 12) 51n4 52n 308122 l W S 1W/6 109110109114 117111
fllt 191 854 137D 15014 lSOll1 175122 ~rmulate111 49123 1270 130116 13322 1401211 M 27019
f 82~2.31 M 4 212114 224f9 rrmulrting (31 23# 7243 215117 17614 184124 19248 392/3120314 W 4
fib P] 182115 nrmulatious 111 19243 W 13) 716 14lD5 14211
fill 12) s6nl ssn5 3rth Ill 12112 :eUing 1 7 2713 83B 9 9 M 100113126f18
filled 111 19916 ~rthcoming(21 1051151 W 6 158124 I66117
tiaal [ll 40/11 orward 131 33n3 9314 129/8 l s I i [2] 1&75245
finally (31 Wl IWI6 369n2 dund [I 11 32/2537/f 3 6217 64t3 8119"9tS give 113 1M 1718 5I/t4 5M3 W4 62123
flaanfes Il] 13/18 8517 16m5 19lPtO200PM 202119 6918 83/10 83/169118 129fl9 1dW11 14Ull
find 1191 65/4 11821 11819 1189E4 118/24 bundatlon IS] W4 I74117 174118 174121 16942 17421 1941121200/d
120118 120/22 12QrtZ 176116 189/2119011 17g6 17SifO 199&1200/1 wen (171 5fl6 22# 27/15 29/20 3Illl32/3
19~116 IWI t9m m o 202112 20m 'ouaded 111 1 W 4 13Bll I39112 144124 154B l W l 6 168122
m 1 2 UOll our 1281 13123U2033/433(5331734# 199PL4M 1 4 20715 210123 213118
finding 11) I89113 4013 W13 60116 83119 83121 #D5 84/11 glvw (31 1 m 3 141116 14U24
a- .wrrr J W ~m
L a 7 a1117JYI* M I A 0 MllV AWL& LWAS 1/13 JW& 53fU
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59110 6YS 6V6 dU3 62n 6U136Qn6 6915 37l8 37t9 37111 37113 3915 39114 41/23 4313
givlng p) 77/17 77/18 160119 7W16 72t3 tZlS 72/16 81D4 W4 1#5 43/25 46111 46/12 46124 4711 47/147117
gleaned [l] 19318 l34/7 144/12 14511 1492 145'4 14Wl 4W2 49/5 49/15 49/21 49123 54/12 54/15
global [Z]37/14 37/14 15814 15WrS 161121 1611W 1 m 0 164Ll 5515 W6 W1S S l 9 58125 5911 6W12
p 147 12124 12/2425n 2913 29B 3Y7 3416 17516 I N 1 2 200114 200/2120M20 2 1 m l 68122 70l3 7015 7115 73111 7M175n3
M2 35/15 39116 39116 W l 5 40/15 43/16 21915 220P2 22W4 2241122414 22414 224122 79m 79/20 81116 W4 87/17 9218 PU9
46/15 47/20 96U13 67~246911369/25 Gudjonsson'r 111 60121 92114 W25 96113 96/10 97/14 97/24 9811
7Wf8 701U 7519 79122 8014 8416 95/5 9920 gums 1121 34/13 W4 7322 8511 92/15 lOOn l W 2 l IOU6 lOln4 lOlM lOl/25
l l W 5 11W 117113 11819 llano 13115 95/20 171/23 172/18 187113205115 20316 101T25 lOZlIlW4 IOU23 10224 IO3n
141111 M 2 1491M 1W3 15fW1111i3n ZWl8 1 W 2 1W15 10316 103117 107/17 107120
1W4 186124 189/20 193nO2IW 22#/l guesses (11 1401M lWnO lo7nl112J2 llW12 117t21117n2
goes I61 43AS l W l 2 13411 17418 1W17 guide 111 1Yf7 117/25 119/17 12Q19121110 12Y16 12Yfl9
l97P24 guilt pJ 62f9 Wl4 121nl121r22 1m141~ 12512 1250
going I631 #13 8/18 22/13 2420 2sll12915 I11 6m 12%11913#21136/23 137/3 I37113 13813
3W8 MI7 341743/14 41/146/3 46/13 49l6
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14Yll141/2d 141125143n 143s 1438
7 ~ 8 2 ~ 80115 3 81n1 81m 9214 H.11) 14319 143111 1 M 6 143/I7 14318 14319
W4 97B 97/12 1 - 109/10 117/13 1W4 H.Gordon [I1 4123 143119 143nG l a 0 144B 1446 1W6
12% 13W4 1 3 W 1W6 13911 135119 had [W Wl7 21112 28/j 29/13 4an 4W11 14416 144'9 14410 14M1 153111161111
13W201411114111l 4 W 1 W 9 149113 49\15 5615 56/24 5716 64/25 62/15 65l4 73/% 16- 165/1165/3 1694 16514 16516
1m15317 16718 167122 1671U 17413 73/11 73/17 76/12 77/13 88/17 96/25 lW19 167123148/2117#17 1- l7yZ 171112
174/1517~175122183/620511820617 10312210515105/12107/4ffS15117122 171PZO172E8ln/f2173/4173/1617~1
2 W 206114 22716 227f7 143/17143117 14/18 1WO143120 149122 1 7 4 4 17g4 I7515 17515 17WO 1 7 m
gone [t] 5117 13/21 15[W11501171W19 156112 162B 16UU 176B 17614 188517 189n4 1WM 190110
p o d [I31 4n 4U1276/18 76/20 9Qrt !W5 162~24l a 1 I7712 17&20 179/3 180119 190/11190/13 190/2119012119On5 1 M 5
12116 131/21140/12 17UY 1 W 24Wl7 18VX2 181m 1829 1 W lW17 19Y11 laOlU 19m 1 9 m 196'8 200/3 200117
22MO 1933 195n lPQlZll9712519W 198/6 20M8 241114 201115 201/23 2 0 m 203112
GORDON (451 3J3 4/14 4n5 24/22 198121 19915199B200/10 200/11201R 203114 205n 206/18 207n 2032 22216
761189916 103111 107D llU2112W 131B 301fl2 201125 20318 W 2 W 6 20SP25 2 W 22U23 2Wn 22313 2236 22412
132117 149m I5014 1W4 166119 16912 20913 M9/2121lJ4 Zf11821213 212113 22-4/19
169115 169n4 17012 17017 170/12 170/17 213B 213115 213118 21U9 213n0 2146 he'd 111 140121
17112 171t22 17uS 174122 I7&5 17W7 2U)llI 221115 226114 229113 he's [231 1611516121 17117 17/20 5%n4
18316 I W f 5 lW1119U13 19316 193fll half [q 3615 53/15 17015 18514 18816 20612 41124 43/14 43/18 4811 SQrl75/3 81119
193P211941821419 218125 215n7 216'12 halfkay [I] 141n 98/22 10243 1423 14517 1 6 8 M 178120
216116 216118 222111 hand [4] 43/10 156n 177117 195112 20011 205'14 223n 223/132 2s
Gordon's 12-41 17102 l m S 173/2118U15 handbag [l] 1W6 head [2] 6#868/21
182123 183/1184/14 1851% 186/17 19M handbook p] 16122 22013 headachw [Z]33121 10212
191116 19314 194111520y14 tW17 204323 banded [l] 19114 health (141 99 6E 616 6n6 11/24 33/19
21U10 2134 213n2 2169 2WIO 2W19 handwriting [I] 19W4 33120 331%f79n 1 m 180n8 1W
223121223122 handmiiten 121 1991621W13 1951521W16
got Ill] 65/11 65/19 65/206711196115 hap (11 69/16 hear 17) 47119 77118 167121 1W22 227l9
11019 110117 llOn8 13222 134/25 I W l l haphazard 111 170110 227110 22815
166119 happen [W 11311 113113 128/4 12#S 13U14 heard 19) 43/1947/1764/11960 1211tl
grade l4] 24/12 73/15 73lf 8 11519 happened (51 69/15 69117 69119 10411 125182W10 200112 Mli2
gradual [lJ Z I I U 199110 bearing [6] 5U22 12- 174123 182.4
gradually [I] WllO bappena 141 6818 10313 1fW21W4 182Jf0 2093
graduate (11 6/13 happy 111 f W 4 hearing [I] ism
grant [I] 221119 hard M 69118 104/14 1W147flUMnO Harst (1) 130110
granted [I) 22519 has 1691 16110 1715 1716 18/1023/4 23/15 heavily [I] 1711
graph 121 31/14 1W14 26/22 3W 3017 33il7 33/17 33nS 42/14 4812 beck [I] 139nl
g ~ p b i e[ll 4616 49t216319 63/22 72/24741217313 82/16 height 111 1 W
g m t [4] 63/lI lfi1 l34112 189P21 101113103n 104n 10414 107120 107120 hdnoua 111 20-
greater (10) W7 3811 3IVS SSlg 62/23 7Y7 llWl124112 124114 131123 138122 142/19 beId (41 13@4178'17 1sWlO 204/8
IZH3 ZM4 10611321W 1- 1 U 5 15111915213 15914 160117 help [S] 22/15 113110 ll3nO 18%n2W4
greatest 111 11M4 1W f a 0 17Qp1170PI170120 171121 helped (I] 15U17
Green [lJ 21014 17314 173Ll7 l7#6 174n117612 176L3 Relpftl [l8] 13/16 24/18 51/22 5219 57/18
grew (11 W 1 3 17614 183122 iW14 193112 19923 19921 110125 11y7 111115 11212 112/13 llU14
G r h [I] W l l 200117 200118 20Y16 202122 2 W 4 21W12 116/25 I1917 16011116WZt 185121 19U3
Gross 131 11WlO llWI1119L3 234125 21W 2WlO W n2259 229B 202120
group (81 713 7l7 12n5238 4914 190/1l hasn't 11) 2Wl helping [l) 13/20
20t118 2W19 bat 1101 IUW13 14W5 2dN20 140rZt 14118 her 1201 W2165/23 6814 6#5 681868/8
groups 141 22/18 22123 2&25 l9W3 141110 141PZO 14U7 14Wg 14W4 681207W 1191l3 119114 12314 123/17
GSS (41 174n5 175f3198121 199ES Hstbaway [ l ] 29/14 13614 13615 136& 13616 1- 1U10
Gssl M 198/2119918 Hau g] 213 229i4 229/18 14/1120516
guarantee 111 66/13 have 12781 here pl] W15 291s 32/23 33lS 45122 4&3
guard [I J I04124 haven't (71 51/21 52/219Q13 174118208'7 58/23 85/10 1- 107/1107/2 11Wl1
gurtrdtd [21 104)24 10% 208116 22422 140/12 14U2 167fl8 168118 182/211M
guardianship 131 1W6 lOlU 2241 having I121 4/16 2711 2818 73/11 10241 2 W 22217 227112
guards [I] 104/9 117116 177fl9 188M 1W6 199n 222/15 hereby 111 22916
Gndjon [l] 57119 227115 herein p] 4116 177119
Gudjonson 1591 1618 1611116/14 1713 he (2021 IdnO 16/1516/16 16/17 16/17 high (91 W14 W 4 W 6 l a 0 157114
1WP24 19/2327n8 2911 51fl9 W6 W16 16/18 17120 17/21 W1S 24/16 24/18 26/14 157/15 I57115 15711721W
UUIIUI w Y ~ I I OY
~ W ~JW A W L ~ iI 4111a Impomnrly 131 1wdv lrlrls 14715 1bYI11
H 49t3 55114 169119
hlgher Ill] 1OnO31114 41116 41117 71A0 hundreds 121 9 a 8 121h impossible [I] 19919
147/12 213i23 213Pt4 21412 21413 21414 hurt 111 97/19 improper [l] 78/16
highly (31 !W 116/1160/3 husband 111 20516 lrnpu111lvi@[lj 19516
him 1381 176 l7B 3225 331242rU 47117 hybrid [I] 66/15 Inappropriate [I] 19mS
59/1 96/259711 99/21 1Ws lUl2l hypnotic [I] 1W10 inaudible 131 9319 If 7/2 11711
UW22 1256 1 m 2 141111 142P2 1W13 hypnotism 111 108/S inches [Z] 7319 73/10
1- 16434 164124 164124 I&# 1W14 hypnotized [I] lOSls incldent Ill 72/23
16- f 6Q114 168'20 17WZ1173118175fl2 hypochondriasib [3] 33/10 33/16 10m4 include [21] 7113 8/2319114 27119 33/12
1 W 22MEj 2 1 a U 216113 2 2 M 9 22244 h m b o n f t i [I] UflO WIO88/13 88/15 113/5 11mO 12W19
22U6 hypothesb IS] 82115 82/15 86n 88/15 12219 126n1 127114 1SY14 152112 152118
hlmself Pj 7h% 141124 fW 2 153Jl7 158/1187110 187n3
bis 1911 15% 19PZ4 245 26/17 26/L7 26/18 hwothttimllv 121 40n 22313 , included 1191 3413 4419 7518 83/17 90/25
26123 35/18 3614 4813 4814 4818 4914 49~22
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93/17 9-m 9ms IIM iml rsuzr
W15 5516 65/18 71/1 7114 71/22 71/22 15N4 1W10 1W1115719 lW20 196112
71/23 71/25 73/13 74/17 75/4 7518 87110 1al [I] 17W 198120
W610118llU14117124119~12W4120~ I*d[l5] 111317/1917~11~135/1141t25 iacIudea[2~2s1115vts
121112 121115 122114 t2U18 123n 12316 6013 641264110 64/12 127110 1W 137117 including [4] 32117 113110 lt0125 15615
f ~ 1 1 ~ 1 2 8 / 2 1 3 4 / 1 1 W l f 1 4 ~ l143J15198111
2 inconsiste~t (31 128112 14914 189t22
14315 1- 14311143111143114 14417 I'U 134) 1815 18/5 31L3 3319 3713 3713 3714 incorporate [11 lW2
149nZ 1W4 153110 16249 164l21 164122 4412 4412 W2 6W6 6W7 62n 635 6315 63/15 incorrect 131 52.122ZW2Q 22U23
1- 16515 165117 1W7 16&21 79121 89K 97R 10Wf3 126(4 f 37/15 137118 increase 121 19112 62P20
X W 2 17011 172n0 17ZZl173/5 17316 138112 13W12 140fl1149114 15W 15111% Incrcasod [lj 731
17318 17M8 17m2 190114 2W15 toll23 151n8 216/2 216119 221/19 223117 Increasing[l] 1W4
207fl211119 212/12 212/12 212123 212114 I'm (1411 5119 7/14 7/18 7/22 7t24 814 8113 increasingly [I] 106112
213/172141102151172161921611322316 9~13S17/15l~lZW1821&2zl~l22~3 iaculpatory(11 109'7
2241922920 22/24 23/16 2915 3012132JS 3212434/7 37J3 independence 111 37/15
hlstorlcal [l] 116119 42J8 42120 49245119 45/21 46/13 4916 Independent 131 14319 179113210/16
b & r k [I] IWlO 53/18 6W10 63n2 W 64/16 44/23 6512 indi 111 99/16
history 161 Q18 26/23 26/22 2&22 72413 66110 W10 67/19 68/16 69119 68/2569/10 lndlcate [6] 4116 W5 89/S 1WL6 127117
1MI 75n 8019 81/21W18WS 85123 8523 164110
hmm (41 207117 209D 213/10219122 851U 89/7 89/18 89124 9241 9213 92J4 9514 indicated 1231 14119211l3 21125 25113 47ff
ho [Zj 13615 13a5 95249714 9715 Wf 0 W 2 100112 10119 S7g 57/17 79l0 8417 99116 15115 1W14
Hotd 111 46l2 101/17 10y12 IOUZl 10324 10413 1W14 16MO 16218 162/23 163112 181124207114
holiday [6] 13614 136117 136/18 137D0 lOfd2110712 1071131WlO 108n9 109B 208/19 212124 21415 216!3 222f13
2W15 20515 111118113120 X17D 117B 117113 1 I 7 m indicates 15) 24l1591n 137122 173/4209/10
home 111 65/15 1 1 ~ 1 5 l l ~ l l 1 9 / 1 l t o ~ l ~ l l z 3indlcation[l~26/U
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homicide (41 11116 14116 148% 21V2 125135 130124 1MD4 135117 135fl9 13813 indicative 131 3Wl1 fOln 163Jl3
HON [ll Znl 14111 14U5 14U6 141118 142416 143112 indirectly [I] lUlO
bonest [l] 33113 144119 146/24 147118 1W8 1SO/P lSUt indkldual[32) 1911l2#4 24/20 31/8 3Wl
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honmtly 79t24 1~ 1541tl 15618 157113 16718 17wio 4017 50114 5212554117 a 0 73112 nnl
Honor [21 14WO221# 171114 17411517412.3 17Qrl8 182l21 1836 82116 9616 9618 96110 98/25 10414 129/12
hoped 111 181/25 19312 19m5 19413 1961f 2- 2W14 130116 15413 189118lSan 2W19 2 0 W
hopeful [lj 2W16 208125 209118 210118 210118 215115 216112 205113 217117 219n 220114 220115 221/6
Hospital [I] 194118 21Wr15 21914 219115 219119 22W16 22W6 221m
haspitatab [ l ] 1-5 2231 224R 224/IS Individual's p ] 9/15 8211
hostlle [2] 1 W 7 104/24 I've (231 5114 5/17 711 1On lyZ 13/13 14/16 individuals [24] 14/12 23Pf 2417 29/18 31119
hotel [I] 1M 1Y161Qr716S72U72318381538/61W19 3516M537/lf37Pt443~44/19W17
hour (111 5315 110119 127120 f2W4 12814 179/1519Y420Wrl21015211110 22015 54/25 7117 72/12 84/23W 4 106111 119/t0
12W 12#14 131/7 170B 1 7 5m 206B 220/11222/18 120124 IN17 14921 I46118 218116
hours 191 132 W13 Wt6 llWl8 llOlZO i e 111 7YP indulgence [ll 13112
127121U8n5 128115 168n8 Iceland 141 16/16 134E110 13511f 200EX5 industrial [lj 9/14
houn M 65/20 lZW10 121110 121122 idea (11 8716 ~nnatsd11) 1011s
124422 ldentidcation 121 Wl2 15m2 i n f l i i (11 21114
Low 185) 1fWllW l a 1 9 14/25 15/115/4 identify [2] 42n1992 influence [l] ll6fS
15/14 2W6 30/7 W16 210 21(7 21m 23/22 IEP 12) 11331117l24 influrued 131 11U1 11617 119118
30/16 3QIZO 3012431R 37121 4Q4 42/22 IItinois (21 8/l37/6 Informal [I] 227/20
4518 48/24 48124 M1112 60/25 W17W illness [Z] 13#6 lW2l informally 111 134122
72/11 80120~ 8 0 n l 8 1 1 84115 83/16 immediabe PI 13516 139/16201120 Information 1641 8/24 13/1626PI 27/6 3415
85116 87ff W22 92114 95/24 9716 97/10 immediately (31 5.14 136122 15614 55124 57116 6219 69f4 741%7rU19 79lZ 8W17
10315110116 ilOL40 11917 119/8 119/11 impact 40111 7U15 75/21 7322 llOPZ1 997 106115 lOQf20104122 104125 1037
12718 13922 138118 1- 141/20 14W4 124125 164111 1W16 1I916 125/4 1 3 m 132121 133115
142114 14W15 1W5 145/11145111145121 impacted 111 1M 14017 140110 140117 145n3 1 M 2 150112
145n2 1W4 15417 15/23 158120 impairment 121 26/16 f 24/19 15812 175124 17614 181112 181119 1-
164/11168111169117 172114 17QPt3 17812 impermissible It]126121 127113 182113 l82#0 l W 5 183121 - 1WlI
178/U181/15 181116 184114 185/25 194111 implied 11) 21Qr17 187111 187119 189123 19Y21198/19 199M
194113194/14 194114 197116 220/3 22LW7 importance 111 18421 2W13 20W20 206f22 211112 211118 21uL1
224n4 imporCant129I 13Y13n417/12I&Q19)8 212118212121212/222131222IB22Yll
How's 11) 41111 261326)526/527fl27/113317341939121 222121222125223iS
however 151 29127713 10113 169111196112 39/24 491%5711 6312W10 821238312 B R initial [4] 27/20 27/20 1 W 16U4
hub [I] 223/18 83& 83/129U6 11% 11714 132118 184124 initially 141 155123 161/l5 202/15 202120
Human 14) 6/23 17311020Sn4 2091I1 2W1 injuries [I] 21114
1
injury 111 22/14
input (21 119113 f 19/14
inquiry [l] 12#4 intendewer 11) 16211
instance [I51 l0/2 lO/24 1% l9n l9m interviewing 12) 847 103122
27tZ2 28/12 30/4 3119 34/22 dQi3W l 4 66f3 intewiem [I] 24/7
71PZ -2 intoxication 111 13W6
instances 14) 57ft IOU7 11322 llU23 introdudng [I] 167113
instead 161 34/12 8325 91f9 10545 14411 introversion 31/13 35/12 35/13 35118
206111 94/794/994/33.
Institute 161 615 616 16/19 17917 180/18
200116
institution 12) 2818 1Wl
insthutions 11) 158/13
instructed (1) 3215
iastrudion (11 227120
inrtruetIoas (31 227B 227i10 22Wl investifation 11J 133/10
instrument 1211 37119 89/15 90116 W17 involved 1201 619 10n lOIj 12/9 15/16
93/14 188110 MUl3 1 m O 192fl3193i9 610 98n5 14611314716 149D 178114
193123193124 194110 194/13 1Wf4 200fi0 179117 1811j 18tn6 1901621015 211
2OW23 2Oln Nlt4 20119 203118
Instrumental 111 29/22
instruments 13) 1- 18916 199n 13WT 13215 166/13 173114
inbllectaal(91 18/14 19/1441B 4#6 49121
7Y12 I12117 W6 1864
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intellectually 4915
in~Uigence140) 27125 28M 40r)ZO 40D3
4112 4116 41121 4217 43/10 44ll0 45/5 46/23
46l25 4911 49l3 49f24 8Y10 81/12 W 5
W 86B3 87115 183fI4 18320 18411
184nf 18M3 1841325 185/18 1 8 W 185123
18QP1-18614 186/13206119 212P25 2134 irrelwant [ZJan4 W18 31f3 41122 4324 43/13 4414 4325 46/10
21316 213B 213113 Irrespective [l] 1 M 47113 6 W l W 649 74125 7615 76/11 76115
intend p] 16W15 17mt is [4W] 7 9 M 10711111114 111125 13111 13114
intended 131 18911 193/16 19316
intent [I] 1W17
intentionally 11] 17117
inter (21 25/5 222/16
interect 121 36/12 36/13
Interested [I] 174123
Interfere (I] lOQn
ioternakd [l] 13OL3
internet [q S7nS f00n3 2 W t 219120
21935 ZW16
internship (11 5E8
interpersonal (11 1Ml
Interpose 17l 171162W19 24/14 43/21 60H 1731 17412219n 219117 jury 1631 1149/18 10123 10125 2OnO 21110
64/10 153/8 issues (61 95/3 1 0 H 124117 137119 167/23 38/14 4118 64/12 74l4 7911 79111 79A7 %018
interned [I] 81/3 16912 80119 W10 86/1692H 9211 92/12
Inkrpoahg (I] 17/17 it I4711 94112 97/10 98/11 109211 W 5 107/1
interpret 15) 93/193/10 93/11 21WI6 22013 It's (1721 6/15 815 9/13 10/4 10D3 10/U 11013 110117 11118 1Ill21 11219 128118
interpretstion ill] 12115 93/13 152117 llD5 12114 13110 13/10 13R5 14113 15116 f33n 13521 13&21141/15 141n3 14316
1 W 5 160/4 174116 186121217114 21813 15118 15/19 16/8 1711ZWll20/252Xll 14312414415 149115 150118 16719 167110
21819 218/15 21/23W1123/11231Lt23/1326/52~ 17~171124177/4177P717%15180PL3
interpreted 141 32116 85/20 15321f 55122 26/15 2#6 27/11 29D 29/l0 3016 3114 31117 181115 186115 18711 194111 20218 226'15
interpreting 121 42/17 217/25 3#4 32l4 3215 33117 34115 M 39121 3
9m 227B 227110 227116 2 2 7 N 227122 227125
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m uat [S] 19/20941U 12611215123 218110 107112 107114 llOn llY12 112/13 113/4 object 151 43/14 79/18 144114 144116 199119
my 1127 423 9 6 6/11 6/13 6/19 711 7/13 113113113116 IXS115 116/L3116n5 llQrU objecting [I] I7El
8n2 918 1UllU12 1U16 12/16 1Xl2 13112 118112 118114 118118 ll&Ql 119110 I19119 objection 1231 17116 2W19 24/2324/15
1SB 1511721124 2WlO W S 23/23 Z m O 12m31 M 6 12719 134119 I3716 42/10 43121 d4B 4!52S 6012 64/10 1W
27113 W 38t5 4U23 4245 4319 4 W 139124 14217 14320 15lA 151119 ISY20 138211 1 M 0 15Y19 1538 l a 5 16711
46D4 W 56/15 56/25 576 57117 69R 152/35 156121 157/7 159/20 162416 163/10 1676 20015 21324 22118 22311122922
7511175120 75/23 76/24 77/21 W l 4 78/14 163110 16414 167/2 16716 171116 171120 objectkinable (11 19615
78/16 WlO 81113 %UZ W19 W169V15 1742 176117 18% f861W 186/25 187& objections (31 81D 8116 1 0 a 2
9Y193119511096/12 W l 3 96/13 9W2 9815 1911519643 199/52038 20319 203D objective 1161 29125 38f25 ION f 19/22
1026 IOU14 103115 104PI l M S lWl 2- 207/212WtU W12W3n 2W4 1 M lSSn lSglP 1WlO 15Wr12 158/24
10712 108111 l W l l I09112 t l W 2 11W 208125210/3 212/17 216/6 21#11216/13 159D 159/11159/14 159/18 160n lW16
120nf 12413 12413 12644 1261U UlL3 216/16 217n6 21?k% 21914 219B 219112 objectively (11 90n
1318 1311191WI5 I37n 145111Wf 219115 22015 22011 220/11221fi3 2231114 obserwtlon &] 10215 1-
147124 1- 15318 153/13 lSdg 154/10 22318 223113 223fl9 22519 226n 2 2 a 8 observations (61 26/12 50111 W12 101112
1- 1W5 156124 157t22 159112 159t23 22620 226n1227/3227119 153111154119
159124 16W 167/22 17I)nO 170/11171!L1 nods [2] 65/126W7 observe (2) 10414 1532
172)9 173123 17616 lW19 19113 193125 non (21 1914 2MEJ observed (51 7W1 101122 102110 102/18
19Qg196123 1V/3 1991182W112W23 non-forensic 111 1914 fWl1
201LU 207Pl2#/5 210111 212118 213A non-peer 111 24W9 obtain [I21 2616 32EJ38/10 38/13 4Y16
21314 21H14 217D 22#22 222/10 222!21 noncllnieal [I] 1W18 S 1 4 57/237912 8412 108nO 1- 16111
223m 229B 229113 none 131 l a 5 173n2173113 obtained 1131 515 2716 1515 9W13 1024
myself M 17451 M 8 1W12I2422 nonverbal (31 184n 1 W 184/19 102/16 131r;13 13261 158/14 158rU) 111416
216tY M O 22517 norm 121 W 3921 202/13 tOZ/f 4
I
r u l t a position (13) 8D.3 8814 1 f 6120 17211 17319
personality (27 18/11 18/1619/162 W 0 l m 0 17&'23 17911 17916 1 M 179D
par#cular-. (111 148/10148119 156122 291829112 311183 7 m W l 7 8718 9W59016 20817209121
167m 186118 189113 l90/4 19W15 199Jl5 91/139224) 9313 94/149811398/W 99/11 posiihns I21 5/24248lS
203/18 221122 99112 101114 15311 159122188/17 IW19 positive [I]2W16
particularly (21 33/11193J17 18913W 9 possess [2]19112 57/15
parts 121 12Y16 12423 personrmNy [8]f3n9 101122 102110 102118 possibility Ill l84B
pass 111 176B 103123 lW212221J 2257 possible 131 26/11 66/12107n1
pudng 11) 20313 pe~uaslon(11 109114 possibly 131 39/17172t25 17316
passlvt 181 19i173W 3811 38/1939/839114 pertaining [7]46/2249ll61110 196113 potential [l]54/16
50116 99121 196116 21Srt4219n potentially [I] 19ff
pnssivlly [3) XU9 8911189t17 pertaim (11 199116 pound 12) 1 6 m 163/10
passport 11) 136f8 pertinent [Sj 15715 157110 157fI4 1SJ119 pounds (21 13616 138f14
past [lo] 6/258124 91410118 14l22 21/14 157m practice (161 6(39 7n 21a4 Wf7 56123
159117 182118 187m 210120 peestmlstlc 111 10214 1 7 W 178114 179114 179117210n 215l3
paUern (I) 190115 PF 123) 3715 37fi 39/1739/2184/15894 218f2122115221/14221116 221EU)
patterns 111 1916 856 85/1488/1093/24)152/10 154121 practicing [21 7714 21m
Patty (11 1 W I O 154122 188112 18911 189B 191/20ZlZnl practitioner (11 200117
pause [I] 68113 2145 214il4 2 1 W 215117 21922 praising [I]63/15
pear [I]86/t0 Ph.D [21 12116 173l4 precede 11) 154/11
peer 171 f v22 lW5 1/8 12/182W118UNW9 phenomenon (21 66M l0a2 precisely 13) 819 44/23 134114
2W17 phenomenons (11 6614 predict 131 78/18Is415 19211
peer-related (11 12118 phobic 121 2714 100119 predicting (11 1 M
peen (11 19W4 phone (21 716 25/17 prediction [l] 7i92
penell [l] 19&0 phonetic (11 9W15 predisposed (I]10511
p p t e (443920 36/1541/154913 55/14 photocofl [I]2m22 predisposition Ill 1 0 S 3
10M 10017 10(W8 100113 100122 1MArtQ phrase 11) 1701 preeminent 121 125/16126111
I W 10111 11642 1210 12915 130!20 phrased 131 7543 12m7 191d2 prelhiaary [ll J9619
14618 146B 14715 147110 147/20 1480 pbpical 33n2 lOWl 126~21127/l5 premise [I] 135f4
1W51 W 187110 187112 188/24 189/25 13313 133n 1331P preparation [I]23125
1 M 190119 190n11993 19#5 19814 pbplcally [lf104118 prepare 11) 227/8
202118 20U19 205119 218/1821U18 218120 pick [I]8713 prepared 17) 24/10 1#5 169116 170A
p p l e q s121 131182 0 M picked [I] 198/20 17511422918
per [6]715 715 26/23 31/1134/1718816 picking 121 87/24 W1 prtparen (2136fM 36125
pert [I]15711 pleturc~[2j 16/31 16'4 prerequisite 11] 202~24
perceive [i]1291tl pieces (1J 175% prescript [I) 31117
perceived (31 229113 129fi4211brf9 pinned 131 12WlO 121110 1W22 preaence (21 60118 64/12
percent (21 1517 1518 p h 141 109A 109/11109/l2109/14 present I91 6,f 8 224 344 56/1062110 78)23
ptrcenhge (51 1 M S 1513 5%n6 W5 14517 place 161 296 33US 119119 12-4/11124114 78123 88/2 1 W6
percentile 1201 34/15W17 34/183Y18 36l4 159125 presentation M 203/5 3715
3W3 4%r23 4818 481P 4W22 4Wr13 49/17 placed (3) 8118 1 m 4 200/25 ptestntathns 141 546 1m514/6 237
49/1954M 54124 55/1282Q.3 156118 1 W PLAINTlFF (11 114 presented 17) 13/24)14185204 5311 7919
15711 player (11 190114 llU24 169i2
perfect [I] 91/15 ple [I] 19/18 pressure 113) 53111 5#6 55B St59
perform (91 2ShS 27B 3321 49/34 51115 p l e a [31]41'4 4/184/184 n L 19/1935/11 66120 69W 127i7 143B 143/1014418 1-
57/1074/168113 W 1 7 4Ln465/185/2186/24 9511597/1197/22 164414
performance 12) 83/11 19914 10SIUl llU7 11# l4WlO 149tI 1W16 pressures (11 16320
performed 1221 2012 2017 29143W2S 38/23 168113 176/13177/17lmfil Inn1 178n Presumably [I]7W
4OB 40116 401194915 4912354t155117 1SW5 187/1187/4201111 20219 203fl9 presupposes 121 I40lf6 LW13
56114 56/22577 57113 75/151510 1916 pleaaure 111 76/20 p ~ [ 2 sa/238lnl
]
16U21 18316 219120 plural [l]Sin0 prevented 111 84/10
performlug p] 321950/8 6UP plus [lJ58/21 previous [I] 13U15
perhapa 191 17126 133120 150n 169118 point 1281 61222111 22113 25/16331942/25 previously [bj 14/19 SOR 691474/1015915
1 W 6 18318 1WI9 2111721713 49/2251123 53/1557/2269f17W677116 172t17
period 141 106'13 180/14181122 204129 96/24 f0011S 1W16 137il8 139Pt 140121 pride 111 77/17
periods [l]63'9 14115 164/17164119 171123 Im18177110 primarily 17) MI [Kt1 173/7 179n1 184L
p ~ mp nl 174114211122 193fio20211 2131 1841321~
pcrmltted 111 167m pointed [7j 73/16 162122 18Y7 184117 primary [I]197/16
permitting[LJIW4 189120 21W5 22419 princlplw [I]77/8
person (661 1/244/101716 18110 18n2 pointer 111 32122 printad 121 lZdll218il3
19/162013201'9 27123 27/24 23IS 3W13 points P]77/20173/U 18M8 printout (21 85/25Z89ff
33/17 3QIp 3915SOPl2 5111 5114 5 m 5Y1 police 1141 58/22a 1 8 601206~1257211 prior [13]27B 27nI 3 W 6112 8Q/4 164114
52111 52/1753nlS5/11W156E24 6216 1 W 1W14 1W112119 1 W 126/20 17520 180/21 1 99m 200111 MY3 211117
62121 67/21 7W14 7Y26 93/1493B 1041314 127113 147a 2041% 222416
1W19 12%21126/jl33113 135/11142/19 polite 131 99f21103n33 103116 private 121 6/19179/17
I4314 146125 I48/16 157D5 260117 I6416 poor 141 W 1 7 foils 1 0 ~ 10ln0
9 pro (J]93/10
187113 189123 lW7 1 M 3 19111 191/23 popularly [l] 183/21 probabilistic 111 19rPt2
194223 19Y17 19IIPf 2fWS204/21Ml population [tl 29/19 14813 probsbly 1191 13/115/7 1518 28/1332/14
2 1 2 1~7 ~ 2 4 1 7 21~23
~ 22117~ l n 0 ~omth111 94122 3W15 4W1459118 6411391/4 105119 f 16/20
221i22 225/9 porch [2]6511466/23 tlIVS 1WlO 1W16 209n5 215111 215/13
person's [Ill 3111832J2331184423 5915 portion 161 1W0 4616 97n9 136n1136/23 215/19
60P22 6Y8 1W10 18716 2 W 3 22514 18325 probation (41 6122 10117 1413141P
penomal [6) 13/1518/2428/9 10415 104/15 portions 111 1- probative 121 !W7 58/14
mrl SYll8 4U21 2 1916
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rebuttal., p) 22649 2W25
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471247fi6 48125 4916 49112
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represent [I] 29118
reprwntation 11) I76/19
rebutting 111 172121 76/2 16015 161121163123 210115 21315 representative 111 29d7
reall [36] 100 19/202W17 2115 25,Q 30124 219R 222/14 request 121 lO/l6 lsrp
47/153/33 W17 591116319 63/13 63/23 Register ll] 1M requested [21 IW6 20Y17
96Q4 97/3 116/6 11- 117/1112Ui6 1396 registered [l] 179/13 required 12) 131112243
1397 13517 135117139/8 139116 I39117 regular 111 116118 requirements 11j 235/7
148118151116 lSSil4 16913 165113 172.122 rrhabllicatioa (11 173/11 research I321 121t0 13A116/2037/24 3W4
20U20 21217 21411 214122 Reid (11 213tI5 3W6 56/15 5914 601216Y5 72127W3 7U5
recalling [l] I46122 rtlnformd [l]75/23 72/16 7V16 79t2 10317 10815 15&3 1W3
rscalh [l) 2W13 reJecting[I ] tW4 158112 1511121 1nn m i 7 219120 222114
remtI11 111119 relate (1) 30B 22216 22314 2 W 9 W119 22423 2 2 5 n O
receive (131 121%56/30 1W6 15646 156115 related 1141 7111 12/13 12/18 15/1815/19 .wearebed 12) 2 9 M 20f7
156(38 l8lb 1W13201B 211112 217114 3311 33/24 39/10 SM154!10 10016 12W6 resigned [I] 8/22
2tW13 22520 14946 157124 -mist 121 14325 14414
received I22l 516 48/10 5411 114/10 12Y4 relates 141 123111128111224111 22516 +eslsted15) 11U18 11mS 16VS t6llI1
178J718111% l a 4 19114 198/14 1W19 relatlng 11] 71/35 161/15
200t8 200/15 200/24 24512 211122 2 I l m relntion [I] 51/15 -&istive (1 147123
21W2 21215 212112 212115 22614 relationship 121 18218202122 -esp8cC[I] 216/1S
receiving [41 63123l a 3 20%Tt0212117 relationshlps [I] 202113 uapected 131 30/621- 318flS
recent (I] 21015 relatively 121 834 204/13 xspectIvely [I] 29115
recently 15) 8119 8n114114 161611714 relaxed [I1 5911 .espon [I] 16%
recess [SJ 76/12 1 W 7 lnJ2 2WI3 226114 relevance 111 34n =pond 131 26/17 W l 8 13MO
recognim [l] 8917 relevant [IS] 121111 121114 121117 121119 '~ponded[ll 181/16
recognid 1101 109/17 1W13 130118 12112312&% 123110 123l13 123114 123115 mponding (2) 5618 2W21
I68/22171/19 174/3 LIW124 18116 1Wl7 123l17 154191741'9 1892 196114 wsspoads (31 14318 143/l0 143/11
2244 relinbilii [ q 10319106rl7 1- 12U2 wponse (131 52n8 52/19 65118 67/191122
recollsctba (41 12W l a 1 3 170111172/10 2 a 3 144l7 161fZ4 164i14 l W l 5 16W I
m O
recommend 12) 6213 190119 "elieble141 ZdS10 32PI I W 4 158114 ZW3 22515
recommended @I !%j2394/19 rllably [l] 4112 .rsponses [I01 161455/15 7018 92/24 144l7
recommends [I] 19/23 relied [I] 1711 152112 f 52/19 15314 15612 19917
reconcile [I] 103E religious p) 195122 responsibility (21 7W12 33232
Reconvened 151 4/176/13 150118 l77R reluctant [I 148111 rerponslve [I) 103113
226/15 rely [2) 35/14 160/16 rest [2] 85%150112
record Ill] 4119 64115 96/22 11415 137117 relying 131 gUs 119113 119/14 restate [I) 73114
1.19119 i67n l n / l t ~nnz 227123 am remains (21 IW15 170116 reslating 111 134/21
recorded (31 1-5 199n 205/1 remember 1231 611118 811589/12 10713 t't.&d 111 177/9
records 1291 2#10 24/10 2Y14 4813 7 U 1037 IMlP lWn3 112n2 11311 115/11 resting 121 235123 221324
74/34 7#175/12 75/21 11WlO 11M7 12217 1- 1232 123f3 1 W 6 139D result (I01 78/11 lOU16 117/19 126120
113/19 1IN0 114/10 114113 114118 1141U 14921 145n2 14612 14- 16W 2045 127112 127118 158113 17818 lgZn0 185123
115123 115125 11&4 116112 162L3 16U7 20511 1 multing (1) 54124
1631821218 21210 212125 213/12 213/l7 remembered [I] 20QP24 mesulta 160)2 7 M 3214 32/10 3W12 32/13
woss (3) 3R 1661116QtZ remembers (1) 204/2I 34/12 38/10 38/20 39/12 4194M 4311
Recross-Examination 3/7 1 W remind (11 149115 42J17 42222 44/10 48/17 49/l49/12 5WZ
recruit fl) 1W3 remave (21 1W14 1m1 ~SW11521354115512278178SB8518
red 15) 140115 14W19 140121 141R 14119 render Ill] 3U68211f llllZ 111110 l l I / l l
85/10 85/14Wl89/14 89118 9011092113
redirect P] 3f6 150%12225115 llV23 112/11119/18 16916 17W19 17M 9916 102/8 102116 IOU21 1W4 1W19
rcduw [I] 108118 rendered 161 7Y4 94/15 10014 llU16 155/tl156110 159119 lW21163/8 169nS
refer (21 9714 216130 113/18 1691% 1 m 4 18414 185113 1W16 189/5 189m
referee 11) 18WI3 vndtring (11 199/16 19l/l7194116 202/10 202113 202/16 214110
reference W23 187P23218/2 Renew [ I ] 4mS 217115 218117
referenced 121 1812 219/25 vpeat 15) Sf2 14310 14911 20919 223115 waurnb 121 #10 18715
mferencss 111 Wl %peatcd121 13#211M3 vtnined (3) 77124 96114 96/14
referencing(11 8/15 pep&edly 121 164/1620U21 xtardation 111 2812
refer4 916 77/11 945 9913 149122 -epeating111 218121 rtardud [ZJ2W6 2M2
16314 218119 %pbrn# [6] 1W4 2111 60P7 60PI 7519 llW3 etractlon [I j 62125
rplying [ll 1WS h r n s [I] 214112
.eport 1751 W10 26/24 M I 75120 84115 -wert(11 207/6
refen 111 SPI~O 85/20 8935 8Qr3W1187tY 88/5 8819 88114 wiaw 1391 IzJS 1&23 a t24 25/10 3012
reflect (31 4213 148B 213112 w16m l 8 9 f i 8913 89/16 9 ~ 1 91n
4 371243#8 57/17 70119 7319 74/1975112
reflectad PI 75/12 193ll3213/tz 9512399t7 99#4 101ll610Y18 10218 10311 75114 llWO I1012 116% 122117 1280
reflecting [lj 212/LS tlmi 1 1 ~ 1Isr m s 11jn 1136 i17m 157122 I59112 1- lnUl17922 lnVl5
d B c b (11 46# 120/20 120121 12416 1247 15lltO 151114 181119 1W19 18312 184)14 lW16 UnB
refresh 111 1 2 m 151115 X52n 152/5 IWIO 25212.3 1536 20819 2 0 W 2 l W 7 211113 211/17 211121
refused 111 22U6 153119 1546 154# 1 W O 154111 154114 21213 239# 227m
1W4 16115 18323 189/10 189/13189nI reviewed 1221 1It22 f 246 24tY 25th 25/13
1911'719Y14 191f1619V20 192/2 193/5 384 61/21 61/22 63118 7517 75/37 llW
regarding 1221 1U18 134 14/10 14/15 18n4 19315 199)2 201114 206/18 206123 20711 11M8 llSll8 119124 1W4 144b 1a 4
2213U14 24& 24/11 75/18 8W 8614 9ZnO 212I1121fn3 214113 2 1 a 9 21W13 222/10 19Ull219152Wn 224t22
iws IWI ltm 1 ~ 1 IWS 1 1 6 ~ 3 reported [SfY3 185114 1851162 0 M 22916 reviewing Iq 2 M 5 114112 l2UW 12316
18111219811522112 reporter (51 U4 4V10 95/15 2BB 229118 163/7170110W 1 7
raprds [34J 2114 28/17 28123 32129 3318 reports (51 1Wn2 mi19 169114 16916 revlews [l] 12/16
I W - Y ~ Z # ~ L U ~ ~ J ~ U ~ I W A I ~ a-7
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f 36/11 13814 13814 1 W 6 141118 171/20 seated 141 4/I8 167112 17718 177121
r w k d 131 29116 4@25 1W6 173/I8 173119 1 7 a 18917 19019 191r2 second [lo] 4612 53rU 129111 129123
rcvbing Il] 711/24 191110201B 204114 20Y3 21013 22UW 141116 14111714IP1519UflL96162U314
right 11231 12iZ3 19/2129fi 3116 431 46115 2 m 4 stcondly 141 30/7 12711 lSZIl8 I W 3
son5714 44/34 65/17 68119 68/24 77112 saylnl[13] lln 1414 4311 43/15 50n2 53112 seconds [S]175/17201121 204124 20514
79% 8Qn9 8111881t21 W 2 2 83Jf 83ff 5 7#5 97112 133111 143112 189m22311 20M
85/3 85/11 8612 8714 89/23 PO/S 92/10 9Ufl 224118 secreary tl] 217122
9316 93/22 94/12 96/15 97Pt W 98124 9915 rays (241 43117 45/22 65/17 67t2169114 section [2] 29118 2044
99115 1W1 lOWlO 100/11100/18 10002 69/24 87112 87/1397n3 101116 101f18 secure [I] 210)21
1lMW lOQPt5IOU11 1033 103/ll103/14 1W12 113113133113 138W 1W13 I39115 security 91 173/l2203/25
10325lOSn 1W lW15 l W 109/11 140n9 140/20 141110 1W15 190/24201120 we 1331 31110 32d20 39/539123 5317 64f7
11017 113122 113123114n 114211132 2W14 692 68121 6922 &1/Q 8618 98/9 10314 1OS/2
11516 116/22 116123119B 119115119123 scale j86] 1713 19t2529/l31/l13Y1231115 1Wl14 11W17 11On8 115125 1 4 m 14615
12320 12719 128/5 12919 129lZD 13115 3U17 3913 35!22 3Sn5 Wl36f6 3714 158116 162117 168/14 189n 193110 19JI13
131112 131118 1W13 134/15 I37115 13919 38/15 38/16 38/17 38/18 d&20 41B 4l/23 20519 2Wf9 20&2 2W12 209112 22#8
139110 139m 139123 14011 140/14 141/15 4U742/15 4U15 42/23 431 43ff 5 a 4 497 227125
141116 141M 145116146'10 14m7 149113 451% 45n6 4#19 471%47/14 47/18 47120 seeing (31 13/3 124122 124123
149lZ0 1W14 lSOn5 15112316316 166/18 47/22 4912 491252/16 5Wt4 54t2 56112 seek [I] 2 W
166i2116714 16711117914 176120 177117 56/1157119 6VZ5 6915 8h9 81114 81D4 seem 141 115nO2W5 7061721W6
186111 18QPL2 19218 1W10 199P720314 8311587114 87118 93n5 94Q plus 9416 seemed [S] W 4 W4 1MM 1%t2 W6
20315 205124 206113 2OW5 209115 21W13 94/30 94/11 99fl9916 991P 99\10 102124 seems 181 21116 78JS 10W4 lW15 201113
211/15 225118 BQr7226112 22711 104117 lW6 142/1158116My22 164n 2W10 W 1 6 2Q5f6
22714 227/13 228/8 183114 18304 1W1 1 8 M 1W 18922 seen [lll W18 4W5 50139 173)25 174118
rights (11 13/18 ISSn5198/619W131Wl6200~~fl 174/191~f819115193n199~2l~O
rlse ( I ] 171fS 203m 206/21213/6 22CW4 224Rl %!regate 4614
risk Il] 143119 scaled [I] 8Y5 segue 111 91/15
road [li 65/19 scales 1501 lUl2 18/243012 M 32n32114 self 131 11/17 11117 194131
robbed 111 1 N 6 32115 332 35115 36119 36/233W 51119 self-administered [I) 1-1
ROBERT 161 3L3 4/14 4/15 4/2329/23 19414 51/20 52nlW4 9Ul2 92113 93n 93ll6 self-pubtished [I] 1YI7
Rock 121 6115 9/3 9 N 8 95/11 95/19 95/21 95tt4 98117 1WU7 semantic (31 102232514611 147121
ROCW [I] sn2 1W11156112 15714 M7/8157/16 157117 seminalas(41 5116 12125 2216 57/16
room [XI 5911 157122 15811117751718613 X94B 194114 send [6] 85/18 13715 1 5 W 156n 217113
Rorschach t2] 12/14 173/22 197116197119 197119197120197/20 197122 21M
roughly p] 1W14 35/19 197123 197)712419W1lW3 217120 senmtlonal 111 12W5
routinely [Z] 1W1521616 seared (21 1W17 125n senst [l] 170%
RPR 121 Zn 229/18 scene (11 532 sent (51 95110 I W 3 1W 168117 214110
rule (2) 4412 167M Schoenenberger [3] f 1619 118/11119/3 asntence (31 6Y189B 135121
r u b 16) V/37715 77fl77ll5 77/22 W17 Schoenenberger-Gross [21 I l # l ~f 190 sentencing [I] UK
ruling 111 4443 scholarly P] 18W2 208/4 2 1 W separate [3] 35/13 I06n IPS0
run [Zl 7/3 Wn scbool144] 5/9 5/13 2 M 0 25/14 27/148n September (11 124D
running [If 6119 65/1573l10 7511 75119 l l W 11317 I13119 September 29 111 12.49
p n s 111 1418 .. 113m 1 Xm4 11412 11415 114113 1 1 W sequence [l] 8711
S 11514 115123 116B llQlP116l16 116/17 series 1101 56113 9217 155122 11W 12U3
sad (11 9 9 ~ 1
. 11719 117115 1lWl0 118121 121/8 12411 136115 18319201117 204120 217117
16ZD 16WS 178125 179131W17 185119 serious [6] BY12 19543 195/5 195/520311
mdnw (11 101R X961172111821~213t22131122f3/17 Wl
safety [I J f 04115 213123 seriously 111 13/19
said 1591 5123 39n14Ul4 433 5215 56/24 schools (11 16U13 seriousness p] 70/12
63/14 66/10 8U3 82/4 8 W 84/24 84Q4 SEien~es121 5/10 911 served [2] 187fiS18FZ
97114 97/23 97/24 9811 99/17 lOOnl IOU23 score 1481 33/2434/14 W4 W6 3917 41/16 servlce (31 180n 214111 21816
103112 1121251W17 119m 121119 41/17 41/17 4215 43/11 4319 45/20 4711 services (101 6/4 a 1 W 173110
121fiQ I 2 m 12716 13118 134%135/10 4711 48/10 49/15 49/16 W 5.47 54/24 181111 189116 2OlW 209n2 218n
137120 158n5 14119 14217 342J21144H1 5 9 9 55111 55112 35/13 81110 81/16 83117 swlona [2] 7D 13/21
145115 153122 16118 16517 167fl9 ld8/5 8716 95/22 9925 M 8 1391l2 139117 set iq 4/11 40116 44125 5419 1259 20%2
lmlo l m l 2 17m 18213 lm 1- 141/21155117 156136 156120 156125 158115 U7/8
I N 6 203/8 203114 208112 21925 219/39 184/6 I8323 186B l8UllI86/lR 186/30 sets (11 19YU
219rU 2WI8 229113 2031 213/4 213fl3 setting [A 7814 114n 12114 195117 1-
sake (21 B6hQ 105111 scored [MI31/11 3420 3423 35L218114 19Qr172W17
mme (321 211929n13916 4311 42115 85117 85118 8919 m94113 94/19 9%) sefflngs [I] 1 m
33118 St24 57110 64/17 6412167/3 6912 96/1w 1 2 139119 139m 139n4 14011 s e e n 131 69113 am 17918
10514 111n 116)24 121117 12421 U9/4 f42/4 14zif 4 14215 14m7 14B18 142122 seventy 121 t38n2 175125
141n 153/3 158114 158/15 166123 17011 1 W 194114 195/11197/1319812217117 seventyme 11) 17WS
184119202M 20713 20714 N9n4 ~corts(311 31115 3314 W 4 39114 4213 several (101 6114 98117 ll2#2 12012 1W4
sample 11) 24212 45118 8920 93ff 93flWll94B l18/19 12U6 125S13 181110187fl4 209l3
sanction [I] 1- 118125 15615 1W 1W22 157fl5 157115 sex [lo] #I #1 1la8 1 415 22118 22!23
sanctioned [l] lrUZ 157117 157123 158114158/14 158117 184110 2315 23/15 12&3 197B
satisfactory Ill 19713 18649 19W5 21W25 213n0 214111 217119 sexual [ I ] 14/16
satisfied 111 176fl8 217B3 sexually [l] 126/2
saw [6] 16136MS 101/f 1 12W 121/f0 scoring 151 13Y1 139111185117 189116 sh (11 157nt
121116 21U1 shall ill 60119
say 1401 11/3 1113 15/15lWZ.4 31/24 33114 screaming [2] l2yll124n4 sharp [I] 77116
47/17 50114 912152/9 732.3 78n 9#8 921'9 screen [6] 32/8 3WZ14f15 48114 53/25 s barpen [I] 42/25
rS
DCflGg1J wo supervmor (11 6417
.sub 1211 83/17 8411 84/11 109117 109120 supplemental 111 3315
sfand... 121 2201232253 109l22 109123llWI 1691P 170/14 171/13 supplementary111 941%
standard [Ill 82/24 1fW19 118n4 183n0 17211 17W13 174125183125 1Wt2 184/11 support [51 8W3 123/14 1- 14914
t87/9 218nl22U5 221114 22U16 221/I9 184112 184115lWl8 197t22 211124
223l4 S U ~ S C P ~[lj
M 197/22 supported (4 82/16
standardid [2] 144n 2 W Sub-special [I J f 09n0 suppose 141 39/17 50/4 11016 I n n 2
standards [Qj 57/5 7718 78117 21519 rabspecialti~p1 109132 lW3 supposed (41 30118 6W4 87t3 22418
standing (31 65/14 1001110019 sub-specialty 18) 109117109123 11011 16919 sure 1321 4/22 514 W5 918 9112 201335 25415
standpoint 115/4 11U19 170114 171113 172/11174/35 42125 4313 541'8 59/13 6y3 W15 8917 9Z1
stands [I] 22819 sub-tests 191 83/17 8411 84111 183125 18413 92/39@4 1 W 111/20 138n 145124 149P2
Stsrke 111 29/13 fW11184112 1W15 164118 15014 15019 lSOlZlt55114 178/16 21W18
*tsrt (101 290 69/15 1 W 6 1311tS 131125 subdued 111 39/15 215/15 U0fl6 22317 22611
143n 1W4 183/12201120 201122 subject 131 53115 82/12 103/21 surprise (21 143121 146124
started 131 21/24 23FllW10 subjedve Ill lSgls surprised 131 87n3 1932 19912
starting (11 64nl subjects 131 2W 29/l f 158/13 surrebuttal(l1 22711
s t a r 4 [71 WS 6511 651% 67PM 68126Bl2 submit (21 11Lt357/24 surround [l] 131117
69114 submitted P] 1WIO 221/3 2 W l l surrounded (I] 131111
state [SO] 111 1D 1/14 1/16 1118413 1M U18 subscalw :!I] 1- Suscept (11 161/22
239 2712238/23 38/24 39118 41M 63/24 subscribe 111 13112 ~useeptibil[I] 7111l
70119 m 2 84/12 88/19 881'23 89B 89119 subsequently 141 8/11 2819 29116 7318 susceptibility (51 59116 7214 72/14 7318
90/9 W l 9 9118 91D 11419 114n1 I37111 substan 11) 3W2 163123
151119 173f18 177116 177121 179116 179nO Substance [l] 11fl5 susceptible 191 20/3 59/19 7115 7Y8 71/11
1801171W19 180/U 188116 19U18 1- subshntial 111 73111 7324 I60119 1 W 5N7t2
I93/12041P 212120 216t4 22018 2261'21 aubs~ntiallyI31 38l3St224 13aS suspect (91 114116 133S 13317 13311
22m422911 229E subtle [IJ 197t23 133132 133PU 134/16 13914 1-U
stated (41 74n0 92/16 136120 206123 succeed 11) 5812 suspects (3) 2418 127115 131m
shtement 1381 25/11 52/22 5905 6112 W2d such 1231 2W13 20120 21/19 27117 3Q$ suspfciousness 111 19%
631363/19 6&%5 6918 82114 87120llllf 7 31/12 6WII 80116 $38 86LM 93/74 98/17 sustained (31 2111 1W11M015
lIll18 lZQfl4 120fl6 120117 121flf 121115 IOU15 116113 127P7 127113158/18 158119 swearing [I] 104112
ltln4 12% 11222 121228 12316 1231P 19311919613 197n 203111 2W5 sworn (2) 4n7 I771U)
12312 123117 123/18 124/21126117129119 sufnee 9915 168110 sympathetic [ll 7Wt3
13323 13/25 t48/24 189/14 I9W5 19fV .U suffrient 141 11916 13/24 I74117 1 7 W symptoms [3) 33/22 3 W 10fB
20716 t M 5 suggest M 3817 6V7 89116 11N9 synonymous [l] 9Q/3
shtstsmentir (181 9914 L19n3 120/3 1 2 W suggestd 111 201B synth fl] 40/9
122/1122/4 lWlO 12t114 12% suggestibility 11241 1 M16/ll16/13 1713 synthesize (11 39/14
1- 1 2 a 125/1190/11901P1~0PM 17ll3 17118 17/21 18/24 19P7 191252 N l O system (q 6/166/16 73110 104110 139111
191118 19512 27117 2911 JOB 30111 33/11 340 34/10 3515 163B LBIVS
states 29/19 Y1/9 151110 1- 1W22 3714 39/11 51/19 5 3 7 52/11 WIl52./24
20W19 54n 56/12 57/19 60/23 6Yll69fS 73/17-46
station 111 2 M 79fl0 79110 W1d 81124W7 82/13 W1 T-score (11 34114
statlstiral(3I 37\12 W6 lW6 1OWS 10520 10M 1W6 lf06n0 1061U tactics (11 126t24
status (It] 12/15 251% 26/326/13 26/20 1071t4 1 W 5 I W 10817 lOWrlO 1W13 tailor ill 27114
27/7 44/21 55123 7415 1W1 171113 10I11171Wl 109/16109/2811I/41ll~4 tailor-makeIl] 27/14
steeped [I] 19411 112112 llU17 11m4 119116 120116120# take 1121 13/19 141589/14 95n6 117112
stenographic [I] 22919 121112 121/18 121Pt3 123/11123/18 I 2 4 1 127t25 159/4 167B 177B I W 5 Z M
step (41 149114 149PL4 16W21225138 12Y10 126119 1345 143135 1W4 148125 20916
Stcrue (31 68/368/46W4 149/5 15716 157/11157/21160/12 1W19 taken I41 2&9 32J134f19 2299
Steven PI 65/22 M/1120110 1MIm 1611t2 162110 162/24 16215 16221 takes (11 99111
still Ill] 1%35/16 W15 5111 78/23 1WZ2 154/1164/7 f 69/3 16918 170/13 17WI9 taking (51 54117 54125 91R4 143120202HO
IOfb25 1096 122123 1WlZS 155PI 1 7 W 171/14 172/11173/1 174/24 175/7 Calk (281 27/3 28/25 S t2 76121 77113 811%
stlpulata (11 3lB 198t12 199fl72001222#L3 ZOdlS 2 0 m 98111 106122112114 118110 118117 11911
stipulation [I] 79/22 W 5 20712211f23 2126 21913 219P7 1194 119# L19N 12115 127D 1W5
shle [ I ] lzln 219/18 219/24 2t014 222115 22319 149/15 175(4 175/10 175118179122 1W4
stomachache (I) IOU3 ZW20 2 2 M 2 22-4/14 2 2 M 5 22546 18U9 195118 195124227114
stools [l] 195122 saggesti bfe 123) 18/17 18/22 19/1435/8 3813 talkative 111 287/12
stop (21 W4 671% 39/7S#3SU1656/772/14106/5106111 talked[l4]~561t6791680/180/10
story (221 5317 13412113Y4 13JIS135113 106/12 1 M 9 ION2 1W17 11@1116/3 W l 4 114115 W18 93/16 1 0 W 10924
13920 135fZ113!593 136114136t22 138116 14Y3 1437 148116 157/25 16Q/7 10525 1 5 a 9 194B
13916 139B 14014 142113 146112ZW22 suggadng 111 109/5 talking (221 17119 17/24) 18/25 20D0 2W21
2 M 2033 2 W l ZW14 20!225 ruggestioa 1241 18/12 2014 U)/9 37123 51/5 22/14 24/18 30122dln4 6317 67116 7916
sfraight [ q 29f6 33113 36/22 934 1932222 5324 5611 5818 58~24W6 59/16 71/6 7244 IOOnO 109/3 11411I3WZ3 I3U14 EW2l
strategy 111 I31116 72118 73/24 81111 1 W 112# 113flS 15214 197118203/16 2291
sbrst (t] 12915204f9 14W3 147114 16116 161112 1- tnlk 90(17 112116 1W1
stre%$[lf 33124 suggesthe 111 161123 tallies [l] f 56119
s ~ h t c [I] d 33/24 suggestw 141 86/11 871P 101/13 159112 tape 121 7WO 161/11
strict (I] 17W6 summark [4] 144 63/63/13 154/8 18716 trrry (11 19533
student [I] 21VS summarW [I] 12/17 task [I] 217/22
studeols [I] 1481% summarizing [I 1 75/20 taught (11 13/21
stadia (101 125/13 126/14 12715 127117 aummsry (121 lSlll1151114 152110 1536 teachers (91 1 1 W 116/17 11711 11715
IN17 21m2219i1219110 219/l3 219n7 T%18 1M 15-4/14 I@/5 189B 19f118 117P7118n7 119/3 119/20 146'1
study 131 I26110 13411 219M 1931421M5 teaching 111 179n
stufi[l] 12314 Sunday [I] 182/19 team (11 190114
1
----- ,-, - 4'-.- s u d w ma* I ~ U I I &J W J W I V AVYt1J
testify (131 14/32 2lB 57/¶57r2 7QrZS80n 210113 212414 21411821921216122 217/16
technique [$ 7019 88/2 167122 167/24 169110 174fl4 lI001;kZ 219/19 U3n4 22W2 22816
technlqucs 111 6317 18Y25 their (4012819 3312336n739B 54/18 50/19
technology [l] 1311 testiwng 141 1W1O39/20 181/2 222/17 53/21 34/20 55/1 61/10 621970/10
teenagerr [ll 196114 testimony 1281 4 3 4 4315 56125 TS14 TSn 72t25 88l3 W6 1Mt23 10911 1l8t18 119121
beltpbone [Zl 122# 12M 84/14 8243 8U20 9815 I1010 138/15 167114 12211 12M2 12522 126110127/17 1 W 5
tell 134 20/6 67P7671P 67/11 68/10 68/15 1671U) 16811 16814 169/117014 l7Uf I3211 l3U5 1-2 136r22 134l23 147111
68/17 86118 97tY 97AO 97/18 9lt211042 171fl2 174n 174n 17410 174/1S17421 148111164113164114 IS716 lB7t7 aOSH
106110 1 W 5 10711212Y16 12415 134t16 2IY2J 213/11213/18 227H 208/2 217n4
139/18 14115 I41A5 2W4 15017 178J2 testimony'n 11) 79/16 them 1431 1414 14/11 15/18 18/1224n 2811
181115 187/I 1 m 2 lPBnlZW16 2 M n testing 111) 2618 27i212815 4017 84n wa 2915 331239/2552120 531115517 57/15 857
tewg 191 1111~ 111nl IIXJ 1 2 m rz~n ~m LOW low IWS 2 0 ~ 1 8 8814 92125 9611 9711 9716 1 ~ 21056
0
13315 13714 1411U 1- tests I1091 1W8 18/13 18/1518n118PLS 117111118119 118120 129/22 13315133i23
telb 141 10914 10919 l33123 141119 19162Cb2 20/8 25/21 2924 27/10 27112 13420 U5/41358 I40/7 14517 14613
template [I! 217/18 27/13 27/14 27/16 W128/19 28n2 29/3 146132 15#1 159)2 160/18 17716 185/10
ttmplah (I] 217/17 32110 3W213712 3WX 39tZ5 40n 4016 18812 2 W 6 208125 22WS
temporary 111 187P25 4W16 40119 41R 42#2 44/11 49124 50t8 theme 11) 7Wll
ten I7j 2116 32/14 157Il8 185B 18918 54WI0 50/13 51/15S6n3 56/13 56/17 56/18 themes I21 62/1162/19
21713 21W10 57/10 57113 57/18 7W 74/17 8U2 82/6 8312 themselves 161 39J9 23015 130116 13Yll
tend 121 36110 3916 85/17841I841884/1189/3490&390n90/4 165/19197/21
ttndenciar (1) 9U19 9Qt1011#1111~117/611717117110 then[%~6/186n57/2IlldO1~8fb13
tendency 121 Ja/S 147/12 13913 145n6 15V12 15311153118 15323 22n 2U6 22/927/2129nl31/14 31119
tender [lf 216tl5 15816 15818 158110 1W12 lSSnS 15913 33/34 3416 3611 37111 3916 39/10 40n5
ten& 151 usm 1119m 191n 191n 1 9 1 ~ 3 15919 15911I 159113199114 1sgns 1s9m 41/19 43/13 46116 46112 ~ ~ M 2 5314
2
Tennemee 111 519 159123 160/1160/16 169fl4 169117 172120 53/10 53/10 53120 54/17 5WIf3 6yL162123
Teren [I] 65114 lm0 173l22 174116 174116 175131 1 W 5 65/16 6M 6815 7914 8415 85n0 8Q4 8712
m
Term 65/10 120/9 121110 121131 1 W 184111184112 18415 184/18 185118 9W8911'22 93l9 96/2 96115 W4 W 1I
12323 124/22124m 188120 1I#1123 193U 19318 1961319915 101/24 1W18 l(Hn5 IMlll llSf19 126/4
Twesats[I] 65/14 2 1 W 214116 214116 215119 219116 127& 1311'313116 L311'2113U9 1W1 13917
tm [Zl] 9n0 15/11 15f14 15/23 49110 6OR Tern 111 IM7 IN4 1W19 14211 142M 1- 1-
6317 8u7 8712488179W13 114114 114114 test [I] 203110 143/21165niil51/24 153125 158/16 160n1
1lSTZ 1193 l91112 193/12M 21422 tertboob (2) 21U19 21WU 166n116/115 1 6 N 2 168114176123 17918
219t23 222416 than 1581 5117 12/17 151634f2135122 3St23 182118 1W22 19W16 191125 fWt20 201117
terms [lS] 17118 17122 19/1931/17 3 M 8 W6 3618 41118 43t2Q44(8 4618 4915 49123 249B 2121%214110 217114 220124 22lH
36/19 36119 36/U154/136619 7W6 17115 5217 %I1 W4 SM6 55/15 5714 58176919 224B1226# U61U 22%
19UU 19215 206K 8E118 100114 101~1103nO 1 W 2 1- theory P] 79/10
turribly (11 46B 106135 115117116121 127D 12SI14 129117 therapist P] 195/18
test 11911 2UI3 W 3 Q r q3111 31/19 3u25 14412 14425 1492 1W6 l a 1 14711 there [lf 91 6117917 9112 9/14 1414 15/23
34/203&24 36PW 37/21 38# 38110 38/25 147/21148/12 154/2 17114 17318 184110 15/24 1643 1Wl3 19110 22/18 26/15 26/24
39~39113391143911639P203912t40123 1851218Y101P8n2011242W2211L2 27H8 32113 32/133M4 32/15 3611 37116
4215 45d5 4615 4619 M23 47/3 &I11 4911 213t23 217/2 222115 2221222221% 22316 4514 4 3 7 48f8 4W9 48112 48114 SVZO 52/10
49J7 49/10 49/12 49/14 491% 54/11 5lf3 Thank 120) 1W331I5 44f4 76/15 76/18 52/1356/7W6 60fl26W8 6Ztl WI%#lI
51110 51/18 W4 5311 54n8 54/25 59/17 12LllI 13116 13513I49110 149A1 lSOfZO 66121 65/22 67/19 67/24 68/24 7713 77n
-1 5%r2 8114 83/18 8414 84112 841168516 166/19 16713 177115201110 2145 225113 77PS 81f8 83119 W4 W4 86/19 W23 W16
Mss114%5/1611611386/18%6/1986124 2W172W112W6 90f2QW 92il2 9% 94/?94112 94114
8718 8718 8711587/19 8W7 88P2189t20 t h a a b 111 l m 5 94/18 9518 95/12 98n 98/17 99/199!3 lOW9
89nl89M WlO 91111 9411 94f149drZO that fl23I1] 102PI lOW15 102~23102123 1W4 1W13
96/11 m 8 97/24 10Wl102(15 102116 thafs (182) 61148/79119 13/18 196 1% 116/1311712 117m 117m 11814 11W6
1 W I 103/3 13417134/15 134117134118 15123171120122 21115 21138 2.312 23/2 234 llW118 121D 12611 l2W4 12714 129124
134120 I m I34125 13g4 1W10 f W 2 24120 2916 2917 3W1333/10 3415 3613 41112 13219 I36112 139t1113912rl14Z8l a 1
135114139113139116 141B 14219 14411 41/15 4313 43116 43/20 44/18 4617 47f7 47/9 1W13149B 1W24 16219 16518 1741
14412 l a 2 14511 145n 14514 14W5 4W9 4W7 #I22 52112 53/13 5SPZJ 60/6W7 175423 17611 178/2S 181/21 llSn 1W
f 45/18 14812 148l10 1W12 1537 lSSllO 6312 63111 64tS6517 67/14 67115 68/18 18718 1892 1W3 I9lWS I93n IW19
155125 15911 15914 162/2116511164(1 W24 68/24 69/34 70115 7ll12 nis 75i5 195% 195125 196D 197117 197122 19811
16&216615 IW17 1691% 1750 282126 75/10 75117 7618 781778tl3 7914 79B 7916 19812 200n 20014 200113 200115 200116
183/17 18m4 18414 18Y4 185114 288i'lO 79/19 lOOn 8lIlW2 W2 rrzls 83/13 #L!4 2W9 21112 21113 213114 21U17 21717
188114188117 189B 189i16 189118 190118 %6/a2 88/6 W16 W2S 89/2 9213 92/11 218/3 21WlO 2W4
193124 1 M 6 195113195/20 19715 19W 9W2193m W 6 94l7 95/19 98/16 99/22 there'd [I] 86/21
l9M l9W3 198/10 1W/7199110 199/32 10012 10W6 10W14 100116 1W16 lOWU there's [2q 7tZl22112 22/16 27116 W22
199116 1SW12.320012 20013 2400 200/% 10116 103/110511I1107n 1W4 1W16 66119 67110 69t8 77PI W13 95/12 95/19
20117 241112 201113 201115 201/25 202115 10918 109112 109/20 110115 llY17 111/18 103EJ 103115 I09115 13% 133131 W
2036 2 W m 1 4 203)23 2W24 2442 Llll25 11m 112/20 1133 113123 11S/1. 136112 1 M S 1531%16WJ I75R -2
206119 206119 21Wl2 212/19 212/19 21318 llW7 llQIU 12Y6 121122 1ZSE412QIU 215111
214/7 2161%214%214/12 21U19 218125 12st15 12918 129114 131113l3lLtll3ul thereafter [4] 197/13227121 227123 229/11
215'6 215114 214/10217110 2171tl217116 13218 132116 132B11331111331161343 therefore 121 18514 190125
217120 217m 219113 22017 224/7 224113 1W 4 1134124 1W1W18 135125 137110 therefkom (21 169120 183/11
224114 224115 2Ut17 234/18 224124 224125 1391101W3 14Of7 14019140115 1 M 7 thereof [2]74% 12242
tested 121 16WS213fl9 141/22 l41/14 1441214-1 145/1145/10 these [4q 13/13 18/19 IE11211916 20/2 2017
testifled [MI4/17 IOn 1414 14/15 14619 145118 14616 14W14 149/7 149t7 1W 335 3317 34tB 36119 3ff19 3Q11936120 38/8
la124/13 2lff 2lB 21/13 Z v t z 22121 151/6 153i1315419 15Wl9 158120 1Ssnl 4919 55113 5Wt2 5&Q5 7Qr7 73/20 74/10
SSnl116113 f 5114 15W3 15714 15915 15913 1W6 163/16 I6YZl 166/18 16911 9tlQ 9215 92/6 9WU 93113 1028 I1112
17017177120 17119 I71123 1 m 4 17#1117#l9 17715 129/4 13913 148/8 1
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t 6 11491 1221 112214 12318 123122 124119 124)25 trained (51 13120 13/22 9W18 93/13 217122
IN15 191119/1327m 2813 2N6 281%28/15 12511 128125131113 132114 139t2514619 training Ill] 5/16 13/213815 1- IS93
2#15 29137 29/31929/20331W33122331U 147fl5 1- f 56/11 157/23 158/17 lW20 187/7 19411 19414 19W3 200115 21W
36111 36/12 36/13 36/13 36114 36/16 36/16 159# 16U4 169116 170n 174116 1W5 trainings 111 14)l
36/17 3916 39n 42/22 44239/19 50124 182116 187116 18918 1991111211 19219 trait (181 3&23 3- 39118 7UZ3 7Zt24
531 S m 52/21 5318 54119 54/20 59117 194n5 19514 19505 19615 196119 1W/1 88/19 W23 891989119 9019 9W19 9118 9119
59/18 59/19 591316a4Surr 62410 62/23 2 W 4 2 W S 20614 212t23 21W 215119 19W10 192423 19M 212Ml21U4
711107516 7517 737 75119 75/23 78t2 7815 215122217m 21#11218/14 219fl4 219r24 traits [q 1%11637/1137/20 73/21 9016
80118 871287P7 88f28W4 W 4 9311 100114 22m 98n3 99n
10M9 104R 1041'8 10819 lW10 1 0 4 1 !bough 3411 80~196~11142tt5 iwn kaa (11 =I6
104120 1W 106119 1 M 2 IO%rZS 10915 199/122fWlO lranscrlbed Ill 229111
IfOD7 11312011924 116/2311718 12111 hougbt [q 26n4 !XU24 9116 11916 12221 transcript 17j 2/2 2414 63/24 64/17 11015
12612412711 12711 12712 12815 12916 Boumnd 121 WF8 11813 22918 229112
129115129118 12920 129~1129i2513W3 howands 131 29/11 158/13 159/6 lranrertption u ] 229111
130/4 13017 13WS 13OB 130/21130/21 hrce (401 7 M 8/22 MI17 20117 2XB 21/X transcripts [I] 70n0
130/211311;15 13U4 1327 133112 133/15 22+2523133417 3419 388 4013 W 6 5425 brumatic 111 2U14
133t211332413325 13516 f 397 1 3 m l 6414 6U486l7 871111W18 lIOnO 120115 traveler's (21 136/7 138/14
14U21142./2414319 145122 146l2 14613 120/18 127D112I114 1 2 m 128/25 1W13 treatment (21 7 f E 11118
147i2 14716 1477 1W4 148/1O 148111 14W3 157114 157119 17316 17€d1181115 kw 111 86nt
148118 153110 157/24 164113 164115 164116 189# 190n0 1981U205/1S 205116 21320 trends Ill 1j18
169/17 170111187/ll187/14 1%813 189117 21m trial (8) 114 20n12m 109121 IlWll
lgOn 19511 19714 19715 201117 2W16 hree-hour 111 1W4 1 7 W 174/7 1-
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u

BRANCH 3
STATE OF WISCONSIN,
TRIAL DAY 9
vs . Case No. 0 6 C F 88
BRENDAN R . DASSEY,
DEFENDANT.

Circuit Court Judge'
APPEBRAN-S :
KENNETH R. KRATZ
Special Prosecutor
THOMAS FALLON
Special Prosecutor
NORMAN A . GAHN
Special Prosecutor
MARK R . FREMGEN
Attorney at Law
On behalf of t h e d e f e n d a n t .
RAYMOND L . EDELSTEIN
Attorney at Law
On behalf of t h e d e f e n d a n t .
BRENDAN R . DASSEY
Defendant
Appeared in person.
1

I N D E X
PAGE
MOT IONS 4-14
JUDGE'S INSTRUCTIONS 17-49
CLOSING ARGUMENTS
By ATTORNEY FALLON
By ATTORNEY FREMGEN
By ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN
By ATTORNEY FALLON
FINAL INSTRUCTIONS
VERDICT
JURY POLLED
3
THE COURT: Good morning, counsel. This is

State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan Dassey, 8 8 CF -- Or ,
excuse me -- uh, 06 88 CF. Uh, appearances, please.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: The State of Wisconsin
appears by Calumet County District Attorney Ken
Kratz, Assistant A t t o r n e y General Tom Fallon,

Assistant District A t t o r n e y N o r m Gahn, appearing
a s special prosecutors.
with Attorney Ray Edelstein appear. Uh, Brendan

Dassey appears in person.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, f i r s t , to the
prosecution, any motions before we proceed to t h e
jury?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Yes, Judge. We, uh --

we have moved, uh, the Court, uh, for an order
amending the Information, amending Count 3 , uh,

to second degree sexual assault as a party to t h e
crime. Section 971.29 ( Z ) , uh, allows, uh, the
Court to amend an Information to conform to t h e
proof where the amendment is n o t p r e j u d i c i a l to
the defendant. We alerted, uh, the Court and

counsel, uh, as to our intent to do so, uh, given
t h e , uh, s t a t e of the record.
4
Uh, State believes that second degree
sexual assault, uh, more accurately and
appropriately reflects t h e , uh, individual
behavior o f t h i s d e f e n d a n t , uh, Brendan Dassey,
and we have provided t h e Court with t h e o r i g i n a l

Amended, uh, Information. Copy's been provided
to Mr. Fremgen.
THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, do you have any

o b j e c t i o n to that proposed amendment?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: To t h e amendment, no.

THE COURT: Court is going to grant the
amendment. Any further motions from the State?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: N o t from the S t a t e ,
Judge.
THE COURT: The defendant?

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, w e would renew
our motion, uh, now that all t h e e v i d e n c e has
been presented and both parties have had -- or
the State's had an opportunity to do rebuttal,
but I would move, a g a i n , as previously, uh --
we -- we move t h i s C o u r t , following the close of
the State's case in chief, based on -- uh,

essentially, moving to dismiss Count 3, whether
it be now the amended Count 3.
Uh, again, rather than belabor the
5
argument before, essentially, uh, I would point
out to the Court the Supreme Court case of 1978,
State v . Verhasselt, which I don't t h i n k that law
has changed since then. In fact, the C o u r t had
mentioned State v . Bannister case, 2 0 0 6 case, and
I was able to review that. It appears to,

basically, reflect the same s t a t e of t h e law.
Uh, but, essentially, the state of t h e
law is that one may not be convicted solely upon
their uncorroborated confession. In the
Verhasselt case, the quote, uh, is b a s i c a l l y ,
quoting Hoft, which is the more seminal case from
1962, b u t , essentially, indicates as to the need
f o r corroborating evidence, a l l the evidence --

all the elements of t h e crime do n o t have to be
proved independently in a -- of an accused's
confession. It's enough that there be some
corroboration.
O u r position is that there has been no
independent corroboration of any element of Count
3 , and for that reason, we'd a s k t h e C o u r t to
dismiss.
THE COURT: Mr. Kratz?

ATTORNEY GAHN: Your Honor, I'll be, urn,
handling this portion of this motion.
6
THE COURT: Mr. Gahn.
ATTORNEY GAHN: Urn, thank you, Your
Honor. Urn, I have also read t h e State v .
Bannister at, uh, 2 9 4 Wis. 2d 359, a 2006

decision. And upon reading Bannister, it, uh --
is t h e r e are so many, uh, significant differences
between this case and the Bannister case.
Urn, the Bannister case, uh, basically,
stated there was absolutely no r e a l trial

testimony elaborating on almost any fact of the
confession. No details flushing o u t anything
surrounding t h e confession. Uh, they even noted
that there wasn't any testimony about what --
what room a transaction took place in, or how a
visit was set up for that drug transaction.
When you look at this case from the very
beginning, we have stipulated facts of why Teresa
Halbach was at the Avery Salvage Yard, h e r
purpose for being there for Auto Trader Magazine.
We have testimony from Bobby Dassey stating that
the l a s t time he saw h e r , she was walking towards
the Avery trailer. And in the Avery t r a i l e r was
t h e bedroom where this sexual assault took place.
So, we -- she is at the scene of, urn, where t h e
sexual assault took place.
7
Urn, Mr., uh, Dassey spoke about the hand
i r o n s a n d l e g irons. T h a t s h e was s h a c k l e d t o
t h a t bed. Urn, hand irons and leg irons have been

introduced in this trial as exhibits.
UA, during his, uh, questioning and his

confession, he spoke about, uh, seeing and
observing the, urn, unclothed body of Teresa
Halbach. Uh, there was no -- the -- no mention
of a t a t t o o or s c a r s or birth marks or anything

unusual.
Urn, this, I t h i n k , goes to the
surrounding facts and circumstances. I think,
a l s o , noteworthy a b o u t the location of this
assault, the bedroom, was that, uh, Brendan
Dassey spoke of the location of t h e bed, and I
note Detective Wiegert, uh, s t a t e d how there
was -- they were somewhat perplexed when he gave
the l o c a t i o n of t h e bed. And, t h e n , they came to
find out that that bed had been changed. That

the furniture had been rearranged. And that, I
think, is a very significant fact about t h e
location of t h e sexual assault.
Uh, and j u s t t h e change of furniture, I
t h i n k , is consistent w i t h all the inferences that
one can draw, uh, from this case, uh, something
8
very horrific t o o k place in that room, and, urn,
I -- I think it goes to the, uh -- the i n f e r e n c e

that, uh, cleaning was done. Bleach was found,
t h e Bissell, uh, t h e vacuum cleaner, and, uh,
Brendan Dassey spoke of cleaning up that took
place. And 1 t h i n k t h a t seeing t h e f u r n i t u r e
moved is a reasonable inference, uh, that

supports t h a t .
Also, urn, I t h i n k that the -- just the
l a c k of physical evidence and forensic evidence
is consistent with the facts that have been
derived in this case. And from the statements of

Brendan Dassey, they burned t h e body of Teresa
Halbach.
We had testimony from Katie Halbach
describing the jeans that she believed her sister
was wearing, and t h e rivets were found in this
fire, and the zipper, uh, the D a i s y Fuentes
rivets. And we also have outside testimony from,
urn, Mr. Tadych, in a stipulation, that he saw a
huge fire in the burn pit of, uh, Steven Avery on
t h e night of October 31. Same testimony from
B l a i n e Dassey.
Urn, I t h i n k , also, the Court to -- could
consider, um, that t h e victim knew her assailant.

She knew who was as -- urn, assaulting her and
sexually assaulting her. And Brendan Dassey

spoke about the conversations he had with Steven
about then killing her.
And this was not a stranger sexual

assault. This is one that, uh, the victim knew
her assailants. And, really, the o n l y course,

unfortunately, t h a t I t h i n k they decided to t a k e
was to k i l l the person. The only person who
could identify them.
And probably most noteworthy in this
case, is i n t h e Bannister decision, the, urn,
C o u r t n o t e d t h a t , urn, furthermore, they're
referring to Bannister's confession, did not
yield any unusual information or circumstances

that would n o t be w i d e l y known.
And I t h i n k that is probably the k e y
sentence in that, uh, decision that applies to
this case, especially when, after the confession
of Brendan Dassey, he spoke of her being killed
and shot in t h e garage, and in the garage is
found the bullet. The bullet which has the DNA

of Teresa Halbach on it. And that bullet, which
w a s matched to the very gun, to the exclusion of
all other guns, which was found in the bedroom
10
of, uh, where the sexual assault t o o k place.
So, Brendan Dassey was in that bedroom.
He knew w h e r e t h e gun was. He t o l d t h e police
where it was. And, sure enough, doesn't that
match the, urn, bullet that was found in the
garage.
I t h i n k , urn, I could go on. There are
other, uh, distinguishing features between our
situation and the Bannister case, b u t I certainly
believe that we have, uh, given far beyond, uh,
sufficient information from a reasonable
inference of all the evidence, the totality of
every -- all the testimony, that, uh, their
motion -- uh, that we did not provide independent
corroboration is without merit. Thank you, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Any response, Mr. Fremgen?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Uh, b r i e f l y , Judge.

Uh, much of what Mr. Gahn points o u t , as far as
corroborating d e t a i l , certainly corroborates the
first degree intentional homicide and mutilating
the corpse.
The -- the quotation from Verhasselt,

which quotes Holt and Triplett and all the o t h e r
cases that have come down over t h e years dealing
11
with this issue, says, the elements of t h e crime.
None of the corroborating details pointed o u t by
t h e State have a n y t h i n g c o n n e c t e d whatsoever to
do with Count 3.
Urn, even many of the items, or t h e
comments by, uh, the State in regards to
corroborating details, a r e -- are not so
corroborating. The bedroom drawing is n o t
e n t i r e l y accurate. The tattoo comment. Uh, in

the video, he actually, when confronted by Agent
Fassbender, uh, when he says, do you disagree
with me that t h e r e was no tattoo, he says, no.
Urn, uh, or, I'm sorry, disagree with me that
t h e r e is a tattoo, he says, no, I j u s t don't know
where it is.
As to the h a n d c u f f s and l e g i r o n s , the
State brought handcuffs and leg irons from his
own house. Urn, n o t h i n g that p o i n t s to i t s use in
the -- the crime, o r the a l l e g e d allegations,
but -- but they were addressed as well.
And, once again, t h e issue of the
clean-up, uh, one -- on one hand, the S t a t e says
there was such a meticulous job done to c l e a n up
the bedroom, yet, uh, Steven Avery's sloppy
enough to leave his blood a l l over the Rav 4. It
12
j u s t seems to be somewhat inconsistent.
So, we would, again, stand upon the fact
that t h e r e is no corroborating detail of the
elements of t h i s crime.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . I t h i n k Wisconsin

case law is clear, a confession must be corroborated
by -- and this is a quote from Holt, which Counsel
has cited -- a significant fact. Uh, H o l t is at 17
Wis. 2d. This is at page 480.
Uh, here, in this case, we have three

counts charging acts which occurred
contemporaneously. The Court believes that the
confession given by this defendant is
corroborated by a number of significant facts;
the bullet fragments, the pieces of bone, the
rake and the shovel, to name just a few. This is

s u f f i c i e n t corroboration for t h e confession as a
whole, and that whole includes t h e sexual
assault.
The reason underlying the necessity of
corroboration is, as was said in State v . Hauk at
257 Wis. 2d 579, uh, specifically, at page 592,
is to, quote, produce confidence in the

truthfulness of the confession, end quote. This
confession is not limited to only the sexual
13
assault. Therefore, significant f a c t s tending t o
support any p a r t of t h e confession, support or
tend to support all of that con -- confession.
Moreover, even if I were to view the
sexual assault count in isolation, I would say,
as I already have, that t h e r e exists, uh,
significant f a c t s which corroborated t h e
handcuffs, t h e l e g i r o n s , uh, as Mr. Gahn pointed
out, uh, the location of t h e bed as shown i n the
drawing, w h i c h was introduced h e r e as an exhibit,
a drawing of Brendan Dassey. Uh, t h e r e f o r e , I'm

going to do as I d i d before. I'm going to
deny -- respectfully deny your motion.
Now, uh, we have had a chambers j u r y

conference. Uh, you gentlemen have had an
opportunity to review the proposed jury
instructions. Uh, first, to the, uh,

prosecution, any -- any changes? Any motions?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: No, Judge. We believe
that the instructions -- And t h e Court i s
correct, we've had a n informal, urn, j u r y

instruction c o n f e r e n c e , where, um, m o s t , if n o t
all, of these instructions were discussed.

We have now reviewed the, uh, proposed
instructions. We have no objection to the
14
instructions as presented, nor as to t h e verdict
forms, uh, as included and set forth within those
instructions.
THE COURT: I -- I would -- uh, I would

j u s t note, uh, I believe that I amended Instruction
525, uh, to make it conform to one that was given in

the Avery case. Uh, I didn't have an opportunity to
tell you that before then, b u t the amendment doesn't
do anything substantively to it.
Now, to the defense.
ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, as to
the -- as to t h e , uh, packet m o s t recently
received, uh, we concur with those that are --

have been made available. I would, f o r the
record, urn, a s k the Court to enter its ruling on
the record regarding t h e defense instruction
specifically requested, uh, re -- requesting that
an instruction be provided regarding
corroboration.
THE COURT: The d e f e n s e had customized a --
construe -- uh, a -- an instruction that, uh, in

effect, would have t o l d t h e jury that before they
c o u l d f i n d t h e confession to be a valid confession,
it had to be corroborated by a -- well, I'm going t o
call it a significant fact -- had to be corroborated
15
by something in the record. Uh, the Court
suggested, in the informal conference, that while it
had reviewed t h a t instruction, it was going to deny,
uh, the defense motion to employ it as part of the
jury instructions.
I will now do so formally. I'll deny it
on the record. I do n o t believe -- I believe

t h a t the, uh, i n s t r u c t i o n on confession is, uh,
s u f f i c i e n t l y detailed in t h e course of the
instruction that's going to be used as part of
this p a r t i c u l a r j u r y instruction. I ' v e forgotten
w h e t h e r it's 180 --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I believe it's 180.
THE COURT: 180? All r i g h t . And I t h i n k
that -- yeah, it is. Instruction No. 180 deals w i t h
confessions and omis -- admissions, and I think that
that is the appropriate instruction. I do not

believe that, uh, giving what, in effect, is a legal
argument as part of the instruction as requested by
the defense is appropriate under the circumstances.
Therefore, 1'11 respectfully deny your motion.
Now, what I'd l i k e to do is to make, uh,
15 copies of this s e t of instructions. I'd l i k e

t h e jury to have them as I read them to them.
And it probably is going to take another t e n
16
minutes to do that. So, I'm going to recess f o r
that period of time.
(Reconvened at 1 0 : 5 8 a.m. J u r y in)
THE COURT: Be seated. Morning, ladies and
gentlemen. In a moment, I'm going to be reading you
the instructions. The jury instructions. As you
can see, excuse me, urn, t h e c l e r k is h a n d i n g copies
o f those i n s t r u c t i o n s o u t . You can see how well I
read, I suppose, by t r y i n g to follow a l o n g with me.
Uh, you certainly can and are urged to

follow along. However, once closing argument has
begun by counsel, I ask that you put t h o s e down
and pay attention to, uh -- to what the lawyers

have to say in the closing argument.
Uh, additionally, j u s t -- j u s t so you
know, at t h e -- at t h e end of closing argument,
before you retire for deliberation, we will --

the clerk will have a little drum up here and
we're going to draw three names, t h e names of
three j u r o r s o u t of that drum. The first two

will be discharged as j u r o r s , and t h e t h i r d will
be sequestered f o r the remaining, uh, p a r t of

the -- the deliberations. All right?
With that s a i d , Members of the Jury, t h e
17
Court will now instruct you upon the principles
of law which you are to follow in considering the
evidence and in reaching your verdict.
It is your duty to follow all of these
instructions. Regardless of any o p i n i o n you may
have about what the law is or ought to be, you
must base your verdict on t h e law I give you in
these instructions. Apply that law t o t h e f a c t s
in t h e case which have been properly proven by
the evidence. Consider only the evidence
received during the t r i a l and t h e l a w as given to
you by the instructions, and from these alone,
guided by your soundest reason and best judgment,
reach your verdict.
If any member of the j u r y has a n y
impression of my opinion as to whether t h e
d e f e n d a n t is guilty or not g u i l t y , disregard that
impression e n t i r e l y and decide the issues of fact

s o l e l y as you view the evidence. You, t h e jury,
are t h e sole judges of t h e facts, and the Court
is the judge of t h e law only.

One d e f e n d a n t , t h r e e counts.
The first count of the Amended
Information in this case charges Brendan Dassey,
on October 31, 2005, as a p a r t y to a crime, did
18
cause t h e death of Teresa M. Halbach, with the
intent to k i l l that person, c o n t r a r y to Sections

940.01 (1)( a ) , 9 3 9 . 5 0 ( 3 ) ( a ) , and 9 3 9 . 0 5 of t h e
Wisconsin S t a t u t e s .
To this charge, the d e f e n d a n t has
entered a plea of not guilty, which means the
State must prove every element o f the offense
charged beyond a reasonable d o u b t .
The second c o u n t of the Amended

Information charges t h a t Brendan Dassey, on
October 31, 2005, as a p a r t y to the crime, did
mutilate, disfigure, or dismember a corpse with
the intent to conceal a crime, contrary t o
Sections 9 4 0 . 1 1 ( I ) , 939.50 ( 3 ) ( f ), and 939.05 of
t h e Wisconsin Statutes.
To this charge, t h e d e f e n d a n t has also
entered a plea of n o t guilty, which means t h e
S t a t e must prove every element of t h e o f f e n s e
charged beyond a reasonable d o u b t .
The third c o u n t of t h e Amended
Information charges that Brendan Dassey, on
October 31, 2005, as a p a r t y to a crime, by
threat or use of force or violence, did have
s e x u a l intercourse w i t h Teresa Halbach, without
the c o n s e n t of that person, contrary t o S e c t i o n s

940.225 ( 2 ) ( a ) , 939.50 ( 3 ) (c), and 939.05 of the
Wisconsin Statutes.
To this charge, t h e defendant has also
entered a p l e a of not g u i l t y , w h i c h means the
S t a t e must prove every element of t h e offense
charged beyond a reasonable doubt.
F i r s t degree intentional homicide.
F i r s t degree reckless homicide. Party to a
crime, aiding and a b e t t i n g . Defendant either
d i r e c t l y committed or intentionally aided t h e
crime charged.
S e c t i o n 939.05 of the Criminal Code of
Wisconsin p r o v i d e s t h a t whoever's concerned i n
the commission of a crime is a party to that
c r i m e and may be convicted of t h a t crime although
the person did not directly commit it.
The State contends t h a t the defendant
was concerned i n the commission of the crime of
first degree intentional homicide by either
directly committing it or by i n t e n t i o n a l l y a i d i n g
and abetting the person who directly committed

it. If a person intentionally aids and abets the
commission of a crime, then t h a t person is guilty
of t h e crime a s well as t h e person who d i r e c t l y
committed it.
A person who intention -- a person
intentionally a i d s and abets the commission of a
crime when, acting with knowledge or belief t h a t
another person i s committing or intends to commit
a crime, he either knowingly assists t h e p e r s o n
who c o m m i t s t h e c r i m e o r is ready and willing to
assist, a n d the person who commits the crime
knows of the willingness to assist.
To intentionally aid and abet first
degree intentional homicide, the defendant must
know that another person is committing or intends
to commit the c r i m e of first degree intentional
homicide and have the purpose to assist the
commission of that crime.
Before you may f i n d t h e defendant
g u i l t y , the S t a t e must prove by evidence which
s a t i s f i e s you beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant directly committed the crime of first
degree intentional homicide or intentionally
aided and abetted the commission of that crime.
All 12 jurors do not have to agree
whether t h e defendant directly committed the
crime or aided and abetted the commission of the

crime. However, each j u r o r must be convinced
beyond a reasonable doubt that the d e f e n d a n t was
21
concerned i n the commission of the crime in one
of these ways.
The d e f e n d a n t i n t h i s case is charged
w i t h first degree intentional homicide, and if --

you must first consider whether the defendant is
guilty of that offense. If you are not satisfied
that t h e d e f e n d a n t is guilty of f i r s t degree
intentional homicide, you must consider whether
o r not t h e d e f e n d a n t i s g u i l t y of first degree

reckless homicide, which is a less serious degree
of criminal homicide.
The crimes r e f e r r e d t o as f i r s t degree
intentional and f i r s t degree reckless homicide
are different types of homicide. Homicide i s the
t a k i n g of t h e life of another human being. The
degree of homicide d e f i n e d by the law depends on
the facts and circumstances of each particular
case.
B o t h i n t e n t i o n a l and reckless homicide
r e q u i r e that the defendant caused the death of
the victim. First degree intentional homicide
requires the State to prove t h a t the defendant
acted w i t h t h e i n t e n t t o kill. First degree
reckless homicide requires that the defendant
acted recklessly, u n d e r circumstances which show

utter disregard f o r human l i f e . It is for you to
consider of what t y p e of homicide the defendant
is guilty, if guilty at all, according to t h e

instructions which d e f i n e t h e t w o o f f e n s e s .
The statutory definition of first degree
intentional homicide.
First degree intentional homicide a s

d e f i n e d in 940.01 of the Criminal Code of
Wisconsin, is committed by one who causes the
death of another human being with the intent to
k i l l that p e r s o n or another.
Before you may find t h e defendant guilty
of first degree intentional homicide, t h e State
must prove by evidence which satisfies you beyond
a reasonable doubt t h a t the following two
elements were present:
Number one, the defendant, or a person
with whom he was acting as a p a r t y to the crime,
caused the death of Teresa Halbach.

"Cause" means that the defendant ' s act,
or that the a c t of a person with whom he was
a c t i n g as a party to the crime, was a substantial
factor in producing the death.
Number two, t h e defendant, or a p e r s o n
with whom he was acting as a party to t h e crime,
23
acted w i t h t h e intent to kill Teresa Halbach.
" I n t e n t t o kill" means t h a t t h e

d e f e n d a n t , o r a person w i t h w h o m he was acting a s
a p a r t y to the crime, had the mental purpose to
take t h e l i f e of another human being or was aware

that his conduct was p r a c t i c a l l y c e r t a i n to cause
the death o f another human being.
While the law requires that the
d e f e n d a n t , or a person w i t h whom h e was a c t i n g as
a party to the crime, acted with intent to k i l l ,
it does n o t require t h a t the i n t e n t existed for
a n y p a r t i c u l a r l e n g t h of t i m e before t h e a c t is
committed. The act need n o t be brooded over,
considered, or reflected upon for a week, a day,
an hour, or even for a minute. There need not be
any appreciable time between t h e formation of the
intent and the a c t . The intent to k i l l may be
formed at any time before the act, including the

instant before the a c t , and must c o n t i n u e t o
exist a t the time of t h e act.
You cannot look into a person's mind to
find i n t e n t . I n t e n t t o k i l l must be found, if
found at a l l , f r o m the d e f e n d a n t ' s acts, words,
and statements, if any, or those of a person w i t h
whom he was acting as a p a r t y to the crime, and
24
from all the facts and circumstances in this case
bearing upon intent.
Intent should n o t be confused w i t h
motive. While proof of i n t e n t is necessary to a
conviction, proof of motive is not. "Motive"
refers to a person's reasons for doing something.
While motive may be shown as a circumstance to
aid in establishing the guilt of a defendant, or
a person w i t h whom he was acting as a party to
the crime, the State is not required to prove
motive on the part of the defendant, or a person

with whom he was acting as p a r t y to t h e crime, in
order to convict. Evidence of motive does not,
by itself, establish guilt. You s h o u l d give it
t h e weight you believe it deserves under a11 t h e
circumstances.
If you are s a t i s f i e d beyond a reasonable
doubt that t h e defendant caused the death of
Teresa Halbach, with the intent to kill, or a r e
satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant intentionally aided and abetted the
commission of t h e offense, you should find the
defendant guilty of f i r s t degree intentional
homicide.
IT you are not so satisfied, you must
25
find the defendant not guilty of first degree
intentional homicide, and you should consider
whether the defendant is guilty of first degree
reckless homicide in violation of 940.02(1) of
the Criminal Code of Wisconsin, which is a lesser
i n c l u d e d offense of first degree intentional
homicide.
You should make every reasonable e f f o r t
to agree unanimously on the charge of first
degree intentional homicide before considering
the o f f e n s e of first degree reckless homicide.
However, if, a f t e r full and complete
consideration of t h e evidence, you conclude that
further deliberation would not result in
unanimous agreement on the charge of first degree
intentional homicide, you should consider whether
the defendant is guilty of first degree reckless
homicide.
First degree reckless homicide, as
defined in 940,02(1) of t h e Criminal Code of
Wisconsin, is committed by one who recklessly
causes t h e death of another human being under
circumstances that show u t t e r disregard f o r human

life.
Before you may find the defendant guilty
26
of first degree reckless homicide, the State must
prove by evidence which satisfies you beyond a
reasonable doubt that the following three
elements were p r e s e n t :
N u m b e r one, t h e d e f e n d a n t , o r a person
w i t h whom he was acting as a party to the, uh --
the c r i m e , caused the death o f Teresa Halbach.
"Cause" means that t h e d e f e n d a n t ' s act,
or the act of a person w i t h whom he was a c t i n g as
a party t o t h e crime, was a substantial f a c t o r in
producing t h e death.
Number t w o , the defendant, or a person
with whom he was a c t i n g as a p a r t y to the crime,
caused the death by crimlin -- criminally
reckless conduct.
"Criminally reckless conduct" means the
conduct created a r i s k of death o r g r e a t bodily
harm to another person, and t h e risk of death or
great bodily harm was unreasonable and
substantial, and t h e d e f e n d a n t , o r a person w i t h
whom he was acting as a p a r t y to t h e crime, was
aware that his conduct created the unreasonable
and s u b s t a n t i a l r i s k of d e a t h o r g r e a t b o d i l y
harm.
Number three, t h e circumstances of t h e
27
defendant's conduct, o r the conduct of a person
with whom he was acting as a party to the crime,
showed utter disregard for human life.
In determining whether the conduct
showed u t t e r disregard f o r human life, you should
consider a l l the factors relating to the conduct.
These include t h e following:
What the defendant, or a person with

whom he was acting as a party to the crime, was
doing.
Why the defendant, or a person with w h o m
he was a c t i n g as a p a r t y to the crime, was

engaged i n t h a t c o n d u c t .
H o w dangerous the c o n d u c t was.
Bow obvious t h e danger was.
And w h e t h e r t h e c o n d u c t showed any
regard for life.

d o u b t t h a t the defendant caused the d e a t h of
Teresa Halbach by c r i m i n a l l y reckless conduct,
and that the circumstances of t h e conduct showed
u t t e r d i s r e g a r d for human l i f e , or are satisfied
beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant
intentionally aided and abetted the commission of
the offense, you should find the defendant g u i l t y
28
of f i r s t degree reckless homicide.
I f you are n o t so s a t i s f i e d , you must
f i n d the defendant n o t guilty.
You are not, i n any event, t o find the

d e f e n d a n t guilty of m o r e than one homicide
offense.
Mutilating a corpse. Party to a crime.
Aiding a n d abetting. T h e defendant either
directly committed or intentionally aided the
crime charged.
S e c t i o n 939.05 of t h e C r i m i n a l Code of
Wisconsin, provides that whoever is c o n c e r n e d
w i t h t h e commission of a crime is a p a r t y to that
crime and may be convicted of that crime although
t h e person did not directly commit it.
The State contends t h a t the d e f e n d a n t
w a s concerned i n t h e commission of the c r i m e of
mutilating a corpse by e i t h e r d i r e c t l y committing
it o r by intentionally aiding and abetting t h e
p e r s o n who directly committed it. If a person
i n t e n t i o n a l l y a i d s and abets t h e commission of a
crime, t h e n t h a t p e r s o n i s guilty of the c r i m e as
well as t h e person who directly committed it.

Person intentionally aids and abets the
commission of a crime when, a c t i n g w i t h knowledge
29
or belief that a n o t h e r person is committing or
i n t e n d s to commit a crime, he knowingly either
assists the person who commits t h e crime, or is
ready and willing to assist, and the person who
commits the crime knows of the willingness to
assist.
To intentionally aid and abet mutilating
a corpse, the defendant must know that another
person is committing or intends to commit the
crime of mutilating a corpse and have the purpose
to assist t h e commission of that crime.
guilty, the State must prove by evidence which

satisfies you beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant directly committed the crime of
mutilating a corpse or intentionally aided and
abetted the commission of that crime.
All 12 j u r o r s do not have to agree
whether t h e defendant directly committed t h e
c r i m e or aided and abetted the commission of the
beyond a reasonable doubt that t h e defendant was
concerned in the commission of the crime in one
of those ways.
Section 940.11(1) of the Criminal Code

of Wisconsin, is violated by one who mutilates,
disfigures, or dismembers a corpse w i t h

intention -- i n t e n t to conceal a crime or avoid
apprehension, prosecution or conviction for a

crime.
Before you may f i n d the d e f e n d a n t guilty
of this offense, t h e State must prove by evidence
which satisfies you beyond a reasonable doubt

t h a t t h e following t w o elements were p r e s e n t :

mutilated, disfigured or dismembered a corpse.
"Corpse" means the dead body of a human being.
Number two, the defendant, or a person

mutilated, disfigured or dismembered a corpse
with the intent to conceal a crime. This
requires that the defendant, or a person with
whom he was acting as a party to the crime, acted

with the purpose to conceal a crime.
You cannot look into a person's mind to
find out intent. Intent must be found, if found
at all, from the defendant's acts, words, and
statements, if any, or those of a person with
whom he was acting as a party to the crime, and
31
from a l l t h e f a c t s and circumstances in this case
beaxing upon i n t e n t .
doubt that both elements of t h i s offense have
been proved, o r are s a t i s f i e d beyond a r e a s o n a b l e
doubt t h a t the defendant -- d e f e n d a n t
i n t e n t i o n a l l y aided and abetted i n the commission

of the o f f e n s e , you s h o u l d f i n d t h e d e f e n d a n t
guilty.
If you are n o t so s a t i s f i e d , you must

find t h e d e f e n d a n t not guilty.
Second degree sexual assault. Party to
a crime. A i d i n g and abetting. The d e f e n d a n t
either charged -- uh, either d i r e c t l y committed
o r i n t e n t i o n a l l y aided t h e crime charged.
Section 939.05 of t h e C r i m i n a l Code of
Wisconsin, provides t h a t whoever is concerned i n
the commission of a crime, is a party to that
crime and may be c o n v i c t e d o f t h a t c r i m e although
the person did n o t directly commit it.
The State c o n t e n d s t h a t t h e d e f e n d a n t
was c o n c e r n e d i n t h e commission of the crime of
second degree sexual assault by either directly
committing it o r by i n t e n t i o n a l l y a i d i n g and
abetting the person who directly committed it.
32
If a person intentionally aids and abets the
commission of a crime, then that person is guilty
of t h e crime as w e l l as the person who directly
committed it.
A person intentionally aids and a b e t s
the commission of a crime when, a c t i n g with

knowledge or belief t h a t another person is
committing or intends to commit a crime, he
knowingly either assists the person who commits

t h e crime, or i s ready and willing to assist, and
the person who commits t h e crime knows of t h e

willingness to assist.
To intentionally aid and abet second
degree sexual assault, the defendant must know
that another person is committing or i n t e n d s to
commit t h e crime of second degree sexual assault
and have the purpose to assist the commission of
that crime.
guilty, the State must prove by evidence which
satisfies you beyond a reasonable doubt that the
defendant directly committed t h e crime of second
degree sexual assault or intentionally aided and
abetted the commission o f that crime.
A l l 12 j u r o r s do not have to agree
33
whether the defendant d i r e c t l y committed t h e
c r i m e or aided and abetted the commission of t h e

beyond a reasonable doubt t h a t t h e d e f e n d a n t was
concerned i n t h e commission of t h e crime i n one
of those ways.
Second degree s e x u a l assault. Sexual
intercourse without c o n s e n t by use of t h r e a t ox
violence.
Second degree sexual assault, as d e f i n e d
in Section 9 4 0 . 2 2 5 ( 2 ) ( a ) of the C r i m i n a l Code of

Wisconsin, i s committed by one who has sexual
intercourse with a n o t h e r person w i t h o u t c o n s e n t
and by use or threat of force or violence.
B e f o r e you may f i n d t h a t t h e d e f e n d a n t
i s guilty of this offense, the State must prove

by evidence which satisfies you beyond a
reasonable d o u b t that t h e following three

elements were present:
with whom he was a c t i n g as a p a r t y to t h e crime,

had sexual intercourse with Teresa Halbach.
Number two, Teresa Halbach did not
c o n s e n t t o t h e s e x u a l intercourse.
Number three, the d e f e n d a n t , or a person
34
with whom he was acting as a p a r t y to t h e crime,
had sexual intercourse with Teresa Halbach by use
of t h r e a t -- by use or threat of force or
violence.
The use or threat of force or violence
may occur before o r as part of the sexual
intercourse.
"Sexual i n t e r c o u r s e 1 ' means any
intrusion, however slight, by any part of a

person's body or of a n y object, into the genital
or anal opening of another. Emission of semen is
not required.
"Did n o t c o n s e n t " means that Teresa

Halbach did not freely agree to have sexual
intercourse with the defendant. In deciding

whether Teresa Halbach d i d n o t c o n s e n t , you
should consider what Teresa Halbach said and did,
along with all t h e o t h e r f a c t s and circumstances.

This element does not require that Teresa Halbach
offered physical resistance.
If you are satisfied beyond a reasonable
doubt t h a t t h e defendant had sexual intercourse
with Teresa Halbach without consent and by use or
threat of force or violence, or are s a t i s f i e d
beyond a reasonable doubt that t h e d e f e n d a n t
35
intentionally aided and a b e t t e d t h e commission of
the offense, you should find the defendant guilty
of second degree sexual assault.

If you are not so satisfied, you must
find the defendant not guilty.
Burden of proof and presumption of
innocence.
In reaching your verdict, examine the

evidence with care and caution. Act with
judgment, reason, and prudence.
Defendants are not required to prove
t h e i r innocence. The law presumes e v e r y person
charged with the commission of an offense to be
innocent. This presumption requires a finding of
not guilty unless, in your deliberations, you
find it is overcome by evidence which satisfies

you beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant
is guilty.
The burden of establishing every fact

necessary to constitute guilt is upon the State.
Before you can return a verdict of guilty, the
evidence must s a t i s f y you beyond a reasonable
doubt that the defendant is guilty.
If you c a n reconcile the evidence upon

any reasonable hypothesis consistent with the
36
defendant's innocence, you should do so and
return a v e r d i c t of n o t guilty.
The term "reasonable doubt" means a n y
doubt based upon reason and common sense. It is
a doubt f o r which a reason can be g i v e n arising
from a fair and rational consideration of the
evidence or lack of evidence. It means such a
doubt a s -- as would cause a person of o r d i n a r y
prudence to pause or hesitate when called upon to
act in the most important affairs of l i f e .
A reasonable doubt is n o t a doubt which
i s based upon mere guesswork or speculation. A
d o u b t which a r i s e s merely from sympathy or from
fear to return a verdict of guilt is n o t a
reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt is not a
doubt such as may be used to escape t h e
responsibility of a decision.
While it is your d u t y to give the

defendant t h e benefit of every reasonable doubt,
you are not to search for doubt. You are to
search f o r the truth.
Information n o t evidence. An
Information is n o t h i n g more than a written formal
accusation against a d e f e n d a n t charging t h e
com -- uh, commission of one or more criminal
37
acts. You are not to consider it as evidence
against the defendant in any way. It does not

raise any i n f e r e n c e of guilt.
Evidence d e f i n e d .
Evidence is, first, the sworn testimony

of witnesses, both on direct and
cross-examination, regardless of who called t h e
witness.
Second, t h e exhibits t h e C o u r t has
received, whether o r n o t an exhibit goes to the
jury room.
Third, any f a c t s to which the lawyers
have agreed or stipulated or which the Court is
directed -- or which the Court has directed you

to find.
Anything you may have s e e n or heard
outside the courtroom is not evidence. You are
to decide the case solely on t h e evidence offered
and received at trial.
The district attorney and the attorney
f o r the defendant have stipulated or agreed as
follows :
Steven Schmitz is a citizen living in

N e w Holstein, Wisconsin, a community located 30
miles west of Manitowoc, Wisconsin.
38
JoEllen Zipperer is a citizen living in
rural Manitowoc County, Wisconsin.
That if called to t e s t i f y , Steven

Schmitz would t e s t i f y that on October 31, 2005,
Teresa Halbach came to the S c h i t z property to
take a photo of a v e h i c l e for Auto Trader
Magazine. Schrnitz would indicate that Halbach
was at his residence at approximately 1:30 p.m.,
was t h e r e for approximately ten minutes, was
wearing a w h i t e s h i r t , w a i t -- waist-length
jacket, and blue jeans. Schrnitz would state that
before leaving, Halbach provided Schmitz with t h e
latest Auto Trader Magazine and a bill of sale,
left his p r o p e r t y , and drove away in her SUV.
Number three, that if called to testify,
JoEllen Zipperer would testify t h a t on October
31, 2005, Teresa Halbach came t o the Z i p p e r e r
p r o p e r t y t o take a photo of a vehicle for Auto
Trader Magazine. Zipperer would indicate that

Halbach was at h e r residence between
approximately 2:00 to 2:30 p.m., was at there --

was there for approximately ten minutes, was
wearing a white top, waist-length j a c k e t , and

blue jeans. Zipperer would state that before
leaving, Halbach provided her with the latest
39
Auto Trader Magazine a n d a bill of s a l e , l e f t h e r
p r o p e r t y , a n d drove away i n her SUV. Zipperer
would f i n a l l y state t h a t the Avery Salvage Yard

is no more than a ten-minute drive from her
residence in Manitowoc County.
On October 31, 2005, Bobby Dassey was
t h e s o n of Barb Janda and brother o f t h e
d e f e n d a n t , Brendan Dassey. Bobby Dassey lived in
the same residence w i t h Barb Janda and Brendan
Dassey at the time.
That if called to testify, Bobby Dassey
would state that between 2 : 3 0 and 2 : 4 5 p.m. on
October 31, 2005, he was inside the Janda/Dassey
residence, where he observed a blue, s l a s h , green
Toyota Rav 4 stop outside the residence, in close
proximity to a maroon van that his mother, Barb
Janda, had f o r sale.
Bobby Dassey would s t a t e that he
observed a young woman, that he later came to
identify as Tressa Halbach, exit h e r vehicle,
take some photos of the maroon van and w a l k
toward the trailer of Steven Avery.
Bobby Dassey would f u r t h e r state that
after t a k i n g a shower, he left the residence at
approximately 3 : 0 0 p . m . to go deer hunting, at
40
which time he still observed the Rav 4 parked
outside his residence, but that Teresa Halbach
was n o t observed.
Bobby Dassey would state that he
returned to the residence at approximately
5:00 p.m. and no longer observed the Rav 4.
On October 31, 2005, Scott Tadych was
the boyfriend of Barba Janda, knew t h e d e f e n d a n t ,
Brendan Dassey, S t e v e n Avery, and other f a m i l y

members l i v i n g a t the Avery Salvage Yard.
T h a t i f called t o testify, Scott Tadych
would state that between 7 : 3 0 and 7 : 4 5 p . m . on
October 31, 2005, he was at t h e Janda, slash,
Dassey p r o p e r t y , where he dropped o f f Barb Janda.
Tadych would s t a t e that he observed a
large fire in the burn area b e h i n d t h e detached
garage of S t e v e n Avery.
Tadych would f u r t h e r indicate that at
the time, he observed Brendan Dassey and Seven
Avery s t a n d i n g next t o t h e fire.
Number eight, Dr. Jeffrey Jentzen is t h e
Chief Medical Examiner f o r Milwaukee County,
Wisconsin, and is a Board Certified Forensic

Pathologist. Dr. Jentzen agreed to be a medical
consultant in this case and offered e x p e r t
41
testimony as to t h e manner and cause of death of
Teresa Halbach.
That i f called t o t e s t i f y , D r . Jentzen
would state t h a t a f t e r consultation w i t h Forensic
Anthropologist, Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, he reviewed
reports, photographs, x-rays, bone fragments, and
other materials surrounding t h e Teresa Halbach

death investigation.
Dr. Jentzen would t e s t i f y that, in his

expert opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical
certainty, the manner of death of Teresa Halbach
was homicide, and the cause of death was gunshot
wounds to the head.
On October 31, 2005, Angela Schuster was
t h e manager for Auto Trader Magazine, with
headquarters in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. On the
same date, Dawn P l i s z k a , performed duties as
receptionist for Auto Trader.
That if called to t e s t i f y , Angela
Schuster would testify that Teresa Halbach was
h i r e d as a photographer f o r Auto T r a d e r in
October, 2004, and continued in that employment
through October 31, 2005. Schuster -- Schuster
would f u r t h e r state that Teresa Halbach had
performed photo shoots at the Avery salvage
42
business on five occasions pri -- p r i o r to
October 31 in 2005; including, June 20,
August 22, August 29, September 19, and October
10.
That if called to t e s t i f y , Dawn P l i s z k a
would t e s t i f y that on October 31, 2005, she
received a phone call f r o m Steven Avery at
approximately 8:12 a.m., at which time Avery
requested that, q u o t e , the same girl that had
been out here before, end q u o t e , come to his
p r o p e r t y to take photos of a van he had for sale.
Pliszka would further state t h a t Avery made the
appointment u n d e r t h e name, q u o t e , 3. Janda, end
quote, and that P l i s z k a left a voice mail f o r
Teresa Halbach at 9:46 a.m., asking i f s h e could
make the appointment.
Number 13, that if called to testify,
Dawn P l i s z k a would further t e s t i f y that at

2 : 2 7 p.m., she did speak with Teresa Halbach on
Teresa's cell phone, at which time Ms. Halbach
indicated that she was, quote, on her way, end
quote, to the Avery property from her previous
appointment.
You will consider that testimony in the
same manner as if it had been given under oath
43
here in court.
Circumstantial evidence. It is not
necessary that every f a c t be proved d i r e c t l y by a
witness or an exhibit. A fact may be proved
indirectly by circumstantial evidence.
"Circumstantial evidencettis evidence from which
a jury may logically find other facts according
to common knowledge and experience.
Circumstantial evidence is not
necessarily better or worse than direct evidence.
Either type of evidence can prove a f a c t .
Whether evidence is direct or circumstantial, it
must satisfy you beyond a reasonable doubt that
the d e f e n d a n t committed t h e offense before you
may find the defendant guilty.
Confessions. Admissions. T h e State has
introduced evidence of statements which it claims
were made by the defendant, is for you to
determine how much weight, if any, to give to
each statement. In evaluating each statement,
you must determine t h r e e things:
Whether the statement was actually made
by the defendant. Only -- only so much of a
statement as was actually made by a person may be
considered as evidence.
44
Whether the statement was accurately
r e s t a t e d here at trial.
Whether the statement, or any p a r t of
i t , ought t o be believed.
You should consider the f a c t s and

circumstances surrounding t h e making of each
statement, along with all the o t h e r e v i d e n c e , i n
d e t e r m i n i n g how much weight, if any, t h e
statement deserves.
J u r o r s knowledge. In weighing the

evidence, you may take into account matters of
your common knowledge and your observations and
e x p e r i e n c e i n t h e affairs of life.
Remarks of c o u n s e l . Remarks of the
attorneys are n o t evidence. If the r e m a r k s

suggest certain facts n o t in evidence, disregard
the suggestion.
Closing arguments of counsel. Consider,

c a r e f u l l y , the closing arguments of t h e
attorneys, b u t t h e i r arguments and c o n c l u s i o n s
and o p i n i o n s a r e n o t evidence. D r a w your own
conclusions from the evidence and decide upon
your verdict according to the evidence under the
instructions g i v e n to you by t h e C o u r t .
Exhibits. An exhibit becomes evidence
45
only when received by the Court, An e x h i b i t
marked f o r identification and not received is not
evidence. An exhibited -- an exhibit received is

evidence, whether or not it goes to the j u r y
room.
Objections of c o u n s e l . Evidence
received over objections.
Attorneys f o r each side have the right
and the d u t y to object t o what t h e y c o n s i d e r a r e
improper questions asked of witnesses and to the
admission of other evidence which they believe is
n o t properly admissible. You should n o t draw a n y
conclusions from the fact an objection was made.
By a l l o w i n g t e s t i m o n y o r other evidence
to be received over the objection of counsel, the
Court is not indicating any opinion about the
evidence. You, j u r o r s , are t h e judges of the
credibility of the witnesses and the weight of

t h e evidence.
Improper questions. Disregard,
entirely, any question that the Court did not
allow to be answered. Do n o t guess at what t h e
witness' answer might have been. If t h e
evidence, i t -- i t s e l f , suggested that certain
information may be true, ignore the suggestion
46
and do not consider it as evidence.
S t r i c k e n testimony. During the t r i a l ,
the C o u r t has ordered certain testimony to be
stricken. Disregard all stricken testimony.
Weight of evidence. The weight of

evidence does n o t depend on the number of
witnesses on each side. You may find that the

testimony of one witness is entitled to greater
evidence than that of another witness or even of
several other witnesses.
Expert opinion testimony. Ordinarily, a

witness may testify only about facts. However, a
witness with expertise in a particular f i e l d may
give an opinion in that field. You should

consider the qualifications and credibility of
the expert, the f a c t s upon which the opinion is
based, and t h e reasons given f o r the opinion.
Opinion evidence was received to help

you reach-a conclusion. However, you are not
bound by any expert's opinion.
In resolving conflicts in expert

testimony, weigh the different expert opinions
against each other. Also consider the
qualifications and credibility of the experts and
t h e f a c t s supporting their o p i n i o n s .
47
Credibility of witnesses. It is the
d u t y of the jury to scrutinize and to weigh the
testimony of witnesses and to determine the
effect of the evidence a s a whole. You are t h e
sole judges of the credibility. That is, the

believability of t h e witnesses and the weight to
be given to t h e i r testimony.
In determining the credibility of each
witness and the weight you give to the testimony
of each witness, consider t h e s e f a c t o r s :
Whether the witness has an interest or
lack of interest in the result of this trial.
The witness1 conduct, appearance, and

demeanor on the witness stand.
The clearness or lack of clearness of

the witness' recollections.
T h e opportunity the witness had for
obsexving and for knowing the matters the witness
testified about.
The reasonableness of the witness1
testimony.
The apparent intelligence of t h e
witness.
Bias or prejudice, if any has been
shown.
Possible motives for falsifying
testimony.
And all other facts and circumstances
during the t r i a l which t e n d either to support or
to discredit the testimony.
Then give to the testimony of each

witness the weight you believe it should receive.
The d e f e n d a n t has testified in this
case, and you should not discredit the testimony
j u s t because the defendant is charged with a
crime. U s e the same factors t o determine t h e
credibility a n d the weight of t h e defendant's
testimony that you use to evaluate the testimony
of a n y other witness.
There is no magic way for you to
evaluate the testimony. Instead, you should use
your common sense and experience. In everyday
life, you determine f o r yourselves t h e

reliability of things people say to you. You
should do t h e same here.
Ladies and gentlemen, at this time that
concludes the instructions I'm g o i n g to give.
Later on, I will give a few more. Now is t h e
time f o r closing a r g u m e n t . Counsel?
ATTORNEY FALLON: May it please the
49
C o u r t , Counsel. I n o u r o p e n i n g r e m a r k s t o you,
w e asked you to t h i n k about two q u e s t i o n s as you
l i s t e n to t h e evidence, a s you examine the
evidence, as you evaluated the evidence. And
those q u e s t i o n s were:
Was he there? D i d he help?
In thinking about answering those
questions, there's been a great deal of
testimony, a great deal of information provided
about the defendant, Brendan Dassey, and his
uncle, Steven Avery. B u t there's one other
person here who's important. And that is this
woman, Teresa Halbach, because this case is a b o u t
h e r as well.
In t h i n k i n g about these questions, we

pose them this way because there's an old maxim
that seems to really fit; he who helps the guilty
shares the crime.
We're going to evaluate the evidence
from another prospectus. From what happened, t h e
big picture, in t h e words of t h e d e f e n d a n t , and
in the evidence that we presented.

Then we'll look at what corroborates
that. Why is it believable, why is it reliable,
what t h e d e f e n d a n t told us?
50
And then we'll talk about the p a r t y to
t h e crime. Specifically, why he is guilty of
these offenses. What is it that he did that made
him a -- a party to the crime.

And, finally, we'll look at the
evidence. W e r l l . t u r nt h a t prism, and we'll look
ever so slightly at the same evidence from
another perspective. And that's t h e choices that
he made. Comparing what he did and what he
didn't do. The choices that he made, the
decisions that could have been made, that should
have been made, b u t were n o t made. And those
decisions, along with what he -- what he didn't
do, along w i t h what he did do, is the proof.
All right. What happened? October 31.
Just like any other Monday, Teresa Halbach gets
up, seems l i k e any other day, a n y o t h e r workday
for her. Little did she know that this would be
her last.
You see, this day she was on t h e A u t o
T r a d e r beat. She had a full day of appointments.
An afternoon full of appointments. As you
recall, t h e f i r s t appointment was with Mr. Steven
Schmitz of N e w Holstein. Mr. Schmitz, had he

been called to t e s t i f y , would have told you that
51
Teresa Halbach was at his residence about 1:30.
A ten-minute business transaction to place his
vehicle in t h e Auto Trader Magazine. And Teresa
appeared with a waist-length jacket, a white
shirt and blue jeans.
Upon the conclusion of their business,
he provided h e r an Auto T r a d e r Magazine and a
bill of sale. And Teresa moved on to her next
appointment.
And that was with the Zipperers. You
r e c a l l that if JoEllen Zipler -- Zipperer had
been called, she would have told you that Teresa
Halbach was at her residence in rural Manitowoc
County between 2 and 2 : 3 0 . About that time.
Again, about a ten-minute transaction. Teresa
was wearing a waist-length jacket, a white top
and blue j e a n s .
And, again, the transaction was brief
and concluded with a copy of t h e Auto T r a d e r
Magazine and a bill of sale. And, as
Ms. Zipperer would have told us, it's about a
ten-minute ride to her next appointment. That
appointment was with a B. Janda, which, we all
know now, was the appointment with Steven Avery.
The appointment with death. Little d i d she know
52
i
what awaited h e r .
Let's look at the evidence more closely.
Remember, about 2:27 now, Teresa calls into Auto
Trader to Dawn P l i s z k a . Says, I'm on my way to
my next appointment. It's a ten-minute ride.

Thereabouts.
So somewhere between 10:35 and 10:40,
Teresa Halbach arrives. And at 2:41 in the
afternoon on October 31, Teresa makes her last
call. You recall Exhibit 56, the Cingulas
records documenting h e r very l a s t call at 2:41.
As you recall from the other stipulation
reached, at about 2:45 p.m. Bobby Dassey's
getting up. Getting ready to s t a r t his day. He
l o o k s o u t the window, and what does he see?
C a l l e d to testify, he would have told
you he observed a blue/green Toyota Rav 4 stop
outside of his residence in close proximity to
the maroon van that his mother, Barb Janda, had
f o r sale. He would tell you that he saw a woman,
that he later learned was Teresa Halbach, e x i t
h e r vehicle and take pictures of that van.
Now, remember, this is 2 : 4 5 . She
concludes with the pictures and where does she
go? Bobby Dassey tells us that she was walking
53
toward the residence of Steven Avery. He takes
his shower, he gets up and he hits the road at
3:OO. He likes to go hunting before he goes to

work. He leaves at 3:00 and what does he see?
He doesn't see Teresa, but her vehicle is s t i l l
there. The Rav 4 .
But when he comes back at five, Teresa
is nowhere to be seen, and neither is the Rav 4.
And we now know, based on the words of the
defendant, himself, that Bobby Dassey was n o t the
last Dassey to see Teresa Halbach alive.
An hour passes. An agonizingly slow
hour for Teresa Halbach, no doubt. You see,
she's been overcome. She's now handcuffed,
leg-cuffed and spread eagle on the bed of Steven
Avery so that he can have his way with h e r .
Enter the defendant, Brendan Dassey.
You will recall there's no disputing that he got
off the bus at 3:45, again, about an hour after
h e r arrival on t h e p r o p e r t y , w i t h h i s b r o t h e r ,
Blaine, and they head up the driveway to t h e
house. And, as you might expect, as usually
happens in families, the o l d e r b r o t h e r gets h i s
way a n d Blaine gets the computer and the phone
f i r s t to arrange his night's glans. And the
54
A
defendant watches TV f o r awhile and then he goes
out to get t h e mail.
He goes down and he gets t h e mail. And
he's coming back to his house, and he looks at it
and says, oh, I g o t something here for Uncle

Steve. Well, I'll just take it over there. So
he goes over to Steve Avery's t r a i l e r , and as
h e v s k n o c k i n g on the door, he hears screams.
Screams f o r h e l p . And he's knocking. And as he
told us in his statement, it takes five minutes
for h i s Uncle Steve to answer the door. And when
he does, what is h i s observation? Steven Avery
is dressed in red shorts, a white t-shirt and

sweating.
Come on i n , Brendan. So he goes in.
And in a matter of moments he begins t o
understand w h a t ' s o c c u r r i n g , what h o r r o r s a r e
o c c u r r i n g i n t h a t room, because he can look down
that hallway and see Teresa Halbach's body on
that bed, at which time his uncle extends a most
gruesome invitation. Do you want some, he says.
They t a l k .
The defendant is trying to decide, well,
I -- I don't know. I -- I ' m t o o young. I --

I'm -- I'm n o t ready f o r this. Do you want some?
55
T h i s i s between 4 and 4:30. But it's starting to
get late now. The defendant knows he' s g o t to
get home, because h i s m o t h e r ' s going t o be home
a t f i v e and B l a i n e i s home. G o t to find o u t
what's going on.

So he goes home and he has dinner with
his brother. He t a l k s to his b r o t h e r . And his
mother comes home and he talks to his mother.

And he learns that she's going to Green Bay to
see the mother of Mr. Tadych. He knows that h i s
b r o t h e r , Blaine, is going treat o r treating.
So what does t h e defendant decide to do?
He decides to return to Teres -- to Steven Avery.
He decides to take h i m up on the invitation. But
before he does, he gets a call. He gets a c a l l
from M i k e Kornely. I: t h i n k Mr. Kornely was off
maybe a half an hour. He gave us an hour in
which that call would made. H e thinks six. I
think that call came in c l o s e r to 5:30. The call

probably came i n a t 5:30, and Brendan clearly d i d
t a l k to Mike K o r n e l y , we have no dispute about
that.
B u t h e leaves and goes back. We know he
g o e s back. We know he goes back because he tells
the police he goes back. We know he goes back
56
because he tells his mother in those phone
conversations, ten weeks later on May 13 and May
15, that he went back. That he was there.
And we also know through one other fact,
he knows that Avery's fianc4, Jodi S t a c h o w s k i ,
c a l l s , and she told us that she called the first

time about 5 : 3 0 . So we know he w e n t back.
Meanwhile, back at the Avery trailer,
Teresa remains a prisoner and we can only
imagine. But the defendant, this man, he goes
back. Why? Because he wanted sex. Because he
wanted to know what it was l i k e . Because he
decided, he made his f i r s t choice, to accept the
invitation.
So he goes back and he rapes Teresa
Halbach while his uncle watches and applauds his

effort. Ata boy, Brendan, that's t h e way to do
it. Does that sound like something you'd make
up? So t h e y go back to t h e front room and they
talk about their deeds. But more importantly,
they t a l k about, what are we going to do next?
Well, t h e answer is obvious. They decide to k i l l
her.
They go back to t h e bedroom. Steven
Avery s t a b s her in t h e stomach. He hands t h e
57
k n i f e to the defendant. Says, here, cut her.
And the defendant, he tells us he does. Right
across here. Tells us that M r . Avery chokes h e r
t o t h e p o i n t of unconsciousness.
The defendant is then told to c u t off a
l o c k of h e r h a i r . A s o u v e n i r , no d o u b t . She's
unconscious. They uncuff her. They tie her up
and they c a r r y her u n c o n s c i o u s body t o t h e
garage. And then Steven Avery gets another

monstrous idea. I know, i n s t e a d of b u r y i n g her
i n a nearby pond, we'll burn her. But, f i r s t ,
but, f i r s t , Brendan, you wait here. I got to go

back and get the gun.
And at that moment, the defendant
becomes the silent s e n t i n e l f o r the l a s t moments
of Teresa Halbach's l i f e . Steven Avery returns

to that garage and s h o o t s her 10 o r 11 times on
the f l o o r of that garage. And in t h e blink of an
e y e t h e k i l l e r s become pallbearers c a r r y i n g h e r
out on t h e B l a c k Jack creeper to t h e fire that's
a l r e a d y s t a r t e d , to the fire that's ready to go
u n d e r cover of darkness, to a bonfire that's
common on that p r o p e r t y . Carrying her to t h e
funeral f i r e .
Only this is not a funeral f i r e of days
58
of antiquity where family and friends came to
honor t h e dead for t h e i r life. This was not
that. This was an incineration. It was n o t
conducted to honor her, it was conducted to

destroy h e r . It was conducted, more importantly,
to destroy t h e evidence of these heinous acts.
Moments pass, and it's time to c l e a n up.
It's time to cover up. The SUV is taken down to

t h e other part of t h e salvage yard. It's covered
with t i r e -- uh, excuse me, with bush, fence
posts, w i t h brush, and t h e hood of a car. A11
part of t h e plan to cover up these acts.
Then i t f s back to the fire. What are we
going to do? Now, it's time f o r the Eire to be

tended. More tires, more wood, more b r u s h , a van
s e a t a r e a l l thrown onto the f i r e to conceal the
horrific a c t s that they have done.
Now, let's s t e p back for a moment. It's
about 7, 7:30 -- 7 : 3 0 to 7 : 4 5 now. The
defendant's mother is returning with Scott Tadych
from Green Bay. And you r e c a l l t h e stipulation.
Tf called to the -- t e s t i f y , Mr. Tadych would
state that between 7:30 and 7 : 4 5 on October 31,
he was at t h e p r o p e r t y where he dropped off Barb
Janda .
59
Tadych would state he observed a large
fire in t h e burn area b e h i n d t h e detached garage

of Steven Avery. Tadych would f u r t h e r i n d i c a t e
a t that t i m e he observed S t e v e n Avery and t h e
defendant s t a n d i n g by t h e f i r e .
Time passes. But t h e r e ' s more c l e a n i n g
up t o be done. There's more coverup t o be done.
The floor i n the garage where t h e shooting
occurred has to be cleaned with paint thinner,
with g a s o l i n e , and with bleach. Bleach. Why
would you use bleach t o c l e a n a u t o m o t i v e stains

o f f a f l o o r i n a garage? You w o u l d n ' t . But, if
y o u ' r e Steven Avery, you would know to u s e bleach
to destroy the evidence.
What else is destroyed? H e r clothes.
There wasn't j u s t a bag of rags that was used to
clean up. Teresa Aalbach's clothes were u s e d to
c l e a n t h a t up. And they were thrown in the f i r e

along w i t h t h e bedding. And just as Teresa a n d
her clothes w a s b u r n e d , j u s t a s her personal
effects were earlier disposed of i n the burn
b a r r e l , t h e camera, t h e c e l l phone and the like,
her purse, h e r palm pilot, all of that, burned.

Eventually, t h e k i l l e r s have to go back
to t h e fire, because t o consume a body requires a
60
great deal of heat. More t i r e s , more fuel. And
they go back and they tend the fire. And they
watch the f i r e . And t h e y m u s t have thought t h e y
were home free. B u t we know they were not,
because Teresa's remains bear silent witness to
t h e killer's deeds. Tom Sturdivant, Rod Pevytoe,
Leslie Eisenberg and Dr. Jeffrey Jentzen would
see to that.
And you recall Dr. J e n t z e n ' s
stipulation. He would have told us, in his

expert opinion to a reasonable degree of medical
c e r t a i n t y , that the manner of death was homicide
and t h e cause of death was gunshot.
All right. Now, t h e question is, why
s h o u l d w e b e l i e v e t h e things t h a t the defendant
has told us? Let's talk about corroboration.
Teresa Halbach was in Steven Avery's trailer on

October 31. How do w e know? His trailer was
searched. And what did w e find? An Auto Trader
Magazine and a bill of s a l e . Just t h e same
information t h a t Steven Schmitz received, that

JoEllen Zipperer received.
Teresa Halbach was restrained in Steven
Avery's trailer. How do w e know? Handcuffs.
Handcuffs and leg cuffs. Restraints.
61
Y
Teresa Halbach was shot in the garage.
How do we know? Well, remember, t h e r e was a
search warrant that was issued shortly after the
defendant gave his statement. His confession.
We have bullet fragments from a .22 caliber. We

have shell casings, 11 shell casings. Shell
casings that were discharged from this weapon.
Bullets discharged from this weapon. A
. 2 2 caliber Marlin G l e n f i e l d rifle. The very
r i f l e that hung on the rack in Steven Averyfs
bedroom. The very r i f l e that fired the bullet
which was found right there, in bullet number 23,
found in the garage. The bullet with the profile
of Teresa Halbach. Her DNA is on that bullet.
Now, let's t h i n k about t h a t for a
minute. That rifle was effectively seized by 11
a.m. on S a t u r d a y , November 5, when t h e SUV was
discovered on that property, because law
enforcement had control of those premises. It
was collected into evidence the next day, Sunday,
the 6 t h , as the testimony revealed.
Now, that gun is t h e only gun that could
have fired t h e bullet with Teresa Halbach's DNA

on it. All right. Well, we know Teresa Ralbach
was alive on Monday morning. We know she was
62
alive on Monday a f t e r n o o n . So t h a t b u l l e t with
her DNA had to have been fired from that gun
between Monday afternoon, October 31, and

Saturday, t h e 5th, because how else does that
bullet g e t in that garage with her DNA on it?
The bullet gets there because it comes
from the gun of Steven Avery, f r o m the shots

fired by Steven Avery, that only this man, the
defendant, knows. He told us she was shot ten
times. That's p r e t t y close. As w e say, we have
11 cartridges. She was shot with a .22 c a l i b e r
rifle. We have a .22 caliber rifle.
And what else did we find in the search?
More ammunition, - 2 2 caliber long rifle magazine,

mini mags found in the t r a i l e r of Stre --
Steven -- Steven Avery.
Teresa Halbach was shot in the head
twice. She was shot on the left side of t h e
head. How do we know that? Well, we have two

bits of information. Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, the
forensic anthropologist, told you that she
examined the cranial fragments and found, not
one, but t w o fragments t h a t showed internal
beveling consistent with a projectile, consistent
with bullet entry wounds to the left side of t h e
63
head. Remember? The parietal bone. And into
t h e back of the head, t h e occipital bone.
There's an example of the cranial damage to the
parietal bone right there. A bullet entrance
wound.
X-rays. Remember the testimony of
Mr. Olson? There's an x-ray from the parietal.
That's the inside p i c t u r e . Traces of elemental
lead. Well, lead comes from b u l l e t s . There's
the parietal and t h e occipital. Left side of the
head and the back side.
Teresa Hafbachls body was loaded into

the rear of an SUV a f t e r she was shot. How do we
know that? The defendant t o l d us they did that.
Well, we have Sherry Culhane and Nick Stahlke to
tell us about that.
This particular photograph here shows
t h e presence of a stain on the right rear well
plastic molding. A s t a i n that Mr. Stahlke told
us was consistent with hair. With bloody hair.
But that's not the only blood in t h e
back. We have the cargo door, t h e tailgate area
where you have impact stains, you have dropping

passive gravity stains. All blood s t a i n s . All
blood belonging to Teresa Halbach. Clearly,
64
corroborating t h e f a c t , a s the d e f e n d a n t told u s ,
t h a t h e r body was placed in and out of that
vehicle.
He told us t h a t her body was burned. It
was mutilated i n t h e fire pit behind Avery's
garage. How do we know? Well, let's look at the

site of the general layout. We have the
defendant's trailer, the van, Mr. Avery's trailer
and the burn area a l l in immediate close
proximity. And you remember the defendant told
us it only takes a minute to walk between his
place and S t e v e n Avery's. The burn area contains
human remains. Remember, the silent witness.
Tom Sturdivant and Rod Pevytoe. Mr.
Sturdivant, the one who began to find the remains
of Teresa Halbach. The r e m a i n s which w e r e

p r o v i d e d t o D r . E i s e n b e r g from this b u r n p i t just
a s t h e d e f e n d a n t said.
As Dr. Eisenberg told us, this was t h e
first bit of forensic e v i d e n c e from that fire
pit. Now, all you have to do is l o o k at that

box. Those are the remains of Teresa Halbach.
If that's not mutilation, if that's not b u r n i n g

to the point of mutilation, to the point of
destroying, as best they could, her remains, I
65
?
don't know what is.

Remember Mr. Pevytoe telling us,
Dr. E i s e n b e r g and S h e r r y Culhane, this piece of
bone recovered from the p i t had t h e muscle tissue
of Teresa Halbach. This was tested and the DNA
c o n f i r m s a match t o Teresa Halbach. There's no
doubt that it is her remains in the pit just as
t h e defendant told you.
B u t as if that's n o t enough, do we have
any more? Dr. Eisenberg told us that there were

representative samples from almost every bone in
the skeleton of T e r e s a Halbach t h a t w a s found in
that burn pit. You remember this photograph?
She was assisted by Trooper Austin from the
Wisconsin State P a t r o l , who p u t together this
diagram r e f l e c t i n g t h e -- the bone fragments
which were recovered from head to toe. There's
no doubt that she was burned in t h a t p i t , that
she was mutilated in that p i t .
And if we needed more, we have more.

Dr. Simley. Tooth No. 31. T h e molar. He
fracture matched i t t o g e t h e r , compared it w i t h
the dental x-rays he received from Teresa's
dentist, and was telling you t h a t it was very
consistent, h i g h l y consistent with Teresa
66
Halbach.
So, you have DNA, you have the defendant
telling us, you have a dentist confirming all
what t h e defendant told us, it is h e r remains in

that burn pit. He told you that a van seat and
tires were thrown upon the fire. Is there any

doubt o f that? There is no d o u b t .
Remember the testimony -- excuse me --
of Special Agent Pevytoe, with 27 years

experience in the Arson Bureau for the Wisconsin
Department of Justice, examining more closely the
pit and its remains. And what did h e tell us?
He told us many things. Steel-belted wire from
radial tires was harvested from that pit. And
when he observed that w i r e , there were bone

fragments in that wire. So we know the'tires
were used to consume Teresa Halbach. We also
know t i r e s were used, b u t he could tell you that
encrusted-like surface of the ground from the
tires being consumed and melting down, from the
smell, he could confirm there were tires.
He also commented on this, Exhibit 170.
The implements of mutilation. You can still see
wire from steel-belted radial tire. There's the
p i c t u r e from t h e s c e n e as it was. You can see a
67
I
t i r e i n the background and t h e van seat.
And, as Agent Pevytoe told us, this b a l l

of wire right here i s steel-belted r a d i a l tires,
and i n t h a t spool of w i r e were more remains, when
he first saw them, o f Teresa Halbach. He s a i d
there were many tires, multiple tires, at least
five, probably more. Who knows h o w many radial

tires t h a t weren't steel-belted w e r e used i n t h e
i n c i n e r a t i o n of Teresa Halbach? He told us that
fires -- fired excellent source of fuel,
B u t he also told you about the van seat.
This van seat. A van seat, for all intents and
purposes, i s going to take two people to pick up
and put on t h e fire. Agent Pevytoe told you that
the polyurethane in that seating is l i k e solid
gasoline. It's a fuel that's roughly the
equivalent of the fuel in the tires, that you're
going to g e t quite a blaze from a tire. You can

have j u s t a couple of t i r e s and have a flame
that's going to go back and f o r t h , three, four,
five f e e t . Couple more t i r e s in, you might have
one that's going to go nine or t e n f e e t with a

great deal of heat. Enough heat to consume a
body.
The defendant told us that Teresa
68
-- -
Halbach's SUV, h e r Rav 4 , w a s driven to the p i t

area, as they call it. To the salvage yard. To
a point in t h e yard as f a r away from Avery's
trailer, f a r away from the defendant's trailer,
in the far corner.
The defendant told you in his confession

that t h e vehicle was covered w i t h branches and a
car hood as w e t a l k e d about earlier. Well, we

have the picture upon recovery t h a t night.
T h e r e ' s t h e c a r hood, t h e fence p o s t and the
other items. Earlier in the day, upon its
i n i t i a l discovery, another view. Branches on
t o p , boxes, cardboard, and there's the hood, j u s t
as t h e d e f e n d a n t told us. The license p l a t e s

w e r e removed. You r e c a l l t h e testimony and
stipulation. They were found by a firefighter in
an abandoned car on that property.

But here's a key point. In that
statement the defendant tells us that S t e v e n
Avery opened t h e hood of that vehicle. How do we
know? Well, based on that statement on March 1,
they swabbed t h e hood and obtained a DNA profile
on that hood. A DNA profile of Steven Avery.
Only the killer and his accomplice would know
that, to look t h e r e , because law enforcement had
69
-
not looked there before. And n o t until he told
them to, is when they found this.
The garage floor was cleaned with
gasoline, p a i n t thinner, and bleach. Remember
the testimony -- excuse me -- of John E r t l .
Mr. Ertl t o l d u s that one of h i s duties f o r the
crime l a b is to come in and check areas f o r
possible blood s t a i n residue. And one of t h e

tools they use is a -- is a s p r a y called luminol,
because it reacts to a -- a number of items. But
most importantly it reacts to blood.
But when asked, what else does it react
to? H e said, bleach. It reacts "vigorously", I

believe was his word, to bleach, just as it does
to blood. And although subsequent testing f o u n d
no blood, t h e luminol reacted to bleach. Bleach
used to c l e a n the stain i n the garage. Paint
thinner, bleach. Recovered items.
But here's a critical fact. The
defendant's blue jeans. Exhibit 58. Those
certainly look like bleach s t a i n s to me. The
defendant told the officers on March 1, before he
gave his statement, that these were the p a n t s he
was wearing when they asked him, hey, w e heard
from somebody else that you had bleach on your
70
pants. He s a i d , yeah, there is the bleach.
There are the pants.
Now, it seems to me the last time that I

spilled bleach on any of my clothes, unless I
knew it, unless I saw it, you don't really
recognize that there's bleach on there until
t h e y q r e washed. The d e f e n d a n t is t r y i n g to sell
you a bill of goods s a y i n g , well, 1 -- I didn't
bend over, I didn't get dirty, but I decided to
wash my pants even though I j u s t p u t them on an

hour or t w o earlier. I don't t h i n k so.
The defendant told you that the key f o r
Teresa's vehicle was p u t , by Mr. Avery, in his
bedroom. The k e y was discovered in a search in
the defendant's bedroom. Now, that search

occurred on November 8.
Teresa Halbach's clothes. He told us
they were burned in the pit, b u t why should w e
believe him? Well, w e have the five D a i s y
Fuentes rivets recovered in the burn a r e a . We

know that Teresa had a pair of Daisy Fuentes
jeans from h e r sister, K a t i e . Exhibit 13. A
pair very much like these. A pair with six

rivets. Rivets that look just l i k e that.
You remember Agent Sturdivant telling
71
you about a zipper p u l l , also, t h a t he found when
he first began searching that b u r n area on
November 8. So we have a z i p p e r pull, we have
Daisy Fuentes r i v e t s , and I t h i n k he a l s o told
you some grommets t h a t a r e , no doubt, f r o m h e r
shoes.
The defendant told you t h a t his uncle's
finger had a cut on it at t h e time t h e SUV was
hidden in the corner of the salvage y a r d . All

right. There's multiple p o i n t s that corroborate
this. A search of t h e d e f e n d a n t , S t e v e n Avery.
You r e c a l l this picture with a cut on his hand.
Interestingly enough, the right hand. The hand
that you would p u t a key, if you were going to

start a car with your right hand, you'd p u t it in
that i g n i t i o n . And where i s the s t a i n ? Right
n e x t t o the i g n i t i o n . Right here. Ignition is
r i g h t there behind t h e s t e e r i n g wheel, and
there's t h e s t a i n . So i f you were actively
b l e e d i n g , that's what you would expect to see.
Blood right where you would expect to see it.
But there was blood elsewhere.
Remember? Steven Avery's blood was on the CD
case and on t h e car seats, corroborating t h e fact
that he was a c t i v e l y bleeding, that he did have a
72
c u t on the day that that vehicle was hidden.
We have burn b a r r e l contents. Defendant
s a i d he saw items i n t h e burn b a r r e l . Well, we
know t h a t he was right, because recovered f r o m
the b u r n b a r r e l were v a r i o u s electronic devices,
or at least t h e i r r e m a i n s . A canon A 3 1 0
Powershot camera, a Motorola RAZR phone, a p a l m
p i l o t , a l l recovered f r o m t h e b a r r e l . Things
that o n l y the killers would know.
We have a couple more. We have more
corroboration. J o d i Stachowski testified that
she called Steven Avery twice on October 31. The
defendant t o l d us that she called twice on t h e
31st.
Before we get to that, we have even t w o
more p o i n t s . And i t ' s almost like it's like

the -- the elephant in t h e room that no one's
paying attention to f o r corroboration. There are

t w o points. The richness of t h e detail provided
by t h e defendant in that confession tells us t h a t
it's t r u e . You can't have that rich of a detail

unless you w e r e there, u n l e s s you e x p e r i e n c e d it,
u n l e s s you lived through it.
And the other one is the f a c t that
everything he said, everything he said in that
73
story, corroborates Steven Avery's involvement in
this. There was nothing inconsistent that
suggested anyone else other than Steven Avery was
his partner in this heinous act.
I All right. Party to a crime. What he
did. Let's talk a b o u t that.
First degree intentional homicide,
mutilation of a corpse, second degree sexual
assault. I want to talk a l i t t l e b i t a b o u t
" p a r t y to the c r i m e " before we review,
specifically, how t h e evidence applies to the
defendant. One is a party to the crime if they
d i r e c t l y commit it or they intentionally aid and
abet t h e p e r s o n who's committing t h e crime.
The Court has just instructed you, and
l e t me emphasize, a person intentionally aids and
abets the commission of a crime when acting with
knowledge or belief that another person is
committing or intends to commit a crime. He
knowingly either a s s i s t s the person, he helps the
person, or he is ready, willing to assist, and
the person who's doing the act knows of the
willingness to assist.
All right. So let's talk a b o u t that
knowledge component. Think back. He opens the

door, and he knocks, and he hears screaming. He
hears screaming for h e l p . He goes in and he s e e s

her tied to t h e bed, cuffed, spread eagle. And
he hears the words again, help me. Clearly,
there's knowledge right there. H e knows there's
a crime afoot. Whatever is happening, it isn't
good and he knows it.
B u t the c r i t i c a l fact is the invitation
by t h e d e f e n d a n t . The invitation to have sex
with Teresa Halbach. The invitation to rape her.
And he chooses. He decides to accept. So he
participates. He directly commits second degree

sexual assault because he rapes her. He a s s i s t s .
He helps kill her. He rapes her. He cuts her
throat. Remember? The defendant stabs her in
stomach and he gives the knife to the defendant
and says, cut her. He cuts her.
He helps uncuff h e r . He holds her down
to make sure she doesn't try to get away, a f t e r
they've stabbed h e r and choked her, so that she
can be tied up. He helps to carry her to the
garage. He helps put her i n t o t h e Rav 4 a f t e r
Avery shoots her. He watches h e r while he g e t s
t h e gun.
He h e l p s c a r r y her on t h e B l a c k Jack
75
creeper to the f i r e p i t . And he helps t h r o w h e r
on the f i r e . He helps putting f u e l on the f i r e ;
t i r e s and wood and b r u s h and the van seat. All
affirmative acts. All things t h a t h e did. He
helped.
He gets t h e golf cart so t h a t -- to make
it easier t o collect a v a n seat, a wood cabinet,
and whatever else, and tires. Got t o work fast
before everyone g e t s home. And he watches. He's
ready, willing and able to assist as Steven Avery
tends to the incineration of Teresa Halbach.
He's there. He knows what's going on. He saw
the body p a r t s . You b e t he did. And he told his
cousin that he did. We know that to be true.

Now, before we do that, let's talk a
little bit more about these jury instructions.
First degree intentional homicide. The
d e f e n d a n t , o r a person w i t h w h o m h e was acting,
in this case, Steven Avery, caused t h e death of
Teresa Halbach. T h e r e is no doubt.
"Cause" means t h e defendant's act or
acts, o r t h e person w i t h whom h e was a c t i n g , was
a substantial factor i n producing her death.

Well, cutting h e r throat, tying her up and
c a r r y i n g her t o t h e garage so that Steven Avery
76
can shoot him -- shoot her is c e r t a i n l y a
substantial a c t in furtherance of her death. A
substantial factor in producing her death.
C l e a r l y , they i n t e n d e d to k i l l h e r .
A f t e r they're done raping h e r , they have a little
chat in t h e front room to decide what we're going

to do next. That's t h e p o i n t they decide to kill
her. That's the point where he had the
knowledge. He knew that they were g o i n g to

commit a crime. He knew t h e y were g o i n g to k i l l
h e r because they had to kill h e r , because she'd
been to the A v e r y Salvage Yard many times before.
She knew her k i l l e r s . She certainly knew Steven
Avery. So to cover up t h e sexual a s s a u l t , they
had to kill her, a n d they d i d . Those are t h e
acts.
Now, I'm going to comment on you've been
given what we call in the trade, "a lesser
included offense" called "first degree reckless
homicide". At c l e a r l y , a t a minimum, his
behavior is reckless. It's c l e a r l y u t t e r
disregard for human l i f e . The callousness by

which he conducted himself. Turning a cold ear
to h e r p l e a s f o r h e l p . Don't do it. Do the

right thing. Please. B u t he t u r n e d a deaf ear
77
and he didn't do the right thing. He wanted to
do what he wanted.
Well, that, at a minimum -- that is so

c l e a r l y beyond reckless. The evidence calls for
a verdict of guilty on f i r s t degree murder as a
party to the c r i m e . He helped kill h e r . And
while it's t r u e that we make no bones about it
that Steven Avery was t h e one who f i r e d the gun,
he was clearly assisted by Brendan Dassey.
There is no question on mutilation of
the corpse. Why? You have to b u r n t h e body. We

g o t to get r i d of the evidence. F i r e is better
than discarding a body i n some pond some near --

somewhere nearby. A f i r e will consume the
remains. There'll be nothing left. We'll g e t
away. Or so they thought.
Second degree sexual assault only
requires t w o elements. Did he have sexual
intercourse with her, and he d i d so without her
consent. Well, I think "without consent" is
pretty apparent here. And he told you. He

didn't have to tell you. That whole confession,
he c o u l d have laid i t a l l on Steven Avery, b u t he
didn't. No one had to -- he didn't have to admit
that he raped her, but he did. We know he d i d
78
it.
All right. Now, let's look at the
evidence from another perspective. Let's look at
the evidence from the perspective of what he
didnrt do, of the choices he made, because it's
important. While we are free to choose our

actions, we are n o t free to choose the
consequences of o u r actions. And this is about
consequences. This is about j u s t i c e .
W h a t f s t h e first choice as we go back
and think about the evidence? What was the first
choice he really had to make here? Well,

remember, it's between 4 and 4:30, and h e ' s over
there at Steven Avery's trailer, and he s e e s her
t i e d to the bed. He's a s k e d , do you want some?
It's decision time.
Well, he c o u l d have tried to rescue h e r .
But I'll g r a n t him that. He's not g o i n g to pull
t h a t off. We all know that. B u t what were t h e
choices that he had? He could run, leave, call
9-1-1. He could j u s t say, Uncle Steve, you can't
do this. He could have at l e a s t t r i e d to talk
him o u t of it. He could have simply left and

said, no, to t h e invitation. And when he got
back at 5:00, he could have told his mother. As
79
1
we know in t h e call, and as s h e rightly noted, I
would have p u t you in the car and w e would have
left.
The defendant was not someone who was in
t h e wrong place at the wrong time. H e was i n the
r i g h t place at the right time. He was the only
person who could have saved her, and he chose n o t
to save h e r . Why? Because he wanted to know
what it was l i k e . That was the choice he made.
A second choice. Showing his
complicity. He didn't have to go back.

Remember, he's at home at 5:00. H e hadn't done
a n y t h i n g y e t b u t see what was l i k e l y to happen.
He hadn't done a n y t h i n g but receive an
invitation. At 5:00, he didn't have to go back.
He could have told Blaine. He could have t o l d

his mother. He could have -- I g o t to go trick
or treating, Blaine, you g o t to take me. Or,

mom, c a n I go with you? B u t he didn't. He chose
to go back. That's t h e decision he made.
The third choice. Okay. He's s t i l l got
a chance to rape or not to rape Teresa Halbach.
T r y to rescue her probably wouldn't have been too
successful. He could have ran out and called
9-1-1. He could have left. Or, you know what?
80
A t l e a s t he c o u l d have s a i d , no. But he d i d n ' t .
He chose to rape h e r . Even w i t h h e r saying,
don't do it, do the right t h i n g , tell him to
stop. But h e d i d n ' t .

S o t h i n k about the decisions t h a t he had
to make along t h e way j u s t i n a matter of
moments. H e ' s g o t to go i n t o that room. He's

g o t to take his shirt o f f . Got to take his p a n t s
off. He's going to take his shoes o f f . He's
g o i n g to take his underwear o f f . He's going to
climb i n t o that bed and he's g o i n g to penetrate
her.
All steps along t h e way. Decisions.
Stop anywhere. Say, no, I don' t want t o do t h i s ,
Uncle Steve. B u t he didn't. H e g e t s done and
they go into t h e o t h e r room, a n d he g e t s his --
Instead of making a c a l l , instead o f r e c e i v i n g
the thanks from the Halbachs, i n s t e a d of
receiving that adulation from t h e -- from t h e
family f o r reporting this crime and saving t h e i r
daughter, i n s t e a d of receiving t h a n k s from them,
he's receiving t h a n k s from S t e v e n Avery. Ata
boy, that s how you do it. Thatfs t h e choice.
He c o u l d have chosen t h a n k s f r o m t h e Halbachs,
b u t he chose t h a n k s from his uncle.
81
Fourth choice. The decision to help
kill her. All right. He'd already f o u n d out
what he wanted to know. He found o u t about sex.

He didn't have to kill her. Could have l e t h e r
go. At least a conviction for rape is better
than a conviction for murder. Could have called
9-1-1, couldn't you. You know what? At that

point he probably wasn't going to call 9-1-1, but
he could have s a i d , no, I don't want to do it.
He could have left. He could have gone back to
his trailer. But he didntt.
So he decides. He goes back into that

bedroom and h i s uncle stabs h e r , and he takes the
knife and he cuts h e r throat right across here
above t h e Adam's apple. Instead of saying, no,
instead of leaving, that's what he chooses to do.
There's a second p a r t . H e also chooses
to help carry h e r to the garage. He chooses to
help uncuff her, to hold h e r down while Uncle
Steve ties h e r up. He helps carry her to t h e
garage. He could have said, no. H e could have
r a n o u t that door and s a i d , I can't do it
anymore. I j u s t can't do it. This is wrong.

B u t he didn't.
Put her in the SUV, or, excuse me, on
82
t h e garage floor and he's left alone w i t h h e r .
Now, think about that. He's left alone for a

moment or two. Probably a minute. He knows from
their conversation that Avery's g o i n g t o go g e t
that gun. He could have r a n out that door. He
did n o t have t o be there. But he stayed as the
silent sentinel for Teresa Halbach's last moments
while his uncle fired 11 s h o t s into h e r body.
The f i n a l choice was his choice to help

dispose of t h e body, to help cover up this c r i m e ,
to l i e about it. He gets the cart. He g a t h e r s
t h e f u e l , as we've j u s t said, and they burn her,
they incinerate her in their effort to destroy
the evidence. The mutilation was made and done
for the p u r p o s e of concealing these b r u t a l ,
heinous acts. That's why that corpse was
mutilated. That's why it was burned. That's why
the f i r e was tended with t h e shovel and the rake,
to break up into pieces, to create more surface
area to burn the body quicker, more e f f i c i e n t l y .
The cleanup and the coverup. Let's
clean up the garage. Let's hide the SUV. Letts
burn the b e d d i n g . L e t ' s b u r n her clothes. Could
have stopped anywhere. But he didn't.

And if he is as innocent as he would
83
have you believe, he didn't have to l i e to
Detective OINeill. He who helps the guilty
shares the crime. Was he t h e r e ? Absolutely. Is

there any doubt? T h i s is beyond any doubt. He
c l e a r l y was t h e r e . The richness of the detail,
the corroborative evidence answers that question
as does it the second. Did he help? Did he
assist? Was he ready, willing a n d able to
assist? Yes. Did he assist? Yes, he did. Did
he help? D i d he help Teresa Halbach? No. Did
he h e l p Steve Avery? Absolutely.
The defendant cannot escape the
responsibility for his actions by claiming they
were the ideas, that i t was t h e f a u l t of Steven

Avery, because, in essence, this case comes down
to this very point. The invitation to
participate in t h e s e monstrous a c t s clearly
speaks to Steven Avery. No doubt. B u t t h i s case
isn't about the invitation, this case is about
t h e acceptance of that invitation, and the
acceptance of that invit -- invitation speaks to
the defendant, Brendan Dassey .

The evidence calls for verdicts of
guilty on first degree murder, for second degree
sexual assault a n d f o r mutilation of a corpse. A

weakened sense of responsibility does not weaken
t h e fact of responsibility. And there's only one
verdict. Those are verdicts of guilty. And we
a s k you to r e t u r n t h o s e verdicts.
On behalf of the prosecution team, Mr.
Kratz, Mr. Gahn, Mr. Fassbender and Mr. Wiegert,

we thank you f o r your time and your
consideration.
THE COURT: All right. We w i l l recess
until 2 : O O . Uh, ladies and gentlemen, a g a i n , I'll

advise you the time f o r deliberations has not yet
arrived so don't discuss this or a n y t h i n g about t h e
case amongst yourselves. All r i g h t . We're
adjourned .
(Recess had a t 12:48 a.m.)
(Reconvened a t 2:05 p.m. Jury in)
THE COURT: Good a f t e r n o o n . Is t h e defense
ready to proceed?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Yes, Judge, thank you.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: In the opening, I -- I
explained to you that a good example of a trial is a
novel. There's a --
THE COURT: Counsel, you may wish to
turn the microphone --
85
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Oh.
THE COURT: -- on.
ATTORNEY E'REMGEN. Thank you, v e r y much.
Can you hear me? Okay. Sorry about that. I
don't know if you're familiar with S h e r l o c k
Holmes. I tend to like Sherlock Holrnes novels

and there's a novel called t h e Memoirs of
Sherlock H o l m e s . And it's actually kind of a
compilation of stories, and one of the stories is
called the Silver Blaze.
And if you're familiar with Sherlock
Holmes and Sherlock Holmes stories, there's two
main characters. There's Sherlock Holmes, who is
t h e intelligent p r i v a t e detective, and there's
Dr. Watson, h i s sidekick, who he often has do the

grunt work. Dr. Watson goes and collects
statements from witnesses, talks to t h e police.
Dr. Watson is the one who is, essentially, doing
all t h e legwork.
And i n the S i l v e r B l a z e , Dr. Watson goes
and talks to all of the witnesses and the police
officer. And he comes back to -- to Holmes, who

has a tendency to sit there and puff on h i s p i p e
w h i l e he's l i s t e n i n g t o Dr. Watson, and he starts
puffing away as Dr. Watson e x p l a i n s a n d runs
86
down, this is what we know. We know this, we
know t h i s , we know t h i s . And as h e r s t a l k i n g ,
Sherlock Holmes interrupts him and says, well,
what about the dog?
Watson doesn't understand, and just
continues to keep r e c i t i n g what he's learned from
t h e investigation. And he be -- begins t o
c o n t i n u e t o r e c i t e t h e investigation. And,
again, one -- Holmes interrupts and says, well,

what a b o u t the dog?
F i n a l l y , Watson says, Holmes, what do
you mean, what about the dog? And Holmes says,
what did the dog do? Watson s t a r t s sifting
through his notes and turns to Holmes and says,
the dog didn't do anything. And Holmes says,
there -- there you have it. I know who's the
killer. The k i l l e r is a person the dog knows.
Essentially, what Holmes -- The s t o r y
in -- i n Silver B l a z e is that Holmes was able to
determine that it's n o t necessarily what you
know, it's not necessarily what you see and what
you hear, sometimes i t ' s what you d o n ' t see and
what you don't hear that's as important. And
that's something that I wanted to touch upon in
this case.
There's a lot in this case that we don't
know, there's a lot in t h i s case we don't see,
and there's a lot in this case that we don't

hear. Much has been t a l k e d about DNA, and the
State focuses on DNA in t h e i r , uh, c l o s i n g . They
talk about it in the trial. They have
witnesses -- several different witnesses t h a t
e x p l a i n what DNA is. Sher -- uh, S h e r r y Culhane,
Nick S t a h l k e . DNA is a very important aspect of
this case.
But what -- what w e know i s that t h e y
tested over 180 items, over 500 i t e m s submitted
t o t h e crime l a b , not all for DNA, but items
individually. What we do know about the DNA is
t h a t none of it matches Brendan Dassey.
We do know that there are handcuffs and
l e g i r o n s that were found in Steven Avery's
residence. The same handcuffs and l e g irons that

the State brought out to show you. The same ones
t h a t have Steven Averyls DNA on them. But

nothing with Brendan Dassey. Or Teresa Halbach
f o r t h a t matter. There is no evidence of DNA

matching Bsendan Dassey on a n y of t h e e v i d e n c e
that's submitted t o this Court, to you jurors to
consider.
Nothing on the rifle. The r i f l e that
w a s used, according to t h e S t a t e , according to
the witness, to shoot Teresa Halbach. There is
blood in Steven Avery's house. They find it on
the molding. But that's not Brendan Dassey's.

They f i n d it in his bathroom. But that, as well,
is not Brendan Dassey's.

We do know that they decided n o t to test
certain items. The creepers. Now, t h e creepers
seem to be a pretty significant piece of evidence
f o r the State. But what w e do n o t hear and do
n o t see is any evidence that suggests t h e
creepers were a c t u a l l y used by Brendan Dassey.
Mr. Fallon mentions in his closing

argument that this is how it happened. He
analogizes it to a f u n e r a l procession. Using the
creeper to move t h e body from one place to
another. But there's no blood f o u n d on the

creeper. And, yet, as important a piece of
evidence that this creeper apparently is, if it's

b r o u g h t up by the State as being the item that
moved this body to the burn pit, why is it not

tested f o r DNA? The answer we received from
Sherry -- Sherry Culhane was, no one asked her
to. No one asked her to test it for DNA.
89
"
She looked for blood. That made sense,
because t h e theory of t h e State's case is that
t h i s piece of evidence, t h i s creeper, about
three- four-feet long with wheels, was used to
wheel Teresa Halbach to the burn p i t . Yet, they
decide n o t to even test t h e creeper for DNA.
The knives. She indicated that t h e y
received a number of k n i v e s . The p o l i c e went
t h r o u g h Steven Avery's house, took out every
k n i f e i n the k i t c h e n , sent t h e items down to t h e
crime lab. The crime l a b looked for blood and
that w a s it. T h e r e was no blood on them. So
they stopped. Why? They were told -- they w e r e
n o t told to test f o r DNA.
Now, S t a t e points o u t during the t r i a l

when asked q u e s t i o n s of S h e r r y Culhane, well,
could it have been wiped clean? And she s a i d ,
sure. Would you have been able to obtain DNA if

it had been wiped clean? Probably not. B u t the
bullet would -- had no visible blood, and she
t a l k e d about how t h e y washed the bullet to be
able to tell if t h e r e was DNA, and that they d i d
find DNA. Teresa Halbach's DNA. So it is
possible. Why d i d they choose n o t to wash the
knives? They chose not to.
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Brendan's jeans. They had bleach on
them. They appeared to be a significant piece of

evidence. The State p u l l e d t h e m o u t , showed you
the jeans again. When t h e y tested it, they found
no blood. If he were crouched down on t h e

ground, as was presented to you by one of the
State's witnesses, why isn't there blood? They
could have tested f o r DNA. But, again, they
chose n o t to. Didn't f i n d the blood. They chose

n o t to test.
And t h e hairs. Again, they chose n o t to

test. It's too d i f f i c u l t . Too much.
They went through yards and yards of
soil. You saw t h e pictures. Three, four, five
crime lab t e c h n i c i a n s d i g g i n g t h r o u g h the s o i l to
f i n d m i n u t e pieces of bone and teeth, which they
found. The box that Mr. F a l l o n referred to,
showed you the p i c t u r e o f , t h e y found minute
pieces of bone by s i f t i n g inch b y i n c h , piece by
piece through the dirt.
But the o f f i c e r s a i d i t w a s just too

d i f f i c u l t t o go through hundreds o r thousands of
h a i r s i n a vacuum. Again, that was their choice
n o t to f u r -- fully investigate and fully
c o r r o b o r a t e Bxendan Dassey's statement.
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The s h e l l casings on the garage f l o o r
and the Rambler hood. If you recall, I believe
that the first technician from t h e crime lab,
Mr. John E r t l , came, testified, indicated that

when he arrove (phonetic) -- when he a r r i v e d a t
t h e , uh, Avery Salvage Yard, the f i r s t t h i n g he
noted with t h e Rav 4 was t h a t i t might be, urn --
it might be -- excuse m e -- it might need t o be
taken immediately t o t h e crime lab because of the
in climate weather.
One thing he also noted was that instead
of processing the Rambler hood and the cardboard
box on top of t h e Rav 4, they sent it down
immediately w i t h the Rav 4 to be processed,
fingerprinted, checked f o r blood. Steven Avery
has t h i s cut finger and h e r s leaving blood
t h r o u g h o u t the e n t i r e Rav 4 . Certainly there
should be o r may be some on t h e Rambler hood.
Rather t h a n p r o c e s s it on the f i e l d , they sent it
to t h e crime lab.
That was t h e intent of t h e crime lab
tech. Was it ever checked? No. DNA person
indicated, no one asked me to. The fingerprint
analysis. No one asked me to check f o r
fingerpxints. TWO, apparently, vital pieces of
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information, pieces of evidence that one of their
own crime lab t e c h n i c i a n s s e n t t o the lab t h e y
chose n o t to test.
The bedding and the carpet. The bedding
and the carpet is important to note that d e s p i t e
the statement where Brendan indicates in h i s
statement to t h e o f f i c e r that bedding was thrown
into the fire, there was other bedding that was
taken. The investigators felt it was necessary,
important enough to look at, b u t not t e s t it.
The carpet. Never t e s t e d . Never checked.
The investigators -- Or excuse me. The
crime lab, uh, witnesses all indicated, we would
have checked had someone t o l d us. So this
investigation, they chose not to test items that
didn't match with their theory. They'd already
decided what happened in this case. They needed
to prove t h e i r t h e o r y . The hairs, they're not

going to help their theory. The vacuum's n o t
going to help. Only time they would have looked
f o r DNA is when there was blood or the bullet.
The fingerprint analyst testified that
he did print Brendan. He also f o u n d a number of
different prints throughout t h e R a v 4 , including
on the outside of the Rav 4 where, one, you would
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suspect, i f t h e y ' r e placing brush, a wooden p o s t ,
a hood, would have placed t h e i r hand upon it.
And he was able to a c t u a l l y detect a p r i n t . He
was able to actually process the print, save the
print, and compare the print. And when h e
compared t h e p r i n t , didn't match the print t h e y
had for Brendan Dassey. None of the prints
within the vehicle matched the p r i n t t h e y have
for Brendan Dassey.
The fingerprint analyst indicated t h a t
he c o u l d have checked the handcuffs. It was a
smooth surface. Wasn't r u s t e d . H e could have
looked f o r f i n g e r p r i n t s , b u t no one asked them
to.
Could have looked a t the l e g i r o n s .
Smooth surface. But no one asked them t o .
The creeper. He c o u l d have l o o k e d at
t h e creeper. If the creeper were used by Brendan
Dassey, if Brendan Dassey a c t u a l l y helped use the
creeper to move Teresa Halbach's body into t h e
burn p i t , then it could have been checked f o r
fingerprints. B u t it never was because nobody
asked them to.
The same with the Rambler hood and t h e
rake a n d t h e shovel. If they were, according to
94
t h e theory, u s i n g t h e rake and t h e shovel t o move
around t h e body p a r t s i n t h e burn p i t , then that,
too, could have been t e s t e d . B u t no one asked
them to test it.
The State i n d i c a t e d i n o p e n i n g
statements t h a t this was t h e -- a n investigation
of h i s t o r i c proportions i n the s t a t e of
Wisconsin. From number of individuals involved,
to t h e c o s t of the investigation, the resources
that were used, yet they chose not to test
a n y t h i n g t h a t didn't fit i n t o t h e i r t h e o r y of
what they believe occurred.
What we don't see up to this point, and
have n o t heard, i s anything s c i e n t i f i c that
matches Brendan Dassey, t h a t come -- that places
Brendan Dassey a t Steven Avery's at t h e date and
time that Teresa Halbach is killed. No DNA. No
fingerprints.
If Brendan Dassey is to be believed, and

the statements he gave to t h e officer, then e v e r y
d e t a i l in t h e statements must be corroborated.
Not p i c k i n g and choosing the o n e s that fit your
theory. The S t a t e h a s picked and chosen t h o s e
details and presented them to you t h a t f i t t h e i r
theory. B u t t h e r e are a number of uncorroborated
95
details and inconsistencies that they choose to
ignore.
Brendan claims t h e y used the creeper to
move t h e body into the f i r e pit. That is what
was, uh, p r e s e n t e d by Mr. Fallon just rec -- just
p r e v i o u s t o my closing argument. Again, a s I
point o u t , there's no blood found on e i t h e r of
the two creepers. Never processed. Never asked
to process f o r DNA. They would have tested it if
someone had asked them t o . An uncorroborated
detail.
The throat. What's i n t e r e s t i n g to p o i n t
o u t about t h e State's t h e o r y is t h e State
indicates they believe, they've argued to you

already, that Steven Avery first stabbed Teresa
Halbach in t h e stomach and Brendan Dassey slit
her t h r o a t . Nick S t a h l k e f r o m the crime lab
testified, and did indicate, that if a person
were -- had their t h r o a t s l i t and were alive, it
would likely cause what's called "blood
splatter".
This is Steven Avery's bedroom. This is

the bed. T h i s is where the State indicates
Teresa Halbach was lying with her arms pinned up

against t h e headboard. The headboard, itself. A
96
wooden dresser. A wall. And, if you could see
further, the carpeting.
If, according to Nick -- according to
Nick Stahlke, if she were alive when, according

to Brendan's statement, he slit her throat, there
would be blood throughout that bedroom. There'd

be blood on t h e walls, on the headboard, on the
posts, on the furnishings, on the carpet. No
evidence has been presented to you that anything
such as any blood, any splatter, any indication
of blood in that area. There's been no testimony
and no evidence presented to you by the State.
If you recall, I believe John Ertl
t e s t i f i e d that when they did a luminol test, what
Mr. Fallon in -- indicated, as well, in his

closing argument, it became -- it came positive
right behind the John Deere. When asked, John
Ertl indicated that the stain appeared to come
and abut up to those boxes. So they did luminol
t h e box. A foot-and-a-half up on the boxes.

Why would they go a foot-and-a-half up?
Well, if there were blood splatter, blood

splatter -- splatter can go up. There might be
evidence on the box. There should be evidence on
the box. And there wasn't any evidence on the

box.
Again, the State points out that you
must believe Brendan Dassey's statement. If
Brendan Dassey's statement is believable, he says
to the o f f i c e r s that she was placed into the Rav
4 and shot in the Rav 4. That's what he
initially says to the police. No b l o o d s p l a t t e r

evidence. There's a swipe of blood. The
indication of bloody hair. And as was pointed
o u t by t h e State in their closing argument,
passive blood drops which fall to the -- towards
t h e ground d u e to gravity, not s p l a t t e r .
Again, in Brendan Dassey's statement, if
he is to be believed, every detail should be
corroborated. Those axe not corroborated.
Neither is the mattress. He tells the, uh,
officer that there's a blood stain about that big
on the bedding. About six to eight inches in

diameter. They never found any stain. Didn't
find any bedding. But they certainly didn't find
any stain on the mattress. They, in fact, if you
recall, asked him, did you flip the mattress

over? But there was no stain.
Again, if you believe Brendan Dassey's
statement, a s the State tells you you must
98
believe, then there should be rope fibers, or at
least rope. Somewhere on this table of evidence
should be some rope. Rope u s e d to tie Teresa
Halbach's arms, legs and hands.
As I pointed o u t to you before, the

State commented that Steven Avery did a good job
cleaning up the house. That's why you don't find
evidence connecting Brendan, or Steven for that
matter, to any injuries that might have occurred
to Teresa Halbach w i t h i n the house.
But if he's doing such a good job at
cleaning up the house, why such a sloppy job
leaving blood in the Rav 4 ? H i s DNA is on t h e
leg irons. His DNA is on the handcuffs. If he
wiped those clean, his wouldn't show up. But
only h i s show up. N o t Teresa's. And certainly

not Brendanls. Another uncorroborated detail in
Brendan's statement.
And where is Teresa's h a i r ? Could be in
that vacuum. It's possible. I'll g r a n t you

that. B u t t h e State chose not to look in the
vacuum. Could be in that Bissell, I suppose, but
they chose n o t to look in the Bissell either. If

there was hair, according to Brendan's statement,
Steven kept it on his dresser. I think he first
99
s a i d he p u t it on the counter. Upon further
q u e s t i o n i n g by t h e o f f i c e r , h e changed i t and
said, well, I t h i n k it's on the dresser. And not
a l o c k of h a i r , as M r . Fallon pointed out. He

told the officers cut her hair right o f f .
The S t a t e brought in evidence of a
cousin who claimed that Brendan told her, in
December of 2005, that he did see Teresa Halbach.
In her statement, s h e says, he s a i d s h e was
pinned i n a c h a i r . Contrary t o t h e State's
theory. Probably why, when O f f i c e r Wiegert was
questioned about t h a t on t h e stand, he referred
to h e r b e i n g pinned in t h e bedroom. N o t pinned
in the chair. Kayla said, pinned to the chair.
When asked, O f f i c e r Wiegert said, pinned in the
bedroom. Why? Because there is no chair that
they c o u l d f i n d that would match that s t o r y .
Brendan's d r a w i n g of t h e bedroom.
C e r t a i n l y it doesn't have to be to scale, but I
think it should at least match where items are.
If t h e bed w e r e a l l the way up against the wall,
then that drawing should show the same. That's

a l l t h e way up a g a i n s t the wall.
Another uncorroborated d e t a i l , the
knife. Where's t h e k n i f e ? According to
100
Brendan's statement, if it's to be believed, as
the State w a n t s you t o believe, it should be in

the middle console of that R a v 4 . That's what he
t o l d the police when he first t a l k e d to them. He
said it was in between the front seats of the R a v

4. No knife was found in the Rav 4.
Later, Brendan changes it and says, oh,
he cleaned it up and p u t it back in the
kitchen -- put it r i g h t back in the -- in t h e
cupboard or the cabinet. And they got all the

knives out. They checked all the knives. They
took all the knives down to the crime lab.
Nothing with blood on it. Maybe t h e r e was DNA,
but they chose not to look for the DNA.
There i s n o t h i n g i n Brendan's statement,
independent of Brendan's statement, that
corroborates that there was any sexual
intercourse. There's no physical evidence t h a t
suggests that. There's no DNA. No evidence of
semen or any other bodily fluids in the bedroom,

o n any other bedding, on t h e mattress, because it
wasn't tested.
Which leads us to the inconsistencies.

As I said before, that if you are to believe
Brendan's statement, a s t h e State wants you t o
101
believe, everything, every detail, must be
corroborated. If he is so detail-oriented, as
Mr. Fallon said, there -- s u c h concise d e t a i l ,
such clear d e t a i l , t h e n there s h o u l d n ' t be any
uncorroborated detail. And, c e r t a i n l y , what
we've seen is significant amount of
uncorroborated detail.
But there shouldn't be any
inconsistencies either. But there are plenty of
inconsistencies as well. Brendan says in his
statement, originally to the officers, I helped
carry h e r to the burn p i t . Had her by t h e feet.
As he t a l k s to the o f f i c e r s more, he starts to

add things. Well, I a c t u a l l y used the creeper.
Same creeper that was -- no blood was found.
Then they -- he says, well, actually, we

p l a c e d her body in the back of the Rav 4. If
this bloodied body was placed in the Rav 4, why
j u s t a small amount of what appears to be bloody
hair, s o m e passive blood drops on t h e door? If
this bloodied, stabbed, throat-slit body was
placed in the Rav 4 , there should be a pool of
blood. A stain a s big as t h e back of t h e cargo
area. And there is none.
The gunshots. The first person t h 9 t
102
b r i n g s up the idea that s h e w a s shot in t h e head
is O f f i c e r Wiegert. I believe he even admitted
that on t h e stand. H e agreed. Yep, I was -- I
brought it up.
Brendan says, i n i t i a l l y , it's t w o shots.
B u t he changes it. It's two shots in t h e head,

one s h o t in t h e stomach, which is okay. Doesn't
change the t h e o r y of t h e State's c a s e . They can
l i v e w i t h that. But he goes further. It's three

shots. One i n t h e head, one in t h e stomach, one
in t h e h e a r t . That's d i f f e r e n t . Then i t ' s t e n ,
which t h e y want to latch on to because of the

casings f o u n d in t h e garage.
There are bullet h o l e s i n the burn
barrel. There a r e guns t h r o u g h o u t this salvage
yard, d i f f e r e n t residences, as the testimony
showed. These people have lots of guns. It's

not unusual to see case shellings.
He f i r s t tells the o f f i c e r s that she was
s h o t in the Rav 4. T h a t were the case, there
would probably be a significant amount of blood
in the burn -- Rav 4. But there i s n ' t . Then he
g e t s back, changes it, and says, well, she was

shot on t h e f l o o r . Now, that matches. That's
good. Let's keep that statement.
103
It fits the State's theory, so it must
be r i g h t . You can i g n o r e all t h e o t h e r con --
inconsistencies. Ignore the fact that he changed
his story. Ignore t h e f a c t h e f i r s t said it w a s
in the Rav 4 . The number of times she -- she was
shot. Where she was shot. But, remember, it was
on the floor because that matches the State's
theory.
The times are inconsistent. He f i r s t
says he went t o Steven's around 4 or -- 4 or
4:30, according t o t h e videotape s t a t e m e n t . He
a l s o s a y s it was sometime after he got back
from -- from school. Sometime after 3 : 4 5 . Later
on, he says it was sometime around 6:30. When

questioned f u r t h e r , the times a r e somewhere
between 6 and 6 : 3 0 . In fact, a t the v e r y end of
t h a t v i d e o t a p e , h e says it was actually around
5:30.
Now, that might not seem like a b i g
deal. A half-hour here or half-hour t h e r e . But

it i s a big deal, because in o r d e r for it to f i t
into the State's theory, there can't be any times

that are close to 5:30, because, as the State
pointed out, Mr. Kornely called sometime around
that period of time; 5:30, 5:45, 6. As Mr.
104
Kor -- Kornely said, he wasn't sure. It could
have been anywhere in that time frame, and they
conceded. Absolutely. He called. Probably
c l o s e r to 5:30, I think, is what Mr. Fallon said,

but it probably could have been as -- 5 ~ 4 5 , as
Mr. Kornely said on the stand.

But in order for it to fit, the times
need to f i t t h e State's theory, you have to
ignore a11 the other inconsistent times. Ignore
the 5:30 at the end of t h e videotape. Ignore t h e
6 to 6:30. Pick the time that fits the theory.
But that's not your role.
At the beginning, I mentioned to you
what your role is. Actually, I'm sure you all
knew your role. Your role is to simply use
common sense, make decisions based upon the
evidence. Your role is not to be the attorneys.
Your role is n o t to decide who is the v i c t o r .
This isn't a competition. It's n o t a basketball
game where somebody has to walk away as a winner.
If you decide that you have doubt, and it's a
reasonable doubt, then you have to acquit.
Finally, what I want to talk about, and

then I'm going to actually pass on to Attorney
Edelstein to finish, and he'll talk about the
105
statements a l i t t l e f u r t h e r with you, and finish
up the closing, I want to talk about t h e sequence
of e v e n t s t h a t occur according to t h e videotape

statement of Brendan Dassey.
Initially, he tells t h e o f f i c e r s that
Teresa's stabbed by Steven Avery and then she's
tied up. He changes that and indicates that

Steven stabs Teresa, and then gives the knife to
him, and he slits her t h r o a t . And then S t e v e n
chokes h e r and then ties her up. That's what the
State has told you in their closing argument is
what happened. They've now adopted that theory
of what happened.
But does that make s e n s e ? Someone have
their throat slit and then choked? Why choke
someone who j u s t had t h e i r throat s l i t ? And if
that occurred, there should be a l o t of blood in
t h a t bedroom. I know we t a l k e d about it. I know

I've -- I -- I spoke j u s t r e c e n t l y about no
blood, no blood splatter. There's no evidence at
all that anyone was stabbed or had t h e i r throat
slit in t h a t bedroom on October 31, 2005, or any
other time. The State's theory doesn't make
sense. And Brendan's statements a r e j u s t simply
not consistent.
At this time I ' m going to pass on to
Attorney Edelstein. Thank you.

ATTORNEY EDELSTEIN: Your Honor, members
of the jury, Counsel. Ladies and gentlemen, on
behalf of defense team and Brendan Dassey, I want

to thank you for your service in this case thus
far. But it's a long way from over.

We've heard a lot of testimony, and a
l o t of exhibits have been received as evidence.
My colleague just went over with you some of the

things about the State's case that should result
in a finding of not guilty. So much of the
inconsistencies, so much of what the S t a t e has
adopted as their theory, t h a t they j u s t g o t done
a r g u i n g to you w i t h i n the l a s t couple of hours,
is absolutely unsupported by the evidence.
When we look at this case, when you l o o k
at this case, guided by the evidence and the
rules of law that the Judge gave you, ask
yourself a t some point, since, obviously, it's a
huge issue, is his statement reliable? Is it
believable? Well, things are believable when you
can demonstrate that it's accurate.
Now, were there some things that he said
that turned out to be accurate? Of course. But
107
t h e State has told you before and insists that
this is only because someone there would know. A

participant. But that's not necessarily true.
These instructions tell you about a reasonable

hypothesis, and I'm going to revisit t h a t here i n
a little b i t .
Since, I guess, I'm among the
technically challenged here in the group, and you
guys have been l o o k i n g at pictures all week, if
it's something critically sent -- important, I
guess I'll resort to the ELMO. We do have some
s l i d e s we w a n t you to look at.
But let's begin with Brendan. That's
where I get to use this. Brendan's 16. At the

time, he was in t h e t e n t h grade. He has some
special education classes. He l i k e s video games.
How many times -- and t h i n k about it, even on
that 3/1 statement -- how many times did the
police tell him, Brendan, s t a r t over again.
Start over again. What did you do? I got home,

g o t o f f t h e bus, played video games.
What else do we know about Brendan? We

have school records. We know from t h e school
records that he consistently does not look adults
in t h e eyes. It would be very easy -- And these
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instructions allow you to use your common sense
and you should use your common sense. Anybody
that's ever been around kids, and they're feeling
bad, and if they did something, they kind of hang
their head, they don't want to look at you. And
it would be awful easy f o r t h e Government to g e t
up here and say, a l l you have to do is look at
that. All you have to do is l o o k at him. And
he's covered with guilt. But he's not.
Brendan is expressionless. And, for the
record, and for t h e b e n e f i t of you members of t h e
jury, Exhibit 224. This is from his school.

Brendan is expressionless. No facial expression.
Seemingly blank stare, possibly indicating
daydreaming.
This isn't something new. This isn't

something that r e s u l t s because, as the State
wants you to believe beyond a reasonable d o u b t ,
and that's the standard, beyond, that somehow
he's acting funny because of t h e way he comes
across in that video. That he's acting guilty.
They want you to surmise things. This isn't
about surmising. It's not about guessing. It's
about them meeting their obligation under the law
to prove each element beyond a reasonable doubt.
109
What else did we learn from the school?
On Exhibit 220, this was completed September of
2005. It describes various tests that were given
to Brendan.
Recalling sentences as a subtest.
Age-equivalent, five years and eight months.
Formulating sentences; nine years, n i n e
months.
Number repetition. Mr. Fallon, during
the cross-examination of Brendan, talked to him
about how well he d i d in math. Number repetition
forward; age-equivalent, five years, three
months. Backwards; six years, three months. His

percentile ranks are so low that it's sad.
Now, that is n o t to say that because he
may be a pathetic character, and I don't hesitate
to s a y that because nobody can choose their
family, you can't choose your parents, you can't
choose your uncles, and you can't choose your
cousins, and that's sad enough, that's not to say
that that negates the horrendous a n d h o r r i f i c
tragedy that befell the Halbach family. But that

is not the issue. The issue is, have they proven
each element of every count they have accused him
of? That's where you f o l k s come in.
110
We know from the school records that
there are specific learning disabilities. Speech
or language impairment. Now, why is a l l this
important? We'll get t o Dr. Gordon here i n a
minute. B u t why is this important about who
we're d e a l i n g w i t h here? Who everybody here i s
dealing with. Ultimately, you folks.
These o f f i c e r s , when the case began --

Now, I'm n o t going to s i t here and s a y , w e l l ,
they're bad guys. No, they're not bad guys. But
I will s i t here and say they did a bad job. Ask

yourselves, when you look at this, if they did a
bad job, and there's n o t t h e degree of
reliability in t h e statement that you believe is
required u n d e r t h e law, then you're g o i n g to
disregard it. When you disregard it, you've got
a table full of physical items, they're surely
not g o i n g to prove anything beyond a reasonable
doubt.
What did the o f f i c e r s do? You remember

Detective O'Neill from Marinette. And I remember
him because, I'm not t r y i n g to p i c k on him, but
we saw a lot of witnesses, and he had the b i g g e s t

t h i n g Ranging out of h i s pocket that I've ever
seen. H e r s t h e f i r s t one talked w i t h h i m f o r
111
over an hour.
How did this begin? Remember, he said,
I had m i n i m a l i n f o r m a t i o n . Now, I bring t h i s up
because -- because, as we have suggested and
believe to be the case, the police and the
prosecution are, to use the phrase of t h e
prosecution e a r l i e r i n t h i s case, "cherry
picking." W e like t h i s part of his statement,
but we're not sure a b o u t that, so we're just
going to stay away from i t . We l i k e this p a r t of
h i s statement. But t h e y were c h e r r y p i c k i n g .

When t h e y t e s t i f i e d , f o r example, t h e y
didn't -- e v e n OINeill -- And h e had no reason
n o t to give it up, but he claimed he had minimal
information, which really wasn't true. He knew
t h e Rav 4 had been found. H e knew Brendan, uh,
was t o be interviewed. He was in contact with
Skorlinski, from D C I , who was in c o n t a c t w i t h
Fassbender, from D C I , who w a s literally a t t h e
command p o s t at the Avery property. But even he,
when asked, well, did you get argumentative with
him? No, it w a s j u s t k i n d of a give and take.
In his own r e p o r t , he u s e d the w o r d " c o n f r o n t e d " .

Now, I expect at some point you're going
t o hear an argument -- because t h e State gets
112
another opportunity to talk to you and we
don't -- but you're going to hear an argument
about, well, this is just good, proper technique.
And that might be true if you're dealing with
someone of average, normal, typical intelligence,
demeanor and memory. But neither OfNeill, the
first one, or Fassbender or Wiegert, the two lead
investigators, really knew much, if anything,

about this young man before they talked to him.
I t h i n k Wiegert admitted t h a t . He
didn't check the school. He didn't know anything
about him. But this is not the t y p i c a l young
man. He might have been on this earth for 16
years at the time, but he didn't act like it and
he didn't think like it.
And isn't it incumbent upon the
Government, when t h e y bring these type of
allegations, to be able to satisfy you beyond a
reasonable doubt that the evidence that they're
asking you to r e l i e upon is, in fact, credible
and believable and not tainted because of things
that may have been said or done.
I a s k e d a l l these officers about

promises. A n d you folks, you had an opportunity
to see the tape, you had an opportunity to listen
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to it. You've heard portions of it twice. Okay?
These are but excerpts. Excerpts from that.
Excuse me, if I might, but before --
before we even g e t to that 3/1 interview, keep in
mind that on two separate occasions on the 27th

Brendan was talked to. What did Wiegert say when
asked in response to when Brendan Dassey became a
suspect? He didn't become a suspect until
March 1. You folks can see what's up on the
screen. It's a rights waiver. It's the Miran&
warning. And didn't Wiegert say there's a big
d i f f e r e n c e between interviews and interrogations?
We don't read rights to people we're just
interviewing, trying to get information. He's
just a witness. He's just a witness.
But on the 27th, when they go down to
Two Rivers, lo and behold, Brendan, we're going
to read you your rights and you're g o i n g to sign
this waiver. Why is that? Was he telling you
everything there was to tell? It's a l l these
little things that accumulate, that build back
some of those b r i c k s of the wall of innocence
that surrounds him, which is that presumption of

innocence that all of you swore that -- on your
oaths, that you would abide by unless and until
114
the State d i s m a n t l e d i t by proof beyond a
reasonable doubt.
Again, one little i t e m , i n and of
itself, not a big deal, but it's a n accumulation
of things, and you have t o carefully scrutinize
e v e r y t h i n g t h e y bring you before you can decide
if they've reached their b u r d e n . And if they

have not, you must acquit.
But here t h e y are on t h e 2 7 t h . They

t a l k to h i m in Two Rivers. They have h i m s i g n
that.
Mark, can you switch that back?
We t a l k e d earlier, and there was
testimony on cross-examination particularly
about, well, what did you s a y to him? And this
ties in, folks, with what Dr. Gordon had t o s a y .
And you're e n t i t l e d to use your own common sense.
Would someone -- And this is a question you're
going to a s k yourselves. Would someone admit to
something, especially a terrible crime, if it

wasn't so? Well, would any one of u s ? Maybe
not. But, here, we're not t a l k i n g about u s ,
we're t a l k i n g about Brendan.
Now, he i s n o t ready f o r t h e
institution, b u t h e ' s n o t going t o go work at
115
NASA either. And he might be l u c k y to even work
down at the l o c a l machine shop. We know f r o m t h e
academic t e s t i n g , w e know from the t e s t i n g from
Dr. Gordon, he is at t h e lowest of the low
average and then b o r d e r l i n e range of intelligence
and functioning.
B u t what do t h e police do? Go back to
o u r little slide show. There's promises, there's
p r a i s e , there's n e g a t i v e feedback, lies, and
suggestions. Now, t h e y l i k e to give it other

terms. It sounds, I guess, a little softer. In
fact, that's how t h e y t a l k about the soft room.
I asked Wiegert, do you think you're a
little smarter, maybe a little more sophisticated
than Brendan? A t first, he r e a l l y d i d n ' t even
want t o answer that, and then he f i n a l l y s a i d ,
well, I should hope so. Well, I should hope so,
too.
You have an u n e q u a l -- an unequal
balance between the interrogators and Brendan.
What a r e s o m e of the things that are said? We're
in your corner. We're on your s i d e . Okay. You
d o n ' t have t o worry about things. We'll stand
behind you. You're the good guy here. This i s
critical. T h e s e type of statements. Look at the
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last one. If I don't believe in you, I can't go
t o bat for you.
Anybody that's ever had a child has used
somewhat of t h a t same t e c h n i q u e . I ' m not g o i n g
to take you to t h e party. I ' m n o t going t o t a k e
you to, uh, McDonald's to play in the b a l l s . I'm

n o t g o i n g t o take you t o go get i c e cream unless
you -- you're honest about what happened. In
other words, t e l l m e w h a t I want to hear and then
you get what you want.
The honest person's the one that's going
to get a better deal. Yet, when I asked him, d i d
you promise h i m a n y t h i n g ? No, I wouldn't do
that. A better deal? It's not y o u r fault. If
someone is repeatedly drilled that just tell it
to us, it's okay, it's not your f a u l t , nothing's
really going to happen to you, don't you t h i n k
they might be a little bit more easily persuaded
to adopt w h a t t h e y are s u g g e s t i n g that t h e y
adopt? And t h a t occurs repeatedly.

We're going to help you t h r o u g h t h i s ,
all r i g h t ? H e even goes so far as to go over
there, patting h i m on his knee. A t one p o i n t ,
I ' m s u r e you f o l k s remember, d u r i n g the course of
that video, Detective Wiegert's over t h e r e , he's
117
sitting on the -- the couch in the soft room,
here, draw this picture f o r me.
Says -- he t e l l s you. And, a g a i n , n o t a
b i g deal, in and of itself, but i t q s an
accumulation. Why is it t h e y don't want to tell

you everything? J u s t give it up. I t f s not
that -- that important. B u t p a r t of it is
because they take the position, we're right,
nobody else's opinion matters, and you have to
accept what we say hook, line and s i n k e r . We're
the professionals. We know better than you.
Well, it's a good thing that n o t everybody on a
jury is a police o f f i c e r , because t h e defendant
would never have a f a i r f i g h t i n g chance.
What about praise? Okay, Brendan,
you're doing a good job. When they h e a r what
t h e y want, t h e y p r a i s e h i m .
It's like patting the puppy and -- on

t h e head and giving h i m a treat when trying to
g e t h i m paper t r a i n e d and you g e t them outside
and you g o . You're doing a good job.
You're doing the right thing. Don't l e t
us down. I t h i n k you're doing a real good job up
to this p o i n t . That makes s e n s e . Now we can
believe you.
Keep in mind, and I t h i n k that's coming
up here in a little b i t , how many times he was
told, we don't believe you, give us the truth, be
honest with us. I think I asked Wiegert, well,

how many times did you say that? And he didn't
know. I wouldnrt expect h i m to. I wouldn't

e x p e c t him to sit there and count, in the course
of a lengthy, three-hour interrogation, the
number of times he or his partner suggested to

Brendan, come on, be honest. Quit lying to us.
I wouldn't expect that. But it happened a lot.
And it's consistent w i t h this technique.
And it wasn't so much at that point that
they're interested in getting the truth so much
as they want some information. Now, they took
that information and ran w i t h it and made it
match as best they could. But, still, they

insist only a person who participated as p a r t y to
the crime would know these things. And that,
f o l k s , is n o t true.
Your cooperation and help with us is
going to work in your favor. Now I can start

believing you. Here's some of t h e negative ones.
You're making this hard on us and yourself.
Don't start lying now. Be honest. You're just
119
hurting yourself. Oops, I'm sorry, I went a
l i t t l e fast. You're just hurting yourself if you
lie now. These are j u s t a f e w -- a f e w of the

things that were said t o h i m i n these type of
techniques.
What a r e some of the lies? They said
they didn't lie to him. They called it
"deceptive practices". It's going to be a lot
easier on you down t h e road i f t h i s goes t o t r i a l

and stuff like that. Why not tell somebody that?
It's absolutely u n t r u e . But i f they admit t o
things, and you don't v e r i f y t h a t w h a t t h e y say
is c o r r e c t , how is it easier on h i m ? You're
p u t t i n g him in a box. They c o n v i n c e t h i s boy, i t
doesn't really matter, just tell us, we're your
friends.
A t one p o i n t , I think Wiegert -- I think
it's i n our p r e s e n t a t i o n -- t a l k s about, I j u s t
want t o g i v e you a hug. No police officer, who's
i n v e s t i g a t i n g this type of an offense, vicious
and cruel as it was, c a n honestly s i t there w i t h
a straight face and t e l l you folks, I j u s t want
to give t h i s young man a hug when I think he had
something to do w i t h this.
I'm your friend. Where w a s she? Come
120
on, w e know this already. We know you were back
there. A n d he's t a l k i n g about the bedroom. We
know you were back there. Where's the physical
evidence to s u p p o r t that? He wasn't confronted
one time.
You've all seen this on TV. They're
talking to somebody, oh, come on, we know you d i d
it. Somebody says, I didn't. They throw
something i n f r o n t of him and say, well, there's
some pictures, here's some prints, here's this,
here's that.
They had -- they didn't know it -- this.
They kept accusing h i m of it without one piece of
evidence to back it up. And, eventually, he

adopts some of it. Of course they're g o i n g to
tell you, well, that's because he finally broke
down and t o l d the t r u t h . However, when t h e y make
that statement, I challenge you folks to discern
for yourselves how much of what he said is t r u e
and try to answer that q u e s t i o n by what t h e y
brought you. B y what they b r o u g h t you.
Even his own c o u s i n , who t h e y b r o u g h t up

on the stand, it doesn't match. She's pinned up
in a chair. That's ridiculous. They never even
followed up on that.
How i s this for a lie? Truthfully, I
don't think Steven intended to k i l l h e r . Awe,
Brendan, j u s t tell us, because it was probably an
accident. We don't even t h i n k S t e v e n i n t e n d e d to
do it.
What happened to Teresa was horrendous.
Steven Avery preyed upon that girl when he called
and said, send me the same girl. We know what
dates she'd been there before. She'd been there.
Now, that man -- young man, he's n o t
dead, and he hasn't been t h r o u g h a fire p i t , b u t
if you do what the S t a t e asks, he m i g h t as well

be.
There's t h e hug. How about suggestions?
This is where they get to t h e p a r t of saying,

well, now, you know, in order for us to believe
you, a l l you have to do is say you d i d some
t h i n g s , because then w e ' d probably believe you.
It's not your fault. He makes you do it. It's
okay. He was telling you to do it. What does
Steven make you do? You went back into that
room.
Some of these are doubles. We'd be here
a l l day if w e listed every single one and every
s i n g l e category of lies, suggestions, promises.
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The point simply is, t h i s went on over and over
and over again. Was his will overcome? D i d he
say these things because he'd had enough? We
know he's highly suggestible. You were there
when she died. You helped tie her up, though,
didn't you? What he made you do. We know he
made you do something else. I think he probably
told you.
You went over to his house. When t h e
times didn't match, but they wanted it to match,
their theory, they continually, repeatedly told
him t h a t his times were wrong. Yet, there's
nothing, whatsoever, to suggest that the Kornely

information is wrong.
They're saying that he went over t h e r e
twice. Now, ask yourselves this, folks, would
this young man, even Brendan Dassey with the
limitations he has -- And like I said, he's not

ready f o r t h e institution. B u t would this young
man walk in, who's been described, n o t o n l y by
t h e school personnel, as quiet, reserved,
respectful, tested out that way with the
counselors, the teachers, the other professionals
who examined him, is he just going to walk away
from that trailer l i k e they want you to believe?
123
What was his brother's testimony? I got
o f f the bus. I saw Steve A v e r y w a l k i n g over t o
t h a t burn barrel. The same burn barrel where
Teresa's property was found. What time was that?

That was when they were w a l k i n g h o m e . His own
brother said that. Their witness.

How many times did you s h o o t her?
Now, M r . F a l l o n stood h e r e a n d told you,

n o t l e s s t h a n twice, t h a t Brendan Dassey never
pulled the trigger. He t o l d you that. That's
their t h e o r y . They believe that.
However, examine the statement. When
Wiegert and Fassbender w e r e a s k i n g h i m questions,
a g a i n , w i t h o u t r e a l l y h a v i n g much c o n t a c t w i t h
h i m , w i t h o u t knowing h i s cognitive l i m i t a t i o n s ,
w i t h o u t knowing how his ability t o receive and
p r o c e s s i n f o r m a t i o n and language, w h e t h e r i t w a s
a good t a l e n t that he had, a poor skill, they
asked him things l i k e , how many times did you
shoot her? They don't even s a y who t h e y ' r e
t a l k i n g about. And i t ' s i n there. If i t would
say, how many times d i d Steve do it? How many
times did you do it? And t h e y ' r e g o i n g t o talk
about r e s i s t a n c e . How h e resisted that.
B u t t h e t r u t h of t h e matter is, a couple
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of times, when they weren't specific about who
they're even talking a b o u t , he g i v e s an answer,
such as a number. And it changes. It bounces
back and forth. He was confused. He was scared.

And let's j u s t b r i e f l y touch upon that.
Ask yourselves, how probing were they when he
told them, I seen it. And he said, he told, he
s e e n me see it, so he told me not to say
something or else it will -- he threatened me a

little bit. He made it clear to them early on.
And t h e y had no reason to d o u b t it. They just
didn't like the answers. They didn't l i k e what
he said. B u t they never explored the potential
truth a n d alternative that this young man walked
over t h e r e and d i d see something in a f i r e , and
t h a t something was Teresa Halbach.
They go t h r o u g h this s c e n a r i o , a n d they
start -- once he tells them, I seen it, a n d Steve

knew it, and he said, don't say anything, that's
when it becomes, you saw this, you saw that.
They admitted, and Wiegert t e s t i f i e d to
it, you saw it on the video, they brought up
s p e c i f i c f a c t s , a g a i n , that they c l a i m only
somebody involved would know, which at some point
he adopted. But his adoption doesn't make it
125
true.
You a l l heard the phrase "you can't

believe everything you read in the newspaper."
Well, you can't, necessarily, believe everything
Brendan Dassey says on a video, because there's

no independent verification from a source -- from
a n y source.
We know you shot h e r , too. Now, how
dare the State of Wisconsin come into the
courtroom in this state, that statement having
been given to a cognitively limited young man,
flat out accusing him of picking up that gun and
shooting this poor girl. And they didn't do it
just once. We know you s h o t her, too. Where?
Where is the evidence to support that?
He1s making it up on the f l y . Sounds
good to us. Let's see if he accepts i t o r
rejects it. Why would you even do it when you
combine that with t h e types of promises, offers
of leniency, telling him it's okay, he didn't do
anything wrong, somebody else made him do it,
especially when you're dealing with someone like
Brendan Dassey. Why?
And, y e t , have the audacity t o come i n
here today and say, we know he didn't do i t .
126
Steve Avery s h o t her. B u t he helped. He was
there. This isn't guilt by association. This
isn't guilt by what family you belong to. It's
guilt by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And if
they don't climb that ladder, you don't give it
to them.
What d i d he do u n d e r the hood? They're
the first ones that brought this up. You saw t h e
hands and the forehead. Now, I can s i t up here
a l l day long and talk about these techniques,
these statements, whether it's believable or not.
Obviously, we believe it is n o t . It is n o t
reliable, because it is n o t true that only a
person who participated would know these things.
H o w many times d u r i n g the course of that
discussion on the 1st did they say, come on,
Brendan, we know you and Steven talked about it.
Mr. Fallon just got up here and told you. And

then they went from that bedroom into that front
room and had a little chat. That's how he
characterized it. A little chat about what
they're going to do. How t h e y ' re going to g e t
r i d of Teresa.
It's more likely that little chat
happened when he walked over there expecting a
127
Halloween bonfire, and went around with t h e
little cast, and picked up all the stuff, and
eventually they start throwing stuff in there,
and he probably d i d see something. Pretty
traumatic. Is that reason enough f o r a young man
to be despondent? To be sad? Is that a
reasonable hypothesis?
This is straight from the instruction.
If you can reconcile the evidence upon any
reasonable hypothesis consistent with the
defendant's innocence, you should do so a n d
return a verdict of n o t g u i l t y .
That's a very reasonable hypothesis.
When he went over there, and I'm sure every one
of you is sitting here right now a n d s a y i n g ,
where's this lawyer coming up with this? Brendan
was up on the stand. And he says he g o t it from
a book, and he said, "I don't know" countless
times. But he did tell the police. He did tell
the police he saw things. Steve threatened him.

Be told him to keep h i s mouth shut.
Is this a young man whose memory
skills -- And this isn't just based upon what
people like to characterize as the " h i r e d gun".
It's not just based on Dr. Gordon. The school
128
h a s no reason to t e l l you anything that's not so.
We know he has these difficulties. It's easy f o r
the S t a t e to say, well, the school said he's n o t

suggestible. The school never tested him for
that. They didn't test him. They had no reason
to t e s t h i m .
Let's look at Dr. Gordon. You remember
him. And he's the gentleman going down to St.

L o u i s University. H e ' s been in practice for
quite some time. In fact, we had quite the array
of specialists and experts in this trial. But

that, in and of itself, no matter how much, the
instructions tell you it doesn't matter how many
witnesses. It's not a balance like that. They
had more s o they win. That's n o t how it works.
It's not a q u e s t i o n of qualifications. Well,
they had a l o t more e x p e r t s .
B u t here's Dr. Gordon. He administered

these tests. He's shy. Socially avoidant. And
he bas cognitive limitations. Borderline to low
average intelligence. In fact, he came in and

s a i d t h e t w o d i f f e r e n t IQ t e s t s that he provided,
w h i c h a r e done as a check a g a i n s t one an -- one
another, were actually a little bit higher than
what the school had. His bottom line conclusion?
129
Very vulnerable to suggestion.
You recall when Dr. Gordon was
testifying, he gave you t h i s information about
some of these t e s t s -- various tests that he
administered. I don't think there's much dispute

about the IQ. That's fairly obvious, even i n t h e
video. And if it wasn't obvious in there, folks,
if you believe that t h a t poor boy w a s acting up

there, then we should a l l chip in and buy him
Academy Award. He does haven't t h a t kind of

skill. You saw him.
But look where he falls on the 16-PF.

On t h e lowest e n d . Well below average. He's n o t
independent. He's not socially bold. He's not
dominant. So when Mr. F a l l o n suggests he had all
these choices, did he really? When he walked
over there and saw what he saw, what choice d i d
he have? What choice did he have?
Don't hold it a g a i n s t h i m because he
s a i d t h i n g s l i k e , well, I don't l i k e t h e police
l i k e t h e r e s t of my family. He can't p i c k h i s
parents. He can't pick his uncle. B u t look at
t h e r e s u l t s on that. That's not someone who's in
a position to turn a r o u n d a n d either walk away --

he probably had no clue what to do. None.
130
A s k yourself, on this Gudjonsson
S c a l e -- Now, they brought Dr. Armentrout in who
s a i d , I've been around forever, I know what I'm
doing, and I've never heard of this thing other
than what I've looked up on the internet, and I
know the guy's from Iceland, now he's in England.

And I really think it's stupid when you ask
somebody, urn, about being on holiday. Maybe so.
But that's only one question. There wasn't
anything e l s e h e talked about. But Gordon
administered t h e test. It's a recognized,

acceptable t e s t .
So many y e a r s ago, when the prosecution
came in and said t o judge after judge after
judge, we want to use this scientific evidence
called DNA, it met with a l o t of skepticism, b u t
has become accepted and reliable. This is no
d i f f e r e n t than a n y other measurement t o o l . He
was qualified to give it, and those a r e Brendan's
results.
You heard the testimony about t h e shift
a n d the y i e l d . And it wasn't j u s t from Gordon.
And what does that really mean? Basically, you
give somebody a l o t of feedback that's n e g a t i v e .
H e d i d n ' t like your answer. Are they going to
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change it? Yes. And this is a one on one. This
is not some kind of group dynamic test. This is
one on one. He's faced t w o on one with very
skilled, experienced o f f i c e r s , who, between the
two of them, have g o t probably about three times
as much experience just in their law enforcement
career as many years as that boy's been alive.
And when asked, did Wiegert say, in
response to the question, well, isn't it true
that when you gave him negative feedback, that he
changed his answer for you? Yes. Isn't it true
that when you provided or suggested an answer to
him, he changed his answer? Yes, that's true.
Like I s a i d before, folks, I'm n o t here

sitting here telling you that they're bad guys.
They're not bad guys. But this is how they're
trained to do this. But you don't apply the same
techniques on every single person. This is n o t

cookie c u t t e r j u s t i c e . O n e size does not fit
all. And it is incumbent upon them, when t h e y
bring you what they characterize as a
"confession", to convince you that it is reliable
enough that you can hang your h a t on it. And in
this case, you simply can't.

Was it an error? C e r t a i n l y , it could
132
have been done better. I think they would even
acknowledge that. But that's what we have. And
that's what we have to deal w i t h .
They m i g h t get up and argue, w e l l , gee,
you heard this testimony about his ability to
resist things, which is not very strong, but he
resisted the shooting.
What about t h e phone call to his mom?
You guys heard that. Who does all the talking?
Barb does all t h e talking. You c o u l d have been
the hero. Yeah. That's kind -- That's more of a
response. It's not an affirmation in that phone
call.
And, again, trust your collective
memory, f o l k s , if it's been different than mine.
I know you guys have your little pads the Court
gave you with a l l those notes of the testimony.
That's mine. I'm n o t going to sit here and go
through it. Not right now. But I've looked at
it every day during the course of this. But if
you remember it different, t r u s t your memory.
D i d he ever say -- Did his mom ever say,
did you kill that girl? D i d Brendan ever say,
oh, you b e t . No. That's n o t what happened. It
was something l i k e , did you do t h o s e things? And
133
what was his answer? Some of it. Some of what?
Some of standing around the f i r e ? Some of
p i c k i n g things up with the g o l f cart? What does
that mean to Rim? It's n o t that clear. It's n o t
clear beyond a reasonable d o u b t . Never, ever

take anything out of context. You have to look
at everything.
If a l l it was was a matter of simply
saying, y e s or no, we * d have left here days ago.
In fact, I made a point of demonstrating with
Detective Wiegert j u s t how easily Brendan would
go along. H o w many times did Wiegert say things
l i k e , Brendan, s a y yes or no. And Brendan would
go, yes. I remember one o t h e r time, same
interview, Brendan, say yes or no. No. He's

doing what he's told.
His limitations a r e such that he can't
go from the question up at t h e t o p of t h e page,
halfway down when they're coming back to it, when
they have interposed in between there promises,
assurances, lies. And then they come b a c k and

say, aren't we right? He might s a y , yeah.
Tattoo's a perfect example of that.
They claimed, and they presented to you, that
they brought that up as an example of how he
134
could resist suggestion. Wrong. T h e y ' r e just
wrong. All he did was s a y , i n response t o
Wiegert, when Wiegert i n s i s t e d t h a t Teresa had a
t a t t o o , w a s when -- because I t h i n k the q u e s t i o n
w a s , do you d i s a g r e e w i t h t h a t , and he s a i d , no,
b u t I don't know where it is. That makes no
sense. They want you to believe that the
response means one thing when, in f a c t , it means
something totally d i f f e r e n t .
The reliability of that video, of that
statement, is such, combined w i t h the expert
testimony that's been presented in this case,
w h i c h h a s n o t been r e f u t e d , Armentrout has never
even heard of this, and the only t h i n g he c o u l d
do is say, well, I don't see any notes on the
score sheet here, so I don't have a l o t of f a i t h
in this.
These a r e some things we already t a l k e d

about. Gordon's assessment's consistent w i t h t h e
school. Re has memory deficits. And Armentrout
doesn't know much about this test.
M r . A r m e n t r o u t went s o f a r as t o say, I saw the
word "suggestible" one time when 3 was checking

the i n t e r n e t . And, again, he o f f e r s his o p i n i o n
about why Gordon shouldn't be believed. But
135
there's no basis for that.
Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of
Brendan Dassey, M r . Fremgen, myself, I want t o
thank you f o r your service in this case. It's
been a long period of time. B u t this is so
important that you abide by your oaths that you
took when we first met you, when this case f i r s t
began, and to deliver a true verdict based only
on the law and o n l y on t h i s evidence.
And when you review it all, and you
listen to one another, and you take the time
necessary to c o n s i d e r it, a n d use your common
s e n s e , and d o n ' t just r u b b e r stamp the version
they provide you, k e e p i n g i n m i n d i t i s their
b u r d e n , and i t ' s a n awesome b u r d e n , t h a t they
have n o t -- they have not removed those bricks of
p r o t e c t i o n , that p r e s u m p t i o n of innocence t h a t
surrounds him.
D o n ' t convict him because this was a
horrible thing. Don't convict him b e c a u s e he
c o u l d n ' t pick h i s p a r e n t s . D o n ' t convict h i m
because he simply doesn't know and he's honest
a b o u t it. If he doesn't know, and you believe

him, and you judge h i m l i k e you would anyone else
under the instruction on credibility, you should,
136
b
and we hope that you will, return verdicts of n o t

guilty on all c o u n t s . Thank you, very much.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Would you l i k e me to
go or do you want to t a k e a break?
THE COURT: Uh, let's take 15 minutes,

ATTORNEY FALLON: All right.
THE COURT: All right. We'll be back
at, uh, t e n of the hour.
(Recess had at 3:33 p.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. Fallon.
ATTORNEY FALLON: Thank you. L e t me
b e g i n by making two p o i n t s c r y s t a l c l e a r . We are
here and we're here f o r one reason; there's no
issue, there's no d o u b t , we're here because the
d e f e n d a n t has a constitutional right to have us
prove him guilty. That's why we're here. That's
what we've done. There's no mystery here.
There's no issue here.
P o i n t number t w o , f o r a l l that stuff
that Counsel showed you on the screen, and for
all this testimony, I t h i n k there's one thing
that's inescapably c l e a r about t h e defendant,
while n o t the sharpest k n i f e i n t h e drawer, he's
c l e a r l y low average intelligence, he's a
137
mainstream student, h e ' s g o t two special classes.
All r i g h t . And I t h i n k C o u n s e l probably
misspoke, but l e t me c l a r i f y s o m e t h i n g . He
wasn't r e a d i n g a s a five-year-old, he was reading
a s a f i f t h grader. L e t ' s just k e e p t h a t clear.
Because he had some d i f f i c u l t i e s i n reading,
which certainly makes one wonder as to what books
he was r e a d i n g by t h e way. But we'll get t o
that.
F i r s t p o i n t , and I want t o make t h i s
p o i n t because I t h i n k it's significant a n d it
feeds into the whole question of suggestibility,
or I -- should I say, the absence t h e r e o f . And
those a r e the statements to Kayla Avery.
Now, l e t ' s t h i n k about t h a t . She's
telling us in a statement, i n which she denied on
t h e stand, b u t s h e had a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h the
defendant i n December about body parts and people
b e i n g p i n n e d up. And w h i l e s h e t h o u g h t h e s a i d
"chair", w e got p i n n e d up, and w e got body p a r t s
i n a f i r e , we got blood coming out of c o n c r e t e
floors; r i g h t ?
Now, t h i n k about that. She was so

upset, s o moved by t h a t revelation t h a t s h e went
to h e r counselor in early January. Now, if you
138
were 16 years o l d , if w e were in a situation like
this, what would be the most disturbing images
f o r the experience if you really had experienced
it? It would be t h o s e images of a woman pinned

up. Of body parts in a fire. Of blood coming
out of a concrete f l o o r .
Those are the things t h a t would s t i c k
with you in your memory. A n d I tell you t h a t
because you know what? That's w h y he confessed.
Because he couldn't live with it. And it started
to eek out in his discussion little by little.
Peeling the onion, little by little, to his
cousin first. His peer. Followed by all that
trauma that winter. The loss of weight, The
tearful sessions. Sitting at a b i r t h d a y party
a n d h e ' s in t e a r s because he's by himself. Why?
It's n o t because he lost a girlfriend, it's
because he couldn't live with it.
And when we get to the discussion of the
interrogation, that's the angle t h e officers
took. That's why he confessed.
All r i g h t . Theme t w o , t h e absence of
DNA or the absence of evidence. Well, it's been

a while s i n c e I had my human anatomy class, b u t
t h e r e was certainly a question a b o u t why there
139
I
isn't just oodles of blood a l l over that room if
t h e r e was someone's t h r o a t c u t . But t h i n k , now.
T h i n k about that description the defendant gave
you on t h e videotape. As I s a i d , across the

front of the throat. And I believe -- my
recollection is i t was above t h e Adam's apple.
Now, t h e last time I looked, t h e c a r o t i d
artery, or t h e jugular vein, which it seems to be
in common parlance, are on the sides of the neck.

You're n o t going to have a whole lot of blood
splurting (phonetic) around with a c u t across
here. Which, by the way, is the correct
testimony of Mr. S t a h l k e from the crime lab. The
blood spatter expert.
Sure, if you cut somebody on t h e i r
carotid artery, you're going to have blood
spurting. If you cut them across here, there

isn't going to be a l o t of blood. And that's
also consistent w i t h , and also makes the
defendant's version credible because he wasn't
entirely sure that he wanted to cut all the way
through. As he said, he p u t his f i n g e r s up l i k e
that and showed you a small cut. Not a
laceration. Not a severed artery or vein.
There's not more evidence in that room
140
because the bedding is b u r n e d . He tells us that.
The defendant is cleaning up. W h a t f s he going to
do? Not p u t bedding back on a bed? He's g o t to
sleep. He doesn't know when and if t h e police

are ever going to come. He's c l e a n i n g the room.
He's g o i n g to p u t f r e s h bedding on there.

And, remember, he's got four days to
clean up. Tuesday, Wednesday, T h u r s d a y , F r i d a y .
That's four days. The police show up on
Saturday. Four days to clean that house. Four
days to clean.
He already knows about bleach. We got
bleach all over the garage. You t h i n k it t a k e s
t w o seconds to wipe down some handcuffs?
Absolutely n o t . Counsel was s a y i n g , well, why

didn't they w a s h the handcuffs? Well, there's a
difference between handcuffs sitting around for
four days in the exclusive possession of Steven
Avery and a bullet that neither one of these guys
knew existed being found four months l a t e r in t h e
garage that s h e was able to o b t a i n a profile
from.
And probably most importantly, and let's
talk a b o u t this, j u s t because t h e r e is no DNA
p r o f i l e , j u s t because t h e r e were no f i n g e r p r i n t s
141
-
of the defendant present doesn't mean he wasn't
there, doesn't mean he didn't do it. As Ms.

Culhane t o l d you, v e r y easy, it's still fragile.
DNA degrades. DNA gets cleaned up.

Mr. Riddle told you fingerprints
entirely dependent upon the nature of the
substance and to atmospheric conditions, weather
conditions. After a l l , what did he tell you?
They're 98 percent water. That's why there's no
prints.
On a car hood sitting outside for four
days, which, by the way, last time I looked that
c a r hood isn't exactly l i k e your brand new car
off t h e showroom such that it's going to h o l d a

print. I'm surprised the defense didn't try to
sell you a b i l l of goods and say, jeez, why
didn't they test the car seat f o r prints?
I'm not going to even address the hairs

in the vacuum cleaner. That -- that's
ridiculous.
The best example f o r the absence of
evidence, even though we know someone was there,
is Steven Avery. He's d r i v i n g t h e vehicle. He

drives it down there; right? He's opening the
doors. He's driving t h e vehicle down there. His
142
prints aren't on t h e r e e i t h e r , are they? They're
not. We know he's there because his blood was
t h e r e , because he left his blood there.
Counsel will say, well, why didn't he
c l e a n that up? Because he didn't t h i n k he had
to. Because he was going to crush that car.
That's what he was going to do w i t h that car.

I
Don't have to worry about c l e a n i n g up the car.
Another day or two, t h a t car would have been
gone.
And, finally, why is there no defendant
DNA there? Well, the last time I looked, I don't
think anyone said Brendan Dassey was actively

bleeding. There's no cut on him such that his
blood would be found anywhere.
All right. Let's talk about
interrogation. First of all, let's keep in mind
this is a gruesome rape/murder. This isn't your

average retail theft, your average burglary, your
average anything. The interrogation conducted by
these officers is nothing short of exemplary,
skilled, talented, pointed and d i r e c t e d , as I
suggested, to appeal to his sense of guilt. They
heard. They knew. They had that feeling.
As Counsel t e l l you, they've got t h r e e
143
t i m e s t h e experience that he has y e a r s on this
earth. They appeal to that sense of guilt. They

had that hunch that he wasn't g o i n g to be able to
live w i t h it, and they were right.
People who are innocent don't confess in
the detail provided to the extent this defendant
provided it. They don't do that. This isn't
your w a l k in o f f the street I -- I killed
JonBenet Ramsey. We're about as f a r away from
t h a t idea -- A n d I'm not quite s u r e where
Dr. Gordon's coming from, b u t I'm sure glad he's
going to Missouri.
People who are innocent don't confess.
The defendant confessed because he was guilty.

Because he did it. An innocent person is going
to deny the suggestion. They're not going to
admit to this. Not to the degree that the
defendant d i d . Now, let's keep one o t h e r thing
in mind. 1'11 l i s t e n to that argument, it makes
my blood boil, because those o f f i c e r s t r e a t e d t h e
defendant a h e c k of a l o t b e t t e r than he t r e a t e d
Teresa Halbach.
Now, let's clear up this corroboration
issue. The defense, in their opening comments on
argument, suggested to you that we needed to
144
corroborate everything in his statement. That's
n o t true. That's n o t the law. We need -- As
Mr. Edelstein corrected his colleague, we need
only prove beyond a reasonable doubt the elements
of those offenses; the murder, the rape, and t h e

mutilation. We don't have to corroborate. We
don't have to prove every single, s o l i t a r y thing.
We'd be here f o r the next six months.
We're required to prove to you beyond a
reasonable doubt the elements of the offense.
The facts that make him guilty. So let's look at
some, what I would c h a r a c t e r i z e as, i r r e f u t a b l e
corroboration. And it comes in f a c t s that a r e
either known only to the k i l l e r s or facts that
weren't discovered until after the d e f e n d a n t
provided them.
How about that Teresa was s h o t in the
garage? Sure, the o f f i c e r s a i d , well, who shot
her? Wiegert asked -- he g o t tired, he got
inpatient, he says, well, who shot her? He said,
he did. Who's he? Steven. Where? In t h e

garage. Where d i d that come from? With what? A
.22 caliber. More than once in the head. A n d in
t h e left side of the head.
And that the c l o t h e s were b u r n e d . That
145
was not discussed.
The o f f i c e r s had f o u n d some rivets.
That's true. And t h e y knew it had -- t h e r e was
at least one gunshot to the left side of the head
from Dr. Eisenberg's initial report. But who
else would know that? You don't know that unless
you're there. That wasn't suggested, because if

it was, you can bet Counsel would have shown that
little tape to you. Even though he doesn't want
to take anything out of context, I didn't see any
of the answers or any of the setup to any of
those questions that he flashed on the screen
so -- so i n t e r e s t i n g l y .
How about some f a c t s discovered after he

talked. That was more than one shot in t h e head.
You recall, it was later on, as Detective Wiegert
told you, that they learned that there was at
least another gunshot in the head. They didn't
know more than one on March 1.
How about the location of t h e bed?
Counsel would have you believe that because the
defendant's version of all -- of the placement of
all the furniture is somewhat different than Jodi

Stachowski's, that he shouldn't be believed.
Again, core details v e r s u s peripheral. What's
146
important. What's not. The location of the bed
is t h e critical f a c t . In other words, you can
l o o k down that hallway and see that bed, and
that's t h e point.
The other critical fact is we know,
because when the search warrant was executed t h e
bed wasn't there. The bed was underneath the gun
rack, also signifying t h a t room was cleaned and
moved in an effort to thwart t h e investigative
efforts, in a n effort to cover up this crime.
I n fact, as you heard Detective W i e g e r t
tell you, jeez, we didn't t h i n k that made any
sense. We j u s t thought that was j u s t one of
those t h i n g s we couldn't explain until they went
and they t a l k e d to Jodi S t a c h o w s k i and they said,
well, by t h e way, before you traded off to j a i l ,
where was that bed? She said, under the window,
on the wall by t h e door.

All right. And after -- after he
t a l k e d , they execute a search warrant and what
did they find? They find the bullets. Nobody
knew those bullets were there. Nobody knew for
sure until he said they were shot -- she was s h o t
in the garage. And they go back, well, let's go
look f o r bullets. And lo and behold, they find a
147
b u l l e t w i t h Teresa Halbach's DNA.
What else d i d they do? They went back
and t h e y s a i d -- Counsel will say, we'll, make a
big deal o u t a b o u t how they suggested to him that
he went under a hood. Well, let's take their

argument at face value. M y response is, so what?
They went and they swabbed the hood and, jeez,
guess what? Steven Avery's DNA is on that hood.
L e t ' s t a l k about s u c c e s s f u l resistance.
T h e r e were many examples. Think back. Many
times t h e o f f i c e r s -- well, what about those
wires hanging in the garage? D i d you guys use
those? D i d you do a n y t h i n g ? D i d you string h e r
up? Do you u s e those? Nope. Nope. H e never
bought i n t o t h a t . H e never adopted that.
H e s a i d , no, t h e r e w a s never any blood
on me from Teresa. Nope. He resisted knowing
anything a b o u t what happened t o t h e h a i r t h a t h e
c u t o f f h e r head. They tried to g e t him to say,
well, you've got it. Stevents g o t i t . Where i s
it? H e d i d n ' t know. H e d i d n ' t adopt t h a t
suggestion.
He didn't adopt t h e suggestion when t h e
o f f i c e r s pressed him, well, you were the one --

how c o u l d you see t h a t s t u f f i n t h e b u r n b a r r e l ?
148
H o w did you know that was a cell phone and all
that stuff if it's in a bag? H o w could you have
known that? You were the one who put it i n
there, weren't you? He didn't adopt that
suggestion.
And when he finally admitted to the
rape, they went back at him again and they say,
well, you saw Steven rape her, too, didn't you?
You were there when he did it; right? And he
said, no. No. He didn't adopt that.

B u t you know what the most important
suggestion resisted here? And t h a t f s the
suggestion that he shot Teresa Halbach. And you
all know why he was asked that. Because he
finally did cough up the f a c t that he held the
knife and then he cut her throat. So the next
l o g i c a l question is, well, you also shot her too;
right? And they went a t h i m several times during
that, and n o t once, once t h e " r o y a l you" and the
"individual you" were cleaned u p f o r h i m so that
he understood, he never said that he touched or
shot that gun. He resisted suggestion.
And while Counsel has him one foot away
from t h e institution, his presentation on the
witness stand is far from that. I don't know
149
a b o u t you, but h e seemed to resist my suggestions
p r e t t y well on cross-examination. At l e a s t to
t h e e x t e n t , well, you saw body parts in t h e fire;
didn't you? No, I didn't.
H e resisted several of my s u g g e s t i o n s ,
b u t most of them he just said, I don't know.
We'll come back to that in a moment.
Well, t h e d e f e n s e c a l l e d Dr. Gordon. I

don't know what more we can say about Dr. Gordon,
b u t I took a couple of things, if you want to
believe them at all. Here's a guy who's using
t h i s test which is normed, developed on
Europeans. A test he just recently g o t h i m s e l f ,
he said, a f t e r a year of trying. So i t ' s not
like h e ' s used this test a lot either.
The t e s t about Anna Thompson on holiday

in the south of Spain who loses 50 pounds of
traveler's checks. What is a k i d from Mishicot,
Wisconsin going to relate t o that? Counsel says,
well, it's only one sentence. Sure. It's o n l y

one s e n t e n c e .
Then Dr. Gordon uses t h e Wechsler
Abbreviated Scale of Intelligence. And as we
heard, t h e Wechsler Scale of Intelligence has I1
scales, b u t you can give somebody the s h o r t
150
version, the R e a d e r ' s D i g e s t version, because
it's g o t f o u r scales on t h e r e , and to give you an
idea as to how he would probably test o u t i f you
took t h e time to r u n the whole test; right?
Well, o u r esteemed Dr. Gordon only

bothered to r u n t w o scales o u t of a f o u r on the
abbreviated test. So he's abbreviating the
abbreviation. No matter. And, t h e n , he has t h e

nerve to t r y to mislead you by using the s c o r i n g
criteria for the DSM-4, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual for Mental Diseases and
Disorders, a n d apply i t to the Wechsler test,
when the Wechsler has its own scoring criteria,
a l l in an effort t o make t h e defendant t o be less

intelligent than he is.
I could go on about Dr. Gordon. B u t the
one t h i n g Dr. Armentrout said that really made
sense, t w o words; so what? A s Gordon said on
cross-examination, he's -- he's more -- he's
suggestible to telling a confession. Could be
t e l l i n g the t r u t h . Could be telling -- I can't
say. I don't know. So what?
All right. We come now to the

defendant. Counsel talked about t h e presumption
of i n n o c e n c e and the reasonable doubt. The
151
d e f e n d a n t takes the stand, says, I didn't do it.
I made it all up. Believe me.
And when I asked why -- repeatedly asked

why did you do this? Why did you do t h a t ? He
s a i d , I d o n ' t know. H e m u s t have s a i d , "I d o n ' t
know" 30 t i m e s , which, i n t e r e s t i n g l y enough, i s
about how many t i m e s t h e officers told him t o
t e l l the t r u t h d u r i n g t h a t i n t e r v i e w .
While a d e f e n d a n t is presumed i n n o c e n t ,
he is n o t presumed believable. H e is not
presumed credible. When he gets there and he
tells you, I don't know. I didn't do it. I made
it a l l up.
I want to play f o r you one brief clip,
a n d ask y o u r s e l f , do people confess to rape, t o
m u r d e r , and m u t i l a t i o n i f t h e y d i d n ' t do it, and
then a p o l o g i z e f o r it?
(Wherein portion of March 1 videotape is played)
There's your motive as sad as it is.
J u s t as Teresa's lifeless body was consumed by
that f i r e on Halloween night, the defendant's
presumption of innocence has been consumed by t h e
fires of his own desire. He wanted to know what

it w a s like. His presumption of i n n o c e n c e has
been destroyed by t h e f i r e s of his own guilt.
152
There's o n l y one verdict here f o r each
c o u n t , and t h a t ' s a verdict of guilty. And we
ask you to bring that v e r d i c t . We a s k you to
bring j u s t i c e f o r Teresa. Thank you.
THE COURT: Uh, ladies and gentlemen, I'm
g o i n g t o read you a closing instruction and s e v e r a l
others.
Now, members of t h e jury, the duties of
counsel and the Court have been performed. The

case h a s been argued by counsel. The C o u r t has
instructed you r e g a r d i n g t h e rules of law which
should govern you in your deliberations. The

time has now come when the g r e a t burden of
reaching a j u s t , f a i r and conscientious d e c i s i o n
of t h i s case is t o be thrown w h o l l y upon you, t h e
jurors, selected f o r this important d u t y .
You will not be swayed by sympathy,
prejudice or passion. You will be very c a r e f u l
a n d deliberate i n weighing the evidence. I

charge you to keep your duty s t e a d f a s t l y in mind
and, as u p r i g h t c i t i z e n s , t o r e n d e r a just and
true verdict.
T h e f o l l o w i n g forms of verdict will be
submitted to you concerning the charges against
the defendant, Brendan Dassey .

153
We, the jury, f i n d t h e d e f e n d a n t ,
Brendan R. Dassey, guilty of first degree
intentional homicide, as a p a r t y to a crime, on
October 31, 2005, c o n t r a r y to S e c t i o n s 940.01

(1) ( a ) , 9 3 9 . 5 0 (3) ( a ) , 939.05 Wisconsin Statutes.
We, the j u r y , f i n d t h e defendant,

Brendan R. Dassey, not guilty of f i r s t degree
intentional homicide, as a party to a crime, on
October 31, 2005, contrary to S e c t i o n s 940.01
(1)(a), 939 -- excuse me -- uh, 50 point -- uh,
(3)(a), 939.05, Wisconsin S t a t u t e s .
We, the jury, find t h e defendant,
Brendan R . Dassey, guilty of mutilating a corpse,
a s a p a r t y to a crime, on O c t o b e r 31, 2005,
contrary to Sections 940.11 (I), 939.50 (3)( £ 1 ,
939.05 Wisconsin S t a t u t e s .
We, t h e j u r y , f i n d t h e defendant,
Brendan R. Dassey, n o t guilty of mutilating a
corpse, as a party to a crime, on October 31,
2005, contrary to Sections 940.11 (I), 939.50
(3) (f), 939.05 Wisconsin S t a t u t e s .
We, the jury, find the defendant,

Brendan R . Dassey, guilty of second degree sexual
assault, as a p a r t y to a crime, on October 31,
2005, contrary to Sections 940.225 ( 2 ) ( a ) , 939.50
154
( 3 ) ( c ) , 939.05 Wisconsin Statutes.
We, the jury, find the defendant,

Brenden R. Dassey, n o t guilty of second degree
sexual a s s a u l t , as a party to a crime, on

October 31, 2005, contrary to Sections 940.225
( 2 ) (a), 939.50 ( 3 ) (c), 939.05 Wisconsin Statutes.
We, t h e j u r y , find the defendant,

Brendan R. Dassey, guilty of first degree
reckless homicide, as a party to a crime, a
lesser included offense, on October 31, 2005,
contrary to Sections 940.02 (1) and 939.05
Wisconsin Statutes.
We, the j u r y , f i n d the defendant,
Brendan R . Dassey, n o t guilty o f f i r s t degree
reckless homicide, as a p a r t y to a crime, a
lesser included offense, on October 31, 2005,
contrary to Sections 9 4 0 . 0 2 (1) and 939.05
Wisconsin Statutes.
It is for you to determine whether t h e

defendant is guilty or n o t guilty of each of t h e
o f f e n s e s charged. You must make a finding as to

each count of the Information. Each count
charges a separate crime and you must consider
each one separately. Your verdict f o r t h e crime
charged in one count must not affect your verdict
155
on any o t h e r count.
This is a criminal, n o t a civil, case.
Therefore, before the jury may return a verdict
which may be -- legally be received, the verdict
must be reached unanimously. In a criminal case,
a l l 12 j u r o r s must agree in order to arrive at a
verdict.
When you retire to the j u r y room, s e l e c t
one of your members to preside over your
deliberation. That p e r -- that person's vote is
entitled to no greater w e i g h t than the v o t e of
a n y o t h e r juror.
When you have agreed upon your verdict,
have it signed a n d d a t e d by the person you have
selected to preside.
Before we swear t h e j u r y officer, I'm
going to, uh, a s k t h e clerk to draw three names
from t h e tumbler. The first t w o of t h o s e names
will be j u r o r s who are discharged. The third
will be a juror who w i l l remain sequestered.
A s to the discharged j u r o r s , I'm going

to order t h e following:
That you are n o t to discuss the matter
with the media or anyone else until a verdict has
been received by this C o u r t .
156
Uh, once the verdict is received, you
may, but are under no obligation to, discuss your
participation in the case with the media or
anyone you choose to discuss it with.
Madam c l e r k .
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, one thing, I --

THE COURT: Oh --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Are we -- a r e we
g o i n g to keep the name --
THE COURT: I -- I -- thank you f o r
reminding me. I'm going to ask at this p o i n t
that -- that any audio be muted so that any name is
not a -- a matter of public broadcast. T h a n k you.
THE CLERK: The f i r s t one is No. 11, Renee

Schmidt.
THE COURT: All right. Remain there
just a second, Ms. Schmidt -- Schmidt.
THE CLERK: Second one is No. 10,
Cynthia Edge.
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Edge and Ms.
Schmidt, uh, stay t h e r e j u s t for a moment, but you
will be the -- t h e jurors who are -- are discharged.
Draw the third name, please.

THE CLERK: Third one is No. 1, Thomas
Oa k e s .
157
THE COURT: All r i g h t . The three of you
would exit t h e jury box, please, a n d j o i n t h e
officer here. He will -- he will, uh, escort you

out. All right.
Would you swear t h e jury o f f i c e r ,
please?
(Wherein bailiff is sworn)
THE COURT: Madam Bailiff, here are the
original verdict form and 12 forms for t h e jurors t o

review.
(Jury out at 4 : 2 6 p.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated. The C o u r t is g o i n g

to adjourn during the deliberations. Uh, of course,
we may have to r e t u r n in the event questions are
asked. Uh, the Court will provide a -- an h o u r s

notice, uh, to the, uh, people who request it, uh,
after the return of the verdict, before the verdict
is announced, which may or may not be tonight. All

right? We're adjourned.
(Recess had a t 4:27 p.m.)
(Reconvened at 10:lO p . m . J u r y in)
THE COURT: T h i s is S t a t e of Wisconsin vs.
Brendan Dassey 0 6 CF 88. Uh, appearances, p l e a s e .
ATTORNEY KRATZ: The State continues in

its appearance by Special Prosecutors Ken K r a t z ,
158
N o r m Gahn and Tom Fallon.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Attorney Mark Frerngen
appears with Attorney Ray Edelstein. Defendant
appears in person.
THE COURT: We're here now to receive t h e

verdicts from t h i s jury. Before t h e Court receives
and reads t h e verdicts, I want to remind a l l those
present that this is a court of law. The Court
recognizes the emotional nature of this case and its
importance to all parties involved. However, vocal
o u t b u r s t s o r d i s p l a y s of emotion will not be
tolerated. Any violation will result in removal
from t h e courtroom.
Uh, ladies and gentlemen, have you
chosen a foreperson?
JUROR: Yes.
THE COURT: I ask that t h e foreperson hand
to the jury bailiff these verdicts.
As to Count 1, we, t h e jury, f i n d t h e
defendant, Brendan R. Dassey, guilty of first
d e g r e e intentional homicide, a s party to a c r i m e ,
on October 31, 2005, c o n t r a r y to S e c t i o n s 940.01
(1)( a ) , 939.50 ( 3 ) ( a ) , 939.05 Wisconsin Statutes.
Dated this 2 5 t h day of April, 2007, and signed by
the foreperson.
159
As to Count 2, we, t h e jury, find t h e
d e f e n d a n t , Brendan R. Dassey, guilty of
mutilating a corpse, a s party to a crime, on
October 31, 2 0 0 5 , c o n t r a r y to Sections 940.11
(1), 939.50 ( 3 ) ( f ) , 939.05 Wisconsin statutes.
Dated this 25th day of April, 2007, and signed by
the foreperson of t h e jury.
As to Count 3 , we, the jury, f i n d t h e

defendant, Brendan R . Dassey, guilty of second
degree sexual assault, as p a r t y to a crime, on
October 31, 2005, contrary to Sections 940.225
( 2 ) (a), 939.50 ( 3 ) ( c ) , 939.05 Wisconsin Statutes.
Dated t h i s 25th day of April, 2007.
I'm going to poll t h e j u r y at this

juncture. I a s k that, uh, a n y audio that is
c u r r e n t l y being r u n in the courtroom be muted or
turned off.
And I'm going to start, uh, in chair No.

2, and ask, uh, Mr. Hughes, were these your
verdicts as read -- read by t h e Court and are

these still now your verdicts in t h i s case?
JUROR HUGHES: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. Tedder, w e r e these your

verdicts as read -- read by t h e Court and are
they still now your verdicts in this case?
160
JUROR TEDDER: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. Shea, were these your
verdicts as read by the C o u r t and are they now s t i l l
your verdicts in this case?
JUROR SHEA: Yes.

THE COURT: Ms. Durst, uh, were these your
verdicts as read by the Court and a r e they s t i l l now
your verdicts in t h i s case?
JUROR DURST: Yes.
THE COURT: Mr. H e i n z e l , were these your
verdicts as read by C o u r t and are they s t i l l now
JUROR HEINZEL: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. Foss, were these your
verdicts as read by the Court and are they now s t i l l
JUROR FOSS: Yes.
THE COURT: I'll go to t h e f r o n t row.

Mr. Covington, were these your v e r d i c t s as read
by the C o u r t a n d are they now s t i l l your verdicts
in this case?
JUROR COVINGTON: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. Running, were these your
verdicts as read by the Court and are they now s t i l l
I61
JUROR RUNNING: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. Orth, were these your
verdicts a s read by the Court and are they still now

your verdicts i n this case?
JUROR ORTH: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. McGuire, w e r e these your
verdicts as read by the Court and are t h e y s t i l l now
JUROR McGUIRE: Yes.
THE COURT: Ms. Lowery, were these your
verdicts a s read by the Court and are they s t i l l now
JUROR LOWERY: Yes.
THE COURT: I'm sorry?

JUROR LOWERY: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Shippy, were
these your verdicts a s read by t h e Court and are
they s t i l l now your verdicts in this c a s e ?
JUROR SHIPPY: Yes.
THE COURT: The polling has, uh, been
corn -- completed. Members of the jury, uh, on
behalf of Manitowoc County, I would l i k e to express
my sincerest gratitude and appreciation for your

service in this case. I recognize, particularly in
this case, that personal s a c r i f i c e in terms of time
162
a n d r e s t r i c t i o n s on your normal activities have been
required by this t r i a l . That s a c r i f i c e is a
necessary part of the price we pay f o r the judicial
system every citizen enjoys. You, as jurors, act a s
the collective conscience of the community in making

these decisions. Again, I thank you.
Before discharging you, I have one f i n a l
instruction.
Now, that your service in t h i s case is
completed, some of you may have questions about
the confidentiality of t h e proceedings. Many
j u r o r s a s k if they are at liberty to discuss the
case with anyone after r e c e i v i n g the verdicts.
Because your role i n the case is over, you are
free to discuss it with any person you choose.
However, you s h o u l d know t h a t you do n o t have to
discuss the case w i t h anyone or answer any
questions about it from anyone other than the

Court.
If you do decide to discuss the case
with anyone, I would suggest you treat any
discussion with a degree of solemnity such that
whatever you do say, you would be willing to say
in t h e presence of your fellow j u r o r s or under

oath here in open court in the presence of t h e
163
parties. Also, always keep in mind if you do
decide to discuss the case, that your fellow
jurors fully and f r e e l y stated their opinions

with the understanding they were being expressed
in confidence. Please respect t h e privacy of t h e
views of your fellow j u r o r s .
If any member or members of t h e j u r y
wish to discuss the case t h i s e v e n i n g with
representatives of the media, a r r a n g e --
arrangements can be made to permit you to do so
before you leave. Uh, if you wish to do s o , l e t

the bailiff know that that is your d e s i r e .
Should anyone, whether from t h e media or
otherwise, persist in attempting to question you
over your objection, you should contact this
Court.
Finally, should any of you have any
questions f o r the Court before leaving this

evening, please l e t the bailiff know before you
leave t h e j u r y room.
Again, thank you. You a r e now excused
and discharged.
( J u r y excused at 10:17 p.m.)
THE COURT: Mr. K r a t z , I see the microphone

in f r o n t of you. Do you have a motion?
164
ATTORNEY K M T Z : I do, Judge. I 'd ask
t h a t the C o u r t enter judgment on the verdicts.
THE COURT: The Court will, based on these
verdicts, enter judgment of guilty, uh, as r e f l e c t e d
in the verdicts of t h i s j u r y .
Uh, are w e prepared a t t h i s p o i n t t o set
a sentencing date?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Uh, w e can certainly
s e t t h e date, Judge. There are two requests that
I would make. First, I would ask the Court, uh,

order a, uh, presentence, uh, investigative
report. I'm sure, uh, that, uh, will be done as

a matter of c o u r s e .
Secondly, given the nature of the, uh,
convictions, uh, and although, uh, the bond and
bail that h a s been s e t in this case, uh, is,
uh -- is r a t h e r high, uh, given the mandatory
sentence, uh, that is, uh, necessary and
imperative in this case, uh, I would ask t h a t t h e
C o u r t , uh, revoke b a i l at t h i s time.
THE COURT: Defense wish to be heard?
THE COURT: A l l right. The -- t h e C o u r t
will, for the -- the reasons stated by t h e
p r o s e c u t o r , revoke t h e bail in this case. Court
165
will order that a presentence investigation be
completed by J u l y 9, 2007. I would like to set
sentencing for July 17, 2007, and this assumes that
your calendars are open on that day.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, I have a
two-day trial Monday a n d Tuesday of that week.
THE COURT: Your calendar's not open.
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: It is not open.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Perhaps t h e week before
that, Judge. I know at t h e end of J u l y I have a,
urn -- a week-long a r s o n trial. But if the Court
could s e t it, perhaps -- uh, maybe move up t h e ,
uh -- the PSI and set it f o r t h e second week of
July.
THE COURT: Uh, t h e d i f f i c u l t y is in moving

up t h e PSI.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I understand.

THE COURT: I -- I -- I'm sort of
cutting it close on that one in the first
instance. I could certainly s e t , uh -- s e t it
e i t h e r l a t e r on in J u l y toward the a b s o l u t e end
or t h e beginning of August if that's --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: The first couple of
days of A u g u s t would be j u s t fine, Judge.
166
THE COURT: How about Monday, August 6?
THE COURT: Nine o'clock a.m.?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: August 6 at 9?
THE COURT: Yeah.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: That will work o u t

fine. Thank you, Judge.
THE CLERK: Do you s t i l l want the P S I to be
done by July --
THE COURT: Actually, we can move the
PSI, uh, to the --
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Sixteenth maybe?
That's a week l a t e r .
THE COURT: Yeah. The 16th, uh, is a
S a t u r d a y , s o -- Well, that's June. Excuse me. Uh,
yeah, 16th is a Monday. Thatts f i n e . PSI will be

d u e then on the 16th.
THE CLERK: Do you want an order d r a f t e d
on the bail revocation?
THE COURT: The S t a t e will d r a f t the order
on t h e bail modification.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: I will, Judge.
THE COURT: Sentencing, 9:00, uh, August 6.
Anything more to come before the C o u r t this evening?
167
ATTORNEY KRATZ: N o t t o d a y , Judge, t h a n k
you.

THE COURT: Good evening, then.
(Court s t a n d s adjourned at 10:20 p.m.)

)SS.
R e p o r t e r f o r Circuit Court Branch 3 and t h e S t a t e
of Wisconsin, do hereby certify that I reported
the foregoing matter and that the foregoing
transcript has been carefully p r e p a r e d by m e w i t h
my computerized stenographic notes as t a k e n by m e
i n machine s h o r t h a n d , and by computer-assisted
transcription t h e r e a f t e r transcribed, a n d that it
is a true and correct transcript of the
p r o c e e d i n g s had in said matter to the best of my
Dated this d day o f & r 2 m h j , 2007.
169
STATE OF WISCONSIN : C I R C U I T COURT : MANITOWOC COUNTY
BRANCH 3
STATE O F WISCONSIN,
PLAINTIFF, SENTENCING HEARING

vs . Case No. 0 6 CF 8 8
BRENDAN R. DASSEY,
DEFENDANT.
DATE : AUGUST 2 , 2007

APPEZRANCES :
KENNETH R. KFLATZ
Special Prosecutor
THOMAS FALLON
Special Prosecutor
NORMAN A . GAHN
On b e h a l f of the State of Wisconsin.
MARK R. FREMGEN
Attorney a t Law
On b e h a l f of t h e defendant.
RAYMOND L . EDELSTEIN
Attorney at Law
O n behalf of the d e f e n d a n t .
BRENDAN R. DASSEY
Defendant
Appeared i n person.
-- 2
1 COPY
R e p o r t e d by J e n n i f e r K. Hau, RPR
O f f i c i a l C o u r t Reporter
THE COURT: Good morning. This is the
S t a t e of Wisconsin v s . Brendan Dassey, Case N o .
06 CF 88. Appearances, please.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: The S t a t e appears by
Calumet County District A t t o r n e y Ken K r a t z ,
Assistant A t t o r n e y General Tom F a l l o n , A s s i s t a n t
District A t t o r n e y N o r m Gahn, all appearing as
special p r o s e c u t o r s .
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: The d e f e n d a n t appears
i n person with Attorneys Mark Fremgen a n d Raymond
Edelstein.
THE COURT: On A p r i l , 25, 2007 following
approximately nine days of trial, a j u r y r e t u r n e d a
v e r d i c t finding Brendan Dassey, this d e f e n d a n t ,
guilty of first degree intentional homicide a s p a r t y
Lo the crime, mutilating a corpse as p a r t y to t h e
crime, and second degree sexual assault as party to
the crime.
The charges for which he was convicted
stem from the sexual assault and murder of Teresa

Halbach on or about October 31, 2005 at property
occupied, among others, by Steven Avesy, the
defendant's uncle, who has also been convicted of
f i r s t degree intentional homicide.
After the judgment of conviction w a s
3
entered, the C o u r t ordered a presentence report.
Uh, addressing myself f i r s t to you, Mr. K r a t z ,

have you received it?
ATTORNEY KRFaTZ: Yes, Judge, as w e l l
as --
THE COURT: The addendum?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: -- the addendum.
THE COURT: Any corrections -- f a c t u a l
corrections that you wish to make?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: There are some slight,
uh, differences, Judge, to the statement of f a c t s
as set f o r t h in t h e , urn, p r e s e n t e n c e . Uh, t h e y
are not, however, significant enough f o r , uh, me
to, uh, enumerate at this time. Uh, and other
than that, Judge, the presentence appears
accurate and I have nothing by way of correction.

THE COURT: Mr. Fremgen, have you
received it?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I did receive both as

well. I had an opportunity to speak with my
client and read him both t h e presentence, the
attached letters, as well as t h e addendum and
attached l e t t e r s . Urn, we have no f a c t u a l
corrections to make to either.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kratz, has the,
4
uh, prosecution complied with 971.095 (2) relating
t o notification of victim's family?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: We have, Judge. And I
should also tell the Court that all other
provisions of Chapter 950 have also been complied

with.
THE COURT: All right. Urn, starting,
again, w i t h you, ME. Kratz, are -- are you going to

be offering, on behalf of the State, any statements
from -- from, uh, the family or o t h e r s ?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: As the Court knows, uh,
Your Honor, several, uh, family, uh, and friends
of the deceased victim took the opportunity to
provide w r i t t e n statements both f o r the
presentence writer's consideration as well as the
Court.
There are three individuals, however,

today, that wish to take advantage of t h e
provision to give an oral, uh, impact statement.
That would be, uh, Teresa's, uh, aunt, uh, as
well as, uh, t w o brothers. Uh, again, intending

to give b r i e f oral impact statements, and when
the C o u r t is prepared to receive those, they are
prepared to give them.
THE COURT: Thank you. Uh, Mr. Fremgen,
5
anyone going to be giving statements on behalf of
t h e defendant?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Judge, two
individuals wish to make b r i e f statements to the
Court. Urn, Barb, uh, Tadych, my client's mother,

although she also provided a letter to the
presentence writer, and Brad Dassey is my
client's h a l f brother.
THE COURT: All right. I'll note f o r the
record we had a brief conversation in chambers prior
to coming out here. Uh, part of the subject of that

conversation was not only t h e statements about which
we -- we, uh, had some discussion, b u t the fact that
t h e right of allocution, that is, the right of the
defendant to offer a statement on his own behalf,
uh, will, if he wants t o exercise it, be exercised

following t h e statements that we have just now
discussed. Is -- is that correct, first of all,
Mr. Kratz?
THE COURT: All right. You may proceed,
Mr. K r a t z .
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Judge. We call
6
forward, uh, Kay Giordana.
MS. GIORDANA: Judge Fox, my name is Kay
Giordana. Teresa was my niece, my godchild.
Brendan Dassey was g i v e n a choice. He could have
been a national hero o r a m u r d e r e r , and he

decided to be a murderer.
When we were looking for Teresa, he knew

where she was and he did nothing. He knew of
Steven A v e r y v s plan to murder Teresa and he d i d
nothing to prevent it. H e is a coward and a
disgrace. Brendan Dassey had a choice and Teresa
did n o t . H e killed h e r w i t h no remorse. He
deserves only l i f e in prison without p a r o l e .
Brendan Dassey has shown us he has no

respect for life. Please hold him accountable
for his actions. His participation in Teresa's

death has caused extreme emotional and m e n t a l
s u f f e r i n g i n our family. Please keep h i m in
prison for t h e rest of h i s life. Thank you.

MR. MIKE HALBACH: Good morning, Judge
Fox, my name is Mike Halbach.

THE COURT: I was g o i n g to a s k you to
identify yourself for the r e c o r d .
MR. MIKE HALBACH: My name is Mike
7
Halbach and I f m Teresa's younger b r o t h e r . On
October 31, 2005, Brendan Dassey had t h e

opportunity to choose a l i f e l o n g t i t l e f o r
h i m s e l f ; r a p i s t and murderer, or hero. It's such
an easy decision that the fact that any person,
young or old, who can choose the former has to be
h e l d accountable.
Judge Fox, here1s a young man who, in
late February of 2006, I thought -- I thought
maybe deserved some credit for coming forward
with information he had regarding my sister's
death, both confirming Steven Avery's
involvement, as well as imp -- implicating
himself. I t h o u g h t maybe h e f e l t s o r r y and
ashamed for what h e had done. I thought, w e l l ,
h e s t i l l must be h e l d accountable, maybe to a
lesser degree.
Just a few months later, however, he
recanted his confession. He has consistently
refused plea deals which would have made our
lives easier amiss -- amidst this t r a g e d y , a n d to
his benefit would have made a sentence shorter

for doing so.
He has made t h e s e choices seemingly with
t h e hope of n o t having to hold himself
8
accountable for what he did to my sister.
Judge Fox, I would not have a s k e d you to
s e n d a h e r o to p r i s o n , b u t I will -- but I will
a s k you to send this rapist and murderer to
prison for the rest of his life without ever
becoming eligible for parole. Thank you.
MR. TIM ElALBACH: I'm Tim Halbach,
Teresa s o l d e r brother. Judge Fox, I 'rn here
today to res -- respectfully r e q u e s t t h a t t h i s
C o u r t s e n d Brendan Dassey t o prison f o r the rest
of his l i f e without ever -- ever having t h e
possibility of extended supervision or p a r o l e .
He raped and k i l l e d m y s i s t e r , and he
mutilated h e r body. And f o r that alone, he
deserves to spend the rest of h i s life i n p r i s o n .

Now, I u n d e r s t a n d , Judge, t h a t you have
the power to set a date that Brendan Dassey is
eligible w i t h t h e possibility of extended
supervision, and the minimum date t h a t you could
set is 20 years, which is essentially the
minimum -- minimum s e n t e n c e that Brendan Dassey
could receive. However, I see no reason that
this Court s h o u l d grant Brendan D a s -- Brendan
Dassey a n y such leniency.

Over the last 21 -- 21 months, he has
9
not apologized for his a c t i o n s , n o r has he shown
any remorse, nor did he, in any way, assist the
prosecution team or the police in the prosecution
of his uncle, Steven Avery. In short, Brendan

Dassey has done nothing to warrant the minimum
sentence.
One of the reasons that our society has
a Criminal Justice S y s t e m is to d e t e r o t h e r s from
commit -- committing similar crimes. What kind
of deterrent is -- is it if we give Brendan
Dassey the minimum sentence when he raped and
murdered a complete stranger, and mutilated h e r
body, and did n o t h i n g to earn any leniency from
this C o u r t ?
For these seasons, I am a s k i n g this
Court impose the maximum sentence, which is to
send Brendan Dassey to prison for the rest of his

life without ever having the possibility of
extended supervision. Thank you.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge --
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: -- I believe Barb
Tadych would like to speak on behalf of Brendan.
THE COURT: Ms. Tadych? Please i d e n t i f y
yourself f o r the record.
10
MS. TADYCH: My n a m e ' s Barbara Tadych.
And a l l I got t o s a y i s my son did not do this.
He was more o r less coerced i n s a y i n g what he
s a i d , a n d I believe that he should be -- maybe
get a l i t t l e bit for s a y i n g a s t o r y , but I don't
t h i n k he ought to deserve l i f e .
THE COURT: Anything else?
MS. TADYCH: J u s t that he's i n n o c e n t .
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Uh, Judge, Brad

Dassey, who i s Brendan's h a l f b r o t h e r , would a l s o
like to provide a statement.
THE COURT: Mr. Dassey?

MR. BRAD DASSEY: Good morning. I'm
Brad Dassey, B r e n d a n ' s h a l f brother. A l l I have
t o s a y i s , uh, only G o d knows what happened.

And, uh, I feel for the Halbach family as well.
Nobody deserves to d i e and be killed, but I j u s t
pray that, uh, everybody c a n f i n d s o m e kind of
peace in t h e i r l i f e .
I believe that my b r o t h e r does n o t

deserve l i f e . 1 believe that h e deserves some
k i n d of s e n t e n c e b u t not l i f e i n p r i s o n . Hevs a
young child for -- f o r God's s a k e , and I j u s t

pray that, uh, you go easy on him, J u d g e Fox.
The b r o t h e r that I know is a fun-loving
11
brother who would never really do anything to
hurt anybody. From the time I s p e n t with him,
Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and whatnot, he was
a c a r i n g brother. If he did, indeed, help Steven

Avery, he was forced by Steven.
I think today's society ought to be

changed. I t h i n k a lot has to influence with the
media and what today's society with violence,
drugs, killings, s e x , and I think that this world
can be changed for the better.
I j u s t p r a y that you go easy on him,

Judge Fox, and that if you do give him l i f e , you
have e l i g i b i l i t y f o r p a r o l e . Thank you.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, urn, we have no
additional testimonials or statements. I just, uh,

b r i e f l y spoke with Brendan. He does understand his
right to make a statement, his right to allocution.
He does n o t wish to exercise that.
THE COURT: Well, why don't you p u t the

microphone in f r o n t of him; Mr. Dassey, you
understand t h a t before s e n t e n c i n g you have a right
to tell this Court about any factor t h a t you think
r e l a t e s to sentencing? You understand that?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
12
THE COURT: You don't have to s a y anything
if you don't want to. Do you understand that as
well?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: B u t if you have something to
say, something that you think might help me,
something -- some factor that you -- y o u t d like the
Court to con -- consider, you c a n do that now. Do
you understand that?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
THE COURT: Do you want to do that now?
Do you want to say anything?
THE DEFENDANT: I don't know what to say.

THE COURT: Well, it's up to you. As I
said, you don't have to say anything if you don't
wish. B u t if you've got something you'd l i k e to
tell the Court, l i k e t o tell t h e people assembled
here, now is your time to say it.
THE DEFENDANT: J u s t that I didn't do it
and I couldn't do nothing l i k e that.
THE COURT: Anything else?
THE DEFENDANT: No.
THE COURT: All right. Any further

statements, M r . Fremgen?
ATTORNEY FEtEMGEN: Uh, no, Judge, n o t ,
13
uh, testimonial statements.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Court's going to
note, uh, that in addition to the testimonial
statements it's -- it's heard here today, as I
believe the district attorney mentioned, a number of

statements were appended to the presentence
investigation. Statements, uh, some in letter form,
some -- some simply i n statement form.
I'm going to enumerate, uh, the a u t h o r s
of those statements j u s t f o r this record. Urn,
the Court read them and considered them. They
were from Brendan Dassey, this d e f e n d a n t ; Barbara
Tadych, h i s mother; Pete Dassey, his father;
Blaine Dassey, his brother; C a r l a Chase, Brendan
Dasseyls c o u s i n ; Mike Kornely, someone who knew
Brendan and his brother, Brain -- Blaine, and
briefly employed Brendan; Tom and Karen Halbach,
Teresa Halbach's p a r e n t s ; Timothy Halbach,
Teresa's brother; Gina Lemberger and family.
Apparently, Ms. Lemberger is a cousin and friend
of, uh, Teresa Halbach. Kay Gio-rdana, aunt and
godmother of Teresa Halbach; Mike Halbach,
Teresafs brother; Maria Halbach; and, uh, lastly,
Trinity Rosenow, who is a -- was a close friend
of Teresa's.
14
Uh, Mr. Kratz, a r e you prepared to
proceed?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Yes, Judge.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Thank you, Your Honor.

The t h r e e primary factors this Court need to
consider in, uh, this, as well as any sentencing,
are the character of the offender, t h e seriousness
of the offense, and the need to protect the public.
I i n t e n d to b r i e f l y address each of those f a c t o r s as
I'm sure the C o u r t , uh, will be considering those.
F i r s t , the character of Mr. Dassey.
Although it's t r u e he has no prior criminal
record and may, in fact, have been, uh, coaxed
into or seduced, even, uh, into being involved in
this crime by his uncle, uh, Steven Avery, uh,
Mr. Dasseyfs dangerousness, I think, uh, is

something that needs to be, uh, considered.
Clearly, as many of the written and oral
statements noted, Mr. Dassey had some choices to
make on the 31st of October in 2005. Uh, a
choice to e i t h e r assist, uh, and, in fact, save
the l i f e of Teresa Halbach, or a choice to be
involved i n rape, torture, murder, and
mutilation. Mr. Dassey made a series of
15
i n c r e d i b l y , uh, poor choices, a n d t h a t b r i n g s u s ,
certainly, uh, here today.
Uh, when l o o k i n g at Mr. Dassey's
behavior thereafter, uh, for four months
Mr. Dassey maintained silence, did not assist the
investigation or the prosecution at all. Uh,

although, eventually, did give an incriminating
statement, incriminating not just for himself but
against, uh, his Uncle Steven, and, uh, although
recanting, uh, very shortly thereafter,
Mr. Dassey o r i g i n a l l y deserved, and p r o b a b l y
today, uh, deserves some modicum of c r e d i t , uh,
for that involvement or that benefit to the
investigation and to the prosecution.

But thereafter, Mr. Dassey has done
nothing to ensure j u s t i c e for the murder of
Teresa Halbach, and nor f o r t h e Halbach, uh,
family. Uh, even today, or at l e a s t in g i v i n g

his statement to t h e presentence writer, he
chooses to blame law enforcement officers for,
-uh, his, what he c a l l s "involvementt*, uh, in this

case. What he means by that s t a t e m e n t is, uh, he
blames law enforcement for actually asking him

questions which l e d t o his a d m i s s i o n s , and, uh,
it is a -- I think, a classic, uh, statement of
16
what used to be called, uh, "criminal t h i n k i n g . "
Uh, t h a t i s , blaming law enforcement for getting
caught rather than taking responsibility for
one's actions.
That brings us to the t w o more important
factors to be considered by this Court. The

seriousness of the offense and the need to
protect the public. Uh, this case, and t h e
seriousness of it, cannot be overstated. The
behavior, itself, the rape, the, urn, torture,

emotional and physical, uh, the murder, itself,
and the mutilation and hiding of the evidence is,
uh, something rarely seen, uh, in, uh, t h e United

S t a t e s , f r a n k l y , and, c e r t a i n l y , uh, not in,
uh -- in this area, uh, thankfully.

Uh, but Mr. Dassey, from the beginning
of this case, made some choices, as I mentioned,
and his behavior, uh, that is, his involvement in
each one of those facets of this crime, urn, needs
to be considered.
We have three crimes f o r which
Mr. Dassey has been convicted, uh, not just the
homicide, as though the, uh, mutilation and t h e
rape, uh, need to be considered by this Court as
aggravating factor.
17
Uh, as a -- a judge, you understand your
obligation to this community, to society, if you
will, to hold individuals accountable for
behavior, and when the series of crimes are this,
urn, heinous, uh, it requires consequences that

are commensurate with that behavior.
As I t h i n k it was Mike Halbachrs o r a l

statement today, he indicated this isn't a
minimum sentence case. Nowhere near the minimum,
uh, is, uh, appropriate for all of these
aggravating factors, and all, uh, of the, uh,
horrific aspects of this case. So I'd urge the
Court to at least, uh, reject, uh, anything close
to the minimum.
The presentence discusses, uh, parole
eligibility, or what is now called extended
supervision, indicating that should be longer,
uh, in the future. Certainly nothing close to
the minimum, uh, of, uh -- of 20 years that, uh,
might be available, and I'd c e r t a i n l y ask t h e
C o u r t to adopt that philosophy as well. -
L a s t l y , Judge, the p r o t e c t i o n of t h e
public. Urn, m y primary role -- at l e a s t I
believe my primary role in this case as a
prosecutor, hinges on this particular aspect of
18
sentencing. Uh, protection of t h e public is
another way of saying, uh, why should this
community, Manitowoc, or whatever community
Brendan Dassey may be released to, uh, be
subjected, uh, to this r i s k ? Why take a chance
in the future on somebody like Brendan Dassey?

Our obligation, both the Court, and, I believe,
my obligation as a prosecutor, is to try to
extrapolate Mr. Dasseyfs choices or his behavior,
uh, into the future, and I can't help b u t t h i n k
that there is nothing. There is no evidence t h a t
would suggest that Mr. Dassey will be making or
is prepared to make any better choices in t h e
future.
Uh, his attitude, I think, clearly

places the community at r i s k , or will place the
community at risk upon his, uh, release, and,
again, as the prosecutor, at least, that's not
something I'm willing to subject the people of
Manitowoc County to. His indifference that he

has - shown, - uhy -sincet h e 5 mt i y a t 5 - 0 ~-- 1- ~
-
. - ..
-. .- ---
throughout this t r i a l , uh, even, uh, today at the
time of sentencing, uh, I think is nothing short
of chilling. Uh, it is, uh, something that this

Court should consider.
19
H i s demeanor on t h e witness stand.
Again, his d i s t a i n f o r law enforcement, f o r any,
uh, authority, uh, f i g u r e . His, uh, stating,
almost with pride, that, like the rest of the
Averys, he hates law enforcement, and it seems
that, uh, everything that, uh -- that t h e y stand
for.
And so t h e protection of t h e p u b l i c ,
Judge, I think requires, uh, a n extremely lengthy
sentence. It would be easy, uh, for me to
recommend life without t h e possibility o f
e x t e n d e d supervision, and, i n all candor, that is
something that this Court, uh, may, in f a c t ,
choose, and something that we, originally, as the
prosecution team, believed was appropriate
because we, uh, searched long a n d hard f o r
something. Something that was mitigating in this
particular case, uh, f o r , uh, Mr. Dassey, and b u t
f o r his age, uh, which is, uh, nothing, uh, that
he has done by way of behavior, uh, we really,

uh, couldn't find any.
However, uh, w e d i d finally decide that
he had to be treated at least somewhat
differently than his uncle, Steven Avery. That
is, that we honestly, and, again, with candor,
20
believed that Brendan Dassey would not have
involved h i m s e l f i n t h i s series of behavior
w i t h o u t the u r g i n g , without the involvement of
Steven Avery.
And although that perhaps doesn't
diminish his responsibility, that is, doesn't
diminish the accountability for Brendan, we do
believe that, as the presentence writer says,
there should be some light at the end of the

tunnel for Brendan. Uh, something that, uh,
suggests that, uh, Brendan be e l i g i b l e a t some
p o i n t , again, no assurance of p a r o l e e l i g i b i l i t y ,
b u t , uh, a t least the possibility.
And so, uh, many of the written
statements c a l l f o r the mandatory life sentence,
which I t h i n k i s a p p r o p r i a t e , uh, but on the

homicide case, Judge, it is t h e r e s p e c t f u l
recommendation of the State of Wisconsin that
Brendan Dassey be eligible f o r e x t e n d e d
supervision in 50 years. T h a t i s 5-0.
Uh, s i n c e 2 0 years is t h e minimum time
that is, uh, allowable by s t a t u t e , uh, that is,

uh, subsection (3) of the applicable 973.014,
subsection, uh, (lg), urn, we think that this
Court setting a date c e r t a i n of 50 years from the
21
time of the commission of the crime. Again,
allowing c r e d i t for t h e time that Brendan, uh,
has been incarcerated since this case began, uh,
does take all of t h o s e factors into
consideration; t h e c h a r a c t e r o f -- excuse m e --
of Brendan, h i s lack of prior record, the
punishment, and most importantly, the protection
of the public. I would once again urge the C o u r t

consider those t w o o t h e r convictions as well.
The, uh, presentence writer believes

that concurrent, uh, imprisonment, uh, is
appropriate for the sexual assault and f o r t h e ,
uh, mutilation charge. If t h e C o u r t adopts our
recommendation, t h a t i s , uh, mandatory life

imprisonment with 50 years eligibility for
extended supervision, we have no o b j e c t i o n to
concurrent time.
If the Court chooses a lesser period of
time, however, we believe, then, that consecutive
sentences, since additional harm came to Teresa,
- - an additional- punishment is c e r t a i n l y appropriate

f o r those aggravating factors. That's all we
have in this case, Judge. Thank you.

ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Thank you, Judge. I
agree with t h e starting point t h a t typically in a
sentencing that the Court considers those t h r e e
main f a c t o r s . But I don't think this is a

typical sentence.
This, however, prior to March 1, 2006,
was a typical teenager. He had t h e typical

teenager a n g s t , t h e t y p i c a l teenager l i k e s and
dislikes. He had a typical family functioning,
large family get-togethers, family that looks o u t
f o r each other, families that sometimes fight
each other, argue, vacation together, spend trips
and time together. When one person needs a baby
sitter, someone else p i c k s up the s l a c k .
Brendan was also typical in that he went
to s c h o o l . Now, he wasn't t y p i c a l as a s t u d e n t .
As the, uh, school records that have been placed
i n evidence previously at trial indicate, he was
low-functioning a t school, he had memory
deficits, uh, reading disabilities. He was below

the average in class, and from their own, urn,
examinations found him to have low-functioning
in -- uh, intelligence quotient. B e was in the
low to mid 7 0 f s , according to the school, and
pretty consistent with that done by Dr. Gordon
later.
23
Though typical that he went to school,
and t y p i c a l t h a t he tried, he didn't Rave the
typical r e s u l t s . N o t the academic scholar. He
made some friends. Not many. He wasn't the

t y p i c a l teenager from the standpoint of being
placed in some sort of a, uh, social click at
school. He was actually socially awkward and shy

in school. Made some f r i e n d s , b u t mainly had one
particular friend, an ally, and that was his
brother, Blaine.
Brendan w a s not a very motivated
teenager. That, however, is n o t a v e r y rare
breed, either, He s t i l l had aspirations, though.
He had aspirations of, at some point, despite n o t
having t h e normal school smarts, he was
interested in video games and had an interest at
some point of maybe even creating video games.
Obtaining the necessary technical training a n d
some point b e i n g able to be a productive member
of society in that regard.
Obviously, this a l l changed on March 1
of 2006. The presentence writer n o t e s , and I

believe rather a s t u t e l y , that Brendan is
typically a follower. He was not likely the
person being -- or the principal actor behind
24
Teresa Halbachls murder. 1 think one can imply
from t h e presentence writer that b u t for Steven
Avery, Brendan Dassey wouldn't be here today.
It's in the same vein that I think the

presentence writer, who notes that there should
be, quote, some light at t h e end of t h e tunnel
f o r Brendan, a light or realistic release date

for Brendan during his expected lifetime. And I
think the evidence at trial seems to support the
presentence writer's impressions as well. The
impressions of Brenders -- Brendanls dependent
character and t h e l a c k of a leading role in the
crime that he was convicted of.
Brendan is 17 years old. He is an
unsophisticated and simple p e r s o n . He's a low
cognitive functioning child. He's a follower.
He's shy and quiet, awkward in social
circumstances, not easily approachable, and from
my own personal observations, he can be very
pleasant.
Brendan has no a d u l t - or juvenile record, -
no contacts, whatsoever, w i t h either juvenile or
adult system until, obviously, March 1, 2006. I

think, all in all, he is the antithesis of his
Uncle Steven, who was c o n v i c t e d , a l s o , for the
25
killing of Teresa Halbach. And I t h i n k that to
t r e a t Brendan different than Steven Avery, as
suggested by the presentence writer, and what I
believe is also supported by the evidence
elicited at the trial, considering Brendan's
character and the implication of Steven's --
Steven Avery's influence over Brendan, I think
treating them different is appropriate.
I agree with the presentence writer's

comments. To provide a light at the end of the
tunnel, as suggested in the presentence, is
appropriate, as well as it furthers the
rehabilitative goals in the prison system by
pro -- p r o v i d i n g this additional incentive f o r
good behavior.
Eligibility is j u s t that. It's
eligibility. Doesn't guarantee any release. At
some point, Brendan would have to request an --
another court, another body, an input from the
prosecutor, as well as the victim's family, would
have to be t a h before - t h a t decision i-s-made.
And it's for that reason we're asking the Court
to consider, as a light at the e n d of t h e tunnel,
in recognition of his age, his role, in

recognition that he would be in his middle age,
26
I
or close to his middle age, at the time of his
eligibility that the Court c o n s i d e r t h e 20-year
mandatory eligibility for release. T h a n k you.
THE COURT: All r i g h t . Any response?
ATTORNEY KFCATZ: Nothing, Judge. Thank
you.
THE COURT: All right. The Court is g o i n g
to take about 15 minutes so I have an opportunity to
go over my n o t e s . We'll be back on the record a f t e r
that.
(Reconvened at 10:OO a.m.)
THE COURT: As we have heard by way of
penalties, t h e S t a t e recommended, on the major
charge, eligibility f o r extended supervision a f t e r
50 years i n c a r c e r a t i o n . The defense argued f o r 2 0

y e a r s incarceration before eligibility. The minimum
period. The author of the presentence report, the
presentence investigation, uh, suggests, a s noted by
both parties, that t h e defendant be made eligible
for extended supervision, but o n l ~ - a f t e ra
significant period of incarceration.
H e r phrase, and I t h i n k the State used
this, quote, I feel, perhaps, allowing a l i t t l e
light at the end of t h e tunnel w i l l give
27
Mr. Dassey some hope of returning to society,
albeit some time in the very distant future, end
quote.
Uh, u n d e r Wisconsin law, we have long
held that sentences imposed by a court should be
f o r t h e minimum amount of confinement or custody
which is consistent with the protection of t h e
public, t h e gravity of the offense, and the
rehabilitative needs of t h e d e f e n d a n t .
Essentially, what a court does in trying
to f a s h i o n a s e n t e n c e is consider t h e gravity of
the offense, the character of the o f f e n d e r , and
t h e needs of the community. Here, the -- the law
mandates life imprisonment. I have no
discretion, at least, with that part of the
sentence. We simply have a s t a t u t e that s a y s ,
f o r f i r s t degree intentional homicide, l i f e
imprisonment is the -- is t h e operative sentence.
The discretion that is g i v e n the C o u r t ,

and it is a limited amount of discretion, it is
-
to determine whether o r n o t release to extended .
supervision should be permitted at some future
date, and in any e v e n t , uh, n o t before 2 0 years
have been served i n prison at incarceration.
So I'm going to use those f a c t o r s that I
28
just mentioned, the gravity of the offense, the
character of the offender, and the needs of t h e

community, to discuss, really, whether extended
supervision -- eligibility for extended
supervision is appropriate in this particular
case.
First degree intentional homicide is the
most s e r i o u s offense in our criminal code. Uh,
the g r a v i t y of it, under any circumstances, can
never be understated. This homicide, the brutal
killing of Teresa Halbach, was a homicide
aggravated by t h e rape and t o r t u r e of a blameless
victim, a young photographer working for Auto
T r a d e r Magazine, who wanted to establish her own
business, who had been lured on the premises by
Steven Avery, ostensibly to t a k e p i c t u r e s of a
car.
T r i a l testimony, as well as t h e
testimonials you've heard today, and the material
that's attached to the presentence investigation,
established that Teresa Ha-lbach was, by -any-- - -.

- - .-
measure, an exceptional young woman.

She was a summa cum laude g r a d u a t e of
the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, trying to
start her own photography business. She
29
continued to be active at her o l d grade school as
a coach. She was, unquestionably, beloved of
family and friends. One measure of that is the
massive search that was organized f o r her after
she was missing. Now, she will forever be 25.
The details of the rape and murder of

Teresa Nalbach, h e r restraint in leg i r o n s and
handcuffs, the sexual assault upon her by Brendan
Dassey and Steven Avery, her stabbing by Avery
and thro -- thoat -- throat-cutting by Dassey,
were a l l p a r t of this defendant's confession, as
was the information that she pleaded w i t h him to
help her, or at least leave h e r alone.
This defendant helped h e r by

transporting h e r to the garage where Avery shot
h e r with a . 2 2 . Eventually, the two of them then
took her body to a f i r e pit, in which Avery had
started a fire, and into which they placed t h e
body.
This crime, or really these crimes, are

f a r and away the most s e r i o u s this Court has ever
had come before it, and I certainly never, ever
want to see anything l i k e it. This is sexual
assault, aggravated by torture, followed by a
brutal homicide, then, in an attempt to destroy
30
a l l traces of t h e body by b u r n i n g , and t h i s
d e f e n d a n t , by his own words, participated in all
of the most significant p a r t s of it.

Uh, the prosecution t a l k e d a b i t about
the character of the d e f e n d a n t , a n d I -- I w i s h
to ad -- address that aspect o f the s e n t e n c i n g
factor a s w e l l . Why? Why did Mr. Dassey
participate in this? I don't know t h a t w e ' l l

ever r e a l l y know, but t h e r e ' s nothing in his past
to suggest he would ever be involved i n -- i n
crimes a s h e i n o u s as this, or any crimes f o r that
matter. He had no j u v e n i l e record. T don't
believe there's a -- a record of any contacts
w i t h t h e Criminal J u s t i c e System.
H e had no drug or alcohol abuse issues
so f a r as this C o u r t is aware. The M i s h i c o t
school psychologist and coordinator of special
services t e s t i f i e d that he was not a behavioral
problem at Mishicot High School where he was in
the 10th grade.

- . -- .
-
.
He w a s - % y e a r s old -at-+* ti=-of - E h m
crimes. B a r e l y 16. His i n t e l l i g e n t t e s t s

generally ranked h i m in t h e low average range.
He took b o t h mainstream and s p e c i a l education
classes.
31
The s c h o o l had never identified him as
anyone e a s i l y influenced by others. Yet, he
involved himself in unimaginable c r i m e s . The
major reason for this involvement was no doubt
the urging of his uncle, Steven Avery. I note

that the presentence writer has a sent -- has
a -- a -- has something on -- on -- in her
report. A quote. I'll quote: Being a young man
who is very impressionable, I do not find it
unfathomable for Brendan to be influenced by his
uncle's deviant behavior, end q u o t e .
While Avery w a s probably t h e m o t i v a t i n g
force, n o t h i n g prevented t h i s defendant from
saying, no. He knows. He knew the d i f f e r e n c e

between r i g h t and wrong, good and evil. It was
his choice and he chose evil.
The defendant has recanted his
statements implicating himself in these crimes
and d e n i e s any participation on his p a r t . In h i s
t r i a l testimony, h e o f f e r e d no plausible
- - -explanations f o r h i s earlier a d m i s s k n s . Quote,- -
I don't know, quote -- end q u o t e ; quote, I made
it up; quote, it didn't happen, end q u o t e , w e r e
t y p i c a l responses t o questions asked him at t r i a l
about his previous inculpatory statements.
32
His letter, which is attached to t h e
presentence investigation, repeats these denials
and claims of innocence. F o r purposes of this
sentencing, the Court attaches no weight as an
aggravating factor to either the recantation of
the defendant's confession or his r e f u s a l to
acknowledge his guilt.
As I noted before, Wisconsin law makes
first degree intentional homicide punishable by
life in prison w i t h my discretion limited to
setting an eligibility for extended supervision
release -- release date some time after the
defendant has served at least 2 0 years, although
I am n o t , as p o i n t e d out by the prosecution,

compelled to s e t an extended supervision
eligibility date.
The Court has looked at the gravity of
these o f f e n s e s , conclude -- and concluded, as I'm
sure everyone else has a s well, that they are of

the most heinous nature. A particularly vicious
homicide o f one wi-th whom this defendant was-not- - --
even acquainted. A victim who was innocent in

all senses of t h e word. A homicide preceded by a
s e x u a l assault and followed by a corpse
mutilation.
33
That said, this defendant's youth, his
impressionability, his utter lack of
sophistication, the absence of any juvenile or
prior criminal record, and his secondary role in
the commission of these crimes serve as factors
which, while they don't explain or excuse h i s
in -- conduct, act, to some extent, as mitigating

factors for sentencing purposes.
On balance, this Court believes the

sentence -- the -- the defendant should be made
eligible for extended supervision, but only after
a substantial period of incarceration. I know
several family members suggested, uh, today that
extended supervision eligibility -- and

understand it is only that, it's eligibility,
there's no guarantee t h a t it is g o i n g to come to
pass, but some family members suggested this
should not happen, and I can fully understand
t h e i r position.
But this C o u r t has to, among o t h e r
t h i n g s , establish some sense of proportionality
in sentences. This defendant is not situated in
the same manner as his uncle, Steven Avery, for

whom extended supervision elig -- eligibility was
not granted. While he participated in this
34
crime, he does n o t bring t h e same baggage to this
C o u r t that Mr. Avery b r o u g h t to his sentencing.
T o make t h i s defendant e l i g i b l e for
extended supervision at the statutory 20-year
minimum as s u g g e s t e d by the defense, would, in
this Court's opinion, u n d u l y depreciate the
gravity of these offenses. Court believes t h a t
t h e r e i s a moral need for punishment --
substantial punishment for these crimes. This

sentence must serve as a deterrent to all others
who would even consider this kind of behavior.

The community demands a significant
period of separation from one who would willingly
participate i n t h e commission o f these horrendous
acts. Also, I believe that t h e -- the n a t u r e of
these crimes suggest t h a t this defendant needs a
substantial period of incarceration to
accommodate his rehabilitative needs.
These, t h e n , a r e the factors which this
Court's sentence will address:
For the f o r e g o i n g reason, t h e Court
sentences you, Brendan Dassey, o n the crime of
first degree intentional homicide, as party to
t h e crime, to life in prison, and determines that
you will be eligible for release to extended
35
supervision on November 1, 2048.
On the charge o f mutilating a corpse, as
p a r t y to a crime, I sentence you t o s i x years
imprisonment. Four a t i n i t i a l confinement and
t w o a t extended supervision. This s e n t e n c e w i l l

r u n concurrent w i t h the l i f e sentence.
On t h e charge of second degree sexual
assault, as party to t h e crime, after d e t e r m i n i n g

t h a t under the applicable sentencing g u i d e l i n e ,
this c r i m e r e p r e s e n t s a n aggravated violation b y
a defendant with l e s s e r r i s k f a c t o r s , I sentence
you t o 1 4 years i m p r i s o n m e n t . Ten s h a l l be a t
i n i t i a l confinement and f o u r at extended
supervision. T h i s sentence s h a l l r u n c o n c u r r e n t
w i t h t h e previous t w o sentences.
The C o u r t does not, at this stage, I
t h i n k f o r f a i r l y obvious reasons, set a n y
e x t e n d e d s u p e r v i s i o n conditions.
The Court, u n d e r the s t a t u t e , is to read

c e r t a i n w a r n i n g s a t S e c t i o n 302.114 ( 3 ) and ( 5 ) .
I 've provided those warnings t o defense- m n s e 3 : -- - - -
Uh, Counsel, will you waive the r e a d i n g of those
warnings?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Judge, we'll waive
r e a d i n g , and I can acknowledge that we actually read
36
those to Mr. Dassey.
THE COURT: So he has been provided w i t h

t h e warnings?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: Correct.
THE COURT: Uh, j u s t by way of explanation,

one warning is f o r what "bad time" c o n s t i t u t e s while
incarcerated, and how a sentence can be extended
given, uh, t h e commission of certain acts while in
prison, and the other is t h e section that t e l l s t h e
d e f e n d a n t how he can apply f o r extended supervision
at t h e time that he becomes eligible for extended
supervision. Have I c o r r e c t l y characterized t h o s e ?

THE COURT: All right. Anything you wish
to add?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: I can also add we a l s o
went through the, uh, notice of the post-conviction
rights, as well as the, uh, uh, ineligibility for
voting and possession of firearm with o u r client.
THE COURT: All right. The -- the

- defendant is to know that once he i s - a convfcted
f e l o n , a s he is, that, uh, after being a convicted
felon, if he is ever found in possession of
firearms, that, in itself, I believe under nine
f o r t y - o n e twenty-nine, constitutes a -- a separate
37
felony. Uh, a n y t h i n g more from t h e defense?
ATTORNEY FREMGEN: No, Judge. Thank you.
THE COURT: M r . Kratz?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Judge, I'm s o r r y , I -- I
didn't, uh, receive the -- the d a t e i n 2 0 4 8 t h a t the
Court --
THE COURT: November 1.
ATTORNEY KRATZ: November I . Thank you.

And I assume the Court is establishing no specific
conditions of extended supervision? That to be left
to, uh, the Department of Corrections?
THE COURT: Yeah. G i v e n t h e extended
nature of t h e incarceration, that w i l l be l e f t t o
the Department of C o r r e c t i o n s . Uh, t h e clerk

reminds me that I have to make a finding, uh,
r e g a r d i n g the eligibility for the Challenge
Incarceration Program or t h e E a r n e d Release Program.
Because of the nature of these crimes, t h e d e f e n d a n t
i s i n e l i g i b l e f o r either. Mr. Kratz, a n y t h i n g
further?
ATTORNEY KRATZ: Nothing, Judge. Thank
you.
THE COURT: All right. Uh, the d e f e n d a n t

is entitled to 534 days sentence credit. We're
adjourned.
38
ATTORNEY FREMGEN : Thank you, Judge.
(PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED. )
)SS.
I, Jennifer K. Hau, O f f i c i a l Court
Reporter for Circuit Court Branch 3 and the State
of Wisconsin, do hereby certify t h a t I reported
t h e foregoing matter and t h a t t h e foregoing
t r a n s c r i p t h a s been c a r e f u l l y prepared by m e w i t h
m y computerized stenographic notes as taken by me
in machine s h o r t h a n d , and by computer-assisted

transcription t h e r e a f t e r transcribed, and t h a t it
i s a t r u e and c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i p t of t h e
p r o c e e d i n g s had i n s a i d m a t t e r t o the best of my
Dated this 10th day of September, 2 0 0 7 .
40

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1 STATE OF WISCONSIN CIRCUIT COURT MANITOWOC COUNTY

6 vs. Case No. 06 CF 88

22 Reported by Jennifer K. Hau, RPR

23 Official Court Reporter

2 State of Wisconsin vs. Brendan R. Dassey.

4 MR. KRATZ: The State appears by Calumet

5 County District Attorney Ken Kratz. I'm

6 appearing as special prosecutor in this matter.

7 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Mr. Dassey appears with

9 THE COURT: Yeah. This is Case No.

10 06 CF 88. It's set today for an initial

11 appearance, uh, as well as bail, presumably. Uh,

13 MR. KRATZ: That's correct, Judge. The

14 first, uh, item of housekeeping, uh, Judge

15 Willis, uh, had signed an order upon a request to

16 District Attorney Rohrer to have me appointed in

17 this matter as special prosecutor. I have that

18 original form, Judge. I'd ask the Court to place

19 that in the file, if you will.

20 THE COURT: Go right ahead.

21 MR. KRATZ: This is the initial

22 appearance, Judge. This is a time for, um,

23 Mr. Dassey to receive the, um, original Criminal

24 Complaint. It's, uh, my understanding, based

25 upon conversations with Counsel, that he's

2 THE COURT: Is that correct, Counsel?

3 MR. SCZYGELSKI: We have, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Have you had an opportunity to

6 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Yes, we have, and we'll

7 waive its formal reading.

8 THE COURT: All right. Um, the next

9 matter, then, would be to set a preliminary

11 MR. SCZYGELSKI: We would normally, Judge.

12 My client and I are waiving that right.

13 THE COURT: You're handing me a waiver

15 MR. SCZYGELSKI: I am, Judge.

16 THE COURT: And you went over this with

18 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Yes, I did.

19 THE COURT: Did he appear to understand

20 what he was waiving?

21 MR. SCZYGELSKI: Yes.

22 THE COURT: Mr. Dassey, I'm going to ask

23 I'm going to show you this form. Is that your

24 signature on the front page?

25 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.

2 to go over it with your lawyer?

3 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.

4 THE COURT: Did you understand it?

5 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.

6 THE COURT: Do you understand that under

7 Wisconsin law you are entitled to what is called a

9 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.

10 THE COURT: And at that hearing, the State

11 would have to produce evidence to show that there's

12 probable cause to believe that a felony has been

13 committed and that you have committed a felony. Do

14 you understand that?

15 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.

16 THE COURT: And by waiving, or giving up

17 your right to a preliminary hearing, you are, in

18 effect, relieving the State of making that proof.

19 Do you understand that?

20 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.