Talk:List of longest-reigning monarchs

14th : Elizabeth II for Jamaica

I don't think that listing Elizabeth II separately as 14th for Jamaica is relevant. Officially, the monarchy of Jamaica has existed since 6 August 1962, date of Independence of Jamaica, but she has reigned on Jamaica for much longer, as Jamaica was part of United Kingdom !

I think we should list Jamaica in the same Elizabeth II entry as for "Australia Canada New Zealand United Kingdom[a]", with a note added beside Jamaica "since its independence on 6 August 1962". Elfast (talk) 07:18, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

The list is about monarchs of sovereign states, and Jamaica was not sovereign before 6 August 1962. Peter Ormond 💬 08:53, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Disagree. After Jamaica became a sovereign state on August 6, 1962? Elizabeth II began her reign as Jamaican monarch on that date. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

There's an inconsistency here somewhere though. If Liz is listed in 4th place covering four separate countries, with the next entry in the list in 5th, then it doesn't seem to make sense for her Jamaican tenure to get its own rank at 14th. I think we need to either have the upper entry occupy ranks 4 to 7, with the next one at 8, or the Jamaica entry should be "unranked"...  — Amakuru (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

It's alright the way it is. GoodDay (talk) 22:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it is alright the way it is. She was the head of state of Jamaica both before and after its independence. I really think it should be listed with the rest of the nations, like Canada, with a note saying Jamaica gained independence in 1962. If you're going to list Jamaica seperatly, you should list each nation seperatly as well from each date of independence. Ttutcha (talk) 08:47, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Canada, Australia and New Zealand gained independence before she became Queen, so in each of those realms, including UK, her reign as a "monarch of sovereign state" started on 6 February 1952, the day her father died. Jamaica was still a British colony then, and she reigned over that island in her capacity as British monarch. After Jamaica gained indepencence on 6 August 1962, that country's monarchy became separate from Britain, and she has since reigned as Queen of Jamaica, i.e. "monarch of a sovereign state". Peter Ormond 💬 08:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Ormond: Elizabeth's reign over Jamaica began 6 February 1952 in her capacity as the British monarch, it did not begin on Jamaican independence, she was already reigning, the table in no way implies that it is limiting the monarch's reign to the period in which they reigned over an independent country. El Dubs (talk) 01:29, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

The table is under the heading "Monarchs of sovereign states with verifiable reigns by exact date". Sovereign states are independent countries. Jamaica gained independence as a sovereign state on 6 August 1962. Peter Ormond 💬 02:21, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Ormond: It does, but I think you are conflating independence and start of reign as the same thing. What is the basis for this? Elizabeth's reign predates Jamaica's independence, this should be reflected in the table for accuracy as the table implies Elizabeth's reign in Jamaica started in 1962, in reality, she reigned over Jamaica before this in her capacity as British Monarch. The table does not require pre-independence periods to be excluded, as the sentence above clarifies that it only requires it be sovereign for "most" of their reign. Even the use of the phrase "most of their reign" hints that a reign can begin prior to independence. El Dubs (talk) 03:38, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Gooday Bro?! Jackal Himorse (talk) 02:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Platinum Jubilee of Elizabeth II (= 70th anniversary) is going to be celebrated in Jamaica. They don't celebrate independant jubilees, because she's their Queen for as much time as for the British. I think it's wrong to consider she's reigned on Jamaica for only 59 years. Elfast (talk) 20:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

You don't have a consensus to change it the way you want. So PLEASE, don't change it again, without a consensus to do so. GoodDay (talk) 00:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

There's no consensus with an independant Jamaica entry. But nobody has defended the '14th' number. Because it's absurd, you can't be the 1st and 14th. If we keep an independant Jamaica entry (and I think it's wrong but yes there are people who argues for it), we still have to remove the "14th" number. I'm not the only one who has noted the absurdy of it, and nobody answers about this specific question. If you want to keep it and be coherent, you have to list the Queen as 3rd should also be the 4th, 5th and 6th (Johann II should then be listed as 7th) because Australia, UK, New Zealand and Canada are independants. I'm not the only one who notes the inconsistency, see above, and no answer about the number has been expressed (apart maybe from your "It's alright the way it is." which doesn't give any answer). Elfast (talk) 13:16, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm beginning to lose my patients with you & your attempts to FORCE what you want in the article. Please respect WP:BRD, or is it going to be necessary to report you to ANI? If anything, you should be opening up an RFC on the topic. You're certainly 'not' gonna get what you want, by slow edit-warring. GoodDay (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to add here that in the very first line of WP:BRD talks about how it is optional, and not mandated. As such, there's no expectation that anyone "respect" it, nor is it reasonable to report someone for not doing so. With that said, absolutely agree that this is a matter for RFC and consensus. El Dubs (talk) 12:38, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

You don't seem to read my edit. I haven't ever removed the entry for Jamaica, I'm just editing the number 14th for - (for unranked). Please report if you think it's necessary, but reading the history of the article, I'm not the only one who have done this edit and have been reverted by you, and other people notice the inconsistency in the discussion page. You don't think to consider the point (maybe you think I'm removing Jamaica) and I don't see any answer about this specific point (the number ! not the independant entry). (You seem very stubborn and you don't seem to consider the point. If you report other people will be able to see the inconstitency, so yes report it, I don't know how to do ask for mediation).

You're the one stubborn here as other people noticed the thing above, and others tried to edit it (just for 2022, I'm not going to look for older edits) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_longest-reigning_monarchs&diff=prev&oldid=1073271199

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_longest-reigning_monarchs&diff=1054499309&oldid=1051443010

And again, to change the number is a compromise between considering Jamaica as a separate entry, and considering Elizabeth as one person (and I'm not sure you've seen that my edit is just about the number, please read it again).

Elfast (talk) 10:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree Jamaica should not be a separate listing. The paragraph before the table clarifies it's a list of monarchs for states that are internationally recognised as sovereign for "most" or all of their reign. Note how it clearly indicates that sovereignty and the beginning of a reign are different things. It is not implied that a reign should be shown to start at the beginning of independence or sovereignty.

Jamaica has been sovereign/independent for most of her reign. Her reign started 6 February 1952 where she became Monarch of many locations, Jamaica included. The list in no way implies that a reign starts from the beginning of sovereignty and detailing it as such in this list is inaccurate. El Dubs (talk) 13:47, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree too on this Jamaica should be separate on listing Jackal Himorse (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

The list is fine as it is with Jamaica ranked separately at 14th. As others here have correctly pointed out, the Crown of Jamaica was established in 1962. Prior to 1962, Elizabeth II was not Queen of Jamaica: She was monarch in Jamaica as Queen of the United Kingdom. The constitutional distinction is essential. Aridd (talk) 16:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

What about taking out years of reign under regency

The reason why is were you really the leader when you are a kid or in your teens? No they often had a regency while you grew up. So should there be a list to reflect this? 2601:2C4:C900:61C0:31E3:5278:880D:A03 (talk) 03:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

that be too trivial 103.137.24.152 (talk) 08:30, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

No, by historical convention the years of reign under the regency count even if they are not of effective government. Additionally, this list includes some modern rulers who do not actually rule their kingdom. The list concerns only the objective data of the years of reign, not the branches on who actually governs and who by name. 93.149.133.188 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 10:48, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@93.149.133.188: Please give more details and refs as regards the historical convention you refer to?Leutha (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Can someone help me with Charles III's dates?

Looking at Charles III of Spain's dates, if you start to count his years beginning as Duke of Parma and Piacenza, to Naples, and then Spain, it's 57 years. Both Parma and Piacenza and the Kingdom of Naples seem to be independent realms too according to their Wiki pages so it seems legit.

The problem is that I can't easily find the exact dates for when he was Duke of Parma and Piacenza. The Spanish wiki article has different dates to the English page for Charles III, with hard to access sources on the English page that might verify that claim. So I'm asking people if you guys can volunteer and help me look through any and all resources/references to find these exact dates. I would gladly appreciate that help. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 03:36, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

It was likely 20 January As when his Predecessor Antony died Jackal Himorse (talk) 04:46, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

NVM 26 February Gonna add him now Jackal Himorse (talk) 04:48, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Jackal Himorse, how are you so certain about his date? I'd personally prefer finding a book source first, hence my asking on here. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 06:11, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Even with sources for the dates, these reigns are for different states entirely (compared to some like Ferdinand III with Sicily then Two Sicilies). Charles had to surrender his Italian titles after becoming King of Spain, so I don't think he should be included on this list. Emk9 (talk) 06:39, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

i geuss emk is right 103.137.24.147 (talk) 07:08, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

i found on spainish wikipedia nonthenless i found a updated version of who would be 26 and more Jackal Himorse (talk) 07:27, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Can I see your updated list if it's convenient for you Jackal Himorse? Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 21:12, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Sure I got some of the start dates from other sources such as Britannica or Worldstatesman.org

Hassanal Bolkiah's state was a British Protectorate until 1984

26 Elizabeth II of Barbados 55 Years,0 Days

27 Moulay Ismail Ibn Shariff 54 Years,342 Days

28 Han Wudi 54 Years,20 days

29 Thutmose III 53 Years,330 Days

30 Frederick III Of Germany 53 years,188 Days

32 Fulk III Of Anjou 52 years,336 days

33 Frederick II 52 Years,210 Days

34 William II the Conqueror 52 Years,68 Days

35 Tahmasp I 51 Years,357 Days

36 Haakon VII 51 Years,307 Days

37 Said bin Sultan 51 Years,197 Days

38 Yeongjo Of Joseon 51 Years,188 Days

39 Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor 51 Years,167 Days

40 Franz Joseph II 51 Years,111 Days

41 Peter IV Of Aragon 50 Years,346 Days

42 Sigismund Of Hungary 50 Years,253 Days

43 Pōmare IV 50 Years,249 Days

44 Mwambutsa IV Of Burundi 50 Years & 204 Days

45 Edward III 50 Years & 147 Days

46 Joanna Of Castile 50 Years & 137 Days

47 Ivan The Terrible 50 Years & 116 Days

48 Sao Kin Maung 50 Years & 100 Days

49 Lone Horn 50 Years & 97 Days (Tho one could argue he be in the second table)

50 Margrethe II 50 Years & Currently Reigning (RN 129 Days)

Following that would be Clotaire I with a reign of 50 Years and 30 days if somebody on the list does not fully meet the criteria Bro?! Yourlocallordandsavior Jackal Himorse (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

My list Jackal Himorse:

1 Louis XIV Kingdom of France 2 Bhumibol Adulyadej (Rama IX) Thailand 3 Johann II Liechtenstein 4 Elizabeth II Australia Canada New Zealand United Kingdom 5 Kʼinich Janaabʼ Pakal I Palenque 6 Franz Joseph I Austria (1848–1867) Austria-Hungary (1867–1916) 7 Ferdinand III Kingdom of Sicily 8 Victoria United Kingdom 9 James I Kingdom of Aragon 10 Hirohito (Emperor Shōwa) Empire of Japan (1926–1947) Japan (1947–1989) 11 Kangxi Emperor China (Qing dynasty) 12 Qianlong Emperor China (Qing dynasty) 13 Christian IV Denmark-Norway 14 Al-Mustansir Billah Fatimid Caliphate 15 Elizabeth II Jamaica 16 George III Great Britain (1760–1801) Ireland (1760–1801) United Kingdom (1801–1820) Electorate of Hanover (1760–1814) Kingdom of Hanover (1814–1820) 17 Honoré III Principality of Monaco 18 Louis XV Kingdom of France 19 Pedro II Empire of Brazil 20 Nicholas I Principality of Montenegro (1860–1910) Kingdom of Montenegro (1910–1918) 21 Wilhelmina Netherlands 22 James VI Kingdom of Scotland 23 Conrad I Kingdom of Burgundy 24 Alfonso VIII Kingdom of Castile 25 Henry III Kingdom of England 26 Rainier III Principality of Monaco 27 Elizabeth II Barbados 28 Moulay Ismail Ibn Shariff Alaouite dynasty (Morocco) 29 Emperor Wu of Han Han dynasty 30 Thutmose III Eighteenth dynasty (Egypt) 31 Friedrich III Holy Roman Empire 29 Cosimo III de' Medici Grand Duchy of Tuscany 30 Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor Kingdom of Sicily 33 Friedrich Günther Principality of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt 34 Tahmasp I Safavid Dynasty (Persia) 35 Haakon VII Norway 36 Yeongjo Joseon Dynasty (Korea) 37 Franz Joseph II of Liechtenstein Liechtenstein 38 Leopold IV Duchy of Anhalt-Dessau 39 Peter IV Kingdom of Aragon 40 Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor Kingdom of Hungary 41 Edward III Kingdom of England 42 Joanna of Castile Kingdom of Castile 43 Ivan IV Tsardom of Russia 44 Margrethe II Denmark 45 William I Kingdom of Scotland 46 Basil II Byzantine Empire 47 Akbar Mughal Empire 48 Aurangzeb Mughal Empire 49 Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor Kingdom of Italy 50 Elizabeth II The Bahamas 51 Carl XVI Gustaf Sweden 52 Jogaila Kingdom of Poland 53 Elizabeth II Grenada 54 Chlothar I Soissons/Francia 54 Constantine VII Byzantine Empire 55 Elizabeth II Papua New Guinea 56 Frederick II Kingdom of Prussia 57 Suleiman the Magnificent Ottoman Empire Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 06:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Yourlocallordandsavior The thing is Akbar had his state as a part of British India from 1600 and Aurangzeb for his entire reign

Other then that i realized that Lone Horn's state wasn't sovereign so i replaced him with Abdullah I Al-Sabah of Kuwait his article now gives a reign of 52 Years,113 Days and wasn't Tuscany a part of the Holy Roman Empire? While Leopold IV's state being a part of the German Confederation until 1866.

Other then that 52 and below are

52 Basil II 49 Years,341 Days

53 Charles Emmanuel I of Savoy 49 Years,332 Days

54 Qaboos Bin Said 49 Years and 160 or 142 Days (His state was a British Protectorate for the first 18 days of his reign)

55 Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor 49 Years,50 Days (Only a approximate date tho)

56 Carlos I of Netherlands and Burgundy 49 Years,30 Days

57 William the Lion of Scotland 48 Years,360 Days

58 Elizabeth II of the Bahamas 48 Years,318 Days

59 Charles XVI Gustaf of Sweden 48 Years,251 Days

60 Liao Shengzong AKA Yelu Longxu 48 Years,153 Days

61 João I of Portugal 48 Years,135 Days

62 Elizabeth II of Papua New Guinea 48 Years,106 Days

63 Władysław II Jagiełło 48 Years,88 Days

64 Ming Shenzong (Wanli Emperor) AKA Zhu Yijun 48 Years,43 Days

65 Leopold I HRE 48 Years,38 Days

I am working on a similar list on Indonesian Wikipedia https://id.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daftar_penguasa_monarki_saat_ini_yang_menjabat_terlama Jackal Himorse (talk) 10:23, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Jackal Himorse For that, I just can't see a large Asian empire such as the Mughal Empire ever a British protectorate. Sure, the British may have had a few factory ports in India, but aside from that, the British only became a major power in India following Plassey and the Anglo-Maratha Wars of the late 18th century. Also I'm not a huge fan of claiming states inside the HRE after 1648 to be dependencies. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 19:57, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Apparently according to this Wikipedia Article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidencies_and_provinces_of_British_India British India apparently started as being in 1612 or 1757 so Akbar is sovereign but not sure on Aurangzeb

Cosimo still seemed to have been a HRE ruler of otherwise we would need to put some other Post-1648 HRE Monarchs on the top list too! Jackal Himorse (talk) 02:37, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I think it's kind of dumb (forgive my saying) to think that the Mughal Empire was a British dependency pre-1750, when it could've hardly pushed the Mughals before the Marathas screwed them over. The Mughal wiki page says that they became a British dependency after 1771/1784. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 05:36, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggest changing "João" to "John", for english readers. GoodDay (talk) 09:27, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

the rest are on my talk page tho thanks for the suggestion regardless Jackal Himorse (talk) 10:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Genghis Khan

Would he count? Khamag Mongol leader 1171-1206 35 Years Mongol Empire 1206-25 August 1227 21 Years Total 56 Years yes i know he did change his state but he still reigned in Mongolia so should he be in here? Jackal Himorse (talk) 11:19, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Elizabeth II

Should her taking position No 2 on the list be a MP DYK fact/appear on her article? 137.221.134.222 (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Discuss it on her article not here fellow Wikipedia user Jackal Himorse (talk) 15:20, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Muhammad Jiwa Zainal Adilin II of Kedah Of Start Date

His father,Ahmad’s article says that he died on 15 Febuarary 1710 meanwhile MJZA II of Kedah says in his page that he died on 23 September 1778 Should he be added to the Top list now? 103.137.24.18 (talk) 03:51, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Kedah isn't & wasn't a sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

GoodDay How wasn’t it a fully sovereign state wah back in 1778? I am pretty sure it didn’t become a British protectorate until at least 1910 Jackal Himorse (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Thailand (then Siam), had 'unwanted' influence. GoodDay (talk) 16:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh yeah forgot about that Jackal Himorse (talk) 06:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Roman emperors?

Am I missing something really obvious? Why no Roman emperors? E.g. Constantine VIII reigned 66 years and Basil II reigned 65 years, for a start. Middle More Rider (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

the were removed due to junior emperor being only a title Jackal Himorse (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

However, it includes kings who came to the throne as infants who were under the regency for many years, and therefore had "title only". Why is it different? Sira Aspera (talk) 16:02, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

just because they had a regency does not mean they arent monarchs Jackal Himorse (talk) 16:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, so why does the regency count and a child emperor not? Technically, he was sovereign, albeit without factual power. Just like a king under a regency — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sira Aspera (talk • contribs) 18:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

An emperor is an emperor, joint does not always mean one is a junior, and if a junior they may have ruled a province, not just sitting around doing nothing, also i'm sure some teenage emperors told the regents what they wanted done. Middle More Rider (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The reasoning for excluding them is that this list is a subsidiary list or extrapolation of verified information elsewhere on Wikipedia. The list of Roman Emperors gives their years as the start of their sole reigns, so they’re the dates we should use here. If you think they should have longer reigns listed, that page is where the discussion should take place. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 06:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't know about all that, someone told me about Constantine VIII, so I came over to this really obviously titled article, that I assume maybe millions of people worldwide have done over time, to read about Roman emperors' long reigns.....and there were none.

Middle More Rider (talk) 11:41, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually technically if you count his time as Roman Consoul Augustus reigned for 56 Years and Theodosius II for 48 years and Basil II for 49 years meanwhile George I of Greece was technically "Roman" Emperor for nearly 50 years as King of The Greeks Jackal Himorse (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Since the word "monarch" means a single ruler, junior emperors who share power can't be monarchs. Regents are irrelevant because they don't rule in their own right but on behalf of someone else. Richard75 (talk) 23:24, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment on Elizabeth duality

See #14th : Elizabeth II for Jamaica section above. I've noticed the inconsistency with having Elizabeth as 2nd and 14th longest-reigning monarch(s?), and other wikipedians have. But at least one wikipedian (two ? I'm not sure what Peter O. thinks about this specific number question) disagree, the discussion can't go further. There's also the more general issue of having two separate Elizabeth entry (one for Jamaica and one for the other countries), me and others are also against it, but it seems to me that it's less important as it's a presentation issue, not an inconstistency issue. Elfast (talk) 12:13, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

My thoughts, it's clear that monarchs do not get separate listings for each state they are a monarch of. This list isn't a list of states that have had the longest reigning monarchs, it is a list of monarchs that have had the longest reigns of states. I think it's important to keep the intent of the list in mind when determining how the table should be set out.

It seems one reason the distinction here has been made is because Jamaica attained independence after Elizabeth's reign started, and therefore it's listed as a shorter reign. However, I'm not so sure the case has been made that reign necessarily starts or changes at independence. When Jamaica became independent, they chose to retain the Monarch, who was attributed a new title. So the question is, is that the start of Elizabeth's reign? I don't think so. She was already sovereign of Jamaica before it was a sovereign independent country.

The second justification appears to be the criteria of the list. It is restricted to states that are internationally recognised as sovereign, which Jamaica attained on its independence. That is completely correct, however the list only states this should be a criteria to be on the list, it does not mean that is when the reign is considered to have started.

The sentence directly above the table: "states that were internationally recognized as sovereign for most or all of their reign." (emphasis mine). "Most" of the reign implies that the list can include reigns where a state was not sovereign for less than half of the reign. And therefore necessarily means reigns can be longer than sovereignty.

Jamaica has been sovereign for most of Elizabeth's reign. Meaning Elizabeth's reign started before Jamaica's independence. The table however, lists her reign as starting on Jamaica's independence. There's no interpretation where this can be correct.

I cannot think of any reason to suggest that Elizabeth was not reigning over Jamaica prior to Jamaican independence. The table needs to accurately reflect this. This is a table of how long her reign is. Not of when her title became "Queen of Jamaica".

My comment is that Elizabeth's rows should be merged, while I think the date of Jamaica's independence is irrelevant to the table, I would see no harm in adding a side note that informs of it. El Dubs (talk) 13:18, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

• (Summoned by bot) This looks more like a discussion than an actual RFC. I suggest you remove the RFC template until WP:RFCBEFORE has been met. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree It is like doing a ranking of USA Presidents

However placing Grover Cleveland at 33 and also 16 It makes no sense to meh Jackal Himorse (talk) 14:17, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish : I don't agree. The issue has been raised for months. The discussion isn't going further (Goodday s just saying "It's alright the way it is.", look above). Elfast (talk) 14:28, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

I've already made my stance clear. Jamaica was under British control until 1962. She was Queen of the UK over Jamaica, until that point. After 1962, her reign as Queen of Jamaica began. Also when she passes, none of her successors will be included in this article, for likely over at least a century. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect, her title prior to 1962 was "Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories", Queen "of" her other territories (i.e. Jamaica), not "over" her other territories. El Dubs (talk) 00:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

She didn't become Queen of Jamaica until 1962. Before that, she reigned over Jamaica as the British monarch. GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Her title didn't become Queen of Jamaica until Jamaica was an independent country in 1962. However before that she was still Queen of her Realms and Territories, one of which was Jamaica. El Dubs (talk) 00:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

She became Queen of Jamaica in 1962. We're never going to agree on that matter, so it's a waste of time going in circles. Try & convince someone else of your views. GoodDay (talk) 00:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree she became "Queen of Jamaica" in 1962. Can we agree she was Queen of Her Realms and Territories, which includes Jamaica? El Dubs (talk) 00:54, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

She currently ranks 14th in the article as Queen of Jamaica, which is correct. GoodDay (talk) 00:57, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

By this logic, George III shouldn't have the UK, Great Britain, or Ireland listed, because he was King of Ireland for only 40 years, Great Britain for 40 years, and the "United Kingdom" for 19 years. Title changes do not reset the start of a reign. So instead, the table correctly references that George III reigned for 59 years, then it lists the states he reigned over during this period. Elizabeth should correctly reflect that she has reigned for 70 years, then reflect the states she has reigned over during this period, consistent with the other rules that have reigned over multiple states. El Dubs (talk) 01:21, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

We're is disagreement on this topic. Elizabeth did not reign as Queen of Jamaica, for 70 years. GoodDay (talk) 01:30, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

We're in agreement. Elizabeth did not reign under that title for 70 years. Luckily, this is not a list of "monarchs who spent the longest time with the name of a state in their title". El Dubs (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

As Queen of Jamaica, she currently ranks 14th in this article. At this point you're bludgeoning the discussion. You already know, I'm not in agreement with you, so take your argument up with somebody else. GoodDay (talk) 01:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Not bludgeoning, just following different ways of thinking about the matter to someone who was discussing it with me. I think these comments have added to the conversation with new points of view. Happy to leave it here. Have a "Good Day". El Dubs (talk) 02:24, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a Request for comment, not discussion. I've made my comment at 22:53 of 8 June 2022. My comment stands. GoodDay (talk) 03:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

User:Supertrinko, per your logic then, she was Queen of Barbados for 69 years? Then she will again get a double listing. Peter Ormond 💬 06:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@Peter Ormond:, I agree Barbados should be listed, as it is a state that she reigned over for 69 years and was recognised as a sovereign state for "most" of her reign. However my argument is that each ruler should have one listing, because a ruler has one reign. Elizabeth for example does not currently have 5+ concurrent reigns, she is simply reigning, and has 5+ states under her reign. The length of her reign is from the date the previous Monarch died, until her eventual death or abdication. Elizabeth should be listed once, with the full period of her reign, and within the state column, it should list the states that have been or are under her reign, with the years, just as with George III. If there are too many, this article used to handle this by just detailing "The Commonwealth". El Dubs (talk) 10:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Poorly formatted and ridiculous

If this is an RfC it takes no notice of the conventional format. How on earth is a closer supposed to work out consensus from an unorganised discussion like this?

There shouldn't need to be any discussion at all. This is a list of longest reigning monarchs, not longest reigns. Each monarch gets one entry for their longest reign because otherwise we'd have a mass of partial reigns where various monarchs gained and lost various states within their wider imperial remit, or the name changed halfway through or whatever.

Each monarch gets one shot at the longest reign, we rank them in order, and that's that. --Pete (talk) 07:20, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@Skyring: I don't know RfC works, I thought I followed the procedure. But I agree, there shouldn't be discussion over this, it's a real simple issue, and there's no real discussion (you can look above, the discussion doesn't go anywhere, as me and others notice the inconsistency and one wikipedian is just answering "No" ; it's as if we were arguing against a spelling mistake). So, how does it work now ? Can we have a vote ? Elfast (talk) 14:13, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:RFC has the process and there are pointers toward formatting. Generally speaking the RfC is posed as a question that addresses a specific point without being too wide and vague. Aimed at Support or Oppose !votes. We don't actually vote per se so much as raise matters of logic or fact or Wikiprocedure and the closer gauges support as to consensus or otherwise.

Usually three parts:

1. A brief discussion of the problem, and a pointed question.
2. Responses - they should be about a sentence or so with a clear indication of the editor's support or otherwise of the matter being proposed.
3. Structured discussion so that those who want to discuss Wikipolicy or throw rocks at each other can do so. occasionally discussion leads to editors gaining new information and changing their position but usually it solidifies entrenched positions.

There are also uninvolved editors drawn in, most of whom spend a minute leaving a response and then disappear never to be heard from again. It helps to formulate a question so as to be short and pithy and appeal to the ignorant and simplistic because god knows they aren't going to spend an hour wading through the pages of discussion that have gone before the need for an RfC is felt.

What happens now? Gosh, I dunno. It's kind of late to put in a question and survey area, but I don't think anyone has actually cast a !vote so maybe you can treat what we've already got here as structured discussion and insert one. There's some guidelines on formatting here. --Pete (talk) 21:53, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

You can add your options question, right under the RFC tag. Then create two sub-sections - A survey & a discussion subsections. GoodDay (talk) 00:02, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok done. Elfast (talk) 11:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

RfC: Should we keep two different Elizabeth II entries ?

Look at the discussion above. I think there are two issues : should we keep two different entries, or should we add Jamaica in the first entry with a note about its independence in 1962 ? And, if we keep the independent entry for Jamaica, should we unrank her in this (-) or should she keep the 14th rank ? Let's vote for the first issue first. Elfast (talk) 11:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Question 1: Should Jamaica be listed with its own entry or grouped with the other Elizabeth II states?

Option A: Jamaica remains listed separately (there are three sub-options if this route is chosen, see below for previews)

Option B: Jamaica and other sovereign nations with Elizabeth as head of state be all listed together (preview here: [1])

Support option A

• Slight preference for this, as it's interesting to note that she was queen of sovereign state Jamaica since 1962, but as per below I would not want that entry ranked, and would prefer to remove Jamaica entirely rather than have it ranked while Canada/UK/NZ/Australia are lumped together in 3rd.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:32, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• I support Jamaica being listed separately as her reign as the sovereign monarch of Jamaica started on 6 August 1962. Peter Ormond 💬 15:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• She became monarch of Jamaica on 6 August 1962, not February 6, 1952. Thus the reason I'm in support of Option A. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• I agree with option A. The Crown of Jamaica did not exist prior to 1962. Aridd (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Support option B

• I don't think we need 2 independant entries, as it's a list of monarchs, not a list of reigns. In the merged entry, we can add "(independent from 1962)" beside Jamaica. Elfast (talk) 14:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC) edit: or it could be "as independent country from 1962" instead. Or we could simplify the countries list as United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms, just like in the Elizabeth II infobox. Whatever for me, as long as we merge the two entries. Elfast (talk) 19:18, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• I support option B. However if we are to add the note "(independent from 1962)" beside Jamaica as Elfast stated above this. Then we should add a similar note beside each individual nation listing that nations date of independence. Ttutcha (talk) 15:02, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• This seems like the only tenable option. Having separate entries for each country ruled over would make the list quite unhelpful to the reader. -- Visviva (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Elizabeth Windsor, in this case, shouldn't have multiple entries as "time reigned" best refers to the total time in which an individual was a monarch (specifically of an independent state in this section) as opposed to the length of time in which an individual held a specific office. Furthermore, merging the entries makes sense given the interlocked nature of the common monarchy of the Commonwealth realms, in line with how it's depicted in her infobox. — chrs || talk 01:07, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support this option. This should be a list of monarchs by longest reign, not a list of countries by longest reigning rulers. Consistent with most of the list except Jamaica. El Dubs (talk) 03:11, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
• This is a simple call to my eye - tables on Wikipedia shouldn't have multiple entries for a single entity --Jonie148 (talk) 13:30, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support option B: it is a list of monarchs, not reigns. One person, one entry. PamD 05:43, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

1956-58 £1 chocolate and violet
Country of production	UK
Location of production	Waterlow & Sons Ltd., London
Date of production	1956 (1956)
Nature of rarity	Unissued
No. in existence	7
Face value	one pound

• Support option B - Elizabeth II reigns because she succeeded her father as sovereign of the United Kingdom. All the colonies and realms and dependencies making up the Commonwealth are incidental. Changing the Jamaican constitution in 1962 doesn't mean she wasn't the Queen there before that date. Jamaican coins, notes, and stamps from the 1950s show the image of Queen Elizabeth II. This is easily checked.[2] --Pete (talk) 01:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
• Being a list of monarchs, Elizabeth II shall appear only once. --P1221 (talk) 09:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Question 2: If we choose option A above, how should we rank Jamaica and the other sovereign nations?

1. Status quo - Canada, NZ, Australia and UK are lumped together, Jamaica is separate (preview here: [3])
2. Canada, NZ, Australia and UK remain lumped together and Jamaica is listed in 14th place but unranked (preview here: [4])
3. Canada, NZ, Australia and UK are treated separately, as four separate entries with a joint rank of 3–6, while Jamaica remains in 14th (preview here: [5])

(please cast a !vote here, even if you prefer option B above, so that if option A is chosen we can still determine which version enjoys the most consensus)

Support option 1

• Keep the status quo. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• The status quo is fine. Aridd (talk) 16:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Support option 2

• Support - I think I prefer this option of the three, it treats Elizabeth II as an individual, dating her reign to the four countries where she's reigned the longest, while also retaining Jamaica as a side note for those interested in the fact that she's reigned there as a sovereign entity since 1962. Note that I firmly oppose option 1 (the status quo), as it's illogical to rank Jamaica separately in 14th while Canada, NZ, UK etc. are all lumped together in 3rd; nobody has really explained why that makes any sense at all.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Of course. Elfast (talk) 14:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• After all these discussions above, I agree with certain editors that this is a list of longest-reigning monarchs not reigns, so I think we can keep the Jamaica entry unranked. Peter Ormond 💬 15:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Seems the best to meh. Jackal Himorse 💬 — Preceding undated comment added 16:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• If option A wins, this form makes the most sense so a Monarch's numbered position is not put out based on one monarch ruling many countries. El Dubs (talk) 03:15, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
• If option A wins, I support this option. --P1221 (talk) 09:21, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Support option 3

• If option A from question 1 does win I support this (option 3) from question 2. Ttutcha (talk) 15:07, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

I think that all has already been said in two sections above. @GoodDay, Skyring, Peter Ormond, Supertrinko, Amakuru, Ttutcha, Jackal Himorse, Emk9, Yourlocallordandsavior, and 2204happy: Please vote Elfast (talk) 11:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC))

• What are we "supporting" or "opposing" here? @Elfast: As you say yourself, there are two separate questions here, whether to merge Jamaica in, and whether to rank it as 14th or unranked. Personally I would include Jamaica, but certainly not rank it 14th, given that Canada, Australia and NZ are not similarly ranked as separate countries. So that's neither "support" nor "oppose" really. I've also restored the unranking just now that was agreed to previously, only GoodDay had objected to that and it makes no sense to have Queen of Jamaica in position 14 when Queen of Canada is not in position 3,4,5,6 etc. Either rank the four countries separately, or don't rank Jamaica, tha'ts a black and white choice. It does readers a disservice to retain an inaccuracy like that, even while this RFC is proceeding.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:40, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
  • I've written

    Let's vote for the first issue first

    , I mean we should vote for

    should we keep two different entries, or should we add Jamaica in the first entry with a note about its independence in 1962 ?

    and if the result is Yes, we keep it that way, then we could vote on the issue about the rank (if we're merging them, the issue about the rank will directly be solved). Thanks for editing it, but I fear it'll be reverted again (maybe we should also vote for ranking now ?). Elfast (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

    If its OK with you, I'll restructure this RFC to make the choices clear in an hour or two. I've also self reverted earlier change I made and struck per above.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:42, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

    Ok. Elfast (talk) 12:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

    I think the separate Jamaican entry needs removing entirely - she has been head of state both before and after independence. If we vote to merge Jamaica into her current rank 3 then then the separate entry needs removing. Not just have it being unranked. Ttutcha (talk) 13:06, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

• @Elfast and Ttutcha: there is a mock-up here of how the RFC might look if we ask both questions, with previews of each option available. What do you think?  — Amakuru (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  I think that's a very good set up for the RFC. All options are there with examples of what each one would look like.  — Ttutcha (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

  OK, thanks, I have taken the liberty of restructuring it now, so that we don't get too deep into the other RFC format. @Jackal Himorse, Ttutcha, and Elfast: as you had already !voted on the RFC with the prior wording and I've now removed those !votes, please could you now recast your !votes with your preference under the new structure? (I won't take the liberty of assuming which way you might !vote)  — Amakuru (talk) 14:25, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay Jackal Himorse (talk) 16:43, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I've tinkered with the sub-sections, to remove the confusion of 'two' RFC headings. GoodDay (talk) 19:18, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

For those supporting Option B. Honestly, you really want to list 15 countries? At the very least, down size that option to "UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand" (the four oldest realms, which were/are independent the entire 70 years) & put a footnote for the other 11 realms. GoodDay (talk) 22:04, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I would want all 15 yes. I feel it would be not be factually accurate information if some were withheld or to just include a footnote. Plus I feel it's a bit insulting to not include them to be honest. That's part of the problem with her entry as it's listed at the moment in my opinion and is part of what prompted me to make my first comment. Ttutcha (talk) 23:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

But the first section is about sovereign states. Only 4 realms were sovereign the entire 70 years. GoodDay (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that listing every state would be pretty weird. The list is focused on the Monarch, not the states, so they shouldn't take focus from the Monarchs. With that said, limiting it to the four oldest is unfair on Jamaica. I'd suggest just grouping her to "Commonwealth of Nations". But happy to figure something out. El Dubs (talk) 01:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Listing Jamaica with the four oldest realms would be unfair to Jamaica itself 'cause that would assert the she is their own sovereign Queen for more than 70 years, when actually she is not. Peter Ormond 💬 02:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Jamaica recently had a royal visit to celebrate the platinum jubilee. It is not unfair to Jamaica itself because the nation recognises that they have had the same monarch for the last 70 years and hold no value to the 59 years incorrectly entered in slot 14 in this article. Ttutcha (talk) 02:25, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The Republic of Ireland also got a Platinum Jubilee royal visit. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Malaysia and Singapore, each got a Diamond Jubilee visit back in 2012. Peter Ormond 💬 02:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

My point being that during the visit they recognised she had been their queen and head of state for 70 years not 59. I wasn't saying other places couldn't have royal visits during a jubilee too. Ttutcha (talk) 02:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

How did they "recognise" that she had been the Queen of Jamaica and head of state "for 70 years"? Peter Ormond 💬 02:45, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I think the clear distinction is limiting her reign to the period she has been titled "Queen of Jamaica", vs the reigning Monarch of the island of Jamaica, which she has been since the beginning. El Dubs (talk) 02:55, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Take it into account the arrangement at List of current state leaders by assumption of office, where her reigns are ordered via realm age, then length of reigns. GoodDay (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Each of these nations was part of a sovereign state both before and after each of them gained independence from the UK. They had same head of state both before and after independence. The other article you have linked is also incorrect and a discussion should be had there also as she was in the same role before the dates listed. Ttutcha (talk) 00:13, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

They were not sovereign in their own right. They were colonies of an Empire. Sovereignty was gained on independence. Peter Ormond 💬 00:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

They were part of a sovereign state though and again the same person was head of the sate they were a part of before and after each of them gained independence. Had there been a different person appointed to that position after independence I could definitely see the point of not listing them. But as that's not the case I do really think they should be included. Ttutcha (talk) 00:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

In agreement with Peter Ormond. They don't qualify as being sovereign states during the entire 70 years & so we shouldn't be attempting to make it appear as though they did. GoodDay (talk) 03:37, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Someone suggested grouping as 'Commonwealth of Nations'. That's a non-starter as she's not the Monarch of the Commonwealth, which is made up mostly of republics & a few monarchies with their own monarch. GoodDay (talk) 03:34, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This is becoming a bit hard to follow, including where to paste one's response. Jamaica should definitely NOT be ranked. If we can get agreement on that, perhaps we can then decide on how this issue can best be dealt with--Mrodowicz (talk) 03:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Though not my first choice, there is another way. List only the United Kingdom & add a footnote for the 14 other Commonwealth realms, with each date for when she became monarch of that realm. The main problem is, she was monarch for 70 years of only 4 independent realms. The other 11 didn't become independent realms until well after February 6, 1952. Why 'only' the United Kingdom, you may ask? Because, (per WP:WEIGHT) it's the realm she resides in, is most associated with & doesn't require a governor general, as a result. GoodDay (talk) 04:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The RfC at the moment is showing that people are happy with option B. I don't think it's a good idea to be putting forward choices at this point that aren't part of that unless the process is restarted with extra options like that included. Ttutcha (talk) 04:21, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Regrettable, it does appear as though B has more editor support. If adopted? the end result will certainly be an 'inaccurate' presentation. Also, we'll have to give Elizabeth II a 'section' of her own, since we'll be mixing her reigns with non-sovereign-to-sovereign states (those aforementioned 11), with the sovereign states (those 4 aforementioned). Either that or we'll have to rename the section she's currently in. Again, if Option B is adopted, it will require changes to other parts of this article. GoodDay (talk) 04:51, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

If option B is chosen, I think you'd need consensus on the other changes you say would be "required". As there is clear disagreement on your interpretation of what is accurate. These changes have been suggested in the first place due to inaccuracies in the article. El Dubs (talk) 05:25, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

There are no inaccuracies. Four of her reigns are over 70 years, while her 11 other reigns are less then 70 years. She's not just 1 monarch, but 15. GoodDay (talk) 05:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

There is an inaccuracy and that's in the RfC. Peter Ormond 💬 05:52, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

We're in disagreement on that matter. She didn't become Queen of Jamaica on February 6, 1952. Jamaica was at that time, a part of her British reign. GoodDay (talk) 05:55, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

My comment at 05:52 referred to this nonsense. Peter Ormond 💬 05:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

If you consider each state a different reign, then why isn't Elizabeth II, Queen of UK, Canada, Aus, and NZ third equal, with Johann being 7th? I think because one monarch has one reign over many countries. But hey, that's just my opinion, that's why we have RfC. El Dubs (talk) 07:51, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Because she was/is the British monarch, Canadian monarch, Australian monarch & New Zealand monarch, for over "70 years". With the other 11 countries, she was British monarch, until they became independent & then she became the Jamaican monarch, Bahamas monarch etc etc. Note, when we list/rank James VI of Scotland's reign, we don't include his 'shorter' English & Irish reigns in his Scottish reign. If we adopt Option B, we'll have to include his tenure as King of England & Ireland. With option B, we'd have to include former realms as well, since it apparently disregards the different lengths of her reigns. GoodDay (talk) 16:19, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay: until now, you have staunchly defended the position of listing Elizabeth only in 2nd as the UK / Canada / Australia / NZ monarch (i.e. four separate positions), with the next entry in 3rd rather than in 6th... while also listing Jamaica as its own entry in 14th position. That is a clear anomaly and illogical formulation. Either it's about her as an individual, in which case she should have one position in the ranking, or its about each of her separate reigns of sovereign nations, in which case she should have five positions in the rankings. Giving her two, rather than one or five, is not logical. Please could you explain why you think that is valid so that we can understand your point of view? Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:36, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Seeing the direction this article is heading in, concerning this topic & my not wanting to bludgeon the discussion. This will be my last response. We should go by the length of reign, not the individual. The article is called the "List of longest-reigning monarchs". GoodDay (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This all seems ridiculous to me I'm afraid. There is simply no need to list the same person more than once. It's a list of monarchs, not realms. Richard75 (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I've seen a couple notes on how if this vote goes a certain way, that other changes will be required. I would anticipate those potential changes would need further discussion before they are accepted. This discussion is purely about the changes in options A and B. El Dubs (talk) 23:24, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Should this be closed?

Momentum on this RfC appears to have stopped. While there's no rush, WP:RFC encourages not waiting for the 30 day automatic closure by bot.

It states: "If the consensus is clear, any editor—even one involved in the discussion—may close the discussion."

I think that's pretty evident here. Option B has 3x the support of option A. If there's no dispute, I propose this RfC be closed and option B be enacted.

Any value in keeping this open? El Dubs (talk) 01:31, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

We've come to a halt, the result is clear. How about another day for anyone to object with reasons and then we tidy it away? --Pete (talk) 03:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. There's no rush, but there's also no reason to leave it for a lengthy period. El Dubs (talk) 06:37, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Leave it open, until the RFC tag expires. Otherwise, it will look like a big rush to close the door. GoodDay (talk) 09:17, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Leaving it open until the RFC tag expires is unnecessary IMHO. Consensus here is clear, and there's no value in keeping it open for another two weeks. Per WP:RFCEND, the 30-day cleanup of the RFC tag is intended as a housekeeping job, not in any way to imply that RFCs have to run for 30 days. It also says that "If the consensus is clear, any editor—even one involved in the discussion—may close the discussion"; I don't think anyone could dispute that consensus is clear at this point. I will close this myself in the next day or two, under the clause I just mentioned, if nobody else does.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

If consensus is so clear? What harm is there in waiting another two weeks? GoodDay (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Becuase to not do so is to delay what has already been decided. It would be bad form to keep this open when it's clear what needs to be done. Ttutcha (talk) 10:16, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Again, you'd be closing the door too soon. It ain't gonna hurt anyone to wait two weeks. For all we know, a number of editors could show up & support the status quo. So relax, as there's no need to rush things. GoodDay (talk) 22:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Please someone, make the edit on the page, it's more important than the poll. There s no need to wait 1 month to edit the page. If the vote result is going to change, things can still be reverted. Elfast (talk) 10:13, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I've just made one. If someone doesn't like this presentation, it will be ok for me if he's changing it, as long as the new edit respects the wish of the majority about having only one Elizabeth entry. Elfast (talk) 14:09, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Just relax. If it ends up the way you want it to (when the RFC tag expires & an outsider closes it & assuming the trend hasn't change by then), then you'll be satisfied anyway. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

It seems you're the one who needs to relax by letting the change asked (by many) be made, even if you don't agree with this change. Rfc doesn't have be necessarily closed by an outsider, and doesn't have to be closed after 1 months either, but if you really need some more time to accept it, let it be. Elfast (talk) 19:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Listing all the sovereign states

Actually, while we're on the topic of selecting Option B as the consensus decision from this RFC, can I just confirm that everyone is happy with the implication from that that all of Elizabeth's current sovereign realms will be listed equally in her entry? i.e. as per my mock-up at Talk:List of longest-reigning monarchs/Option B? Because if we're going to add Jamaica to that list then it is logical that we should add all the entries which would otherwise appear lower down in the list, of which I think there are 15. As far as I know, all of those nations were British colonies at the time of her accession to the throne, so effectively she has been queen of all of them since 1952.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:52, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

I certainly hope not, as it would make a very long (top to bottom) entry. If 'B' is chosen? It would be best to go with listing the UK, Canada, Australia & New Zealand (current version), with an added footnote for the other 11 realms. GoodDay (talk) 19:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Other Monarchs

Adding Soon

Gopinath Birabara Harichandan 1651-1711

Bhagirathi Birabara Harichandan 1778-1846

Hkun Ti 1860-1928

Jay-Chandra VI 1864-1933

Gonna add later Jackal Himorse (talk) 14:18, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Pre-emptive edits

Someone edited the first list just after midnight UK time to move Elizabeth II into sole second place today (12/06/2022), despite the fact that she won't achieve that milestone until tomorrow. I edited to reflect the actual state of affairs with the following note:

Amended to reflect QE2 is currently equal 2nd on first table. Previous edit jumped the gun by a full day by placing her in sole 2nd place and moving Bhumibol Adulyadej to 3rd - we don't edit in expectation of a future change.

7 minutes later user GoodDay reverted my edit with the note: For goodness sake. She's not seriously ill, is she?

My answer to that is no, but she is very old and who can predict the future? Why create an inaccuracy in the article today when it can easily be updated tomorrow? Stating that Bhumibol Adulyadej is the third longest verified reigning monarch of a sovereign state is just wrong and unencyclopaedic.

I appreciate this will likely all become redundant on Monday so I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing for a change, but I think it's worth noting here as pre-emptive edits are really not the way to go for the sake of having an accurate encyclopaedia. Cdfbrown (talk) 04:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Less than 20 hours left. Why are you making such a fuss? Peter Ormond 💬 04:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Well Bhumibol Adulyadej did reach 2nd place first and comes first alphabetically. I think it's just good practice to keep things in order. Cdfbrown wasn't making a fuss either, it's just good record keeping to show what is happening to an article in the talk page. Ttutcha (talk) 04:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a very minor point and will cease to be relevant in less than five hours, but that's still not an excuse for Wikipedia to jump the gun or to announce her move up into clear second place early. I've restored the joint-second usage and please leave as is until midnight UTC. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, this article's criteria seems headed towards a drastic (IMHO, confusing) change, within roughly three weeks anyway. So, I'm not gonna edit-war over a different item, that's going to end up as I had it, in a few hours. GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of 20 monarchs

It seems a bit much to remove 20 entries from the list "Monarchs of dependent or constituent states with verifiable reigns by exact date" without a consensus to do that.[6] What were the criteria for removal? Richard75 (talk) 23:33, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

It was the top 85 & should be restored to that, per WP:BRD, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

None of those deleted had active links or were sourcedAumnamahashiva (talk) 00:04, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

You need to get a consensus for the mass deletions & changes, that you wish to make. Further attempts on your part to force your changes on this page, may lead to a possible block. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Duly noted and warning received. So, thoughts on a plan for cleaning up the list and adding sources?Aumnamahashiva (talk) 00:27, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

We'll let others give their input. Meanwhile, please don't make anymore such sweeping changes. GoodDay (talk) 00:29, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Why are we keeping unsourced content? This is Wikipedia. That has no place here. --Pete (talk) 10:25, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

True, but that doesn't mean that sources can't be found. We should probably try and find one for each unsourced entry before summarily deleting entries that might be true. Otherwise the list may become misleading. Richard75 (talk) 13:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Question

Should we order the Third List (Monarhs with exact date unknown) Alphabetically Jackal Himorse (talk) 07:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

If approximate durations are known then we should still try and present the information by length of reign even where this is imprecise. Richard75 (talk) 13:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Also | Muhtarram Shah Kator | Chitral (India) | 1585 | 1655 |- | Johann Ulrich |- | Stadion (HRE) | 1530 | 1600 Removed for no reason both reigned for 70 years? Jackal Himorse (talk) 18:17, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Eberhard III

Apparently his father died in 1328 not 1308 so i am removing him — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackal Himorse (talk • contribs) 07:51, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Afonso I of Portugal

Afonso I of Portugal is currently listed in the "unknown dates" section as reigning from sometime in 1112 to 6 December 1185. I find his placement there problematic.

His father Henry, Count of Portugal was made Count of Portugal in 1096 with his wife Princess Theresa, Countess of Portugal as co-ruler. Henry died on 12 May 1112 exactly (very much a known date), when his son was a young child. Rather than a regency by Theresa, our articles seem to imply Theresa became countess suo jure. On 24 June 1128 Afonso dethroned his mother through war and became sole count. And to confuse things further on 25 July 1139 he became a sovereign monarch of the Kingdom of Portugal. So I put forward the question of what to do with him.

If we give Afonso the title from 12 May 1112 and recognise his sovereignty, then he suddenly jumps to second place between Louis XIV of France and Elizabeth II of Britain. If we give him 24 June 1128 as the start and sovereignty, than he jumps to the 21st place between James VI of Britain and Conrad I of Burgundy. If we give him 25 July 1139 and sovereignty, than he vanishes from any list (only 46 and 1/2 years). To me there seemingly is no reason to place him in the known non-sovereign known dates and unknown dates.212.79.110.148 (talk) 20:24, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

If he does come here he should belong on the second list Jackal Himorse (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The section is titled with "dependent or constituent states", which the Kingdom of Portugal certainly wasn't. The County of Portugal was under Galician vassalage, but the creation of the kingdom separated it and subsumed it into the new crown. I removed him for now.212.79.110.148 (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I've restored him. Best to a consensus, if you want to delete him. GoodDay (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree with GoodDay He doesn't belong on the first list as his State wasn't even sovereign until 1139 Jackal Himorse (talk) 06:50, 23 June 2022 (UTC)