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A suggestion to change Beethoven's nationality from "German" to "Austrian" is neither likely to achieve consensus, nor to be a profitable use of anyone's time. No reliable sources describing him as Austrian have appeared. Antandrus(talk)23:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Beethoven's family was from Austria and he even moved back to Vienna when he grew up, yet on Wikipedia, it calls him a German composer. He was not German, not even Prussian. He happened to live in Cologne for the beginning of his life, but he was and always will be an Austrian composer. Germany didn't even claim Beethoven to be German until the rise of Nazism. Calling Beethoven German is a common misconception nowadays. I was wondering if there was any reason it should be changed to "Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised...) was an Austrian composer and pianist." Thanks! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that most major reference sources, such as Grove Music, continue to refer to him as German. Do you have sources that use Austrian? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at his family tree and his father was Austrian, but his mother was Prussian (German). Perhaps it should not read Austrian composer as I originally thought but Ludwig van Beethoven (…) was an Austrio-German composer and pianist. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can't look at the primary sources and interpret how we should refer to him - see WP:NOR. Instead we need to follow the secondary and tertiary literature, which as mentioned seems to use German. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't primary sources usually take precedent over secondary sources? Also, this brings to question why these secondary sources exist. When was he first referred to as German? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 16:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is based on what the majority of reliable secondary sources say. It may be hard to swallow, but things like "rock-solid truth" don't have any meaning for WP's purposes. Aza24 (talk)20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not original research. It is a re-analysis of existing sources and solid facts. The "secondary" sources are more like quadrinary sources (possibly based on none other but our own wikipedia) I'm willing to compromise. We could call him an Austro-German composer. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re-analysis of primary sources is, by our definition, original research. Do you have any secondary sources that refer to him as an Austro-German composer? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I forget who once wrote something along the lines of "the great triumph of post-war Germany was to pursuade the world that Beethoven was German and Hitler Austrian". Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beethoven was at least half-Austrian. He would've wanted to be reffered to as Austrian, heavily associating himself with the hapsburghs and their nation. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hitler on the other hand, was a German Nationalist. It is not the birthplace, but the ethnicity and ideology that make up the nationality. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Die Österreicher haben das Kunststück fertiggebracht, aus Beethoven einen Österreicher und aus Hitler einen Deutschen zu machen.
The HRE didn't "own" its territories, except the few the emperor ruled directly, which didn't include Bonn. Please stop wasting people's time with your uninformed opinions. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Really. I wonder could you provide one single WP:RS source to support your somewhat surprising claim that "Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born"? I have just searched the article on Bonn for the word "Austria". How many instances do you think I found? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Upper Austria is the region in Modern-day Austria in between the Tyrolean alps and the fertile plain of Lower Austria. It is very hilly, but not as rocky as Tyrol. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, there is no mention of Austria at that article? You might wish to direct your efforts first to that article, to clearly establish that she was "Austrian". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even more evidence, making the V a lowercase was a germanisation. He couldn't have been german or his name wouldn't have had to be germanised. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Interesting article, but the "secret code" aspect is clearly click-bait nonsense. Nothing I'm reading is exceptionally different enough from standard dynamic markings to warrant inclusion in a general encyclopedic article. Aza24 (talk)04:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Every major historical figure in the depths of this encyclopedia has the country of their location, I do not see a reason as to why this should be any different. Nurusa101 (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the article it is stated in regards to Therese Malfatti that "She is now remembered as the recipient of the piano bagatelleFür Elise.". However, the article for the piece states that "It is not certain who "Elise" was", and discusses in length about the possible identities. Perhaps it should be changed from "the recipient" to "a possible recipient"? Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 19:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This talk page is for discussion about this Beethoven article specifically; these matters should be brought up at the respective articles in question Aza24 (talk)20:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I brought it up here because I think the change should be made here. The other article seems to be pretty confident on the matter, so I think this article should be changed to match that one. Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added "possible" to this article. In any case, my point was (which I did not explain properly) that these articles are at very different states; the Beethoven article is rather rigorously cited to leading academic scholarship, while the Für Elise article is a host of random references to Alfred Music, Youtube, the New Yorker, hundred year old sources, etc. Aza24 (talk)17:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand why this is only a class B article. The writing is good and there are a lot of sources. There are many articles about composers which are also class B and not nearly as good as this.
Is there something I'm missing? If not, I think we should vote for a reevaluation to have the article graded A, GA, or even featured. Cheers. Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well the nomination would require someone who significantly contributed to this article and who is available to respond in a timely fashion for the next couple months, neither of which describes me. Do you know anyone who could do this? Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:50, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]