In Reunited, Awards Insider hosts a conversation between two Emmy nominees who have collaborated on a previous project. Here, we speak with Hamilton star Daveed Diggs and Black-ish star and producer Tracee Ellis Ross, who previously worked together when Diggs guest-starred in several episodes of Black-ish.
Daveed Diggs was certain the Emmys had already happened—so certain, in fact, that he and his partner had booked a vacation for the day of the ceremony in September. It’s hard to blame him for losing track of time though. His Emmy nomination for his role as Marquis de Lafayette and Thomas Jefferson in Hamilton comes six years after the show first premiered on Broadway, and since that seismic breakthrough he’s been building a wide-ranging résumé in Hollywood, from a starring role on TNT’s Snowpiercer to executive producing the Starz adaptation of the film he wrote and starred in, Blindspotting.
That flourishing TV career all began, more or less, on Black-ish. In the fall of 2016, just after he wrapped his run in Hamilton, Diggs appeared on the ABC sitcom as Johan, the pretentious, yoga-loving brother of Tracee Ellis Ross’s Rainbow. “Johan is special,” Ross said in a recent Zoom reunion with Diggs. “He’s special, he’s very special,” Diggs said in agreement. “It fit like a glove.”
Ross, nominated this year for the fifth time for her performance as Rainbow, hinted that Johan might come back one more time in the final season of Black-ish, which is currently in production. And though Diggs and Ross are still hoping to see each other at the Emmys on September 19, for Vanity Fair they settled for a Zoom reunion. They reminisced about working together on Black-ish in the intense days after the 2016 election, reflected on their work as producers and opening doors for other storytellers in Hollywood, and why Hamilton now feels like a first grader who won the class citizenship award.
Vanity Fair: Can you guys tell me about when you first met? Was it on the set of Black-ish or before that?
Tracee Ellis Ross: Did we meet backstage at Hamilton?
Daveed Diggs: We must have, but I don’t remember most of that stuff. If I’m being honest, it was such a crazy time. So yeah, I’m sure we did then.
Ross: But I feel like we just did the obligatory—I was like, “thank you for being brilliant.” And you were like, “thank you for coming.”
Diggs: I’m sure I told you I was a huge fan of yours, because that’s true. I must have babbled something to you about The Lyricist Lounge. I don’t know if that was then or on the Black-ish set, but I’ve been a fan of yours for a very long time. And so I remember at some point feeling the need to just be like, just so you know, I know that you got bars, I watched you rap with Mos Def when he was up on a ledge and shit. Like I remember all that.
Ross: No, we actually had this conversation on Black-ish because I then told you the backstory on that, and the fact that it was so intense getting me to do those very, very limited amount of bars. And what Daveed does, he makes it look easy, but it is not. What these rappers and these lyricists and these artists do is not something that came naturally to my rhythmic talent. Yeah. So I remember, and by the way, I did not know who you were before going to the Broadway play, before going to see you on stage, but you are so dynamic, combined with the fact that we share the curly-hair family.
Diggs: Well, it’s funny when Kenya [Barris] was like, “so I have this idea. I’ve been thinking about you as Bow’s brother.” And I was just like, “look, you can stop right there. Yes, I want to do that.” I’ve been Team Rainbow on this show for so long. I feel like she’s always getting, people don’t really understand her like I understand her. But look, let me tell you what it’s like being a mixed kid from the Bay.
Ross: Yeah. It was such a natural fit. And then they made it so much better with the way they wrote you. Johan is special.
Diggs: He’s special. He’s very special. And it fit like a glove. Very little acting happening for me.
I wanted to ask about Johan, because he blows in from France, basically, which knowing that this was filming in the fall of 2016 or summer 2016 feels very Thomas Jefferson coming down the staircase. Was that how that character got that way?
Diggs: I would imagine. I don’t know. Nobody ever told me. I very much remember my first table read there and I was all nervous. There were so many people there, this is a trip for a table read. Many years later he told me, that was because you were there. That many people didn’t usually come. But everyone was so obsessed with Hamilton, that they just wanted to see you. And he was like, I got nervous because I actually had no reason to assume that you could do this. I had just seen you in a musical and then put you in my TV show.
Ross: Oh, my God. Kenya is such a monster for saying that to you. That’s not true, because that’s not what he told me. He was convinced, I remember when he called me after he saw it and he was like, I have the best idea.
And again, I’m telling you, when I saw you on stage—throughout my life, every once in a while you see people and you’re like, yeah, same tribe. You know what I mean? And usually the hair is the entrance into the indication. I’m like, we’re going to have definitely some things in common. And I want to know what product he uses, you know what I mean?
But our table reads, which we have completely lost in this pandemic, were these very special, extraordinary things. Yes, there were more people there for you, but you got to feel the chemistry of all of us. And so, yeah, I do remember that day though, because that was really serious.
Daveed’s run on it came in this crazy period of work post-Hamilton, and also during the 2016 election. What do you remember from all of that?
Ross: Whiplash. Devastation. A lot of fear. So funny, we were on the precipice of so much more. I don’t know, there was a lot of wake up happening. It’s an interesting time to be on a show like Black-ish where we’re so topical and we dive in on that stuff. It made me appreciate the ability to use a platform to keep bringing light into the world, and joy, and also still talking about things and unpacking them without having to decide somebody is wrong or right. But just being able to explore them in joyful environments.
Diggs: Yeah. That show is so great at that. And it’s funny, professionally for me at that time, I was doing a bunch of things and learning so much, it almost feels separate from my emotional, personal, political journey. I was just on airplanes and in places—
Ross: You were moving a lot.
Diggs: Right? Because I was also doing Kimmy Schmidt and I was just all over the place. And so all of that was going on and then also the world was falling apart, but it was nice to work. For me, work was a good distraction from that, I guess. The times when I was on Black-ish were like, oh, we get to be in the world and also still be working and having fun, because the show was so good at that. Whereas a lot of other things that I was working on were just jobs separate from the world.
Ross: Yeah, you were moving at that point. I remember that time period, but it was a treat not only to have Daveed onset, but also for my character to have an identification with something beyond Dre’s family. Because in the Black-ish world, Bow’s point of view is an outlier point of view. And so as Daveed said, right at the beginning, when we first came on, to have somebody that actually knows that experience, not just because it’s written, but lives it in a different way. It was a really nice experience, for me, and I think for my character, if I can speak for the both of us.
What’s the contrast between going from something like Hamilton to a TV show?
Diggs: I mean, for me it was just all about learning. I didn’t know anything really. I left Hamilton and the next weekend was shooting Wonder, and then I went from there to L.A. and shot Tour De Pharmacy. And literally, I shot that for three days, and the fourth day I was on Black-ish. Broadway or doing plays, it’s repetition. It’s the art of, the goal is to make it feel new every time, right? That’s the trick. Doing TV, it’s definitely brand new every time. You don’t have to work for that. You get that part for free.
The trick is playing the whole history of your relationships with all of these people as if they actually happened. But one of the great joys about being on Black-ish is just sitting around talking to everybody, soaking up game from Tracee or Anthony when he wasn’t talking shit about me, and Laurence—talking to Fish is my favorite stuff. I would just wait to find him sitting in a corner and just try to get him started.
Ross: Once you do though, you get some gems and pearls out of that man.
You guys have both moved on into more work creating and producing shows yourselves. Why is that the way forward for both of you?
Diggs: For me, it’s a continuation. I was always doing that, because no one wanted to make anything with me in it. And so we had to make it ourselves. But also, certain stories come your way that are, if you don’t tell them nobody’s going to. That’s actually the great part I’m finding about producing. It’s just that I get to help things exist because I want to watch them. I’m pretty self serving in a lot of ways.
Ross: I think I’ve always been producing. I think that I’ve always been that kind of actor. I always think of the whole thing. This is the beauty of what all of these different streaming platforms have offered, is that there is a democracy around, and a desire to keep filling our space with stories that represent the world we live in. And some of us, like Daveed and myself and Anthony, there are specific stories that we’re interested in telling. And you realize there’s a specific point of view that I want to share that is a gap in the world.
Does it feel like the industry is still moving in the right direction in terms of who gets to tell stories, like we are still opening up doors the way that we need to be?
Ross: I think for me, the biggest realization as I expand where my hands are in my career is the recognition that all aspects of this industry need fuller representation, all aspects. And that the pipeline is a little bit broken in terms of the standard that’s used to hire people in the executive positions, all these different places, that there needs to be real attention put there because without the conscious attention, it is not going to change. And that shift in equity around the table really needs absolute work.
And so that’s also one of the beauties of being in this position is that I’m now in a space where I am behind the scenes, and I can say, I’m sorry, how much is she getting paid? And how much is he getting paid? And what’s the difference? Well, that’s just the way it’s been. Huh?
I think that changes the dynamics, not only of the storytelling, but you look at the difference in the gaze that we’re looking through, through a camera lens, even changes how something looks and when you’re telling a story.
Diggs: That is so real, Tracee.
Ross: So real.
Diggs: And the thing about the Hollywood machine is it’s a big, slow moving machine and your intentions actually don’t matter very much. It was so interesting working with people who have the best intentions in the world and you still look around and most of your crew is white and you’re like, how did this happen? Because that’s where the machine knows how to look. It’s work. It’s actual work.
Ross: It’s actual work. And people, particularly in Hollywood, it’s a big well-oiled machine that’s been working in a certain way. So everybody figures it works. And there’s a lot of spaces in the machine that no one’s opened that door in a really long time, and you’re like, okay, so we need to go downstairs and open that door guys. There’s a weird part of the machine that’s just spilling out the same thing, and we need to go look in that room.
So these Emmys must be the last awards Hamilton can be eligible for, and Black-ish is filming its final season. How do you guys feel saying goodbye to these characters you’ve been living with or associated with for so long?
Diggs: I mean, I haven’t been living with Jefferson and Lafayette, I left them onstage. But other people have lived with them for quite a while, so it’s a bit of a different experience.
Ross: And will continue to, that’s so interesting. I imagine usually when you do a play, not everybody knows you as that.
Diggs: Almost nobody knows you as that, when you do a play. That’s kind of why you do plays.
Ross: Hamilton transcended that little scenario.
Diggs: It did a thing, and a great, wonderful thing that I’m incredibly proud to be a part of. But it is wild to keep revisiting those parts, I feel weird talking about it because I didn’t watch it yesterday and I don’t think about it ever until somebody brings it up. Like I was saying the other day, it’s like you had a kid that grew up or something and now I’m very proud of that kid, like, oh, that’s really cool that they’re off winning awards.
Hamilton would be in first grade by now.
Diggs: It’s won the spelling bee and citizenship award and all that stuff. Very proud of that kid.
Ross: I do have to say though, Daveed, that Hamilton transcended something, but also your portrayal and what you did on stage. There was a reverberation and something that you did with that role, and with that character, that I do think changed the way we see a black actor on stage, in a different way. I think the platform of Hamilton, specifically the role, and then what you did with it, the way you breathe life into it and gave it something, it’s understandable that it is continuing to live on. As an actor, it’s a funny thing, but from the outside looking in and somebody who saw you on stage and saw the TV, you know what I mean? So I do understand the ongoing relationship with that role and what you did with it.
Diggs: That’s the sweetest thing anybody’s ever said to me, and I think that’s what I mean about feeling proud of the thing. Because my only experience with it these days is as a fan of it. It’s just a weird thing as an actor, like you said, but I imagine it must be a much different kind of goodbye to Rainbow. I mean, you’ve lived with her for—
Ross: Eight years, almost nine years when we finish. What’s interesting is, this is my second time letting go of a long-time character. Letting go of Joan [her character on Girlfriends] was really challenging. I was so new to all of it that it just, it honestly felt a little scary, I just didn’t know how to navigate. It felt to me like what I imagined a basketball player retiring, or leaving the team they were on for a long time, because the pace that you keep for a 23 episode series is intense. You are in the water for more time out of the year than you’re out of the water. But the beauty of this is I get to walk into this final season, knowing it’s the final season. And the truth is for eight years, I have been challenged, intrigued, tickled, and annoyed by this woman that I’m playing. All of the above.
And for me it just gets deeper and better every year. I get safer every year and I get to experience a new aspect of my skill, my talent, my thing, the thing I do. On Black-ish, 24 episodes a season, it’s like, how can I really allow this woman to be as full, as free, and as herself as she can be. And that is really fun to use my body and my being as that vehicle, it’s really fun. Particularly working with Anthony, the two of us, the way we fly together, it’s magical. It really is. Even if I don’t talk to him, like I’ve never been to his house, we don’t know each other that way. But what we know in our work relationship is magic.
Diggs: As an observer and a very close up observer too, it is really magic. And I say this about you all the time, too, the way that you fight for Bow is so inspirational. Getting to watch it, it taught me so much.
Ross: Yeah, you got to see some of that for real.
Diggs: Yeah. Watch you on set, really championing for your character, for her integrity, and her humanity, and for her fullness being like, this is a real person, don’t underserve her. I’ve taken that with me to all of my other jobs. I really learned it from you.
Is there anything else you guys want to say to each other?
Ross: I miss you.
Diggs: I miss you too.
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