User talk:Yuchitown

	The Original Barnstar
	For your work on Dahti Tsetso. Bearian (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Well that was interesting

The IP's bizarre behavior and insistence/request to block certain editors from certain pages, as the recent named user was only blocked from those exact pages, and the IP only being able to edit the talk pages, seems a clear indication that the IP was evading that account's partial block. Increasing the block parameters on the named user should take care of it. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:53, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, seems like there's been a pattern of single-used accounts who, instead of reading up on any of Wikipedia's protocols, just try to imitate Wikipedia terminology to discredit regular users. I guess I just have to get used to this kind of projection. Thank you for taking action. Yuchitown (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

IP hopper at Cheraw

Do you think wee need a semiprotect at Cheraw? That's 3 different IPs in the same range making the identical edit over the last 4-5 days. Leaving messages and warnings at their talks and in edit summaries is obviously doing no good, as so far no response or change in behavior. Heiro 04:53, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm always for semi-protecting everything! Will request. Yuchitown (talk) 15:16, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I've added it to my watchlist just for a set of additional eyes watching for any further disruption. --ARoseWolf 16:12, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Right on. Thank you! Yuchitown (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thanks y'all! Heiro 18:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Dramahz

Posting deceptive intelligance and protecting misleading information about a tribe that your tribe was known to war with is a conflict of interest. Insitemobile (talk) 18:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Just FYI, my username was selected somewhat at random. Please familiarize yourself with the policy: Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Yuchitown (talk) 18:40, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Your page data and username refer to the aforementioned conflict of interest that you have Insitemobile (talk) 18:58, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Since they hadn't actually filed it when they dropped that ANI tag at Talk:Sapony (cart before horse much?), figured I'd let you know they did eventually get around to filing at ANI. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Spam, Vandalism and Bullying By Native Tribes And it's the long winded almost unintelligible screed you would have thought it'd be. Yet another page they probably should have read up on, WP:BOOMERANGs. Heiro 18:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Yup, WP:BOOMERANG. And this was pretty much my opinion all along as well, although I usually try to AGF. Keep up with the good work you do here, just letting you know it is appreciated.. Heiro 03:40, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I wish sociologists, psychologists, and historians were studying and publishing neutral materials about these topics. Yuchitown (talk) 17:19, 5 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Looks like admins are covering the articles listed at AN but if you run across any others that need a set of eyes watching then just let me know. As much as I know it is inevitable I am so sorry you had to endure the harassment and personal attacks by the above user and subsequent IP's for protecting the integrity of the encyclopedia and I am glad for the swift action of admins to inhibit the continued attacks. I hate that there is no real way to stop the attacks but the fact they can be limited is somewhat comforting. Be on guard and stay safe, Yuchi. You are an amazing editor and I appreciate your work and am honored to be a part of this community with you. --ARoseWolf 15:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Ditto what ARoseWolf said. Geezum Pete. Reading through this (and on the other page), by their logic every article I have written would be a COI because I am a woman. We follow sources. If there are few sources related to state recognized tribes that is a tragedy, but not one WP editors can fix. For hundreds of years, sources on women were rarely used in history books either, but digitization has vastly expanded our ability to write on topics that in the past were omitted. The combination of digitization and scholarly interest has allowed us to diversify our coverage, but we aren't yet at the place that fully comprehensive history can be written. So sorry this person, who might have some real contributions to make, could not move past their anger to work with others and find paths to solve the issues. I appreciate your levelheadedness and focus on keeping the standards of our work high. SusunW (talk) 16:16, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both, ARoseWolf and SusunW. While that episode escalated very quickly, the behavior definitely follows a pattern (projecting accusations of COI, referencing 18th-century history, conspiracy theories, etc.). I use the standard templates on wp:warn, especially with IPs. These smaller, more obscure groups attract wp:SPAs who use Wikipedia to promote them and validate their claims. Objective, third-party references are genuinely difficult to find for these groups, but it's hard to convey that uncited and self-published sources are absolutely not permitted. If you all have suggestions for better ways to handle such situations, please share! Thanks, Yuchitown (talk) 19:10, 6 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I think you handled it in the only way it could be handled diplomatically. I wish I had ideas about solutions. Unfortunately, it's a hard bar to overcome since the most likely place to obtain factual information is the government entity that provided recognition and/or the tribe itself, neither of which by our rules is independent. Short of a miraculous sudden interest by academia, the only path that seems likely is by creating media attention to press scholars to fill the gap. Not something within the purview of wikipedia editors. SusunW (talk) 19:24, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Of course, there are solutions. For instance, I just purchased Recognition, Sovereignty Struggles, and Indigenous Rights in the United States: A Sourcebook. And with the Sappony article, the problem was not that I lacked a published academic source, it's that the SPA was trying to delete the book they didn't agree with. But I am troubled by your suggestion that materials by the US federal and state governments are compromised. WP:Independent is mainly concerned about sources writing about themselves for promotional purposes. While secondary sources are typically preferable to primary and tertiary sources, primary sources can be used in certain situations. For instance the Federal Register is cited throughout Wikipedia and is the main source of List of federally recognized tribes in the United States (which needs one more edit). Yuchitown (talk) 01:27, 7 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

My personal opinion is that primary sources created by governments or tribes are not compromised sources, but I see lots of editors on here definitely think primary=bad, no exceptions. It's baffling to me. SusunW (talk) 03:10, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I can see not using self-published materials by tribes as a source for the tribes themselves. Citations from the US federal government and the states aren't about themselves but rather other organizations, tribes, entities, etc. In the same vein of using the US census as a source for demographic information about a city. Yuchitown (talk) 04:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I think we hang up too much on the word Primary. A primary source is not necessarily self-published. It just means the source is close to the subject of the statement. But because the Federal Government dictates who is considered federally recognized, that makes them Primary and Self-published to that criteria. I would feel better if we could find a secondary source, even one that simply states that they are Federally recognized in passing. However, I don't think this is an egregious break in standards and policy in editing, nor disruptive to the purposes of the encyclopedia, and believe this would be a legitimate reason to ignore this requirement. As noted by Yuchitown, it is in the same vein as the use of the US census for demographics and population totals for a particular area. --ARoseWolf 20:35, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I’m sorry, I disagree. The ‘’Federal Register’’ is not self-published. It’s not one person writing whatever they want on a blog; it’s compiled by numerable people and vetted by others. There is accountability that would not be present in a self-published work. Yuchitown (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

The community has ruled contrary in a lot of cases. They view government documents as both primary and self-published because it is the government itself that is publishing the work and it is employees of the government publishing the documents. Not saying I agree but that's how consensus has ruled in the past. It's no different than a business publishing something on their own site. It can be reviewed and vetted by others to be accurate but if those others don't then republish it as secondary sources then we only have this primary source to rely on for accuracy. You and I may know it is accurate but what we know doesn't matter. Our own thoughts are OR. --ARoseWolf 13:21, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The thing I always counter with is that self-published sources by experts, which we consider the ones compiling and ruling on these kinds of things to be, are considered reliable and therefore they pass the sniff test, so to speak. --ARoseWolf 13:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I came here to remind you that the protection on Cheraw has expired incase you didn't see it. We may need to be more vigilant for disruptive SPA IP's soon. --ARoseWolf 13:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

There's such a wide array of government documents, that some of them would be wp:self-published, say if the EPA sent out a press release about the success of a clean-up effort. But the Federal Register is a published, periodical. But if a problem ever arises, I'll deal with it then. 15:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

You’re being attacked at AN.

Doug Weller talk 19:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Right on. Thank you for the head's up! Yuchitown (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Meherrin Indian Tribe is a very good article. Well done! BoyTheKingCanDance (talk) 03:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Yuchitown (talk) 04:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

That's BS!

		Native American contributor
		The Native American Barnstar is given to the users who contribute cited and balanced content toward articles regarding the Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Thank you for your contributions! GenQuest "scribble" 04:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your kindness! Happy editing to you, too! Yuchitown (talk) 13:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Hawk Littlejohn

siyo, I'd like to speak with you before I make major corrections to this person's page. He wasn't Cherokee at all, but a massive fraud. It's quite complicated but I have all the documentation. I've never edited before so wanted to reach out. Anitsilvsgi (talk) 06:26, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Hesci, Anitsilvsgi. Wikipedia has a number of prompts to walk you through how to edit, beginning with simple copy editing. Single-use accounts (people that create accounts to achieve one purpose) are generally frowned upon. The key to successful contributions is to remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that only draws from published writing, mainly secondary sources (read wp:cite and wp:reliable), so raw genealogy information or material from forums cannot be used here. Ideally, that information would be used in an article published by a news outlet. I'm not familiar with Hawk Littlejohn. Right now the wiki article says he is an enrolled ECBI tribe member, but published sources don't make that statement, so it looks like someone jumped to a conclusion along the way, which happens all the time. Yuchitown (talk) 17:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Looking through the editing history, it turns out that I'm the person that jumped to the conclusion. I apologize for my mistake! Yuchitown (talk) 18:46, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thanks so much for your help. Yes, you made the edits which is why I wanted to reach out. I'm familiar with the good work you do and didn't want to step on toes as a newbie. I'd actually love to talk to you more about this case by email if you're interested. If not I'll work my way through the learning materials you kindly provided before starting the edits. Luckily there have been some things published by EBCI members about his deception over the years. Thanks again! Anitsilvsgi (talk) 18:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Sure, you should be able to email me through Wikipedia. Yuchitown (talk) 19:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I don’t think I can because I'm classified as "brand new". You've already been super helpful though. If you wanted to email me I'd be happy to talk. Sgi Anitsilvsgi (talk) 22:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Thank you for all the work you did on Crow Village Sam, I was really bummed that I couldn't find resources to save it at AfD but I just saw how much work you and others put into saving it and it made me really happy. Your works is important and I look forward to seeing more of it here. Dr vulpes (💬 • 📝) 21:46, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much! It is frustrating when so many people are trying to add more biographies and material about Indigenous peoples of the Americas, then random people unfamiliar with the subject. I cringe to think what the random American knows about Indigenous topics, much less someone from the Eastern Hemisphere. Maybe the work we all contribute here can improve that a little. Yuchitown (talk) 02:07, 6 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

See this

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America#You're in the news Doug Weller talk 17:36, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Doug, I caught that comment when it was first posted. Good that there's news coverage. I thought perhaps it might have a chilling effect on would-be Wiki editors. While plenty of folks might be fighting about Andrew Jackson's articles, so many Indigenous articles are in dire need of extra eyes on them! Take care, Yuchitown (talk) 20:08, 14 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Did you see the most recent posts? Doug Weller talk 20:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I don't know anything about Australian history. It seems like the solution for bad Wikipedia editing conflicts is to go write articles and books. That is to say, I don’t have any brilliant solutions to institutional racism here. Yuchitown (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I don't think there is any solution we could implement. Doug Weller talk 07:37, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I guess try to help out when we see experienced editors struggling. Yuchitown (talk) 16:26, 15 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yes, that’s important. Doug Weller talk 18:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

My apologies

Hi! I just wanted to sincerely apologize. It seems I misunderstood/misrepresented your position on an edit in the Sacheen Littlefeather page. It truly wasn’t intentional. I honestly thought you were saying you supported the edit Dumuzid suggested. Unfortunately, the internet does seem to make communication difficult sometimes. But anyway, I appreciate your willingness to discuss and I respect your opinion. I just didn’t want you to feel that I was doing anything malicious. Thank you again and have a lovely day! Aquamarine9719 (talk) 22:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

That conservations is so insanely long that I don't think any human being could track all of those treads. Yuchitown (talk) 00:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Skidi

When I created the article that you have proposed for merging the opening sentence said "The Skidis or Panismahas were related to the Pawnee and the Omaha."John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

So it sounds like you would support the merge? Would you be willing to comment on Talk:Skidi#Merge proposal? Thanks so much, Yuchitown (talk) 16:57, 28 July 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Judi M. gaiashkibos

Hello my friend. I've just finished an article on Judi M. gaiashkibos and would appreciate you giving it a look from a Native perspective. I appreciate you. SusunW (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I've never heard of this person (besides the Women in Red page) in my entire life. I thought about suggesting names, but every single notable person I could think of already had a profile. Yuchitown (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I've actually had her on my radar for a couple of years, but when I read about the dig in the Washington Post last month, I decided it was time to dig in and do her. SusunW (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh good! New sources! Yuchitown (talk) 01:16, 2 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Melungeon religion

Hi Yuchitown. Thanks for your improvements to Melungeon. I don't see any reliable source for religions of Baptist and Pentecostal. The only reference to Baptist is a reference to a woman in a Baptist church being offended at being called a Melungeon, which doesn't seem to confirm Baptist religion among Melungeons. Pentecostal isn't discussed at all. I know many people in that region are Baptists and Pentecostals, but at this point I don't think we have any information about Melungeons and religion. I would guess that their ancestors had a variety of religious affiliations. Some may have had no religious affiliation. Perhaps you are seeking reliable sources, but should we place a "citation needed" tag for religion? Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 14:56, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

That's fine; you can remove that (you are completely correct; it is uncited). I was just trying to clean up the crazy claims that an earlier editor inserted with through a long list of citations, that did not back the claims up at all. It's crazy what a disaster that article is and how it attracts so many editors who want to insert these wp:fringe theories. I know Wikipedia comes down hard on any homeopathic medicine claims. I should look through WP:WikiProject Skepticism to see how they handle articles that are misinformation magnets. It would be great if Melungeon could at least be semi-protected. Yuchitown (talk) 15:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

BTW are you familiar with any warnings for misrepresenting citations? I've read that doing so is considered a serious, blockable offense, so I'll mention it on talk pages, but nothing ever happens. Yuchitown (talk) 15:09, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

If you haven't already, take a look at WP:WARN. Numerous warning templates are described. Although the templates for unsourced additions or introducing factual errors do not specifially mention misprepresenting sources, an edit is not properly sourced if the edit is not fully confirmed by the cited source. You can also add your own messages to warnings, usually after a pipe, as in {{subst:Uw-unsourced3|article|your additional text}}. Sundayclose (talk) 15:34, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

BTW if someone repeatedly misrepresents sources you can make a report at WP:ANI, providing diffs to support the report. You also have to notify the editor you're reporting. Sometimes it takes a while to get a response, but eventually an admin will look at it and either discuss with the offending editor or perhaps issue a sanction. The problem with anon IPs is that they change IP addresses. If it happens repeatedly in an article you can request semiprotection at WP:RPP. If it's semiprotected IPs can't edit, but most registered users can edit. Sundayclose (talk) 16:50, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Usually these are just single-purpose accounts that just come and go for the most part. But there has to be someway to get that article sorted out. Yuchitown (talk) 23:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

2 more

I was finally able to write Beverly Horse, who has been on my radar for a long time. It took figuring out her maiden name, Johnson, to dig out enough sources. Unfortunately I don't have access to many sources in Lawton/Andadarko, but enough to establish her notability, I think. Perhaps someone down there can find more.

I also finished Dorothy Davids. I am toying with nominating it for GA and would appreciate any guidance you might have before I nominate it. Thank you for always having I collaborative spirit. I appreciate your help. If you don't have time, no worries. SusunW (talk) 17:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I checked those out. Yeah, too bad the Lawton Constitution is behind a paywall. The Anadarko Daily News might have articles archives, but I don't know how they could be searched. I made some minor tweaks. Apparently, MOS:NUMBERS calls for numbers zero through nine to be spelled out but higher numbers to be written in arabic numerals. Anytime you want to find the current official name for a tribe, just google "Federal Register"+"tribe"+current year. Even The New York Times just makes up names for tribes! Searching all those sources must have taken forever! Yuchitown (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thank you so much. I really do appreciate your help and your tips. I love the research part of writing and instead of working on a theme this year, I have decided to work through some of the women who have been on the list for years without an article being written. A lot of times, what unlocks them is discovering their maiden name. I got lucky with gaiashkibos because someone had labeled her beauty queen photos (as Judi Upton) with her current surname. I had a heck of a time with Horse until I realized her position was a government post, so it was likely an obit was in The Oklahoman. That paper always runs obits surname first and it gave me her maiden name, which then let me search on the tribal census and find her family. Davids was easy by comparison, lots of sources since she never married. SusunW (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a subscription to Newspapers.com through Wikipedia? Someone they gave me one. Yuchitown (talk) 18:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yes, it's an invaluable resource! I use both newspapers.com and newspaperarchive.com through the WP Library. They've made some weird changes recently, but I still figured out how to clip them when I was working on Horse, see discussion on WIR page. SusunW (talk) 18:52, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Fantastic! Yuchitown (talk) 22:59, 6 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Josephine Waconda

I was amazed she did not already have an article, but it is done. I'd appreciate you looking it over. That said, I think there is a problem with linking her. I would like to link her to her father Miguel and brother Michael, but the article we have for her father Michael Trujillo seems to have used the brother's name. I am 100% sure dad wasn't Michael. He appears on the Pueblo of Isleta census as Miguel and then there are all of these: [1],[2],[3],(pt 1 and pt 2), (pt1, pt2). The brother, Michael also has a ton of sources [4],[5],[6] (pt 1, [7],pt 2, pt 3), just as an example. Not exactly sure if the current article should just be moved to Miguel and a new article for Michael written or if the current article should be rewritten containing the information on Michael and Miguel's article created. I am happy to provide sources, but I'd rather move on to a woman. Your thoughts? SusunW (talk) 18:04, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I've just boldly moved her dad's article to Miguel and will write a stub on her brother. SusunW (talk) 18:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Selma Walker

I hope I am not overburdening you. This one was crazy confusing. Not only did her last name change (3 times) but her first name changed as well. I was not able to find either she or her siblings on the Santee, Sisseton, or Yankton rolls. The Native American Indian Center of Central Ohio says she was enrolled as part of the Yankton tribe and while I concur that she was born there, that seems unusual. But, that said, her mother Cora's records clearly show that while she was enumerated on the census of the Sisseton Agency for the Lake Traverse Indian Reservation, she lived on and was enrolled as a Sisseton at the Yankton Reservation. Very confusing. Perhaps you could give it a glance and see if I handled it okay. SusunW (talk) 20:32, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Shelly Crow

I literally stumbled across her quite by accident and could not believe she wasn't on our red lists. If you wouldn't mind, can you give it a look? I appreciate you. SusunW (talk) 20:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Also did Harriet Wright O'Leary, the last one I am going to get done this month. SusunW (talk) 20:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Like a punch to the gut

I feel it. This is terrible and could have been avoided. What a sad day, especially for IPNA but more specifically the Indigenous community and topics on WP. --ARoseWolf 13:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely! Very heartbreaking. I don’t fully understand all the details (have been slammed IRL so haven’t been able to read through things) but a great loss for diversity and expertise in Wikipedia. Yuchitown (talk) 03:29, 17 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

I don't understand any of it and I'm not sure how IG got wrapped up in it. It's crazy weird how everything happened so quickly too. Losing Corbie as an admin focused on Indigenous topics is huge. I hope the vandals don't move in but I'm sure they will. I'm going to add back a few articles on my watchlist though I'm only on sporadically. I have supplies coming in this month that require my attention and Winter approaches. I'll do what I can. This is a huge blow if we lose both Corbie and IG. --ARoseWolf 12:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Category:Canadian people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent has been nominated for deletion

Category:Canadian people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Bearcat (talk) 23:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Traditional Native American clothing

I don't know why that really got to me this morning. I know the intention is in good faith but it just feels like another marginalization. Why people see Native American and immediately think there is anyway you could ever put all in a single "box" and do justice by it but not any other ethnic group, is beyond me. I appreciate what you said. --ARoseWolf 15:27, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Your points were all fair and reasoned. These broad overviews only seem possible if someone has no familiarity with the subject and they invite stereotypes. Yuchitown (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Request for a pair of eyes

Hello Yuchitown. I was given your name by SusunW when I asked her for the name of an editor with lived experience of Indigenous peoples of the North American continent. You see, I have drafted a page on Victoria Howard, a Chinook storyteller. I am anxious to get the tone of the page right. I wonder if you might look at it and tell me if I have made any mistakes in the way I have described things? I have used a capital I at the start of the word Indigenous for example, just as I might use a capital B at the start of the phrase Black people in the UK context. I might have got other things wrong. If you are too busy, I will quite understand and might then approach ARoseWolf who SusunW thought might have some ideas too? Balance person (talk) 17:13, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi Balance person, I made some quick suggestions to your draft page. Of course, if you don't like any, you can revert. Looks like you are using the Oregon Encyclopedia which appears to be a solid source. You might have to fight to establish this person's notability. I believe you can go ahead and add things like a Template:Reflist and Template:Infobox writer to a draft article (SusunW and ARoseWolf likely know the answer). To add categories to a non-live page, you can place a colon between the first two brackets and the word category, so it won't go "live" (delete the colons when you publish the article), like this: [[:Category:category name]]. But right now, the big thing would be gathering sources to demonstrate this person's notability. Best of luck! Yuchitown (talk) 17:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thank you very much for your time and for your edits. Of course I will keep them all! Hope to 'meet' you again soon! Balance person (talk) 18:31, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Yuchitown, I think that's a really thorough response and one we encounter countless times a day. We can create articles all day and night but we have to be prepared to provide the reliable sources to prove notability and may have to defend our rationale.Balance person --ARoseWolf 18:33, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I do hope VH is considered notable as her songs and stories have been studied so many times apparently that it only seems right! I will ask Ipigott too who has been so kind as to help me from when I started. Thank you both for your consideration. I am pretty inexperienced so like the help! Balance person (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your wonderful improvements to the Victoria Howard page. Balance person (talk) 13:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for writing about her. Happy editing to you! Yuchitown (talk) 20:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Ducks a-quacking

Something seems to be quacking around here. There are four new editors pushing their POV, one with only 25 edits, one with only 16 edits, and two with only one edit each. Netherzone (talk) 17:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

As you can likely read in the Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TelGonzie, I found seven accounts making similar edits; more were popping up even while I was typing. Thank you for looking into List of organizations that self-identify as Native American tribes. Yuchitown (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Thanks for the link to that SPI. Very interesting. Netherzone (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Shawnee Nation URB

I would like to know how we can come to an agreement on the contents of my page. Peshewapope (talk) 02:09, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

No one owns any Wikipedia articles. Yuchitown (talk) 02:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

it's not mine I know, but it is about me and my people. The information you chose to put on there is not true and I think you know that. 71.213.174.28 (talk) 02:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Conversation about that article should take place on the article's talk page. Yuchitown (talk) 03:01, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Amazing information you found for this edit but does it belong in the lead? The more I look at it though the more I think it maybe belongs under section titled "Status". Look at it again and tell me what you think. --ARoseWolf 18:40, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It really doesn’t have much to do with “Status,” but feel free to create a new section, perhaps “History”? Having a recent article discussing some of the people involved and history of the group and a subsequent splinter group seemed helpful. Yuchitown (talk) 20:23, 12 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

is there a way I can send you a picture of the actual document of recognition? If you are even a little interested in factual information, I will send this to you promptly. Otherwise, stop trolling. Peshewapope (talk) 01:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Read any of the many links that people have provided you about Wikipedia:Reliable sources to understand why photographs of documents are not acceptable as citations here. Yuchitown (talk) 02:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Pueblo

Hi Yuchitown, hope all is well in your world. Thank you for your improvements to Pueblo, I will try to also do some work on it in the next few days. I did want to gently point out an error in the infobox stating there are 23 pueblos in New Mexico. There are 19 pueblos in New Mexico; the other tribes are Apache, and Navajo - not Puebloans. Netherzone (talk) 16:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I was looking at that and was confused, so thanks for addressing that. The Piro/Manso/Tiwa Indian Tribe of the Pueblo of San Juan de Guadalupe is actively petitioning for recognition, so might bear mentioning somewhere in the article. Thanks! Yuchitown (talk) 16:43, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Good idea! Netherzone (talk) 16:59, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

City-recognized tribes in the United States

See [8] and their talk page. Wow. Doug Weller talk 12:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think much of this is an improvement either.[9] Doug Weller talk 12:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hope I went through the articles for deletion steps correctly. I can see how Wikipedia would make it complex so people don't do it frivolously but seems like the steps were more clearly explained in the past. Yuchitown (talk) 15:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Twinkle makes it really easy. Doug Weller talk 15:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Something new to learn! Yuchitown (talk) 16:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Pueblo feast days

Hi Yuchitown! Hope things are good with you. I saw your improvements to the Pueblo article, thanks for that, glad that the move proposal failed. ;-)

I'm wondering if it's necessary (or a good idea) to list all the feast days on the article, tho. Sometimes the dates move around from year to year, but what really concerns me is the possibility of a flood of tourists if the dates are in the encyclopedia. Not all tourists are respectful of boundaries and proper behavior, some are "yahoo types" that get rowdy and park all over the place and go into folks houses without being invited first (they think everyone's house is open), don't pack out their trash, grab or move around folding chairs that were actually intended for someone's grandma, etc. I guess I'm feeling a little nervous about including actual dates. Many of the dances that happen at some of these events are ceremonial, but not everyone gets that. If people are really interested after reading the article, they can call the respective Pueblo offices or the Pueblo Cultural Center to find out when feast days are.

Here's a thought, and I'm be happy to help or do the work...what if a small selection of these were described in prose instead of the full calendar?

Please let me know what you think when you find a moment. Best to you, Netherzone (talk) 19:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

As a side note, have either of you ever been to one of these feast day ceremonies? I caught one when we were passing through New Mexico in 2018. We absolutely were not able to photograph the ceremonies and dances but we were allowed to photograph some of the settlements. It is amazing being exposed to other Native American cultures. When we lived in Montana I became involved with the Crow there and then the Tlingit, Athabaskan and Nunamiut in Alaska. The Peublos have an incredibly rich cultural history and I am profoundly humbled by and honored to have witnessed even a small part of that. --ARoseWolf 20:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Been to many throughout the years, not just feast days but also Shalako and a range of ceremonial dances. Netherzone (talk) 20:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Shalako is ceremonial and more private, but the pueblo feast days I posted were already on the Pueblo peoples page. I moved them but refined them based on a tourist website; will correct them further with IPCC's website (unless someone else wants too). This is all very public knowledge; I imagine tourists are more chill now than they've been in past decades. Yes, have attended several. Yuchitown (talk) 20:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Agreed that a better source than the "Santa Fe Selection Travel Guide" is needed. Tourists are not more chill these days, esp. with their honkingly humungous SUVs that they can't drive well, lol! Netherzone (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm... I still maintain this is completely (and appropriately) public information (from Pueblo sources too!), but will add IPCC. The Pueblos decide when to let people in and when not to. Yuchitown (talk) 23:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:American people of Tongva descent

A tag has been placed on Category:American people of Tongva descent indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I see that all the articles have been been moved to more appropriate categories so the speedy deletion makes sense. Yuchitown (talk) 15:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Sorry, I'll tag you with an explanation if there's a similar situation in the future. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 20:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You're fine! I should look before I comment. Thank heavens for reverting! Yuchitown (talk) 01:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Mohave

There's a renaming discussion at Category:Mohave tribe. There's an editor asking when it is best to use "tribe" or "people" or "ethnic group" etc, particularly when referring to historical groups. Your input would be appreciated. For renaming categories that cannot be shortened, such as Category:Wichita tribe, could something like Category:Wichita (Indigenous people) work instead? In the case of categories like Category:Crow tribe where there's only one federally recognized tribe, couldn't they be merged to their name on the federal register? EG, Category:Crow Tribe or Category:Crow Tribe of Montana? Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 23:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I hate the parenthetic phrases. Also making anything more complex than it needs to be. Will check it out. Yuchitown (talk) 23:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Yuchitown. Thank you for your work on Pocasset village. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Good day! Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia by writing this article. I have marked the article as reviewed. Have a wonderful and blessed day for you and your family!

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|SunDawn}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 04:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I’m still unsure of the best name, since the site spans two states. Have a good one! Yuchitown (talk) 04:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it has the perfect name as is. There were several editors that collaborated to create Historic Cherokee settlements even before it was published. In that article you find a list of Cherokee settlements, many which have similar titles to how your article here is structured. Thank you for creating this article! --ARoseWolf 15:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that link! This site is tricky since it spans both Tiverton and Fall River, and, ironically, isn’t closely connected Pocasset, Massachusetts. Yuchitown (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	I just wanted to say thank you for all that you do here. You are apperciated. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 05:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

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Request for Review on Orangeburg County, South Carolina Page

Hi Yuchitown,

I'm seeking your expertise regarding the Wikipedia page for Orangeburg County, South Carolina, particularly the section on Native American entities. There have been recurring edits that inaccurately imply that an unrecognized group is a state or federally recognized tribe by association with a state-recognized special interest group. These edits often incorporated unsubstantiating citations. Despite efforts to maintain the integrity of the section, interested users, presumably associated with the Pine Hill Indian Tribe, persist in making edits.

As I know you are involved in Native American-related pages and have significant experience in this area, I would greatly appreciate your help in maintaining the impartiality of the information presented. Additionally, any advice or measures you might suggest to prevent the insertion of misleading content by interested parties would be appreciated. Thanks! Nativecrusader (talk) 15:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I tried to explain Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) on the talk page. Let's see if that helps at all. Yuchitown (talk) 17:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Introduction to contentious topics

You have recently edited a page related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, a topic designated as contentious. This is a brief introduction to contentious topics and does not imply that there are any issues with your editing.

A special set of rules applies to certain topic areas, which are referred to as contentious topics. These are specially designated topics that tend to attract more persistent disruptive editing than the rest of the project and have been designated as contentious topics by the Arbitration Committee. When editing a contentious topic, Wikipedia’s norms and policies are more strictly enforced, and Wikipedia administrators have special powers in order to reduce disruption to the project.

Within contentious topics, editors should edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and:

• adhere to the purposes of Wikipedia;
• comply with all applicable policies and guidelines;
• follow editorial and behavioural best practice;
• comply with any page restrictions in force within the area of conflict; and
• refrain from gaming the system.

Editors are advised to err on the side of caution if unsure whether making a particular edit is consistent with these expectations. If you have any questions about contentious topics procedures you may ask them at the arbitration clerks' noticeboard or you may learn more about this contentious topic here. You may also choose to note which contentious topics you know about by using the {{Ctopics/aware}} template.

Morbidthoughts (talk) 19:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If you continue to insert disputed assertions about living people as you did in Martha Redbone, I will move this dispute to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I added exact quotes from the individual in question diff. What on earth is the problem with that? And shouldn't this conversation take place on the talk page of that article? Yuchitown (talk) 13:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

This is yet another attempt to push a very specific POV by making threats if you don't remain quiet. Morbidthoughts, "Shut up and sit down or face retribution" is not a very collegial way to edit. --ARoseWolf 14:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Reinserting those contentious categories based on quotes from some children-oriented bio from Carnegie Hall (not a reliable source) is indeed a BLP violation, introducing both original research and disrupting the WP:WEIGHT of how the one reliable source, the newspaper, actually writes about her. You two both participated in the Norby discussion[10] and know fully well how highly contentious these types of edits are. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Morbidthoughts, What I see is you pushing a personal point of view that something sourced doesn't belong in an article and making unfounded accusations. How is it OR to include the literal quotes from the source article? You say Yuchitown placed OR in the article which is a complete falsehood and brings your entire position into question. I am beginning to wonder if you even read the source or just immediately reacted by threatening a fellow editor. What is contentious is your position that your opinion matters over fact, not what is written in a source. What you demonstrate is that sources matter unless you deem it not to. From my viewpoint you are to person pushing OR into the article and hiding behind BLP to push your personal POV and then threaten others when challenged. --ARoseWolf 16:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I've said what I've said. You can continue to re-dispute these line of edits at the BLP Noticeboard if you wish. Morbidthoughts (talk) 16:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Which is code for you just fire aspersions and attacks with no regard for discussion. Yeah, you've made your personal views quite clear. Civility and collegial editing be damned. --ARoseWolf 16:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for my lack of clear writing

Yuchitown, I'm so sorry that what I wrote sounded like I was addressing you, rather than the "powers that be" meaning administrators and functionaries who are "concerned" about how active/inactive editors and projects are. I'm the first to admit that I'm a terrible writer, and when I get upset (and I'm mad as heck about how Indigenous people and topics are treated here) I lose focus on how I construct sentences and put together words. I'm rapidly losing faith in the encyclopedia at large because of its colonialist/dominant-culture bias. Please forgive me that it sounded like that was directed at you, it was not. Netherzone (talk) 14:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

You are totally fine, and I’m relieved that you didn’t think I was disparaging you or anyone else. The person to whom you were responding to was trying to make the point about not being active. It’s challenging to unravel this discussions. Regarding loosing faith, almost every mainstream English-language carries forward Western hegemony, but the platform should at least follow its own policies. Yuchitown (talk) 16:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The final ruling in the close review pushed me over the line. I truly admire you both and have for a long time and I thank you for standing up and being counted in these discussions. I am so saddened with this outcome. I know there are ones that simply can not understand what the deal is because they don't know or have the experiences of so many Indigenous people who don't have a voice. And let me say, this is not about activism on Wikipedia. As you pointed out and I drew focus to, the activism was done outside Wiki and now Wikipedia needs to catch up but it never will so long as editors can dismiss reliable sources as irrelevant when those sources don't mirror their personal likes and dislikes. --ARoseWolf 16:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I admire you too! I guess I am jaded as hell after a lifetime of observing anti-Indigenous policies and practices — and non-Native people who don’t know about Native issues or want to learn but have decided they are an authority. *But* this platform still needs to follow its own policies. Yuchitown (talk) 17:41, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I admire you both very much as well~! I agree that the ruling on capital "I" really pushed me over the edge. How can Indigenous people be lumped in with rocks and plants? And the accusations that support of Native topics/rights is viewed as NPOV or favoritism. That's just ethically corrupt. And the recent Kade Ferris AfD closed as no consensus per lack of P&G is nuts, esp. when one takes into account all the flimsy articles and drafts with poor citations that get approved at AfC and NPP. But the Native press gets "poo-poo'd" that it was "probably written by a friend". IPNA/IPA topics are held to a different standard of "excellence". I'm still livid that Corbie was doxed/outed at ANI and ARBCOM which put her at a serious personal safety risk, and then they blamed her for it! I agree with ARWolf that this has nothing to do with activism. The problem is the blindness to bias. Sorry for ranting, but enough is enough! OK, I'm gonna go for a swim now to cool down. I'm so grateful for you two fellow editors. Netherzone (talk) 18:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Corbie being doxxed irked me too and I was upset that my concern, which actually dealt more with Mark, was perceived as calling for Corbie to be desyoped. Nothing could be further from the truth. Corbie and I had disagreements that sometimes boiled over but we were always reasonable about them in the end. The same for IG. I know I can be stubborn about my perspectives. I know who and what I am. But I admired both of them immensely and I never wanted to be a cause for their departure. We needed them here and their voices are missed. I've tried to take a more vocal role, with regard to Native topics, in preserving what they started as much as I could out of respect for them and my own views. The past month with all the media attention, WPO articles, direct anti-Indigenous bias and failures of Wikipedia to even follow it's own policies have simply showed me that Indigenous voices and those of their allies are not welcome here. I have seen the blatant hostility directed towards each of you at various times and experienced the mocking and dismissive indifference myself and it is sickening to me. --ARoseWolf 19:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I totally understand that, @ARoseWolf and I probably was being hyper-sensitive in how I read your message at the time about CV because I felt the tension re: disagreements. I don't mean that as an excuse. Forgive me if I have hurt your feelings in the past; I want you to know I respect you and appreciate your work here. Obviously you were not the cause of CV's departure, it was a cluster-f**k that had nothing to do with you. I too can be stubborn and one of my faults is that I can be overly blunt at times. Thankfully we have a strong project here and many awesome colleagues. Netherzone (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Netherzone, at first it did confuse and hurt but as I thought about it, I understood why you asked, especially in light of the disagreements we had. I even asked her not to comment on my talk page once. But not long after I came back and apologized. I have always had an internal war between opposite natures. One I was simply born with. The other was developed over time and very much necessary because of where I live and the experiences I have had in life. As I said, I know who I am. I was able to feel your sensitivity and the hurt you were feeling at the time based on your words. So I tried to measure my response to not be accusatory but also to emphatically let you know I wanted CV and IG on the encyclopedia and I recognized their importance to the community, to my own editing. The way they were treated was so horrible in my view that it shook my core. While I don't necessarily agree with all that the Mr. Keeler said in his journal, I found no direct evidence that CV was forced out because she was protecting Native topics from colonial views, the fact is that Keeler was right about Wikipedia bias. I think that much is born out in recent discussions. And how or why CV and IG left is really immaterial to that subject. They are a lost reservoir of knowledge and experiences that Wikipedia, and Native topics in particular, needs. All that to say this. I accepted that you were hurt and I set out to be more vocal in my positions to fill in the gap as much as I could in speaking out against the pervasive bias I saw against Indigenous people and the absurd standard that was set for related topics versus others. --ARoseWolf 11:13, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Help?

Sorry, this will be kind of long. I was starting to narrow down sources for my first woman for this year's editathon and was trying to decide if she had ever been a US citizen. She died in 1909, so it was a real question for me knowing that the Indian Citizenship Act did not pass until 1924. In trying to uncover her status, I ran across a statement in Cherokee Nation (1794–1907) that I think is definitely wrong, "After allotment of lands to households, all the Cherokee were considered state and United States citizens". No idea where else it might be stated either. The source given says nothing like that. So I went hunting. Denson, pp 162-163 says Cherokee allotments were untaxable even after 1908 amendments to allow title transfers for allottees who were less than 1/2 Cherokee. Any student of Native/US history knows "Indians not taxed" weren't eligible for citizenship or representation, and Tennant gives a history from the Articles of Confederation through Dred Scott, that makes it clear that even giving up tribal membership and paying taxes did not make Indigenous persons eligible for citizenship. Their only path was naturalization or treaty per p. 30. Then I found this, p 220, which says 31 Stat at L 1447, chap. 868 of 3 March 1901, gave US citizenship to "every Indian in Indian Territory". Which is also confirmed here on p. 12. When I went at the question from the state level, I found Weeks p. 168 which unequivocally says, "Black men had something additional at the time of statehood that Indian men did not: U.S. citizenship and the right to vote". So, what I am sure of is that allotment/Oklahoma statehood had nothing to do with the US citizenship status of the Cherokee, but the 1901 statute did. I still can't figure out if the Cherokee got Oklahoma citizenship, in 1907. Do you have any access to sources which might make it clearer? I think I should probably change the statement in the Cherokee Nation article. Your thoughts? Thanks for your consideration. I'll be most grateful for any help. SusunW (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

This is above my paid grade, and it's all so spotty since many Native people were citizens prior to the 1924 Indian Citizenship Act (for instance, the U.S. Senate Majority Leader at the time, Charles Curtis (Kaw/Osage/Prairie Band Potawatomi). The 1887 Dawes Act promised U.S citizenship to Native people whose land had been allotted, but this was complicated by the 1906 Burke Act; then Native WWI veterans were granted citizenship in 1919. This essay is helpful, especially around page 134. Yuchitown (talk) 03:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Great source and I appreciate it. It confirms the 1901 grant of US citizenship in Indian Territory. Tatro says that the Burke Act didn't apply to "any Indians in the Indian Territory". Lawson pp 52-53 says that in addition to extending the Dawes Act, the Curtis Act gave Native people the right to vote in local elections, but stripped the tribes of the right to determine who were tribal members. It seems likely that Cherokee Nation members who were not "in Indian Territory" did not receive citizenship in 1901 and may have only received it later if they were veterans or when the 1924 act passed, but in any case, the "After allotment of lands to households, all the Cherokee were considered state and United States citizens" statement is clearly not accurate. Based on all of this, I am going to modify the Cherokee Nation statement. I am loathe to say my woman was an American in the lede, as she was only such by force and for the last 8 years of her life, but someone will likely drive by and put that there. SusunW (talk) 15:32, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I made suggestions to your draft (which, of course, you can take or leave). She has so many relatives with articles, you could just look at those. Trying to write an essay about citizenship issues at the time seems very off-topic, especially since it's an incredible complex subject that neither of us are experts on (I am not a lawyer or a legal expert). Yuchitown (talk) 16:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your help. And yes, I was merely compiling my thoughts there before I changed the Cherokee Nation (1794–1907) article. I will move that stuff before I finish her. The way my brain works, I have to resolve the conflicts before I can start writing what I am really trying to write about. SusunW (talk) 16:39, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense. Yuchitown (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I moved most everything and made changes to both the Cherokee Nation (1794–1907) and Indian Citizenship Act articles. Perhaps I should have also looked at the Curtis Act, Burke Act and Dawes articles, but that takes me down a rabbit hole and I'd really rather just work on Bushyhead, so I am going back to her. Again, I truly appreciate your help. SusunW (talk) 19:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Rabbit holes can be fun or edifying. Yuchitown (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

True dat. I finished her, updated her dad's article about his kids, added info to Samuel Houston Mayes and Thomas Buffington's articles and linked her to Alice Brown Davis. If you want to edit Quarels, please feel free. SusunW (talk) 21:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 30

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WikiProject

Hi, I see you've contributed a lot to Inuit religion, would you be interested in a taskforce on oral tradition? Kowal2701 (talk) 16:04, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No, thank you. Cheers, Yuchitown (talk) 19:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No worries Kowal2701 (talk) 19:36, 2 August 2024 (UTC)