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Hi, would you be interested in joining a wikiproject on oral tradition? Kowal2701 (talk) 21:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kowal2701! I have seen the discussions that you initiated. I didn't react yet because I fear it is the opposite of what I advocate for.
At this Foundation blog post there is an overview of the work that User:Aprabhala started many years ago. You can find a lot more material and past activities on my meta user page. In a nutshell, I disagree with the way we collect information about oral traditions: We wait for a researcher to visit the community and publish a paper. Then we cite this paper because we need references, while everything in the scientists' work actually originates from the knowledge bearers in the community, and time and again major parts were being misunderstood.
A much better way, in my view, would be to directly quote the elder. This would mean giving a reference to a narrative, and this is currently not accepted by the community. I have lately not been pushing this point of view because resistance to such a change was more of less unanimous. But with the classical workflow of building Wikipedia content I won't be contributing much to an Oral Traditions project.
Wish you good luck anyway! --Pgallert (talk) 07:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:Oral history, you can record an oral tradition and cite that, and still attribute it to them. It is a big issue though. Personally I’d like all recorded oral traditions to be attributed. The issue is verifiability, but you could also film someone performing an oral tradition, upload it to YouTube, and cite that? Kowal2701 (talk) 07:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the message on the WP talkpage, are you aware of WP:Oral citations experiment? Kowal2701 (talk) 15:01, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kowal2701:I think User:Aprabhala has given up on this, and I haven't pursued the matter further, even though I'm still a somewhat active editor. The feedback I received from various presentations at Wikimanias and WikiIndabas was very encouraging and positive. This is in contrast to the feedback online, which was "go away".

This was to a large extent my fault: I wasn't able to bring across my point. You seem to be very energetic and interested in the topic, so I will try my luck with you:

In an oral culture, publications are oral, a performance in front of an audience. The most important way to "publish" is to be the recognised narrator of history and culture at an official event like the burial of an important person, the celebration of an anniversary, the inauguration of a leader or an institution, and so on. The occasion, the place, and the role of the narrator determines the legitimacy of the oral narrative.

This narrative is verifiable: Once the next leader dies, the same string of history and context will be provided by the then-recognised knowledge bearer. At the next anniversary of a leader's death, their biography will again be narrated, and if there is a change in narration, then this is due to a change in perception within the community; history books change over time, too.

So, neither a recording nor a scientific citation will win over the relevance and quality of an oral citation. To document knowledge from an oral culture, we need to cite the narrative directly, citing narrator, place, and occasion.

I've been authoring numerous papers, book chapters and conference contributions about this issue (check "Peter Gallert" on Google Scholar), but I haven't convinced the Wikipedia editors. That doesn't change my view that it is counter-productive to adhere to the accepted Wikipedia workflow of "Wait for a scientist to visit and write a paper" -> "Cite the scientist's paper". There are thousands of documented cases where scientists got it completely wrong, and a direct quote from the elders would be clearer, more factual, easier to understand, and more relevant. --Pgallert (talk) 19:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. It is the position or role that gives it legitimacy, like Griot, and these people are just as valuable and proficient as academics. At the moment so much knowledge and expertise is ignored. I suggest we start at common ground, which is identifying the problem. If we can all agree that this is a big problem, then we can all work on a solution. Some may not like any solution and see it as unsolvable, but as long as they agree that there is a problem, it is constructive, and their criticism will be useful. This is corporate bollocks, but when you have an idea that you believe in, you have to knock on that door at least 10 times, improving on the criticism you receive each time.
I think that once we can get most to agree on the identification of the problem, it might be worth looking at voice notes, where the citation template links to a separate page which has the voice note embedded, a transcription, and a translation into english. These can be verified by another EC user who speaks the native language. It isn't perfect, but most people in Africa have smartphones, so it won't be too much of a barrier Kowal2701 (talk) 20:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The status quo is a bit sickening tbh Kowal2701 (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. Wikipedia is supposed to be the sum of all human knowledge. Not all first-world knowledge. Not all knowledge documented in writing. All knowledge. --- I'm almost off to Wikimania,won't be answering much in the coming week. But if you have a place to brainstorm, I'll contribute. Cheers, Pgallert (talk) 20:13, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One thing that may be causing a negative reaction is the use of the term 'Elder'. In the west we view 'Elders' as anyone that is old, and we have plenty of unwise old people lol. In reality it is a prestigious administrative title not handed to everyone, so clarifying that any time you can and emphasising it as a specific role might be helpful Kowal2701 (talk) 20:18, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's just a different culture. Down here, efficiency, speed, adaptiveness, all the abilities of the Young, do not matter in the slightest. Consensus and harmony are important, and indeed, being recognised an elder is the highest honour anyone can achieve. An Omuherero colleague of mine, PhD in Computer Science, very successful, once told me he would give up all of his academic achievements if he became village elder of his 80-household hamlet. BTW, I believe that European elders are equally wise, just that nobody listens to them. --Pgallert (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, my gran is brilliant. Because everyone now lives to old age it's lost its novelty. There's a difference in thinking for an answer and feeling for one, and the latter fosters wisdom. But our job is not to argue a position but to convince people and we need to address their concerns. Kowal2701 (talk) 20:40, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I say ‘our’ like I’ve done anything, you’ve obviously put a massive amount of time, passion, and expertise into this and I need to engage more with the work you’ve done before I speak properly Kowal2701 (talk) 23:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't seem to access the papers you've written. Do you have any records of the feedback you received? Kowal2701 (talk) 11:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote a book chapter summarising that feedback but it is somewhere on my home computer, and behind a pay wall on the Internet. If you send me an email I can give you a copy next week. -- Pgallert (talk) 13:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, email- [email protected]
Hope you’re enjoying the conference Kowal2701 (talk) 13:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it make sense to segregate literate and oral citations? Oral citations could have a different symbol or notation, so then the reader can treat the information relative to how they value literacy or orality. Jan Vansina differentiates between oral and literate civilisations. In literate civilisations it is natural to have prejudice, the counterpart of pride in the written word, towards the oral word, and in oral civilisations it is natural to have prejudice towards the written word. If it isn't already, I think this needs to be discussed in introductions you give. I imagine natural prejudice is the crux of the disagreement. Kowal2701 (talk) 12:02, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And it needs to be shed in order to engage with oral traditions etc. Kowal2701 (talk) 06:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's very true, @Kowal2701. The pro-oral group is a tiny minority, though, and our consensus protocol on Wikipedia is still very much a head count. -- Pgallert (talk) 13:31, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I imagine most people are well meaning and well intentioned and not aware of this prejudice, so it might be more of an educational job Kowal2701 (talk) 13:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As long as discussing this is explicitly not an attempt to dismiss or cover up valid criticisms of the proposal Kowal2701 (talk) 13:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For your information

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Languages of Namibia :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Novem Linguae/Scripts/CiteHighlighter –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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