Talk:Spain

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2024

Change 2 °C (36 °F) of warming to 2 °C (3.6 °F) and 4 °C (39 °F) to 4 °C (7.2 °F) under climate change section. one degree of change Celsius is 1.8 degrees of change F. 2604:2800:0:A998:2486:23D3:E37:51BF (talk) 03:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 04:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Changing the name of Spain to Andalusia

Spain is a colonial name of Andalusia of the Islamic Caliphate. Its not exist. Please change the name to Andalusia the not colonial name 188.64.206.0 (talk) 15:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia user. Kindly check accurate sources prior to making this kind of comments. While the Spanish constitution does not establish an official name for the state of Spain and some others are commonly used in it. While the origin of the word might be uncertain, the hypothesis of the Phoenician word "Land of rabbits" Spania is commonly accepted. Dual2402 (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello. We, following the guidelines of WP:COMMONNAME, go by what places are most commonly called, not what someone reasons out they should be called. Largoplazo (talk) 12:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Showing the name in the regional languages

As the spanish constitution states, these languages are only acknowledged as coofficial in their respective autonomous comunities, furthermore, neither asturian nor aragonese have the status of cooficial languages in Asturias or Aragon respectivly. I would also sugest that if it's decided to keep the name in the cooficial languages, it is also shown in valencian, or atleast changing the label from "catalan" to "catalan/valencian". 185.224.49.224 (talk) 22:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The name is translated into languages that are native to the place, not necessarily official. As for the change you suggest, treating Valencian and Catalan separately makes absolutely no sense (just as I and many other people have already told you many times in several other places). The choice of the name "Catalan/Valencia" over "Catalan" is in this case not up for discussion, for this name is automatically generated when you use the template for IPA: Catalan pronunciation: [IPA]. And the name this template automatically generates is "Catalan". So if you want this to be changed, the ones you should contact are (I guess) the administrators. That would change the wording for every page in which this template is inserted. Agpshi (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Your edit was made disrupting the consensus and deleting something that has been here for years.

I have accepted your point of view in the page languages of Spain (albeit you were the only one which didn't agree with me and you changed it MONTHS LATER) but now I did the same here and only 2 weeks later.

Also notice someone else deleted your edits and completely wiped out Valencian, which didn't even allow Catalan/Valencian to be together, and as you might know, that's an entire disrespect movement for the Valencian people but also for the entire Valencian Community culture, history and traditions.

The Spanish Constitution and the Valencian Statute of Autonomy officially call it Valencian. We both know this and neither of us have a problem with this. From a linguistical point of view, they are 2 names for the same language (both Catalan and Valencian are valid, as you know as well and as the sources refer) but someone after you made a further edit deleting all of that thus making it even unmatchable with the sources, as the sources mention Valencian.

I am not the user from above (he is using an IP, I don't use IPs... if I want to edit, I use my account) you did first an edit on 7th of July in this page deleting all of the stuff mentioned above without consensus. Okay, now it's time to reach that consensus if you want to make these changes. Until then, you have to leave the page as it was before, as the discussion we had in the page Languages of Spain as you surely remember. Then, even you with your own account changed it to Valencian/Catalan or Catalan/Valencian but a day later another user completely wiped out Valencian. And that's not acceptable. LucenseLugo (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't even have to care about what I've wrote above as that info from the infobox was added by a permanently banned/blocked user:

MylowattsIAm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The info regarding the official regional languages is already mentioned on the FIRST note of this page. If you still want to change Valencian somehow (remember it was here for years, check the edit history) please explain your point and reach a consensus with more people than just you and me. As I prefer to leave it as it was, since the official Valencian Statute of Autonomy calls it Valencian and in the languages box I've clearly stated (as it was before) that Catalan/Valencian are the name for the same language, just officially called Catalan in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands and Valencian in the Valencian Community. LucenseLugo (talk) 22:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, sure, you are not that user. I am just going to say a couple of things:

When you say that my edit "was made disrupting the consensus and deleting something that has been here for years", and when you ask me to "remember it was here for years, check the edit history", perhaps I should remind you that the first and only edit that treated them as separate languages was made on March 8th 2024. Before that, only the four co-official languages were shown (Occitan, Catalan, Basque and Galician) and that is the version that has been on the page for ages. You also said "linguists use" or "the Spanish consitution says", to which I can only answer that perhaps you should take a look at the constitution (which never mentions any language other than Spanish) and to the linguistic bibliography (which you are clearly unfamiliar with and which, for the most part, uses only the name "Catalan" and definitely always avoids writing in a way that makes them look like different languages).

Consensus is to be sought in order to properly reflect different scientific approaches to the same phenomenon. If you say the Earth is flat and I say it is round, Wikipedia will not try to reach a middle term between us: it will reflect my view and, perhaps, mention yours as a pseudoscientific doctrine with some social relevance. The case of Catalan/Valencian is not different. You just cannot list them separately just as you cannot list Spanish and Castillian, or Romanian and Moldovan, or Flemish and Dutch, separately. Agpshi (talk) 10:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

First of all, keep doing again these reverts trying to push your OWN POV (as you were the only one who did these changes in 7th July 2024 without any consensus) and you will be reported.

And second, I won't read all of that BS honestly. I have seen now you accuse me of being a sockpuppet of several accounts which I didn't even know. I understand you are clinically obsessed with me because I am strongly against your extremely biased agenda. Since you've made it personal, wait for consensus from other people. Ciao ciao. LucenseLugo (talk) 14:20, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

What I won't tolerate, though, is yourself spitting out on such an important page on Wikipedia and making silly edits and repeating the same info twice as well as evading the official name of the language spoken in a specifical region just because you're biased and you can't accept it, the sources are there to back it up. Try to be 1% neutral and read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.

@Agpishi:, that change you have just made (reverting all my edits just in a "instant rage" for that personal bias you have against me) was adding back a change made by a user who is PERMANENTLY BLOCKED: Revision as of 07:08, 21 May 2024

MylowattsIAm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

So if your desire is to keep what blocked trolls/sockpuppets is, redo again my edits. If that's not your desire, then EXPLAIN YOURSELF, explain why do you want to change that, why do you want to repeat something twice and wait for consensus. Adéu! LucenseLugo (talk) 15:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Pinging correct username, @Agpshi:. I agree that the current version is the stable one, and the changes that were reverted should not be reinstated without consensus to do so on this page. William Avery (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The other one was breaking the stable version and it was also instroduced by a now permanently blocked user.

@Agpshi: Please engage in this talk section and explain your point before doing further edits. As you can see, I'm not the only user who has noticed that your edit was breaking the stable version. I did not accuse you, though, because that was added by another user. But don't revert stable edits without consensus. LucenseLugo (talk) 23:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

On efn note i

Since efn i said that both "Spain" and "Kingdom of Spain" are both "equally valid to designate Spain in international treaties" (i.e. both are the legal names of the country although the latter is heavily more used), I think the first words of this article could be rephrased into

Spain, or more formally the Kingdom of Spain, …

since the current first few words implied that only the latter is the legal name.

Any opinions? Gibranalnn (talk) 01:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Spain is not a cultural superpower.

This Wikipedia article says that Spain is a cultural superpower. But the citations given in the article (citations 14 and 15) only claim that Spain was a global superpower in the Age of Discovery (15th thru 17th centuries) like Britain, Portugal and France, and a world heritage power. Being a global superpower (like the U.S. is now) and a world heritage power are not the same thing as being a cultural superpower. The people of the Iberian penisnsula and peoples in Europe all the way up to Britain were granted Roman citizenship by the Latins during the Roman Empire which started BCE. This Wikipedia article also says Spain has a cultural wealth, but it attributes it to Rome (its Latin language and culture), the Visigoth settlers (who spoke Latin), and the Muslims who conquored the Visigoths and started speaking Latin. Spain, having used Italy's Latin language and culture, does not qualify it or any other European country, except Italy, as being the cultural superpower it is.

I've just checked out the Culture section of Wikipedia's Italy article. Italy is a cultural superpower. The valid citation 333 on the Italy article lists The Washington Post, The Australian, the former Foreign Affairs Minister Giulio Terzi, and U.S. President Barack Obama attesting to the fact that Italy is a cultural superpower. Italy gave the world the Latin alphabet which was derived from the Etruscans and Greek alphabet which was parented by the Phonecian alphabet and ultimately Egyptian hieroglyphs. Italy also gave the world the Gregorian calendar (a revision of Caesar's Julian calendar), and a court system (a judge, selected jury and protracted trials) which improved upon the Greek's laymen system which, itself, was an improvement on the Middle East's system.

It's safe to say that Italy was the last of the cultural superpowers. Its capital, Rome, gave us Latin which derived not only into Italian, but many other European languages including English. Italy's Latin alphabet and calendar are used worldwide. The Greeks gave us Western Culture and the Greek alphabet. The Middle East gave us the Phonecian culture and alphabet. And, of course, the Egyptians gave us their culture and hieroglyphs. All cultural superpowers. Countries that use the Latin culture of Italy, whether it be the U.S., Spain or the UK, are not cultural superpowers. Superpowers during epochs, yes. Cultural superpowers, as Italy is, no. This article needs to be cleaned up. Its first section is unnecessarily misleading and fluffy. Claudio di Roma (talk) 11:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

As I already told you, these are not exclusive things. Being a cultural supwerpower is not a status owned by Italy or countries home to ancient civilisations. Countries have continued to produce culture up to this day. The US is unquestionably a cultural superpower, due to the impact that country has on modern science, cinema, pop music etc. That may not be the classical culture of Italy, Greece and Egypt, but it is still a very influential culture, just of a different type. If the problem is the need of proper sources to back up the claim for Spain I would stick with that, without going into other reasonings, cause you are making very extreme claims: Spain certainly has cultural wealth as it has a big body of Spanish art, Spanish literature etc.; English uses the Latin script, but it's not a Latin language. Having been influenced by Latin culture does not disqualify Spain, Portugal, the UK or whatever from being a cultural superpower on their own. The article does have questionable things that have been introduced over time by agenda-driven socks and we can deal with that, but that's another issue. Regarding the lack of a source directly calling Spain a cultural superpower I have added a "further citation needed" for Spain at the section where the "cultural superpower" references links to, but I am against removing the passage as i don't think it will be problematic for users to find such a source. Barjimoa (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Do we have a source for this statement? Moxy🍁 15:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, that's fair. I will watch out for the editor you mentioned from Spain who makes grandiose edits here. I agree, he's the one making the absurd claims. But, remember, cinema comes from Europe not North America. And Pop music (popular music) comes from many nations. I think the black people whose ancestors were brought to the American continent are among the most productive people on that continent. Specifically in the USA. They gave us Gospel, Blues, Jazz, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Rock and Roll, Disco, Hip Hop.

Whenever I think of the US, I'm reminded of black people. Probably from seeing "Gone with the Wind". Black people's music is always enjoyable. The buzz over here is Kamala will win. It would be a wonderful thing if a black lady landed the job as the first US female president. And, of couse, the Native Americans are making their way up to the US border. They're arriving in caravans and the whole world is watching. J.Lo is very Native American-looking. It would be nice to see a Native American woman (or man) in the White House soon. Claudio di Roma (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The cited sources don't say it's a superpower and, in the absence of reliable sources calling it such (and probably even if there are any) it's WP:PUFFERY that we don't need to echo. Further, I looked through the subsequent sections to see if there was any information to substantiate the claim. Nearly all the periods, styles, movements covered are from the past, some of them centuries ago, and the majority of the people named are dead. About the only thing current is the movie industry, so maybe it's a cinematic superpower. And tapas. Tapas everywhere. But art? Music? Literature? Poetry? Architecture? Television? Possibly in the Spanish-speaking world. But, as I said, going by the article, it's mostly in the past. So Spain was long a cultural powerhouse. Still, I'm approaching this from a WP:OR point of view. Sources are key. Largoplazo (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks like it's been here for some time (although its been contentious and reverted multiple times) .... Let's see if anyone can come up with a source. If not it should be removed as a weird Wikipedia construct. I see on the main page about cultural superpower there has also contentious edits that have been discussed on the talk page to no avail. Moxy🍁 21:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, Moxy, I take back what I said. After checking the history of this, I have found that Spain as a cultural superpower was indeed added (here and in the page Power (international relations)) by socks of User:JamesOredan. In talk:Power (international relations) he used his sock Venezia Friulano and another suspected sock TechnicianGB to push back against users who objected to its introduction. This time I had not realized it was him, sorry. Barjimoa (talk) 06:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Largoplazo "About the only thing current is the movie industry, so maybe it's a cinematic superpower. And tapas. Tapas everywhere. But art? Music? Literature? Poetry? Architecture? Television?"

Spain currently is the second-most visited country in the world, with 600 Millions of people speaking its language, including a huge number of foreign students.

Search better sources or delete the statement, but have some respect for the country.

@Claudio di Roma

"Spain, having used Italy's Latin language and culture, does not qualify it or any other European country, except Italy, as being the cultural superpower it is."

Honestly, this discredits you as someone educated in history. I don't know why Spain attracts so much attention, contempt and criticism from other nationalities. In recent months it seems to be the norm in this article. OceanStones (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Spain attracks tourists because it's a major sellout. It's extremely inexpensive and sells land to other EU members and the British. Especially the British. The British have holiday homes and permanent homes in Spain because they purchased property there. Now, the Spaniards are complaining there are too many foreigners in their country. Well, the British and the other EU members got what they paid for; their land and homes in Spain. They bought it, they own it. Claudio di Roma (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The price factor does not make sense, Spain has relatively similar prices to Italy and Greece. UK citizens with property (House) in Spain does not exceed 13,000, however, each year Spain receives ~14 Million Britons, and 300,000 live in Spain regularly, so your argument that there is a lot of tourism in Spain because "the country sells its land" seems quite weak.

As @Barjimoa told you, it is not necessary for you to despise Spain to defend your points.

I'm not going to build more on this non-constructive Off-Topic.

My opinion is that this statement (cultural superpower) should be deleted if It angry you, and if someone later finds an acceptable source, recover it. OceanStones (talk) 15:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As I said, Spain has lots of cultural wealth, we don't need a source to establish the obvious, many people worldwide study Spanish arts and visit Spain (and no, it's not due to British buying houses)...that qualifies in my book for having cultural influence and the arguments against it provided by Claudio are not on point here, as they are based on the idea that if Greece and Italy influenced others then the others cannot be cultural powerhouses on their own, if Europe influenced the US then the US cannot be a cultural powerhouse...that kind of reasoning obviously is a fallacy. The only issue I aknowledge is that the specific statement "Spain is cultural superpower" was introduced by blocked socks without a source. But this is a matter of form, not of content. We can make a similar point without using a specialistic concept. Denying the existence of Spanish cultural influence and wealth is just plainly wrong. Barjimoa (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

A country isn't a cultural superpower because people speak the language that originated there or because people visit it. The overwhelming majority of native Spanish speakers aren't Spanish, and most people who learn it have Latin America, not Spain, in mind. Millions visit Iceland, does that make it a cultural superpower? Regarding your comment about my knowledge of history, that brings up exactly one of my points: the sentence is in the present tense. Spain had a huge cultural impact. I'm talking about today. Largoplazo (talk) 16:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

We can remove that sentence if it's/as long as it is sourceless, apparently no one has a problem with that. Keeping the context of Spain having a significant culture is what matters, no need to fight over a specific definition. I personally was just pushing back against the bias of that user, who, to my shock, has been blocked for being himself the guy who introduced that very sentence in the first place. He was trolling and flaming all of us. Barjimoa (talk) 16:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Largoplazo It seems like you're confusing being a political/economic Superpower with being a cultural Superpower. Language and tourism are obviously important factors to be a cultural Superpower.

Language is probably one of the most obvious cultural projections that exist for a country. It is not credible to say that people study Spanish without thinking about Spain. Also comparing Iceland's tourism (about 3 million a year) with Spain (85 million a year) seems quite absurd to me. Spain is the second-most visited country in the World precisely because of its cultural influence.

Its not even a serious debate. It is quite obvious that Spain is one of the major cultural powers. The only issue is that the current sources do not affirm that and it was added by a Sockpuppet that has flamed here against Spain. OceanStones (talk) 16:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

If you think I'm confusing the two then you can't possibly have really read my original message, where I touched on nearly all the subtopics in the Culture section and said nothing about politics or the economy, at all Largoplazo (talk) 17:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh my God! People sometimes think of Spain! They're aware of it!

Re It's not even a serious debate. It is quite obvious ...: The fact that multiple people disagree with you and that I have clearly listed substantive counterpoints indicates ipso facto that neither of those sentences is true. Largoplazo (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

PD: And all this ignoring the fact that Spain has also an important weight in sports, gastronomy and music (Ex. Flamenco, which is more popular outside of Spain than inside), lmao OceanStones (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Why are you now being the one causing a flame? The way you speak strongly reminds me of the historic blocked user of which Claudio has been established to be a sock...and you have been created while there is an ongoing investigation on his socks AND a debate at this talk page caused by him...I strongly suspect you have been specifically created to contribute to this whole flame. Like, are you are playing all sides in this? That's some next level. User:Bbb23, can you please check him too? What's going on here? I feel like I, user:Largoplazo and user:Moxy are being trolled hard into this. I have no words. Barjimoa (talk) 16:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly who have I attacked? I don't see any of my words as an attack.

The most I have said was "it discredits you as educated in history" and it was directed at the now blocked @Claudio di Roma.

Feel free to check whatever you want. OceanStones (talk) 17:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I am convinced that's you. The way you speak. I don't even know what to say. This whole exchange was just pure flame for no reason. Barjimoa (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Imagine how desperate for attention a person would be to spend so much time creating dozens of sockpuppets and engaging in such lame antics. Truly pathetic. Carlstak (talk) 00:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Carlstak, it's even worse, he has had hundreds. Barjimoa (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Sad. No one with a life outside WP would bother. Carlstak (talk) 11:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Wait, User:Claudio di Roma has been blocked for being himself one of the many socks of the guy who introduced the claim, that's quite a turn of events. Barjimoa (talk) 16:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's remove it from the lead altogether and in the body remove and a cultural superpower.(bad sources) and replace it with Spain is a Western country and one of the major Latin countries of Europe and has been noted for its international cultural influence.Moxy🍁 17:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It's fine to me, it's the same thing really, we don't have to fight over specific words and concepts. Especially considered we are very likely being trolled. Barjimoa (talk) 17:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The claim seems to have been introduced with this edit by User:Kfager1, who was later blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Jobas, but who a cursory review of their contributions doesn't reveal to have had an special interest in aggrandizing Spain. Claudio di Roma has made only this one edit to this article, and it was to remove "cultural" in front of "superpower" and the change the phrase, properly, from present tense to past tense. So Claudio di Roma didn't introduce the claim and didn't do anything here to magnify Spain. Largoplazo (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Largoplazo , the claim was introduced by VeneziaFriulano and TechnicianGB at the Power (international relations) page after a talk. It turns out that Claudio di Roma is a sock of James Oredan, hence of Venezia. He was trolling us. He was playing both sides. Barjimoa (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

References