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This is an archived version of this page, as edited by Doc James (talk | contribs) at 19:19, 18 September 2017 (→‎Support). It may differ significantly from the current version.

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Statement of issue

We commonly see paid editors pretending to be established Wikipedians such as here (requires registeration).

Proposal

We require those involved with paid editing on Wikipedia to link on their user page to all other active accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing business.

This means that, should we discover an account on a site such as Fiverr or Upwork which state they are involved with paid editing of Wikipedia, however there is no account on Wikipedia that discloses that account, then we can more easily get these types of sites, some with whom we currently have good relationships, to remove those accounts. This will help those here who are being impersonated to stop the impersonation

Example of a case

Here we have a Wikipedia user page of an undisclosed paid editor who claims to be in compliance with our policies and TOU. They do not mention that they are paid, are using socks, have been community banned, or the intermediaries they are using for paid editing.

Here we one of their Upworks profiles were they say they are "fully in compliance to Wikipedia policies and terms of service" which of course they are not. Here is their Guru profile were they also claim they are following the rules.

Here we have a video of theirs on Youtube where they misuse our trademark to promote their business. As they are not in the USA it is a tough case for legal to deal with.

Here is were they were community banned by the EN Community in 2013.[1]

How will this proposal help with the above case? While a Wikipedia user page would need to link to the Upworks profile in question. As one does not we would have an easier time getting Upworks to take down this profile which is in breach of the TOUs of both our sites.

Support

  1. Support as proposer. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:24, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support makes sense. Pundit (talk) 15:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support Jcc (talk) 15:38, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support David Gerard (talk) 16:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Support with comments below Smallbones (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Support --Vituzzu (talk) 18:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Support Definitely makes sense. Tanweer (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  9. support--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:11, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Support makes sense imo. I suppose that it will be the same rule for all wikipedias languages, and probably all WMF wikis ? --Framawiki (talk) 19:42, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Support Support - sensible proposal. – Ajraddatz (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Support Support with the proviso that this only applies on WMF wikis that have disclosure of paid status as a requirement (so not Commons or other projects that have chosen similar alternative policies on disclosure). TonyBallioni (talk) 20:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Support Kudpung (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Support good proposal, with comment below GastelEtzwane (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Support, probably with some wordsmithing per the discussion below. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:41, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Support--Nattes à chat (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Weak support This sounds like a great idea, and if we could actually require (and automatically enforce) this then that would be great. However, I can't see how we could automatically check this (so the burden is still on editors/the WMF) so I think that this is more of a guideline that we would like to see people follow, rather than a requirement. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    BTW Upworks appears to be willing to work with us on semi automated enforcement tools. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:02, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    This sounds like a good step forward! Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 01:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Support Confirmation is an obvious requirement that applies to things like IRC/Cloaks#Obtaining a cloak. I don't want someone claiming to be me with no redress. Johnuniq (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Johnuniq thanks. Interesting to see that we are already doing this for IRC cloaks :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:28, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  19. Support This is actually much closer to a silver bullet for the undisclosed paid editing problem (the part of it that gets facilitiated through Upwork and similar sites) than most people voting here seem to realise. Rentier (talk) 00:54, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Support Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 04:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Support. MER-C (talk) 05:06, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  22. Yes definitely. My name is not dave (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  23. Support. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:09, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  24. Support if I understand this correctly, anyone claiming on one of these sites to be an experienced Wikipedian will need to have a declared account on wiki. This is a good step. We may in future have issues with people offering ambiguous terms such as "profile protection" and "online biography editing" but wikipedia is the obvious search term and this should help there. WereSpielChequers (talk) 08:41, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  25. Support Roxy the dog (talk) 10:49, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  26. Support implementing this will grant more recourse for editors being impersonated, as from what I have seen on Upwork, there are dozens of freelancer claiming to be well established ( many claim to be admins, as that is what clients request in their job postings) Wikipedians.--SamHolt6 (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  27. Support I briefly spoke to Doc James about this at Wikimania. I essentially see this as an extension of the requirement to disclose paid editing. While I do not think this will affect all that many paid editing cases, it will limit to a degree the places in which undisclosed paid editors advertise their services. Mkdw (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  28. Support A good proposal which risks very little in terms of adverse effects. CFCF 💌 📧 14:31, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  29. Support Darylgolden (talk) 03:18, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  30. Support Timawesomeness (talk) 05:09, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  31. Support of course as we discuss the same problem on dewiki as well - -jkb- 21:11, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  32. Support for transparency. --FocalPoint (talk) 21:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  33. Strong support I thought that paid editing was not allowed at all. They changed policy by creating exceptions? Of course those exceptional editors should declare by whom and for what their edits bring them money and/or other benefits. Klaas `Z4␟` V:  21:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  34. Support. It would clearly avoid many conflicts of interest. Good proposal. 1l2l3k (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  35. Support Good proposal for transparency. That makes a lot of sense. --►Cekli829 05:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  36. Support. This kind of measure protects users from being impersonated and helps monitor Wiki accounts involved with paid editions, which is something I consider necessary. Sabbut (talk) 06:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  37. Support --Jojhnjoy (talk) 06:49, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  38. Support Support, but with the same caveat as TonyBallioni (i.e., this doesn't apply to Commons and a few other WMF projects).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  39. Support Support It's a minimum. Pages where a paid editor has contributed should be marked as so clearly for readers. Un historien (talk) 07:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  40. Support Support --Papuass (talk) 07:38, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  41. --Thibaut120094 (talk) 07:46, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  42. Support Support Can be useful in some cases. I see no risk (including for privacy). Jules78120 (talk) 10:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  43. Support Support Support for additional protection from impersonation. --Emain Macha (talk) 11:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  44. Support Support --Guise (talk) 12:19, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  45. Support Like tears in rain (talk) 14:00, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  46. Support Support --Sargoth (talk) 16:07, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  47. Support I have thought about this a long time. I am sympathetic to what Bilby and others have written about this being burdensome. However making these kinds of links is actually routine for good faith paid editors; it is one of the things that pretty much every signatory to the Statement on Wikipedia from participating communications firms does already. This is already a good "white hat" practice and one that should be propagated and made policy. (I could actually see some people objecting to this on the theory that it is on-project advertising, and am somewhat surprised that no one has said this). But bottom line is that multiple good things flow from this, and it is not an unreasonable burden to place on people who want to make money in the real world by exploiting the value (eyeballs) that the volunteer community has created.
    To be clear the multiple good things are:
    For consumers, they will be better to able to differentiate "white hat" paid editors who actually follow the ToU from "black hat" paid editors who don't
    For marketplaces like Upworks, the management of which would like to avoid enabling people to violate our policies, it gives them something actionable to work with
    For good faith paid editors it helps differentiate them from blackhat paid editors, increasing the benefits of following policy and levelling the playing field with those who cheat
    For WMF communities it will enable editors to better monitor good faith, policy compliant paid editing and shut down "black hat" paid editors.
    --Jytdog (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  48. Support Support Cedalyon (talk) 18:59, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  1. I would support if it were stated to be not retrospectively applied, be time-limited and inapplicable to clean-start users who have made good faith attempts to comply with policy. It seems unfair to force a user to forever declare themselves as a paid editor and link to their "corporate" accounts if they happen to have been employed to do so years ago; we do not require ex-WMF employees to do this. I suggest there is a reasonable time-limit of one year after paid edits have ceased. --Fæ (talk) 15:58, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Fæ this is for people still involved in paid editing. If a person is no longer involved in paid editing than they should not have accounts on Upworks / Fiver still offering to do paid editing of Wikipedia should they? Does adding "active" address your concern?
    Also this is about linking to "Accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing". Most corporate account will not fit this description. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:01, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    It's too implicit. Paid editors need to remain responsible for their contributions for a relevant period, not "vanish", shuttle between apparently unrelated non-paid and paid accounts, or be allowed to pretend it never happened 5 seconds after their last paid edit. If that were allowed, then regularly contracting paid editors could refuse to make any public statement between periods of engagement, even if for the same employer. Anyway, something to sort out the details in the Comments section if a further rewriting is being suggested. --Fæ (talk) 16:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I am not sure I understand your concern. What is too implicit? This is only putting in place the requirement to interlink accounts that are currently involved in paid editing to prevent impersonation of Wikipedians. It means that if one puts up an adverts that says "I am Fae and I will write article for you for 1000USD", if the Wikipedia account of Fae does not link to that advert, we can assume that advert is impersonating you and more easily request it be taken down. If someone was previously involved in paid editing and has removed all the adverts they had up than no linking is required per this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:26, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    "vanish", shuttle between apparently unrelated non-paid and paid accounts, or be allowed to pretend it never happened 5 seconds after their last paid edit - unfortunately, Fæ, this is precisely their MO. There's not much we can do about it except make more rules so when we find them being broken we can react better. Kudpung (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks James, Kudpung, I know you both and respect your views, so would swap to neutral if the vast majority of votes were not supports. However, the proposal does not actually say what James says here, nor would its implementation resolve the other issues that Kudpung alludes to. I'm also concerned that virtually the only real project that gets targeted this way is the English Wikipedia, and having this vote on meta seems misplaced. A better starting point would have been to establish an English Wikipedia consensus, then make a global one later when the knots were teased out. Oh, and I'm sure you've thought about this, but being paid while misrepresenting your identity as someone else is identity theft and is covered by the law in all countries where paid editors are likely to receive their money. If the WMF or someone else were really serious about this, go sue someone as an example and to get plenty of positive press attention. --Fæ (talk) 13:56, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure suing people is the best way forwards. Often the accounts on Upworks do not have any clear identity attached to them. And why would they give us at the WMF private data? Additionally often these folks are overseas. Not sure this is a great use of funds when we can just assume that account are unconnected unless the person in question explicitly connects them. Just because something is the "law" in some country does not mean the legal system is particularly interested in perusing enforcement of said law. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:43, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose Oppose This will only lead to wild goose hunts with nearly no real benefit. Problem no 1 is that you have no way to verify that two accounts on two different systems is controlled by the same person. Not even if the two accounts seemingly is involved in editing the same article, and not even if they seems to have the same user name. You must start with creating systems that allow identification and tracking of users, and as of now no such systems exists on Wikipedia. The only outcome of the proposal would be stalking and alienating users. It is quite frankly, not a good idea. — Jeblad 23:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you are misreading what is being proposed. Let says a Fivver account is claiming to be you and offering to edit Wikipedia for pay. Yet you have not linked to that Fivver account on your Wikipedia user page. With this proposal we can ask Fivver to take down that account more easily and thus prevent the impersonation of you. P.S. both we and Fivver have policies against impersonation. For those involved with paid editing our TOU already require that they list the intermediaries through which they work, so nothing changing there. We are not trying to verify that "two accounts on two different systems are controlled by the same person" only the person who controls those two accounts can do that.
    Impersonating other people is a big issue, not a minor one as you try to make out. It is a form of harassing long term editors and drives volunteers away. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:27, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    You can reformulate this as impersonating someone, but it is still the same – only worse. The proposal would then be to make claims about impersonations done on an external site, with no real evidence. — Jeblad 01:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose Oppose Gordo (talk) 07:41, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose Oppose I'm regretfully opposing this for now because there was a very similar proposal made within the last 12 months on en.wiki to require paid editors to disclose their accounts on other sites that was rejected by the community. Unfortunately I am unable to recall where the discussion was, and until I can review that, I can't support a proposal that is using what in my experience is a rare occurence (impersonation) to force all paid editors to link to their accounts on other sites. Once the discussion can be found and opponents have been made aware of this then I would be happy to reconsider. Smartse (talk) 12:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Have looked and been unable to find it either. If anyone can link to any prior discussions that would be appreciated. Have already posted notes about this RfC to wikimedia-l and the EN village pump. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:24, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    User:Smartse have found the prior discussion here. User:TParis commented. Legal (User:Slaporte (WMF)) also said "On my work with the Wikimedia legal team, we have found a few platforms that are quick to remove posts that violate their terms of use. The terms of use for Fiverr, for example, say that they may remove Gigs that violate a third party's terms of service (eg, they will rove Gigs that violate Twitter or Facebook's rules, and could do the same for Gigs that violate a Wikipedia policy). These sort of policies may have some variability from site to site, but it's helpful from my perspective to have clear and simple written rules, even where it may not be guaranteed to be enforced 100% of the time"Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:19, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose Oppose Unworkable in practice; and unlikely to have the effect of aiding "take down" actions that is claimed. This specific proposal is badly worded, and over-reaching, as discussed below. Likely to be harmful to, for example, Wikimedians in Residence (such as myself). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:20, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    How would it harm WiRs? Do you know of any who offer to edit Wikipedia's articles for pay on Upworks while trying to hide the Wikipedia account they are using? Most WiR are above board and closely follow the rules.
    This will actually help honest WiRs who do follow the rules as it will hopefully cut down on "black hat" editors. It will help people who want to hire a WiR not be mislead. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:36, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The Foundation has also made it clear that most of the work done through GLAM and Wikipedian in Residence are not considered paid conflicts of interest. Mkdw (talk) 21:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    consider the chilling effects of incidents such as this one [2] i have had to wiki-splain to a GLAM what is up with this COI questioning by editors less reasonable than you. need to consider how the tools will be used and abused. Slowking4 (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    WiRs, from institutions that share our goals, are not paid editors per our TOU. The accusations in that case were inappropriate and I said as much. Just because we allow, and in fact welcome, disclosed WiR does not mean we must allowed undisclosed paid promotional editing by banned accounts pretending to be users in good standing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose Oppose This asks editors to link to personal information contained in their CVs, which are typically included in their job profiles, and goes beyond what is expected by the disclosure requirements. To meet the current requirements, editors need to provide their employer and client. To meet this, editors will be linking to their online job histories, (whether it is related to Wikipedia or not), real names, photos, employment histories and locations of residence. This degree of self-outing is substantially more than currently required, and more than the community has ever supported. - Bilby (talk) 17:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Oppose Oppose As unworkable and unenforceable. Furthermore, I oppose the manipulative attempts to undermine local enwiki consensus by abusing the Meta processes, where less enwiki attention lies, to force policy on enwiki. Why is it always the COI warriors here abusing this process? Why does their inability to gain local consensus never satisfy them? I retract that comment, Doc is not one of the typical 'warriors'.--TParis (talk) 20:08, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Oppose Oppose Their right for privacy outweighs our desire to snoop around on the internet. Just let the WMF handle paid editing initiatives. And what about projects that do allow paid editing without disclosure? Natuur12 (talk) 22:16, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Already specific for Wikipedia and thus does not include Commons. Which other projects were you thinking of? By the way this RfC is about supporting the WMF in handling paid editing initiatives and this proposal has been discussed with legal already. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:20, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Oppose Oppose Citation: We commonly see paid editors pretending to be established Wikipedians such as here. The link does not work and the proposer did not disclose the dimension of the problem. Commonly means nothing. I cannot understand that the described situation - someone creates a fake account elsewhere and asks for cash - requires a policy that forces all paid editors to disclose their accounts on other platforms. If you find someone pretending to be User:Cimbail and asking for cash, just leave a message on my discussion page. If I don't see your post for months, this would be my problem. After all, I would be the person "impersonated". And, by the way, I don't see any problem with paid editing, unless the paid author breaks the rules, does something that is verboten, or runs into a conflict of interests. Most paid editors won't bomb their business with POV-pushing, religious or political weirdness, edit wars or personal attacks. And they have to write good articles, or their business will fail. --Cimbail (talk) 23:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    "And they have to write good articles, or their business will fail." Don't you mean: "they have to write articles that will satisfy their client"? This is the goal of a paid editing activity, don't forget it. (While the goal is, for volunteers, to write an encyclopedia, following the 5 pillars.) Jules78120 (talk) 00:01, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Their "job" is often to get a non notable / barely notable and promotional article through all our checks and balances. They unfortunately succeed a lot. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:14, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    (1) As for now, I still have not enough information about the extent of the problem. I am not prepared to support a requirement that forces a considerable number of honest contributors to disclose personal information, to kick out a very limited number of foul players. And it is indeed personal information, as those paid editors usually don't run big businesses. (2) OK, with yesterdays edit I had the paid writer for a multi-billion-dollar fortune in mind, who is indeed required to write high-quality articles. The community would rapidly stop any misinformation in high-profile articles. As far as the less important stuff is concerned, I am convinced the community will discover any false information and correct it - sooner or later. Any promotional bullshit is at permanent risk of being deleted or turned into the opposite. That will not protect us against every author disrespecting our goals. But, again, I can not see a dimension of the problem that justifies the proposal in question. (3) Well, some of the links provided here lead to closed Upworks pages. Seems closing down these pages was possible without the proposed rules. (4) The proposal is about non notable / barely notable and promotional articles? OK, just strictly enforce our citation requirements: no edits might be saved without proper citation. This would greatly reduce the problem, and it would give an overall boost to Wikipedia's quality. --Cimbail (talk) 17:14, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    On EN WP the estimate of the number of articles involved is in the 100,000s. With respect to check user cases, some have estimated that over half are related to undisclosed paid editing cases. The COI notice board is very active. We have a couple of dozen active companies involved specifically in paid editing of Wikipedia with many having multiple staff.[3] So a substantial issue.
    You claim "a considerable number of honest contributors". I have only come across a handful while I have come across 1000s of dishonest accounts. Can you provide evidence for your statement. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:40, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Oppose Oppose Requiring users who post a paid editing advert claiming they are editor X to verify they are indeed editor X makes sense. The proposal, as currently worded, goes further and requires paid editors who wouldn't want to identify themselves to link their accounts. That seems unjustified. (And also unenforcable.) --Tgr (talk) 03:05, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    So how would you achieve "requiring users who post a paid editing advert claiming they are editor X to verify they are indeed editor X" And what about those who claim they are Wikipedians in good standing when they are not? Legal at the WMF believes this will help with enforcement. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:09, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Oppose Oppose The proposal is badly worded. There are concerns about it not working as meant and I cannot easily verify the effects. --LPfi (talk) 07:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Oppose Oppose potentially privacy problems. Mathis B (talk) 09:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mathis B: Hey! Which ones? Everybody is free to participate to Wikipedia as a volunteer, anonymously. If people want to do paid editions AND to advertise it saying they are Wikipedians, it's their problem, and no one forces them to put personal information online (where they are advertising their business). Jules78120 (talk) 10:57, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jules78120: I agree on the form, but it can be a problem for independant contractors who have their personnal adress and phone number public on websites like societe.com. Mathis B (talk) 11:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, I understand. But as I said, imho, it's their problem. We guarantee people that volunteers (people who are on Wikipedia to improve it, not to make money and satisfy a client) can be anonymous, that's all. Furthemore, if their personnal adress or phone number are already public and linked to their "advertising profile", it's not because of Wikipedia, and these information are already available. Jules78120 (talk) 11:22, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Strong oppose Goodwill edits highlight and expand topics required by society on its current development level, instead, you will advocate lots of promo-trash on pages. Also, be ready to forget Google top ranking. Let it be undercover with speed deletion of promo-trash, leaving pr-agencies de jure aside. Alex Khimich (talk) 09:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Assuming you're not so comfortable with English, would you wish to elaborate? I read your !vote for long but that precisely made nil sense! Regards:)Godric on Leave (talk) 13:38, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Mechanisms to deal with COI / ghostwriting / etc are one of the requirements of being a high quality source. If we do not deal with this problem we should and likely will have our reputation harmed and thus could lose some of our google ranking. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  14. Oppose Oppose TZivyA (talk) 10:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Oppose Oppose paranoid witchhunt. Marcus Cyron (talk) 12:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  16. Oppose Oppose Not Wikipedia's business. That site is the one who needs to add link to wikipedia user page not wikipedia because all doubtful actions are on their side. --Igel B TyMaHe (talk) 14:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  17. Oppose Oppose Too many unnecessary rules wil kill Wiki Sg7438 (talk) 14:32, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  18. Oppose Oppose Policy on conflict of interest differs considerably between projects (Wikipedia editions). The proposal may be suitable for English Wikipedia – i don't know since I don't contribute to English Wikipedia – but clearly not for all Wikipedias. Unsigned by User:NH
  19. Oppose Oppose I don't think the proposal is relevant to the problem. The problem announced here is that there are some people impersonating active users when advertising paid editing. The relevant solution would be: 1) asking these users to confirm (remember good old days when you were asked to confirm that the Meta account really belongs to you?) 2) asking to take down the ad if it is an impersonation indeed. The proposed solution actually means that we want people disclose their paid editing even if done from a completely separate account, which should be managed by local rules like w:en:WP:SOCK — NickK (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  20. Oppose Oppose Too many unnecessary rules will kill Wiki and not necessary/relevant for our small version.Yger (talk) 16:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  21. Oppose Oppose This proposal won't fix anything (as explained above), and will penalize honest paid editors (sometimes seasoned wikipedians) doing a good job improving articles following Wikipedia rules. I'm sorry, but seasoned Wikipedia editors can potentially be a big help for helping any companies, non-profit organizations, individuals, or entities improve articles on a given topic, by following the standards of Wikipedia (and the fact they're paid doesn't really matter from a content's quality point-of-view). We get it all wrong here, from the beginning. --Deansfa (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

[4] I didn't know it was this blatant (in terms of selling their services/souls if they have any)...agree w/ above proposal--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:30, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That page used to say that "Andrew C." was an admin. There is an editor here who used to be an admin by that name but I think this upworks account is just impersonating the person as they say this is not them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This should be an RFC, not a Meta RFC, no? --MF-W 14:17, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Excellent point and will move. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:40, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The first of your two examples is a dead account; the second is a sign-in page. {also, to emit valid and accessible HTML markup, please only indent your first reply, to any uninedented comment, with one colon]. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah cool. Good to see upworks finally took down the account that appears to have been pretending to be an admin on EN WP. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does interlinking mean exactly? Can you show us an example of a profile which is interlinked in this manner? Gamaliel (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • On first reading this seems to say that they link in the advertisement to their user page here. While the current wording might do it, if there are other concerns about wording, I'll suggest:

In order to enforce the Terms of Use prohibition on impersonation, we require those involved with paid editing on any WMF project to link on their user page to all active accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing services, or use to respond to such ads. In the ads themselves, and in responses to such ads, the editor should link to his user page on the WMF project where he is most active.

Note that this is not regulating the content of other websites, only regulating the actions of Wiki users who wish to make paid edits here. Smallbones (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would be happy with that wording aswell. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:41, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
James, would you be open to wording that takes into account that some local projects do not require disclosure of paid status (Commons for one). Perhaps something like On projects where disclosure of paid status is required to comply with the terms of use. might fix it. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:16, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Commons TOU redirects to the meta TOU.[5] Were does it say that commons does not require disclosure of paid editing? We still want to prevent impersonation of commons editors. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:44, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Commons has a alternate disclosure policy at commons:Commons:Paid contribution disclosure policy it is listed at Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While we do say "on Wikipedia" and Commons is not a Wikipedia. While Commons has a policy on disclosure not being needed for paid editors I would imagine they would be against impersonation. But agree at this point we should leave them out. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:03, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For the moment, The Wikimedia Commons community does not require any disclosure of paid contributions from its contributors. But that may change in the future now that the Wikipedia community is waking up to the problems caused by undisclosed paid editing. Wikimedia Commons could, for example, just require disclosure and set no other restrictions. We should start with Wikipedia and remain flexible enough so that other projects can jump on the band wagon at any time. GastelEtzwane (talk) 21:55, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but this would be a global policy. I'm all for stricter policies on paid editing, but we shouldn't be writing a global policy only for Wikipedias. Keeping it broad by making it apply to all WMF wikis that require disclosure would make it so that if Commons decided to require disclosure in the future, they would automatically have this policy if they made the switch. I think that is a positive thing that also allows local communities to decide how to deal with this issue if they want to. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Foundation itself are using Upwork. How do you plan to handle that? How do you plan to verify that some people have a legitimate use of an account on Upwork? How will you try to figure out who do paid editing and who tries to help people? How do you plan to connect an user account "wild-rabits" on Wikipedia with an account on Upwork? Are you Harry Potter with a magic crystal ball? Yes I see the problem with Upwork, there are a lot of people there crying about help with their pages. Rather than going after those that help them at Upwork, try to make a working community at Wikipedia that help them! — Jeblad 00:06, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
They are NOT offering to edit Wikipedia for pay. Two things are required (1) The account on Upworks needs to be offering to edit Wikipedia for pay (2) There needs to be no link from WP to the Upwork account in question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:30, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How shall you be able to connect the dots? How shall anyone at Wikipedia be able to make such a claim on another site? It is not illegal to say that someone do some kind of work, but by your proposal someone shall make claims about impersonations at Upwork because the page at Upwork say they are wikipedians? If I say I am "Doc James" then I impersonates you. I do not impersonate you by saying I am a doctor. — Jeblad 01:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is it illegal to pretend one is someone else? I am not sure but regardless it is against our terms of use. People are claiming that they are specific Wikipedians not just generic Wikipedian. They also claim they are Wikipedians in good standing when they are not and thus misleading their customers. We get a lot of complaints about this via OTRS. This is like people pretending they are medical doctors when they are not (that I do know is illegal by the way). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:35, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(aside) It is illegal to take money under false pretenses, e.g. a false name. It's called fraud. Of course, if you can deliver on *all* your promises, nobody might care what your name is. As a practical matter, almost all undeclared paid editors are claiming to do something that they can't do - create or edit an article according to our rules. Smallbones (talk) 04:07, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to prove it wrong that anybody can create an account and start editing at Wikipedia. — Jeblad 13:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not illegal to pretend you are neither doctor or medical doctor. Both are illegal in some jurisdictions. The world is slightly bigger than wherever you are at any given time. To many errors, I will not waste more time on this. — Jeblad 01:48, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't an user being impersonated just request the other account to be taken down himself if they use their username? Amqui (talk) 03:09, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Often sites like Fivver want proof that the account on their system is impersonating you. Or what if the account is impersonating a no longer active admin (which we have had)? Most people do not know how to determine if a WP account is active or not. It took a few years of reporting to get Upworks to take down an account impersonating a mostly retired admin. With this I will be able to say "this admin account did not link to this Upworks account offering to edit Wikipedia for pay, as we require this this account is impersonating this person and in breach of both of our rules" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:17, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How is a user even supposed to know if he's being impersonated? Kudpung (talk) 11:06, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that is another issue. If I came across someone impersonating you and you do not have email turned I, I used to have no way of letting you know. Know we explicitly allow the posting of job ads so things are better. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:39, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Upwork profile linked above is set to private so I don't see much information besides a name, a title "Senior Wiki Editor", a requested pay of 50$/h a location and this Youtube video. So, I don't see any claim that this person is claiming to be a specific Wikipedian. Maybe there is a screenshot documenting that? Could you share it? --CristianCantoro (talk) 11:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The other profile of someone impersonating a retired admin has finally been taken down after a number of reports (more than three) over a few years. The take down was in the last few days. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Doc James: Can you provide more details on opening up official channels to deal with this through Upwork that you eluded to here. That would appear to be a considerably more precise route to deal with the problem of impersonation and if they are happy to work with us, we wouldn't need this proposal in the first place. Obviously there are the other sites, but I think upwork is our main source of problems. If sites are completely unreceptive to us reporting problematic users then this proposal would also be unenforceable. Smartse (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have a lot of time for people trying to stop paid editing. But this makes it nearly impossible for anyone to try and engage in paid editing while still meeting the rules. This is not simply a request to link off-wiki accounts to on-wiki, but to link personal information, including real names, occupations, education and biographies, to on-wiki accounts. This was not the intent of the changes of the ToU, and goes far further than anything that has been supported on en.wiki in the past. We don't even ask this of checkusers or arbcom members.

I am not aware of more than a couple of current en-wiki paid editors who operate within the ToU. We've created an environment where it is far easier and more effective to ignore the ToU in order to engage in paid editing, and almost every editor that I've seen who tried to follow the terms has ended up surrendering and just ignoring the rules. Almost none of them stopped paid editing - they just stopped editing openly. Adding a burden this great on paid editors who want to follow the rules will almost certainly ensure that the only paid editors we have will be those that either are new, and therefore don't know what to do, or those that are choosing to hide what they do. We won't stop paid editing, but we will stop people from doing so openly, making it very difficult to manage the problem. - Bilby (talk) 08:00, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bilby, you should try spending an hour or two at NPP. Those who do it openly are only the tip of a large iceberg. Probably 99% of it is underground anyway. At least 20% of the new articles which are so correct we can't delete, have all the hallmarks of paid (or salaried) editing. The only way to stop it would be to ban it altogether and be more systematic in sorting those obvious paid pages. Unfortunately, paid editors of the kind who advertise their services or subscribe to job agencies have exploited our 'declared paid editing policy' to be a licence to practice - like having passed a bar exam or putting the yearly state road tax sticker on the car windshield. Kudpung (talk) 08:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The community has never supported a total ban on paid editing - there was so much reluctance to provide any limitation, that it took an RFC off en.wiki to get any action through with the disclosure requirements. But even if they did, banning all paid editing doesn't help - all it does it make it invisible. We cannot stop paid editing, as the desire for companies and others to have pages is too great, and they'll keep paying people to do it whatever happens. We should be trying to manage the process, not ban it, but the environment we've created makes that incredibly difficult. Placing nigh-impossible demands on those who try to engage under our rules only makes it that much easier for those who refuse to follow the rules to profit. Which is why we're in the current position - as you say, 99% is underground, but killing the last vestiges of editors willing to meet the disclosure requirements will only have the effect of making 100% underground, most of which will continue to be undetectable. What we need is to make disclosure and editing within our rules more appealing rather than less. - Bilby (talk) 09:19, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you'll never get paid editing banned completely - every RfC is populated by hundreds of paid editors and others who don't seem to mind dedicating their free time so that others can make money out of it. A few more years and it will be all paid editors masquerading as volunteers. It's happening already (proven) - some of them have got Autopatroled and New Page Reviewer rights, and even OTRS access. We don't know the names of the admins - yet. Kudpung (talk) 09:29, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Which is my point. If you can't stop it, you need to focus on management. We're going the other way - neither stopping it, nor managing it, but making it progressively harder for editors to edit for pay in an ethical and open manner, and making it substantially more effective and rewarding to engage in undisclosed, hidden and unethical paid editing. - Bilby (talk) 11:27, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And this is about managing it. This will also result in removing some of those who do not disclose to make it more worth will to disclose. By the way you do not seriously think that most of the details on sites like Upworks are true do you? People make much of it up. Some use real names but they are no their own, same with pictures, etc. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:03, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bilby, as Doc James says, this is about managing it. But perhaps not in the way you would prefer - FWIW there are no ethics or deontological honesty whatsoever in people exploiting for money a project that has been built on good will and voluntary work by others. Kudpung (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Doc James, the sort of person who writes a fake profile on Upwork is not the sort of person willing to disclose on Wikipedia. This targets those willing to do the right thing, and will have almost no effect on those who aren't. What it will do is force those people engaged in paid editing openly to publicly reveal more personal details than we ask any other editor to reveal, no matter what their responsibilities on Wikipedia are. We will demand more of them than Checkusers, OTRS, Arbcom, or pretty much any editor. And in return they get to have their edits targeted. Why do you think this is more appealing than simply using socks and never disclosing that you are being paid? Given a choice between revealing personal information and opening yourself up as a target, and just using throwaway accounts, the throwaway accounts is the far more profitable stance.
Kudpung, this is why we can't manage paid editors - the idea that there is no means through which they can act ethically on Wikipedia forces them to engage in deceit, rather than trying to act within policy. But whatever your views, those do not match the consensus on Wikipedia. - Bilby (talk) 12:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But they are the type of person who is happy to impersonate an established Wikipedia, which from my experience make up a significant proportion of undisclosed paid editors. Once again we are talking about preventing harassment of established Wikipedia and improving the situation for those who disclose paid editing (by limiting their unethical colleagues). If we do nothing about "non disclose" why would those on the ethical edge disclose? I think we can all agree that asking nicely has not worked.
With respect to personal information on Upworks, it appears you have not looked much at that website. There is very very little personal information about those buying and selling jobs. Typically no more than one finds on Wikipedia. People do not say who they are, just what they are willing to do (like edit Wikipedia for pay). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:00, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are asking all paid editors to link to their profiles. Those who are impersonating established editors won't be the ones outing themselves by providing the links. Those willing to try and work within policy will be the ones forced to reveal their personal details. The only outcome of this proposal will be to further reduce the percentage of paid editors willing to try and work within policy.
As to the personal information, surely you know better than that. A typical Upwork profile contains the person's real name, photo, region (city and country) where they live, a short biography, education levels and where they attended, employment history and any other experience, along with a link to every Upwork job they have ever taken. This is not "very little personal information", and is certainly more than what one finds on Wikipedia. I'm not sure why you would say otherwise, especially given that you've seen these profiles before. - Bilby (talk) 13:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is typically little to no personal data on Upworks. This will allow us to have the impersonators accounts removed. This will give a significant boost to those willing to work within policy as their accounts will remain on Upworks while those who do not will likely be removed or will need to hide the type of work they do.
There is no evidence that these are peoples actual pictures, there is no evidence they are from were they say they are. All that is likely true is that they will do Wikipedia editing and that is all those who hire them care about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:32, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
a) Your statement "there is typically little to no personal data on Upworks" is clearly false. If nothing else, a person's real name, photo and location is far more than what we ask editors to publicly reveal on en.wiki, and that is the minimum people include in their Upwork bios. You must be aware of this, so I don't know why you are saying otherwise. In fact, on en.wiki, we specifically recommend that editors "consider carefully before creating an account in your real name or a nickname which might be traced to you, as these increase the potential for harassment, especially if you edit in controversial subject areas".
b) You are missing my point. You are asking for all paid editors to link to their details off-wiki. Yes, those impersonating established editors (although I'm not sure what you regard as impersonation) will have fake information. However, those people will not be providing a link, for obvious reasons. Those who are editing in good faith, though, and are trying to edit within policy, will also be asked to provide a link to their details. Those people are not impersonating other people (or they wouldn't provide the link), and therefore will be linking to genuine information about themselves. You will force those who are trying to edit within policy to out themselves. - Bilby (talk) 14:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As appears to be usual we disagree. Paid editors are already required follow the TOU. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:44, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they are required to follow the ToU. I've never said otherwise. - Bilby (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you oppose this idea, what measures would you support to enforce the TOU? Or are you against any measure to enforce the TOU? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Impersonating users, fix the problem the right way

It is said several times that this is about users being impersonated on external sites. Groups can't be "impersonated", only persons can. That imply that all arguments about external users saying they are "wikipedians" is not enough, the external users must make active attempts to masquerade as a real user on Wikipedia. It is possible to impersonate a user on Wikipedia because the authenticity of a user on Wikimedia is too weak. We don't solve that by creating rules we can't enforce, we solve that by creating systems that makes it possible to authorize external accounts. In particular, dead accounts should be marked as such, and it should not be possible to use them for authorization of external accounts. Marking of dead accounts should kick in after a month or two, make it longer if necessary, and should strip the account of all elevated rights.

Note that proper authentication and authorization against external sites would imply a much broader discussion, and that it would not necessarily imply public disclosure of private information. You can be authenticated without being identified, but you can't be identified without being authenticated. A discussion about trustworthy disclosure of information will also be necessary, especially information that leads to identifiable information about a person being disclosed, but without even a working concept of what a user constitutes on WMF-sites it will be difficult.

As this RfC stands I can't support it. Do the right thing, don't create a mess. — Jeblad 16:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Individuals are also being impersonated. But agree most of it is misrepresentation. We do not allow non physicians to pretend they are physicians in nearly all jurisdictions globally. We as Wikipedians in good standing also do not want those not in good standing to pretend they are us as it tarnishes our reputation. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:59, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Question. Mr. Bad advertizes his services somewhere and asserts he is, in fact, Doc James. Then ... what? Retired electrician (talk) 22:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone who comes across the ad can check my user page, see that a link to the ad is not listed, and request that the hoster of the ad remove it (with legal at the WMF cc'ed). One of the biggest market places (Upworks) is already willing to work with us on this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:13, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible for someone to transcribe the relevant content of the Upwork profile referred to in the statement of issue? It's required to have an account in Upwork to be able to access the page, and I just don't feel like having to create an account just to get a better context of what we're talking about. Thanks. Sabbut (talk) 06:34, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What happens next?

Though it might still be too early to say, this looks like it will pass. Could somebody review the procedures on Meta to say how it will be closed and when. Then what happens if it is passed? Will it have its own page linked somewhere under policy? Will we be able to tweak that page without restating the whole thing on a new RfC? (Of course there will be a new RfC, but how can changes be made?)

It's clear that this will apply to all paid editors on WMF projects under the ToU, but how will it affect the projects? Do they enforce this or does some global bureaucrat enforce it? It does look like it's mostly self-enforcing or enforced by the ad sites themselves. But say we find that there is no link on any Wiki to the ad site, who informs them? And if the ad site doesn't remove the offending account - is there anything we can do?

I'm not saying we need a specific enforcement provision built into this, just "How are these things usually handled on Meta?"

Pinging @Doc James and MF-Warburg: (MFW simply because he made a good technical suggestion above regarding Meta's rules) Smallbones (talk) 17:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Needs to be open at least a week. Will get further input from legal once closed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In regard to the legal issue, how does this relate to the current privacy policy, as this will require some editors to provide personal information in order to contribute? - Bilby (talk) 01:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No one is forcing anyone to do paid editing. Simple solution, stop editing for pay if you do not want to have to disclose editing for pay. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:45, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This change will require people who wish to engage in editing for pay - which is a permitted behaviour so long as they disclose - to publicly provide personal information in order to edit. I would like to know if that is compatible with the privacy policy, as currently we state that people do not need to provide personal information in order to contribute to Wikipedia and the Free Knowledge movement. I think it is a fair question. How about we just see where it sits? - Bilby (talk) 03:02, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are requesting an opinion from the legal team? Contributing to Wikipedia in exchange for money, however, is not a guaranteed right. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am not saying that it is a guaranteed right, and yes, I'm asking for an opinion regarding how this works with the existing policy. What I am saying is that we have never, at any time, insisted that any editor publicly link to personal information about themselves in order to contribute to Wikipedia. If this change is accepted, it will be the first time we have ever asked that of an editor. Given that we've always said that editors do not need to provide personal information in order to contribute, and given that we even explicitly recommend that they do not do so, I'd like very much to know how this sits with the current privacy policy. - Bilby (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While they can simply not edit for pay. And not advertise editing for pay. Than no personal / professional data or otherwise required. But lets see what legal says. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:06, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) "This Privacy Policy only covers the way the WMF collects and handles information." The WMF would not be collecting the information linked to by the paid editor, nor would the WMF be releasing it to anybody. Also the privacy policy is about non-public information collected by the WMF. This proposal is about public information voluntarily posted by paid editors on another website. If the paid editor is afraid that the information he is publicly making available on the other website should not be generally available, then all he needs to do is remove some of the information he publicly posts on the other website. In short our privacy policy has nothing to do with information publicly posted voluntarily on other websites by paid editors which is not collected by the WMF. Please read the privacy policy before you invoke it Smallbones (talk) 04:21, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From the privacy policy:
"We believe that you shouldn't have to provide personal information to participate in the free knowledge movement. You do not have to provide things like your real name, address, or date of birth to sign up for a standard account or contribute content to the Wikimedia Sites." [6]]
Please read the privacy policy before accusing me of not reading it. :) Bilby (talk) - 04:36, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Immediately above the section you quote and in the same box is
"This is a summary of the Privacy Policy. To read the full terms, click here.
Disclaimer: This summary is not a part of the Privacy Policy and is not a legal document. It is simply a handy reference for understanding the full Privacy Policy. Think of it as the user-friendly interface to our Privacy Policy."
And of course the current proposal does not require anybody to provide "your real name, address, or date of birth"
You should read the section What This Privacy Policy Does & Doesn't Cover thoroughly. Smallbones (talk) 13:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I quoted the relevant section. It isn't part of the summary. It states that users do not have to provide their real name, address or date of birth to contribute to Wikipedia. This proposal will change that, by requiring some editors - those who are being paid - to link to personal identifying information about themselves which will include their real name and where they live. It places a new burden on them which does not apply to anyone else who is contributing to Wikipedia. This may be fine with the existing policy. But I think that it makes sense for this to be clarified.
Personally, I would like to fight paid editing without sacrificing core principles of Wikipedia. But I understand and respect that there are those who disagree with me. Either way, it seems very reasonable to clarify that this sort of change is acceptable under policy. - Bilby (talk) 13:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And of course the current proposal does not require anybody to provide "your real name, address, or date of birth". We should just ping @Slaporte (WMF): and he can tell us if it violates WMF's privacy policy. I can imagine that it might possibly be the case that WMF legal would not want to comment until they see the final policy. In that unlikely case, should we agree that we'll both just formally ask WMF legal to provide an opinion then? And, of course we should wait, say two weeks after the proposal is passed, to actually implement this to make sure that the advertising paid editors have a chance to know what is being required of them. We would have to publicize it widely of course.
I'll add that this is the type of information that is already required through the ToU paid editing section as an "affiliation" though that requirement is not clearly understood by paid editors (that's obvious because none of them that I know of declare affiliations). An affiliation is not exactly an employer or a client, but is closely related. The ad sites are how the editors make contact with their employers or clients. The ad sites don't actually legally pay the editor, but they do in most cases make some sort of guarantee or promise to take steps if the editor is not paid. In some case, if I remember correctly, they actually process or monitor the payment. We might as well ask WMF legal if this situation fits the ToU definition of "affiliation", but I'm sure it does. Smallbones (talk) 15:18, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In some case, if I remember correctly, they actually process or monitor the payment -- Yes: Upwork, for instance, requires all payments to go through their payment processing system. This is strictly enforced. They only release the money to the freelancer several days to a week after the client has marked the job as completed. Moreover, a freelancer cannot legally work off-platform with a client they found through Upwork (for the first 24 months) without paying an opt-out fee. Rentier (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and if they are acting as a go-between between the editor and employer/client, or taking on part of the role of the employer (like paying the employee), then they are clearly an affiliation, if not technically the employer or client. Smallbones (talk) 20:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The proposed requirement is that they "link on their user page to all other active accounts through which they advertise paid Wikipedia editing business". The focus here is Upwork. Linking to their Upwork account will link to:
  • Their real name
  • A photo
  • The area (city and country) that they live
In addition, this will typically include:
  • Employment history
  • Education history, including institutions
This is not the same as revealing how they are affiliated with the client, that they were paid through Upwork, who the client is, or who their employer is. This goes substantially further by linking to personal information about the editor. We do not ask this of any other editor in order for them to contribute. In fact, we specifically state that editors do not need to provide this information under policy, and specifically recommend that they do not provide this in order to avoid potential harassment. Accordingly, I would like to know if requiring people to link to this information in order to contribute would be a violation of the privacy policy. - Bilby (talk) 23:33, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not exaggerate. The employment history, the education history and the last name can always be hidden by the freelancer, and it's possible to get away without a photo in the profile. Which leaves the first name, the first letter of the last name, the city and the country, which are only visible to registered Upwork users after signing in. Rentier (talk) 00:03, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm listing what is typically provided, and what we will be asking that they link to. In some cases they provide less than that - a partial real name and the region they live in - but even the absolute minimum is less than what we ask editors to provide, and more than we recommend that they provide. - Bilby (talk) 00:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As an example, I am linking to three randomly selected profiles of Upwork workers - [7] [8] [9]. Each has a photo, partial or full name, short biography, employment history and education. These are the typical profiles that we would be asking people to link to in order to contribute. - Bilby (talk) 00:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Non of those are offering WP editing services for pay. So no none of them would be required to be linked to. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:25, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I chose them at random. They are typical profiles that we would require people to link to. - Bilby (talk) 00:55, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A profile with visibility set to private won't show up in the search results. If you search, you will only find profiles with everything displayed. Many have hidden profiles and only reply to ads. Rentier (talk) 00:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If the profile is invisible, this change in policy will not fix anything. If the profile is visible, the change in policy will require a link to their personal information. - Bilby (talk) 00:55, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Was this proposal already advertised widely? --MF-W 14:22, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not via that list. Has been distributed via Wikimedia-l. Can you take care of that MF-W Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:57, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, it has been a while since I last sent a massmessage and I currently lack the time to reacquaint myself with it. I only wanted to point out it out because I was pinged. --MF-W 01:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do I understand it right, is this RFC meant to be made effective on all projects? If yes, I strongly recommend to inform and include much more people, especially from non-english projects, than only the few interested readers on wikimedia-l. Alice Wiegand (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Lyzzy Just Wikipedias. Am working on the mass message to other languages. Message send. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:47, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
dewiki has got it and is quite neessary. -jkb- 21:27, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In Village Pump of nlwiki as well. Good point, Alice! Klaas `Z4␟` V:  04:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ich verstehe kein Wort, finde es aber prima, daß anscheinend und möglicherweise projektweit wirksame Änderungen zumindest im Hinterzimmer diskutiert werden. --smial (talk) 09:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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